flashvars=”image=http%3A%2F%2ftheonion.com%2Fcontent%2Ffiles%2Fimages%2FROOF_COLLAPSE_ARTICLE_10_22.jpg&videoid=98860&title=Fatal%20Staples%20Center%20Collapse%20Brings%20Merciful%20Early%20End%20To%20Clippers%20Game”
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watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:41:54pm |
Happy birthday to you;
happy birthday to you;
happy birthday dear internet;
happy birthday to you.
The first ARPANET link was established between the University of California, Los Angeles and the Stanford Research Institute on 22:30 hours on October 29, 1969.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
(ok, so really it isn't 40 years old till 10:30 PST, but it is past 10:30 here already.)
| 2 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:45:17pm |
Does the fact that I found this funny mean I'm going to hell? :P
| 4 |
Varek Raith Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:46:42pm |
re: #3 Sharmuta
They could have gone with the Redskins too.
Ha! My parents would most certainly agree with that!
| 5 |
metrolibertarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:49:52pm |
"Suns Competent Enough to Leave Unhurt"
Yet not competent enough to make any moves this offseason to keep up with my Spurs or the Lakers.
| 6 |
TheMatrix31 Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:50:40pm |
Hah. Considering I was at the game they're presumably talking about and the fact that it wasnt a blowout but they only lost by two and should have won by seven---eh.
| 7 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:50:52pm |
Too bad it wasn't the Buccaneers, oh well, one can't have everything I guess.
| 9 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:54:10pm |
LOL! The Clippers had fans? Who Knew!
| 10 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 7:57:41pm |
Funny as this is, and as pathetic as the Clippers are, I still winced a few times at this one.
| 11 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:02:30pm |
re: #2 Varek Raith
Does the fact that I found this funny mean I'm going to hell? :P
I hope not. I found it funny, too!
| 12 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:02:53pm |
re: #10 Racer X
Funny as this is, and as pathetic as the Clippers are, I still winced a few times at this one.
So did I. It wasn't too bad, but it was very close to the line, if not over it at times.
| 13 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:03:02pm |
re: #3 Sharmuta
Did you hear about the vandalism at Zorn's house?
Someone painted a goal post on his front door... now he can't get in.
| 14 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:03:47pm |
re: #9 Floral Giraffe
LOL! The Clippers had fans? Who Knew!
People paint their faces with the Clippers' colors?
| 16 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:04:51pm |
re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Did you hear about the vandalism at Zorn's house?
Someone painted a goal post on his front door... now he can't get in.
hahahahahahahahaha
| 17 |
Sharmuta Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:06:04pm |
re: #10 Racer X
Funny as this is, and as pathetic as the Clippers are, I still winced a few times at this one.
This wasn't as bad as the shaken baby spoof.
| 18 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:07:02pm |
| 19 |
van helsing Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:08:38pm |
This will be awkward. ICANN and new domain names
| 20 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:09:26pm |
| 21 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:10:24pm |
| 22 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:11:26pm |
re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'm a Cowboys fan. But DAYAM!
| 23 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:11:53pm |
| 24 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:11:57pm |
re: #19 van helsing
No. You're not chopped liver.
| 26 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:12:46pm |
| 31 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:13:53pm |
re: #13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Did you hear about the vandalism at Zorn's house?
Someone painted a goal post on his front door... now he can't get in.
Oh, harsh! As an lifelong Deadskins fan (in Texas!!), I resemble that remark. We suck.
| 32 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:14:26pm |
| 33 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:14:58pm |
re: #29 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
kinda sorta?
kinda sorta.
My mind is mainly on the question of:
How do people manage to raise kids, particularly teenaged girls, without going batshit crazy with worry?
| 34 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:15:36pm |
re: #31 austin_blue
Oh, harsh! As an lifelong Deadskins fan (in Texas!!), I resemble that remark. We suck.
I'm a Cowboys fan, but, well shit. It's more fun when we are battling it out for something that matters.
SNYDER IS THE WORST OWNER IN FOOTBALL EVER!
(including Al Davis.)
| 35 |
jaunte Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:16:08pm |
re: #33 reine.de.tout
We go [through] batshit crazy, and emerge on the other side.
| 36 |
Van Helsing Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:17:20pm |
re: #33 reine.de.tout
kinda sorta.
My mind is mainly on the question of:
How do people manage to raise kids, particularly teenaged girls, without going batshit crazy with worry?
They don't.
Well, I didn't.
The worry... never really stops.
I hope this helps you in some small way.
| 38 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:17:49pm |
re: #35 jaunte
We go [through] batshit crazy, and emerge on the other side.
{jaunte}
I hope I live long enough to emerge on the other side.
Gah.
| 39 |
Digital Display Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:18:20pm |
re: #34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'm a Cowboys fan, but, well shit. It's more fun when we are battling it out for something that matters.
SNYDER IS THE WORST OWNER IN FOOTBALL EVER!
(including Al Davis.)
All e needs to do is hire a great GM.. How hard is that?
/Of course if I was a billionaire I'd screw up everything
*wink*
| 40 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:18:21pm |
re: #34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'm a Cowboys fan, but, well shit. It's more fun when we are battling it out for something that matters.
SNYDER IS THE WORST OWNER IN FOOTBALL EVER!
(including Al Davis.)
He's not good. But they have won two games this year> But they lost to Detroit. But then again, Philly lost to Oakland.
Go figure.
| 42 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:18:37pm |
re: #36 Van Helsing
They don't.
Well, I didn't.The worry... never really stops.
I hope this helps you in some small way.
Doesn't help at all (but you knew that!)
But it's what I figured.
| 43 |
jaunte Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:19:35pm |
re: #38 reine.de.tout
Eventually you realize you are doing your best, doing what you can do.
The rest is out of your hands.
| 44 |
metrolibertarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:19:45pm |
re: #34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I'm a Cowboys fan, but, well shit. It's more fun when we are battling it out for something that matters.
SNYDER IS THE WORST OWNER IN FOOTBALL EVER!
(including Al Davis.)
Blasphemy. THIS Cowboys fan couldn't be happier to see the Redskins suffering. If only the Eagles and Giants were going through what the 'Skins are going through too...
| 45 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:20:33pm |
| 46 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:21:53pm |
re: #40 austin_blue
He's not good. But they have won two games this year> But they lost to Detroit. But then again, Philly lost to Oakland.
Go figure.
BTW Austin, I did want to mention to you that Sprint (the company I work for) is launching 4G Wireless Cards for PCs next month in Austin. Any interest?
| 47 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:22:12pm |
re: #33 reine.de.tout
kinda sorta.
My mind is mainly on the question of:
How do people manage to raise kids, particularly teenaged girls, without going batshit crazy with worry?
My baby brother had two. When dates came by to pick his girls up, he was cleaning his shotgun on the front porch:
"You *will* have her home by ten thirty, won't you?"
(voice cracking) "Oh, yes, sir!"
(daughter) "Oh, daddy!"
Then again, they were never late.
| 48 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:22:57pm |
re: #44 metrolibertarian
Blasphemy. THIS Cowboys fan couldn't be happier to see the Redskins suffering. If only the Eagles and Giants were going through what the 'Skins are going through too...
This Cowboys fan has made peace with the Eagles. Andy Reid is just a good man, plain and simple. The Redskins though - may a constant barrage of losing seasons haunt them until time's end.
| 49 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:23:15pm |
re: #46 Dark_Falcon
HEY! I've had Sprint for ten years!
| 50 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:23:53pm |
re: #33 reine.de.tout
kinda sorta.
My mind is mainly on the question of:
How do people manage to raise kids, particularly teenaged girls, without going batshit crazy with worry?
I don't know.
There is a sweet woman who teaches at my school. She was a nun for many years, left the order, but has remained single. She says that if she had children, she would put GPS chips in them, and then not allow them to leave her sight at any time.
| 51 |
Van Helsing Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:24:06pm |
re: #42 reine.de.tout
On a lighter note, you teach them what you can, what you know, and what you value.
It will seem as thought they don't hear you at all, but keep doing it.
The reward comes when they are out on their (as mine are) and they tell you, "You're not as dumb as I thought you were".
Hey, you take what you can get.
| 52 |
metrolibertarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:25:32pm |
re: #48 cliffster
This Cowboys fan has made peace with the Eagles. Andy Reid is just a good man, plain and simple. The Redskins though - may a constant barrage of losing seasons haunt them until time's end.
I, at one point, had stopped hating on the Eagles. But then they signed Michael Vick, and the hatred for the Eagles I developed while living in Bucks County, PA as a Cowboys fan came back in a torrent.
| 53 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:25:55pm |
re: #46 Dark_Falcon
BTW Austin, I did want to mention to you that Sprint (the company I work for) is launching 4G Wireless Cards for PCs next month in Austin. Any interest?
You will be shocked and amazed to learn that I have neither a laptop nor a personal cell phone. I have a pager for my ER work and a cell phone that is strictly a work phone. I love technology but truly enjoy it when it suits me. I hate being at its beck and call. My pager is the mark of Satan.
I live with it.
| 54 |
Van Helsing Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:26:04pm |
thought = though
their = their own
typing = my enemy
g'nite folks.
| 56 |
MandyManners Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:28:44pm |
re: #33 reine.de.tout
kinda sorta.
My mind is mainly on the question of:
How do people manage to raise kids, particularly teenaged girls, without going batshit crazy with worry?
Valium.
I got a call from school today. The Kid and his best buddy were beating on each other with their backpacks before class yesterday and didn't stop the first time their teacher told them to stop. They did the same thing this morning but refused to stop after she told them to stop a second time.
So they both had in-school suspension today with extra work and they didn't get to attend the school's Halloween party. When the principal told me, I just laughed and said it sounded like stupid kid stuff.
| 57 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:32:42pm |
It's hazelnut season here so I made Hazelnut pesto tonight. Came out really well. I have left over roasted nuts so I'm going to try Hazelnut Butter on an English muffin in the AM.
| 58 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:33:51pm |
re: #56 MandyManners
Mebbe 'cause it's stupid kid stuff?
| 59 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:33:56pm |
re: #46 Dark_Falcon
BTW Austin, I did want to mention to you that Sprint (the company I work for) is launching 4G Wireless Cards for PCs next month in Austin. Any interest?
How will the 4G be different from the current?
| 60 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:34:46pm |
re: #56 MandyManners
I watched Where the Wild Things Are today. It's not a movie for kids but a movie about childhood. Especially relevant to boys. Might be worth seeing for you.
| 61 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:34:52pm |
Okay, I'll drop the turd in the punchbowl. According to the Congressional Budget Office, Pelosi's health care bill will cover 96% of all citizens and save the Gubmint $100 billion over 10 years:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
(You may not like his politics, but his content is absolutely vetted.)
Discuss?
| 62 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:35:24pm |
re: #53 austin_blue
You will be shocked and amazed to learn that I have neither a laptop nor a personal cell phone. I have a pager for my ER work and a cell phone that is strictly a work phone. I love technology but truly enjoy it when it suits me. I hate being at its beck and call. My pager is the mark of Satan.
I live with it.
That's fine, just thought I'd offer.
| 63 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:36:05pm |
re: #56 MandyManners
Valium.
I got a call from school today. The Kid and his best buddy were beating on each other with their backpacks before class yesterday and didn't stop the first time their teacher told them to stop. They did the same thing this morning but refused to stop after she told them to stop a second time.
So they both had in-school suspension today with extra work and they didn't get to attend the school's Halloween party. When the principal told me, I just laughed and said it sounded like stupid kid stuff.
Oh, golly!
It was stupid kid stuff. But there's a consequence, and they have to deal with it.
Daughter just turned 18 a couple of weeks ago. She's a HS senior.
Tonight she and 2 of her girlfriends are on the LSU campus where there is an annual huge Halloween block party. She was supposed to go with her boyfriend, but they had a fight so she's with 2 girlfriends.
Tomorrow they're headed to New Orleans for Voodoo Fest. The 3 girls. I was so worried about them going alone, I bought the boyfriend a ticket to go, so I'd feel like they are safer. But now they're fighting and he's not sure he's going to go.
I'm not gonna sleep 'til she gets home tomorrow night.
I'm sure they'll be OK. But I'm just worried sick. I keep checking the ATT "family locate" by cell phone - I'm not sure what it will tell me, really, other than she's in the general vicinity of where she said she'd be.
| 64 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:36:21pm |
OT before bed.
I just finished reading "Twilight" by William Gay.
A beautifully lyrical, but achingly sad book
Recommended for those who read fiction.
| 65 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:36:25pm |
re: #62 Dark_Falcon
That's fine, just thought I'd offer.
No worries my friend. I will talk it up in the 'hood.
| 66 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:37:52pm |
re: #59 Bagua
How will the 4G be different from the current?
It's 3-5 times faster than any 3G service. It also has an unlimited plan for only $59.99 a month when you buy it with a router. If you have a laptop and its available where you live, 4G is the Roll-Royce of mobile data.
| 67 |
MandyManners Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:38:01pm |
re: #58 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Mebbe 'cause it's stupid kid stuff?
The principal told me in a roundabout way that she thought it was not a big deal but, she said his teacher is the strictest and toughest one in the elementary school. Good. He needs a boot up his butt at times.
| 68 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:38:04pm |
re: #61 austin_blue
Okay, I'll drop the turd in the punchbowl. According to the Congressional Budget Office, Pelosi's health care bill will cover 96% of all citizens and save the Gubmint $100 billion over 10 years:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
(You may not like his politics, but his content is absolutely vetted.)
Discuss?
For conservatives, of course, it’s an easy decision: They don’t want Americans to have universal coverage, and they don’t want President Obama to succeed.
*snore*
| 69 |
MandyManners Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:38:58pm |
re: #60 Killgore Trout
I watched Where the Wild Things Are today. It's not a movie for kids but a movie about childhood. Especially relevant to boys. Might be worth seeing for you.
I'm still boycotting Hollywood.
| 70 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:38:58pm |
re: #61 austin_blue
RINO! IHateSocialistObama-dot-com crunched the numbers and clrealy shows that the death panels will collapse the dollar and bring the Second Coming of the 12th Imam. Cthulu and Voldemort will rejoice in the Halls of the Visigoths for eternity!
/wingnut
| 71 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:39:00pm |
re: #63 reine.de.tout
Oh, golly!
It was stupid kid stuff. But there's a consequence, and they have to deal with it.Daughter just turned 18 a couple of weeks ago. She's a HS senior.
Tonight she and 2 of her girlfriends are on the LSU campus where there is an annual huge Halloween block party. She was supposed to go with her boyfriend, but they had a fight so she's with 2 girlfriends.
Tomorrow they're headed to New Orleans for Voodoo Fest. The 3 girls. I was so worried about them going alone, I bought the boyfriend a ticket to go, so I'd feel like they are safer. But now they're fighting and he's not sure he's going to go.
I'm not gonna sleep 'til she gets home tomorrow night.
I'm sure they'll be OK. But I'm just worried sick. I keep checking the ATT "family locate" by cell phone - I'm not sure what it will tell me, really, other than she's in the general vicinity of where she said she'd be.
Reine;
No snark, just asking- do you think she is at greater risk today than you were at 18?
| 72 |
MandyManners Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:40:50pm |
re: #63 reine.de.tout
Oh, golly!
It was stupid kid stuff. But there's a consequence, and they have to deal with it.Daughter just turned 18 a couple of weeks ago. She's a HS senior.
Tonight she and 2 of her girlfriends are on the LSU campus where there is an annual huge Halloween block party. She was supposed to go with her boyfriend, but they had a fight so she's with 2 girlfriends.
Tomorrow they're headed to New Orleans for Voodoo Fest. The 3 girls. I was so worried about them going alone, I bought the boyfriend a ticket to go, so I'd feel like they are safer. But now they're fighting and he's not sure he's going to go.
I'm not gonna sleep 'til she gets home tomorrow night.
I'm sure they'll be OK. But I'm just worried sick. I keep checking the ATT "family locate" by cell phone - I'm not sure what it will tell me, really, other than she's in the general vicinity of where she said she'd be.
I'd be flipping out, too. No matter how trustworthy or level-headed young women are at that age, shit can happen.
| 73 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:40:54pm |
re: #69 MandyManners
Suit yourself but the movie distill what it's like to be a little boy pretty damn well. I speak from experience.
| 74 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:41:39pm |
re: #61 austin_blue
Okay, I'll drop the turd in the punchbowl. According to the Congressional Budget Office, Pelosi's health care bill will cover 96% of all citizens and save the Gubmint $100 billion over 10 years:
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
(You may not like his politics, but his content is absolutely vetted.)
Discuss?
Here's a good rebuttal to Krugman:
And keep in mind that "saving" involves raising a lot of taxes
| 75 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:42:03pm |
re: #70 Killgore Trout
RINO! IHateSocialistObama-dot-com crunched the numbers and clrealy shows that the death panels will collapse the dollar and bring the Second Coming of the 12th Imam. Cthulu and Voldemort will rejoice in the Halls of the Visigoths for eternity!
/wingnut
Hah! You've got that Fox/Paulian crowd down, dontcha?
| 76 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:42:46pm |
re: #71 austin_blue
Reine;
No snark, just asking- do you think she is at greater risk today than you were at 18?
No.
In fact, she's probably at lesser risk, because she's smarter than I was, and she is also very capable.
It what other people around her will do that I worry about more than anything else.
Plus, I worry by nature. It's just what I do.
| 77 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:43:28pm |
re: #71 austin_blue
Reine;
No snark, just asking- do you think she is at greater risk today than you were at 18?
No doubt about it. I won't go into the details of why I say that, because of the personal stakeholders present, but I worry all the time about what my 3-year-old girlkid is in for in a decade.
| 78 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:43:59pm |
re: #66 Dark_Falcon
Sounds great, we use a couple of the Sprint 3G models and they are also good.
| 79 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:45:26pm |
re: #74 BryanS
Here's a good rebuttal to Krugman:
And keep in mind that "saving" involves raising a lot of taxes
i got no problem with raising taxes on folks whose lower taxes over the last nine years have significantly contributed to the pre-Obama deficits to pay for increased access to affordable health care so that I don't have to pick up the increased tab at the emergency room. Do you?.
| 80 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:45:43pm |
re: #78 Bagua
Sounds great, we use a couple of the Sprint 3G models and they are also good.
What municipal area do you live in? I can tell you if 4G is coming your way soon.
| 81 |
Irenicum Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:46:30pm |
re: #56 MandyManners
Hey, my "becoming a man" moment came about when I punched out a stupid kid's nose when he pushed my chair out from under me during lunch one too many time in Intermediate School. We never became friends, but he never bothered me again. I still cherish that moment! Stupid kid stuff can be VERY important.
| 82 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:47:00pm |
re: #76 reine.de.tout
No.
In fact, she's probably at lesser risk, because she's smarter than I was, and she is also very capable.
It what other people around her will do that I worry about more than anything else.
Plus, I worry by nature. It's just what I do.
Ah! You are a parent.
We are with you. All of us pray she will make wise choices with her friends.
| 83 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:48:01pm |
re: #79 austin_blue
i got no problem with raising taxes on folks whose lower taxes over the last nine years have significantly contributed to the pre-Obama deficits to pay for increased access to affordable health care so that I don't have to pick up the increased tab at the emergency room. Do you?.
I do. Higher taxes cripple the ability of the rich to invest and the top brackets pay enough of the tax burden already. I'd rather cut spending than increase it and a "public option" continues to strike me as ultimately an instrument of government control.
| 84 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:48:03pm |
re: #79 austin_blue
i got no problem with raising taxes on folks whose lower taxes over the last nine years have significantly contributed to the pre-Obama deficits to pay for increased access to affordable health care so that I don't have to pick up the increased tab at the emergency room. Do you?.
I have a problem with your grossly inaccurate representation of reality, yes...
| 85 |
Irenicum Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:48:21pm |
re: #61 austin_blue
Why is Rhode Island neither a road nor an island? Discuss.
| 86 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:50:05pm |
re: #79 austin_blue
i got no problem with raising taxes on folks whose lower taxes over the last nine years have significantly contributed to the pre-Obama deficits to pay for increased access to affordable health care so that I don't have to pick up the increased tab at the emergency room. Do you?.
Sure do. So we should spend a tonne more money on top of already having spent more than we should have to make up for not spending enough money on health care?
How about we just start by collecting sufficient taxes to pay for the debt we already cannot afford?
| 87 |
Irenicum Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:50:26pm |
re: #63 reine.de.tout
Oh the joys of parenting. If you raised her, she'll be fine.
| 88 |
bosforus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:50:33pm |
Onion: Tragedy Narrowly Averted at Clippers Game
Too far! TOO FAR!!
//
| 90 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:51:23pm |
re: #80 Dark_Falcon
Houston, L.V. NV, Boston MA, LA CA, Hamburg DE, for a start.
| 91 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:51:34pm |
re: #77 cliffster
No doubt about it. I won't go into the details of why I say that, because of the personal stakeholders present, but I worry all the time about what my 3-year-old girlkid is in for in a decade.
Reine and I were there in the late 70's, early 80's. It's not talked about much, but the incidence of date rape then was huge. It just wasn't talked about. Might want to rethink that position. You have no idea how bad it was.
| 92 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:52:31pm |
re: #83 Dark_Falcon
I do. Higher taxes cripple the ability of the rich to invest and the top brackets pay enough of the tax burden already. I'd rather cut spending than increase it and a "public option" continues to strike me as ultimately an instrument of government control.
Not only that, but the lower taxes are what got us out of the recession that Bush got handed to him by the Clinton administration.
| 93 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:54:41pm |
re: #92 cliffster
Not only that, but the lower taxes are what got us out of the recession that Bush got handed to him by the Clinton administration.
And Bush's problem was profligate spending. We need Repubs in control of the House and Senate with a Dem in the white house. That way, the Repubs can revert to form and cut spending and the Dem can veto the crap the extreme right comes up with.
| 94 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:54:50pm |
re: #91 austin_blue
Reine and I were there in the late 70's, early 80's. It's not talked about much, but the incidence of date rape then was huge. It just wasn't talked about. Might want to rethink that position. You have no idea how bad it was.
Yeah, I know people have worried for their daughters since the dawn of civilization. Just the words "Date Rape" make me shudder. It didn't 5 years ago, before I had a daughter. It should have, but I guess we all live in our own worlds.
I appreciate the optimistic words that things are actually better for young girls these days.
| 95 |
Irenicum Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:55:06pm |
re: #76 reine.de.tout
Part of the job description. It's certainly a good evolutionary trait.
| 96 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:56:51pm |
re: #93 BryanS
And Bush's problem was profligate spending. We need Repubs in control of the House and Senate with a Dem in the white house. That way, the Repubs can revert to form and cut spending and the Dem can veto the crap the extreme right comes up with.
Agreed 100% on the ridiculous spending. Not one veto until Democrats took control of Congress. Please. But I don't buy that about it being R's or D's in Congress or WH. We need Washington to spend less. And I mean a lot less. Less by a factor of 100.
| 97 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:57:52pm |
re: #91 austin_blue
Reine and I were there in the late 70's, early 80's. It's not talked about much, but the incidence of date rape then was huge. It just wasn't talked about. Might want to rethink that position. You have no idea how bad it was.
Correct. And part of the problem was that it was NOT talked about.
re: #94 cliffster
Yeah, I know people have worried for their daughters since the dawn of civilization. Just the words "Date Rape" make me shudder. It didn't 5 years ago, before I had a daughter. It should have, but I guess we all live in our own worlds.
I appreciate the optimistic words that things are actually better for young girls these days.
I think they are; for the reason stated above - things are known and discussed now that were not talked about then. The more girls know, the more prepared they are to deal with situations that come up.
| 99 |
lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:58:23pm |
oh man that is so horrible that all those people died. Do you think they will have an investigation into what happened. I think we should hold the engineers responsible, this is clearly a design issue with the structure.
| 100 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:58:41pm |
re: #98 mich-again
"Thank God they all died."
Bwahaha.
You are so going to hell for that.
Along with me.
And Varek Raith.
| 101 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:59:33pm |
re: #96 cliffster
Agreed 100% on the ridiculous spending. Not one veto until Democrats took control of Congress. Please. But I don't buy that about it being R's or D's in Congress or WH. We need Washington to spend less. And I mean a lot less. Less by a factor of 100.
Split government is the best recipe for that. Worst case scenario is that nothing gets done. Problem is that politicians are, well, politicians. The Republicans gave out goodies like Robin Hood at a candy store.
The spending issue is why Perot, as batty as he was, garnered the support he did.
| 102 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 8:59:58pm |
re: #100 reine.de.tout
You are so going to hell for that.
Along with me.
And Varek Raith.
I just got home from work... who died?
| 103 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:00:04pm |
re: #91 austin_blue
Reine and I were there in the late 70's, early 80's. It's not talked about much, but the incidence of date rape then was huge. It just wasn't talked about. Might want to rethink that position. You have no idea how bad it was.
Ain't that the truth. But it's still a pretty mean world out there. Got reminded of that this week.
| 104 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:00:37pm |
re: #90 Bagua
Houston, L.V. NV, Boston MA, LA CA, Hamburg DE, for a start.
It's already online in LV. None of the other markets yet (Houston is the biggest market in Texas so it'll be launching there later). I'll keep you posted.
| 105 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:01:22pm |
re: #101 BryanS
Worst case scenario is that nothing gets done.
I'm in favor of Washington not doing things.
| 106 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:01:52pm |
re: #83 Dark_Falcon
I do. Higher taxes cripple the ability of the rich to invest and the top brackets pay enough of the tax burden already. I'd rather cut spending than increase it and a "public option" continues to strike me as ultimately an instrument of government control.
DF, sorry to be harsh, but this is a bullshit argument. The bill does not call for raising taxes on small businesses (In fact, there are significant tax breaks for small businesses), but on personal income. Folks making more than $250 large in personal income get an increase, not their businesses. Big difference.
| 107 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:02:22pm |
| 108 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:02:32pm |
re: #84 cliffster
I have a problem with your grossly inaccurate representation of reality, yes...
Why?
| 109 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:02:50pm |
re: #105 cliffster
I'm in favor of Washington not doing things.
I'd like one simple reform to be enacted--all legislation must be verbally read into the record before voting on it.
| 110 |
lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:02:51pm |
Wow smashing pumpkins singer goes into conspiracy mode on the H1N1 [Link: www.everythingfromheretothere.com...] he even says
"I for one will not be taking the vaccine. I do not trust those who make the vaccines, or the apperatus behind it all to push it on us thru fear."
| 111 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:03:55pm |
re: #104 Dark_Falcon
It's already online in LV. None of the other markets yet (Houston is the biggest market in Texas so it'll be launching there later). I'll keep you posted.
What are you describing when you say "4G"? I mean - is it just faster shit?
| 112 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:03:57pm |
re: #106 austin_blue
DF, sorry to be harsh, but this is a bullshit argument. The bill does not call for raising taxes on small businesses (In fact, there are significant tax breaks for small businesses), but on personal income. Folks making more than $250 large in personal income get an increase, not their businesses. Big difference.
I still say it hurts investment and it makes the tax code too top heavy. I don't like "tax the rich" plans, as they discourage wealth creation and encourage redistributionist thinking.
| 113 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:04:43pm |
re: #104 Dark_Falcon
It's already online in LV. None of the other markets yet (Houston is the biggest market in Texas so it'll be launching there later). I'll keep you posted.
Cheers.
| 114 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:05:01pm |
re: #94 cliffster
Yeah, I know people have worried for their daughters since the dawn of civilization. Just the words "Date Rape" make me shudder. It didn't 5 years ago, before I had a daughter. It should have, but I guess we all live in our own worlds.
I appreciate the optimistic words that things are actually better for young girls these days.
In a lot of ways, I think they are.
Not totally linked, but thinking along these lines, is anyone else startled when they read fiction from the fifties and sixties how intensely hostile toward women it is? The female characters are flimsy, neurotic, needy, constantly being put in their place by the men around them.
It strikes me because it's not something I find in earlier fiction, certainly not the Victorians, or stuff from the twenties. It stands out to me. Anyone else find that?
| 115 |
mich-again Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:05:04pm |
re: #100 reine.de.tout
You are so going to hell for that.
Along with me.
And Varek Raith.
Way back in the day me and my buddy got on TV in a crowd scene at a Monday Night Football game in the Silverdome with the Lions getting smoked by the Oakland Raiders. We were wearing shopping bags over our heads thats how bad that team was. If the Silverdome's roof had fallen on us that night it would have been better than watching the game.
| 116 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:05:58pm |
re: #110 lrsshadow
Wow smashing pumpkins singer goes into conspiracy mode on the H1N1 [Link: www.everythingfromheretothere.com...] he even says
"I for one will not be taking the vaccine. I do not trust those who make the vaccines, or the apperatus behind it all to push it on us thru fear."
Billy Corgan is a great singer but like many celebs, he knows very little about science. He seems to have drunk fellow Chicago native Jenny McCarthy's Kool Aid.
| 117 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:06:11pm |
re: #86 BryanS
Sure do. So we should spend a tonne more money on top of already having spent more than we should have to make up for not spending enough money on health care?
How about we just start by collecting sufficient taxes to pay for the debt we already cannot afford?
Because your costs for the uninsured (with no cost controls and buggered by emergency room visits, whose costs you pick up as a local taxpayer) have blown the system apart. You are paying for these costs *now*. They could be significantly reduced.
| 118 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:06:33pm |
re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist
Ain't that the truth. But it's still a pretty mean world out there. Got reminded of that this week.
Oh, golly! You're so right. I feel so badly for that poor girl. I just can't imagine. . .
| 119 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:07:22pm |
re: #106 austin_blue
DF, sorry to be harsh, but this is a bullshit argument. The bill does not call for raising taxes on small businesses (In fact, there are significant tax breaks for small businesses), but on personal income. Folks making more than $250 large in personal income get an increase, not their businesses. Big difference.
Heads up, many of the HNW individuals I know are already talking about reducing their US based investments. Capital is flowing offshore at an alarming rate. The tax rates rise, but the the governments net income will go down.
| 120 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:07:39pm |
re: #106 austin_blue
DF, sorry to be harsh, but this is a bullshit argument. The bill does not call for raising taxes on small businesses (In fact, there are significant tax breaks for small businesses), but on personal income. Folks making more than $250 large in personal income get an increase, not their businesses. Big difference.
The taxes start phasing in at payrolls of $500k. As someone running a small business myself, $500k isn't much of a payroll. The House bill would make it less expensive to drop health insurance than increasing the amount of coverage mandated for many businesses--note that it mandates 75% of all health costs covered by employers. In my company, payrolls are fairly high compared to the average wage earner, but if you were running say a service business like a restaurant, it would be less expensive to pay the payroll penalty and force your employees into the "public option" than it would be to pick up 75% of all health insurance costs.
| 121 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:08:29pm |
re: #111 cliffster
What are you describing when you say "4G"? I mean - is it just faster shit?
The new tech is called WIMAX. It has download speeds averaging 3-6 Mbps. It is also is more secure than 3G. You can also use it will a pair of routers than we sell and have multiple people hook up onto it.
| 122 |
mich-again Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:08:33pm |
My oldest son turns 18 today but he wasn't born yet, not till just about noon. A sophomore in College in Electrical Engineering on a free ride. Way smarter than I ever was. It snowed here the day he was born.
| 123 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:09:01pm |
re: #115 mich-again
Way back in the day me and my buddy got on TV in a crowd scene at a Monday Night Football game in the Silverdome with the Lions getting smoked by the Oakland Raiders. We were wearing shopping bags over our heads thats how bad that team was. If the Silverdome's roof had fallen on us that night it would have been better than watching the game.
Sort of like the New Orleans Ain'ts?
| 125 |
Irenicum Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:09:06pm |
re: #105 cliffster
Divided government is one of the best things our founders devised. They knew that a government that was run by one political interest was inherently dangerous. Out whole structure of government was to mitigate against that. Thank God for Madison!
| 126 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:09:34pm |
re: #106 austin_blue
DF, sorry to be harsh, but this is a bullshit argument. The bill does not call for raising taxes on small businesses (In fact, there are significant tax breaks for small businesses), but on personal income. Folks making more than $250 large in personal income get an increase, not their businesses. Big difference.
Does calling something a "bullshit argument" add to the conversation?
Rich people make investments. They hire people. They buy expensive shit, which employs people. They go to expensive places, which employs people. They don't just put giant piles of cash under their pillows to sleep on. Taxing the rich is a very narrow-minded way of accomplishing anything.
| 127 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:10:02pm |
re: #106 austin_blue
DF, sorry to be harsh, but this is a bullshit argument. The bill does not call for raising taxes on small businesses (In fact, there are significant tax breaks for small businesses), but on personal income. Folks making more than $250 large in personal income get an increase, not their businesses. Big difference.
Have your read Sec 512? Do that and get back to us.
| 128 |
mich-again Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:10:07pm |
| 129 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:10:29pm |
| 130 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:10:47pm |
re: #117 austin_blue
Because your costs for the uninsured (with no cost controls and buggered by emergency room visits, whose costs you pick up as a local taxpayer) have blown the system apart. You are paying for these costs *now*. They could be significantly reduced.
I would much prefer if we could stop being buggered by the emergency room visits of illegal aliens and those with no intention of making payment. paying for their abuses by government taxation is a recipe for disaster.
| 131 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:11:23pm |
| 132 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:11:50pm |
re: #102 Walter L. Newton
I just got home from work... who died?
Onion news clip. See above.
On a related note, some years ago, when Cindy Sheehan had first set up camp outside the Bush place in Texas, I was walking with my mother one day when I turned to say something and noticed that she had stopped. She was staring at a newsstand with an expression I can only describe as frozen horror.
I looked at the paper. Headline read: "President Complains: 'Vacation Ruined By Stupid Dead Soldier'". It was, of course, the Onion. She realized that as I did, and sort of choked.
They're funny as hell, but occasionally...well. Occasionally they push lines that shouldn't get pushed. But they're so damn funny I end up forgiving them.
| 133 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:12:58pm |
re: #96 cliffster
Agreed 100% on the ridiculous spending. Not one veto until Democrats took control of Congress. Please. But I don't buy that about it being R's or D's in Congress or WH. We need Washington to spend less. And I mean a lot less. Less by a factor of 100.
Easy, then. Complete retreat from Iraq and Afghanistan. There's a quick $850 billion a year.
[Link: www.infoplease.com...]
Oh, and that is before any surge in the 'stan.
Is that your solution?
| 134 |
lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:13:06pm |
re: #120 BryanS
I also wonder what kind of mechanism they are going to use in the Health Care bill to prevent negative impact to the Unions. My guess is they will be exempt from many requirements to prevent them from going bankrupt. There is no way the unions can afford significant increases in health care insurance costs.
| 135 |
mich-again Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:13:19pm |
re: #132 SanFranciscoZionist
I would rather watch the fake news on The Onion than the real news. Any day.
| 136 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:13:26pm |
re: #130 Bagua
I would much prefer if we could stop being buggered by the emergency room visits of illegal aliens and those with no intention of making payment. paying for their abuses by government taxation is a recipe for disaster.
What option do you see?
| 137 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:14:08pm |
re: #135 mich-again
I would rather watch the fake news on The Onion than the real news. Any day.
That was fake? Shit, missed the joke again. Anyway, I was watching an Abbot and Costello movie the other day... I saw dead people.
| 138 |
Sharmuta Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:14:09pm |
re: #122 mich-again
My oldest son turns 18 today but he wasn't born yet, not till just about noon. A sophomore in College in Electrical Engineering on a free ride. Way smarter than I ever was. It snowed here the day he was born.
Aww- Happy Birthday Mich Jr! Don't forget to register with Selective Service.
| 139 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:14:33pm |
re: #124 lrsshadow
would appear so.
Still, at least with Billy Corgan he's given us some great music:
| 140 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:14:57pm |
re: #138 Sharmuta
Aww- Happy Birthday Mich Jr! Don't forget to register with Selective Service.
And register to vote!
| 141 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:14:58pm |
Dr. Pelosi was working in the lab late one night
When her eyes beheld an eerie sight
For the monster from the slab began to rise
And suddenly to her delight
We did the Tax
We did the Healthcare Tax
The Healthcare Tax!
It was a Congressional smash
We did the Tax!
| 142 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:15:01pm |
re: #135 mich-again
I would rather watch the fake news on The Onion than the real news. Any day.
One of my favorites was the one where the nation lined up to dunk Cheney.
And the one about the guy who was released from the zoo, after being identified as a giraffe for five years.
And the one where the Blue Angels held open tryouts.
| 143 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:15:12pm |
re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist
What option do you see?
Drastically reduce fraud and crime in our health care industry through the criminal justice system with strong federal support.
| 144 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:16:02pm |
re: #143 Bagua
Drastically reduce fraud and crime in our health care industry through the criminal justice system with strong federal support.
OK--but what are we going to do about emergency room visits?
| 145 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:16:11pm |
re: #133 austin_blue
Easy, then. Complete retreat from Iraq and Afghanistan. There's a quick $850 billion a year.
[Link: www.infoplease.com...]
Oh, and that is before any surge in the 'stan.
Is that your solution?
No, that's an even worse idea. That one would result in a surge in Radical Islam. We have to stay in those places or we'll suffer at home and abroad.
| 146 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:17:13pm |
re: #144 SanFranciscoZionist
OK--but what are we going to do about emergency room visits?
I was talking about ER visits. Stop the fraud and our health care system will no longer be in crisis.
| 147 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:17:31pm |
re: #126 cliffster
Rich people make investments. They hire people. They buy expensive shit, which employs people. They go to expensive places, which employs people. They don't just put giant piles of cash under their pillows to sleep on.
And if they did, someone else would HIRE PEOPLE to make pillows with pockets!
| 148 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:17:40pm |
re: #146 Bagua
I was talking about ER visits. Stop the fraud and our health care system will no longer be in crisis.
So, don't treat people who can't pay?
| 149 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:17:41pm |
re: #141 SteveC
Dr. Pelosi was working in the lab late one night
When her eyes beheld an eerie sight
For the monster from the slab began to rise
And suddenly to her delightWe did the Tax
We did the Healthcare Tax
The Healthcare Tax!
It was a Congressional smash
We did the Tax!
I thought that Pelosi was one of the monsters. I thought she was the Bride of Frankenstein.
| 150 |
Irenicum Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:17:44pm |
re: #112 Dark_Falcon
Not to be too snarky, but we live in an era of the most "flat" tax code in generations. By today's standards, Ike would be considered a raving Troskyite, The tax code had the highest wage earners paying 90% in taxes, and mind you, this was the "idyllic" 50's that we so often hearken back to. To ask that the highest echelons of society pay a higher percentage of their income towards the common good is not to be socialist, but to be responsible. But I say this as a confirmed advocate of the graduated income tax. And I know that many here deeply disagree with that.
| 151 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:18:34pm |
re: #150 Irenicum
Not to be too snarky, but we live in an era of the most "flat" tax code in generations. By today's standards, Ike would be considered a raving Troskyite, The tax code had the highest wage earners paying 90% in taxes, and mind you, this was the "idyllic" 50's that we so often hearken back to. To ask that the highest echelons of society pay a higher percentage of their income towards the common good is not to be socialist, but to be responsible. But I say this as a confirmed advocate of the graduated income tax. And I know that many here deeply disagree with that.
Ahh, I just see taxing the rich the way Willie Sutton saw robbing banks.
/
| 152 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:18:59pm |
re: #112 Dark_Falcon
I still say it hurts investment and it makes the tax code too top heavy. I don't like "tax the rich" plans, as they discourage wealth creation and encourage redistributionist thinking.
Well, some might say that those making more than $250/year are creating wealth quite nicely, thank you. And marginal tax rates are on incomes *greater* than whatever the level set. Keep in mind that when Nixon was the Prez, the top marginal tax rate was 70%. And when the US was the world beater economically in the 50's the top rate was 91%.
[Link: www.ntu.org...]
| 153 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:19:24pm |
re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist
So, don't treat people who can't pay?
No, stop allowing illegal aliens to defraud our system. Remove their lips from our teat. Problem solved, there would be enough residual savings to help those who truly can't pay.
| 154 |
mich-again Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:19:30pm |
If you want to make a service more available, it has to increase in supply. And I'm guessing quite a bit of what doctors currently do could be done by trained technicians instead of full fledged doctors, leaving the real doctors to focus on patients that need their expert care. The government could make health care more affordable and available right now simply by relaxing some restrictions in regard to treating patients with simple to diagnose health problems.
| 155 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:19:34pm |
re: #149 Dark_Falcon
I thought that Pelosi was one of the monsters. I thought she was the Bride of Frankenstein.
Somebody's got to keep the all the little demons and imps in line!
| 156 |
lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:20:34pm |
re: #133 austin_blue
Easy, then. Complete retreat from Iraq and Afghanistan. There's a quick $850 billion a year.
[Link: www.infoplease.com...]
Oh, and that is before any surge in the 'stan.
Is that your solution?
"For the 2009 fiscal year, the base budget of the Department of Defense rose to $518.3 billion. Adding emergency discretionary spending, supplemental spending, and stimulus spending brings the sum to $651.2 billion" that is for the entire federal defense budget. I guess your figures are way off on how much we spend in Iraq and Afghanistan.
As they would say on the commercial "keeping nukes out of the hands of terrorists, priceless"
[Link: opencrs.com...]
[Link: www.gpoaccess.gov...]
| 157 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:20:46pm |
re: #153 Bagua
No, stop allowing illegal aliens to defraud our system. Remove their lips from our teat. Problem solved, there would be enough residual savings to help those who truly can't pay.
I don't know about the money, I hear wildly different figures, but what do you propose we do with an illegal alien who's injured or sick? Deport the guy while he bleeds to death?
| 158 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:21:06pm |
re: #133 austin_blue
Easy, then. Complete retreat from Iraq and Afghanistan. There's a quick $850 billion a year.
[Link: www.infoplease.com...]
Oh, and that is before any surge in the 'stan.
Is that your solution?
Interesting numbers. I'm sure they are bullet-proof. Either way, fighting wars is one of the few things the federal government does well. So yes, no matter what you think of us being there to begin with, we are there, and we need to come home with a resounding victory. No choice.
| 159 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:21:06pm |
re: #145 Dark_Falcon
No, that's an even worse idea. That one would result in a surge in Radical Islam. We have to stay in those places or we'll suffer at home and abroad.
Then how are you going to pay for it? Continue to borrow from the Chinese? What if they stop buying our debt? C'mon, man, think!
| 160 |
mich-again Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:22:03pm |
re: #138 Sharmuta
Aww- Happy Birthday Mich Jr! Don't forget to register with Selective Service.
Good point. Thanks for reminding me of that.
| 161 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:22:33pm |
re: #117 austin_blue
Because your costs for the uninsured (with no cost controls and buggered by emergency room visits, whose costs you pick up as a local taxpayer) have blown the system apart. You are paying for these costs *now*. They could be significantly reduced.
We could reduce costs by allowing competition across state borders. How come the only "competition" the Dems want to allow is from the government? Why not allow many competitors instead of only one? Explain to my why Dems are opposed to allowing interstate commerce to take place for health insurance?
Why not push and promote HSAs more that cover catastrophic care and allow saving for routine care? Comprehensive coverage on health insurance has taken the individual spending decision out of the market. How come optional, cosmetic procedures like laser eye surgery continue to drop in price? Maybe because individual spending decisions allow market forces to push prices down over time--a striking difference from care that is covered by health insurance policies. I don't buy comprehensive car insurance because I do not want to pay a markup on the general repair costs of my vehicle. I'd like to do that with my health care as well.
What about tort reform--not just the legal costs, but the unnecessary procedures done to avoid lawsuits drives up costs significantly as well.
Your argument is valid about emergency room care being a significant driver on costs, but the solution is not to replace the current system with a government run one. It is silly to pay for the poor's health care at the most expensive delivery point. Many eligible for government programs do not participate in them. The solution it would seem would be to make the poor visit a physicians office rather than an emergency room for primary care. We'd still be paying for it, but it would be a fraction of the cost.
| 162 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:22:36pm |
re: #133 austin_blue
Easy, then. Complete retreat from Iraq and Afghanistan. There's a quick $850 billion a year.
Insanity.
Even Obama isn't that stupid.
| 163 |
Sharmuta Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:23:05pm |
re: #160 mich-again
I've always thought you were pretty cool, Mich, so if I helped out your kid by reminding you- that's great. :)
| 164 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:23:33pm |
re: #153 Bagua
No, stop allowing illegal aliens to defraud our system. Remove their lips from our teat. Problem solved, there would be enough residual savings to help those who truly can't pay.
Problem solved? Are you that removed from reality? The working poor, who are *not* illegals, have no insurance at work. There are millions of them.
| 165 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:24:13pm |
re: #159 austin_blue
C'mon, man, think!
Why do you think that being condescending adds to your point?
| 166 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:25:12pm |
re: #134 lrsshadow
I also wonder what kind of mechanism they are going to use in the Health Care bill to prevent negative impact to the Unions. My guess is they will be exempt from many requirements to prevent them from going bankrupt. There is no way the unions can afford significant increases in health care insurance costs.
Agreed. The health care bill is another bailout for the unions.
| 167 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:25:38pm |
re: #157 SanFranciscoZionist
I don't know about the money, I hear wildly different figures, but what do you propose we do with an illegal alien who's injured or sick? Deport the guy while he bleeds to death?
Of course not, we would still render emergency medical care as we do for all criminals in custody. The key is to eliminate the fraud which is an epidemic at the moment. Knowing that identity must be verified and the free ride is over would stop cold all the abuse of our ER for non emergency medicine, which is the bulk of the wasted money.
Try walking out of a restaurant with a $40 tab and refuse to give pay or even identify yourself. You will end up speaking to the Police. But go into any ER with non-emergency or emergency symptoms, and you can easily defraud them and walk out without a problem.
| 168 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:25:44pm |
Yeah lets shut down those 2 illegal wars we are fighting. Not doing any good anyway.
Oops!
We just lost 4 million defense related jobs!
We need more stimulus now!
/morons
| 169 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:25:48pm |
re: #156 lrsshadow
"For the 2009 fiscal year, the base budget of the Department of Defense rose to $518.3 billion. Adding emergency discretionary spending, supplemental spending, and stimulus spending brings the sum to $651.2 billion" that is for the entire federal defense budget. I guess your figures are way off on how much we spend in Iraq and Afghanistan.
As they would say on the commercial "keeping nukes out of the hands of terrorists, priceless"
[Link: opencrs.com...]
[Link: www.gpoaccess.gov...]
That would be true if the war funding wasn't off-budget. Sorry, dude, epic fail.
| 170 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:26:36pm |
re: #165 cliffster
Why do you think that being condescending adds to your point?
Not condescending. Pleading.
| 171 |
Irenicum Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:26:44pm |
re: #137 Walter L. Newton
I grew up on those movies. I watched all of them, multiple times. I love buddy comedies.
| 172 |
Walter L. Newton Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:27:02pm |
re: #164 austin_blue
"Are you that removed from reality?"
"C'mon, man, think!"
I have an idea. Stop putting a snarky little put down in each one of your comments. It's not needed.
| 173 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:27:27pm |
re: #158 cliffster
Interesting numbers. I'm sure they are bullet-proof. Either way, fighting wars is one of the few things the federal government does well. So yes, no matter what you think of us being there to begin with, we are there, and we need to come home with a resounding victory. No choice.
Good. Suck it up and open your wallet.
| 174 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:27:40pm |
re: #150 Irenicum
Not to be too snarky, but we live in an era of the most "flat" tax code in generations. By today's standards, Ike would be considered a raving Troskyite, The tax code had the highest wage earners paying 90% in taxes, and mind you, this was the "idyllic" 50's that we so often hearken back to. To ask that the highest echelons of society pay a higher percentage of their income towards the common good is not to be socialist, but to be responsible. But I say this as a confirmed advocate of the graduated income tax. And I know that many here deeply disagree with that.
And Kennedy cut those tax rates--and government revenues went up. What a capitalist pig, that Kennedy. /snark
| 175 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:27:50pm |
re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist
Ahh, I just see taxing the rich the way Willie Sutton saw robbing banks.
/
Congress wants tax on medical devices
They even want to tax bedpans and tongue depressors (Next to last paragraph)
| 176 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:28:03pm |
re: #164 austin_blue
Problem solved? Are you that removed from reality? The working poor, who are *not* illegals, have no insurance at work. There are millions of them.
Nonsense, a drastic reduction in the defrauding of our hospitals by illegal aliens would save enough money to help the working poor who are citizens. The problem is fraud, not poverty.
| 177 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:28:06pm |
re: #161 BryanS
We could reduce costs by allowing competition across state borders. How come the only "competition" the Dems want to allow is from the government? Why not allow many competitors instead of only one? Explain to my why Dems are opposed to allowing interstate commerce to take place for health insurance?
.
Because all the insurance companies would then flock to the state with the most leinient regulation, as many banks and corporations now do with Connecticut and Delaware. It would make it impossible for states to pass their own insurance regulations because all the insurance companies would end up in only a few states.
| 178 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:28:10pm |
re: #167 Bagua
Of course not, we would still render emergency medical care as we do for all criminals in custody. The key is to eliminate the fraud which is an epidemic at the moment. Knowing that identity must be verified and the free ride is over would stop cold all the abuse of our ER for non emergency medicine, which is the bulk of the wasted money.
Try walking out of a restaurant with a $40 tab and refuse to give pay or even identify yourself. You will end up speaking to the Police. But go into any ER with non-emergency or emergency symptoms, and you can easily defraud them and walk out without a problem.
Why do people go to the ER for non-emergency medicine? Do you feel that the bulk of these people have access to other health care, and are deliberately defrauding hospitals?
| 179 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:29:14pm |
re: #150 Irenicum
Not to be too snarky, but we live in an era of the most "flat" tax code in generations. By today's standards, Ike would be considered a raving Troskyite, The tax code had the highest wage earners paying 90% in taxes, and mind you, this was the "idyllic" 50's that we so often hearken back to. To ask that the highest echelons of society pay a higher percentage of their income towards the common good is not to be socialist, but to be responsible. But I say this as a confirmed advocate of the graduated income tax. And I know that many here deeply disagree with that.
Apparently!
| 180 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:29:27pm |
re: #152 austin_blue
Well, some might say that those making more than $250/year are creating wealth quite nicely, thank you. And marginal tax rates are on incomes *greater* than whatever the level set. Keep in mind that when Nixon was the Prez, the top marginal tax rate was 70%. And when the US was the world beater economically in the 50's the top rate was 91%.
[Link: www.ntu.org...]
So $250k is the point at which 'enough is enough', huh?
| 181 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:29:38pm |
re: #167 Bagua
Of course not, we would still render emergency medical care as we do for all criminals in custody. The key is to eliminate the fraud which is an epidemic at the moment. Knowing that identity must be verified and the free ride is over would stop cold all the abuse of our ER for non emergency medicine, which is the bulk of the wasted money.
Try walking out of a restaurant with a $40 tab and refuse to give pay or even identify yourself. You will end up speaking to the Police. But go into any ER with non-emergency or emergency symptoms, and you can easily defraud them and walk out without a problem.
The only reason people go to the ER with non-emergency conditions is because they don't have health insurance in the first place and the ER can't turn them away.
| 182 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:29:59pm |
re: #176 Bagua
Nonsense, a drastic reduction in the defrauding of our hospitals by illegal aliens would save enough money to help the working poor who are citizens. The problem is fraud, not poverty.
I'm not buying it yet. Links and figures? I need to read more before evaluating.
| 183 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:30:46pm |
re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist
Why do people go to the ER for non-emergency medicine? Do you feel that the bulk of these people have access to other health care, and are deliberately defrauding hospitals?
They go to the ER because there are no questions asked and they know they can get free medical care and never see a bill. Yes they are deliberately defrauding our hospitals on a massive level.
| 184 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:32:48pm |
re: #183 Bagua
They go to the ER because there are no questions asked and they know they can get free medical care and never see a bill. Yes they are deliberately defrauding our hospitals on a massive level.
I don't buy it, especially the part where it's all illegal immigrants doing it. Link and figures?
| 185 |
Claire Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:33:09pm |
Why am I getting spyware warnings coming into LGF starting today? What do the little buggers want to know and should I trust or block???
| 186 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:33:47pm |
re: #164 austin_blue
Problem solved? Are you that removed from reality? The working poor, who are *not* illegals, have no insurance at work. There are millions of them.
EMTLA (Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act) says if you show up at an Emergency Room needing care or in active labor, you are served without regard to cost. That covers the working poor. I am not sure what kind of assistance to provide Illegal Aliens, but their Illegal status would not grant them EMTLA rights.
HOW we get there, I have no idea. But you can't just leave a sick or injured Illegal by the curb. That's inhumane.
| 187 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:33:53pm |
re: #161 BryanS
We could reduce costs by allowing competition across state borders. How come the only "competition" the Dems want to allow is from the government? Why not allow many competitors instead of only one? Explain to my why Dems are opposed to allowing interstate commerce to take place for health insurance?
Why not push and promote HSAs more that cover catastrophic care and allow saving for routine care? Comprehensive coverage on health insurance has taken the individual spending decision out of the market. How come optional, cosmetic procedures like laser eye surgery continue to drop in price? Maybe because individual spending decisions allow market forces to push prices down over time--a striking difference from care that is covered by health insurance policies. I don't buy comprehensive car insurance because I do not want to pay a markup on the general repair costs of my vehicle. I'd like to do that with my health care as well.
What about tort reform--not just the legal costs, but the unnecessary procedures done to avoid lawsuits drives up costs significantly as well.
Your argument is valid about emergency room care being a significant driver on costs, but the solution is not to replace the current system with a government run one. It is silly to pay for the poor's health care at the most expensive delivery point. Many eligible for government programs do not participate in them. The solution it would seem would be to make the poor visit a physicians office rather than an emergency room for primary care. We'd still be paying for it, but it would be a fraction of the cost.
Oh, dear. Yes you could do that. All you would have to do is drive across several state lines with your compound fractured leg to get a better deal. That would certainly be helpful.
| 188 |
lastlaugh Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:33:55pm |
re: #185 Claire
Why am I getting spyware warnings coming into LGF starting today? What do the little buggers want to know and should I trust or block???
I've never gotten these with Firefox 3.5.4.
| 189 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:34:24pm |
re: #177 Conservative Moonbat
Because all the insurance companies would then flock to the state with the most leinient regulation, as many banks and corporations now do with Connecticut and Delaware. It would make it impossible for states to pass their own insurance regulations because all the insurance companies would end up in only a few states.
Well, one thing the Feds are entitled to regulate is interstate commerce. It may mean more uniform health care regulation in the country as a whole, and less control by the states, but this was PRECISELY the reason the founders made the federal government the regulator of interstate commerce. They wanted to prevent intrastate fiefdoms and encourage INTERstate commerce. It is appalling that the federal government has opted to forbid interstate commerce in health care.
| 190 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:34:57pm |
Welfare recipients and those taking advantage of "free health care" should be made to pee in a cup. Drugs present? Sorry. Fuck you. I work hard for my money. Sometimes I have to pee in a cup to keep my high paying job.
You want free shit - pee in a cup.
| 191 |
lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:34:58pm |
re: #161 BryanS
Don't you get it they don't want good reform, they want controlling reform. This is a problem with political types, they love power and control.
| 192 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:36:07pm |
re: #173 austin_blue
Good. Suck it up and open your wallet.
Unlike Health care, Social Security, Federal unemployment compensation, etc.. spending for a national defense is a Constitutional mandate. So everyone even the working poor should provide for the soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who stand a post and keep us free. Like they say freedom is not free, but worth the cost.
| 193 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:36:40pm |
re: #183 Bagua
They go to the ER because there are no questions asked and they know they can get free medical care and never see a bill. Yes they are deliberately defrauding our hospitals on a massive level.
Agreed. I think that one thing that should be required is that people showing up at the emergency room should not be allowed to leave the hospital until their identity can be verified. If said check turns up that they are here illegally, then they should be detained and turned over to ICE for deportation.
| 194 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:36:58pm |
re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist
Why do people go to the ER for non-emergency medicine? Do you feel that the bulk of these people have access to other health care, and are deliberately defrauding hospitals?
They go to the ER for the cold or flu because they do not have health insurance. The poor should be required to go to a primary care physician and not be entitled to ER care unless it is an immediate health emergency. If there is a need for a social program, that is the need.
| 195 |
lastlaugh Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:37:06pm |
re: #189 BryanS
Well, one thing the Feds are entitled to regulate is interstate commerce. It may mean more uniform health care regulation in the country as a whole, and less control by the states, but this was PRECISELY the reason the founders made the federal government the regulator of interstate commerce. They wanted to prevent intrastate fiefdoms and encourage INTERstate commerce. It is appalling that the federal government has opted to forbid interstate commerce in health care.
The endgame would be would be federal regulation, and federal guarantees of insurance companies (ala FDIC). Probably the regulation would reflect that of stricter states, and voila a larger federal government.
| 196 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:37:09pm |
re: #173 austin_blue
Good. Suck it up and open your wallet.
It's a valid point. I think the numbers are inflated, although I don't have links at the moment. And even if they aren't, it'd doing what the government is supposed to do.
| 197 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:37:52pm |
re: #176 Bagua
Nonsense, a drastic reduction in the defrauding of our hospitals by illegal aliens would save enough money to help the working poor who are citizens. The problem is fraud, not poverty.
Ah. And you feel that would free up enough money to pay the uninsured?
And it's not necessarily poverty, in large part. It's folks in the doughnut hole who have jobs where their employer doesn't offer health insurance and who can't afford to buy it privately. There but for the grace of God are you.
| 198 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:38:07pm |
re: #190 Racer X
Welfare recipients and those taking advantage of "free health care" should be made to pee in a cup. Drugs present? Sorry. Fuck you. I work hard for my money. Sometimes I have to pee in a cup to keep my high paying job.
You want free shit - pee in a cup.
1 million updings. I have to pee in a cup for the luxury of paying for my families health insurance as well as all of the freeloaders.
| 199 |
lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:38:23pm |
re: #177 Conservative Moonbat
Because all the insurance companies would then flock to the state with the most leinient regulation, as many banks and corporations now do with Connecticut and Delaware. It would make it impossible for states to pass their own insurance regulations because all the insurance companies would end up in only a few states.
Oh like they do with car insurance right... opps the car insurance I bought from a Georgia company meets the Minnesota requirements. I guess interstate insurance would not allow for a company to do as you claim.
| 200 |
mich-again Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:38:27pm |
re: #163 Sharmuta
The kid just came to tell me that Alice in Chains was going to perform on Conan so we watched them play Check My Brain. Excellent. When AIC Dirt first came out when the same kid was maybe 2 or 3, I remember getting in hot water with the wife when the kid told her the music in dad's car gave him fire on the brain. Probably talking about Damn that River or Angry Chair.
| 201 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:38:54pm |
re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist
Why do people go to the ER for non-emergency medicine? Do you feel that the bulk of these people have access to other health care, and are deliberately defrauding hospitals?
May not know any better.
Delivered via ambulance.
Faster service (keep dreamin'!)
Generational - mom and dad always went to the ER, that's the way to do it.
No payment questions asked. EMTLA allows a hospital to refuse treatment in a non emergency, but the rules are so convoluted that a lot of hospitals play it safe and take everyone who presents. (In other words, Fraud)
| 202 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:38:58pm |
re: #194 BryanS
They go to the ER for the cold or flu because they do not have health insurance. The poor should be required to go to a primary care physician and not be entitled to ER care unless it is an immediate health emergency. If there is a need for a social program, that is the need.
And if they can't afford to go to a primary care physician?
| 203 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:39:14pm |
re: #187 austin_blue
Oh, dear. Yes you could do that. All you would have to do is drive across several state lines with your compound fractured leg to get a better deal. That would certainly be helpful.
Uhm...don't be deliberately obtuse. Insurance companies are forbidden from offering insurance products across state lines. That is why the market is so segmented into so few providers in each state.
| 204 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:39:16pm |
re: #194 BryanS
They go to the ER for the cold or flu because they do not have health insurance. The poor should be required to go to a primary care physician and not be entitled to ER care unless it is an immediate health emergency. If there is a need for a social program, that is the need.
OK. Are you in favor of government-funded programs that would provide the poor with regular access to a primary care physician?
| 206 |
lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:40:24pm |
re: #193 Dark_Falcon
They can't though because many communities have made it a felony if you report someone as an illegal to the federal government if you are in a public profession like doctor, police, or paramedic.
Since when did local law supersede federal law?
| 207 |
lastlaugh Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:40:55pm |
re: #199 lrsshadow
Oh like they do with car insurance right... opps the car insurance I bought from a Georgia company meets the Minnesota requirements. I guess interstate insurance would not allow for a company to do as you claim.
The Georgia company has to file with the Minnesota DOI. Casualty insurance is a state-by-state approval process as well.
| 208 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:41:06pm |
re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist
OK. Are you in favor of government-funded programs that would provide the poor with regular access to a primary care physician?
Why not quit giving them everything and make some incentives to get above the poverty level? No one ever said life was fair.
| 209 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:41:09pm |
re: #206 lrsshadow
They can't though because many communities have made it a felony if you report someone as an illegal to the federal government if you are in a public profession like doctor, police, or paramedic.
Since when did local law supersede federal law?
What communities have made it a felony?
| 210 |
mich-again Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:41:38pm |
re: #206 lrsshadow
Since when did local law supersede federal law?
Depends on jurisdiction I guess. The Fed's don't always have jurisdiction over the States.
| 211 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:41:57pm |
re: #208 soxfan4life
Why not quit giving them everything and make some incentives to get above the poverty level? No one ever said life was fair.
Quit giving them everything? You think the poor are getting everything given to them?
Ending this conversation before I say something I'll regret.
| 212 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:42:52pm |
re: #180 BryanS
So $250k is the point at which 'enough is enough', huh?
Whatever, set a number. Get serious about the costs this country is incurring and get on with it.
Do you make $250 large? What is the point of your quibble? A number must be set.
What is your number? $75,000? $150,00o?
$1,000,000? (Let's leave those poor bastards with less that a million a year in income alone! Haven't they suffered enough!!).
| 213 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:42:59pm |
re: #195 lastlaugh
The endgame would be would be federal regulation, and federal guarantees of insurance companies (ala FDIC). Probably the regulation would reflect that of stricter states, and voila a larger federal government.
It wouldn't be easy to do necessarily, but the market only works when there is competition. We accept federal regulation of interstate commerce in everything except health insurance. We can fight over regulations at the federal level, but that is where interstate commerce fights belong.
| 214 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:43:54pm |
re: #211 SanFranciscoZionist
Evening {SFZ}, How's things on your coast?
| 215 |
lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:44:19pm |
re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist
Well around hear, City of Minneapolis, Hennepin County, Ramsey County, City of St. Paul just to name a few. [2] Minneapolis Code of Ordinances 19.10-19.15 (May 2007).
[3] St. Paul Ordinance No. 2003R-109 (April 2003), Administrative Code Sec. 44.01, 44.02.
| 216 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:44:21pm |
re: #202 Conservative Moonbat
And if they can't afford to go to a primary care physician?
They can slip it to the Emergency Room ususn EMTALA (I've been spelling it wrong, PIMF!)
| 217 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:44:29pm |
re: #211 SanFranciscoZionist
Quit giving them everything? You think the poor are getting everything given to them?
Ending this conversation before I say something I'll regret.
Food stamps, health insurance, fuel assistance, section 8 housing. Covers most of the basics. If you let them get hungry enough it becomes quite a motivator.
| 218 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:45:01pm |
re: #214 McSpiff
Evening {SFZ}, How's things on your coast?
Ah, decent, decent.
I've got a pot of stew that's gone terribly wrong, somehow, at least to my husband's taste buds. Can't figure out what the trouble is.
| 219 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:45:13pm |
The problem is not that people are taxed too little, the problem is that government spends too much.
- Ronald Reagan
| 220 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:45:23pm |
re: #208 soxfan4life
No one ever said life was fair.
Don't hate the game. Learn the game, and play it better.
| 221 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:45:37pm |
re: #215 lrsshadow
Well around hear, City of Minneapolis, Hennepin County, Ramsey County, City of St. Paul just to name a few. [2] Minneapolis Code of Ordinances 19.10-19.15 (May 2007).
[3] St. Paul Ordinance No. 2003R-109 (April 2003), Administrative Code Sec. 44.01, 44.02.
Interesting. It's actually a felony offense, or is it simply policy not to call?
| 222 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:46:02pm |
re: #186 SteveC
EMTLA (Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act) says if you show up at an Emergency Room needing care or in active labor, you are served without regard to cost. That covers the working poor. I am not sure what kind of assistance to provide Illegal Aliens, but their Illegal status would not grant them EMTLA rights.
HOW we get there, I have no idea. But you can't just leave a sick or injured Illegal by the curb. That's inhumane.
And illegals definitely contribute to the cost of health care, but not to the degree that the gaspers infer. The large majority of health care care costs in this country that are laid back on local taxpayers are from the uninsured citizen. It sucks.
| 223 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:46:12pm |
re: #217 soxfan4life
Food stamps, health insurance, fuel assistance, section 8 housing. Covers most of the basics. If you let them get hungry enough it becomes quite a motivator.
GAZE.
| 224 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:46:18pm |
re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist
Ah, decent, decent.
I've got a pot of stew that's gone terribly wrong, somehow, at least to my husband's taste buds. Can't figure out what the trouble is.
As the post below says, if you let them get hungry enough...
/cant decide if I want to suggest debtors prison or simply made a modest proposal here...
| 225 |
lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:46:51pm |
re: #210 mich-again
Yes but constitutionally state and local government are required to enforce federal law in their own community. Or am I wrong? If so does that mean that local officials don't have to enforce federal law?
| 226 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:46:53pm |
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
- Winston Churchill
| 227 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:14pm |
re: #212 austin_blue
Whatever, set a number. Get serious about the costs this country is incurring and get on with it.
Do you make $250 large? What is the point of your quibble? A number must be set.
What is your number? $75,000? $150,00o?
$1,000,000? (Let's leave those poor bastards with less that a million a year in income alone! Haven't they suffered enough!!).
Why not set a flat rate with a $40,000 a year deduction and let everyone shoulder the load equally? Seems to me if everyone shared responsibility they might be a little more dilligent in keeping a lid on spending/
| 228 |
solomonpanting Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:28pm |
re: #61 austin_blue
Okay, I'll drop the turd in the punchbowl. According to the Congressional Budget Office, Pelosi's health care bill will cover 96% of all citizens and save the Gubmint $100 billion over 10 years:
If the burden is shifted to the states and to individuals who currently don't pay for health insurance, then yes, the savings to the Federal government would be rather large. I believe it's referred to as Robbing Peter To Pay Paul.
We've always had shamelessness, but we've never had it on this galactic scale. This is [the] shamelessness of a quarter-trillion-dollar trick.
And the trick works like this — the bill has in it the assumption (which the CBO has to accept) that they will cut a quarter trillion of Medicare by cutting the fees that doctors and others receive.
We know it's not going to happen because the House is going to have a separate bill in which it pays the quarter of a trillion — with no offsets — out of the borrowed money. So it is a huge hole in the budget, but it is in a separate bill.
The separate bill ought to be called the "Pinnacle of Cynicism Act," because that's exactly what it is. However, in the bill that will be called the National Healthcare Reform Act, it [the payment to doctors of that $250 billion] is not going to appear, and that's why it [net cost of the health-care bill] ends up under a trillion — when in fact it is over a trillion. And [that is] why it ends up with no deficit whereas it will increase the deficit by about $200 billion.
So that's the black hole at the center of all this.
Secondly, if you step back and say we're, in fact, creating an entitlement of $1 trillion dollars, and even if it is offset with raises in taxes, and …cuts in other spending, that is $1 trillion that you can otherwise apply to other parts of the ... deficit, which is now going to be $9 trillion over a decade.
So, in other words, you create an entitlement. You steal the possible revenue sources out of other deficit reduction, and in the end you blow a hole in the deficit that is just enormous.
| 229 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:35pm |
re: #202 Conservative Moonbat
And if they can't afford to go to a primary care physician?
Like I said, that is where there is a need for a social program if one exists. And we have many such programs at state and local levels. In my state, there is Badger Care which is a means tested assistance program for those who cannot afford health insurance. A large portion of the population that is not insured is in that state by choice.
| 230 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:38pm |
re: #184 SanFranciscoZionist
I don't buy it, especially the part where it's all illegal immigrants doing it. Link and figures?
You don't buy it, but you do pay for it if you pay for any sort of healthcare in this country.
Roughly half of the 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. don't have health insurance, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, a nonpartisan research group. Like others who can't afford medical care, illegal immigrants tend to flock to hospital emergency rooms, which, under a 1986 law, can't turn people away, even if they can't pay. Emergency-room visits, where treatment costs are much higher than in clinics, jumped 32% nationally between 1996 and 2006, the latest data available.
Between 2000 and 2006, Solano County saw a 13.1% increase in total emergency-room visits, more than twice the state average. Nearly 80% of the visits weren't urgent.
As in emergency rooms, patients aren't asked about their immigration status.
Costs at such primary-care centers are probably 10% to 15% the cost of treatment in a hospital emergency room, says Paul Mango, head of the health-care practice at McKinsey & Co.
The Federation for American Immigration Reform, which advocates a temporary moratorium on most immigration, puts the total cost at $10.7 billion and calls the estimate conservative.
- There are 45.7 million people, or 15.3 percent of the U.S. population, who lack health insurance, according to the U.S. Census Bureau's Current Population Survey, which is based on 2007 data.
- A total of 9.7 million among the uninsured said they were "not a citizen." Foreign students and workers legally in the country as well as illegal immigrants are included in this sub-group, according to Census Bureau researchers.
Illegals are at least 21% of the number of uninsured according to these estimates. I expect the real numbers are far higher as the census let people self identify their immigration status, it is hard to believe the U.S. Census Bureau would have easy access to the bulk of illegals.
| 231 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:47:49pm |
re: #212 austin_blue
Whatever, set a number. Get serious about the costs this country is incurring and get on with it.
Do you make $250 large? What is the point of your quibble? A number must be set.
What is your number? $75,000? $150,00o?
$1,000,000? (Let's leave those poor bastards with less that a million a year in income alone! Haven't they suffered enough!!).
My money is my money, no matter how much I have. It's not your place to say what I do with my money.
| 232 |
lastlaugh Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:48:00pm |
re: #213 BryanS
It wouldn't be easy to do necessarily, but the market only works when there is competition. We accept federal regulation of interstate commerce in everything except health insurance. We can fight over regulations at the federal level, but that is where interstate commerce fights belong.
I just don't know if I buy this, the only insurers that would have difficulty filing in multiple states would be pretty small, and probably have a significant disadvantage when it comes to economics of scale anyway. This just seems like a insurance company talking point in order to get around more stringent state DOIs.
| 233 |
Irenicum Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:48:07pm |
re: #174 BryanS
And your point is? I say this as a Republican (a disaffected one to be sure). Though, to be sure, I don't fit neatly within party lines. Sure Kennedy cuts taxes when he came into office. He had to "prove" he wasn't a Catholic commie. Those were the times. Nonetheless we lived in a time of economic wealth that nonetheless had those tax rates. We may not need them now. But maybe we do. Maybe we need an economic system (rules, regs) that accounts both for those who generate wealth and those who suffer from the excesses. That's my concern.
| 234 |
lrsshadow Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:48:14pm |
re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist
Felony offense leading to immediate suspension as a peace officer.
| 235 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:48:15pm |
re: #220 SteveC
Don't hate the game. Learn the game, and play it better.
I guess if living off of others is playing it better.
| 236 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:48:53pm |
re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist
OK. Are you in favor of government-funded programs that would provide the poor with regular access to a primary care physician?
We already have them. They are run by states and subsidized by the feds. I cite Badger Care as Wisconsin's program to address those in need.
| 237 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:49:29pm |
re: #217 soxfan4life
Food stamps, health insurance, fuel assistance, section 8 housing. Covers most of the basics. If you let them get hungry enough it becomes quite a motivator.
How do you get around the fact there are fewer jobs than there are people in need of one. Unemployment is approaching 10% for crying out loud. Should 1/10th of the nation's population be destitute and living in the streets, eating out of dumpsters?
| 238 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:49:44pm |
re: #234 lrsshadow
Felony offense leading to immediate suspension as a peace officer.
Didn't know you could do that. I can see the advantage to law enforcement, but it's a definite trade-off.
| 239 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:49:55pm |
re: #226 Racer X
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
- Winston Churchill
Quite Concur.
| 240 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:50:04pm |
re: #226 Racer X
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
- Winston Churchill
"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money"
- Margaret Thatcher
| 241 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:50:56pm |
re: #237 Conservative Moonbat
If those 10% starve, problem solved. Duh!
| 242 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:51:02pm |
re: #212 austin_blue
Whatever, set a number. Get serious about the costs this country is incurring and get on with it.
Do you make $250 large? What is the point of your quibble? A number must be set.
What is your number? $75,000? $150,00o?
$1,000,000? (Let's leave those poor bastards with less that a million a year in income alone! Haven't they suffered enough!!).
The point of the number is not in it's choosing, it's in the existence of a number that you have a cavalier belief that anything above that is too much. 90% marginal tax rates tell the rich who have been successful at creating wealth to stop doing it, because there is nothing in it to continue.
| 243 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:51:13pm |
re: #203 BryanS
Uhm...don't be deliberately obtuse. Insurance companies are forbidden from offering insurance products across state lines. That is why the market is so segmented into so few providers in each state.
What was obtuse?Are you going to cart your compound fracture across state lines or not? if not, are you going to cart around various hospitals in your sdtate to get a good deal?
How about if you get carted to your nearest ER and have surgery and don't pay a freaking dime?
That, by the way, is what the rest of the western world has. No one goes bankrupt.
Fancy that.
| 244 |
mich-again Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:51:42pm |
re: #225 lrsshadow
Technically, the Feds shouldn't make a new law outside their jurisdiction.
| 245 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:51:44pm |
re: #241 McSpiff
If those 10% starve, problem solved. Duh!
Please remember your /sarc tag for lines like that.
| 246 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:52:24pm |
re: #197 austin_blue
Ah. And you feel that would free up enough money to pay the uninsured?
Yes I do, we are talking at minimum 21% of the uninsured, and that is likely a gross understatement. Add to this the fact that the ER treatment 9 or 10 times more expensive than private care and yes, there would be loads of money left over to provide health care for the uninsured through normal, non-ER care.
And it's not necessarily poverty, in large part. It's folks in the doughnut hole who have jobs where their employer doesn't offer health insurance and who can't afford to buy it privately. There but for the grace of God are you.
An there with the grace of a health care system that is not being defrauded we would have plenty of money to help the poor.
| 247 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:52:53pm |
re: #245 Dark_Falcon
Please remember your /sarc tag for lines like that.
That just costs me up dings. Half the people know to add it and up ding me. The other half take me serious and up ding me. Illegitimate karma is still karma!
| 248 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:53:17pm |
re: #237 Conservative Moonbat
How do you get around the fact there are fewer jobs than there are people in need of one. Unemployment is approaching 10% for crying out loud. Should 1/10th of the nation's population be destitute and living in the streets, eating out of dumpsters?
No, we should run the economy totally into the shitter and put about 40% of the nation out of work. Maybe then people will realize government spending doesn't drive our economy. Our grandparents and great grandparents lived through the Great Depression and learned how to save. It only took 2 generations to forget that lesson.
| 249 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:53:58pm |
re: #222 austin_blue
And illegals definitely contribute to the cost of health care, but not to the degree that the gaspers infer. The large majority of health care care costs in this country that are laid back on local taxpayers are from the uninsured citizen. It sucks.
It's not a solution, but it is a start. People present at the Emergency room because they call a Primary Care Physician and can't get an appointment for a MONTH.
We need more PCP's, tha would relieve the crisis in the ER. Doctors aren't going into Primary Care because Medical School is so damn expensive and Primary Care pays very little (and has much worse hours) that the specialties. So perhaps the answer is to subsidize medical schools and those who chose primary care.
But even if you do that and it works, we're still going to have a PCP shortage for years while these new docs work their way through school, intern, etc.
| 250 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:54:35pm |
re: #237 Conservative Moonbat
How do you get around the fact there are fewer jobs than there are people in need of one. Unemployment is approaching 10% for crying out loud. Should 1/10th of the nation's population be destitute and living in the streets, eating out of dumpsters?
Fix that by allowing the private sector to strengthen.
| 251 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:54:43pm |
re: #232 lastlaugh
I just don't know if I buy this, the only insurers that would have difficulty filing in multiple states would be pretty small, and probably have a significant disadvantage when it comes to economics of scale anyway. This just seems like a insurance company talking point in order to get around more stringent state DOIs.
Well, I don't work for an insurance company. If anything, removing barriers to interstate commerce, and the anti-trust exemptions the insurance companies have been granted due to the segmentation of the market, is exactly the opposite of what the insurance companies are asking for.
| 252 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:55:23pm |
re: #229 BryanS
Like I said, that is where there is a need for a social program if one exists. And we have many such programs at state and local levels. In my state, there is Badger Care which is a means tested assistance program for those who cannot afford health insurance. A large portion of the population that is not insured is in that state by choice.
I've been trying to get on TennCare for years. I'm self-empoyeed and can't get affordable private insurance due to the fact I'm bi-polar. I'm paying $300 a month out of pocket just to stay sane right now. TennCare says I have to be disabled, a parent with kids or an old person. They discriminate on the basis of age. Existing social programs clearly don't cut it, otherwise there wouldn't be so many uninsured.
If I were to go on disability I could probably qualify, but I'd rather work to support myself as long as I can. It's just getting increasingly hard to afford the medications which allow me to be a functional member of society in the first place.
| 253 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:55:42pm |
re: #243 austin_blue
How about if you get carted to your nearest ER and have surgery and don't pay a freaking dime?
That, by the way, is what the rest of the western world has. No one goes bankrupt.
Where? Link?
Because nothing is free. Perhaps they pay higher taxes all around?
| 254 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:55:54pm |
re: #212 austin_blue
Whatever, set a number. Get serious about the costs this country is incurring and get on with it.
Do you make $250 large? What is the point of your quibble? A number must be set.
What is your number? $75,000? $150,00o?
$1,000,000? (Let's leave those poor bastards with less that a million a year in income alone! Haven't they suffered enough!!).
Those evil rich folk you are attacking pay the lion share of the tax money in this country. Tax them into taking their money offshore and you will have less cake to spread around to the indigent.
| 255 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:56:59pm |
re: #217 soxfan4life
Food stamps, health insurance, fuel assistance, section 8 housing. Covers most of the basics. If you let them get hungry enough it becomes quite a motivator.
Nice comment, Marie Antoinette! And the fact that there are 10 jobs for every 40 applicant affects you how? Maybe it will motivate them to break into your house, steal all your stuff, and then rifle your accounts.
You really can be an insensitive prick sometimes.
| 256 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:57:20pm |
re: #217 soxfan4life
Food stamps, health insurance, fuel assistance, section 8 housing. Covers most of the basics. If you let them get hungry enough it becomes quite a motivator.
One child dead, one injured in fire
Wilson says she has no idea how the flames erupted. She just kept repeating this, "I really need to get in here and see if my purse burned up, because I had my food stamps card in there."
FACEPALM!!
| 257 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:57:39pm |
re: #254 Bagua
Those evil rich folk you are attacking pay the lion share of the tax money in this country. Tax them into taking their money offshore and you will have less cake to spread around to the indigent.
Silly you, don't you know those rich folk are stupid as well, and would never figure out how to move their money out of the country and avoid the punitive taxes.///
| 258 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:57:46pm |
re: #250 cliffster
Fix that by allowing the private sector to strengthen.
Agreed. Pull the porkilus money that hasn't been spent and focus on cost-cutting. Target waste and fraud and reform the way defense projects are contracted out.
| 259 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:57:53pm |
Oh, and you want to get even more bummed out?
Medical schools are struggling to find students. Fewer college kids are choosing to become doctors. There's no longer any money in it.
Fewer doctors means - you guessed it - longer lines.
| 260 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:58:11pm |
re: #233 Irenicum
And your point is? I say this as a Republican (a disaffected one to be sure). Though, to be sure, I don't fit neatly within party lines. Sure Kennedy cuts taxes when he came into office. He had to "prove" he wasn't a Catholic commie. Those were the times. Nonetheless we lived in a time of economic wealth that nonetheless had those tax rates. We may not need them now. But maybe we do. Maybe we need an economic system (rules, regs) that accounts both for those who generate wealth and those who suffer from the excesses. That's my concern.
My point was that 90% marginal rates was an impediment to economic growth. Why not 99%? Why not 100%? At some number, it has to be that the rate is so high that wealth generation is disincentivized.
| 261 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 9:59:42pm |
re: #246 Bagua
An there with the grace of a health care system that is not being defrauded we would have plenty of money to help the poor.
Wrong. Major fail. That is not the experience of the rest of the western world.
| 262 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:00:09pm |
re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist
Interesting. It's actually a felony offense, or is it simply policy not to call?
Not a felony at all. One is an ordinance and the other is a resolution. Chapter 19 of the Minneapolis Municode read as follows:
CHAPTER 19. EMPLOYEE AUTHORITY IN IMMIGRATION MATTERS
19.10. Purpose and policy statement. This chapter clarifies the communication and enforcement relationship between the city and the United States Department of Homeland Security and other federal agencies with respect to the enforcement of civil immigration laws. The city works cooperatively with the Homeland Security, as it does with all state and federal agencies, but the city does not operate its programs for the purpose of enforcing federal immigration laws. The Homeland Security has the legal authority to enforce immigration laws in the United States, in Minnesota and in the city. This chapter ordinance shall be the only regulation within the city on this subject matter, and it shall supersede all conflicting policies, ordinances, rules, procedures and practices. (2003-Or-092, § 1, 7-11-03)
19.20. General city services. (a) To the extent permitted by law, in determining eligibility for, and providing general city services, city employees shall be governed by the following requirements:
(1) City employees are to carry out their regular duties for the purpose of administering general city services and programs. Employees may complete I-9 forms, may question a person regarding the I-9 form and documents supporting the I-9 form, and may allow Homeland Security to audit the I-9 forms as allowed by law. Employees shall comply with any properly issued subpoena for the production of documents or witnesses, even if related to immigration issues or issues of the Homeland Security.
(2) City employees shall follow general city, state and federal guidelines to assess eligibility for services. City employees shall only solicit immigration information or inquire about immigration status when specifically required to do so by law or program guidelines as a condition of eligibility for the service sought. City employees may require evidence of a person's identity and may ask to see a person's personal identifying documents only when specifically authorized and required to do so by the employee's work duties. City employees shall not discriminate against any current or potential service users on the basis of any of the protected categories listed in the city's civil rights ordinance (139.40), or on the basis of immigration status.
(3) Other than complying with lawful subpoenas, city employees and representatives shall not use city resources or personnel solely for the purpose of detecting or apprehending persons whose only violation of law is or may be being undocumented, being out of status, or illegally residing in the United States (collectively "undocumented").
And the "punishment":
19.40 Complaints and discipline. Complaints of a violation of this chapter shall be shall be subject to disciplinary action under the appropriate union contract, civil service commission rules, or department work rules. It shall not be a violation of this chapter to require the completion of I-9 forms or to inquire into or disclose the immigration status of the complainant or witnesses if necessary as part of the investigation of a complaint of a violation of this chapter, or if deemed necessary by the appointing authority in order to administer discipline for such violations. (2003-Or-092, § 1, 7-11-03)
Quite a stretch to call that a felony.
| 263 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:00:36pm |
| 264 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:00:50pm |
re: #243 austin_blue
What was obtuse?Are you going to cart your compound fracture across state lines or not? if not, are you going to cart around various hospitals in your sdtate to get a good deal?
How about if you get carted to your nearest ER and have surgery and don't pay a freaking dime?
That, by the way, is what the rest of the western world has. No one goes bankrupt.
Fancy that.
You question being called obtuse when you continue being obtuse. What is difficult about the concept of interstate commerce as applied to the health insurance business? You are talking about health care delivery, not health insurance. That is why I said, and I continue to say, you are being deliberately obtuse.
| 265 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:00:51pm |
re: #255 austin_blue
Nice comment, Marie Antoinette! And the fact that there are 10 jobs for every 40 applicant affects you how? Maybe it will motivate them to break into your house, steal all your stuff, and then rifle your accounts.
You really can be an insensitive prick sometimes.
There are not 10 jobs for every 40 applicants. There is a large percentage of the unemployed who simply refuse to work or are otherwise unemployable. Eliminate the Illegal Aliens from the work force and there would be 40 jobs for every 10 applicants.
| 267 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:01:33pm |
re: #265 Bagua
Care to back up your claims or is this just a gut feeling type deal?
| 268 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:01:59pm |
re: #255 austin_blue
Nice comment, Marie Antoinette! And the fact that there are 10 jobs for every 40 applicant affects you how? Maybe it will motivate them to break into your house, steal all your stuff, and then rifle your accounts.
You really can be an insensitive prick sometimes.
Point taken, but if it bothers you, you should consider donating heavily to charities that you trust, and volunteering your time. And with all due respect, quite presuming that you are entitled to tell others how to spend their money.
| 269 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:01:59pm |
re: #261 austin_blue
Wrong. Major fail. That is not the experience of the rest of the western world.
Wrong major fail because you know not of what you speak. And we're talking about the US, not the western world.
| 270 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:02:24pm |
re: #261 austin_blue
Wrong. Major fail. That is not the experience of the rest of the western world.
Can you provide some links to examples of this wonderful care?
Because I keep hearing horror stories of long waits in places like England and Canada.
| 271 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:02:35pm |
re: #265 Bagua
Eliminate the Illegal Aliens from the work force and there would be 40 jobs for every 10 applicants.
Interesting allegation. Any evidence?
| 272 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:02:42pm |
re: #249 SteveC
.
We need more PCP's, tha would relieve the crisis in the ER. Doctors aren't going into Primary Care because Medical School is so damn expensive and Primary Care pays very little (and has much worse hours) that the specialties. So perhaps the answer is to subsidize medical schools and those who chose primary care.
.
This is something I haven't seen addressed in the health care debates. One of my pet solutions has been to provide government subsidies for medical schools and then require all interns to work in free clinics as part of their training.
Right now medical schools are churning out new MDs with a quarter million bucks in student loans and no sense of public service.
| 273 |
solomonpanting Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:02:55pm |
I suppose this bears a reprint:
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The t enth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers, he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28%savi ngs).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
'I only got a dollar out of the $20', declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10!'
'Yeah, that's right', exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!'
'That's true!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'
'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia
For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
| 274 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:02:57pm |
re: #252 Conservative Moonbat
I've been trying to get on TennCare for years. I'm self-empoyeed and can't get affordable private insurance due to the fact I'm bi-polar. I'm paying $300 a month out of pocket just to stay sane right now. TennCare says I have to be disabled, a parent with kids or an old person. They discriminate on the basis of age. Existing social programs clearly don't cut it, otherwise there wouldn't be so many uninsured.
If I were to go on disability I could probably qualify, but I'd rather work to support myself as long as I can. It's just getting increasingly hard to afford the medications which allow me to be a functional member of society in the first place.
Then that's a problem with your state's program, not the federal government.
| 275 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:03:13pm |
re: #264 BryanS
You question being called obtuse when you continue being obtuse. What is difficult about the concept of interstate commerce as applied to the health insurance business? You are talking about health care delivery, not health insurance. That is why I said, and I continue to say, you are being deliberately obtuse.
Perhaps not reading page 20 of the newspapers? The point you're making is huge, but also largely ignored.
| 276 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:03:59pm |
re: #255 austin_blue
Nice comment, Marie Antoinette! And the fact that there are 10 jobs for every 40 applicant affects you how? Maybe it will motivate them to break into your house, steal all your stuff, and then rifle your accounts.
You really can be an insensitive prick sometimes.
Maybe, or they might find themselves on the wrong end of a 12 gauge. Sorry, I grew up on a farm, worked my ass of from dusk till dawn, and served this country in the military. Can't drum up alot of sympathy for someone who looks to everyone else to take care of their family. There are jobs out there, at least until Congress passes crap and trade, or stifles the economy with public option health insurance. Probably making less than what some are accustomed to, but there is work out there. Line Constuction, Nursing, Military, Overseas Contractors.
| 277 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:04:04pm |
The City of Minnesota does not define felony classifications. That is defined by Minnesota Statute -- in other words the state.
| 278 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:04:30pm |
re: #272 Conservative Moonbat
This is something I haven't seen addressed in the health care debates. One of my pet solutions has been to provide government subsidies for medical schools and then require all interns to work in free clinics as part of their training.
Perhaps I am wrong about this... as I only read it one place and I can't remember where.. but doesn't the Medicare program practically fund the internships around this country? I thought for sure I read something to that effect.
| 279 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:05:10pm |
re: #271 freetoken
I'd be happy to provide counter anecdotes. 3 days for a heart valve replacement. 5 days for a heart stint. All in Canada. That also includes weekends. I'm currently on a 2 month waiting list, for a purely cosmetic dermatology consult.
| 280 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:05:13pm |
re: #260 BryanS
My point was that 90% marginal rates was an impediment to economic growth. Why not 99%? Why not 100%? At some number, it has to be that the rate is so high that wealth generation is disincentivized.
I think I read that 47% of the American people do not pay taxes. We're all walking around with someone riding our shoulders already!
| 281 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:05:56pm |
| 282 |
Neutral President Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:05:58pm |
re: #243 austin_blue
What was obtuse?Are you going to cart your compound fracture across state lines or not? if not, are you going to cart around various hospitals in your sdtate to get a good deal?
How about if you get carted to your nearest ER and have surgery and don't pay a freaking dime?
That, by the way, is what the rest of the western world has. No one goes bankrupt.
Fancy that.
The rest of the western world also has double digit unemployment and fractional GDP growth as a "norm" as well as prohibitive taxation. Their defense budgets have been underwritten by the United States for about 60 years as well.
| 283 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:07:05pm |
re: #280 SteveC
I think I read that 47% of the American people do not pay taxes. We're all walking around with someone riding our shoulders already!
Yet I would be willing to bet less than 47% of Americans don't have a cell phone.
| 284 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:07:09pm |
re: #267 McSpiff
Care to back up your claims or is this just a gut feeling type deal?
The 10 to 40 is a play on Austin's 10 to 40 canard. However, no one questions that we are talking about at least 12 million illegals, and most consider that a gross underestimate. But go with that number, there are currently about 14 million unemployed Americans.
So yes, employment for everybody with the illegals removed from the workforce. Add to this the undeniable fact that many of the unemployed simply refuse to work, and we have more than enough jobs for everyone who wants one.
| 285 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:07:10pm |
re: #275 cliffster
Perhaps not reading page 20 of the newspapers? The point you're making is huge, but also largely ignored.
Why it is ignored, I can only guess. I wish the Repubs would make it a central part of a positive agenda on health care reform they support.
| 286 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:07:46pm |
re: #260 BryanS
My point was that 90% marginal rates was an impediment to economic growth. Why not 99%? Why not 100%? At some number, it has to be that the rate is so high that wealth generation is disincentivized.
Haha. You make me into a Laffer.
| 287 |
Sharmuta Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:07:59pm |
re: #277 Gus 802
The City of Minnesota does not define felony classifications. That is defined by Minnesota Statute -- in other words the state.
There's a City of Minnesota? ;p
| 288 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:08:50pm |
| 289 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:08:52pm |
| 290 |
wee fury Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:09:32pm |
| 291 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:09:41pm |
re: #280 SteveC
I think I read that 47% of the American people do not pay taxes. We're all walking around with someone riding our shoulders already!
Income taxes, probably. More pay medicare and payroll taxes, but to provide for their own wellbeing when they are old--at least that's what it is supposed to be.
| 292 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:10:23pm |
re: #284 Bagua
Ah my mistake, didn't realize the global recession was due to illegal immigrants taking jobs. My mistake.
| 293 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:10:31pm |
re: #271 freetoken
Interesting allegation. Any evidence?
See my number 284.
The 40 to 10 was just a play on Austin's 40 - 10, both are whimsical. The actual number is closer to parity, but no one truly knows for sure as it is a political hot potato.
| 294 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:10:35pm |
| 295 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:10:50pm |
re: #272 Conservative Moonbat
This is something I haven't seen addressed in the health care debates. One of my pet solutions has been to provide government subsidies for medical schools and then require all interns to work in free clinics as part of their training.
I like it.
Can't afford health care? No problem - you can get free care at the "residency clinic." Enjoy!
| 296 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:10:56pm |
re: #291 BryanS
Income taxes, probably. More pay medicare and payroll taxes, but to provide for their own wellbeing when they are old--at least that's what it is supposed to be.
OK, so the guy on my shoulders just lost about 20 pounds. But he's still up there!
| 297 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:11:01pm |
| 301 |
Velvet Elvis Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:12:54pm |
re: #278 freetoken
Perhaps I am wrong about this... as I only read it one place and I can't remember where.. but doesn't the Medicare program practically fund the internships around this country? I thought for sure I read something to that effect.
First I've heard of it. If that is the case it doesn't get around the fact that med school costs are astronomical.
Basically what I'm suggesting is to expand the role of teaching hospitals in the public health care system. It sounds kinda barbaric, but pay the MDs in training to practice on the uninsured.
| 302 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:13:05pm |
| 303 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:13:24pm |
| 304 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:13:31pm |
| 305 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:13:33pm |
re: #292 McSpiff
Ah my mistake, didn't realize the global recession was due to illegal immigrants taking jobs. My mistake.
Who was talking about the "global recession"? We are talking about unemployment in the USA. 14 million unemployed Americans and 12 million illegal immigrants suggests that the illegals are in fact taking jobs from Americans.
The exact number is unknown, but assuming half the unemployed are actually uninterested in work, which is reasonable, then we certainly have a job for everyone willing to work with the illegals removed.
| 307 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:13:55pm |
re: #264 BryanS
You question being called obtuse when you continue being obtuse. What is difficult about the concept of interstate commerce as applied to the health insurance business? You are talking about health care delivery, not health insurance. That is why I said, and I continue to say, you are being deliberately obtuse.
re: #268 cliffster
Point taken, but if it bothers you, you should consider donating heavily to charities that you trust, and volunteering your time. And with all due respect, quite presuming that you are entitled to tell others how to spend their money.
We do. My wife and I give over $4,000 a year to various 501c3's, from a relatively limited income (less than $70,000/year). I also serve as a volunteer Commissioner on a City Board and we both do large amounts of charity work.
| 308 |
Neutral President Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:13:58pm |
re: #297 BryanS
Heh...
Bueller...Bueller...
"In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone?... the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered?... raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression."
| 309 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:14:22pm |
re: #303 Dark_Falcon
OMG! BryanS is a Ben Stein loving creationist!
///
Heh...thems' fightin' words.
| 310 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:14:26pm |
| 311 |
Sharmuta Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:15:10pm |
re: #300 freetoken
Share!
There are 37 people on this thread, and I have exactly 37 cookies- so you're all in luck.
| 312 |
Neutral President Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:16:11pm |
| 313 |
Neutral President Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:16:32pm |
re: #311 Sharmuta
There are 37 people on this thread, and I have exactly 37 cookies- so you're all in luck.
"37! In row?"
| 314 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:16:42pm |
re: #305 Bagua
Who was talking about the "global recession"? We are talking about unemployment in the USA. 14 million unemployed Americans and 12 million illegal immigrants suggests that the illegals are in fact taking jobs from Americans.
The exact number is unknown, but assuming half the unemployed are actually uninterested in work, which is reasonable, then we certainly have a job for everyone willing to work with the illegals removed.
There's a fallacy in your logic. I can point it out if you want, or you can find it yourself. I suggest you read [Link: en.wikipedia.org...] and see if you can find it.
| 315 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:16:52pm |
re: #311 Sharmuta
There are 37 people on this thread, and I have exactly 37 cookies- so you're all in luck.
You wouldn't have a double chocolate chip in there, would ya?
| 316 |
Neutral President Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:17:05pm |
| 317 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:17:05pm |
| 318 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:17:15pm |
| 319 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:17:20pm |
re: #301 Conservative Moonbat
First I've heard of it. If that is the case it doesn't get around the fact that med school costs are astronomical.
Basically what I'm suggesting is to expand the role of teaching hospitals in the public health care system. It sounds kinda barbaric, but pay the MDs in training to practice on the uninsured.
Oral Roberts University had a program in the mid 1980's where you could attend medical school for FREE if you agreed to work for ORMinistries for 2 or 3 years. Problem was, all of their grads were going on "missions". They could have been useful here, too.
| 320 |
Sharmuta Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:17:38pm |
re: #315 austin_blue
You wouldn't have a double chocolate chip in there, would ya?
It's an internet cookie- it can be whatever flavor you'd like.
| 321 |
Cheechako Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:17:44pm |
re: #311 Sharmuta
There are 37 people on this thread, and I have exactly 37 cookies- so you're all in luck.
Hey...freetoken's cookie is bigger than mine!!11!!
| 322 |
Neutral President Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:18:18pm |
re: #318 soxfan4life
Love the "Clerks" reference.
That movie ruined the number 37 for me. Every time I hear it, or read it, without fail I think of Veronica and the 37 dicks.
| 323 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:18:26pm |
re: #314 McSpiff
There's a fallacy in your logic. I can point it out if you want, or you can find it yourself. I suggest you read [Link: en.wikipedia.org...] and see if you can find it.
I'm not interested in snarky games or reading assignments, if you have a point to make, do so.
| 324 |
Racer X Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:18:26pm |
re: #311 Sharmuta
There are 37 people on this thread, and I have exactly 37 cookies- so you're all in luck.
That calls for some tea.
| 325 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:18:36pm |
re: #320 Sharmuta
It's an internet cookie- it can be whatever flavor you'd like.
A virtual yum!
I'll take it!
| 327 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:18:47pm |
| 328 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:18:47pm |
re: #307 austin_blue
We do. My wife and I give over $4,000 a year to various 501c3's, from a relatively limited income (less than $70,000/year). I also serve as a volunteer Commissioner on a City Board and we both do large amounts of charity work.
And thanks for your contributions and your service. That is very honorable.
| 329 |
Sharmuta Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:18:59pm |
re: #321 Cheechako
Hey...freetoken's cookie is bigger than mine!!11!!
That's because I added something to his. Shhh- don't tell. Teehee.
| 330 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:19:31pm |
re: #322 ArchangelMichael
That movie ruined the number 37 for me. Every time I hear it, or read it, without fail I think of Veronica and the 37 dicks.
WHOA!
Get away from that subject! So... Phillies in 7?
| 331 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:20:17pm |
re: #329 Sharmuta
That's because I added something to his. Shhh- don't tell. Teehee.
Mine is making me feel a little funny. Whoa, everything's funny! What did you just say?
| 332 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:20:56pm |
| 333 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:20:56pm |
re: #330 SteveC
WHOA!
Get away from that subject! So... Phillies in 7?
Not sure, now that they announced Joe Blanton as the game 4 starter. 3 starts by Cliff Lee I would say yes.
| 334 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:21:29pm |
re: #323 Bagua
Fine. When Sun Microsystems lays off +2,000 employees, they aren't being replaced with illegal immigrants. As the unemployment rate increases, the number of high paying jobs being lost is increasing. These companies aren't replacing them with illegal immigrants. They simply aren't being replaced at all.To suggest that all jobs are being lost to illegals is simply asinine.
| 335 |
Sharmuta Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:21:50pm |
re: #331 cliffster
Mine is making me feel a little funny. Whoa, everything's funny! What did you just say?
I swear it's only Smurfberries.
| 336 |
wee fury Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:22:28pm |
| 337 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:22:36pm |
re: #334 McSpiff
Fine. When Sun Microsystems lays off +2,000 employees, they aren't being replaced with illegal immigrants. As the unemployment rate increases, the number of high paying jobs being lost is increasing. These companies aren't replacing them with illegal immigrants. They simply aren't being replaced at all.To suggest that all jobs are being lost to illegals is simply asinine.
So if they can't get another high paying job, then they shouldn't work at all?
| 338 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:23:04pm |
| 339 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:25:35pm |
re: #337 soxfan4life
To imply that the economic impact of one job is equal to another is stupid. Thats what Bagua was doing. Yes they should work. But the economic impact of 2000 $70,000+/year jobs is very different than 2000 $20,000+/hour jobs. Bagua was suggesting that simply replacing illegals with legal Americans would fix the economy. Sadly its not that simple.
| 340 |
Sharmuta Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:25:40pm |
re: #338 Dark_Falcon
Aren't those things addictive to humans?
No- just a potent hallucinogenic. Maybe I should have remembered that before I passed out cookies, huh?
| 341 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:26:24pm |
re: #334 McSpiff
Fine. When Sun Microsystems lays off +2,000 employees, they aren't being replaced with illegal immigrants. As the unemployment rate increases, the number of high paying jobs being lost is increasing. These companies aren't replacing them with illegal immigrants. They simply aren't being replaced at all.To suggest that all jobs are being lost to illegals is simply asinine.
I never alleged that everyone can get exactly the same job that they left. That is your idea. If a software coder loses his job at Sun and can't find a job in his field, he must pony up and take what work is available. That is how the world works in a capitalist society.
People lose work, are laid off, fired, whatever, all the time. Often they have to take work below their professional level, those jobs would be available.
| 342 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:26:25pm |
I'm out of here, frinds. Getting late on the East Coast, and I have to get downtown tomorrow. I've an appointment to get my H1N1 shot! :)
| 343 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:28:16pm |
re: #328 cliffster
And thanks for your contributions and your service. That is very honorable.
It comes from my military background. My Dad was a lifer. I served in the AF. Being involved at the local level is the least that we can do. We are part of this community and need to make it better with our service. We both work for the public sector, but our lives extend beyond our jobs. It's important.
I just wish that more folks would do it, embrace the concept of the social compact- that we are all part of the greater polity and all need to work toward a better future.
Too many people are insulated from their communities. They live in their houses, don't know their neighbors. Sad, really
| 344 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:28:20pm |
re: #342 SteveC
I'm out of here, frinds. Getting late on the East Coast, and I have to get downtown tomorrow. I've an appointment to get my H1N1 shot! :)
Wow, who do you know?
| 345 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:28:54pm |
re: #337 soxfan4life
So if they can't get another high paying job, then they shouldn't work at all?
I feel terrible for people who have been unemployed for months and months, or multiple years. I pray every day that doesn't happen to me. But at some point you have to get a job doing SOMETHING. And yes, you can get this job. Maybe you aren't working in a fab, or writing C++, but it's doing something. And yes, it's helping the economy.
| 346 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:29:31pm |
re: #340 Sharmuta
No- just a potent hallucinogenic. Maybe I should have remembered that before I passed out cookies, huh?
I guess it's the Friday Night Smurfberry Thread, then.
| 347 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:29:54pm |
re: #345 cliffster
I feel terrible for people who have been unemployed for months and months, or multiple years. I pray every day that doesn't happen to me. But at some point you have to get a job doing SOMETHING. And yes, you can get this job. Maybe you aren't working in a fab, or writing C++, but it's doing something. And yes, it's helping the economy.
Been there twice. Starting over isn't fun, but it beats the hell out of starving.
| 349 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:31:01pm |
re: #348 BigPapa
Remind me not to buy girl scout cookies from you.//
| 350 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:31:23pm |
re: #348 BigPapa
I just realized a Free Market means everything is free.
Well, as long as the Chinese are buying the debt, that is apparently true.
Wheee!!!
| 351 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:32:10pm |
re: #339 McSpiff
To imply that the economic impact of one job is equal to another is stupid. Thats what Bagua was doing. Yes they should work. But the economic impact of 2000 $70,000+/year jobs is very different than 2000 $20,000+/hour jobs. Bagua was suggesting that simply replacing illegals with legal Americans would fix the economy. Sadly its not that simple.
The economic impact of losing a $70,000/ year job and having no job is greater than the economic impact of taking the $20,000 year job that is currently held by the illegal. 70K to zero is a loss of 70k, and a cost to the economy through benefits. 70k to 20k is a cut of 50K and a net savings to the economy of all those benefits going to the unemployed. So the real loss is much lower with my approach.
Please do a little maths and thinking before calling other people stupid.
| 353 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:32:35pm |
re: #342 SteveC
I'm out of here, frinds. Getting late on the East Coast, and I have to get downtown tomorrow. I've an appointment to get my H1N1 shot! :)
Glad you got cleared for one of those. Sleep well.
| 354 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:32:40pm |
By the way, South Carolina convinced Boeing to build more 787's here!
They are really hyped up about this in the Lowcountry. It's hoped/expected that suppliers will start moving into the state, too.
And this time I am really gone! Last Lizard in, turn off the lights and bring in the flag!
| 355 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:33:45pm |
re: #350 austin_blue
Well, as long as the Chinese are buying the debt, that is apparently true.
Wheee!!!
I dunno. I'm not happy with all the money I own and I try to pay it back as best I can.
| 356 |
SteveC Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:34:22pm |
re: #344 soxfan4life
Wow, who do you know?
State Health Department has had a hotline for H1N1 info and appointments for three weeks now. I have been a frequent caller and finally got lucky!
//Or it might have been a case of "Give him the damn shot and maybe he'll stop bugging us!!!"
| 357 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:34:34pm |
re: #354 SteveC
By the way, South Carolina convinced Boeing to build more 787's here!
They are really hyped up about this in the Lowcountry. It's hoped/expected that suppliers will start moving into the state, too.
And this time I am really gone! Last Lizard in, turn off the lights and bring in the flag!
That is good news. It'll help my area too, Boeing being headquartered in Chicago.
| 358 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:35:03pm |
I did find an article from 1997 that speaks of the Medicare funding of residency for new doctors:
Medicare funding for medical education: a waste of money?
Take, for example, one aspect of the behemoth health insurance program that is not publicized widely. Presently, the Federal government, through Medicare, explicitly subsidizes the cost of graduate medical education. In fact, almost $7,000,000,000 was spent on education in 1996, according to Congressional Budget Office estimates. This money is intended to cover the direct and indirect costs of medical education, including such things as salaries for residents and the extra time a surgeon takes as he or she goes slow to teach a procedure.
Google brings up many many links. I picked the 1997 USA Today article simply to show how long these arguments (over health care) have been going on.
Many Americans are unaware of how much involvement government funding has to do with their lives.
| 359 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:35:35pm |
re: #355 Dark_Falcon
I dunno. I'm not happy with all the money I own and I try to pay it back as best I can.
Own or owe? We are in their pockets, and if they start laying off our debt, oh, Katie bar the door!
| 360 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:37:37pm |
re: #359 austin_blue
Own or owe? We are in their pockets, and if they start laying off our debt, oh, Katie bar the door!
If they start turning us away, it would be a very good thing. Yes, the short term pain would be bad. But it would mean that we finally start spending what we have, and quit mortgaging our posterity's future. I think we've already spent all our grandkids' money. No reason to fritter away THEIR kids' money.
| 361 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:38:26pm |
re: #359 austin_blue
Own or owe? We are in their pockets, and if they start laying off our debt, oh, Katie bar the door!
The Chinese are in a pickle as well. The last thing they want is a collapse of the dollar and the T-bond market. Ultimately, the USA is still the teat and China the suckling.
| 362 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:38:34pm |
re: #359 austin_blue
Own or owe? We are in their pockets, and if they start laying off our debt, oh, Katie bar the door!
Very true. We're in a precarious situation vis-a-vis the Chinese. But sometimes we have leverage too. As the saying goes, owe the bank a million dollars, and the bank owns you, owe a billion--in this case trillions--and you own the bank. The only thing saving us is the Chinese cannot easily dump all their dollars. If they did, they'd lose most the value of their reserves.
| 363 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:40:55pm |
re: #361 Bagua
The Chinese are in a pickle as well. The last thing they want is a collapse of the dollar and the T-bond market. Ultimately, the USA is still the teat and China the suckling.
Apparently the US is "too big to fail" :)
| 364 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:41:49pm |
Looks like the Taliban and Iran's Press TV have started picking up on the moveon.org or Code Pink talking points.
Taliban spokesvermin: 'Blackwater Behind Peshawar Blast'
Riddle me this...they were taking credit for bombings all across Pakistan this month that targeted buses, marketplaces, universities, apartments, military installations, houses, schools and police stations. Why start blaming Blackwater now? What did they do in Peshawar this week that was so beyond the pale that they felt the need to deflect with western leftist-style statements?
| 365 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:42:06pm |
re: #363 BryanS
Apparently the US is "too big to fail" :)
Not if the current administration and Congress have their way.
| 366 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:42:44pm |
re: #351 Bagua
I dont need to call you stupid. You said that every unemployed person in America could take the job of illegal. This, I agree is true. You suggested this is a solution to unemployment. I agree in the dictionary definition sense of the word, this is true. However, an economy replacing $70,000/year jobs with $20,000/year jobs is not healthy. You lose secondary industry, you lose tax base. This economy would be contracting and very much dying. So we could have 0% unemployment, a crashing GDP, and in general standard of living equivalent to the best parts of Mexico.
I'm not suggesting a government fix all. But I'm also not going to say that increasing the % of population doing yard work is going to magically fix everything either. The entire system is built upon the idea that the majority of the populations will have increasing purchasing power. Take that away, and you'll see major changes for even those still employed.
| 367 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:43:10pm |
re: #359 austin_blue
Own or owe? We are in their pockets, and if they start laying off our debt, oh, Katie bar the door!
I know, austin, and I don't like it any better than you do. You might use it to remind your fellow Dems of the importance of fiscal discipline. That, at least, is one thing that Texas does right. And as this article shows, its part of the reason Bob McDonnell will be the next governor of Virginia. As NY-23 is an example how conservatives should not run for office, McDonnell's run in the Old Dominion is an example of how they should run.
| 368 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:44:13pm |
re: #362 BryanS
It's not as dire as the alarmist will have it.
China has about $800.5 billion in US Treasuries. The US GDP was about $14.26 trillion in 2008.
With or without the Chinese buying the US debt, the US economy will continue to be the worlds largest. The risks for China far outweigh the risks for the US. They will not bite the hand that feeds them.
| 369 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:44:54pm |
re: #364 Fenway_Nation
Looks like the Taliban and Iran's Press TV have started picking up on the moveon.org or Code Pink talking points.
Taliban spokesvermin: 'Blackwater Behind Peshawar Blast'
Riddle me this...they were taking credit for bombings all across Pakistan this month that targeted buses, marketplaces, universities, apartments, military installations, houses, schools and police stations. Why start blaming Blackwater now? What did they do in Peshawar this week that was so beyond the pale that they felt the need to deflect with western leftist-style statements?
Some of their former supporters are starting to turn on them, so they're looking to deflect blame and muddy the waters.
| 370 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:46:09pm |
re: #366 McSpiff
The entire system is built upon the idea that the majority of the populations will have increasing purchasing power. Take that away, and you'll see major changes for even those still employed.
Agree that this is one of the fundamental, if often unspoken, assumptions behind American life today and the discussions over the economy.
| 371 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:47:37pm |
re: #370 freetoken
Agree that this is one of the fundamental, if often unspoken, assumptions behind American life today and the discussions over the economy.
The market only goes up, up, and up, dontcha know /
| 372 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:48:56pm |
re: #366 McSpiff
I dont need to call you stupid. You said that every unemployed person in America could take the job of illegal. This, I agree is true. You suggested this is a solution to unemployment. I agree in the dictionary definition sense of the word, this is true. However, an economy replacing $70,000/year jobs with $20,000/year jobs is not healthy. You lose secondary industry, you lose tax base. This economy would be contracting and very much dying. So we could have 0% unemployment, a crashing GDP, and in general standard of living equivalent to the best parts of Mexico.
I'm not suggesting a government fix all. But I'm also not going to say that increasing the % of population doing yard work is going to magically fix everything either. The entire system is built upon the idea that the majority of the populations will have increasing purchasing power. Take that away, and you'll see major changes for even those still employed.
The piss poor standard of living is coming soon, once cap and trade goes through.
| 373 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:49:06pm |
re: #371 BryanS
It's not just the equity markets that are expected to increase. Purchasing power, living standards, options for lifestyles... etc... all are expected to increase.
| 374 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:49:29pm |
re: #372 soxfan4life
The piss poor standard of living is coming soon, once cap and trade goes through.
Don't worry, it won't pass. It'll die in the Senate.
| 375 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:50:17pm |
re: #372 soxfan4life
I hope, that if its this obvious to us, it will be this obvious to congress-criters. But who knows?
| 376 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:50:43pm |
re: #374 Dark_Falcon
Don't worry, it won't pass. It'll die in the Senate.
Sorry if I don't sleep well at night counting on the US Senate to do the right thing. There's too much of a track record there.
| 377 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:51:45pm |
re: #366 McSpiff
I dont need to call you stupid. You said that every unemployed person in America could take the job of illegal. This, I agree is true. You suggested this is a solution to unemployment. I agree in the dictionary definition sense of the word, this is true. However, an economy replacing $70,000/year jobs with $20,000/year jobs is not healthy. You lose secondary industry, you lose tax base. This economy would be contracting and very much dying. So we could have 0% unemployment, a crashing GDP, and in general standard of living equivalent to the best parts of Mexico.
I'm not suggesting a government fix all. But I'm also not going to say that increasing the % of population doing yard work is going to magically fix everything either. The entire system is built upon the idea that the majority of the populations will have increasing purchasing power. Take that away, and you'll see major changes for even those still employed.
I explained this in my comment #351. You are not losing secondary industry, that is contracting anyway, therefore the layoffs. When that industry recovers, those same workers will flock back, or not, but at least they won’t be on the dole and sucking on the public teat.
We would never achieve 0% unemployment as many are either unemployable or refuse to work. We would achieve an effective 0% unemployment of those willing to work. I would estimate that at about half the current unemployed, much higher if we cut all the generous welfare.
No, the US GDP will not crash nor would our standard of living approximate Mexico, that is hyperbole. The US is the world’s largest economy, period.
It is a total canard that the US needs illegals or benefits from them, the debits far outweigh the credits on a net basis.
| 378 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:51:59pm |
re: #372 soxfan4life
The piss poor standard of living is coming soon, once cap and trade goes through.
It's the 'new normal', dontchyaknow?
| 379 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:52:03pm |
re: #215 lrsshadow
Bzzt. All are ordinance violations. Not Felonies. Very honking major difference in the two.
For a way to understand some of the thinking herein, please go back and read the history of the Fugitive Slave Act. Many people view legal acts against immigrants in a similar fashion. Right? Wrong? I'm not going there.
William
| 380 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:53:36pm |
re: #378 Fenway_Nation
It's the 'new normal', dontchyaknow?
4 more years of Bush doesn't seem so bad right about now.
| 381 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:53:48pm |
re: #374 Dark_Falcon
Don't worry, it won't pass. It'll die in the Senate.
It shouldn't have gotten that far in the first place. The fact that it got as far as it has to this point worries me considerably.
| 382 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:54:10pm |
re: #373 freetoken
It's not just the equity markets that are expected to increase. Purchasing power, living standards, options for lifestyles... etc... all are expected to increase.
And when it doesn't, look out below!
| 383 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:54:51pm |
re: #370 freetoken
Agree that this is one of the fundamental, if often unspoken, assumptions behind American life today and the discussions over the economy.
The entire market, all economies and life itself is fundamentally one large Ponzi scheme. It always must come crashing down in the end, but the ride up has given Americans and much of the Civilised word a living standard unknown in human history. For that matter, even the uncivilised world has it better as well.
| 384 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:54:56pm |
re: #368 Bagua
It's not as dire as the alarmist will have it.
China has about $800.5 billion in US Treasuries. The US GDP was about $14.26 trillion in 2008.
With or without the Chinese buying the US debt, the US economy will continue to be the worlds largest. The risks for China far outweigh the risks for the US. They will not bite the hand that feeds them.
You miss the point. They are buying our debt at 3.5%. If they, and the rest of the world, refuse to buy our debt at that level, and demand a higher return on our bonds, say 6-7%, our debt service ratio goes through the roof and we are truly in the shitter. We simply cannot continue to run this debt service ratio as we are doing now. Unless we increases government revenues (and the only way to do that in thwe short term is by increasing marginal tax rates), we are going to be screwed, blued, and tatooed in the global bond market.
| 385 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:55:14pm |
re: #380 soxfan4life
soxfan...I'm nostalgic for 4 more years of Clinton at this point.
| 386 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:55:15pm |
re: #380 soxfan4life
4 more years of Bush doesn't seem so bad right about now.
To be fair, the last year of W wasn't all that great.
| 387 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:56:33pm |
| 388 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:56:48pm |
re: #375 McSpiff
I hope, that if its this obvious to us, it will be this obvious to congress-criters. But who knows?
You are assuming the politicians have our best interests at heart, I would suggest they do not.
| 389 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:56:55pm |
re: #377 Bagua
re: #377 Bagua
I'm not talking about illegals. I really don't care about them. Nor do I care about the chronically unemployed. My worry is the increasing number of traditionally well off, traditionally well payed groups being laid off. I'm not worried about someone making $0/year for the last 15. I'm worried about the thousands who were making $70,000/year for the last 15 and are now making $0/year with no fore seeable change. Thats the group I feel you're ignoring. Again, you really do not want to see the average standard of living fall, or even stop increasing.
| 390 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:57:20pm |
re: #386 BryanS
To be fair, the last year of W wasn't all that great.
And the two years before that was the mother of housing bubbles (in modern times.)
| 391 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:58:23pm |
re: #388 Bagua
Then the system cannot be saved. If those in power are actively working against us, it's game over man.
| 392 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:59:27pm |
re: #386 BryanS
To be fair, the last year of W wasn't all that great.
To keep the economy afloat for as long as he did after the election tie up which froze investors big time, Sept 11, and all that followed he should be in consideration for the Nobel prize in economics. Granted his last year wasn't all that, but he had Democrat majorities that did all they could to ensure a Democrat victory for the White house, as much the party of no to his ideas as the R's are now to Obama.
| 393 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 10:59:54pm |
re: #384 austin_blue
You miss the point. They are buying our debt at 3.5%. If they, and the rest of the world, refuse to buy our debt at that level, and demand a higher return on our bonds, say 6-7%, our debt service ratio goes through the roof and we are truly in the shitter. We simply cannot continue to run this debt service ratio as we are doing now. Unless we increases government revenues (and the only way to do that in thwe short term is by increasing marginal tax rates), we are going to be screwed, blued, and tatooed in the global bond market.
They've got some slick tricks up their sleeves. Such as printing money. So China wants to dump $800 billion? No problem, the feds can just print $800 billion and give it to the Chinese. Of course then that $800 billion wouldn't be worth the same anymore, and the Chinese know this. There's no free lunch for us doing that, of course. We'd have the pleasure of runaway inflation if we pulled that kind of stunt. But, we have been doing it already--just one of the reasons for the fall of the US dollar.
| 394 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:00:15pm |
re: #372 soxfan4life
The piss poor standard of living is coming soon, once cap and trade goes through.
Yah, that $175 per year that the CBO projects is going to cost us is going to be an economy killer:
[Link: www.environmentalleader.com...]
| 395 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:01:40pm |
re: #394 austin_blue
Yah, that $175 per year that the CBO projects is going to cost us is going to be an economy killer:
[Link: www.environmentalleader.com...]
A website called "environmentalleader.com" is presumed to be giving unbiased information in this discussion?
| 396 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:02:58pm |
| 397 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:02:58pm |
re: #394 austin_blue
Yah, that $175 per year that the CBO projects is going to cost us is going to be an economy killer:
[Link: www.environmentalleader.com...]
Of course all of those businesses that use electricity and gas or diesel aren't going to pas the cost down to you. But please keep buying all the bullshit they're selling you on this job killer. You work in the public sector so you're safe at least until people stop paying property taxes and whatnot.
| 398 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:03:25pm |
re: #384 austin_blue
You miss the point. They are buying our debt at 3.5%. If they, and the rest of the world, refuse to buy our debt at that level, and demand a higher return on our bonds, say 6-7%, our debt service ratio goes through the roof and we are truly in the shitter. We simply cannot continue to run this debt service ratio as we are doing now. Unless we increases government revenues (and the only way to do that in thwe short term is by increasing marginal tax rates), we are going to be screwed, blued, and tatooed in the global bond market.
I agree with that point. I'm simply saying that it is not in China's interest to cause much trouble and that they have more to lose than the US.
I also agree that the current debt situation is not healthy for the US economy (nor is the trade imbalance), however, increased taxation is not the only solution. Less governmental spending is a better solution.
Also, increase taxation leads to a contracting tax base and less revenue for the government not more. I think this is well documented. We need to correct the debt escalation and the trade imbalance, and also cut governmental spending and tax rates. This will lead to an improved economy.
Oh, and we need to produce our own fossil fuels and use our coal and gas while we deploy nuclear and work on making alternatives economical.
The US would enter a new age of prosperity with these solutions. Increased taxation and increased energy costs will do the opposite.
| 399 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:05:00pm |
re: #391 McSpiff
Then the system cannot be saved. If those in power are actively working against us, it's game over man.
BING BING BING BING! WE GOT US A WINNAH'!
I rarely watch C-Span, but I made it a point to watch when cap & trade was being put to a vote. Right before that, San Fran Nan was lying through her no doubt surgically altered teeth and declaring 'This bill will mean Jobs Jobs Jobs...'
I have never wanted to roundhouse kick the TV more in my life and had this sinking feeling in my stomach that instead of just being clueless and misinformed, the House was actually voting against the itnerests of the American people...by design.
/To be fair, Pelosi could've meant 'This bill will mean the USA will be hemmoraghing Jobs Jobs Jobs...'
| 400 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:05:10pm |
re: #398 Bagua
Either way, some will only be happy if we tax the rich out of existence or out of the country.
| 402 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:06:45pm |
re: #395 cliffster
A website called "environmentalleader.com" is presumed to be giving unbiased information in this discussion?
They're reporting on a report from the CBO. Which could be easily verified. There "about us" states:
About Environmental Leader
Environmental Leader is the leading daily trade publication keeping corporate executives fully informed about energy, environmental and sustainability news.
| 403 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:07:43pm |
re: #384 austin_blue
You miss the point. They are buying our debt at 3.5%. If they, and the rest of the world, refuse to buy our debt at that level, and demand a higher return on our bonds, say 6-7%, our debt service ratio goes through the roof and we are truly in the shitter. We simply cannot continue to run this debt service ratio as we are doing now. Unless we increases government revenues (and the only way to do that in thwe short term is by increasing marginal tax rates), we are going to be screwed, blued, and tatooed in the global bond market.
I agree with the economics, but I won't approve of any tax hikes unless they are accompanied by greater non-defense spending cuts. Government must trim its sails, otherwise its better that we get screwed now so it won't be worse later.
| 404 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:07:53pm |
re: #394 austin_blue
Yah, that $175 per year that the CBO projects is going to cost us is going to be an economy killer:
[Link: www.environmentalleader.com...]
Depends where you live. In Wisconsin, the legislation has earned the opposition of very liberal Senator Feingold due in large part to the crushing effect it would have on our economy. Much of Wisconsin electrical generation is via coal powered plants, as is much of the Midwest and other more historically industrial states. Under the caps, California would be entitled to actually increase emissions while midwestern states like Wisconsin would have to cut energy consumption 50% to meet the caps. You tell people paying $200-$400/mo to heat their homes in winter that they need to pay double to save the environment. Good luck with that. Passing this legislation would go a long way toward tipping the midwest to the Republicans.
| 405 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:07:55pm |
re: #397 soxfan4life
Don't worry, soxfan- I'm sure Austin Blue is one of the tens of millions of Americans who doesn't use any electricity, goods or materiels shipped by truck, rail, maritime shipping or airfreight or stuff that's been grown on a farm.
/
| 406 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:08:20pm |
re: #395 cliffster
A website called "environmentalleader.com" is presumed to be giving unbiased information in this discussion?
Well seeing as they are quoting the CBO, yes. Unless you believe that they are bastardizing CBO reports?
Do you believe that? Or do you take the CBO reports at face value?
Hmm???
| 407 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:09:10pm |
re: #402 Gus 802
You can't possibly go to that site and conclude they are unbiased.
| 408 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:09:58pm |
re: #407 cliffster
You can't possibly go to that site and conclude they are unbiased.
It's a CBO report. Sorry, you might have to wait for the report to show up at Fox News.
| 409 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:10:14pm |
| 410 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:10:23pm |
re: #399 Fenway_Nation
BING BING BING BING! WE GOT US A WINNAH'!
I rarely watch C-Span, but I made it a point to watch when cap & trade was being put to a vote. Right before that, San Fran Nan was lying through her no doubt surgically altered teeth and declaring 'This bill will mean Jobs Jobs Jobs...'
I have never wanted to roundhouse kick the TV more in my life and had this sinking feeling in my stomach that instead of just being clueless and misinformed, the House was actually voting against the itnerests of the American people...by design.
/To be fair, Pelosi could've meant 'This bill will mean the USA will be hemmoraghing Jobs Jobs Jobs...'
She doesn't care, as long as the bill advances government control, she's happy. Pelosi has a hunger for power, far greater than Obama (who despite it all, actually does want to do good, even if that is not the effect of his policies).
| 411 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:10:30pm |
re: #389 McSpiff
re: #377 Bagua
I'm not talking about illegals. I really don't care about them. Nor do I care about the chronically unemployed. My worry is the increasing number of traditionally well off, traditionally well payed groups being laid off. I'm not worried about someone making $0/year for the last 15. I'm worried about the thousands who were making $70,000/year for the last 15 and are now making $0/year with no fore seeable change. Thats the group I feel you're ignoring. Again, you really do not want to see the average standard of living fall, or even stop increasing.
Well that's ok then, but we were talking about the illegals effect on health care and unemployment above, that was the discussion. As far as the folks you are talking about, sure I worry for them as well. Some lose their jobs because the economy is having problems, some because their companies are not competitive, etc. etc.
We can not guarantee everyone lifetime employment, it didn't work out so well for the Soviets. We can, however, do the right thing to protect and nurture our economy which leads to a broad based prosperity which rising tide lifts all boats. (Well not all, but you get the drift?)
A better economy, less governmental spending and debt, less taxation, less illegals defrauding and bleeding the system, cheaper energy, and we have a formula for prosperity. The opposite and we have a formula for an extended recession.
re: #391 McSpiff
Then the system cannot be saved. If those in power are actively working against us, it's game over man.
The system is saved by restricting the power and expansion of government.
| 412 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:10:44pm |
re: #406 austin_blue
And any word on wether or not this estimate includes the inevitable increase in the cost of utilites, transportation or agriculture?
Probably not...
| 413 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:10:51pm |
re: #400 soxfan4life
Either way, some will only be happy if we tax the rich out of existence or out of the country.
That's it in a nutshell.
| 414 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:11:36pm |
re: #405 Fenway_Nation
Don't worry, soxfan- I'm sure Austin Blue is one of the tens of millions of Americans who doesn't use any electricity, goods or materiels shipped by truck, rail, maritime shipping or airfreight or stuff that's been grown on a farm.
/
That's a bit too sarcastic, Fenway. Dial it back a notch. Overall, though, you're in good form tonight.
| 415 |
McSpiff Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:12:12pm |
re: #411 Bagua
Fair enough then. We're looking at different parts of the entire picture.
Well Lizards,
Its 3 am on the east coast (of Canada). I'm mostly sober, mostly hydrated. I think I need to call it a night.
Cheers.
| 416 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:12:23pm |
re: #408 Gus 802
It's a CBO report. Sorry, you might have to wait for the report to show up at Fox News.
I assume that the unnecessary sarcastic lashout makes you feel better. Did it prove anything?
| 417 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:12:44pm |
re: #406 austin_blue
This line at the end tells the real story. Just more redistribution of wealth while doing nothing to confront the problem
The CBO analysis estimates that the legislation will cost the richest U.S. households $245 a year, and the poorest will see gains of $40 a year.
| 418 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:12:58pm |
re: #416 cliffster
I assume that the unnecessary sarcastic lashout makes you feel better. Did it prove anything?
Not really. I was just thinking I hate doing that. ;)
| 419 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:14:24pm |
re: #412 Fenway_Nation
And any word on wether or not this estimate includes the inevitable increase in the cost of utilites, transportation or agriculture?
Probably not...
Dude. This is the CBO, not your local PTA. It's in there. $175/year. Less than $15 per month. Sorry if that doesn't fit with you mindset, but there it is.
Deal.
| 420 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:15:08pm |
re: #396 BryanS
re: #392 soxfan4life
The housing bubble and expansion of the Bush years was paid for all through borrowing. It was not a healthy economy--only seeming so.
Yes indeed, but not all of the expansion, some of it was in fact real, the rest a bubble. Surely the "accommodating" monetary policy was a contributing factor to the housing bubble, but not the only factor.
| 421 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:15:39pm |
re: #408 Gus 802
It's a CBO report. Sorry, you might have to wait for the report to show up at Fox News.
I can almost garuntee you that would show up on Fox alot quicker than Stimulus money would show up to repair a crumbling bridge or highway.
| 422 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:15:49pm |
re: #415 McSpiff
Fair enough then. We're looking at different parts of the entire picture.
Well Lizards,
Its 3 am on the east coast (of Canada). I'm mostly sober, mostly hydrated. I think I need to call it a night.
Cheers.
Yep, and thank you for the chat, I appreciate your input!
| 424 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:17:15pm |
re: #421 Fenway_Nation
I can almost garuntee you that would show up on Fox alot quicker than Stimulus money would show up to repair a crumbling bridge or highway.
Sorry, that CBO report would *never* show up on Fox. Heads would explode.
| 425 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:17:26pm |
re: #419 austin_blue
Dude. This is the CBO, not your local PTA. It's in there. $175/year. Less than $15 per month. Sorry if that doesn't fit with you mindset, but there it is.
Deal.
It's still a bad idea that won't do enough. A much smaller tax focused on research would be a far better idea as would be loan guarantees for new cleaner power plants.
| 426 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:20:03pm |
re: #424 austin_blue
Sorry, that CBO report would *never* show up on Fox. Heads would explode.
You're wrong Austin. I fully expect to be talked about on the hard news shows on Fox. Glen Beck will ignore it but Shepard Smith won't and it will probably be brought up by guests on the opinion shows other than Beck. Don't get carried away about FoxNews. Its a legit news outlet and despite its problems, its still far better than MSNBC and at least a close match with CNN.
| 427 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:20:12pm |
re: #419 austin_blue
Dude. This is the CBO, not your local PTA. It's in there. $175/year. Less than $15 per month. Sorry if that doesn't fit with you mindset, but there it is.
Deal.
And it's an average. Costs are much much higher for states that use more coal for their energy.
| 428 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:20:50pm |
re: #419 austin_blue
And yet this from June in the Wall Street Journal who might know a thing or two about how this may affect the economy
The hit to GDP is the real threat in this bill. The whole point of cap and trade is to hike the price of electricity and gas so that Americans will use less. These higher prices will show up not just in electricity bills or at the gas station but in every manufactured good, from food to cars. Consumers will cut back on spending, which in turn will cut back on production, which results in fewer jobs created or higher unemployment. Some companies will instead move their operations overseas, with the same result.
When the Heritage Foundation did its analysis of Waxman-Markey, it broadly compared the economy with and without the carbon tax. Under this more comprehensive scenario, it found Waxman-Markey would cost the economy $161 billion in 2020, which is $1,870 for a family of four. As the bill's restrictions kick in, that number rises to $6,800 for a family of four by 2035.
Note also that the CBO analysis is an average for the country as a whole. It doesn't take into account the fact that certain regions and populations will be more severely hit than others -- manufacturing states more than service states; coal producing states more than states that rely on hydro or natural gas. Low-income Americans, who devote more of their disposable income to energy, have more to lose than high-income families.
And here is the whole article
[Link: online.wsj.com...]
| 429 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:21:32pm |
re: #421 Fenway_Nation
I can almost garuntee you that would show up on Fox alot quicker than Stimulus money would show up to repair a crumbling bridge or highway.
Well, I actually don't agree with cap and trade. I think instead there should be tax incentives for alternative energy development. Supply side mitigation. Attract new businesses and technologies that can solve AGW which can also provide other benefits such as sustainable energy for the long haul. All based on a phased transitional plan. 2020 is a long way out economically. Energy costs at that time will be higher regardless buy salaries, in theory, should be higher.
| 430 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:22:40pm |
re: #429 Gus 802
regardless
buybut salaries, in theory, should be higher.
PIMF and so is getting enough sleep.
| 431 |
freetoken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:22:42pm |
re: #428 soxfan4life
And yet this from June in the Wall Street Journal who might know a thing or two about how this may affect the economy
Who put this article in their opinion section, as their editors have at least a little bit of integrity left.
| 432 |
lastlaugh Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:23:12pm |
re: #427 BryanS
And it's an average. Costs are much much higher for states that use more coal for their energy.
Can we at least let them build a nuclear power plant between now and 2020?
| 433 |
cliffster Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:23:18pm |
| 434 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:24:43pm |
re: #429 Gus 802
Well, I actually don't agree with cap and trade. I think instead there should be tax incentives for alternative energy development. Supply side mitigation. Attract new businesses and technologies that can solve AGW which can also provide other benefits such as sustainable energy for the long haul. All based on a phased transitional plan. 2020 is a long way out economically. Energy costs at that time will be higher regardless buy salaries, in theory, should be higher.
Wouldn't it have been nice if some of the stimulus money went to building more nuke plants?
Wind and solar cannot replace base load demands. They can only reduce the amount of fuel used to operate the kinds of plants that can provide base load--coal/gas/oil/nuclear.
| 435 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:24:53pm |
re: #425 Dark_Falcon
It's still a bad idea that won't do enough. A much smaller tax focused on research would be a far better idea as would be loan guarantees for new cleaner power plants.
Nope. It's going through and for good reason. We are way the hell past time. This country must lead by example or the expanding world is going to thumb their collective noses at us. We need to convince them to leapfrog our mistake of using coal as a power source and go directly to nuclear, sun, and wind.
Do you folks have any idea how much money can be made in this country and how many jobs there are in that transition if we take the lead?
| 436 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:25:11pm |
re: #419 austin_blue
And what about jobs in mining or energy exploration? What about the railways and trucking companies that service those mines or oilfields? What about the barge companies that ship grain and coal to market or export? Once the smaller operators are taxed out of existence, how do the now-unemployed workers pay for the $175 annual tax increase, genius?
| 437 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:25:14pm |
re: #427 BryanS
And it's an average. Costs are much much higher for states that use more coal for their energy.
Wouldn't that be electricity distribution grids instead of states?
| 438 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:25:27pm |
re: #432 lastlaugh
Can we at least let them build a nuclear power plant between now and 2020?
Agreed--wish they would be allowed.
| 439 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:25:51pm |
re: #431 freetoken
Who put this article in their opinion section, as their editors have at least a little bit of integrity left.
Because it is not hard news, just like the CBO's report. Or do they have a crystal ball that tells them all the numbers they forecast. There figures for Public Option health insurance have fluctuated from 850 billion to 1 trillion plus. But there cap and trade numbers are dead on. Sure, but please pile on the WSJ.
| 440 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:26:43pm |
re: #432 lastlaugh
Can we at least let them build a nuclear power plant between now and 2020?
That's something everyone on this thread supports. Austin has expressed his support of that many times. But then again the there problem is enviroloons, not sane people like Austin.
| 441 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:27:36pm |
re: #437 Gus 802
Wouldn't that be electricity distribution grids instead of states?
There is not much interstate sale of energy. Some, but not the majority. Transmission is very expensive, and the vast majority of power consumed by the factory/home/business is generated by the area power plants.
| 442 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:27:37pm |
re: #435 austin_blue
Nope. It's going through and for good reason. We are way the hell past time. This country must lead by example or the expanding world is going to thumb their collective noses at us. We need to convince them to leapfrog our mistake of using coal as a power source and go directly to nuclear, sun, and wind.
Do you folks have any idea how much money can be made in this country and how many jobs there are in that transition if we take the lead?
Yes I do, "leading by example" equals economic suicide, we would/will impoverish the US. Green jobs are an illusion at best.
| 443 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:27:41pm |
re: #435 austin_blue
Nope. It's going through and for good reason. We are way the hell past time. This country must lead by example or the expanding world is going to thumb their collective noses at us. We need to convince them to leapfrog our mistake of using coal as a power source and go directly to nuclear, sun, and wind.
Do you folks have any idea how much money can be made in this country and how many jobs there are in that transition if we take the lead?
How many jobs in the petroleum and coal industries will be lost? But as long as we go back in time it's all good.
| 444 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:27:59pm |
re: #431 freetoken
Hang on a sec...you posted a link to an Article about Florida's Gulf Coast depleted natural gas reserves earlier this week from a Talahassee newspaper. That was an op-ed piece too...but you didn't bother with that disclaimer.
| 445 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:28:29pm |
re: #435 austin_blue
You're wrong, Austin. That bill will die in the Senate. This nation does not want cap and trade and does not much care what the developing world thinks of us on the issue.
| 446 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:28:49pm |
re: #428 soxfan4life
I saw that $1,870 figure while searching. Typically I do averages so 1870 + 175 / 2 = 1,022.50.
That would be a compromise number for 2020.
| 447 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:29:30pm |
re: #445 Dark_Falcon
Silly you, lost jobs are nothing next to the world loving us again, Jeez.
| 448 |
Bagua Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:30:06pm |
re: #445 Dark_Falcon
You're wrong, Austin. That bill will die in the Senate. This nation does not want cap and trade and does not much care what the developing world thinks of us on the issue.
Add to that, it will not make a blind bit of difference in terms of CO2 reductions. It is a futile and suicidal gesture.
| 449 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:30:11pm |
re: #445 Dark_Falcon
You're wrong, Austin. That bill will die in the Senate. This nation does not want cap and trade and does not much care what the developing world thinks of us on the issue.
Agreed. Opposition is quite strong across the political spectrum in states hardest hit by this legislation. It is not even close to passing 60 votes in the Senate.
| 450 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:30:41pm |
re: #435 austin_blue
Nope. It's going through and for good reason. We are way the hell past time. This country must lead by example or the expanding world is going to thumb their collective noses at us. We need to convince them to leapfrog our mistake of using coal as a power source and go directly to nuclear, sun, and wind.
Do you folks have any idea how much money can be made in this country and how many jobs there are in that transition if we take the lead?
'Lead by example'? Holy fucking shit- are you really that naiive? The Chinese and the Russians are going to increase domestic energy costs and cut themselves off from readily available resources so they can 'follow our lead'?
I can see the Russians cutting others off from resources...but not themselves.
| 451 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:30:46pm |
re: #446 Gus 802
I saw that $1,870 figure while searching. Typically I do averages so 1870 + 175 / 2 = 1,022.50.
That would be a compromise number for 2020.
And from 2020 on it gets increasingly higher and more restrictive.
| 452 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:33:23pm |
re: #448 Bagua
Add to that, it will not make a blind bit of difference in terms of CO2 reductions. It is a futile and suicidal gesture.
Agreed. Cap and trade is not the future. We should lead the world through free innovation, not through massive government coercion. I simply do not and cannot trust government to organize a change like that.
| 453 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:34:56pm |
re: #451 soxfan4life
And from 2020 on it gets increasingly higher and more restrictive.
Yeah. And at the same time I am going to have to purchase health insurance; see my interest rates and bank fees go up; see my rent go higher and higher; food costs will climb; gasoline; fees; other known unknown increases; etc. To be honest I usually wait until I get a disconnect notice from my power company before I pay the bill.
| 454 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:37:04pm |
re: #436 Fenway_Nation
And what about jobs in mining or energy exploration? What about the railways and trucking companies that service those mines or oilfields? What about the barge companies that ship grain and coal to market or export? Once the smaller operators are taxed out of existence, how do the now-unemployed workers pay for the $175 annual tax increase, genius?
Perhaps those railroads that have transported coal could upgrade their tracks to TGVs? Perhaps other industries could turn their workers into builders of windmills? Solar panels? Battery arrays when they come on line?
You sound like the chief spokesman for the horse carriage industry in 1903.
How does that feel?
Here's my my basic response to your argument, FN. There is a 200 year supply of coal in this country. Your argument is going to continue to be made for two hundred years, at which point there will be no more coal. Which will make the point moot.
It is a finite fucking resource. Which could supply much more than electricity by burning it. Maybe keeping it in reserve might be wise?
| 455 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:39:18pm |
Oh...and for every midwestern reigonal or shot-haul railway that's benefitted from ethanol production the last couple of years, I can name five or six more in the Alleghanies or rocky mountains reigon that will be driven out of business because their main customers (coal, energy exploration, natural gas, oil) have been taxed out of business.
And for what it's worth...Brazil's president Lula- who is nominally 'socialist' and probably has the 'green' rhetoric down better than any of our politicians, has authorised the national oil company PetroBras to expand drilling offshore for oil and natural gas...even though various environmental groups have touted their sugarcane-based ethanol program for years.
| 456 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:39:23pm |
re: #453 Gus 802
Don't fret about health insurance. The government run public option is going to streamline everything and make it all more affordable. Just like it's done in... and then there's... Hell they even contract overnight postal delivery to Fed-Ex. But have no fear the government will get it right this time.///
| 457 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:40:17pm |
re: #452 Dark_Falcon
Agreed. Cap and trade is not the future. We should lead the world through free innovation, not through massive government coercion. I simply do not and cannot trust government to organize a change like that.
That's where you get the GOP to acknowledge the problem of AGW and sustainable energy and to propose free-market solutions. That could also include increased nuclear power as well as developing technologies. Now, the means to that end would be accomplished through the free-market since that's how it operates in the first place. I think it's similar to positive reinforcement. You reward companies with tax breaks and the like for being proactive. The opposite is a carbon tax which is essentially a fine or negative enforcement.
| 458 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:41:49pm |
re: #454 austin_blue
Perhaps those railroads that have transported coal could upgrade their tracks to TGVs? Perhaps other industries could turn their workers into builders of windmills? Solar panels? Battery arrays when they come on line?
You sound like the chief spokesman for the horse carriage industry in 1903.
How does that feel?
Here's my my basic response to your argument, FN. There is a 200 year supply of coal in this country. Your argument is going to continue to be made for two hundred years, at which point there will be no more coal. Which will make the point moot.
It is a finite fucking resource. Which could supply much more than electricity by burning it. Maybe keeping it in reserve might be wise?
Sure, but burn what we need now while we need it and research and deploy alternatives.
| 459 |
austin_blue Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:42:03pm |
re: #438 BryanS
Agreed--wish they would be allowed.
104 nuke plants presently supply 20% of the electricity in the US.
That number needs to be increased to 400, supplying 80% of the grid. That's baseline. Renewables (needed during the day, when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing- ie, when they work) could pick up the slack.
A carbon free electric grid.
| 460 |
BryanS Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:43:31pm |
re: #459 austin_blue
104 nuke plants presently supply 20% of the electricity in the US.
That number needs to be increased to 400, supplying 80% of the grid. That's baseline. Renewables (needed during the day, when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing- ie, when they work) could pick up the slack.
A carbon free electric grid.
No disagreement from me there.
| 461 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:43:49pm |
re: #459 austin_blue
104 nuke plants presently supply 20% of the electricity in the US.
That number needs to be increased to 400, supplying 80% of the grid. That's baseline. Renewables (needed during the day, when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing- ie, when they work) could pick up the slack.
A carbon free electric grid.
Good luck getting that by the environmentalists, sound idea but the wingnuts will ruin it
| 462 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:43:49pm |
re: #456 soxfan4life
Don't fret about health insurance. The government run public option is going to streamline everything and make it all more affordable. Just like it's done in... and then there's... Hell they even contract overnight postal delivery to Fed-Ex. But have no fear the government will get it right this time.///
Can't wait. It's supposed to come on line in 2013. Which means I have to be making an extra $400 a month by then. Right now I'm in a serious financial funk and making zero per month. OK, I've sold a few items around the apartment but this is the worst economy I've ever experienced.
| 463 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:44:05pm |
re: #457 Gus 802
That's where you get the GOP to acknowledge the problem of AGW and sustainable energy and to propose free-market solutions. That could also include increased nuclear power as well as developing technologies. Now, the means to that end would be accomplished through the free-market since that's how it operates in the first place. I think it's similar to positive reinforcement. You reward companies with tax breaks and the like for being proactive. The opposite is a carbon tax which is essentially a fine or negative enforcement.
Quite Concur. The getting the GOP's head out of its ass will be the hard part. Technology tends to be easier than politics. To effect political change, we need the science expressed by calm people who are not of the left. Some wouldn't listen but others would. Al Gore would have to be kept away from any such presentation.
| 464 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:45:28pm |
re: #454 austin_blue
Perhaps those railroads that have transported coal could upgrade their tracks to TGVs?
You've demonstrated your ignorance of the topic with that response alone. Alot of the smaller railways are lucky to afford a secondhand GP40-2 diesel locomotive in this economy, but they're going to convert to a multibillion dollar high-speed TGV-like rail line in the blink of an eye?
You sound like the chief spokesman for the horse carriage industry in 1903.
How does that feel?
Refresh my memory...was it the automakers that drove the horse carriage makers out of business or the government?
| 465 |
soxfan4life Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:48:22pm |
re: #464 Fenway_Nation
Refresh my memory...was it the automakers that drove the horse carriage makers out of business or the government?
How much money are we talking about to convert our rail system to a TGV like system? Certainly it would dwarf the stimulus spending package.
| 466 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:50:02pm |
re: #465 soxfan4life
How much money are we talking about to convert our rail system to a TGV like system? Certainly it would dwarf the stimulus spending package.
Yes, it would. Not the meantion the fact that we have lots of places such as around Chicago that would be ill suited to such a conversion. TGV can work well in some places, but it should not be mandated.
| 467 |
Gus Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:50:22pm |
re: #463 Dark_Falcon
Quite Concur. The getting the GOP's head out of its ass will be the hard part. Technology tends to be easier than politics. To effect political change, we need the science expressed by calm people who are not of the left. Some wouldn't listen but others would. Al Gore would have to be kept away from any such presentation.
It can be done and it can be expanded by rewarding companies that do so based on productivity and results. Most if not all of the big energy companies are investing in R/D around this. It would be best to incentivize those goals. At the same time it also provides new investment opportunities.
| 468 |
funky chicken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:54:57pm |
re: #442 Bagua
Yes I do, "leading by example" equals economic suicide, we would/will impoverish the US. Green jobs are an illusion at best.
At this time, correct. And we can lead the way by developing better coal technology...wait, we already have done that. But China is still burning coal the old fashioned, dirty way.
If we make tons of money and raise tons of taxes by increasing our domestic oil production for the short term, we can put more money into alternative energy research. I've lost faith in the oil companies' willingness to bankroll that research with their profits, however. That's why I'm not all that opposed to a windfall profits tax on "big oil," if the money that would be taken from them would be used to construct, say, a nuclear power plant or two, and perhaps a couple of solar "farms" as well.
I guess I'm a squishy moderate on this issue? :-)
| 469 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:56:42pm |
re: #465 soxfan4life
Massive massive up-front investment costs...likely in the hundreds of billions. Theoretically it could pay for itself over time, but there's a couple of problems high-speed rail advocates tend to overlook. The ideal high-speed rail lines that are exemplified in Japan and France are state-run. Outside of the Northeast Corridor, all of America's significant intercity mainlines are run by privately held railway companies. I think the high speed rail advocates underestimate how much commodities move to market or export by rail in this country.
Another thing overlooked is the increased maintenence costs. Instead of just maintaining rails, ballast, ties, bridges and tunnels, with a line like that, you'd also be maintaining a continuous length of overhead wires, constantly making sure the juice is flowing and they aren't knocked out by floods, landslides, etc.
Also worth chewing over is if cap & trade makes oil, nat'l gas or coal verboten thanks to cap & trade- where's the elctricity for this not-at-all insignificant new grid going to come from? The most logical choice would be nuclear...but there are those dead set against that.
| 470 |
funky chicken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:57:14pm |
re: #462 Gus 802
Can't wait. It's supposed to come on line in 2013. Which means I have to be making an extra $400 a month by then. Right now I'm in a serious financial funk and making zero per month. OK, I've sold a few items around the apartment but this is the worst economy I've ever experienced.
Gus, I'm really sorry you're having such a hard time. I can tell you that lots of people are hiring pretty aggressively here in the Oklahoma City area, and that cost of living is quite low here.
And you'd get to vote against Inhofe if you moved here. C'mon, it's win-win.
| 471 |
funky chicken Fri, Oct 30, 2009 11:58:36pm |
re: #469 Fenway_Nation
High speed rail is huge expensive, and this country is, well, huge. I think the advocates forget that simple fact sometimes.
| 472 |
Gus Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:01:13am |
re: #470 funky chicken
Gus, I'm really sorry you're having such a hard time. I can tell you that lots of people are hiring pretty aggressively here in the Oklahoma City area, and that cost of living is quite low here.
And you'd get to vote against Inhofe if you moved here. C'mon, it's win-win.
Thanks. I'll take that under consideration. I have been starting to look nationwide. Even saw a possible position in Afghanistan. Odd though it was a 12 hour day 6 days a week shift requiring top secret clearance and a physical. It also mentioned hazards which is obvious. I'm kind of tempted. Oklahoma sounds like a less dangerous alternative.
| 473 |
soxfan4life Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:02:17am |
re: #472 Gus 802
Thanks. I'll take that under consideration. I have been starting to look nationwide. Even saw a possible position in Afghanistan. Odd though it was a 12 hour day 6 days a week shift requiring top secret clearance and a physical. It also mentioned hazards which is obvious. I'm kind of tempted. Oklahoma sounds like a less dangerous alternative.
Lots of work in the Fort Hood area and the cost of living is reasonable too.
| 474 |
soxfan4life Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:03:06am |
re: #471 funky chicken
High speed rail is huge expensive, and this country is, well, huge. I think the advocates forget that simple fact sometimes.
Forget, or overlook because it doesn't work for them?
| 475 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:03:17am |
re: #471 funky chicken
It's been true for the last 20-30 years, but the rail industry hasn't been hyping it until fairly recently with all this attention on going 'green'...rail is the 'greenest' way to ship goods. Even with 35 year old diesels hacking up a proverbial lung, each car in that train they're hauling takes anywhere from 3-5 trucks off of the road.
| 476 |
Gus Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:05:05am |
re: #475 Fenway_Nation
It's been true for the last 20-30 years, but the rail industry hasn't been hyping it until fairly recently with all this attention on going 'green'...rail is the 'greenest' way to ship goods. Even with 35 year old diesels hacking up a proverbial lung, each car in that train they're hauling takes anywhere from 3-5 trucks off of the road.
I bet even a coal fired steam locomotive would be more efficient.
| 477 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:08:07am |
re: #476 Gus 802
Not neccecarily- the old steamers were far more labor-instensive and had to stop to take on water something like once every 200 miles. Might be better suited for short-haul duties in that instance, but there's a reason they were replaced by diesel.
| 478 |
austin_blue Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:12:03am |
re: #454 austin_blue
Perhaps those railroads that have transported coal could upgrade their tracks to TGVs?
You've demonstrated your ignorance of the topic with that response alone. Alot of the smaller railways are lucky to afford a secondhand GP40-2 diesel locomotive in this economy, but they're going to convert to a multibillion dollar high-speed TGV-like rail line in the blink of an eye?
You sound like the chief spokesman for the horse carriage industry in 1903.
How does that feel?
Refresh my memory...was it the automakers that drove the horse carriage makers out of business or the government?
Thank you for pointing out my ignorance! I really appreciate it!
Here's a prediction. In thirty years, coal will not be a source of electric generation. Nuclear, solar, and wind will have replaced it. Whatever those rail lines did in the past will have to be shifted to new profit making models. I will also suggest that in thirty years, oil will be so expensive (given crashing production in places like Mexico and the former Soviet states) that the standard concept of the individual gasoline powered car for the average consumer in the US will be a thing of the past. To keep suburbia alive will require electric cars and a massive increase in public transportation infrastructure.
Our present suburban lifestyle is built on cheap oil. The basis of that model is coming to an end. When transportation costs exceed the income of the commuter, changes must be made. Hence the switchover to a public transportation model vs. the lone commuter.
| 479 |
funky chicken Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:12:10am |
Here's one quick google search for OK City jobs:
[Link: oklahoma.city.jobs.com...]
| 480 |
Gus Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:12:19am |
re: #477 Fenway_Nation
Not neccecarily- the old steamers were far more labor-instensive and had to stop to take on water something like once every 200 miles. Might be better suited for short-haul duties in that instance, but there's a reason they were replaced by diesel.
True, I didn't take the water stop into consideration.
Time to hit the sack. Was reminded of Lonesome Whistle.
I temped for Southern Pacific ROW department many years ago.
Good night.
| 481 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:12:26am |
re: #477 Fenway_Nation
Not neccecarily- the old steamers were far more labor-instensive and had to stop to take on water something like once every 200 miles. Might be better suited for short-haul duties in that instance, but there's a reason they were replaced by diesel.
Indeed. A truly green idea would be more efficient diesels. That would much further than any cap-and-trade could be.
| 482 |
Dark_Falcon Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:14:59am |
I'm tired and I need to get to bed. But first I want to commend everyone one this thread. We have had a fierce debate, but the snark was kept to a low amount and there were no major insults thrown. We all kept to the facts. This is how debate should be.
| 483 |
austin_blue Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:18:40am |
re: #481 Dark_Falcon
Indeed. A truly green idea would be more efficient diesels. That would much further than any cap-and-trade could be.
DF- Train transport is a hugely minor aspect of CO2 generation in this country.
It is orders of magnitude less than coal fired power stations.
Don't take your eyes off the prize.
| 484 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:21:49am |
re: #481 Dark_Falcon
Indeed. A truly green idea would be more efficient diesels. That would much further than any cap-and-trade could be.
GE Claims they're way ahead of the curve with their 4400 HP ES44AC GEVO series...and last I heard, all six of the Continent's freigh-haulers were buying them up like hotcakes. This displaces several older, less fuel efficient (but still serviceable) diesels that would likely go for sale to different reigonals/short haul lines, get cut up for scap or put into storage as part of a 'surge fleet' to deal with unexpectedly high traffic levels.
Assuming cap & trade passes, the 'Big Six' (Union Pacific, CSX Transportation, Canadian National, Norfolk Southern, BNSF and Canadian Pacific) will be fine. I'm more concerned about the hundreds of smaller short-haul and reigonal railways that interchange with the aforementioned six. And I'm just providing examples of how much of their traffic base will erode- I hadn't even taken into account if the Gov't decides that their motive power gets no exemption from cap and trade.
| 485 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:22:43am |
re: #483 austin_blue
And exactly how does that coal arrive at the power plant?
| 486 |
Bagua Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:22:45am |
re: #478 austin_blue
Your prediction of peak oil in 30 years assumes no new discoveries, no new production coming on line. We are headed in that direction with current policies.
But open up the US to domestic exploration and drilling, and 30 years from now that production will still be ramping up. In 30 years we would be smack in the start of an age of prosperity and energy independence.
I prefer my prediction, but the powers that be are insisting on making yours a self fulfilling prophesy.
| 487 |
austin_blue Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:23:50am |
re: #484 Fenway_Nation
GE Claims they're way ahead of the curve with their 4400 HP ES44AC GEVO series...and last I heard, all six of the Continent's freigh-haulers were buying them up like hotcakes. This displaces several older, less fuel efficient (but still serviceable) diesels that would likely go for sale to different reigonals/short haul lines, get cut up for scap or put into storage as part of a 'surge fleet' to deal with unexpectedly high traffic levels.
Assuming cap & trade passes, the 'Big Six' (Union Pacific, CSX Transportation, Canadian National, Norfolk Southern, BNSF and Canadian Pacific) will be fine. I'm more concerned about the hundreds of smaller short-haul and reigonal railways that interchange with the aforementioned six. And I'm just providing examples of how much of their traffic base will erode- I hadn't even taken into account if the Gov't decides that their motive power gets no exemption from cap and trade.
As I said, this is beside the point:
DF- Train transport is a hugely minor aspect of CO2 generation in this country.
It is orders of magnitude less than coal fired power stations.
Don't take your eyes off the prize.
| 489 |
austin_blue Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:25:29am |
re: #485 Fenway_Nation
And exactly how does that coal arrive at the power plant?
It doesn't matter. Coal is a dead fuel in thirty years.
| 490 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:26:57am |
re: #487 austin_blue
Consider that railroads would be the canary in the coal mine for the rest of the transportation industry. I'm not sayin rails will be the only thing affected by this- just that I can offer more informed input on the adverse affect the gov't arbitrarily taxing your shippers out of business and deciding your means of transport isn't 'green' enough than I could for...say oil and LNG tankers or airfreight.
| 491 |
Bagua Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:34:40am |
re: #489 austin_blue
It doesn't matter. Coal is a dead fuel in thirty years.
Or it could be just hitting it's stride, one can't predict the future with any confidence. Coal is a huge domestic resource, "dead in thirty years" doesn't appear realistic.
| 492 |
shai_au Sat, Oct 31, 2009 3:49:17am |
I have absolutely no idea about American sports teams, but I found that video hilarious. Maybe if I knew who the Clippers were, I'd be more against it, but I doubt it. I'm quite difficult to offend, really.
| 493 |
Digital Display Sat, Oct 31, 2009 4:12:06am |
re: #492 shai_au
I have absolutely no idea about American sports teams, but I found that video hilarious. Maybe if I knew who the Clippers were, I'd be more against it, but I doubt it. I'm quite difficult to offend, really.
Don't feel bad..No one really believes the Clippers are a real American sports team.
| 494 |
oh_dude Sat, Oct 31, 2009 11:46:41am |
As a closet Clippers fan, I am truly offended. BOYCOTT ONION!
| 495 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Oct 31, 2009 12:48:51pm |
re: #487 austin_blue
As I said, this is beside the point:
DF- Train transport is a hugely minor aspect of CO2 generation in this country.
It is orders of magnitude less than coal fired power stations.
Don't take your eyes off the prize.
I know I'm extremely belated with this, but Christ- you're very generous with snuffing out other people's livelyhoods.
Khal Wimpo (free internal organs upon request!)
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