Schaeffer: Subversives from Within

Religion • Views: 2,888

Frank Schaeffer, son of the late Calvinist preacher Francis Schaeffer, has some very interesting insights into the nature of the Christian far right — the extreme fundamentalists behind much of the home-schooling movement — and their almost total withdrawal from American culture: Glenn Beck and The 9/12 Marchers: Subversives From Within.

As Schaeffer explains, he was raised as a scion of this movement, and became very disenchanted with what he saw. As a former insider, his analysis of the fanatical far right is fascinating and disturbing.

As a former Religious Right leader, who was raised (and home-schooled by my Evangelical-leader parents, Francis and Edith Schaeffer) in the movement, let me explain just why the ordinary rules of decency don’t apply to the right these days.

Let me also answer this question: Who are these people?

Protecting Your Children From Satan
A big part of the answer to understanding the heightened climate of outright hate and fear of the “other” is the home school and Christian school movement. It is a modern incarnation of the anti-federal government ideology of earlier firebrands such as John Calhoun who was the 7th Vice President and a Southern politician in the 19th century. Calhoun embraced slavery, states’ rights, limited government, and said that Americans should secede from the union if it went against their wishes. (See: “Calhoun Conservatism Raises Its Ugly Head” by Mike Lux in the Huffington Post Sept 11/09.)

In the early 1970s the evangelicals like my late father and James Dobson decided that the our society had fallen so far “away from God” and so far from “America’s Christian history” that it was time to metaphorically decamp to not just another country but to another planet:. In other words virtually unnoticed by the media and mainstream political operatives, a big chunk of American society seceded from the union in all but name.

What they did is turn the white race-based “Christian school” movement of the 1950s into a countercultural phenomena. As tens of thousands of new Christian schools opened, it was no longer just about “protecting” white kids from minorities and African-Americans. It was about protecting your children from Satan — in other words the United States government’s long reach through the public school system.

To protect your children from Satan — in other words mainstream, open patriotic and pluralistic America — you either kept them at home where mom and dad could teach the children right from wrong or send them to a cloistered private evangelical/fundamentalist school. At home or in school you used curriculum prepared by the likes of James—beat-your-child-and-dare-to-discipline-Dobson, RJ-slavery-was-a-good-thing-Rushdoony, or many and other right-wing anti-American activists. That curriculum presented “secular America” as downright evil. Hating the USA became next to godliness.

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333 comments
1 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:14:45am

Interesting take; the subculture growing into a counter-culture, growing into a subversive movement. We've seen it happen once already in this country; why couldn't it happen again?

2 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:15:36am

home schooling past elementary school is child abuse

3 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:15:42am

These folks look no different to me than the men with beards and bumps on their foreheads.
Dangerous, closed minded fanatics

4 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:16:58am

re: #2 SpaceJesus

home schooling past elementary school is child abuse

did youe head get hit by Heidi's toolbag?

5 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:17:38am
At home or in school you used curriculum prepared by the likes of James—beat-your-child-and-dare-to-discipline-Dobson, RJ-slavery-was-a-good-thing-Rushdoony, or many and other right-wing anti-American activists.

I didn't realize Rushdooney had a curriculum. Scary as hell! Thats the freak who wants capital punishment for things like blasphemy.

6 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:17:43am

I can see the threads appearing in ten minutes:

Charles is an Anti-Chrisitan zealot.

7 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:17:53am

You can see some of these people at the tea party in this video -- notice the kid with the sign that says "Pelosi is a Jezebel," and the fanatic screaming "Repent!"

8 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:18:39am

Didn't he convert to Russian Orthodoxy? He's had an interesting life, that's for sure.

9 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:18:55am

Friggin' cultists, the lot of 'em. Boy, are they in for a surprise, comes the Judgment!

10 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:19:07am

re: #6 MJ

I can see the threads appearing in ten minutes:

Charles is an Anti-Christian zealot.

Typo. Sorry.

11 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:19:09am

re: #5 Sharmuta

I didn't realize Rushdooney had a curriculum. Scary as hell! Thats the freak who wants capital punishment for things like blasphemy.

funny, if the Saudis set up these types of schools and whatever in the USA, these same folks would be FREAKING OUT about it.
but when they do it, it's OK

12 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:21:49am

re: #11 Shug

funny, if the Saudis set up these types of schools and whatever in the USA, these same folks would be FREAKING OUT about it.
but when they do it, it's OK

Do you dare compare them to the Taliban either- folks will freak out on you no matter how valid the comparison is.

13 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:22:23am

Interesting take on the Evangelical Red Guards - they have never lived in America, having been in the cocoon of their ideologies from birth til the present, living like foreigners, in effect, in the land of their birth.

Amish & Mennonite do likewise, but they're not hostile, don't mean to make over the world, and really just want to be left alone, and are willing to extend that courtesy to others. That's the difference between a sect and a cult.

These guys, though, they're a friggin' apocalyptic political cult. Not good, people, not good at all.

14 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:23:03am

Note that calling a woman a "Jezebel" is the most deadly insult a fundamentalist can issue.

Jezebel was a biblical queen who turned Israel away from God and toward paganism, and the Old Testament God punished her by having her killed by her servants and her corpse eaten by dogs.

That's what they're wishing on Nancy Pelosi.

15 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:24:16am

they should have called her a sharmuta

(since they wouldn't get the inside joke that it's actually a compliment)

16 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:24:22am

re: #14 Charles


Jezebel was a biblical queen who turned Israel away from God and toward paganism, and the Old Testament God punished her by having her killed by her servants and her corpse eaten by dogs.


this is the story book these people think america was founded on?

17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:24:54am

I would have homeschooled my children...

If I weren't such an idiot.

18 Cathypop  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:25:35am

re: #16 SpaceJesus

this is the story book these people think america was founded on?


Sweet little bed time stories for the children. Oh My!

19 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:26:07am

re: #16 SpaceJesus

What is this personal assholeism you have to subscribe to?

20 Gella  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:27:35am

re: #14 Charles

Note that calling a woman a "Jezebel" is the most deadly insult a fundamentalist can issue.

Jezebel was a biblical queen who turned Israel away from God and toward paganism, and the Old Testament God punished her by having her killed by her servants and her corpse eaten by dogs.

That's what they're wishing on Nancy Pelosi.

jezabel.com is complete liberal junkie femenatzie cite

21 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:27:43am

re: #18 Cathypop

Sweet little bed time stories for the children. Oh My!

And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.

22 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:28:20am

re: #19 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What is this personal assholeism you have to subscribe to?

whatever it is, it's not as bad as the assholeism that gets dealt out in the bible. god brutally murdering women as punishment? feeding their bodies to dogs? what the fuck?

23 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:29:46am

re: #13 Guanxi88

Interesting take on the Evangelical Red Guards - they have never lived in America, having been in the cocoon of their ideologies from birth til the present, living like foreigners, in effect, in the land of their birth.

Amish & Mennonite do likewise, but they're not hostile, don't mean to make over the world, and really just want to be left alone, and are willing to extend that courtesy to others. That's the difference between a sect and a cult.

These guys, though, they're a friggin' apocalyptic political cult. Not good, people, not good at all.

Most Christians integrate well into the community; hell, they ARE most of the community!

But significant numbersof them apparently segregate themselves in isolated, insulated fundamentalist countercultures, from which they emerge with a militant and alien agenda that intentionally endangers all our freedoms.

Why does this so much remind me of Muslims in the US, most of which seamlessly integrate and benefit our shared nation, while a fanatical fundamentalist subculture are a danger to us all?

24 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:31:06am

re: #23 Salamantis

Sal, you nailed it right on the head. That's the friggin problem - integrate yourselves, people!

25 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:31:15am

re: #20 Gella

jezabel.com is complete liberal junkie femenatzie cite

And your point (after discounting the five misspellings) is?

26 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:33:35am

I don't know how you feel about her but I heard Gene loves jezebel

27 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:35:03am

The article seems a little over the top to me, but the basic premise about the religious right being a negative influence, I whole-heartedly agree with. The thing that disgusts me about the Republican party (of which I am a member) is the power that the religious right continues to wield. I wish that the Republican party could jettison the religious right and send them back to the fringes where they belong.

28 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:35:41am

re: #25 Cato the Elder

Hey! I like Gella's accent. I think it's cute!

29 mrbaracuda  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:37:41am

O say can you see, the crazy within thee.
Excuse a German asking, but what exactly is a "Deather"? Anti-abortion people?

30 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:37:45am

re: #27 Enkidu90046

The article seems a little over the top to me, but the basic premise about the religious right being a negative influence, I whole-heartedly agree with. The thing that disgusts me about the Republican party (of which I am a member) is the power that the religious right continues to wield. I wish that the Republican party could jettison the religious right and send them back to the fringes where they belong.

Of course it's over the top - it's impossible to discuss something so mind-blowingly odd as this without coming across as a bit feverish. They're a negative influence, but they're powerful, well-organized, and they vote like clockwork. How can the party just jettison these folk to the fringes when these folk are a reliable constituency with a proven hostility to much of what the democratic part represents? The Rep party is making a deal with the devil, as it were; it's like backing the jihad against the Soviet Union, in some ways.

31 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:37:52am

Hey Lizards!

So where to people like me fit:

Those who want their children to learn that communism isn't a valid option.

Those who want their children to learn that it is immoral to conceive a child that one is not prepared to raise in the best possible environment --two parent-economically stable household.

Those who think that education is about learning to read, write and do math and that a big part of education is about learning self-discipline.

Homeschooling is not only for the religious right. Nor are parochial schools.

I think there is most definitely a lunatic fringe that lives in a different universe --I explored some of those educational options--they do exist, but a great many of us (the majority in my area) want more control of our children's education than the public school system allows. We want our children to learn values --which are IMHO separate from religious dogma.

32 mrbaracuda  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:38:23am

Oh and of course good evening fellow lizards, from the - by the looks of it - more secular heaven called Europe. LoL.

33 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:38:23am

re: #29 mrbaracuda

O say can you see, the crazy within thee.
Excuse a German asking, but what exactly is a "Deather"? Anti-abortion people?

Deathers are people who are demanding to see Truman's actual death certificate

34 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:38:49am

re: #31 ggt

Hey Lizards!

So where to people like me fit:

Those who want their children to learn that communism isn't a valid option.

Those who want their children to learn that it is immoral to conceive a child that one is not prepared to raise in the best possible environment --two parent-economically stable household.

Those who think that education is about learning to read, write and do math and that a big part of education is about learning self-discipline.

Homeschooling is not only for the religious right. Nor are parochial schools.

I think there is most definitely a lunatic fringe that lives in a different universe --I explored some of those educational options--they do exist, but a great many of us (the majority in my area) want more control of our children's education than the public school system allows. We want our children to learn values --which are IMHO separate from religious dogma.

And that's why these folk are dangerous, because they are ready, willing, and able to teach just these things, but it comes with a lot of baggage.

35 mrbaracuda  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:38:54am

re: #33 Shug

What? Harry Truman's?

36 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:39:30am

bbiab

37 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:39:56am

re: #29 mrbaracuda

O say can you see, the crazy within thee.
Excuse a German asking, but what exactly is a "Deather"? Anti-abortion people?

People who think Obamacare will set up "death panels" to decide who gets the plug pulled. A certain ex-governor of a state close to Russia used her Down Syndrome baby as an example of someone who would be put up before such a panel and possibly euthanized.

38 Gella  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:41:04am

re: #28 wrenchwench

Hey! I like Gella's accent. I think it's cute!

ohh thanks, it has been a while since somebody counted my misspells :) its cute too
Jezebel is another pop cite with some feminist tendencies, that actually go wrong way, their articles and comments set women back

39 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:41:27am

re: #35 mrbaracuda

What? Harry Truman's?

Capote

40 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:42:00am

re: #30 Guanxi88

I don't think it will be fast or easy (or for that matter likely) for the religious right to be exorcised from the Republican party, but it is necessary if the party is to survive as a co-equal to the Democratic party. I wish there were a viable centrist party with real power that was pro-science, socially liberal and conservative with respect to economics and foreign relations.

41 Fenris  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:42:35am

I went through two Christian schools from 1999 to 2002, and they didn't seem THAT bad. At least I was able to function in a public high school.

42 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:42:49am

re: #31 ggt

Hey Lizards!

So where to people like me fit:

Those who want their children to learn that communism isn't a valid option.

Those who want their children to learn that it is immoral to conceive a child that one is not prepared to raise in the best possible environment --two parent-economically stable household.

Those who think that education is about learning to read, write and do math and that a big part of education is about learning self-discipline.

Homeschooling is not only for the religious right. Nor are parochial schools.

I think there is most definitely a lunatic fringe that lives in a different universe --I explored some of those educational options--they do exist, but a great many of us (the majority in my area) want more control of our children's education than the public school system allows. We want our children to learn values --which are IMHO separate from religious dogma.

why not enroll your children in religious school then? why deny them an education from professional educators?

43 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:43:11am
What are these home school and Christian school children taught? Here's a quote from one of the far right's leading home school curricula creators:

"The stranger in ancient Israel did not serve as a judge, although he received all the benefits of living in the land. The political question is this: By what biblical standard is the pagan to be granted the right to bring political sanctions against God's people? We recognize that unbelievers are not to vote in Church elections. Why should they be allowed to vote in civil elections in a covenanted Christian nation? Which judicial standards will they impose? By what other standard than the Bible?" (Gary North of Institute For Christian Economics)

Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist)

44 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:43:23am

re: #40 Enkidu90046

I don't think it will be fast or easy (or for that matter likely) for the religious right to be exorcised from the Republican party, but it is necessary if the party is to survive as a co-equal to the Democratic party. I wish there were a viable centrist party with real power that was pro-science, socially liberal and conservative with respect to economics and foreign relations.

Such a party would likely fall to pieces before I had a chance to cast a ballot for one of their candidates. Too many interests compete for the same voters, and do it better.

45 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:45:11am

re: #43 Sharmuta

Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist)


poor kids. kids raised this way don't stand a chance in society.

46 mrbaracuda  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:45:15am

re: #23 Salamantis

Why does this so much remind me of Muslims in the US, most of which seamlessly integrate and benefit our shared nation, while a fanatical fundamentalist subculture are a danger to us all?

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but at least there aren't so many crazy Muslims in politics, especially at the top.

re: #37 Cato the Elder

Right, thanks. I didn't know they were their own movement by now, just a bunch of morons inside an already existing one like the GOP.

47 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:45:43am

re: #44 Guanxi88

Can you let me dream for a little while before you dash my hopes against the ragged rocks of reality?

48 Cato the Elder  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:45:57am

Given a choice between rule by Christian theocrats and Muslim ones, I think I'd choose...armed resistance.

49 Kevlaur  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:46:19am

Schaeffer sounds bitter; he is doing what most of you here abhor (or claim to abhor anyhow) - labeling a whole swath of people. I can't think of catchy '-er' name right now for what he is suffering from... sorry, I'm not very witty.
I know many home schoolers and home schooled. I find nothing wrong with wanting to keep your children out of certain schools. However, we are told to be 'in the world and not of the world.' And, I have often wondered about their ability to fit in.

50 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:46:37am

re: #43 Sharmuta

Gary North (Christian Reconstructionist)

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

Any sane polity does not, and cannot, permit the spread or publication of ideals counter to the survival of the state or system of government, and cannot long endure the growth of any movement with such goals. Self-defense of the polity (the social and political order) requires this kind of nonsense be opposed and crushed wherever it rears its head.

51 mrbaracuda  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:46:57am

re: #48 Cato the Elder

But then you will live outside the system, in the system! Subversive! Subversive!
*gets his torch and manure fork*

:-D

52 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:48:28am

re: #49 Kevlaur

Schaeffer sounds bitter; he is doing what most of you here abhor (or claim to abhor anyhow) - labeling a whole swath of people. I can't think of catchy '-er' name right now for what he is suffering from... sorry, I'm not very witty.
I know many home schoolers and home schooled. I find nothing wrong with wanting to keep your children out of certain schools. However, we are told to be 'in the world and not of the world.' And, I have often wondered about their ability to fit in.

He's not talking about Christians or Christian homeschoolers as a group or as a whole; he's talking about the people he's talking about, and he identifies them very clearly.

53 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:48:54am

"The Christian goal for the world is the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics, in which every area of life is redeemed and placed under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the rule of God's law."
- Reconstructionist leader David Barton

In other words, they want to jettison the US Constitution, which they view as irretrieveably tainted with pagan Greek-and-Roman-philosophy-grounded Enlightenment values, and replace it with a Christian version of sharia law based upon their fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible.

And not only do they wish this theocratic system to dominate the US, but the entire world.

It's nothing other than Christian Al Qaedanism.

54 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:49:06am

re: #47 Enkidu90046

Can you let me dream for a little while before you dash my hopes against the ragged rocks of reality?

Sorry. Force of habit.

55 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:49:42am

re: #53 Salamantis

"The Christian goal for the world is the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics, in which every area of life is redeemed and placed under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the rule of God's law."
- Reconstructionist leader David Barton


It's nothing other than Christian Al Qaedanism.

Give that man a cigar!

56 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:49:47am
Over the last 30 years Evangelical fundamentalists have managed to do what Chairman Mao failed to do with his Red Guards: indoctrinate a whole generation of evangelical people to see their own society as the enemy and act like subversives from within the culture. These people are more anti-American than Al-Qaeda. The "Christian Reconstruction" movement is working for theocracy. Reconstructionism (of which Gary North is one leader) says that the law given for the political and legal ordering of ancient Israel is intended for all people at all times.

Reconstructionist leader David Barton gives a definition:
"The Christian goal for the world is the universal development of Biblical theocratic republics, in which every area of life is redeemed and placed under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the rule of God's law."

And now it's not good enough they teach their own kids this at home- they want to spread it into the public schools and teach it to your kids too.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

57 transient  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:50:12am

For those (both Christians and Jews) who wonder why more Jews haven't voted Republican lately, this is a fine example of exactly what centrist and liberal leaning Jews are afraid of. Some of the freaks hanging out with the recent tea parties provide added examples.

58 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:51:07am

re: #49 Kevlaur

I agree with you, which is why I said that I thought the article was a bit over the top. I grew up around the people that the author describes in his article, and while there was a lot of disturbing things and legitimate reasons for criticism, I just didn't see what the author seems to see. Please note that I grew up in a state that was the only one where Pat Robertson won the Republican primaries.

59 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:51:08am

re: #49 Kevlaur

Schaeffer sounds bitter; he is doing what most of you here abhor (or claim to abhor anyhow) - labeling a whole swath of people. I can't think of catchy '-er' name right now for what he is suffering from... sorry, I'm not very witty.
I know many home schoolers and home schooled. I find nothing wrong with wanting to keep your children out of certain schools. However, we are told to be 'in the world and not of the world.' And, I have often wondered about their ability to fit in.


I have yet to meet a single homeschooled kid from my age who isn't socially stunted. It's been 6 years since I graduated highschool, and the homeschooled kids I know are still awkward after all these years. Missing out on years of socializing with your peers is something that just can't be fixed. It's as if they never got to develop their own personality or something...I can't quite describe it.

60 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:52:26am

re: #59 SpaceJesus

I have yet to meet a single homeschooled kid from my age who isn't socially stunted. It's been 6 years since I graduated highschool, and the homeschooled kids I know are still awkward after all these years. Missing out on years of socializing with your peers is something that just can't be fixed. It's as if they never got to develop their own personality or something...I can't quite describe it.

that's because you live in your mom's basement and your only social encounters involve dungeons and dragons

61 KingKenrod  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:52:34am

If the article is trying to rationally make a point, it fails. Maybe he's just preaching to the choir at the NYTimes and HuffPo. It reads more like the paranoid delusions I would hear from Glenn Beck about commies taking over the government. If this Christian separatist movement is so powerful, why can they only get 70,000 people to show up in DC for a well-planned and advertised rally?

Maybe it's unfair to judge his thesis from the short article - I'll track down his book and read that.

62 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:53:11am

re: #49 Kevlaur

Schaeffer sounds bitter; he is doing what most of you here abhor (or claim to abhor anyhow) - labeling a whole swath of people. I can't think of catchy '-er' name right now for what he is suffering from... sorry, I'm not very witty.
I know many home schoolers and home schooled. I find nothing wrong with wanting to keep your children out of certain schools. However, we are told to be 'in the world and not of the world.' And, I have often wondered about their ability to fit in.

You might want to look into who Frank Schaeffer is, and how he was raised, before you dismiss him out of hand as just someone who's "bitter." He knew many of the leading figures in the far right evangelical movement -- his own father was one.

63 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:53:14am

"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's; render unto G-d what is G-d's."

Better words I cannot say. But I have to agree with Kevlaur; it seems Schaeffer is bitter, and while he may be focusing on those attending 9/12, he seems to go pretty quickly to blaming fundamentalist evangelicals, as Sharmuta quotes in 56.

64 Erik The Red  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:54:05am

re: #59 SpaceJesus

I have yet to meet a single homeschooled kid from my age who isn't socially stunted. It's been 6 years since I graduated highschool, and the homeschooled kids I know are still awkward after all these years. Missing out on years of socializing with your peers is something that just can't be fixed. It's as if they never got to develop their own personality or something...I can't quite describe it.

If you are the measurement of a public school, God help this country. We are so fucked.

65 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:55:11am

re: #60 Shug

Strikes him with a +2 Club of Snark

66 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:55:15am

James Dobson -- one of the leading figures in the home-schooling movement. If you think this is just a tiny minority and nothing to worry about, here are some numbers for you:

James Clayton "Jim" Dobson, Jr. (born April 21, 1936) has a PhD in child psychology,[1] and is an American evangelical Christian author and founder of Focus on the Family (FOTF), a nonprofit organization he founded in 1977 which he also chaired until 2003. Dobson has never drawn a salary from the organization, but has used it to promote his related books and publications, yielding him royalties for sales through other venues.[2] As part of his role in the organization, he produces Focus on the Family, a daily radio program which according to the organization is broadcast in more than a dozen languages and on over 7,000 stations worldwide, and heard daily by more than 220 million people in 164 countries.[3][1] Focus on the Family is also carried by about sixty U.S. television stations daily.[3] He founded the Family Research Council in 1981. He is an evangelical Christian with conservative views on politics.[4] He has been referred to as "the nation's most influential evangelical leader" by Time, and Slate likens him as the successor to evangelical leaders Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson.

67 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:55:33am

re: #59 SpaceJesus

I have yet to meet a single homeschooled kid from my age who isn't socially stunted. It's been 6 years since I graduated highschool, and the homeschooled kids I know are still awkward after all these years. Missing out on years of socializing with your peers is something that just can't be fixed. It's as if they never got to develop their own personality or something...I can't quite describe it.

are they happy? socially stunted in what group? Just because someone seems socially stunted doesn't mean they aren't happy within their own group--it doesn't mean they will turn into a psycho killer.

Are they able to earn a living, pay taxes and stay out of jail? There are lots of examples of "well socialized" individiuals who can't seem to manage that.

the concept of "socializing a child" is something I view with reserve.

68 mrbaracuda  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:55:33am

re: #63 vxbush

And if the imaginary thing you seem to subscribe to says "Kill the blasphemers"? :-D

69 Pianobuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:56:30am

I've always wondered if Indiana Jones was home-schooled.

70 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:56:34am

OK, I saw this guy the other day and was ready to dismiss him because Rachel Maddow wasn't ridiculing him... then realized he had a compelling story.

71 victor_yugo  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:58:09am

Frank Schaeffer is bitter with the Fundies, for the same reasons I am.

Charles, FWIW, you putting this man's name on the front page could not have appeared at a better time for me.

72 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:58:11am

re: #69 Pianobuff

I've always wondered if Indiana Jones was home-schooled.

Almost certainly - i saw a documentary about it.

73 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:58:39am

re: #68 mrbaracuda

And if the imaginary thing you seem to subscribe to says "Kill the blasphemers"? :-D

Then that person needs to read Romans 13:1-2...

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
74 davinvalkri  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:58:44am

re: #5 Sharmuta

I didn't realize Rushdooney had a curriculum. Scary as hell! Thats the freak who wants capital punishment for things like blasphemy.

...that cuts a bit too close to Sharia for me. So, what do we call the Christian version of sharia law? Hyper-fundamentalistic theocracy or something?

75 Flyers1974  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:58:58am

re: #59 SpaceJesus

I have yet to meet a single homeschooled kid from my age who isn't socially stunted. It's been 6 years since I graduated highschool, and the homeschooled kids I know are still awkward after all these years. Missing out on years of socializing with your peers is something that just can't be fixed. It's as if they never got to develop their own personality or something...I can't quite describe it.

There great at spelling bees though.

76 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:59:16am

re: #62 Charles

You might want to look into who Frank Schaeffer is, and how he was raised, before you dismiss him out of hand as just someone who's "bitter." He knew many of the leading figures in the far right evangelical movement -- his own father was one.

I actually read his book review on Amazon of "Republican Gomorrah" after seeing it was on your Kindle and clicking the link. Obviously, the man was an insider among the leadership of the Religious Right. I am not... I just happened to live among the average Joes and Janes that were a part of the movement and while their was a lot of disturbing things and views that I was exposed to, at least in my small suburb, the followers of this movement are not nearly as extreme as presented in the article. This isn't a defense of the Religious Right, I happen to despise them, but rather keeping things in perspective.

77 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:59:21am

re: #66 Charles

James Dobson -- one of the leading figures in the home-schooling movement. If you think this is just a tiny minority and nothing to worry about, here are some numbers for you:

Charles, I haven't read Dobson since my child was young. His books, at that time --the one's I read anyway--were helpful. I didn't read anything about "beating your child" or force-feeding Jesus. Most of it was practical --establishing boundries --etc.

I am not a member of his organization or a follower of any religious idealogue.

Perhaps in the subesequent years, he has gained a momentum of which I am not aware.

78 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:00:13pm

Sorry, mrbaracuda, I didn't exactly answer your question, did I? I know you asked it facetiously, but I thought I needed to point out that Christians have been told to follow the governing authorities and not set up their own government.

79 victor_yugo  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:00:41pm

re: #73 vxbush

Then I guess Niemoeller is burning in Hell, for his refusal to submit to the Nazis.

80 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:00:48pm
The fact of the matter is we now know what the experiment in raising children outside of the American mainstream means. It means that there's a whole subculture within American culture that mistrusts facts precisely because they are facts. They glory an alternative view of not just politics but of reality.

They frequent the creationist museum and look at dioramas of dinosaurs cavorting with humans. They believe that gay people choose to be gay just stick it to the rest of us and could change if they invite Jesus into their hearts. They believe that before you run for governor of Alaska, for instance, you should get a preacher specializing in "casting out the spirit of witchcraft" to anoint you so you can win against the demonic forces of secularism -- as was the case with Sarah Palin when she first ran for governor. They believe that the NRA was telling the truth when they claimed that Obama would "take away your guns" and so have loaded up with more guns and ammunition. They think the time has come to rise up and overthrow the government. And yes, most of them also believe that black people are inferior to whites, so to have a black man in the White House is itself "proof" of American's fall from grace.

There's no arguing with such people and no winning against them using mere elections. They are not playing by American rules. Their idea of winning is not fair elections but Armageddon.

If sane Republicans are going to take back this party, we have our work cut out for us.

81 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:01:02pm

I'm not a fan of James Dobson.
He creeps me out like that Ted Haggard guy.
Most of those televangelists creep me out.


OK, all of em do

82 mich-again  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:02:03pm
Frank Schaeffer, son of the late Calvinist preacher Frances Schaeffer,

psst. you meant Francis.

83 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:02:34pm

re: #77 ggt

Charles, I haven't read Dobson since my child was young. His books, at that time --the one's I read anyway--were helpful. I didn't read anything about "beating your child" or force-feeding Jesus. Most of it was practical --establishing boundries --etc.

I am not a member of his organization or a follower of any religious idealogue.

Perhaps in the subesequent years, he has gained a momentum of which I am not aware.

He has clearly supporting spanking your child, but from what I recall he had very clear guidelines as to when and how. Some people are not comfortable with any form of spanking, and that is their right. Schaeffer here uses the phrase "whipping", but that could be interpreted two different ways. I just think that some may see that term and not equate it with spanking but actual whips.

84 borgcube  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:02:36pm

I'm an atheist. No kids. But if I did have children, they would be in private schools. If I couldn't afford that, I'd have them home-schooled. I would do whatever it takes to keep them out of public schools. Me, the hardcore atheist would rather have my kids at a Catholic school or Hebrew academy for example. Go figure.

I have to accept the fact that literally every single politician regardless of party believes in something so absurd to me in every aspect from the get-go. I have to overlook that and focus on more substantial issues or I'd never get to vote for anybody. So, I have to somehow internally calculate whether or not someone who believes the Earth is 6000 years old is any different from someone who believes otherwise but still thinks Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected and is the son of God. Not easy from my perspective. From my viewpoint, I have to choose the lesser of what I see as crazy all around.

So, I focus on the more material issues and tangible items of our mortal limitations. This is why I'm able to give a pass, or forced to give one for that matter, when I see the "Repent Now" signs at a rally if that person also supports a smaller government keeping its paws out of my wallet and 90% of the other fiscally conservative positions I support, versus a fellow atheist who wants me to become a pawn of the state.

85 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:02:42pm

re: #77 ggt

Charles, I haven't read Dobson since my child was young. His books, at that time --the one's I read anyway--were helpful. I didn't read anything about "beating your child" or force-feeding Jesus. Most of it was practical --establishing boundries --etc.

I am not a member of his organization or a follower of any religious idealogue.

Perhaps in the subesequent years, he has gained a momentum of which I am not aware.

Dobson isn't just a political theoretician, any more than he is just a counselor, any more than he is just a Christian political thinker. He's all these and more. It is foolish to avoid seeing that he is many things; some good, some not-so-good, and some troubling. This is the most common mistake we all make in dealing with people.

Some of what he has is good, and some is dangerous. The dangerous stuff doesn't necessarily destroy the value of his good work, nor does the good work diminish the danger of his other work.

86 davinvalkri  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:02:51pm

re: #59 SpaceJesus

I have yet to meet a single homeschooled kid from my age who isn't socially stunted. It's been 6 years since I graduated highschool, and the homeschooled kids I know are still awkward after all these years. Missing out on years of socializing with your peers is something that just can't be fixed. It's as if they never got to develop their own personality or something...I can't quite describe it.

I've been going to public schools all my life, and I'm still socially stunted (although that might be a mental issue). Internet friend of mine by the name of Adalore is homeschooled, and he's one of the most cheerful, affable people I know. Don't go painting with such a broad brush--it'll bite back later.

87 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:02:54pm

Shaeffer may be bitter but that doesn't mean he's to be rejected outright.

I grew up in a liberal family and merely went conservative once I understood what it was, too early for the parents. They dismissed me as being rebellious to them which irritated the hell out of me because it wasn't true.

I'll cut Shaeffer some slack until I get through his stuff. Most others should do the same even if he dishes dirt on somebody you respect.

88 im_gumby_damnit  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:03:00pm

I'm a product of a public school education in Florida. They started busing in kids from the poor, black parts of town when I hit first grade. Parents raised hell and there was quite an uproar over the whole thing. None of us kids paid much attention though. I learned how to get along with just about anyone, no matter what their race, religion or background, and I made a few good friends along the way that didn't look or think just like me. That's helped me a lot over the years. My kids are enjoying a similar experience in public school in Georgia and I'm happy about that.

89 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:03:04pm

re: #79 victor_yugo

Then I guess Niemoeller is burning in Hell, for his refusal to submit to the Nazis.

Do you mean Bonhoeffer? Dietrich Bohoeffer? I do not know who this Niemoeller is.

90 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:05:52pm

re: #83 vxbush

He has clearly supporting spanking your child, but from what I recall he had very clear guidelines as to when and how. Some people are not comfortable with any form of spanking, and that is their right. Schaeffer here uses the phrase "whipping", but that could be interpreted two different ways. I just think that some may see that term and not equate it with spanking but actual whips.

Oh, there are those who think "spare the rod" means a literal rod. IIRC, he used corporal punishment as a means to enforce boundries when all other methods had failed (never in anger) and, oh yes, he suggested pinching the trap muscle at the top of the shoulder near the neck. Which, BTW, I found similar to ear pulling. Got the kids attention and from there, words worked.

91 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:06:52pm

If I was raised to believe a pack of lies, you're damn straight I'd be bitter.

Doesn't mean what Schaeffer is saying is inaccurate.

92 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:08:57pm

Charles will start receiving vicious hate mail for posting this in 5...4...3...2...1...

93 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:10:31pm

re: #91 Sharmuta

If I was raised to believe a pack of lies, you're damn straight I'd be bitter.

Doesn't mean what Schaeffer is saying is inaccurate.

He certainly had a better view of the leadership than I have had. But I have not gone to any tea parties, or gone to any Republican events, so I don't know what he has seen there.

I had my child educated in a private Christian school because the public school was terrible. My sister home-schooled her children when she lived in a school district that had horrible, horrible schools. And she's practically a Buddhist.

It's so hard for us to discuss these things and be careful to note that that while there may be these big issues that are problematic and concerning, the reasons why certain people do certain things are individual.

94 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:10:51pm

re: #92 Salamantis

Charles will start receiving vicious hate mail for posting this in 5...4...3...2...1...

Alas, I fear you're right. Which is terrible in and of itself.

95 cavallino_rampante  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:10:55pm

Am I the only person on here who actually WAS homeschooled?

96 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:12:40pm

Anyone attempting to impose a theocracy, of whichever stripe, should be opposed by any and every means appropriate. I'd no more bend my knee in a "Christian Republic" imposed on the people of the United States than I'd submit to an Islamic Emirate imposed here.

People who fail to see the need to keep the government neutral but not hostile to all faiths willing to return the favor are precisely the ones who'll stand by and say "We had no idea" when the full extent of the blasphemous and presumptuous regime's crimes in the name of the Lord Almighty are revealed.

97 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:12:53pm

re: #92 Salamantis

Charles will start receiving vicious hate mail for posting this in 5...4...3...2...1...


interesting isn't it that the most vicious hate mail is always from the ultra religious

98 Pianobuff  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:13:02pm

re: #95 cavallino_rampante

Am I the only person on here who actually WAS homeschooled?

I was from 2-5 but I don't know if it counts. (And yes, it was structured schooling)

99 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:13:43pm

re: #96 Guanxi88

Anyone attempting to impose a theocracy, of whichever stripe, should be opposed by any and every means appropriate. I'd no more bend my knee in a "Christian Republic" imposed on the people of the United States than I'd submit to an Islamic Emirate imposed here.

People who fail to see the need to keep the government neutral but not hostile to all faiths willing to return the favor are precisely the ones who'll stand by and say "We had no idea" when the full extent of the blasphemous and presumptuous regime's crimes in the name of the Lord Almighty are revealed.

That's why religion just mucks things up all the time.

100 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:13:46pm

re: #95 cavallino_rampante

Am I the only person on here who actually WAS homeschooled?

Does homeschooled mean that you are tied-up and kept away from other kids? No?

101 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:13:47pm

The only fault I saw with the article is that he gives a positive mention to Max Blumenthal. Max is a real turd.

102 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:13:52pm

re: #93 vxbush

He certainly had a better view of the leadership than I have had. But I have not gone to any tea parties, or gone to any Republican events, so I don't know what he has seen there.

I had my child educated in a private Christian school because the public school was terrible. My sister home-schooled her children when she lived in a school district that had horrible, horrible schools. And she's practically a Buddhist.

It's so hard for us to discuss these things and be careful to note that that while there may be these big issues that are problematic and concerning, the reasons why certain people do certain things are individual.

I agree. What I was trying to point out, though, was the dishonest education. Those who choose to home school that aren't teaching their kids propaganda should know none of this is applying to them.

103 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:14:21pm

you know Salamantis, the more I read you the more I like you. Sorry for some shit I said to you during the late night Tiller threads.
You're a cool guy

104 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:14:45pm

re: #97 Shug

interesting isn't it that the most vicious hate mail is always from the ultra religious

People who are unsure of themselves seem to yell the loudest.

105 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:15:29pm

re: #103 Shug

you know Salamantis, the more I read you the more I like you. Sorry for some shit I said to you during the late night Tiller threads.
You're a cool guy

I kinda grow on people.

But then again, so do warts...;~)

106 Enkidu90046  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:15:44pm

Now, while I have stated that I think the article was a bit over the top... I have so many horror stories from my growing up in Federal Way, Washington regarding run-ins with the Religious Right (including death threats against my family) that most people cannot believe that this sort of stuff went on in a liberal state like Washington in the 1980s, in a suburb less than 20 miles from Seattle.

107 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:15:47pm

Strange, when I was read a lot of the self-help books on raising "a strong-willed child" one of my main concerns was raising a child who would hopefully resist drugs and alcohol. There is a lot of addiction in my family and some of those individuals were really having problems when my son was young. It was a HUGE concern of mine.

What I read in the psychology (preventing addiction) type books was almost exactly the same as what I read in the "religious" bent books (raising a responsible person) (Dobson and some Catholic stuff)--positive reinforcement --firm boundaries -- freedom within those boundaries. Allow the child to learn a sense of accomplishment --don't do everything for him. Let him make mistakes and learn from those mistakes . . .

I didn't read any of those ideas in the educational-bent books.

108 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:17:26pm

re: #107 ggt

Strange, when I was read a lot of the self-help books on raising "a strong-willed child" one of my main concerns was raising a child who would hopefully resist drugs and alcohol. There is a lot of addiction in my family and some of those individuals were really having problems when my son was young. It was a HUGE concern of mine.

What I read in the psychology (preventing addiction) type books was almost exactly the same as what I read in the "religious" bent books (raising a responsible person) (Dobson and some Catholic stuff)--positive reinforcement --firm boundaries -- freedom within those boundaries. Allow the child to learn a sense of accomplishment --don't do everything for him. Let him make mistakes and learn from those mistakes . . .

I didn't read any of those ideas in the educational-bent books.

A psychology book isn't an educational-bent book?

109 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:17:34pm

re: #83 vxbush

He has clearly supporting spanking your child, but from what I recall he had very clear guidelines as to when and how. Some people are not comfortable with any form of spanking, and that is their right. Schaeffer here uses the phrase "whipping", but that could be interpreted two different ways. I just think that some may see that term and not equate it with spanking but actual whips.

Dobson advised spanking children with a "switch."

110 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:17:48pm

re: #105 Salamantis

Also would've accepted fungus

/

111 dekalb  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:17:55pm

#8, Cato - Schaeffer entered the Greek Orthodox Church: [Link: www.frankschaeffer.com...]

112 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:18:14pm

re: #110 Fenway_Nation

Also would've accepted fungus

/

Among us?

/

113 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:18:17pm

re: #108 Locker

A psychology book isn't an educational-bent book?

hmmm, different areas of the bookstore is what I meant.

114 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:18:26pm

Sounds like Dobson has a spanking fetish.

115 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:18:27pm

re: #102 Sharmuta

I agree. What I was trying to point out, though, was the dishonest education. Those who choose to home school that aren't teaching their kids propaganda should know none of this is applying to them.

Ah, I see. Yes. But I can see how we can grow tired of saying, "Now this doesn't apply to everyone..."

116 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:18:49pm

Frank Schaeffer provides good insight into the mechanizations of the porst-Buckley era Republican party that has been overrun by the Religious Right. He has first hand insight and has walked the walk on both sides of the fence.

As we see the growing resurgence of the Religious Right's influence on the Republican Party it should provide one of many warnings for the need to consider a 3rd party outside of the big "L" Libertarian Party and one that is more in tune with the pre-televangelicalization of the Republican Party reflecting the stable values of a latter Goldwater or Buckley.

117 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:19:07pm

re: #112 Salamantis

Among us?

/


I lichen your pun

118 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:19:29pm

re: #117 Shug

I lichen your pun

ere we go.

119 Erik The Red  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:19:53pm

re: #110 Fenway_Nation

Hey fenway did you work out how to email from LGF's yet?

120 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:19:56pm

Frank Shaeffer still goes to church every Sunday. He's not indicting religion...

121 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:20:00pm

re: #107 ggt

Strange, when I was read a lot of the self-help books on raising "a strong-willed child" one of my main concerns was raising a child who would hopefully resist drugs and alcohol. There is a lot of addiction in my family and some of those individuals were really having problems when my son was young. It was a HUGE concern of mine.

What I read in the psychology (preventing addiction) type books was almost exactly the same as what I read in the "religious" bent books (raising a responsible person) (Dobson and some Catholic stuff)--positive reinforcement --firm boundaries -- freedom within those boundaries. Allow the child to learn a sense of accomplishment --don't do everything for him. Let him make mistakes and learn from those mistakes . . .

I didn't read any of those ideas in the educational-bent books.

Nor would you. Dobson provides excellent guidance, at least in this Hebrew's opinion, on raising children, particularly the difficult ones (and my middle daughter is definitely a strong-willed child). Again, not everything the have is wrong or dangerous - a lot of it is very sound, very reasonable, and very effective. Other ideas of theirs, in other areas, though, are cause for concern.

With that said, most "secular" theories of human development and child-raising are really poorly-disguised versions of a sort of post-modern Freudian Marxism, lacking the rigor of any of its elements, and exposed to all the failings of each of its constituents.

122 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:20:19pm

re: #114 Shug

Sounds like Dobson has a spanking fetish.

Who doesn't?

124 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:21:07pm

re: #115 vxbush

Ah, I see. Yes. But I can see how we can grow tired of saying, "Now this doesn't apply to everyone..."

Yes. And I grow tired of some people trying to extend the criticisms as applying to them when it doesn't. Like the whole DHS memo. I don't think all home schoolers are doing it for religious reasons, but those who are likely following the courses discussed by this article, and that's troubling.

125 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:22:16pm

re: #109 Charles

Dobson advised spanking children with a "switch."

I did not remember that.

126 Cavallino_Rampante  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:23:57pm

re: #100 debutaunt

You know it. Even now, as I write this comment, I am almost immobilized with social awkwardness.

127 soxfan4life  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:23:58pm

re: #110 Fenway_Nation

I see after mentioning Phil Kessel to you he got traded for 2 first round picks and a second round pick. Nice job by Chiarelli.

128 transient  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:24:27pm

Sometimes when you lie down with fleas you wake up...dead.

During the Iranian Revolution the Communists cooperated with the Islamists because they were united in wanting to get rid of the Shah, and because they believed they would have some say in the government that followed because of that alliance. Once the Islamists were in power, they killed the communists.

You have to be careful about who you ally with, even when you think you share a goal. Religious Christians may find they are not "Christian enough" under a Christian theocracy.

See under: Stages of Revolution: Reign of Terror.

129 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:24:40pm

re: #120 BigPapa

Frank Shaeffer still goes to church every Sunday. He's not indicting religion...

That his critics do not acknowledge that is a reflection of what he speaks of.

130 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:24:50pm

Hitting a child with a switch is not "spanking"

It's criminal child abuse and if that child came into my emergency department for some other complaint and I saw switch marks on that child, let's just say the parents would be getting a little visit from child protective services

131 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:25:09pm

and the police

132 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:25:20pm

From the article:

who are most faithful followers the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh or viewers of Fox News your answer is: it's the home school/Christian school generation of men and women now hitting their thirties and even forties who might as well have been raised on a different planet.

And this explains the reluctance of even reasonable people like Medved to take on the GOP positions on social issues. Especially, the issue of abortion. After the 2008, Rush and other talk show hosts pointed to Prop 8 in California as evidence that the American people agreed with the Religious Right and completely ignored the abortion banning ballot initiatives that went down in flame in CO and SD. I even wrote to Rush, Ingraham about it and got no replies.

133 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:25:53pm

re: #23 Salamantis

Most Christians integrate well into the community; hell, they ARE most of the community!

But significant numbersof them apparently segregate themselves in isolated, insulated fundamentalist countercultures, from which they emerge with a militant and alien agenda that intentionally endangers all our freedoms.

Why does this so much remind me of Muslims in the US, most of which seamlessly integrate and benefit our shared nation, while a fanatical fundamentalist subculture are a danger to us all?

In Schaeffer's own words:

"These people are more anti-American than Al-Qaeda... . Today the right wing America haters actually are doing to America what no "illegal" immigrants ever do: work to overthrow our democracy and replace it with a theocracy."

134 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:25:56pm

Regarding the public school system -- John Dewey was a pragmatist. I'm learning more and more about pragmatism. .

any Lizard insights? does this shed a light on why one may choose an alternative to public education for other than religious reasons?

135 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:26:16pm

re: #132 Chekote

From the article:

After the 2008, Rush and other talk show hosts pointed to Prop 8 in California as evidence that the American people agreed with the Religious Right and completely ignored the abortion banning ballot initiatives that went down in flame in CO and SD. I even wrote to Rush, Ingraham about it and got no replies.

Musta got lost in the mail.

136 soxfan4life  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:26:39pm

re: #132 Chekote

Much like the Dems they like to ignore anything critical and hope it just goes away.

137 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:27:22pm

re: #133 ryannon

OK, he's a little bitter. That was going over the top.

138 Linden Arden  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:27:28pm

The Wahhabi Christians have the potential to effectively turn this country into a one-party government.

And whichever party wins the result will be a disaster.

139 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:27:37pm

re: #64 Erik The Red

If you are the measurement of a public school, God help this country. We are so fucked.

I think I found spacejesus's solution to the religious right:

140 Locker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:27:41pm

re: #121 Guanxi88

Nor would you. Dobson provides excellent guidance, at least in this Hebrew's opinion, on raising children, particularly the difficult ones (and my middle daughter is definitely a strong-willed child). Again, not everything the have is wrong or dangerous - a lot of it is very sound, very reasonable, and very effective. Other ideas of theirs, in other areas, though, are cause for concern.

With that said, most "secular" theories of human development and child-raising are really poorly-disguised versions of a sort of post-modern Freudian Marxism, lacking the rigor of any of its elements, and exposed to all the failings of each of its constituents.

You would have to write an entire book to support that one statement. Probably several books.

141 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:28:16pm

re: #134 ggt

Regarding the public school system -- John Dewey was a pragmatist. I'm learning more and more about pragmatism. .

any Lizard insights? does this shed a light on why one may choose an alternative to public education for other than religious reasons?

Dewey's educational model was premised on an industrial society and the needs of the economy at the time, within the technological horizons then in place. His model, producing what amounts to functional units for the industrial world, barely worked then, and isn't working now.

142 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:28:18pm

re: #124 Sharmuta

Yes. And I grow tired of some people trying to extend the criticisms as applying to them when it doesn't. Like the whole DHS memo. I don't think all home schoolers are doing it for religious reasons, but those who are likely following the courses discussed by this article, and that's troubling.

There are a lot of curricula available to homeschooling parents that are not religious in nature. I explored Classical homeschooling, but didn't do it. (sometimes wish I had). There are tons of resources within the community for homeschool kids. The local community colleges offer math and science, for example. It's a matter of how much the parent wishes to put into it.

143 MJ  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:28:54pm

re: #134 ggt

Regarding the public school system -- John Dewey was a pragmatist. I'm learning more and more about pragmatism. .

any Lizard insights? does this shed a light on why one may choose an alternative to public education for other than religious reasons?

Read Charles Peirce:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

144 sphincter  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:29:31pm

Hmm? Every family is different. We home-schooled the kids. Daughter's starting her first year of medical school @ Johns Hopkins. The boy is able to play high-school soccer and doing better academically than his peers.

Assuming they are stunted socially is off the mark. Lord knows how many miles the wife and I put on the cars running them from activity to activity. That's what parents do. We're teachers and taxi drivers for nearly 2 decades. That's cool though. The kids aren't going to be crashed on our couches when they are in their mid-twenties. They'll be self sufficient. That is the parents primary job; prepare your children to go out into the world so that they can survive on their own terms and under their own speed.

When it's all said and done, this is a decision that parents have to make.

145 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:30:20pm

The bananas (those dastardly man-made variety, doncha know) are calling to be made into muffins.

Interesting article, Charles, and disturbing. I may have to read a few of his books.

146 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:30:51pm

re: #140 Locker

You would have to write an entire book to support that one statement. Probably several books.

Okay, so I exaggerate a bit to make the overall point that most modern theories of psychology are scientific the same way the wooden horse was Trojan.

That said, you see the strains of the po-mo mindset (itself the cultural application of Marxian substrate analysis, fecundated with a bit of literary theory, and consummated upon a bed of discredited Freudianism) at work throughout modern psychological works and primers.

147 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:32:13pm

re: #37 Cato the Elder

People who think Obamacare will set up "death panels" to decide who gets the plug pulled. A certain ex-governor of a state close to Russia used her Down Syndrome baby as an example of someone who would be put up before such a panel and possibly euthanized.

Admirable restraint there, old fellow.

148 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:32:30pm

I mentioned Gary North upthread. He was the son-in-law of Rushdooney, who subscribes to this:

In the Institutes, Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions. Under such a system, the list of civil crimes which carried a death sentence would include homosexuality, adultery, incest, lying about one's virginity, bestiality, witchcraft, idolatry or apostasy, public blasphemy, false prophesying, kidnapping, rape, and bearing false witness in a capital case.

This is what these folks are teaching kids the Constitution should be replaced with. Again, some folks get touchy when the term "Christian Taliban" gets used, but when I look at this list of capital crimes, I can't help but find the analogy valid.

149 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:32:46pm

The problematic thing about raising kids is to internalize your disciplining of them into their disciplining of themselves. Self-discipline is an essential social and individual skill.

This is because kids are like little machines that are genetically programmed to transcend their own programming and evolve into people by absorbing the lessons in their environments.

Thus behavioral conditioning (positive and negative reinforcement, reward and punishment) is necessary at first, but kids must be progresssively taught to apply such pinciples to themselves - such as atoning when they mess up, and rewarding themselves only when it is deserved.

The principles found in "Towards Greater Freedom and Happiness" by Alfred A Barrios - a handbook on self-programmed control - would seem to be useful in that regard.

Also kids are primarily emotional at first; intellection comes later. But this emotion is itself a form of communication of fears and desires, and it is important to be able to read it correctly.

For that purpose, I would recommend the book "Focusing", by Eugene T. Gendlin. It teaches one how to correctly interpret the meaning of one's own emotions, and as such, could only facilitate the correct interpretation of the emotions of others.

150 fizzlogic  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:32:49pm

I posted the link to this interview of Frank Schaeffer before. But I can't resist to not post it again to this thread. :)

151 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:34:02pm

re: #119 Erik The Red

Sort of- I fired one off the Blue Canuck on the LNDT.

152 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:34:29pm

re: #144 sphincter

Why home school? Just curious.

153 Irenicum  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:34:38pm

re: #146 Guanxi88

I updinged that just for the sentence structure. Impressive!

154 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:35:25pm

I'm not sure why it always seems to be necessary to say explicitly that "not all homeschoolers" are the Dobson-Falwell-Robertson types. Isn't that obvious?

But a very large number of homeschoolers DO fit into this category.

155 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:35:38pm

Ineresting article but I think he overstates the effect of homeschooling on the Tea Parties. There certainly an element there but there's a whole lot of stuff going into this. It's one of many factors.

156 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:35:50pm

re: #153 Irenicum

I updinged that just for the sentence structure. Impressive!

Why, thank you. In person, I am told I'm a bit hard to follow, but folk can read me without too much trouble. Hyper-verbal.

157 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:36:25pm

Here's the Rachel Maddow interview with Schaeffer. I'm not a fan of Maddow, so don't even start. But what Schaeffer has to say is interesting.

158 Irenicum  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:37:07pm

re: #156 Guanxi88

Same here.

159 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:37:28pm

re: #127 soxfan4life


Yea...that actually made the ESPN crawl during the Fresno State/Boise State game last night.

Sorry to see him go. Even sorrier to see him go to another team in the same division, altho' we robbed the leafs blind when we got Tukka Rask.

160 Shug  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:38:18pm

re: #154 Charles

I'm not sure why it always seems to be necessary to say explicitly that "not all homeschoolers" are the Dobson-Falwell-Robertson types. Isn't that obvious?

But a very large number of homeschoolers DO fit into this category.

Maybe because comment #2 got a lot of updings ( even though it has a negative comment rating). I guess some people felt the need to defend home schooling

OK, folks.
Off to watch MSU beat Notre Dame

161 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:38:18pm

Also, the insurance companies stand to make a killing if the Baucus plan passes. Covering pre-existing conditions will cost less than all new revenue coming in from mandating coverage. I don't see a lot of corporate opposition this time around. Obama has made deals with pharma and other major players.

162 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:38:29pm

Drudge is working the NWO angle today: OBAMA PUSH FOR 'WORLD' REGULATIONS

Panic!

163 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:38:32pm

re: #158 Irenicum

Same here.

I used to try to keep a sort of log of thoughts and such, but gave up the project, as I found the style becoming ever more intricate and obscure with each day.

164 sphincter  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:40:59pm

re: #152 Chekote

The wife was an accountant by trade but wanted to homeschool. In her family education was very important. Also, we take our faith seriously. It was fulfilling for her, it has worked really well with the kids, and I'm pleased with the outcome. She has done a great job of it and I'm very proud of her.

Being homeschooled doesn't mean the kids can't participate in activities like band or soccer or even drama club. Our kids did and one still does.

I know every family is different, but this was the right choice for us.

165 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:41:11pm

re: #45 SpaceJesus

poor kids. kids raised this way don't stand a chance in society.

Not necessarily. The article infers that there are tens of thousands of adults who were raised this way who are apparently functioning quite well in society.

Kids are amazingly resilient and adaptable. Adults often learn how to dissemble with an equal facility ...

166 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:42:05pm

re: #165 ryannon

Not necessarily. The article infers that there are tens of thousands of adults who were raised this way who are apparently functioning quite well in society.

Kids are amazingly resilient and adaptable. Adults often learn how to dissemble with an equal facility ...

What about the kids in this video?

167 erraticsphinx  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:42:10pm

Wow, that interview of him with Maddow was really good.
He's right, it would be better to have no Republican Party rather than have one controlled by these freaks.

168 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:42:41pm

For the record, our reason for homeschooling our children was academic. I had considered just doing more at home, (at one point the teacher had our daughter in the wrong reading, and I was working with her at home), and realized that it was mean to make them do six hours of school, then more at home.

The oldest is in high school now, (she and her father wanted her to go), and snickered when the teacher told the English class that their reading was "the hardest you have done in your life." It isn't. She read 17 Shakespeare plays last year.

169 victor_yugo  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:42:58pm

re: #89 vxbush

Do you mean Bonhoeffer? Dietrich Bohoeffer? I do not know who this Niemoeller is.

No, I meant Niemoeller.

170 Gus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:43:34pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

Drudge is working the NWO angle today: OBAMA PUSH FOR 'WORLD' REGULATIONS

Panic!

I was going to mention that. Once again people will just read that headline and it will only add to the hysteria:

OBAMA PUSH FOR 'WORLD' REGULATIONS

World regulations? When I read that I thought, "oh, he's going to push for an International Code on Everything." Of course that isn't the case and Obama was just commenting on financial regulations:

“We know we still have a lot to do, in conjunction with nations around the world, to strengthen the rules governing financial markets and ensure that we never again find ourselves in the precarious situation we found ourselves in just one year ago,”

This in itself would be a monumental task and one that wouldn't even get past strongly sovereign nations like Russia, China, Germany, etc.

Once gain Drudge pushed the hype button.

171 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:44:05pm

re: #168 EmmmieG
I think there are very legitimate reasons for homeschooling. If I had kids I'd consider it as well.

172 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:44:55pm

re: #166 Charles

Revolting, absolutely revolting. Bad enough to make one an advocate of hereditary aristocracy and feudalism, if only to keep these types from EVER gaining power.

173 victor_yugo  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:45:41pm

re: #168 EmmmieG

The oldest is in high school now, (she and her father wanted her to go), and snickered when the teacher told the English class that their reading was "the hardest you have done in your life." It isn't. She read 17 Shakespeare plays last year.

Good on her for sneering at condescending, failure-oriented attitudes.

174 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:46:29pm

re: #154 Charles

I'm not sure why it always seems to be necessary to say explicitly that "not all homeschoolers" are the Dobson-Falwell-Robertson types. Isn't that obvious?

But a very large number of homeschoolers DO fit into this category.

It's odd- folks see a criticism of a particular segment of the right, and rush to identify with it even when they're not a member of that specific group just to feel offended or defensive or something.

175 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:46:36pm

I had to include this as well:

My homeschooled until this fall daughter and I just went to a rock and mineral show. She originally wanted to buy a fossil, and I feared for her soul. Nevertheless, she decided on a pair of earrings instead.

Or, it could be that she's a teenage girl.

*snort, snicker*

176 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:47:43pm

re: #48 Cato the Elder

Given a choice between rule by Christian theocrats and Muslim ones, I think I'd choose...armed resistance.


If the lunatics really started running the asylum, I'd choose exile and vinho verde.

177 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:48:11pm

Stormfront Nazis thrilled that mainstream conservatives are warning of an impending race war...
How To Find Millions of Racists


How do you create millions of white racists? I have a theory.

I say you can do it by accusing a few million white folks who are not racists and just continue to accuse them of being racists on a daily basis. Keep doing it day after day and week after week, and pretty soon you might just have what you want. The human spirit cannot absorb but so much of this before the inclination to hate the accusers gains traction. What do you expect from just a bunch of "typical white people."
...
I submit that you are doing all this at your own risk, because you have no idea what the hell you are doing. You have no idea the hornets' nest you are poking. You have no idea what peril you are putting the country in. You are perhaps throwing away decades of progress on this front for the misguided idea you can score some cheap political points.
...
You risk accessing an outrage - so intense it is hard to put words to it - that comes from deep down within the human soul. It is a righteous anger. It can only swell up when you know with every fiber of your being that you are being wrongly accused of a heinous attitude and that your accusers are actually the guilty ones.


"Don't call us racists or welcome become racists!"

178 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:49:41pm

We looked at homeschooling for ours. Weighed the pros and cons, and decided it made little sense for us to try to do this on our own. We needed experts, and, after rejecting the notion of giving our cash to the coven of snake-handlers (I exaggerate a bit) who ran a school close by us, found a private religious school. Kid's done quite well there, professional educators and all, and we've done our bit at home to reinforce and deepen what she's learning.

When we were initially looking at homeschooling, though, we were flooded with solicitations for these fringe curricula and support groups.

179 debutaunt  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:49:42pm

There are too many horrible teachers and the union protects them instead of considering the the students.

180 erraticsphinx  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:50:49pm

re: #177 Killgore Trout

Somehow...I think they were already digusting racists. In the "depths of their human soul", as he would say.

181 Irenicum  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:51:44pm

I was inadvertently homeschooled in my teens when my middle school lost my records and the HS wouldn't take me b/c I didn't "exist" as far as they were concerned. Thankfully, my parents, separated/then divorced though they were, nonetheless instilled in me a love of learning that had me frequenting the public library frequently. I read what I liked, whether it was political magazines like National Review, New Republic, Mother Jones, or newspapers, usually 3 a day. Did I learn what school said was important? Not always. Did I get a well rounded education. I think I did. In fact, it was that rather non-conventional aspect to my educational background that got me into college. Now I do think that most of the homeschooling curriculum, especially of the "Christian" variety is awful on both science and history. They should be avoided like the plague. But that's not the same thing as saying that public education is all hunky dorey. There are home school resources out there that present opposing views on the controversial issues fairly evenly. But ultimately it's the parent's responsibility to see to it that their child is well educated and well rounded as a person. That can happen in both a public schooling environment as well as in a homeschooling environment.

182 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:52:00pm

because we live in a major metropolitan area, the options for homeschooling were huge. I'm not sure I would have been so intrigued by it if I lived in the hinterlands.

183 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:52:37pm

re: #177 Killgore Trout

Stormfront Nazis thrilled that mainstream conservatives are warning of an impending race war...
How To Find Millions of Racists


"Don't call us racists or welcome become racists!"

Yech.

You can see echoes of this attitude at Hot Air right now -- they're heavily promoting the view that there's no real racism on the right at all, that it's all made up by the MSM. And in the comments threads for these articles, there are outright racist remarks, right next to the ones mocking the MSM for accusing them of racism.

184 KingKenrod  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:53:12pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

Drudge is working the NWO angle today: OBAMA PUSH FOR 'WORLD' REGULATIONS

Panic!

I've come to believe many right wingers get their news from Drudge headlines. They don't even bother to click through. And somewhere Drudge is laughing his ass off at them.

185 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:53:59pm

Those parents in my home town who want their kids to have a private religious education send their kids to the local Catholic school or Pensacola Christian.

Those parents here who want their kids to have a private secular education send them to Pensacola Liberal Arts.

The Catholic school is sizeable, and Pensacola Christian is humongous.

Pensacola Liberal Arts is very very small.

186 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:54:01pm

When I was really considering homeschooling, a friend saw a blackboard at a garage sale--called me and asked me if I wanted it. I asked, WHY?. For some reason, she felt that it was a necessary part of education. "I have one child, why in the world would I need a blackboard" I asked her.

She didn't have an answer.

187 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:54:08pm

re: #154 Charles

I'm not sure why it always seems to be necessary to say explicitly that "not all homeschoolers" are the Dobson-Falwell-Robertson types. Isn't that obvious?

But a very large number of homeschoolers DO fit into this category.

What is the number?

188 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:54:37pm

re: #183 Charles

Yech.

You can see echoes of this attitude at Hot Air right now -- they're heavily promoting the view that there's no real racism on the right at all, that it's all made up by the MSM. And in the comments threads for these articles, there are outright racist remarks, right next to the ones mocking the MSM for accusing them of racism.

Too bad most of them are too dense to see the irony in that...

189 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:55:31pm

re: #186 ggt

When I was really considering homeschooling, a friend saw a blackboard at a garage sale--called me and asked me if I wanted it. I asked, WHY?. For some reason, she felt that it was a necessary part of education. "I have one child, why in the world would I need a blackboard" I asked her.

She didn't have an answer.

I have a 3 by 3 whiteboard I cart around and do math on. I have to put the boys in seperate rooms because antagonizing each other is an Olympic-level sport in this house.

190 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:55:53pm

re: #183 Charles

Yech.

You can see echoes of this attitude at Hot Air right now -- they're heavily promoting the view that there's no real racism on the right at all, that it's all made up by the MSM. And in the comments threads for these articles, there are outright racist remarks, right next to the ones mocking the MSM for accusing them of racism.

I do think the MSM race baits --not out of any particular agenda, but because the exception, not the rule, makes news and sells ads.

there is real racism and it does need to be exposed, i just wish there were some way to keep the 24/7 news cycle AND have perspective.

191 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:56:16pm

re: #189 EmmmieG

I have a 3 by 3 whiteboard I cart around and do math on. I have to put the boys in seperate rooms because antagonizing each other is an Olympic-level sport in this house.

ha! you are having lots of fun!

192 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:57:29pm

I gotta go

have a great Saturday Lizards!

193 Killgore Trout  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:57:39pm

re: #183 Charles

The hamfisted lefties overplaying the race card give them plenty of cover. One of the things that sent me over the edge the other day was Hot Air had a thread up laughing at stupid Jimmy Carter for playing the race card very poorly while calling Michelle a Wookie on another thread at the same time. Amazing.

194 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:59:15pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

The hamfisted lefties overplaying the race card give them plenty of cover. One of the things that sent me over the edge the other day was Hot Air had a thread up laughing at stupid Jimmy Carter for playing the race card very poorly while calling Michelle a Wookie on another thread at the same time. Amazing.

Calling people racists when they're not will not make them racists.

But it will make them loathe and despise you.

195 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:59:29pm

In the new, improved "no hate left" Hot Air comments section for their latest article about Michelle Obama, they're comparing her belt (what Drudge ridiculously called a "bondage" belt) to a suicide bomb belt. Another comment says Michelle Obama reminds him of Patty Hearst.

They're still seething over the new rules, and trying to find out how far they can push the limits with borderline racist remarks, and deliberately misspelled words to avoid being caught with a search.

196 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:59:43pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

The Michelle comments may well have been a racist riff over the cartridge-belt thing she was wearing the other day. Weird taste in fashion, this First Lady; very weird, indeed.

197 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:59:44pm

Check your inbox, Erik.

198 Irenicum  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:59:54pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

I am so glad I don't frequent these awful sites. I can just about barely deal with hearing about their disgusting content second hand.

199 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 12:59:59pm

re: #114 Shug

Sounds like Dobson has a spanking fetish.

A biblically supported fetish at that.

200 TedStriker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:00:03pm

re: #193 Killgore Trout

The hamfisted lefties overplaying the race card give them plenty of cover. One of the things that sent me over the edge the other day was Hot Air had a thread up laughing at stupid Jimmy Carter for playing the race card very poorly while calling Michelle a Wookie on another thread at the same time. Amazing.

Like I said, irony seems to be lost on the cretins at HA...what a bunch of dolts.

201 sphincter  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:00:03pm

re: #186 ggt

I do IT. I have had an enormous Whiteboard for years since the kids were tiny. We refinished our attic into my office and that's pretty much where the kids hung out while I was working from home when they were toddlers. They would play, draw, and amuse themselves for hours on the whiteboard while I was on conference calls, etc.

My son feels the need to "whiteboard" everything now. Whether it's in dirt on a soccer field or explaining something to a friend. The PowerPoint curse!!!

202 Irenicum  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:02:59pm

Well gang, it's a beautiful New England Saturday, it would be downright sinful for me not to enjoy it! See y'all later!

203 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:03:00pm

re: #199 eclectic infidel

A biblically supported fetish at that.

And he spake unto them, saying, "Strike ye them upon their buttocks, slowly at first, and then gradually building the speed wherewith thou strikest them, and take ye care, lest ye strike with too great a force. Fine indeed be the line between a good spanking and beating they partner's ass, and thy folly may turn a little fun into an assault charge."

204 victor_yugo  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:03:49pm

re: #201 sphincter

My son feels the need to "whiteboard" everything now. Whether it's in dirt on a soccer field or explaining something to a friend. The PowerPoint curse!!!

Nah, that's just demonstrating associative, non-linear thinking.

205 Irenicum  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:04:09pm

re: #203 Guanxi88

LOL! I'll avoid any wise "cracks" about that one!

206 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:04:51pm

re: #201 sphincter


I blame those damn UPS ads.

207 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:05:02pm

re: #157 Charles

Great clip Charles and the man is 100% right about the Left Behind Crowd. I used to post at another site and the owner of the blog actually posted that the reason the Flood happened was because people were manipulating DNA. She was trying to make the case again stem cell research. Being my sarcastic self, I said that I was not aware that microscopes were around at the time of Noah. The ignorance is unbelievable.

208 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:05:13pm

re: #114 Shug

Sounds like Dobson has a spanking fetish.

It's not exclusive to any religion. Gerald Gardner, one of the founders of moders Wicca, also had a spanking fetish.

209 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:05:23pm

re: #204 victor_yugo

Nah, that's just demonstrating associative, non-linear thinking.

Closer to the pattern of reality, certainly closer to the way the mind works.

210 sphincter  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:05:28pm

re: #206 Fenway_Nation

I'm glad those adds went away. That guy could use a haircut too.

211 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:05:56pm

re: #208 Salamantis

It's not exclusive to any religion. Gerald Gardner, one of the founders of moders Wicca, also had a spanking fetish.

Verily, all faiths share in the one Truth.

212 jvic  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:06:27pm

re: #164 sphincter

The wife was an accountant by trade but wanted to homeschool. In her family education was very important. Also, we take our faith seriously...

I know every family is different, but this was the right choice for us.

I'm on friendly terms with a homeschooling Christian family. The wife's father is a respected science professor at an established university. The couple seems aware both of their dissent from mainstream society and of their need to take a place in it.

While I don't know them well, I'd be astonished if she didn't do a better job than is done by most public schools.

213 victor_yugo  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:07:08pm

re: #209 Guanxi88

Closer to the pattern of reality, certainly closer to the way the mind works.

Speak for yourself. My mind is very linear.

214 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:08:28pm

re: #195 Charles

In the new, improved "no hate left" Hot Air comments section for their latest article about Michelle Obama, they're comparing her belt (what Drudge ridiculously called a "bondage" belt) to a suicide bomb belt. Another comment says Michelle Obama reminds him of Patty Hearst.

They're still seething over the new rules, and trying to find out how far they can push the limits with borderline racist remarks, and deliberately misspelled words to avoid being caught with a search.

They are going to defy the new soviet rules of heated atmospheric oppression!

215 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:08:44pm

re: #207 Chekote

I said that I was not aware that microscopes were around at the time of Noah.

They were lost in the flood.

216 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:08:48pm

re: #213 victor_yugo

Speak for yourself. My mind is very linear.

Well, linearity is how things get done, of course; you can't discard it. The associative techniques, while over-hyped, are certainly useful, if only to show alternative structures and patterns (generally linear) that might not be so obvious.

217 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:09:14pm

re: #195 Charles

In the new, improved "no hate left" Hot Air comments section for their latest article about Michelle Obama, they're comparing her belt (what Drudge ridiculously called a "bondage" belt) to a suicide bomb belt. Another comment says Michelle Obama reminds him of Patty Hearst.

They're still seething over the new rules, and trying to find out how far they can push the limits with borderline racist remarks, and deliberately misspelled words to avoid being caught with a search.

And to think there was a time I would have been happy to be registered/able to comment there...

218 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:09:15pm

Minds are like family trees; most branch out in all directions, but an unfortunate few resemble bamboo...;~)

219 Guanxi88  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:09:38pm

re: #218 Salamantis

Minds are like family trees; most branch out in all directions, but an unfortunate few resemble bamboo...;~)

And the wreaths, well, they're just yucky!

220 ryannon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:10:20pm

re: #166 Charles

What about the kids in this video?


[Video]


Well, you know how it is: everyone loves a parade - especially when you're a kid...

/

221 victor_yugo  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:11:14pm

re: #214 Sharmuta

The new soviet rules of heated atmospheric oppression!

Rotating title nominee!

222 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:11:21pm

A big reason why so many wingnuts are pissed off at me is because they assumed that since I was on the 'conservative' side on issues like foreign policy, I was also on board with the whole social conservative agenda, including all of the extreme forms like creationism and theocratic fundamentalism, the crypto-racism of people like Robert Stacy McCain, and the extreme anti-Islamism of Robert Spencer and the shrieking harpy Geller.

They made a lot of assumptions about my beliefs that were completely wrong. Now they're raging at me because they think I "betrayed" them -- when I was never on that train to begin with.

223 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:11:45pm

I am in agreement that there is some very whacky stuff in some far right Christian circles, but care should be taken so as not to villify "home schoolers" or "Christian schools." There are plenty of good families practicing home schooling, as well as the vast majority of Christian Schools.

224 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:12:54pm

re: #215 Fenway_Nation

LOL! It's kinda like the golden plates and Joseph Smith. I don't mean to offend anyone's religion.

225 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:13:07pm

re: #62 Charles

You might want to look into who Frank Schaeffer is, and how he was raised, before you dismiss him out of hand as just someone who's "bitter." He knew many of the leading figures in the far right evangelical movement -- his own father was one.

Yes, and his father was not weird, but respected for his writings and clear thinking about many Christian issues. Frank IS bitter which is easily discerned from his writings attacking his mother and his father, who is no longer here to defend himself. He was a brilliant man and widely admired by ordinary Christians. His father was not a nutcase at all, and in my opinion, would never have approved of these weirdos Frank is writing about.

226 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:13:11pm

re: #207 Chekote

Great clip Charles and the man is 100% right about the Left Behind Crowd. I used to post at another site and the owner of the blog actually posted that the reason the Flood happened was because people were manipulating DNA. She was trying to make the case again stem cell research. Being my sarcastic self, I said that I was not aware that microscopes were around at the time of Noah. The ignorance is unbelievable.

Well, then, you're simply out of touch with True History. It says right in the Bible that Man was created in a state of perfection in the Garden of Eden - and then screwed up. It's been one long, downhill slide during all of the 6000 years since then, with every passing day taking us farther and farther from our once perfect state. It shouldn't surprise you that the ancients, being much closer to those original perfect humans, knew all about genetic engineering, stem cells, nuclear fusion, microscopes and the wretched evil of public schooling. It may seem astonishing to us today, but that's only because we've fallen so much farther than they had.

/ [Do I really need this?]

You think I'm joking, but I've heard this argument before. It actually arose during the Middle Ages, and was a driving force behind the acceptance by the church of Aristotelian science - Aristotle, it was thought, had knowledge that was closer to perfection than contemporary, more corrupted mankind could ever hope to possess. Hence all the trouble when the Enlightenment got underway and Aristotle's observations started crumbling.

What's disturbing is that some still hold this attitude today, and will happily shut down their God-given brains and reasoning in favor of parroting such bilge.

227 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:13:50pm

re: #60 Shug

that's because you live in your mom's basement and your only social encounters involve dungeons and dragons

WHOA!! You had an upding till you had to bring in the dungeons and dragons...

/loved my Beserker with his sword of rage +5 ... had a thaco of -5. gosh...

228 Danny  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:14:06pm

re: #222 Charles

I have experienced this type of stereotyping from folks all across the political spectrum. It's nearly universal.

229 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:14:20pm

re: #223 Gordon Marock

I am in agreement that there is some very whacky stuff in some far right Christian circles, but care should be taken so as not to villify "home schoolers" or "Christian schools." There are plenty of good families practicing home schooling, as well as the vast majority of Christian Schools.

Nobody's done that. We're discussing a specific segment.

230 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:14:21pm

re: #222 Charles

Same here. I am for limited government but I do not subscribe to the social agenda. For that, I have been told that I am a liberal who doesn't want to pay taxes.

231 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:14:36pm

Uh oh. "Monkey" joke made at the "Values Voters" summit meeting today...

New post soon...

232 victor_yugo  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:14:37pm

I knew a Jewish woman in college, who had gone to a Catholic high school. I was surprised at the notion, so I asked her. She said, "Everyone knows the public schools in $CITY totally suck. Anyone who can afford it sends their kids to private school."

I also asked her about "the rules" and how much they grated on her Jewish background. She said, "Not at all. The rules about chapel and stuff only applied to the Catholic students."

233 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:14:43pm

re: #169 victor_yugo

No, I meant Niemoeller.

Okay, muffins are in the oven.

Thanks for the link. (Bonhoeffer actually tried to murder Hitler and was executed for it.) No, Niemoller won't, in my opinion, end up in hell for standing up to Hitler. I expected someone to come back with the Founding Fathers and ask why they aren't in hell.

My answer is: professing Christians aren't perfect, and none of us is going to follow Christ perfectly. And while I quoted one bit of scripture, it must be balanced against all the other scriptures. It cannot and should not be taken out of context. I cannot judge who goes to hell. I can, however, point to a scripture that I think these people who want to set up a Christian Theocracy need to seriously consider before they go any farther in their rhetoric. While I'm trying to work on the areas where I feel I'm falling short of the standard of Christ, I would hope that other Christians would see those scriptures and think carefully before they started working toward such a theocratic society on earth.

234 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:17:03pm

re: #229 Sharmuta

I didn't think so. I guess I just feel guilty because I, along with most friends, regularly mock 'home schoolers' but my next door neighbors home school three boys and the whole family is super and very non-judgmental.

235 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:17:19pm

re: #222 Charles

A big reason why so many wingnuts are pissed off at me is because they assumed that since I was on the 'conservative' side on issues like foreign policy, I was also on board with the whole social conservative agenda, including all of the extreme forms like creationism and theocratic fundamentalism, the crypto-racism of people like Robert Stacy McCain, and the extreme anti-Islamism of Robert Spencer and the shrieking harpy Geller.

They made a lot of assumptions about my beliefs that were completely wrong. Now they're raging at me because they think I "betrayed" them -- when I was never on that train to begin with.

That's because they labor under a massive self-contradiction; they devoutly desire to expand democracy, choice and freedom abroad, while simultaneously striving to truncate them at home.

As far as I can tell, you do not suffer from such an internal ideological contradiction; you want to see democracy, choice and freedom maximized for all, both foreign and domestic.

In their heart of hearts, they know that they are contradictory, and you are not. Which is why they resent and harangue you. I see it as shame, guilt, and envy-based.

236 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:18:30pm

re: #207 Chekote

Great clip Charles and the man is 100% right about the Left Behind Crowd. I used to post at another site and the owner of the blog actually posted that the reason the Flood happened was because people were manipulating DNA. She was trying to make the case again stem cell research. Being my sarcastic self, I said that I was not aware that microscopes were around at the time of Noah. The ignorance is unbelievable.

The vast, vast, VAST majority of Christians would roll their eyes at that. I have never heard of anything so ridiculous. As a believer, I think that idea is completely looney. I do hope that nobody believes that is typical of Christianity.

237 Fenway_Nation  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:18:36pm

re: #227 Oh no...Sand People!

Oh, come on! You're gonna kill me because I had fake sex on graph paper with a girl who barely spoke to you in real life?

Rusty Venture- The Venture Brothers

238 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:20:00pm

re: #226 SixDegrees

The same person I was talking about claimed that her great-great-great grandma was born premature (two or three months) and they kept her alive by constructing a special oven to keep her warm. How nutrition was given, I didn't bother to ask. Schaeffer is right. You can't reason with them. But the GOP needs to move away from these elements and quit worrying about who will stuff the envelopes and make calls.

239 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:20:09pm

It really comes down to the limited number of labels people use, such as conservative, liberal, religious, libertarian. I am a libertarian, but can't stand the word now after I found out how psycho Ron Paul really is. And because conservative or liberal don't describe me, I am left without a description I fell good about.

240 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:20:29pm

re: #235 Salamantis

The double ding didn't work ;(

241 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:21:01pm

re: #239 Gordon Marock

It really comes down to the limited number of labels people use, such as conservative, liberal, religious, libertarian. I am a libertarian, but can't stand the word now after I found out how psycho Ron Paul really is. And because conservative or liberal don't describe me, I am left without a description I fell good about.

rational moderate?

242 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:21:17pm

re: #239 Gordon Marock

It really comes down to the limited number of labels people use, such as conservative, liberal, religious, libertarian. I am a libertarian, but can't stand the word now after I found out how psycho Ron Paul really is. And because conservative or liberal don't describe me, I am left without a description I fell good about.

However, I do feel comfortable describing myself as 'super-hot'

243 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:21:45pm

re: #222 Charles

It would be better to just talk about their wrong ideas and thinking and why instead of calling names imo. They may be/are incorrect, but better to argue against their ideas.

Ok, downdingers, . . . go for it.

244 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:22:14pm

re: #239 Gordon Marock

I agree. I've decided to call myself an Anti-fascist Conservative. It's sad it's come to the point people have to make up their own labels, but to get back to your earlier point, I don't think anyone on this thread has slammed all people who home school. Just the ones following this ultra-fundamentalist line.

245 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:22:14pm

re: #239 Gordon Marock

Why can't you just be Gordon?

246 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:22:19pm

re: #223 Gordon Marock

I am in agreement that there is some very whacky stuff in some far right Christian circles, but care should be taken so as not to villify "home schoolers" or "Christian schools." There are plenty of good families practicing home schooling, as well as the vast majority of Christian Schools.

I want to stress this point as well. Homeschooling is not simply a matter of the far right. We home school, and our decision was largely based on the experience both of us had teaching homeschooled kids at the collegiate level. They have consistently been our best students, and I wouldn't consider any of the ones I've dealt with to be part of any sort of radical Christian right. Quite the opposite: most of them are pretty liberal, if not on the radical fringe of the left.

247 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:22:40pm

re: #241 _RememberTonyC

rational moderate?

I was thinkin more along the lines of a cross between a Vulcan and a Klingon. . . . VulKling?

248 Chekote  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:23:47pm

re: #236 avspatti

I agree. But Schaeffer is talking about a sub-culture of evangelical Christianity. The Left Behind crowd. I have seen posts asking for "Jesus please come soon". You can't reason with that.

249 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:24:23pm

re: #247 Gordon Marock

I was thinkin more along the lines of a cross between a Vulcan and a Klingon. . . . VulKling?

Those two do *not* co-mingle. :D

250 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:24:29pm

re: #245 avspatti

Why can't you just be Gordon?

I don't like to dwell on 'Gordon' because I was once falsely accused as being associated with a sinister person named 'Nodrog.' It was really quite a hassle right after I first registered on LGF.

251 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:25:31pm

re: #249 vxbush

Those two do *not* co-mingle. :D

Just maybe, think about a being with the 'best' qualities of each race being combined into one!

252 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:26:55pm

re: #164 sphincter

The wife was an accountant by trade but wanted to homeschool. In her family education was very important. Also, we take our faith seriously. It was fulfilling for her, it has worked really well with the kids, and I'm pleased with the outcome. She has done a great job of it and I'm very proud of her.

Being homeschooled doesn't mean the kids can't participate in activities like band or soccer or even drama club. Our kids did and one still does.

I know every family is different, but this was the right choice for us.

Here is the pitch...the swing...*POW*

Knocked it out of the park!
Nice posts.

253 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:28:15pm

re: #203 Guanxi88

And he spake unto them, saying, "Strike ye them upon their buttocks, slowly at first, and then gradually building the speed wherewith thou strikest them, and take ye care, lest ye strike with too great a force. Fine indeed be the line between a good spanking and beating they partner's ass, and thy folly may turn a little fun into an assault charge."

Link?

254 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:29:23pm

re: #238 Chekote

The same person I was talking about claimed that her great-great-great grandma was born premature (two or three months) and they kept her alive by constructing a special oven to keep her warm. How nutrition was given, I didn't bother to ask. Schaeffer is right. You can't reason with them. But the GOP needs to move away from these elements and quit worrying about who will stuff the envelopes and make calls.

I completely agree. Conservatism was and always has been an economic construct. When the movement really started growing under Goldwater, there was a great deal of residual fear about all the commies hiding under beds everywhere, and their plan to do away with religion given the chance. Conservatism, with it's promise of small, non-intrusive government, made an implicit guarantee that freedom of religion would be protected, and that implication drew the religious right strongly.

Not a problem. Until those same RRs began to assert control over the party and using their position to promote a fundamentalist Christian agenda of a nationwide theocracy imposed through government power. No one seems to notice that this agenda is as anti-Conservative as it is possible to be; it flushes the concepts of limited government and freedom of the individual right down the crapper in favor of government-imposed religious dogma. We're seeing just one arm of this agenda reaching into the public school system attempting to turn it into a nationwide system of fundamentalist madrassas.

Given more time, they'll pass laws governing moral behavior, speech and dress. Think stuffing women into burkhas is bad? Wait until Pat Robertson's followers get to legislate what woman get to wear - and aren't allowed to wear.

Without any strong, effective Conservative leaders in the GOP, I am rapidly moving toward promoting a new Conservative party, grounded in a clear set of principles that includes a prohibition on the establishment of religion through government force. You know - sort of like what the Constitution already guarantees, but something the Religious Right wants to shit all over.

255 jvic  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:30:26pm

re: #222 Charles

A big reason why so many wingnuts are pissed off at me is because they assumed that since I was on the 'conservative' side on issues like foreign policy, I was also on board with the whole social conservative agenda, including all of the extreme forms...

They made a lot of assumptions about my beliefs that were completely wrong. Now they're raging at me because they think I "betrayed" them -- when I was never on that train to begin with.

A big reason for my anger at the Republican Party is that I think their primary purpose was 'the whole social conservative agenda' and they deliberately strung me along to get my vote.

How did the leadership not realize that there would be a reckoning? Maybe they didn't care because they intended to cash out.

256 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:32:33pm

Reading the later parts of Schaeffer's piece, I found this comment rather odd:


Over the last 30 years Evangelical fundamentalists have managed to do what Chairman Mao failed to do with his Red Guards: indoctrinate a whole generation of evangelical people to see their own society as the enemy and act like subversives from within the culture. These people are more anti-American than Al-Qaeda.

OK, perhaps this is true of some of the more radical sects. But it is equally true of the far left. We have seen that over and over again since 9/11 -- the pathological hatred of the radical left of America and western civilization generally.

Maybe what we are seeing here is not a characteristic of just one subgroup, but of the older sort of pre-marxian utopian socialism that has found fertile soil in this country for well over two centuries. The Anabaptists, the Intentional Communities and utopian settlements of the nineteenth century, and their descendants -- a whole host of sectarian movements on the fringes of the Protestant denominations -- were all secessionist by nature. They sought to cut themselves off from the rest of the corrupt society. Within their own ranks, they sought to construct socialist utopias. And, ultimately, all of these movements either fell away on account of internal squabbles or were absorbed by the larger society.

These "right wing fundamentalist" movements share a common utopian socialist origin with the radical ideologies of the far left -- anarchism and syndicalism. Both reject the possibility of working within the system. But the end result is that both end up on the margins.

257 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:33:05pm

re: #251 Gordon Marock

Just maybe, think about a being with the 'best' qualities of each race being combined into one!

Part of me wants to say "The Dominion," but if you didn't watch DS9 you might not get the reference.

258 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:34:25pm

re: #250 Gordon Marock

I don't like to dwell on 'Gordon' because I was once falsely accused as being associated with a sinister person named 'Nodrog.' It was really quite a hassle right after I first registered on LGF.

I'll bet.

Of course I had trouble with a bully named "Marock" in grade school, but I won't hold that against you.

259 SixDegrees  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:36:02pm

re: #244 Sharmuta

I agree. I've decided to call myself an Anti-fascist Conservative. It's sad it's come to the point people have to make up their own labels, but to get back to your earlier point, I don't think anyone on this thread has slammed all people who home school. Just the ones following this ultra-fundamentalist line.

You shouldn't have to declare a bunch of branches of Conservatism. There's no such thing as a "Fascist Conservative"; Fascism is fundamentally opposed to Conservatism with it's emphasis on massive government intervention in the marketplace. Conservatism, as Goldwater espoused it, is a single thing that doesn't need to be splintered.

See my post just above. Social "conservatives" are anything but; again, they've attempting to force their own beliefs and behaviors on everyone through the ham-fisted mechanism of government force, the antithesis of Conservatism.

Conservatism is a fine label. The problem is that the movement has been hijacked by others attempting to piggyback their own goals onto Conservatism's success. What needs to happen is to firmly declare that the Religious Right, the Randall Terrys, the Tom Delays, the Birchers and others are NOT Conservatives in any sense of the word. Their votes are welcome if their interests happen to overlap with those of Conservatism, but overlap is all that's acceptable. Adopting their anti-Conservative agenda is not.

260 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:36:49pm

re: #97 Shug

interesting isn't it that the most vicious hate mail is always from the ultra religious

That depends on who that hate mail is addressed to. Plenty of that stuff from the atheists and left as well.

261 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:37:14pm

re: #254 SixDegrees

We shouldn't forget that until 1980 the "fundamentalists" were not part of the conservative coalition. From the late nineteenth century until Jimmy Carter really pissed them off, they consistently voted for the Democrats. When they crossed party lines, they brought with them the old milquetoast-socialism of the Populists -- these are people who have always believed in using the power of government to pursue their own ends; they merely changed their mind about which party would be the best instrument.

262 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:38:58pm

re: #257 vxbush

Part of me wants to say "The Dominion," but if you didn't watch DS9 you might not get the reference.

Yes, I watched DS9.

263 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:40:26pm

re: #248 Chekote

I agree. But Schaeffer is talking about a sub-culture of evangelical Christianity. The Left Behind crowd. I have seen posts asking for "Jesus please come soon". You can't reason with that.

Well, the Bible says, "Lord, come quickly." However, it in NO way implies that we are to live just thinking about that.

264 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:40:41pm

re: #262 Gordon Marock

Yes, I watched DS9.

I know a lot of Trekkies who couldn't stand DS9, so they completely skipped that series.

I say "Dominion" because they were completely sure of their own superiority and they had the power to back it up most of the time. Of course, technically those are both the worst parts of Vulcans and Klingons, but it's what came to mind first--after "Humans."

/half sarc

265 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:42:46pm

re: #255 jvic

A big reason for my anger at the Republican Party is that I think their primary purpose was 'the whole social conservative agenda' and they deliberately strung me along to get my vote.

How did the leadership not realize that there would be a reckoning? Maybe they didn't care because they intended to cash out.

It depends on what part of the country you're dealing with.

My sense is that the party leadership adopted the social conservatism line for a couple of reasons. First of all, they accepted the myth (which is what it was) that social conservatives gave us Reagan. No, Jimmy Carter, "Stagflation," and the Iranians did that. And Reagan was hardly a "social conservative" in the way they suggest. Secondly, they readily accepted the notion that the "culture wars" were the key to regaining power. But the cultural lines were never so firmly drawn as the far right claimed; if anything, the right alienated people who would have been natural allies in the fight to improve education and ditch deconstructionist nonsense by becoming dedicatedly anti-intellectual (thank you Bush I and II).

In other words, it was tactical; not strategic. In fact, I don't think the party leadership has the slightest clue regarding strategy.

266 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:43:26pm

re: #86 davinvalkri

Internet friend of mine

internet friend?

267 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:44:18pm

re: #262 Gordon Marock

I thought it was ok, but got bored after a while.

268 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:45:52pm

re: #212 jvic

I recently left after teaching in a public high school for several years, and every day I was thankful that my sons were grown. There is NO WAY I would put my kids in the public schools today. I am sure that there are some good ones, but many are disasters.

269 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:46:08pm

re: #249 vxbush

Those two do *not* co-mingle. :D

Obviously you've never been to "DragonCon" ...

270 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:46:13pm

re: #267 Lucius Septimius

Yeah, too much talk sometimes, and sitting around in that f'ing bar..

271 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:46:23pm

homeschooling needs to be illegal.

272 kiwiviv  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:47:02pm

re: #271 SpaceJesus

homeschooling needs to be illegal.

YOU need to be illegal!

273 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:47:16pm

re: #42 SpaceJesus

Professional educators, eh? Some are; many aren't.

274 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:47:29pm

re: #268 avspatti

I spent a decade supervising student teachers in the schools my kids would most likely have gone to. That was a depressing experience. One thing that annoyed me was that the best teachers were overworks, but the worst ones seemed to get all the perks, mainly because they knew how to play the game.

275 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:47:43pm

re: #269 Lucius Septimius

Obviously you've never been to "DragonCon" ...

Very true. I don't attend any scifi/fantasy/trek conventions. Even when they're in town.

276 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:48:19pm

re: #270 Gordon Marock

Yeah, too much talk sometimes, and sitting around in that f'ing bar..

And they didn't go anywhere but back and forth into the hole.

I did think the shapechanger guy was pretty cool.

277 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:48:41pm

re: #275 vxbush

Very true. I don't attend any scifi/fantasy/trek conventions. Even when they're in town.

Wise move. Those are some very odd folks.

278 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:51:14pm

re: #272 kiwiviv

Who the hell are you to say that to SpaceJesus?

279 vxbush  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:54:47pm

re: #277 Lucius Septimius

Wise move. Those are some very odd folks.

Exactly. I'm weird enough; I don't need help.

280 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:54:56pm

re: #273 avspatti

Professional educators, eh? Some are; many aren't.

beats the going rate for homeschooling parents

281 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:56:52pm

fine. keep home schooling legal. fill the world with socially inept ultra-conservative weirdos, lgf 2 needs more users.

282 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:56:53pm

re: #280 SpaceJesus

beats the going rate for homeschooling parents

Hardly.

283 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:58:30pm

re: #282 Lucius Septimius

Hardly.


how many home school parents have college degrees in education or professional education experience?

284 harpsicon  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 1:59:09pm

re: #34 Guanxi88

And that's why these folk are dangerous, because they are ready, willing, and able to teach just these things, but it comes with a lot of baggage.

Exactly. I see from the other thread that you're in TX. Me too. Some of the very nicest people I know home school. Their kids are great. But we part company on things like evolution...

So yes, the lovely public schools I grew up with, and got an education better than most available today, are as dead as the dodo.

Now you get to pay twice, school taxes and private tuition, and hope that the private school is not too bad. But it makes me feel bad - very undemocratic somehow, and our opting out doesn't make the public schools any better.

I talk to a lot of the education reformers, and even the liberals among them don't have much good to say about the teachers' unions. But with Obama even willing to kill charter schools in D.C., this is going to be a long battle

285 Gordon Marock  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:02:22pm

re: #283 SpaceJesus

how many home school parents have college degrees in education or professional education experience?

I am suspicious of anyone who would give the government the power to force a parent to send their kid anywhere, including a public school.

286 Lucius Septimius  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:02:34pm

re: #283 SpaceJesus

how many home school parents have college degrees in education or professional education experience?

Some. The vast majority had degrees in real academic disciplines as well as real-world experience making a living. "Education" degrees generally have hardly any content instruction at all -- it's mostly educational theory.

I've been in the education business for more than 20 years, and I've seen nothing to support the generalization that home-schooled students are "socially inept", "ultra-conservative" or weirdos.

287 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:12:13pm

re: #286 Lucius Septimius

Some. The vast majority had degrees in real academic disciplines as well as real-world experience making a living. "Education" degrees generally have hardly any content instruction at all -- it's mostly educational theory.

I've been in the education business for more than 20 years, and I've seen nothing to support the generalization that home-schooled students are "socially inept", "ultra-conservative" or weirdos.

actually, a quick google search shows me that a full third of homeschooling parents only have a high school diploma.

you see it from the "business" end, I see it in the workplace, school, and out in public. hell, being homeschooled is practically synonymous with being socially backwards and one dimensional among people my age. when you deny your children to the ability to interact with their peers, what do you expect?

288 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:15:36pm

re: #285 Gordon Marock

I am suspicious of anyone who would give the government the power to force a parent to send their kid anywhere, including a public school.


it should be mandatory for every child to attend a public, or private school.

the only reason people homeschool their children is because private religious schools aren't conservative enough for them. in other words, psychopaths.

289 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:24:49pm

re: #288 SpaceJesus

I strongly disagree with that. Many public schools, esp. high schools are chaotic, with out of control students whom the administrators are unwilling to take on for whatever reason and due to this, education is hard to come by. I know this from personal experience.

290 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:30:58pm

re: #287 SpaceJesus

actually, a quick google search shows me that a full third of homeschooling parents only have a high school diploma.

you see it from the "business" end, I see it in the workplace, school, and out in public. hell, being homeschooled is practically synonymous with being socially backwards and one dimensional among people my age. when you deny your children to the ability to interact with their peers, what do you expect?

I did not homeschool my sons, but there are many ways for homeschooling parent to have their children with others, even to interact with public school students in various activities/sports.re: #280 SpaceJesus

beats the going rate for homeschooling parents

Don't be too sure of that. I have highly educated teacher friends who homeschool their own children because the KNOW what goes on in many public schools.

291 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:31:08pm

re: #289 avspatti

I strongly disagree with that. Many public schools, esp. high schools are chaotic, with out of control students whom the administrators are unwilling to take on for whatever reason and due to this, education is hard to come by. I know this from personal experience.


Sure, there's out of control students everywhere, and they're going to be in college too. Sheltering your kids from them is futile.

You want your kids to be away from those types? Make them take AP and honors classes. Put them in band or orchestra, make them join key club, debate club (my favorite back when) etc. The kids will be around other driven, intelligent kids all the time, and be better off for it. But oh heavens, some of the those other intelligent kids might be from different religions or cultures or have different beliefs. oh my, what then?

292 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:32:56pm

re: #290 avspatti

Don't be too sure of that. I have highly educated teacher friends who homeschool their own children because the KNOW what goes on in many public schools.

so? my family is full of teachers, including my mom. i've heard nothing but negative things about homeschooling from them. in other words, not a single teacher i know would ever recommend it.

293 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:35:32pm

re: #250 Gordon Marock

Ah, yes. I remember Nodrog well. Don't blame you.

294 kaziggy2  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:40:36pm

That article is waaay off . It is crazy and down right idiotic. I go to a large non-denominational evangelical church in the Pacific Northwest and some people homeschool and some don't. But I"ve not come across any kids or parents who sound even romotely like the people in that article. They all live in the "real" world with "real" jobs and are not socially backwards are "brainwashed". There are many business owners in this area who hire these young people for their great skills, character, work ethic and knowledge. I think the gentleman who wrote that article had a "bone to pick" with his own parents plain and simple.

295 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:40:43pm

re: #291 SpaceJesus

No need to imply I am down on other cultures, especially since I teach international students from all over the world. I have learned a lot about their cultures and like them tremendously. I really resent your implication that I am an ignorant, fearful of 'different' people woman. You have no idea about my involvement with people from different cultures and countries. Perhaps, you should rethink your stereotyping.

296 Flyers1974  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:42:12pm

re: #290 avspatti

Don't be too sure of that. I have highly educated teacher friends who homeschool their own children because the KNOW what goes on in many public schools.

The key here is, how many is many? What goes on in public schools I think depends on where that school is located and is that area poor, wealthy, or in the middle, etc... . In other words, its not the public school system that determines things, it's the students who attend.

297 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:42:53pm

re: #292 SpaceJesus

Worried about the competition?

298 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:47:03pm

re: #296 Flyers1974

I agree that it is not primarily the students; it is the administrators. All students will test the limits, but when the classroom teacher's attempt to provide consequences for bad behavior and the administrators don't back her/him up, the students then realize that anything goes. There is no learning for serious students in such a chaotic atmosphere.

The public high school where I taught went through three principals in four years and two superintendents.

299 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:50:52pm

re: #295 avspatti

No need to imply I am down on other cultures, especially since I teach international students from all over the world. I have learned a lot about their cultures and like them tremendously. I really resent your implication that I am an ignorant, fearful of 'different' people woman. You have no idea about my involvement with people from different cultures and countries. Perhaps, you should rethink your stereotyping.

my observation of homeschool families i grew up around tells me that the motivation for homeschooling is probably a combination of things.

it's a combination of siege mentality, religious extremism, xenophobia, and MY CHILD syndrome (my child is perfect, brilliant, it's always something else's fault etc.-- kind of like what you see in the anti-vaccination crowd actually).

these elements come in different quantities for each homeschool parent, but it's rare that all of them are not present together.

300 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:52:09pm

re: #298 avspatti

I agree that it is not primarily the students; it is the administrators. All students will test the limits, but when the classroom teacher's attempt to provide consequences for bad behavior and the administrators don't back her/him up, the students then realize that anything goes. There is no learning for serious students in such a chaotic atmosphere.

The public high school where I taught went through three principals in four years and two superintendents.

that's why you put your kids in AP or honors classes where the students are way more focused and serious.

301 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 2:55:15pm

re: #296 Flyers1974

The key here is, how many is many? What goes on in public schools I think depends on where that school is located and is that area poor, wealthy, or in the middle, etc... . In other words, its not the public school system that determines things, it's the students who attend.

There's a group that rates schools not based on how they're doing, but on how they should be doing. In other words, based on the socioeconomic level of the parents and the educational background of the parents, how should this school be doing?

Very enlightening.

302 SpaceJesus  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:01:18pm

just got done reading a bunch of homeschool-your-kid sites and the home school legal defense site etc. there is absolutely no question in mind this is a cultural thing. this has absolutely nothing to do with education or quality of education. it's entirely a culture-clash mentality. these are the same kinds of people who were paranoid of obama's school speech, but times 2 on the crazy scale.

303 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:07:39pm

re: #300 SpaceJesus

Do you have children? Not every student has the ability or the grades to be in AP classes. That doesn't mean they don't want to learn. Many are just stuck in regular classrooms with out-of-control students.

304 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:13:32pm

re: #294 kaziggy2

There is no doubt that F. Schaeffer had a bone to pick with his parents and has chosen an immature way to do it. Read some of his other articles on other topics, and this comes across loud and clear. It is sad, really.
.

305 Charles Johnson  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:17:13pm

re: #304 avspatti

There is no doubt that F. Schaeffer had a bone to pick with his parents and has chosen an immature way to do it. Read some of his other articles on other topics, and this comes across loud and clear. It is sad, really.
.

This is just complete nonsense. You haven't even read Schaeffer's book, obviously, or you would realize how incredibly wrong-headed your characterization is. You're trying to dismiss what he says because it's hitting a little too close to home.

306 Sharmuta  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:17:38pm

These people give a bad name to Christians, they give a bad name to home schoolers. I don't think it's fair to get upset with SpaceJesus and others for noticing they're pretty whacked- if it makes you feel like it's reflecting on you, take it up with the whacked.

307 sagehen  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:29:40pm

These are the kind of people they're talking about:

Tell me how this is any different than madrassas training suicide bombers?

308 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 3:32:07pm

re: #14 Charles

Note that calling a woman a "Jezebel" is the most deadly insult a fundamentalist can issue.

Jezebel was a biblical queen who turned Israel away from God and toward paganism, and the Old Testament God punished her by having her killed by her servants and her corpse eaten by dogs.

That's what they're wishing on Nancy Pelosi.

Charles -

I must be a moderate as to Mme. Speaker. All I wish for her is a speedy retirement from the Speakership. In other circumstances I might have wished that she spend the rest of her life stumbling about like a blind horse in a ditch - don't have to - she is doing a good job of it without anyone's help.

-S-

309 lostlakehiker  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 4:56:15pm
They believe they are serving a "higher cause" so it makes the "mere human" rules unimportant. They're ready to shout down opponents, call out "liar" about someone telling the truth, undermine public meetings and/or commit physical violence. They are also willing to become the tools of cynical corporate lobbyists using them for ulterior purposes, say stalling health care reform.

In order to "win" -- in other words destroy our country as we know it -- the far right merely needs to be true to its own rule which is, to put it very mildly, that coloring outside the lines is not only perfectly okay but required.


This is so far wide of the mark when it comes to the typical home-schooled child that it's hard to know where to begin. The home-schooled kids I run across in the line of duty are sensible and polite, and they are neither politically nor religiously on the fringe.

On the topic of health care, the opposition to what it pleases Obama and Pelosi to term "reform" when it comes to health care comes not just from the radical right, but from masses of people who see all sorts of downsides to the proposed steps. Camille Paglia has written about the arrogance and unrealism of the official democratic party position that this opposition is entirely astroturf, the work of 'cynical corporate lobbyists.'

As to that line about "call out liar to someone telling the truth", it is an established matter of public record that the factual claims Obama was making, reciting incidents of abuse of preexisting condition rules by insurance companies, were not accurate. Now perhaps he wasn't lying. Perhaps he just decided that the story was such a beautiful debate-winner of a talking point that checking it would only risk spoiling it. If you don't know for sure that it's inaccurate, you aren't exactly lying when you say it.

But that's the paper-thin margin by which Obama can be said not to have been lying. No way was he "telling the truth".

Frank Schaeffer needs to get some perspective. Home schooling is not treason, the proposed changes in the U.S. medical care system are of debatable merit, and Obama isn't any model of veracity.

310 Kevlaur  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:52:29pm

re: #62 Charles

I said he sounded bitter. Not that he was bitter. Get it?

311 Kevlaur  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:53:07pm

re: #15 Shug

Being called a prostitute/whore is a compliment?

312 kiwiviv  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 5:53:14pm

re: #278 Sharmuta

Who the hell are you to say that to SpaceJesus?

Sorry - I had to leave -

There are a whole lot of very balanced and intelligent young people who have been home schooled. To make the statement that home schooling should be illegal is asinine. Why don't you ask SpaceJesus who the hell he is to make such an over-reaching comment? No - he agrees with your position, so you have to be snippy at me. Making home schooling illegal is not the answer here - it was a cheap shot and I gave a cheap shot back, but you certainly haven't helped the debate at all.

313 kiwiviv  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:04:06pm

This is a typical independent evaluation of home schoolers vs students who have attended public schools:

[Link: www.hslda.org...]

In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile.


I am not silly enough to say that all home schooling is totally wonderful and all home schooled children are perfect - however, there is no need to go the other way. There are some lunatics on the right, but to attribute it to the evils of home schooling is too broad of a brush - Sharmuta - that was all I was trying to say to SpaceJesus

314 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:48:07pm

re: #305 Charles

This is just complete nonsense. You haven't even read Schaeffer's book, obviously, or you would realize how incredibly wrong-headed your characterization is. You're trying to dismiss what he says because it's hitting a little too close to home.

I have read many excerpts from his book as well as many of his articles and interviews. I resent your implying that I have no legitimate reason to think FS is bitter. If hitting to close to home is implying that I am one of those freaks he is talking about, then I must ask for an apology. It is true that I am a Christian, but certainly not one on the fringes he is discussing.

315 tjseagrove  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:50:18pm

re: #66 Charles

James Dobson is not a leading figure in the homeschooling movement. He may have a large voice over radio but did not start advocating homeschooling until maybe 8-9 years ago. As for leadership, I have never seen any of his influence within homeschooling circles other than some of his books for sale at conventions. Some of the "leaders," if we want to point out leaders, would be a number of people who do not have a big voice outside of the "movement".

Most leaders are just moms and dads at local levels. The one person who has had the biggest influence nationally would be Michael Farris of Home School Legal Defense Association who has advocated for homeschooling since the early days.

The latest study shows that home schooled children score quite well on standardized test when compared to public school children and that parental education or qualifications have little influence on educational achievement. Tests include CAT and Iowa test, same as public school children would take. The averages were about the 85th percentile level compared to the 50th percentile of public school.

[Link: www.hslda.org...]

Tom

316 avspatti  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 6:57:23pm

Furthermore, I have read all his father's books and even those few written by his mother since before he was even born. He developed polio as a child, and many, many prayers were said for his recovery. I am not from the same denomination as the Schaffer family. I just find it insulting that I am implied to be ignorant of Frankie Schaffer.

Bring on the downdings.

317 tjseagrove  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:02:44pm

re: #281 SpaceJesus

You sure have posted a lot of comments here using multiple ad hominum attacks. I assume the "facts" that are absent from your statements are forthcoming?

Tom

318 gantww  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:16:30pm

re: #27 Enkidu90046

Have the republican's always been stuck in the sphincter of religious fundamentalism, or is this a fairly recent thing?

319 gantww  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 7:20:34pm

re: #40 Enkidu90046

I don't think it will be fast or easy (or for that matter likely) for the religious right to be exorcised from the Republican party, but it is necessary if the party is to survive as a co-equal to the Democratic party. I wish there were a viable centrist party with real power that was pro-science, socially liberal and conservative with respect to economics and foreign relations.

Well, which party out of the two big ones would be easiest to take over and remake this way? Since the repubs just got spanked in the last election, one would think it would be easiest to pull it off with them (until the whole tea party business, when they accelerated in the wrong direction).

320 kiwiviv  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 8:05:26pm

re: #318 gantww

Have the republican's always been stuck in the sphincter of religious fundamentalism, or is this a fairly recent thing?

It might very well be that the animosity and nastiness from the far right has brought offense and disdain, but comments like this are certainly unneeded and decidedly unhelpful.

321 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 8:12:22pm

re: #13 Guanxi88

Interesting take on the Evangelical Red Guards - they have never lived in America, having been in the cocoon of their ideologies from birth til the present, living like foreigners, in effect, in the land of their birth.

Amish & Mennonite do likewise, but they're not hostile, don't mean to make over the world, and really just want to be left alone, and are willing to extend that courtesy to others. That's the difference between a sect and a cult.

These guys, though, they're a friggin' apocalyptic political cult. Not good, people, not good at all.

The Mennonites, especially, punch well above their weight in their disaster relief efforts. I rank Mennonite Disaster Service up there with the Salvation Army, in terms of effectiveness.

322 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 8:15:54pm

re: #23 Salamantis

Most Christians integrate well into the community; hell, they ARE most of the community!

But significant numbersof them apparently segregate themselves in isolated, insulated fundamentalist countercultures, from which they emerge with a militant and alien agenda that intentionally endangers all our freedoms.

Why does this so much remind me of Muslims in the US, most of which seamlessly integrate and benefit our shared nation, while a fanatical fundamentalist subculture are a danger to us all?

For half a century, liberals have tried to sue Christianity out of public life, and it's still here, with adherents that are stronger, more numerous, angrier, and yes more alienated than before. Libs should start remembering some of that "celebrate our diversity" stuff, and rethink their approach.

323 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 8:23:28pm

Although they are no doubt statistically insignificant, I know a left-leaning couple--though still Christian--who homeschooled their four children. It was mostly because they were Northern transplants in a rural deep-South area where the public schools were notso-hotso. All the kids turned out splendidly.

As for the stereotype of mind-numbed god-botherers imposing their morals on everyone, homeschoolers may well retort, "When have secularlists ever been shy about imposing their lack of morals on us?" I'm no fundie, but that attitude definitely resonates with me, having small children as I do.

324 pbird  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 8:43:53pm

Three of my children, who were homeschooled are very successful adults now. (One chose to attend public high school.) I certainly don't know any homeschoolers who hate the country or think they are saving their children from satan by homeschooling. Most just want their kids to get an education of the basics and not for them to be pounded on by the local bullies.

325 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 8:46:57pm

re: #324 pbird

Three of my children, who were homeschooled are very successful adults now. (One chose to attend public high school.) I certainly don't know any homeschoolers who hate the country or think they are saving their children from satan by homeschooling. Most just want their kids to get an education of the basics and not for them to be pounded on by the local bullies.

In most any other context, the naysayers would applaud parents who are so involved in their children's education.

326 Pythagoras  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 8:53:28pm

I know LOTS of homeschoolers in the DC suburbs. Some are Christians; some are not. Virtually every one of them homeschools so that their kids will learn to read, write and do math better (and Montgomery Co. MD and Fairfax Co. VA have TOP school systems). A majority did send their kids to public High Schools (for sports and social activities).

Does anyone know a reliable source of SAT scores for homeshooled kids? My experience with them in the Odyssey of the Mind and the Destination Imagination programs was that the homeschooled kids were more advanced.

327 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 9:01:50pm

OTOH, I'd want to stay far, far away from this lady:

328 kiwiviv  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 9:07:33pm

re: #326 Pythagoras

See my post at #313 above

329 ladycatnip  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 10:50:37pm

Frank Jr. sounds like the extreme fringe left - he's off the deep end with his rants on homeschooling and Christianity. Are some homeschoolers on the nutty side? Yes. Cloistered? Yes. And some are WEIRD as well. But there's plenty who are not the drooling knuckle-draggers they are made out to be. Not all homeschoolers are Christian. Jews, atheists and other religions are among those who homeschool now, and I believe the fringies are in the minority.

We homeschooled our kids for 6 years and our basic aim was to create critical thinkers with godly moral values. In hindsight, I believe we achieved our goal - our oldest went into college early, then later got an M.S. from USC and is now faculty for a university in another state. Our youngest is finishing college in computer engineering and will be getting his grad degree in physics. There are many outstanding accomplishments of those who have been homeschooled. I doubt, however, that we'll be seeing the accomplishments of the crazed and cloistered homeschoolers; their parents homeschool out of fear and unfortunately pass that on to their kids. There is a strange symmetry to life - in a way, the extreme fringe homeschoolers are the counterpart to some (not all) inner-city parents who have nothing to do with their kids' lives or school and the kids wind up in gangs. Two extremes, but it's the middle that counts.

I grew up reading and respecting the Schaeffers - both Edith and Frank were extremely intellectual and were thought of by mainstream evangelicals as being a bit on the liberal side. Imagine that.

330 kiwiviv  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:18:06pm

re: #329 ladycatnip

Congratulations on your excellent family.

331 Salamantis  Sat, Sep 19, 2009 11:21:28pm

re: #322 The Sanity Inspector

For half a century, liberals have tried to sue Christianity out of public life, and it's still here, with adherents that are stronger, more numerous, angrier, and yes more alienated than before. Libs should start remembering some of that "celebrate our diversity" stuff, and rethink their approach.

People who are accustomed to a position of primacy should be expected to retaliate when a level playing field is legally demanded. It's simple human nature.

That does not mean that they are correct in doing so, or that their own demands for a perpetuation of that primacy should be legally appeased.

332 prof.young  Sun, Sep 20, 2009 11:18:40am

Frank Schaeffer has missed the true ideological foundation of the "anti-public-schooling" vein of homeschoolers. It is not right-wing religious isolationism, but left-wing anti-establishment"ism" that gives stability to this movement. The radicals and beatniks of the 1950s-1970s midwifed the greatest anti-establishment generation of them all. They feed the anti-vaccine, truther, nirther, and protectionist homeschooling crowd more than religion ever could.

Also, all of the founding fathers and great philosophers of the ancient and modern eras were "homeschooled" "by mentors" using the classics method.

333 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 20, 2009 7:00:09pm

re: #33 Shug

Deathers are people who are demanding to see Truman's actual death certificate

Because they suspect he's still alive?


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