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1 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 4:28:49pm

Patience is a virtue but a son of a b*tch to acquire.

2 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 4:33:56pm

any patience i've ever managed to acquire has been the result of the mortgage ain't a gonna pay itself

3 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 4:48:26pm

I thought Hurricane Season was over.

Not so fast, apparently.

And it might try to do something special. Spain/Portugal Special.

4 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 4:56:56pm

re: #3 ProGunLiberal

I thought Hurricane Season was over.

Not so fast, apparently.

And it might try to do something special. Spain/Portugal Special.

What is that graph supposed to depict?

5 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:00:55pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

Which one?

The top one are models of wind speed, going in increments of 5 knots.

The bottom one is a pressure model, going in increments of 5 mbars.

As you can see, if the 50-50 goes in the weird and bad direction, Spain and Portugal are instantly in trouble. Germany's program has left those two nations so enfeebled, I don't think they would be able to deal with a significant storm.

6 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:13:17pm

re: #5 ProGunLiberal

Which one?

The top one are models of wind speed, going in increments of 5 knots.

The bottom one is a pressure model, going in increments of 5 mbars.

As you can see, if the 50-50 goes in the weird and bad direction, Spain and Portugal are instantly in trouble. Germany's program has left those two nations so enfeebled, I don't think they would be able to deal with a significant storm.

They did it to themselves first though, PLL. It was their own bad decisions that lead them into this mess. Germany may not have helped them much, but it did not set out to ruin them.

7 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:20:42pm

Updated: Paint it black—How Syria methodically erased itself from 'Net
An interesting article worth reading but I found this the most interesting....

That didn't mean that there was no way for Syrian citizens to connect to the outside world. And the US State Department provided communications equipment to "dozens" of local councils in areas of Syria no longer under government control in order to bypass Syria's government-controlled networks.

Ring, ring, ring, ring, Obamaphone!

8 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:20:57pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

When the Euro is tilted towards Germany's favor, what are they supposed to do?

Hopefully Sweden, Finland, and Denmark get the memo, leave the EU, and form a Scandinavian Union with Iceland, Norway, and the little Autonomous regions.

Not only that, but Germany is one of the most hypocritical governments in Europe. They ave missed their own cost-cutting targets, among other things.

What Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, and Cyprus need to do is be able to pay down a large portion of their debts, and form a Southern European Union.

I the game of international regionalization, I have no clue where Turkey fits.

9 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:22:34pm

Shake hands with beef.

Go on, it's good for you.

10 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:23:29pm

re: #8 ProGunLiberal

When the Euro is tilted towards Germany's favor, what are they supposed to do.

Hopefully Sweden, Finland, and Denmark get the memo, leave the EU, and form a Scandinavian Union with Iceland, Norway, and the little Autonomous regions.

Not only that, but Germany is one of the most hypocritical governments in Europe. They ave missed their own cost-cutting targets, among other things.

What Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, and Cyprus need to do is be able to pay down a large portion of their debts, and form a Southern European Union.

I the game of international regionalization, I have no clue where Turkey fits.

The thing is that in forming the Euro, the nations of Southern Europe bound themselves to nations like Germany and the Netherlands. If they were to break that monetary union the value of the currency would plummet and they would inevitably default on their debts.

11 jaunte  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:26:12pm

Not the Onion:

In the top ten of Foreign Policy’s list of the top 100 Global Thinkers: Paul Ryan
[Link: www.foreignpolicy.com...]

12 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:27:52pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

I'm saying they pay their debts and leave. Clearly, the German Government doesn't care about the exploding poverty, the rapid rise of AIDS cases, or slow societal collapse of Greece. All they want is money, damn the human cost. This is why I despise Free-Market Economics. It values money more than people. I have seen very sweet friends turn into Randians.

Both the Scandivanians and Southern Europe should begin to make an Exit plan, perhaps together.

13 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:28:03pm

re: #11 jaunte

FAIL!

14 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:32:41pm

re: #8 ProGunLiberal

little Autonomous regions

which places would those be?

15 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:33:27pm

re: #11 jaunte

Not the Onion:

In the top ten of Foreign Policy’s list of the top 100 Global Thinkers: Paul Ryan
[Link: www.foreignpolicy.com...]

It's a pretty interesting list. #17

16 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:34:56pm

re: #12 ProGunLiberal

I'm saying they pay their debts and leave. Clearly, the German Government doesn't care about the exploding poverty, the rapid rise of AIDS cases, or slow societal collapse of Greece. All they want is money, damn the human cost. This is why I despise Free-Market Economics. It values money more than people. I have seen very sweet friends turn into Randians.

Both the Scandivanians and Southern Europe should begin to make an Exit plan, perhaps together.

The problem is that they can't pay their debts, PLL. These nations aren't like the US, their economies are far weaker. Spain understands its mistakes and given time and peace can likely stabilize itself. But Greece isn't even able to grow its economy, because it can't change its laws and customs to meet market needs. As an example: many professions require a license to engage in them, and the number of licenses has never been enlarged since the colonels' junta of the early 1970's established the licensing system. Proposals to increase the number of taxi licenses have met with riots by the existing taxi drivers, who are unwilling to abide by competition.

17 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:35:36pm

re: #14 engineer cat

The Åland Islands and the Faroe Islands.

The Baltic Triplets should be invited to join as well.

18 jaunte  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:35:45pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

Rand Paul!
[Link: www.foreignpolicy.com...]

19 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:36:16pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

It's a pretty interesting list. #17

#21

Soros, often the object of conspiracy theories for his support for liberal groups in the United States, dialed it back a little this election year -- even going so far as to say that there "isn't all that much difference" between President Barack Obama and contender Mitt Romney.

Outrageous!

20 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:37:14pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

It's a pretty interesting list. #17

George Soros is on the list at number 21 while Dick and Liz Cheney share number 38. This list will please no absolutist, which actually a point in its favor.

21 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:37:51pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

Spain did nothing wrong. They lost most of their industry when the Euro was created, and the cost of labor in Spain skyrocketed, and Germany's plunged. Yes, Greece has endemic problems, but the hyper-free-market solution has never helped anyone.

Look at the Irish Potato Famine for that.

22 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:38:10pm

re: #18 jaunte

Rand Paul!
[Link: www.foreignpolicy.com...]

They buried him pretty far down the list. It is kind of cool. Lots of folks I've never heard of before. The more interesting ones for me so far have been the Tunisian intellectuals.

23 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:40:31pm

re: #21 ProGunLiberal

Spain did nothing wrong. They lost most of their industry when the Euro was created, and the cost of labor in Spain skyrocketed, and Germany's plunged. Yes, Greece has endemic problems, but the hyper-free-market solution has never helped anyone.

Look at the Irish Potato Famine for that.

it's not a case of "hyper free market", PLL, its that the people of Greece don't seem willing to make any major changes at all. It's not like France, where Hollande is taxing the rich but at the same time seeking to reduce unemployment by opening up the labor market. In Greece even talk of such changes sparks riots.

24 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:40:39pm
#30 ELON MUSK

Coolest name ever.

25 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:42:16pm

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

Why do I get the feeling it is somewhat more complicated than that?

Anyone more neutral him, or my religiously influenced view of economic policy tell me what is actually going on?

26 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:50:52pm
27 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:51:55pm

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

it's not a case of "hyper free market", PLL, its that the people of Greece don't seem willing to make any major changes at all. It's not like France, where Hollande is taxing the rich but at the same time seeking to reduce unemployment by opening up the labor market. In Greece even talk of such changes sparks riots.

"The people of Greece" don't want to be the ones who suffer for the corrupt plutocracy they've been supporting for so long.

28 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:53:28pm

re: #27 wrenchwench

Or suffer so Germany can sell military hardware, and that vulture fund types like Mitt Romney, and pick their nation apart.

29 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:54:12pm

re: #25 ProGunLiberal

Why do I get the feeling it is somewhat more complicated than that?

Anyone more neutral him, or my religiously influence view of economic policy tell me what is actually going on?

DF needs to look at Texas in 1986. Between the collapse of oil prices and the collapse of the real estate bubble, Texas was a basket case. The state was saved by the Fed. The SPIG in Europe had no such backstop. They aren't in recession. By any definition, they are in a depression, just as Texas would have been in by '87 without the intervention of the Federal Reserve.

Of course, DF was like, nine, then. Us old farts remember history.

30 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:55:45pm

re: #27 wrenchwench

"The people of Greece" don't want to be the ones who suffer for the corrupt plutocracy they've been supporting for so long.

Who are these plutocrats you speak of? I want to hear your reply before I say anything more.

31 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:58:04pm

PGL - it's fairly standard economics.

The basic problem is that too many places are worried about debt levels when they should be worried about increasing expenditures in ways that pump money into the local economies - jobs, subsides, education, social assistance programs: IOW things where the payroll gets spent in local store lifting all of the local economy which will in turn generate greater tax revenues (because incomes are higher) which in turn pays down the debt, though in a slower more careful manner than certain factions would prefer.

The alternative is austerity which tends to lead to economies falling back into recession or worse. The US in the Recession of 1937-38 is an excellent object lesson in what happens when you stop pumping money into an economy too soon and is why the US didn't fully recover till the war.

32 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:59:28pm

re: #29 austin_blue

DF needs to look at Texas in 1986. Between the collapse of oil prices and the collapse of the real estate bubble, Texas was a basket case. The state was saved by the Fed. The SPIG in Europe had no such backstop. They aren't in recession. By any definition, they are in a depression, just as Texas would have been in by '87 without the intervention of the Federal Reserve.

Of course, DF was like, nine, then. Us old farts remember history.

I turned 9 in November of that year. Again, let me hear what wrenchwench has to say before replying. I want to make sure that there's not something here I don't know about before I continue.

33 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:06:53pm

re: #7 Killgore Trout

Ring, ring, ring;
Ring, ring, ring.
Obamaphone!

FTFY

34 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:08:31pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

Who are these plutocrats you speak of? I want to hear your reply before I say anything more.

The wealthy people who pay little or no taxes and/or their corrupt government enablers. I don't have any names. Here are some:

In early 2010, it was revealed that through the assistance of Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase and numerous other banks, financial products were developed which enabled the governments of Greece, Italy and possibly other countries to hide their borrowing.[103][104] Dozens of similar agreements were concluded across Europe whereby banks supplied cash in advance in exchange for future payments by the governments involved; in turn, the liabilities of the involved countries were "kept off the books".[104]

This had enabled Greek governments to spend beyond their means, while meeting the deficit targets of the European Union.[104][105] In May 2010, the Greek government deficit was again revised and estimated to be 13.6%[106] which was the second highest in the world relative to GDP with Iceland in first place at 15.7% and Great Britain third with 12.6%.[107] Public debt was forecast, according to some estimates, to hit 120% of GDP during 2010.[108]

Here are some more.

35 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:09:54pm

re: #34 wrenchwench

The wealthy people who pay little or no taxes and/or their corrupt government enablers. I don't have any names. Here are some:

Here are some more.

Yup, those guys.

36 dragonath  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:10:33pm

Ann Romney Might Be Taking This Loss Harder Than Mitt

He [Mitt] apparently hasn't decided what he'll do next, but one thing is for sure: "In private, Romney has told friends he has little interest in helping the Republican Party rebuild and rebrand itself," Rucker reports.

But the owner of the most tragic anecdote in the whole story is Mitt's wife, Ann, who really isn't taking things well:
By all accounts, the past month has been most difficult on Romney’s wife, Ann, who friends said believed up until the end that ascending to the White House was their destiny. They said she has been crying in private and trying to get back to riding her horses.

37 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:10:51pm

re: #8 ProGunLiberal

I the game of international regionalization, I have no clue where Turkey the Neo-Ottaman Empire fits.

FTFY (maybe)

38 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:12:30pm

re: #29 austin_blue

Oh yes, Texas in the era of the 80's. Hunt brothers and their silver shenanigans... the S&L disaster... oh, those were the good ol' days.

39 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:12:56pm

re: #36 dragonath

Ann Romney Might Be Taking This Loss Harder Than Mitt

Why would she want to move to a smaller house in an iffy neighborhood?

40 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:13:07pm

re: #34 wrenchwench

The wealthy people who pay little or no taxes and/or their corrupt government enablers. I don't have any names. Here are some:

Here are some more.

That is indeed an abuse, but cannot just be chalked up to malign foreigners. Had Greece had a strong domestic economy, had its legislators done something other than trying to paper over the looming crisis, then Greece would not have asked for financial instruments such as that.

I'd say that the Greek government was the chief corrupt aprty and that it was the banks who were the enablers.

41 jamesfirecat  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:13:27pm

re: #36 dragonath

Ann Romney Might Be Taking This Loss Harder Than Mitt

Just make sure she does not end up strapping Refalka to the roof of her car.

42 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:14:12pm

re: #37 watching you tiny alien kittens are

I find it hard to believe the Arab region to its south will go back to Turkish Control. I think the Middle East will be 4 large region-states over time.

Turkey may end up being an independent nation from all of them for a long time. From Europe, or anyone else.

43 jamesfirecat  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:15:21pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

That is indeed an abuse, but cannot just be chalked up to malign foreigners. Had Greece had a strong domestic economy, had its legislators done something other than trying to paper over the looming crisis, then Greece would not have asked for financial instruments such as that.

I'd say that the Greek government was the chief corrupt aprty and that it was the banks who were the enablers.

If Greece had not had its debt wallpapered over then it never would have switched to the Euro (never been allowed to) and then it's problems would not be creating a domino effect (or at least such a strong one) with the world economy...

44 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:15:26pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

That is indeed an abuse, but cannot just be chalked up to malign foreigners. Had Greece had a strong domestic economy, had its legislators done something other than trying to paper over the looming crisis, then Greece would not have asked for financial instruments such as that.

I'd say that the Greek government was the chief corrupt aprty and that it was the banks who were the enablers.

Not malign foreigners, malign Greeks. Who owns the legislators and the banks? Rich people. More so than in the US.

45 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:17:10pm

re: #36 dragonath

Ann Romney Might Be Taking This Loss Harder Than Mitt

Again? It's December 1st and the media is still going on and on about Mitt and Ann Romney's "feewings" about losing the election.

46 dragonath  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:17:56pm

re: #37 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Turkey is probably the only politically stable country in the region now. Greece is iffy, Syria's gone to hell, Georgia is a rump of a country, and Iran and Iraq have gone full bore fundamentalist.

There are plenty of hard core secularists in Turkey, I think they'll be okay if they can ride out their version of Rick Perry.

47 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:19:12pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

That is indeed an abuse, but cannot just be chalked up to malign foreigners. Had Greece had a strong domestic economy, had its legislators done something other than trying to paper over the looming crisis, then Greece would not have asked for financial instruments such as that.

I'd say that the Greek government was the chief corrupt aprty and that it was the banks who were the enablers.

So why should the people have to pay for what the corrupt politicians and bankers did, while aforesaid corrupt politicians and bankers suffer absolutely no penalties?

48 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:19:31pm

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

it's not a case of "hyper free market", PLL, its that the people of Greece don't seem willing to make any major changes at all. It's not like France, where Hollande is taxing the rich but at the same time seeking to reduce unemployment by opening up the labor market. In Greece even talk of such changes sparks riots.

The Greeks who riot are not the same Greeks who are responsible for the mess their economy is in.

49 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:20:31pm

re: #11 jaunte

Not the Onion:

In the top ten of Foreign Policy’s list of the top 100 Global Thinkers: Paul Ryan
[Link: www.foreignpolicy.com...]

Fresh college graduates with IT degrees being pressured to publish lengthy, deeply thought out and well researched articles every day of the week tend to fail at all but the lengthy part of their objective. More on this shocking news at 11:00!

/

50 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:20:41pm

Seems to me that if some of the real criminals behind Europe's debt crisis were ever brought to justice and made to pay what they really owe, there wouldn't be any crisis.

51 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:21:32pm

Any way, I gotta go home. Later, lizards.

Image: vC3fGL75V0uwUCQi5hfYsg2.jpg

52 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:22:59pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Seems to me that if some of the real criminals behind Europe's debt crisis were ever brought to justice and made to pay what they really owe, there wouldn't be any crisis.

How so, sir?

53 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:23:27pm

To put Rand Paul on a "Top 100" Thinkers list only does one thing: further discredit the publication (Foreign Policy).

A long time ago FP was an academic centric publication. In recent years it's been moving towards being the TMZ of the DC circuit.

54 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:25:25pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

That is indeed an abuse, but cannot just be chalked up to malign foreigners. Had Greece had a strong domestic economy, had its legislators done something other than trying to paper over the looming crisis, then Greece would not have asked for financial instruments such as that.

I'd say that the Greek government was the chief corrupt aprty and that it was the banks who were the enablers.

Why should normal Greek folks (they're like you and me) suffer because their government is an entrenched kleptocracy? Again, Texas would have been Greece in '87 without the intervention of the Fed because of capitalist kleptocrats in the S&Ls. The weakness of the European economy is that they don't have an institution like the Federal Reserve. Unless they get their shit together, it may be fatal to the Euro, which would put a major hurtin' on global trade and industry.

Things are very, very tenuous right now, and it has nothing to do with American fiscal policy. People are much more than happy to buy our bonds because they are the safest port in the present global fiscal storm. What we need here is more stimulus and significant changes to tax policy.

55 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:26:19pm

Another thing that is left silent in these discussions of European economies is that Portugal and Spain are still, 30-something years later, still suffering the effects of the long term damage done to their economies by the fascist regimes that held power for 50 years in those nations. It has been especially difficult to modernize the Spanish economy due to the damage done by the Falange and the Church - this lead to the overreaction during the boom as the socialist government thought they might be able to fix many of the things left undone in decades of reaction in their nation.

56 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:26:36pm

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

Because they're getting away with trillions of Euros, and making the people of Greece pay for it, and no one is holding them accountable.

57 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:27:31pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

Because they're getting away with trillions of Euros, and making the people of Greece pay for it, and no one is holding them accountable.

Exactly. A model kleptocracy.

58 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:28:42pm

re: #55 William Barnett-Lewis

Another thing that is left silent in these discussions of European economies is that Portugal and Spain are still, 30-something years later, still suffering the effects of the long term damage done to their economies by the fascist regimes that held power for 50 years in those nations. It has been especially difficult to modernize the Spanish economy due to the damage done by the Falange and the Church - this lead to the overreaction during the boom as the socialist government thought they might be able to fix many of the things left undone in decades of reaction in their nation.

How did the Catholic Church damage the Spanish economy during the 20th Century? I'm not saying it didn't, but I really want you to elaborate on this point.

59 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:29:04pm

re: #46 dragonath

I'm thinking, over the long term, Georgia may get back those 2 regions. Russia is governmentally in a bad spot. Eventually, Putin's regime will buckle.

I'm thinking Russia in the long term may lose much of the North Caucasus.

At this time, we should think about Expanding NATO Again. Allow Morocco and Libya to join.

60 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:30:41pm

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

How did the Catholic Church damage the Spanish economy during the 20th Century? I'm not saying it didn't, but I really want you to elaborate on this point.

They slept with Franco. Didn't like the Liberals. Shocka!

61 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:32:32pm

re: #57 austin_blue

Exactly. A model kleptocracy.

And how do you reform a kleptocracy from the outside? Because that really is the heart of the matter if kleptocracy is what we're talking about. And we have tried to do that in Iraq and Afghanistan, but of the two only Iraq shows any improvement and that relatively marginal. We've sponsored civil society programs in other nations to reduce corruption (I know we have because I've talked to people who work in them), and yet our efforts only yield modest results.

62 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:32:44pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

The problem is bigger than any corrupt government, though. The divide between the ECB and EU national governments is so large that it turned out the fiscal policies of any national government can not be sufficiently moderated by concerns about the currency. This is the PIIGS problem - each government did whatever it could (whether or not the politicians were "corrupt") because they didn't have to pay the immediate price, so to speak, in their currency, because the currency is shared with so many other nations.

The ECB and the Euro are an experiment that has suffered because the nations involved were not willing to give up the sovereignty needed - IOW, to have their spending and taxation limited by the EU as a whole.

So now, unwillingly, these nations are having to surrender a modicum of their sovereignty - in this case being forced to reduced domestic spending.

European integration is a very long term project. I note that many of the right wing types love to fantasize over the collapse of the EU - a leftover from the Anti-Christ scaremongering of preachers in this country (e.g., Hal Lindsay.) Their European ideological allies who hate the EU tend to be of the fascistic type, because fascism is tightly coupled to nationalism, and the EU project is about weakening the differences between nations, not about reinforcing them.

63 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:34:10pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Seems to me that if some of the real criminals behind Europe's debt crisis were ever brought to justice and made to pay what they really owe, there wouldn't be any crisis.

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

How so, sir?

*grabs popcorn*

64 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:36:25pm

re: #50 Charles Johnson

Seems to me that if some of the real criminals behind Europe's debt crisis were ever brought to justice and made to pay what they really owe, there wouldn't be any crisis.

But, but, that would be Socialism! The re-distribution of wealth that was properly gained through market manipulation! Don't you know that when a country is on the ropes and cannot pay the debt it already owes that the best thing to do is loan them even more and raise the interest rates on that debt to above 18%? This isn't a scheme to line our own pockets even more, no, don't be silly, it is to teach them...err...responsibility!

Meanwhile the Neo-Nazi facist Golden Dawn gains strength and writes articles about seizing power, declaring independence from the European Union, followed by the ethnic cleansing of Greece, and requesting Nuclear missiles from Russia to point at Europe to make them back down from contesting the coming regime change.

Brilliant.

65 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:37:02pm

re: #63 TedStriker

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

*grabs popcorn*

Hope you've got a movie to watch while you eat that, because I'm not going to get into quarrel with Charles. It would gain me nothing. I intend to keep a civil tongue and proceed calmly and carefully.

66 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:39:31pm

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

How did the Catholic Church damage the Spanish economy during the 20th Century? I'm not saying it didn't, but I really want you to elaborate on this point.

Predominately through anti-union activism & suppression of women in the labor market ("traditional" roles) as well as suppressing intellectual freedom in academia and the media. Falangist Spain made the Soviet press seem rather free at times and that was whole heartedly supported by the church.

Finally was the support it gave to the government for the wholesale slaughter of anyone who made even a peep of protest. By giving the government the "color of their authority", they were essentially saying these extrajudicial murders were Just.

These were many of the same things that the church would do, based on the experiences in Spain and Portugal, in upholding the far right regimes in Central & South America. To paraphrase an infamous US Army spokesman, they were happy to destroy freedom to protect freedom from the Communists.

67 TedStriker  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:39:44pm

re: #65 Dark_Falcon

Not saying that you'd get funky with Charles, only that it would be an interesting exchange.

68 freetoken  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:40:26pm

Good grief, I see Japan has had another disaster.

69 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:42:00pm

re: #64 watching you tiny alien kittens are

Meanwhile the Neo-Nazi facist Golden Dawn gains strength and writes articles about independence from European Union, the ethnic cleansing of Greece, and requesting Nuclear missiles from Russia to point at Europe and make them back down from contesting the coming regime change.

Brilliant.

There's some elements from the past there, that being Russia's traditional vision of itself as the protector of Orthodox Christianity. And I could easily see fascists like Golden Dawn Bleak Dusk seeking the favor of Vladimir Putin.

Of course, such a development would scare the wits out of Turkey, for another prong of that Russian vision was the eventual capture of Istanbul by Russia (often complete with visions of converting the Hagia Sofia back into a Church). Serious ethnic irrendentism may thus be seen in play.

70 Gus  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:42:39pm
71 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:44:07pm
72 dragonath  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:44:34pm

The Euro has ...issues... with rinky-dink countries like Luxembourg where the corporate tax rate is pretty much nil, provided a company has a residence there. Multinational corporations have been funneling their money through these loopholes for years.

It's pretty much a case of tax parasitism, but it is legal under EU law:

EU rules allow companies to establish subsidiaries in Luxembourg and levy VAT at Luxembourg's low VAT rate on sales to customers across the bloc.

This has come up in the news most recently with eBay (same article):

Britain and Germany may have missed out on a combined $1 billion in sales tax since online marketplace eBay picked a tiny Luxembourg office as its base for EU sales, a shift that lawmakers say should now be investigated.

EBay's nomination of Luxembourg unit eBay Europe Sarl - with a staff of nine - as its provider of services to EU clients allows it to charge customers in Europe a low rate of sales tax, often known as Value Added Tax, helping it to compete against rivals.

Of course, Greece can't even begin to "compete" against the tax rates of a small state like Luxembourg, which only needs to provide for 500,000 people.

73 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:45:09pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

And how do you reform a kleptocracy from the outside? Because that really is the heart of the matter if kleptocracy is what we're talking about. And we have tried to do that in Iraq and Afghanistan, but of the two only Iraq shows any improvement and that relatively marginal. We've sponsored civil society programs in other nations to reduce corruption (I know we have because I've talked to people who work in them), and yet our efforts only yield modest results.

You do what the European Central Bank has done in Greece, but you don't let Spain and Portugal, which have no such problems, wither on the vine. Again, Europe's Central bank does *not* operate like the Federal Reserve, to the detriment of the Union as a whole.

74 engineer cat  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:46:30pm

what ever caused anybody to think that national economies could be brought back to life by book-balancing exercises?

75 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:46:54pm

re: #66 William Barnett-Lewis

Predominately through anti-union activism & suppression of women in the labor market ("traditional" roles) as well as suppressing intellectual freedom in academia and the media. Falangist Spain made the Soviet press seem rather free at times and that was whole heartedly supported by the church.

Finally was the support it gave to the government for the wholesale slaughter of anyone who made even a peep of protest. By giving the government the "color of their authority", they were essentially saying these extrajudicial murders were Just.

These were many of the same things that the church would do, based on the experiences in Spain and Portugal, in upholding the far right regimes in Central & South America. To paraphrase an infamous US Army spokesman, they were happy to destroy freedom to protect freedom from the Communists.

That seems odd, given Catholic support for organized labor here in the US. Although its not surprising that clergy in nations with a larger Communist presence felt differently, given Communism's well-earned reputation for brutality towards Catholicism.

76 dragonath  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:49:11pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

Communism was brutal against independent trade unions too, you know.

77 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:49:36pm

re: #74 engineer cat

what ever caused anybody to think that national economies could be brought back to life by book-balancing exercises?

i don't know, but I do know that its not an premise that anyone who'd read and understood Milton Friedman would have accepted.

78 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:50:49pm

re: #76 dragonath

Communism was brutal against independent trade unions too, you know.

Yes, I am well aware of that.

79 CarleeCork  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:52:52pm

re: #74 engineer cat

what ever caused anybody to think that national economies could be brought back to life by book-balancing exercises?

You mean, logic?

80 austin_blue  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:54:24pm

re: #68 freetoken

Good grief, I see Japan has had another disaster.

A partial mountain highway tunnel collapse. Alpine countries deal with this occasionally. Certainly not a disaster in the true sense of the word. Sad, though.

81 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 6:59:29pm

re: #70 Gus

Peanut Butter, The Atheist's Nightmare!

[Embedded content]

Crap, a quick search shows that the video or comments on it have already been published on FSTDT four times, I thought maybe I had freebie to submit without looking for it. :(

Still quite an "interesting" approach to taking down the theory of evolution though, thanks. ;)

82 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 7:00:43pm

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

That seems odd, given Catholic support for organized labor here in the US. Although its not surprising that clergy in nations with a larger Communist presence felt differently, given Communism's well-earned reputation for brutality towards Catholicism.

Most of that pro-labor support has historically been in opposition to Rome & is being rather enthusiastically suppressed in the US these days.


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