3 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:15:47pm |
4 | Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:16:46pm |
re: #3 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Still reading the article about intelligence.
There is a joke in there somewhere.
what article?
5 | engineer cat Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:17:25pm |
i've been practising my hepcat playlist
these foolish things
please keep me in your dreams
never swat a fly
any bonds today
i first got my love of swing from that underappreciated master of hep crooning, bugs bunny, who does a great job on the last tune listed
6 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:18:19pm |
re: #4 ggt
Oh, I gave the link about it in some thread - the last one or the one before that. PDF: [Link: scottbarrykaufman.com...] Basically talks about what we know about intelligence, influence of genes and environment, etc.
7 | Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:21:29pm |
re: #6 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Oh, I gave the link about it in some thread - the last one or the one before that. PDF: [Link: scottbarrykaufman.com...] Basically talks about what we know about intelligence, influence of genes and environment, etc.
I read an article the other day about pre-school education. It seems it only benefits the lower socio-economic kids. More affluent kids get lots of stimulation and don't need the added stimuation of pre-school.
And the benefits are ginormus. We really need to keep funding Head Start and such programs.
I'm from the Montessori school of thinking. Every child is gifted, we just need to provide the environment for them to grow as they were intended by the Flying Spaghetti Monster to grow.
8 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:23:18pm |
re: #7 ggt
Pretty much.
10 | Gus Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:26:07pm |
It's odd you know. That a country that was founded by immigrants. Many of who escaped religious or ethnic persecution. That required the invasion of a land which was already populated with a culture of people. Many of whom were killed in the wars against the Indians. A nation of different languages, religions, ethnicities and races. A nation that brought slaves from Africa who literally built most our infrastructure along with the Chinese in the West. That that same nation is now populated with people demanding that we retain an "American identity" that never really existed and fear the others that now come to our shores.
12 | Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:32:06pm |
re: #10 Gus
It's odd you know. That a country that was founded by immigrants. Many of who escaped religious or ethnic persecution. That required the invasion of a land which was already populated with a culture of people. Many of whom were killed in the wars against the Indians. A nation of different languages, religions, ethnicities and races. A nation that brought slaves from Africa who literally built most our infrastructure along with the Chinese in the West. That that same nation is now populated with people demanding that we retain an "American identity" that never really existed and fear the others that now come to our shores.
B,b,but WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!
/
I don't know how to do the purple stuff.
13 | Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:34:20pm |
14 | AK-47% Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:34:52pm |
re: #12 ggt
B,b,but WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!
/
I don't know how to do the purple stuff.
[ wingnut ] insert rant [ /wingnut ]
remove spaces and you get
RW talking point
15 | Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:36:55pm |
re: #14 Expand Your Ground
[ wingnut ] insert rant [ /wingnut ]
remove spaces and you get
very kool!
16 | Digital Display Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:37:31pm |
You know what this video is missing? James Earl Jones narrating some new age poetry shit over the music...
Stars..Night..Our world..Built it Ray..
17 | Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:38:01pm |
re: #16 HoosierHoops
You know what this video is missing? James Earl Jones narrating some new age poetry shit over the music...
Stars..Night..Our world..Built it Ray..
nah
18 | Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:38:45pm |
I'm off to bed.
You can now return to your regularly scheduled late-night thread.
Have a good one all!
19 | Gus Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:39:05pm |
re: #12 ggt
B,b,but WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION!
/
I don't know how to do the purple stuff.
That's OK. Seriously. It's kind of absurd. This country was first divided into basic block of England, France, Spain, and Indians. Indians themselves were also divided into separate nations. The dominant power was of course British. Along with that were the Africans slaves and the Chinese workers. Then the various European and Asian immigrants that came here over time. All with different languages and cultures.
20 | AK-47% Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:45:35pm |
It is also a founding myth that the Pilgrims came over here to enjoy freedom from religious persecution.
They came over in order to be free to practice their own form of religious persecution without outside interference.
21 | Digital Display Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:47:09pm |
re: #16 HoosierHoops
You know what this video is missing? James Earl Jones narrating some new age poetry shit over the music...
Stars..Night..Our world..Built it Ray..
No? OK how about in the video he has a UFO fly across the sky? Talk about going viral..and not just any UFO..One that has a dog tied to the top..
22 | AK-47% Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:48:14pm |
Wild, wild West:
"There is a very thin line between communism, progressivism, Marxism, Socialism ... it's about nationalizing production, it's about creating and expanding the welfare state. It's about this idea of social and economic justice," said the retired military officer.
In other words "I don't really understand any of them, but I know they are bad because they are different from my ideas".
23 | ProGunLiberal Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:50:02pm |
I'm doing I will regret in about, oh, 4 minutes?
24 | Gus Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:50:28pm |
Meet the new editor for National Review Online. A fitting spokesman for nativists and the "heritage population." # twitpic.com/9b5kms
— Gus (@Gus_802) April 18, 2012
25 | ProGunLiberal Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:51:28pm |
re: #23 ProGunLiberal
Actually, it was about 51 seconds.
26 | Digital Display Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:51:37pm |
27 | ProGunLiberal Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:54:19pm |
re: #26 HoosierHoops
About 20-25 of my FB friends have been gushing about some band from Britain called One Direction. Well, when listening to a TSwift song, I saw something from them in the sidebar (Vevo will link to other artists), so I decided to click and see what they sound like.
I have an exceedingly good memory. One Direction is the 1990's Boy Bands all over again.
I was listening to this song, when I saw that in the sidebar.
28 | AK-47% Tue, Apr 17, 2012 11:59:47pm |
Thanks for filling us in on what my kids will be listening to in coming weeks.
29 | ProGunLiberal Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:01:23am |
re: #28 Expand Your Ground
You're welcome. I expect some sort of compensation the martyrdom of my ears.
30 | Digital Display Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:02:27am |
re: #27 ProGunLiberal
About 20-25 of my FB friends have been gushing about some band from Britain called One Direction. Well, when listening to a TSwift song, I saw something from them in the sidebar (Vevo will link to other artists), so I decided to click and see what they sound like.
I have an exceedingly good memory. One Direction is the 1990's Boy Bands all over again.
I was listening to this song, when I saw that in the sidebar.
[Embedded content]
I don't listen to her much..I've heard her hits..I'll say this..She is an extremely talented young Lady.. not just a pretty face.
31 | ProGunLiberal Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:04:54am |
re: #30 HoosierHoops
Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of One Direction.
I shall spare you all the Boy Band Garbage, and not link to it.
32 | ProGunLiberal Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:07:27am |
re: #29 ProGunLiberal
You're welcome. I expect some sort of compensation for the martyrdom of my ears that has occurred.
That makes more sense.
33 | Digital Display Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:08:17am |
re: #31 ProGunLiberal
Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of One Direction.
I shall spare you all the Boy Band Garbage, and not link to it.
check this out.. listen to the words
34 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:09:31am |
Interesting, kind of self-fulfilling prophecy:
Our understanding of group differences in intellectual ability
is furthered by the very large literature on psychological
reactions to negative stereotypes. Steele and Aronson
(1995) argued that when test takers are aware of widespread
stereotypes that impugn a group’s intelligence (e.g.,
“Black people are stupid,” “Girls can’t do math”), they
frequently experience the threat of devaluation—by the
self, by others, or by both. The resulting arousal and
anxiety can impair executive functioning on complex tasks
such as standardized aptitude tests. Steele and Aronson
called this response stereotype threat and demonstrated in
a series of experiments that Black test takers scored considerably
better—sometimes far better—on intellectual
tests when the test was presented in a manner that downplayed
ability evaluation or downplayed the relevance of
race. Since the publication of Steele and Aronson’s 1995
article, some 200 replications of the effect have been published,
extending the findings to women and mathematics
abilities, Latinos and verbal abilities, elderly individuals
and short-term memory abilities, low-income students and
verbal abilities, and a number of nonacademic domains as
well. See Steele, Spencer, and Aronson (2002) and Aronson
and McGlone (2009) for reviews of the literature.
Two recent meta-analyses reported by Walton and
Spencer (2009) that included the data from nearly 19,000
students indicate that stereotype threat can cause tests to
underestimate the true abilities of students likely to experience
stereotype threat (Walton & Spencer, 2009). Walton
and Spencer’s analysis suggests a conservative estimate
that women’s math performance and Black students’ verbal
performance are suppressed by about 0.2 SD. In a number
of the individual studies, however, the suppression was
closer to a full standard deviation.
The stereotype threat formulation has led to a variety
of simple educational interventions conducted in schools
and colleges that have substantially raised the achievement
of Black students (e.g., Aronson, Fried, & Good, 2002;
G. L. Cohen, Garcia, Apfel, & Master, 2006) and the
achievement of girls in mathematics (Blackwell, Trzesniewski,
& Dweck, 2007; Good, Aronson, & Inzlicht, 2003).
The studies suggest that stereotype threat suppresses realworld
intellectual achievements. Some of the interventions
seem remarkably minor on the surface yet produce substantial
gains in academic achievement. For example, simple
efforts at persuading minority students that their intelligence
is under their control to a substantial extent have
nontrivial effects on academic performance (Aronson et al.,
2002; Blackwell et al., 2007).
35 | ProGunLiberal Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:11:19am |
re: #33 HoosierHoops
Good band. I remember them, and have some of their songs on my MP3.
Jezebel has something on One Direction:
One Direction Nearly Had a Boy Band Rumble with The Wanted
I feel like I just fell into a time warp. Back to the late 90's.
36 | Digital Display Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:15:58am |
re: #35 ProGunLiberal
Good band. I remember them, and have some of their songs on my MP3.
Jezebel has something on One Direction:
One Direction Nearly Had a Boy Band Rumble with The Wanted
I feel like I just fell into a time warp. Back to the late 90's.
I'd love to come to your graduation
37 | ProGunLiberal Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:25:24am |
re: #36 HoosierHoops
Give me a second on that, that just seems a bit weird, seeing as I haven't met you yet.
38 | Digital Display Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:29:33am |
re: #37 ProGunLiberal
Give me a second on that, that just seems a bit weird, seeing as I haven't met you yet.
Not to worry... I was just going to watch ( 4 blocks away)..Not meet you..This is a time for family and friends..
Congrads!
39 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:09:02am |
re: #10 Gus
It's odd you know. That a country that was founded by immigrants. Many of who escaped religious or ethnic persecution. That required the invasion of a land which was already populated with a culture of people. Many of whom were killed in the wars against the Indians. A nation of different languages, religions, ethnicities and races. A nation that brought slaves from Africa who literally built most our infrastructure along with the Chinese in the West. That that same nation is now populated with people demanding that we retain an "American identity" that never really existed and fear the others that now come to our shores.
There's been a bloc of conservatives demanding retention of an "identity" for the entire time of European occupation of this continent. Just read history and you get the Hudson Valley Dutch complaining about the immigrant Germans and Irish. The same with the Know Nothings a hundred years later. And so on.
40 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:09:49am |
re: #34 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Heh. I remember OhCrap for some reason taking amazing offense when I referenced that phenomenon.
It seems pretty uncontroversial to me. Expectations have an effect on performance.
44 | freetoken Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:24:00am |
One of my favorite pop tunes, especially since it's not written in boring 4/4 like nearly all pop tunes:
45 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:25:40am |
Morning All. Another graveyard shift day in a warm (and not yet sunny) Philadelphia.
Noisy about the past few afternoons as the city is jackhammering out and replacing sections of sidewalk in the area. Replacing corners with new access ramps that include pads of non-skid material. And a few of these sections have needed replacement since I moved out here five years ago.
Back to work with first cup of coffee to drink.
46 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:25:46am |
re: #40 Obdicut
Many people tend to react strongly to anything that has "IQ" and "race" within 10 meters of each other. Understandable, given history, but logically fallacious. Conclusions should not be predetermined, but rather should follow from evidence (the cautionary example is the right vis a vis AGW).
47 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:29:09am |
re: #46 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Many people tend to react strongly to anything that has "IQ" and "race" within 10 meters of each other. Understandable, given history, but logically fallacious. Conclusions should not be predetermined, but rather should follow from evidence (the cautionary example is the right vis a vis AGW).
Written IQ tests can give us insight into certain aspects of intelligence, and even how they relate to race.
But to come to the conclusion that "relative scores on written IQ test = relative intelligence" requires a major leap of faith based on a predermined conclusion that certain groups are "more intelligent" than other groups and that this is genetically determined.
48 | Lidane Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:31:52am |
LGF Irrelevance Watch -- ABL picked up the knockout page by Gus about John O'Sullivan:
The National Review Racist Firesale, John O’Sullivan Edition
49 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:32:26am |
re: #47 Expand Your Ground
Again, it all depends on evidence. At present there seems to be no evidence that the intelligence differential is genetically determined, and it's not a necessary state of affairs, but rather a contingent one (i.e. it is in principle possible for intelligence differential to be genetic, it just doesn't seem to be the case).
50 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:36:25am |
re: #49 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Again, it all depends on evidence. At present there seems to be no evidence that the intelligence differential is genetically determined, and it's not a necessary state of affairs, but rather a contingent one (i.e. it is in principle possible for intelligence differential to be genetic, it just doesn't seem to be the case).
Evidence. Some kinds of evidence are easy to gather, like test scores. The analogy from sports is that it is easy to measure how far and fast someone can run, jump or throw a javelin/discus/shotput, how do you assess an individual's skill at a team sport?
51 | Lidane Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:39:08am |
#Breivik "Anyone could do what I did"; "Not everyone is born with a backbone but you can develop one" - via @matthewwprice— BBC Breaking News (@BBCBreaking) April 18, 2012
52 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:44:10am |
re: #49 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
In some ways it's trivially obvious that there's a genetic component to intelligence; I am more intelligent than a rabbit, and part of that is because i have genes that code a different brain than that of the rabbit.
But that's just trivially true. It doesn't get into the main issue that confounds racists whenever they start talking about genes determining anything; the difference between genotype and phenotype.
Something cited by racists or those who aren't racist but simply don't understand genetics is the lung capacity of the people indigenous to the Andes mountains. However, the actual science of it shows that it is a difficult, fascinating, and frustrating task to actually determine what portion of the Andes mountainer's lung capacity is because of the expression of alleles that contribute to lung capacity, and what proportion is adaptation from birth, the body responding to the environment while developing (and potentially even effects in utero).
[Link: jeb.biologists.org...]
The paper also makes the very good point that people often think of genetic differences as being present or absent, when usually the case would be that they are simply being expressed at different frequencies; even if it were eventually shown that the Andes mountainer's lung capacity was highly related to the expression of certain alleles, it is very unlikely that those alleles would be spontaneous mutations in the population, and more likely that they'd be pre-existing in all human populations at very low rates, then selected for in the environment.
53 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:53:13am |
re: #52 Obdicut
One gripe though: one must distinguish between a genetic component of intelligence (which is an established fact; individuals are not genetic blank slates) and the genetic origin of the group differences (which is not proven).
54 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:54:49am |
re: #52 Obdicut
And cultural aspects: if you are raised in a cultural environment that places a lot of value on doing well on written test scores, then you learn to do well on them. If you are raised in a culture where you see tests as irrelevant or without benefit to you do not make the effort to test out well.
It was interesting to read that among inner-city children, black males were the ones most likely not to appear to take the test at all. Which totally skewers any results one might try to derive from them. Do they get a zero for missing the test or a 100 for being intelligent enough to know that it does not matter?
55 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:56:19am |
re: #53 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Oh, absolutely. Even defining what the hell you mean by a 'group' in genetic terms is incredibly fraught. There's no genetic definition of 'race' that isn't massively problematic; if you define it as having certain genes or alleles, then lots of people you'd assume would be of that 'race' wouldn't be, if they happen to be missing those. If you define it as just the incidence and probability of having those alleles or genes in a group, then it really doesn't apply to individuals at all.
56 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:00:28am |
re: #54 Expand Your Ground
And even on very high-level tests, there's weird bias and mistakes. I helped my wife study for the MCAT, and many of the reading comprehension sections were fascinating in their weirdness. They very often included one of two types:
1. Articles that were very badly written or making a terrible logical argument.
2. Articles that were quite well written, making good arguments, but had large portions of them excised.
The testing on these articles was NOT to recognize or examine the flaws, but instead simply to be able to recognize the author's main arguments, even in the midst of either their terrible logic or missing parts.
My wife got very frustrated by this, since what she 'wanted' to talk about in terms of the articles was what they were getting wrong, but the test required her to hold back and only analyze the argument, to put herself in the author's shoes. It is, indeed, a necessary skill to be able to do that, and I understand why they test for it, but the test does not at all separate those who read logically faulty arguments and are convinced by them from those who read the arguments and can tear them apart.
57 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:04:50am |
re: #55 Obdicut
To put this another way: Cystic fibrosis is a lot more common in Ashkenazi Jews than it is in African-Americans. But that says absolutely nothing about an Ashkenazi Jew who doesn't have that gene. It's an observably true fact about a 'race' that says nothing about any individual in that race, except to make a guess at the probability that something affects them.
And if an Ashekenazi Jew has cystic fibrosis, in many ways he is more 'similar', phenotypically, to all others with cystic fibrosis, whatever their 'race' than he is to those of his own 'race'. It's a highly defining characteristic.
And with that, I now I have to go figure out what the latest hash my producer has made of my scripts is.
58 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:06:03am |
re: #57 Obdicut
And with that, I now I have to go figure out what the latest hash my producer has made of my scripts is.
Talk about intelligence! //
59 | Darth Vader Gargoyle Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:21:58am |
Palma de Majorca remains one of my favorite med ports. So beautiful.
Also, Good Morning Honcos.
60 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:25:11am |
61 | Darth Vader Gargoyle Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:32:26am |
re: #60 Obdicut
I always wake up with a morning honco.
/couldn't resist.
If it lasts more than 4 hours, consult a physician!
//
62 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 2:32:44am |
re: #60 Obdicut
I always wake up with a morning honco.
/couldn't resist.
63 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:28:50am |
Once again: forensics is not a magic word.
64 | freetoken Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:43:06am |
Popular perception equates red with women's sexual allure, but the colour may actually act as a turn-off for most males, says a study. Sarah E. Johns, evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Kent, who led the study, said: "Our results really challenge the commonly held view that the colour red promotes sexual attractiveness by acting as a proxy for female genital colour."
"However, we found that men showed a strong aversion to redder female genitals. Our study shows that the myth of red as a proxy for female genital colour should be abandoned," said Johns, the journal Public Library of Science ONE reports.
"This view must be replaced by careful examination of precisely what the colour red, in clothing, makeup, and other contexts, is actually signalling to men. What it isn't signalling is female sexual arousal," added Johns, according to a Kent statement.
A team from Kent's School of Anthropology and Conservation including Lucy A. Hargrave and Nicholas E. Newton-Fisher, generated 16 images of female genitalia by manipulating four photographs of the human vulva to produce four subtle, yet different, colour conditions ranging from pale pink to red.
These images were then presented to 40 heterosexual males with varying levels of sexual experiences who were asked to rate the sexual attractiveness of each image.The results showed that the men rated the reddest shade significantly less attractive than the three pink shades, among which there were no significant differences in rated attractiveness.
SCIENCE!!
65 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:46:21am |
re: #64 freetoken
SCIENCE!!
anecdotal evidence
blonde with bright red lipstick: no big deal
brunette with bright red lipstick: I'm in love
66 | freetoken Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:50:05am |
From the actual paper:
[...]
We generated 16 images of female genitalia by manipulating four individual photographs of the human female vulva, such that we had four colour conditions for four different base images. We used colours within the normal range expected for human genitalia, a gradation of increasing redness starting from a pale pink. This was done to prevent any aversion in our participants (described below) to ‘unnatural’ images [26]: for instance, some NHP studies of genital colour preference have contrasted red with anatomically atypical block colours (e.g. green, purple, orange) [25].
Explicit images of anatomically normal, un-retouched, non-pornographic, similarly-orientated female genitals were surprisingly difficult to obtain, and the number of images used in the experiment reflects this difficulty. We obtained the photographs from a female genital image comparison website (www.vulvavelvet.org), the purpose of which is to inform and educate the public about natural variation in human female genitalia, and to make women feel comfortable with their bodies. Women, over the age of 18, anonymously donate images of their genitals to this website, placing them in the public domain. [...]
Don't ya just love anthropology?
67 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:53:05am |
68 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:55:08am |
re: #67 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Oops, reload. I set the start marker wrong.
70 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:56:54am |
71 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 3:57:19am |
I could be wrong, but I think it's morning again.
ugh
72 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:01:27am |
re: #71 ggt
I could be wrong, but I think it's morning again.
ugh
I'm having a hard time telling right now in any case. Goofed up sleep cycles from working this shift including afternoon naps. So the sun comes up mid-work shift, and goes down right after I wake up from a nap.
Time for another cup of coffee.
73 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:03:59am |
re: #22 Expand Your Ground
Wild, wild West:
"There is a very thin line between communism, progressivism, Marxism, Socialism ... it's about nationalizing production, it's about creating and expanding the welfare state. It's about this idea of social and economic justice," said the retired military officer.
In other words "I don't really understand any of them, but I know they are bad because they are different from my ideas".
Allen West?
74 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:04:16am |
re: #63 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Once again: forensics is not a magic word.
I read the previous story:
Convicted defendants left uninformed of forensic flaws found by Justice Dept.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
The whole article is maddening but it boils down to...
As a result, hundreds of defendants nationwide remain in prison or on parole for crimes that might merit exoneration, a retrial or a retesting of evidence using DNA because FBI hair and fiber experts may have misidentified them as suspects.
In one Texas case, Benjamin Herbert Boyle was executed in 1997, more than a year after the Justice Department began its review. Boyle would not have been eligible for the death penalty without the FBI’s flawed work, according to a prosecutor’s memo.
The case of a Maryland man serving a life sentence for a 1981 double killing is another in which federal and local law enforcement officials knew of forensic problems but never told the defendant. Attorneys for the man, John Norman Huffington, say they learned of potentially exculpatory Justice Department findings from The Washington Post. They are seeking a new trial.
Justice Department officials said that they met their legal and constitutional obligations when they learned of specific errors, that they alerted prosecutors and were not required to inform defendants directly.
75 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:05:42am |
re: #74 RogueOne
There you go. That's what allowing death penalty brings.
76 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:05:48am |
re: #72 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste
I'm having a hard time telling right now in any case. Goofed up sleep cycles from working this shift including afternoon naps. So the sun comes up mid-work shift, and goes down right after I wake up from a nap.
Time for another cup of coffee.
I have messed-up sleep cycles from hormones. Add to that my recent travels to the Pacific and I might as well go back to being an infant.
77 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:06:12am |
re: #73 ggt
Allen West?
Yes, he is just doubling down on his ridiculous "dozens of Democrats are card-carrying Communist" statement.
But Rick Santorum and John Kyl have already set the standard: what they "feel in their hearts" is true.
78 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:07:46am |
I am beginning to think it's going to take another 10+ years for the majority of the population to lose their "red scare.". The younger generation has no memory.
80 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:13:34am |
re: #78 ggt
I am beginning to think it's going to take another 10+ years for the majority of the population to lose their "red scare.". The younger generation has no memory.
They also have no clue. As does Alan West.
82 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:15:38am |
re: #55 Obdicut
Oh, absolutely. Even defining what the hell you mean by a 'group' in genetic terms is incredibly fraught. There's no genetic definition of 'race' that isn't massively problematic; if you define it as having certain genes or alleles, then lots of people you'd assume would be of that 'race' wouldn't be, if they happen to be missing those. If you define it as just the incidence and probability of having those alleles or genes in a group, then it really doesn't apply to individuals at all.
The working definition of race in America is: "When we picked cotton by hand, were your folks more likely in the field or on the porch?" There are very few people in America all of whose genes arrived below-decks of a slave ship. Without a statistically sane way to define and separate black, white, native test subject genetics the research is bogus. That galleon has sailed.
83 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:16:31am |
re: #78 ggt
I am beginning to think it's going to take another 10+ years for the majority of the population to lose their "red scare.". The younger generation has no memory.
Nope. The Chinese will continue to be played up as the next big threat, so the "commie" label is going to hang around for a while still.
84 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:17:44am |
re: #66 freetoken
From the actual paper:
Don't ya just love anthropology?
Damn. And I spent all my time on the Medicine Dances.
85 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:21:53am |
I think I ask this about once a year and I don't know why I can't remember.
What is the word for the lava flow from a volcano after it picks-up debris and because of inertia keeps moving/destroying everything in it's path?
It's a hawaiian word, I believe.
86 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:23:53am |
re: #85 ggt
ʻAʻā
ʻAʻā (also spelled aa, aʻa, ʻaʻa, and a-aa; /ˈɑː.ɑː/ or /ˈɑːʔɑː/, from Hawaiian [ʔəˈʔaː][6] meaning "stony rough lava", but also to "burn" or "blaze") is one of three basic types of flow lava. ʻAʻā is basaltic lava characterized by a rough or rubbly surface composed of broken lava blocks called clinker. The Hawaiian word was introduced as a technical term in geology by Clarence Dutton.[7]
87 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:23:55am |
re: #85 ggt
I think I ask this about once a year and I don't know why I can't remember.
What is the word for the lava flow from a volcano after it picks-up debris and because of inertia keeps moving/destroying everything in it's path?
It's a hawaiian word, I believe.
Might be thinking of 'pyroclastic flow", but that includes a lot of hot mud and gases. It's what got Pompeii.
88 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:24:43am |
89 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:25:30am |
re: #88 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Not very Hawaiian-sounding ;)
It's from the Greek part of Hawaii.
90 | Shropshire_Slasher Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:27:51am |
re: #6 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
So many words!
91 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:28:33am |
92 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:28:49am |
Or marginally related (but it's a lava flow), but if you're ever up in Central Oregon this is actually a nice place to go hiking on a lava flow.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Hint: Don't go in the afternoon! ;)
93 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:29:02am |
actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . . .
This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.
Freaky, majorly freaky.
94 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:29:29am |
re: #86 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
no, but thanks.
95 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:29:53am |
re: #75 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
There you go. That's what allowing death penalty brings.
They should have put off his execution until after the study was completed. OTOH,
I can't seem to find the prosecutors memo they mention but I've read his appeal and Boyle was guilty. 1. There was more evidence than just the hair the FBI tested. 2. There were witnesses who saw her take off with him and gave a description of his truck 3. Even Boyle's family wanted him to hang and testified against him. 4. He was a member of the Aryan Brotherhood and a violent rapist with previous convictions.
96 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:30:06am |
I used to keep a notebook of words --then I misplaced it and started another.
No clue where either are now.
97 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:30:42am |
re: #93 ggt
actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . .
This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.
Freaky, majorly freaky.
That sounds more like a volcanic ash based mud flow in a creek or river. A pyroclastic flow is a lot faster, broader, and something that is probably too dangerous to just stand off to the side to film.
98 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:31:59am |
re: #93 ggt
actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . .
This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.
Freaky, majorly freaky.
Yeah--that's the 'pyroclastic' part. The Hawaiian (I think) describes slow-moving/relentless movement. The stuff you describe is very high-speed.
99 | Shropshire_Slasher Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:32:10am |
re: #45 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste
Those pads are audible sidewalks for the blind.
100 | goddamnedfrank Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:32:57am |
re: #93 ggt
actually, I'm trying to find the video I saw on one of the Cable channels years ago --when Discovery actually was worth watching. It showed a highway overpass being just taken away by the flow from Mount St. Helens. There was everything in the flow--houses, cars, street lights . . .
This guy was standing on the side of the overpass videoing it.
Freaky, majorly freaky.
That was a Lahar. St. Helens was surrounded by large glaciers when it blew, they liquified and mixed with the ash and dirt.
101 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:33:18am |
102 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:33:49am |
re: #95 RogueOne
Oh, doesn't matter in the least. So next time someone will be convicted just on "forensics".
In any case, witnesses can also be flawed. Maybe he was guilty, but if not , there is nothing to turn things back. Which is a simple argument for why there should be no DP.
103 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:34:42am |
104 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:39:48am |
re: #102 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
The victim (tortured, raped and murdered) told people to write down the truck ID just in case anything happened. I'm not 100% opposed to the DP. Boyle is one of those people that, IMO, couldn't have been killed too quickly. As a matter-of-fact, his crime is one of those that I think warrants being killed twice....
The school teacher killed a couple weeks ago did the same thing, called a friend and told him where she was going just "in case anything happens". If you feel the necessity to do that before going with someone... I would hope people would trust their judgement a little more.
105 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:40:30am |
re: #104 RogueOne
Special pleading is futile. Leave the door open for the death penalty, and it will inevitably be used in cases where the evidence isn't as strong.
This is really obvious logic.
106 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:43:21am |
re: #104 RogueOne
Sorry, I don't understand how someone can be pro-DP when judicial mistakes demonstrably happen. Unless one consciously decides that it's better for a few innocents to fry than for a few criminals escape death (and get life sentence). I would think basic justice demands prohibition of such an unnecessary procedure.
108 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:49:15am |
109 | Varek Raith Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:50:08am |
110 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:50:33am |
re: #107 ggt
Lahar kinda sounds hawaiian --no?
Your link says Indonesian. Warm, wet and surrounded by water, anyways.
111 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:51:17am |
re: #110 Decatur Deb
Your link says Indonesian. Warm, wet and surrounded by water, anyways.
I know :)
112 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:51:34am |
114 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:52:29am |
That was a trap.
115 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:52:51am |
116 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:53:03am |
re: #106 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Sorry, I don't understand how someone can be pro-DP when judicial mistakes demonstrably happen. Unless one consciously decides that it's better for a few innocents to fry than for a few criminals escape death (and get life sentence). I would think basic justice demands prohibition of such an unnecessary procedure.
Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"? I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle. If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.
The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?
118 | Varek Raith Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:55:05am |
The death penalty is the easy way out.
As they are dead. Worm food. Future zombies. No burning in mythical places for all eternity. Dead.
I'd much rather they spend the rest of their lives in jail.
119 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:55:06am |
re: #116 RogueOne
Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"? I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle. If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.
The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?
I agree, there are monsters --Brevik being the one most on my mind. I don't understand why Society should be expected to use resources to keep him alive.
With that said. Way too much money is spent on DP cases in appeal, etc. We might be better off spending that money on EDUCATION AND CONTRACEPTION. add in Mental Health Treatment.
I am am broken record on this.
120 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:56:01am |
re: #116 RogueOne
Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"?
No analogy.
I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle.
Oh, absolutely. They deserve it. They just should never get it for one simple reason explained above.
If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.
Well, as long as you agree that those who are not absolutely guilty walk free. Otherwise you're introducing an incoherent notion of "not absolutely guilty but will stay in prison".
The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?
Of course.
121 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:56:05am |
re: #109 Varek Raith
Javanese.
;)
I'd be curious if it translates as a local Javanese of "Oh Shit!". But probably just something like "mud of urban renewal".
122 | Varek Raith Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:57:30am |
re: #121 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste
I'd be curious if it translates as a local Javanese of "Oh Shit!". But probably just something like "mud of urban renewal".
berlahar
[kata dasar / root word: lahar] expel lava; spout
(kata umum - common word)
123 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:57:57am |
re: #118 Varek Raith
The death penalty is the easy way out.
As they are dead. Worm food. Future zombies. No burning in mythical places for all eternity. Dead.
I'd much rather the spend the rest of their lives in jail.
'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.
124 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:58:21am |
re: #123 Decatur Deb
'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.
As simple as that.
125 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:58:56am |
re: #116 RogueOne
There's no coherent way of categorizing 'people like him', or setting a standard of evidence where we're 'really, really sure' of the guilt of someone, so that we could employ the death penalty.
Special pleading is never going to make it so. History shows us, over and over and over, that where there is the death penalty, it gets misapplied.
If we were all perfect beings, we could use the death penalty, but then again, we wouldn't have to.
126 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:58:57am |
re: #123 Decatur Deb
'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.
For me it's a resources issue. As it is, it costs more to kill them to keep them for life in prison --because of legal BS and such. Last I heard anyway.
127 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:59:08am |
re: #120 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Of course.
Basically that's what our difference boils down to, you don't believe the DP is ever warranted and I believe there are crimes that almost demand it.
I am not now, nor have I ever been, a pro-lifer....////
129 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:59:41am |
re: #127 RogueOne
No, that's not the difference at all. it's not what the crimes demand, it's about our ability to apply the death penalty justly.
You really not getting that part of it?
130 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:59:48am |
re: #127 RogueOne
Basically that's what our difference boils down to, you don't believe the DP is ever warranted and I believe there are crimes that almost demand it.
I am not now, nor have I ever been, a pro-lifer...///
I see no benefit to Society to keep Charlie Manson alive.
sorry, I just don't.
131 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 4:59:55am |
Prison sentence = reversible, necessary.
Death sentence = irreversible, unnecessary.
132 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:00:25am |
re: #128 Varek Raith
FBV poked his head in to say he's taking some 'me' time to improve himself as a person, a husband, a friend. Which is very cool of him to do.
Reine posted a page about her glass stuff a little while ago, and another one a little while ago.
133 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:00:39am |
re: #123 Decatur Deb
'Zactly. Let the true villains rot. The erroneous life sentence has one outstanding virtue--reversibility.
I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.
134 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:00:55am |
135 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:02am |
re: #130 ggt
I see no benefit to Society to keep Charlie Manson alive.
sorry, I just don't.
He has more deterrent value, if you believe in it, than Gary Gilmore.
136 | Varek Raith Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:04am |
re: #132 Obdicut
FBV poked his head in to say he's taking some 'me' time to improve himself as a person, a husband, a friend. Which is very cool of him to do.
Reine posted a page about her glass stuff a little while ago, and another one a little while ago.
Ah, ok.
Well, hi guy/gal!
137 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:08am |
re: #127 RogueOne
Basically that's what our difference boils down to, you don't believe the DP is never warranted and I believe there are crimes that almost demand it.
I am not now, nor have I ever been, a pro-lifer...///
Actually, I explained in the comments that you snipped that my position is the opposite of what you state here. I don't know why you need to distort my position.
138 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:16am |
re: #128 Varek Raith
Anyone seen FBV or Reine lately?
I think FBV dropped a few comments in a couple of days ago. Don't recall seeing any Reine comments in the past few weeks. But given travel and recent work schedule that's not surprising to me since I'm on during "slow time" a lot.
139 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:18am |
re: #130 ggt
That's not the point. The benefit to society isn't keeping Manson alive, it's keeping someone else alive where the evidence really seemed strong that they'd committed the murder, but it turns out later someone else did.
Any case made on the back of an individual isn't applicable; the law has to apply to everyone.
140 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:24am |
re: #131 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Prison sentence = reversible, necessary.
Death sentence = irreversible, unnecessary.
Couple that with a system that "rewards" DA's for getting the most DP convictions (remember the applause that Rick Perry garnered for his Texas "record") and you all but ensure that there will be a lot of erroneous convictions.
141 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:01:42am |
142 | kirkspencer Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:02:18am |
re: #116 RogueOne
Mistakes can, have, and will be made. Does that mean we shouldn't incarcerate anyone and deprive them of their "life, liberty, and property"? I think that standard is too high and that some people commit crimes heinous enough (torture, rape, and murder) to warrant a needle. If we are sure the process is fair, and we know the defendant is absolutely guilty, I have zero problem removing those people from the planet.
The answer to "mistakes can be made" is to minimize and correct the mistakes, not withhold punishment. The KSM trial is about to start, should the DP be removed for people like him?
Well, "mistakes can be made" means to me that when discovered attempts at correction should be made as when the mistakes are discovered.
To the best of my knowledge, wrongful death is not correctable.
143 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:02:19am |
re: #133 RogueOne
I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.
Not at the expense of possible innocents being executed. It's not rocket surgery.
144 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:02:26am |
re: #129 Obdicut
No, that's not the difference at all. it's not what the crimes demand, it's about our ability to apply the death penalty justly.
You really not getting that part of it?
I am getting it. I think it can be applied correctly. (I think it was applied correctly in the Boyle case.) Not every DP case is questionable.
145 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:02:31am |
re: #133 RogueOne
I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.
Yeah, but the cost is the issue.
We know without a doubt Brevik, Manson, and others are guilty. But it will cost more to kill them to keep them alive.
Perhaps if Death Penalty cases were moved to the Federal Level. I wouldn't mind if all Murder became a Federal Crime. The States seem to have too many differences in carrying out justice.
Add to that Child Rape --but the Supreme Court rather ruined it a while back.
146 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:02:52am |
re: #143 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Not at the expense of possible innocents being executed. It's not rocket surgery.
Don't give Varek any ideas!
147 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:03:05am |
re: #133 RogueOne
I think some crimes are too heinous to allow someone to sit around all day breathing. If someone rapes/tortures and murders someone they've lost their right to fresh air.
I take anti-DP as a default. There are executions I don't weep over.
148 | Varek Raith Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:03:33am |
re: #146 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste
Don't give Varek any ideas!
Rocket propelled scalpels...
...
..
.
BRILLIANT!
149 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:03:39am |
re: #144 RogueOne
I am getting it. I think it can be applied correctly. (I think it was applied correctly in the Boyle case.) Not every DP case is questionable.
Dude, what the fuck? Once again, I'm left wondering if your'e being serious or just fucking up on purpose.
It's not about whether it can be applied correctly in individual cases. It's whether it can be applied correctly as a policy. And history clearly, clearly shows that it can't.
150 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:04:18am |
re: #144 RogueOne
I am getting it. I think it can be applied correctly. (I think it was applied correctly in the Boyle case.) Not every DP case is questionable.
Do you agree that as long as the DP case is questionable, the person should walk free? Remember, its either guilty or not guilty.
151 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:04:44am |
re: #147 Decatur Deb
I take anti-DP as a default. There are executions I don't weep over.
Exactly. If one vicious savage asshole neo-Nazi murderer kills another vicious neo-Nazi murderer to get his Hitler memorabilia collection, I'm really not sorry that the guy died. I still want the murderer prosecuted.
The fitness of the person for death has nothing to do with the ability of society to justly apply that death penalty.
152 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:05:01am |
re: #150 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Do you agree that as long as the DP case is questionable, the person should walk free? Remember, its either guilty or not guilty.
What happened to life without parole?
153 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:05:01am |
re: #145 ggt
Yeah, but the cost is the issue.
...
That's one argument I don't buy. I understand the morality argument against the DP but, IMO, the cost shouldn't be a factor.
154 | kirkspencer Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:05:18am |
Note, please, that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is not "absolutely certain."
155 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:05:52am |
re: #152 Expand Your Ground
What happened to life without parole?
If he did it, he deserves DP, right?
156 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:06:46am |
re: #145 ggt
Yeah, but the cost is the issue.
As the military is discovering now that medical and surgical advances mean that more wounded GI's are surviving combat. It was cheaper for them just to pay off the families and be shut of them, now they have life-long medical consditions to pay for...
157 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:07:30am |
re: #155 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
If he did it, he deserves DP, right?
I am coming in here against DP. And SYG.
158 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:08:42am |
re: #153 RogueOne
That's one argument I don't buy. I understand the morality argument against the DP but, IMO, the cost shouldn't be a factor.
I need to base policy decisions on that which can be measured --just me.
Morality can't be measured, resources and the cost to society can be.
It makes no sense to choose DP over Life in Prison when both remove the person from Society --if DP costs many times more money than Life in Prison.
Society is safe from the person either way.
I really can't stand that we are (people of California?) are paying to feed Manson, but it is cheaper to do so than to kill him.
159 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:09:30am |
re: #149 Obdicut
Dude, what the fuck? Once again, I'm left wondering if your'e being serious or just fucking up on purpose.
It's not about whether it can be applied correctly in individual cases. It's whether it can be applied correctly as a policy. And history clearly, clearly shows that it can't.
And, as you just said, it can be applied correctly. Seems to me we agree on 2 of the 3 issues. 1. It can be misapplied and mistakes can be made. 2. It can be applied correctly in individual cases. Where we disagree is in how we deal with the uncertainty.
160 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:09:41am |
re: #156 Expand Your Ground
As the military is discovering now that medical and surgical advances mean that more wounded GI's are surviving combat. It was cheaper for them just to pay off the families and be shut of them, now they have life-long medical consditions to pay for...
different argument -- we are talking heinous crime.
161 | kirkspencer Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:09:47am |
For what it's worth, if I were to agree with the DP I'd not use "heinous" as the measure. There are some things for which heinous is in the eye of the beholder.
I lean more toward using it for repeat/serial offenders of the crimes of murder and rape, if at all.
162 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:11:18am |
re: #157 Expand Your Ground
I understand that, but you asked a question.
There is no third position in the scheme that Rogue proposes. In any Heinous Atrocity case there is either absolute certainty (and the accused gets DP); or he walks free, because if there is doubt about his guilt - well, he should not be in prison if there is doubt, right?
163 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:11:21am |
re: #161 kirkspencer
For what it's worth, if I were to agree with the DP I'd not use "heinous" as the measure. There are some things for which heinous is in the eye of the beholder.
I lean more toward using it for repeat/serial offenders of the crimes of murder and rape, if at all.
true, was just trying to distinguish the argument.
164 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:11:22am |
re: #159 RogueOne
And, as you just said, it can be applied correctly
Nope. You're either just not paying any attention or deliberately distorting what I'm saying. Any individual application doesn't matter. We're discussing the policy.
. Seems to me we agree on 2 of the 3 issues. 1. It can be misapplied and mistakes can be made. 2. It can be applied correctly in individual cases. Where we disagree is in how we deal with the uncertainty.
Nope. I'm saying it will always inevitably result in the death of innocent people. Unless you're saying you're peachy with that.
165 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:11:34am |
re: #161 kirkspencer
For what it's worth, if I were to agree with the DP I'd not use "heinous" as the measure. There are some things for which heinous is in the eye of the beholder.
I lean more toward using it for repeat/serial offenders of the crimes of murder and rape, if at all.
This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.
166 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:13:00am |
re: #165 RogueOne
This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.
And one can be sentenced for rape/torture/murder mistakenly.
167 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:14:23am |
There is the whole "deterrence" issue, and I guess there are people who are willing to accept the occasional false conviction (and execution) in order to retain the deterrent factor....
168 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:14:58am |
The process can be fair, there may be witnesses + forensics, and in the end it can still be a mistake.
169 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:15:19am |
re: #165 RogueOne
This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.
Even that gets squirrely. Some crimes are so heinous that the very act calls sanity into question. Rule one is just to get them out of play.
170 | CuriousLurker Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:15:28am |
*opens door; yawns; starts to wave hi, but then sees...death penalty argument at 8:00am—rape, murder, torture, terrorists...mutters to self, "wayyy too flippin' early for this, I should know better"...rubs eyes...closes door & stumbles towards kitchen in search of coffee...*
171 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:16:11am |
re: #166 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
And one can be sentenced for rape/torture/murder mistakenly.
and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.
172 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:16:15am |
re: #168 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
And deliberate distortions of justice by police, prosecutors, judges, witness, or others.
173 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:16:33am |
Is the purpose of our justice system to
1) keep society safe from bad people
or
2) punish bad people?
174 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:16:47am |
and for the record I didn't hijack the thread and turn it into a DP argument...that was sergey's fault!//
175 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:16:57am |
re: #171 RogueOne
So you're okay with innocent people being put to death by the state using the death penalty? Because it's inevitable that it will happen.
176 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:17:05am |
re: #170 CuriousLurker
*opens door; yawns; starts to wave hi, but then sees...death penalty argument at 8:00am—rape, murder, torture, terrorists...mutters to self, "wayyy too flippin' early for this, I should know better"...rubs eyes...closes door & stumbles towards kitchen in search of coffee...*
177 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:17:15am |
re: #171 RogueOne
and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.
I think that is the gist of the issue.
IT is approached from different angles by people at all levels.
178 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:17:19am |
re: #167 Expand Your Ground
There is the whole "deterrence" issue, and I guess there are people who are willing to accept the occasional false conviction (and execution) in order to retain the deterrent factor...
False convictions are inevitable, but they're unescapeable unless we abandon the whole system, and they're reversible (of course, one can't give back 'time', but there's nothing one can do about it; necessity overrides this consideration). There is nothing necessary about DP, even if one considers the deterrence factor, which is hardly proven.
179 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:17:27am |
re: #173 ggt
Is the purpose of our justice system to
1) keep society safe from bad people
or
2) punish bad people?
both plus the 3rd option, "Rehabilitation".
180 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:18:31am |
re: #179 RogueOne
both plus the 3rd option, "Rehabilitation".
2) with extreme prejudice. Preferably on the spot. Just ask Ted Nugent.
/
181 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:18:42am |
re: #171 RogueOne
and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.
They cannot be made on individual cases as a matter of policy.
182 | kirkspencer Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:19:10am |
re: #165 RogueOne
This. I can't think of a much more heinous crime than Rape/Torture/Murder.
And you completely missed the point of my argument.
I do not like the DP. I do not want it applied to "heinous" crime.
I do not like the DP because sometimes it is wrong. If I err in imprisoning, I can eventually release. I cannot resurrect the dead.
I do not like "heinous" as it is an emotional measure. At one time it was heinous for a black man to have sex, even if consensual, with a white woman. In the eyes of some, two men having sex is heinous.
If and only if I had no choice about the death penalty, I would use it NOT for rape or murder, but for cases where the rapist or murderer is a recidivist. A very large proportion of murders in prison are situational murderers; they are highly unlikely to repeat the crime. Rapists are far more likely to re-offend, but again there are some who do not repeat the crime once punished and sent through rehabilitation.
In essence, I would reserve the death penalty for those who cause ultimate harm to our society and who further demonstrate a willingness to continue despite attempts to correct the behavior.
And even then, only if we could be absolutely certain, 100%, that there was no hanky panky with the evidence or the jury selection or judicial bias or any of the other things that have been discovered in wrongful conviction cases.
Which means, again, that I do not support the death penalty.
183 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:19:14am |
re: #179 RogueOne
both plus the 3rd option, "Rehabilitation".
As I understand it, we aren't originally set-up for Rehabilitation.
The whole thing is a clusterfuck, IMHO. Every State has a different take on it and justice is not meted out evenly.
It is cheaper in the long-run to rehabilitate, but what about those that can't be rehabilitated?
EDUCATION, CONTRACEPTION AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT
are my only answers.
184 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:19:24am |
re: #173 ggt
Is the purpose of our justice system to
1) keep society safe from bad people
or
2) punish bad people?
I'm for 1 far more than 2. And I want to add 3: Protect my rights if anything should happen to my ex-SIL.
185 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:20:05am |
re: #171 RogueOne
and, in this case, he wasn't. I think a base standard of "no DP because mistakes can be made" is too simplistic. These decisions should be based on the individual cases.
We have a system that all but rewards prosecutors for seeking and obtaining deapth penalty convictions. Unless we can rework the system to preclude that and ensure an almost superhuman form of justice, we will have false convictions.
186 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:20:49am |
re: #180 Expand Your Ground
2) with extreme prejudice. Preferably on the spot. Just ask Ted Nugent.
/
Rehabilitation with extreme prejudice....that's funny. OTOH, when we toss 18 yr old kids into prison for selling weed.....that's basically the system we have.
187 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:20:52am |
re: #170 CuriousLurker
*opens door; yawns; starts to wave hi, but then sees...death penalty argument at 8:00am—rape, murder, torture, terrorists...mutters to self, "wayyy too flippin' early for this, I should know better"...rubs eyes...closes door & stumbles towards kitchen in search of coffee...*
ooo... DP for theft of coffee before 9am in the morning?
188 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:21:10am |
re: #175 Obdicut
So you're okay with innocent people being put to death by the state using the death penalty? Because it's inevitable that it will happen.
And it's inevitable that really bad people will not be convicted and innocent people will be rape/tortured and killed by them.
Where do you draw the line in matter of policy?
189 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:22:23am |
re: #188 ggt
They will be killed by bad people, not by the state. It's not a matter of policy.
190 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:23:13am |
re: #189 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
They will be killed by bad people, not by the state. It's not a matter of policy.
Thus, individuals must be able to defend themselves.
The State cannot protect them from bad people.
191 | Gretchen G.Tiger Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:25:12am |
I have a full day of driving people to the doctor and I have to get gas (and more coffee)
Have a great one all!
192 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:26:00am |
re: #182 kirkspencer
And you completely missed the point of my argument.
I do not like the DP. I do not want it applied to "heinous" crime.
I do not like the DP because sometimes it is wrong. If I err in imprisoning, I can eventually release. I cannot resurrect the dead.
I do not like "heinous" as it is an emotional measure. At one time it was heinous for a black man to have sex, even if consensual, with a white woman. In the eyes of some, two men having sex is heinous.
If and only if I had no choice about the death penalty, I would use it NOT for rape or murder, but for cases where the rapist or murderer is a recidivist. A very large proportion of murders in prison are situational murderers; they are highly unlikely to repeat the crime. Rapists are far more likely to re-offend, but again there are some who do not repeat the crime once punished and sent through rehabilitation.
In essence, I would reserve the death penalty for those who cause ultimate harm to our society and who further demonstrate a willingness to continue despite attempts to correct the behavior.
And even then, only if we could be absolutely certain, 100%, that there was no hanky panky with the evidence or the jury selection or judicial bias or any of the other things that have been discovered in wrongful conviction cases.
Which means, again, that I do not support the death penalty.
I don't think I missed the point of your argument. Not only did I get it, I'm 90% in agreement. Where we disagree, and why I pointed out the "heinous" portion, is because I don't believe there is any doubt that raping/torturing and then killing someone is "heinous".
193 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:26:02am |
What Rogue proposes is a perverted "justice" of double standards. Basically, if there's a video tape of murder, X should fry because there's an alleged "absolute certainty". If there isn't, but only witnesses, well, OK, just give him life. The problem being, X is either guilty or not in both cases, and there is no other standard but "beyond the reasonable doubt". There is no standard of "absolute certainty".
194 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:27:13am |
re: #188 ggt
And it's inevitable that really bad people will not be convicted and innocent people will be rape/tortured and killed by them.
I'm sorry, what does that have to do with the death penalty?
195 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:30:02am |
re: #193 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
You're almost dead on. (even though you phrased it with a tad too much snark//) I don't think expecting a higher standard for DP cases is a double standard. If we're going to take someones life we have an obligation to be absolutely certain and I think there are cases where that standard can be reached.
196 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:32:27am |
re: #195 RogueOne
You're almost dead on. (even though you phrased it with a tad too much snark//) I don't think expecting a higher standard for DP cases is a double standard. If we're going to take someones life we have an obligation to be absolutely certain and I think there are cases where that standard can be reached.
Alabama will be comfortable with its level of certainty well before Connecticut will.
197 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:34:17am |
re: #195 RogueOne
You're almost dead on. (even though you phrased it with a tad too much snark//) I don't think expecting a higher standard for DP cases is a double standard. If we're going to take someones life we have an obligation to be absolutely certain and I think there are cases where that standard can be reached.
The problem is that while I agree that it can be reached in some cases, there is simply no way to pinpoint which cases are those and to sort them out from all the other cases. For a very simple reason that there will be disagreements as to what constitues absolute certainty in each case. And once you leave this in the hands of the jury, it will be no different from normal DP cases: it will be abused and innocents will still die.
198 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:38:29am |
She tried to stop fellow officers from kicking the crap out of a mental patient....she must be nuts..
Bogota Officer May Be Fired For Stopping Beatdown
[Link: www.wpix.com...]
Plenty of cop "beat downs" can be found online, but how often does the officer who stops others from handing out the beating get fired for it? That's exactly what's happening to Officer Regina Tasca in the Bogota Police Department.
Tasca's dashboard camera captured her as she attempted to stop two officers from beating an emotionally disturbed young man. Just days after the incident, she was told she was being suspended with pay. A year later, her trial is about to begin as the Bogota PD seeks to fire her.
.....
"The next thing I know he asks me to turn over my weapon and be sent for a fitness for duty exam," she said.Bogota PD, after hearing Tasca's story, believes she is psychologically incompetent to be a police officer, and she is being sent for testing. The Ridgefield Park Police officers seen tackling and punching an emotionally disturbed man waiting for an ambulance are never questioned. never interviewed by an Internal Affairs Investigator, and are still working the streets today.
Bogota Police chose to suspend Tasca, an 11-year veteran with numerous commendations. There are photographs from the hospital documenting the bruises on the 22-year-old's head, back, arms and wrists.
Tasca says the real reason she's being called out on these charges is she crossed the "blue line" by refusing to support another officer even when he used excessive force. The other problem? The Bogota Police Department is very small--fewer than 20 officers. And there, she is a definitive minority.
199 | kirkspencer Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:39:52am |
re: #183 ggt
As I understand it, we aren't originally set-up for Rehabilitation.
The whole thing is a clusterfuck, IMHO. Every State has a different take on it and justice is not meted out evenly.
It is cheaper in the long-run to rehabilitate, but what about those that can't be rehabilitated?
EDUCATION, CONTRACEPTION AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT
are my only answers.
Actually, yes we were "originally" set up for rehab.
Skipping a lot of the side roads, the reason they're called penitentiaries is because they were supposed to be places for those who committed crimes to repent their sins. The whole idea of long-term imprisonment was actually meant to be a humane change to standard practices of death, mutilation, and impoverishment.
The theory was that separating these people would protect society from their depravities while and until they'd learned to be productive and contributing citizens. At the same time the separation would allow introspection without temptation.
Unfortunately, there is also a large portion of society that wants vengeance. This portion frequently wants not just an eye for an eye, but a pound of flesh in interest. This gets disguised as a valid point: that often the criminal must be punished so as to recognize the crime is wrong.
I've mentioned this other times we've gotten into this same argument, I'll mention it again.
According to what we know of how the mind works at this time, our whole criminal justice system is designed to increase, not decrease, crime over all.
We should have a sharp, significant, but SHORT punishment. We should follow that with rehab in a controlled environment that includes training for alternatives, followed by rehab in an uncontrolled environment (parole equivalent). We should have two levels of an extended separation policy (long-term imprisonment) only for those we cannot rehab, demonstrated by their repeated recidivism. the extreme is, basically, LWOP in prison. The other is - think half-way house based out of a prison.
It won't happen, not here, but it's what we should be aiming for based on what we know at this time.
200 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:40:00am |
re: #198 RogueOne
And you wish this rotten system to decide life and death.
201 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:41:01am |
re: #200 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
And you wish this rotten system to decide life and death.
sometimes.
202 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:41:42am |
203 | kirkspencer Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:42:48am |
re: #192 RogueOne
I don't think I missed the point of your argument. Not only did I get it, I'm 90% in agreement. Where we disagree, and why I pointed out the "heinous" portion, is because I don't believe there is any doubt that raping/torturing and then killing someone is "heinous".
And the possibility of biased judges, cooked evidence from prosecutors, and/or terrible defense attorneys doesn't sway you? If convicted, he must be killed, so execute him?
Do you not read history? Do you not read the news? Or do you only see and hear what you wish to hear?
204 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:43:14am |
re: #203 kirkspencer
He's refused to engage with this point all thread, I doubt he's suddenly going to change his mind and actually deal with it now.
205 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:44:48am |
re: #200 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
And you wish this rotten system to decide life and death.
"The Equal Justice Initiative is an organization that provides legal representation to indigent defendants and prisoners who have been
denied fair and just treatment in the legal system.
The group contends that, from 2006 to 2010, state prosecutors in Dothan used peremptory strikes to exclude 82% of qualified black jurors in death-penalty cases. As a result, the jury in every death-penalty case in Houston County over this period has been all white or had only a single black juror despite the fact that the circuit is nearly 25% African-American. Equal Justice Initiative has also previously reported that Houston County has the highest per capita death sentencing rate in Alabama.
When asked about the lawsuit, Valeska reportedly brushed off the claims.
"I’m amazed that equal justice can issue press releases and send things out seeking pre-trial publicity before I have even been served,” said Valeska Wednesday, according to local news outlet WFSA 12. “I’m not surprised that they have done this.”
The suit was later dismissed.
[Link: www.bet.com...]
206 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:50:07am |
re: #203 kirkspencer
And the possibility of biased judges, cooked evidence from prosecutors, and/or terrible defense attorneys doesn't sway you? If convicted, he must be killed, so execute him?
Do you not read history? Do you not read the news? Or do you only see and hear what you wish to hear?
Yes, it does "sway me" hence my argument for a standard tougher than "beyond a reasonable doubt" for DP cases. I think the argument that mistakes "might" be made so we should never use the DP is simplistic. You stated above that there are situations where it's both warranted and justified. Where are you thinking we disagree?
207 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:52:32am |
re: #206 RogueOne
Yes, it does "sway me" hence my argument for a standard tougher than "beyond a reasonable doubt" for DP cases. I think the argument that mistakes "might" be made so we should never use the DP is simplistic. You stated above that there are situations where it's both warranted and justified. Where are you thinking we disagree?
You drag this red herring of a logic fail from comment to comment. It does not follow from "in specific cases we can be pretty certain" to "a standard can be formulated which will objectively sort out all such cases into one neat category".
208 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:52:50am |
Got to walk the dog during this break in the rain. We'll discuss Indonesian cuisine as we go. BBL
209 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:56:38am |
re: #207 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
You drag this red herring of a logic fail from comment to comment. It does not follow from "in specific cases we can be pretty certain" to "a standard can be formulated which will objectively sort out all such cases into one neat category".
The logic fail is the belief that if we can't be certain for everyone we can't be certain for anyone. The second logic fail is the belief in a need for a blanket policy instead of judging individuals on a case by case basis. That's why "we can't be 100% certain in every case therefore it shouldn't be used in any case" is a simplistic argument.
210 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 5:59:50am |
re: #209 RogueOne
The logic fail is the belief that if we can't be certain for everyone we can't be certain for anyone.
And this is a strawman of course, so the logic fail is yours. This is not what is being argued.
The second logic fail is the belief in a need for a blanket policy instead of judging individuals on a case by case basis.
And once you introduce this arbitrariness, without any blanket standard, you cannot prevent abuse and mistaken sentencing.
That's why "we can't be 100% certain in every case therefore it shouldn't be used in any case" is a simplistic argument.
Non sequitur.
211 | RogueOne Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:00:13am |
Time for me to wrap it up and hit the road....Enjoy the day people!
We'll continue the DP argument (part 107) sometime soon.
212 | kirkspencer Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:11:47am |
re: #206 RogueOne
Yes, it does "sway me" hence my argument for a standard tougher than "beyond a reasonable doubt" for DP cases. I think the argument that mistakes "might" be made so we should never use the DP is simplistic. You stated above that there are situations where it's both warranted and justified. Where are you thinking we disagree?
We disagree that the argument mistakes "might" be made is simplistic.
Given sufficient cases, mistakes will be made. You cannot make a perfect system that involves people. There will be an error.
The issue, the question, then, is this. There will be an error that will result in a wrongful conviction. Therefore, is it better that all heinous offenders live forever separated from society so that we can rescue and recover that one mistake, or is it better to allow that one mistake to die so we can appropriately remove the guilty?
I repeat: I cannot resurrect the dead. I can remove a man (or woman) from prison. I choose to allow the possible.
213 | Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:12:23am |
re: #199 kirkspencer
Actually, yes we were "originally" set up for rehab.
[snip long explanation on theory and shortcomings of current justice and prison system]
It won't happen, not here, but it's what we should be aiming for based on what we know at this time.
Until they figure out how to make the "right" system politically and corporatively profitable of course.
/
215 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:33:45am |
re: #214 Obdicut
The argument would be his exact method of achieveing absolute certainty without arintrariness and blanket standard. Which he cannot propose since no one can.
216 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:36:27am |
re: #215 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Well, yeah, I should have said he hasn't made an argument compatible with reality.
217 | Lidane Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:37:13am |
Romney Campaign: We Never Asked For Ted Nugent’s Endorsement
Contrary to reports from the time, the Romney campaign says it never sought the endorsement of conservative shock rocker Ted Nugent. On Tuesday, the Romney campagin distanced itself from Nugent’s incendiary speech at the NRA convention over the weekend. And on Wednesday, it went further, telling NBC News Romney “never solicited” the backing of Nugent, who has a long history of violent rhetoric toward Democrats.
218 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:39:27am |
re: #217 Lidane
Too bad they celebrated Nugent joining 'Team Mitt', then.
Ted Nugent endorsed my Dad today.Ted Nugent? How cool is that?! He joins Kid Rock as great Detroit musicians on team Mitt!— Tagg Romney (@tromney) March 2, 2012
219 | Lidane Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:46:57am |
re: #218 Obdicut
Exactly. They wanted his endorsement and actively sought it. They bragged about it. Then Ted opened his pie hole, and now Team Romney is scrambling to say they never wanted his endorsement? Come on.
220 | William Barnett-Lewis Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:49:47am |
re: #219 Lidane
Exactly. They wanted his endorsement and actively sought it. They bragged about it. Then Ted opened his pie hole, and now Team Romney is scrambling to say they never wanted his endorsement? Come on.
Hurry & shake the etch-a-sketch! We have to change our mind!
221 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:50:59am |
re: #219 Lidane
They may not have actively sought it. That may be Nugent saying shit and people believing him. But they did celebrate that they got it. Of course, it's another family member, so Mitt may simply blame the error on his son and then get sanctimonious about anyone then 'attacking' his son.
222 | Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:53:05am |
re: #221 Obdicut
They may not have actively sought it. That may be Nugent saying shit and people believing him. But they did celebrate that they got it. Of course, it's another family member, so Mitt may simply blame the error on his son and then get sanctimonious about anyone then 'attacking' his son.
He has placed his sons in the fight. Getting him elected is how they serve their country. We should send a USO act.
223 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 6:53:29am |
Did Mileva Marić assist Einstein in writing his 1905 path breaking papers? [PDF]
224 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:00:41am |
225 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:05:10am |
re: #224 Mostly sane, most of the time.
Who can say?
I think this paper is quite convincing in that there is no evidence that she did, and what evidence there is indicates that she didn't.
226 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:12:26am |
re: #225 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
I think this paper is quite convincing in that there is no evidence that she did, and what evidence there is indicates that she didn't.
I dislike the fact that the article says that the divorce was "amiable." Oh no, it wasn't. He had to badger her into giving him a divorce so he could marry another woman.
However, her low scores would indicate that she simply wasn't, well, Einstein.
227 | Stoatly Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:13:12am |
Charles gets a mention in comments at Harry's Place
armaros
The Secret Service is onto him.
[Link: nation.foxnews.com...]
But not the Panthers or Lord Nazir Ahmed …. of course…
Wow…Gilad Atzmon, Ted Nugent, Charlie Manson…there aren’t many musicians who go on to become threatening, terrorist entities…”
No but they can become seriously deranged morons who think they can play politics.
Cat Stevens should be added to the list and Charles Johnson.
228 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:15:28am |
I'm looking at Ioffe's article at [Link: ufn.ru...] and he indeed nowhere says that the papers were signed "Einstein-Marity". Sometimes "facts" are created out of whole cloth.
229 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:17:15am |
re: #226 Mostly sane, most of the time.
I dislike the fact that the article says that the divorce was "amiable."
But it doesn't say that. It actually refutes this claim, which is quoted from another article by someone insisting on Maric's collaboration.
230 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:22:10am |
re: #229 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
But it doesn't say that. It actually refutes this claim, which is quoted from another article by someone insisting on Maric's collaboration.
You are correct, that was a quote.
231 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:22:54am |
Wow, conservative whacko on CNN thinks there's going to be a goddamn race war. And that the media is trying to get it to happen. To help with Obama's re-election.
[Link: www.mediaite.com...]
232 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:24:28am |
re: #231 Obdicut
John Nolte's Newsbusters Neanderthal-looking pal.
233 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:26:09am |
Of course, every time I see Noel Sheppard I remember about this pic: Image: redneck_twins.jpg
234 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:26:35am |
Sorry for not reading more closely. I'm also scanning the news. I'm reading an article about how some moms can't afford to go to work because of day care costs.
I would have had to be making lots and lots of money to afford child care for five. Hollywood actress type money.
235 | CuriousLurker Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:29:46am |
I can't stick around this morning, but I just saw these on Twitter regarding the Arab Spring. I always appreciate reading things about the ME that aren't filled with pearl-clutching & hyperventilation, so I figure some of you will also:
A new book by Robin Wright:
The Islamists Are Coming is the first book to survey the rise of Islamist groups in the wake of the Arab Spring. Often lumped together, the more than 50 Islamist parties with millions of followers now constitute a whole new spectrum—separate from either militants or secular parties. They will shape the new order in the world’s most volatile region more than any other political bloc. Yet they have diverse goals and different constituencies. Sometimes they are even rivals.
[Link: www.wilsoncenter.org...]
An article about Egypt:
Paradoxes of “religious freedom” in Egypt
The place of religion in the political order is arguably the most contentious issue in post-Mubarak Egypt. With Islamist-oriented parties controlling over 70 percent of seats in the new People’s Assembly and the constitution-writing process about to begin, liberals and leftists are apprehensive about the implications for Egyptian law and society, including the rights of Egypt’s millions of Coptic Christians.
Mindful of these anxieties and pragmatic in its approach, the Muslim Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party (FJP) has backed away from earlier calls for an “Islamic state.” Its 2011 election platform opts instead to promote the sharia as a “frame of reference. ” Working hard to assuage anxieties both at home and abroad, the Party explicitly calls for a “civil state” and repeatedly stresses the importance of equality of citizenship among Muslims and Christians:
Egyptians, Muslims and Christians, are integral parts of the fabric of the one homeland, with equal rights and duties, and without distinction or discrimination, and all together they must remove the injustice inflicted upon them.
[...]
As benign as this aspect of the FJP platform may sound, provisions guaranteeing “special rights” for different religious communities often carry illiberal implications when codified as state law. But the presumed alternative—banishing religious law through strict secularism—is also not an unqualified good. It imposes restrictions on “religious freedom” in another way, by disempowering citizens from entering into legal arrangements inspired by their own religious commitments. This paradox of religious freedom—the difficulty of reconciling the individual’s right from religion, while providing for the right to religious law is a paradox rooted in the modern state’s capacity and proclivity to codify and monopolize law. And, ironically, it is not modern state law but the Islamic legal tradition itself that may point the way out of this impasse.
Gotta run for now. Have a good morning, everyone.
236 | Eventual Carrion Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:35:04am |
re: #227 Stoatly
Charles gets a mention in comments at Harry's Place
armaros
...
Cat Stevens should be added to the list and Charles Johnson.
What the hell did Cat Stevens do? Just because he converted?
// Don't have to ask what Charles did.
237 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:36:59am |
re: #236 RayFerd
He said some pretty vile stuff awhile back.
239 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:40:14am |
re: #236 RayFerd
What the hell did Cat Stevens do? Just because he converted?
// Don't have to ask what Charles did.
He wanted Salman Rushdie killed for insulting Islam.
240 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:43:17am |
Good morning lizards from rainy central Virginia.
241 | CuriousLurker Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:48:53am |
re: #239 Killgore Trout
He wanted Salman Rushdie killed for insulting Islam.
I can't stick around to argue today, nor am I going to launch some big defense of a man I've never met, so take it or leave it as you will:
Cat Stevens Breaks His Silence
The Rushdie fatwa incident seems to be accepted as fact here, despite the fact that no one seems able to cite your endorsement of it. How did this rumor start?
I'm very sad that this seems to be the No. 1 question people want to discuss. I had nothing to do with the issue other than what the media created. I was innocently drawn into the whole controversy. So, after many years, I'm glad at least now that I have been given the opportunity to explain to the public and fans my side of the story in my own words. At a lecture, back in 1989, I was asked a question about blasphemy according to Islamic Law, I simply repeated the legal view according to my limited knowledge of the Scriptural texts, based directly on historical commentaries of the Qur'an. The next day the newspaper headlines read, "Cat Says, Kill Rushdie." I was abhorred, but what could I do? I was a new Muslim. If you ask a Bible student to quote the legal punishment of a person who commits blasphemy in the Bible, he would be dishonest if he didn't mention Leviticus 24:16.
242 | dragonfire1981 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:50:34am |
re: #241 CuriousLurker
Short version: Oooh baby baby, its a wild world...
243 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:51:00am |
re: #241 CuriousLurker
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Two months later Yusuf Islam appeared on a British television program, BBC's Hypotheticals, an occasional broadcast featuring a panel of notable guests to explore a hypothetical situation with moral, ethical and/or political dilemmas. In the episode ("A Satanic Scenario"), Islam had an exchange about the issue with the moderator and Queens Counsel Geoffrey Robertson.[5][6] Islam would later clarify the exchanges as "stupid and offensive jokes" made "in bad taste", but "part of a well-known British national trait ... dry humour on my part."[1]
Robertson: You don't think that this man deserves to die?
Y. Islam: Who, Salman Rushdie?
Robertson: Yes.
Y. Islam: Yes, yes.
Robertson: And do you have a duty to be his executioner?
Y. Islam: Uh, no, not necessarily, unless we were in an Islamic state and I was ordered by a judge or by the authority to carry out such an act - perhaps, yes.
[Some minutes later, Robertson on the subject of a protest where an effigy of the author is to be burned]
Robertson: Would you be part of that protest, Yusuf Islam, would you go to a demonstration where you knew that an effigy was going to be burned?
Y. Islam: I would have hoped that it'd be the real thingThe New York Times also reports this statement from the program: [If Rushdie turned up at my doorstep looking for help] I might ring somebody who might do more damage to him than he would like. I'd try to phone the Ayatollah Khomeini and tell him exactly where this man is.[7]
244 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:53:36am |
re: #241 CuriousLurker
He's given multiple contradictory explanations for why he said what he said, in my estimation. At times claiming he was joking, sometimes claiming he was just answering in the hypothetical.
245 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:53:58am |
Also:
On February 21, 1989, Yusuf Islam addressed students at Kingston University in London about his conversion to Islam and was asked about the controversy in the Muslim world and the fatwa calling for Salman Rushdie's execution. He replied, "He must be killed. The Qur'an makes it clear - if someone defames the prophet, then he must die." [4]
It's bad enough to stick with fundie interpretation of the Koran - which makes him a fundie himself - he said "He must be killed".
246 | darthstar Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:55:12am |
Mornin' everyone...so what are we all wrong about today? (other than putting folk singers on a shit-list over a book 90% of us never read)
247 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:55:36am |
re: #241 CuriousLurker
I understand he wants to walk it back but he wasn't just quoting scripture.
If he has really changed his mind I would think he'd be more up front about his previous statements. He still kind of avoids directly addressing what he really said and his interpretation of his religious obligations.
248 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:55:58am |
re: #244 Obdicut
Hypothetical is about the answer to the question at conference, the joking is about the program quoted above. In any case it is proper to say that he called for the death of Rushdie. If some fundie Christian said without qualification "our Holy Bible says: stone the gays!" we would see it as incitement.
249 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:56:12am |
re: #241 CuriousLurker
I can't stick around to argue today, nor am I going to launch some big defense of a man I've never met, so take it or leave it as you will:
Yeah. More of that turbo powered anti-Jihad blogger Cat Stevens derangement from the Bush years. That guy Armaros is another freak to Charles's freak magnet. I even find my name attached to ironically their never ending fatwa against us. Of course he wasn't even mentioned in the HUH piece. That was about Nugent. So that nut bring up Charles and Cat Stevens, and some other person, and they all for the bait. It's freaking dripping.
Meanwhile, down at the ranch:
#Breivik: "One has to provoke a witch-hunt against moderate cultural conservatives, and this happened beyond my wildest expectation."— Paul Brennan (@paulrbrennan) April 18, 2012
250 | lawhawk Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:57:21am |
Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. It's another gloriously warm and sunny day, and 1WTC continues heading skywards - it's close to being the tallest building in NYC, and they will soon be working on the spire that will make it the tallest skyscraper in North America.
That's not without ongoing problems elsewhere on the site. The Port Authority continues fighting over construction costs to build out the WTC Museum, so work's pretty much stopped on that project. Silverstein Properties isn't committing to building out 2 and 3 WTC until they get tenants lined up, so they're likely heading towards a stub construction (building podiums on which the towers can be built at a later date), but those costs are on Silverstein.
The Port Authority continues expending money on the transit hub that it simply can't afford to do so - at least not without siphoning funds from other more vital projects that can improve capacity. The transit hub would be a glorious bit of infrastructure from an architectural and design standpoint, but it's a facade. And since the Port Authority has been locked into that design, the costs have soared to $3.8 billion from $2.2, and that reflects nearly all the money being raised in the tolls/fare hikes enacted in the past 12 months. Those costs mean that other projects can't be done or are further delayed, even though they'd expand capacity, upgrade infrastructure, etc.
251 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:57:52am |
re: #245 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Also:
It's bad enough to stick with fundie interpretation of the Koran - which makes him a fundie himself - he said "He must be killed".
It's just a joke!
//
252 | CuriousLurker Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:59:25am |
re: #243 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Like I said, take it or leave it. The man has been involved with charitable work with children for years & years, and AFAIK he's not a terrorist and has been removed form the U.S. "watch list", so I'm not going to defend or condemn him for something he said decades any more than I would condemn some of the people here for things they said in the past.
253 | ProGunLiberal Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:59:27am |
re: #250 lawhawk
The Port Authority need a Federal Investigation for being a giant group of pricks.
Also, Good Morning Everyone!
254 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 7:59:43am |
Morning everyone.
I just can't get Cat Stevens out of my head today. For some reason, I'm also picturing Jane Fonda dancing to the groove.
255 | CuriousLurker Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:00:32am |
re: #247 Killgore Trout
I understand he wants to walk it back but he wasn't just quoting scripture.
[Embedded content] If he has really changed his mind I would think he'd be more up front about his previous statements. He still kind of avoids directly addressing what he really said and his interpretation of his religious obligations.
See my #252.
256 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:01:05am |
re: #254 iossarian
Morning everyone.
I just can't get Cat Stevens out of my head today. For some reason, I'm also picturing Jane Fonda dancing to the groove.
Jimmy Carter!
258 | CuriousLurker Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:02:28am |
re: #245 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Also:
It's bad enough to stick with fundie interpretation of the Koran - which makes him a fundie himself - he said "He must be killed".
Perhaps then. Muslim fundies don't do music. He's doing music now. Has been for a while.
259 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:03:39am |
Behold the Fly-tilla Swastikas!
Foreign activist draws swastika on BG Airport wall
A swastika was found drawn on the wall of a holding facility for illegal aliens at Ben Gurion Airport, where several foreign pro-Palestinian activists who arrived in Israel as part of the "Welcome to Palestine" fly-in protest were held.
The activist responsible for the drawing was deported back to his country of origin on Monday. "This was the gift the 'peace activists' left Israel," a source at the Immigration Authority said.The swastica was discovered by the detention facility employees after two foreign activists – citizens of France and Spain - were removed from the building.
The Immigration Authority said that a photograph of the defiled holding facility wall will be distributed to foreign media by the Foreign Ministry.
260 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:03:44am |
re: #251 NJDhockeyfan
It's just a joke!
//
Another religious conservative using that excuse? Can't be!
261 | Sheila Broflovski Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:07:07am |
re: #234 Mostly sane, most of the time.
Sorry for not reading more closely. I'm also scanning the news. I'm reading an article about how some moms can't afford to go to work because of day care costs.
I would have had to be making lots and lots of money to afford child care for five. Hollywood actress type money.
262 | allegro Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:07:34am |
Have y'all heard this news?
This is not snark. The House of Representatives has passed a climate change law that will require 50% less carbon production by 2050; phase out fossil fuel subsidies; make renewable power fully competitive with oil, gas and coal; cut dirty carbon emissions 30% by 2020 with international support; and ensure that 35% of the country's electricity will come from clean sources by 2024.
When this new law is approved by the Senate, it will be only the second such law in the world, putting the country in an elite global club, along with the United Kingdom.
How incredibly telling, and sad, that not a single person reading the two paragraphs above will believe a word of it -- because no such law could ever be passed by the United States Congress. But in fact, this law was passed on April 12 by the House of Representatives, of the United States -- of Mexico.
263 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:08:28am |
265 | CuriousLurker Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:09:32am |
re: #260 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Another religious conservative using that excuse? Can't be!
Yeah, good thing none of the ones here do that. //
BBL
267 | wrenchwench Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:14:03am |
re: #249 Gus
Yeah. More of that turbo powered anti-Jihad blogger Cat Stevens derangement from the Bush years. That guy Armaros is another freak to Charles's freak magnet. I even find my name attached to ironically their never ending fatwa against us. Of course he wasn't even mentioned in the HUH piece. That was about Nugent. So that nut bring up Charles and Cat Stevens, and some other person, and they all for the bait. It's freaking dripping.
He used to be here.
armaros
This user is blocked.
Karma: 20
Registered since: Aug 12, 2006 at 2:23 pmNo. of comments posted: 204
No. of links posted: 0
268 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:16:02am |
269 | ProGunLiberal Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:16:56am |
re: #262 allegro
Even Mexico is passing us now.
270 | wrenchwench Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:27:36am |
re: #258 CuriousLurker
Perhaps then. Muslim fundies don't do music. He's doing music now. Has been for a while.
I love this montage.
271 | Eventual Carrion Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:32:57am |
re: #252 CuriousLurker
Like I said, take it or leave it. The man has been involved with charitable work with children for years & years, and AFAIK he's not a terrorist and has been removed form the U.S. "watch list", so I'm not going to defend or condemn him for something he said decades any more than I would condemn some of the people here for things they said in the past.
They were pretty stupid comments. I remember hearing that people were all pissed about his conversion and he did support the call for SR head which was stupid (as much as any fundie of any stripe says).
272 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:33:59am |
re: #270 wrenchwench
I love this montage.
[Embedded content]
I seem to remember him even taking the stage with Steven Colbert last year.
273 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:34:53am |
re: #272 Expand Your Ground
Him and Stewart. According to Rushdie Stewart later called it a misstep in a phone conversation.
274 | Eventual Carrion Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:34:57am |
275 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:35:05am |
U.S. troops posed with body parts of Afghan bombers
An American soldier says he released the photos to the Los Angeles Times to draw attention to the safety risk of a breakdown in leadership and discipline. The Army has started a criminal investigation.
Somebody notify Dana Loesch.
276 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:36:31am |
re: #275 Gus
U.S. troops posed with body parts of Afghan bombers
Somebody notify Dana Loesch.
Classy!
//
278 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:37:42am |
279 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:38:31am |
280 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:40:36am |
281 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:41:05am |
283 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:43:03am |
re: #273 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Him and Stewart. According to Rushdie Stewart later called it a misstep in a phone conversation.
How did he get on, then? I was a bit perplexed myself. But he was the perfect counterbalance to Ozzy Osbourne
284 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:46:33am |
Major face-palm...
New low ‘blow’: Coke eyed at Secret Service ho-down
The Secret Service sure knows how to party.
Cocaine and several bottles of whiskey apparently fueled the elite agents’ boneheaded fling with about 20 hookers at a posh hotel in Cartagena, Colombia, a hotel staffer told The Post.
The employee responded to the trashed room with police and other Hotel El Caribe workers when one prostitute raised hell after a Secret Service member initially refused to pay her.
“When I went upstairs I walked into a messy room. The room was littered with two whiskey bottles — and a line of white powder, I believed to be cocaine, was on top of a round glass table in the room,” the staffer told The Post.
...
I have huge respect for the Secret Service but this is embarrassing.
285 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:48:20am |
Aboard the international space station — An image released by NASA taken from the intenational space station and dated March 28 shows the lights of the city of Moscow about 240 miles below. The view is to the north-northwest from a position about 100 miles west-northwest of Volgograd. A solar array panel of the space station is in the foreground. The green crescent across the image is the Aurora Borealis, and the white spike of light to the right is the approaching daybreak.
287 | CuriousLurker Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:48:51am |
re: #271 RayFerd
They were pretty stupid comments. I remember hearing that people were all pissed about his conversion and he did support the call for SR head which was stupid (as much as any fundie of any stripe says).
Yep, I never said his comments weren't stupid, but aside from his comments I don't know of any awful things he's done. I've said some pretty stupid, hateful, ugly things in my life. Most people have. Saying something stupid doesn't make someone an irredeemably horrible person unless it's an ongoing pattern. If it did, then the vast majority of us would have to be classified as perpetually unregenerate assholes.
288 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:49:19am |
re: #284 NJDhockeyfan
Major face-palm...
New low ‘blow’: Coke eyed at Secret Service ho-down
I have huge respect for the Secret Service but this is embarrassing.
It also demonstrates a serious lack of discipline. These guys are too important to be doing this shit. It's dangerously reckless.
289 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:50:01am |
re: #288 Killgore Trout
It also demonstrates a serious lack of discipline. These guys are too important to be doing this shit. It's dangerously reckless.
That's kind of ironic isn't it.
290 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:50:43am |
re: #288 Killgore Trout
It also demonstrates a serious lack of discipline. These guys are too important to be doing this shit. It's dangerously reckless.
Despite the War on Drugs, cocaine is as cheap as it ever was...and I can imagine in Cartagena it was even cheaper.
291 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:51:53am |
re: #287 CuriousLurker
The problem I see with the whole situation is that he didn't apologize in the end.
292 | Obdicut Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:52:54am |
re: #284 NJDhockeyfan
Well, don't believe something just because a hotel staffer told it to the NY POST.
If these allegations are true-- and I assume the Secret Service wouldn't act on a mere rumor-- these guys just threw away their entire careers for a shitty 80's style wild party.
293 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:53:26am |
re: #291 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
The problem I see with the whole situation is that he didn't apologize in the end.
How could he and still remain a Muslim?
294 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:53:58am |
re: #293 Expand Your Ground
How could he and still remain a Muslim?
Um? Like the other religions do.
295 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:55:26am |
re: #294 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
Um? Like the other religions do.
You mean like those "pseudo-Christians" who don't believe that gays should be put to death along with witches?
296 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:56:32am |
re: #295 Expand Your Ground
You mean like those "pseudo-Christians" who don't believe that gays should be put to death along with witches?
I mean like those Christians, Jews and Muslims who don't think that blasphemy merits capital punishment.
297 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 8:59:46am |
re: #296 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
I mean like those Christians, Jews and Muslims who don't think that blasphemy merits capital punishment.
You mean those heretics who reject a literalist & fundamentalist interpretation of their scriptures?
/
300 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:03:13am |
re: #297 Expand Your Ground
You mean those heretics who reject a literalist & fundamentalist interpretation of their scriptures?
/
No, there are no "heretics" for me since I'm not "inside" any religion.
301 | Shropshire_Slasher Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:04:05am |
re: #298 Gus
How do you know those young ladies aren't just walking to church?!
302 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:05:44am |
re: #300 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
No, there are no "heretics" for me since I'm not "inside" any religion.
Point is, Yusuf done placed himself firmly on the fundamentalist side and has not made any signs of moving out of it.
303 | Shropshire_Slasher Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:06:30am |
Levon Helm, the drummer and singer for The Band, whose Woodstock home has been the site of legendary Midnight Ramble concerts for more than seven years, is in "the final stages of his battle with cancer," according to a note on his website that is signed by his daughter and wife.
Read more: [Link: www.timesunion.com...]
304 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:07:31am |
re: #301 Tommy's cone of shame
How do you know those young ladies aren't just walking to church?!
If they are I will join it.
305 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:08:21am |
re: #302 Expand Your Ground
I haven't been paying any attention to his sayings, so I have no idea about his current views. As CL points out, he's hardly a fundie enough if he plays music. That said, he's not a victim of misrepresentation or vile attacks. He brought it on himself. All he had to say was "sorry, was full of shit, I don't think blasphemy merits capital punishment".
306 | Shropshire_Slasher Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:08:57am |
re: #304 NJDhockeyfan
Our most Blessed Mother of CFM Heels order?
307 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:09:52am |
re: #306 Tommy's cone of shame
Our most Blessed Mother of CFM Heels order?
I wonder how communion is offered?
308 | Eventual Carrion Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:10:22am |
re: #287 CuriousLurker
Yep, I never said his comments weren't stupid, but aside from his comments I don't know of any awful things he's done. I've said some pretty stupid, hateful, ugly things in my life. Most people have. Saying something stupid doesn't make someone an irredeemably horrible person unless it's an ongoing pattern. If it did, then the vast majority of us would have to be classified as perpetually unregenerate assholes.
That was how I felt and why I asked the question as to what he had done. I thought maybe he went off the deep end and had acted out (rather than spoke out) in some way I had not heard about.
309 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:13:06am |
Embarrassment in the NC Democrat party...
Five elected officials call on N.C. Dem chief to resign
RALEIGH — Five Democratic statewide elected officials have called on state Democratic Party Chairman David Parker to resign as party regulars have learned recently about alleged harassment within Democratic headquarters.
The Council of State members said Tuesday it was in the best interest of North Carolina and the party for Parker to step aside because he can no longer be as effective as he needs to be under the circumstances. Party executive director Jay Parmley resigned Sunday. He denied participating in any harassment of party employees.
Gov. Beverly Perdue told reporters Tuesday the situation was an internal party personnel matter and declined further comment.
Parker said again Tuesday he wouldn't resign.
The five are calling for Parker's resignation are Elaine Marshall, June Atkinson, Wayne Goodwin, Janet Cowell and Beth Wood.
310 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:15:53am |
312 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:16:43am |
Twitter Digest: Ted Nugent And Secret Service To Bang Whores, Barbecue A Dog bit.ly/IlUf68— Wonkette (@Wonkette) April 18, 2012
313 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:17:30am |
314 | darthstar Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:19:54am |
315 | darthstar Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:20:31am |
re: #312 Gus
It's unfair to whores to subject them to the Nuge.
316 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:20:37am |
317 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:21:00am |
re: #309 NJDhockeyfan
Embarrassment in the NC Democrat party...
318 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:21:11am |
Gosh, they are digging deep to find anything that might vaguely stick...
319 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:21:54am |
320 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:23:02am |
321 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:23:10am |
re: #316 NJDhockeyfan
Hollywood special effect studios couldn't beat it.
The blue "lighting" is what makes the shot.
322 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:23:28am |
re: #316 NJDhockeyfan
Hollywood special effect studios couldn't beat it.
Turns out that often reality looks more unbelievable than what the minds in the entertainment business can think up.
323 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:25:03am |
In interview, Kris Kobach says Romney campaign privately assured him he's still an immigration adviser: wapo.st/J3V7LO— Greg Sargent (@ThePlumLineGS) April 18, 2012
324 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:25:40am |
re: #322 Simply Sarah
Turns out that often reality looks more unbelievable than what the minds in the entertainment business can think up.
Turns out that there are real women who are more stunningly beautiful than any of the starlets the entertaiment industry comes up with...
325 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:26:55am |
In 1978, Nugent began a relationship with seventeen-year-old Hawaii native Pele Massa. Due to the age difference they could not marry so Nugent joined Massa's parents in signing documents to make himself her legal guardian, an arrangement that Spin magazine ranked in October 2000 as #63 on their list of the "100 Sleaziest Moments in Rock".
326 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:27:04am |
Shocka!
North Korea Says It Will Abandon Deal With U.S.
SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea said on Tuesday that it was abandoning an agreement it made in February with the United States, in which it promised to suspend uranium enrichment, nuclear tests and long-range missile tests.
...No longer bound by the deal, “we have thus become able to take necessary retaliatory measures,” the ministry said in the statement, which was carried by the state-run Korean Central News Agency. “The U.S. will be held wholly accountable for all the ensuing consequences.”
327 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:27:28am |
re: #324 Expand Your Ground
Turns out that there are real women who are more stunningly beautiful than any of the starlets the entertaiment industry comes up with...
I'm flattered, but let's not make this all about me.
/
328 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:28:03am |
329 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:28:08am |
IOW. In order to avoid statutory rape charges Ted Nugent made his girlfriend his "daughter."
330 | Kragar Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:28:45am |
So, I bust my butt to get into the office early for a meeting, only to learn its been cancelled, then they have a fire drill that I would have missed if I came in at my regular time.
Its one of those days.
331 | wrenchwench Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:28:45am |
re: #323 Gus
[Embedded content]
Have you ever had one of those old Etch-a-Sketches where you turn it over and shake and shake and shake, and you can still see the last drawing?
I have. Then it gets a crack in it and all the silver stuff comes out and you think you're gonna die. Good thing it's actually non-toxic. Unlike Kris Kobach.
332 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:29:27am |
re: #329 Gus
IOW. In order to avoid statutory rape charges Ted Nugent made his girlfriend his "daughter."
Can that be considered incest now?
333 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:30:48am |
re: #325 Gus
Wait. They couldn't get married, so instead they went for the alternative of entering into an unquestionably unethical relationship?
334 | wrenchwench Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:31:19am |
re: #330 Kragar
So, I bust my butt to get into the office early for a meeting, only to learn its been cancelled, then they have a fire drill that I would have missed if I came in at my regular time.
Its one of those days.
Sounds like two of those days, rolled into one.
335 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:31:23am |
*eyeroll* (not @ anyone in this thread)
336 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:31:25am |
re: #329 Gus
IOW. In order to avoid statutory rape charges Ted Nugent made his girlfriend his "daughter."
Defend the Sanctity of Marriage!!!
In any case, the practice of "adoption" is not unheard-of among Mormon "old believers" who still wish to practice polygamy semi-legally...
337 | lawhawk Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:31:48am |
All the things that turn most folks off to politics (being more involved that is) encapsulated on the NY Daily News website's front page:
Obama ate a dog, Romney strapped one to the roof: 2012 race sinks to new lows - Right hits back at gripes Mitt Romney strapped dog to car’s roof: Obama ate dog meat as a child!
'I'm a black Jew at a Nazi-Klan rally': Right-wing rocker feels persecuted for his Obama slams - 2nd Amendment enthusiast Ted Nugent is defending calling Obama 'evil' and 'America-hating.'
Note we're not talking substantive policy - but how dog whistles (literally and figuratively, particularly with item 1) are in full effect.
Anyone want to hazard a guess whether this will have the effect of depressing turnout (though most voters will probably be depressed about their choices regardless?)?
338 | wrenchwench Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:32:20am |
re: #335 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
*eyeroll* (not @ anyone in this thread)
Careful, they'll get stuck like that.
339 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:32:44am |
re: #335 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
*eyeroll* (not @ anyone in this thread)
Which? Piers Morgan is linking to Breitbart on Twitter. Toure crap. About him being a truther.
340 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:33:30am |
re: #339 Gus
Nah, some whiner.
341 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:34:10am |
re: #335 Capricious Casserole of Calamity
*eyeroll* (not @ anyone in this thread)
Just reduced to eyerolling at the entire world again, huh?
342 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:34:58am |
re: #341 Simply Sarah
The world's OK.
343 | wrenchwench Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:36:24am |
The bikes are very patient, but their owners are starting to call...
Later. (I couldn't pick just one.)
344 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:38:08am |
re: #339 Gus
Which? Piers Morgan is linking to Breitbart on Twitter. Toure crap. About him being a truther.
Boring...old news.
345 | darthstar Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:40:34am |
I just registered for Tour de Cure (Diabetes fundraiser) - I'll be doing the 50 mile course in Napa on May 6th. Nic is blue if you care to donate.
346 | ProGunLiberal Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:41:58am |
re: #325 Gus
I am so happy I started pointing that out. :D
347 | darthstar Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:42:08am |
re: #345 darthstar
I just registered for Tour de Cure (Diabetes fundraiser) - I'll be doing the 50 mile course in Napa on May 6th. Nic is blue if you care to donate.
Okay...secure links don't work here...I forgot. Tinyurled it to see if that works.
349 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:42:47am |
re: #345 darthstar
I just registered for Tour de Cure (Diabetes fundraiser) - I'll be doing the 50 mile course in Napa on May 6th. Nic is blue if you care to donate.
Oops! Google Chrome could not find https
Suggestions:
Search on Google:
350 | darthstar Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:43:19am |
re: #349 NJDhockeyfan
Oops! Google Chrome could not find https
Suggestions:
Search on Google:
Try my nic now (not in that first post though)
351 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:44:35am |
352 | ProGunLiberal Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:45:47am |
353 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:46:19am |
re: #352 ProGunLiberal
Wasn't Piers Morgan some idiot airhead when over in Britain?
Why did we get him?
CNN
Actually they're all from CNN.
354 | Kragar Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:46:19am |
Next years Coachella line up has been announced.
356 | ProGunLiberal Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:48:28am |
re: #353 Gus
He probably supported the EDL when he lived in Britain.
357 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:48:53am |
358 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:49:57am |
re: #337 lawhawk
Note we're not talking substantive policy
There's usually very little talk about "substantive policy" anymore. Each side gives out vague outlines peppered with sound bites which in turn become either
A) their campaign slogans
or (if mispoken)
B) used as fodder to beat them up with their own words
Regardless
hazard a guess whether this will have the effect of depressing turnout
Whats been the average of registered voters casting a ballot over (say) the last 30 years or so. iiirc it's below 50% and falling each election season,
359 | makeitstop Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:50:38am |
re: #313 Expand Your Ground
As long as they shoot and butcher the dog themselves.
/
Get Fred Malek on the phone. He's got valuable experience.
360 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:52:15am |
re: #356 ProGunLiberal
He probably supported the EDL when he lived in Britain.
Probably not. He's actually a liberal. Climate change and all that. But, I think he's attracting a substantial Breitbart following with his feud with Toure. Including his infatuation with Dana Loesch. It's about getting an audience -- money talks. The truther stuff on Toure's part is stupid. Piers though has taken this over top. CNN's is kind of stupid though. Their website news is good but their "shows" are essentially worthless.
361 | Sheila Broflovski Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:52:37am |
re: #345 darthstar
I just registered for Tour de Cure (Diabetes fundraiser) - I'll be doing the 50 mile course in Napa on May 6th. Nic is blue if you care to donate.
Has Komen sued them for using the word "Cure"?
363 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:57:00am |
re: #318 Expand Your Ground
Gosh, they are digging deep to find anything that might vaguely stick...
And that proves Obama's a bad president how. The whole construct that the RWNJs had constructed of Obama as being this secretly anti-American sleeper is stupid if not hilarious.
364 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 9:59:19am |
re: #363 HappyWarrior
And that proves Obama's a bad president how. The whole construct that the RWNJs had constructed of Obama as being this secretly anti-American sleeper is stupid if not hilarious.
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree! Or whatever fruit they have in Kenya.
365 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:00:32am |
re: #364 Simply Sarah
You know what cracks me up is when they refer to him as "The Kenyan." Ooh he's part Kenyan. So scary!
366 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:00:41am |
re: #337 lawhawk
Note we're not talking substantive policy - but how dog whistles (literally and figuratively, particularly with item 1) are in full effect.
Anyone want to hazard a guess whether this will have the effect of depressing turnout (though most voters will probably be depressed about their choices regardless?)?
I suppose we may move on to policy issues eventually. Hopefully the debates will help introduce more substance. I don't know if it will effect turnout. Discussions about Dogs, wives and nonsense about who is more out of touch is what the people want. It might just be an election based on selective partisan finger pointing.
367 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:01:01am |
re: #363 HappyWarrior
And that proves Obama's a bad president how. The whole construct that the RWNJs had constructed of Obama as being this secretly anti-American sleeper is stupid if not hilarious.
They quietly leave out the fact that the British had just gone through a bit of a nasty business with Kenya and certainly would have looked on anyone coming out of there with a jaundiced eye. And they had ties to a "Kenyan nationalist".
We know what that means: Mau-Maus running amok, butchering whites all across America while Obama denies us our gun rights!
And Ted Nugent will be in prison and unable to defend us!!!
368 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:02:24am |
re: #365 HappyWarrior
You know what cracks me up is when they refer to him as "The Kenyan." Ooh he's part Kenyan. So scary!
It means he'll be too fast to be caught once he destroys the country, clearly.
369 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:03:47am |
re: #366 Killgore Trout
I suppose we may move on to policy issues eventually. Hopefully the debates will help introduce more substance. I don't know if it will effect turnout. Discussions about Dogs, wives and nonsense about who is more out of touch is what the people want. It might just be an election based on selective partisan finger pointing.
There's a policy issue out there this very morning - Romney advisor draws bright line on immigration amnesty.
Loads of policy issues being discussed if you pay attention. "Let Detroit Fail" etc.
370 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:04:25am |
re: #366 Killgore Trout
I suppose we may move on to policy issues eventually. Hopefully the debates will help introduce more substance. I don't know if it will effect turnout. Discussions about Dogs, wives and nonsense about who is more out of touch is what the people want. It might just be an election based on selective partisan finger pointing.
Well, that's sort of the thing. Based on what appears to be the current Republican party platform, trying to run on substance seems like it would be a no go.
371 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:05:19am |
Breaking election coverage!
Dogs Against Romney Defends Obama Over Dog Consumption Revelations
How will this effect the swing states? Which side will Florida take in the dog wars? I can't wait until the pollsters start adding dog questions. Stay tuned for updates in the developing story.
372 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:05:22am |
re: #369 iossarian
There's a policy issue out there this very morning - Romney advisor draws bright line on immigration amnesty.
Loads of policy issues being discussed if you pay attention. "Let Detroit Fail" etc.
Or that Romney won't give a statement if he supports Lily Ledbetter. I imagine for many women voters, his stance on that issue is important.
373 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:06:57am |
re: #372 HappyWarrior
Or that Romney won't give a statement if he supports Lily Ledbetter. I imagine for many women voters, his stance on that issue is important.
For many, but not all. It's not important to me because I long ago made up my mind on how I was voting and learning just how little he thinks of people like me won't make a difference.
374 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:07:11am |
re: #370 Simply Sarah
Well, that's sort of the thing. Based on what appears to be the current Republican party platform, trying to run on substance seems like it would be a no go.
I agree. Although I see Mitt as a moderate he'll be hard pressed to reconcile his record with the Republican party platform. He's more than happy to have this election focus on dogs and wives. It's a huge gift for the Republicans.
375 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:09:04am |
re: #374 Killgore Trout
I agree. Although I see Mitt as a moderate he'll be hard pressed to reconcile his record with the Republican party platform. He's more than happy to have this election focus on dogs and wives. It's a huge gift for the Republicans.
So what you're saying is: the fact that the media is focusing on trivial stuff rather than policy is an example of bias in favor of a Republican politician?
376 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:09:50am |
re: #371 Killgore Trout
Breaking election coverage!
Dogs Against Romney Defends Obama Over Dog Consumption Revelations
How will this effect the swing states? Which side will Florida take in the dog wars? I can't wait until the pollsters start adding dog questions. Stay tuned for updates in the developing story.
The Dog Debates are going to be one wild ride!
377 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:09:58am |
re: #373 Simply Sarah
For many, but not all. It's not important to me because I long ago made up my mind on how I was voting and learning just how little he thinks of people like me won't make a difference.
Gotcha. I'm not impressed with him at all really. Never have been.
378 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:10:55am |
re: #374 Killgore Trout
I agree. Although I see Mitt as a moderate he'll be hard pressed to reconcile his record with the Republican party platform. He's more than happy to have this election focus on dogs and wives. It's a huge gift for the Republicans.
Incidentally, I like the attempt to dismiss the focus on Republicans' anti-women policies as a distraction. When you're complaining about the lack of attention paid to actual policies, that's a neat trick.
379 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:11:28am |
Dog on roof of car vs eating dog meat.
Discuss...
380 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:11:41am |
re: #376 NJDhockeyfan
The Dog Debates are going to be one wild ride!
You know how politics work
Most deals are done in smokey back rooms!!
381 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:11:45am |
re: #374 Killgore Trout
I agree. Although I see Mitt as a moderate he'll be hard pressed to reconcile his record with the Republican party platform. He's more than happy to have this election focus on dogs and wives. It's a huge gift for the Republicans.
Well, as I've said before I see the current "mainstream" Democratic party as generally center-left to center-right (And sometimes outright on the right), whereas I see the GOP as going from fairly to the right to way the fuck out there. As such, even a so called moderate Republican is someone I consider as being rather on the right.
That and I can't tell what the hell Mitt is anymore. He ran as a moderate Republican here for governor, but seems to have reversed or otherwise disowned most of the positions he took while running/serving here.
382 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:12:07am |
re: #375 iossarian
So what you're saying is: the fact that the media is focusing on trivial stuff rather than policy is an example of bias in favor of a Republican politician?
I don't think it's pro-Republican bias but the Republicans are more than happy to take advantage of the situation.
383 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:13:28am |
re: #379 NJDhockeyfan
Dog on roof of car vs eating dog meat.
Discuss...
re: #371 Killgore Trout
Breaking election coverage!
Dogs Against Romney Defends Obama Over Dog Consumption Revelations
How will this effect the swing states? Which side will Florida take in the dog wars? I can't wait until the pollsters start adding dog questions. Stay tuned for updates in the developing story.
Ironic that the right-wingers are pushing the "dog vs. dog" line in virtually the same breath as complaining about the lack of focus on serious policy issues.
Here's a suggestion: let's not mention the dog thing on LGF again, and just focus on how Mitt wants to deny naturalization to families who have spent years working hard to contribute to American society?
384 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:14:09am |
More dog news...
385 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:14:20am |
re: #383 iossarian
re: #371 Killgore Trout
Ironic that the right-wingers are pushing the "dog vs. dog" line in virtually the same breath as complaining about the lack of focus on serious policy issues.
Here's a suggestion: let's not mention the dog thing on LGF again, and just focus on how Mitt wants to deny naturalization to families who have spent years working hard to contribute to American society?
It's an Obama eat dog world out there!
/ Sorry
386 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:15:30am |
re: #383 iossarian
re: #371 Killgore Trout
Ironic that the right-wingers are pushing the "dog vs. dog" line in virtually the same breath as complaining about the lack of focus on serious policy issues.
Here's a suggestion: let's not mention the dog thing on LGF again, and just focus on how Mitt wants to deny naturalization to families who have spent years working hard to contribute to American society?
Good luck with that. I'd like it but this is what gets people excited and you can't convince them it's a bad idea.
387 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:16:04am |
388 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:16:09am |
My new puppy will never sit on the roof of my SUV nor will it be the main course at my dinner table.
Just sayin'
389 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:16:41am |
re: #384 NJDhockeyfan
More dog news...
NRO!?!?! White nationalist anti-Obama wingnut propaganda!
///Derpstorm
390 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:16:45am |
re: #388 NJDhockeyfan
My new puppy will never sit on the roof of my SUV nor will it be the main course at my dinner table.
Just sayin'
I hope you have its long-form pedigree roll....
391 | NJDhockeyfan Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:16:51am |
392 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:17:24am |
re: #386 Killgore Trout
Good luck with that. I'd like it but this is what gets people excited and you can't convince them it's a bad idea.
OK. I'll take you at your word that you're interested in talking policy.
What is it about Mitt Romney's policy positions that makes you think that he's a moderate?
393 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:17:36am |
You say Mitt mistreated Seamus, but he cared for and loved him! President Obama would have simply had him for dinner! Who's the real danger to dogs now?
394 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:17:55am |
re: #387 HappyWarrior
Professional bizzare foot eater?
he has a show called Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern on The Travel Channel
[Link: www.travelchannel.com...]
395 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:18:05am |
re: #383 iossarian
re: #371 Killgore Trout
Ironic that the right-wingers are pushing the "dog vs. dog" line in virtually the same breath as complaining about the lack of focus on serious policy issues.
Here's a suggestion: let's not mention the dog thing on LGF again, and just focus on how Mitt wants to deny naturalization to families who have spent years working hard to contribute to American society?
That's a very valid criticism and one he should be hit hard on.
396 | lawhawk Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:18:50am |
re: #379 NJDhockeyfan
Dog on roof of car vs eating dog meat.
Discuss...
Can't discuss until I've done both. /
Considering that some cultures will eat stuff that others wont, I'm not particularly shocked that Indonesians can and do eat dog, or that Obama did so while in Indonesia (and it's not like this is some surprise or amazing revelation - it was in his book that came out years back).
However, American values on animal cruelty are something that most people are familiar with (being in America and all) - and most wouldn't treat their own pets like that.
397 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:19:20am |
re: #394 sattv4u2
he has a show called Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern on The Travel Channel
[Link: www.travelchannel.com...]
I figured he had a show but the title "professional bizarre food" eater amused me.
398 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:22:00am |
re: #392 iossarian
OK. I'll take you at your word that you're interested in talking policy.
What is it about Mitt Romney's policy positions that makes you think that he's a moderate?
Well, from the videos posted on LGF last week about Mitt's wife I learned that Mitt helped found a very successful daycare company to help working families and that Obama and Mitt have identical views on welfare reform. I don't think Mitt is a radical wingnut.
400 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:25:02am |
I don't know about anyone else here but I had to Google "Seamus" yesterday. Didn't even know who or what that was.
401 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:25:06am |
402 | Shropshire_Slasher Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:25:28am |
re: #388 NJDhockeyfan
What about in the back of a pickup?
I'm guilty of that.
Tethered of course, I'm not a monster!
403 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:25:45am |
re: #401 Killgore Trout
Joe Scarborough Loses It Laughing Over News That Obama Has Eaten Dog Meat (video)
Wait a minute. I thought you were just pleading for people to stop talking about this dog stuff? Interesting.
404 | MittDoesNotCompute Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:25:57am |
405 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:26:35am |
re: #400 Gus
I don't know about anyone else here but I had to Google "Seamus" yesterday. Didn't even know who or what that was.
I remember hearing it back in 08. I'm not going to vote against him because of that but he looked like a jerk the way he told the story.
406 | Shropshire_Slasher Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:26:39am |
re: #399 sattv4u2
I can't say what dog tastes like, but I do know that woodchuck tastes like dirt.
407 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:26:46am |
re: #403 Gus
Wait a minute. I thought you were just pleading for people to stop talking about this dog stuff? Interesting.
Outrageous!
408 | A Mom Anon Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:26:57am |
Sigh.
Obama ate dog meat as a kid. In Indonesia. Which,if part of the family meal,he probably didn't have much say in. Ya know,if he wanted to eat.
Mitt on the other hand was a grown man when he chose to strap Seamus on the roof of the car,not once,but twice. Even if one had the poor judgement to do it the first time,after the poor dog crapped himself,it might have been wise to put the luggage on the roof and the dog in the car. Buy some towels and make a place for the critter. LIKE NORMAL PEOPLE. FFS.
409 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:26:58am |
re: #398 Killgore Trout
Well, from the videos posted on LGF last week about Mitt's wife I learned that Mitt helped found a very successful daycare company to help working families and that Obama and Mitt have identical views on welfare reform. I don't think Mitt is a radical wingnut.
Deep down? Probably not, at least on most things. However, I'm rather less concerned with Mitt's inner thoughts and character than I am with how he's likely to serve as president. And I have a lot of trouble seeing him do much to stand up to the real actual radicals.
411 | allegro Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:27:08am |
re: #398 Killgore Trout
Well, from the videos posted on LGF last week about Mitt's wife as policy advisor I learned that Mitt helped found a very
successfulprofitable daycare company to helpworking familiesenrich shareholders and that Obama and Mitt haveidenticalone similar viewson a particular idea for welfare reform. I don't think Mitt is a radical wingnut.
He is today. Maybe tomorrow? Who knows?
412 | Kragar Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:27:40am |
re: #403 Gus
Wait a minute. I thought you were just pleading for people to stop talking about this dog stuff? Interesting.
Thats all pretty standard.
414 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:28:24am |
re: #411 allegro
He is today. Maybe tomorrow? Who knows?
And therein lies Etchy's problem. He runs away from a past position and even success if he thinks it will make him look more "severely conservative."
415 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:30:18am |
re: #403 Gus
Wait a minute. I thought you were just pleading for people to stop talking about this dog stuff? Interesting.
"pleading"!?!?!
Saying "I'd like it" is "pleading"?
As you said ,, Interesting.
416 | Kragar Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:30:28am |
417 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:32:32am |
re: #398 Killgore Trout
Well, from the videos posted on LGF last week about Mitt's wife I learned that Mitt helped found a very successful daycare company to help working families and that Obama and Mitt have identical views on welfare reform. I don't think Mitt is a radical wingnut.
He started a business. How does that "help working families"? Or was he making donations to reduce their cost of using the service? Is Wal-Mart "helping working families"?
If you think Obama and Mitt have "identical views on welfare reform" I don't know what to say. Mitt has endorsed the House GOP budget, which is a million miles away from the kind of thing Obama is talking about.
Maybe you should stick to the dog thing after all.
[Link: www.politico.com...]
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
418 | Eventual Carrion Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:33:21am |
419 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:33:23am |
420 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:34:19am |
re: #415 sattv4u2
"pleading"!?!?!
Saying "I'd like it" is "pleading"?
As you said ,, Interesting.
Uhhhhh. Damn, you got me.
421 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:35:22am |
re: #419 sattv4u2
He started a business. How does that "help working families"?
{sigh}
By that rationale, anyone starting a business is helping working families.
Which might be your point of view, I don't know. I tend to think of that as normal economic activity, if it's in your own interest, i.e., you're making money out of the business.
I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.
422 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:35:40am |
re: #420 Gus
Uhhh. Damn, you got me.
Not a matter of getting anyone
just seemed to be a leap from 'I'd like it''
423 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:36:06am |
re: #422 sattv4u2
Not a matter of getting anyone
just seemed to be a leap from 'I'd like it''
I'll get you some smelling salts.
424 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:36:36am |
re: #421 iossarian
By that rationale, anyone starting a business is helping working families.
Which might be your point of view, I don't know. I tend to think of that as normal economic activity, if it's in your own interest, i.e., you're making money out of the business.
I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.
What business are we referring to?
425 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:38:37am |
re: #424 Gus
What business are we referring to?
People are holding up Romney's child care company as an example of him "helping working families".
I'm just pointing out that for me, if he's making money out of the company, it's a self-interested economic venture. For me, "helping" people pretty much implies that the action you're taking doesn't directly benefit your own self.
426 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:39:23am |
re: #425 iossarian
People are holding up Romney's child care company as an example of him "helping working families".
I'm just pointing out that for me, if he's making money out of the company, it's a self-interested economic venture. For me, "helping" people pretty much implies that the action you're taking doesn't directly benefit your own self.
OK. I just forgot the name of that child care company. Do you remember it?
427 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:40:52am |
re: #426 Gus
OK. I just forgot the name of that child care company. Do you remember it?
No, I think it's pretty obscure - references seem to go back to him mentioning it in 1994?
He was an anarcho-syndicalist that year, FWIW. Except for the second two weeks in August, when he was a neo-Filibertian.
428 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:41:07am |
re: #424 Gus
What business are we referring to?
That daycare company. I forget the name. He mentions it in his speech that Charles posted.
429 | Sheila Broflovski Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:41:18am |
re: #426 Gus
OK. I just forgot the name of that child care company. Do you remember it?
It was something "Horizon." Deepwater? Oh wait...//
430 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:41:39am |
re: #429 Learned Mother of Zion
It was something "Horizon." Deepwater? Oh wait...//
Found it. Bright Horizons Family Solutions
431 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:41:44am |
re: #425 iossarian
People are holding up Romney's child care company as an example of him "helping working families".
I'm just pointing out that for me, if he's making money out of the company, it's a self-interested economic venture. For me, "helping" people pretty much implies that the action you're taking doesn't directly benefit your own self.
Agree with that assessment and I think it's why we see so many business majors in college. My Dad started his to make more money for our family. Didn't work out unfortunately.
432 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:42:09am |
433 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:42:45am |
re: #421 iossarian
I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.
So,,, nothing qualifies as "helping working families" because everything to some degree "directly benefit(s) themselves"
434 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:43:47am |
re: #430 Gus
Found it. Bright Horizons Family Solutions
From their website, they look like the company that your employer uses to foist low-quality backup care on you rather than providing sick leave to look after your kids.
Helping working families increase their productivity for no extra pay!
435 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:44:00am |
re: #432 Killgore Trout
That sounds about right.
Here. You'll get a kick out of this.
Romney's Job Creation
Mitt Romney’s Job Creation Record: Supporting Companies with Radical Social Policies!!!!
436 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:44:38am |
re: #433 sattv4u2
I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.So,,, nothing qualifies as "helping working families" because everything to some degree "directly benefit(s) themselves"
No, if you give money to a charity that provides discounted day care for low income families, then you are "helping working families".
See how it works now?
437 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:45:09am |
re: #436 iossarian
No, if you give money to a charity that provides discounted day care for low income families, then you are "helping working families".
See how it works now?
Tax write off
See how THAT works
NEXT!
438 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:45:14am |
Whoboy!
Another Bain & Co. protégé, Bright Horizons, is a day-care center chain that receives the 100% rating from HRC. This means they agree to employ transgenders/cross-dressers/transsexuals without discrimination, as well as provide their “transitioning” health costs. What about little children exposed to such disturbing perversions? It does not appear this was a problem for Romney or his former company. (Of course, he can always claim ignorance of the policy.) “Bain Capital helped guide hundreds of companies on a successful course, including Staples, Bright Horizons Family Solutions, Domino’s Pizza, Sealy, Brookstone, and The Sports Authority.”
439 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:45:57am |
re: #435 Gus
Here. You'll get a kick out of this.
Romney's Job Creation
Mitt Romney’s Job Creation Record: Supporting Companies with Radical Social Policies!!!
Heh.
440 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:46:14am |
re: #438 Gus
Whoboy!
And this is why I almost pity Mitt, these are the nuts who he has to kiss ass to.
441 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:46:25am |
re: #437 sattv4u2
Tax write off
See how THAT works
NEXT!
Sigh. The tax write off (for most individuals) only reduces your taxable income. So your net income after the donation would still be less than if you had not donated, and paid the marginal rate of tax.
442 | Killgore Trout Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:48:32am |
re: #436 iossarian
No, if you give money to a charity that provides discounted day care for low income families, then you are "helping working families".
See how it works now?
See Mitt and Obama's views on welfare reform. They'd both rather pay more to provide welfare recipients daycare expenses in order to return them to the workforce.
444 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:48:46am |
re: #441 iossarian
Sigh. The tax write off (for most individuals) only reduces your taxable income. So your net income after the donation would still be less than if you had not donated, and paid the marginal rate of tax.
So it directly benefits that person
446 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:51:45am |
re: #435 Gus
Here. You'll get a kick out of this.
Romney's Job Creation
Mitt Romney’s Job Creation Record: Supporting Companies with Radical Social Policies!!!
Ugh. That reads like a piece off MassResistance. Oh, and look, there's a link to them. Colour me shocked. For everything people say about the Commonwealth being so liberal, our bigots are top/bottom (take your pick) rate.
447 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:52:21am |
re: #444 sattv4u2
So it directly benefits that person
Please try to read and understand. Assume person A makes $100K a year and pays $25K in tax (we'll assume a flat tax rate of 25% but the same argument works with a more complex marginal system).
If person A does not make a donation, his net income is $75K.
If person A donates $20K, his pre-tax income is now $80K. He then pays 25% in tax, which equates to $20K. After tax, his net income is $60K, $15K less than it was without the donation. So he has avoided $5K in tax but is still worse off than before.
Beyond this simple example, do you really believe, as you said above, that there is nothing that people do that doesn't directly benefit themselves?
448 | HappyWarrior Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:52:44am |
re: #446 Simply Sarah
Ugh. That reads like a piece off MassResistance. Oh, and look, there's a link to them. Colour me shocked. For everything people say about the Commonwealth being so liberal, our bigots are top/bottom (take your pick) rate.
What's MassResitance if you don't mind me asking.
449 | Gus Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:53:00am |
re: #446 Simply Sarah
Ugh. That reads like a piece off MassResistance. Oh, and look, there's a link to them. Colour me shocked. For everything people say about the Commonwealth being so liberal, our bigots are top/bottom (take your pick) rate.
Yeah. That's some crazy shit right there. I used to see the same type of crap about McCain back in 2008. The far-right lunatics.
450 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:53:16am |
re: #442 Killgore Trout
See Mitt and Obama's views on welfare reform. They'd both rather pay more to provide welfare recipients daycare expenses in order to return them to the workforce.
Which is funny, since I thought the Romney's were all for stay at home parents...
451 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:55:29am |
re: #442 Killgore Trout
See Mitt and Obama's views on welfare reform. They'd both rather pay more to provide welfare recipients daycare expenses in order to return them to the workforce.
Again, this is one fairly minor aspect of "welfare reform". To extrapolate that to saying that Mitt holds the same views on Welfare as Obama is ludicrous.
I mean, where would Mitt find the money to pay for even this small part of a welfare program, given his adherence to GOP tax cut orthodoxy?
452 | Simply Sarah Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:55:40am |
re: #448 HappyWarrior
What's MassResitance if you don't mind me asking.
MassResistance is an utterly abominable and disgusting anti-gay and anti-trans hate group based here in Massachusetts. Even for a hate group, they're pretty open and vile about how they go about things. If you really want to see for yourself, their website is here, but be warned that it's a nasty place.
453 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:57:38am |
re: #447 iossarian
The decision to donate the 20K, as benevolent as the intent may be, still results in a benefit to themselves. No, not in the "bottom line" (of course he'd be in total better off is he didn't donate) but to say he didn't benefit from it is wrong
AND ,, it goes beyond a monetary benefit, which you don't even seem to consider, instead making it an absolute dollars and cents issue
There are benefits beyond that
454 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 10:58:37am |
And on that note, off to the Wonderful World of Conference Call
455 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:02:16am |
re: #453 sattv4u2
The decision to donate the 20K, as benevolent as the intent may be, still results in a benefit to themselves. No, not in the "bottom line" (of course he'd be in total better off is he didn't donate) but to say he didn't benefit from it is wrong
This statement by itself is absurd. In economic terms the person is better off not donating.
AND ,, it goes beyond a monetary benefit, which you don't even seem to consider, instead making it an absolute dollars and cents issue
I'm making a clear distinction between economic benefit and the psychological benefits of helping someone, which are obviously real. My point is that, the more you benefit economically from an action, the less you can be said to be "helping" someone via that action. That just seems to me to be the way most people use that word.
If someone sells a drowning man a life vest for a million dollars, we don't typically say that was a very helpful thing to do.
457 | AK-47% Wed, Apr 18, 2012 11:21:04am |
re: #409 Simply Sarah
Deep down? Probably not, at least on most things. However, I'm rather less concerned with Mitt's inner thoughts and character than I am with how he's likely to serve as president. And I have a lot of trouble seeing him do much to stand up to the real actual radicals.
The point was made that his hands will be really tied, as he will fear a revolt within his own party.
458 | sattv4u2 Wed, Apr 18, 2012 12:27:14pm |
re: #455 iossarian
the more you benefit economically from an action, the less you can be said to be "helping" someone via that action
Now you're talking degrees, as opposed to prior when you were talking in absolutes
I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.
459 | iossarian Wed, Apr 18, 2012 1:05:06pm |
re: #458 sattv4u2
the more you benefit economically from an action, the less you can be said to be "helping" someone via that action
Now you're talking degrees, as opposed to prior when you were talking in absolutes
I reserve phrases like "helping working families" for people who do stuff that doesn't directly benefit themselves, for other people.
Oh for fucks' sake.
How about this: to the extent that an action does not economically benefit the person carrying it out, that action can be said to be "helping" someone else.
Thus, to the extent that Mitt Romney was making money from his child care business, he cannot be said to have been "helping working families" with it.