Pat Robertson: Homosexuality = Demonic Possession

Hate speech

WingnutsMarch 2012 • Views: 22,220

According to Pat Robertson, homosexuality is “related to demonic possession.” Yes, this really is how the religious right thinks.

Youtube Video

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171 comments

prairiefire Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:42:37am

Yes, and it is my understanding that they also contribute things such as rage issues and obesity to different sorts of demons as well.

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:42:48am

Gay demons?

darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:43:45am

re: #2 Obdicut

Gay demons?

They're demonic, but quite festive and fashionably dressed.

erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:44:01am

Thoughtful and nuanced as usual, Pat.

Ass-backwards medieval dipshit.

Mocking Jay Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:44:10am

re: #2 Obdicut

Gay demons?

I guess you've never seen the devil on South Park...

Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:44:31am

Is being an ignorant bigot caused by Demonic Possession?

gummitch Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:46:13am

Who? Ah, him. Is Pat trying to foam his way back to relevance?

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:47:08am

re: #2 Obdicut

Gay demons?

Aren't they supposed to be gay, being evil and all that?

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:47:16am

re: #3 darthstar

Image: infierno.jpg

Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:47:24am

re: #7 gummitch

Who? Ah, him. Is Pat trying to foam his way back to relevance?

I think the 700 club is just doing a recurring series showing the effects of senility over time.

Daniel Ballard Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:47:28am

I'm straight and I don't feel dispossessed at all.

darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:47:57am

re: #9 Obdicut

Image: infierno.jpg

horny bastard

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:52:19am

Who is Pat Robertson?

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:52:37am

Demonic possession! Well, we all know the scientifically proven method for curing that: exorcisms!

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:52:44am

re: #13 NJDhockeyfan

Who is Pat Robertson?

Seriously?

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:53:30am

re: #13 NJDhockeyfan

Who is Pat Robertson?

This guy.

Youtube Video

Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:53:35am

Pat would feel right at home with the commenters over at Fox Nation

Transsexual Booted from Miss Universe

Archie Bunker 1 hour ago

If 'O'bozo had a Son he would look a lot like Jenna.
12 people liked this.
---
hawk1052 1 hour ago

Leave it to a liberal to skrew up everything, Now a meaningless beauty contest is a political forum.
6 people liked this.
---
nomomoney4u 2 hours ago

They became suspicious of her when her chest hair got long
3 people liked this.

ninerfantiminwa 2 hours ago in reply to nomomoney4u

Yeah, but Michelle Obama braids hers... sorry.. couldn't resist
3 people liked this

What charming people.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:53:39am

re: #15 Obdicut

Doubtful. "Why are you talking about him, talk about somebody else".

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:54:03am

re: #1 prairiefire

Yes, and it is my understanding that they also contribute things such as rage issues and obesity to different sorts of demons as well.

There's a very elaborate modern demonology among the suburban fundamentalists who support the media-based mega-churches:

Prepare for War

This is a helpful guide for identifying and getting rid of the demons who control such phenomena as martial arts, rock and roll, frog imagery, and (presumably) Dodge Demons.

The author, Rebecca Brown, is a freelance "therapist" and researcher who has been embroiled in one controversy after another for many years. Quite a few other fundies regard her as crazy. Trained as an MD, she lost her medical license for using woo-woo rather than actual medical practice in treating patients.

Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:54:09am

re: #14 Gus

Demonic possession! Well, we all know the scientifically proven method for curing that: exorcisms!

Trepanning.

darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:54:46am

re: #13 NJDhockeyfan

Who is Pat Robertson?

Former Republican candidate for President. Almost as Reagan as Reagan was.

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:55:00am

re: #15 Obdicut

Seriously?

Of course not. He's irrelevant. Who cares what he thinks?

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:55:24am

re: #17 Kragar

Pat would feel right at home with the commenters over at Fox Nation

Transsexual Booted from Miss Universe

What charming people.

It's amazing. These wingnuts have widened their horizons well beyond there post-911 anti-Islamic resurgence. They hate everybody much in the way that the old bigots of days we once though gone by. It was was always here.

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:55:38am

re: #22 NJDhockeyfan

Of course not. He's irrelevant. Who cares what he thinks?

Why is he irrelevant? He has a lot of power and pull among the religious right in the US.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:56:11am

Apparently Robertson also wants Peyton Manning to be injured to punish the Broncos for trading Tebow. (AKA, the first Christian ever to make it in professional football.)

Not a well man.

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:56:20am

Insignificant!

Image: pat-robertson-mitt-romney-CAMPAIGN.jpg

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:56:26am

re: #21 darthstar

Former Republican candidate for President. Almost as Reagan as Reagan was.

He's not in the same universe near Ronald Reagan. The only people who put up with him for a while was MSNBC.

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:56:56am

Image: 07rudy.600.jpg

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:57:09am

re: #27 NJDhockeyfan

He's not in the same universe near Ronald Reagan. The only people who put up with him for a while was MSNBC.

Um, and Reagan.

Youtube Video

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:57:22am

re: #27 NJDhockeyfan

He's not in the same universe near Ronald Reagan. The only people who put up with him for a while was MSNBC.

Wait. You can't be seriously confusing him with Buchanan.

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:57:48am

re: #29 Obdicut

Um, and Reagan.

[Embedded content]

See #16.

Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:58:20am

re: #22 NJDhockeyfan

Of course not. He's irrelevant. Who cares what he thinks?

According to their stats, over a million viewers in 39 countries.

RadicalModerate Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:58:40am

At one time, there was a widespread belief by Christians that being left-handed was a sign of demonic possession. Great track record there, guys.

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:58:52am

re: #30 'M AFFN FUN

Wait. You can't be seriously confusing him with Buchanan.

Oh shit, maybe I am. Sorry about that. Two peas in a pod.

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:59:35am

re: #34 NJDhockeyfan

Well, not really. Robertson has a lot more pull and power than Buchanan does on the religious right.

Simply Sarah Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:01:09am

re: #17 Kragar

Pat would feel right at home with the commenters over at Fox Nation

Transsexual Booted from Miss Universe

What charming people.

I hate to say it, but considering the kind of stuff I'm used to seeing when trans people are the topic most places, I almost find those comments quaint. I suppose that doesn't reflect well on where my expectations have been set.

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:01:48am

re: #35 Obdicut

Well, not really. Robertson has a lot more pull and power than Buchanan does on the religious right.

I live in the bible belt of Virginia. I've been here for 22 years. I have never met a single person who is a fan or supporter of Robertson. Thank goodness for that.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:02:03am

There doesn't need to be a reason for everything. Sometimes we just point and laugh.

rwmofo Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:02:03am

Left-Wing reporters are livid that "controversial" Dick Cheney got a heart transplant and was not allowed to just die.

Matt Lauer: "Dick Cheney can cause all kinds of controversy if he orders a cup of tea."

Remember when Sarah Palin was ridiculed for suggesting that the media/democrat party were pushing for "Death Panels" if they were allowed to take over our health care? How prophetic. Well, here they are on national TV openly arguing that www.nytimes.com...]>conservatives don't deserve the level of health care that someone like Ted Kennedy would be placed in a VIP line to receive.

The open hatred from these "reporters" no longer surprises me.

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:01am

re: #37 NJDhockeyfan

I live in the bible belt of Virginia. I've been here for 22 years. I have never met a single person who is a fan or supporter of Robertson. Thank goodness for that.

You may have met them, they just may not have told you they're fans of his.

I'm not sure what your point is? Pat Robertson is an influential figure on the religious right, whose endorsement is still sought by GOP leaders.

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:13am

Oh geez.

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:15am

With Jerry Falwell having reached his expiration date and James Dobson pursuing other ventures, Pat is almost the last man standing among the really high-profile first generation political televangelists. He may not have as much direct influence as he used to, but he is very much an elder statesman, perhaps THE elder statesman, of a movement that now controls the Republican party. That is quite relevant.

Simply Sarah Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:33am

re: #33 RadicalModerate

At one time, there was a widespread belief by Christians that being left-handed was a sign of demonic possession. Great track record there, guys.

Hence the term sinister.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:42am

re: #39 rwmofo

Heh. Even assuming for a second the moronic vision of the "death panels", can you tell me how private death panels are better than public ones?

prairiefire Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:52am

re: #19 Shiplord Kirel

I attended a full faith church in the early 80's when this whole mega church, fundie thing was taking off. I just could not believe it. I believe in "spirits of the earth and of the air", but I don't think these folks have any theological tether to the issue.

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:05:08am

re: #39 rwmofo

Left-Wing reporters are livid that "controversial" Dick Cheney got a heart transplant and was not allowed to just die.

Matt Lauer: "Dick Cheney can cause all kinds of controversy if he orders a cup of tea."

Remember when Sarah Palin was ridiculed for suggesting that the media/democrat party were pushing for "Death Panels" if they were allowed to take over our health care? How prophetic. Well, here they are on national TV openly arguing that www.nytimes.com...]>conservatives don't deserve the level of health care that someone like Ted Kennedy would be placed in a VIP line to receive.

The open hatred from these "reporters" no longer surprises me.

They're asking a legitimate question. This is a democracy not a plutocratic dictatorship. Odds are if you're just your average Joe, over the age of 65, you will no get a heart transplant.

RadicalModerate Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:05:44am

Robertson is almost as bad as Buchanan. Not so much with the blatant racism, but he is much worse with his multiple statements supporting violence against those who disagree with his worldview.

Here's a list of just a few:

[Link: politicalhumor.about.com...]

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:05:56am

Corrected that to say average Joe over the age of 65.

Interesting Times Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:06:29am

re: #39 rwmofo

Kindly stuff this down your hypocritical craw:

My grandfather was denied a heart transplant at 67, yet #cheney gets one at 71? No way the system is fair. The #1% score again.
— Deborah Davis (@davisdebs) March 25, 2012

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:07:23am

Death panels are OK as long as it is the invisible hand of the free market that finishes you off. /

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:08:38am

re: #45 prairiefire

I attended a full faith church in the early 80's when this whole mega church, fundie thing was taking off. I just could not believe it. I believe in "spirits of the earth and of the air", but I don't think these folks have any theological tether to the issue.

I have never been to one of those gigantic church. I prefer small ones. We went to Tulsa once for my brother's wedding. The hotel we stayed at was right across the street for a huge mega church. My brother blasted his truck stereo with Andrew Dice Clay for a couple hours in the parking lot one night. I always wondered if they thought Satan was staying at the hotel.

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:08:58am

We'd also have more hearts available if people weren't either a) superstitious dunderheads or b) inconsiderate dick wads. I.e., check off your donor box in your driver's license.

Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:09:30am

re: #49 Interesting Times

Kindly stuff this down your hypocritical craw:

To be fair, Cheney probably had the heart sitting in a jar on his desk all along, so he might as well have used it.

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:10:08am

More than 3,100 Americans are currently on the national waiting list for a heart transplant. Just over 2,300 heart transplants were performed last year, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing. And 330 people died while waiting.

Seriously? In a nation of 300 million people? WTF. That's bullshit.

dragonfire1981 Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:11:02am

re: #33 RadicalModerate

At one time, there was a widespread belief by Christians that being left-handed was a sign of demonic possession. Great track record there, guys.

Well I guess that makes me a true demon spawn. I am left handed as were both my parents.

iossarian Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:11:11am

re: #54 Gus

More than 3,100 Americans are currently on the national waiting list for a heart transplant. Just over 2,300 heart transplants were performed last year, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing. And 330 people died while waiting.

Seriously? In a nation of 300 million people? WTF. That's bullshit.

The key stat is: what percentage of the 300 million ride motorcycles?

Someone Please Beam Me Up! Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:11:29am

re: #43 Simply Sarah

Hence the term sinister.

Well, not exactly. The left direction was "of ill omen" to the Romans (as well as the Greeks), so the Latin word for left became unlucky as well. Long before Christians picked it up, though. (In Classical Greek, they used "of good omen" as a euphemism for left.)

/pedant mode off

Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:11:44am

re: #54 Gus

More than 3,100 Americans are currently on the national waiting list for a heart transplant. Just over 2,300 heart transplants were performed last year, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing. And 330 people died while waiting.

Seriously? In a nation of 300 million people? WTF. That's bullshit.

Donor compatibility, but mostly money.

Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:12:11am

re: #55 dragonfire1981

Well I guess that makes me a true demon spawn. I am left handed as were both my parents.

IMMOLATE THEM!
///

Simply Sarah Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:12:34am

re: #57 One of the Seventeen

Well, not exactly. The left direction was "of ill omen" to the Romans (as well as the Greeks), so the Latin word for left became unlucky as well. Long before Christians picked it up, though. (In Classical Greek, they used "of good omen" as a euphemism for left.)

/pedant mode off

Yes, yes. I'm aware. This is why riding on subways in Europe can give a weird feeling.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:13:00am

re: #55 dragonfire1981

Well I guess that makes me a true demon spawn. I am left handed as were both my parents.

Nah, for that you would have to be red-headed. //

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:16:22am

re: #53 Kragar

To be fair, Cheney probably had the heart sitting in a jar on his desk all along, so he might as well have used it.

I heard he saved it from one of the babies he ate.

dragonfire1981 Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:17:39am

re: #61 'M AFFN FUN

Nah, for that you would have to be red-headed. //

Actually, I AM red headed. Should I be scared yet?

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:20:55am

re: #63 dragonfire1981

Actually, I AM red headed. Should I be scared yet?

DEMON!!!!1/

Someone Please Beam Me Up! Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:22:12am

OT: On NPR, Henry Sokolski just said that if we want to reduce the numbers of nuclear weapons, we need to get everyone into the arms reduction hot tub.

I heard this.

(But aren't all the demons in there already?)

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:23:28am

re: #65 One of the Seventeen

OT: On NPR, Henry Sokolski just said that if we want to reduce the numbers of nuclear weapons, we need to get everyone into the arms reduction hot tub.

Isn't that the smart thing to do?

dragonfire1981 Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:24:42am

re: #65 One of the Seventeen

On NPR, Henry Sokolski just said that if we want to reduce the numbers of nuclear weapons, we need to get everyone into the arms reduction hot tub.

I heard this.

(But aren't all the demons in there already?)

I'm not :p

darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:25:06am

re: #17 Kragar

Pat would feel right at home with the commenters over at Fox Nation

Transsexual Booted from Miss Universe

That's too bad. Miss Universe is all about the image of beauty. Transsexuals spend alot if time trying to achieve that...they should be allowed to compete.

Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:25:26am

re: #66 NJDhockeyfan

Isn't that the smart thing to do?

Should go over well. Everybody looks at America and goes "You go first."

Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:28:41am

Zimmerman Friend: ‘He’s Very Sorry Because In Many Ways, George Has Lost His Life Too’

Except for the unimportant walking around, breathing, and having a future parts.

prairiefire Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:28:47am

OT ~ "Stocks rally nearing multi-year highs"[Link: bottomline.msnbc.msn.com...]

Simply Sarah Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:29:09am

re: #68 darthstar

That's too bad. Miss Universe is all about the image of beauty. Transsexuals spend alot if time trying to achieve that...they should be allowed to compete.

It's far simpler than that. She's a woman and meets all their other eligibility requirements. Therefore there is no reason she should not be allowed to compete.

Sheila Broflovski Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:30:21am

Zedushka, who has been a Climate Change denier, went to the library and brought home Coming Climate Crisis? Consider the Past, Beware the Big Fix by Claire Parkinson.

Has anyone read this book? Dr. Parkinson is a NASA climatologist.

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:30:29am

re: #71 prairiefire

OT ~ "Stocks rally nearing multi-year highs"[Link: bottomline.msnbc.msn.com...]

Great. My 401k might rise out of the toilet it's been in.

erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:31:27am

re: #71 prairiefire

OT ~ "Stocks rally nearing multi-year highs"[Link: bottomline.msnbc.msn.com...]

Goddamned Kenyan atheist-muslim marxist socialist terror-babies.

NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:31:46am

Gotta run...later folks.

Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:32:52am

re: #70 Kragar

Zimmerman Friend: ‘He’s Very Sorry Because In Many Ways, George Has Lost His Life Too’

Except for the unimportant walking around, breathing, and having a future parts.

Wait, you mean getting away with murder isn't all that glamorous? Color me shocked!

darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:33:00am

re: #75 erik_t

Goddamned Kenyan atheist-muslim marxist socialist terror-babies.

When Mitt Romney is president, increases in the stock market and drops in unemployment will be GOOD things.

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:33:41am

[Link: www.details.com...]

Peterson Toscano, a gay Christian activist, underwent three exorcisms before coming to terms with his sexuality. One took place in the Greenpoint section of Brooklyn, another in an apartment on the West Side of Manhattan owned by Joanne Highley, who runs L.I.F.E. Ministry. During the latter exorcism, Highley had him lie down on her bed, then she sat beside him and began to press on his body, commanding the demons to exit through his mouth and rectum. Before the rite was complete, Toscano, who says he felt increasingly violated by Highley's actions, stopped the ritual and left her apartment. Highley did not respond to requests to be interviewed, but she has previously stated that her process is to "cleanse and bind demonic powers . . . out of genitals, of course out of anal canals, out of intestines, out of throats and mouths if there's been ungodly deposit of semen in those areas—we cleanse with the blood of Jesus, and we cast out the demonic powers." Some practitioners of deliverance believe that a demon has a physical as well as a spiritual form and can be purged through the orifices—thus an exorcism can be judged successful if the subject vomits, coughs up sputum, or, in rare cases, evacuates his bowels.

Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:34:27am

re: #70 Kragar

Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun

if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?

Someone Please Beam Me Up! Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:36:04am

re: #73 Learned Mother of Zion

Zedushka, who has been a Climate Change denier, went to the library and brought home Coming Climate Crisis? Consider the Past, Beware the Big Fix by Claire Parkinson.

Has anyone read this book? Dr. Parkinson is a NASA climatologist.

He's going to be disappointed. I haven't read the book either, but I understand it's a critique of some of the proposed solutions, in no way involving denial of the fact of global warming or humans' part in it.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:36:09am

If economy improves, Mitt has nothing but resentment to run on.

Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:36:46am

re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun

if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?

Because if you're walking around at night, and someone drives up, gets out of his car and pulls a gun on you, you must not under any circumstances attempt to protect yourself.
/

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:38:03am

re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun

if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?

Because the police are concerned mainly with legal and criminal matters. They aren't running a Public relations firm. Releasing information on while investigations are ongoing can jeopardize trials.

sagehen Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:38:08am

re: #54 Gus

More than 3,100 Americans are currently on the national waiting list for a heart transplant. Just over 2,300 heart transplants were performed last year, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing. And 330 people died while waiting.

Seriously? In a nation of 300 million people? WTF. That's bullshit.

Of that 2300, slightly over 300 of them were to patients over age 65. So it's not totally unheard of; and he has been on the list for almost two years (much longer than he's had that experimental artificial pulseless heart, so if he hadn't gotten that he'd have died waiting).

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:38:46am

re: #73 Learned Mother of Zion

She's basically a soft denier, but not a total nutbar. She's mostly skeptical about using geoengineering to combat AGW. However, the book also contains what I'd call disinformation, I'm afraid.

iossarian Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:39:09am

re: #83 Kragar

Because if you're walking around at night, and someone drives up, gets out of his car and pulls a gun on you, you must not under any circumstances attempt to protect yourself.
/

What a fucking mess.

The most likely outcome of this story is further reconfirmation that white people can get away with killing black people in the US, but not vice-versa.

Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:39:56am

re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun

if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?

Not only tried for Zimmerman's gun, but socked him in the face and then slammed his head repeatedly against the ground.

Yet, somehow, Martin's the one who ended up on his stomach, with his hands under him, when the fatal shot was fired.

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:40:29am

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Because the police are concerned mainly with legal and criminal matters. They aren't running a Public relations firm. Releasing information on while investigations are ongoing can jeopardize trials.

What investigation was ongoing?

AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:41:00am

re: #70 Kragar

Zimmerman Friend: ‘He’s Very Sorry Because In Many Ways, George Has Lost His Life Too’

Except for the unimportant walking around, breathing, and having a future parts.

Especially as his idea of "life" involved following black kids around the neighborhood with a gun...that part of it is about over for him.

RadicalModerate Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:41:23am

How many times has the account of what happened during the confrontation according to Zimmerman (and Sanford police) changed now? I've lost count.

iossarian Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:41:43am

re: #90 Second Amendment Renegation

Especially as his idea of "life" involved following black kids around the neighborhood with a gun...that part of it is about over for him.

Why? The most likely outcome is that he, and people just like him, will in fact be emboldened to continue doing exactly that.

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:42:19am

re: #89 Obdicut

What investigation was ongoing?

I think the FBI is doing their own investigation and there a grand jury scheduled in a few weeks.

Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:42:44am

re: #91 RadicalModerate

How many times has the account of what happened during the confrontation according to Zimmerman (and Sanford police) changed now? I've lost count.

Supposedly this is the version given initially to the cops, though it now includes the element that Martin confronted him, when previously the narrative was that Martin jumped him as he was returning to his SUV.

darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:43:19am

re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun

if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?

If some asshole was pointing a gun at me I might go for it too. But that doesn't make it self defense. If anything, it indicates Trayvon was acting in self defense.

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:43:24am

re: #88 Targetpractice

It's entirely possible that Martin did go for Zimmerman's gun. If a guy had been following me for blocks and blocks, and then approached me and I saw he had a gun, I might panic and try to grab it too.

This is actually something I've been saying from the start: part of the problem of having people going around armed is that they can interpret any attack on them as a potentially deadly one, because they're carrying around a deadly weapon and if their 'assailant' gets it, they could kill them.

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:44:35am

re: #93 Killgore Trout

I think the FBI is doing their own investigation and there a grand jury scheduled in a few weeks.

But both of those only happened after the outcry. You were talking about the police department. Are you really taking the position that releasing Zimmerman without holding him for questioning was the right move on the part of the police?

erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:45:14am

re: #94 Targetpractice

Supposedly this is the version given initially to the cops, though it now includes the element that Martin confronted him, when previously the narrative was that Martin jumped him as he was returning to his SUV.

Returning to? I thought he hopped out to check the name of the street in his own neighborhood, or some stupid damned thing? The neighborhood that he presumably knew well enough to watch and patrol?

ReamWorks SKG Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:45:52am

It was a stupid decision for Miss Universe. Their television ratings would have been better than usual.

100

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:47:19am

re: #97 Obdicut

But both of those only happened after the outcry. You were talking about the police department. Are you really taking the position that releasing Zimmerman without holding him for questioning was the right move on the part of the police?

They did question him and believed his account. I'm not sure they can legally detain somebody if there's insufficient evidence of a crime.

101

Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:47:59am

re: #96 Obdicut

It's entirely possible that Martin did go for Zimmerman's gun. If a guy had been following me for blocks and blocks, and then approached me and I saw he had a gun, I might panic and try to grab it too.

This is actually something I've been saying from the start: part of the problem of having people going around armed is that they can interpret any attack on them as a potentially deadly one, because they're carrying around a deadly weapon and if their 'assailant' gets it, they could kill them.

Oh, I don't doubt it plausible that he went for the gun, in a panic to avoid getting shot. Then again, if Zimmerman was brandishing it in the first place, then he knowing escalated the situation by presenting the threat of being shot to Trayvon.

Of course, this is still only one half of the story, with the other half being a might difficult to obtain due to a terminal case of death.

102

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:48:05am

re: #100 Killgore Trout

They did question him and believed his account. I'm not sure they can legally detain somebody if there's insufficient evidence of a crime.

Heh. Um, yes, they can. They can hold anyone for up to 48, or, in some states, 72 hours. It's absolutely standard procedure.

Maybe you should do a little research?

103

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:49:16am

re: #101 Targetpractice

Oh, I don't doubt it plausible that he went for the gun, in a panic to avoid getting shot. Then again, if Zimmerman was brandishing it in the first place, then he knowing escalated the situation by presenting the threat of being shot to Trayvon.

Of course, this is still only one half of the story, with the other half being a might difficult to obtain due to a terminal case of death.

I haven't seen any reports he was brandishing. The witnesses to the fight made no mention of seeing a gun.

104

erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:49:30am

re: #100 Killgore Trout

They did question him and believed his account. I'm not sure they can legally detain somebody if there's insufficient evidence of a crime.

Dead body is pretty substantial probable cause.

105

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:50:02am

re: #103 Killgore Trout

I haven't seen any reports he was brandishing. The witnesses to the fight made no mention of seeing a gun.

Are you saying there was a witness who saw the beginning of the fight, Killgore?

106

erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:50:35am

re: #103 Killgore Trout

I haven't seen any reports he was brandishing. The witnesses to the fight made no mention of seeing a gun.

Presumably he fired it from within his Cloak of +3 Disguising, then?

This is inane.

107

iossarian Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:50:48am

re: #102 Obdicut

Heh. Um, yes, they can. They can hold anyone for up to 48, or, in some states, 72 hours. It's absolutely standard procedure.

Maybe you should do a little research?

I've forgotten. Is it better to have speech out in the open, where everyone can say what they think, even if they haven't done any research?

Or is it better for people to do conscientious research before adding to the conversation, so they don't muddy the waters?

Or is it just, say whatever is the opposite of what "lefties" are saying, and hope that it makes some kind of sense?

It's so confusing.

108

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:50:53am

re: #88 Targetpractice

Not only tried for Zimmerman's gun, but socked him in the face and then slammed his head repeatedly against the ground.

Yet, somehow, Martin's the one who ended up on his stomach, with his hands under him, when the fatal shot was fired.

If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and Zimmerman fired the shot, then after GZ was getting up, he would have necessarily moved the body, which could end up in either position.

109

ReamWorks SKG Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:51:44am

"This is actually something I've been saying from the start: part of the problem of having people going around armed is that they can interpret any attack on them as a potentially deadly one, because they're carrying around a deadly weapon and if their 'assailant' gets it, they could kill them."

This has been my thinking, too. "Stand Your Ground" only makes sense when someone has entered your home. It makes no sense out in public except in very special circumstances. And, for any shooting out in public, it's only reasonable for there not to be a complete investigation, even for a SYG shooting, so we can be sure that the two didn't know each other (for example) and that all the facts are known.

Even if Trayvon Martin had been attacking George Zimmerman, the fact is that he was only attacking him because he was being chased. Martin may have thought that this was simply an ordinary street brawl, and not some wanna-be cop looking for someone to harass.

110

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:51:56am

re: #103 Killgore Trout

I haven't seen any reports he was brandishing. The witnesses to the fight made no mention of seeing a gun.

So if the witness didn't see a gun then who shot Trayvon? That really doesn't make much sense. The witness may have not mentioned a gun but it's obvious that a gun was central to this case. Just because the witness didn't see any "brandishing" does not negate that possibility.

111

Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:53:33am

re: #108 'M AFFN FUN

If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and Zimmerman fired the shot, then after GZ was getting up, he would have necessarily moved the body, which could end up in either position.

According to eyewitnesses, when the whole altercation ended, it was Zimmerman straddling Martin, who was on his stomach with his hands under him.

But we'd know more if a corner's report was ever released, but considering that you'd need a crowbar to get anything of such value out of the hands of the SPD, I'm not holding my breath.

112

RadicalModerate Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:54:34am

Just a thought on the double-standards involved here. If, for some reason Zimmerman had ended up being killed during the confrontation, do any of you believe - even for a second - that Trayvon Martin would not be in jail at this very moment charged with murder?

113

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:54:38am

re: #100 Killgore Trout

They did question him and believed his account. I'm not sure they can legally detain somebody if there's insufficient evidence of a crime.

Normally they would detain him, test him and see of there is a probable cause or not in a calm situation and without possibility of destruction of evidence. Under the SYG law they couldn't arrest or detain him as a suspect without first establishing a probable cause. Which only makes the police work harder and the results more uncertain.

114

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:56:31am

So basically we have Zimmerman's word against a dead young man. Doesn't seem very fair to me at all. Not one bit.

115

Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:57:17am

re: #114 Gus

So basically we have Zimmerman's word against a dead young man. Doesn't seem very fair to me at all. Not one bit.

Come on, Gus, don't you feel his bad? His life's ended now, this case has totally destroyed it! Can't you feel some sympathy for him?!

///^nth

116

AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:57:29am

re: #114 Gus

So basically we have Zimmerman's word against a dead young man. Doesn't seem very fair to me at all. Not one bit.

this is the sort of law that encourages one not to leave any living witnesses to contradict your testimony...

117

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:58:06am

re: #113 'M AFFN FUN

They can't charge him without reasonable proof of the crime, but they certainly could have arrested and held him without proof of a particular crime, yes.

118

iossarian Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:58:45am

re: #112 RadicalModerate

Just a thought on the double-standards involved here. If, for some reason Zimmerman had ended up being killed during the confrontation, do any of you believe - even for a second - that Trayvon Martin would not be in jail at this very moment charged with murder?

This, for me, is what the story is all about. The legal development of the case will be whatever it is, but it won't really change the overall story:

- white guy kills black kid, OK
- black kid kills white man (or, heaven forbid, woman), not OK.

119

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:59:06am

re: #105 Obdicut

Are you saying there was a witness who saw the beginning of the fight, Killgore?

I haven't seen any reports of witnesses seeing the start of the fight but none of the reports of seeing the fight ongoing reported a gun as far as I know. Do we know if he was concealed or open carrying?

120

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:59:08am

re: #115 Targetpractice

Come on, Gus, don't you feel his bad? His life's ended now, this case has totally destroyed it! Can't you feel some sympathy for him?!

///^nth

I am concerned that the media is doing a shitty job on the story and really don't want to see Zimmerman railroaded for political expediency.

121

Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:59:49am

re: #116 Second Amendment Renegation

this is the sort of law that encourages one not to leave any living witnesses to contradict your testimony...

Really, what I see the law doing is encouraging recklessness, encouraging Dirty Harry wannabes like Zimmerman to take the risk of confronting "suspicious persons," because he knows that if things go south and he's on the losing side of the fight, he can shoot to kill without worrying that he'll face the consequences.

122

goddamnedfrank Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:59:59am

re: #113 'M AFFN FUN

Under the SYG law they couldn't arrest or detain him as a suspect without first establishing a probable cause.

Not true. They chose not to arrest him, nothing in the law forced that decision. SYG is to be interpreted by judges, as a way of dismissing charges after they've been brought. Police can detain without charging for 48 hours, seek material witness warrants to detain longer, and file charges pending judicial review under the law. In this case the police may have looked at the prior number of cases that had been dismissed, but there was nothing under or about SYG that should have altered the investigation. Even under SYG what they did was misconduct.

123

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:01:00pm

re: #110 Gus

So if the witness didn't see a gun then who shot Trayvon? That really doesn't make much sense. The witness may have not mentioned a gun but it's obvious that a gun was central to this case. Just because the witness didn't see any "brandishing" does not negate that possibility.

if he was brandishing then it's more likely the witnesses would have seen the gun.

124

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:01:18pm

re: #111 Targetpractice

According to eyewitnesses, when the whole altercation ended, it was Zimmerman straddling Martin, who was on his stomach with his hands under him.

But we'd know more if a corner's report was ever released, but considering that you'd need a crowbar to get anything of such value out of the hands of the SPD, I'm not holding my breath.

Yes, and another witness says that "The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911". So the witnesses you mention describe the last phase of the situation, after the gunshot (they don't claim to have seen the whole fight), while this witness describes the situation before the gunshot. There's no contradiction, at least between these accounts.

125

Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:01:55pm

re: #118 iossarian

This, for me, is what the story is all about. The legal development of the case will be whatever it is, but it won't really change the overall story:

- white guy kills black kid, OK
- black kid kills white man (or, heaven forbid, woman), not OK.

There's a story in Tampa of a black man killing a white man during a scuffle involving a gun. And, horror of horrors, he's been arrested and is awaiting a verdict on whether he'll stand trial or not.

126

blueraven Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:02:11pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

Because the police are concerned mainly with legal and criminal matters. They aren't running a Public relations firm. Releasing information on while investigations are ongoing can jeopardize trials.

What investigation? They detained and released Zimmerman the same night. No matter what happened, he should have been arrested and the evidence turned over the the prosecutors office.

A similar case in Florida, where there was a scuffle in a park; one man had a gun and killed the man trying to take it away. The man with the gun was a black man, the other a white vet. The man was arrested and is now on trial.

Normally, you are not allowed to kill someone, claim it was self defense and just walk.

127

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:02:18pm

re: #123 Killgore Trout

if he was brandishing then it's more likely the witnesses would have seen the gun.

But nobody saw any gun period did they? No one saw the actual shooting either.

128

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:03:07pm

re: #127 Gus

But nobody saw any gun period did they? No one saw the actual shooting either.

Not that I know of.

129

AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:03:52pm

re: #118 iossarian

This, for me, is what the story is all about. The legal development of the case will be whatever it is, but it won't really change the overall story:

- white guy kills black kid, OK
- black kid kills white man (or, heaven forbid, woman), not OK.

It also has a lot to do with the wqay the local PD handled it, which I suspect would have been entirely differently had a black person claimed he was standing his ground.

130

AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:04:46pm

re: #120 Gus

I am concerned that the media is doing a shitty job on the story and really don't want to see Zimmerman railroaded for political expediency.

//

Or, even worse, a Zimmermann falling victim to vigilante justice and becoming a martyr.

131

goddamnedfrank Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:05:58pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

I haven't seen any reports of witnesses seeing the start of the fight but none of the reports of seeing the fight ongoing reported a gun as far as I know. Do we know if he was concealed or open carrying?

Concealed. The cop pulled Zimmerman's gun from an in the waistband holster after handcuffing him. Zimmerman was wearing a sweater that night, and had a CCW permit. In order for Martin to know the gun was there either he would have had to have felt it during the scuffle or Zimmerman had to have brandished it.

132

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:08:15pm

re: #100 Killgore Trout

They did question him and believed his account. I'm not sure they can legally detain somebody if there's insufficient evidence of a crime.

Which account did they believe? This "he went for my gun" angle is at least the third version of events that "police say" he told them.

Also, why are police commenting on an ongoing investigation?

133

Eventual Carrion Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:08:23pm

re: #103 Killgore Trout

I haven't seen any reports he was brandishing. The witnesses to the fight made no mention of seeing a gun.

So he wasn't brandishing it, but Martin was going for it. Kid have X-ray vision?

134

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:09:24pm

re: #122 goddamnedfrank

Not true. They chose not to arrest him, nothing in the law forced that decision. SYG is to be interpreted by judges, as a way of dismissing charges after they've been brought. Police can detain without charging for 48 hours, seek material witness warrants to detain longer, and file charges pending judicial review under the law. In this case the police may have looked at the prior number of cases that had been dismissed, but there was nothing under or about SYG that should have altered the investigation. Even under SYG what they did was misconduct.

Here's the relevant part:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

(3) provides for redress in case of a "wrongful" criminal prosecution, but (1) expressly forbids criminal prosecution (including arrest and detention) without probable cause. How is that to be decided by the judge? Isn't this a direct prohibition?

135

Daniel Ballard Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:09:51pm

re: #96 Obdicut
I have one question about self defense and an obligation to flee. How high is that burden of proof of that? How might one prove he tried to flee?

Is that any clearer in a case with fragmentary evidence?

Frankly I'm think a proportion of force used to defend seems like a better way to go. Gun vs smaller kid? Now there is a good clue.

136

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:10:10pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

I haven't seen any reports of witnesses seeing the start of the fight but none of the reports of seeing the fight ongoing reported a gun as far as I know. Do we know if he was concealed or open carrying?

So we have no information on whether or not he was brandishing the gun, since no one saw the start of it.

137

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:10:16pm

re: #131 goddamnedfrank

Concealed. The cop pulled Zimmerman's gun from an in the waistband holster after handcuffing him. Zimmerman was wearing a sweater that night, and had a CCW permit. In order for Martin to know the gun was there either he would have had to have felt it during the scuffle or Zimmerman had to have brandished it.

Ok, that makes sense. If the account of the scuffle is accurate how does that effect the brandishing claim? If zimmerman had his weapon drawn would he let Trayvon get close enough to punch him in the face? Would he go directly for the gun instead of punching him and bashing his head into the sidewalk? If the gun was already out I would think the fight would have been two guys rolling around trying to wrestle control of the weapon.

138

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:11:20pm

re: #135 Daniel Ballard

I have one question about self defense and an obligation to flee. How high is that burden of proof of that? How might one prove he tried to flee?

You don't have to prove that you tried to flee. You have to assert it, and to prosecute you, the state would have to disprove it.

Frankly I'm think a proportion of force used to defend seems like a better way to go. Gun vs smaller kid? Now there is a good clue.

It's not an either/or proposition, though.

139

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:12:39pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

Ok, that makes sense. If the account of the scuffle is accurate how does that effect the brandishing claim?

Nobody is claiming that he brandished it. He may have. Nobody is saying that he did.

140

Our Precious Bodily Fluids Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:13:19pm

Note that the internet is basically acting as a giant, free focus group for whatever bullshit Zimmerman's "advisors" might want to float. If they wanted to float some bullshit, that is. You know. Like, in the event.

141

Daniel Ballard Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:15:49pm

re: #138 Obdicut

You don't have to prove that you tried to flee. You have to assert it, and to prosecute you, the state would have to disprove it.

It's not an either/or proposition, though.

It can be for a lawmaker on a public safety committee. And we have many states that do have an obligation to try to retreat. How that standard is constructed is worth understanding. As in how to construct or change existing laws.

So you are saying a mere assertion will do pending contrary evidence?

142

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:17:19pm

By the way, Killgore, police release information while investigations are ongoing all the time. You've probably seen quite a few news conferences with cops where they do it.

143

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:17:52pm

re: #142 Obdicut

Yes, and in fact SPD had such a QA conference.

144

allegro Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:18:27pm

re: #134 'M AFFN FUN

Here's the relevant part:

(3) provides for redress in case of a "wrongful" criminal prosecution, but (1) expressly forbids criminal prosecution (including arrest and detention) without probable cause. How is that to be decided by the judge? Isn't this a direct prohibition?

How much more probable cause do the police need than a dead, unarmed kid?

145

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:19:18pm

re: #141 Daniel Ballard

It can be for a lawmaker on a public safety committee. And we have many states that do have an obligation to try to retreat. How that standard is constructed is worth understanding. As in how to construct or change existing laws.

So you are saying a mere assertion will do pending contrary evidence?

I'm not sure about other Fla laws but the stand your ground law makes a point of stating that the burden of proof for self defense stays on the prosecution. The gun owner has no obligation to prove they were acting in self defense, the state has to disprove it.

146

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:19:20pm

re: #141 Daniel Ballard

It can be for a lawmaker on a public safety committee.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. He might think it's either/or, but it's not.

So you are saying a mere assertion will do pending contrary evidence?

Yes, that's right. You say "I tried to get away, but there was nowhere to go," or "I tried to run down the street, but he caught up to me".

And if the state can show you're lying about that, then they disprove that you tried to flee.

I'm not sure what you're asking-- do you think people have to somehow collect evidence themselves that shows they tried to flee?

147

erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:19:35pm

re: #144 allegro

How much more probably cause do the police need than a dead, unarmed kid?

It would help if he looked more ~~white~~ innocent.

148

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:20:09pm

re: #142 Obdicut

By the way, Killgore, police release information while investigations are ongoing all the time. You've probably seen quite a few news conferences with cops where they do it.

They do, and they did in this case too. But they are careful about what they say.

149

Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:22:30pm

Yeah. I'm going to take the Zimmerman camp seriously. Especially after one of his buddies deemed that he said "fucking goons" as a term of endearment. And how the story seems to change ever so slightly. Zimmerman went in pursuit of Martin. There's no two ways around that. Whatever happened afterwards is because Zimmerman was the provoking factor.

150

blueraven Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:23:18pm

re: #144 allegro

How much more probably cause do the police need than a dead, unarmed kid?

And why did this Florida black man get arrested and is on trial under somewhat similar circumstances. Because he was black? Selective enforcement...what?

[Link: thelede.blogs.nytimes.com...]

151

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:23:29pm

re: #144 allegro

How much more probably cause do the police need than a dead, unarmed kid?

That's my point. The law doesn't see a mere dead body - even an unarmed dead body - as evidence of wrongdoing as long as there is a plausible story explaining it, that's exactly why the law was written. What would be the point of this section otherwise?

152

Daniel Ballard Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:23:30pm

re: #146 Obdicut

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. He might think it's either/or, but it's not.

I refer to the language a lawmaker might choose to go with to shape a states self defense laws. He might go with a standard that requires retreat, or he might leave that and go with a standard that first considers the amount of force or the disparity of force. That is a factor here in California for instance. Using a gun to resist an "attack with fists" is specifically forbidden.

153

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:24:21pm

re: #148 Killgore Trout

They do, and they did in this case too. But they are careful about what they say.

They're careful not to say negative personal things, but there isn't any restriction about them talking about what they believe occurred. In fact, it's one of the duties of the cops to keep the public so informed.

154

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:25:09pm

re: #152 Daniel Ballard

I refer to the language a lawmaker might choose to go with to shape a states self defense laws. He might go with a standard that requires retreat, or he might leave that and go with a standard that first considers the amount of force or the disparity of force.

He might, but he'd be dumb, since he can consider both.

That is a factor here in California for instance. Using a gun to resist an "attack with fists" is specifically forbidden.

And there is also a duty to retreat-- so, clearly, both can be considered at once.

155

blueraven Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:25:23pm

re: #151 'M AFFN FUN

That's my point. The law doesn't see a mere dead body - even an unarmed dead body - as evidence of wrongdoing as long as there is a plausible story explaining it, that's exactly why the law was written. What would be the point of this section otherwise?

See #150

It appears they do sometime

156

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:28:05pm

re: #155 blueraven

See #150

It appears they do sometime

It is also obvious that would have happened to TM if the roles were reversed in GZ/TM situation. This doesn't change the fact that the law is a harmful POS.

157

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:33:24pm

re: #134 'M AFFN FUN

They could have arrested him on other charges, though. Cops do that all the time, especially while they're trying to figure out what the hell happened. But you're right the law is even worse than I already thought it was. Fucking hell, what a terrible law.

158

Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:36:48pm

One of the key parts with Zimmerman is if they actually got a real deposition from him or not.

159

blueraven Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:43:06pm

re: #156 'M AFFN FUN

It is also obvious that would have happened to TM if the roles were reversed in GZ/TM situation. This doesn't change the fact that the law is a harmful POS.

No doubt about that!

160

AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:53:16pm

re: #156 'M AFFN FUN

It is also obvious that would have happened to TM if the roles were reversed in GZ/TM situation. This doesn't change the fact that the law is a harmful POS.

And that is the crux of it. Between the working of the law and the negligent-to-complicit actions of the local PD, there is almost no chance of obtaining a conviction against Zimmermann.

The only positive thing i see coming out of this is that other states will be hesitant or unlikely to adopt similar laws.

161

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:54:13pm

re: #160 Second Amendment Renegation

Optimist.

162

AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:13:29pm

re: #161 'M AFFN FUN

Optimist.

re: #161 'M AFFN FUN

Optimist.

you don't wanna hear my worst-case scenario, then...

163

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:34:26pm

re: #34 NJDhockeyfan

Oh shit, maybe I am. Sorry about that. Two peas in a pod.

Similarly asshattish, but Robertson is more religion, and Buchanan is more fascism. And Robertson does better from it.

164

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:37:04pm

re: #39 rwmofo

Left-Wing reporters are livid that "controversial" Dick Cheney got a heart transplant and was not allowed to just die.

Matt Lauer: "Dick Cheney can cause all kinds of controversy if he orders a cup of tea."

Remember when Sarah Palin was ridiculed for suggesting that the media/democrat party were pushing for "Death Panels" if they were allowed to take over our health care? How prophetic. Well, here they are on national TV openly arguing that www.nytimes.com...]>conservatives don't deserve the level of health care that someone like Ted Kennedy would be placed in a VIP line to receive.

The open hatred from these "reporters" no longer surprises me.

Uh, quick question, DID CHENEY GET HIS NEW HEART?

Yes, as would Ted Kennedy, because they are/were both rich.

Cheney's fine.

An insurance company would let a poorer man die for want of one, but it would not be called a death panel, just a business decision, or a medical ethics one, if they wanted to be fancy.

Shut up whining, already.

165

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:39:45pm

re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun

if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?

Because the case was mishandled. But I'm not surprised he tried to get the gun. It's what I would have done, if I couldn't keep running.

166

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:39:57pm

re: #83 Kragar

Because if you're walking around at night, and someone drives up, gets out of his car and pulls a gun on you, you must not under any circumstances attempt to protect yourself.
/

That would be wrong.

167

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:41:23pm

re: #109 ReamWorks

This has been my thinking, too. "Stand Your Ground" only makes sense when someone has entered your home. It makes no sense out in public except in very special circumstances. And, for any shooting out in public, it's only reasonable for there not to be a complete investigation, even for a SYG shooting, so we can be sure that the two didn't know each other (for example) and that all the facts are known.

Even if Trayvon Martin had been attacking George Zimmerman, the fact is that he was only attacking him because he was being chased. Martin may have thought that this was simply an ordinary street brawl, and not some wanna-be cop looking for someone to harass.

Extending castle doctrine outside of the castle just doesn't make good social sense.

168

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:42:03pm

re: #112 RadicalModerate

Just a thought on the double-standards involved here. If, for some reason Zimmerman had ended up being killed during the confrontation, do any of you believe - even for a second - that Trayvon Martin would not be in jail at this very moment charged with murder?

No. Martin would have been arrested. I have no doubt, none whatsoever.

169

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:05:46pm

re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun

if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?

The cops were too busy writing the script

you know, fixing it around the narrative?

there's a reason they're called names, after all

I wonder why!

170

labman57 Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:15:22pm

Pat needs to smoke a doobie and take a long nap.

171

Kronocide Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:34:36pm

re: #39 rwmofo

Right Wing Talking Point fucktard sez whut?

Spy Mode Auto

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