Dueling Naval War College Professors: Nichols vs. Schindler on Syria

Analysis
Middle East • Views: 25,010

Here’s a good post from US Naval War College Professor Tom Nichols, on what he sees as The Realities of the Coming Syrian War.

My list is directed both to pro and anti-interventionists, in hopes of pointing out things that are true and need to be addressed no matter which side you’re on. In the end, I agree with Slaughter’s argument that we’re reaching a perfect storm where all the reasons to engage in military action are intersecting, but herewith some points to consider:

1. Chemical weapons have been used by the Syrian regime against civilian non-combatants.

You’d think that one would be easy, but you’d be wrong, and if you don’t believe that this has happened, you might as well stop reading right here.

More reasonable critics claim a right to be skeptical after the failures of the Bush administration in 2003. But that’s a flawed comparison: unlike the fruitless hunt for Saddam’s WMDs, this is the actual use of WMDs. It’s not notional or hypothetical. Of course, Bashar Assad could hold up a sign on CNN saying “I did it,” and some in the tin-foil hat crowd would claim it’s a put-up job.

There is a question out there whether Assad gave the order, at least according to Noah Shachtman’s piece today in Foreign Policy:

“It’s unclear where control lies,” one U.S. intelligence official told The Cable. “Is there just some sort of general blessing to use these things? Or are there explicit orders for each attack?” Perhaps it was a lone general putting a long-standing battle plan in motion; perhaps it was a miscalculation by the Assad government….”We don’t know exactly why it happened,” the intelligence official added. “We just know it was pretty fucking stupid.”

Here’s the point: it doesn’t matter. Indeed, it’s almost worse if Syrian generals are slinging chems around, because that would mean the regime has lost operational control of its own stockpile. But chemical weapons, delivered by rockets only the regime has at its disposal, have been used.

This is just the first point; you should read the whole thing.

Nichols makes a strong case for intervention, but I remain unconvinced. Another USNWC professor, John Schindler, seems more opposed to a wider intervention but still sees a necessity for action: Thinking Strategically About Syria.

7. Putting Western boots on the ground in cultures where we and our values are hated is a bad idea unless you are willing to play by their rules, ie be highly brutal on a grand scale towards even civilians. Better not to do it.

8. Never, ever stop thinking about the value of the object, ie what do we really want here? Negative aims are fine, but not having clear, achievable aims is a good way to lose quick.

9. Certain cultures are not impressed by “surgical strikes.” They use mass brutality and think anything less is weak, even effeminate.

10. US and NATO are very good at ISR and precision strike, we have learned an enormous amount about the tactics of hi-tech killing over the last dozen years of war in CENTCOM. But this is not the same thing as strategic wisdom or political insight. Strategy trumps tactics in the long run, always.

Again, read the whole thing, not just my excerpt. Meanwhile, here’s a thread to discuss the troubling prospect of another war in the Middle East.

Jump to bottom

237 comments
1 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:24:27pm

I don’t know, maybe it’s an emotional reaction after getting played so badly with the Iraq War, but I just have a bad feeling about this, despite the rational arguments.

2 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:25:30pm

I have a question for our officials or the President-Is there no way out of this thing short of hostilities? Somehow we restrained ourselves before, and when North Korea detonated a nuke in concert with a long range missile program. Not a single shot was fired.

3 thedopefishlives  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:25:31pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

I don’t know, maybe it’s an emotional reaction after getting played so badly with the Iraq War, but I just have a bad feeling about this, despite the rational arguments.

When the Iraq War came around I was one of the country’s biggest hawks. Time has tempered my response. I do think that we can’t just stand by and let people throw chemical weapons around willy-nilly, but neither do I think that it should be a blanket excuse to lob Tomahawks at a country, either.

4 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:26:16pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

The gorilla in the room-Uncontrollable escalation.

5 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:27:33pm

I see no point in any attack unless we can confidently say the outcome will be better after we do it. Syria is in an unresolved civil war, and it is one that may become a sectarian war. How can we be confident that any action, even total decapitation of the Syrian military commanders, would end the civil war? I do not think the people fighting for Assad are doing it because they’re mind-controlled or he’ll shoot their dogs, I think a large number of them support him. They will not just lay down arms if he is killed.

6 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:28:34pm

re: #2 Political Atheist

And we know that North Korea mistreats its citizens, including the military stealing food from the civilians and leaving them literally starving. I really don’t think a long, prolonged death from malnutrition is really preferable to death in a chemical attack.

7 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:28:44pm

I don’t see how a positive (for the middle east) outcome can come out of this without the use of many ground troops, and that would most likely put Rand Paul in the White House.

8 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:30:24pm

I think the intent at this point will be to damage his ability to use chemical weapons again. But I’m skeptical this can really be achieved with a few cruise missiles.

9 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:30:52pm

re: #5 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I think it has been sectarian for a while now.

I would be okay with strikes, but only if we are targetting ISIS, Al-Nusra, and others of their ilk along side of Assad’s facilities.

Otherwise, no go.

10 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:31:08pm

Here’s a real simple rule of thumb:
If two reasonable, intelligent, informed specialists can’t agree— don’t bomb.

11 thedopefishlives  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:31:45pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

I think the intent at this point will be to damage his ability to use chemical weapons again. But I’m skeptical this can really be achieved with a few cruise missiles.

We’d have to have damn good intel to make sure that we got everything. And I think we all know that “damn good intel” has not exactly been our forte since we started our aggressive posture back in 2001.

12 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:33:28pm

Meanwhile, from the land of your nightmares.

13 SpaceJesus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:34:06pm

I really wish the Arab League would take care of this. Can’t we make some kind of deal?

14 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:34:32pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

Yes exactly.
Remember the SCUD hunts of the first war in Iraq? Tough job. In a whole country it’s hard to find them. Few things would be better hidden and defended. “Not regime change” “Not enough to topple the regime” Are cruise missile an effective way to merely slap a tyrants wrist? I’m a bit doubtful.

15 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:34:45pm

I can’t see any way I’d ever support sending US troops into Syria. That would not be sane.

16 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:35:49pm

re: #13 SpaceJesus

Yes, let Saudi Arabia have power over this.

\\\

That would be worse than Assad. You would see death camps for Alawites and Christians.

17 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:36:46pm

re: #16 ProTARDISLiberal

And, while that might seem to be Hyperbolic, look up what they did to the Jews of Najran province in the 30’s.

18 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:38:16pm

Saudi Arabia is pushing hard for action against Assad:

Veteran Saudi Power Player Prince Bandar Works to Build Support to Topple Assad

19 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:40:08pm

Click the top link on this Google search page to read that WSJ article in full:

google.com

20 abolitionist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:40:26pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

“Available to WSJ.com Subscribers”

21 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:42:32pm

Pro-tip: you can read any WSJ article in full by Googling its title and clicking through from the results page. When the link comes from Google it bypasses their paywall.

22 Patricia Kayden  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:43:53pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

Feel the same. Strangely, I didn’t mind what the US did in Libya, but getting involved at all in Syria just strikes me as an unwise decision. Let some other country lead out on this.

23 Stephen T.  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:44:30pm

There are times I’m glad I have no position of political power. This is one of them. It seems like every possible choice is the wrong one, surgical strikes, providing arms, providing training, invading, regime change, even including doing nothing.

24 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:44:37pm


JUDY WOODRUFF: Mr. President, you’ve just come from making a speech at - celebrating a nonviolent event, the March on Washington, Martin Luther King’s speech 50 years ago. We’re going to get to that in just a moment. But first, we want to ask you about a place where there’s been too much violence: Syria. How close are you to authorizing a military strike? And can you assure the American people that by doing so, given Iraq and Afghanistan, that the United States will not get bogged down in yet another war halfway around the world?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, first of all, I’ve not made a decision. I have gotten options from our military, had extensive discussions with my national security team.

…This is a volatile country in a very volatile region. We’ve got allies bordering Syria. Turkey is a NATO ally, Jordan a close friend that we work with a lot. Israel is very close by. We’ve got bases throughout the region. We cannot see a breach of the nonproliferation norm that allows, potentially, chemical weapons to fall into the hands of all kinds of folks.

So what I’ve said is that we have not yet made a decision, but the international norm against the use of chemical weapons needs to be kept in place. And nobody disputes - or hardly anybody disputes that chemical weapons were used on a large scale in Syria against civilian populations.

We have looked at all the evidence, and we do not believe the opposition possessed nuclear weapons on - or chemical weapons of that sort. We do not believe that, given the delivery systems, using rockets, that the opposition could have carried out these attacks. We have concluded that the Syrian government in fact carried these out. And if that’s so, then there need to be international consequences.

So we are consulting with our allies. We’re consulting with the international community. And you know, I have no interest in any kind of open-ended conflict in Syria, but we do have to make sure that when countries break international norms on weapons like chemical weapons that could threaten us, that they are held accountable…

25 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:45:35pm
GWEN IFILL: For the American people who look at this and say, why are we getting involved, how do you justify taking action? I know you talked about international norms because of chemical weapon use, but not because of the 100,000 people who were killed there in the past, and the 2 million refugees who fled across the border.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, what’s happened has been heartbreaking, but when you start talking about chemical weapons in a country that has the largest stockpile of chemical weapons in the world, where over time, their control over chemical weapons may erode, where they’re allied to known terrorist organizations that, in the past, have targeted the United States, then there is a prospect, a possibility, in which chemical weapons that can have devastating effects could be directed at us. And we want to make sure that that does not happen.

There is a reason why there is an international norm against chemical weapons. There’s a reason why consistently, you know, the rules of war have suggested that the use of chemical weapons violates Geneva Protocols. So they’re different, and we want to make that they are not loose in a way that ultimately, could affect our security.

And if, in fact, we can take limited, tailored approaches, not getting drawn into a long conflict, not a repetition of, you know, Iraq, which I know a lot of people are worried about - but if we are saying in a clear and decisive but very limited way, we send a shot across the bow saying, stop doing this, that can have a positive impact on our national security over the long term, and may have a positive impact on our national security over the long term and may have a positive impact in the sense that chemical weapons are not used again on innocent civilians.

26 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:46:26pm

They kind of messed up the transcript there.

27 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:47:18pm

I really feel like, truly, some other country should do this if it’s deemed necessary by the international community. It would be better for the world at large. Making the US be the guy who shoots the gun isn’t good for anyone. If the UN wants to punish Assad militarily, then either the UN should do it itself or some other alliance of countries should. The US simply has far too much baggage and any attack from us gives a ready-made rallying cry for those we attack.

28 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:47:31pm

re: #23 Stephen T.

There are times I’m glad I have no position of political power. This is one of them. It seems like every possible choice is the wrong one, surgical strikes, providing arms, providing training, invading, regime change, even including doing nothing.

“The only way to win is not to play.”

29 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:48:15pm

re: #27 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I really feel like, truly, some other country should do this if it’s deemed necessary by the international community. It would be better for the world at large. Making the US be the guy who shoots the gun isn’t good for anyone. If the UN wants to punish Assad militarily, then either the UN should do it itself or some other alliance of countries should. The US simply has far too much baggage and any attack from us gives a ready-made rallying cry for those we attack.

Let Russia bring their client to heel.

30 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:49:09pm

re: #27 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I really feel like, truly, some other country should do this if it’s deemed necessary by the international community. It would be better for the world at large. Making the US be the guy who shoots the gun isn’t good for anyone. If the UN wants to punish Assad militarily, then either the UN should do it itself or some other alliance of countries should. The US simply has far too much baggage and any attack from us gives a ready-made rallying cry for those we attack.

France seems like they’re rarin’ to go.

French President: France ‘Is Ready to Punish’ Those Responsible for Gas Attack in Syria

31 Bear  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:51:01pm

Perhaps it is time to play MYOB.


MYOB=mind your own business

32 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:52:16pm

John Schindler mentioned in his piece that Syria was “on death ground” and would fight hard. Even Sun Tzu said, In difficult or death ground; fight.” Since Israel has most of the good intelligence information in the area it should be used. If Prince Bandar can come up with a solution without a fight that would be good. There are many things going on in this situation and all of the pieces are still in motion.

33 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:52:30pm

re: #27 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

If the UN wants to punish Assad militarily, then either the UN should do it itself or some other alliance of countries should.

It does not. Russia or China can veto and that’s it. In theory Assad could continue chemical attacks and it would still only take one veto from a permanent member to stop any UN sanctioned attack.

34 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:53:35pm

How do western powers help resolve this without one country taking a prominent lead? I think Pres Obama has been talking with other western countries about shared responsibility, as well as some in the ME.

The UN was allowed to go in to examine evidence of the chemical attacks, and it will be days before they have results.

No, I don’t think the “gorilla in the room” is escalation, I think it is tribal loyalties arranged according to sects. We saw that in Iraq, we’ve also seen it in other ME countries, and it is an ongoing problem that can only be managed with secular, more democratic govts.

I think if chemical agents are being used, it’s because conventional weapons are in short supply, as are munitions, regardless of Russia’s rhetoric. I don’t think Assad has the upper hand particularly, rather that he’s in a rather vulnerable position right now, and even Iran is divided on Syria. That should be a consideration in any kind of action that is undertaken, whether through diplomatic channels and/or any use of force.

35 ObserverArt  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:55:47pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

I don’t know, maybe it’s an emotional reaction after getting played so badly with the Iraq War, but I just have a bad feeling about this, despite the rational arguments.

Rational arguments always seem to fall by the wayside in the Middle East. I think that is the fear you fear.

And no good that would ever come out of whatever we do ever seems to last long either. How many Egyptian peace plans have their been?

Until the people in the entire region decide they’ve had enough nothing is going to change. Sadly. Whatever we do is guaranteed to piss someone else off. How can you ever win?

36 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:56:05pm

Imagine every hypothetical dollar spent on Syrian cruise missile strikes and bombing being used to upgrade US electrical infrastructure. We’re going to need a much more robust grid and vastly improved energy storage capabilities if we want to make tied in solar work past the 10 to 20% production threshold. And we’ve got to make home grid tied in solar a major priority if we ever want to ween ourselves off of oil. That in turn is the only way we will ever stop supporting the crappiest governments in the world.

In this case the best long term kind of interventionism is through a type of economic isolation, one that permanently alters our established and destructive priorities in the middle east.

37 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:56:08pm

I have some reading to do.

Later, lizards.

38 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:56:24pm

re: #27 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I really feel like, truly, some other country should do this if it’s deemed necessary by the international community. It would be better for the world at large. Making the US be the guy who shoots the gun isn’t good for anyone. If the UN wants to punish Assad militarily, then either the UN should do it itself or some other alliance of countries should. The US simply has far too much baggage and any attack from us gives a ready-made rallying cry for those we attack.

And to take this point further, if Syria has used chemical weapons against civilians, that probably creates treaty obligations for just about all members of the UN, including Russia, to take action to stop further atrocities.

If Russia wants to use its security council veto to get in front of that train, all I can say is “please proceed, Mr. Putin”.

39 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:56:31pm

re: #34 Justanotherhuman

How do western powers help resolve this without one country taking a prominent lead? I think Pres Obama has been talking with other western countries about shared responsibility, as well as some in the ME.

The UN was allowed to go in to examine evidence of the chemical attacks, and it will be days before they have results.

No, I don’t think the “gorilla in the room” is escalation, I think it is tribal loyalties arranged according to sects. We saw that in Iraq, we’ve also seen it in other ME countries, and it is an ongoing problem that can only be managed with secular, more democratic govts.

I think if chemical agents are being used, it’s because conventional weapons are in short supply, as are munitions, regardless of Russia’s rhetoric. I don’t think Assad has the upper hand particularly, rather that he’s in a rather vulnerable position right now, and even Iran is divided on Syria. That should be a consideration in any kind of action that is undertaken, whether through diplomatic channels and/or any use of force.

Thought about that today.

40 calochortus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 5:59:26pm

re: #38 EPR-radar

And to take this point further, if Syria has used chemical weapons against civilians, that probably creates treaty obligations for just about all members of the UN, including Russia, to take action to stop further atrocities.

If Russia wants to use its security council veto to get in front of that train, all I can say is “please proceed, Mr. Putin”.

I believe the Russians maintain that we don’t know who used those chemical weapons, so we can’t go after anyone. Yet. I’m guessing “yet” will never come.

41 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:02:19pm

re: #40 calochortus

I believe the Russians maintain that we don’t know who used those chemical weapons, so we can’t go after anyone. Yet. I’m guessing “yet” will never come.

That’s my take as well.

However, I’m hoping enough solid evidence is gathered by the present UN fact finding mission that maintaining this fiction becomes a costly embarrassment for Russia.

The loss of US credibility in such matters is another gift from the GW Bush years that keeps on giving.

42 dog philosopher  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:03:35pm

to flame!

see y’all later…

43 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:04:34pm

re: #41 EPR-radar

When we went into Iraq, the weapons were suspected to exist. We did not have the concrete proof of use of the weapons. Right there… full stop on comparisons to GWB.

44 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:05:19pm

Bashar Assad’s father used horrific brutality against the Syrian people, and in his day it worked. He stayed in power.

Things are changing for Baby Bashar. Events are slipping out of his grasp and he’s getting desperate, trying the same massive brutality that worked for his father — but finding out that the international community actually gives a fuck this time around.

45 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:06:13pm

re: #43 Political Atheist

When we went into Iraq, the weapons were suspected to exist. We did not have the concrete proof of use of the weapons. Right there… full stop on comparisons to GWB.

Maybe we can get Colin Powell to hold up a vial of yellow oily liquid.

46 Bubblehead II  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:06:42pm

Night Lizards. From the 83301 Zip Code, life sucks. We live with it. Perhaps you should do.

47 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:07:07pm

re: #45 Decatur Deb

Or the Kuwaiti flag. :-)

48 calochortus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:07:20pm

re: #41 EPR-radar

That’s my take as well.

However, I’m hoping enough solid evidence is gathered by the present UN fact finding mission that maintaining this fiction becomes a costly embarrassment for Russia.

The loss of US credibility in such matters is another gift from the GW Bush years that keeps on giving.

I, too, hope they have solid evidence-especially after the Iraq fiasco. I do think the idea of embarrassing the Russians is a vain hope.

49 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:08:37pm

re: #43 Political Atheist

When we went into Iraq, the weapons were suspected to exist. We did not have the concrete proof of use of the weapons. Right there… full stop on comparisons to GWB.

Not really. Existence or non-existence of the weapons is not the issue in Syria. They exist, and were used. The only remaining question is ”used by who?”.

50 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:10:22pm

re: #49 EPR-radar

Not really. Existence or non-existence of the weapons is not the issue in Syria. They exist, and were used. The only remaining question is “used by who?”.

I read that on the Internet.

51 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:11:38pm

re: #49 EPR-radar

So you are of the opinion it’s a real possibility the rebels did this?

52 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:12:02pm

re: #49 EPR-radar

Not really. Existence or non-existence of the weapons is not the issue in Syria. They exist, and were used. The only remaining question is “used by who?”.

EN says, “used by whom?” We know who used them, if you’re referring to chemicals.

53 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:12:56pm

I too feel emotional ambivalent Syria.

While I still think the people of Iraq are better off because our intervention, I’m not sure we are.

I have to ask, who will this proposed war really help? Halliburton?

54 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:13:18pm

re: #43 Political Atheist

When we went into Iraq, the weapons were suspected to exist. We did not have the concrete proof of use of the weapons. Right there… full stop on comparisons to GWB.

Except that GWB & Company were sitting on documents proving that Saddam’s past use of chemical weapons had been done not only with our approval, but with our targeting assistance.

New Docs Detail U.S. Involvement in Saddam’s Nerve Gas Attacks

Any way you slice it, the Bush administration’s argument was not only massively hypocritical, but they lied by omission to make it. Proof of our overt involvement in Saddam’s past use of chemical weapons would have had a huge impact on the public debate going into the 2003 invasion, and that’s why it was kept secret.

55 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:14:58pm

The other night I was complaining about having to send out resumes, but I do have a phone interview tomorrow night. Yeah.

It’s marketing/PR job for a start-up in NY.

Wish me luck.

56 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:17:21pm

re: #51 Political Atheist

So you are of the opinion it’s a real possibility the rebels did this?

Not really. That is the excuse the Russians are using, and I’d like to see some real evidence put into play to demolish that excuse.

57 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:17:21pm

re: #55 Iwouldprefernotto

The other night I was complaining about having to send out resumes, but I do have a phone interview tomorrow night. Yeah.

It’s marketing/PR job for a start-up in NY.

Wish me luck.

luck!

58 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:18:28pm

Hubby took kid to the ER —possible appendicitis. Serious pain, fever etc. Ended-up being colitis. They put him on major antibiotic and antivirals with nice pain meds.

I never would have suspected colitis.

59 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:18:42pm
60 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:18:43pm

Don’t forget, Syria has admitted it has chemical weapons, something that non-governmental agencies have maintained for years, a regular chemical weapons program.

Syria Threatens Chemical Attack on Foreign Force

nytimes.com

And Syria lied through its teeth:

“The warning came out of Damascus, veiled behind an assurance that the Syrian leadership would never use such weapons against its own citizens, describing chemical arms as outside the bounds of the kind of guerrilla warfare being fought internally.

“Any stock of W.M.D. or unconventional weapons that the Syrian Army possesses will never, never be used against the Syrian people or civilians during this crisis, under any circumstances,” a Foreign Ministry spokesman, Jihad Makdissi, said at a news conference shown live on Syrian state television, using the initials for weapons of mass destruction. “These weapons are made to be used strictly and only in the event of external aggression against the Syrian Arab Republic.”

“Mr. Makdissi said that any such weapons were carefully monitored by the Syrian Army, and that ultimately their use would be decided by generals.” (My emphasis)

61 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:18:51pm

re: #55 Iwouldprefernotto

Are you in NYC?

62 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:20:24pm

Waits.

63 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:21:12pm

re: #61 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Are you in NYC?

Yes. I live in Brooklyn

64 celticdragon  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:21:15pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

I think the intent at this point will be to damage his ability to use chemical weapons again. But I’m skeptical this can really be achieved with a few cruise missiles.

You might be able to sideline his air force by cratering runways and hitting the avgas depots, but that will only give a few days respite to the rebels…and most of the rebels seem to be the sort who we would never want to help in the first place. The Orthodox Christians in Syria are in for a bad time from what i can see.

65 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:21:49pm

To Continue: Information about DNS hacking. Methods and stuff..So far Charles spoke of the poison DNS attack and I posted some other popular methods..
Here is another way to hack DNS ( For informational purposes only ) Hak5 teaches the brute force method of hacking DNS.
( What is simply ironic..Microsoft advertises and supports Hak5..)
Youtube Video

66 nines09  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:22:09pm

So who is “our” friend in this? Who do we wish to win? Millions have been murdered and worse around the world and we stood idly by, just as the rest of the “civilized” world did. Whose money or power is in jeopardy here? I don’t like it one bit.

67 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:22:55pm

re: #59 Gus

[Embedded content]

Screwed up tweet header—Texas has nothing to do with it.

68 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:22:55pm

re: #66 nines09

So who is “our” friend in this? Who do we wish to win? Millions have been murdered and worse around the world and we stood idly by, just as the rest of the “civilized” world did. Whose money or power is in jeopardy here? I don’t like it one bit.

Millions around the world aren’t sitting atop oil fields.

69 bratwurst  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:24:00pm

Wondering what a total buffoon thinks about this conundrum?

70 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:24:31pm

re: #65 A Man for all Seasons

To Continue: Information about DNS hacking. Methods and stuff..So far Charles spoke of the poison DNS attack and I posted some other popular methods..
Here is another way to hack DNS ( For informational purposes only ) Hak5 teaches the brute force method of hacking DNS.
( What is simply ironic..Microsoft advertises and supports Hak5..)
[Embedded content]

Whoops..That link is for the man in the middle attack..Try again..Brute Force
www.yYoutube Video

71 Iwouldprefernotto  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:24:51pm

re: #69 bratwurst

Wondering what a total buffoon thinks about this conundrum?

[Embedded content]

Trump is just upset that his buildings were not worthy of being attacked.

72 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:25:11pm

I posted these last night, one as a comment and one as a response. Comment:

Cruise missiles or precision strikes…

Pesky choices!

Follow the Prowlers:

en.wikipedia.org (Hmm, link didn’t copy. Go to “EA-6B” on Wiki)

If they move these bad boys forward, we’ll be taking down Chinless’ air defense system and sending in the strike guys to deliver JDAMs and JSOW anti-armor packages. My guess for why we will do this is to give the Syrians such a huge materiel loss (read: destroy lots and lots of really expensive stuff) that they will be hugely degraded in the fight against the Freedom Fighters/rebels/Islamists/ whatever the fuck they are, solely because they screwed the pooch and deployed nerve agents. It will also make them naked to future air strikes by anyone in the neighborhood.

Even an ophthalmologist can understand the really bad strategery in that.

Response: (to Lidane, who I deeply respect)

re: #178 Lidane

There are at least nine factions in Syria and we don’t like most of them. Killing Assad just emboldens the rest and causes the US more problems than it’s worth.

Step back from all the macho caveman bullshit that the right is bleating these days and THINK. There are no good options in Syria. We don’t like most of the people fighting amongst each other. There’s no strategic reason for us to engage Syria. Yes, the chemical attacks are repugnant, but after a decade plus of being eyeball deep in Iraq we can’t just go starting another goddamn war in the Middle East.

Me:

You are exactly right, and we are going to smash portions of the Syrian military anyway. And they deserve it. You just can’t thumb your nose at the West and the Geneva Conventions that way, that blatantly, and expect to walk away la-dee-dah. And I have a sneaking suspicion that Assad was as surprised as anyone that his military gassed those civs. His military is not a single team.

We’ll see how this plays out, but the Russian Navy ain’t getting into the Med.

73 celticdragon  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:25:33pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Saudi Arabia is pushing hard for action against Assad:

Veteran Saudi Power Player Prince Bandar Works to Build Support to Topple Assad

Because that takes out a major Iranian ally and strengthens the position of the Saudis.

I do not see how that actually improves anything for us…and if anything, a fundamentalist regime in Damascus will be an even worse problem for Israel then a secular Baathist pan-Arabist sort that you have with Assad.

74 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:26:27pm
75 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:27:11pm

re: #58 FemNaziBitch

Hubby took kid to the ER —possible appendicitis. Serious pain, fever etc. Ended-up being colitis. They put him on major antibiotic and antivirals with nice pain meds.

I never would have suspected colitis.

My appendicitis completely didn’t match the standard symptoms - the only thing that presented ‘normal’ was that if you pressed on my left side, the right hurt on removal of pressure.

So I am totally not surprised to hear something masquerading as appendicitis, because everyone responds to everything differently. I’m just fortunate that because the policy is remove if there is even the slightest suspicion, because it was definitely fully involved by the time they pulled it out.

On the downside, it a) hurt a whole lot more after removal than before (because I never did have that severe abdominal pain) and b) it was right in the middle of grad school applications.

76 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:27:42pm

re: #63 Iwouldprefernotto

Yes. I live in Brooklyn

Oh coolio. If you want to shoot me your resume, I’ve got a friend of my wife’s who buys small companies and revamps them, and often brings in new people to do that. Of course I hope this current offer for you works out, but he might be a good resource for you.

My email is my name here at gmail

77 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:28:47pm

And, also, too…

78 celticdragon  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:28:58pm

re: #72 austin_blue

We’ll see how this plays out, but the Russian Navy ain’t getting into the Med.

And here I was hoping to see a Kirov Class battlecruiser face off with some Arleigh Burke destroyers…

79 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:29:39pm

re: #77 Charles Johnson

And, also, too…

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The constant refreshing of “who to follow” annoying.

80 celticdragon  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:31:13pm

Gnite all. Pain issues getting me again. I was going to try to go to the big Moral Monday protest (scheduled for today instead of Monday) here in Greensboro, but hurting too bad. meh.

See you tomorrow. :)

81 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:31:17pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

I think the intent at this point will be to damage his ability to use chemical weapons again. But I’m skeptical this can really be achieved with a few cruise missiles.

The question of whether this was a sanctioned or unsanctioned use is a huge one. If it was sanctioned, then making the case to go after Assad directly becomes easier.

If it was unsanctioned, it really does open up a huge mess - that central control over Syria’s chemical arsenal is no longer a certainty. That means that suspected arsenals and storage points are not as secured as anticipated and that others outside the chain of command may be toting around chemical weapons for use at any time. That makes trying to secure them - or destroy them in place even more difficult, if not impossible.

Trying to take out the WMD sites themselves works only if you know the sites are secured and that noone is going to get in to them. That could mean putting boots on the ground in the form of containment teams, but that could be a daunting task all its own because of the size of some of the suspected sites. We’re not talking about trying to secure a single building - list of facilities.

It’s believed that Syria has about 1,000 tons of chemical weapons, though Israel and some in the West think it higher (perhaps to inflate fears, but also because they might be right).

This particular article also notes that there have been several rounds of secret talks between Israel and Syria over the years to deal precisely with the issue of Syria’s missile stocks (the ability to deliver the chemical weapons to targets) and trying to address security concerns for both countries. Nothing came of them, but all those attempts to deal with missile arsenals is now beyond the talks.

82 Justanotherhuman  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:32:10pm

CA Rim fire statistics as of this evening.

cdfdata.fire.ca.gov

192,466 acres - 30% contained

83 aagcobb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:32:13pm

re: #18 Charles Johnson

Saudi Arabia is pushing hard for action against Assad:

Veteran Saudi Power Player Prince Bandar Works to Build Support to Topple Assad

And that’s not because the Saudis have deep humanitarian concerns about chemical weapon use. They want to use us as their Queen in their chess match with the Ayatollahs.

84 bratwurst  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:32:49pm

re: #77 Charles Johnson

Threaded comments are an example of man’s inhumanity to man.

85 nines09  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:33:39pm

re: #68 FemNaziBitch

Millions around the world aren’t sitting atop oil fields.

Didn’t wish to state that. Obviously.

86 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:33:51pm

re: #80 celticdragon

Gnite all. Pain issues getting me again. I was going to try to go to the big Moral Monday protest (scheduled for today instead of Monday) here in Greensboro, but hurting too bad. meh.

See you tomorrow. :)

(((((celticdragon)))))

87 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:34:29pm

re: #54 goddamnedfrank

That does not reduce the ways these two things are not the same. If anything, you help my point.

88 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:34:35pm

re: #85 nines09

Didn’t wish to state that. Obviously.

I apologize, I haven’t been paying attention.

89 darthstar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:34:38pm

Context is everything.


But then I get this just now (since MLK is trending) with my response:

90 sagehen  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:34:55pm

I was wildly in favor of what we did in Libya, but I do not support involving ourselves in Syria.

What I see as the biggest differences:

1. The Libyan opposition was a cohesive, identifiable coalition with a leadership structure who could speak on their behalf. And we actually like them, and they like us.

2. Speaking on their behalf, said Libyan opposition leadership asked us to please intervene in a very specific, definable way. A way that’s exactly in our wheelhouse.

3. Quadafi was a particular burr under our saddle for decades anyway; we were pleased to be asked.

4. All of Europe was willing to chip in; most of the Arab world said “yeah, go ahead, we don’t mind.”


I’m with Connor Friedersdorf on this one; if we must meddle, howzabout we toss a few billion dollars into refugee assistance — give the neighbor countries logistical and material support in setting up safe and comfy places for the civilians to get out of the way and wait for things to settle down.

91 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:35:01pm

re: #54 goddamnedfrank

Except that GWB & Company were sitting on documents proving that Saddam’s past use of chemical weapons had been done not only with our approval, but with our targeting assistance.

Any way you slice it, the Bush administration’s argument was not only massively hypocritical, but they lied by omission to make it. Proof of our overt involvement in Saddam’s past use of chemical weapons would have had a huge impact on the public debate going into the 2003 invasion, and that’s why it was kept secret.

The US really shouldn’t be bleating now about use of chemical weapons as somehow categorically crossing a red line.

This red line is obviously mythical.

92 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:35:13pm

re: #78 celticdragon

And here I was hoping to see a Kirov Class battlecruiser face off with some Arleigh Burke destroyers…

Hard to face off with anything when a Los Angeles class swarmer has turned your hull into holes…

93 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:35:35pm

Tom Waits on war

Youtube Video

94 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:35:50pm

re: #27 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

I really feel like, truly, some other country should do this if it’s deemed necessary by the international community. It would be better for the world at large. Making the US be the guy who shoots the gun isn’t good for anyone. If the UN wants to punish Assad militarily, then either the UN should do it itself or some other alliance of countries should. The US simply has far too much baggage and any attack from us gives a ready-made rallying cry for those we attack.

Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

95 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:36:12pm

re: #51 Political Atheist

There are several possibilities:

1) Assad’s forces used the weapons on orders from within the chain of command.

2) Assad’s forces used the weapons, but outside chain of command.

3) Rebels used the weapons.

Best case scenario is 1 - since it indicates that there is still central control over the WMD, and that securing them is not as problematic.

2 is a real bad situation since it means that Assad can’t control his own forces, or that’s an attempt at plausible deniability.

3 is the worst case scenario since it indicates that the WMD stockpiles in the country aren’t secure and the rebels may have overrun one or more of these sites either knowingly or unknowingly and unleashed these weapons.

96 jc717  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:36:34pm

re: #2 Political Atheist

I have a question for our officials or the President-Is there no way out of this thing short of hostilities? Somehow we restrained ourselves before, and when North Korea detonated a nuke in concert with a long range missile program. Not a single shot was fired.

North Korea has enough artillery aimed at Saul to level that city in minutes. They are also, arguably, crazy enough to do it.

If we want to end the civil war in Syria then we should pressure Saudi Arabia and UAE to stop financing the ‘rebels’.

97 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:37:05pm

re: #94 b_sharp

Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

Crossbows or Q-bomb?

98 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:39:14pm
99 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:40:29pm


1.9 million refugees.

100 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:41:09pm

re: #96 jc717

Perpetuate the tyrant. Ugh.

101 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:41:45pm

re: #91 EPR-radar

The US really shouldn’t be bleating now about use of chemical weapons as somehow categorically crossing a red line.

This red line is obviosly mythical.

Yes, yes, we gave SatanicSaddam precursors to chem weapons decades ago during the Iran-Iraq war. It was dumb. Does that mean we can’t take a stand against nuking your neighbor because of Hiroshima?

Hollow argument, innit?

102 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:42:08pm

Just like I predicted. No principles. A war rages in Syria for 2.5 years and silence. No organized protests. Finally, the USA might intervene? They organize. It’s not an anti-war movement. It’s an anti-US-war movement.

103 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:42:37pm

re: #96 jc717

North Korea has enough artillery aimed at Saul to level that city in minutes.

Saul got there ahead of them.

104 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:42:43pm

re: #94 b_sharp

Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

Dr. Kokintz!

105 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:42:54pm

re: #95 lawhawk

When my President says there can be no doubt, I’m in. Obama is no Bush. Pending better evidence I believe him.

106 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:44:11pm

re: #102 Gus

Just like I predicted. No principles. A war rages in Syria for 2.5 years and silences. No organized protests. Finally, the USA might intervene? They organize. It’s not an anti-war movement. It’s an anti-US-war movement.

Or, they know demonstrating won’t make Assad do shit, but demonstrating might actually effect what the US does. It’s not really a lack of principles. I can spend time arguing we shouldn’t strike Assad even though I don’t ever say “Assad should stop attacking his own citizens”, because saying the latter is both obvious and useless, I can’t hope to have any control over what he does, but I can have limited effect on what the US does.

107 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:44:20pm

Doesn’t the US gov’t have insect sized micro-drones they can send after Assad?

I heard they had them.

108 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:44:23pm

re: #101 austin_blue

Yes, yes, we gave SatanicSaddam precursors to chem weapons decades ago during the Iran-Iraq war. It was dumb. Does that mean we can’t take a stand against nuking your neighbor because of Hiroshima?

Hollow argument, innit?

Not so hollow. The use of nukes by the US in Japan is much easier to justify than the US letting a client state run amok with chemical weapons just because they were fighting Iran at the time.

109 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:44:32pm

re: #90 sagehen

Not to mention that the the main members of the Intervention force (US, UK, and France) had all suffered from Qaddafi’s shit.

Whether it be Pan Am Flight 103, UTA Flight 772, or the Troubles that have scarred the UK so badly.

I am much more ambivalent about Syria because of how splintered everything is.

If there were an organized, moderate force, I would be more for it.

But right now, I would only be for hitting Assad if we also struck the more radical elements among the rebels.

110 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:46:59pm

re: #90 sagehen

It’s the fact that the rebels aren’t coherent that is the worst part of it.

Assad’s following his dad’s Hama rules - updated and abridged edition. Murder the opposition and take no prisoners. It’s a bigger opposition than when Hafez tore apart Hama decades ago, but Bashar’s solution is still to use his military assets to destroy and eliminate the opposition.

With his conventional military at stalemate, he’s potentially chosen to use chemical weapons as a means to break the resolve. That’s not likely to be the outcome since it will only redouble efforts to take Assad down since it shows he’s not willing to even consider anything less than eliminating his enemies. No holds barred.

But while he’s stalemated with the rebels, the rebels themselves are disorganized and not a coherent bunch. You’ve got Islamists, al Qaeda-aligned groups, as well as moderate Syrians who are tired of Assad’s brutality. The biggest concern is if the West goes after Assad, that the Islamists or al Qaeda benefits.

While the Libyans managed to hold things together long enough to make a coherent plea to get NATO assistance, they haven’t had as much success after Khadafi was deposed.

111 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:47:19pm

re: #95 lawhawk

There are several possibilities:

1) Assad’s forces used the weapons on orders from within the chain of command.

2) Assad’s forces used the weapons, but outside chain of command.

3) Rebels used the weapons.

Best case scenario is 1 - since it indicates that there is still central control over the WMD, and that securing them is not as problematic.

2 is a real bad situation since it means that Assad can’t control his own forces, or that’s an attempt at plausible deniability.

3 is the worst case scenario since it indicates that the WMD stockpiles in the country aren’t secure and the rebels may have overrun one or more of these sites either knowingly or unknowingly and unleashed these weapons.

And got the short-range missile systems to shoot them into the neighborhood.

Anyone who thinks the rebels gassed their own families is wearing a tin foil hat. I’m betting on #2. His sect is 5% of the population. Lots of factions in his military.

112 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:47:32pm

re: #106 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Then again, some of these groups are the same ones that lied through their teeth on things during Libya. Remember, ANSWER outright lied about several things. I did some pages on it back then.

113 darthstar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:48:49pm

Seven tweets later, the air is cleared.

114 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:48:55pm

re: #99 Gus

2 million refugees. Over 2 million refugees, both internal and those who have fled Syria to Turkey, Jordan, and even Iraq.

115 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:49:21pm

re: #110 lawhawk

The Muslim Brotherhood has been getting a lot of assistance from Qatar. This has resulted in them having more money and power to swing around in Libya.

This is why I am reticent to watch Al-Jazeera America. They will just parrot the MB line.

116 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:50:01pm

re: #111 austin_blue

It is possible that they didn’t know what they were firing, though that possibility is undermined by the fact that the rebels include some who were formerly in the regular Syrian military (though how much exposure they had to WMD training is suspect).

117 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:50:11pm

re: #106 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Or, they know demonstrating won’t make Assad do shit, but demonstrating might actually effect what the US does. It’s not really a lack of principles. I can spend time arguing we shouldn’t strike Assad even though I don’t ever say “Assad should stop attacking his own citizens”, because saying the latter is both obvious and useless, I can’t hope to have any control over what he does, but I can have limited effect on what the US does.

I don’t think they’re that sophisticated. They do it because it’s the big old bad USA. They do it because, Israel and the USA. They do it because it’s de moda.

118 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:50:17pm

re: #112 ProTARDISLiberal

Then again, some of these groups are the same ones that lied through their teeth on things during Libya. Remember, ANSWER outright lied about several things. I did some pages on it back then.

Sure, some are nuts. some are against it because they think it’s a Marxist plot. I don’t care. It’s still legitimate for someone to only vocally protest a war when their country may wage it, because their country is the only one they can really hope to affect.

119 darthstar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:50:40pm

re: #114 lawhawk

2 million refugees. Over 2 million refugees, both internal and those who have fled Syria to Turkey, Jordan, and even Iraq.

You don’t…have…to live like a refugee
Unless you live in the above countries.

120 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:51:25pm

re: #117 Gus

I don’t think they’re that sophisticated. They do it because it’s the big old bad USA. They do it because, Israel and the USA. They do it because it’s de moda.

I don’t think they’re all the same.

121 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:51:29pm

re: #108 EPR-radar

Not so hollow. The use of nukes by the US in Japan is much easier to justify than the US letting a client state run amok with chemical weapons just because they were fighting Iran at the time.

Now you are quibbling. Let’s call it a pilpul and leave it at that.

122 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:52:13pm

re: #87 Political Atheist

That does not reduce the ways these two things are not the same. If anything, you help my point.

I guess I’m not exactly clear on what your point was. OK, the two things are not the same, except inasmuch as they are because of the then often cited claims of proof that Saddam had used chemical weapons in the past. It was that he’d used them with our approval and assistance that wasn’t officially acknowledged until last week.

I’m just wondering where we find the moral high ground to invade a second country for a crime we’ve admitted being co-conspirator to in the not too distant past? More than that though I’m looking for some kind of positive outcome from our intervention, or for that matter lack of intervention. From where I sit there’s no good play, all options suck. The best thing then is to take the money we would have spent creating a new brand of suck in Syria and using it to do something good here at home.

123 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:54:50pm

Did you know the comment box is resizable?

124 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:54:55pm

re: #105 Political Atheist

When my President says there can be no doubt, I’m in. Obama is no Bush. Pending better evidence I believe him.

There are always doubts. It’s always good to look at the evidence critically and objectively. The key here is that WMD have been used. That much is certain. Who used them is an important determining factor in what course of action needs to be taken.

I’m supportive of the idea of going after Assad - 100k+ killed speaks to his need to eliminate enemies and is democide. That has to be addressed by the international community.

125 darthstar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:56:01pm

re: #123 b_sharp

Did you know the comment box is resizable?

I thought those were a couple of lost sarc tags lying in the corner.

126 Amory Blaine  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:56:19pm

Our inability to decouple corporate interests from our own is enough to give me a god damn shitty feeling about this. Why the fucking hurry? Jesus Christ is it too much to ask to wait until all the evidence is in? Pressure is building, maybe Russia will concede some leverage. His has ties to the Christian church and they have to be concerned about the Christians in Syria.

127 bratwurst  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:57:02pm

This is pretty much the state of the racial conversation today on the right side of the political spectrum:

Image: fox_march.png

128 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 6:59:09pm

re: #109 ProTARDISLiberal

Not to mention that the the main members of the Intervention force (US, UK, and France) had all suffered from Qaddafi’s shit.

Whether it be Pan Am Flight 103, UTA Flight 772, or the Troubles that have scarred the UK so badly.

I am much more ambivalent about Syria because of how splintered everything is.

If there were an organized, moderate force, I would be more for it.

But right now, I would only be for hitting Assad if we also struck the more radical elements among the rebels.

On a philosophical level, I agree. But Assad owns very expensive and obvious targets that are kept under lock and key away from the civilian population. The more radical elements among the rebels are liberally dispersed among that same civilian population, weevils in the wheat. Can’t be done.

129 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:00:07pm

I think there’s a role for the Hippocratic Oath in foreign policy, specifically “first do no harm.” Sometimes all you can do for a patient is provide palliative care, I guess in this context that means providing for the refugees until the Syrian situation either resolves or catastrophically devolves. Other than that I don’t see any options likely to do more good than bad.

130 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:00:24pm

re: #127 bratwurst

This is pretty much the state of the racial conversation today on the right side of the political spectrum:

Image: fox_march.png

Actually, this bit of obnoxious stupidity looks a bit above average to me. Most Fox News/GOP attempts to cope with race are more offensive than this.

131 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:01:08pm

Conspiracy theories are everywhere.

From a comment on an Amazon review of a frigging thermostat, for crying out loud, by a user with the name “Live Free or Die”:

But with all this talk about security no one seems to have mentioned the issue that the Nest sends all your electricity usage to their servers.

Giving away your energy consumption numbers only enables third parties like the power company and the government to start drafting/implementing rules around energy usage per household. Stay away from this! (Don’t believe me? Search for “PG&E and smart-meters”)

132 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:01:44pm

re: #125 darthstar

I thought those were a couple of lost sarc tags lying in the corner.

Prolly mine.

133 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:02:48pm

BC women want to be able to go topless.

People are losing their heads over it.

134 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:02:55pm

re: #128 austin_blue

Then I’m mildly against this.

Have you heard what the fanatics have said what they will do to the Christians and Alawites?

We can’t afford to have Assad or the Radical Fanatics to win.

135 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:03:17pm

re: #105 Political Atheist

When my President says there can be no doubt, I’m in. Obama is no Bush. Pending better evidence I believe him.

Been lied to by a whole bunch of presidents, including most of those I’ve voted for. Distrust is the default.

136 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:05:59pm

re: #134 ProTARDISLiberal

Then I’m mildly against this.

Have you heard what the fanatics have said what they will do to the Christians and Alawites?

We can’t afford to have Assad or the Radical Fanatics to win.

Unfortunately Voltron is unavailable and Professor X doesn’t exist.

137 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:06:38pm

As you can tell, I have nothing to contribute to the Syria conversation.

I think the choice is between American Interventionism and American Isolationism, both losing propositions.

This is an unenviable lose - lose situation for the US.

138 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:06:54pm

re: #102 Gus

Just like I predicted. No principles. A war rages in Syria for 2.5 years and silence. No organized protests. Finally, the USA might intervene? They organize. It’s not an anti-war movement. It’s an anti-US-war movement.

Somehow I doubt they’ll rush to the warzone as voluntary human shields like they did for Saddam. Who says idiots can’t learn?

139 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:07:58pm

I have to plan my menu for the holidays.

Since there are only two of us, I can’t make a whole bunch of pie! So I have to choose carefully, stuff that will freeze well.

Kugelhopf with rum-soaked fruits, that’s a no brainer.

Apple strudel or apple pie?

Honey saffron cake? (Recipe looks sooooo delicious!) I think I will bake it in cupcake pans.

140 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:08:47pm

re: #139 Vicious Babushka

I have to plan my menu for the holidays.

Since there are only two of us, I can’t make a whole bunch of pie! So I have to choose carefully, stuff that will freeze well.

Kugelhopf with rum-soaked fruits, that’s a no brainer.

Apple strudel or apple pie?

Honey saffron cake? (Recipe looks sooooo delicious!) I think I will bake it in cupcake pans.

CHOCOLATE!!!!

or Key Lime

141 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:09:17pm

re: #1 Charles Johnson

I don’t know, maybe it’s an emotional reaction after getting played so badly with the Iraq War, but I just have a bad feeling about this, despite the rational arguments.

How could you not have a bad feeling about a situation with no good options?

142 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:09:29pm

re: #139 Vicious Babushka

I have to plan my menu for the holidays.

Since there are only two of us, I can’t make a whole bunch of pie! So I have to choose carefully, stuff that will freeze well.

Kugelhopf with rum-soaked fruits, that’s a no brainer.

Apple strudel or apple pie?

Honey saffron cake? (Recipe looks sooooo delicious!) I think I will bake it in cupcake pans.

I will email you my address. Send the surplus here.

143 bratwurst  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:09:45pm

re: #130 EPR-radar

Actually, this bit of obnoxious stupidity looks a bit above average to me. Most Fox News/GOP attempts to cope with race are more offensive than this.

You are 100% correct. Compared to their treatment of the Zimmerman trial and now the Lane murder in Oklahoma, complaining about rap music on the 50th anniversary of the march on Washington is pretty harmless.

144 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:11:21pm

re: #116 lawhawk

It is possible that they didn’t know what they were firing, though that possibility is undermined by the fact that the rebels include some who were formerly in the regular Syrian military (though how much exposure they had to WMD training is suspect).

With glass warheads full of liquid? C’mon. And if they knew what they had, wouldn’t they shoot the Presidential Palace and the Defense Ministry? The Alawite Government has killed 100,000 of their family and friends. Tribes, sects, and blood makes for an old but reliable result.

145 aagcobb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:12:23pm

re: #133 b_sharp

BC women want to be able to go topless.

People are losing their heads over it.

I enthusiastically endorse a woman’s right to go topless. Who am I, an old white man, to deny them their rights? Go for it ladies, I’m in your corner!

146 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:12:33pm

re: #136 goddamnedfrank

Unfortunately Voltron is unavailable and Professor X doesn’t exist.

And moreover, the fictional Voltrons would be useless against the asymmetric type of warfare Al Qaeda wages. We face an enemy that plants IEDs and stages ambushes, not one that attacks with heavy forces. Destroying such a force is the work of years and right now there isn’t the desire anywhere in America to make that kind of commitment.

147 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:14:01pm

re: #145 aagcobb

I enthusiastically endorse a woman’s right to go topless. Who am I, an old white man, to deny them their rights? Go for it ladies, I’m in your corner!

Put your pants back on.

148 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:14:07pm

re: #145 aagcobb

I enthusiastically endorse a woman’s right to go topless. Who am I, an old white man, to deny them their rights? Go for it ladies, I’m in your corner!

Camera and eyes at the ready.

149 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:14:14pm

re: #139 Vicious Babushka

I have to plan my menu for the holidays.

Since there are only two of us, I can’t make a whole bunch of pie! So I have to choose carefully, stuff that will freeze well.

Kugelhopf with rum-soaked fruits, that’s a no brainer.

Apple strudel or apple pie?

Honey saffron cake? (Recipe looks sooooo delicious!) I think I will bake it in cupcake pans.

STRUDEL. and then send me some.

150 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:14:45pm

re: #145 aagcobb

I enthusiastically endorse a woman’s right to go topless. Who am I, an old white man, to deny them their rights? Go for it ladies, I’m in your corner!

Our new GIs in Italy were mad about the liberal dress standards. Usually lasted until they made it to the beach at Lido.

151 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:15:56pm

re: #149 klys

STRUDEL. and then send me some.

Cookies. Lot and lots and lots of cookies. (I have also lost time to the cookie clicker game)

152 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:16:22pm

re: #147 Dark_Falcon

Put your pants back on.

I’m fairly certain there were some implicit sarc tags there.

But even so, sometimes humans make decisions from sexual places, and I’m ok with that. As long as they’re willing to support equality to go with it, who am I to question their motives? I enjoy a nice guy with long hair when I see one on the street.

153 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:16:28pm

re: #134 ProTARDISLiberal

Then I’m mildly against this.

Have you heard what the fanatics have said what they will do to the Christians and Alawites?

We can’t afford to have Assad or the Radical Fanatics to win.

Then we’re snookered and can’t do anything?

“You can’t get off and you can’t stand still
If the thunder don’t get ya then the lightning will.”

154 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:17:24pm

OK. Figured it out. Homo sapiens. Breaking: humans are still a bunch of dumb asses.

155 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:17:33pm

re: #151 EPR-radar

Cookies. Lot and lots and lots of cookies. (I have also lost time to the cookie clicker game)

IT’S STILL GOING.

They updated and now I have 52/54 upgrades and 61/67 achievements. Damn them, I just wanted to find the last two upgrades when it was at 42…

156 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:17:48pm

re: #154 Gus

OK. Figured it out. Homo sapiens. Breaking: humans are still a bunch of dumb asses apes.

FTFY.

157 Charles Johnson  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:18:00pm
158 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:18:09pm

re: #153 austin_blue

Aside giving aid to refugees and trying to open the immigration system to accept more refugees?

No. I want a plan to strike at these fanatics as well. Drones, if we have to.

159 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:18:16pm

re: #154 Gus

OK. Figured it out. Homo sapiens. Breaking: humans are still a bunch of dumb asses.

Humanity is a bully asking “Why can’t you stop punching yourself?” except the twist is it’s actually himself that he’s asking.

160 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:18:18pm

Animals. That’s why we respond to kittens, Cute Emergency. We have a fatal flaw in our evolution.

161 EPR-radar  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:18:44pm

re: #155 klys

IT’S STILL GOING.

They updated and now I have 52/54 upgrades and 61/67 achievements. Damn them, I just wanted to find the last two upgrades when it was at 42…

That’s what putting it on the home computer to run unattended all day (and night) is for.

162 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:19:07pm

re: #160 Gus

Animals. That’s why we respond to kittens, Cute Emergency. We have a fatal flaw in our evolution.

Kitten!

163 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:19:24pm

re: #151 EPR-radar

Cookies. Lot and lots and lots of cookies. (I have also lost time to the cookie clicker game)

I just baked 5 dozen chocolate chip cookies. Because I came home from work tired and crabby and I’m all like ME WANT COOKIES!!!

164 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:19:38pm

re: #161 EPR-radar

That’s what putting it on the home computer to run unattended all day (and night) is for.

It’s been going …and going… and going… but hey, the house temperature is 72 degrees now!

165 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:20:15pm

re: #162 klys

Kitten!

Also I will totally abuse the hell out of this photo because it is one of the awesomest photos I have ever taken.

166 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:20:25pm

re: #162 klys

Kitten!

I’d keep my distance.

167 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:20:36pm

Also too, posting all that derp on the RageDerpgasm thread made me want to eat a bunch of cookies.

168 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:20:38pm

Kitten! Snooo!

169 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:21:12pm

re: #152 klys

I’m fairly certain there were some implicit sarc tags there.

But even so, sometimes humans make decisions from sexual places, and I’m ok with that. As long as they’re willing to support equality to go with it, who am I to question their motives? I enjoy a nice guy with long hair when I see one on the street.

I find the argument against it that kids will see boobs hilarious.

Those kids will grow up thinking going topless on a hot day completely normal for both genders.

170 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:21:31pm

re: #154 Gus

OK. Figured it out. Homo sapiens. Breaking: humans are still a bunch of dumb asses.

Fucking ook ook.

171 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:21:53pm

re: #166 Gus

I’d keep my distance.

We just stopped. At least until it passed into the grass again. And then my husband got photos of kitten butt, which I have to say is rather familiar.

172 Quicklund  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:23:43pm

I think that’s the most thoughtful and persuasive essay I’ve read yet on the Syria conundrum. I have to say it’s helped me get off the fence on at least a couple respects.

However the way things go forward still matter. The best course of action IMO is still to pursue all international avenues toward consensus-building before the fisrt Tomahawk leaves the launch tube.

173 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:23:44pm

re: #167 Vicious Babushka

Also too, posting all that derp on the RageDerpgasm thread made me want to eat a bunch of cookies.

Can I ask without sounding critical - why do people use both ‘also’ and ‘too’ together? Isn’t it a bit redundant?

174 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:24:12pm

re: #173 b_sharp

Can I ask without sounding critical - why do people use both ‘also’ and ‘too’ together? Isn’t it a bit redundant?

It’s a Wonketteism. I haven’t seen it anywhere else.

175 AlexRogan  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:24:16pm

re: #103 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

Saul got there ahead of them.

If Saul’s good enough for Walter White, he’s good enough for Lil’ Kim.

/better call Saul!

176 Amory Blaine  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:24:36pm

re: #162 klys

That would make a cool avatar.

177 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:25:22pm

re: #171 klys

We just stopped. At least until it passed into the grass again. And then my husband got photos of kitten butt, which I have to say is rather familiar.

I walked up to this big old snarly street cat in the alleyway once. Went out to pit him. He bit/knawed my hand and left. Almost bit me. Just a regular old street cat.

178 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:25:32pm

re: #173 b_sharp

Can I ask without sounding critical - why do people use both ‘also’ and ‘too’ together? Isn’t it a bit redundant?

re: #174 Vicious Babushka

It’s a Wonketteism. I haven’t seen it anywhere else.

Giving props for an honest question and a straightforward answer without taking offense, because that happens all too rarely on the Internet.

Also, Mythbusters reminds me is that you want to have a windowbreaker somewhere in your car. It’s just good practice, whether for you because your car ends up upside down in the water, or for someone else because the limo is on fire and they are trapped.

179 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:25:58pm

re: #174 Vicious Babushka

It’s a Wonketteism. I haven’t seen it anywhere else.

In 1985 I had a friend from Vancouver do the same thing. I had no idea why.

180 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:26:35pm

re: #176 Amory Blaine

That would make a cool avatar.

I actually have to dig out the addresses to send it on to a few other folks including someone in the NPS; they want to use it on the Facebook and in programs (with appropriate credit).

It was just one of the most amazingly lucky shots I’ve ever taken. I’m just glad the camera was out and on and in reasonable settings for the environment.

181 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:27:40pm

It’s not really bug-spray but people-spray. My DNA however is 48% fruit fly.

182 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:27:54pm

re: #158 ProTARDISLiberal

Aside giving aid to refugees and trying to open the immigration system to accept more refugees?

No. I want a plan to strike at these fanatics as well. Drones, if we have to.

It used to be so easy to deal with fanatics. You’d hire Two Guys Named Vinnie out of Bayonne to deal with it.

Drones have been used almost entirely in the two ‘stans and Yemen. They have proven to be entirely satisfactory militarily and disastrous politically.

And I’m not vouching for that spelling. Way to many -ly endings.

183 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:27:57pm

re: #177 Gus

I walked up to this big old snarly street cat in the alleyway once. Went out to pit him. He bit/knawed my hand and left. Almost bit me. Just a regular old street cat.

I admit, I do approach strange cats regularly. I’m also careful in how I do it, always giving them control over the last bit of the approach and not forcing contact.

Given how some of my cats react to strangers, I’ve learned.

184 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:28:55pm

re: #181 Gus

It’s not really bug-spray but people-spray. My DNA however is 48% fruit fly.

Probably more like 60%.

185 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:30:03pm

re: #184 b_sharp

Probably more like 60%.

I’m also part Popeye.

186 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:30:23pm

re: #185 Gus

I’m also part Popeye.

/offers spinach

187 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:31:30pm

re: #181 Gus

It’s not really bug-spray but people-spray. My DNA however is 48% fruit fly.

Time flies like arrows. Fruit flies like bananas.

188 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:32:24pm

re: #187 austin_blue

Time flies like arrows. Fruit flies like bananas.

I grant plus 1000 for that. Because I laughed.

What that says about me, I’m not sure.

189 aagcobb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:32:38pm

re: #150 Decatur Deb

Our new GIs in Italy were mad about the liberal dress standards. Usually lasted until they made it to the beach at Lido.

I would totally have attended this parade to show the ladies my support for their rights. I wouldn’t have put a bra on though.

190 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:33:26pm

re: #183 klys

I admit, I do approach strange cats regularly. I’m also careful in how I do it, always giving them control over the last bit of the approach and not forcing contact.

Given how some of my cats react to strangers, I’ve learned.

I used to have an adorable little black cat who would go absolutely nuts and attack without much warning. We eventually had to completely declaw her so I could handle her without having my hands shredded.

Most of the time she was the most dedicated and affectionate cat I’ve ever known. Unfortunately cancer took her life a few years ago.

191 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:33:42pm

re: #189 aagcobb

I would totally have attended this parade to show the ladies my support for their rights. I wouldn’t have put a bra on though.

I’m sure we could have found you a bra equally as uncomfortable as some of what women are supposed to wear in the name of fashion.

192 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:34:20pm

re: #135 Decatur Deb

Been lied to by a whole bunch of presidents, including most of those I’ve voted for. Distrust is the default.

Fair point well taken. But to support my attitude in the matter, I am trusting him on the ACA. I’m trusting him (for good reason I hope) on the economic moves like QE and opposing the sequester, and not wanting a shutdown.

Nixon, Clinton, GWB… they lied like hell. This guy though this young Senator that stepped up in the thorniest mess in my lifetime.. This guy I believe. Call me crazy.

193 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:34:49pm

re: #187 austin_blue

Time flies like arrows. Fruit flies like bananas.

Hey I was trying to find some reference to continental spraying of chemical or biological agents by SAC. Thought I read about one practice run.

194 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:35:20pm

re: #190 b_sharp

I used to have an adorable little black cat who would go absolutely nuts and attack without much warning. We eventually had to completely declaw her so I could handle her without having my hands shredded.

Most of the time she was the most dedicated and affectionate cat I’ve ever known. Unfortunately cancer took her life a few years ago.

Cats are wonderful, incredible, distinct members of our families. Just like other pets. The current three bring me up to four that I have lived with and I dread the day I say goodbye to any of them, but they’re totally worth it.

/hugs for the loss, because I know I still miss Coco.

195 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:35:38pm

re: #188 klys

I grant plus 1000 for that. Because I laughed.

What that says about me, I’m not sure.

Most of my jokes are based on amphiboly like that.

196 aagcobb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:35:55pm

re: #191 klys

I’m sure we could have found you a bra equally as uncomfortable as some of what women are supposed to wear in the name of fashion.

Yeah, I’m all for women going braless as well. I don’t go topless outside very often myself, since I’m a fat old man with man-boobs, and it just isn’t a pretty sight.

197 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:37:03pm

re: #194 klys

Cats are wonderful, incredible, distinct members of our families. Just like other pets. The current three bring me up to four that I have lived with and I dread the day I say goodbye to any of them, but they’re totally worth it.

/hugs for the loss, because I know I still miss Coco.

My daughter had her cat for 22 years. It really tore her apart when she died.

198 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:37:26pm

re: #182 austin_blue

Guess what?

I don’t care how they look politically. I care about results, and I would point out that the droning resembles the swift crackdown by Mehmet II and Mehmet Ali Pasha against the Wahhabis and Salafists in the 1810s and 1820s.

199 aagcobb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:38:08pm

re: #192 Political Atheist

Fair point well taken. But to support my attitude in the matter, I am trusting him on the ACA. I’m trusting him (for good reason I hope) on the economic moves like QE and opposing the sequester, and not wanting a shutdown.

Nixon, Clinton, GWB… they lied like hell. This guy though this young Senator that stepped up in the thorniest mess in my lifetime.. This guy I believe. Call me crazy.

I don’t think you are crazy. Why on earth would the President want to wade into this mess in Syria? He has no reason I can think of to invent an excuse for intervention.

200 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:38:47pm

Why do I keep getting ads for the ‘Be Naughty’ dating site?

Is somebody trying to tell me something?

201 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:39:41pm

re: #197 b_sharp

My daughter had her cat for 22 years. It really tore her apart when she died.

One of the sweetest things my husband has ever done for me was allowing the box with Coco’s ashes to be engraved with my last name instead of his, since she and I had bonded so much in just 2 short years.

202 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:39:47pm

re: #198 ProTARDISLiberal

Please stop comparing US actions to war crimes and atrocities.

203 Decatur Deb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:41:07pm

‘Nite, all.

204 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:42:27pm

Statement on Chemical and Biological Defense Policies and Programs

The “Statement on Chemical and Biological Defense Policies and Programs” was a speech delivered on November 25, 1969, by U.S. President Richard Nixon. In the speech, Nixon announced the end of the U.S. offensive biological weapons program and reaffirmed a no-first-use policy for chemical weapons. The statement excluded toxins, herbicides and riot-control agents, though herbicides and toxins were both later banned. The decision to ban biological weapons was influenced by a number of domestic and international issues.

205 aagcobb  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:43:34pm

re: #200 b_sharp

Why do I keep getting ads for the ‘Be Naughty’ dating site?

Is somebody trying to tell me something?

What websites have you been visiting?

206 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:44:07pm

re: #199 aagcobb

I don’t think you are crazy. Why on earth would the President want to wade into this mess in Syria? He has no reason I can think of to invent an excuse for intervention.

Politics, Money, Power —life after the White House —who knows why politicians do anything.

It’s never a direct route. IN the end, I think most just hope they do more good than harm.

207 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:46:05pm

re: #205 aagcobb

What websites have you been visiting?

No dating sites.

208 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:46:45pm

re: #202 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut

It stopped the nutcases for the next century and a half, and was in response to similar ones done by the Saudis in much greater amounts.

War is not pretty. Look at WWII, and the lengths we went to to win. Firebombing of most of Germany and Japan, and the only wartime uses of Nuclear Weapons.

When the other side won’t negotiate, and only knows violence, what then, hmm? The fanatics don’t listen to reason. It’s the same as 200 years ago. Hell, it’s the same groups as two hundred years ago, just regenerated.

If moderates lie down and roll over, we are screwed.

209 Gus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:47:02pm

Syria. Undecided. Can I have some ketchup please?

210 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:47:30pm

re: #198 ProTARDISLiberal

Guess what?

I don’t care how they look politically. I care about results, and I would point out that the droning resembles the swift crackdown by Mehmet II and Mehmet Ali Pasha against the Wahhabis and Salafists in the 1810s and 1820s.

A slightly less crude weapon does not a precision weapon make.

Oh, and the Saudi Arabia extant displays the efficacy of that crackdown.

Just sayin’.

211 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:47:43pm

re: #209 Gus

Syria. Undecided. Can I have some ketchup please?

No, but I have some sliced pickles in the fridge.

212 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:49:35pm

re: #209 Gus

Syria. Undecided. Can I have some ketchup please?

You want the John Heinz Kerry?

213 ProTARDISLiberal  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:50:35pm

re: #210 austin_blue

It took the Saudis over 100 years to recover. They wouldn’t become a chronic pain in the ass outside of the Arabian Peninsula until the 70’s.

160 Years later. Half a century after the end of the Ottoman Empire.

214 calochortus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:52:16pm

re: #131 klys

Conspiracy theories are everywhere.

From a comment on an Amazon review of a frigging thermostat, for crying out loud, by a user with the name “Live Free or Die”:

I thought PG&E’s smartmeters were supposed to give us cancer, or get us abducted by aliens.

215 Eclectic Cyborg  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:56:15pm

re: #214 calochortus

I thought PG&E’s smartmeters were supposed to give us cancer, or get us abducted by aliens.

I’ve heard they can also impose sharia law on your house and confiscate all your guns. Oh and their monitoring team is entirely comprised of gay people.

216 b_sharp  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:57:08pm

Goodnight slimy ones.

217 austin_blue  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:58:17pm

re: #213 ProTARDISLiberal

It took the Saudis over 100 years to recover. They wouldn’t become a chronic pain in the ass outside of the Arabian Peninsula until the 70’s.

160 Years later. Half a century after the end of the Ottoman Empire.

Technology changes time frames.

218 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 7:58:53pm

re: #214 calochortus

I thought PG&E’s smartmeters were supposed to give us cancer, or get us abducted by aliens.

They can have my cancer/aliens in exchange for my AC.

On another OT note, any Bay Area lizards going to the Pleasanton Highland Games this weekend?

219 calochortus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:01:30pm

re: #215 Eclectic Cyborg

I’ve heard they can also impose sharia law on your house and confiscate all your guns. Oh and their monitoring team is entirely comprised of gay people.

OMG! OMG! OMG! (Runs in tighter and tighter circles while hyperventilating.)

220 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:02:13pm

re: #174 Vicious Babushka

It’s a Wonketteism. I haven’t seen it anywhere else.

It’s a jibe at Sarah Palin.

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

221 calochortus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:02:42pm

re: #218 klys

Not going to the Highland Games, but I’m very happy to hear you’re enjoying your AC. We seem to be making do pretty well with a big exhaust fan every evening here.

222 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:09:51pm

Of course…


One of the other ones is 18. It’s just a few kids creating havoc on the Internet.

223 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:10:39pm

For those following the Rim Fire, here’s a photo from the entrance to Mariposa Grove, which is the only grove of sequoias in Yosemite not currently closed due to the fire.

And for shits and giggles (since I was going through photos looking for that), why I prayed there was never an earthquake during sample prep.

224 calochortus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:11:52pm

re: #223 klys

What could possibly go wrong?

225 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:13:05pm

re: #224 calochortus

What could possibly go wrong?

Thanks to grad school, I now possess a pair of optical pyrometers, calibrated roughly in Celsius.

226 Political Atheist  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:14:51pm

re: #199 aagcobb

I don’t think you are crazy. Why on earth would the President want to wade into this mess in Syria? He has no reason I can think of to invent an excuse for intervention.

Thanks. Zactly.

227 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:16:45pm

Hmm. Pair of yellow eyes watching me from across the room. Totally black cat sitting in front of a turned-off big screen TV.

228 calochortus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:18:57pm

re: #225 klys

Thanks to grad school, I now possess a pair of optical pyrometers, calibrated roughly in Celsius.

Perfect for the home cook!

229 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:19:12pm
230 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:19:37pm

re: #228 calochortus

Perfect for the home cook!

You know, if it gets to the range my pyrometers are calibrated to, I start freaking the shit out and calling the fire department.

231 klys  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:20:24pm

re: #230 klys

You know, if it gets to the range my pyrometers are calibrated to, I start freaking the shit out and calling the fire department.

On the plus side, 500 degrees Fahrenheit is not nearly as intimidating a temperature on recipes anymore.

232 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:21:09pm

re: #198 ProTARDISLiberal

And their actions were atrocities of a kind that the US no longer engages in and rightly so, I echo Obdicut in insisting that you stop bring the 19th Century suppression of the Wahabis up as a good thing. It’s the same thing as calling for “a Pinochet Solution”.

233 calochortus  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:21:43pm

re: #231 klys

On the plus side, 500 degrees Fahrenheit is not nearly as intimidating a temperature on recipes anymore.

I would imagine not.

234 BongCrodny  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 8:27:39pm

re: #188 klys

I grant plus 1000 for that. Because I laughed.

What that says about me, I’m not sure.

It says you should probably watch more Marx Bros. movies.

235 Ming  Wed, Aug 28, 2013 9:18:22pm

re: #2 Political Atheist

I have a question for our officials or the President-Is there no way out of this thing short of hostilities? Somehow we restrained ourselves before, and when North Korea detonated a nuke in concert with a long range missile program. Not a single shot was fired.

I’m afraid the lesson of North Korea may be that once you have nukes, the likelihood of American attack goes way down. Or, it could be their relationship with China, or their proximity to South Korea and Japan.

On the other hand, I believe that Israel’s 2007 surgical strike on that nuclear plant in Syria was an unqualified success. So there may be a case for SOME surgical strikes. But I think that standard should be quite restrictive.

236 benf_dc  Thu, Aug 29, 2013 12:08:35am

The US cannot accomplish anything useful in Syria by force of arms. The notion that we have to strike Syria in order to bolster our (demonstrably nonexistent) deterrence directed against the Iranian nuclear program is game theoretical masturbation.

The only move that makes any sense to me whatsoever is to very forcefully strike the Iranian Republican Guards. If the Iranians pull back, there might conceivably be some hope of a negotiated political solution in Syria. And if it doesn’t improve matters in Syria, so what? We will have shaken up the Iranian regime, and we will regain some modicum of respect in the region.

237 SchadenBoner  Thu, Aug 29, 2013 8:31:41am

re: #111 austin_blue

And got the short-range missile systems to shoot them into the neighborhood.

Anyone who thinks the rebels gassed their own families is wearing a tin foil hat. I’m betting on #2. His sect is 5% of the population. Lots of factions in his military.

I’m not sure what’s tinfoil about the idea. The rebels didn’t “gas their own families”. Some faction of the rebel “coalition” (a misnomer if there’s ever been one) gassed the families of some other faction. Presumably a faction they didn’t like very much. Maybe.

I’m not saying that’s what happened, I am however saying that it’s not tinfoil to suggest such a possibility.

Assad is a bastard, no doubt, but “Ruler x is a bastard, we gotta do something!” is Iraq-thinking. Until it is very clear what the post-Assad situation looks like I can’t comprehend why involving ourselves in this is a good idea. Regrettably, in the world that we have “Least-bad” is usually equivalent to “best”. And Assad may be the least-bad ruler of Syria among the options.

I have no desire to see an Al Q state sharing borders with Israel, I have no desire to see whatever chemical stockpiles fall into the hands of the motley crew of Islamists who take over Syria after Assad get dumped into the headwaters of the Jordan River.


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