Climate Scientist Prevails in First Round of Defamation Suit Against Right Wing Bloggers

Who knew that climate change deniers had a reckless disregard for the truth?
Environment • Views: 19,096

Climate scientist Michael Mann’s defamation lawsuit against the National Review and the Competitive Enterprise Institute will proceed:

The judge issued two decisions on July 19 allowing Mann’s suits to go forward. The plaintiffs had each filed a motion to dismiss, arguing that the First Amendment protects their right to say that sort of stuff online. But the judge didn’t agree. Here’s a key part of the decision on the CEI suit (via Climate Science Watch) in which the judge asserts that the blogger was not just stating opinions, but that he was making factual claims about Mann’s work that could be proven false:

Defendants argue that the accusation that Plaintiff’s work is fraudulent may not necessarily be taken as based in fact because the writers for the publication are tasked with and posed to view work critically and interpose (brutally) honest commentary. In this case, however, the evidence before the Court, at this stage, demonstrates something more and different than honest or even brutally honest commentary.

The judge continued:

Plaintiff has been investigated several times and his work has been found to be accurate. In fact, some of these investigations have been due to the accusations made by the CEI Defendants. It follows that if anyone should be aware of the accuracy (or findings that the work of Plaintiff is sound), it would be the CEI Defendants. Thus, it is fair to say that the CEI Defendants continue to criticize Plaintiff due to a reckless disregard for truth. Criticism of Plaintiff’s work may be fair and he and his work may be put to the test. Where, however the CEI Defendants consistently claim that Plaintiff’s work is inaccurate (despite being proven as accurate) then there is a strong probability that the CEI Defendants disregarded the falsity of their statements and did so with reckless disregard.

More: Climate Scientist Prevails in First Round of Defamation Suit Against Conservative Bloggers

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108 comments
1 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:36:35pm
…there is a strong probability that the CEI Defendants disregarded the falsity of their statements and did so with reckless disregard.

I’d say the probability approaches 1.

2 Carlos Diggler  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:41:49pm

Nice post. I was just reading Rich Lowry’s threat this AM:

If Mann sues us, the materials we will need to mount a full defense will be extremely wide-ranging. So if he files a complaint, we will be doing more than fighting a nuisance lawsuit; we will be embarking on a journalistic project of great interest to us and our readers.

And this is where you come in. If Mann goes through with it, we’re probably going to call on you to help fund our legal fight and our investigation of Mann through discovery. If it gets that far, we may eventually even want to hire a dedicated reporter to comb through the materials and regularly post stories on Mann.

My advice to poor Michael is to go away and bother someone else. If he doesn’t have the good sense to do that, we look forward to teaching him a thing or two about the law and about how free debate works in a free country.

He’s going to go to great trouble and expense to embark on a losing cause that will expose more of his methods and maneuverings to the world. In short, he risks making an ass of himself. But that hasn’t stopped him before.

Almost Dim Hoffian in its dufussery. If there’s a defamation case in process doing this kind of journalistic project of great interest would be shut down by a judge if not cause worse problems for NRO in the case.

That’s a couple of gigatons of shadenfruede right there.

3 GunstarGreen  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:51:29pm

re: #2 BigPapa

Nice post. I was just reading Rich Lowry’s threat this AM:

Almost Dim Hoffian in its dufussery. If there’s a defamation case in process doing this kind of journalistic project of great interest would be shut down by a judge if not cause worse problems for NRO in the case.

That’s a couple of gigatons of shadenfruede right there.

The judge has already stated that they’re throwing out a bunch of bullshit, what makes them think they’ll succeed if they push it further?

More importantly, how are their readers going to react when they have an official judicial ruling that they’re full of shit?

4 Carlos Dangler  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:52:06pm

re: #2 BigPapa

Nice post. I was just reading Rich Lowry’s threat this AM:

Almost Dim Hoffian in its dufussery. If there’s a defamation case in process doing this kind of journalistic project of great interest would be shut down by a judge if not cause worse problems for NRO in the case.

That’s a couple of gigatons of shadenfruede right there.

Sounds to me like Lowry is advocating SLAPP tactics here.

5 jaunte  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:52:10pm
The NRO post called his research “fraudulent,” and the CEI post accused him of “scientific misconduct.” NRO also twice quoted another blogger who referred to Mann as “the Jerry Sandusky of climate science,” comparing him to the Pennsylvania State University football coach convicted of child molestation last year.

“…it is fair to say that the CEI Defendants continue to criticize Plaintiff due to a reckless disregard for truth.”

6 OhNoZombies!  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:54:05pm

re: #3 GunstarGreen

The judge has already stated that they’re throwing out a bunch of bullshit, what makes them think they’ll succeed if they push it further?

More importantly, how are their readers going to react when they have an official judicial ruling that they’re full of shit?

I’m thinking something like this:
“Derp…judicial activism…derpity-derp.”

7 Obama's Twitter Legions  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:56:54pm

Even if this weren’t about one of the most important subjects on earth at this time (climate change) and the attempts to undermine science with lies, I’d still be rooting whole heartedly for anyone suing the National Review.

8 Internet Tough Guy  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:57:18pm

Rich Lowry vows to provide Michael Mann with evidence for his lawsuit.

Please proceed, Mr. Lowry.

9 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:57:20pm

re: #2 BigPapa

Rich Lowry doesn’t seem to grasp that the vast weight of scientific evidence, which can be documented and proven in court, is against him and his idiotic readers. It looks like we have a judge who understands this, and isn’t going to let them get away with their standard rhetorical BS.

Lowry’s worst nightmare.

10 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:57:49pm

This is where the Right’s Authoritarianism combines with its Epistemic Closure to leave Righties unprepared for an uncooperative reality.

Because they’re authoritarians, their approach to scientific dissent is to attack leading scientists personally in the belief that this will discredit the science. For example, the story of Darwin’s deathbed recantation, as if this would undo 160+ years of scientific work by tens of thousands of scientists, forming the basis of modern Biology.

Here, they attack Mann as the ‘Father of the Hockeystick’, as if discrediting him would undo all the threads of data from numerous sources all pointing to AGW, simply because the ‘hockeystick’ is the most widely known graphic representation.

Having embarked on this fallacious crusade, and knowing that Somebody Once Told Them that Mann’s hockeystick was debunked, and that Mann is dishonest, they assume it must be true, and easily proven. But he really has been investigated repeatedly, and he really has been proven correct, and the ‘hockeystick’ really has been found repeatedly with proxies completely unrelated to any Mann uses in 1999.

11 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:58:10pm

re: #9 Charles Johnson

Rich Lowry doesn’t seem to grasp that the vast weight of scientific evidence, which can be documented and proven in court, is against him and his idiotic readers. It looks like we have a judge who understands this, and isn’t going to let them get away with their standard rhetorical BS.

Lowry’s worst nightmare.

Sort of reminds me of the whole Prop 8 business, where on one side you had advocates against who could cite scientific fact and case law, while the other amounted to “Gays are icky!”

12 elizajane  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 5:58:15pm

OK, so here is the top comment to that Rich Lowry article at NRO:

The global warming conspiracy needs to be put in perspective to be properly understood. This far-left attack by government-paid drones started in the 1970′s with the global cooling scam: we should disarm our nuclear bombers and fill them with soot to be spread over the poles and so prevent those new glaciers from descending south and crushing the New York skyscrapers to dust. When that did not work the same fakers invented the global warming hoax in the 1990′s; we should nationalize all industries and organize a UN-sponsored world socialist government based on “social justice” with the fakers in charge. What with 12 years of substantial cooling the fakers switched to the climate change flimflam in the 2000′s; so whatever happens we should…see above under the global warming hoax. And now we are faced with the cap & trade power grab - but the aim is the same as above. Our socialists, Marxists, communists, Hollywood stars, university professors in social and political “sciences”, and environmentalists are all clamoring for action while spurring President Obama (“Tomorrow the oceans will stop rising and the planet will start healing”) and his 35 czars/commissars to undertake immediate measures to save the planet - with the same aims as described above.
It is evident from the above quote that our President believes himself to be either Jesus come back to Earth, or at least the 12th Imam so ardently desired by that jihadist terrorist Ahmadinejad. …see above under the global warming hoax. And now we are faced with the cap & trade power grab - but the aim is the same as above. Our socialists, Marxists, communists, Hollywood stars, university professors in social and political “sciences”, and environmentalists (i.e., eco-Nazis) are all clamoring for action while spurring President Obama (“Tomorrow the oceans will stop rising and the planet will start healing”) and his 35 czars/commissars to undertake immediate measures to save the planet - with the same aims as described above. Like to the Pinocchio in the fable, Obama’s nose grows longer with every lie he pronounces, while jumping up the steps to his teleprompter like a marionette.

The author signs himself Marc Jeric and assures us that he has a PhD in engineering from UCLA. I assume that he can build bridges or computers really well, but he is clearly not a climate scientist. What he is, however, is a leading member of Patriot Action Network.

patriotaction.net

To this has the once mighty (or at least, debate-worthy) National Review fallen.

13 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:00:23pm

re: #12 elizajane

OK, so here is the top comment to that Rich Lowry article at NRO:

The author signs himself Marc Jeric and assures us that he has a PhD in engineering from UCLA. I assume that he can build bridges or computers really well, but he is clearly not a climate scientist. What he is, however, is a leading member of Patriot Action Network.

patriotaction.net

To this has the once mighty (or at least, debate-worthy) National Review fallen.

You notice it’s the people with degrees that have absolutely no relevance in the debate over climate change who always engage in appeals to authority when declaring that it’s all a “hoax.”

14 darthstar  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:02:16pm
15 calochortus  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:02:44pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

You notice it’s the people with degrees that have absolutely no relevance in the debate over climate change who always engage in appeals to authority when declaring that it’s all a “hoax.”

“Scientists say”

16 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:03:58pm

I have a doctorate too. But not in climatology. It’s in the law (a Juris Doctor). And Lowry’s comments and hope to get more evidence for his side will end up leading to bad things - for Lowry. In fact, that kind of nonsense may well end up leading to sanctions and paying Mann’s attorney costs and fees.

But go ahead Rich, push your climate change denialism in open court where the facts and evidence is totally against you. If you’re hoping the court will find against Mann, you’re going to be in for a rude awakening.

17 jaunte  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:04:33pm

re: #15 calochortus

“Scientists say”

Image: 93xOnZz.jpg

18 Carlos Dangler  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:06:40pm

re: #17 jaunte

Image: 93xOnZz.jpg

*chortle*

19 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:06:48pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

You notice it’s the people with degrees that have absolutely no relevance in the debate over climate change who always engage in appeals to authority when declaring that it’s all a “hoax.”

Most recent prominent one being a Physicist from Berkeley who said he was ‘concerned’ that the climate scientists weren’t processing their data properly, so he couldn’t accept AGW till he’d done his own ground-up audit of the data and processing. He became the darling of the Denialists.

Guess what? He found that the climate scientists at NASA and NOAA and Hadley were all correct.

Guess what, part 2? He became anathema to the Denialists.

20 Belafon  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:07:17pm

re: #12 elizajane

Someone should ask him if we should take his views on heart disease seriously as well since he’s a PhD.

21 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:09:59pm

re: #20 Belafon

Someone should ask him if we should take his views on heart disease seriously as well since he’s a PhD.

Whenever somebody talks about how something must be true because some PhD says so, I’m always reminded of Westly’s response to Inigo when Inigo offers his word as a Spaniard: “No good! I’ve known too many Spaniards.”

In this case, “No good! I’ve known too many PhDs.”

22 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:12:30pm

re: #16 lawhawk

I have a doctorate too. But not in climatology. It’s in the law (a Juris Doctor). And Lowry’s comments and hope to get more evidence for his side will end up leading to bad things - for Lowry. In fact, that kind of nonsense may well end up leading to sanctions and paying Mann’s attorney costs and fees.

But go ahead Rich, push your climate change denialism in open court where the facts and evidence is totally against you. If you’re hoping the court will find against Mann, you’re going to be in for a rude awakening.

I’m not sure they really expect to win the case. They seem to simply be salivating at the opportunity presenting by the discovery process to air any of Mann’s dirty laundry in the court of public opinion.

23 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:12:30pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

You notice it’s the people with degrees that have absolutely no relevance in the debate over climate change who always engage in appeals to authority when declaring that it’s all a “hoax.”

My other thought on this is that there’s something wrong with our engineering schools, since it seems like so many denialists are engineers.

24 efuseakay  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:13:11pm

re: #3 GunstarGreen

The judge has already stated that they’re throwing out a bunch of bullshit, what makes them think they’ll succeed if they push it further?

More importantly, how are their readers going to react when they have an official judicial ruling that they’re full of shit?

COMMIE JUDGE!!!!!!

25 Carlos Dangler  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:14:12pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

You notice it’s the people with degrees that have absolutely no relevance in the debate over climate change who always engage in appeals to authority when declaring that it’s all a “hoax.”

Like Harrison Schmitt: Apollo 17 astronaut, geologist, college professor, former Senator, and climate change denier.

26 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:14:17pm

re: #22 Targetpractice

I’m not sure they really expect to win the case. They seem to simply be salivating at the opportunity presenting by the discovery process to air any of Mann’s dirty laundry in the court of public opinion.

AFAIK, discovery cuts both ways.

27 calochortus  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:14:21pm

re: #23 GeneJockey

My other thought on this is that there’s something wrong with our engineering schools, since it seems like so many denialists are engineers.

I suspect engineers think they are scientists. You can certainly be a scientist and an engineer, but the two are in no way synonymous.

28 GunstarGreen  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:14:56pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

You notice it’s the people with degrees that have absolutely no relevance in the debate over climate change who always engage in appeals to authority when declaring that it’s all a “hoax.”

To the American Right, the Appeal to Authority does not have to be related to the field in question — any authority will do. This is, for example, why they had Ted Stevens in a position to utter his infamous “Series of Tubes” speech — he had not one fucking clue about the thing he was put in charge of regulating, but any authority is valid authority if it agrees with the views of the Right.

As has been demonstrated time and time again, they’re too stupid to think for themselves, so their entire ideology is predicated around having some authority figures to do all the thinking for them.

29 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:15:30pm

re: #26 GeneJockey

AFAIK, discovery cuts both ways.

True, but in their minds, they think this is their opportunity to dig through Mann’s trash until they find something that was totally destroy his reputation. By contrast, they don’t seem to have much of a reputation worth destroying anymore.

30 Obama's Twitter Legions  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:15:57pm
31 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:16:07pm

re: #27 calochortus

I suspect engineers think they are scientists. You can certainly be a scientist and an engineer, but the two are in no way synonymous.

We have a winner! Not true of ALL engineers, by any means. But a lot of them.

32 OhNoZombies!  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:23:29pm

re: #28 GunstarGreen

To the American Right, the Appeal to Authority does not have to be related to the field in question — any authority will do. This is, for example, why they had Ted Stevens in a position to utter his infamous “Series of Tubes” speech — he had not one fucking clue about the thing he was put in charge of regulating, but any authority is valid authority if it agrees with the views of the Right.

As has been demonstrated time and time again, they’re too stupid to think for themselves, so their entire ideology is predicated around having some authority figures to do all the thinking for them.

IMO, it seems to start when parents discourage their children from asking questions at church.

33 freetoken  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:26:29pm

re: #12 elizajane

To this has the once mighty (or at least, debate-worthy) National Review fallen.

I wouldn’t even go that far. WFB’s mastery of the English language still covered a great deal of good ol’ boy racism, and he was also anti-science in the issue of his day, e.g., evolution.

WFB stiff-armed the looniest of right-wing conspiracy nuts, but he was as entrenched in atavism as the next “conservative”. His rare forays out of that box need to be seen in light of the totality of his arguing against much change.

34 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:28:01pm

re: #32 OhNoZombies!

IMO, it seems to start when parents discourage their children from asking questions at church.

If you question your parents, Bryan Fischer comes around to banish the demons from you.

35 GunstarGreen  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:28:55pm

re: #32 OhNoZombies!

IMO, it seems to start when parents discourage their children from asking questions at church.

Precisely. They are raised, from birth, to never dare to question authority figures. Questioning authority earns you eternal torture in hell. Such religions are the root cause of a lot of society’s problems, as they are founded on blind obedience to a set of overlords that are unquestionable and beholden to no one, the conduit through which their skyparents of choice ‘speak’. They breed citizens that are incapable of thinking for themselves, and that is very dangerous to organized society.

36 freetoken  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:28:55pm

re: #2 BigPapa

It’s the “bluster defense”.

37 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:29:42pm

DERP

38 calochortus  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:31:59pm

re: #35 GunstarGreen

Precisely. They are raised, from birth, to never dare to question authority figures. Questioning authority earns you eternal torture in hell. Such religions are the root cause of a lot of society’s problems, as they are founded on blind obedience to a set of overlords that are unquestionable and beholden to no one, the conduit through which their skyparents of choice ‘speak’. They breed citizens that are incapable of thinking for themselves, and that is very dangerous to organized society.

I think they’ve gotten over the fear of questioning authority. Something about Obama’s election (and reelection) seems to have helped with that.

39 freetoken  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:33:47pm

re: #38 calochortus

White Male Authority is still to be feared.

40 freetoken  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:35:20pm

This generalized anti-climatology mindset that is now incorporated (almost) into the definition of “American Conservative” seems familiar…. it’s the same thing that happened to biology and evolution.

41 calochortus  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:37:12pm

re: #39 freetoken

White Male Authority is still to be feared.

And trust me, there are many White Male Authorities that scare the bejeebers out of me.

42 OhNoZombies!  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:38:44pm

re: #34 The Ghost of a Flea

In that case, I will be keeping my big mouth shut !!!
O_o

43 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:39:41pm

DERP

44 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:39:53pm

re: #38 calochortus

I think they’ve gotten over the fear of questioning authority. Something about Obama’s election (and reelection) seems to have helped with that.

I’m not sure it’s just about “obeying authority” since they’re aggressively anti-scientific when scientific facts contradict what they want to hear, and anti-authority if they don’t like what legitimate authorities—political figures, church figures, et cetera— have to say.

Really, they want a world where only their opinions matter…not facts, not science, not majority vote. They’re the sole authority.

45 OhNoZombies!  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:39:58pm

re: #38 calochortus

I think they’ve gotten over the fear of questioning authority. Something about Obama’s election (and reelection) seems to have helped with that.

He’s not a real authority…

46 efuseakay  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:40:32pm

re: #22 Targetpractice

I’m not sure they really expect to win the case. They seem to simply be salivating at the opportunity presenting by the discovery process to air any of Mann’s dirty laundry in the court of public opinion.

Mann to the denialist thugs: Air all my dirty laundry you want. I actually have facts that matter on my side. Facts that will effect all of us, whether you choose to believe them or not.

47 GunstarGreen  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:41:09pm

re: #43 Vicious Babushka

DERP

[Embedded content]

Yeah man, those part-time minimum wage jobs sure will help our vets. Ayup.

48 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:42:27pm

re: #43 Vicious Babushka

DERP

[Embedded content]

Wal-Mart offers returning vets who spent years fighting on foreign battlefields the opportunity to work as a greeter for minimum wage. Their generosity truly is astounding.

////

49 EPR-radar  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:43:36pm

re: #33 freetoken

I wouldn’t even go that far. WFB’s mastery of the English language still covered a great deal of good ol’ boy racism, and he was also anti-science in the issue of his day, e.g., evolution.

WFB stiff-armed the looniest of right-wing conspiracy nuts, but he was as entrenched in atavism as the next “conservative”. His rare forays out of that box need to be seen in light of the totality of his arguing against much change.

Pretty much the only intellectual the US conservative movement has ever had (i.e., WFB) spouted drivel like “standing athwart history, yelling stop”.

And present-day movement conservatives make WFB look like a genius. Of course they don’t believe in evolution —- it has run backward for US conservatives for at least thirty years.

50 calochortus  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:44:10pm

re: #44 The Ghost of a Flea

I think many of them are so frightened of life in general that putting their fingers in their ears and saying “La la la” as loud as they can is the only way they can cope.

51 calochortus  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:44:33pm

re: #45 OhNoZombies!

He’s not a real authority…

How silly of me to think so…

52 jaunte  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:44:47pm

re: #48 Targetpractice

Alice Walton will give them free admission to her art museum. They just have to travel to Bentonville to see it.

53 freetoken  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:45:57pm

Whether or not Lowry is forced to eat his words, his rag can keep on publishing denialism with no consequence. Even Mann winning his case will not stop NRO beating the GLOBAL WARMING IS A HOAX , because that is what their readership wants to see.

And, because climate change is so slow compared to our human decision making process, Lowry can lead the rest of his life pretending he is “right”.

Dealing with climate change is about managing the future, something we humans are notoriously poor at doing.

And for American political purposes, dealing with climate change means being part of the world, and owning that in its full meaning, something which runs smack into “American Exceptionalism”.

54 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:47:23pm

re: #48 Targetpractice

Wal-Mart offers returning vets who spent years fighting on foreign battlefields the opportunity to work as a greeter for minimum wage. Their generosity truly is astounding.

////

What branch of military did Michael Duke serve in?//

55 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:50:02pm

re: #50 calochortus

I think many of them are so frightened of life in general that putting their fingers in their ears and saying “La la la” as loud as they can is the only way they can cope.

I think they’re frightened of life and trying to figure out who’s to blame, exile, and or imprison.

As much as their worldview is fear, it’s finding someone to blame for that fear and making them hurt…and then making legal policies that formalize the process of hurting those scapegoats.

Like a boot perusing Craiglist looking for a face to trample forever.

56 ericblair  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:50:21pm

re: #31 GeneJockey

We have a winner! Not true of ALL engineers, by any means. But a lot of them.

I’ve got a PhD in engineering, so have a little bit of experience with the subject. You can approach engineering as an applied scientist, who takes the results of pure scientists and solves real-world problems with it. Or you can approach it as a mechanic, who learns to turn the right cranks to get an answer but doesn’t think too deeply about why it works.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with being a mechanic: surgeons are essentially elite mechanics. But it doesn’t give you a whole lot of tools to go outside your area of expertise, and everyone knows how amazingly confident yet frighteningly dangerous a surgeon is with an airplane or a financial portfolio.

Also, I’d assume that denialists with credentials like engineering degrees get a lot more publicity than denialists with cosmetology licenses, so there’s probably a selection effect that goes along with it. But I’ve met enough mechanic types with odd beliefs to know it’s not an isolated incident.

57 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:52:17pm

I think for the Right it’s gone from “Don’t Question Authority” to “Don’t Question Dogma”, now that they’re not in charge. They’re authoritarians, yes, because they still argue from authority (e.g. geologists as authorities on climate), and still attack authority to attack scientific findings (e.g. Darwin, or Phil Jones and Michael Mann).

But in the end, it’s the dogma they cling to not the authority, because any authority who challenges dogma is instantly defrocked, like Muller, the hero/anathema Physicist.

The thing that mystifies me is that their dogma seems to be primarily composed not of positive positions of their own, but rather reactions against Liberal positions, or perhaps more accurately, what they perceive to be Liberal positions. Thus, Bryan Fischer, a social Conservative, must be against AGW, or in favor of DDT. Or agnostic/atheist Conservatives still must disbelieve Evolution.

58 jaunte  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:52:45pm
59 EPR-radar  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:52:52pm

re: #56 ericblair

I’ve got a PhD in engineering, so have a little bit of experience with the subject. You can approach engineering as an applied scientist, who takes the results of pure scientists and solves real-world problems with it. Or you can approach it as a mechanic, who learns to turn the right cranks to get an answer but doesn’t think too deeply about why it works.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with being a mechanic: surgeons are essentially elite mechanics. But it doesn’t give you a whole lot of tools to go outside your area of expertise, and everyone knows how amazingly confident yet frighteningly dangerous a surgeon is with an airplane or a financial portfolio.

Also, I’d assume that denialists with credentials like engineering degrees get a lot more publicity than denialists with cosmetology licenses, so there’s probably a selection effect that goes along with it. But I’ve met enough mechanic types with odd beliefs to know it’s not an isolated incident.

It should also be noted that real scientists can expose themselves as cranks when they get outside their field of expertise. William Shockley is a good example.

The engineers do seem to go off the rails more often, however.

60 freetoken  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:54:42pm

re: #58 jaunte

The North Pole Has Melted. Again.

You can see the ice thinning quite clearly at the pole area:

Image: arcticictn_nowcast_anim30d.gif

61 calochortus  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:55:05pm

re: #55 The Ghost of a Flea

I think they’re frightened of life and trying to figure out who’s to blame, exile, and or imprison.

As much as their worldview is fear, it’s finding someone to blame for that fear and making them hurt…and then making legal policies that formalize the process of hurting those scapegoats.

Like a boot perusing Craiglist looking for a face to trample forever.

And I really do feel sorry for those people. I just wish they’d leave other people alone.

62 calochortus  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:57:36pm

re: #58 jaunte

The North Pole Has Melted. Again.

That’s the sort of post that I don’t know whether to upding or downding. ;-)
Sure it’s great that you brought it to our attention, but I can hardly upding the melting of the North Pole, can I? (But yes, I can in fact upding the post.)

63 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:57:42pm

re: #56 ericblair

I’ve got a PhD in engineering, so have a little bit of experience with the subject. You can approach engineering as an applied scientist, who takes the results of pure scientists and solves real-world problems with it. Or you can approach it as a mechanic, who learns to turn the right cranks to get an answer but doesn’t think too deeply about why it works.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with being a mechanic: surgeons are essentially elite mechanics. But it doesn’t give you a whole lot of tools to go outside your area of expertise, and everyone knows how amazingly confident yet frighteningly dangerous a surgeon is with an airplane or a financial portfolio.

Also, I’d assume that denialists with credentials like engineering degrees get a lot more publicity than denialists with cosmetology licenses, so there’s probably a selection effect that goes along with it. But I’ve met enough mechanic types with odd beliefs to know it’s not an isolated incident.

What it seems to boil down to is that Engineering is about answers, and Science is about questions.

64 EPR-radar  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:58:26pm

re: #57 GeneJockey

I think for the Right it’s gone from “Don’t Question Authority” to “Don’t Question Dogma”, now that they’re not in charge. They’re authoritarians, yes, because they still argue from authority (e.g. geologists as authorities on climate), and still attack authority to attack scientific findings (e.g. Darwin, or Phil Jones and Michael Mann).

But in the end, it’s the dogma they cling to not the authority, because any authority who challenges dogma is instantly defrocked, like Muller, the hero/anathema Physicist.

The thing that mystifies me is that their dogma seems to be primarily composed not of positive positions of their own, but rather reactions against Liberal positions, or perhaps more accurately, what they perceive to be Liberal positions. Thus, Bryan Fischer, a social Conservative, must be against AGW, or in favor of DDT. Or agnostic/atheist Conservatives still must disbelieve Evolution.

In other words, conservative “policy proposals” have degenerated to a transcript of the faithful of the GOP base as they perform ritual denunciations of the hate totems du jour.

65 3eff Jeff  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:58:42pm

re: #13 Targetpractice

It’s even worse than that. Engineering degrees being used as proof of broad expertise in everything is a big red flag for me. They’re way over represented amongst the crackpots, but don’t take my word for it:

Youtube Video

66 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:58:57pm

re: #48 Targetpractice

Wal-Mart offers returning vets who spent years fighting on foreign battlefields the opportunity to work as a greeter for minimum wage. Their generosity truly is astounding.

////

If more people really knew what is going on, there would be a revolution. Reaganomics is the greatest and most costly fraud ever perpetrated on the American people. It is one thing for the exploiters to espouse it, but millions of the exploited do so as well, thanks to the power of the media and fraudulent religious institutions.
I owned a business that I just sold. We made a lot of money over the years. I sold it to a group of employees for a handsome sum. How in the world is that possible? Where did a bunch of clock punchers get that kind of dough? ‘Tis a puzzlement to many in the world of modern red meat entrepreneurship. It wouldn’t happen in the world of “conserf-tif Christian job creator” business, unless some senior manager inherited a big pile from a creator class relative. Gawd has ordained a place for each, for each a place, selah!
Personally, I would rather be dead than pretend I would actually have been doing people a favor by paying them less.

67 OhNoZombies!  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:59:36pm

I don’t know if you guys remember the story about my RW, newsmax luvin’ mother in law who took issue with AGW…
In the discussion, I argued that, according to her belief, humans were supposed to be stewards of the earth, and it was said that the end of days would “come like a thief in the night”, only to end in our firey doom. I said something to the effect that it sounded a lot like AGW to me.

Guess who’s recycling with a fury now?
As a matter of fact, it was like 972 degrees with 700% humidity outside the last time we went over there, and she refused to turn on her air conditioning.

68 darthstar  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 6:59:54pm
69 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:01:10pm

re: #1 GeneJockey

I’d say the probability approaches 1.

is that an asymptotic curve?

70 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:03:02pm

re: #69 engineer cat

is that an asymptotic curve?

Of course! As a scientist I always have to admit the possibility of the nearly impossible.
//

71 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:03:06pm

IF BY “FIXED IT” YOU MEAN “MADE IT BIGGER”

72 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:03:45pm

Also too, why do wingnuts have this obsession with Reagan being a “REAL MAN”?

73 jaunte  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:04:47pm

re: #72 Vicious Babushka

It’s because of Obama’s gay Muslim satanic marriage.

74 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:06:27pm

re: #72 Vicious Babushka

Also too, why do wingnuts have this obsession with Reagan being a “REAL MAN”?

He played one in the movies. I remember one wingnut referring to him affectionately as “the old cowboy.” Reagan was always a media worker, an announcer, model, and actor; he never worked a day in his life on a cattle ranch or any similar establishment though he did buy a hobby ranch with his acting loot later.

75 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:07:28pm

re: #74 Shiplord Kirel

He played one in the movies. I remember one wingnut referring to him affectionately as “the old cowboy.” Reagan was always a media worker, an announcer, model, and actor; he never worked a day in his life on a cattle ranch or any similar establishment though he did buy a hobby ranch with his acting loot later.

He was also *gasp!* the head of a union for a time!

76 engineer cat  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:07:35pm

re: #27 calochortus

I suspect engineers think they are scientists. You can certainly be a scientist and an engineer, but the two are in no way synonymous.

i don’t think i’m a scientist: scientists find stuff out, engineers design and build things

we had some math professors teaching us some of the computer science courses back in the jurassic when i was in school - they kept on asking us for proofs. we rebelled - we’re engineers, just tell us how the math machine works and tell us which crank to turn to get the answer!

i find the occasional wingnut engineer out here in smellycon valley, but they are few and far between. i don’t think it’s engineers that are the problem, it’s that in wingnut country everybody is a wingnut, and just being an engineer doesn’t make you smarter than anybody else

77 jaunte  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:07:39pm

re: #71 Vicious Babushka

I’ll bet “April Thorn” is really a guy.
sevenstarstopmodels.blogspot.com

78 calochortus  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:07:43pm

re: #74 Shiplord Kirel

Appearances are all.

79 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:07:56pm

re: #75 Targetpractice

He was also *gasp!* the head of a union for a time!

YOONYUN THUG!!!1

80 Joanne  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:08:01pm

re: #10 GeneJockey

No. It’s just judicial activism from some evil libural.

81 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:08:42pm

re: #73 jaunte

It’s because of Obama’s gay Muslim satanic marriage.

*FACE PALM*

Why did I not think of that?//

82 bratwurst  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:09:15pm
83 calochortus  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:09:50pm

re: #76 engineer cat

I should have said “some engineers think they are scientists”. In general, engineers are fine people who do many important things. My grandfather was a mining and metallurgical engineer, so maybe I have some street cred?

84 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:10:11pm

re: #71 Vicious Babushka

IF BY “FIXED IT” YOU MEAN “MADE IT BIGGER”

[Embedded content]

Reagan’s fan club never likes to note that unemployment spiked after he took office to a level not even matched in any given month by Obama’s administration, or that the country slipped back into recession after his famed tax cuts. That he raised taxes 11 times. And that the federal deficit had been tripled by the time he left office. They especially don’t like to note that the economy began to crash just as his successor was cashing in the “Peace Dividend” that meant cutting the deficit partly through defense cuts.

85 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:12:23pm

re: #84 Targetpractice

Reagan’s fan club never likes to note that unemployment spiked after he took office to a level not even matched in any given month by Obama’s administration, or that the country slipped back into recession after his famed tax cuts. That he raised taxes 11 times. And that the federal deficit had been tripled by the time he left office. They especially don’t like to note that the economy began to crash just as his successor was cashing in the “Peace Dividend” that meant cutting the deficit partly through defense cuts.

I’m not even including the Reagan years in my wingnut historical revision article (which will take a couple MOAR days because RESEARCH), right now I’m just concentrating on the Civil Rights Act revisionism. Economic revisionism is a whole other topic, I think.

86 twisty  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:14:26pm

re: #12 elizajane

“…the fakers switched to the climate change flimflam in the 2000′s…”

Remember everybody, whenever someone tries to pull this bullshit on you, remind them that Republican strategist Frank Luntz (proud inventor of “death tax” and “job creator” among others) is the one who pushed for climate change to replace global warming in the global warming debate — because “climate change” doesn’t sound as scary and he wanted to help manipulate the public into not taking global warming seriously.

guardian.co.uk

87 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:14:57pm

re: #72 Vicious Babushka

Also too, why do wingnuts have this obsession with Reagan being a “REAL MAN”?

The Cold War and the sense of America as a true superpower throwing its weight around the world, governed by an actor doing a sweet-but-stern dad role as our Leader/Surrogate Father.

88 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:18:21pm

I’m beginning to think these greed crazed pigs really never have heard of the French Revolution, or they at least have no idea how such things happen. They probably think it was incited by liberals so they could raise taxes and rob the “producer” aristocracy of their rightful God ordained property.
If starving former middle-class peasants ever drag me out of my Rolls-Royce and run me through with their pitchforks, my last words will be “Damn you, Reagan, this is your fault.”
I might play for time, though, say something like, “Don’t waste your time with me, there’s a Walton heir AND a fatcat evangelist hiding just up the road. Just look for the custom 4x4.” I will then grab the nearest bike and pedal away to low profile poverty.

89 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:18:24pm

re: #87 The Ghost of a Flea

The Cold War and the sense of America as a true superpower throwing its weight around the world, governed by an actor doing a sweet-but-stern dad role as our Leader/Surrogate Father.

Wingnuts who never stop Derping teh BENGHAZI!!11!!! don’t remember Reagan’s Beirut was BENGHAZI!!11 times 75

90 freetoken  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:19:41pm

re: #87 The Ghost of a Flea

Reagan-worship has a lot to do with daddy-issues and insecurity, I think. Onto RWR many project their need for the ultimate father, since their attempts at doing likewise for “God” is rather intangible, as far as visual images are concerned.

That’s why the Reagan-worshippers so conveniently forget all his failings - because they need an untarnished figure to be the perfect father.

91 OhNoZombies!  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:19:44pm

re: #87 The Ghost of a Flea

The Cold War and the sense of America as a true superpower throwing its weight around the world, governed by an actor doing a sweet-but-stern dad role as our Leader/Surrogate Father.

Yep.
Remember those ABC special reports about MAD and Star Wars (not the good one)?
Reagan would save us from those evil commies, and the Japanese. And Arabs, and Crack.

92 jaunte  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:20:22pm

re: #89 Vicious Babushka

Forgettting the ‘its never a military disaster if a Republican is in the White House’ rule.

93 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:22:06pm

re: #87 The Ghost of a Flea

The Cold War and the sense of America as a true superpower throwing its weight around the world, governed by an actor doing a sweet-but-stern dad role as our Leader/Surrogate Father.

Reagan did what any good actor does: He fooled the audience by telling them what they wanted to hear. America had been in a doldrums after the end of Vietnam and the beginning of all the trouble in the Middle East. So when Reagan comes in, with his grandfatherly wisdom and friendliness, telling that it was “Morning in America” and that America was the “Shining City on a Hill,” they loved him for it.

It’s part of the reason why they hated Clinton and especially hate Obama, because both had the audacity to suggest that America was not the greatest thing to ever grace the Earth and we might, just might, have done some things in the past that we should not be proud of.

94 EPR-radar  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:22:20pm

re: #90 freetoken

Reagan-worship has a lot to do with daddy-issues and insecurity, I think. Onto RWR many project their need for the ultimate father, since their attempts at doing likewise for “God” is rather intangible, as far as visual images are concerned.

That’s why the Reagan-worshippers so conveniently forget all his failings - because they need an untarnished figure to be the perfect father.

Reagan also benefitted from the real and invented failings of the Carter administration.

95 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:23:22pm

re: #89 Vicious Babushka

Wingnuts who never stop Derping teh BENGHAZI!!11!!! don’t remember Reagan’s Beirut was BENGHAZI!!11 times 75

Given what they did to Jesus, their Lord & Savior, I’m not surprised that Ronald Reagan has been imagineered into a muppet.

96 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:24:32pm

re: #91 OhNoZombies!

Yep.
Remember those ABC special reports about MAD and Star Wars (not the good one)?
Reagan would save us from those evil commies, and the Japanese. And Arabs, and Crack.

And black peoples driving T-bone steaks and getting Cadillacs with their food stamps.

Wait. That doesn’t sound quite right.

97 Targetpractice  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:24:49pm

re: #94 EPR-radar

Reagan also benefitted from the real and invented failings of the Carter administration.

That was really the start of the GOP insistence in the narrative that anything good that happens to a president in his first term is entirely of his own doing, but all the bad is because of the asshole who just left office. UE spiked over 10%? “Carter’s fault.” Brief recovery? “Reagan cut taxes!”

98 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:27:11pm

This country has a collective case of Stockholm Syndrome. A hell of a lot of victims identify with their oppressors. Here in Lubbock, the white male vote went something 96/3 for Romney in 2012, with 1% wasting their votes on libertarians and other cranks. Not all of them can be “entrepreneurs,” “producers,” and “creators” as the class rigid GOP defines them. They know they are worse off today than their parents were years ago, but they have been taught, brainwashed if you will, to blame liberals and unions, the very people who brought this country victory in World War 2 and the highest levels of economic equality and social mobility in its history. I’m counting Ike, too, since by current standards he was a lib, too, if not an outright socialist.

99 EPR-radar  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:29:47pm

re: #97 Targetpractice

That was really the start of the GOP insistence in the narrative that anything good that happens to a president in his first term is entirely of his own doing, but all the bad is because of the asshole who just left office. UE spiked over 10%? “Carter’s fault.” Brief recovery? “Reagan cut taxes!”

Had another helicopter or two been included in the failed Iran hostage rescue mission, things might have turned out very differently.

IIRC, Carter said as much after his loss in 1980.

100 jaunte  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 7:33:10pm
101 Carlos Dangler  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 8:06:27pm

re: #95 The Ghost of a Flea

Given what they did to Jesus, their Lord & Savior, I’m not surprised that Ronald Reagan has been imagineered into a muppet.

Funny you should say that, because Robin Williams had a bit about that back when Reagan was still in the White House:
Youtube Video

102 GeneJockey  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 8:25:36pm

re: #76 engineer cat

I think my feelings about engineers on the AGW denial side comes from personal experience with a couple of them. They’re both smart guys, but they also both find ways to rationalize dismissing AGW as a hoax, all of which violate their own rationality in other discussions. They’d normally never stoop to anecdotal arguments, but in AGW, they love to point to a picture of suboptimal temp station placements and say it means you can’t trust the entire instrumental record.

AND they both buy into the ‘discredit Michael Mann, disprove all of AGW’ nonsense, not to mention the ‘it’s all a plot by scientists to destroy Capitalism.

Seeing smart people you otherwise respect act crazy and stupid can color your perceptions.

103 Ming  Wed, Jul 24, 2013 10:16:49pm

I’m concerned that some good people may be discouraged from careers in climate science. They look at a distinguished scientific researcher like Michael Mann, and don’t envy him for being involved in a political controversy. This is an insidious consequence of the thuggish tactics of climate science denialists. For every courageous climate researcher like Michael Mann, there may be some other scientist who could be making contributions to climate science, but who steers clear of that field.

This is one reason why it’s important to hold National Review’s feet to the fire in this case. Their thuggish tactics should have consequences FOR THEM, not for their human targets.

104 Justanotherhuman  Thu, Jul 25, 2013 4:34:00am

Here’s the language in the judge’s decision that is the actual kicker:

“There is sufficient evidence presented that is indicative of “actual malice.” The CEI Defendants have consistently accused Plaintiff of fraud and inaccurate theories, despite Plaintiff’s work having been investigated several times and found to be proper. The CEI Defendants’ persistence despite the EPA and other investigative bodies’ conclusion that Plaintiff’s work is accurate (or that there is no evidence of data manipulation) is equal to a blatant disregard for the falsity of their statements. Thus, given the evidence presented the Court finds that Plaintiff could prove “actual malice.”” [at 23]

Defamation is allowed under Sullivan unless actual malice can be proved. This is the hurdle that Mann must overcome. I’m rooting for him to be able do so, and that the decision will be upheld. oyez.org

105 kerFuFFler  Thu, Jul 25, 2013 6:09:00am

I suspect that the reason so many engineers lean conservative is that they worked soooo hard in college and resented the carefree seeming lifestyle of the students in other departments. (Frankly I think music students work harder than just about anybody….) But anyway, it makes many of them feel like there should be even more income disparity between them and someone who did not even go to college, and they resent seeing their incomes taxed to pay for the benefits of poor households. They feel like they made smart choices and worked hard so they should be well compensated, and since the republicans are often bleating about this many engineers are drawn into the conservative camp where they accept the whole package, even climate change denialism.

Too bad more of them don’t see that the problem is that the very wealthiest are skimming so much of the economy off the top that the 99.99% are compressed into a fairly narrow band of earning. And of course, if the Walmarts of the world paid their employees a decent wage, their employees would not need SNAP and Medicaid.

106 Jolo5309  Thu, Jul 25, 2013 7:43:21am

re: #13 Targetpractice

You notice it’s the people with degrees that have absolutely no relevance in the debate over climate change who always engage in appeals to authority when declaring that it’s all a “hoax.”

It is the same with creationists Intelligent Design explainers, Luskin, Schafly, Meyer, none of them are biologists, yet they all seem to feel the need to explain that since evolution is not completely 100% explained, “goddidit”.

107 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jul 25, 2013 7:51:57am

DERP

108 tricstmr  Thu, Jul 25, 2013 1:36:41pm

Just a note about Engineers vs. Scientists…

One might note that there are just A TON of engineers in the world. There’s like 2 million of them in the US. Given that, you’re gonna get a bunch who know a shit ton about their specialized field—say how to design an integrated circuit or how to manage landfill creation—but who don’t know about other highly technical fields. Also—given 2 million people—you’ll find some—no matter how educated—who just are bat-shit insane.

In any case—here at UW-Madison—I don’t know of any Engineering prof who doesn’t believe in climate change—although we do get students coming into engineering who don’t believe it because of political or religious reasons. Watching them interact with their respected professors who tell them otherwise is always awesome.


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