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1 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 6:14:02pm

Pam sux.

So sayeth the Dhimmi Jewicidal Vicious Babushka.

Then there is that JIDF guy on Twitter, who thought he was "Defending Israel On The Internet!" by calling me the c-word. He and Pam should date.

Or maybe not, because they might spawn.

2 researchok  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 6:48:32pm

This isn't about defending Israel.

This is about provocation and self promotion.

3 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 7:22:31pm

I take no issue with it. I think those who refer to the ad as racist are grotesquely overreacting.

4 EiMitch  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 8:51:44pm

re: #3 Eclectic Infidel

So someone must explicitly refer to skin tone or something to officially be bigoted?

This is not "overreacting."

5 bratwurst  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 9:04:42pm

Will Muni be accepting other ads labeling large groups of people as being "savages"?

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 9:23:03pm

re: #4 EiMitch

So someone must explicitly refer to skin tone or something to officially be bigoted?

This is not "overreacting."

I know PAM'S a bigot, so it is hard for me not see her bigotry all over this piece. Looking at what she's actually doing in the ad, what I see is mainly an attempt to surreptitiously conflate something most Americans are in favor of--supporting Israel's right to exist, define and defend herself--with something most Americans should NOT be in favor of--buying into Pam's shrieky rhetoric about international jihad and creeping sharia.

I find it racist because of the deliberate use of the word 'savages', which Pam does not mean, nor does she intend anyone else to interpret, as referring only to people such as Hakim Awad, or the Hamas leadership, who have richly earned the title. Pam's whistling for the dogs of bigotry here. And she routinely implicates all Muslims everywhere in her broadside accusations. I can't look at this without seeing those grubby fingerprints all over it. So there's that as well.

Now, I am going to rant on a separate but related topic. What Pam is doing here is also a perfect example of what people like Mondoweiss and his commenters do. The more respectable anti-Israel blogs are all up on this. They are very careful always (well nearly always) to say "Zionists" and never "Jews", and this fools some people into thinking that they are not bigots, they're just critics of Israel's policies, rather than Israel's existence. This illusion persists even when Weiss is cordial and chummy with the likes of Gilad Atzmon. That's a case when often people who can see right through Pam WILL insist there is no such thing as dogwhistling. (I apologize for being on about Mondoweiss, but I've just read several of his comments threads, and I'm in a bit of a mood.)

7 Locker  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 10:34:23pm

re: #3 Eclectic Infidel

I take no issue with it. I think those who refer to the ad as racist are grotesquely overreacting.

Calling someone a savage may not be racist but it's worse, it's dehumanizing.

8 CriticalDragon1177  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 10:39:30pm

Charles Johnson,

Loon Watch has also covered this story.

[Link: www.loonwatch.com...]

9 CriticalDragon1177  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 10:40:38pm

re: #1 Learned Mother of Zion

Pam sux.

So sayeth the Dhimmi Jewicidal Vicious Babushka.

Then there is that JIDF guy on Twitter, who thought he was "Defending Israel On The Internet!" by calling me the c-word. He and Pam should date.

Or maybe not, because they might spawn.

Sounds like a bigoted jerk if you ask me.

10 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 10:44:27pm

re: #7 Locker

Calling someone a savage may not be racist but it's worse, it's dehumanizing.

Hamas and their ilk deserve to be dehumanized. I will NEVER apologize for taking this stance.

11 CriticalDragon1177  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 10:49:20pm

Charles Johnson,

By they way, in case you didn't notice on the Loon Watch post there's a link to a petition to get these ads removed.

[Link: www.change.org...]

12 cinesimon  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 11:25:13pm

"I will NEVER apologize for taking this stance."
Golly gee, how brave of you. Because everyone has been demanding you apologize. You fight the good fight there, O brave one!
For goodness sake - if you think she's only referring to Hamas, you simply have not been paying attention. Or more likely, do not wish to.
This whole creeping sharia nonsense is that ALL Muslims are the enemy. If they're peaceful, it's stealth jihad,. That is her stance.
Or will you also bravely "not apologize"(WOOT!) for being OK with labeling all Muslims savages? All Palestinians?

13 cinesimon  Tue, Aug 14, 2012 11:28:45pm

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, for sure - anyone who is against Israel's hard right shift is clearly antisemitic. Because truthiness.

14 druid for hire  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 1:36:52am

re: #10 Eclectic Infidel

Hamas and their ilk deserve to be dehumanized. I will NEVER apologize for taking this stance.

take away message? theocratic nationalism sucks (Muslim extremist or hardcore Zionist). there IS a difference between Israel & Jews and making this distinction is not racist. Israel is a government with an army , couple hundred nukes, an extremely effective/deadly intelligence agency and not much tolerance for the people (Palestinians) who live in the territory they occupy (since '67). and of course said occupation is ILLEGAL under international law. i vote we 'dehumanize' the Israeli government for their crimes against humanity.

there is a vibrant peace movement in Israel that decries the atrocities committed against the Palestinian people. the contrast between these compassionate humans and the oppressive actions of their government could not be more pronounced. Israel is not Judaism. Judaism is not Israel.

15 jhrhv  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 4:14:43am

It is wrong and uncivilized. Decent people shouldn't be attached to this kind of hate speech.

Really it shouldn't be allowed at all but I suppose people like Geller are allowed to abuse their right to free speech.

It more closely represents Nazi Germany propaganda than anything else.

16 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 4:41:45am

re: #13 cinesimon

No not because of truthiness.

Because the politics are different here than they are in Israel. Israel's governance, the combination of Netenyahu and Stanley Fischer (who?), have steered Israel through a world economic minefield and brought the country through relatively unscathed by the crash of 2008 and the present European difficulties. They have fostered a culture of rapid innovation, and a blooming of scientific and technological advances that will probably have a very positive effect on the lives of every person on this planet--or could have such an effect. Israel has moved from an emerging economy to a developed economy, not without problems (which can be solved), and are leaders in the fields of alternative energy, planetary paradigm shifts with regards to economic development, clean water, food production in the most environmentally unfriendly conditions, food production in general, and medicine. The country is vital in research and development for new technologies--having branches of Intel (the largest employer), and impressing Warren Buffett enough to invest heavily. This is all from a country that is essentially the size of one large US city.

More often than not the 'shift to the right' is an excuse for people to trot out The Protocols of the Elders of Zion--for its truthiness.

Israel has accomplished all of this, including producing Nobel winners and world class universities, despite a ceaseless existential threat that threatens the country militarily, culturally, and economically.

That is what has been happening in the years that Netenyahu has been both Finance Minister and Prime Minister.

It's been in all the papers, sort of. I don't see how a person could miss it.

One should support Israel because, selfishly, one is going to need an Israeli innovation at some point in their life--and they will be more grateful for this innovation than they are for oil. These reasons are sufficient.

For Jews, there are other reasons to support Israel, and need not concern anyone else, unless anyone else is more interested in spreading the seeds of the Protocols.

17 Aye Pod  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 5:34:49am

re: #16 Bob Levin

More often than not the 'shift to the right' is an excuse for people to trot out The Protocols of the Elders of Zion--for its truthiness.

It's just total extremist whackjobs who do that. Fuck them. There is a whole world of criticism and debate out there that doesn't have any connection with that garbage.

One should support Israel because, selfishly, one is going to need an Israeli innovation at some point in their life--and they will be more grateful for this innovation than they are for oil. These reasons are sufficient.

That's one reason why for many people, both within Israel and outside, supporting Israel means supporting it against the right wing and growing anti-enlightenment forces within Israel. I was alarmed to discover very recently that anti-scientific attitudes - especially creationism - has been gaining ground there especially in the last few years, with the rise of the ultra-orthodox.

[Link: failedmessiah.typepad.com...]

From the article:

Senior haredi rabbis, gedolim, banned books written by Rabbi Nosson (also known as Natan) Slifkin. Rabbi Slifkin was also labeled a heretic by them.

This saga, which began in January 2005 and continues to this day (January 2008), saw haredi gedolim adopt the Creationism of Christian fundamentalists.

18 Aye Pod  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 5:38:51am

re: #7 Locker

Calling someone a savage may not be racist but it's worse, it's dehumanizing.

For Pamela Geller and other such freaks, 'Israel' is just a handy device for killing muslims.

19 Rochi613  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 5:53:07am

I am not a Pam Geller fan, but I'm not sure that the ad is racist. Rather than 'degrading all Muslims,' she is trying to make a distinction between people who act like savages, i.e., do savage things like suicidal bombings in the name of jihad, and those who behave in a civilized way and want to solve disputes in a civilized fashion. The ad asks Americans (perhaps especially Democrats) to take a stark look at Ms. Geller's Israel/Jihad , civilization/savagery dichotomy. But it also addresses the Arab world, requesting that they themselves distinguish between savage behavior and civilized behavior and take a stand for civilized behavior by denouncing violent jihad within the Muslim world and recognizing Israel's legitimacy and permanence. It happens to feel that way from here in Jerusalem. It feels like there are no 'moderate' Muslims fighting violent jihad (or any other name by which it masks itself) simply in the name of civilization, of civilized behavior. The UN is supposed to do this no?. Ha ha. It does not criticize Iran's endless genocidal threats (there's a new one today). And the left? It doesn't stand up for civilization -- it does not berate the Muslim world for the bloody ways it treats its women or the violent ways its leaders steal the people's wealth. Silence is complicity. The left is joined to forces of darkness and chaos because it doesn't stand up for civilized behavior, it is titillated by criticizing and undermining the safe and sane America leftists grew up in, not by a battle for the values that underpin it. Like juveniles, they wouldn't mind tipping it over the edge, just to see how it falls. But here in Israel, we deal with the reality of people who would be characterized as absolutely insane in Western culture and their crazy behavior. It is outside powers that force us to relate to them as normal, just 'culturally different'. Well these culturally different folks savagely blew up 2 members of my family at Cafe Hillel, a father and his daughter having a heart to heart talk over coffee on the eve of her wedding day. I don't think savages is a comment on their race. And I don't think opposing violent jihad to civilization is an unfair description of the choice we face here in Jerusalem.

20 Destro  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 5:53:39am

This ad is not pro Israel. Israel is a progressive western democracy which sadly is currently under coalition party rule of American style right wing nationalists and religious fanatics. I would say Israelis are a victim of this sort of American right wing thinking as much as anyone.

The use of the word 'savages' entails a whole host of horrors that were committed against native peoples by European colonists. Indians, Africans and Asians were called 'savages' to justify what was done to them by supposedly enlightened Westerners.

21 Destro  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:03:14am

re: #19 Rochi613

Lot's of words to justify dehumanizing people with the 'savages' label.

22 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:03:28am

re: #17 Aye Pod

It's just total extremist whackjobs who do that. Fuck them. There is a whole world of criticism and debate out there that doesn't have any connection with that garbage.

You would be surprised how large this vine is--of the Protocols. The Protocols simply summarize thousands of years of antisemitic canards. If one is Jewish, and paying attention, the tunes are familiar. One doesn't need to carry a copy of the Protocols in their back pocket to be able to recite from them. It's a greatly understudied field of psychology--how this is possible.

That's one reason why for many people, both within Israel and outside, supporting Israel means supporting it against the right wing and growing anti-enlightenment forces within Israel.

They are going to lose, and in a big way. One of the main reasons that they will lose is because of the MIT grad who is Prime Minister. The other reason, is that there are strong religious arguments against such anti-enlightenment forces. To understand Israel, you need a microscope, and many analysts prefer a cheap telescope.

23 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:07:21am

re: #17 Aye Pod

And this raises the question--if you know that you need a microscope to be accurate, why buy the cheap telescope and a blowhorn?

24 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:11:45am

Who downdings someone who had members of their family murdered? Talk about dehumanization.

25 Destro  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:12:18am

re: #16 Bob Levin

Because the politics are different here than they are in Israel. Israel's governance, the combination of Netenyahu and Stanley Fischer (who?), have steered Israel through a world economic minefield and brought the country through relatively unscathed by the crash of 2008 and the present European difficulties.

If you don't support right wing fringe groups in the USA why would you support a right wing fringe govt headed by Netantahu in Israel? Because the "politics there are different"? I think that is called rationalization (also known as making excuses).

At least Netantahu, according to you, "makes the trains run on time".

26 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:15:41am

re: #25 Destro

Let's make a deal. We don't converse until you learn how to read. If you think that my comment 16 is the same as 'making the trains run on time' then you simply can't understand English.

27 Aye Pod  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:21:32am

re: #22 Bob Levin

You would be surprised how large this vine is--of the Protocols. The Protocols simply summarize thousands of years of antisemitic canards. If one is Jewish, and paying attention, the tunes are familiar. One doesn't need to carry a copy of the Protocols in their back pocket to be able to recite from them. It's a greatly understudied field of psychology--how this is possible.

As I'm sure you know Jewish people do not all think alike. Plenty of criticisms of the right in Israel from Jewish people - somehow I doubt that these criticism are connected in any way with the Protocols nonsense. Among the vast majority of people the "Protocols" is a by-word for anti-semitic garbage.

PS I have seen ultra orthodox dismiss secular Israeli and Orthodox Jewish criticisms of their bs as 'anti-semitism' too.

They are going to lose, and in a big way. One of the main reasons that they will lose is because of the MIT grad who is Prime Minister. The other reason, is that there are strong religious arguments against such anti-enlightenment forces. To understand Israel, you need a microscope, and many analysts prefer a cheap telescope.

I hope you are right but I think you might be engaging in a little wishful thinking. If it was all about reasoned argument, and who has the best of them, we wouldn't be in this position at all, either in the US or in Israel.

28 Destro  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:26:47am

re: #22 Bob Levin

You would be surprised how large this vine is--of the Protocols. The Protocols simply summarize thousands of years of antisemitic canards. If one is Jewish, and paying attention, the tunes are familiar. One doesn't need to carry a copy of the Protocols in their back pocket to be able to recite from them. It's a greatly understudied field of psychology--how this is possible.

They are going to lose, and in a big way. One of the main reasons that they will lose is because of the MIT grad who is Prime Minister. The other reason, is that there are strong religious arguments against such anti-enlightenment forces. To understand Israel, you need a microscope, and many analysts prefer a cheap telescope.

Your propensity to knee jerk throw out the anti-sem. canard at every opportunity where you feel they are not being sufficiently pro-Israel enough has become a caricature already.

29 Aye Pod  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:30:13am

re: #24 Bob Levin

Who downdings someone who had members of their family murdered? Talk about dehumanization.

I regret that I have but one downding to give for that textblock of purest bigoted wingnut.

You should be able to communicate your displeasure with such a comment regardless of who made it, or what they may have said about their family history.

And to say that a downding is dehumanising is the worst trivialisation of the word 'dehumanising' I've ever seen.

30 Rochi613  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:30:57am

re: #20 Destro

This ad is not pro Israel. Israel is a progressive western democracy which sadly is currently under coalition party rule of American style right wing nationalists and religious fanatics. I would say Israelis are a victim of this sort of American right wing thinking as much as anyone.

re: #20 Destro

You are wrong, sir. Most Israelis are quite pleased with Mr. Netanyahu's leadership and would vote for him again tomorrow and this has nothing to do with being "a victim of American right wing thinking." We think for ourselves, thank you. Mr. Netanyahu not only sees economies quite clearly, he reads the psychological map of the Middle East better than all left-wing purveyors of "peaciness."

And as for as your tender sensitivities stirred up by the word "savage" or "savages," I still won't let you steal those words from me to describe people and behavior who/that are bloodthirsty and violent, mindless and merciless, in the name of a god who is identical with that description. Such people exist and such behavior exists. I am a witness. Censoring the word won't change that.

31 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:31:00am

re: #27 Aye Pod

Plenty of criticisms of the right in Israel from Jewish people - somehow I doubt that these criticism are connected in any way with the Protocols nonsense.

Exactly. Some of the criticisms are valid--because these critics are well versed in the intricacies of Jewish history, life, culture, and philosophy--that is, they use the microscope. Other critics are not so well versed and their words shouldn't be taken so seriously.

I really want to emphasize that the Protocols are the historical equivalent of a loaded weapon. That weapon has been used too effectively, to the shame of many.

PS I have seen ultra orthodox dismiss secular Israeli and Orthodox Jewish criticisms of their bs as 'anti-semitism' too.

Yes. View this as, you're at a bar and a couple who are dating break into a fight. Wise thing, walk away.

I hope you are right but I think you might be engaging in a little wishful thinking.

Not really. You'd be surprised how wanting to eat and be healthy will change a person's outlook on life. Bet on science.

32 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:35:09am

re: #29 Aye Pod

And to say that a downding is dehumanising is the worst trivialisation of the word 'dehumanising' I've ever seen.

Okay, so just clarify this. Someone comes up to you and says that they've just had two members of their family murdered, and you're reply is 'Tough luck, what matters is that we disagree politically.' Is that accurate?

33 Destro  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:37:34am

re: #30 Rochi613

Your support of right wing hate groups here and in Israel are dually noted.

34 Rochi613  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:39:44am

re: #21 Destro

Savage behavior is not not human; unfortunately, it is on the spectrum of human behavior inhuman as it is. I am not dehumanzing anyone by calling them or their behavior savage. I am simply printing out their position on a savage-to-civilized spectrum of humanity. Call me judgmental. I am merely using my judgment. Not a sin, by the way, a human duty.

35 Destro  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:42:22am

re: #32 Bob Levin

Okay, so just clarify this. Someone comes up to you and says that they've just had two members of their family murdered, and you're reply is 'Tough luck, what matters is that we disagree politically.' Is that accurate?

Maybe, bob, they downdinged said person because of the crap they said way before they mentioned at the bottom that 2 family members supposedly were killed in an attack.

But if how many family members are killed counts as who is right or wrong more Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces than Palestinians killed Israelis.

But that is not a valid way to count who is right or wrong is it?

36 Destro  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:44:42am

re: #34 Rochi613

Savage behavior is not not human; unfortunately, it is on the spectrum of human behavior inhuman as it is. I am not dehumanzing anyone by calling them or their behavior savage. I am simply printing out their position on a savage-to-civilized spectrum of humanity. Call me judgmental. I am merely using my judgment. Not a sin, by the way, a human duty.

Pamela Geller's group is a racist hate group per the Southern Poverty Law Center who monitor hate groups like the KKK. You are defending her use of the term savages in the context of the way Pamela Geller's racism does.

37 Rochi613  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:53:42am

re: #33 Destro

re: #29 Aye Pod

Wrong again, sir. I am not 'right wing.' I went to Hunter College High School and City College in Manhattan in the 60's and 70's - no right wingers there. What I am is a well-read, serious thinker, like most of the lizards. But I've lived in Israel for 30 years, and there are things you see here that you can't see from there. Heck, things you don't even have a vocabulary for (nor did I, of course, at first), things that are beyond 'left' and 'right. So don't think you can define me, or Israel.

38 Destro  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:56:54am

re: #37 Rochi613

re: #29 Aye Pod

Wrong again, sir. I am not 'right wing.' I went to Hunter College High School and City College in Manhattan in the 60's and 70's - no right wingers there. What I am is a well-read, serious thinker, like most of the lizards. But I've lived in Israel for 30 years, and there are things you see here that you can't see from there. Heck, things you don't even have a vocabulary for (nor did I, of course, at first), things that are beyond 'left' and 'right. So don't think you can define me, or Israel.

Me too! school wise! From a different century though. Small world.

39 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:58:01am

re: #35 Destro

Maybe, bob, they downdinged said person because of the crap they said way before they mentioned at the bottom that 2 family members supposedly were killed in an attack.

How many times do I have to say it, learn to read.

But if how many family members are killed counts as who is right or wrong more Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces than Palestinians killed Israelis.

But that is not a valid way to count who is right or wrong is it?

How about just leaving it alone? Or, I'm really sorry for your loss? Will that hurt?

40 Destro  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 7:00:10am

re: #39 Bob Levin

How many times do I have to say it, learn to read.

How about just leaving it alone? Or, I'm really sorry for your loss? Will that hurt?

Or it can be used an an excuse. For example: I lost family members on 9/11 therefore I should not be criticized when I say nuke em all they are all savages.

See?

41 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 7:04:13am

I do see.

By the way, either the software is not working here, or Charles is being a genius, but the reply button from me to your comments is not working. Let's take this as a sign.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 8:42:08am

re: #13 cinesimon

Oh, for sure - anyone who is against Israel's hard right shift is clearly antisemitic. Because truthiness.

'Cause there just ain't no anti-Semites out there...everyone knows that. Well, maybe a few types with Odin's Crosses.

//

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 8:57:38am

Those who choose not to educate themselves about the behavior of anti-Israel activists in the United States and Europe will continue to choose not to be educated, and to make excuses. Not a lot to be done about that.

44 Destro  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 10:11:33am

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

Those who choose not to educate themselves about the behavior of anti-Israel activists in the United States and Europe will continue to choose not to be educated, and to make excuses. Not a lot to be done about that.

There is a tendency by some to attack critics of Israeli policies as anti-semetic and there is a tendency to attack those that sympathize with Palestinian rights and national aspirations as being pro-terrorists or anti-semties.

One can critique Israel and support Palestinian rights and national aspirations without being anti-semetic or pro terrorist. One can critique Palestine's political problems without hating Muslims or Arabs or considering them 'savages', also.

45 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 12:47:27pm

re: #14 druid for hire

You'd fit right in with the Israel bashers here in the San Francisco Bay Area as you so casually assume that Israel is illegally occupying the region of the West Bank, and how it is allegedly committing atrocities against the Palestinians.

All you have is propaganda.

Hamas leadership would LOVE you.

46 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 6:22:46pm

Late to the thread, but got this via twitter

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

comments?

47 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 8:57:36pm

re: #46 Stanley Sea

Late to the thread, but got this via twitter

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

comments?

Even if the ad simply read, "Support Israel, Defeat Jihad," the Muslim community in SF would get upset, and CAIR would complain.

That said, the man mentioned in the ad, Hatem Bazian, a Dr. at Berkeley, is a RABID anti-Zionist and called for an intifada in the United States. This is not a man interested in peace, and desires the destruction of Israel.

Jewish voice for peace? Well, that's an oxymoron. I've personally witnessed members of that group, with big dumb smiles on their faces, stand aside members of Al Awda (yet another rabid anti-Israel group) as they chant nasty slogans against Jews and Israel at anti-Israel rallies.

I seriously doubt CAIR and its nefarious allies would object to Israelis being slandered as occupiers and brutalizers of the Palestinian people. They want to control the narrative and they may very well succeed.

48 CriticalDragon1177  Wed, Aug 15, 2012 9:10:15pm

re: #47 Eclectic Infidel

For one thing, Do you know what the term "Jihad" actually means? It probably doesn't mean what you think it means.

Dare I say “Jihad”?
[Link: theamericanmuslim.org...]

Also, can you back up anything else you're saying?


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