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1 Destro  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 9:08:13am

Bunkers are so yesterday. Easier to spread out the manufacture in unassuming structures. Then place the WMD missiles on mobile launch platforms.

This is a case of the military fighting yesterday's wars.

Sabotage and sanctions are the true way to fight this new scourge.

2 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 10:50:28am

re: #1 Destro

Iran's facilities linked to its nuclear program are a mixture of underground facilities and distributed facilities, and the problem isn't just in identifying them, but being sure that you got all of them.

It isn't merely going and taking out a single big complex (Osirak in 1981 for instance) or even the Syrian reactor facility in 2007. A mix of conventional weapons can get the job in those cases. But when you do have underground facilities, trying to hit them becomes more difficult, and being sure that you eliminated the target is more difficult still.

This is a cat and mouse game, and Iran's most certainly learned from the Iraqi and Syrian experience.

3 EiMitch  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 11:06:59am

re: #1 Destro

What is this, Ocean's 11: dictatorship edition?

We're not talking about homemade rockets. WMD's require long-range deployment, so that the users don't kill themselves. Even the rockets that fall short of ICBM range require far more logistical support than the ones Hamas attacks Israelis with. This isn't something pick-up trucks can handle. We're talking about semi-trucks at least. If the CIA identifies a single factory, drones and/or satellites can easily follow the trucks to the rest of the operation.

That part about identifying a factory isn't as hard as you think. Spreading those out means hiring more people and spreading them out as well. Do you think that makes it easier to keep them all quiet and discrete? Hell no. The more people are involved, the less you can count on secrecy.

Not to mention, many components take great skill and knowledge to put together right. I mean, what good are WMDs on mobile launch platforms if they fall apart mid-transit? You'll need alot of specialized pros to spread out the manufacturing. If such experts are in short supply, you'll need industrial robotics, and I hope I don't need to elaborate on what that means.

And if we're talking about nuclear WMDs, then forget everything I just said. Even with soviet-era disregard for safety, there is no way it can be done without custom-built infrastructure. You can't hide a nuclear reactor in an old canning plant or anything like that.

I'm a layman. And yet even I can see the logistical nightmare you overlooked.

4 Destro  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 11:47:40am

re: #3 EiMitch

What is this, Ocean's 11: dictatorship edition?

We're not talking about homemade rockets. WMD's require long-range deployment, so that the users don't kill themselves. Even the rockets that fall short of ICBM range require far more logistical support than the ones Hamas attacks Israelis with. This isn't something pick-up trucks can handle. We're talking about semi-trucks at least. If the CIA identifies a single factory, drones and/or satellites can easily follow the trucks to the rest of the operation.

That part about identifying a factory isn't as hard as you think. Spreading those out means hiring more people and spreading them out as well. Do you think that makes it easier to keep them all quiet and discrete? Hell no. The more people are involved, the less you can count on secrecy.

Not to mention, many components take great skill and knowledge to put together right. I mean, what good are WMDs on mobile launch platforms if they fall apart mid-transit? You'll need alot of specialized pros to spread out the manufacturing. If such experts are in short supply, you'll need industrial robotics, and I hope I don't need to elaborate on what that means.

And if we're talking about nuclear WMDs, then forget everything I just said. Even with soviet-era disregard for safety, there is no way it can be done without custom-built infrastructure. You can't hide a nuclear reactor in an old canning plant or anything like that.

I'm a layman. And yet even I can see the logistical nightmare you overlooked.

You know how many scuds the USA destroyed on the ground during the last 2 wars against Iraq? Zero, nada, ziltch.

You know what was the most effective method? Sending special forces on dune buggies to find them and even then they got only a couple.

Secondly, to go in and use these bunker busters means you need to initiate a full scale air attack and sustain it so that the bombers can go in and survive and then go in again and again in cases where they missed.

So that is why I wrote sabotage and sanctions are the true way to fight this new scourge. Anything else is just getting off on war weapons porn.

5 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 12:14:03pm

re: #4 Destro

You know how many scuds the USA destroyed on the ground during the last 2 wars against Iraq? Zero, nada, ziltch.

You know what was the most effective method? Sending special forces on dune buggies to find them and even then they got only a couple.

Secondly, to go in and use these bunker busters means you need to initiate a full scale air attack and sustain it so that the bombers can go in and survive and then go in again and again in cases where they missed.

So that is why I wrote sabotage and sanctions are the true way to fight this new scourge. Anything else is just getting off on war weapons porn.

Ever watch a boxing match? Jabs to the head and body are the way to go, but they only get you so far. Eventually you also need the ability to deliver a knockout punch. That is part of the bunker buster's purpose. In an era of spy satellites, you can be sure that your enemies are placing some of their key infrastructure underground. It helps to have the ability to reach and destroy that key infrastructure.

6 Destro  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 12:49:30pm

re: #5 sliv_the_eli

Ever watch a boxing match? Jabs to the head and body are the way to go, but they only get you so far. Eventually you also need the ability to deliver a knockout punch. That is part of the bunker buster's purpose. In an era of spy satellites, you can be sure that your enemies are placing some of their key infrastructure underground. It helps to have the ability to reach and destroy that key infrastructure.

yes, I watch boxing matches and they do not serve as a lesson for fighting a war.

You sound like you think going to war like the way you are advocating is some sort of cheap adventure? Until we can come up with robot planes that can carry these huge bombs while evading SAMs that ain't the case.

7 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 1:50:12pm

re: #6 Destro

yes, I watch boxing matches and they do not serve as a lesson for fighting a war.

You sound like you think going to war like the way you are advocating is some sort of cheap adventure? Until we can come up with robot planes that can carry these huge bombs while evading SAMs that ain't the case.

Simply a believer in peace through strength. And that means maintaining the full panoply of tools in your toolbox, including diplomatic, military and covert.

8 Destro  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 3:38:56pm

re: #7 sliv_the_eli

Simply a believer in peace through strength. And that means maintaining the full panoply of tools in your toolbox, including diplomatic, military and covert.

No, it seems to me you believe in offensive wars or preventive wars for the maintenance of empire overseas like George Bush did.

9 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 3:49:39pm

You are entitled to your opinion. As usual, it is wrong.re: #8 Destro

You are entitled to your opinion. As usual, it is wrong.

10 EiMitch  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 4:53:23pm

re: #4 Destro

You know how many scuds the USA destroyed on the ground during the last 2 wars against Iraq? Zero, nada, ziltch.

You know what was the most effective method? Sending special forces on dune buggies to find them and even then they got only a couple.

Secondly, to go in and use these bunker busters means you need to initiate a full scale air attack and sustain it so that the bombers can go in and survive and then go in again and again in cases where they missed.

So that is why I wrote sabotage and sanctions are the true way to fight this new scourge. Anything else is just getting off on war weapons porn.

Wow! You knocked that strawman's head clean off.

First of all, you were arguing that rockets appropriate for delivering WMDs could be manufactured in spread-out locations like AK-47s or something. Hiding finished products is much easier than hiding an entire manufacturing process, making your history lesson irrelevant.

Second, I wasn't arguing for or against war. I was simply nit-picking the notion above. It sounded like Michael Bay logic, only with fewer explosions.

And third... ... No, actually thats all.

re: #9 sliv_the_eli

Is there an echo in here? j/k

11 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 7:56:39pm

re: #6 Destro

yes, I watch boxing matches and they do not serve as a lesson for fighting a war.

You sound like you think going to war like the way you are advocating is some sort of cheap adventure? Until we can come up with robot planes that can carry these huge bombs while evading SAMs that ain't the case.

It's called a "strike package", Destro. The B-2s carrying the MOP bombs are only part of it. Other aircraft would be used to destroy Iranian radars and air defense sites. Still others would stand by to intercept any Iranian fighters that got off the ground (though its doubtful if such fighters could even detect a B-2, its best to be sure). All in all, we might lose an aircraft or two, but the bombers would get through, don't doubt that for a minute.

12 Destro  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 10:06:45pm

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

It's called a "strike package", Destro. The B-2s carrying the MOP bombs are only part of it. Other aircraft would be used to destroy Iranian radars and air defense sites. Still others would stand by to intercept any Iranian fighters that got off the ground (though its doubtful if such fighters could even detect a B-2, its best to be sure). All in all, we might lose an aircraft or two, but the bombers would get through, don't doubt that for a minute.

My middle finger to war mongers. War mongers should watch some war porn on the History Channel to compensate for lack of manhood.

13 Destro  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 10:06:54pm

re: #10 EiMitch

My middle finger to war mongers. War mongers should watch some war porn on the History Channel to compensate for lack of manhood.

14 Destro  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 10:07:07pm

re: #9 sliv_the_eli

My middle finger to war mongers. War mongers should watch some war porn on the History Channel to compensate for lack of manhood.

15 Destro  Thu, Jul 26, 2012 10:07:34pm

War worshiping losers......

16 EiMitch  Fri, Jul 27, 2012 1:37:22pm

re: #13 Destro

You didn't even read my post, did you? You just labeled me and flamed away. Whats wrong? Do you equate criticism with opposition?

War worshiping losers...

Irony-d again!

17 Destro  Fri, Jul 27, 2012 1:48:53pm

re: #16 EiMitch

Stop the games. You advocate George Bush like policies for getting at Iran. The bombs away crowd. A computer virus and sanctions did more to slow down Iran's WMD program than any threat of 'death from above'.

The Iranian hardliners would love for the Bush era thinking to come around again and bomb them. Nothing helps a dictatorship than war with a foreign country, that's why Argentina's dictator launched a war over the Falklands when he was losing his grip on power.

18 EiMitch  Fri, Jul 27, 2012 2:50:48pm

re: #17 Destro

Where exactly did I say any such thing? You're just putting words in my mouth.


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