German Neo-Nazis Need Money

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The German far right is having a little spot of bother—two and a half million Euros worth: No Mercy for NPD: German Far-Right Party Fined Millions.

The nation’s largest neo-Nazi party, the NPD — with several members in state government seats — has been fighting for its life. On Thursday, the German parliament fined the NPD €2.5 million for financial statement irregularities. The party’s future looks uncertain.

Financially, Germany’s far-right National Democratic Party (NPD) was already on the ropes. But on Thursday the federal government added to the party’s troubles by fining it €2.5 million in connection with irregularities found in financial statements from 2007. The fine is due May 1.

The penalty stems from incorrect NPD claims about the size of the party coffers. In anticipation of the fine, the German parliament withheld a €300,000 transfer to the party in February — meaning the NPD must now come up with €2.2 million in just four weeks.

That promises to be difficult, even if the NPD is allowed to pay its fine in installments. Monthly administrative expenses for the NPD total some €110,000, with donations and membership fees covering just €30,000 of that. The party — which receives money from Berlin because it has several members in elected office — has come to rely on federal support for the remaining €80,000.

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268 comments
1 little boomer  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:49:26pm

Damn, all I have are these Reichmarks....

2 Macker  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:49:46pm

Let's play a violin for them....

3 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:49:51pm

Anyone have any Reichmarks they want to donate?

4 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:50:25pm

re: #1 little boomer

re: #3 Kosh's Shadow

GMTA. 25 seconds apart.

5 rawmuse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:50:46pm

"Ve lived in ze back! Ve didn't even know zere vas a wahr on!"

6 mikeymom  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:51:32pm

SSSHHHHH--dont tell the O! he;ll bail them out!

7 little boomer  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:51:46pm

At least I didn't say "Eins!"

8 rain of lead  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:52:00pm

Heh,
karma is a bitch

9 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:52:40pm

Maybe they'll find a nice stash of Ostmarks.

10 wiffersnapper  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:53:51pm

I thought the Nazi Party was banned? They got around it by changing their name? LOL.

11 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:53:58pm

Oh Noes! AntiIslamization nirth certifikit haz been eated again!

12 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:54:00pm

You know, Jews tend to be very charitable.
Somehow, I doubt these assholes are going to get any money from Jews.

13 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:55:02pm

Darned shame.

/not

14 pingjockey  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:55:06pm

Mwahaha, too frakkin' bad.

15 zombie  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:55:13pm
The nation’s largest neo-Nazi party, the NPD — with several members in state government seats — has been fighting for its life. On Thursday, the German parliament fined the NPD €2.5 million for financial statement irregularities. The party’s future looks uncertain.

I thought Nazism was ILLEGAL in Germany -- right?

Wasn't this anti-Nazi law enshrined ca. 1947 under the first post-war government in order to exclude former Nazis from power, and has been continued since that day?

How can there even BE a neo-Nazi party in Germany?

16 zombie  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:55:46pm

re: #10 wiffersnapper

I thought the Nazi Party was banned? They got around it by changing their name? LOL.

I typed too long and you scooped me!

17 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:56:01pm

re: #15 zombie

I thought Nazism was ILLEGAL in Germany -- right?

Wasn't this anti-Nazi law enshrined ca. 1947 under the first post-war government in order to exclude former Nazis from power, and has been continued since that day?

How can there even BE a neo-Nazi party in Germany?

Yeah, I was wondering myself...

18 Macker  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:56:05pm

re: #12 Kosh's Shadow

What about the ones who hate themselves?

19 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:56:48pm

Nazism by any other name . . .

oh, wait, wasn't that a 'rose'?

20 Syrah  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:57:56pm

re: #19 ggt

Nazism by any other name . . .

oh, wait, wasn't that a 'rose'?

It still has thorns.

21 zombie  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:58:35pm

re: #17 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, I was wondering myself...

Well, wiffersnapper in #10 says they simply changed their name. If so, what a ridiculous toothless law.

"We are Nazis!"
"Nope, Can't be. Nazis are illegal. Keep saying that, and we'll toss you in jail."
"OK, we're...uh...uh...Zanis! Yeah, that's the ticket."
Welcome to the club, Zani Party. Here's your seats in Parliament."

22 Inquisitive  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:58:39pm

Police statistics indicate that the number of right-extremist crimes climbed in 2008 an that more and more teenagers are attracted by the message of the far right.

Hope it falls apart... and..quickly!

23 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:58:43pm
24 Claire  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:58:50pm

Wait, now Neo-Nazi's are "far right"? I thought Nazi's were socialists? What tenets or whatever do they carry over from original Nazism, then?

I'm soooo confused........

25 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:59:04pm

This brings to mind anohter german phrase:

schadenfreude.

26 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:59:11pm

Boy, wouldn't it be nice if someone could fine some of OUR politicians for "irregularities".

Here we put them in charge of Treasury.

27 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:59:22pm

The NPD. Perpetrators of the Dresden bombing disinformation. Udo Voigt compared it to the Holocaust. Typical.

28 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 9:59:46pm

re: #18 Macker

What about the ones who hate themselves?

Few hate themselves enough to like those who blatantly want to kill them.

29 mikeymom  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:00:05pm

CHARLES--may i buy you a drink? if so, what are you drinking right now?

30 traderjoe9  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:00:53pm

I guess the Jews stole all their money.

31 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:01:02pm

re: #23 Iron Fist

Nazism by any other name still smells like a body left out in the sun for several days to ripen.

Worse.
Smells like 6 million burning corpses.

32 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:02:09pm

re: #30 traderjoe9

I guess the Jews stole all their money.

"And stored it away in their Jew-caves" -- Eric Cartman

/I know

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:02:13pm

re: #28 Kosh's Shadow

Few hate themselves enough to like those who blatantly want to kill them.

Correction: few hate themselves enough to like those who blatantly want to kill them, AND are not at all exotic or folkloric, AND whose former party's name is still used to cuss out the cops by the stupider young people on any American campus.

(Is that clear enough? Anyway, few self-hating Jews will send checks. Good enough for me.)

34 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:03:12pm
The nation’s largest neo-Nazi party, the NPD — with several members in state government seats — has been fighting for its life

Ain't that just a fucking pity. Not.

35 rawmuse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:03:15pm

re: #24 Claire

Wait, now Neo-Nazi's are "far right"? I thought Nazi's were socialists? What tenets or whatever do they carry over from original Nazism, then?

I'm soooo confused........

All forms of Authoritarianism tend to meet some place.

36 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:03:15pm
37 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:03:26pm

Ha! let them rent themselves out to historical re-enactment clubs doing the nuremberg trials. Let them choke on their failure, for all I care.

38 clgood  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:03:43pm

re: #24 Claire

Wait, now Neo-Nazi's are "far right"? I thought Nazi's were socialists? What tenets or whatever do they carry over from original Nazism, then?

I'm wondering the same thing. The original Nazis were "far left". What is it about the Neo-Nazis that makes them any kind of "far right"? (The "far" part I get.)

39 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:03:58pm

re: #15 zombie

I thought Nazism was ILLEGAL in Germany -- right?

Wasn't this anti-Nazi law enshrined ca. 1947 under the first post-war government in order to exclude former Nazis from power, and has been continued since that day?

How can there even BE a neo-Nazi party in Germany?

Yeah, Nazism is illegal in Germany, but you can play hide and go seek with labeling.

/not flying with German society

40 mikeymom  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:04:02pm

ok--hubby and i read police/detective fiction books--they always talk about the smell of decaying bodies and how, once tou smell it you never forget the smell. has any lizard actually smelled it?

41 lostlakehiker  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:04:05pm

How is it even possible that a neo-nazi party could exist in Germany? Isn't that just flat illegal? Not like "illegal alien" illegal, but for-real illegal?

42 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:04:49pm
The party’s future looks uncertain.

How is pamela taking this news?

43 Syrah  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:04:56pm

Hi Sharm,

I have am through Chapter 3 of The Conflict of Visions. You are likely beyond that. How are you doing?

44 clgood  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:05:08pm

re: #40 mikeymom

I've smelled decaying cattle. I imagine it's close. And yes, you never forget it.

45 wiffersnapper  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:06:08pm

re: #16 zombie

sorry about that!

46 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:06:20pm

re: #41 lostlakehiker

How is it even possible that a neo-nazi party could exist in Germany? Isn't that just flat illegal? Not like "illegal alien" illegal, but for-real illegal?

They're considered a de-facto neo-nazi party. They hide behind the name of NPD and omit any traditional Nazi symbolism.

47 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:06:45pm

re: #38 clgood

I'm wondering the same thing. The original Nazis were "far left". What is it about the Neo-Nazis that makes them any kind of "far right"? (The "far" part I get.)

Simple enough - they attacked the USSR, with whom they had previously had a non-aggression pact and a sneaky deal to divide up Poland. In accordance with the principle that there are no enemies of leftists anywhere on the left, once the Reich attacked the Soviet Motherland, they instantly became "rightists". Really not that hard to perform the intellectual contortions required to follow the Party line, comrade; just pay attention.

48 mikeymom  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:09:00pm

re: #44 clgood

the scene in rob roy-where he hides in a decaying carcass of an ox-or cow--just was awesome in a horrifying way-- are you a rancher that would see a decaying cow?
just curious

49 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:10:04pm

re: #43 Syrah

Hi Sharm,

I have am through Chapter 3 of The Conflict of Visions. You are likely beyond that. How are you doing?

I'm half through 3 and looking forward to our spin off thread. Let's just start now, shall we?

Other than that, I'm nearly crushed about these poor, poor nazis that I could almost give a sh*t.

50 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:10:09pm

re: #40 mikeymom

ok--hubby and i read police/detective fiction books--they always talk about the smell of decaying bodies and how, once tou smell it you never forget the smell. has any lizard actually smelled it?

Yes, and to me, it was a piercing odor, equal parts sickly-sweet and ammoniac, and it clings to everything, but everything! That's the first impression; afterwards, the smell becomes sharply metallic (I can think of no other word) and even more pierceing (it makes the eyes water, which makes the nose run, and the scent is then trapped in the extra moisture in the nasal passages, intensifying the odor. Our brains are hard-wired to hate and fear the smell, and it takes more will-power and strength than I've ever been able to muster or imagine mustering not to toss cookies the first time you get hit with it.

51 Claire  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:10:44pm

re: #47 Guanxi88

Wow- seriously?

52 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:11:22pm

re: #42 Sharmuta

How is pamela taking this news?

She must be sending have sent them a ginormous check.

53 Inquisitive  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:11:57pm

re: #41 lostlakehiker

How is it even possible that a neo-nazi party could exist in Germany? Isn't that just flat illegal? Not like "illegal alien" illegal, but for-real illegal?

In anticipation of the fine, the German parliament withheld a €300,000 transfer to the party in February --
German election law calls for public funds to be made available to all parties which receive more than 1 percent of the vote in state elections or more than 0.5 percent of the vote in nationwide elections. Furthermore, political parties receive money from Berlin based on the amount of donations they receive.

Not only is it not illegal....they give them money....for their party. ......but it diffenently should be

54 mikeymom  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:12:11pm

re: #50 Guanxi88

wow--how did you expirence this?

55 clgood  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:12:30pm

re: #48 mikeymom

My dad was a cattleman, but I happened across the dead cow on a hill near our home in Novato. It's a bedroom town north of San Francisco. Complete 60's-70's burb, but there were and are cows on the surrounding hills.

56 traderjoe9  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:12:58pm

Obama's New World Older

Most of the hallmarks of the foreign policy of George W. Bush are gone. The old conservative idea of "American exceptionalism," which placed the U.S. on a plane above the rest of the world as a unique beacon of democracy and financial might, has been rejected. At almost every stop, Obama has made clear that the U.S. is but one actor in a global community. Talk of American economic supremacy has been replaced by a call from Obama for more growth in developing countries. Claims of American military supremacy have been replaced with heavy emphasis on cooperation and diplomatic hard labor.

Fuck that. America is exceptional. That'll be the day when America is 'equal' to the garbage in Europe. But Obama will quickly bring us to that point.

57 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:13:03pm

re: #47 Guanxi88

Simple enough - they attacked the USSR, with whom they had previously had a non-aggression pact and a sneaky deal to divide up Poland.

One of the biggest mistakes in human history. They lose Berlin and all males remaining walk east, most never return.

/pretty sure modern Germany still remembers that, Nazis bad

58 zombie  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:13:19pm

re: #24 Claire

Wait, now Neo-Nazi's are "far right"? I thought Nazi's were socialists? What tenets or whatever do they carry over from original Nazism, then?

I'm soooo confused........

re: #38 clgood

I'm wondering the same thing. The original Nazis were "far left". What is it about the Neo-Nazis that makes them any kind of "far right"? (The "far" part I get.)

Just because they had the word "Socialism" in their name does not mean they qualify as "left-wing." In fact, in modern terms, the Italian Fascist party is kind of the prototypical definition of what constitutes "far right-wing." By extension, any close allies of the Fascists -- such as the Nazis -- are defined as "far right-wing." Like it or not, that the way things go. It would be nigh-on impossible to change popular consensus at this stage. I think that the average middle-of-the-road American Democrat is no more pleased by the fact that Stalinism and the Khmer Rouge are dubbed "left-wing" either. Each "side" has its embarrassing extremists.

However, this does bring up a good point: If the left/right dichotomy was devised in 1792, and the Italian fascists didn't come along until 1919, what were the defining features of "right-wingism" in the period between 1792 and 1919? The left had Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels to come along in the 1840s to define the Left's ideology, but what did the "right" have? Nothing so definitive.

I've always thought of Chauvin as the sort of original prototypical right-winger, but I don't even know if he's now classified as such.

As for me, I utterly reject the left/right dichotomy, but I've ranted about that so much already I'll give everyone a break.

59 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:13:27pm

re: #38 clgood

I'm wondering the same thing. The original Nazis were "far left". What is it about the Neo-Nazis that makes them any kind of "far right"? (The "far" part I get.)

did you read Liberal Fascism by Johah Goldberg? He states that after WWII Russian tried very hard to distance themselves from fascism (being basically a collectivist ideology) that they re-wrote the definition to make Nazism right-wing.

or something like that. Any Lizard who would like to re-word the above is more than welcome.

60 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:14:03pm

BAILOUT!

61 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:14:53pm

re: #51 Claire

Wow- seriously?

Yes, that's how it happened. If you get the chance, you should read "Witness" by Whittaker Chambers; he was a soviet agent during the inter-war period, and he realtes the story of the non-aggression pact between the USSR and Reich as being the first sign that something was seriously wrong with the leadership of the Party. Remember - the whole time the Reich was rampaging through Europe, the Reds never lifted a finger to stop them; with their non-aggression pact, Molotov and Ribbentropp divided Eastern Europe. Unlce Joe purged the Red Army, decapitating the force by purging its officer corps, and the Reich attacked, sensing weakness.

There were exachanges of military advisors and such between the two nations all up until the commencement of Operation Barabarossa; they were very close, indeed, in ideology and goals. This is what made them friendly early on, then rivals, then existential enemies. They both wanted the same thing.

62 mikeymom  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:15:02pm

re: #55 clgood
ok thanks--just curiuos here-hope i never experience it

63 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:17:04pm

re: #54 mikeymom

wow--how did you expirence this?

I had the misfortune (for me) of coming across the body of a man who had fallen to his death from a ridge-line; it was fortunate for his family, though, as he had been missing a week by then, and it is likely that had I not come across him, he might never have had a burial at all.

I ended up shaving my hair and burning my clothes afterward. Somehow, maybe it was psychological, I couldn't seem to get the smell out of my stuff.

64 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:17:56pm

I would not consider the NPD to be right-wing. Europe is so leftist, they don't have a clue what the right wing is.

The NPD are nationalist, particularly Germanic and white nationalist.
They consider themselves anti-communist; their platform promotes a mix of social security and private property.
And yes, they admire Hitler.

Personally, I don't think they belong on the extreme left or the extreme right. Extreme anger about covers it.

65 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:18:00pm

re: #60 Occasional Reader

BAILOUT!

/other than the damage already done, we're pretty much done with that concept, it's just no longer needed anyway

66 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:19:14pm

re: #58 zombie

There was a dichotomy in the Federalists and the anti-Federalists in the ratification debate. Not really so much a name, but the dichotomy is there. Also with european thought around the French Revolution.

67 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:19:46pm

re: #61 Guanxi88

Yes, that's how it happened. If you get the chance, you should read "Witness" by Whittaker Chambers; he was a soviet agent during the inter-war period, and he realtes the story of the non-aggression pact between the USSR and Reich as being the first sign that something was seriously wrong with the leadership of the Party. Remember - the whole time the Reich was rampaging through Europe, the Reds never lifted a finger to stop them; with their non-aggression pact, Molotov and Ribbentropp divided Eastern Europe. Unlce Joe purged the Red Army, decapitating the force by purging its officer corps, and the Reich attacked, sensing weakness.

It wasn't just the officer corps. In the late 1930s Stalin gutted his own intelligence services as well (which had been staffed under Lenin, Trotsky, etc). 1938 was when Yagoda was executed. Stalin was dialing back the internationalist pretensions of the initial Comintern; implementing "Socialism In One Country" as he called it.

68 clgood  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:19:59pm

re: #47 Guanxi88

Just because they had the word "Socialism" in their name does not mean they qualify as "left-wing."

Well, the only difference in the two brands of tyranny is that socialism does away with private property while fascism just gives control of all businesses to the government. To conjure S.I. Hayakawa, it's the difference between horse dung and cat dung. And, as someone else pointed out, Jonah Goldberg has done a good job of showing how they "liberalism" and "fascism" are really pretty much the same thing.


However, this does bring up a good point: If the left/right dichotomy was devised in 1792, and the Italian fascists didn't come along until 1919, what were the defining features of "right-wingism" in the period between 1792 and 1919?

...

As for me, I utterly reject the left/right dichotomy, but I've ranted about that so much already I'll give everyone a break.

That's my meta point, I guess. I can point at lots of things and tell they are "left wing". But what, exactly, is a useful definition of "right wing"?

I understand your point about public perception. But I'm talking about reality here.

69 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:20:25pm

re: #56 traderjoe9

No matter how they try to get around the word, The One is a member of the Communist party, even if he does not carry his membership card with him. Bet he knows the secret handshake.

And the Jew hate he and any of the millions of Jews who actually voted for him engender will have repercussions for decades after. he has laid the groundwork from his Alinsky book: 'How to be a Commie in 10 Easy Lessons'™

70 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:20:36pm

Well, it's generally accepted in current society to categorize Communists as far-left and Nazis as far-right.

71 mikeymom  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:22:08pm

re: #63 Guanxi88
OMG--how lomg ago was this? are you ok? ive never had anything like this hapen to me..but-on the night my dad died, i sat with my mom and she told me that my dad --had to identify the body of his dad-apparent suicide-from a river-i cant say more-

72 HelloDare  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:22:14pm

Never made sense to me that fascist are considered right and communist left.

They both want to control the economy, culture, everything. The main difference is that fascists are nationalistic and communist are mostly internationalists.

Fascist think they are superior. Communists pretend everybody is the same.

But why are fascists considered to be on the far right? Is it because they pretend to leave production alone.

Or could it be that communist-leaning professors want to even the equation. Communist/left, fascists/right.

Communists want to control the means of production. Fascists let business men control that but then they control the businessmen.

Russia and China lived side by side for years. It that because they had a mutual enemy or it is because they were both internationalists?

Could Nazi Germany and a militaristic Japan have coexisted, lived side by side? Japan believed their emperor was god. Don't see Aryan Germany coexisting with that.

Nope. Never bought in to Fascists being on the right. At least not by my definition.

73 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:22:51pm

re: #70 Gus 802

Well, it's generally accepted in current society to categorize Communists as far-left and Nazis as far-right.

No matter how anyone categorizes them, they still stink the same.

74 clgood  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:23:03pm

re: #64 lurking faith

Ahh... Maybe "nationalism" is part of the "right wing" key. I love the bit about mixing "social security with private property." Sounds like the "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" beast. (Which is still really left-wing.)

75 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:23:05pm

bbiab

76 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:23:07pm

re: #60 Occasional Reader

BAILOUT!

After the racist crap the NPD said when Obama was elected, I kinda doubt it.

77 rawmuse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:23:12pm

re: #70 Gus 802

I never did. They were the National Socialist Party.
I am old fashioned, words still mean what they mean, to me, revisionists be damned, especially lying commie revisionists.

78 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:23:23pm

re: #73 NY Nana

No matter how anyone categorizes them, they still stink the same.

There you go. Exactly.

79 Syrah  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:24:03pm

re: #66 Sharmuta

There was a dichotomy in the Federalists and the anti-Federalists in the ratification debate. Not really so much a name, but the dichotomy is there. Also with european thought around the French Revolution.

Wasn't the Assembly of the French Revolution that started this whole left-right confusion?

80 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:24:07pm

re: #76 lurking faith

After the racist crap the NPD said when Obama was elected, I kinda doubt it.

Well, good to know he'll draw the line somewhere.

81 tradewind  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:24:51pm

Only slightly O/T, since we're talking nazis.... in the aftermath of the holocaust, what the Jewish patriots achieved in the establishment of Israel..... with no thanks to the US, other than lip service, btw.... is truly remarkable.
A serious, and seriously long, history of the struggle for Israel as a nation.... worth reading when you have time.
[Link: www.historynet.com...]

82 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:25:05pm

re: #68 clgood

That's my meta point, I guess. I can point at lots of things and tell they are "left wing". But what, exactly, is a useful definition of "right wing"?

I understand your point about public perception. But I'm talking about reality here.

That's trickier, of course. Part of the problem, at least as I see it, is that "the right" becomes the defualt position of anyone who is not a "progressive," which is to say, anyone who is not a sociallist of one stripe or another.

Think about this - De Maistre, Ronald Reagan, and Rudy Giuliani, as intellectually and politically diverse a triad as I can think of, are all described as "rightists," and Lenin, FDR, and Castro, are somehow all "leftists". The terms are too broad to be useful, to me at least.

83 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:25:32pm

re: #77 rawmuse

I never did. They were the National Socialist Party.
I am old fashioned, words still mean what they mean, to me, revisionists be damned, especially lying commie revisionists.

Understood.

84 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:25:50pm

re: #79 Syrah

I think zombie would enjoy Conflict of Visions.

85 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:26:25pm

re: #71 mikeymom

OMG--how lomg ago was this? are you ok? ive never had anything like this hapen to me..but-on the night my dad died, i sat with my mom and she told me that my dad --had to identify the body of his dad-apparent suicide-from a river-i cant say more-

It's about 20 years now; no, I don't think anyone is ever the same afterward, but I'm all right. People have seen and endured far worse.

86 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:26:47pm

re: #70 Gus 802

Well, it's generally accepted in current society to categorize Communists as far-left and Nazis as far-right.

/whatever Nazi rule might have been, once the war started it was pure socialism, culminating in inevitable centrally planned disaster, drugged out Hitler calling the day to day shots, the reason the allies quit trying to assasinate him in and around 1944

87 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:26:48pm

OT - Found a strange comment over at GOV regarding the Binghamton shooting.

88 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:26:53pm

Couldn't happen to a nastier bunch of people.

89 Occasional Reader  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:27:07pm

Good night.

90 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:27:25pm

re: #69 NY Nana

No matter how they try to get around the word, The One is a member of the Communist party, even if he does not carry his membership card with him. Bet he knows the secret handshake.

And the Jew hate he and any of the millions of Jews who actually voted for him engender will have repercussions for decades after. he has laid the groundwork from his Alinsky book: 'How to be a Commie in 10 Easy Lessons'™

And the 0 has come out in favor of the Saudi destroy Israel plan, which requires Israel to accept any refugees who had homes there and want to come back. The Palestinian state the plan creates would have to take back those who had homes there.
I can be 100% sure no Arab country, including the Palestinian state will take any of the ones Israel will have to take, thus guaranteeing they all move to Israel.

0 has come out for the destruction of Israel. His teleprompter hasn't told him that yet, but that is the way the plan is supposed to work. Am I sure? As sure as I can be without reading the minds of the Saudis (YUK!)

91 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:27:27pm

re: #60 Occasional Reader

BAILOUT!

Tea Party!

92 traderjoe9  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:27:45pm

re: #69 NY Nana

No matter how they try to get around the word, The One is a member of the Communist party, even if he does not carry his membership card with him. Bet he knows the secret handshake.

And the Jew hate he and any of the millions of Jews who actually voted for him engender will have repercussions for decades after. he has laid the groundwork from his Alinsky book: 'How to be a Commie in 10 Easy Lessons'™

Absolutely.

I have zero doubt in my mind that he is a Jew-hater. It's not by a mere accident that Obama accidentally stumbles into relationships with an enormous number of anti-Semites and Israeli-bashers.

For that matter, an enormous number of America-haters, too.

93 rawmuse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:28:00pm

re: #82 Guanxi88

Good point. As I posted the other night, a "right winger" is any person that does not go along with every single nit wit idea that a "progressive" has.

94 clgood  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:28:00pm

re: #82 Guanxi88

That's trickier, of course. Part of the problem, at least as I see it, is that "the right" becomes the defualt position of anyone who is not a "progressive," which is to say, anyone who is not a sociallist of one stripe or another.

Brilliant. I should have known it really only meant "the other". It's kind of like "bipartisanship".

Partisanship = The Republicans get what they want.
Bipartisanship = The Democrats get what they want.

95 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:28:00pm

re: #86 Killian Bundy

/whatever Nazi rule might have been, once the war started it was pure socialism, culminating in inevitable centrally planned disaster, drugged out Hitler calling the day to day shots, the reason the allies quit trying to assasinate him in and around 1944

Yep. They didn't have "far-left" and "far-right" during WWII. It was generally Communists and Nazis.

96 Syrah  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:28:24pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

I think zombie would enjoy Conflict of Visions.

I agree.

Zombie, time to buy another book.

97 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:28:27pm

Hey, the wiki page on the NPD has a photo of it's current leader with David Duke.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

98 HelloDare  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:28:33pm

re: #77 rawmuse

Great point. I'll have to remember it.

99 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:29:13pm

re: #78 Gus 802

There you go. Exactly.

And here is Our Leader.....

100 tradewind  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:29:36pm

re: #50 Guanxi88

It's because of micro-particles that are actually in your nasal passages, clinging to the cilia. The urge to wash is intuitive, because it is the only thing other than the sheer passage of time that will remove it.

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:30:10pm

re: #64 lurking faith

I would not consider the NPD to be right-wing. Europe is so leftist, they don't have a clue what the right wing is.

What would you define as 'right wing'? Just curious--please, other people throw in your definitions. Is there such a thing as the 'far right'? What characterizes it?

102 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:30:21pm

re: #99 NY Nana

And here is Our Leader.....

Is that the "Peoples Republic Army" in the background?

103 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:30:53pm

re: #100 tradewind

It's because of micro-particles that are actually in your nasal passages, clinging to the cilia. The urge to wash is intuitive, because it is the only thing other than the sheer passage of time that will remove it.

It was appalling; evolution wrought well when it decided to make us hate and fear the physcial signs of death and decay.

104 zombie  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:31:42pm

re: #74 clgood

Ahh... Maybe "nationalism" is part of the "right wing" key.

That's exactly what I thought, which is why I pointed out Nicolas Chauvin as the sort of prototypical right-winger. Whether or not he was a real soldier or a glamorized semi-legendary character, his defining feature was unconditional love of his country (France, in his case). In fact, the original meaning of "chauvinism" was "unmitigated nationalism." (Much later, someone devised the cockamamie term "male chauvinism" which barely made sense, and then the "male" part was dropped and the term took on a new meaning.)

However, the communist Russians ("Mother Russia!") and Chinese were just as nationalistic and patriotic as any right-wing regime, so even that definition makes no sense.

Another reason why I want to dump the left/right dichotomy into the dustbin of history.

105 tradewind  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:32:27pm

re: #92 traderjoe9

It seems that way, but still... you have to wonder how Rahm wraps his mind around that?

106 mikeymom  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:32:59pm

good night all-may God bless all lizards-esp those in pain--see you soon-mm

107 zombie  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:33:00pm

re: #82 Guanxi88

Think about this - De Maistre, Ronald Reagan, and Rudy Giuliani, as intellectually and politically diverse a triad as I can think of, are all described as "rightists," and Lenin, FDR, and Castro, are somehow all "leftists". The terms are too broad to be useful, to me at least.

I fully agree.

108 KingKenrod  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:33:06pm

Large fines of this sort that are obviously calculated to destroy unpalatable parties are just as likely to stoke sympathy for them and cement their persecuted minority status. A fine isn't going to make the hate go away. This is another example of Europe's incorrect belief that bureaucrats can solve problems.

109 traderjoe9  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:33:52pm

re: #81 tradewind

Only slightly O/T, since we're talking nazis.... in the aftermath of the holocaust, what the Jewish patriots achieved in the establishment of Israel..... with no thanks to the US, other than lip service, btw.... is truly remarkable.
A serious, and seriously long, history of the struggle for Israel as a nation.... worth reading when you have time.
[Link: www.historynet.com...]

Benny Morris is an odd duck; I can't quite figure him out.

110 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:34:25pm

Interesting article re Shrillary & The One and their connection to Alinsky, from 2 years ago, in the WAPO, of all places.

111 zombie  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:34:53pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

I think zombie would enjoy Conflict of Visions.

re: #96 Syrah

I agree.

Zombie, time to buy another book.

I'll add it to my list!

112 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:35:24pm

Here's the off the wall entry from GOV regarding the Binghamton shooting:

I don’t know if this is a coincidence, but as I have reported previously, the national headquarters of the Muslims of America — the front organization for the terrorist group Jamaat ul-Fuqra — is in a rural area near Binghamton.

He left it up too.

113 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:35:41pm

re: #104 zombie

Another reason why I want to dump the left/right dichotomy into the dustbin of history.

Not to go too far meta into this, but old Marty Heidegger observed, and this in the lated 40's - early 50's, that the USA and the USSR were metaphysically indistinguishable, and were in fact not so far apart in ideology and (gotta love heidegger) "orientation-toward-Being-as-such" as first appearances would suggest. Both were modern, materialist, atheistic, and believed that the human being was so constituted as to seek happiness and satisfaction in the form of material comforts; they disagreed only on how these things were to be distributed once they had been obtained from the technological conquest of nature.

114 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:36:03pm

re: #102 Gus 802

Is that the "Peoples Republic Army" in the background?

It looks like it.

/The One only wears his uniform on special occassions.

115 clgood  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:36:38pm

OK, a little side-trip to Wikiland sheds some light. There are two (conflicting, really) kinds of "right wing". Our little Neo friends could get shoehorned in as "tradditionalists" or "opposing change" if seen through the right lens, downhill and with a tailwind.

Since I support laissez-faire capitalism I can fairly be called "right wing". Someone who just wants to hold on to the old government also fits the original definition. And, with some mental gymnastics, so do these skinheads. Yet they and I would agree on little beyond, perhaps, the color of the sky.

Zombie's right: The definition's not very useful.

116 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:37:11pm

re: #114 NY Nana

It looks like it.

/The One only wears his uniform on special occassions.

I still scratch my head at the thought of him being POTUS. The electorate here is very confusing.

117 traderjoe9  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:37:25pm

re: #105 tradewind

It seems that way, but still... you have to wonder how Rahm wraps his mind around that?

Its a shame about Rahm. He is one of the lefty Jews who actually retains his connection with Israel.

I don't know how he wraps his mind around it, just like I don't know why 80% of Jews voted for BO. What I do know is that in the thousands of years of Jewish existence, their number one enemy has always been the Jews.

118 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:37:39pm

re: #113 Guanxi88

Not to go too far meta into this, but old Marty Heidegger observed, and this in the lated 40's - early 50's, that the USA and the USSR were metaphysically indistinguishable, and were in fact not so far apart in ideology and (gotta love heidegger) "orientation-toward-Being-as-such" as first appearances would suggest. Both were modern, materialist, atheistic, and believed that the human being was so constituted as to seek happiness and satisfaction in the form of material comforts; they disagreed only on how these things were to be distributed once they had been obtained from the technological conquest of nature.

The jihadists in afghanistan were as puzzled by the split between the USSR and the West, found the whole thing fully as baffling, as most non-muslims find the Sunni/Shiite split. To the Afghan mujaheddin, there was no difference between the USA and the USSR, except that the USA was willing to help them fight the USSR.

119 JHW  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:37:57pm

From Der Spiegel, Feb. 16;
Strong Neo-Nazi Showing in Dresden Heightens Concerns

120 tradewind  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:38:31pm

re: #107 zombie

What's especially interesting is noticing who is described as a 'centrist' by which group or media outlet.

121 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:39:12pm

re: #119 JHW

From Der Spiegel, Feb. 16;
Strong Neo-Nazi Showing in Dresden Heightens Concerns

Dammit! I rather thought we'd burned the Nazis out of that particular city.

122 clgood  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:39:25pm

re: #113 Guanxi88

Both were modern, materialist, atheistic, and believed that the human being was so constituted as to seek happiness and satisfaction in the form of material comforts; they disagreed only on how these things were to be distributed once they had been obtained from the technological conquest of nature.

I am not familiar with the gentleman, but it's obvious he was a left-winger. Only a blinkered leftie could say the USA and the USSR were hard to distinguish, and his use of the D-word (distributed) seals the deal. The biggest difference is that wealth in the USSR was distributed, and wealth in the USA was created.

123 capitalist piglet  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:39:36pm

OT, sort of, and not already posted I hope:

Obama Joins Human-Rights Charade


Every morning throughout the Council sessions, all U.N. member states meet to strategize and share information in one of the U.N.’s five regional groups. All that is, except Israel. At the Council, Israel is denied membership in any regional group, including the amalgam of Western states to which the United States belongs. The United States is, therefore, about to attend a continuous stream of meetings through doors effectively marked “no representatives of the Jewish people allowed.”
124 tradewind  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:40:29pm

re: #116 Gus 802

I still scratch my head at the thought of him being POTUS.


So does POTUS.
For BHO, it was all about the campaign, and hey.. it still is.
Sucks for us.

125 pat  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:40:39pm

I really do not see a resurgence of NAZIs. To even try is imbecilic. I mean , except for a few nutcases, and many Muslims, these people are like toads in a horse race.

126 JHW  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:41:03pm

re: #121 Guanxi88

From what I read in the German media at the time, there were quite strong counter protests against the Neo-nazis, near riot conditions.

127 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:41:35pm

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

What would you define as 'right wing'? Just curious--please, other people throw in your definitions. Is there such a thing as the 'far right'? What characterizes it?

Probably I shouldn't tackle the question late at night and not entirely sober, but ... basically I think of "right wing" as what most people would probably call conservative.

Traditionalism, respect for the law, individual responsibility, limited government...

Maybe my definition is only mine, but I developed it in reaction to what the left is, on the theory that opposing sides ought to be in some way opposite.

128 KingKenrod  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:41:37pm

re: #81 tradewind

Only slightly O/T, since we're talking nazis.... in the aftermath of the holocaust, what the Jewish patriots achieved in the establishment of Israel..... with no thanks to the US, other than lip service, btw.... is truly remarkable.
A serious, and seriously long, history of the struggle for Israel as a nation.... worth reading when you have time.
[Link: www.historynet.com...]

That's an excellent article. It appeared in the Spring 2009 issue of MHQ along with many photographs of Jewish patriots in action. I think Benny Morris has unique credibility in that he was once pro-Palestinian.

129 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:42:08pm

re: #111 zombie

Cool. I think you'll like it. It's not expensive at Amazon, and it's not long either. Just over 250 pages.

130 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:43:04pm

re: #102 Gus 802

Is that the "Peoples Republic Army" in the background?

Don't be silly- that's the National Civilian Defense Force in the background.

131 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:44:04pm

re: #130 Fenway_Nation

Don't be silly- that's the National Civilian Defense Force in the background.

Ah. Right. On break from working in the iPod factory. //

132 Steffan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:44:09pm

Didn't Hitler make a mint and a half from sales of Mein Kampf? ISTR that he was a legitimate (if that can be said about him) millionaire from the royalties. IIRC, he had a sister who survived WWII, but I don't think she was his heir.

What the heck happened to that money?

Maybe the German government could claim ownership of the copyright and get the proceeds from all of the sales in the ME. From what I hear, it's a very very popular book in the Muslim world.

OT: I sent an email to the Japanese Ambassador to the US, suggesting that, with all the crap the Norks and Chinese are pulling, they might want to disband the Joint-Self-Defense Forces and reinstate the IJN, IJA and IJAF.

Ya think that might make the Norks and Chinese shit a little green worm?

/ :)

133 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:44:15pm

re: #92 traderjoe9

Absolutely.

I have zero doubt in my mind that he is a Jew-hater. It's not by a mere accident that Obama accidentally stumbles into relationships with an enormous number of anti-Semites and Israeli-bashers.

For that matter, an enormous number of America-haters, too.

Spot-on. And his decision that he and Shrillary, another Commie and Jew hater, will try to destroy Israel by dividing it. It is not Man's to divide or give away.

And it looks more likely every day that it will be Israel who goes after Iran, just as they did to Iraq in 1981. Can you even imagine what it would be like if they had not done this?

Among all his other flaws, The One is a blatant coward.

134 rawmuse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:44:15pm

According to Wiki, I am a "classical liberal"

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:44:18pm

re: #112 Gus 802

Here's the off the wall entry from GOV regarding the Binghamton shooting:


He left it up too.

That's pretty off the wall. They got a lot of Vietnamese guys that do jobs for Jamaat al-Fuqra?

Until I see some solid evidence to the contrary, I'm going to presume that this was a case of an unstable or evil individual acting out of some motivation of his own.

Currently, there's no indication that any Muslim, let alone any Islamic terrorist organization or front, is in any way involved with this.

136 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:44:28pm

re: #126 JHW

From what I read in the German media at the time, there were quite strong counter protests against the Neo-nazis, near riot conditions.

Well, I'm not pleased to see them, either way; sure as Hell don't like the reds and anarchists slugging it out with them, but am pleased if these destructive types can be induced to bleed while taking chunks out of each other.

137 tradewind  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:44:37pm

re: #128 KingKenrod

I read it with that ' wait for it' feeling that the bias was about to spring out full blown at any moment, but it never did..... a really unique experience to read that history without the usual revisionist goggles.
Comments were interesting... mostly thoughtful and positive re the article, but you just knew there had to be that one semi-literate jihadi protesting the entire unfairness of Israel's existence, and sure enough, he showed.
Even less than semi literate, actually. His outrage was pretty incoherent.

138 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:47:33pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

That's pretty off the wall. They got a lot of Vietnamese guys that do jobs for Jamaat al-Fuqra?

Until I see some solid evidence to the contrary, I'm going to presume that this was a case of an unstable or evil individual acting out of some motivation of his own.

Currently, there's no indication that any Muslim, let alone any Islamic terrorist organization or front, is in any way involved with this.

I know. It would be acceptable in casual conversation I suppose. Plus, we found out early on who the perp was and they should have removed that comment, IMO. Obviously the work of a sick mind in the end. Now, when I say sick mind I don't mean to say he wouldn't have been subject to some serious justice, but that's impossible at this point.

139 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:47:42pm

re: #113 Guanxi88

So, in other words, he said the major difference between the USA and the USSR was the difference in our economic, regulatory, and governmental systems? Wow. Who'da thunk it?

Heidegger; more proof that you should never, ever turn to a philosopher for practical advice.

140 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:48:10pm

re: #125 pat

Sorry, Pat. I have to disagree. The groups in Europe that Charles has educated us about are real, and they mean business. A nazi by any other name, be it neo, Vlaams Belang, etc., is still a spin off of the nazis of old.

And in spite of strong laws in Germany? They are now out in the open.

141 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:48:19pm

re: #134 rawmuse

According to Wiki, I am a "classical liberal"

Not a surprise, really. the "right" or conservative movement here in the states is the expression, politically, of the ideals and theories of the 18th century British Enlightenment; the modern left, to the extent it has roots prior to Marx (and it does) can be traced to the Continental Enlightenment.

The British Enlightenment yielded Adam Smith, and limited, republican government in the Enlgish-speaking world; the Continental Enlightenment yielded the Terror and the other atrocities of the French Revolution, and the Napoleonic Wars, as bloody and shameful a debacle as any in pre-WWI europe.

142 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:48:46pm
German Neo-Nazis Need Money

So does The Behemoth. Main difference: I promise to spend all donations on beer, pizza, and smokes. And maybe a speed metal album or two. Not a single penny will be spent on failed, fascist ideologies.

That's a promise. A promise written on a deposit slip, 'cuz you can take that to the bank.

143 traderjoe9  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:49:01pm

re: #133 NY Nana

Spot-on. And his decision that he and Shrillary, another Commie and Jew hater, will try to destroy Israel by dividing it. It is not Man's to divide or give away.

And it looks more likely every day that it will be Israel who goes after Iran, just as they did to Iraq in 1981. Can you even imagine what it would be like if they had not done this?

Among all his other flaws, The One is a blatant coward.

Yup. I'm certain that Israel has some plan in store for Iran...Israel pretty much has a plan for every military scenario possible. And with the US beginning to concede that Iran might end up developing nuclear weapons, its definitely looking like Israel will do something, especially with the new government.

One thing concerns me. Do you remember when Israeli agents poisoned Meshaal in Amman, and Netanyahu conceded to Clinton's demands to give the antidote? I'm afraid that Bibi will display the same type of weakness this time around. Hopefully Lieberman will keep him in check.

144 JHW  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:49:19pm

re: #132 Steffan

Here's an article on the royalties from Mein Kampf and some of the squabbles over them.
Mein Royalties

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:49:24pm

OT, Jameel has some information on the attack in Gush Etzion up.

Picture of the little boy who was killed.

Kid's the same age as my freshman English class, goddamnit.

Not coping with this one real well.

146 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:49:41pm

re: #126 JHW

From what I read in the German media at the time, there were quite strong counter protests against the Neo-nazis, near riot conditions.

They get a lot of young males, skinheads, and the like. Lots of tattoos and piercings. An odd bunch they are.

147 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:51:22pm

re: #132 Steffan

Didn't Hitler make a mint and a half from sales of Mein Kampf? ISTR that he was a legitimate (if that can be said about him) millionaire from the royalties. IIRC, he had a sister who survived WWII, but I don't think she was his heir.

What the heck happened to that money?

Maybe the German government could claim ownership of the copyright and get the proceeds from all of the sales in the ME. From what I hear, it's a very very popular book in the Muslim world.

OT: I sent an email to the Japanese Ambassador to the US, suggesting that, with all the crap the Norks and Chinese are pulling, they might want to disband the Joint-Self-Defense Forces and reinstate the IJN, IJA and IJAF.

Ya think that might make the Norks and Chinese shit a little green worm?

/ :)

Who gets the money from the current sales of Mein Kampf?

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:51:57pm

re: #142 Slumbering Behemoth

So does The Behemoth. Main difference: I promise to spend all donations on beer, pizza, and smokes. And maybe a speed metal album or two. Not a single penny will be spent on failed, fascist ideologies.

That's a promise. A promise written on a deposit slip, 'cuz you can take that to the bank.

If I had any money, dude...

Well, if I had any money, I would spend it all on beer and pizza myself. No smokes, but maybe a stack of mystery novels...

My mother spent a patient hour on the phone with me this evening, telling me that it was OK to ask various organizations for financial help, because the sooner I get back on my feet, the sooner I will be spending money and creating jobs for others. It was very soothing. Sort of Capitalism and the Safety Net, According to Your Mother.

149 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:52:05pm

re: #119 JHW

From Der Spiegel, Feb. 16;
Strong Neo-Nazi Showing in Dresden Heightens Concerns

Not strong enough.

Neo-Nazis were outnumbered by counter-demonstrators in Saturday's marches to mark the 64th anniversary of the fire-bombing of Dresden.

/it's the ratio.,not the numbers

150 rawmuse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:53:25pm

re: #141 Guanxi88

I am blessed to have known, and even dined with Milton Friedman.

151 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:53:46pm

re: #147 ggt

Who gets the money from the current sales of Mein Kampf?

Governments do. They assumed the copyrights in many countries to keep it from being published, but copies published for libraries etc. go to the German gov't in Germany, and I believe US gov't holds copyright here.

152 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:53:48pm

re: #139 lurking faith

So, in other words, he said the major difference between the USA and the USSR was the difference in our economic, regulatory, and governmental systems? Wow. Who'da thunk it?

Heidegger; more proof that you should never, ever turn to a philosopher for practical advice.

And these surface differences, he argued, showed an underlying unity of purpose; we differed on tactics, not strategy, was his point, and it is not immediately obvious, either, that this is so; but it is.

These systems grew out of the same fundamental assumptions. The Soviets were merely an off-shoot of the Enlightenment, albeit in a slightly different direction. Theoretically, and at the most basic level, we agreed with the Communists on a great many very important matters.

We both agreed that the purpose of science was the development of technology for the conquest of nature for the relief of the human condition. We believed that the world as given was wholly passive and fundamentally defective; we believed that the economy of scarcity that typified the pre-modern world was the result of failure to apply method to these problems, and that the full equality of all men was merely an engineering problem, etc. etc. To our ears, these don't sound like revolutionary principles or anything other than commonsense, but I assure you, for most of mankind's history, this has not been the understanding of the nature of things.

153 AmeriDan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:54:01pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

Not coping with this one real well.

{ { SanFranciscoZionist } }

154 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:54:11pm

re: #147 ggt

Who gets the money from the current sales of Mein Kampf?

Try this:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

155 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:54:16pm

re: #143 traderjoe9

Yup. I'm certain that Israel has some plan in store for Iran...Israel pretty much has a plan for every military scenario possible. And with the US beginning to concede that Iran might end up developing nuclear weapons, its definitely looking like Israel will do something, especially with the new government..

Yep.

/stop pimping my blog

156 clgood  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:54:17pm

A good reason to be concerned about Neo-Nazis, on the assumption they're anywhere close to the Nazis of the bad-old days, is that they are likely allies of Islamofacism. Look up the links between Hitler's guys and militant Islam.

They may be a fringe group now, but they were once before, too. And the rising power in Europe may just get along with them.

157 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:54:58pm

re: #150 rawmuse

I am blessed to have known, and even dined with Milton Friedman.

You smug, lucky, pipe-smoking bastard!
///

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:55:00pm

re: #153 AmeriDan

{ { SanFranciscoZionist } }

Thanks.

159 JHW  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:55:01pm

re: #146 Gus 802

I'll try to dig up the site put out by one of the German states showing Neo-Nazi regalia, tattoos, rock bands etc. It's put out as a warning to police and parents, kind of like gang symbols elsewhere. There was quite a convergence of some of these groups at a "rock concert" in Flanders last year when we discussed Vlaams Belang here.

160 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:55:34pm

re: #140 NY Nana

Sorry, Pat. I have to disagree. The groups in Europe that Charles has educated us about are real, and they mean business. A nazi by any other name, be it neo, Vlaams Belang, etc., is still a spin off of the nazis of old.

And in spite of strong laws in Germany? They are now out in the open.

They have been for decades. The NPD was founded in 1964. (They keep just away from the edge of being bannable.)

More troubling is that they are gaining power in some regions.

Some of their support, I assume, is from people concerned about the continuing rise of Islamism and not knowing where else to turn.

161 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:55:55pm

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

If I had any money, dude...

Well, if I had any money, I would spend it all on beer and pizza myself. No smokes, but maybe a stack of mystery novels...

Well, as long as you're spending it on the important things.

162 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:55:57pm

re: #151 Thanos

Governments do. They assumed the copyrights in many countries to keep it from being published, but copies published for libraries etc. go to the German gov't in Germany, and I believe US gov't holds copyright here.

thanks!

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:56:53pm

re: #161 Slumbering Behemoth

Well, as long as you're spending it on the important things.

Ah, always.

164 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:57:08pm

re: #159 JHW

I'll try to dig up the site put out by one of the German states showing Neo-Nazi regalia, tattoos, rock bands etc. It's put out as a warning to police and parents, kind of like gang symbols elsewhere. There was quite a convergence of some of these groups at a "rock concert" in Flanders last year when we discussed Vlaams Belang here.

Thanks. Hey, I was wondering. You ever notice that there seems to be an odd sexual tension between the neo-Nazis? It's the same as I noticed with the 3rd Reich. Oddly kinky at the same time. Like Goering who seemed like a complete flake and was in fact a drug addict.

165 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:57:37pm

re: #151 Thanos

Governments do. They assumed the copyrights in many countries to keep it from being published, but copies published for libraries etc. go to the German gov't in Germany, and I believe US gov't holds copyright here.

hmmm, now that has me wondering. Another form of income the Federal Government has that we don't normally think of. The perception is that the Fed get's all it's money from individual and corporate income taxes. But, there is more, much more. Any idea on were one can find a line-item tallying of these various sources of income?

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:59:00pm

I'm going to head to bed. I have a job fair to hit in the morning.

I hate job hunting, but my current boss is giving me a ride to this job fair. How cool is that? (He must either love me, or really wish I would find another job.)

167 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:59:08pm

re: #122 clgood

I am not familiar with the gentleman, but it's obvious he was a left-winger. Only a blinkered leftie could say the USA and the USSR were hard to distinguish, and his use of the D-word (distributed) seals the deal. The biggest difference is that wealth in the USSR was distributed, and wealth in the USA was created.

See, Heidegger defies political definition; he came at it from an entirely different perspective (he was, sad to say, a Nazi for a while). He doesn't mean distribution in the sense of collecting it all up and then handing it around by state effort; he means, rather, the movement of these goods, by whichever mechanism. The market distributes goods more efficiently, and with less disruption to the rights of others, than state actin, but both are simply different ways to move things to people.

168 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:59:26pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to head to bed. I have a job fair to hit in the morning.

I hate job hunting, but my current boss is giving me a ride to this job fair. How cool is that? (He must either love me, or really wish I would find another job.)

Good luck.

169 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:59:26pm

re: #154 Gus 802

Try this:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

thanks!

170 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 10:59:41pm

re: #136 Guanxi88

Well, I'm not pleased to see them, either way; sure as Hell don't like the reds and anarchists slugging it out with them, but am pleased if these destructive types can be induced to bleed while taking chunks out of each other.

I'm sure the Social Democrats and Nationalists thought the same way in 1930...

I don't like this. Violence in the streets, the breakdown of public order; it has this bad habit of sapping the public spirit of a culture. It has this bad habit of grooming would-be strongmen.

171 AmeriDan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:00:31pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

Good night.

Best wishes for the job fair.

172 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:00:35pm

re: #116 Gus 802

I shudder, and truthfully fear for the future. What it will do to our kids, grandkids, and future generations? I am not optimistic, as this is, IMHO, the very worst nightmare, AKA government, in my lifetime...I was born in 1938.

I do think that there is an ever-increasing growth in cases of buyers' remorse on the part of those who were blind enough to vote for The One, but that is 5 months too late...and no, I would not be happier with Shrillary. She is as much a menace as Hussein.

And now we have her as Sec. of State. Ugh.

173 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:01:17pm

re: #168 Gus 802

Good luck.

SanFranciscoZionist --I second that "Good Luck!"

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:01:34pm

re: #168 Gus 802

Good luck.

Thank you. It's a Catholic schools job fair--I'm hoping that someone is just dying for an English teacher. Or a history teacher. I will also teach religion. I will teach biology if I have to. I will coach the football team. I don't understand how football is played, but I can get a book...

175 Steffan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:01:37pm

re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist

What would you define as 'right wing'? Just curious--please, other people throw in your definitions. Is there such a thing as the 'far right'? What characterizes it?

My vision of this is basically a circle. The right side of the circle is conservative, the left side of the circle is liberal (these labels come from the French National Assembly, btw -- otherwise, they are meaningless). The far right and the far left... merge. They want exactly the same thing, but their labels are different.

The far right is, most likely, religious fundamentalism. The most blatant version of that extant at the moment is Islamism, but other religions have participated in the past (most infamously, the Spanish Inquisition).

The far left is Fascism, Communism, and National Socialism. Mussolini considered himself to be a Socialist until the day he died, and he edited the Italian Socialist newspaper until he switched to Fascism. Hitler and Stalin found much in common (such as Poland, but that's another story). Hitler's main objection to Stalin was based upon race, not ideology.

In 1920s Germany, Nazis and Communists were fighting over exactly the same turf with exactly the same outlook and methods. Naziism became right-wing and reactionary when Hitler broke with Stalin. It was convenient for Stalin that Naziism should be identified with the Right. At least three generations of "useful idiots" have parrotted that viewpoint.

176 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:02:02pm

Hrmm. You can get it from Amazon, so at some point the US gov. gave up rights or something? I think Bavaria owns the German version.

177 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:02:30pm

re: #170 Zimriel

I'm sure the Social Democrats and Nationalists thought the same way in 1930...

I don't like this. Violence in the streets, the breakdown of public order; it has this bad habit of sapping the public spirit of a culture. It has this bad habit of grooming would-be strongmen.

That's why I hate to see any of these menaces to order and peace in the open. If they are out there, though, they should at least do some good by fighting each other, so as to leave decent people alone for a while.

178 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:02:46pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

Thank you. It's a Catholic schools job fair--I'm hoping that someone is just dying for an English teacher. Or a history teacher. I will also teach religion. I will teach biology if I have to. I will coach the football team. I don't understand how football is played, but I can get a book...

Sounds like you have a lot to offer to them. You could always find something online about football. ;)

179 rawmuse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:02:48pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

Good luck!

180 KingKenrod  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:03:35pm

re: #165 ggt

hmmm, now that has me wondering. Another form of income the Federal Government has that we don't normally think of. The perception is that the Fed get's all it's money from individual and corporate income taxes. But, there is more, much more. Any idea on were one can find a line-item tallying of these various sources of income?

The feds could make trillions just by selling US owned land to the private sector. They own 30% of all US territory.

181 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:04:14pm

re: #164 Gus 802

Thanks. Hey, I was wondering. You ever notice that there seems to be an odd sexual tension between the neo-Nazis? It's the same as I noticed with the 3rd Reich. Oddly kinky at the same time. Like Goering who seemed like a complete flake and was in fact a drug addict.

It's the power-worship; it brings out the "chips, dips, chains & whips" set.

Hitler noticed it too. That's why he had a lot of Nazis offed in the Night of the Long Knives, because they were making the Party look bad.

182 tradewind  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:04:36pm

re: #155 Killian Bundy

That was part of what struck me about the article I linked above, that Israel has historically been willing to protect herself without waiting for help that may not ever come from faint-hearted supporters... (for example, America in 1947 and 1948,,,, I had no idea that the US had urged Israel to ' wait ' on the formation of a state and had refused any arms help). Osirak is a more recent example.
Osirak,Part Deux, seems a pretty good bet in the not-too distant future.

183 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:04:54pm

They just busted a nazi youth camp in Germany as well, HBJ or something like that, a group that's probably met or mixed with the Youth groups from VB. (they have an annual outing every summer where all the neo fascist org youth groups get together)

184 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:05:44pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to head to bed. I have a job fair to hit in the morning.

I hate job hunting, but my current boss is giving me a ride to this job fair. How cool is that? (He must either love me, or really wish I would find another job.)


Damn....I had to drive myself to the last job fair I went to. I barely got a half mile down the road when I spilled coffee all over my pants, so I promptly turned around, found another pair of pants, washed and ironed them and by the time I showed up, most of the companies I was looking to hire on with had left, apparently having already made their quota. Some of them were thoughtful enough to leave behind some pretty comprehensive printed materiels that answered alot of my questions.

Nightey night!

185 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:06:01pm

re: #172 NY Nana

I shudder, and truthfully fear for the future. What it will do to our kids, grandkids, and future generations? I am not optimistic, as this is, IMHO, the very worst nightmare, AKA government, in my lifetime...I was born in 1938.

I do think that there is an ever-increasing growth in cases of buyers' remorse on the part of those who were blind enough to vote for The One, but that is 5 months too late...and no, I would not be happier with Shrillary. She is as much a menace as Hussein.

And now we have her as Sec. of State. Ugh.

It's unfortunate. Some of the effects will be "set in place" due to Obama's pacifist leanings: North Korea, Iran, etc. By not facing the hard choices we have now he will effectively allow those nations to build a nuclear capability which would only take one high megaton delivery to cause massive casualties. There is some hope in Netanyahu and his recent comment to the effect of "do something now or we will." Russia I think will take advantage of us.

186 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:06:14pm

re: #143 traderjoe9

Yup. I'm certain that Israel has some plan in store for Iran...Israel pretty much has a plan for every military scenario possible. And with the US beginning to concede that Iran might end up developing nuclear weapons, its definitely looking like Israel will do something, especially with the new government.

One thing concerns me. Do you remember when Israeli agents poisoned Meshaal in Amman, and Netanyahu conceded to Clinton's demands to give the antidote? I'm afraid that Bibi will display the same type of weakness this time around. Hopefully Lieberman will keep him in check.

We are on the same page with all of that, and yes, I remember, adn am concerned re Bibi. I just do not trust his motives, but would hope he has learned something in the intervening years since he was first PM.

Lieberman seems to be strong, but only time will tell, and Israel cannot afford to waste any time. The walls seem to be closing in every day.

187 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:06:18pm

re: #165 ggt

hmmm, now that has me wondering. Another form of income the Federal Government has that we don't normally think of. The perception is that the Fed get's all it's money from individual and corporate income taxes. But, there is more, much more. Any idea on were one can find a line-item tallying of these various sources of income?

Apparently that was just during wartime, you can get it on Amazon now.

188 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:06:55pm

re: #152 Guanxi88

I understand the point about the underlying assumptions, really.

People need stuff and want stuff. We can make our lives better, and it's ok to do things to the world for that purpose. (By the way, I'm not sure I'd agree that we consider the world as given "defective." Capable of improvement, or of more efficient use, yes.)

But I don't see the US as intending to engineer full equality for everybody. Equality before the law is not the same thing as having essentially equal lives and comforts.

189 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:07:42pm

re: #182 tradewind

Osirak,Part Deux, seems a pretty good bet in the not-too distant future.

/except they won't use manned aircraft this ttime

190 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:08:20pm

Here we go, it was HDJ

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

191 Steffan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:08:48pm

re: #183 Thanos

They just busted a nazi youth camp in Germany as well, HBJ or something like that, a group that's probably met or mixed with the Youth groups from VB. (they have an annual outing every summer where all the neo fascist org youth groups get together)

I don't think I'm the only one worrying about the form the Obamajugend will take.

I think the only real difference is that Obama isn't worried about matching the Aryan stereotype.

192 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:08:58pm

re: #181 Zimriel

It's the power-worship; it brings out the "chips, dips, chains & whips" set.

Hitler noticed it too. That's why he had a lot of Nazis offed in the Night of the Long Knives, because they were making the Party look bad.

"Chips, dips, chains & whips." Sounds accurate. The garb and the way they pranced around in their uniforms. Sometimes I wonder if it was something about a love for the "Uberman" which went too far for some of the members.

193 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:09:00pm

re: #183 Thanos

They just busted a nazi youth camp in Germany as well, HBJ or something like that, a group that's probably met or mixed with the Youth groups from VB. (they have an annual outing every summer where all the neo fascist org youth groups get together)

If I could give an award for "Dumbest Parents in Europe", I'd have to grant it to any fool willing to let their kid go to one of these shindigs. Chances that the poor boy will get propositioned by some sweaty 54 year old skinhead "troop leader" are, I would wager, above the 15% range.

194 Steffan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:11:41pm

re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to head to bed. I have a job fair to hit in the morning.

I hate job hunting, but my current boss is giving me a ride to this job fair. How cool is that? (He must either love me, or really wish I would find another job.)

Check usajobs.opm.gov. This lists every open Federal job in the country.

With the Obamaabteilung gathering power, there will be more jobs available.

195 Summer Seale  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:12:00pm

re: #58 zombie

Just because they had the word "Socialism" in their name does not mean they qualify as "left-wing." In fact, in modern terms, the Italian Fascist party is kind of the prototypical definition of what constitutes "far right-wing." By extension, any close allies of the Fascists -- such as the Nazis -- are defined as "far right-wing." Like it or not, that the way things go. It would be nigh-on impossible to change popular consensus at this stage. I think that the average middle-of-the-road American Democrat is no more pleased by the fact that Stalinism and the Khmer Rouge are dubbed "left-wing" either. Each "side" has its embarrassing extremists.

However, this does bring up a good point: If the left/right dichotomy was devised in 1792, and the Italian fascists didn't come along until 1919, what were the defining features of "right-wingism" in the period between 1792 and 1919? The left had Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels to come along in the 1840s to define the Left's ideology, but what did the "right" have? Nothing so definitive.

I've always thought of Chauvin as the sort of original prototypical right-winger, but I don't even know if he's now classified as such.

As for me, I utterly reject the left/right dichotomy, but I've ranted about that so much already I'll give everyone a break.

Monarchists. =)

Left/Right was defined, as you mentioned, in 1792 - the physical location of each "wing" in the house of assembly in Paris after the revolution. When Danton was beheaded, I think he was looked upon as somebody who defected from the left to the right. But I think in actuality the left and right were those who were strongly in the revolutionary camp and those who were more moderate, but I really can't be sure atm. (meaning those who wanted more beheadings and those who would tend to vote against them)


However, as all things "French" and "revolution", it gets really murky. =)

I could be entirely wrong, but that's what happens after I come back from a few drinks. =)

196 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:13:29pm

From the story: "The penalty stems from incorrect NPD claims about the size of the party coffers. In anticipation of the fine, the German parliament withheld a €300,000 transfer to the party in February — meaning the NPD must now come up with €2.2 million in just four weeks."

This is part and parcel of the entire problem. Germany's political system allows for parties to get a subsidy from the government coffers. That creates an incentive for marginal wing-nuts of all stripes to form political parties, just to cash in on the available money. If a little bit of seed money from true believers enables them to get some votes, then the party essentially gets paid, out of the national treasury, for those votes.

Canada currently has such a scheme in place, which was put in place by the former Liberal (leftist) government. The present minority Conservative government proposed, in its budget proposal last Fall, to eliminate this subsidy, and the left-wing parties (comprising the Liberals, New Democrats, Greens, and Bloc Quebecois) went apoplectic, threatening to bring down the minority and impose an N-D/Liberal coalition with guaranteed BQ support.

Folks, there must be no such thing as government subsidies to political parties in a democracy. It's a pernicious idea, that is fundamentally anti-democratic. There should be one source, and only one source for political campaign financing: direct donations from individual citizens. And there should be a ceiling, and a fairly low ceiling, on the amount any individual can give, say a thousand dollars. One of the root causes of corruption is the fact that some individuals or corporations are able to give huge sums of money to help elect certain politicians.

197 Guanxi88  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:13:42pm

re: #188 lurking faith

I understand the point about the underlying assumptions, really.

People need stuff and want stuff. We can make our lives better, and it's ok to do things to the world for that purpose. (By the way, I'm not sure I'd agree that we consider the world as given "defective." Capable of improvement, or of more efficient use, yes.)

But I don't see the US as intending to engineer full equality for everybody. Equality before the law is not the same thing as having essentially equal lives and comforts.

Well, the world must be defective to some extent if the technological conquest of nature (and this has been the project of the Enlightenment since the word "go' and even before, in the days of Bacon and Machiavelli) has been the goal. If the world does not give up enough resources to meet our needs, and if we must so modify the world as to make these resources available, then the world is defective, as it fails to meet our needs.

Equality before the law is a different thing than equality of physical possessions; true enough, and this is one of the things that distinguishes the communist branch from our own; but they are related. Again, ask a Buddhist to explain the difference between the USSR and the USA; he could, only in the most general of terms, and it is not entirely impossible that he would never fully grasp or articulate it; he would be an outsider, and to an outsider, they are both simply late-Enlightenment/Early Modern socio-political movements with an emphasis on economics and technology. he could see the distinction, but probably not the difference. Again, this is why the Afghan mujaheddin so readily turned their weapons on us, after we had for so many years backed them in their fight against the Soviets. To them, we were roughly the same, and they hate us for many of the reasons they hated the Soviets

198 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:15:39pm

re: #185 Gus 802

It's unfortunate. Some of the effects will be "set in place" due to Obama's pacifist leanings: North Korea, Iran, etc. By not facing the hard choices we have now he will effectively allow those nations to build a nuclear capability which would only take one high megaton delivery to cause massive casualties. There is some hope in Netanyahu and his recent comment to the effect of "do something now or we will." Russia I think will take advantage of us.

Russia must be smirking, as are a lot of countries, as they perceive the weaknesses in The One, and his seeming total lack of a single clue. It is like buying a toy for a child that is way too young to even start assembling it, never mind using it. And in this case, the classic political machine in Chicago has turned out a 2-year old in the place of an adult. Hell, he doesn't even seem to know what to do with a Tele-prompter, never mind what he does without one.

He is a luxury we cannot afford.

And Bibi is now in the most important time of his life, and he must make a decision that could either destroy a mutual enemy, or wait too long.

I really have to start getting ready to go to sleep....

199 Steffan  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:16:13pm

re: #184 Fenway_Nation

That sucks and gives change.

Like I said upthread: usajobs.opm.gov. With the Obamabots in power, they will be hiring.

200 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:17:18pm

re: #198 NY Nana

I honestly thought there would at least be a surgical strike on Iranian facilities late last year. That may happen in the short term.

Good night.

201 Summer Seale  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:18:18pm

Yes, I just looked it up and I remembered correctly: Right Wing were basically monarchists. So if you wanted an extreme right-wing example from that time period, it would have been people who wanted to do away entirely with the revolution and bring back the Monarchy with all privileges restored for the ruling classes.

But if they were that extreme and vocal in their beliefs, chances are they had a little appointment with Dr. Guillotine's "humane" invention after a day or two. =)

202 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:20:01pm

re: #182 tradewind

Please see this comment I posted.

203 rawmuse  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:20:38pm

re: #199 Steffan

Hey, an opening for a Predator Pilot.

I wonder if prior experience is necessary.

205 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:21:10pm

OT

The other night I posted some Mitch Miller videos. He's still alive! 97 years old.

206 NY Nana  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:21:37pm

re: #200 Gus 802

I honestly thought there would at least be a surgical strike on Iranian facilities late last year. That may happen in the short term.

Good night.

It will happen in the short term, I think, and I also fear, as Israel will go it alone.

G'nite, all! Sweet dreams.

207 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:22:10pm

re: #203 rawmuse

Hey, an opening for a Predator Pilot.

I wonder if prior experience is necessary.

/gots to be a pilot, as it should be

208 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:22:42pm

re: #197 Guanxi88

We are using different definitions of defective, I see.

It seems to me that if you consider the world defective if we need to modify the environment in order to have it produce what we need, then humans have been viewing the world as defective since the dawn of agriculture. Or the first shelter somebody built to keep out the rain/cold/blistering sun/predatory animals.

209 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:22:57pm

re: #207 Killian Bundy

/gots to be a pilot, as it should be

/FSX

210 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:23:55pm

re: #203 rawmuse

Hey, an opening for a Predator Pilot.

I wonder if prior experience is necessary.

Do you play flight simulator video games?

211 JHW  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:24:09pm

From the SPLC, Neo-Nazi Tattoos and Symbols

From the ADL A Visual Database of Extremist Symbols, Logos and Tattoos

From Deutsche Welle, use of swastikas by left-wing movements,
Stuttgart Seeks to Ban Anti-Fascist Symbols

212 lurking faith  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:24:34pm

I just hit the wall. Good night, all.

213 MrPaulRevere  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:25:08pm

I'd wager 25% of the membership are in reality police informants. Hopefully the German cops took a page from the FBI re. how they dealt with the Klan.

214 freetoken  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:26:17pm

re: #197 Guanxi88

Well, the world must be defective to some extent if the technological conquest of nature (and this has been the project of the Enlightenment since the word "go' and even before, in the days of Bacon and Machiavelli) has been the goal.

"six degrees of Kevin Bacon" ?

215 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:26:46pm

re: #213 MrPaulRevere

I'd wager 25% of the membership are in reality police informants. Hopefully the German cops took a page from the FBI re. how they dealt with the Klan.

/Germans aren't known for their sense of humor, and I'm half German

216 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:29:26pm

re: #211 JHW

An odd milieu of goth, punk, and skinhead style and design.

217 tradewind  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:29:35pm

re: #202 NY Nana

Thanks..... just reinforces my belief that it is going to happen, and that it probably has to.
I wonder if in some crazy way this plays into Ahmadimjihadi's belief in the necessary chaos prior to the appearance of the twelth imam, and the sicko welcomes a strike?

218 JHW  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:31:21pm

re: #183 Thanos

Thanos, I think the name of that group you mentioned is Blut und Ehre, which means Blood and Honor and also happened to be the slogan of the Hitler Youth. It's also seen on the tattoos I mentioned, in Germany and elsewhere in the skinhead realm.

219 leereyno  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:32:47pm

Uhhh.... since when was Socialism a "Far-Right" agenda?

Calling a New fangled version of the National Socialist German Worker's Party "Far Right" demonstrates profound ignorance of the original old fangled version.

But then it is a form of ignorance that many people are guilty of, all thanks to the never-silent drum beat of leftist propaganda which casts the Nazis as "right wing" precisely because so many of their policies and agendas are far too close to that of the leftists today for comfort. Any far right wing party that thinks it is taking inspiration from the Nazi party/ideology has fallen prey to leftist propaganda that inaccurately describes what the Nazi party was all about.

The struggle in Germany between the Communists and the Nazis that predated WW-II was not a struggle between the left and right which the latter ultimately won, but between two leftists ideologies whose antagonism towards each other was a direct result of their deep similarities.

If two ideologies are polar opposites, it is easy for them to coexist. But when they are all but identical, then they invariably go to war. Protestants vs Catholics, Sunnis vs Shiites and Nazis vs Communists. Same story, different religions. Meanwhile there are no such struggles between Shintoism and Catholicism, or between Buddhism and the southern baptist convention.

The next time some leftist twit (but I repeat myself) calls you a Nazi because you won't sign onto their Gramscian bullshit, just look at them in puzzlement and say in all sincerity: "What? I'm not a Socialist!" Odds are they won't have any idea what you are talking about.

220 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:35:20pm

re: #196 Alberta Oil Peon


By the way, how goes the bullion shopping, AOP?

Thought this page might be of interest to you...

221 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:37:10pm

re: #40 mikeymom

ok--hubby and i read police/detective fiction books--they always talk about the smell of decaying bodies and how, once tou smell it you never forget the smell. has any lizard actually smelled it?

the smell of rotting flesh is pretty much unique, and, if you w*rk in certain parts of the pharmacy world, you get to smell it daily, in the form of amino acid solutions......

i've also come across a dead body here in RL, and yes, they smell the same.

nasty.

222 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:37:25pm

re: #187 Thanos

Apparently that was just during wartime, you can get it on Amazon now.

right, but someone makes money on it.

223 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:39:57pm

re: #220 Fenway_Nation

By the way, how goes the bullion shopping, AOP?

Thought this page might be of interest to you...

Thanks, Fenway, I've got it bookmarked.

I won't do any actual shopping until I'm out of the bush and home for a few days. If I can't buy the gold I want over the counter in Calgary, then I might consider on-line sources. The source you linked is in Auburn, WA, and I have a trip to WA on the agenda already, so that bears looking into.

224 freetoken  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:40:49pm

re: #219 leereyno

Technically you may have a point, but one which might be too subtle for many people and thus be lost on the crowd (for whom most articles are written.)

If we go with the idea that "right wing" is a term for pro-monarchists (see various comments above), then one could say that the few "right wing" groups in world governments today would be the pro House of Saud folk on the Arabian peninsula, and the "gold shirt-ists" in Thailand, etc. Oh, and don't forget the Theonomists ("No King but King Jesus".)

But again, this is a distinction that would be lost on the majority of readers of blogs, newspapers, etc.

225 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:42:47pm

Guliani appears on Glenn Beck. Might as well be Banana Splits

/how many more FNC contributors will FNC march to their humiliation?

226 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:43:25pm

re: #223 Alberta Oil Peon

Thanks, Fenway, I've got it bookmarked.

I won't do any actual shopping until I'm out of the bush and home for a few days. If I can't buy the gold I want over the counter in Calgary, then I might consider on-line sources. The source you linked is in Auburn, WA, and I have a trip to WA on the agenda already, so that bears looking into.

and then you can get arrested and have it confiscated coming back across the border!

/black helicopter

227 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:45:13pm

re: #224 freetoken

Technically you may have a point, but one which might be too subtle for many people and thus be lost on the crowd (for whom most articles are written.)

If we go with the idea that "right wing" is a term for pro-monarchists (see various comments above), then one could say that the few "right wing" groups in world governments today would be the pro House of Saud folk on the Arabian peninsula, and the "gold shirt-ists" in Thailand, etc. Oh, and don't forget the Theonomists ("No King but King Jesus".)

But again, this is a distinction that would be lost on the majority of readers of blogs, newspapers, etc.

Pro-monarchists -vs - Con-monarchists?

Federalists vs. Anti-Federalists.

The problem here is that today's moonbats WANT a king --and they are leftists.

I equate Monarchy with Nanny-State. SomeONE in charge, someone to take care of everything, make the decisions and tell us what to do.

If I were a practicing Catholic I'd give-up labels for Lent.

228 The Other Les  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:45:42pm

I just got in here because I can't sleep.

I'm sorry Charles, but I'm going to have to call you out on something.

If there is one myth that I would really like to bury, it is the myth that National Socialism is a right wing ideology, and that the NSDAP and those in the present day who seek to emulate them are right wing parties.

Quote:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

President Barack Obama could repeat the above statement word for word and no one, in the usual leftist audience, or the Main Stream Media, would call him out on it.

And here are some of the planks of the 25 point program of the NSDAP:

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.

10. It must be the first duty of every citizen to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash with the general interest, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:

11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

Gosh, doesn't that sound familiar?

The myth that National Socialism is a right wing ideology basically originated in the basement of the Kremlin and has continued to be repeated by those who are embarrassed about their German ideological relatives.

Seriously, if the Left were seriously and openly called out on this they would either have to drop their beliefs or bust their collective backsides to rehabilitate Hitler and the NSDAP.

229 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:45:56pm

did I miss RW tonite? RW, are you here?

230 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:46:01pm

re: #223 Alberta Oil Peon

I think the markup is lower w/this Auburn outfit if you show up in person, too. I haven't really been in a position to try or anything...

231 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:46:20pm

re: #226 redc1c4

and then you can get arrested and have it confiscated coming back across the border!

/black helicopter

Uh, no. Canadians have always been able to own gold, AFAIK. The beloved leader FDR took that right away from you guys, until it was restored, quite recently.

Now I wouldn't want to be carrying more than $10,000 across the line, either way.

232 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:47:52pm

re: #229 ggt

did I miss RW tonite? RW, are you here?

/he got hectored yesterday

233 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:48:22pm

re: #232 Killian Bundy

/he got hectored yesterday

Do I want to ask?

234 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:49:42pm

re: #228 The Other Les

It gets tricky when you get near the moronic convergence of left and right. Was communism really that different from national socialism? no, not really. The difference traditionally comes from the direction they came from to arrive at the moronic convergence. I get a little uncomfortable with the "liberal fascism" thing because it starts to approach historical revisionism. It is what it is.

235 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:49:42pm

re: #233 ggt

Do I want to ask?

/probably not

236 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:50:37pm

re: #235 Killian Bundy

/probably not

You probably are right. It's late and I have to leave soon anyway.

237 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:51:16pm

Carlism

238 Gus  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:52:02pm

Francisco Franco

239 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:53:26pm

re: #231 Alberta Oil Peon

Uh, no. Canadians have always been able to own gold, AFAIK. The beloved leader FDR took that right away from you guys, until it was restored, quite recently.

Now I wouldn't want to be carrying more than $10,000 across the line, either way.

better hope the market doesn't fluctuate after you buy then.....

/white smoke

240 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:53:47pm

re: #232 Killian Bundy

/he got hectored yesterday

RW?

241 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:53:54pm

re: #234 Killgore Trout

It gets tricky when you get near the moronic convergence of left and right. Was communism really that different from national socialism? no, not really. The difference traditionally comes from the direction they came from to arrive at the moronic convergence. I get a little uncomfortable with the "liberal fascism" thing because it starts to approach historical revisionism. It is what it is.

Well, there really is no disputing the fact that Walter Duranty of the New York Times, useful idiot extraordinaire, helped Stalin spread the meme that Naziism was a right-wing phenomenon.

Goldberg, in Liberal Fascism, makes the point that back in the 1920s, when the Reds and the Brownshirts were slugging it out in the streets of Germany, that it was essentially a battle over market share. They were both peddling the same shit to the same client base.

242 Killian Bundy  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:54:58pm

re: #240 redc1c4

RW?

/by the same person who hectored you

243 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:58:18pm

weet dreams all!

244 freetoken  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:59:40pm

re: #227 ggt


If I were a practicing Catholic I'd give-up labels for Lent.

Yes, our labels we so conveniently toss around are failing us... but trying to get more accuracy tends to fail. Or has so far.

245 Syrah  Fri, Apr 3, 2009 11:59:59pm

A parting thought for the Lizards.

An optimist believes that this is the best of all possible worlds.

A pessimist is worried that the above might well be true.

Goodnight all.

246 freetoken  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 12:02:41am

re: #243 ggt

weet dreams all!

re: #245 Syrah

A parting thought for the Lizards.

Goodnight all.

Sweet Dreams for you...

Youtube Video
247 The Other Les  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 12:10:44am

re: #241 Alberta Oil Peon

Well, there really is no disputing the fact that Walter Duranty of the New York Times, useful idiot extraordinaire, helped Stalin spread the meme that Naziism was a right-wing phenomenon.

Goldberg, in Liberal Fascism, makes the point that back in the 1920s, when the Reds and the Brownshirts were slugging it out in the streets of Germany, that it was essentially a battle over market share. They were both peddling the same shit to the same client base.

"If anything, the Nazi-Soviet War of 1941-1945 could be characterized as a drive-by shooting carried out on an industrial scale." -- Leslie Bates

248 Sacred Plants  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 4:34:00am

Khamenei will assign developement aid, if they ask politely.

249 SixDegrees  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 4:35:49am

re: #3 Kosh's Shadow

Anyone have any Reichmarks they want to donate?

I added their name to the Nigerian Email Solicitation Council's mailing list.

250 Sacred Plants  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 4:41:39am

re: #58 zombie

However, this does bring up a good point: If the left/right dichotomy was devised in 1792, and the Italian fascists didn't come along until 1919, what were the defining features of "right-wingism" in the period between 1792 and 1919? The left had Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels to come along in the 1840s to define the Left's ideology, but what did the "right" have? Nothing so definitive.

Metternich and Bismarck come to mind, as pioneers of fascists taking the place of the aristocrats. The defining feature of European culture at that time was emigration.

251 RandomUK  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 5:37:49am

Right-wing neo-Nazis? Surely left-wing! Nazi is a contraction of National Socialist, and they were genuine socialists.

Can we stop this equating of racism with the right wing? Some people from all sides are racists, but actually studies show that people who agree with the policies for wealth redistribution (i.e. socialism) are more likely to agree with racist policies than those who disagree with the wealth redistribution.

252 Pupdawg  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 6:03:32am

Maybe Code Pink can send 'em some funds or Obama can bailout their money problems, too. Hell, why not...we're miraculously, suddenly, flush with free money.

...and while we are on the subject of money problems, why hasn't the MSM, the Matrix reported on the tremendous cost for the Obama G20 and European vacation trip? The US President's staff for the trip is over 500 people and a cool dozen teleprompters as he preaches gloom and doom back home and America's key role in the collapse of the world's economy. He says we are largely to blame as he hands our financial future over to European regulatory control. It is easy to see the 'Euro' headed to America now that TOTUS has paved the way for 'change' controlled by others abroad here.

253 yma o hyd  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 6:31:46am

Financial 'irregularities' will always be the downfall of villains, be it the NPD (couldn't happen to more 'deserving' people!) or Al Capone.

Highly satisfactory, and will be even better if they have to disband because the can't pay the penalties.

Frankly - something like that will convince citizens of the worthlessness of those Naiz far more than any amount of learned articles.
Financial dishonesty is something everybody can understand, and reject - and its hard to live down if you want to prosper as politician.

Excuse me while I snigger ..

254 bill-tb  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 6:34:43am

Does anyone else find the leftards them that the NAZIs are rightest to get tiring?

There isn't a dimes worth of difference between between the Fasctsist, the NAZIs the Communists or the Socialists. They are all strains of the same retarded leftists STATIST crap holes.

Far right is anarchy ... No government whatsoever.

Here is a good video on the subject: [Link: www.wimp.com...] it is a must watch for all Americans.

255 hellosnackbar  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 7:45:11am

Re#175 Stefan and others,
Stefan your explanation is exactly right.Political epithets such as left and right in terms of a spectrum ,are inaccurate and very misleading.
Both communism and fascism embrace state control to create robotic believers within their respective communities .Islam is the best example of fascism and North Korea the best example for communism ;although they are in a sense both tyranical ideologies.(plus ca change etc.)
As a resident of Germany for thirteen years I can tell you that fascist pricks come under serious scrutiny and that every available opportunity
to marginalise them is taken.(most germans do not want any repeat of the past).
However they seem to be having a small problem with Islamists.
But knowing the Germans, if the latter continue to cause social problems
then sometime in the future they'll also be "discouraged".
The codified system of criminal law paradoxically permits this.
The one thing Germans are most careful about is anything less than complementary appearing in the "foriegn "press.

256 RandomUK  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 9:18:47am

Mmmmm. Reckon I should read more of the comments before posting my own. Sorry guys! GOod to see others are aware of the myth of the racist right.

257 Colonel Panik  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 9:21:56am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Oh Noes! AntiIslamization nirth certifikit haz been eated again!

This is a rather stupid comment, as the NPD is not anti-Islam, at least not when it comes to international alliances. They actually like Ahmadinejad, and have praised him for threatening to wipe Israel off the map. They may give lip service to ending Islamic immigration to Germany, but they are willing to ally with foreign Islamists, just like Heinrich Himmler welcomed Haj Amin Al-Husseini and his Bosnian Muslim recruits into the SS.

258 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 9:39:35am

re: #228 The Other Les

I just got in here because I can't sleep.

I'm sorry Charles, but I'm going to have to call you out on something.

If there is one myth that I would really like to bury, it is the myth that National Socialism is a right wing ideology, and that the NSDAP and those in the present day who seek to emulate them are right wing parties.

The simple fact is that they define themselves as right wing. And it would be foolish to describe them as "far left" parties, when there are real far left parties in Europe who specialize in fighting against the neo-Nazis. There's no way you can characterize the NPD as "far left." It just doesn't work.

Sorry, you may not like it -- but "far right" is exactly what they are. And in the US as well, the fascist goals of groups like the Council of Conservative Citizens and their fellow travelers like Pat Buchanan et al, are tied to far right ideologies and parties.

259 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 9:48:20am

If you research the history of National Socialism in Germany, it's extremely clear that most of the allies of the Nazis were right wing. The term "National Socialism" does not imply that they believed in Marxist socialism at all; the more relevant part of their name is "National." They were extreme nationalists, who fetishized their Aryan heritage and demonized Jews and other "alien" groups.

260 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 11:19:44am

This "Nazis were lefties" meme needs to be demolished before it becomes a defining feature of the American right.

The reality is that both sides of the political spectrum have extremists and they are both capable of perpetrating great evils. As in the case of left wing ideologues who like to pretend that there is no serious wrong on their side, and that Russian totalitarianism etc was a purely fascist enterprise, the silliness of claims from the right that Hitler and the Nazis were lefties is obvious to anyone not blinded by partisanship.

261 descolada9  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 11:20:17am

And why is the German government paying for the party's administrative costs? Dear God, don't let the Dems get wind of that or we'll not only be paying the ACLU to destroy our liberties, we'll be paying the DNC as well!

262 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 11:24:03am

re: #251 RandomUK

Right-wing neo-Nazis? Surely left-wing! Nazi is a contraction of National Socialist, and they were genuine socialists.

Can we stop this equating of racism with the right wing? Some people from all sides are racists, but actually studies show that people who agree with the policies for wealth redistribution (i.e. socialism) are more likely to agree with racist policies than those who disagree with the wealth redistribution.

Where would you place the BNP on the political spectrum, out of interest?

263 Zimriel  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 11:46:54am

re: #259 Charles

If you research the history of National Socialism in Germany, it's extremely clear that most of the allies of the Nazis were right wing.

This is true, given the German spectrum of left-right. The Nazis got their working Parliamentary majority by hooking up with the Nationalists, who were the party of the "junkers" (quasi-feudal lawnowners, mostly in eastern Prussia).

But note that the Nazis screwed over the Nationalists too. They positioned themselves as the only force between the Junkers and the, ah, pitchforks. Ahem.

The term "National Socialism" does not imply that they believed in Marxist socialism at all; the more relevant part of their name is "National." They were extreme nationalists, who fetishized their Aryan heritage and demonized Jews and other "alien" groups.

I'd call the Nazis a heresy of Bismarckianism. Bismarck had a better claim to the title "national socialist" than Hitler did. He was the inspiration to other national socialists. He had diluted the power of the Junkers - the "right wing" - in his day.

Also, Bismarck wasn't a racist (at least, not in the standards of the left-right spectrum in his place and time). Whereas the Nazis really were way out there in their racism by German standards in, well, any age. Racism was an innovation in German politics; the old-school Right in Germany was Catholic and Lutheran, and did their discriminating against religious and linguistic minorities. Assimilation was real; millions of Poles and Jews prospered in Germany by changing their religions and adopting the German language. In Imperial Germany religion barely mattered at all, compared to France and Russia (maybe even America!).

Racism in Germany was in the 1800s to 1940 a progressive idea; it was bound up in eugenics, and in Romantic ideals of race and national self-determinination. Imposing post-Nixon American ideals of "right" and "left" on a 1872 or 1929 German spectrum is, simply, nonsense.

264 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 12:14:34pm

re: #263 Zimriel

I agree that you can't apply modern ideas of "left/right" to the Third Reich -- but today the various neo-Nazi groups in Europe and in the US are much more aligned with the far right than the far left.

265 [deleted]  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 12:47:33pm
266 The Other Les  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 4:25:12pm

re: #258 Charles

Someone could call himself a rose, but that doesn't make him a rose in the real world.

Perhaps we should redefine the political spectrum in terms of up (Reason and Liberty) and down (Superstition and Tyranny).

267 Hanoch  Sat, Apr 4, 2009 7:07:11pm

Maybe they should apply for UN aid. I understand they have a soft-spot for hard-core anti-semites.

268 gegenkritik  Sun, Apr 5, 2009 12:35:09pm

re: #160 lurking faith

Some of their support, I assume, is from people concerned about the continuing rise of Islamism and not knowing where else to turn.


The NPD's relationship towards Islam is ambivalent: on the one hand, some local NPD-activists are denouncing Muslims (because Xenophobia is one of the NPD's main-pillars), on the other hand, many influential people within the NPD are looking for an alliance with radicals Muslims, supporting the Mollah-regime and the Palestinians (It's not unusal, that you see NPD-people with Palestinian or Iranian flags), and cheering the 9/11-attacks.
Overall, anti-semitism and anti-americanism are much more momentous for the NPD than agitation against islamic foreigners.
Some years ago, NPD-leader Udo Voigt was holding a meeting with the (now banned) islamists of Hizb-ut-Tahrir. In Hamburg, the NPD-group even split about the question, if they should demonstrate against a planned mosque and finally, the clique of those who were against the demonstration (because they didn't want to piss off their islamic allies), succeeded. Other prominent NPD-Nazis are showing their admiration for Islam, when praising the headscarve and the strict morale-codex in islamic communities.
Though, I don't really think the NPD is a problem. This might be the case in some regions in Eastern Germany, but overall, they are a stigmatized and isolated group.
Much more disturbingly is the fact that the Germany majority, while demonstrating against the NPD, share many of their values: they support the heroic struggle of the Palestinians, they denounce Israel and to most Germans, it is clear that the USA are an evil imperialistic empire.
In fact, the NPD has an avant-garde- as well as an alibi-function for German Society: their anti-semitism and anti-americanism is not camouflaged behind phrases of "world-peace" and the demonstrations against them are the proof for the "better Germans", that they have "taken a lesson from History".


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