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Bobby Jindal’s Anti-Science School Voucher Program Ruled Unconstitutional

The forces of atavism suffer a setback in Louisiana
Politics • Views: 28,868

Here’s some excellent news from Louisiana, where a state judge has ruled that Gov. Bobby Jindal’s outrageous school voucher program giving state funding to private religious schools that teach creationism and climate change denial is unconstitutional. Damn right.

One of Gov. Bobby Jindal’s signature accomplishments, a private school tuition voucher program, was ruled unconstitutional by a Louisiana judge Friday, the Associated Press reports:

State Judge Tim Kelley said Friday that the program improperly diverts money allocated through Louisiana’s public school funding formula to private schools. He also said it unconstitutionally diverts local tax dollars to private schools.

Kelley ruled in a lawsuit backed by teacher unions and school boards seeking to shut down the voucher program and other changes that would funnel more money away from traditional public schools.

Jindal (R-La.), who is frequently touted as a potential contender in the 2016 Republican presidential race, pushed the legislation through the state’s legislature in April. Two statewide teachers’ associations and a group of school boards filed legal challenges shortly thereafter.

Jindal said in a statement Friday afternoon that he would appeal the ruling. 
In addition to the lawsuits, the program was criticized for letting students attend religious schools that teach Young Earth Creationism — the belief that the universe is no older than 10,000 years. 

Jindal’s response to this setback for his religious fundamentalist agenda:

‘Today’s ruling is wrong-headed and a travesty for parents across Louisiana who want nothing more than for their children to have an equal opportunity at receiving a great education,’ Jindal said. ‘This ruling changes nothing for the students currently in the program. All along, we expected this to be decided by the Louisiana Supreme Court.’

Make no mistake — the underlying cause behind Gov. Jindal’s voucher program is to erase the boundary between church and state, especially (but not limited to) the teaching of the scientific theory of evolution. He may be trying to position himself as a “moderate Republican” lately, but Jindal has been more successful than any other Republican politician at blurring the lines and legitimizing the long range anti-science educational agenda of the religious right.

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281 comments

1 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:55:45pm

And speaking of non-moderate "Moderates", the New GOP is ... just like the Old GOP:

Virginia GOP candidates hold annual Advance gathering

[...]

The annual gathering known as the Republican Advance kicked off with a smorgasbord battle waged by GOP candidates for governor, lieutenant governor and attorney general, and featuring something unexpected on the menu: Oliver North.


The retired Marine and Iran-contra figure headlined the hospitality suite for Pete Snyder, a technology entrepreneur and recent Fox news commentator running for lieutenant governor. While attendees swooned over state Sen. Mark D. Obenshain’s brisket and praised the quality of Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli II’s cannoli, North’s surprise appearance was the talk of the annual gathering.

“Just bringing Ollie — that is impressive,” said Larry Cirignano of Alexandria, state director of American Catholics for Religious Freedom. “But ask me the guy’s name who did it.”

[...]

“Virginia’s a conservative state, and when we stick up for our beliefs, and our values, and our principles . . . we win elections,” state GOP Chairman Pat Mullins told the gathering at breakfast Saturday. “When we choose to run like Democrats, we lose elections because we haven’t given anybody a choice.”

Cuccinelli, who received a standing ovation before and after his remarks at breakfast, hammered home the position that Virginia Republicans need to embrace their traditional platform.

“Conservatism is not dead. It is not old. It is not worn out. It is still alive and thriving,” he said. “. . . We’re not going to lie down. We’re going to get right back up.”

Not everyone was ready to fall in line. Among the 650 activists at the weekend-long event were some who would have preferred Bolling over Cuccinelli, partly because they think his less-confrontational style might have played better with swing voters. Many were still talking about how Bolling had exited the race, with statements that he would not endorse Cuccinelli and hints that he might consider an independent bid. His actions — and his decision not to attend this weekend’s events — seemed to loom larger for the crowd than Republican Mitt Romney’s failure to win the White House just weeks before.

[...]

Cuccinelli is famous for, among other things, his witch hunt against Penn State scientist Mann. And yes, he's a creationist.

For the VA GOP to bring in Ollie North and call it an "Advance" says something.

I for one do not see the religious conservatives giving up ground in the GOP willingly.

2 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:56:36pm

Heh heh heh. Of course it was.

It wasn't Constitutional.

Hail the hero of 2016!

3 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:57:29pm

The hardest part about a possible modern movie remake about the Scopes trial may be doing it without air conditioning.

4 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:59:28pm

re: #1 freetoken

And speaking of non-moderate "Moderates", the New GOP is ... just like the Old GOP:

Virginia GOP candidates hold annual Advance gathering

Cuccinelli is famous for, among other things, his witch hunt against Penn State scientist Mann. And yes, he's a creationist.

For the VA GOP to bring in Ollie North and call it an "Advance" says something.

I for one do not see the religious conservatives giving up ground in the GOP willingly.

Hells, no! They have the power at the precinct level and are going to fight fight fight. Gawd help the GOP "moderate" in the future.

5 Hal_10000  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:05:15pm

Well, now they can go back to not learning evolution or climate science in the public schools.

6 jaunte  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:11:56pm

Kenneth R. Miller:

In a 2008 interview on CBS’s Face the Nation, Jindal said that he wanted students “to be presented with the best thinking, I want them to be able to make decisions for themselves, I want them to see the best data. … I’d certainly want my kids to be exposed to the very best science. I don't want any facts or theories or explanations to be withheld from them because of political correctness.” The problem, of course, is that if the “best science,” in the view of a local school board, includes creationism, the students in that school system are being cheated. Presenting an idea that has no scientific support as if it were the equal of a thoroughly tested scientific theory is academic dishonesty of the rankest sort.[Link: www.slate.com...]

Jindal has chosen the losing side.

7 labman57  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:14:48pm

Many Republicans would love to see the public education system be financially gutted and instead have the private education system be government-subsidized.   One reason:  they regard any form of public education (k-12 or college) as part of a subversive left-wing plot to corrupt and brainwash our youth.

Unlike the public school system, private schools would not be restricted from propagating right wing revisionist history in their social studies classes, nor proselytizing religious ideology and promoting corporate-funded anti-environmental propaganda in the science classroom.

Vouchers are intended to allow students from (once again) highly motivated families attend costly private schools which they would otherwise not be able to attend. The funding for the vouchers comes from the state or federal government, i.e., the government is essentially subsidizing the private school industry.  Since private schools can select student admittance based on the family's financial status and academic ability, this would create a further divide between the "haves" and "have nots" in our society.

Since vouchers only account for a portion of the cost of tuition at a private school, families in the lower third of the economic range would still be excluded from attending, resulting in the public school system being further saturated with the poorest students, the lowest achieving students (including ELD and learning disabled), and those that are least motivated to attain academic success.

Furthermore, comparing performance data between public and private schools is not scientifically valid -- the latter can select students for admission based on entrance qualifications, and they can remove students from their programs based on poor conduct or academic performance. Therefore, the performance data becomes extremely skewed compared with public schools which legally must accept anyone who resides within its residency boundaries.

8 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:20:46pm

The kind of stuff that Jindal wants state and federal tax dollars to pay for being taught...

[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

Please take a look, sorry the article is all images that because of format can't be posted here, but please take half a minute to go look. This is Bobby Jindal's idea of a fair approach to teaching creationism side by side with evolution. He wants all of us to have to pay for it, taking money away from his states already shitty public schools to fund private voucher schools where they can teach this kind of trash while also re-introducing de facto segregation.

This can not be allowed to happen unopposed, this shit is important!

9 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:22:16pm

So I'm going to chime in and point out it goes beyond creationism. Some of the "approved" materials used by private schools are wall-to-wall indoctrination into a very narrow wingnut mindset, wherein right-wing ideology is presented as factual, and the whole of history and philosophy is channeled through partisan lenses (link to Wonkette's review of a Christian textbook). It's teaching kids to be JBS wingnuts. That's part of what Jindal wants government money to go to (note: the board making decisions about where money can be allocated also said "No" to an Islamic school, so religious freedom isn't an excuse.)

10 Tigger2  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:25:11pm

The whole Tea Party way of thinking is unconstitutional. lol

11 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:27:32pm

re: #9 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea

linky no worky

12 The Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:28:41pm

re: #11 freetoken

linky no worky

Caught it as soon as I posted. Fixed.

13 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:34:17pm

re: #1 freetoken

O.T. Kinda an early offtopic there don't you think? You couldn't wait 15-20 minutes to post that? If this was an overnight video or music thread or afternoon video bump then sure go for it, but this thread actually has a topic.

I wouldn't say anything at the risk of derailing the thread but jumping on a brand new thread to go offtopic on the very first post just ridiculous and very poor netiquette. If I didn't say anything then I would be suborning more people to act similarly. Sorry freetoken. :(

14 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:36:52pm

re: #13 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Eh, Charles updinged it so I don't think he has a problem with it.

15 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:37:01pm

re: #8 watching you tiny alien kittens are

From your link,
Creationist viewpoint: The earth is thousands of years old
Evolutionist viewpoint: The earth is millions of years old

Teach the controversy!

Billions are not real because no one can count that high

16 dragonath  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:38:48pm

Billions: A Carl Sagan Conspiracy

17 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:38:49pm

re: #13 watching you tiny alien kittens are

O.T. Kinda an early offtopic there don't you think? You couldn't wait 15-20 minutes to post that? If this was an overnight video or music thread or afternoon video bump then sure go for it, but this thread actually has a topic.

I wouldn't say anything at the risk of derailing the thread but jumping on a brand new thread to go offtopic on the very first post just ridiculous and very poor netiquette. If I didn't say anything then I would be suborning more people to act similarly. Sorry freetoken. :(

Perfectly appropriate, given Jindal's "moderate" reputation.

18 compound_Idaho  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:39:57pm

re: #7 labman57

Are you opposed to Pell Grants? They might go to Notre Dame or SMU.

19 Mattand  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:41:39pm

re: #13 watching you tiny alien kittens are

O.T. Kinda an early offtopic there don't you think? You couldn't wait 15-20 minutes to post that? If this was an overnight video or music thread or afternoon video bump then sure go for it, but this thread actually has a topic.

I wouldn't say anything at the risk of derailing the thread but jumping on a brand new thread to go offtopic on the very first post just ridiculous and very poor netiquette. If I didn't say anything then I would be suborning more people to act similarly. Sorry freetoken. :(

Yeah, I'm not getting how Freetoken's post is OT. Both the Jindal story and the Cuccinelli demonstrate that conservatives/Republicans have not learned one frigging thing from the election. And that was barely a month ago.

20 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:42:37pm

re: #13 watching you tiny alien kittens are

I'm surprised you don't get the connections.

21 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:42:39pm

[Link: www.latimes.com...]

RIP Rick Majerus

22 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:43:18pm

This guy in Baltimore is an idiot.

23 dragonath  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:43:26pm

BILLYONS AND BILLYONS

24 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:45:15pm

Hang on while I Tweet!

//

25 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:45:21pm
26 JAFO  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:45:28pm

WTF SWAT negotiations with suspect who is livestreaming.

27 jaunte  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:46:04pm

Gov. Bobby Jindal says 'common sense of culture' makes American dream possible

Offering a critical take on James Carville's famous political dictum "it's the economy, Stupid," Gov. Bobby Jindal told the Family Research Council's Values Voter Summit Friday night that at a deeper level "It's the culture, Stupid." That was the title and theme of Jindal's speech before Christian conservatives who heard from five Republican presidential candidates Friday ... (snip)
......
Jindal also heaped praise on Tony Perkins, the former Louisiana legislator who leads the FRC, which places conservative Christian values -- particularly on issues like abortion and gay rights -- at the center of its politics.

28 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:46:46pm

re: #17 austin_blue

re: #19 Mattand

Because school voucher program funding that is spreading from state to state is exactly the same topic as how "moderate" republicans aren't really moderate? Nevermind I'm off this thread before I drag it any further off topic,you guys talk about what you want and I will see you upstairs later.

29 Eventual Carrion  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:47:18pm

re: #18 compound_Idaho

Are you opposed to Pell Grants? They might go to Notre Dame or SMU.

College is not mandatory. Can I trap your child in a mandatory attendance classroom and teach them about his almighty satan?

30 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:50:34pm

re: #7 labman57

These are the 2 main reasons wingnuts hate public schools.

1) They hate Unions, and in particular Unions with a majority of females
3) Their religion requires followers to remain ignorant of science

31 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:51:26pm

Now he's changing his mind.

32 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:51:26pm

re: #28 watching you tiny alien kittens are

re: #19 Mattand

Because school voucher program funding that is spreading from state to state is exactly the same topic as how "moderate" republicans aren't really moderate? Nevermind I'm off this thread before I drag it any further off topic,you guys talk about what you want and I will see you upstairs later.

Huh. Now you run off with a post about school vouchers, which I never mentioned. Huh. B'byeee!

33 jaunte  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:53:34pm

re: #30 Mich-again

Republican Party of Texas:

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

34 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:53:48pm

re: #25 Gus

[Link: baltimorespectator.blogspot.com...]

re: #26 JAFO

WTF SWAT negotiations with suspect who is livestreaming.

You guys getting your "news" from twitter again?
Owning a webcam and tweeting does not make you immune to probation violations for illegal gun charges.
Police: Local blogger refuses to surrender in Waverly
It's still a crime even if you tweet about it.

35 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:54:44pm

re: #25 Gus

[Link: baltimorespectator.blogspot.com...]

He says he's walking outside shortly.

36 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:55:13pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

re: #26 JAFO

You guys getting your "news" from twitter again?
Owning a webcam and tweeting does not make you immune to probation violations for illegal gun charges.
Police: Local blogger refuses to surrender in Waverly
It's still a crime even if you tweet about it.

Really? So you know what I'm thinking? After I called him an idiot?

37 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:55:29pm

re: #28 watching you tiny alien kittens are

As I noted yesterday, an important revelation is in Jindal's last quoted statement:

[...] Jindal said. “This ruling changes nothing for the students currently in the program. All along, we expected this to be decided by the Louisiana Supreme Court.

Jindal's support of vouchers he knew, he knew, was him delving into a legal mess.

Then why did he do it?

Because just like those Virginian Republicans, and state Republican parties in other states, the goal for those who want to rise to power is how to play the social/religious conservatives.

School vouchers have become a rallying point for religious conservatives in their battle against public education. Jindal clearly is working this angle to build support for his future political goals.

This is a systemic problem now for the GOP, which made a bargain with the devil (if you will allow me the analogy) when it decided to build its political workforce out of religious activists.

38 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:56:57pm

Wait! Let me check my email!

39 BongCrodny  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:59:24pm

When it comes to Young Earth Creationism, I think the noted philosopher "Weird" Al Yankovic said it best: dare to be stupid.

40 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:00:44pm

LOL Now he's playing a Ron Paul speech.

41 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:02:42pm

Derp.

42 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:10:20pm
43 dragonath  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:16:54pm

I have to echo something that Shiplord Kirel said a couple months back- how exactly did creationism end up inflicting the greater part of "mainline" American Christianity?

I've watched the moderate churches around me fall by degrees, and it is not a very enjoyable sight. It's depressing to go into a church and hear the congregants talking about goddamn Masons.

44 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:17:49pm

re: #43 dragonath

There have been some extensive essays written on this, often from within Christian communities themselves.

45 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:22:31pm

re: #44 freetoken

There have been some extensive essays written on this, often from within Christian communities themselves.

So I'm sure by know you've heard that America will be powered by fossil fuels in earnest for the next 20 years or more? Happy days are here again. Drill here; drill now.

46 JAFO  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:25:42pm

re: #43 dragonath

I have to echo something that Shiplord Kirel said a couple months back- how exactly did creationism end up inflicting the greater part of "mainline" American Christianity?

I've watched the moderate churches around me fall by degrees, and it is not a very enjoyable sight. It's depressing to go into a church and hear the congregants talking about goddamn Masons.

And those damn Dixons

47 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:28:15pm

Night all. Sweet scaly dreams!

48 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:28:44pm

Sorry I've stepped back. I'm trying to figure out the math on something.

49 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:29:27pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

Sorry I've stepped back. I'm trying to figure out the math on something.

Math sucks.

//

50 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:33:43pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

Sorry I've stepped back. I'm trying to figure out the math on something.

42.

51 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:35:49pm

re: #50 Varek Raith

42.

No, the relevant number is 89.

52 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:36:43pm

No, it's 12.

As in years old, scotch.

53 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:36:51pm

re: #43 dragonath

I have to echo something that Shiplord Kirel said a couple months back- how exactly did creationism end up inflicting the greater part of "mainline" American Christianity?

I've watched the moderate churches around me fall by degrees, and it is not a very enjoyable sight. It's depressing to go into a church and hear the congregants talking about goddamn Masons.

Heck in 1972 in Catholic school I learned that Genesis was not to be taken as an historical account of how the Earth and how life came to be. Now 40 years later I see people who identify as Catholics, like Marco Rubio and Rick Santorum spouting bullshit right from the Southern Baptist manual.

54 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:42:28pm

When I was 8, I had a very short argument about dinosaurs with my buddy's dad who was the preacher at the Pentecostal Church in my neighborhood. He said Dinosaur bones were just rocks that looked like bones and I laughed..

But his kid was a good friend of mine, we threw snowballs at cars together..

55 Petero1818  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:46:37pm

re: #54 Mich-again

When I was 8, I had a very short argument about dinosaurs with my buddy's dad who was the preacher at the Pentecostal Church in my neighborhood. He said Dinosaur bones were just rocks that looked like bones and I laughed..

But his kid was a good friend of mine, we threw snowballs at cars together..

you should have thrown snow balls at his head, then apologized for thinking that you assumed his head only looked like a head but was merely a small boulder.

56 Ming  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:47:16pm

Bobby Jindal may be the Mitt Romney of 2012: very comfortably shape-shifting his positions on any and all issues, to get through whatever door he needs to get through to move forward in his campaign for the presidency.

You've gotta be flexible to appeal to the small-government Republicans, the big-government Christian theocracy Republicans, and the Dixiecrat racist Republicans. I have a feeling that Jindal is thinking about this in some detail.

57 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:48:09pm

re: #56 Ming

Bobby Jindal may be the Mitt Romney of 2012: very comfortably shape-shifting his positions on any and all issues, to get through whatever door he needs to get through to move forward in his campaign for the presidency.

You've gotta be flexible to appeal to the small-government Republicans, the big-government Christian theocracy Republicans, and the Dixiecrat racist Republicans. I have a feeling that Jindal is thinking about this in some detail.

Don't tell 'em. Let them go the wrong way. Better for us. ;)

58 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:49:04pm

re: #56 Ming

Bobby Jindal may be the Mitt Romney of 2012: very comfortably shape-shifting his positions on any and all issues, to get through whatever door he needs to get through to move forward in his campaign for the presidency.

You've gotta be flexible to appeal to the small-government Republicans, the big-government Christian theocracy Republicans, and the Dixiecrat racist Republicans. I have a feeling that Jindal is thinking about this in some detail.

Jindal is better at dealing with average people than Romney. not as much business sense, but more personable.

59 allegro  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:49:34pm

re: #56 Ming

Bobby Jindal may be the Mitt Romney of 2012: very comfortably shape-shifting his positions on any and all issues, to get through whatever door he needs to get through to move forward in his campaign for the presidency.

You've gotta be flexible to appeal to the small-government Republicans, the big-government Christian theocracy Republicans, and the Dixiecrat racist Republicans. I have a feeling that Jindal is thinking about this in some detail.

It will never work. He can never look the part. Image is everything in the GOP. Really.

60 Ming  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:53:17pm

re: #59 allegro

It will never work. He can never look the part. Image is everything in the GOP. Really.

You've got a point... the Alfred E. Neuman look may work against him.

61 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:53:35pm

re: #56 Ming

Bobby Jindal may be the Mitt Romney of 2012: very comfortably shape-shifting his positions on any and all issues, to get through whatever door he needs to get through to move forward in his campaign for the presidency.

You've gotta be flexible to appeal to the small-government Republicans, the big-government Christian theocracy Republicans, and the Dixiecrat racist Republicans. I have a feeling that Jindal is thinking about this in some detail.

Good thought but.. nope. The WASP contingency is done experimenting with outsiders. They tried a Mormon and a Catholic this time and it failed spectacularly.

62 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:54:23pm

Someone just got their mirror whacked good. Thwack. I said, "Oh!"

63 CarleeCork  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:55:10pm

Their savior is George P. Bush.

64 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:57:29pm

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

Jindal is better at dealing with average people than Romney. not as much business sense, but more personable.

There is zero chance Bobby Jindall will appeal to the GOP base as a Presidential candidate. Oh don't get me wrong. They'd love to have him around to prove they have some dark-skinned supporters, but not as President.

65 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:58:03pm

re: #63 CarleeCork

Their savior is George P. Bush.

My early odds-on favorite for the GOP nod in 2016 is Rand Paul.

66 Ming  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 8:59:31pm

re: #61 Mich-again

Good thought but.. nope. The WASP contingency is done experimenting with outsiders. They tried a Mormon and a Catholic this time and it failed spectacularly.

Yes, in 2012 the GOP tried a Mormon and an "Ayn Rand Catholic", a strange combination indeed. Sarah Palin in 2008 was even stranger. I agree, they will go for "normal" in 2016, or at least try to. The pressure from "the base" may doom that effort, however.

67 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:02:56pm

re: #66 Ming

Yes, in 2012 the GOP tried a Mormon and an "Ayn Rand Catholic", a strange combination indeed. Sarah Palin in 2008 was even stranger. I agree, they will go for "normal" in 2016, or at least try to. The pressure from "the base" may doom that effort, however.

The sad thing is, I think Mitt was such a bad candidate that it may have ruined the chances for Jon Huntsman next time. The GOPers will just assume Huntsman is Romney Lite.

68 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:04:33pm

Isn't it amazing what meat space can do?

69 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:15:22pm

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

Jindal is better at dealing with average people than Romney. not as much business sense, but more personable.

He still has no business being PotUS.

70 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:17:49pm

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

Jindal is better at dealing with average people than Romney. not as much business sense, but more personable.

He's a weird, goofy bigot who's approval polls are in marked decline. Sounds like a winner, the GOP should definitely go with him.

71 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:21:22pm

re: #69 Varek Raith

He still has no business being PotUS.

[Dobro slide.]

72 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:25:06pm

Infrastructure Spending Needed: Century-Old New Jersey Bridge Collapses For Second Time In Four Years
Who needs to replace a bridge built in 187fucking3 anyways??
Ridiculous.

73 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:28:33pm
74 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:31:13pm

re: #72 Varek Raith

Infrastructure Spending Needed: Century-Old New Jersey Bridge Collapses For Second Time In Four Years
Who needs to replace a bridge built in 187fucking3 anyways??
Ridiculous.

Conservatives look at a bridge that is still standing and think that any investment in them is unnecessary spending..

75 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:32:18pm

re: #73 Gus

This is where he made his first mistake.

And in the end he went without a fight. A pathetic little man who spouted empty threats to make himself feel better.

76 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:35:36pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

And in the end he went without a fight. A pathetic little man who spouted empty threats to make himself feel better.

Pretty much.

77 Eventual Carrion  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:35:41pm

re: #73 Gus

This is where he made his first mistake.

Yeah James, no one will ever know who you are. Baltimore you say?

78 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:37:15pm

In digging around the net looking for some historical links to the far right nuttiness that has nested itself in the GOP I noticed that the now strangely deforming "World League for Freedom and Democracy (WLFD)" has a a Facebook page:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

What would Chiang Kai-shek think?

79 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:37:34pm

re: #77 Eventual Carrion

Yeah James, no one will ever know who you are. Baltimore you say?

I read that and was like, wow.

80 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:39:41pm

re: #73 Gus

This is where he made his first mistake.

I wonder if there are any mini-Breitbarts with outstanding parking tickets.

81 Eventual Carrion  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:40:27pm

re: #79 Gus

I read that and was like, wow.

Bad man, not smart man, but a bad man.

82 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:41:01pm

re: #80 Mich-again

I wonder if there are any mini-Breitbarts with outstanding parking tickets.

Kind of like a Sovereign citizen.

83 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:45:36pm

America's bridges
72,868 structurally deficient
89,024 functionally obsolete

Nope, no need for infrastructure spending. We need more tax cuts!
*Spits*

84 SteveMcG  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:48:33pm

I wonder how long the people who built the bridges thought they would last?

85 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:52:00pm

When my wingnut friends try to say that there is nothing Government can do to help create jobs, I ask them what would happen if we turned off power to all the red lights at intersections everywhere and made them all 4-way stops.

86 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:52:50pm

re: #84 SteveMcG

I wonder how long the people who built the bridges thought they would last?

If they were Tea Baggers. the answer would be Till I Die which is as long as they need to last.

87 Varek Raith  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:55:07pm

re: #85 Mich-again

When my wingnut friends try to say that there is nothing Government can do to help create jobs, I ask them what would happen if we turned off power to all the red lights at intersections everywhere and made them all 4-way stops.

Oh dear.
*Drives tank from now on*

88 SteveMcG  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:57:24pm

I was thinking about this once when I was in center city Philadelphia and I was looking at the thumb drive building (Comcast Tower). That SOB is going to last a long time, but someday that thing's gonna have to come down.

89 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:58:02pm

re: #82 Gus

Kind of like a Sovereign citizen.

The difference is that some "Sovereign citizens" do get full of enough rage to act violently, even towards cops. This guy was just an angry little loser.

90 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 10:01:08pm

When I come across stories like the following I just get a glaze over my eyes:

‘Gods have nothing to do with it, it’s astronomy’

[...]

Religion and science have been having a bit of a bout in the ring that is the Gavi Gangadhareshwara Temple. While religious believers have held that the phenomenon of the sun rays passing through a window and illuminating the deity inside a cave on January 14 – Makara Sankranti Day – is ‘the Will of God’, three researchers beg to differ. Linking it to the solstices, they say the celestial event also occurs on Nov 30, making it a twice-a-year event rather than an annual one as is widely believed.

[...]

Well, good for the astronomers for describing what is going on, but step back and think of this: here we are in 2012 and there are still communities of people who ascribe simple effects from planetary motion as being magical occurrences from "gods".

91 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 10:11:41pm

re: #82 Gus

Kind of like a Sovereign citizen.

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

The difference is that some "Sovereign citizens" do get full of enough rage to act violently, even towards cops. This guy was just an angry little loser.

Did you notice this part?
Anyone Can Be Erased

Later today, for the first time ever, I will take to the airwaves to relate my story, of being held in custody for 40 days in Baltimore correctional facilities. There were no charges. There was no warrant. Not even bail. When friends and family, including Maryland State Del. Jill P. Carter -- a defense attorney -- made official inquiry to the correctional facilities, they were all soundly told, I was not there. Even popular talk host and former State Senator Larry Young could not locate me through official channels.

Altho some reckless statements by Mr. James MacArthur have been pointed out, I'm not jumping to any conclusions just yet.

92 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 11:05:13pm

re: #89 Dark_Falcon

The difference is that some "Sovereign citizens" do get full of enough rage to act violently, even towards cops. This guy was just an angry little loser.

There was the nutjob in Fairhope Alabama last week that shot and killed a Baldwin County policeman. His mom tried to have him committed, but the state budget cuts landed him in a community based treatment center (aka mom's trailer) instead. link..

93 funky chicken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 11:22:59pm

re: #53 Mich-again

Heck in 1972 in Catholic school I learned that Genesis was not to be taken as an historical account of how the Earth and how life came to be. Now 40 years later I see people who identify as Catholics, like Marco Rubio and Rick Santorum spouting bullshit right from the Southern Baptist manual.

I had the same experience in a Catholic high school in the 1980s. Excellent, intellectual monk taught the Old Testament as history/literature, with heavy focus upon how the various diaspora events led to creation of myths like the story of Daniel, Jonah, etc. It was super interesting, and I'm not religious. I'd consider repeating the class now even. Biblical literalism is bizarre.

94 Kragar  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 11:23:00pm

Scott DeJarlais tells radio host ‘I know God’s forgiven me’

Rep. Scott DesJarlais (R-TN), who has refused to leave office in spite of revelations of numerous affairs, including one where he pressured a mistress to have an abortion despite his political opposition to it, defended his position on a conservative radio show Saturday.

According to The Huffington Post, DeJarlais told Ralph Bristol he still considers himself “very solid” in his views.

“I don’t think, Ralph, that I implied that there was nothing in my past,” DesJarlais said. “I didn’t go back and dig up all my personal shortcomings and display them. I went through this divorce a long time ago. I made a very poor decision in my first marriage. I know God’s forgiven me.”

95 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 11:30:36pm

re: #94 Kragar

Scott DeJarlais tells radio host ‘I know God’s forgiven me’

This is America - we specialize in this kind of religion.

96 Kragar  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 11:33:13pm

re: #95 freetoken

This is America - we specialize in this kind of religion.

[Embedded content]

97 Feline Fearless Leader  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 11:40:38pm

I found Varek's cat!
[Link: xkcd.com...]

98 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 11:56:09pm

Charlie Byrd:

99 researchok  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 12:26:15am

Morning, all

100 researchok  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 12:31:08am

re: #98 freetoken

There is something about that era of string prices.

Soothing, I would say.

101 researchok  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 1:14:34am

Really quiet this AM

102 freetoken  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 1:18:44am

re: #100 researchok

Non-grungy guitars, before the era of hard rock.

One of Byrd's contemporaries, though they ran in different circles and sold to different market segments, Chet Akins:

103 researchok  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 1:31:19am

re: #102 freetoken

Now there was a real talent.

Under appreciated by most save for the cognoscenti.

Of which I do not count myself a part of.

I came to appreciate Atkins by way of youtube,

104 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 4:35:37am

Guitars? Jazz? Bach?

105 Flounder  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 4:54:21am

5 batmobiles through the years:
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
I like the original the best.

106 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 4:54:43am

Morning Honcos.

107 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 4:58:15am

re: #106 Cannadian Club Akbar

Morning Honcos.

Stop stalking me!! /

108 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:05:55am

Healthy lunches in Hernando not enough, students say
In October, the district sold roughly 4,000 more lunches than the previous year.

But interest in school lunches appears to have fallen off considerably this November.

The district sold about 22,000 fewer lunches compared to November 2011, a drop from 272,158 to 250,484.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]
But, but, it's healthy!! Don't you stoopid kids get it!!!

109 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:05:59am

re: #105 Flounder

5 batmobiles through the years:
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
I like the original the best.

I'd actually go with the one from the Tim Burton movies, myself. It was distinctive as the Batmobile, while not being stupidly over-engineered or thin like the ones from the execrable Joel Schumacher's FAIL and EPIC FAIL. While Adam West's Batmobile was cool for its time, my own mind came of age in later times, times when the criminals and terrorists are too dangerous for Batman to drive a convertible. Given Batman's need for protection against small-arms fire, the Burton-era Batmobile seems the best to me.

110 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:07:07am

re: #108 Cannadian Club Akbar

Healthy lunches in Hernando not enough, students say
In October, the district sold roughly 4,000 more lunches than the previous year.

But interest in school lunches appears to have fallen off considerably this November.

The district sold about 22,000 fewer lunches compared to November 2011, a drop from 272,158 to 250,484.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]
But, but, it's healthy!! Don't you stoopid kids get it!!!

Maybe if the molded the TOFU in the shape of Twinkies,,,,,

111 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:10:16am

Multi-million gold heist from boat in Caribbean

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

The boat, by its appearance, would seem an unlikely place to stash that amount of gold. The "Summer Bliss" is a fishing boat with rust streaks on its white cabin and no visible security

Whats that I smell,,, , oh yes,, the unmistakable whiff of An Inside Job!!!

112 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:10:36am

re: #108 Cannadian Club Akbar

Healthy lunches in Hernando not enough, students say
In October, the district sold roughly 4,000 more lunches than the previous year.

But interest in school lunches appears to have fallen off considerably this November.

The district sold about 22,000 fewer lunches compared to November 2011, a drop from 272,158 to 250,484.
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]
But, but, it's healthy!! Don't you stoopid kids get it!!!

Educational bureaucrats don't and won't care about what the kids think. They'll just keep ordering the meals that meet the guidelines they've been given.

113 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:12:52am

re: #111 sattv4u2

Multi-million gold heist from boat in Caribbean

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

The boat, by its appearance, would seem an unlikely place to stash that amount of gold. The "Summer Bliss" is a fishing boat with rust streaks on its white cabin and no visible security

Whats that I smell,,, , oh yes,, the unmistakable whiff of An Inside Job!!!

No, no, it was the Caribbean, so it must have been Blackbeard.

///

114 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:13:50am

re: #112 Dark_Falcon

Educational bureaucrats don't and won't care about what the kids think. They'll just keep ordering the meals that meet the guidelines they've been given. As for the kids:

s1288.beta.photobucket.com...]>

Linky no worky. When I was in skool we had a massive underground dealings in regards to chocolate bars and the such. I'm sure it is still going on.

115 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:17:41am

I get to pay my credit card bill tomorrow which means I will get to see Ana. It's the little things, ya know?

116 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:18:08am

re: #115 Cannadian Club Akbar

I get to pay my credit card bill tomorrow which means I will get to see Ana. It's the little things, ya know?

Que !?!?!?!

117 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:19:12am

re: #116 sattv4u2

Que !?!?!?!

Hot chick at the bank. Yummy.

118 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:20:33am

re: #117 Cannadian Club Akbar

Hot chick at the bank. Yummy.

oh ,, well,,,,, maybe you can set up an 'inside job" with HER!!

/

119 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:21:52am

re: #118 sattv4u2

oh ,, well,,,,, maybe you can set up an 'inside job" with HER!!

/

She has a ring, but it isn't an engagement ring or a wedding band. Not sure WTF it is.

120 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:22:51am

re: #119 Cannadian Club Akbar

She has a ring, but it isn't an engagement ring or a wedding band. Not sure WTF it is.

umm,,, errr,,, ASK!!!

121 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:24:15am

re: #120 sattv4u2

umm,,, errr,,, ASK!!!

Ah...no. Well, maybe if I see an open door.

122 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:24:54am

re: #114 Cannadian Club Akbar

Linky no worky. When I was in skool we had a massive underground dealings in regards to chocolate bars and the such. I'm sure it is still going on.

I couldn't get the link to work, so I deleted it.

123 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:26:05am

re: #121 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ah...no. Well, maybe if I see an open door.

How 'bout

"wow, thats a real nice ring. Where did you get it"

124 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:27:34am

re: #121 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ah...no. Well, maybe if I see an open door.

Work it in. Subtlety but visibly notice it, complement her on it, then ask about. That way you're making it about the ring, not about if she's married.

125 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:27:50am

re: #122 Dark_Falcon

I couldn't get the link to work, so I deleted it.

When I was in skool we had 4 choices: 2 meals of the day (entree, 2 sides, dessert, milk), a hamburger line (2 sides, dessert, milk) and a salad bar. We also had milkshakes you could buy separate.

126 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:28:40am

Good Morning.

127 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:28:56am

re: #123 sattv4u2

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

Nice ideas but I thought about dry humping her leg. Does that still work these days?
///

128 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:30:46am

re: #127 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

Nice ideas but I thought about dry humping her leg. Does that still work these days?
///

Nahh,,, you want to do something different than all the other bank customers!

129 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:33:29am

re: #128 sattv4u2

Nahh,,, you want to do something different than all the other bank customers!

I know!! I'll fake a hold up and take her hostage!! Then take her to Ruth's Chris, although I'm not sure if she eats beef.

130 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:33:59am

re: #127 Cannadian Club Akbar

How about something sweet and simple? Wishing her a very happy holiday. And with that you might find out what she is doing for the holiday.

131 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:34:49am

re: #130 PhillyPretzel

How about something sweet and simple? Wishing her a very happy holiday. And with that you might find out what she is doing for the holiday.

Filing for a restraining order!!

132 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:35:20am

re: #131 sattv4u2

Filing for a restraining order!!

Now THAT'S funny!!!

133 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:35:45am

re: #131 sattv4u2

After Cannadian Club Akbar gets done with her, yes.

134 Flounder  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:42:36am

re: #117 Cannadian Club Akbar

If you are half as charming in person as you are here, ask her out! I know she wouldn't say no, I wouldn't, wink wink nudge nudge knowwhatImean?

135 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:46:04am

re: #134 Flounder

If you are half as charming in person as you are here, ask her out! I know she wouldn't say no, I wouldn't, wink wink nudge nudge knowwhatImean?

I worked with a married couple years ago. Wanna know what his pick up line was? "Are we fucking or are you wasting my time?' Heh. Side note: I trained him and he eventually became a restaurant manager. Last I knew he was working at Senior Frog's in Coco Walk (Miami)

136 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:46:21am

Iran unveiled a new submarine this week, and it looks like the Mullahs got punked by Queer Eye for the Straight Guy:

Image: article-0-16421642000005DC-386_634x367.jpg

137 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:47:43am

re: #135 Cannadian Club Akbar

I worked with a married couple years ago. Wanna know what his pick up line was? "Are we fucking or are you wasting my time?' Heh. Side note: I trained him and he eventually became a restaurant manager. Last I knew he was working at Senior Frog's in Coco Walk (Miami)

I find it hard to believe he didn't get backhanded across the jaw for that line. He should have been backhanded, surely.

138 sattv4u2  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:49:44am

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

I find it hard to believe he didn't get backhanded across the jaw for that line. He should have been backhanded, surely.

He did,, often

(he also got laid ,, often)
/

139 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 5:52:38am

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

I find it hard to believe he didn't get backhanded across the jaw for that line. He should have been backhanded, surely.

I was giving him a 50 cent raise so I sat him down and said "so tell me happened the other night and I'll tell you if you're right". He looked at me, all kinds of confused. I kept that going for about 2 minutes. Then I told him about his raise. Classic.

140 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 6:01:54am

Alrighty, this house needs a cleaning. And sports talk is on now that the fishing show is over. FOOTBALL BABY!!! bbl

141 kirkspencer  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 6:18:45am

re: #136 Dark_Falcon

Iran unveiled a new submarine this week, and it looks like the Mullahs got punked by Queer Eye for the Straight Guy:

Image: article-0-16421642000005DC-386_634x367.jpg

Closer to shore, where looking down you begin to see bottom through the gulf, guess what color it seems to be? Answer: Image: geoeye-1-persian-gulf-web.jpg

It's sorta the same deal as the pink air recce spitfires in WWII. Given where they're supposed to be used the outrageous color turns out to be the one that works the best. Put them elsewhere and they're "shoot me now" signs.

142 Decatur Deb  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 6:21:16am

re: #119 Cannadian Club Akbar

She has a ring, but it isn't an engagement ring or a wedding band. Not sure WTF it is.

Superbowl ring. Don't bother.

143 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 6:23:13am

re: #139 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was giving him a 50 cent raise so I sat him down and said "so tell me happened the other night and I'll tell you if you're right". He looked at me, all kinds of confused. I kept that going for about 2 minutes. Then I told him about his raise. Classic.

Different people, I guess. I would have reacted to your sentence by saying "I do not understand what you are asking."

144 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 6:50:21am

Good morning, campers!

145 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 7:02:15am

The Washington Post has a better article on that new Iranian sub. Iran also put launched its latest Moudge-class ship, named the Sahand. The articles call her a frigate (FFG) owing to her small size (1,500 tons standard displacement), but Iran has dusted off the designation of Destroyer Escort (DDE) and applided it to the class. One shouldn't ignore these new surface ships from Iran: Their C-803 SSMs pack a hard punch. AEGIS is designed to meet this sort of threat, thankfully.

146 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 7:26:34am

BL

147 kirkspencer  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 7:45:15am

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

The Washington Post has a better article on that new Iranian sub. Iran also put launched its latest Moudge-class ship, named the Sahand. The articles call her a frigate (FFG) owing to her small size (1,500 tons standard displacement), but Iran has dusted off the designation of Destroyer Escort (DDE) and applided it to the class. One shouldn't ignore these new surface ships from Iran: Their C-803 SSMs pack a hard punch. AEGIS is designed to meet this sort of threat, thankfully.

I keep hammering that Iran 2012 is not Iraq 2003 or Iran 1987. They have logistics. They train, small and large scale, with integrated operations. And their weapons systems are solid tier 2 and situational tier 1.

148 darthstar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 7:51:14am
149 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 7:57:44am

It's absolute night and day, listening to Geithner and Boehner on Fox. The former's laying out the reality that the Dems won't back down and that the GOP's gonna have to swallow its pride and accept a deal that won't be popular, and the latter's whining that Dems aren't "serious" and that we may very well go over the cliff because he's such a nice guy who insists on the debt being addressed, while promising future hostage negotiations every time the debt limit needs to be increased.

150 jaunte  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:22:15am
151 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:26:42am

re: #149 Targetpractice

Yup.. So true.. It's all about the fiscal cliff on the Sunday Morning talk shows.
I was just getting used to Benghazi 24/7.

152 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:27:16am

re: #150 jaunte

Graham: 'We're going over the cliff'

I hope it's clear to most Americans by now that the Republican Party is not interested in compromise. Not even an inch.

153 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:28:52am

I eagerly await the latest report on which topic is most recommended on Daily Kos.

//

154 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:30:18am

The Sunday funnies, er talk shows seem to be setting the stage for this week. The Dems have made their line in the sand, refusing to agree to further tax cuts for the rich, while the GOP is set on spending the coming week whining that Obama's "not serious."

155 kirkspencer  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:34:59am

re: #150 jaunte

Graham: 'We're going over the cliff'

One of the ugly consequences for the Republicans is going to be the reaction to hyperbole.

They've been calling it a cliff. They've been acting as though it's going to immediately drop us into another Great Recession.

Come January a lot of people are going to be looking around asking where the cliff went. Oh, there'll be a bit of a bump that'll show for the first quarter or two, but cliff? Not so much.

And the consequence will be that Republican predictions of doom are going to be treated even more frequently as hyperbole and hysteria. "Oh, it's just John again, predicting the end of the world because we're almost out of beer in the fridge."

156 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:35:35am

re: #153 Gus

I eagerly await the latest report on which topic is most recommended on Daily Kos.

//

This was on the rec list earlier but looks like it got bumped off by the Bradley Manning diary again. I thought it was pretty good.
The Squandered Potential of Occupy

The teeth-gnashing, soul-grinding pettiness, self-involvement and anti-gestalt of it all makes me want to break something. So I was extremely surprised and heartened when Occupy came around and made me think, for a precious moment, that left-wing activists had discovered how to effectively cooperate for the universal good for the first time since the birth of the labor movement. Here they were - the people who usually made careers out of impotent complaining and obscure rhetoric - standing side by side with folks who don't normally protest as well as folks who push change through the ordinary mechanisms of politics. With one voice, they were raising awareness of the profound inequality in America, and the fact that the political classes have only served a tiny fraction of the people for decades. And the message got out. "99%/1%" is no longer some obscure ideological term, but a recognized demographic reference.
....
Occupy hadn't risen to prominence because of wavy fingers, drum circles, or any of the thousands of totally irrelevant things it came to be associated with through sheer self-inflicted scatterbrainedness. It had gotten attention because the inequalities in America had reached epic proportions, and were being perpetuated by the erosion of democracy in governance. In other words, it was about democracy, pure and simple - or at least that was the source of energy that brought it the national stage. But precious few seemed to understand that, particularly among diehard activists who had originally created it, or if they had at first they seemed to forget - so much of the rhetoric came to be about "sticking it to The Man," offending bourgeois sensibilities, defying the police, blah blah blah, and the unity message that had made it significant came to be identified as some kind of compromising Trojan Horse intended to distract Occupiers from the real mission of post-capitalist anarcho-syndicalism or some other obscure bullshit.

157 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:38:59am

Oh hai, still in Jerusalem. We went on the Western Wall Tunnels tour. Totally fascinating.

159 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:48:04am

If there be an object truly ridiculous in nature, it is an American patriot, signing resolutions of independency with the one hand, and with the other brandishing a whip over his affrighted slaves.
-- Thomas Day

160 jaunte  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:51:28am
161 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:56:33am

re: #155 kirkspencer

One of the ugly consequences for the Republicans is going to be the reaction to hyperbole.

They've been calling it a cliff. They've been acting as though it's going to immediately drop us into another Great Recession.

Come January a lot of people are going to be looking around asking where the cliff went. Oh, there'll be a bit of a bump that'll show for the first quarter or two, but cliff? Not so much.

And the consequence will be that Republican predictions of consequence are going to be treated even more frequently as hyperbole and hysteria. "Oh, it's just John again, predicting the end of the world because we're almost out of beer in the fridge."

It's a cliff that the GOP created, thinking that even if they couldn't win the election, they could still use the threat of it to pressure Democrats into accepting a deal on their "terms." Instead, the Dems have called their bluff and now they're stuck trying to work up an excuse for why they can't be held responsible if we go over the cliff.

162 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:11:31am

*drops a pin*

163 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:12:56am

C'mon you guys, I know it's lunchtime over there in the Western Hemisphere!

164 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:13:28am

Breakfast time, for you dudes on the West Coast.

165 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:15:19am

re: #163 Vicious Babushka

C'mon you guys, I know it's lunchtime over there in the Western Hemisphere!

I didn't know the West Wall had tunnels. Can you tell us something about them?

166 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:17:33am

re: #165 A Man for all Seasons

I didn't know the West Wall had tunnels. Can you tell us something about them?

The huge Kotel Plaza in Jerusalem is only a very small part of the original retaining perimeter wall built by Herod.

167 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:18:10am

re: #164 Vicious Babushka

Breakfast time, for you dudes on the West Coast.

Bloody Mary time here in the Mid Pacific.

168 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:23:01am

Americans debate "Native-inspired imagery by Victoria's Secret" resulting in Victoria's Secret pulling ads and apologizing followed by Americans going back to ignoring the plight and living conditions of American-Indians on Indian reservations.

169 darthstar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:24:52am

re: #155 kirkspencer

"Oh, it's just John again, predicting the end of the world because we're almost out of beer in the fridge."

Yep, it's just hyperbole and their 'sky is falling' cries of wolf won't play very well after the new year. And if they don't work out a compromise by the third week in January, President Obama's SOTU address is going to be like a red hot poker shoved up the GOP's collective ass.

170 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:26:58am
172 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:31:34am

Wow! Look at that beautiful white doe!

I have an idea, let's kill it!

173 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:33:47am

re: #172 Gus

Wow! Look at that beautiful white doe!

I have an idea, let's kill it!

They've done that with spirit bears in BC too.
Since becoming an adult I have not be able to understand the mindset of killing for killing's sake.

174 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:35:29am

re: #173 b_sharp

They've done that with spirit bears in BC too.
Since becoming an adult I have not be able to understand the mindset of killing for killing's sake.

Yeah. Probably murdered by some obese asshole mourning the demise of Twinkies.

175 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:36:32am
176 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:36:56am

re: #170 Gus

Hunter Asshole kills rare doe.

According to the article that is a buck.

So does that mean he will no longer be posting here?

177 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:38:23am

re: #176 Vicious Babushka

According to the article that is a buck.

So does that mean he will no longer be posting here?

Yeah, the reporting on this is rather confusing. I see what you did there. ;)

178 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:39:55am

re: #173 b_sharp

They've done that with spirit bears in BC too.
Since becoming an adult I have not be able to understand the mindset of killing for killing's sake.

I've never understood the need for hunting in an era when you could buy half a year's supply of meat from the local supermarket for what you'd spend on a single weekend hunting trip. Perhaps I'm just not suffering the appropriate level of testosterone poisoning.

179 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:40:36am

re: #177 Gus

Yeah, the reporting on this is rather confusing. I see what you did there. ;)

Two different stories. One an albino buck, the second an antlered doe.

180 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:42:04am

re: #178 Targetpractice

I've never understood the need for hunting in an era when you could buy half a year's supply of meat from the local supermarket for what you'd spend on a single weekend hunting trip. Perhaps I'm just not suffering the appropriate level of testosterone poisoning.

My younger brother was a big hunter. He and I used to argue about it before his testosterone killed him.

181 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:42:05am

re: #179 b_sharp

Two different stories. One an albino buck, the second an antlered doe.

OK. Then change that to "I'm confused this morning." :D In any event, it's still horrid. You'd think they'd show some discretion, humanity, for shooting these rare animals.

182 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:42:14am

re: #177 Gus

Yeah, the reporting on this is rather confusing. I see what you did there. ;)

Oh yes, a Victimhood Opportunity for Buck! Will he find it and work it to Maximum Victimhood?

183 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:43:08am

re: #181 Gus

OK. Then change that to "I'm confused this morning." :D In any event, it's still horrid. You'd think they'd show some discretion, humanity, for shooting these rare animals.

Remember, the average IQ is 100.

184 jaunte  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:46:12am
185 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:48:05am

re: #53 Mich-again

Heck in 1972 in Catholic school I learned that Genesis was not to be taken as an historical account of how the Earth and how life came to be. Now 40 years later I see people who identify as Catholics, like Marco Rubio and Rick Santorum spouting bullshit right from the Southern Baptist manual.

Same here. I learned in Catholic School about Science and Logical Thinking.

Why the Catholic Politicians are spouting Evangelical Rhetoric is beyond me. The Vatican hasn't changed their views on Science.

186 Amory Blaine  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:49:44am

$100 million in business tax credits, but at what cost?

Wisconsin manufacturers and farmers are poised to cash in on the biggest state tax break they’ve received in decades, a move hailed by business groups but questioned by others worried about the annual tax revenue loss of more than $100 million.

The Republican-controlled Legislature included the “domestic production tax credit” in the 2011-13 state budget. It applies to production in Wisconsin and on Wisconsin property that’s assessed for manufacturing or agricultural use. Over the next four years, income taxes on these sectors will be reduced to nearly nothing.

187 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:49:55am

re: #67 Mich-again

The sad thing is, I think Mitt was such a bad candidate that it may have ruined the chances for Jon Huntsman next time. The GOPers will just assume Huntsman is Romney Lite.

No, I think his sanity resonated during and after the debates. He needs to keep himself in the public eye.

188 Lidane  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:50:22am

Anti-Choice Rep. Scott DesJarlais Says That God Has Totally Forgiven Him for Pressuring His Mistress into Having an Abortion

Having admitted that he "made a very poor decision" in his first marriage when he cheated on his wife and pressured his mistress into have an abortion, Uncle Fester stunt-double and anti-choice U.S. Rep. Scott DesJarlais (R., Tenn.) insisted on a conservative Nashville radio show that God has "forgiven" him for being such an inveterate asshat, and asked "fellow Christians" to "consider doing the same."

DesJarlais, you may remember from the October weeks preceding our collective post-election fugue, is the Tea Party, family values-oriented Congressman (and physician!) who ran into a nasty bit of reelection trouble when a transcript of him bullying his ex-mistress/patient into having an abortion bubbled to the top of DesJarlais' swampy personal life. Things only got grosser from there — DesJarlais defended himself by explaining that the transcript wasn't so awful because his mistress wasn't even pregnant, and, besides, he was going through some tough emotional times. Have a little empathy, jeez. Soon, another former mistress came forward, telling tales of DesJarlais' professional inappropriateness, alleging that, as a doctor, he'd often try to romance some of his patients and write recreational prescriptions to whomever he was sexing.

Through it all, DesJarlais displayed the political fortitude to continue referring to himself as "consistent support of pro-life values," and has assured the good residents of Tennessee's Fourth Congressional District that, not only does he have no intention of resigning his seat, he'll be running for reelection in 2014.

189 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:50:45am

re: #186 Amory Blaine

$100 million in business tax credits, but at what cost?

Damn those unions!!!

190 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:51:00am

re: #69 Varek Raith

He still has no business being PotUS.

Well, since "life" begins at conception, Citizenship must too! Jindal was conceived in India --no?

You know they'd use this tactic if he were a Democrat.

:0

192 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:53:30am

Allen West continues to define the term "chutzpah":

Allen West Compares Himself To Abraham Lincoln

193 jaunte  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:53:49am

re: #188 Lidane

not only does he have no intention of resigning his seat, he'll be running for reelection in 2014.

Sociopath/Narcissist ticket.

194 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:53:50am

re: #191 Gus

He has that backward. half/

195 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:55:53am

I'm in the building industry, high end residential. Rumor going around my local business circles is that there's a lot of pend up demand and waiting on projects till after this fiscal cliff gets worked out. Clients with properties and designs in place, just waiting to mail the deposit check to the builder to get started. This typically happens after presidential elections during financially difficult times or recessions as people wait until the dust clears.

I'm pretty sure that as much as the technical financial shock to the system may contribute, the sheer fact that our government is so dysfunctional will destroy confidence and may be an even more significant impact to a recession than the changes to spending.

196 jaunte  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:56:43am

HuffPo: ...Labor and health care experts portrayed Walmart’s decision to exclude workers from its medical plans as an attempt to limit costs while taking advantage of the national health care reform known as Obamacare. Among the key features of Obamacare is an expansion of Medicaid, the taxpayer-financed health insurance program for poor people. Many of the Walmart workers who might be dropped from the company’s health care plans earn so little that they would qualify for the expanded Medicaid program, these experts said.

“Walmart is effectively shifting the costs of paying for its employees onto the federal government with this new plan, which is one of the problems with the way the law is structured,” said Ken Jacobs, chairman of the Labor Research Center at the University of California, Berkeley.

197 darthstar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:56:48am

I have to say, the news reports I've heard have pretty much been the same...KC football player goes into work, thanks the coaching staff for their support, then kills himself...oh, and he apparently shot his girlfriend to death too.

198 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:57:27am

re: #192 Targetpractice

Allen West continues to define the term "chutzpah":

Allen West Compares Himself To Abraham Lincoln

He just needs a war to seal the deal.

199 jaunte  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:58:52am

re: #197 darthstar

I suppose they went ahead and played the scheduled game despite the murder-suicide.

200 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:00:19am

So, how is the day going?

201 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:00:52am

re: #197 darthstar

[Embedded content]

I have to say, the news reports I've heard have pretty much been the same...KC football player goes into work, thanks the coaching staff for their support, then kills himself...oh, and he apparently shot his girlfriend to death too.

In front of her mom. Really screwed up. I don't want to even consider how the NFL is dealing with this.

202 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:01:57am

The Pope said Jesus was born six years earlier than noted which means it's really 2018 in which case we would have passed 12/21/2012 so we're already dead.

//

203 darthstar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:02:06am

re: #199 jaunte

I suppose they went ahead and played the scheduled game despite the murder-suicide.

They way they're reporting it, it sounds like the first recorded case of suicide-murder. Treating the woman like an afterthought.

And yes, they're playing their game at home.

204 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:02:07am

re: #200 Holidays are Family Fun Time

Peaceful and quiet so far.

205 dragonath  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:02:31am
206 jaunte  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:03:26am

re: #203 darthstar

I guess a moment of silence during a commercial break won't disrupt the cashflow too badly.

207 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:04:06am

re: #200 Holidays are Family Fun Time

So, how is the day going?

I'm finishing up some nice billable design work, then I go here and lose $4 golf balls in the ocean and drink and smoke cigars. And I get a ride home.

208 dragonath  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:05:40am

re: #187 Holidays are Family Fun Time

No, I think his sanity resonated during and after the debates. He needs to keep himself in the public eye.

I dunno, what I remember is his conspicuous silence when the audience started jeering the gay Marine. It wasn't a very flattering moment.

209 darthstar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:08:11am

re: #205 dragonath

Israel withholds Palestinian funds after U.N. vote

They have done this several times in the past. I don't understand the logic. If you want peace, why make moves like this that piss off already trigger-happy people who will respond by launching rockets? Never mind...I answered my own question.

210 darthstar  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:09:49am

re: #206 jaunte

I guess a moment of silence during a commercial break won't disrupt the cashflow too badly.

That would be the Geico Moment Of Silence, narrated by Joe Buck on Fox.

211 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:10:51am

re: #210 darthstar

lol

212 Lidane  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:11:36am

re: #203 darthstar

They way they're reporting it, it sounds like the first recorded case of suicide-murder. Treating the woman like an afterthought.

And yes, they're playing their game at home.

Of course she's an afterthought. She's not an athlete on the field and she doesn't affect anyone's fantasy football leagues. =P

It's galling, quite frankly that his death is overshadowing her murder.

213 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:12:43am

re: #209 darthstar

They have done this several times in the past. I don't understand the logic. If you want peace, why make moves like this that piss off already trigger-happy people who will respond by launching rockets? Never mind...I answered my own question.

Yeah, the Israelis should just totally continue to supply free electricity and water to Palestine and Gaza forever. Oh and all the Jews should just totally leave but still give them free stuff.

That should stop the rockets.

Oh wait...

214 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:16:24am

re: #213 Vicious Babushka

Yeah, the Israelis should just totally continue to supply free electricity and water to Palestine and Gaza forever. Oh and all the Jews should just totally leave but still give them free stuff.

That should stop the rockets.

Oh wait...

Why do they have to supply them with 'free' electricity and water? If you force a group to rely on your largess you exercise control over that group.

215 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:16:32am

re: #211 PhillyPretzel

lol

Hi You! How is the weather this fine Sunday in Philly?
I think the reporting has been pretty fair. I haven't heard any report that didn't start with Javon killing his girlfriend in front of his mother.
( which is weird.. My wife and I never argued in front of our mothers. You'd think we were Ozzie and Harriet )

216 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:18:20am

re: #215 A Man for all Seasons

Hi You! How is the weather this fine Sunday in Philly?
I think the reporting has been pretty fair. I haven't heard any report that didn't start with Javon killing his girlfriend in front of his mother.
( which is weird.. My wife and I never argued in front of our mothers. You'd think we were Ozzie and Harriet )

Were you Ozzie or Harriet?

217 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:18:53am

re: #215 A Man for all Seasons

[Link: www.erh.noaa.gov...] The weather in Philly is so-so. And I am sitting in front of my computer and watching TV.

218 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:20:45am

re: #214 b_sharp

Why do they have to supply them with 'free' electricity and water? If you force a group to rely on your largess you exercise control over that group.

When funds are withheld to pay for the utilities you get the headlines ISRAELIS WITHHOLD PALESTINIAN REVENUE like they are totally stealing, not taking money that is owed to them to pay for stuff like gas, electric and water THAT ORDINARY SLOBS LIKE YOU AND ME HAVE TO PAY FOR or it will be turned off.

219 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:23:39am

re: #216 b_sharp

Were you Ozzie or Harriet?

Heck if I know..That was before my time.. Oh wait I was thinking of leave it to beaver.. That was before my time also

220 jaunte  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:24:43am

Egypt, Hamas agree to link electricity grids

The deal, to be implemented in three stages, begins with Egyptian companies pumping fuel into Gaza under contracts signed with individual companies.

In the next stage, the Islamic Development Bank will fund projects to increase the capacity of Gaza's only power plant by 40 megawatts.

Finally, Gaza will connect its electricity grid to Egypt's and convert the power plant to run on gas instead of diesel.

Egypt decided to let more fuel into Gaza and increase the amount of electricity it supplies to the Palestinian enclave on Tuesday, a move aimed at easing a power crisis that has embarrassed the ruling Hamas movement.

221 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:25:31am

re: #218 Vicious Babushka

When funds are withheld to pay for the utilities you get the headlines ISRAELIS WITHHOLD PALESTINIAN REVENUE like they are totally stealing, not taking money that is owed to them to pay for stuff like gas, electric and water THAT ORDINARY SLOBS LIKE YOU AND ME HAVE TO PAY FOR or it will be turned off.

Oh yeah, on Reuters:

Israel also announced it was withholding Palestinian tax revenues this month worth about $100 million because of a $200 million PA debt to the Israeli Electric Corporation.
Yasser Abed Rabbo, a senior Palestinian official, said confiscation of the funds due the cash-strapped Authority and vital to meeting its payroll, was “piracy and theft”.

Could anyone here get away with not paying their utilities and then crying PIRACY AND THEFT if the power company cut them off?

222 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:25:56am

re: #215 A Man for all Seasons

Hi You! How is the weather this fine Sunday in Philly?
I think the reporting has been pretty fair. I haven't heard any report that didn't start with Javon killing his girlfriend in front of his mother.
( which is weird.. My wife and I never argued in front of our mothers. You'd think we were Ozzie and Harriet )

I don't understand arguing in front of other people. First, it's none of their business and second, I don't need their involvement.

223 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:28:02am

SNAFU

224 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:29:47am

re: #223 Gus

SNAFU

The original internet shorthand word?

225 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:30:12am

I really hate this stuff:

ReTweeting a Tweet or "Liking" a Facebook post DOES ZERO ZIP NADA NICHEVO to "cure cancer" "stop child abuse" or anything else. It makes people "feel good about themselves" but DOES NOTHING.

Donate money, if you want to support these causes. "Liking" and "ReTweeting" is bullshit.

226 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:30:47am

re: #224 Holidays are Family Fun Time

The original internet shorthand word?

W.W.2?

227 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:31:00am

re: #218 Vicious Babushka

When funds are withheld to pay for the utilities you get the headlines ISRAELIS WITHHOLD PALESTINIAN REVENUE like they are totally stealing, not taking money that is owed to them to pay for stuff like gas, electric and water THAT ORDINARY SLOBS LIKE YOU AND ME HAVE TO PAY FOR or it will be turned off.

I understand this is an emotionally charged issue for you. My point was that the idea of Israel giving 'free' stuff to the territories as humanitarian aid is inaccurate. It's a form of control.

It's a well calculated form of control to limit the opportunity for violence, and to provide bargaining chips. Unfortunately the situation there isn't simple, nor is it one sided, which is why the US has tried many times to get both parties to the table. Cashing in any of those chips can be dangerous and result in unexpected consequences.

228 Targetpractice  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:31:10am

re: #223 Gus

SNAFU

Snafu? That's German, right?

//

229 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:32:25am

re: #221 Vicious Babushka

Oh yeah, on Reuters:

Could anyone here get away with not paying their utilities and then crying PIRACY AND THEFT if the power company cut them off?

The situations aren't equivalent.

230 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:33:56am

bbl

231 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:35:22am

re: #222 Holidays are Family Fun Time

I don't understand arguing in front of other people. First, it's none of their business and second, I don't need their involvement.

There may be nothing more uncomfortable than being with a couple fighting.
You try to change the subject but to no avail.

232 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:35:57am

re: #221 Vicious Babushka

Oh yeah, on Reuters:

Could anyone here get away with not paying their utilities and then crying PIRACY AND THEFT if the power company cut them off?

Don't forget the cry and hue is for political expediency. There is a game afoot to gain popular sympathy. Nobody should take it seriously.

233 PhillyPretzel  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:36:20am

re: #228 Targetpractice

[Link: encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com...]

234 jaunte  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:40:33am

Fuel arrives in Gaza under new deal
Wednesday, 04 April 2012

Under the terms of a deal announced on Tuesday, the Palestinian Authority government in the West Bank will supply Gaza with fuel purchased from Israel for so long as the Hamas-controlled Gaza electricity authority pays for it.

Announcing the deal on Tuesday, Hamas spokesman Taher al-Nunu said it would involve the delivery of around 500,000 liters of fuel daily to Gaza.

“The price of the delivery will be covered by the Gaza electricity company’s revenue,” he said.

A spokesman for the PA government confirmed the deal, calling it a “temporary measure” that would be implemented “so long as the electricity company in Gaza continues to pay the petrol company the necessary funds.”

235 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:46:07am

I, uh, oh never mind.

236 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:46:57am

re: #235 Gus

I, uh, oh never mind.

Say what?

237 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:47:41am

re: #236 b_sharp

Say what?

That's me joking about not saying anything. ;)

238 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:48:12am

re: #237 Gus

That's me joking about not saying anything. ;)

So was I.

239 dragonath  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:50:06am

What is the current government's long term plan for the West Bank? It's one thing to cut off funds to a corrupt authority, but I can't understand why Israel would then want to ingratiate themselves even further into the West Bank with the construction of new settlements.

240 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:50:49am

re: #235 Gus

I, uh, oh never mind.

YUHATEMERICA?

241 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:51:53am

I see the "skeptic community" is having more convulsions. This time over Rebecca Watson or something. So much of that "community" is about a cult of personality.

242 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:52:21am

re: #239 dragonath

What is the current government's long term plan for the West Bank? It's one thing to cut off funds to a corrupt authority, but I can't understand why Israel would then want to ingratiate themselves even further into the West Bank with the construction of new settlements.

IMHO settlements are a bad mistake on the path to peace.

243 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:52:55am

re: #242 b_sharp

IMHO settlements are a bad mistake on the path to peace.

244 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:53:10am

re: #241 Gus

I see the "skeptic community" is having more convulsions. This time over Rebecca Watson or something. So much of that "community" is about a cult of personality.

Now what the hell are they bitching about?

245 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:53:53am

re: #239 dragonath

What is the current government's long term plan for the West Bank? It's one thing to cut off funds to a corrupt authority, but I can't understand why Israel would then want to ingratiate themselves even further into the West Bank with the construction of new settlements.

These are not "new settlements," they are existing neighborhoods in heavily populated areas of Jerusalem. It is idiotic to imagine that Israel is going to uproot a large population living in established neighborhoods of Jerusalem.

246 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:54:28am

re: #243 Gus

[Embedded content]

It's too close to colonialism for most people's tastes.

247 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:54:41am

re: #244 b_sharp

Now what the hell are they bitching about?

I don't know exactly yet. Guess she made some goofy speech at some "skeptic" conference. Just saw this:

Science denialism at a skeptic conference

TLDNR and I really have had it with these hipster personalities.

248 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:55:27am

EmoSkeptics™

249 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 10:55:32am

re: #246 b_sharp

It's too close to colonialism for most people's tastes.

All non aboriginals out of North York!

250 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:02:31am

re: #247 Gus

I don't know exactly yet. Guess she made some goofy speech at some "skeptic" conference. Just saw this:

Science denialism at a skeptic conference

TLDNR and I really have had it with these hipster personalities.

Who is TLDNR?

251 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:03:01am

I'm a little confused though. How can the West Bank ever be an independent state if it's dotted with settlements? Would they be evacuated once a peace agreement is settled on? This is leaving Jerusalem out of the equation. How can the West Bank be an independent Palestinian nation if it's dotted with settlements?

252 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:03:11am

re: #250 b_sharp

Who is TLDNR?

Too long, did not read.

253 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:04:14am

re: #251 Gus

I'm a little confused though. How can the West Bank ever be an independent state if it's dotted with settlements? Would they be evacuated once a peace agreement is settled on? This is leaving Jerusalem out of the equation. How can the West Bank be an independent Palestinian nation if it's dotted with settlements?

Some of the remote settlements can be evacuated. Alternatively, the residents could be offered Palestinian citizenship.

254 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:06:01am

re: #249 Vicious Babushka

All non aboriginals out of North York!

Colonialism from a different point of view

255 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:07:51am

re: #254 b_sharp

Colonialism from a different point of view

Everybody go back to their original country!

256 b_sharp  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:10:24am

re: #255 Vicious Babushka

Everybody go back to their original country!

Original countries don't exist.

What we're talking about here are actions that inhibit any peace process.

257 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:11:10am

re: #253 Vicious Babushka

Some of the remote settlements can be evacuated. Alternatively, the residents could be offered Palestinian citizenship.

OK, so this is something that would be considered. I'm still learning and not doing a very good job of educating myself. So if I were to assume that all of the West Bank is Palestine would I be wrong? Or would there be new borders that would need to be agreed upon? Am I agreeing with pre or post 1967 borders?

258 Killgore Trout  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:12:30am

re: #251 Gus

I'm a little confused though. How can the West Bank ever be an independent state if it's dotted with settlements? Would they be evacuated once a peace agreement is settled on? This is leaving Jerusalem out of the equation. How can the West Bank be an independent Palestinian nation if it's dotted with settlements?

There are a series of land swaps that have already been agreed to by both sides. The issue of settlements is relatively easy. . The sticking points in peace negotiations are Palestinian demands about right of return, possession of the Temple mount and having their capitol in East Jerusalem.

259 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:14:51am

Actually, I don't agree with pre-1967 borders.

260 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:16:12am

re: #257 Gus

OK, so this is something that would be considered. I'm still learning and not doing a very good job of educating myself. So if I were to assume that all of the West Bank is Palestine would I be wrong? Or would there be new borders that would need to be agreed upon? Am I agreeing with pre or post 1967 borders?

"Based on the 1948 cease-fire lines with mutually agreed land swaps" -- President Barack Obama (as well as Presidents George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George H. W. Bush, Ronald Reagan)

261 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:16:46am

re: #259 Gus

Actually, I don't agree with pre-1967 borders.

It would be logistically and demographically impossible to retreat to 1967 Jerusalem.

262 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:20:18am

Hey Gus,

You remember that appalling misogynist site, The Spearhead, I posted quotes from a couple of nights ago? The guy who runs that site and others who run sites equally as bad like "The World According to Bob" have their very own forum.

I found it from a reference in one of Bob's posts, if you thought that The Spearhead was bad then you are really going to "love" this place. I give you...

Mens Rights Online

If you really want to know what planet these guys are from then this place ought to give you a pretty good idea. :(

263 dragonath  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:20:50am

About those new settlements:

The Israeli official did not specify where the 3,000 homes would be built, but said the areas for additional “planning and zoning” of housing would include the large Israeli settlement concentrations in the West Bank, among them the town of Maaleh Adumim east of Jerusalem and an area connecting it to the city, known as E-1.

Here's a wikipedia page on Ma'akeh Adumim.

264 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:21:42am

My grandson was being vewy vewy quiet. My daughter went to check up on him and found him on the kitchen floor totally coated in marker ink which he swiped from a top shelf.

Guess who is getting a second bath!

265 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:22:08am

re: #261 Vicious Babushka

It would be logistically and demographically impossible to retreat to 1967 Jerusalem.

Israel would never agree to that either. I think that's obvious but a lot of people seem to think that Israel should go back to pre-1967 borders. It just won't happen and unfortunately that's a big stumbling block. Leaving Jerusalem out I see the borders as in the third second map here which is the 1967 more or less:

Image: Israel_Borders.jpg

Edited.

266 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:25:00am

re: #265 Gus

Israel would never agree to that either. I think that's obvious but a lot of people seem to think that Israel should go back to pre-1967 borders. It just won't happen and unfortunately that's a big stumbling block. Leaving Jerusalem out I see the borders as in the third map here which is the 1967 more or less:

Image: Israel_Borders.jpg

The first picture in that series is not accurate. That is not 100% of "historic Palestine." Historic Palestine (as shown in maps made during the Ottoman era) included areas east of the Jordan river (which today belongs to Jordan), and did not include the Negev.

267 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:27:51am

re: #266 Vicious Babushka

The first picture in that series is not accurate. That is not 100% of "historic Palestine." Historic Palestine (as shown in maps made during the Ottoman era) included areas east of the Jordan river (which today belongs to Jordan), and did not include the Negev.

Fixed.

Image: Israel_Borders.jpg

268 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:29:08am

re: #267 Gus

Fixed.

Image: Israel_Borders.jpg

I'm seeing the same series of maps.

269 efuseakay  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:29:32am

re: #245 Vicious Babushka

These are not "new settlements," they are existing neighborhoods in heavily populated areas of Jerusalem. It is idiotic to imagine that Israel is going to uproot a large population living in established neighborhoods of Jerusalem.

Lest we forget millions of Palestinians were forced out in the 1940's.

270 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:29:53am

re: #269 efuseakay

Lest we forget millions of Palestinians were forced out in the 1940's.

Millions?

271 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:32:06am

re: #268 Vicious Babushka

I'm seeing the same series of maps.

Happened to me too. If you reload the page it shows the new one. I just cropped it.

272 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:32:47am

The Palestinians wouldn't agree with me either so it goes basically back to square one.

273 dragonath  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:42:45am
274 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:43:49am

The reality is that Hamas and others wants all of it and that's just never going to happen. They continue to deny the existence of the state of Israel while expecting others to accept the existence of a state of Palestine. They should at least on a general basis accept its existence and move on from there.

275 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:44:35am

re: #274 Gus

The reality is that Hamas and others wants all of it and that's just never going to happen. They continue to deny the existence of the state of Israel while expecting others to accept the existence of a state of Palestine. They should at least on a general basis accept its existence and move on from there.

THIS.

276 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:53:11am

re: #275 Vicious Babushka

THIS.

They don't even seem to be edging towards this. They're in denial and thinking that it will go back to pre-1947 is magical thinking. Ambassador Prosor was right. They could have had a state by now and it's largely their own fault. They could have settled on the 1967 borders and be done with it.

277 dragonath  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 11:55:25am

Palestinian elections next year should be a lot of fun. Fatah, Hamas, and Barghouti (Independent).

278 Gus  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 12:01:51pm

Errands. bbl

279 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 12:07:39pm

Dave Blount over at Moonbattery shows his amazing incitefulness and the sharpness of his always agile and outside the box thinking...

You can expect marijuana to be not only legal but subsidized by your tax dollars in the foreseeable future, for the same reason the government subsidizes poverty. A stoned electorate is a compliant electorate.

Free welfare blunts for everyone! Yay!

///

The video at that post is anti-legalization but is done in a fairly entertaining rather than preachy way. It isn't just repeating a bunch of discredited talking points, it instead attempts to bring some other ignored points into the discussion.

280 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 12:52:21pm

re: #276 Gus

They don't even seem to be edging towards this. They're in denial and thinking that it will go back to pre-1947 is magical thinking. Ambassador Prosor was right. They could have had a state by now and it's largely their own fault. They could have settled on the 1967 borders and be done with it.

Just So. But please do remember this, because you will sometimes in frustration think of chasing false leads. In those times, remember what you said here.

281 Decatur Deb  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:51:36am

...


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 Frank says:

It's not pretty, also you can't dance to it.