Terror Arrest in Massachusetts

US News • Views: 2,357

There’s been another terror-related arrest today, in Sudbury, Massachusetts, where a man was allegedly planning attacks on politicians and a shopping mall.

As with all the recent terror-related arrests, Tarek Mehanna apparently never even got close to carrying out any attacks; the FBI was on to him every step of the way.

BOSTON — A Sudbury, Mass., man was arrested Wednesday on federal terrorism-related charges and accused of planning attacks inside and outside the United States, including an attack that targeted a shopping mall, WCVB-TV in Boston reported.

Tarek Mehanna, 27, was taken into custody at his Sudbury home, according to acting U.S. Attorney General Michael K. Loucks.

Beginning in 2001 and continuing through 2008, Mehanna conspired with Ahmad Abousamra and others to provide material support and resources to terrorists to “kill, kidnap, maim or injure” people, including prominent U.S. politicians, according to a criminal complaint. Loucks said that Mehanna was involved with co-conspirators in a plan that targeted two members of the executive branch and a planned attack on a U.S. shopping mall.

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361 comments
1 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:38:22am

J Edgar’s boys win again! Well done.

2 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:38:44am

Thank You G-Men!

3 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:39:17am

The FBI is wicked smaht.

4 [deleted]  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:39:32am
5 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:40:18am

re: #3 Ben Hur

The FBI is wicked smaht.

The Boston office is probably better at this sort of stuff than dealing with organized crime. Whitey Bulger and all.

6 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:40:19am

As with all the recent terror-related arrests, Tarek Mehanna apparently never even got close to carrying out any attacks; the FBI was on to him every step of the way.

Good job, guys! I still wish we could do what the Israelis used to do from time to time: sneak booby-trapped triggers into the terrorist supply line, so that the terrorists will blow themselves up when they push the button.

7 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:40:34am

re: #4 BetterLuck

RoP.

8 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:40:41am
“The killing of citizens was considered OK by the conspirators because citizens are taxpayers,” Loucks said.

That reminds me of when the Palis claim killing Israeli civilians is OK because they all serve in the army.

9 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:41:00am

Sock puppet, of course.

10 [deleted]  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:41:19am
11 Thinking Mans Republican  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:41:34am

Another non-Hindu?

12 NervyNews  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:41:45am

Debka says:

He was tracked on his travels to Pakistan, Yemen and other places by means of an anklet connected with a separate case.
13 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:41:47am

Those damn Quakers and their terror plots!

14 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:42:37am

re: #13 Mad Al-Jaffee

Those damn Quakers and their terror plots!

Whad are you gonna’ do?

15 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:43:14am

re: #12 GNIDAthe#seCond

Debka says: He was tracked on his travels to Pakistan, Yemen and other places by means of an anklet connected with a separate case.

Further proof that we’ve already bagged all the smart ones.

16 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:43:45am

Nice work.

17 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:45:28am

re: #9 Charles

Sorry, coach.

18 NervyNews  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:46:45am

re: #15 The Sanity Inspector

Further proof that we’ve already bagged all the smart ones.

That’s pretty brazen - you’re a terrorist under surveillance, and you go ahead regardless and plan your terror attack! Right under the nose of the authorities! What’s next?!

19 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:46:53am

His communications and travels were being tracked due to methods instituted after 9/11, including the Patriot Act.

Charles:

I think your claim “Tarek Mehanna apparently never even got close to carrying out any attacks” is stretching things a bit. The terror cell found that they couldn’t get their hands on automatic weapons, but could get their hands on handguns. In other words, they had to scale down the scope of their plot, but the FBI moved in before they could act. That’s to the FBI’s credit - to stop plots before they can actually carry out their deadly intentions.

The FBI got ‘em after engaging in material steps in furtherance of the commission of acts of terrorism.

Mahenna was on the radar since 2007.

That’s on the heels of last month’s arrests of Najibullah Zazi, his father, and an imam who withheld information from investigators for a terror plot in NY/CO.

20 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:48:47am

CAIR to seethe about the arrests in 5, 4, 3…

21 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:48:48am

Geert Wilders booed offstage in Philadelphia


Mr Wilders also attacked the American President Barack Hussein Obama for his approach of “appeasement” toward the Islamic nations of the world.
As the AP reports, Wilders said if the spread of Islam continues unabated in the Western world, “you might at the end of the day lose your Constitution. Wake up, defend your freedom.”
After the movie was shown, and the address was given, Wilders offered a question and answer period but was jeered rudely enough that he was taken away quickly by his security team when the mood of portions of the crowd turned ugly.
The reviews of the students who attended were mixed, with some simply dismissing the idea of being able to hear divergent views and others stating a willingness to listen to all sides of any issue.
Temple University issued a statement saying, “We respect the right of our student organizations to invite people who express a wide variety of views and ideas.”
22 Cygnus  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:50:03am

re: #13 Mad Al-Jaffee

Those damn Quakers and their terror plots!

Minnesota Lutherans!

23 SteveC  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:50:27am

re: #12 GNIDAthe#seCond

Debka says:

This is a special kind of stupid. How do you even think you can slip around undetected if you are wearing an ankle bracelet?!?!?!

24 Buck  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:51:05am

This guy (Tarek Mehanna, aka Tariq Mehanna) has been arrested before (Nov 2008).

Accused of lying to the FBI.

Out on Bail.

25 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:51:33am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Geert Wilders booed offstage in Philadelphia

Too bad these students didn’t understand that they would be setting a good example to Wilders of the kind of freedom of speech we have here in the United States, the kind of freedoms that he wants to deny Muslims.

26 harrylook  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:51:54am

Boy, it’s a good thing we’re no longer at war with these guys. Phew.

///

27 bofhell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:52:00am

Criminey. I grew up in Sudbury.

28 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:52:12am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

correction…
Geert Wilders Dutch lawmaker speaks at Temple University

Youtube Video

Looks like the event went fine.

29 SteveC  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:52:18am

re: #13 Mad Al-Jaffee

Those damn Quakers and their terror plots!

re: #14 ggt

Whad are you gonna’ do?

I’m not going to buy any more Quaker Instant Oatmeal, that’s for sure! I’ll be damned if I am going to finance this crap!

//

30 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:52:18am

re: #23 SteveC

This is a special kind of stupid. How do you even think you can slip around undetected if you are wearing an ankle bracelet?!?!?!

This reminds me of a story I read about a criminal who was running from the police at night in Boston. It was easy to track him…he was wearing sneakers with the blinking lights in the heels.

31 J.S.  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:52:30am

re: #19 lawhawk

i believe it’s also being reported that Tarek Mehanna was targeting two Bush officials (according to AFP).

32 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:53:36am

Lots of haters showed up in the comments for AJ Strata’s post about Robert Stacy McCain. Apparently, I’m “filled with irrational hatred,” I’ve “gone off the deep end,” I’ve “jumped the shark,” I’m “weapons-grade crazy,” and I’m just as bad as RSM.

33 CommonCents  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:53:42am

re: #21 Killgore Trout

Geert Wilders booed offstage in Philadelphia

Wouldn’t it have been better to ask him pointed questions that exposed his racism and hypocrisy rather than just boo and jeer?

34 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:54:10am

re: #30 NJDhockeyfan

This reminds me of a story I read about a criminal who was running from the police at night in Boston. It was easy to track him…he was wearing sneakers with the blinking lights in the heels.

My favorite has always been the criminal who tried to rob the gun shop—during business hours.

35 Cygnus  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:54:21am

re: #29 SteveC

I’m not going to buy any more Quaker Instant Oatmeal, that’s for sure! I’ll be damned if I am going to finance this crap!

//

It was the Minnesota Lutherans, I tell ya. Boycott Lutefisk!

36 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:54:35am

re: #32 Charles

Lots of haters showed up in the comments for AJ Strata’s post about Robert Stacy McCain. Apparently, I’m “filled with irrational hatred,” I’ve “gone off the deep end,” I’ve “jumped the shark,” I’m “weapons-grade crazy,” and I’m just as bad as RSM.

So why don’t they like you, then?

37 fizzlogic  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:54:41am

OT: Dawkins vs. Hewitt

Hewitt represents the Right perfectly.

38 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:55:10am

re: #33 CommonCents

See #28. The first article I linked to was bogus.

39 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:55:20am

re: #33 CommonCents

Wouldn’t it have been better to ask him pointed questions that exposed his racism and hypocrisy rather than just boo and jeer?

Students. I wish I could remember the speaker …Hannity and Colmes had two of the students on the show and BOTH reamed the students for their behavior towards the speaker.

40 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:56:03am

re: #35 Cygnus

It was the Minnesota Lutherans, I tell ya. Boycott Lutefisk!

I think you’ve missed the source. It’s the Lutefisk that is causing the Minnesota Lutherans to behave so.

Ban Lutefisk —save these people!

/

41 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:56:15am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

correction…
Geert Wilders Dutch lawmaker speaks at Temple University

Looks like the event went fine.

His hair is less than fabulous.

42 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:56:38am

re: #37 trendsurfer

OT: Dawkins vs. Hewitt

Hewitt represents the Right perfectly.

He also demonstrates why people need to sty in their own damned lanes. Evolutionary science is something about which he knows as little as, say, Dawkins does on the finer points of theology.

Go to Dawkins for your science, go to Hewett for whatever it is that one goes to him for.

43 Spider Mensch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:00am

re: #32 Charles

Lots of haters showed up in the comments for AJ Strata’s post about Robert Stacy McCain. Apparently, I’m “filled with irrational hatred,” I’ve “gone off the deep end,” I’ve “jumped the shark,” I’m “weapons-grade crazy,” and I’m just as bad as RSM.

oh all the real lizards know that Charles, we just come here for the view and those tasty complimentary crickets you leave out to munch on :)

44 SteveC  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:04am

re: #34 ggt

My favorite has always been the criminal who tried to rob the gun shop—during business hours.

Or the guy who tried to rob the bank nearest the police station - at lunch on payday.

40 irate armed customers with badges ordering him to get on the floor. That’s usually the sign of an official, 100% BAD DECISION.

45 StillAMarine  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:07am

re: #32 Charles

If people like those hate you, Charles, you are doing something right.

46 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:16am

re: #32 Charles

Lots of haters showed up in the comments for AJ Strata’s post about Robert Stacy McCain. Apparently, I’m “filled with irrational hatred,” I’ve “gone off the deep end,” I’ve “jumped the shark,” I’m “weapons-grade crazy,” and I’m just as bad as RSM.

Of course. Anyone who even dares to support you right now gets trashed. I’d wager good money that a fair number of those trashing both you and AJ Strata in there are Deucers. It’s their MO.

47 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:23am

re: #32 Charles

AJ points out facts and problems with RSM; you once again highlight RSM’s racism (which remains irrefutable and RSM himself has not denied making any of those statements), but you’re the one off the rails? Sheesh.

All too many people are trying to defend the indefensible - and RS McCain is indefensible. He’s a racist and an unrepentant one at that seeing how he doesn’t deny making the statements or recants his belief in them. People supporting him really need to get a clue on that. Do they really want to support a racist?

I don’t.

48 Cygnus  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:26am

re: #40 ggt

I think you’ve missed the source. It’s the Lutefisk that is causing the Minnesota Lutherans to behave so.

Ban Lutefisk —save these people!

/

That reminds of the bumper sticker I occasionally see around Seattle: Legalize Lutefisk!

49 SteveC  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:32am

re: #35 Cygnus

It was the Minnesota Lutherans, I tell ya. Boycott Lutefisk!

That is not going to be a problem!

50 RogueOne  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:36am

re: #25 Walter L. Newton

Or maybe the kind of rights they want to deny us?
blogs.usatoday.com

51 Buck  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:36am

Tariq Mehanna is still accused of Lying to the FBI about a terrorism matter from 2006!

How does a guy on Bail, accused of lying to the FBI do all this travelling?

52 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:42am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

See #28. The first article I linked to was bogus.

My sentiment still stands in my re: #25 Walter L. Newton.

I would hope that when Wilders is speaking in this country, that he is afforded the freedom to speak, unlike the freedoms he would like to deny Muslims.

Hopefully we are better than him and his (my favorite word) ILK.

53 subsailor68  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:57:43am

re: #35 Cygnus

It was the Minnesota Lutherans, I tell ya. Boycott Lutefisk!

Authorities said that Mohammad Sven Al Ullman was apprehended at the Nygren Lutefisk processing plant. When asked why he was targeting the building, Al Ullman said, “isn’t Lutefisk that German airline?”

54 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:58:10am

re: #41 wrenchwench

His hair is less than fabulous.

Was it better than Blagojovich’s?

(teehee, I tried to spell check and it came up with “Blowfish” for Blago-hair)

55 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:58:28am

re: #41 wrenchwench

His hair is less than fabulous.

It looks like he stuck his finger in an eletrical outlet.

56 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:58:35am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

See #28. The first article I linked to was bogus.

You can’t trust “Digital Journal.” It looks like a news site, but it’s really unedited spew from anyone who signs up. Not credible at all.

57 NervyNews  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:58:54am

Doesn’t it seem like there are way more terror busts, plots foiled this year than previous years? Am I mistaken? It seems like these days some new terror plot is uncovered every day.

58 Ojoe  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:59:11am

re: #15 The Sanity Inspector

More smart ones may self-radicalize however.

59 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:59:36am

re: #51 Buck

He was indicted on the matter earlier this year; these charges are in addition to those. At the time, he apparently lied about the whereabouts of another jihadi who took off for Somalia. He claimed that he didn’t know where he was, but the FBI found calls between the two.

60 SteveC  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:59:42am

re: #53 subsailor68

Authorities said that Mohammad Sven Al Ullman was apprehended at the Nygren Lutefisk processing plant. When asked why he was targeting the building, Al Ullman said, “isn’t Lutefisk that German airline?”

YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG! Carry on!

61 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:59:44am

re: #50 RogueOne

Or maybe the kind of rights they want to deny us?
[Link: blogs.usatoday.com…]

Another bogus story.

62 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:59:52am

OT: YouTube’s copyright cops have been playing whack-a-mole with videos of this performance for years, but it keeps getting uploaded again anyway. It’s amazing, if you enjoy guitar playing.

Youtube Video
63 SteveC  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:00:13am

re: #55 Honorary Yooper

It looks like he stuck his finger in an eletrical outlet.

Don King?

64 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:00:26am

re: #50 RogueOne

Or maybe the kind of rights they want to deny us?
[Link: blogs.usatoday.com…]

Don’t matter. You’re argument is worthless. So, someone wants to deny you the freedom of certain speech and you equate that with not letting Wilders speak?

65 RogueOne  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:01:00am

re: #61 Charles

Right now it’s just a helpful suggestion but I’m not counting on it staying that way.

66 J.S.  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:01:19am

re: #56 Charles

hmmm — another website with a misleading name — (I wouldn’t have known it was a bogus site, either)…

67 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:01:29am

New Jersey Security Guard Allegedly Threatened Obama

A private security guard at Newark Liberty International Airport has been arrested Wednesday on charges of threatening President Barack Obama.

Port Authority spokesman John Kelly says John Breck allowed police to search his Linden home and officers found 43 firearms.

U.S. Secret Service spokesman Malcolm Wiley says the 55-year-old denied making any threats.

68 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:01:53am

re: #37 trendsurfer

OT: Dawkins vs. Hewitt

Hewitt represents the Right perfectly.

Hugh Hewitt is an evangelist, and a pretty hardcore creationist, of course. He vascillates back and forth between pure creationism and “intelligent design” creationism in that interview.

69 RogueOne  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:02:27am

re: #64 Walter L. Newton

I never said Wildes shouldn’t be allowed to speak, nor have I said people don’t have the right to practice their religion. I’m just pointing out that freedom of speech is a two way street.

70 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:03:31am

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

New Jersey Security Guard Allegedly Threatened Obama

Why is the number of firearms he had newsworthy? What does it prove?

71 Cygnus  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:03:41am

re: #53 subsailor68

Authorities said that Mohammad Sven Al Ullman was apprehended at the Nygren Lutefisk processing plant. When asked why he was targeting the building, Al Ullman said, “isn’t Lutefisk that German airline?”

The people living downwind were praying that he would blow it up.

72 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:04:22am

re: #61 Charles

Turley’s op-ed is bogus? Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on that. The Administration is apparently willing to go along with a UN effort to allow blasphemy laws around the world; laws that would prohibit criticism of religious views.

While it wouldn’t affect the US (where Congress shall make no law infringing the right to free speech), it would most certainly affect Islamic regimes, which would be all too willing to engage in blasphemy laws that could include death sentences, and other regimes that are not constrained by law providing free speech to its citizens.

73 shutdown  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:05:34am

re: #32 Charles

Lots of haters showed up in the comments for AJ Strata’s post about Robert Stacy McCain. Apparently, I’m “filled with irrational hatred,” I’ve “gone off the deep end,” I’ve “jumped the shark,” I’m “weapons-grade crazy,” and I’m just as bad as RSM.

Wow. How do you even look in the mirror to shave in the morning?

/sarc

74 Political Atheist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:06:42am

re: #62 The Sanity Inspector

Thanks I just woke up the office with that one on my editing station. (Great speakers)

75 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:06:58am

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

It looks like the earlier report claiming that a former NJ State trooper was involved in making threats against Obama were wrong; they were apparently referring to the PANY/NJ contract security worker.

76 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:07:03am

re: #56 Charles

You can’t trust “Digital Journal.” It looks like a news site, but it’s really unedited spew from anyone who signs up. Not credible at all.

Ah, thanks. I didn’t know that.

77 SteveC  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:07:28am

Another Criminal Mastermind at work:

Authorities say a Missouri inmate is facing a federal charge of threatening to kill President Barack Obama after writing a threatening letter from prison.

Wonder if the Secret Service had difficulty finding him?

78 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:09:12am

re: #47 lawhawk

I’ve noticed that even AJ is getting flouncers. Some nut called WWS gave a long good bye flounce at the top of the comments.

But, he (and indirectly us) is getting support. Someone called sjreidhead is supporting him. He has a site as well, The Pink Flamingo. The Pink Flamingo also supports us regarding RSM,
The War for the Conservative Soul Has Begun.

79 drcordell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:09:36am

Damn that Obama and his effective law-enforcement based approach to fighting the war on terror!

80 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:10:19am

re: #69 RogueOne

I never said Wildes shouldn’t be allowed to speak, nor have I said people don’t have the right to practice their religion. I’m just pointing out that freedom of speech is a two way street.

No, it’s a one way street.

81 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:10:21am

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

Port Authority spokesman John Kelly says John Breck allowed police to search his Linden home and officers found 43 firearms.

I’m guessing he’s not RoP.

82 Political Atheist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:10:35am

The disturbing part of the trend is the soft target thing. Think India hotel attack=US shopping mall attack.

83 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:11:22am

re: #78 Honorary Yooper

AJ is one of the more principled bloggers out there, and I’m familiar with the Pink Flamingo as well. Good reads.

84 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:11:46am

re: #82 Rightwingconspirator

The disturbing part of the trend is the soft target thing. Think India hotel attack=US shopping mall attack.

Very true. We’ve caught a few recently, but are there ones we’ve missed, led by people just smart enough not to get caught? It’s a question I hope not to see an answer for.

85 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:12:21am

re: #32 Charles

Lots of haters showed up in the comments for AJ Strata’s post about Robert Stacy McCain. Apparently, I’m “filled with irrational hatred,” I’ve “gone off the deep end,” I’ve “jumped the shark,” I’m “weapons-grade crazy,” and I’m just as bad as RSM.

One of those commenters, who wrote a Fjordy-length statement on slavery, is still registered here. The ever-popular Crosspatch ends with this:

Johnson has been going off on McCain for quite a long time and he is way off base. I don’t read his site anymore. I don’t see McCain as a racist. I believe he is trying to relate what things were like AT THAT TIME.
86 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:12:50am

re: #82 Rightwingconspirator

The disturbing part of the trend is the soft target thing. Think India hotel attack=US shopping mall attack.

Agreed.

87 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:12:52am

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Hmm, there’s a priest by that name in NY. About the right age.

88 Merryweather  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:13:15am

re: #70 ggt

It’s relevant because what the hell does an individual need 43 frickin’ firearms for? That alone suggests he’s one of the paranoid Beckites who think Obama’s going to overturn the 2nd Amendment and is stocking up for the revolution. The threat to Obama confirms it.

89 Sharmuta  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:14:37am

re: #78 Honorary Yooper

I’ve noticed that even AJ is getting flouncers. Some nut called WWS gave a long good bye flounce at the top of the comments.

But, he (and indirectly us) is getting support. Someone called sjreidhead is supporting him. He has a site as well, The Pink Flamingo. The Pink Flamingo also supports us regarding RSM,
The War for the Conservative Soul Has Begun.

I found the Pink Flamingo last month, and I like a lot of what that lady’s doing. She really needs to look into her blog roll, though.

90 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:14:47am

re: #72 lawhawk

Turley’s op-ed is bogus? Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on that. The Administration is apparently willing to go along with a UN effort to allow blasphemy laws around the world; laws that would prohibit criticism of religious views.

I looked into this story when people started emailing it to me. What’s actually happening is that the Obama administration made some vaguely positive comments about “aligning” with Egypt on a vastly watered down version of the original OIC proposal. Nothing has been signed and no agreements have actually been made.

Turley’s article is long on anecdotes about “blasphemy,” but contains almost no real information about the actual UN resolution under discussion, or what the Obama administration actually said about it. It’s just more fear mongering for the right wing base, in my opinion.

91 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:15:56am

re: #88 Merryweather

It’s relevant because what the hell does an individual need 43 frickin’ firearms for? That alone suggests he’s one of the paranoid Beckites who think Obama’s going to overturn the 2nd Amendment and is stocking up for the revolution. The threat to Obama confirms it.

Alternately, he could be a nutter who’s been stocking up for years in preparation for the NWO and George Herbert Walker Bush was gonna impose.

43 firearms seems a bit much for New Jersey, but would represent a good-sized collection elsewhere.

All evidence points, though, to arms-acquisitions in support of a paranoid pathology with political dimensions.

92 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:15:58am

re: #88 Merryweather

It’s relevant because what the hell does an individual need 43 frickin’ firearms for? That alone suggests he’s one of the paranoid Beckites who think Obama’s going to overturn the 2nd Amendment and is stocking up for the revolution. The threat to Obama confirms it.

The threat to Obama proves it, not the number of firearms. Collectors and gun-nuts LOVE guns. 99.9% of those LEGAL firearms have never and will never be pointed at a human being.

Now, if they had reported that any of those guns were NOT LEGAL. That would have proven criminality.

93 Political Atheist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:19:14am

re: #70 ggt

Its worth pointing out he denies the charge and he allowed the search, knowing what he had inside.

94 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:20:12am

re: #93 Rightwingconspirator

Its worth pointing out he denies the charge and he allowed the search, knowing what he had inside.

True, hadn’t thought of that. Might be nothing to this at all, but one never knows.

95 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:20:13am

Man, Sudbury? That’s the last place I’d expect in Massachusetts to have an honest-to-goodness terrarist living in it.

If they ever find one in Marlborough, I probably WON’T know them. Generation Jihad is a bit younger than my crowd. I don’t even recognize the names in the Metrowest Daily News police logs anymore.

/

96 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:20:46am

re: #93 Rightwingconspirator

Its worth pointing out he denies the charge and he allowed the search, knowing what he had inside.

Yes, so we can assume those guns were legal?

Noting the number of firearms is just a way the MSM raises eyebrows.

97 Merryweather  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:22:05am

re: #91 Guanxi88

Not being a gun owner myself, I can’t say I have any idea what constitutes a good size collection. On instinct, 43 guns just seems to me to be excessive.

98 Political Atheist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:22:11am

re: #94 Guanxi88

Its a wait and see moment. If he’s guilty I’ll be one to applaud the arrest & conviction. Gun collectors get enough hostile attention already. We have to keep our own house clean or else.

99 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:23:39am

Republican fail…
Vitter dodges question about interracial marriage in Louisiana.


Although both Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal (R) and Sen. Mary Landrieu (D) have publicly condemned Justice of the Peace Keith Bardwell for refusing to issue marriage licenses to interracial couples, Sen. David Vitter (R) has stayed noticeably silent. (ThinkProgress contacted his office, but we did not receive a response.) Blogger-activist Mike Stark caught up with Vitter and asked him about his position.
Youtube Video
100 bofhell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:23:52am

re: #95 Pawn of the Oppressor

Man, Sudbury? That’s the last place I’d expect in Massachusetts to have an honest-to-goodness terrarist living in it.

If they ever find one in Marlborough, I probably WON’T know them. Generation Jihad is a bit younger than my crowd. I don’t even recognize the names in the Metrowest Daily News police logs anymore.

/

This is not the Sudbury of my youth.

101 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:25:05am

re: #97 Merryweather

Not being a gun owner myself, I can’t say I have any idea what constitutes a good size collection. On instinct, 43 guns just seems to me to be excessive.

Again, it’s a lot of firearms, no denying that. If legally held, no problems. If part of a collection of historical or other interest, again, no problem (I’ve got a collection of WWII firearms arms that might raise eyebrows in Boston, but would be perfectly unobjectionable in most other places and contexts).

102 Political Atheist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:25:43am

re: #97 Merryweather

Assuming innocence, (for now) 43 guns are no more dangerous than Jay Lenos car collection.

103 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:25:57am

re: #97 Merryweather

Not being a gun owner myself, I can’t say I have any idea what constitutes a good size collection. On instinct, 43 guns just seems to me to be excessive.

Well, if you’ve inherited guns that have value, but you will probably never fire or if you are a competition shooter —it may or may not be. A lot of enthusiasts have lots of guns, they want one of every kind to tinker with—look at, admire, clean etc.

It depends on how many firearm related activities one is involved in. Trap, Skeet, Target, Hunting—all the different types of game. They all have their own type of gun. And we haven’t even begun to talk about basic defense.

A gun is a tool.

104 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:26:04am

re: #90 Charles

Why should the Administration go along with even a watered down version of the bill? It doesn’t improve the stature of the US overseas, and it gives comfort to those who are all too willing to engage in restriction on speech a green light to further restrict speech - and to impose serious penalties for blasphemy. To me, it’s a dangerous slippery slope to offer even the slightest bit of support to such restrictions on free speech.

105 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:26:09am

re: #61 Charles

Background on the author of that USA today piece from his Wiki, he was also involved in Schiavo:

Some of Turley’s most notable non-academic work is his representation of the Area 51 workers at a secret air base in Nevada; the nuclear couriers at Oak Ridge, Tennessee; the Rocky Flats grand jury in Colorado; Dr. Eric Foretich, the husband in the famous Elizabeth Morgan custody controversy.[3] He challenged Black Bag Operations authorized under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) in espionage cases against former CIA officer Harold Nicholson; and four former United States Attorneys General during the Clinton impeachment litigation. He has also represented defendants in terrorism cases including Dr. Ali Al-Timimi (the alleged head of the Virginia Jihad/Paintball conspiracy) and Dr. Sami Al-Arian (in a criminal contempt case)

106 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:27:02am

re: #105 Thanos

Background on the author of that USA today piece from his Wiki, he was also involved in Schiavo:

Guy seems to be all over the map.

107 Merryweather  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:27:07am

re: #93 Rightwingconspirator

Good point. I probably shouldn’t jump to conclusions, but in the current climate who knows.

108 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:27:08am

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Republican fail…
Vitter dodges question about interracial marriage in Louisiana.

[Video]

Wow. The only possible explanation for dodging a question like that is that Vitter doesn’t want to alienate the racist part of his constituency.

109 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:28:55am

re: #108 Charles

Yeah, This is such a no-brainer. He’s going out of his way for a week to not issue a statement on the case.

110 Pawn of the Oppressor  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:29:22am

re: #97 Merryweather

Not being a gun owner myself, I can’t say I have any idea what constitutes a good size collection. On instinct, 43 guns just seems to me to be excessive.

It’s like any other mechanical hobby, except your toys go “bang” at the range instead of making noise out on the road. Some people own “just one”, many have five or ten, and then others collect, or just accumulate them as their lives go on. There are guys on vintage gun forums who own two or three dozen of a single make or model, and take photos to share.

The guy is a security guard, so I’m guessing long hours, lack of other ways to spend time, and familiarity with guns as part of his job description, explains most of it. On the other hand, forty-three? In New Jersey? They probably have him on a watch list already, just for owning more than one. I can’t think of anything that’s legal in NJ that I’d want 43 of.

111 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:31:16am

re: #58 Ojoe

More smart ones may self-radicalize however.

Not if they know what’s good for them. Which is to say, not if they’re really smart! ;)

112 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:31:36am

re: #106 Guanxi88

Guy seems to be all over the map.

Here’s his blog, he seems to be pretty respected on legal theory.

jonathanturley.org

113 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:31:48am

re: #95 Pawn of the Oppressor

Man, Sudbury? That’s the last place I’d expect in Massachusetts to have an honest-to-goodness terrarist living in it.

If they ever find one in Marlborough, I probably WON’T know them. Generation Jihad is a bit younger than my crowd. I don’t even recognize the names in the Metrowest Daily News police logs anymore.

/

Brockton is a much more likely venue for troubled yoots

114 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:33:19am

Turley seems left oriented, from his second article he doesn’t like Netanyahu or Bush.

115 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:33:39am

Have a great afternoon all!

116 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:35:01am

I worry less about the stupid talkative jihadists than I do the silent successful ones.

But way to go G-men! Keepin’ teh crazy off teh streetz.

117 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:35:13am

re: #112 Thanos

Here’s his blog, he seems to be pretty respected on legal theory.

[Link: jonathanturley.org…]

It’s what I mean - hard to pin down what’s going on here. On the face of it, anytime anyone starts talking about UN treaties to do X, Y, or Z, I reassure myself with the certain knowledge that most of this pernicious crap won’t get signed by us, and, if it does, won’t pass Senate muster.

If the guy were an unambiguous Bircher, it’d be easier to classify what was going on, but, no, he’s all over the place.

118 Merryweather  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:35:32am

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Honest Abe must be getting a hell of a workout in his grave these days. That is just disgusting.

119 J.S.  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:35:53am

re: #105 Thanos

So what? He’s defending his clients…that’s his job, isn’t it?

120 RogueOne  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:36:09am

re: #104 lawhawk

I think that is exactly right, especially considering the resolution (which passed 85-50) canada.com …specifically mentions “the press”. This resolution, although non-binding, will be used as justification to criminalize criticism in islamic states. We shouldn’t be a party to helping other nations limit freedom of speech.

121 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:36:17am

re: #105 Thanos

His background is US constitutional law and is well known in that regard. Some, including Daily Kos, were touting Turley for the Supreme Court. He’s also a strong proponent on 1st Amendment grounds.

122 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:36:17am

re: #108 Charles

Wow. The only possible explanation for dodging a question like that is that Vitter doesn’t want to alienate the racist part of his constituency.

vitter has very little credibility on ANY questions on the sanctity of marriage … remember?

cbsnews.com

123 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:36:36am

re: #117 Guanxi88

You can say that about most lawyers, from his blog you can see he’s left of center.

124 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:37:27am

re: #123 Thanos

Not just left of center, but far left of center.

125 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:37:59am

re: #119 J.S.

So what? He’s defending his clients…that’s his job, isn’t it?

I’m just giving background. What’s your beef? You don’t like to know where views are coming from?

126 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:38:09am

re: #117 Guanxi88 Given how effective the UN is at enforcing its resolutions I don’t worry that the US will be losing much sovereignty soon, no matter what we agree to.

Besides if they give us any real trouble their baby blue tanks are pretty easy to pick off in the dark. //

127 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:38:25am

Wait, what? You mean we actually caught people, again, and prevented more terrorism without using torture “enhanced interrogation” on anyone? That isn’t possible, just ask Dick and Liz Cheny…

/

128 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:38:49am

re: #124 lawhawk

Not just left of center, but far left of center.

I would say that’s probably true if the KOSlings support him.

129 drcordell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:40:14am

re: #124 lawhawk

Not just left of center, but far left of center.

Why must everyone be pigeon-holed into some sort of partisan mold? You seem to be summarily dismissing everything this man has written, or will write in the future, all by labeling him “left”.

130 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:40:24am

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Republican fail…
Vitter dodges question about interracial marriage in Louisiana.

[Video]

That’s really not a hard question to answer, the fact that he wouldn’t is revealing.

131 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:41:17am

re: #129 drcordell

Why must everyone be pigeon-holed into some sort of partisan mold? You seem to be summarily dismissing everything this man has written, or will write in the future, all by labeling him “left”.

Why not?

132 J.S.  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:41:18am

re: #125 Thanos

Please, Thanos. Because a lawyer defends a client, this does not mean that suddenly “Those are his own personal beliefs on the matter”. You can defend an alleged terrorist without, necessarily, believing that terrorism is morally/legally/ethically appropriate behavior or that the lawyer is, himself, sympathetic with terrorists…(the latter may or may not be the case. Most professional defense attorneys don’t necessarily share the views of their rapist, murderous, etc., clients, etc.)

133 Merryweather  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:42:19am

re: #108 Charles

But Louisiana elected a Republican governor of Indian descent, so why Vitter would think he needs to pander to racists to keep his seat is beyond me.

134 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:42:29am

re: #129 drcordell

Who’s dismissing? We all have bias, and it helps us to discern truth if we know the bias of the person presenting something. Even those who are wingnuts and moonbats occasionally say things that are true.

135 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:43:09am

re: #129 drcordell

Why must everyone be pigeon-holed into some sort of partisan mold? You seem to be summarily dismissing everything this man has written, or will write in the future, all by labeling him “left”.

So, what does this look like, a libertarian… ?

arabisto.com

136 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:43:45am

re: #132 J.S.

I’m saying he’s left from his blog, not from which cases he took. However, if you were a lawyer would you take Sami Al Arian as a client since you asked?

137 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:44:00am

re: #130 Thanos

TPM, Thinkprogress, etc have all been contacting his office for about a week. He refuses to make a statement. I just checked his webpage, nothing.

138 drcordell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:44:43am

re: #131 Walter L. Newton

Why not?

Because simply labeling someone as “right” or “left” removes all nuance and subtlety from any debate. It boils complicated issues worth of serious debate down to a stupid cable news show “shouting heads” panel.

139 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:46:25am

I was interested to note because this kind of concern over anti-blasphemy “laws” generally correlates with rightist anti-jihadism of the VB variety. This fellow’s a bit different.

140 Merryweather  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:46:26am

Re. the terror arrests, that’s another big hole shot in Dick Cheney’s claim that Obama’s made us less safe from terrorist attacks. Our security forces seem to be doing an A-OK job so far.

141 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:46:27am

re: #138 drcordell

Because simply labeling someone as “right” or “left” removes all nuance and subtlety from any debate. It boils complicated issues worth of serious debate down to a stupid cable news show “shouting heads” panel.

Ah, but it adds truth to that debate. I want to know where someone sits before he tells me where he stands. And Mr. Turley has not problem with that label, he’s proud of it. Read some of his writings.

You seem to know more about Mr. Turley than Mr. Turley knows about himself.

142 wiffersnapper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:47:20am

Another flawless victory by the FBI. Thank you, gentlemen!

143 J.S.  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:48:35am

re: #136 Thanos

Well what I would or wouldn’t do is hypothetical…I don’t know…I suspect it would be “yes.” (Alan Dershowitz, btw, wrote about defending certain extraordinarily evil individuals…he’d wake up at night with nightmares and sweating at the thought, but ultimately, even the worse of the worst offenders must be given a defense…that’s the way the criminal/judicial system works…and not through lynch mobs…)

144 drcordell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:49:14am

re: #135 Walter L. Newton

So, what does this look like, a libertarian… ?

[Link: www.arabisto.com…]

Seems to me like he’s a lawyer who is giving his legal opinion, free of partisan constraints. If he believes legally that war crimes were committed under Bush/Cheney, then he also has to believe that Obama is guilty if he allows the crimes to be covered up. That hardly makes him crazy, it means that he doesn’t allow his political views to color his legal views.

145 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:51:22am

For those of you who might miss our former “friends” who have flounced: They are now praising Pat Buchanan at the stalker blog. We should have pushed them out long ago.

146 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:51:30am

re: #143 J.S.

Well what I would or wouldn’t do is hypothetical…I don’t know…I suspect it would be “yes.” (Alan Dershowitz, btw, wrote about defending certain extraordinarily evil individuals…he’d wake up at night with nightmares and sweating at the thought, but ultimately, even the worse of the worst offenders must be given a defense…that’s the way the criminal/judicial system works…and not through lynch mobs…)

Dersh used the legal system as a shield for all. I respect him for that.

It’s what distinguished him from, say Kunstler, who sought to use the legal system as a way of remaking society along the lines proposed by certain of his clients.

147 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:52:25am

re: #143 J.S.

Well what I would or wouldn’t do is hypothetical…I don’t know…I suspect it would be “yes.” (Alan Dershowitz, btw, wrote about defending certain extraordinarily evil individuals…he’d wake up at night with nightmares and sweating at the thought, but ultimately, even the worse of the worst offenders must be given a defense…that’s the way the criminal/judicial system works…and not through lynch mobs…)

Right, and I don’t consider you a “far left” person, but if you had a blog where you were bashing Netanyahu and Bush, I might.

148 StillAMarine  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:53:15am

Absurdity of the day here:
“Taliban In Statement on Security Council’s Extension of Foreign Troops’ Mandate in Afghanistan: “The Oppressed People of the World Do Not Trust the United Nations Any More …” They accuse the UN of being an instrument of — get this — the United States!
Talk about clued out, but what do you expect of a bunch of barbarian thugs hiding out in caves and murdering innocents.

149 bofhell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:55:12am

re: #132 J.S.

Please, Thanos. Because a lawyer defends a client, this does not mean that suddenly “Those are his own personal beliefs on the matter”. You can defend an alleged terrorist without, necessarily, believing that terrorism is morally/legally/ethically appropriate behavior or that the lawyer is, himself, sympathetic with terrorists…(the latter may or may not be the case. Most professional defense attorneys don’t necessarily share the views of their rapist, murderous, etc., clients, etc.)

No less a person than John Adams defended the eight British soldiers accused of murdering colonists at the so-called “Boston Massacre”.

150 drcordell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:55:20am

re: #141 Walter L. Newton

Ah, but it adds truth to that debate. I want to know where someone sits before he tells me where he stands. And Mr. Turley has not problem with that label, he’s proud of it. Read some of his writings.

You seem to know more about Mr. Turley than Mr. Turley knows about himself.

No, I’m not claiming to know more about Turley than he knows about himself. I’m just saying that reflexively labeling someone “right” or “left” and acting like it encompasses all of their views is stupid. It serves no purpose other than to foster ad-hominem attacks.

151 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:55:49am

re: #147 Thanos

Considering numbers like this pollingreport.com
there is nothing far left about bashing Bush. It’s mainstream. It’s center.

152 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:57:24am

re: #129 drcordell

Why must everyone be pigeon-holed into some sort of partisan mold? You seem to be summarily dismissing everything this man has written, or will write in the future, all by labeling him “left”.

Not at all, if you bothered to read upstream (where I wrote: “He’s also a strong proponent on 1st Amendment grounds” which is one area I hold near and dear).

As for the pigeon holing, it’s an accurate assessment of his political leanings. Since the US operates on a left-right continuum, it is useful to show that his views are at the far side of the continuum. His isn’t moderate.

153 McSpiff  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:57:43am

For those interested in topics such as legal defense for terrorists id highly recommend L’avocat de la terreur. imdb.com

Jacques Vergès is certainly an interesting man, even if you find yourself disagreeing with him 100% of the time(and you will). It’s also interesting to see how he used the Western legal system against itself. It certainly gave me plenty to think about.

154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 10:59:27am

re: #127 ausador

Red is positive. Black is negative.

Just sayin’.

155 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:00:38am

re: #150 drcordell

No, I’m not claiming to know more about Turley than he knows about himself. I’m just saying that reflexively labeling someone “right” or “left” and acting like it encompasses all of their views is stupid. It serves no purpose other than to foster ad-hominem attacks.

No, it fosters accepting the truth. And there you go using a weasel word that has nothing to do with the actual conversation. I read the comments up thread, and no one was “reflexively” labeling Turley as far left.

It’s evident by the comments and the links supplied, that Turley was labeled far left by people that had a complete understanding of Turley and the positions he takes.

Nothing “reflexively” about it. That was hyperbole in your attempt to label the commenters above as “knee jerk.” Stop labeling people, it’s more nuanced, ya know?

156 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:02:39am

Listening to Patty Griffin makes me happy. Seeing the FBI catch terrorists before they can terroristize makes me happy. So I’m double happy right now.

157 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:03:08am

OT - another phony, unfounded, knee-jerk, reflexively put together poll… nothing to see here…

“Obama’s poll numbers show wear and tear”

cnn.com

158 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:04:53am

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

OT - another phony, unfounded, knee-jerk, reflexively put together poll… nothing to see here…

“Obama’s poll numbers show wear and tear”

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

I love this quote…

“A popular president who is less popular on the issues — Obama could use his personal popularity to rally support for his less popular agenda.”

Is this a news article, or is CNN acting as an advisor to Obama?

159 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:06:55am

re: #90 Charles

Thank you for the fact checking!

160 sattv4u2  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:07:10am

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

I love this quote…

“A popular president who is less popular on the issues — Obama could use his personal popularity to rally support for his less popular agenda.”

Is this a news article, or is CNN acting as an advisor cheerleader to Obama?

Rah Rah Ree,,, kick them in the knee

Rah Rah Rass,,, kick them in the ,,, other knee!
/

161 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:07:19am

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

A “unique fix ‘er upper opportunity”?

162 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:07:49am

re: #161 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A “unique fix ‘er upper opportunity”?

A teachable moment.

163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:08:19am

re: #160 sattv4u2

Rah Rah Ree,,, kick them in the knee

Rah Rah Rass,,, kick them in the ,,, other knee!
/

Ratshit! Batshit! Dirty old Tw*t!
69 Assholes tied in a knot!
Hurray! Lizard shit! F*ck!
-George Carlin

164 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:09:06am

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

OT - another phony, unfounded, knee-jerk, reflexively put together poll… nothing to see here…

“Obama’s poll numbers show wear and tear”

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

And don’t forget today’s Rasmussen daily Presidential Tracking Poll.

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Wednesday shows that 27% of the nation’s voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Forty percent (40%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -13. That’s just a point above the lowest level ever recorded for this President. It’s also the sixth straight day in negative double digits, matching the longest such streak (see trends).
165 Political Atheist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:10:20am

re: #164 NJDhockeyfan

Attacks on Rasmussen in 4…3..2..

166 ryannon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:10:26am

re: #102 Rightwingconspirator

Assuming innocence, (for now) 43 guns are no more dangerous than Jay Lenos car collection.

Perhaps less dangerous in terms of greenhouse gases and the depletion of oil reserves. But what an incredible machine!

Youtube Video
167 charles_martel  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:10:47am

re: #15 The Sanity Inspector

Further proof that we’ve already bagged all the smart ones.

Well, actually, no. We will always bag the dumb ones. I’m sure there are plenty of smart ones out there ready to do damage. Unfortunately.

168 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:11:41am

re: #167 charles_martel

Find them. Erase them.

169 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:11:44am

re: #164 NJDhockeyfan

Rasmussen is nothing more than the polling branch of the Republican party, you know that
/

170 Political Atheist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:12:17am

re: #166 ryannon

Tanks a lot!

171 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:12:26am

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

If you look at composite graphs from various polling agencies they are almost always one of the more skewed polling agencies.

172 drcordell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:13:36am

re: #155 Walter L. Newton

No, it fosters accepting the truth. And there you go using a weasel word that has nothing to do with the actual conversation. I read the comments up thread, and no one was “reflexively” labeling Turley as far left.

It’s evident by the comments and the links supplied, that Turley was labeled far left by people that had a complete understanding of Turley and the positions he takes.

Nothing “reflexively” about it. That was hyperbole in your attempt to label the commenters above as “knee jerk.” Stop labeling people, it’s more nuanced, ya know?

Exactly my point Walter. There was nuanced discussion of Turley in the above thread, and then there were simply comments debating whether he should be labeled “left” or “far-left.” I’m saying debating the latter is stupid. Just as stupid as this debate we’re having right now.

My point is, “right” and “left” are stupid and pointless in this day and age. Where would you label Charles for example? He might label himself “right” but the nuts at ace of spades and hotair probably call him a “leftist.” The point is, “left” and “right” don’t mean jack shit anymore. If I’m pro-healthcare reform, anti-union, pro-Afghanistan war, pro-choice and pro second amendment, what label do I fit under?

173 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:14:48am

Turley was on the side opposing Randall Terry & co on the Schiavo case, and he’s on the HK / Blasphemy bandwagon from the viewpoint of a secular humanist; somewhat like the Hitch & previously mentioned in that regards.

It’s interesting that he blows this bolder than it truly is, the same lobbies in foreign countries that feed some of the far right’s anti-jihad also operate on the left as well.

174 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:15:09am

Congress wants to put hate-group ban into law

The job of recruiters could get tougher as a result of a provision in the compromise 2010 defense policy bill that bars enlistment of anyone who has been an active participant in an extremist group.

This would include any groups advocating discrimination based on race, sex, creed, religion or national origin, especially if the group advocates to the use of violence — something recruiters will have to screen for if the bill becomes law.

Participation in such groups already is prohibited for current service members by regulation, but the compromise defense bill, HR 2647, also puts the prohibition into law.

The House of Representatives gave final approval to the bill two weeks ago and the Senate is expected to take the bill up in the next few weeks.

The rules will take effect 180 days after the bill is signed into law.

/snip

175 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:15:56am

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

It’s like you don’t care if a criticsm is justified or not. Did you read the links showing that Rasmussen is problematic? If you did, did you debunk the links?

176 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:16:09am

re: #90 Charles


Turley’s article is long on anecdotes about “blasphemy,” but contains almost no real information about the actual UN resolution under discussion, or what the Obama administration actually said about it. It’s just more fear mongering for the right wing base, in my opinion.

Given what we’ve found on Turley, do you still think he’s pandering to the right wing base?

177 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:16:36am

re: #174 NJDhockeyfan

Boy Scouts?

178 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:16:44am

re: #171 Killgore Trout

If you look at composite graphs from various polling agencies they are almost always one of the more skewed polling agencies.

Here’s Gallup on approval
gallup.com

179 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:17:11am

re: #172 drcordell

…what label do I fit under?

You really like to temp a Lizard don’t you? ;-)

180 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:17:57am

Outrageous outrage of the day…
Sen. Alexander to Obama: ‘Don’t Create an Enemies List’

Liveleak Video

As usual it’s complete bullshit…
Dana Perino’s incredible double standard (video)

Rove: ‘People Would Go Nuts’ If Bush Had Campaigned Against NBC, New York Times

181 J.S.  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:18:26am

I’d like to return to the topic of the Jonathan Turley article…and the erosion of Free Speech in the western world…(I don’t see this as necessarily connected at all with President Obama). But I believe there is a disturbing trend (and it’s much, much worse in countries without a First Amendment). In Canada, it’s bad (and this, again, long pre-dates Obama’s Presidency). Publishers hauled before a Tribunal for having the audacity to publish cartoons? That’s, on the face of it, shocking and deplorable. (And, now, btw, there are these, imo, SLAPP suits going on, along with “libel tourism” —libel suits filed in Canada or the UK aimed at silencing American authors…) There does seem to be a trend, and it’s not getting any better.

182 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:18:33am

re: #180 Killgore Trout

Outrageous outrage of the day…
Sen. Alexander to Obama: ‘Don’t Create an Enemies List’

[Video]As usual it’s complete bullshit…
Dana Perino’s incredible double standard (video)

Rove: ‘People Would Go Nuts’ If Bush Had Campaigned Against NBC, New York Times

I was just getting ready to post that, it’s making the email rounds heavy this morn.

183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:18:58am

re: #180 Killgore Trout

Dana’s much cuter that I remember.

That sexist?

184 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:19:24am

How long before we have wingnut bloggers popping up who claim to be on the Obama Enemies List?

185 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:19:41am

re: #172 drcordell

Exactly my point Walter. There was nuanced discussion of Turley in the above thread, and then there were simply comments debating whether he should be labeled “left” or “far-left.” I’m saying debating the latter is stupid. Just as stupid as this debate we’re having right now.

My point is, “right” and “left” are stupid and pointless in this day and age. Where would you label Charles for example? He might label himself “right” but the nuts at ace of spades and hotair probably call him a “leftist.” The point is, “left” and “right” don’t mean jack shit anymore. If I’m pro-healthcare reform, anti-union, pro-Afghanistan war, pro-choice and pro second amendment, what label do I fit under?

Multiple Personality Disorder? :)

Your point made, I don’t agree though. Turley is a public enough figure, with a very wide trail papered with his comments and opinions, and it is no mystery that he is far left.

186 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:20:03am

re: #177 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Boy Scouts?


They will certainly be tested by groups that don’t like their stance on belief in God and sexual orientation of leaders.

This will test how much freedom of expression trumps freedom of association.

187 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:20:23am

re: #182 Thanos

I was just getting ready to post that, it’s making the email rounds heavy this morn.

Yeah, it’s almost impossible to talk people off the ledge on these stories. This stuff is nothing new but people get so worked up and outraged by normal everyday stuff because Glenn Beck and dishonest right wing blogs convince them that it’s unprecedented.

188 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:20:37am

re: #184 Thanos

How long before we have wingnut bloggers popping up who claim to be on the Obama Enemies List?

I thought we already did.

189 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:20:50am

re: #164 NJDhockeyfan

Rasmussen is not a valid pollster, Avanti told me so.

190 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:21:03am

re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dana’s much cuter that I remember.

That sexist?

Nah, I wouldn’t throw her out of bed for right wing extremism.

191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:22:00am

re: #190 Killgore Trout

She drinks a bit, no?

192 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:22:01am

Obama White House Real-Time Emailing MSNBC re: Its War On FOX News

Liveleak Video
193 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:22:12am

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

She drinks a bit, no?

Might mean I have a shot.

194 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:22:13am

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

not going to attack them - but - their numbers are consistently out of whack with the Range provided in most tracking polls.

195 DaddyG  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:22:14am

re: #184 Thanos

How long before we have wingnut bloggers popping up who claim are campaigning to be on the Obama Enemies List?

FIFY

196 bofhell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:22:23am

By the way, there is a certain irony in today’s events.

The 1977 Lincoln-Sudbury Regional High School Yearbook quotes (of all people) Richard Nixon.

“We cannot learn from one another until we stop shouting at one another - until we speak quietly enough so that our words can be heard as well as our voices.”
197 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:22:25am

re: #191 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Maybe. Not a problem for me as long as she shares.

198 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:22:31am

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

I love this quote…

“A popular president who is less popular on the issues — Obama could use his personal popularity to rally support for his less popular agenda.”

Is this a news article, or is CNN acting as an advisor to Obama?

CNN is a fortune teller with a crystal ball.

199 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:23:22am

re: #176 Guanxi88

Given what we’ve found on Turley, do you still think he’s pandering to the right wing base?

I didn’t say “pandering,” I said “fear mongering.” And yes, I think this is for the right wing base, because it’s definitely not an issue on the left.

200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:23:54am

re: #198 Spare O’Lake

Hello there, Extra Lough.

201 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:24:28am

re: #199 Charles

I didn’t say “pandering,” I said “fear mongering.” And yes, I think this is for the right wing base, because it’s definitely not an issue on the left.

Very clever, using a leftist to fear monger to the far right.

202 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:24:35am

re: #13 Mad Al-Jaffee

Those damn Quakers and their terror plots!

LOL!

203 RogueOne  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:24:41am

re: #180 Killgore Trout
2 vastly different situations. The Bush WH was pissed about how NBC edited an interview done with the president, the obama WH won’t even go on Foxnews to give an interview. I don’t see Perino or Bush anywhere say NBC isn’t a “real news” division and that they should be shunned by the rest of the press.

204 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:26:43am

re: #186 DaddyG

They will certainly be tested by groups that don’t like their stance on belief in God and sexual orientation of leaders.

This will test how much freedom of expression trumps freedom of association.

Not so much. It just means that Scouts will be denied use of some government facilities at taxpayer expense.

There are plenty of groups that have some sort of discriminatory basis for membership…and they are still around.

205 Gearhead  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:26:59am

re: #163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ratshit! Batshit! Dirty old Tw*t!
69 Assholes tied in a knot!
Hurray! Lizard shit! F*ck!
-George Carlin

Upding for gratuitous use of Carlin.

206 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:27:05am

re: #172 drcordell

My point is, “right” and “left” are stupid and pointless in this day and age.

By all means, no use trying to sort through the bullshit - let’s just throw it all on one big pile behing the barn and forget about it.
/

207 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:27:08am

re: #203 RogueOne

the obama WH won’t even go on Foxnews to give an interview.


I seem to recall they did. But anyway, do you think they shun Fox News for worse reasons then one misleadingly cut interview?

208 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:28:09am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Hmm…I recall someone catching hell from Charles and from other posters for linking that event yesterday before it happened. In fact Charles said he did not want any mention or publicity of that person on his blog.

I agree with Charles, it didn’t need to be brought up, your post #21 was kinda ok in saying that he got run off the stage, but then to come back and say he didn’t shows a certain lack of forethought and fact-checking. Just so you know, his presentation went fine but then he had to be hustled away when the Q&A session afterward turned ugly.

209 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:28:23am

re: #207 suchislife

than

210 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:28:49am

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

Rasmussen is not a valid pollster, Avanti told me so.

I don’t trust Rasmussen either. They often slant their polls outrageously — they rely on write-in polls, and only get answers from Republicans for many of them. Their results are often completely opposite from other major polling groups, and their poll writeups are often obviously biased in favor of Republicans.

And during the presidential election, they consistently pumped up the numbers for McCain and Palin way beyond the reality by these methods. They’ve been wrong much more often than right.

It’s not just avanti. I consider Rasmussen one of the more biased pollsters.

211 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:29:58am

re: #201 Guanxi88

Very clever, using a leftist to fear monger to the far right.

He doesn’t look like a “leftist” to me. He looks like a publicity hound.

212 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:30:01am

re: #207 suchislife

I seem to recall they did. But anyway, do you think they shun Fox News for worse reasons then one misleadingly cut interview?

I seem to recall the Bush WH continued to speak with NBC afterward. The NYT thing is a good parallel case, though, although, again, the WH press sec never suggested that the NYT was not a legitimate news agency.

213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:30:03am

re: #205 Gearhead

Upding for gratuitous use of Carlin.

George Carlin would s0O0O0O0O be a Lizard.

214 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:30:34am

re: #211 Charles

He doesn’t look like a “leftist” to me. He looks like a publicity hound.

He could be both. A number of lizards appear to have detected a tinge of leftism.

215 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:31:13am

Guanxi: See my note above on foreign lobbies. There’s a Serbian / Hellenic / Russian orthodox lobby that pimps the same stuff across the political spectrum. They spin it differently and accentuate different aspects dependent on audience. The Serbs in the US voted overwhelmingly for Obama, do you think if we have mouthpieces for anti-jihad on the right, that they might also have them on the left?

The mouthpieces we know on the right are Spencer/Trifkovic / Geller etc. I’ve never ID’d who their left mouthpieces are. They do bill themselves as “The fifth most influential foreign lobby in the US” however.

216 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:31:14am

re: #203 RogueOne

Interesting point, but I would add that NBC didn’t insult Laura Bush (remember how Fox News called Michelle Obama a “Baby Mama”…derogatory urban slang for an unmarried African American woman with several kids by different fathers) or encourage terrorist speculation about them on midday news programming. (I know that all limits go out the window at night on both Fox and MSNBC)

217 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:31:31am

re: #206 Spare O’Lake

behing = behind
PIMF

218 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:32:01am

re: #212 Guanxi88

The WhiteHouse says they have no problems with Brett Baier in the WH or the FNC Pentagon crew.

219 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:32:20am

re: #212 Guanxi88

So would you say that calling the NY Times not a legitimate news agency is about as accurate as calling Fox not a legitimate news agency?

220 RogueOne  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:32:29am

re: #207 suchislife

If Obama had done a sit down interview with Chris Wallace and they edited to look like he agreed with positions that he obviously doesn’t agree with, then yes he’d have every right to be irritable…But this isn’t what’s happening here, he’s punching downhill against one screaming talk show hosts and one that can’t stop crying.

221 Buck  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:33:16am

re: #207 suchislife

I seem to recall they did. But anyway, do you think they shun Fox News for worse reasons then one misleadingly cut interview?

They have actually told FOX that they will not be sending any administration members for interviews.

222 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:34:15am

re: #219 suchislife

So would you say that calling the NY Times not a legitimate news agency is about as accurate as calling Fox not a legitimate news agency?

Not at all - both would be childish and pointless.

223 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:34:33am

re: #221 Buck

They have actually told FOX that they will not be sending any administration members for interviews.

George W. Bush did exactly the same thing with the New York Times.

224 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:34:57am

re: #220 RogueOne

Beck is shrill, but he is by no means the only person on Fox who routinely lies about Obama and demonizes him.

225 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:34:58am

re: #210 Charles

I don’t trust Rasmussen either. They often slant their polls outrageously — they rely on write-in polls, and only get answers from Republicans for many of them. Their results are often completely opposite from other major polling groups, and their poll writeups are often obviously biased in favor of Republicans.

And during the presidential election, they consistently pumped up the numbers for McCain and Palin way beyond the reality by these methods. They’ve been wrong much more often than right.

It’s not just avanti. I consider Rasmussen one of the more biased pollsters.


Here’s something you might not know about Scott Rasmussen. His father Bill was the guy who founded ESPN.

226 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:35:46am

re: #222 Guanxi88

That’s what I meant - you’re saying one is as true (or untrue) as the other.

227 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:36:22am

re: #224 suchislife

Beck is shrill, but he is by no means the only person on Fox who routinely lies about Obama and demonizes him.

Who might these other offenders be? I;m talking about newscasters and program hosts, not guests.

228 sattv4u2  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:36:51am

re: #218 wozzablog

The WhiteHouse says they have no problems with Brett Baier in the WH or the FNC Pentagon crew.

It would be unprecedented to bar a credentialed reporter from the White House Press room.
Thats very different than placing a self imposed ban on any admin official from going on any Fox News or Fox Channel discussion/panel/ news show

229 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:36:56am

re: #220 RogueOne

If Obama had done a sit down interview with Chris Wallace and they edited to look like he agreed with positions that he obviously doesn’t agree with, then yes he’d have every right to be irritable…But this isn’t what’s happening here, he’s punching downhill against one screaming talk show hosts and one that can’t stop crying.

Heh!

Again, fair point. I will add, however, that Fox as a whole has been utterly hostile to the administration in every way imaginable, and Fox has not been exactly coy about it. I used to watch Fox religiously, but the only show I’ll watch now is Shep Smith. Everybody else went off the rails.

The administration sees no reason to play nice with a media entity that is actually dedicated to defeating everything the administration tries to do…merits be damned.

230 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:37:40am

re: #223 Charles

George W. Bush did exactly the same thing with the New York Times.

I think he called Maureen Dowd “The Viper”.

I like her, personally.

231 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:38:07am

re: #224 suchislife

Beck is shrill, but he is by no means the only person on Fox who routinely lies about Obama and demonizes him.

Yes, very true. Sean Hannity’s show last week featuring Jerome Corsi’s black helicopter conspiracy hallucinations, for example.

The media was pretty badly biased against George W. Bush, there’s no doubt about that. But what’s going on at Fox News these days is unprecedented bad craziness.

232 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:38:10am

re: #227 Guanxi88

mediamatters.org

You might not like media matters politics, but what they do is collect video evidence. So, they’re partial, but a good source.

233 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:39:18am

re: #200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hello there, Extra Lough.

Yo Fatherless Herbivore.

234 RogueOne  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:39:37am

PSA: Put on your pants when you make your morning coffee:

wtop.com

235 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:39:37am

re: #210 Charles

I don’t trust Rasmussen either. They often slant their polls outrageously — they rely on write-in polls, and only get answers from Republicans for many of them. Their results are often completely opposite from other major polling groups, and their poll writeups are often obviously biased in favor of Republicans.

And during the presidential election, they consistently pumped up the numbers for McCain and Palin way beyond the reality by these methods. They’ve been wrong much more often than right.

It’s not just avanti. I consider Rasmussen one of the more biased pollsters.

According to Fordham University, Rasmussen was one of the most accurate polls during the 2008 election.

The Pew Research Center and Rasmussen Reports were the most accurate in predicting the results of the 2008 election, according to a new analysis by Fordham University political scientist Costas Panagopoulos.

The Fordham analysis ranks 23 survey research organizations on their final, national pre-election polls, as reported on pollster.com.

On average, the polls slightly overestimated Obama’s strength. The final polls showed the Democratic ahead by an average of 7.52 percentage points — 1.37 percentage points above his current 6.15-point popular vote lead. Seventeen of the 23 surveys overstated Obama’s final victory level, while four underestimated it. Only two — Rasmussen and Pew — were spot on.

236 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:39:53am

re: #223 Charles

George W. Bush did exactly the same thing with the New York Times.

Really? That’s pretty silly.

237 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:41:05am

re: #236 SanFranciscoZionist

Really? That’s pretty silly.

The only difference in the two is that no one reads the NYT.

238 brent  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:41:31am

#223 - NYT

The Times has a bad habit of printing classified material, when it hurt Bush. They deserved to be cut out of the loop a bit. They were not protesting rough (and sometimes correct) stories they did not like. Scarborough had a great point this morning - sure, Fox is throwing a lot of mud, but some of it’s sticking.

If there were no Fox, who else would cover stories the hard stories? I watched CNN talk about the Acorn story for a full 2 minutes without ever saying “ACORN”. After Fox covered it for 2 days.

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:42:27am

re: #230 celticdragon

I think he called Maureen Dowd “The Viper”.

I like her, personally.

She’s funny, sometimes. When she’s on, she’s on. I liked the column she wrote in Latin (sort of) during the election.

240 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:43:19am

re: #231 Charles

I don’t want to hijack the thread, but if you ever find the time, could you post some links that show an actual widespread media bias against Bush? Or should I search in the LGF archive? And by bias I mean lies or slander, or misleading attacks, or plenty of insults before he became universally dislikes (according to the polls) and the media followed the crowd. Or are you thinking about the final year of his Presidency?

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:44:06am

re: #237 Guanxi88

The only difference in the two is that no one reads the NYT.

Well I read the NYTimes. And my parents get the Sunday Times delivered.

242 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:44:35am

Later lizards…gotta go to work.

243 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:44:50am

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

Well I read the NYTimes. And my parents get the Sunday Times delivered.

Keep doing so; they need your support.

244 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:45:06am

re: #235 NJDhockeyfan

Yes, they corrected their bias in the last week so they wouldn’t lose credibility to casual observers. That’s how you know they distort it deliberately.

245 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:45:46am

re: #232 suchislife

[Link: mediamatters.org…]

You might not like media matters politics, but what they do is collect video evidence. So, they’re partial, but a good source.

There are no impartial sources. Anyone who claims to be one is a fraud.

246 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:46:44am

Chris Mathews: Oathkeepers - paranoid patriots (video)


This stuff is the greatest gift the lefties could ever hope for. This is the only thing the Tea Parties are going to produce: Bad publicity.

247 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:46:53am

re: #244 suchislife

Yes, they corrected their bias in the last week so they wouldn’t lose credibility to casual observers. That’s how you know they distort it deliberately.

Tricksy if true. Very tricksy.

248 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:46:54am

re: #242 NJDhockeyfan

Later lizards…gotta go to work.

Yay! Work!

249 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:47:43am

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

Well I read the NYTimes. And my parents get the Sunday Times delivered.


That paperboy must have one hell of an arm.

250 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:47:44am

re: #245 Guanxi88

I agree.

251 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:47:59am

re: #240 suchislife

I don’t want to hijack the thread, but if you ever find the time, could you post some links that show an actual widespread media bias against Bush? Or should I search in the LGF archive? And by bias I mean lies or slander, or misleading attacks, or plenty of insults before he became universally dislikes (according to the polls) and the media followed the crowd. Or are you thinking about the final year of his Presidency?

“Bias” isn’t just slander or lies or insults. I’ve posted lots of examples of the bias against Bush. It was very real, although it rarely reached the level of outright lying.

However, I do agree that what’s happening in the right wing media these days goes far beyond the bias against Bush. Fox News often broadcasts completely false claims about Obama, and the right wing websites are even worse.

252 Buck  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:48:08am

re: #223 Charles

George W. Bush did exactly the same thing with the New York Times.

Being just like George W. Bush was a bad thing when Obama was saying it about McCain.

253 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:48:36am

re: #241 SanFranciscoZionist

Comedy Central Video
254 Buck  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:49:23am

re: #223 Charles

George W. Bush did exactly the same thing with the New York Times.

Wasn’t that for exposing something that hurt national security?

255 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:49:31am

The Glenn Beck chart

Glenn Beck’s affinity for chalkboard diagrams charting out the frequently illusory “connections” in the growing liberal conspiracy to undermine America is well-documented. In that spirit, Media Matters for America has explored Beck’s links to the extremist, unhinged, and sometimes paranoid people and groups that inhabit the world of right-wing political activism and laid them out in a Beck-style chart, but with two key differences: these connections actually exist, and they were spell-checked.

256 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:49:56am

re: #240 suchislife

The media bias against GWB is littered all over the LGF archives. Just do a search on George W. Bush.

257 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:50:57am

re: #200 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hello there, Extra Lough.

Good. You got it.

258 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:51:32am

re: #251 Charles

I’ll look it up, thank you! Would you also agree that there was an incredible bias in favor of Bush and his policies in the aftermath of 9/11? And that there was a strong bias in the whole of the traditional media against Bush’s critics on the left? Those dirty fucking hippies! Probably not, right?

259 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:51:37am

re: #231 Charles

Yes, very true. Sean Hannity’s show last week featuring Jerome Corsi’s black helicopter conspiracy hallucinations, for example.

The media was pretty badly biased against George W. Bush, there’s no doubt about that. But what’s going on at Fox News these days is unprecedented bad craziness.

I’m not so sure. Remember how nobody in the news really questioned whether going into Iraq was such a hot idea? Not CNN or CBS…

How about Judy Miller shilling for Don Rumsfeld at the NYT?

I was taken in. Most of us were. Later I realized that things were going pretty effing bad, and “conservatives” were screaming at the “librul” media for pointing out that things were looking pretty effing bad in Iraq. I had that debate ad nauseum over at TownHall.com.

The media hates Bush! Bush Derangement! Iraq is fine! Going to plan! Yer a traitor for suggesting otherwise!

*sigh*

The media runs a story according to the “script” which is whatever the “villagers”(reporters and editors) think is the conventional wisdom. If the CW is pro Republican talking points, they generally run things that way…and effortlessly slide to go the other way as needed…kinda like the ferry guy in “The Outlaw Josey Wales”.

“Serious People” didn’t question whether Saddam had NBC weapons, so the media treated any such claims as crank calls. Again, I fell for it.

Until we have a news media entity that is willing to do what was done in the 50’s…be independent, fearless and sceptical…we will have government spokesmen/women on either side who will take us for the proverbial ride.

260 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:51:43am

re: #248 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yay! Work!

Work…?? Oh, yeah…work!

261 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:52:02am

re: #254 Buck

Wasn’t that for exposing something that hurt national security?

Something from Kurtz at the Washington Post about it.

washingtonpost.com

262 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:52:17am

re: #256 Honorary Yooper

Will do!

263 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:53:10am

re: #255 Killgore Trout

The Glenn Beck chart

Wow. That really brings home just how extreme Glenn Beck really is.

It makes me a little nauseous to see how far out the right wing has gone.

264 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:54:14am

re: #245 Guanxi88

There are no impartial sources. Anyone who claims to be one is a fraud.

What are you gonna trust, their cheatin’ hearts or your own lyin’ eyes?

265 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:54:52am

re: #263 Charles

Wow. That really brings home just how extreme Glenn Beck really is.

It makes a little nauseous to see how far out the right wing has gone.

This kinda stuff has ALWAYS been out there. Difference is, nobody went around, as we see today, loudly proclaiming this to be the heart and soul of the American right without being challenged on it.

266 Killgore Trout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:54:54am

re: #263 Charles

It also has some groups and people I’m not familiar with. Media matters was a little kind by leaving the Republican party out of that chart.

267 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:55:20am

re: #258 suchislife

Would you also agree that there was an incredible bias in favor of Bush and his policies in the aftermath of 9/11?

No, I wouldn’t call what happened after 9/11 “bias.” I’d call it justified outrage and anger at America being attacked.

268 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:55:21am

re: #264 Spare O’Lake

What are you gonna trust, their cheatin’ hearts or your own lyin’ eyes?

Exactly.

269 charles_martel  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:56:32am

re: #251 Charles

Pew Charitable Trust reveals media bias in this past election:

liberal bias

270 charles_martel  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:58:12am

Actually, a better link is here:

survey

271 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:58:45am

re: #265 Guanxi88

So go ahead and challenge it with facts and numbers. Show how Beck is not right at the center of the modern conservative movement. How he did not orchestrate the biggest conservative populist demonstration of this administration. How his ratings aren’t going up. How there aren’t sensible moderate republicans right on this blog who think he’s indispensible to getting at the truth.

272 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:59:10am

Dr Cordell -
Earlier there was a discussion of trying to categorize “left vs. right”. It might seem simplistic, but if you are a person who diligently seeks for what is true then you need a broad class sort at the start. Why you ask?

Because you should always seek contrary opinion, facts, and source to validate against for most things political. If you know that the person is on the left you seek for contrary opinion and data from the right, and vice versa. It’s call fact checking and validating, you can do it quicker if you do a rough sort so you know where to seek the contrary at.

273 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 11:59:25am

Obama Answers Curious Student’s Question About Birthplace

274 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:00:30pm

re: #263 Charles

Wow. That really brings home just how extreme Glenn Beck really is.

It makes me a little nauseous to see how far out the right wing has gone.

I suspect that we could have made a better, more accurate chart.

275 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:01:10pm

re: #235 NJDhockeyfan

Rasmussen routinely gave out seemingly inflated numbers for Mc Cain/Palin right up until the final few weeks of the election. Then somehow the numbers changed suddenly and dramatically to show something much closer to the truth. That their final prediction was close to what really happened is not in dispute, that they possibly fudged their numbers to support the republican ticket is very much open to dispute.

I do not trust Rasmussen as this is not the only instance of them favoring the republican side in their polls. Rasmussen is often an outlier in topics that are the subject of multiple polling organizations. They often show markedly different results than those of the other national polling businesses. I want to see the truth, not something that falsely makes me think my side is doing better than it is in reality.

276 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:02:12pm

re: #271 suchislife

So go ahead and challenge it with facts and numbers. Show how Beck is not right at the center of the modern conservative movement. How he did not orchestrate the biggest conservative populist demonstration of this administration. How his ratings aren’t going up. How there aren’t sensible moderate republicans right on this blog who think he’s indispensible to getting at the truth.

I’m not Bill Buckley, nor do I play him on this site.

Is he at the center of the modern conservative movement? Not yet, he’s not, but he does have a Presidential nod in support of his desire for the position

Did he contribute to the nuttery of the Tea Parties? Of course, and I was right here raising holy hell about these nut-jobs.

His ratings are going up? Perhaps, and good luck to him with that. I infer nothing from it other than that people would rather see the Silver Gopher hyperventilate and weep than watch anything on offer at MSNBC or CNN at the same time.

Name three sensible republicans on this site who think him indispensable as a means for getting to the truth.

277 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:02:16pm

re: #256 Honorary Yooper

The media bias against GWB is littered all over the LGF archives. Just do a search on George W. Bush.

And, although, the Media Research Center is transparently one-sided in their media watching, they have done a good job over the years of compiling instances of anti-conservative bias in the news. See the archives of their Notable Quotables section, grouped by year. You can bookend them with FAIR’s work on the opposite end of the spectrum, for balance.

278 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:02:51pm

re: #275 ausador

The numbers could also have moved because of McCain’s response to the credit market collapse, and his flake-out that almost saw him withdraw from one of the debates. You can bet that affected the polling, and ties in with his drop in the polls.

Moreover, Obama was throwing significantly more money to his election bid than McCain ever could (under public financing, which Obama eschewed).

279 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:03:28pm

re: #267 Charles

justified outrage and anger at America being attacked.

So a bias resulting from justified outrage is not a bias? I would agree that it is understandable, and forgivable, but is it not still bias?
As Jon Stewart said (I paraphrase), Beck’s 9/12 project is trying to get us back to a time when we were outraged and scared. Obama’s volonteer project was an attempt to recapture the good that came of this.

280 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:05:42pm

re: #276 Guanxi88

I don’t remember, who went off on Kilgore for saying he would no longer fact check him? And where did you get your information on the czars?

281 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:05:59pm

re: #279 suchislife

So a bias resulting from justified outrage is not a bias? I would agree that it is understandable, and forgivable, but is it not still bias?
As Jon Stewart said (I paraphrase), Beck’s 9/12 project is trying to get us back to a time when we were outraged and scared. Obama’s volonteer project was an attempt to recapture the good that came of this.

Bias carries with it the implication of knowing distortion of underlying reality in support of one or another version of things.

The 9/12 thing is a way for Beck et al to keep themselves front and center (so to speak) and to keep selling advertising time for their sponsors.

We should remain outraged and “scared” as you put it, of terrorism in the aftermath of 9/11. The “good” that came from it is not to be discarded, either, but the take-away lesson from the attacks is not that we ought to spend more time in soup kitchens.

282 Randall Gross  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:06:32pm

Chuck Baldwin and Luap Nor are totally missing in that chart. Along with Alex Jones.

283 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:07:09pm

re: #282 Thanos

Chuck Baldwin and Luap Nor are totally missing in that chart. Along with Alex Jones.

No one ever said Media Matters gets things accurate.

284 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:08:05pm

re: #273 Ben Hur

Obama Answers Curious Student’s Question About Birthplace

He really knows how to pander to that demographic, mentioning “Where the Wild Things Are”.

285 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:09:12pm

LOL! Now this is funny.

286 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:09:37pm

re: #280 suchislife

I don’t remember, who went off on Kilgore for saying he would no longer fact check him? And where did you get your information on the czars?

Kilgore was addressing the entire matter of the questionable backgrounds of advisors and others to the current President, and had decided that it was not worth consideration at all. My secondary sources for the counter-claims were, inter alia, David Horowitz, who allows one to access the direct original documents in many cases, the archives of the WSJ, and Lexis-Nexis, to which I have occasional access for recreational purposes. In other cases, all that was required was simple google search to identify a primary source for one or more quotes attributable to the parties in question. WasPost’s article on Ms. King and her interference in the local election served to provide enough basic information to allow a quick check of the DoJ’s site, which confirmed it.

Facts do exist outside of the pages of the NYT and other approved organs, you know.

287 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:10:02pm

OT: If you can follow a moderately technical bio-molecular discussion, here’s a scientist pushing back at the Intelligent Design movement’s misrepresentation of his work. Apologies if it’s already been linked.

288 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:10:36pm

re: #285 Honorary Yooper

LOL! Now this is funny.

Damn, the link did’t take. Hope I didn’t roger the thread. If I did, please delete #285. Again,

Olbermann vs. Beck: ‘You’re nuts’

Can they take each other out, please?

289 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:10:37pm

re: #279 suchislife

justified outrage and anger at America being attacked.

So a bias resulting from justified outrage is not a bias? I would agree that it is understandable, and forgivable, but is it not still bias?
As Jon Stewart said (I paraphrase), Beck’s 9/12 project is trying to get us back to a time when we were outraged and scared. Obama’s volonteer project was an attempt to recapture the good that came of this.

The full quote:

No, I wouldn’t call what happened after 9/11 “bias.” I’d call it justified outrage and anger at America being attacked.

Emphasis added for possible aid in comprehension.

290 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:11:30pm

re: #281 Guanxi88

I believe that bias is often unconscious. And outrage must always be tempered with cool reason, a sense of proportion, a dedication to not blame scape goats. And frankly, the whole “don’t let the magic terrorist super villains ever step on American ground” thing showed that there is a lot of fear mixed in with the outrage. Also the constant harpening on the necessity of sacrificing liberties for security. That’s fear talking.

291 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:11:31pm

re: #288 Honorary Yooper

It’s a binary black hole of insipid stupidity.

292 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:13:25pm

re: #287 The Sanity Inspector

DI shills (like Behe) will latch onto anything, and I mean anything, to prove their point, even if it means completely twisting the truth of what was originally said or published. They did this shit during the punctuated equilibrium versus gradualism debates.

293 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:14:14pm

re: #290 suchislife

I believe that bias is often unconscious. And outrage must always be tempered with cool reason, a sense of proportion, a dedication to not blame scape goats. And frankly, the whole “don’t let the magic terrorist super villains ever step on American ground” thing showed that there is a lot of fear mixed in with the outrage. Also the constant harpening on the necessity of sacrificing liberties for security. That’s fear talking.

Our outrage was tempered with cool reason, a sense of proportion, and a dedication to not blame scapegoats. I note that we retaliated against al-Qaeda and their allies in Afghanistan and elsewhere, and we didn’t vaporize the place or slaughter civilians indiscriminately.

“fear mixed with outrage”? Yes, I’d say that was a perfectly reasonable reaction to what had just happened.

“Constant harping on the necessity of sacrificing liberties for security” - which of your rights were lost?

294 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:14:31pm

re: #291 lawhawk

It’s a binary black hole of insipid stupidity.

Explains why my link disappeared. Olby vs. Beck is like Alien vs. Predator.

295 tradewind  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:14:50pm

re: #57 GNIDAthe#seCond
Among the terror arrests are several that began as investigations years ago, during the Bush administration. Good thing the Feds weren’t c… umm, blocked in their investigation by the repeal of that intrusive, un-American Patriot Act.
///

296 Buck  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:15:26pm

re: #288 Honorary Yooper

Damn, the link did’t take. Hope I didn’t roger the thread. If I did, please delete #285. Again,

Olbermann vs. Beck: ‘You’re nuts’

Can they take each other out, please?

Beck to Olbermann: Hold on I will get to you too. Don’t rush me.

297 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:15:47pm

re: #292 Honorary Yooper

A quote from this story about vaccinations comes to mind:

The rejection of hard-won knowledge is by no means a new phenomenon. In 1905, French mathematician and scientist Henri Poincaré said that the willingness to embrace pseudo-science flourished because people “know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether illusion is not more consoling.” Decades later, the astronomer Carl Sagan reached a similar conclusion: Science loses ground to pseudo-science because the latter seems to offer more comfort. “
298 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:16:15pm

re: #286 Guanxi88

I would have dinged you up until the last sentence. You are under the impression that the NYtimes is my preferred news source? Who do you think do I go to for approval of what I may read? Unless that was a joke?

299 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:16:47pm

re: #298 suchislife

I would have dinged you up until the last sentence. You are under the impression that the NYtimes is my preferred news source? Who do you think do I go to for approval of what I may read? Unless that was a joke?

It’s a joke, the newspaper of record, and all.

300 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:17:03pm

re: #293 Guanxi88

The right to not be unconstitutionally spied on.

301 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:17:23pm

re: #300 suchislife

The right to not be unconstitutionally spied on.

You were spied upon?

302 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:18:27pm

re: #300 suchislife

Also, I was thinking about torture.

303 KingKenrod  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:18:28pm

re: #292 Honorary Yooper

DI shills (like Behe) will latch onto anything, and I mean anything, to prove their point, even if it means completely twisting the truth of what was originally said or published. They did this shit during the punctuated equilibrium versus gradualism debates.

This is OT, but since you mentioned the punctuated equilibrium debate, I thought I would plug this interesting item on observed evolution in 40,000 generations of e coli:

scientificamerican.com

One unusual observation is that the pace of mutations was slow until a particular mutation seemed to increase the pace of other mutations.

304 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:19:26pm

re: #301 Guanxi88

Correction: The knowledge that this could not happen in America, and that if it did, the person in question could sue.

305 SeaMonkey  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:19:28pm

re: #267 Charles

No, I wouldn’t call what happened after 9/11 “bias.” I’d call it justified outrage and anger at America being attacked.

Anger and outrage that were manipulated by the right-leaning media and overreaching executive branch to support Bush’s policies.

306 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:20:28pm

re: #300 suchislife

The right to not be unconstitutionally spied on.

re: #302 suchislife

Also, I was thinking about torture.

Spying required a FISA warrant, as I recall.

Torture? Well, we can go round and round on that one, of course. I think you’ll find, though, that the techniques were nothing like even half as vicious as they were claimed to be, and that the most harsh ones were not applied without sound reason, and in order to obtain information from sources who declined to cooperate under less pressure.

307 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:21:05pm

re: #304 suchislife

Correction: The knowledge that this could not happen in America, and that if it did, the person in question could sue.

Yes, if it happened without a warrant, absolutely.

308 tradewind  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:21:47pm

re: #294 Honorary Yooper

Making Kayo’s WW list is in many cases a distinct honor and character reference.

309 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:22:03pm

re: #304 suchislife

Correction: The knowledge that this could not happen in America, and that if it did, the person in question could sue.

I’ll add that anyone in this age of digital communications who expects privacy on the phone or web is delusional. Of course it’s monitored, especially if you’re found in contact with folk overseas.

310 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:22:25pm

re: #302 suchislife

And, of course, the right to a fair trial. I didn’t say my right were infringed on. I said you keep hearing that these achievements must be qualified or rolled back, for the sake of our safety. I’m saying that’s not reason, that’s fear speaking. I know we disagree on this.

311 Guanxi88  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:23:08pm

re: #310 suchislife

And, of course, the right to a fair trial. I didn’t say my right were infringed on. I said you keep hearing that these achievements must be qualified or rolled back, for the sake of our safety. I’m saying that’s not reason, that’s fear speaking. I know we disagree on this.

I think if you hold up your end and I hold up mine, the country could strike a nice balance.

312 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:23:51pm

Well, I’m glad we had a potential terror threat removed, regardless of who hates Bush, or who hates Obama.

313 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:24:23pm

Sorry to hijack this, but I have an apology to make. I let my anger at a sinde climate denier override the need to simply just state the science.

I am now going to take a new tact of simply and thoroughly debunking the foolishness without snark. It turned a science debate into a popularity contest. In that sense both Walter and Bagua were correct.

There really are a lot of very egregious lies posted on this site right now. They are not true. So please let me try a new tract.

I spent the better part of an hour debunking one set of lies.

314 Ben Hur  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:24:47pm

Ultimate Goat Fansite

Just because.

315 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:25:55pm

re: #305 SeaMonkey

Anger and outrage that were manipulated by the right-leaning media and overreaching executive branch to support Bush’s policies.

Well I wouldn’t go that far. However I do recall a saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

316 cliffster  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:26:18pm

re: #314 Ben Hur

Ultimate Goat Fansite

Just because.

I updinged you, just ‘cause.

317 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:26:44pm

re: #307 Guanxi88

No. Not since 2007.
nytimes.com

See that? A NYTimes link! I’m showing my true colors.

318 Darth_K  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:29:04pm

Hrm you know maybe John Kerry had a point in the 2004 election when he said terrorism was an intelligence and law enforcement matter. We laughed him off the stage but it certainly does seem to be more effective than heavy handed stuff.

319 lawhawk  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:30:58pm

re: #318 Darth_K

Except when it’s not. You still need to take the fight to where the terrorists are, and they aren’t just inside the borders of the US. It requires both law enforcement, CIA and other national security groups, and the military to keep the nation safe. Disregarding one puts the rest (and us) at risk.

320 wrenchwench  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:31:18pm

re: #313 LudwigVanQuixote

I am now going to take a new tact of simply and thoroughly debunking the foolishness without snark.

I’m glad to read this. When I saw your posts about overweight people, I wanted to prescribe a dose of this for you.

Youtube Video

What can I do
What can I do
Much of what you say is true
I know you see through me
But there’s no tenderness
Beneath your honesty

Oh, right and wrong
Right and wrong
Ooh, never helped us get along
You say you care for me
But there’s no tenderness
Beneath your honesty

You and me were such good friends
What’s your hurry?
You and me could make amends
I’m not worried
I’m not worried
Oh, honesty,
oh, honesty
Ooh, it’s such a waste of energy
No you don’t have to lie to me
Just give me some tenderness
Beneath your honesty
You don’t have to lie to me
Just give me some tenderness

321 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:31:19pm

re: #313 LudwigVanQuixote

Sorry to hijack this, but I have an apology to make. I let my anger at a sinde climate denier override the need to simply just state the science.

I am now going to take a new tact of simply and thoroughly debunking the foolishness without snark. It turned a science debate into a popularity contest. In that sense both Walter and Bagua were correct.

There really are a lot of very egregious lies posted on this site right now. They are not true. So please let me try a new tract.

I spent the better part of an hour debunking one set of lies.

That is good to hear and I wish for your success at finding more patience. The message you are trying to convey is an important one and you are doing well at spreading the word. When you lose your cool you only damage your credibility and by extension that of your message.

322 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:31:27pm

re: #310 suchislife

And, of course, the right to a fair trial. I didn’t say my right were infringed on. I said you keep hearing that these achievements must be qualified or rolled back, for the sake of our safety. I’m saying that’s not reason, that’s fear speaking. I know we disagree on this.

Until and unless the USA decides to retake proper control of its borders it will sadly continue to be necessary to spend vast resources to try to keep track of what illegals are up to. And any infringement on individual liberties resulting from this is to a large extent the direct result of the failure to adequately police the physical entry points to the nation.

323 Charles Johnson  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:32:49pm

re: #313 LudwigVanQuixote

Sorry to hijack this, but I have an apology to make. I let my anger at a sinde climate denier override the need to simply just state the science.

I am now going to take a new tact of simply and thoroughly debunking the foolishness without snark. It turned a science debate into a popularity contest. In that sense both Walter and Bagua were correct.

There really are a lot of very egregious lies posted on this site right now. They are not true. So please let me try a new tract.

I spent the better part of an hour debunking one set of lies.

Good for you. I think you’ll find that you’re much more persuasive if you keep the anger out of your comments, and direct it into making the best possible case.

I’m on your side in the climate change debate, as I’m sure you realize. And I agree that there are some really appalling falsehoods being posted in that thread. But then, this happens in every climate thread. Way too many people have uncritically accepted the right wing’s propaganda on this issue, without researching it for themselves.

324 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:34:15pm

re: #313 LudwigVanQuixote

Ludwig, just a question, not telling you what to do:
I thought I remembered a section in a wiki-article about climate change linking to every leading science institute in both western and eastern countries supporting the key claims that you’re defending.
Would linking to this, and asking the denier if he or she really believed in a conspiracy so vast, and whether they would also stop relying on other examples of scientific consensus maybe be a better way to go? I’m just thinking, why should a non-scientist ever go into the details like that?

325 J.S.  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:34:54pm

re: #313 LudwigVanQuixote

I’m glad to hear that, Ludwig…(insults and ad hominem turn people away from your message…even when the message is true.)

326 tradewind  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:34:56pm

re: #30 NJDhockeyfan

Down here, kids shoot each other for those. Parents who actually let their kids wear them on the streets aren’t using their heads.

327 tradewind  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:35:46pm

re: #313 LudwigVanQuixote

Gotta watch de bunker mentality, it’ll make you crazy.

328 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:35:48pm

re: #292 Honorary Yooper

DI shills (like Behe) will latch onto anything, and I mean anything, to prove their point, even if it means completely twisting the truth of what was originally said or published. They did this shit during the punctuated equilibrium versus gradualism debates.

Here’s a really great BBC program that follows a creationist “science” teacher through his tour of a natural history museum with his class of next-generation theocrats, balanced by the views of a professional paleontologist. Really excellent, in that you get the lies and weaseling

329 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:36:00pm

Please review this.

re: #240 AJStrata

Very well, let’s have at it as you say… And BTW, a couple of ground rules. I have given some thought to the anger with which I responded to your comments, so I will keep my sniping to a minimum and prove you wrong solely on the basis of science.

You have made a very large series of false claims that are simply not true. I shall do my best to address as many of them as I can as time permits. I too have a life.

So let’s get on it. Quotes are all yours.

your degrees mean little unless you have experience in the field.

Which is true. And by your own admission, you do not.

There are two sets of data over the past 30 years. The satellite data (using a single calibrated instrument to measure all points on the globe) shows no significant warming.

This is an outright lie on multiple counts. First off, of course the satellite data shows significant warming. There are also multiple satellites measuring this. In fact NASA alone has 17 doing it.

climate.nasa.gov

Given that these are NASA programs, and you claim expertise from NASA, it is particularly egregious that you do not know of them and that you distort their findings.

All of the following satellite programs, and there are more, show increasing temperatures. All papers linked are cited more than 100 times.

AVHRR
noaasis.noaa.gov

ASTER
asterweb.jpl.nasa.gov

ASTER is supported by the European ERS1

agu.org

Just throwing that paper in in case you want to say ASTER doesn’t work…

and AIRS are four of them you should know about.

airs.jpl.nasa.gov

Here is a review from 1998, of how you get data from these sorts of things - the basic physics at least - which you are falsely discounting, but should actually know yourself, so you would not make such errors…

www2.bren.ucsb.edu

Now what of the actual data? You falsely claim it shows no warming. This is also an outright lie.

Here is the truth. It turns out that we are warming faster than the models predicted…

science.samxxzy.ns02.info

And here is a review of some actual measurements:

airs.jpl.nasa.gov

climate.nasa.gov

data.giss.nasa.gov

data.giss.nasa.gov since this is from NASA, and you claim your own authority by association with NASA, you should not lie about what the data says.

330 avanti  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:36:15pm

re: #70 ggt

Why is the number of firearms he had newsworthy? What does it prove?

That he had the means to be a real threat, not necessarily the motivation.

331 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:37:19pm

re: #313 LudwigVanQuixote

Sorry to hijack this, but I have an apology to make. I let my anger at a sinde climate denier override the need to simply just state the science.

I am now going to take a new tact of simply and thoroughly debunking the foolishness without snark. It turned a science debate into a popularity contest. In that sense both Walter and Bagua were correct.

There really are a lot of very egregious lies posted on this site right now. They are not true. So please let me try a new tract.

I spent the better part of an hour debunking one set of lies.

Why not try a new tack instead?
;D

332 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:37:22pm

re: #323 Charles

You are right
So I have just as thoroughly as I can debunked on of his outright lies.

There are dozens more. He cherry picks something and claims that CO2 does not raise temperatures.

333 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:38:47pm

re: #319 lawhawk

Except when it’s not. You still need to take the fight to where the terrorists are, and they aren’t just inside the borders of the US. It requires both law enforcement, CIA and other national security groups, and the military to keep the nation safe. Disregarding one puts the rest (and us) at risk.

I agree, it’s also a military matter, although I get Kerry’s point. But I have to admit I always thought the phrase “War on terror” a bad idea, because it means that we have to think ourselves as involved in a war forever. That really changes the meaning of the word war. I thought the same thing about the war on drugs and crime.

334 spoosmith  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:38:49pm

re: #314 Ben Hur

Skimming through the comments, I thought this said “Ultimate Goatse Fansite” and thought it was either the mother of all tangents or a misplaced Glen Beck fan site.

335 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:42:37pm

re: #328 SixDegrees

Here’s a really great BBC program that follows a creationist “science” teacher through his tour of a natural history museum with his class of next-generation theocrats, balanced by the views of a professional paleontologist. Really excellent, in that you get the lies and weaseling

Good God.

If I end up teaching earth science at the high school level, I have to try to undo this kind of damage from idiots like this “creationist teacher”.

336 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:44:57pm

re: #108 Charles

Wow. The only possible explanation for dodging a question like that is that Vitter doesn’t want to alienate the racist part of his constituency.

OR, Vitter just has a problem with marriage.

Prostitution scandal
[edit]D.C. Madam
In early July 2007, Vitter’s phone number was included in a published list of phone records of Pamela Martin and Associates, a company owned and run by Deborah Jeane Palfrey, also known as the “D.C. Madam”, convicted by the U.S. government for running a prostitution service. Hustler identified the phone number and contacted Vitter’s office to ask about his connection to Palfrey.[18][19] The following day, Vitter issued a written statement:
“ This was a very serious sin in my past for which I am, of course, completely responsible. Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God and my wife in confession and marriage counseling. Out of respect for my family, I will keep my discussion of the matter there — with God and them. But I certainly offer my deep and sincere apologies to all I have disappointed and let down in any way.[20]

Or both.
Vitter is a Louisiana Republican who will never get a vote from this household.

337 J.S.  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:45:14pm

OT

CNN is featuring Edmonton, Alberta…there’s a hostage situation (IT’s NOT BRITISH COLUMBIA ! It’s Alberta…Edmonton s the Capital of the Province.) Been going on since 9 am..

338 simoom  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:48:37pm

re: #70 ggt

Why is the number of firearms he had newsworthy? What does it prove?

When he makes threats (criminal behavior) many things take on an added degree of significance. For example, if he’s one of these sorts who likes to fantasize about overthrowing the government, having the ability to arm a whole platoon all by himself may be noteworthy.

339 SixDegrees  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:49:04pm

re: #335 celticdragon

Good God.

If I end up teaching earth science at the high school level, I have to try to undo this kind of damage from idiots like this “creationist teacher”.

Heart and Soul is a really good program that focuses on religious themes. A couple weeks ago they had another show on Christian fundamentalism, tracing it’s origins back to the Enlightenment and explaining how it developed hand in hand with the rise of the scientific method, which the church viewed as supplementing the understanding of God’s creation and providing a rigorous, logical, rational demonstration of God’s existence.

The parting of the ways is quite recent.

340 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:51:01pm

re: #322 Spare O’Lake

it will sadly continue to be necessary to spend vast resources to try to keep track of what illegals are up to.

Don’t be sad! I can help. They want to find a job, get their families to join them and give their children a chance at a better life.

I must say this is the first time I hear someone say that to keep illegal immigration in check it is necessary to infringe on individual liberties (especially since the ones I mentioned were freedom from torture, illegal wiretapping, and the right to a fair trial). I mostly hear about this wall and the minute men, and on the left I hear about coming down hard on the employers.

341 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:54:23pm

re: #324 suchislife

Ludwig, just a question, not telling you what to do:
I thought I remembered a section in a wiki-article about climate change linking to every leading science institute in both western and eastern countries supporting the key claims that you’re defending.
Would linking to this, and asking the denier if he or she really believed in a conspiracy so vast, and whether they would also stop relying on other examples of scientific consensus maybe be a better way to go? I’m just thinking, why should a non-scientist ever go into the details like that?

Oh it is a great tactic. It works well for the innocent bystander.

The denier then splutters about grant money and looks foolish.

342 suchislife  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 12:58:05pm

Gre: #306 Guanxi88

Torture? Well, we can go round and round on that one, of course. I think you’ll find, though, that the techniques were nothing like even half as vicious as they were claimed to be, and that the most harsh ones were not applied without sound reason, and in order to obtain information from sources who declined to cooperate under less pressure.

Ok, so here is the partial Rachel Maddow, saying something else. Is she lying?
vodpod.com
Nothing would make me happier than someone disproving this.

343 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:04:53pm

re: #281 Guanxi88


We should remain outraged and “scared” as you put it, of terrorism in the aftermath of 9/11. The “good” that came from it is not to be discarded, either, but the take-away lesson from the attacks is not that we ought to spend more time in soup kitchens.

True. However, I recall some damfool stuff in the wake of 9/11. It’s important to distinguish between national security and:

1. Pet projects that now HAVE to be completed for national security’s sake. (“We need to build a wall across the Mexican border NOW.”)
2. Saccharine sentimentality masquerading as patriotism.
3. Pigheaded partisanship masquerading as patriotism.

BTW, does anyone else remember the small town somewhere in, I think, the Midwest, that made the news by cancelling their elementary school trip to the pumpkin patch in 2001, citing terrorism fears?

344 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:05:07pm

re: #318 Darth_K

upding.

345 Bagua  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:09:03pm

re: #313 LudwigVanQuixote

Sorry to hijack this, but I have an apology to make. I let my anger at a sinde climate denier override the need to simply just state the science.

I am now going to take a new tact of simply and thoroughly debunking the foolishness without snark. It turned a science debate into a popularity contest. In that sense both Walter and Bagua were correct.
[…]

Noted and appreciated.

re: #323 Charles

Good for you. I think you’ll find that you’re much more persuasive if you keep the anger out of your comments, and direct it into making the best possible case. […]

My point exactly which I have made many times.

346 charles_martel  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:09:03pm

re: #343 SanFranciscoZionist

Quite true. We must remain vigilant, but beware of hysteria.

347 doubter4444  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:15:55pm

re: #305 SeaMonkey

Anger and outrage that were manipulated by the right-leaning media and overreaching executive branch to support Bush’s policies.

I lean left, and even I don’t think the media leansleft.
I think they are spineless, nut-less bowls of jelly worried about the future of print and TV news to the point of pissing them self’s and in the process, hastening their own demise, but I don’t think they lean right.

348 doubter4444  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:18:12pm

I lean left, and even I don’t think the media leans right.
PIMF.
I’m so used to seeing the phrase “Left leaning Media”, that I did it unintentionally.

349 Sully33  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:31:44pm

This is an interesting story to me for a few reasons…

1: It’s my home state,
2: That is a wealthy town… If he had a home there, he’s loaded.
3: What on earth motivates a man in this circumstance to be a terrorist?

350 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:35:15pm

More debunking of outright lies.

Ludwig Von Beck,

But hopefully you know it represents only 3% of the GHG’s. So increasing it to 3.5% is not going to do squat globally.

For those interested, the idea of GHG’s actually storing heat in any amount necessary to increase temps was debunked.

Now this is your singe most false and egregious post.

Let’s take it apart one piece at a time.

Yes, CO2 is a GHG. But hopefully you know it represents only 3% of the GHG’s. So increasing it to 3.5% is not going to do squat globally.

And yet, we would be 60 degrees cooler if not for that small amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. So it clearly does have a significant effect. Further an increase from 3% to 3.5 % and these are the wrong numbers anyway would have a very significant effect as that is fractionally a very large increase.

No how do we know how warm the Earth is because of the CO2 blanket? Someone with your expertise should be able to calculate such a thing to first order yes? It is after all a homework problem for sophomores.

So let me run you through it. It is called an energy budget model. It is based on the idea that energy is conserved.

1. Estimate the amount of CO2 you have.
1a, Take pressure and total atmosphere into account…

2. Look at the absorption of CO2 and how many watts come in from the sun in those bands…

3. Remember that energy is conserved.

The first detailed calculation of this time was done in the late 1890’s by Svante Ahrenius. In fact, he took curvatures and soils into account as well.

He found…

wiki.nsdl.org s/GlobalWarming/Article4

Arrhenius used his model to calculate the change of temperature that would follow if the quantity of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere was two-thirds, double, or even triple its present value. He reported that a doubling of CO2 would raise global temperatures by about 3 to 3.5 °C while a reduction of CO2 by one-third would lower temperatures by roughly the same amount. These values happen to be within the range of current estimates even though Arrhenius ignored the possible effects of changes of horizontal advection and cloud cover and worked with very limited spectroscopic data. For example, the infrared atmospheric window between 8 and 12 microns and the strong carbon dioxide and water vapor absorption bands beyond 12 microns were unknown at the time.

Now this is really well established science.

Right, this has been standing in it’s basic from since 1896! We know full well increasing CO2 increases temperature. The fact that you are trying to deny this is like someone trying to deny the importance of Origin of the Species.

351 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:37:10pm

re: #350 LudwigVanQuixote

Bad link fixed…

wiki.nsdl.org

And continuing…

Here are some more of the many seminal papers on the basic mechanism. The nonsense paper that was unpublished, with good reason would be shocked to find these exist, as it foolishly claims they do not.

Ångström, Knut (1900). “Über die Bedeutung des Wasserdampfes und der Kohlensaüres bei der Absorption der Erdatmosphäre.” Annalen der Physik 4(3): 720-32. published online 308(12): 720-32 (2006) [doi: 10.1002/andp.19003081208]

Angstrom! You know that guy we named the unit after?

He made such a calculation way back when too!

Now these were simple models it took the work of Hulbert to really bring it forward in 1931!

Hulburt, E.O. (1931). “The Temperature of the Lower Atmosphere of the Earth.” Physical Review 38: 1876-90.

The point in this is that not only is is established science that CO2 concentrations will raise a temperature, but that it is very old and very well established science.

352 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 1:56:56pm

re: #349 Sully33

This is an interesting story to me for a few reasons…

1: It’s my home state,
2: That is a wealthy town… If he had a home there, he’s loaded.
3: What on earth motivates a man in this circumstance to be a terrorist?

Not poverty, obviously.

353 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 2:04:33pm

re: #340 suchislife

Don’t be sad! I can help. They want to find a job, get their families to join them and give their children a chance at a better life.

I must say this is the first time I hear someone say that to keep illegal immigration in check it is necessary to infringe on individual liberties (especially since the ones I mentioned were freedom from torture, illegal wiretapping, and the right to a fair trial). I mostly hear about this wall and the minute men, and on the left I hear about coming down hard on the employers.

When you let enough foreign elements enter virtually at will, you end up needing a lot of extra police and government agents sticking their noses into a lot of peoples’ business to try to regain some kind of control over national security. Is that such a radical proposition?

354 bofhell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 2:06:45pm

re: #349 Sully33

This is an interesting story to me for a few reasons…

1: It’s my home state,
2: That is a wealthy town… If he had a home there, he’s loaded.
3: What on earth motivates a man in this circumstance to be a terrorist?

Sully,

Sudbury is my home town, and I’d like to address your points 2 and 3.

If you look at Zillow, and zoom in on Sudbury, you will find that there are a very wide range of home prices — looking at the part of town where I lived, the homes range in price from about $300k to $1.5M. I’m sure the 300k homes are not as large or nice as the 1.5M homes, but to suggest that by virtue of residing in Sudbury implies your loaded seems a bit of a leap.

Furthermore, he didn’t own a home in Sudbury, his parents own the home in Sudbury. The article on CNN earlier states his father is a professor of Medicinal Chemstry at the Massachusetts College of Pharmacology. The Boston Herald reports that his mother has a license to run an at-home day care center for up to six kids.

Now don’t get me wrong, his parents certainly live a comfortable life and all, but I think it may push things to say they are loaded (that is to say they have a large pool of disposable income). A quick check on Intelius suggests they have a second child, and based on what has been disclosed about Tarek, (that he appears to have both an undergraduate and graduate education), there is a reasonable case to be made that the family has large education costs.

Moving on to your third point, that’s one of the great puzzlements of all time — Mehanna’s action may be that of a terrorist and are almost certainly motivated by hatred of the West, of the society that he grew up in, but how different is that from Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, who went on a rampage at Columbine?

Here’s something else to chew on.

Today, police arrested a 15 YO boy in Monroe, NY. He had stockpiled gasoline and knives in preparation for a Columbine-style attack at his high school.

Is he that different than Mehanna?

355 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 2:15:45pm

re: #352 The Sanity Inspector

hating us for out freedom - obviously


/

356 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 2:16:28pm

re: #354 bofhell

From the news report:

The complaint alleges that, among other things, Mehanna and two of his associates traveled to the Middle East in February 2004, seeking military-type training at a terrorist training camp that would prepare them for armed jihad against U.S. and allied forces in Iraq.

In November 2008, Mehanna was arrested and charged with lying to the FBI when asked about the whereabouts of Daniel Maldonado, who trained with al-Qaida members.

At the time, Mehanna told the FBI Maldonado was living in Egypt, but officials said Maldonado called Mehanna from Somalia urging him to join him in “training for jihad.”

Jihadist motivation and the planned scope of the attacks are the main differences - or doesn’t that matter?
Get real.

357 bofhell  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 2:25:00pm

re: #356 Spare O’Lake

From the news report:

Jihadist motivation and the planned scope of the attacks are the main differences - or doesn’t that matter?
Get real.

The kid in Monroe is no Jihadist that anyone is aware of, nor is there any suggestion that Mehanna’s parents imbued some sense of bloodlust in him. I would suggest that other factors are in play to bring a person to this point.

358 mikhailtheplumber  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 2:58:18pm

I’m pretty sure that the wingnut reaction to this will be agreeing with Dick Cheney and saying how “Obama is not making America safe”, even though this guy was plotting all through the Bush years and was only arrested now.

359 jayzee  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 4:21:54pm

On a side note, there was definitely a heightened level of security in NYC today. Was in a parking garage that usually has a cop there, when I came out and the meeting over, there were two, national guardsmen equipped with M16. Clip was in.

360 jayzee  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 4:26:40pm

re: #358 mikhailtheplumber

I’m pretty sure that the wingnut reaction to this will be agreeing with Dick Cheney and saying how “Obama is not making America safe”, even though this guy was plotting all through the Bush years and was only arrested now.

“President Obama campaigned against it all across the country. Now he’s making some choices that in my mind will, in fact, raise the risk to the American people to another attack.”

I am not a wingnut, and I agree with Cheney’s statement. Closing Gitmo, CIA sites etc, will hurt this country and our ability to defend ourselves against our enemy.

361 amrafel  Wed, Oct 21, 2009 9:03:46pm

Why did Mehanna have to be a school teacher, of all professions?

necn.com

Looks like he taught middle school alkeida, err, I mean algebra.


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