Climate Denial Crock of the Week: Arctic Death Spiral Continues
I asked a leading ice expert to put the Beaufort Sea winter ice breakup in context
greenman3610Science • Views: 24,672
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| 2 |
Kragar Sun, Apr 7, 2013 9:05:00pm |
Global warming is nothing to worry about because God told a bunch of sheepherders he would take care of everything 3000 years ago.
So that should be the last we have to hear about climate change.
/
| 3 |
William Barnett-Lewis Sun, Apr 7, 2013 9:15:32pm |
re: #2 Kragar
Global warming is nothing to worry about because God told a bunch of sheepherders he would take care of everything 3000 years ago.
So that should be the last we have to hear about climate change.
/
Eh, God only promised Noah that he’d not do the dirty work himself again. He never said word boo about letting us kill ourselves off.
| 4 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 7, 2013 9:16:27pm |
Love that clip of Monckton with his headphones inside out.
| 5 |
wrenchwench Sun, Apr 7, 2013 9:26:18pm |
re: #4 Charles Johnson
Love that clip of Monckton with his headphones inside out.
He’s one channel short of a stereo.
| 8 |
freetoken Sun, Apr 7, 2013 9:49:34pm |
This is a very tough topic by which to gain any traction in changing the actions of our society.
Some, maybe even the majority, will give lip service to the idea that human actions are changing the climate.
Taking action to stop, or reverse, that change so far has proven too difficult.
There are probably many, many reasons for this, but I have concluded that at the top of the pile is that we, humans, discount the future greatly, especially past a few weeks, an most definitely past the next season.
Climate projections often were done out to the year 2100, as a nice round number, but getting people worked up enough to get them to change their habits proved not to work with this approach. The past couple of years activists have tried to tie recent weather disasters to climate change (which in some cases was supportable, in others perhaps not so much) as a more pressing representation of the bigger problem, but even here success has been hard to find.
The Great Recession of 2007-2008 did more to reduce US carbon emissions than any campaign done by activists.
This is a tough nut to crack, and I don’t have answers, just questions.
| 9 |
freetoken Sun, Apr 7, 2013 9:58:26pm |
A related tough nut is paralleled in health, food, and statistics.
We all know about the faddism around vaccines as the cause of autism.
Yet there are many other ailments which also get tied, in the public’s mind, to this or that magical cause with little, or controversial, scientific discovery.
I’ve been reading quite a bit about genetics and genetic testing lately, and in forums there is a steady stream of posters going down the all-to-common path of misattributing causes because of some correlation.
Likewise activists of various interests using whatever the hot-topic happens to be to push their own long running agendas.
There is no doubt that medical science has discovered causes to many ailments. It’s not a mystery why high consumption of fructose is correlated to obesity and diabetes, for example. However, there are many health issues for which easy answers are not coming, and also many discoveries are unveiling that once was thought of as a disease may indeed be a cluster of diseases with similar symptoms.
We live in a universe with many complex parts and modern science has pulled back the covers on some of this complexity. Yet as humans we often seek simple answers to our pressing issues.
Yet simple answers may simply mislead.
Try selling that to the masses.
| 10 |
engineer cat Sun, Apr 7, 2013 11:15:50pm |
re: #2 Kragar
Global warming is nothing to worry about because God told a bunch of sheepherders he would take care of everything 3000 years ago.
god gave noah
that rainbow sign
no more water
the fire next time
| 11 |
SteveMcGazi Sun, Apr 7, 2013 11:27:27pm |
When I see a rainbow, I don’t see the part where it says anything about God not doing that again. Maybe the guy who wrote that part of the Bible was stoned.
| 12 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 12:06:58am |
Rush already told us that the scientific establishment is already just a wing of the Democrat party.
| 13 |
boredtechindenver Mon, Apr 8, 2013 12:39:48am |
kitties
I think the flash woke them.
Image: kitties.jpg
| 17 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 2:49:54am |
How is the military going to respond to calls for budget cuts? Dropping expensive and useless projects? Or by curtailing health care benefits?
From an article in Slate
Lawrence Korb, former assitant sec’y of defense:
…”we’re going to have to do something or we’re going to end up like General Motors and spending everything on people not working for us anymore.”
Except that nobody signed up to put their lives on the line to build Oldsmobiles.
And we are paying the price for improved medical care: it was cheaper for the military to just pay off a lump sum to dead soldiers’ survivors than to take care of them for the rest of their lives.
| 18 |
Targetpractice Mon, Apr 8, 2013 3:02:16am |
re: #17 Sol Berdinowitz
How is the military going to respond to calls for budget cuts? Dropping expensive and useless projects? Or by curtailing health care benefits?
From an article in Slate
Lawrence Korb, former assitant sec’y of defense:
…”we’re going to have to do something or we’re going to end up like General Motors and spending everything on people not working for us anymore.”
Except that nobody signed up to put their lives on the line to build Oldsmobiles.
And we are paying the price for improved medical care: it was cheaper for the military to just pay off a lump sum to dead soldiers’ survivors than to take care of them for the rest of their lives.
Because with the way most project contracts are written, if the cost of ending it isn’t financially crippling, the terms of killing it “correctly” will be so draconian that it’s virtually guaranteed that the whole thing will end up in court, with the company claiming breach of contract.
That’s if the government doesn’t take them to court for failure to produce anything and accusations of fraud.
| 19 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 3:17:47am |
re: #18 Targetpractice
Because with the way most project contracts are written, if the cost of ending it isn’t financially crippling, the terms of killing it “correctly” will be so draconian that it’s virtually guaranteed that the whole thing will end up in court, with the company claiming breach of contract.
That’s if the government doesn’t take them to court for failure to produce anything and accusations of fraud.
The way the most sensitive and “innovative” projects are written is cost-plus, no-bid, i.e., a license to print money. Who is gonna give that up without a fight?
| 20 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 3:26:52am |
| 22 |
freetoken Mon, Apr 8, 2013 3:45:16am |
Many people don’t know that Les Baxter had the original hit:
| 23 |
freetoken Mon, Apr 8, 2013 3:45:45am |
Remember that, if you ever find yourself on Jeopardy!
| 26 |
freetoken Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:29:43am |
re: #25 FemNaziBitch
I’ll note that those products get subsidies either directly or via tax breaks from the US government.
| 27 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:31:39am |
| 28 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:32:03am |
re: #26 freetoken
I’ll note that those products get subsidies either directly or via tax breaks from the US government.
I don’t think Walmart or any other receipts say “FOOD STAMP PURCHASE” at the bottom —first of all because there are no “food Stamps” anymore.
If anything, it would say SNAP or LINK or something specific to the State. And I’ not sure the software has any real way of determining the source of funds —the purchase is either Credit, Debit, Cash or EBT. In my experience, anyway.
| 29 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:32:33am |
re: #26 freetoken
I just really don’t spend much time giving a shit what other people eat. I’d prefer it if they ate healthy but since it’s to their detriment if they don’t it hardly hurts me.
It’s odd to me that some people look at people buying junk food with food stamps and think “Those jerks are buying cookies with MY MONEY arrrgh!” and get all angry. First of all, buying cookies still puts money back into the economy the exact same way spending the amount on bananas would; food stamps are good for the economy. Second of all, it makes me think that we need better food and nutrition information, and that the junk food manufacturers are assholes.
| 30 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:32:46am |
re: #27 Vicious Babushka
Alcoholic beverages may not be purchased with food stamps.
That’s probably what the $11 cash tendered was for.
| 31 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:34:50am |
re: #29 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
I just really don’t spend much time giving a shit what other people eat. I’d prefer it if they ate healthy but since it’s to their detriment if they don’t it hardly hurts me.
It’s odd to me that some people look at people buying junk food with food stamps and think “Those jerks are buying cookies with MY MONEY arrrgh!” and get all angry. First of all, buying cookies still puts money back into the economy the exact same way spending the amount on bananas would; food stamps are good for the economy. Second of all, it makes me think that we need better food and nutrition information, and that the junk food manufacturers are assholes.
I think we are getting robbed by the Food Company Lobbyists who ensure poor people can eat crap. It’s insane that the UPC’s are allowed.
| 32 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:37:44am |
The whole reason that the Food Stamps program (or whatever it’s called now) was created in the first place, was to dispense the government surplus of dairy cheese and HFCS.
Wingnuts like to complain that “moochers” are using “food stamps” to buy junk food. They think Teh Poors should know their place and only be allowed to use “food stamps” for beans, rice & gruel.
| 33 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:42:21am |
re: #32 Vicious Babushka
The whole reason that the Food Stamps program (or whatever it’s called now) was created in the first place, was to dispense the government surplus of dairy cheese and HFCS.
Wingnuts like to complain that “moochers” are using “food stamps” to buy junk food. They think Teh Poors should know their place and only be allowed to use “food stamps” for beans, rice & gruel.
I think a big part of the problem is that convienience stores are pretty much the only type of stores many of the poorer communities have within walking distance. So the crap food they sell is what people buy. Well, those UPC’s are allowed and provide no nutritional value. If they weren’t allowed, then the stores would have to stock fruit, real bread, and juice. Which would you rather eat on a regular basis?
| 34 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:49:03am |
re: #33 FemNaziBitch
I think a big part of the problem is that convienience stores are pretty much the only type of stores many of the poorer communities have within walking distance. So the crap food they sell is what people buy. Well, those UPC’s are allowed and provide no nutritional value. If they weren’t allowed, then the stores would have to stock fruit, real bread, and juice. Which would you rather eat on a regular basis?
I know all about “food deserts.” It is true that major grocery chains do not have stores within the Detroit city limits (they claim it’s not worth it because of (fear of) shoplifting), however there are plenty of independent grocers and smaller chains where people can buy fresh food. But yeah a lot of people without mobility are restricted to the corner bodega and convenience store.
The City of Detroit is trying to get major grocery chains to open stores within the city limits. Whole Foods (the most EXPENSIVE grocery!) has agreed to open a store, for hefty incentives.
| 35 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:49:45am |
re: #33 FemNaziBitch
Also, ‘plain white bread’ is almost as bad for you as a bag full of corn nuts.
NYC subsidizes guys with carts that have fresh fruits and veggies on streetcorners. It works.
| 36 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:51:33am |
re: #34 Vicious Babushka
re: #35 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
That’s awesome.
I have a hard time believing that most people would feed themselves or their kids crap on a regular basis if they had alternatives. I also don’t believe that “poor” people are too stupid to know the difference. People like good food.
| 37 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:55:58am |
re: #35 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
Also, ‘plain white bread’ is almost as bad for you as a bag full of corn nuts.
NYC subsidizes guys with carts that have fresh fruits and veggies on streetcorners. It works.
Detroit should do something like that. I remember a guy with a fruit truck coming around our neighborhood in the ‘70’s. He was a Holocaust survivor and he showed my kids his tattoos and told them about his experiences. There was also an egg truck. Those trucks (along with the milk truck) should all return to the streets of Detroit.
| 38 |
Targetpractice Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:55:58am |
Well, things are gonna be rather awkward for the next few days:
BREAKING: Former UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher has died from a stroke -BW— The Associated Press (@AP) April 8, 2013
| 39 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:56:52am |
re: #36 FemNaziBitch
Oh, there’s a lot of people that know nothing about nutrition. There’s also a lot of people who think they do, and are all nutritionally fucked up by trying to follow some fad diet or another.
Real nutrition advice is easy: Don’t eat a lot. Eat mostly vegetables. Eat as little processed stuff as possible.
Again, I recommend In Defense of Food.
But we have the advertising industry trying to convince people that this or that is healthy, or at least not bad for you. Juice, for example, is routinely presented as though it’s ‘healthy’, especially compared to soda, and while it’s healthier than soda, it’s a big glass of sugar, with no fiber, no pulp, etc. You couldn’t eat as many oranges as you can drink— juice is concentrated food. But because it’s from fruits, most people think it’s ‘healthy’.
| 40 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 4:59:04am |
re: #39 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
Oh, there’s a lot of people that know nothing about nutrition. There’s also a lot of people who think they do, and are all nutritionally fucked up by trying to follow some fad diet or another.
Real nutrition advice is easy: Don’t eat a lot. Eat mostly vegetables. Eat as little processed stuff as possible.
Again, I recommend In Defense of Food.
But we have the advertising industry trying to convince people that this or that is healthy, or at least not bad for you. Juice, for example, is routinely presented as though it’s ‘healthy’, especially compared to soda, and while it’s healthier than soda, it’s a big glass of sugar, with no fiber, no pulp, etc. You couldn’t eat as many oranges as you can drink— juice is concentrated food. But because it’s from fruits, most people think it’s ‘healthy’.
I agree. I think the idea in many minds is that poor people wouldn’t choose a hamburger made at home from ground beef they bought themselves over a bag of corns chips. That is bullshit.
People enjoy the ritual of cooking, serving and eating together.
| 41 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:05:43am |
re: #40 FemNaziBitch
My mom actually spends time with a group that teaches people who live in residency hotels in the Tenderloin of SF (bad part of town) how to cook using just a kettle, hotplate, and microwave, since their rooms don’t have an oven. She also teaches them how to keep food, which is actually something a lot of them don’t know (they put tomatoes in the fridge, for example).
She has said only a fraction of them turn this into practical reality and actually cook those meals, but the others do at least change their eating habits and make better food purchases. A lot of older men, especially, have just no confidence in learning how to cook.
Still, even the ones who don’t change their food purchases still benefit just by knowing that people took the time to come by. For some of them, it’s just socialization, but Sapolsky’s research has shown this is a direct health benefit too.
Anyway: It can be hard to teach cooking and nutrition, especially working against the behemoth of advertising, but it’s totally possible.
| 42 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:07:23am |
re: #38 Targetpractice
Well, things are gonna be rather awkward for the next few days:
Hope they remember to bury her in her asbestos underwear for when she’s Ronnie’s roommate downstairs…
| 43 |
Targetpractice Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:09:25am |
re: #42 William Barnett-Lewis
Hope they remember to bury her in her asbestos underwear for when she’s Ronnie’s roommate downstairs…
This is over four years old, but I imagine it’ll be getting alot more viewership in coming days:
| 44 |
A Mom Anon Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:21:33am |
The newest paranoia from my weird neighbors in their “compound” next door:
OMG!! The IRS is using Facebook to find out if you’re a right wing activist or hate the President and they’ll come after you and audit you and otherwise make your life miserable for being a Fighter For Freedumb.
I really wish we could move.
| 45 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:23:21am |
re: #44 A Mom Anon
The newest paranoia from my weird neighbors in their “compound” next door:
OMG!! The IRS is using Facebook to find out if you’re a right wing activist or hate the President and they’ll come after you and audit you and otherwise make your life miserable for being a Fighter For Freedumb.
I really wish we could move.
Tell them it is absolutely true and they should totally stop using Facebook and Twitter and all social media.
| 46 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:27:38am |
re: #36 FemNaziBitch
re: #35 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
That’s awesome.
I have a hard time believing that most people would feed themselves or their kids crap on a regular basis if they had alternatives. I also don’t believe that “poor” people are too stupid to know the difference. People like good food.
Bread is one of the oddities though. To many the pasty crap is the definition of “bread” to them and therefore that’s what they go for. There was a PBS show a ways back about food kitchens and such and one place was getting supplies of day-old Wonder bread from an outlet and also whole wheat and multi-grain loaves from a local bakery. The Wonder bread ran out well before the better product.
(Caveat: That puffy Wonder bread stuff is the secret to getting really flat toasted cheese sandwiches though. Press all the air out and you can get an almost wafer thin sandwich!) ;)
| 47 |
A Mom Anon Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:29:49am |
re: #45 Vicious Babushka
LOL, I think I will. Honest to god, the other day the husband put up a post that showed that Obama has actually spent less in office than some of his predecessors and he said it was a lie and laughable, and yet he had nothing that would refute that except his opinion. I’m guessing their TV and radios aren’t tuned to anything but FOX and conservative talk on the radio. The husband is also a recovering addict, and I think he replaced his drug and alcohol use with far right Catholic doctrine(very anti abortion- to the point of madness) and super conservative right wing politics. Kind of like Dave Mustaine only with more guns and less hair.
| 48 |
Hercules Grytpype-Thynneghazi Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:30:43am |
re: #3 William Barnett-Lewis
Eh, God only promised Noah that he’d not do the dirty work himself again. He never said word boo about letting us kill ourselves off.
Tell that to James Inhofe:
Well actually the Genesis 8:22 that I use in there is that “as long as the earth remains there will be seed time and harvest, cold and heat, winter and summer, day and night,” my point is, God’s still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous.
| 49 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:30:49am |
re: #46 Feline Fearless Leader
The ‘whole wheat’ really isn’t a hell of a lot better. It’s still processed to hell and concentrated as blazes. Bread, pasta, rice, and processed corn are basically the most crap parts of most diets.
| 50 |
A Mom Anon Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:37:00am |
re: #49 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
I’d just like to see a percentage of all those farm subsidies go to fruit and vegetable growers, wouldn’t that be sort of helpful in the long term?
| 51 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:43:53am |
re: #49 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
The ‘whole wheat’ really isn’t a hell of a lot better. It’s still processed to hell and concentrated as blazes. Bread, pasta, rice, and processed corn are basically the most crap parts of most diets.
Last Thursday I had to bake challah for the first time after Pesach and I grabbed the first bag of flour from inside the utility pantry (where we jammed all our “chametz” stuff and most of it was still in there.) Well, I made the dough before I realized that I grabbed the wrong bag of flour, it was “bleached, enriched” instead of the “unbleached, high-gluten, bread flour” that I normally use.
Still, home-baked challah still beats anything that you can buy at the bakeries.
| 52 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:44:04am |
re: #50 A Mom Anon
I’d just like to see a percentage of all those farm subsidies go to fruit and vegetable growers, wouldn’t that be sort of helpful in the long term?
Only if the subsidy passes down to affect prices. Or it might be bad in the long run since it’s an incentive for fruit and vegetable growing to become more corporate in structure. (Assuming it is not already so.)
Besides, why do you want to send foreign aid to those socialist banana interests in Central America!?!
;)
| 53 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:44:15am |
re: #50 A Mom Anon
It probably does, no reason to think it doesn’t. But even then, a lot of vegetables have been bred (or directly GMOed) to be more portable, keep longer, but less nutritious.
That’s part of what annoys me about people moaning about GMO stuff. GMO isn’t the problem. Sure, there’s the possibility of something we GMOed running amuck, but the natural world does just fine on providing that sort of shit anyway. The real problem is that we’re GMOing the wrong attributes, we’re turning food into more of a product and less of a, y’know, ‘eat this so we can live’ thing.
| 54 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:46:32am |
re: #51 Vicious Babushka
Last Thursday I had to bake challah for the first time after Pesach and I grabbed the first bag of flour from inside the utility pantry (where we jammed all our “chametz” stuff and most of it was still in there.) Well, I made the dough before I realized that I grabbed the wrong bag of flour, it was “bleached, enriched” instead of the “unbleached, high-gluten, bread flour” that I normally use.
Still, home-baked challah still beats anything that you can buy at the bakeries.
Well, I get a nice multi-grain baquette from one of the locals.
I’m also guilty of baking up frozen biscuits when I am too lazy to mix a batch up from scratch. Have to fight the cats off either way. (New cats twigged to the wonder that are buttermilk biscuits right away.)
| 56 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:50:42am |
re: #53 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
It probably does, no reason to think it doesn’t. But even then, a lot of vegetables have been bred (or directly GMOed) to be more portable, keep longer, but less nutritious.
That’s part of what annoys me about people moaning about GMO stuff. GMO isn’t the problem. Sure, there’s the possibility of something we GMOed running amuck, but the natural world does just fine on providing that sort of shit anyway. The real problem is that we’re GMOing the wrong attributes, we’re turning food into more of a product and less of a, y’know, ‘eat this so we can live’ thing.
Probably a better way to spend some of that subsidy money is teaching small plot gardening in the cities — and getting cities to allocate space and resources to helping neighborhoods set up plots for people to get and use. (Philly has these spotted here and there around Center City - there is a nice fenced off limited-access area along the river near the dog park full of plots.) Besides possibly helping with education, nutrition, etc. it is also builds community and is something to take pride in about the neighborhood.
| 57 |
efuseakay Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:52:48am |
re: #44 A Mom Anon
The newest paranoia from my weird neighbors in their “compound” next door:
OMG!! The IRS is using Facebook to find out if you’re a right wing activist or hate the President and they’ll come after you and audit you and otherwise make your life miserable for being a Fighter For Freedumb.
I really wish we could move.
Notice how all these folks still continue to use that same social media anyways…
| 58 |
Mattand Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:54:33am |
re: #44 A Mom Anon
The newest paranoia from my weird neighbors in their “compound” next door:
OMG!! The IRS is using Facebook to find out if you’re a right wing activist or hate the President and they’ll come after you and audit you and otherwise make your life miserable for being a Fighter For Freedumb.
I really wish we could move.
I had my neighbor threaten us once, because (per his “request”) that we ask his wife to pick up after their dogs when they went #2 in our yard.
You’ve got all of my neighbor problems beat handily. Hang in there.
| 59 |
A Mom Anon Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:54:50am |
re: #53 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
I was out buying seedlings the other day and Home Depot actually had the same tomato Heinz uses for ketchup on sale. No thanks, I’ll keep growing the heirlooms I’ve been growing for the last 10 yrs.
I agree though, the GMO thing is still up for debate as far as safety goes(I honestly don’t know enough about it to have a big discussion), but the taste and nutrition of a lot of veggies in the stores is not in doubt. It would be nice to see something to support local growers who give a damn about quality, taste and nutrition. Farmer’s market subsidies maybe? Incentives for farmers to grow with less chemistry and more natural means? Incentives to grow more than one thing? I don’t know, it would be nice to see something new that had a positive effect.
| 60 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:56:56am |
re: #59 A Mom Anon
I was out buying seedlings the other day and Home Depot actually had the same tomato Heinz uses for ketchup on sale. No thanks, I’ll keep growing the heirlooms I’ve been growing for the last 10 yrs.
I agree though, the GMO thing is still up for debate as far as safety goes(I honestly don’t know enough about it to have a big discussion), but the taste and nutrition of a lot of veggies in the stores is not in doubt. It would be nice to see something to support local growers who give a damn about quality, taste and nutrition. Farmer’s market subsidies maybe? Incentives for farmers to grow with less chemistry and more natural means? Incentives to grow more than one thing? I don’t know, it would be nice to see something new that had a positive effect.
Sounds like some sort of leftist socialist talk there? What do you have against good capitalists?
//
| 61 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:58:59am |
Most of the Derp on Twitter today is moonbats cursing Maggie Thatcher. Stay classy, guys.
| 62 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:59:23am |
re: #59 A Mom Anon
Incentives for farmers to grow with less chemistry and more natural means?
It’s not even that it’s ‘chemical’. You can do selective breeding without any direct alteration— you just breed together the tomatoes that, while less flavorful, hold together better for a few generations, and hey presto, a new tomato.
The problem is not one easily solved with regulatory micromanagement and incentive. There’s plenty of good cases to be made for making foods that keep for long periods of time, since we have a lot of people far removed from the places these things grow. The problem isn’t making them tough and durable, it’s doing it at the expense of nutrition. And it doesn’t have to be that way. We can make a tomato that’s durable and that has high nutritional content.
I don’t know how to best encourage ‘farmers’ to grow healthier vegetables. It’s a complex problem.
| 63 |
A Mom Anon Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:59:38am |
re: #60 Feline Fearless Leader
Yeah, well I am a radical leftist you know. Mwahahaha.
| 64 |
Mattand Mon, Apr 8, 2013 5:59:57am |
re: #59 A Mom Anon
I was out buying seedlings the other day and Home Depot actually had the same tomato Heinz uses for ketchup on sale. No thanks, I’ll keep growing the heirlooms I’ve been growing for the last 10 yrs.
I agree though, the GMO thing is still up for debate as far as safety goes(I honestly don’t know enough about it to have a big discussion), but the taste and nutrition of a lot of veggies in the stores is not in doubt. It would be nice to see something to support local growers who give a damn about quality, taste and nutrition. Farmer’s market subsidies maybe? Incentives for farmers to grow with less chemistry and more natural means? Incentives to grow more than one thing? I don’t know, it would be nice to see something new that had a positive effect.
Naturally, can’t find them now, but I’ve seen some skeptical/science sights that pointed out GMO isn’t nearly as bad as its detractors say. Part of the problem is the people who are against it are extremists who think everyone should be eating dirt and leaves 3 times a day.
Of course, having corps like Monsanto, who can be real bastards to begin with, fighting to keep everything hush hush doesn’t help.
| 65 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:00:59am |
re: #58 Mattand
I had my neighbor threaten us once, because (per his “request”) that we ask his wife to pick up after their dogs when they went #2 in our yard.
You’ve got all of my neighbor problems beat handily. Hang in there.
That’s something else I don’t miss about no longer having property and a “border” to defend.
Luckily I did not have a neighboring dog using my yard as a toilet. Just a neighboring teen who tossed his cigarette butts over the hedge into my yard. I tossed them back a few times, and then eventually had a short conversation with his father — which turned out well as such things go.
Both neighbors were also pro-cat, so they didn’t mind my cats patrolling their yard. Understood the value of the rodent control they provided.
| 66 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:01:15am |
re: #64 Mattand
Yeah. the “GMO” thing is a scary label but it’s just one way of modifying the genetics of an organism. We created seedless varieties originally without any GMO beyond what Mendel had available to him.
| 67 |
Targetpractice Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:02:55am |
re: #61 Vicious Babushka
Most of the Derp on Twitter today is moonbats cursing Maggie Thatcher. Stay classy, guys.
Not surprising. There’s every bit as much hate, if not more, for the woman as there was for Reagan.
| 68 |
Mattand Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:03:55am |
re: #66 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
Yeah. the “GMO” thing is a scary label but it’s just one way of modifying the genetics of an organism. We created seedless varieties originally without any GMO beyond what Mendel had available to him.
Seriously. Look at the average supermarket banana. That one of the OG GMO’s, long before Bill Maher was insisting everything in the supermarket was poison.
| 69 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:06:01am |
re: #68 Mattand
Seriously. Look at the average supermarket banana. That one of the OG GMO’s, long before Bill Maher was insisting everything in the supermarket was poison.
Heh. And you could probably walk 90% of the US population past a wild banana tree with fruit on it and they wouldn’t recognize what it was.
| 70 |
Mattand Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:08:30am |
re: #65 Feline Fearless Leader
That’s something else I don’t miss about no longer having property and a “border” to defend.
Luckily I did not have a neighboring dog using my yard as a toilet. Just a neighboring teen who tossed his cigarette butts over the hedge into my yard. I tossed them back a few times, and then eventually had a short conversation with his father — which turned out well as such things go.
Both neighbors were also pro-cat, so they didn’t mind my cats patrolling their yard. Understood the value of the rodent control they provided.
I was bitching about the apartment vs home ownership debate yesterday. Sometimes, I’d be completely fine with a nice apartment. I know financially it makes more sense to own, but I just don’t get the joy out of home ownership that others seem to get.
It didn’t help that after we moved in here, the neighbor’s kid was starting full band practice at 3 AM. So goddamned loud that I could not only tell you what song they were playing, you could hear they needed to tune down to accommodate their vocalist.
Same fucking bullshit I was putting up with in a one BR apartment, only four times more expensive.
| 71 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:10:18am |
That sucks. My condolences to the family. (Though unfortunately also a “WTF?” to the father for letting his children play in/near a construction site excavation.)
| 72 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:13:50am |
re: #70 Mattand
Financially it makes more sense to rent if you’re in a lot of places, actually.
If I bought an apartment (not that I could) in NYC, I’d wind up paying property taxes + probably a condo or building fee that would come close to the amount of rent I currently pay. Sure, the value of it might appreciate over time but it’s not a liquid asset, and if there was another housing meltdown or if NYC started flooding regularly then the price might drop a hell of a lot.
| 73 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:15:49am |
re: #70 Mattand
I was bitching about the apartment vs home ownership debate yesterday. Sometimes, I’d be completely fine with a nice apartment. I know financially it makes more sense to own, but I just don’t get the joy out of home ownership that others seem to get.
It didn’t help that after we moved in here, the neighbor’s kid was starting full band practice at 3 AM. So goddamned loud that I could not only tell you what song they were playing, you could hear they needed to tune down to accommodate their vocalist.
Same fucking bullshit I was putting up with in a one BR apartment, only four times more expensive.
It’s an interesting topic. I moved from a 3-BR house near Pittsburgh to a 2-BR apartment in Philly about six years ago. I summarize it as “different” since essentially it is making a bunch of trade-offs involving finances, life issues, etc.
And a lot of it is case by case depending on where you end up and the community (and especially immediate neighbors) that you are dealing with.
And I had more noise issues when owning the house than I have with the apartment. (Other than the ambient noise levels of living *in* a city.) Folk riding dirt bikes and go-carts up and down the road. Neighbor’s offspring tuning and “testing” a car alarm at 9am on a Sunday morning.
| 74 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:17:11am |
re: #70 Mattand
It didn’t help that after we moved in here, the neighbor’s kid was starting full band practice at 3 AM. So goddamned loud that I could not only tell you what song they were playing, you could hear they needed to tune down to accommodate their vocalist.
Wait, what? Did you call police?
| 75 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:18:41am |
re: #72 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
Financially it makes more sense to rent if you’re in a lot of places, actually.
If I bought an apartment (not that I could) in NYC, I’d wind up paying property taxes + probably a condo or building fee that would come close to the amount of rent I currently pay. Sure, the value of it might appreciate over time but it’s not a liquid asset, and if there was another housing meltdown or if NYC started flooding regularly then the price might drop a hell of a lot.
I think part of it is that owning property is still being sold as part of “making it” in America. Whether or not home ownership is still a good equity investment can be debated — though it’s still used as a major economic indicator as well.
| 76 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:23:07am |
Speaking of neighbors, I must have some new ones on the floor. Was headed out Saturday morning to run errands (about 11am) and noticed a half-full bottle of whiskey sitting in the hallway near the elevators.
Need to keep an eye on the one cat. He already has a Jim Beam habit when he starts eating the beef jerky.
| 77 |
Mattand Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:29:50am |
re: #74 Vicious Babushka
Wait, what? Did you call police?
Yeah, it eventually got worked out. Major pain in the ass, though:
- I felt like the hypocritical grumpy old man, particularly every time I picked up my guitar. Of course, I wasn’t blasting throughout the whole neighborhood.
- Dealing with the police was a bit of a crapshoot. Either really genuine in trying to help me, or making it crystal clear that I was a loser wasting their time.
Finally pulled the dad aside and said, “Look, I think it’s great that Junior is a musician and hope he can make it work. However, the 3AM jam sessions.
Have.
To.
Stop.
NOW.”
In retrospect, I should have done that first. But at the point, nearly every place I lived had me battling with neighbors over things like parties all night long or beating their spouses. My attitude was “Fuck it. Let the police deal with it.”
EDIT: Of course, all this pales in comparison to Mom Anon’s problems.
| 78 |
Mattand Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:31:33am |
re: #75 Feline Fearless Leader
I think part of it is that owning property is still being sold as part of “making it” in America. Whether or not home ownership is still a good equity investment can be debated — though it’s still used as a major economic indicator as well.
Yeah, I always half-jokingly preface these conversations with a variant of “Everyone says that a ‘real’ American owns a home.”
| 79 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:35:33am |
re: #78 Mattand
Yeah, I always half-jokingly preface these conversations with a variant of “Everyone says that a ‘real’ American owns a home.”
For a lot of people it turns out being sucked into a hate-hate relationship that they then have trouble escaping.
Selling a house and moving is an expensive and extensive project once you have a family and any accumulation of personal property, so you don’t do it lightly and it’s a pressure to just put up with the current situation.
| 80 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:41:45am |
The house we lost to foreclosure was costing us $1400 a month and needed massive amounts of work - the bathroom was crap and the basement was too wet to be usable, the bubba before us fubar’d the electrical and plumbing systems too.
Now we rent a much nicer home for $700 a month that includes lawn care & snow removal. We happily signed the next year’s lease while paying rent the other day. Yeah, I don’t expect to ever buy a house again.
| 81 |
A Mom Anon Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:42:14am |
Ok, I have to get moving and get outside. Pollen count here is over 2000 this morning, YAY! Usually we’re done with the super high pollen counts by now, for some stupid reason everything is blooming late, I guess the up and down temps and cold snaps have something to do with it. Have a fun day Lizards.
| 82 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:45:20am |
re: #51 Vicious Babushka
Last Thursday I had to bake challah for the first time after Pesach and I grabbed the first bag of flour from inside the utility pantry (where we jammed all our “chametz” stuff and most of it was still in there.) Well, I made the dough before I realized that I grabbed the wrong bag of flour, it was “bleached, enriched” instead of the “unbleached, high-gluten, bread flour” that I normally use.
Still, home-baked challah still beats anything that you can buy at the bakeries.
teehee, I tend to buy bread by the weight of the loaf. I like something I actually have to chew.
| 83 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:50:41am |
re: #64 Mattand
Naturally, can’t find them now, but I’ve seen some skeptical/science sights that pointed out GMO isn’t nearly as bad as its detractors say. Part of the problem is the people who are against it are extremists who think everyone should be eating dirt and leaves 3 times a day.
Of course, having corps like Monsanto, who can be real bastards to begin with, fighting to keep everything hush hush doesn’t help.
When a bee goes from one farm field to another and deposits pollen, he is, technically, genetically modifying the product. When scientists do it, it becomes a political issue.
That is simplifying it a bit, I know. I think people get a big “scared” of big words and acronyms. Makes for good headlines anyway.
| 84 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:55:59am |
re: #80 William Barnett-Lewis
The house we lost to foreclosure was costing us $1400 a month and needed massive amounts of work - the bathroom was crap and the basement was too wet to be usable, the bubba before us fubar’d the electrical and plumbing systems too.
Now we rent a much nicer home for $700 a month that includes lawn care & snow removal. We happily signed the next year’s lease while paying rent the other day. Yeah, I don’t expect to ever buy a house again.
When we rented, it was really nice to call maintenance when the basement flooded. With the condo we own now, it’s really, really nice not to worry about the lawn, snow removal or replacing the roof.
After living thru rehab hell and then having to replace the roof do to ice dams (after we had already replaced it) —I really like the current situation.
IMHO, single-family home buying only makes sense if you need the room. What you pay in interest on a 30 year mortgage will never be made up in tax savings—and recent events have shown us you can’t depend on making it up when you eventually sell.
| 85 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 6:57:36am |
comment on my fb:
WOW.. Margaret Thatcher.. the Iron Lady herself .. has passed away at 87. Hard to believe that tough old broad is gone. Elected to Parliament at only 34… she joins Ronald Reagan in that group of conservatives that isn’t Right enough to be elected dog catcher today.
| 86 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:03:31am |
re: #77 Mattand
Yeah, it eventually got worked out. Major pain in the ass, though:
However, the 3AM jam sessions.
Have.
To.
Stop.
NOW.”
What is this…I don’t understand… Where TF did you live that 3:00AM band practice would be considered acceptable? In my neighborhood the police would be out there in seconds and the household would be ticketed and fined.
| 87 |
efuseakay Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:04:02am |
Silly people who think “conservative”
Means the same thing there as it does here.
| 88 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:07:39am |
Sharepoint WTF. The default Sharepoint theme and style is this utterly crappy “AdventureWorld” turquoise and how the fuck do you change it to something normal?
Microsoft Sharepoint site is no help, they just say “start from scratch with a brand new style sheet and master page.” Yeah but then you lose all the FUNCTIONALITY.
| 89 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:12:25am |
re: #84 FemNaziBitch
When we rented, it was really nice to call maintenance when the basement flooded. With the condo we own now, it’s really, really nice not to worry about the lawn, snow removal or replacing the roof.
After living thru rehab hell and then having to replace the roof do to ice dams (after we had already replaced it) —I really like the current situation.
IMHO, single-family home buying only makes sense if you need the room. What you pay in interest on a 30 year mortgage will never be made up in tax savings—and recent events have shown us you can’t depend on making it up when you eventually sell.
That, and just about any large ticket maintenance item is not going to recover its cost either.
The place I bought in 1990 (roughly) got new windows, a new roof, and a new furnace. Installed central A/C with the last - which was probably the only actual estate value enhancement. All were necessary, improved comfort level and possibly save some utility costs. All of it was no real help when I sold the place - and the house was on the market for about two years after I moved.* And that included a lot of additional post-move costs involving bringing a few things up to fit new building codes, stripping out old carpeting, repainting walls, etc.
* - And properly valuing a house for sale is still a bit of a crap shoot to me. I somehow think most people that sell (and buy?) think that they got the short end of the stick in the deal.
| 90 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:14:30am |
re: #67 Targetpractice
Not surprising. There’s every bit as much hate, if not more, for the woman as there was for Reagan.
Dead, she is worth as much as Chavez or St. Francis or Hitler or Ghandi. RIP.
| 91 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:17:45am |
re: #89 Feline Fearless Leader
That, and just about any large ticket maintenance item is not going to recover its cost either.
The place I bought in 1990 (roughly) got new windows, a new roof, and a new furnace. Installed central A/C with the last - which was probably the only actual estate value enhancement. All were necessary, improved comfort level and possibly save some utility costs. All of it was no real help when I sold the place - and the house was on the market for about two years after I moved.* And that included a lot of additional post-move costs involving bringing a few things up to fit new building codes, stripping out old carpeting, repainting walls, etc.
* - And properly valuing a house for sale is still a bit of a crap shoot to me. I somehow think most people that sell (and buy?) think that they got the short end of the stick in the deal.
A lot has to do with the market and how long you are going to stay in the house. It is a crap shoot in many ways. There was a time when house prices in certain areas were going up consistently. At that point in time, if you planned on staying in the home only a couple of years, you could make money or at least break even (which is not a bad thing—basically get free rent for a couple of years).
If you added up the monthly payments, closing costs, maintence and utilities you wouldn’t pay as a renter, subtracted the tax savings and profit, it was often a good deal.
Worked for us—even with rehab hell. But it was a good market and good location.
| 92 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:20:30am |
Holy shit, I think the game designer for the project I’m working on thinks that massy objects fall faster than light ones.
| 93 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:22:25am |
re: #91 FemNaziBitch
A lot has to do with the market and how long you are going to stay in the house. It is a crap shoot in many ways. There was a time when house prices in certain areas were going up consistently. At that point in time, if you planned on staying in the home only a couple of years, you could make money or at least break even (which is not a bad thing—basically get free rent for a couple of years).
If you added up the monthly payments, closing costs, maintence and utilities you wouldn’t pay as a renter, subtracted the tax savings and profit, it was often a good deal.
Worked for us—even with rehab hell. But it was a good market and good location.
We didn’t buy our house as an investment. We bought it to keep four kids dry. We kept it for 30 years or more, and the fact that it still has value is a bonus. Bacon isn’t an investment either.
| 94 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:24:33am |
re: #93 Decatur Deb
We didn’t buy our house as an investment. We bought it to keep four kids dry. We kept it for 30 years or more, and the fact that it still has value is a bonus. Bacon isn’t an investment either.
Exactly.
Usually, tho people don’t think of homes as a depreciating asset. The hype for decades as been that it is “an investment” every real American should make. Which, IMHO, is bullshit.
It’s even more bullshit to make the world economy dependent on American’s making their monthly mortgage payments.
| 95 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:27:31am |
re: #79 Feline Fearless Leader
For a lot of people it turns out being sucked into a hate-hate relationship that they then have trouble escaping.
Selling a house and moving is an expensive and extensive project once you have a family and any accumulation of personal property, so you don’t do it lightly and it’s a pressure to just put up with the current situation.
It is a major consideration if you are raising a family and want a home in a neighborhood with good schools, but if you are a childless professional, then home ownership is less attractive an option.
| 96 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:27:42am |
re: #94 FemNaziBitch
Exactly.
Usually, tho people don’t think of homes as a depreciating asset. The hype for decades as been that it is “an investment” every real American should make. Which, IMHO, is bullshit.
It’s even more bullshit to make the world economy dependent on American’s making their monthly mortgage payments.
That’s why I build for Habitat—owning a decent 1000 sq ft home pulls families over the line from “upper poor” to “lower middle”. We need a middle.
| 97 |
lawhawk Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:28:08am |
re: #89 Feline Fearless Leader
I’ve replaced doors, garage door, put down a new and improved driveway and landscaping, roof, and am now doing a bath. The landscaping, doors and garage door definitely help with the curb appeal. Roof, water heater, and electrical panel upgrades all go to routine maintenance, and show that you’re doing proper upkeep and make the house more valuable to a prospective buyer since they don’t have to worry about doing those items themselves.
So, it helps you maintain value, and improves resale chances. Doing baths, kitchens or adding amenities add value. Landscaping can add value.
Our plan is to hold on to the house, and we bought so that we wouldn’t have to move should we have kids. Good schools and good location. And the house isn’t so big that it’s a burden either. Lots going for it… but it’s not for everyone either.
| 98 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:29:32am |
We still have an ideal image of the American family homestead, carved out of the pristine wilderness by the sweat of our brows and defended by our constitutionally guaranteed firearms.
We hate to let go of any of that, despite the changed realities.
| 99 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:30:56am |
One of my favorite Margaret Thatcher quotes (and I don’t know if it’s true) is when she first won the election for Prime Miister and walked into the Party’s Club (headquarters). Which was known as a gentlemen’s club. The doorman or someone said, “Ma’am, ladies are not allowed here.” She continued walking and didn’t look back saying “You do now.”
Sounds like her even it’s not accurate.
| 100 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:31:36am |
re: #98 Sol Berdinowitz
We still have an ideal image of the American family homestead, carved out of the pristine wilderness by the sweat of our brows and defended by our constitutionally guaranteed firearms.
We hate to let go of any of that, despite the changed realities.
Reality is more like Hell’s Kitchen in the 1875.
| 101 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:31:57am |
re: #99 FemNaziBitch
I think you mean he said “We don’t allow women in here”, or her response, while punchy, would be ungrammatical.
| 102 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:33:00am |
re: #97 lawhawk
I’ve replaced doors, garage door, put down a new and improved driveway and landscaping, roof, and am now doing a bath. …snip
Suspect you’re using the “I’ve” managerially. When I replaced my 2000 ft roof, I. replaced. my. roof. (OJT construction education is another benefit of Habitat.)
| 103 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:33:57am |
re: #100 FemNaziBitch
Reality is more like Hell’s Kitchen in the 1875.
Exactly. And the few remaining “family homesteads” are basically just links in a major industrial agricultural supply chain.
| 104 |
FemNaziBitch Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:35:05am |
re: #101 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
I think you mean he said “We don’t allow women in here”, or her response, while punchy, would be ungrammatical.
Well, I was paraphrasing from memory. If I could figure out the parameters, I’d google it.
corrected:
“Ladies are not allowed here
“They are now”
| 105 |
kirkspencer Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:37:26am |
re: #98 Sol Berdinowitz
We still have an ideal image of the American family homestead, carved out of the pristine wilderness by the sweat of our brows and defended by our constitutionally guaranteed firearms.
We hate to let go of any of that, despite the changed realities.
When I get gainfully employed and can move out of my kin’s back rooms it will be ugly. Because of the foreclosure the penalties for getting a home loan will be monstrous, yet it’ll still probably be cheaper than renting in most places I might go.
Because I have two cats and three dogs. Probably only two dogs in another year or so, but right now it’s three.
Pet deposits and pet fees plus maximum pet allowances all add up.
| 107 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:40:10am |
re: #105 kirkspencer
When I get gainfully employed and can move out of my kin’s back rooms it will be ugly. Because of the foreclosure the penalties for getting a home loan will be monstrous, yet it’ll still probably be cheaper than renting in most places I might go.
Because I have two cats and three dogs. Probably only two dogs in another year or so, but right now it’s three.
Pet deposits and pet fees plus maximum pet allowances all add up.
If you live in the right geography, put a ratty old trailer on land you buy and keep upgrading. Eventually build what you like.
| 108 |
lawhawk Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:40:20am |
re: #102 Decatur Deb
Suspect you’re using the “I’ve” managerially. When I replaced my 2000 ft roof, I. replaced. my. roof. (OJT construction education is another benefit of Habitat.)
Everything but the landscaping and a few smaller projects (like redoing closets with new shelving systems) was in oversight. I have some skills, but not the time to tackle those projects. Did the landscaping myself though. Good exercise.
| 109 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:43:30am |
re: #108 lawhawk
Everything but the landscaping and a few smaller projects (like redoing closets with new shelving systems) was in oversight. I have some skills, but not the time to tackle those projects. Did the landscaping myself though. Good exercise.
If if suits your personality, accumulating manual skills is very profitable and satisfying. Bureaucratic work, never seeing the real end of effort, made me want to make things I could bang with a hammer. When we’re done building a house, there’s a damn house there.
| 110 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:49:19am |
re: #105 kirkspencer
When I get gainfully employed and can move out of my kin’s back rooms it will be ugly. Because of the foreclosure the penalties for getting a home loan will be monstrous, yet it’ll still probably be cheaper than renting in most places I might go.
Because I have two cats and three dogs. Probably only two dogs in another year or so, but right now it’s three.
Pet deposits and pet fees plus maximum pet allowances all add up.
That’s also a major limiting criteria when looking for places to rent. Lots of places refuse pets - or have strict limits on numbers and weights. My current residence is two cats or one dog less than fifty pounds. My friends who got flooded out by Hurricane Sandy had to find a rental that would also accommodate a ninety pound German Shepherd.
| 111 |
Decatur Deb Mon, Apr 8, 2013 7:56:24am |
re: #110 Feline Fearless Leader
That’s also a major limiting criteria when looking for places to rent. Lots of places refuse pets - or have strict limits on numbers and weights. My current residence is two cats or one dog less than fifty pounds. My friends who got flooded out by Hurricane Sandy had to find a rental that would also accommodate a ninety pound German Shepherd.
Not just pets—we had three kids when I transferred to a base in the North Jersey suburbs. No one wanted to talk about renting (though they didn’t mention the children’s weight).
| 112 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:14:32am |
re: #111 Decatur Deb
Not just pets—we had three kids when I transferred to a base in the North Jersey suburbs. No one wanted to talk about renting (though they didn’t mention the children’s weight).
It’s interesting how pets and children are viewed as both an asset and detriment in regards to properties and communities.
| 113 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:25:00am |
Rest in peace Baroness Thatcher. You had your pluses and minuses, as any other leader does. Good news for you, though, is you were a contemporary of Ronald Reagan, so your memory will be revised until people call for your face to be chiseled onto Mt. Rushmore.
| 114 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:25:49am |
re: #113 darthstar
Rest in peace Baroness Thatcher. You had your pluses and minuses, as any other leader does. Good news for you, though, is you were a contemporary of Ronald Reagan, so your memory will be revised until people call for your face to be chiseled onto Mt. Rushmore.
Does she get to replace Roosevelt or Lincoln?
:p
| 115 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:31:53am |
re: #114 Feline Fearless Leader
Does she get to replace Roosevelt or Lincoln?
:p
I don’t know, but the Reaganization of her career has already begun, including her being instrumental in keeping Reagan from nuking Gorbachev if I caught the initial bullshit right in the car on the way in this morning. Seriously, the media needs to get some sensible writers to put together scripts for our soon to be dead former leaders so the talking heads on TV don’t sound like the idiots they are.
| 116 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:34:22am |
re: #109 Decatur Deb
If if suits your personality, accumulating manual skills is very profitable and satisfying. Bureaucratic work, never seeing the real end of effort, made me want to make things I could bang with a hammer. When we’re done building a house, there’s a damn house there.
Hopefully your results have a better roof than Hackman’s homebuilt place in “Unforgiven”.
;)
Between my father, a fraternity house, and owning a house for twenty plus years I accumulated a varied skill set of that sort. Unfortunately my back is a bit too sensitive to time spent bent over at this point.
I do miss puttering around the yard/garden. And also how the one neighbor thought it was odd when I strung chicken wire 15’ up a bare brick wall. And then the planted morning glories promptly vined up it and provided a nice green cover for an expanse of brick with a southeast exposure. ;)
| 117 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:34:36am |
I won’t be a dick and grave dance on Thatcher’s grave but I just wasn’t a fan. And I’m not even just talking about her domestic policies.
| 118 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:38:06am |
re: #117 HappyWarrior
I won’t be a dick and grave dance on Thatcher’s grave but I just wasn’t a fan. And I’m not even just talking about her domestic policies.
I’m sort of neutral on Thatcher. Have not studied her career in depth, though I have noted that she was poked fun at in 1970 by Monty Python. (One of the politicians they take shots at that I recognize.) So I can’t be an accurate judge of how she should be considered historically.
And I think nations need a spectrum of politicians in order to properly consider and reflect on policy both foreign and domestic. Though I admit I generally have little use for platitude spouting demagogues.
| 119 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:39:14am |
re: #117 HappyWarrior
I won’t be a dick and grave dance on Thatcher’s grave but I just wasn’t a fan. And I’m not even just talking about her domestic policies.
That’s ok, I’ll do it for you… ;)
| 120 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:40:16am |
re: #118 Feline Fearless Leader
She had horrible, horrible policies but probably genuinely thought she was doing good.
| 121 |
Mattand Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:40:16am |
re: #86 Vicious Babushka
What is this…I don’t understand… Where TF did you live that 3:00AM band practice would be considered acceptable? In my neighborhood the police would be out there in seconds and the household would be ticketed and fined.
Well, it wasn’t considered acceptable. I was told that enough police visits would trigger a fine from the township, or I could file a complaint and the police would try to mediate.
There’s only so much the cops can do, other than show up and tell them to knock it the hell off. At some point, you have to take action yourself. Plus, everyone else was just putting up with it.
| 122 |
Mattand Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:40:43am |
re: #120 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
She had horrible, horrible policies but probably genuinely thought she was doing good.
LOL, just like Lex Luthor or Dr. Doom.
| 123 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:41:17am |
re: #118 Feline Fearless Leader
I’m sort of neutral on Thatcher. Have not studied her career in depth, though I have noted that she was poked fun at in 1970 by Monty Python. (One of the politicians they take shots at that I recognize.) So I can’t be an accurate judge of how she should be considered historically.
And I think nations need a spectrum of politicians in order to properly consider and reflect on policy both foreign and domestic. Though I admit I generally have little use for platitude spouting demagogues.
I know. I just have a big problem with her unabashed apologia for Pinochet and support for the Apartheid regime in South Africa. The domestics are something two people can civilly disagree on but those two are biggies for me. It’s why I’m not a big Reagan guy either.
| 124 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:42:30am |
re: #117 HappyWarrior
I won’t be a dick and grave dance on Thatcher’s grave but I just wasn’t a fan. And I’m not even just talking about her domestic policies.
Agreed. It’s not Thatcher I can’t stand (she’s been out of politics for 30 years)…it’s our domestic Reagan worshippers who will try to claim her as one of their lifelong icons. Hell, I didn’t grave dance on Breitbart, and I didn’t even like that fucker.
| 125 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:42:51am |
What frustrates me on the subject of Reagan and Thatcher now I think about it more is how they gave these grand speeches about freedom all the while they supported some very authoritarian regimes. It’s almost like their problem with the USSR and Eastern Bloc wasn’t that they were authoritarian, it was more so that they constrained Capitalism.
| 126 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:43:57am |
re: #124 darthstar
Agreed. It’s not Thatcher I can’t stand (she’s been out of politics for 30 years)…it’s our domestic Reagan worshippers who will try to claim her as one of their lifelong icons. Hell, I didn’t grave dance on Breitbart, and I didn’t even like that fucker.
It’s the attempts to make Reagan into one of the greatest Americans- up there with Abe, MLK, Washington, and others that bothers me. I mean if the Reagan fans were more ready to admit his flaws rather than promote him to secular sainthood……… And I mean real flaws, not giving him a hard time for remembering that he to actually work with Tip O’Neill.
| 127 |
Mattand Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:46:03am |
re: #126 HappyWarrior
It’s the attempts to make Reagan into one of the greatest Americans- up there with Abe, MLK, Washington, and others that bothers me. I mean if the Reagan fans were more ready to admit his flaws rather than promote him to secular sainthood………
I didn’t think the RWNJs would be cool with a serial tax raiser on Mt Rushmore.
| 128 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:46:37am |
There’s some pissing on the grave going on over at the Thatcher thread, the usual suspects. And the bottom comments are rather sparse.
| 129 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:48:41am |
re: #128 Vicious Babushka
Not really a lot of pissing going on. Quoting her accurately on her stupid ideas about poverty isn’t pissing. She really did have absolutely goddamn stupid-ass ideas about poverty in the modern world.
David Mitchell, on the other hand, is probably going to be throwing a party.
| 130 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:48:55am |
re: #127 Mattand
I didn’t think the RWNJs would be cool with a serial tax raiser on Mt Rushmore.
Eh they give him a pass for Iran-Contra. Sheesh can you imagine if Iran-Contra happened in this day and age with this president? The Obama is a secret Muslim brigade would have a collective gasm.
| 131 |
compound_Idaho Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:54:37am |
Just hit “PRINT” for my 2012 tax returns. Had to pause the print job to go buy a new ink cartridge. 51 pages of required forms for my state and federal returns. I do my best to get them right, but I don’t ever ever want to go though an audit. Time to start over with the tax code.
| 132 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 8:54:43am |
re: #128 Vicious Babushka
There’s some pissing on the grave going on over at the Thatcher thread, the usual suspects. And the bottom comments are rather sparse.
I wouldn’t call that grave pissing. What I see is pointing out that Margaret Thatcher had backwards ideas about poverty(quoting her directly) and that she supported the Apartheid regime in South Africa, the Pinochet dictatorship in Chile, and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. I think that’s fair to point out since it’s a part of her legacy.
| 134 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:16:18am |
re: #132 HappyWarrior
I wouldn’t call that grave pissing. What I see is pointing out that Margaret Thatcher had backwards ideas about poverty(quoting her directly) and that she supported the Apartheid regime in South Africa, the Pinochet dictatorship in Chile, and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. I think that’s fair to point out since it’s a part of her legacy.
Not to mention her privatization schemes, which was like starting a Monopoly game in which most players start with $50 while a select group of others start with $10,000 and already own Free Parking.
| 135 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:19:55am |
re: #134 Sol Berdinowitz
Not to mention her privatization schemes, which was like starting a monopoly game in which some players start with $50 while others start with $10,000 and already own Free Parking.
Well I was talking about specifically on said thread but yeah.
| 136 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:26:48am |
re: #135 HappyWarrior
Well I was talking about specifically on said thread but yeah.
She’s dead, Jim.
| 137 |
Lidane Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:32:59am |
Margaret Thatcher, reminding conservatives they secretly love @sullydish— Ben Smith (@BuzzFeedBen) April 8, 2013
| 138 |
Lidane Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:34:36am |
Now this is just insulting to Thatcher:
Margaret Thatcher was the original Mama Grizzly.— toddstarnes (@toddstarnes) April 8, 2013
| 139 |
NJDhockeyfan Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:36:57am |
Asshole.
No respect from George Galloway as he tweets on Thatcher death
BRADFORD MP George Galloway provoked angry reactions on Twitter today after apparently expressing his satisfaction at the death of Baroness Thatcher.
The Respect MP for Bradford West wrote “Tramp the dirt down” on his feed - the name of a song by Elvis Costello in which he attacks the former Conservative prime minister.
Mr Galloway’s tweet provoked anger on Twitter.
The Sun’s political editor, Tom Newton Dunn, wrote: “I suppose this was inevitable from him.”
And the Daily Mail’s deputy political editor, Tim Shipman, replied: “What a stunningly unpleasant tweet.”
Mr Galloway’s reference comes from a song by Costello, in which he sings: “When England was the whore of the world / Margaret was her madam.
It continues: “’Cos when they finally put you in the ground / They’ll stand there laughing and tramp the dirt down.”
| 140 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:38:09am |
I’m sure a lot of personally offensive things will be said about Thatcher, which is dumb ad hominem bullshit and ungracious as fuck. As well as being a political leader, she was a person, a friend, wife, all the rest of that, and insulting her personally is silly.
But her policies affected millions, many of them very negatively, and to say that people can’t criticize her policies, many of which are still causing harm to this day, is foolish. She was a world leader. World leaders get judged. That’s part of the job description. As long as the judgment is of what she did as a leader, it’s not in the least bit unfitting.
| 141 |
Lidane Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:43:30am |
re: #140 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
But her policies affected millions, many of them very negatively, and to say that people can’t criticize her policies, many of which are still causing harm to this day, is foolish.
EXACTLY.
Her policies were a disaster and they’re still affecting England today. It really is that simple. She also supported Pinochet, the Khmer Rouge and apartheid in South Africa. She rightly deserves to be called out on all those things.
Insulting her personally is out of line, but insulting her policies is fine.
| 142 |
Vicious Babushka Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:44:28am |
re: #140 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
I’m sure a lot of personally offensive things will be said about Thatcher, which is dumb ad hominem bullshit and ungracious as fuck. As well as being a political leader, she was a person, a friend, wife, all the rest of that, and insulting her personally is silly.
But her policies affected millions, many of them very negatively, and to say that people can’t criticize her policies, many of which are still causing harm to this day, is foolish. She was a world leader. World leader’s get judged. That’s part of the job description. As long as the judgment is of what she did as a leader, it’s not in the least bit unfitting.
Well, that quote of hers about poverty, that was just… that totally sucked. Also the fact that she is seen at the UK’s version of Ronnie means she will be deified by the wingnuts alongside Ronnie.
| 143 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:46:53am |
| 144 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:47:12am |
The thing is. Legacies are what we build. To me, I can’t think of Margaret Thatcher without thinking of the contradictory rhetoric criticizing the USSR and Eastern Bloc for totalitarianism all the while supporting other totalitarian regimes around the world. The support for the Khmer Rouge is the most eye-boggling for me considering she made her name as a huge anti-communist. I wish her children and grandchildren and friends my sincere condolences but I do think the UK and world would have been better off if she had never been elected. I felt the same way about Reagan.
| 145 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:47:25am |
| 146 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:48:21am |
re: #138 Lidane
Now this is just insulting to Thatcher:
Yeah that’s stupid. Thatcher was at least an intelligent woman and not some populist demagogue like Palin is.
| 147 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:50:09am |
re: #146 HappyWarrior
Yeah that’s stupid. Thatcher was at least an intelligent woman and not some populist demagogue like Palin is.
And Thatcher never quit. I’ll give her that much.
| 148 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:52:14am |
re: #147 darthstar
And Thatcher never quit. I’ll give her that much.
She was not without some admirable traits and was not just a self-promoting publicity hound with no other standards than increasing her media profile.
| 149 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 9:53:29am |
re: #148 Sol Berdinowitz
She was not without some admirable traits and was not just a self-promoting publicity hound with no other standards than increasing her media profile.
I think Thatcher was very sincere. I think Santorum is sincere too. I didn’t think Romney was sincere.
| 150 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:00:38am |
re: #147 darthstar
And Thatcher never quit. I’ll give her that much.
That’s still the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen in politics. You see governors quit to focus full time on running for president but to become basically a Fox News shock jock?
| 151 |
Sol Berdinowitz Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:03:23am |
re: #149 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
I think Thatcher was very sincere. I think Santorum is sincere too. I didn’t think Romney was sincere.
George Bush came across as sincere, Kerry and Gore did not. That is why he won. That counts to a lot of voters: they want to vote for a known quantity, someone who has a clearly defined set of principles and will follow them consistently. To many voters, that is often more important than their policies.
| 152 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:05:37am |
re: #149 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut
I think Thatcher was very sincere. I think Santorum is sincere too. I didn’t think Romney was sincere.
Mitt Romney is too sincere…about promoting Mitt Romney. I agree that Santorum is sincere(ly fucked in the head).
| 153 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:06:13am |
re: #150 HappyWarrior
That’s still the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen in politics. You see governors quit to focus full time on running for president but to become basically a Fox News shock jock?
She also wanted to have the ability to share in her kids’ reality-TV careers.
| 154 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:07:14am |
re: #147 darthstar
And Thatcher never quit. I’ll give her that much.
Thatcher also had a much longer and deeper political career before becoming PM. It’s not like she was some sort of first election backbencher suddenly being catapulted into the job.
| 155 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:07:57am |
re: #153 darthstar
She also wanted to have the ability to share in her kids’ reality-TV careers.
Again weirdest thing I ever saw. I am glad that the only time she’ll see the White House is as a tourist.
| 156 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:07:57am |
re: #154 Feline Fearless Leader
Thatcher also had a much longer and deeper political career before becoming PM. It’s not like she was some sort of first election backbencher suddenly being catapulted into the job.
And her breasts were real. :)
| 157 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:09:38am |
Honestly, I think part of my criticism of Thatcher/Reagan and others for supporting the dictatorships is rooted in sincere disappointment. How can someone who knows the USSR was bad news not see the evil that Pinochet and the Apartheid regime were. But then again as I said, the cynic in me sees that the only problem that right wingers like Thatcher and Reagan had with the USSR and Eastern Bloc was their economic policies more so than their authoritarian policies. And I should clarify that I have a problem with command economies too but what made the USSR the “evil empire” as Reagan called it was the system of oppression where criticism of the regime could mean permanent exile or sometimes even death.
| 158 |
blueraven Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:11:07am |
re: #131 compound_Idaho
Just hit “PRINT” for my 2012 tax returns. Had to pause the print job to go buy a new ink cartridge. 51 pages of required forms for my state and federal returns. I do my best to get them right, but I don’t ever ever want to go though an audit. Time to start over with the tax code.
The turbo tax people feel differently. They have a powerful lobby, along with other tax preparation related firms, to keep it complicated.
| 159 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:12:28am |
re: #157 HappyWarrior
But then again as I said, the cynic in me sees that the only problem that right wingers like Thatcher and Reagan had with the USSR and Eastern Bloc was their economic policies more so than their authoritarian policies.
If there was a shitload of money to be made in Sierra Leone or the Congo or Liberia or Burma/Myannmar, or even North Korea, there would be a concerted effort by the government to open those ports of profit to US business.
| 160 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:12:48am |
re: #157 HappyWarrior
Honestly, I think part of my criticism of Thatcher/Reagan and others for supporting the dictatorships is rooted in sincere disappointment. How can someone who knows the USSR was bad news not see the evil that Pinochet and the Apartheid regime were. But then again as I said, the cynic in me sees that the only problem that right wingers like Thatcher and Reagan had with the USSR and Eastern Bloc was their economic policies more so than their authoritarian policies.
The highest priority well above anything else was fighting communism/Russia. Which led to lots of looking the other way and hypocrisy regarding supported regimes, supported revolutions, etc. You see some of the same behaviors regarding Afghanistan — arms were provided to the resistance fighters without paying too much consideration of what was going to happen once the Russians were driven out.
| 161 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:15:05am |
re: #160 Feline Fearless Leader
The highest priority well above anything else was fighting communism/Russia. Which led to lots of looking the other way and hypocrisy regarding supported regimes, supported revolutions, etc. You see some of the same behaviors regarding Afghanistan — arms were provided to the resistance fighters without paying too much consideration of what was going to happen once the Russians were driven out.
Yeah true that and I realize I am partially guilty of hindsight bias since I know what supporting the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan led to as your example said but man it just bugs me. A lot of stuff about our (Western) policies during the Cold War just gnaws at me.
| 162 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:15:42am |
The messages telling me that I’m on hold are more frequent than the hold music, which I’m grateful for because the hold music goddamn blows.
| 163 |
HappyWarrior Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:16:00am |
re: #159 darthstar
If there was a shitload of money to be made in Sierra Leone or the Congo or Liberia or Burma/Myannmar, or even North Korea, there would be a concerted effort by the government to open those ports of profit to US business.
And that’s what makes me a cynic.
| 164 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:17:42am |
re: #159 darthstar
If there was a shitload of money to be made in Sierra Leone or the Congo or Liberia or Burma/Myannmar, or even North Korea, there would be a concerted effort by the government to open those ports of profit to US business.
There is a ton of money to be made there. Just not easy money.
| 165 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:20:13am |
re: #159 darthstar
If there was a shitload of money to be made in Sierra Leone or the Congo or Liberia or Burma/Myannmar, or even North Korea, there would be a concerted effort by the government to open those ports of profit to US business.
That’s the source for the comment made somewhere last week that if North Korea had oil the regime change there would have been forced long ago.
And it sort of ties in with the infamous “Axis of Evil” comment. NK, Syria, and Iraq get mentioned, but the US ends up only intervening on one. It just so happens to be the one that is richest in resources, and also the one that the US leadership thinks can be taken out with a minimal expenditure of military and political capital.
| 166 |
Feline Fearless Leader Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:21:47am |
re: #161 HappyWarrior
Yeah true that and I realize I am partially guilty of hindsight bias since I know what supporting the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan led to as your example said but man it just bugs me. A lot of stuff about our (Western) policies during the Cold War just gnaws at me.
Not much different than how western policies tended to run during the 19th and pre-WW2 20th centuries when you get down to it.
| 167 |
darthstar Mon, Apr 8, 2013 10:22:34am |
“Spreading freedom” is just another way of saying “raping and pillaging”…at least the Vikings were honest about their goals.
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