Pages

 

Recent Pages by Charles (Charles Johnson):
The Conservative Plan to Take Over the Country (You Need to Know About This) Techdirt: Hey Elon: The ADL Convincing Advertisers to Run Away From Your Site Is Part of the Free Speech You Pretend to Support Elon Musk Commandeers '@Music' Handle From User With Half a Million Followers ChatGPT Is a Data Privacy Nightmare, and We Ought to Be Concerned Ex-Lawmaker Who Served Time for Jan. 6 Riot Seeks House Seat

Jump to bottom

26 comments

1 KernelPanic  Apr 21, 2011 2:57:16pm

Semantic word games.

The unencrypted file stored on my iphone (and on the macbook pro I sync it to) contained extremely high resolution data showing effectively everywhere I’ve been for the last 8 months or so. The data is accurate enough (in my case at least) to put me at specific street locations and business addresses.

This is a huge deal that has yet to be adequately explained. None of the engineering, quality assurance or “recover stolen phone” explanations cover why the accumulated data is kept over time.

Anyone with an iphone who does not think this is a big deal should download the free app and examine their own data. What it pulled from my phone was pretty significant.

That said I’m not all up in arms about it. I just want a coherent explanation - there does not seem to be a valid reason other than “our developers screwed up and forgot to clean up some devtools & files”.

2 Randall Gross  Apr 21, 2011 2:57:40pm

Something all phones do. They need to know if they are roaming, at their “home” cell etc. etc. etc.

3 KernelPanic  Apr 21, 2011 3:00:07pm

re: #2 Thanos

Something all phones do. They need to know if they are roaming, at their “home” cell etc. etc. etc.

The phones that do this do not store aggregated data forever in an unencrypted sqllite database file. That sort of optimization behavior is built into the low level radio functions of the device itself. The only people claiming this has anything to do with roaming or cellular tower optimization do not work for Apple.

4 Rightwingconspirator  Apr 21, 2011 3:30:42pm

re: #2 Thanos

Something all phones do. They need to know if they are roaming, at their “home” cell etc. etc. etc.


I disagree.
Why would my phone need to know where I used to be? Seems to me all it needs is where I am and maybe where I’m going cell tower wise.

5 Rightwingconspirator  Apr 21, 2011 3:32:51pm

These are the death gasps of privacy in the wild west era of the internet. What will be left before privacy is restored? This page seems relevant too.

6 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2011 3:33:30pm

re: #1 KernelPanic

Semantic word games.

The unencrypted file stored on my iphone (and on the macbook pro I sync it to) contained extremely high resolution data showing effectively everywhere I’ve been for the last 8 months or so. The data is accurate enough (in my case at least) to put me at specific street locations and business addresses.

This is a huge deal that has yet to be adequately explained. None of the engineering, quality assurance or “recover stolen phone” explanations cover why the accumulated data is kept over time.

Anyone with an iphone who does not think this is a big deal should download the free app and examine their own data. What it pulled from my phone was pretty significant.

That said I’m not all up in arms about it. I just want a coherent explanation - there does not seem to be a valid reason other than “our developers screwed up and forgot to clean up some devtools & files”.

I’ve examined my data, and while it shows a very general picture of where I’ve been, it could not be used to track my movements with accuracy at all. Sometimes the cell towers are miles away from where I was.

This is not even close to the accuracy of GPS data. I’m not saying there are NO privacy issues, but it’s very clear that this is not some nefarious plot to monitor people’s movements.

7 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2011 3:35:49pm

re: #1 KernelPanic

The data is accurate enough (in my case at least) to put me at specific street locations and business addresses.

Sorry, that’s not possible, unless the cell tower is on top of the building you were in. It’s not recording that information. It only records cell towers.

8 APox  Apr 21, 2011 3:36:33pm

I believe a GSM tower has about an 8 mile or so radius before it switches, so even if it were just tracking tower connectivity it could be fairly accurate.

And if you switch at the edge of one tower to another tower, that would locate your phone pretty precisely. I’m also assuming that if you have a dropped call / disconnect, the time it takes for that to happen could pretty well locate where you are in relation to the distance from the tower.

I think this article slightly understates what this is able to do.

9 APox  Apr 21, 2011 3:38:34pm

re: #8 APox

I’d also that regardless of whether or not there is “GPS” accuracy or a couple miles of error in locating your phones… It’s a pretty damn big deal. It will still show where you live generally, where you travel, etc… Which I really don’t think anyone has the right to know without your willingness to divulge that information.

10 Rightwingconspirator  Apr 21, 2011 3:41:34pm

re: #7 Charles

Wouldn’t the data triangulate, as in signals from various towers as the network chooses the best one for your phone as it moves? Can you describe the data a bit?

11 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2011 3:42:36pm

re: #9 APox

I’d also that regardless of whether or not there is “GPS” accuracy or a couple miles of error in locating your phones… It’s a pretty damn big deal. It will still show where you live generally, where you travel, etc… Which I really don’t think anyone has the right to know without your willingness to divulge that information.

As I said, yes, there’s a privacy issue here. But it’s been vastly overstated.

I’m also assuming that if you have a dropped call / disconnect, the time it takes for that to happen could pretty well locate where you are in relation to the distance from the tower.

Uh, no. You can’t get that information from the location of one tower. It would have to be triangulated with other tower data.

12 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2011 3:47:52pm

re: #10 Rightwingconspirator

Wouldn’t the data triangulate, as in signals from various towers as the network chooses the best one for your phone as it moves? Can you describe the data a bit?

It’s a record of the cell towers your phone connected to.

Obviously, Apple needs to explain what this file is for (and it should be encrypted, also obviously), but I predict it’s going to end up being completely unrelated to “tracking” anybody.

13 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2011 3:52:05pm

re: #10 Rightwingconspirator

Wouldn’t the data triangulate, as in signals from various towers as the network chooses the best one for your phone as it moves? Can you describe the data a bit?

“Triangulating” means what it sounds like — you have to have information from at least three sources to get a location. Switching from one cell tower to another is not going to triangulate anything.

14 Rightwingconspirator  Apr 21, 2011 3:55:26pm

re: #13 Charles

Okay got it. Thanks. Just a list of towers, not the the signal strength data.

15 APox  Apr 21, 2011 3:55:51pm

I’d have to disagree —

You can pick up on where a phone is located fairly accurately with distance using one tower, the more you have the more accurate it will be. And the way towers are located there is enough overlap that your phone may be picking up on more than just one.

searchengineland.com

… Especially in large metropolitan areas.

16 KernelPanic  Apr 21, 2011 3:56:43pm

re: #7 Charles

Sorry, that’s not possible, unless the cell tower is on top of the building you were in. It’s not recording that information. It only records cell towers.

The GUI map application clearly puts me at individual street-level-resolvable address locations and this is even after the authors admit that they degrade the data a bit from what is in the raw file.

My only guess is that I live/work/travel pretty frequently in some very high tower coverage zones.

17 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2011 3:57:19pm

And another thing — no one has found any evidence that this DB file is being sent anywhere. It apparently lives only on your cell phone, and in the backup made by iTunes.

If you’re concerned about it, the solution is simple: use the encryption features built into iOS and Mac OS.

18 Rightwingconspirator  Apr 21, 2011 3:59:39pm

re: #12 Charles

It’s a record of the cell towers your phone connected to.

Obviously, Apple needs to explain what this file is for (and it should be encrypted, also obviously), but I predict it’s going to end up being completely unrelated to “tracking” anybody.

It’s worth asking Apple what they lose if this data is not kept any longer than what is necessary for functionality. I see no need for a record of yesterdays cell towers to function well today. I suspect they can do without this record existing at all.

19 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2011 4:00:56pm

re: #18 Rightwingconspirator

It’s worth asking Apple what they lose if this data is not kept any longer than what is necessary for functionality. I see no need for a record of yesterdays cell towers to function well today. I suspect they can do without this record existing at all.

Apple software engineers don’t write useless code. I don’t know what it is, but I’m certain that there’s a reason for this file, and it will be unrelated to tracking.

20 APox  Apr 21, 2011 4:07:23pm

Apples response to all of this:

We also collect non-personal information − data in a form that does not permit direct association with any specific individual. We may collect, use, transfer, and disclose non-personal information for any purpose.

Apple then cites several examples:

We may collect information such as occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, location, and the time zone where an Apple product is used so that we can better understand customer behavior and improve our products, services, and advertising.

The company later expounds on location services specifically:

To provide location-based services on Apple products, Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services. For example, we may share geographic location with application providers when you opt in to their location services.


So pretty much it’s in their service agreement — don’t like it, then don’t use it.

More from engadget:

“Problem is, the location data is very personal and hardly anonymous because it’s stored right on your phone — the most personal device we own. The consolidated.db is also replicated (unencrypted by default) to any PC or Mac your iPhone syncs with, and subsequently any additional backup devices you might use (Windows Home Sever, Time Capsule, etc.).

But what’s actually being captured here? Is it really the precise location of the device, i.e., you? No, actually, it’s not. According to “iOS Forensic Analysis for iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch,” written by Sean Morrissey and Alex Levinson, the data collected is the geolocation of the cell towers that the iOS device communicates with. So it’s an approximation of your location. However, the researchers go on to say that, “This data, along with corresponding data from carriers, can link a phone to a specific location on a given date and time.” Levinson concludes, however, that the data is never transmitted to Apple, and is used exclusively by built-in iOS apps like Maps and Camera.”


Pretty interesting article: engadget.com

21 APox  Apr 21, 2011 4:11:11pm

And what a lot of people do say is this:

Every company pretty much does the exact same thing. If you have an Android phone, it tracks what you do. A lot of cookies online track what you do. Privacy is pretty much an illusion in this connected world, not even beginning to get into Facebook and Twitter.

Welcome to the future!

22 Charles Johnson  Apr 21, 2011 4:35:05pm

re: #21 APox

And what a lot of people do say is this:

Every company pretty much does the exact same thing. If you have an Android phone, it tracks what you do. A lot of cookies online track what you do. Privacy is pretty much an illusion in this connected world, not even beginning to get into Facebook and Twitter.

Welcome to the future!

That’s my attitude about this story in a nutshell. It’s a very minor issue. And if it bothers anyone, they already have the tools they need to fix it. iOS now includes hardware encryption.

If you’re concerned about someone stealing your phone and getting access to this DB file, you’re missing the point. There’s going to be a LOT more critical personal information on an iPhone than the locations of the cell towers you accessed.

Use encryption. Problem solved.

23 Buck  Apr 21, 2011 5:40:46pm

Google Android does this in an App called Latitude. I can look at my history on the web in huge detail.

Sure, in this case I turn it on, and can delete it, BUT it does explain why anyone would want it. Marketing and sales apps love this data. I imagine that some day I will be getting coupons automatically from gas stations I might pass often, or stores I am in the vicinity of.

24 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Apr 21, 2011 7:28:52pm

I thought the whole thing with tracking movements of a cell phone is that you’d have to specifically triangulate between multiple cell towers, and that it’s an involved and hands-on process, and you need at least 3 towers’ data simultaneously to narrow it down to anything resembling accuracy, like trying to find something in the dark by the evidence you can feel with your hands

I could be wrong! That’s how it was described to me

25 MichaelJ  Apr 21, 2011 9:42:32pm

Plug in your iOS device. On your computer, select your device in iTunes. Under Options, select Encrypt iPhone Backup. Done.

26 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Apr 22, 2011 3:11:59am

re: #24 WindUpBird

Yes. Triangulation requires the three data points to be for the same time period.

At worst, this will show the general location of where you were. Even when you cross to a new zone and the tower picks you up, you could have crossed at any point along the ‘border’ between those cell tower zones.

The data isn’t granular enough for stalking/tracking/prosecution. it is good for exactly what Apple says— in order to figure out where their customers are using their products. That’s important market data for them. That, of course, leaves the open question of why they’re not getting that data from the device and using it. I dunno.

I don’t like Apple. I don’t like Apple computers, I don’t like their fetishization of shiny things, and I hate their super-sucky environmental practices. But this is largely a nothing story.


This page has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Good Liars at Miami Trump Rally [VIDEO] Jason and Davram talk with Trump supporters about art, Mike Lindell, who is really president and more! SUPPORT US: herohero.co SEE THE GOOD LIARS LIVE!LOS ANGELES, CA squadup.com SUBSCRIBE TO OUR AUDIO PODCAST:Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.comSpotify: open.spotify.comJoin this channel to ...
teleskiguy
3 weeks ago
Views: 823 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0