Conservatives Furiously Spinning

PoliticsNovember 2009 • Views: 2,802

Over at RedState, the all-spin zone, CEO Erick Erickson is trying his best to take the NY-23 loss, dress it up in a cheap suit, and call it a “victory:” In NY-23, Conservatives Win.

Erickson’s “point,” if it can be called that, is that the far right “sent a message,” scared the hell out of the GOP, and “crushed” the official GOP NY-23 candidate Dede Scozzafava. Therefore it’s a victory, even though their candidate, uh, lost.

Meanwhile, Michael Steele enthusiastically declares a ‘Republican renaissance’.

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245 comments

Baier Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:31:55am

NY - 23 was a victory. The best candidate left in the race won.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:33:50am

NY-23 was a failure no doubt about it, but GOP wins in Virginia and New Jersey are more important. Much of Obama's coalition stayed home. Tactics used in those two states will prove greatly important next year. If NY-23 showed how things should not be, the Old Dominion showed how we should campaign.

TheQuis Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:33:55am

I guess we'll hear the President proclaim victory in NJ for taking a candidate with a 30% approval rating and boosting him to 44% of the vote.

badger1970 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:34:18am

Three goldfish fish in a bowl. Two goldfish fight until one of them dies. The victor, exhausted, is easily beaten by the third.

simoom Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:34:53am

I like how Erickson wraps up with a little blackmailing:

For all intents and purposes, NY-23 is a trial run for Florida. And in Florida, the conservative candidate is operating inside the GOP. If John Cornyn and the NRSC do not want to see Florida go the way of NY-23, they better stand down.

jaunte Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:35:08am

Michael Steele enthusiastically declares a ‘Republican renaissance’.

Everyone into your 14th century garb:
[Link: www.renaissancecostumesclothing.com...]

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:35:18am

Why is the position that:

Sending a message > achieving effective government

even remotely considered valid? They'll send a ton of messages while the Democrats laugh all the way to the majority.

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:35:29am

re: #4 badger1970

Three goldfish fish in a bowl. Two goldfish fight until one of them dies. The victor, exhausted, is easily beaten by the third.

Goldfish fight?

Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:35:52am

re: #4 badger1970

Three goldfish fish in a bowl. Two goldfish fight until one of them dies. The victor, exhausted, is easily beaten by the third.

Not goldfish. You are thinking of Betas, also called Siamese Fighting Fish. Very beautiful, but very bad-tempered.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:36:23am

re: #6 jaunte

Everyone into your 14th century garb:
[Link: www.renaissancecostumesclothing.com...]

SMACK!

filetandrelease Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:36:30am

Yesterday was a great day for the conservative movement. NY 23 would have been icing on the cake. As it is, NY 23 was very close, and hopefully a wake up call for GOP elites.

Charles Johnson Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:36:44am

Rush Limbaugh says: "If the party had gotten behind Hoffman from the beginning he would have won going away."

Joe G. Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:37:26am

From RedState: "First, the GOP now must recognize it will either lose without conservatives or will win with conservatives."

Isn't that the exact opposite of what happened in NY-23?

jaunte Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:37:58am

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

Wherefore smackest, Dark sirrah?

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:38:25am

re: #12 Charles

Rush Limbaugh says: "If the party had gotten behind Hoffman from the beginning he would have won going away."

Which actually probably true, given the results. It just sidesteps they key issues of *why* the party didn't select Hoffman from the beginning.

fizzlogic Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:38:34am

I'm hoping they'll do it to Crist down here in Florida too. As in NY23 only true Reagan conservatives can win--in landslides. As Rush Limbaugh would say, the pro-life position is what ties it all together, FTW.

Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:39:15am

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

NY-23 was a failure no doubt about it, but GOP wins in Virginia and New Jersey are more important. Much of Obama's coalition stayed home. Tactics used in those two states will prove greatly important next year. If NY-23 showed how things should not be, the Old Dominion showed how we should campaign.

Really... you mean something else happened yesterday besides NY 23. Well, blow me over.

badger1970 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:39:26am

re: #8 SanFranciscoZionist

While proclaiming myself wise, I became dumb. It might as well been a goldfish fight since that race was a fish bowl. What lesson the GOP takes from this is soon to be lost.

lawhawk Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:39:33am

Steele can claim a victory given that the GOP now has two more governors under its banner - NJ and VA. Both were blue state territory for the past decade. NJ went to Christie despite Corzine having outspent him and with President Obama coming to Corzine's side too many times to count (and neighboring Democrat Bill Thompson wondering if just one visit by President Obama could have helped with turnout to give him a win over Bloomberg).

NY-23 is going to get spin-cycled to death, and nearly all of it will be wrong. It was a special election with extenuating circumstances that aren't likely to be repeated. This is a seat that will be up for election again in November 2010, which means Owens will face another GOP candidate that has to survive an actual primary next year. Scozzafava wont be that candidate. Don't expect Hoffman to be at it either.

There should be serious discontent among the GOP in NYS over how they handled NY-23, and they should be asking themselves how to improve the grassroots and bring in candidates to represent the districts where they actually live (Hoffman lived outside NY-23 btw). The conservatives in NYS may think they flexed their muscle and that they won, but it's a phyric victory when you don't actually win the seat, and you lose it for the GOP candidate however flawed she was.

However, the loss of the seat is tempered by the fact that it's all too likely to be a one-year blip on the district, and a major win by Christie in NJ shows that moderates and the right wing can get together to back candidates (Christie got support from everyone from Palin to Gingrich - who were on opposite sides in NY-23).

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:39:41am

re: #16 trendsurfer

I'm hoping they'll do it to Crist down here in Florida too. As in NY23 only true Reagan conservatives can win--in landslides. As Rush Limbaugh would say, the pro-life position is what ties it all together, FTW.

Charlie hasn't won anything yet and his radio ads are full of shit.

Baier Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:39:42am

re: #12 Charles

Rush Limbaugh says: "If the party had gotten behind Hoffman from the beginning he would have won going away."

What party is Limbaugh talking about? Hoffman wasn't the republican candidate. 2010 is not going to be pretty.

Velvet Elvis Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:39:57am

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

NY-23 was a failure no doubt about it, but GOP wins in Virginia and New Jersey are more important. Much of Obama's coalition stayed home. Tactics used in those two states will prove greatly important next year. If NY-23 showed how things should not be, the Old Dominion showed how we should campaign.

What tactics? Both democratic candidates sucked. Deeds ran against Obama which suppressed the youth vote. Corzine is is an embarrassment to Democrats in general.

The only lesson to be learned here is for the Democrats. Don't field shitty candidates.

Summer Seale Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:40:14am

"...and if you shut your eyes very tightly, you can just imagine the tooth fairy and a unicorn coming to see you tonight!"

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:40:20am

re: #13 Joe G.

From RedState: "First, the GOP now must recognize it will either lose without conservatives or will win with conservatives."

Isn't that the exact opposite of what happened in NY-23?

Not by their logic. RedState seems to be proposing a suicide pact. Their view is that the GOP was not "with" conservatives in this election, and therefore lost (the fact that conservatives lost too either didn't register or isn't a factor).

Talk about cut off your nose to spite your face.

I suppose the GOP could respond by saying: "Conservatives now must recognize they will either lose without the GOP or will win with GOP"

Girth Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:40:23am

re: #5 simoom

I like how Erickson wraps up with a little blackmailing:

If John Cornyn and the NRSC do not want to see Florida go the way of NY-23, they better stand down.

And this is what pisses me off so much. These people are wailing and gnashing their teeth about Obama being a socialist and ruining this country, but they are the ones who are going to hand the democrats solid majorities on a silver platter for a long time to come, and that's where the real damage will be done.

solomonpanting Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:41:06am

re: #4 badger1970

Three goldfish fish in a bowl. Two goldfish fight until one of them dies. The victor, exhausted, is easily beaten by the third.

And given The Goldfinger.

rollwave87 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:42:16am

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

NY-23 was a failure no doubt about it, but GOP wins in Virginia and New Jersey are more important. Much of Obama's coalition stayed home. Tactics used in those two states will prove greatly important next year. If NY-23 showed how things should not be, the Old Dominion showed how we should campaign.

I agree with you in principle (ie: the message the GOP should take from this is to run moderates and marginalize the 'baggers), but it's really hard for me as an enlightened, 21st century Republican to get excited about a graduate of Pat Robertson university (in virginia) and a family research council/mark levin endorsed tub of creepiness ( in nj). especially in new jersey, it was really a corzine/dem party loss. Not to sound totally like a downer, if you go across the Hudson from NJ to CT, my home state, Gov. Rell and Rob Simmons (who is challenging Dodd and may face a primary fight from 'freedom works') are real examples of genuine, electable in non-SoCon states Republicans.

TheQuis Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:43:08am

re: #22 Conservative Moonbat

What tactics? Both democratic candidates sucked. Deeds ran against Obama which suppressed the youth vote. Corzine is is an embarrassment to Democrats in general.

The only lesson to be learned here is for the Democrats. Don't field shitty candidates.

That has been GREATLY ignored. Corzine outperformed his approval rating and he didn't even become competitive in the polls until Obama started holding rally's for him and Christie started getting heat from his past AG dealings.

badger1970 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:43:08am

re: #25 Girth

The democrats do have a solid majority and still can't do squat.

Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:43:24am

Meanwhile, Michael Steele enthusiastically declares a ‘Republican renaissance’.

Call me when there is a Goldwater renaissance.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:43:43am

re: #17 Walter L. Newton

Really... you mean something else happened yesterday besides NY 23. Well, blow me over.

Yes. Some will focus too much on what happened in NY-23. That's not the biggest story. The challenge now is to build GOP state organizations and be ready when the Tea Party crowd comes calling. The NY state party was disorganized and got caught by surprise. We must be ready so that we Won't Get Fooled Again.

Youtube Video

watching you tiny alien kittens are Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:44:26am

re: #5 simoom

I like how Erickson wraps up with a little blackmailing:

F U Erickson, Crist is going to win the primary easily and is a good Republican candidate. Although I'm sure that will not stop you from running slimey attack ads against him and again opening the door wider for a Democrat challenger. You people are friggin insane...

rollwave87 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:44:58am

re: #15 EastSider

Which actually probably true, given the results. It just sidesteps they key issues of *why* the party didn't select Hoffman from the beginning.

I don't think it's true at all. the voters in NY23 weren't going to vote for some far right troglodyte. whether or not newt Gingrich supported him early or late. Dede, however, most certainly wouldve won if it weren't 4 Hoffman. the adverse is not true.

subsailor68 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:45:06am

Therefore it’s a victory, even though their candidate, uh, lost.

Uh, what?

Kind of reminds me of Custer's last words: "Hey fellas, look on the bright side!"

filetandrelease Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:45:26am

re: #32 ausador

F U Erickson, Crist is going to win the primary easily and is a good Republican candidate. Although I'm sure that will not stop you from running slimey attack ads against him and again opening the door wider for a Democrat challenger. You people are friggin insane...

He is not getting my vote.

Kragar Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:45:40am

re: #30 Sharmuta

Call me when there is a Goldwater renaissance.

I'm waiting for someone to nail a thesis of proposed reformations to the GOP HQ doors.

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:45:43am

re: #18 badger1970

While proclaiming myself wise, I became dumb. It might as well been a goldfish fight since that race was a fish bowl. What lesson the GOP takes from this is soon to be lost.

OK. I've just never seen a goldfish be aggressive toward anything but fish food flakes.

Your point, however, is taken.

KernelPanic Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:45:57am

Seeing Hoffman trounced was not enough to offset the disappoint in what happend in Maine.

Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:46:48am

re: #19 lawhawk

Bottom line is, there was solid GOP wins yesterday, and you can't take that away from them.

Both sides can spin NY 23 anyway they want, but it's mot going to minimize other victories.

And on a more local scale, there has been wins for conservative ideas. One example, a 3 person school board was elected in Douglas County Colorado, and these people are in support of school vouchers. You know Colorado, that blue state Colorado.

All in all, away from the sensational "nuts" in the GOP, a solid foundation has been building for rational conservative values.

Rush and Beck are like the clowns at the circus, we laugh at them, but we really came to see the real star, the tiger trainer.

Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:46:55am

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm waiting for someone to nail a thesis of proposed reformations to the GOP HQ doors.

Can we just brush off the Contract with America for now?

Ben Hur Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:46:55am

Conservatives are spinning?

I guess if you think that a congressman from NY-23, only discovered a couple of weeks ago, is more powerful and relevant than state governors.

On that, the Dems have turned into butter.

simoom Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:47:16am

Looks like the Italian rendition trial wrapped up:

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

An Italian judge has convicted 23 Americans - all but one of them CIA agents - and two Italian secret agents of the 2003 kidnap of a Muslim cleric.
The agents were accused of abducting Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, known as Abu Omar, from Milan and sending him to Egypt, where he was allegedly tortured.

The trial, which began in June 2007, is the first involving the CIA's so-called "extraordinary rendition" programme.

Two Italian agents received 3 year prison terms, 22 of the Americans were given 5 year terms and the ex CIA Milan station chief was sentenced to 8 years.

lawhawk Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:47:18am

re: #27 rollwave87

Christie's campaign was to do something about the insane property taxes here in NJ. That resonates throughout the state since Corzine ran and won his first term on the grounds of doing something about.

At the end of his first term, property taxes are higher, and we now have a higher sales and use tax to boot. Higher taxes, higher state spending, and Corzine was contemplating higher gas tax, higher tolls, etc.

All Corzine was doing was proposing tax and spend. Christie tapped into the anti-Corzine sentiment by saying he wouldn't raise taxes at the drop of a hat. Tough decisions are going to have to be made about programs that have to be cut and spending reduced - which will get the media darlings and unions in a tizzy since they're the ones on the chopping block.

Christie also benefited from the anti-corruption stance he took while US Attorney. Corzine threw all kinds of money at candidates who turned out to be on the take. People finally got sick and tired of that nonsense and hope that Christie can do something about that.

Corzine was an awful candidate- and an even worse governor. Obama should have seen the writing on the wall and reduced his exposure to the downside, and yet Obama kept making more appearances with Corzine, taping robocalls and ads for Corzine, hoping that Obama's positives would carry the day.

They didn't. The anti-Corzine sentiment won the day, and Christie now has to clean up the mess that is the NJ state budget.

webevintage Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:47:25am

re: #28 TheQuis

That has been GREATLY ignored. Corzine outperformed his approval rating and he didn't even become competitive in the polls until Obama started holding rally's for him and Christie started getting heat from his past AG dealings.

That's because it would ruin the "OMG!!11!!! Obama DROOLS REPUBLICANS DROOL!!!1111!!" meme that the talking heads have decided it the story of the day.

Republicans did a better job on the state races, but in races that involved sending folks to DC the Dems won.

Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:47:56am

re: #41 Ben Hur

Conservatives are spinning?

They're not really conservatives. They're far-right populists.

Kragar Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:48:14am

re: #40 Sharmuta

Can we just brush off the Contract with America for now?

The current GOP heads are more interested in commandments than contracts nowadays.

Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:48:34am

re: #36 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm waiting for someone to nail a thesis of proposed reformations to the GOP HQ doors.

Witlessberg.

rollwave87 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:49:59am

re: #43 lawhawk

Christie's campaign was to do something about the insane property taxes here in NJ. That resonates throughout the state since Corzine ran and won his first term on the grounds of doing something about.

At the end of his first term, property taxes are higher, and we now have a higher sales and use tax to boot. Higher taxes, higher state spending, and Corzine was contemplating higher gas tax, higher tolls, etc.

All Corzine was doing was proposing tax and spend. Christie tapped into the anti-Corzine sentiment by saying he wouldn't raise taxes at the drop of a hat. Tough decisions are going to have to be made about programs that have to be cut and spending reduced - which will get the media darlings and unions in a tizzy since they're the ones on the chopping block.

Christie also benefited from the anti-corruption stance he took while US Attorney. Corzine threw all kinds of money at candidates who turned out to be on the take. People finally got sick and tired of that nonsense and hope that Christie can do something about that.

Corzine was an awful candidate- and an even worse governor. Obama should have seen the writing on the wall and reduced his exposure to the downside, and yet Obama kept making more appearances with Corzine, taping robocalls and ads for Corzine, hoping that Obama's positives would carry the day.

They didn't. The anti-Corzine sentiment won the day, and Christie now has to clean up the mess that is the NJ state budget.

fair enought. I definitely defer to you re: garden state economics. I just get a bad feeling from Christie, to be honest. I'm open minded about it tho and maybe he'll surprise me. he better not get rid of the cheap gas y'all have...

Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:50:05am

re: #27 rollwave87

I agree with you in principle (ie: the message the GOP should take from this is to run moderates and marginalize the 'baggers), but it's really hard for me as an enlightened, 21st century Republican to get excited about a graduate of Pat Robertson university (in virginia) and a family research council/mark levin endorsed tub of creepiness ( in nj). especially in new jersey, it was really a corzine/dem party loss. Not to sound totally like a downer, if you go across the Hudson from NJ to CT, my home state, Gov. Rell and Rob Simmons (who is challenging Dodd and may face a primary fight from 'freedom works') are real examples of genuine, electable in non-SoCon states Republicans.

You don't have to get excited. It must be said was part of the recipe for GOP success in those state was to run candidates who were acceptable to socons while not being off-putting to moderates. National parties are coalitions and building ours will involve making compromises with social conservatives who are willing to compromise.

Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:50:07am

re: #46 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The current GOP heads are more interested in commandments than contracts nowadays.

Thou shall not vote Rino.

subsailor68 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:50:22am

re: #47 Decatur Deb

Witlessberg.

LOL! Just as long as they're not nailed to the door by Martin Truther.

;-)

TheQuis Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:51:08am

Everyone keeps saying "Larger Democrat Majorities, Larger Democrat Majorities" when the truth is folks who would be Republicans a generation ago are now Democrats. They're still voting many issues very Republican-esque but they have a D by their name. Do you think the true liberals of the democratic party want a public option? EFF NO, they want Single Payer. The Public Option is the compromise and the Blue Dogs, and Conservadems are fighting to take that away. The fiscon Republicans are alive and well, they just caucus with the Democrats.

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:51:08am

re: #33 rollwave87

I don't think it's true at all. the voters in NY23 weren't going to vote for some far right troglodyte. whether or not newt Gingrich supported him early or late. Dede, however, most certainly wouldve won if it weren't 4 Hoffman. the adverse is not true.

I won't go so far as to call it a certainty, but I would call it likely. Owens was up 49-46 (at last count I saw, w/ +85% precincts reporting). Factor in that Scozz STILL got 5% of vote even though she dropped out, actively endorsed Owens, and that there were ads run by GOP against Hoffman. With some nat'l party money for messaging and marketing, some coaching as to the actual issues of the district, and an endorsement from a ranking moderate GOP leader, it isn't unreasonable to think that Hoffman would have won.

All that said, I don't think he SHOULD have won. Just that he COULD have.

Kragar Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:51:36am

re: #50 Sharmuta

Thou shall not vote Rino.

Thou shalt not hold us accountable for the things we screwed up in the past.

oldegeezr Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:52:13am

The leader of the Republican Party just informed the faithful that the loss in NY-23 was insignificant because...

1] The GOP won the highest percentage of votes ever...assuming you add Hoff and Dede’s votes, together?.
2] There was no primary...this would indict the Republicans, including Newt Gingrich.
3] They initially nominated a horrible candidate in Scuzzy.
4] Conservatism didn’t loose it was the Republicans.

OK, Rush, Hoffman wasn’t a socon he was a Republican...?

rollwave87 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:52:23am

re: #49 Dark_Falcon

true. As a republican it's not about loving every candidate. I guess the big tent idea does go both ways...

JamesWI Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:53:03am

Yep, giving the Democrats a seat they haven't held since RS McCain's favorite form of labor (forced) was still legal in the US is definitely a victory.

Meanwhile, at Hotair, I see a bunch blaming the win on Scozzafava. Yep, she's the reason why, in a district where no Democrat received more than 36% of the vote in the past 5 or more elections (hell, they didn't even run a candidate against McHugh in 2002) won this election with nearly 50% of the vote.

Don't worry Dems, it looks like the Glenn Beck crowd is still clueless and will continue on in their purge. I hope you can do something productive with your upcoming decades of one-party rule.

filetandrelease Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:53:13am

re: #53 EastSider

I won't go so far as to call it a certainty, but I would call it likely. Owens was up 49-46 (at last count I saw, w/ +85% precincts reporting). Factor in that Scozz STILL got 5% of vote even though she dropped out, actively endorsed Owens, and that there were ads run by GOP against Hoffman. With some nat'l party money for messaging and marketing, some coaching as to the actual issues of the district, and an endorsement from a ranking moderate GOP leader, it isn't unreasonable to think that Hoffman would have won.

All that said, I don't think he SHOULD have won. Just that he COULD have.

Dede's endorsement alone might have swung it. But her true color came out on that one.

lawhawk Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:53:40am

re: #28 TheQuis

Corzine's polling improved because he started spending even more aggressively on attack ads than earlier in the year when Christie and Lonegan were battling for the GOP nomination. Obama's influence was there, but clearly insufficient to help a deeply flawed and despised candidate win.

In fact, Corzine's favorable/unfavorable ratings remained solidly negative throughout the campaign.

Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:54:08am

re: #54 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thou shalt not hold us accountable for the things we screwed up in the past.

That one is a commandment for both parties.

Ben Hur Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:56:26am

re: #54 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thou shalt not hold us accountable for the things we screwed up in the past.

The ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen.

-Winston Churchill on the necessary qualities to be a politician.

bratwurst Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:57:12am

re: #53 EastSider

All that said, I don't think he SHOULD have won. Just that he COULD have.

It's possible...but in a more traditional campaign he might have also had to have shown up for a debate and show off that dynamic personality of his too.

Baier Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:57:39am

re: #58 filetandrelease

Dede's endorsement alone might have swung it. But her true color came out on that one.

She did the right thing. A Hoffman win would have been a disaster for those of us toward the middle, and especially those that completely reject the social engineering wing of the GOP.

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:57:40am

re: #59 lawhawk

Corzine's polling improved because he started spending even more aggressively on attack ads than earlier in the year when Christie and Lonegan were battling for the GOP nomination. Obama's influence was there, but clearly insufficient to help a deeply flawed and despised candidate win.

In fact, Corzine's favorable/unfavorable ratings remained solidly negative throughout the campaign.

Honestly, for all the money he spent on attack ads he could have just put the cash in a brown paper bag to get Springsteen to say that "He's the man" while he's on stage at the Meadowlands. That would about lock it up in NJ.

_RememberTonyC Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:57:51am

glenn beck called in sick for his radio show this morning. i wonder if that would have happened if NY 23 had gone the other way?

just askin'

filetandrelease Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:58:22am

re: #62 bratwurst

It's possible...but in a more traditional campaign he might have also had to have shown up for a debate and show off that dynamic personality of his too.

He did debate his opponents and offered challenges of further debates.

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:59:12am

re: #65 _RememberTonyC

glenn beck called in sick for his radio show this morning. i wonder if that would have happened if NY 23 had gone the other way?

just askin'

He did the first hour then left.

Kragar Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:59:43am

Iran protesters hijack 30th anniversary of US embassy seizure

Iran's opposition has come out in force to mount some of the biggest street protests since June's disputed elections in an attempt to overshadow official rallies marking the 30th anniversary of the storming of the US embassy in Tehran.

Thousands of demonstrators poured into the capital to defy riot police, revolutionary guards and Basij militiamen wielding clubs and kicking protesters, as well as firing teargas and – according to some unconfirmed reports – bullets.

Video footage on the internet showed supporters of Mir-Hossein Mousavi, who claims he won the presidential race, stamping on images of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme leader, and denouncing him as a "murderer". Others criticised the president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Many wore wearing green scarves, ribbons or wristbands.

Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:59:43am

re: #54 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thou shalt not hold us accountable for the things we screwed up in the past.

Thous shalt not covet thy house member's wife, or intern's ass. (Both parties.)

Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:59:50am

re: #65 _RememberTonyC

glenn beck called in sick for his radio show this morning. i wonder if that would have happened if NY 23 had gone the other way?

just askin'

It all perception. Progressive are going to play up the idiots like Rush, Beck, Paul, the Tea Parties, the 9/12 folks, and play them up as the foundation of the party. Well, they are not. And the wins yesterday (and the losses) prove that. Where the idiots rushed in, they lost. The real base of the GOP got their wins yesterday.

Political Atheist Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:59:57am

re: #67 Cannadian Club Akbar

A sick anti vaxxer? Glorious.

Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:00:02am

re: #55 oldegeezr

4] Conservatism didn’t loose it was the Republicans.

They hijacked the movement. These aren't conservatives. Barry Goldwater did not subscribe to theocracy. He supported gay rights and women's privacy.

They either don't know what a conservative is, or they're lying. Possibly both.

filetandrelease Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:00:18am

re: #63 Baier

She did the right thing. A Hoffman win would have been a disaster for those of us toward the middle, and especially those that completely reject the social engineering wing of the GOP.

I certainly reject the efforts for social engineering by the GOP. But disagree that a Hoffman win would have been bad for the GOP.

bratwurst Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:00:40am

re: #66 filetandrelease

He did debate his opponents and offered challenges of further debates.

I stand corrected...there was one debate less than a week ago.

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:00:50am

re: #71 Rightwingconspirator

A sick anti vaxxer? Glorious.

I don't think he's an anti-vaxxer.

_RememberTonyC Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:00:52am

re: #67 Cannadian Club Akbar

He did the first hour then left.

my station in CT must not carry his first hour ... I tuned in at 10:30ish EST and they said he ate too much pie and couldn't come in today.

sorry

Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:01:26am

re: #65 _RememberTonyC

glenn beck called in sick for his radio show this morning. i wonder if that would have happened if NY 23 had gone the other way?

just askin'

If there's any justice in the world, he's got H1N1. I don't want him to die or be permanent injured, but perhaps that would induce him to rethink giving anti-vaxers a platform.

Ben Hur Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:01:45am

re: #65 _RememberTonyC

glenn beck called in sick for his radio show this morning. i wonder if that would have happened if NY 23 had gone the other way?

just askin'

Where in the World Was Keith Olbermann?

MSNBC boasted that on election night they would present a "special live edition of Countdown" at 10:00 pm. But with bad news for the Democrats in Virginia and New Jersey, a funny thing happened on the way to the bonus Hour of Spin. Keith wasn't there! After a live update (not from Olby but from Lawrence O'Donnell) A-Mess-NBC ("the place for politics") proceeded to rerun the 8:00 pm showing.

Keith had obviously left the building. But why? Where in the world was Keith Olbermann? We don't know yet, but we think we have a pretty good idea:

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:01:54am

re: #76 _RememberTonyC

my station in CT must not carry his first hour ... I tuned in at 10:30ish EST and they said he ate too much pie and couldn't come in today.

sorry

It's cool. I have news talk and sports talk to choose from and the Bucs are 0-7:(

Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:02:13am

re: #71 Rightwingconspirator

A sick anti vaxxer? Glorious.

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

If there's any justice in the world, he's got H1N1. I don't want him to die or be permanent injured, but perhaps that would induce him to rethink giving anti-vaxers a platform.

GMTA

Ben Hur Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:02:41am

re: #68 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Iran protesters hijack 30th anniversary of US embassy seizure

HIJACK?

F*ck the Guardian.

karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:03:24am

SoCon line of the day : The more we lose the more we win.

Isn't that what Hamas likes to say whenever they get their asses kicked by the IDF?

Splodeydope logic.

[deleted] Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:03:27am

jaunte Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:03:30am

In other election news, some new state constitutional amendments in Texas focused on improving universities and protecting private property:

AUSTIN — State constitutional amendments to boost the University of Houston as a research institution and protect private property from government seizure were among 11 propositions approved by Texas voters on Tuesday.
Voters also enshrined the Open Beaches Act into the state Constitution by passing Proposition 9, guaranteeing public access to the sands and shoreline along the Gulf of Mexico.

Three propositions to bring greater fairness to property valuations for tax purposes — Propositions 2, 3 and 5 — also passed despite opposition claims that they opened the door to a state property tax, which has been banned by the Constitution for almost three decades.

The amendment with a significant potential local impact was Proposition 4 to establish the National Research University Fund with a goal of turning seven universities into Tier 1 research institutions like the University of Texas and Texas A&M University.[Link: www.chron.com...]

webevintage Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:03:54am

re: #67 Cannadian Club Akbar

He did the first hour then left.

I wonder if he has Swine Flu...you know since he is anti-vacs.

kilroy Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:04:03am

Looks like Sarah's "majority" is only around 45%; a pretty firm anchor.

martinsmithy Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:04:09am

Michelle Malkin is really shrieking over at her pulpit too. She's becoming as unhinged as Geller.

Political Atheist Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:04:14am

re: #75 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'm not going to link to a very LGF unfriendly site here, but Kos has entries quoting Rush and Beck as anti vaxx.

_RememberTonyC Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:04:16am

re: #79 Cannadian Club Akbar

It's cool. I have news talk and sports talk to choose from and the Bucs are 0-7:(

sorry about your Bucs ...

subsailor68 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:04:45am

re: #78 Ben Hur

Where in the World is Keith Olbermann?

Love it! You know, if you put Keith in a striped sweater and a ski cap, he does look eerily like Waldo. The difference is, people actually try to find Waldo.

karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:05:21am

re: #86 kilroy

Looks like Sarah's "majority" is only around 45%; a pretty firm anchor.

An anchor chained to the feet of the GOP as it goes for a leisurely swim in deep waters.

oldegeezr Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:05:24am

re: #72 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, I was paraphrasing El Rushbo's excuses.

Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:06:20am

re: #82 karmic_inquisitor

SoCon line of the day : The more we lose the more we win.

Isn't that what Hamas likes to say whenever they get their asses kicked by the IDF?

Splodeydope logic.

And who made that statement? Link?

filetandrelease Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:06:25am

re: #91 karmic_inquisitor

An anchor chained to the feet of the GOP as it goes for a leisurely swim in deep waters.

Yesterdays results would suggest otherwise.

lawhawk Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:06:31am

The most idiotic spin of the night has to come from Pelosi, who thinks that losing two statehouses in Blue States is a victory.

The Democrats are also facing some in-house trouble because of the way that Thompson lost in NYC. Had Democrats backed Thompson, he might have been able to carry the day against Bloomberg. That got Rep. Andrew Weiner to blast the White House, which retorted that Weiner should have run instead. Ouch.

webevintage Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:06:48am

re: #83 _RememberTonyC

knowing keith (and I do), he was "massaging himself" while looking at his derek jeter rookie card.

Isn't his father very ill and that is why he has been off the show so much lately?

karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:06:57am

re: #12 Charles

Rush Limbaugh says: "If the party had gotten behind Hoffman from the beginning he would have won going away."

Well that settles it then.

RINOs - gather your papers and report to the train stations.

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:06:58am

these people don't have the best interests of the GOP at heart - only the interests of their own small clique.

Theocracy
"shrink the state to a postage stamp"
Guns, baby guns.
etc

They find someone who is the total package and run them.

the only purity test for any GOP local board should be the answer to this question when faced with the dilemma...

run a Wingnut and fight a dirty turnout battle or
run a moderate and win the race on a spread of 10-15%

High risk of losing to someone who will caucus Dem 100% of the time or run a Republican who will caucus R 80% of the time... if they'd rather lose, then say good bye

Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:07:04am

re: #92 oldegeezr

Sharmuta, I was paraphrasing El Rushbo's excuses.

I know- I was responding to it, and though it would bee rude if I didn't link back to your comment quoting it. Didn't mean to make it look like you were saying that, and I was disagreeing with you- I'm disagreeing with Rush. Sorry for any confusion.

100

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:08:30am

So lemme get this straight

In New Jersey, a very liberal state, an incumbant gov. outspends his opponent 2(+)-1 and has the sitting President make at least 6 appearances for him and still loses
In Virginia the top 3 spots in state all go to Republicans by big margins

SO ,,, in NY 23, a nobody (not even "from" the district) gets into the fray leass than 60 days before the election, runs an obscure 3rd party campaign, is beat up by both the repub and dem candidates, then has the repub candidate throw her support behind the dem after she drops out yet he loses by less than 6% and this proves ???

(and yes ,, I know the seat has been in the repub category for eons)(((but this goof Hoffman is far from a repub)))

Paraphrasing Mark Twain

"Reports of the death of the republican party have been greatly exaggerated!"

101

Political Atheist Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:08:36am

re: #80 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, a few days in bed and an H1N1 diagnosis would be just the attitude adjustment called for.

102

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:09:47am

re: #100 sattv4u2

Hoffman switched affiliations to run as a Con.

103

jayzee Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:10:06am

Steele did what was expected. And he's right and will be right as long as he starts to muscle the fringe right as opposed to letting them muscle him. They took a loss, will scramble, lose contributions while the mainstream GOP, can make a comeback if they don't screw it up.

104

Political Atheist Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:10:08am

re: #97 karmic_inquisitor

California republicans will welcome you.

105

badger1970 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:11:05am

re: #101 Rightwingconspirator

Along with 7-up, saltines and Ny-qil. (paging SP's sars remedy)

106

The Sanity Inspector Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:11:25am

re: #24 EastSider

Not by their logic. RedState seems to be proposing a suicide pact. Their view is that the GOP was not "with" conservatives in this election, and therefore lost (the fact that conservatives lost too either didn't register or isn't a factor).

Talk about cut off your nose to spite your face.

I suppose the GOP could respond by saying: "Conservatives now must recognize they will either lose without the GOP or will win with GOP"

Mutiny On The Titanic

107

Ojoe Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:11:31am

Down with both major political parties. Pffiibbiittth. ™

Down with "spin." Pffiibbiittth. ™

108

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:11:37am

re: #100 sattv4u2

the media shine is off Obama and added to Corzine screwing up, a lacklustre Virgina candidate and midterm voters doing what midterm voters do... it all adds up.

The sum of those parts doesn't a GOP resurgence make, yet.

109

solomonpanting Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:00am

re: #100 sattv4u2

SO ,,, in NY 23, a nobody (not even "from" the district) gets into the fray leass than 60 days before the election, runs an obscure 3rd party campaign, is beat up by both the repub and dem candidates, then has the repub candidate throw her support behind the dem after she drops out yet he loses by less than 6% and this proves ???

Actually, 3%.

110

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:08am

re: #107 Ojoe

Up With Ojoe...

111

FrogMarch Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:09am

I think it's pretty clear that both sides are attempting to spin the results. Nothing new.

112

lawhawk Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:19am

re: #102 wozzablog

Watch for Scozzafava to switch parties in the next few weeks as well. Even if she doesn't switch parties, watch for her to lose her perks in the Assembly, where she was a minority whip. That position comes with a salary bump.

113

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:28am

re: #100 sattv4u2

So lemme get this straight

In New Jersey, a very liberal state, an incumbant gov. outspends his opponent 2(+)-1 and has the sitting President make at least 6 appearances for him and still loses
In Virginia the top 3 spots in state all go to Republicans by big margins

SO ,,, in NY 23, a nobody (not even "from" the district) gets into the fray leass than 60 days before the election, runs an obscure 3rd party campaign, is beat up by both the repub and dem candidates, then has the repub candidate throw her support behind the dem after she drops out yet he loses by less than 6% and this proves ???

(and yes ,, I know the seat has been in the repub category for eons)(((but this goof Hoffman is far from a repub)))

Paraphrasing Mark Twain

"Reports of the death of the republican party have been greatly exaggerated!"

Agree. However, I think there's enough evidence to also say that "Reports of the death of Barack Obama's popularity/approval have been greatly exaggerated" as well. Trending down, but not dead.

114

rollwave87 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:33am

re: #83 _RememberTonyC

knowing keith (and I do), he was "massaging himself" while looking at his derek jeter rookie card.

haha. not sure what to make of that one. one the one hand I'm kinda offended cuz I'm gay and a Yankee fan, but on the other I'm rotflmao cuz olbermann is a destructive moron and that's a hilarious visual

115

Merryweather Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:37am

This is going to get worse before it gets better. Though I'm wondering exactly what kind of electoral catastrophe it would take for these deluded fools to realise that radicalising the GOP is NOT a good idea.

I see the media hasn't let facts get in the way 'this is bad news for Obama' narrative, despite the exit polls in the gubernatorial races indicating Obama was not a factor, Corzine's been obvious unpopular for months and Deeds actually distanced himself from Obama. Damn librul media.

116

Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:39am

re: #43 lawhawk

Christie's campaign was to do something about the insane property taxes here in NJ. That resonates throughout the state since Corzine ran and won his first term on the grounds of doing something about.

At the end of his first term, property taxes are higher, and we now have a higher sales and use tax to boot. Higher taxes, higher state spending, and Corzine was contemplating higher gas tax, higher tolls, etc.

They didn't. The anti-Corzine sentiment won the day, and Christie now has to clean up the mess that is the NJ state budget.

Unfortunately, neither candidate was proposing to do away with the myriad layers of officialdom that New Jersey is composed of. The duplication (and resultant high cost) of government is the major cause behind high property taxes in the Garden State, yet no governor can even begin to propose for local municipalities to combine services, lest they be tarred and feathered by the same voters upset with property taxes! It's much like the insanity behind Prop 13 in California, only with slightly less dysfunctionality...

117

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:53am

re: #102 wozzablog

Hoffman switched affiliations to run as a Con.

And the question remains ,,,

118

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:54am

re: #106 The Sanity Inspector

Mutiny On The Titanic

YOU'RE RE-ARRANGING THE DECK CHAIRS INCORRECTLY.

119

Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:12:59am

re: #100 sattv4u2

Re: NY/NJ- I think it proves RINOs shouldn't be demonized and driven from the party. Goldwater republicans can still win, but the theocons are driving us from the party. There is no secret to republicans winning in liberal states- they're not going to win with a far-right message.

120

jayzee Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:13:18am

re: #108 wozzablog

the media shine is off Obama and added to Corzine screwing up, a lacklustre Virgina candidate and midterm voters doing what midterm voters do... it all adds up.

The sum of those parts doesn't a GOP resurgence make, yet.

Sure it does. In its infancy but a resurgence none the less. It could easily be snuffed out if played wrong, yet flourish if played right.

121

NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:13:27am

re: #111 FrogMarch

I think it's pretty clear that both sides are attempting to spin the results. Nothing new.

Here's some spin from Gibbs...

WASHINGTON (CNN) – White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs dismissed Democratic electoral defeats in New Jersey and Virginia as "two very local elections" that say nothing about President Barack Obama's standing with the American people right now.

122

Ojoe Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:13:46am

~~Conservatives~~ Centrifuges Furiously Spinning.

123

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:13:53am

re: #112 lawhawk

not doubting it for a second. Gotta wonder how comfortable she would have felt going back as an R anyway when members of her own party NAtionally were going all guns against her

124

Spider Mensch Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:13:56am

re: #100 sattv4u2

So lemme get this straight

In New Jersey, a very liberal state, an incumbant gov. outspends his opponent 2(+)-1 and has the sitting President make at least 6 appearances for him and still loses
In Virginia the top 3 spots in state all go to Republicans by big margins

SO ,,, in NY 23, a nobody (not even "from" the district) gets into the fray leass than 60 days before the election, runs an obscure 3rd party campaign, is beat up by both the repub and dem candidates, then has the repub candidate throw her support behind the dem after she drops out yet he loses by less than 6% and this proves ???

(and yes ,, I know the seat has been in the repub category for eons)(((but this goof Hoffman is far from a repub)))

Paraphrasing Mark Twain

"Reports of the death of the republican party have been greatly exaggerated!"

no, no , no..didn't you read the headline...ny 23 is the vortex of American politics! whatever else happened yesterday doesn't matter, silly! the elephant is dead! long live the jack asses!

125

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:13:59am

re: #113 EastSider

Agreed
Thats why I didn't say his appearance dragged Corzine down, only that they weren't enough to win the day for him

126

Ojoe Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:14:13am

re: #110 wozzablog

OK thank you.

127

The Sanity Inspector Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:14:19am

re: #31 Dark_Falcon

Yes. Some will focus too much on what happened in NY-23. That's not the biggest story. The challenge now is to build GOP state organizations and be ready when the Tea Party crowd comes calling. The NY state party was disorganized and got caught by surprise. We must be ready so that we Won't Get Fooled Again.

Most durable political rock song of all time.

128

karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:15:08am

re: #94 filetandrelease

Yesterdays results would suggest otherwise.

Palin, Pawlenty and the SoCon whackos who scream "RINO" and "Party loyalty unless it doesn't suit me" endorsed a non-Republican in order to force a Republican out. Result - Democrat takes a seat that has been Republican since Teddy Roosevelt was campaigning.

All while independents decided to to vote for GOP governors in Obama states. We are looking at 25 to 30 point swings in key suburbs in Virginia and New Jersey.

Palin lost. Pawlenty lost. El Rushbo lost. Michelle Malkin lost.

Lost.

Made asses of selves.

Taken to the cleaners.

Worsted.

Came up short.

Kissed goodbye.

Defeated.

Took a beating.

Took the count.

Failed.

129

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:15:58am

re: #125 sattv4u2

Agreed
Thats why I didn't say his appearance dragged Corzine down, only that they weren't enough to win the day for him

Yup--didn't mean to imply that you made the claim, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it shouted from various right wing rooftops in the next few days.

Seems like we're in alignment in our read of this one.

130

Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:15:59am

re: #108 wozzablog

the media shine is off Obama and added to Corzine screwing up, a lacklustre Virgina candidate and midterm voters doing what midterm voters do... it all adds up.

The sum of those parts doesn't a GOP resurgence make, yet.

I didn't see sattv4u2 use the word "resurgence," did you? You can spin this every way you wish, but the wins are what they are, wins.

And the loss in NY23 speaks volumes to the country. The race that the most vocal GOP nuts got their crazy hands into, they lost.

The nuts lost. Rush, Beck, none of them could pull this off. You know why? Because they don't matter as much as the progressive would like to make them out to matter.

Most of the spin on Rush and Beck and the other nuts is manufactured by the left.

It's not fooling anyone.

131

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:16:00am

re: #120 jayzee

thats why i qualified it with a yet. it's not a full fledged resurgence yet.

still need to find a Presidential candidate who won't lose Nationally going away...

132

The Sanity Inspector Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:16:48am

re: #107 Ojoe

Down with both major political parties. Pffiibbiittth. ™

Down with "spin." Pffiibbiittth. ™

If only there were some third party we could turn to...
/

133

Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:17:04am

re: #115 Merryweather

This is going to get worse before it gets better. Though I'm wondering exactly what kind of electoral catastrophe it would take for these deluded fools to realise that radicalising the GOP is NOT a good idea.

I see the media hasn't let facts get in the way 'this is bad news for Obama' narrative, despite the exit polls in the gubernatorial races indicating Obama was not a factor, Corzine's been obvious unpopular for months and Deeds actually distanced himself from Obama. Damn librul media.

Well, let's see... where the race was "radicalized," they lost. Where it wasn't, they won.

Two points for the GOP.

134

lawhawk Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:17:12am

NJ election broken down by county. For those who are wondering about the NE corner of NJ that largely went for Corzine, that includes Hudson, Essex, Passaic, Bergen, and Union counties.

Those counties include the following major cities: Paterson, Passaic, Hoboken, Jersey City, and Newark. The urban areas went strong for Corzine (Newark is in Essex, Jersey City and Hoboken are in Hudson), which was to be expected, but not nearly strong enough to overcome Christie's advantage statewide. In fact, one could argue that Christie's performance in Bergen County presaged Corzine's loss because Corzine needed the county to go strong for him to have a chance of holding on.

135

Mike DeGuzman Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:17:24am

re: #121 NJDhockeyfan

Maybe not right now but it may when election time comes around.

136

Dark_Falcon Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:17:25am

re: #121 NJDhockeyfan

Gibbs can try to run that crap if he wants, but losing NJ after he poured effort into it is a defeat for Obama. Maybe not a big one, but it is a loss.

Off to work. BBT

137

[deleted] Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:17:46am

138

[deleted] Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:18:25am

139

filetandrelease Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:18:37am

re: #128 karmic_inquisitor

LOL, not exactly the way I see it, but yours point is well taken.

140

wrenchwench Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:18:38am

re: #103 jayzee

Steele did what was expected. And he's right and will be right as long as he starts to muscle the fringe right as opposed to letting them muscle him. They took a loss, will scramble, lose contributions while the mainstream GOP, can make a comeback if they don't screw it up.

Have you looked at gop.com lately? He's being muscled right off by the Paulians.

141

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:18:47am

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

see 131

and yes. the wins in Virginia and Joisy were good.

However - long debate to be had (and it already has) over how greater hold the wingnuts have on the GOP. More than you reckon and less than some reckon. I reckon, anyway.

142

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:19:14am

re: #119 Sharmuta

Re: NY/NJ- I think it proves RINOs shouldn't be demonized and driven from the party. Goldwater republicans can still win, but the theocons are driving us from the party. There is no secret to republicans winning in liberal states- they're not going to win with a far-right message.

I don't ascribe to that.

In that the Republican nominee for 2008 was McCain, and in that Hoffman had to run as a "Conservative" and not as a republican (even though Scozzafava got out of the srace, it was more because of her numbers, not because the party pushed her out) and in that neither Virginia and New Jerseys newly elected 4some can be described as socons (imho) and they ran and won

143

rollwave87 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:20:06am

re: #137 _RememberTonyC

haha. oh do you actually know him?

144

andres Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:20:46am

re: #58 filetandrelease

Not necessary. She could have endorsed Owens because Owens had a better grasp of the challenges of NY23. Remember, it was Hoffman's camp who said that local issues were of no interest (I think he used the word "parochial" to describe their problems). This creates a drift: do you subject your district to someone who has no interest on them, or do you endorse someone that is at least willing to listen to them?

145

Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:21:09am

re: #140 wrenchwench

Have you looked at gop.com lately? He's being muscled right off by the Paulians.

It's the theo-con/paleo-con alliance that worries me the most. They suffered a defeat in NY 23, but they will keep trying to make inroads at the party level from the grassroots up. Once they get control of local and state parties, it will only be a matter of time until they get the national party in their grips too.

146

jaunte Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:21:09am

More local politics, a three-way runoff for Houston mayor:

The woman who could become Houston's first openly gay mayor says her sexuality isn't an issue. Ed Lavandera reports.
[Link: us.cnn.com...]

147

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:21:15am

re: #108 wozzablog

the media shine is off Obama and added to Corzine screwing up, a lacklustre Virgina candidate and midterm voters doing what midterm voters do... it all adds up.

The sum of those parts doesn't a GOP resurgence make, yet.

Heres your problem with that

This is not a "midterm" election. That happens NEXT November

President Obama has only been in office 10 months, not 22

148

Ojoe Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:22:31am

re: #132 The Sanity Inspector

Well there are enough "independents" to constitute one.

149

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:22:53am

re: #144 andres

last Poll available had "un-affliated" running away from Hoffman - he turned a lead in Indys to a -8% spread and widening

150

SFGoth Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:23:04am

About to re-register Libertarian.

151

lawhawk Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:23:12am

re: #116 Surabaya Stew

Christie proposed that municipalities voluntarily come together to share services, which is slightly more workable than some force-fed nonsense that was a nonstarter when proposed by Corzine.

Take Bergen county for instance. We've got town police forces, which cover their jurisdictions. Then we've got the Bergen County sheriff's office, which duplicates efforts. Throw in the NJ State Police and you've got three layers of law enforcement in some areas of the county. Why? Eliminate the sheriff's office (which has to be done at the county level) and wrap in those cut with the local jurisdictions - spread out among those areas covered). It will save some money, but not nearly as much as pension reform, and switching all new employees to 401k rather than defined benefits packages. Pension costs are driving up property taxes faster than you can imagine, and Corzine's proposal was to ignore the problem this year so he could say that he kept down property taxes this year (except they rose anyway).

152

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:23:21am

re: #147 sattv4u2

Heres your problem with that

This is not a "midterm" election. That happens NEXT November

President Obama has only been in office 10 months, not 22

Yes by month 22 he may have done something. And I may be 7 feet tall.

153

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:23:55am

re: #152 EastSider

Yes by month 22 he may have done something. And I may be 7 feet tall.

/

Way to go, Stretch

Are the Knicks calling ya?

154

bratwurst Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:24:09am

re: #138 _RememberTonyC

if that is true, I am sorry to hear it

It's true. You are far from the only person who has crossed paths with Keith with less than flattering things to say. It is a matter of record that he has repeatedly burned bridges throughout his career. However...for a guy who does an irrelevant show on an irrelevant network nobody watches, people who disagree with his politics sure like to keep close tabs on the guy.

155

watching you tiny alien kittens are Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:24:12am

re: #35 filetandrelease

He is not getting my vote.

Why not?

By anyones definition Crist is a solid Republican, he is pro-life, pro-gun, anti-gay marriage, anti-tax, a law and order supporter, and a foreign policy hawk. Is it because he is a pragmatist and doesn't tilt against windmills, that he is willing to work with both sides of the aisle to do the best he can?

He isn't an ideologue, so he isn't pure enough to gain your vote? He should just constantly fight losing battles instead of dealing for the best he can get from the legislature? What he has done is called governing, as in actually getting things done as best he could, something the purists apparently pretend not to understand the need for anymore, but only when they want to elect one of their own.

156

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:24:43am

re: #153 sattv4u2

Way to go, Stretch

Are the Knicks calling ya?

They're calling me now, and I'm still just 5'8". They need the help.

157

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:24:59am

re: #147 sattv4u2

depends hich cycle you are going on ;-)

nationally the dems hit a high watermark in 2006 picking up seats they otherwise didn't expect. In that case it's a bit over midterm.

158

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:25:12am

Republican Renaissance... Victory?

To be stupid enough to believe something like that, you would have to be stupid enough to believe that ID was science or that Global Warming wasn't real, or that Obama was born in Kenya...

Oh wait ... nevermind.

159

Charles Johnson Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:25:22am

Even Jon Henke has given up his feeble protests against World Net Daily and his lukewarm criticism of the Glenn Beck crowd, and is now yelling about "dismantling the Republican Party." He says the "movement" is defined by opposition to big government - no mention at all of the very strong religious/culture war aspect of it.

[Link: thenextright.com...]

Yeesh.

160

NJDhockeyfan Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:25:48am

Palin: NY-23 race 'just postponed until 2010'

(CNN) – Democrat Bill Owens may have won last night's special election in New York's 23rd congressional district - but Sarah Palin said Wednesday that race "is not over."

Writing on Facebook early Wednesday morning, the former Alaska governor praised Conservative Party candidate Doug Hoffman and "all the other under-dog candidates who have the courage to put themselves out there and run against the odds."

"The race for New York's 23rd District is not over, just postponed until 2010," Palin wrote. "The issues of this election have always centered on the economy – on the need for fiscal restraint, smaller government, and policies that encourage jobs. In 2010, these issues will be even more crucial to the electorate."

161

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:26:07am

re: #159 Charles

Even Jon Henke has given up his feeble protests against World Net Daily and his lukewarm criticism of the Glenn Beck crowd, and is now yelling about "dismantling the Republican Party." He says the "movement" is defined by opposition to big government - no mention at all of the very strong religious/culture war aspect of it.

[Link: thenextright.com...]

Yeesh.

If the "movement" was all about opposition to big government, then we'd be its biggest fans, instead of its biggest critics.

162

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:27:01am

re: #152 EastSider

if a couple of Dems get out of the way in the Senate he will get HEalthcare, Cardcheck and Climate Change.

If he gets those between now and then he will have most of his agendas highlights. If he can get the Auto's off the books - atleast technically - and when TARP starts getting paid back apace - theres a lot to happen yet

163

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:27:12am

re: #159 Charles

Even Jon Henke has given up his feeble protests against World Net Daily and his lukewarm criticism of the Glenn Beck crowd, and is now yelling about "dismantling the Republican Party." He says the "movement" is defined by opposition to big government - no mention at all of the very strong religious/culture war aspect of it.

[Link: thenextright.com...]

Yeesh.

So G-d willing, it simply forms a non-viable party of lunatics and the influx of moderate yet purged GOP into the Dems brings creates a stronger center.

164

filetandrelease Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:28:13am

re: #144 andres

Not necessary. She could have endorsed Owens because Owens had a better grasp of the challenges of NY23. Remember, it was Hoffman's camp who said that local issues were of no interest (I think he used the word "parochial" to describe their problems). This creates a drift: do you subject your district to someone who has no interest on them, or do you endorse someone that is at least willing to listen to them?

That is one way to look at it.

165

jayzee Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:28:26am

re: #145 Sharmuta

It's the theo-con/paleo-con alliance that worries me the most. They suffered a defeat in NY 23, but they will keep trying to make inroads at the party level from the grassroots up. Once they get control of local and state parties, it will only be a matter of time until they get the national party in their grips too.

If Steele plays it right he'll start muscling them now. It will probably be a fight but everyone loves a winner (especially when giving money) and they'll be supporting Steele more than the fringe.

166

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:28:59am

re: #162 wozzablog

if a couple of Dems get out of the way in the Senate he will get HEalthcare, Cardcheck and Climate Change.

If he gets those between now and then he will have most of his agendas highlights. If he can get the Auto's off the books - atleast technically - and when TARP starts getting paid back apace - theres a lot to happen yet

Not impossible, but there's a lot of if's in there. There are also a ton of landmines both domestic and abroad that could seriously complicate things for them.

167

wrenchwench Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:29:52am

re: #159 Charles

He concludes:

Next year, we start storming the castle.

Always the mark of an important political philosopher (or someone about to be banned.)

168

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:29:59am

re: #157 wozzablog

depends hich cycle you are going on ;-)

nationally the dems hit a high watermark in 2006 picking up seats they otherwise didn't expect. In that case it's a bit over midterm.

umm,, you DO know that the Presidential election was in 2004 (President seated in 2005) So that 2006 election WAS mid term (22 months after Bush was re-seated)

Obama was elected in 2008, seated in 2009, so this ~~mid term~~ was 12 months after he was elected, 10 after he was seated

Again ,, NOT historical "midterm"

169

Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:30:26am

re: #159 Charles

From the link:

NY-23 is not really about Conservatives VS Moderates. It is about the Establishment VS the Movement.

I think both "the movement" and "the establishment" have forgotten what conservatism is. Until it's rectified, we'll continue to see this problem.

170

Ojoe Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:30:48am

re: #163 LudwigVanQuixote

I'll take a stronger center.

171

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:31:00am

re: #163 LudwigVanQuixote

So G-d willing, it simply forms a non-viable party of lunatics and the influx of moderate yet purged GOP into the Dems brings creates a stronger center.

Yup ,, because if there's one thing the dems are ,, it's centrists!

172

Ojoe Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:31:29am

re: #169 Sharmuta

Fixing the fatal overspending is key.

173

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:31:42am

re: #169 Sharmuta

From the link:

I think both "the movement" and "the establishment" have forgotten what conservatism is. Until it's rectified, we'll continue to see this problem.

*DINGDINGDINGDINGDING*

174

Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:31:57am

re: #158 LudwigVanQuixote

Republican Renaissance... Victory?

To be stupid enough to believe something like that, you would have to be stupid enough to believe that ID was science or that Global Warming wasn't real, or that Obama was born in Kenya...

Oh wait ... nevermind.

There you go... you can't even post ONE comment without making a snide remark... so, any Lizards here today who see something positive about the election results yesterday are "stupid."

You're so nice.

175

webevintage Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:32:26am

In case anyone is interested the House has uploaded the various amendments to House Bill 3962:
[Link: docs.house.gov...]

Is the House Republican bill that Boehner announced yesterday(?) still in draft form or have they finished it so it can be viewed for 72 hours before discussion begins on the floor?

176

Charles Johnson Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:32:44am

The next chapter: Doug Hoffman will become the next hero of the tea partiers.

177

Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:33:28am

re: #176 Charles

The next chapter: Doug Hoffman will become the next hero of the tea partiers.

Probably.

178

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:33:51am

re: #174 Walter L. Newton

Pavlovian

179

bosforus Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:35:46am

Anagram for "tea partiers":
It a rare pest

180

Honorary Yooper Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:36:39am

re: #163 LudwigVanQuixote

So G-d willing, it simply forms a non-viable party of lunatics and the influx of moderate yet purged GOP into the Dems brings creates a stronger center.

I doubt most of them will go to the Democrats. The largest growing party affiliation is none. People don't want to be ID and theocrat Republicans, and they don't want to be socialist and moonbatty Democrats. That leaves them nowhere.

According to some, we've had about 5 or 6 party systems in the US, and they usually break up with a period of realignment between them. This is looking like one of those times. However, if the Democrats stay left, and the Republicans go further right, it may open a hole for a viable third party. This is rare in American politics, but not unheard of.

181

EastSider Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:36:41am

re: #159 Charles

Even Jon Henke has given up his feeble protests against World Net Daily and his lukewarm criticism of the Glenn Beck crowd, and is now yelling about "dismantling the Republican Party." He says the "movement" is defined by opposition to big government - no mention at all of the very strong religious/culture war aspect of it.

[Link: thenextright.com...]

Yeesh.

Its the blatant inconsistency that's the issue. No one raised an eyebrow when Congress/Obama passed a multi-hundred Billion dollar defense bill in the middle of the healthcare debate that has everyone going nuts.

In fact, when he made moves to cut the F-22 program and remove an expensive, largely ineffective missile defense shied in Europe, the cries weren't "Way to cut big government!" they were "Weak on defense! Abandoning our Allies!"

The truth is that many of the people who are obstensibly against "big government" are really against ANY government that does what they don't want, but will be for a HUGE government for its own policies.

182

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:36:46am

re: #168 sattv4u2

lets change mid-term... to "off year"...

not that it makes a heckuva lot of difference. The Dems are coming off a highwatermark nationally - if they had contiinued up wards the national re-allignment would have been going ahead too fast even for the psephologists who are on the fringe.
There is a re-allignment happening - but not as fast as all that.

183

filetandrelease Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:37:07am

re: #155 ausador

Why not?

By anyones definition Crist is a solid Republican, he is pro-life, pro-gun, anti-gay marriage, anti-tax, a law and order supporter, and a foreign policy hawk. Is it because he is a pragmatist and doesn't tilt against windmills, that he is willing to work with both sides of the aisle to do the best he can?

He isn't an ideologue, so he isn't pure enough to gain your vote? He should just constantly fight losing battles instead of dealing for the best he can get from the legislature? What he has done is called governing, as in actually getting things done as best he could, something the purists apparently pretend not to understand the need for anymore, but only when they want to elect one of their own.

Nice ramble.

I will vote for a more conservative candidate. And I could care less about their position on abortion or gay rights.

184

lawhawk Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:37:16am

More NJ spin, this time claiming that Christie was destined to win because people were angry.

185

theliel Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:37:25am

Basically up thread they have it right.

NJ Incumbant was less popular than Bush circa 2008 elections, and the VA Dem ran AWAY from Obama (in addtion to being a crappy canidate over all).

The Republican canidates, OTOH, ran THE FUCK away from so-con roots to the middle and hey, came up with wins. Imagine that.

NY-23 was the real story, becase it's the one that didn't go as planned.

Oh yha, one more thing, when the Dems won both VA and NJ in 2001 the RNC and most other conservative voices very, very, very, very heavily mounted a giant 'it's not big deal and not a referrendum on the president' campiegn mirrored by the sclm.

As for whazzhername pushing owens - when the guy you are supposed to 'take one for the team for' shows up to the local newspaper and declares the questions being asked 'irellevant parochial concerns' it's not unresonable to assume that the jackass isn't going to represent your distrect's 'irellevant parochial concerns' properly.

I'm just saying is all.

186

Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:37:25am

re: #158 LudwigVanQuixote

Accidental downding. Tell me how to reverse it.

187

im_gumby_damnit Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:37:33am

This was a loss, to be sure. However, I saw Hoffman interviewed on TV last night for the first time. To say that he comes across as an odd character would be charitable. Frankly, I'm amazed he got as many votes as he did.

188

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:38:38am

re: #186 Decatur Deb

Accidental downding. Tell me how to reverse it.

just press plus twice.

189

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:39:19am

re: #186 Decatur Deb

Accidental downding. Tell me how to reverse it.

Ya can't !!

///

190

karmic_inquisitor Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:40:04am

Look - those claiming Republican Renaissance or Resurgence or Rehabilitation really need to step away from the joy juice and think hard.

In the last election a freshman Senator who had been a college professor and serial autobiographer was elected to the highest office in the landwithout being all too specific about what he was going to do nor having the ability to point to having really done anything.

For that to have happened you need a country that really really really didn't want the opponent.

Now the SoCons I know love when I start with that because they then jump forward at this point and talk about what a lousy RINO John McCain is. You know - the guy who is a fiscal hawk, pro life, defense zealot with a cranky disposition. Yup - that RINO.

The 2008 election was a "get it through your goddamned head" message to Republicans.

And the message wasn't "Please impose more regulations as to how I can and can't use my genitalia" nor "Please eliminate all mention of Charles Darwin from my child's classroom" nor "Please do whatever you can to keep me from catching the ghey".

Social Conservatism will not suddenly win over new supporters to the GOP.

Fiscal Conservatism will. Problem is the last guy we had in the white house spent like a drunken sailor and his majorities in the house and senate did nothing to stop it. Yes - wars are expensive which is why it is a good idea not to create massive new entitlements like Prescription Drug benefits when you are already running in the red. That isn't fiscal conservatism.

It was called "compassionate conservatism".

You know who else uses that term and walks that walk. Mike Hukabee - another guy whose followers love to scream RINO at folks like me as they dream up new ways to impoverish future generations in the name of "compassion" while also figuring out how to modify our sexual behavior.

Those are the priorities of the SoCons and they will do absolutely NOTHING to reign in runaway spending - they will talk the talk to get the power and then assemble another "K Street Project" to try to "buy" a permanent majority just like they tried last time.

And to rub the salt in the wounds, the only POTUS to run surpluses was a guy who could not control his genitals - Bill Clinton.

191

im_gumby_damnit Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:40:19am

re: #176 Charles

Per my previous post, God help the Tea Party folks if they rally around this guy.

192

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:40:26am

re: #186 Decatur Deb

re: #189 sattv4u2

Ya can't !!

///

Actually ,,the only way to "reverse it" is downding ANOTHER post ,,, (double negative makes a positive,, and all that !!))

///

193

filetandrelease Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:40:57am

re: #158 LudwigVanQuixote

Republican Renaissance... Victory?

To be stupid enough to believe something like that, you would have to be stupid enough to believe that ID was science or that Global Warming wasn't real, or that Obama was born in Kenya...

Oh wait ... nevermind.

You crack me up sometimes.

194

Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:41:01am

re: #192 sattv4u2

Oh!! I see.

195

avanti Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:41:26am

re: #3 TheQuis

I guess we'll hear the President proclaim victory in NJ for taking a candidate with a 30% approval rating and boosting him to 44% of the vote.

Obama was not on the ticket, the Dems had weak candidates and the Obama base of blacks, Latino's and the young did not bother to vote. That may bode well in 2010 if the GOP can field decent candidates. Like in the case of NY 23, that means not candidates that don't scare the crap out of moderates.

196

Sharmuta Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:42:17am

re: #190 karmic_inquisitor

You are my hero.

197

Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:42:25am

re: #188 LudwigVanQuixote

Didn't work. I owe you two. Out of control on the learning curve.

198

Land Shark Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:42:31am

From what I see, both sides are furiously spinning last night's results. Steele's "Republican Renaissance" is really silly. Yes, they are badly needed wins in NJ and VA which should boost GOP morale, but c'mon! They blew the NY 23 race big time, and are still in the political wilderness having actually lost ground in the House last night.

Unless the GOP makes substantial gains in the 2010 Mid-terms, any talk of a Republican Renaissance seems dumb at this point.

199

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:43:20am

re: #180 Honorary Yooper

I meant that those new dems that were Rinos, will end up making the Dems more center overall.

re: #174 Walter L. Newton

Make nice remarks about the Socons and the Theocons Walter? Very well,

The theocons are just crazy and motivated enough to completely sink themselves and the GOP as a whole. Given that the GOP is the party of anti-science, that has historically spent more than the Dems for the past 30 years, and has dome the most to limit constitutional protections, the Theocons and the Socons are doing a service to the nation be effectively castrating the GOP.

200

alexknyc Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:43:23am

Interesting to note that both successful GOP candidates were moderates. Exactly the kind of people the right-wing extremists want to purge from the party.

Apparently, they want to be an ideologically pure permanent minority. Maybe the Whigs can give them pointers.

These are the people who would claim Christie and McDonnell are insufficiently pro-life because they don't want to prosecute doctors and women.

These are the people who would claim they are insufficiently anti-gay marriage because they don't believe homosexuality is a mortal sin.

These are the people who will kill the GOP as a viable national party.

You don't win elections by demonizing and purging the very people whose votes you need to win.

201

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:43:32am

re: #193 filetandrelease

You crack me up sometimes.

I exist to serve.

202

erraticsphinx Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:44:23am

re: #200 alexknyc

A thousand updings.

203

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:44:52am

re: #197 Decatur Deb

Didn't work. I owe you two. Out of control on the learning curve.

No, if you accidentally down ding, press plus to go back to zero then plus again to up ding.

204

Surabaya Stew Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:45:49am

re: #151 lawhawk

Christie proposed that municipalities voluntarily come together to share services, which is slightly more workable than some force-fed nonsense that was a nonstarter when proposed by Corzine.

Take Bergen county for instance. We've got town police forces, which cover their jurisdictions. Then we've got the Bergen County sheriff's office, which duplicates efforts. Throw in the NJ State Police and you've got three layers of law enforcement in some areas of the county. Why? Eliminate the sheriff's office (which has to be done at the county level) and wrap in those cut with the local jurisdictions - spread out among those areas covered). It will save some money, but not nearly as much as pension reform, and switching all new employees to 401k rather than defined benefits packages. Pension costs are driving up property taxes faster than you can imagine, and Corzine's proposal was to ignore the problem this year so he could say that he kept down property taxes this year (except they rose anyway).

New Jersey municipalities will "voluntarily" share services? This, in the same state that took almost 20 years just to unite 18 of the 19 Hudson County fire departments?!? Won't work, Lawhawk; this is an instance where the voters are so stupid that their leaders need to force reform down their throats. Without very strong incentives, (i.e., withholding funding unless school districts and township services are consolidated) Christie's plan will be a non-starter.

Agree with you about pension costs spiraling out of control, but I can't think of a single instance of a public workforce accepting a 401k in lieu of defined pensions. Christie must be dreaming if he thinks that even non-union NJ employees will accept that sort of change! Unlike the voters being shortsighted about bloated local government, every public employee knows that their pensions are a better deal than a 401k, so the best Christie can do is to force concessions that halt the expansion of benefits and contributions.

205

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:46:08am

re: #170 Ojoe

I'll take a stronger center.

Yeah exactly, the Rinos will balance out the far left of the Dems and you'll be left in the center.

206

Decatur Deb Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:46:58am

re: #203 LudwigVanQuixote

Think it only let me + one time, then went gray.

207

TheQuis Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:47:24am

re: #195 avanti

Obama was not on the ticket, the Dems had weak candidates and the Obama base of blacks, Latino's and the young did not bother to vote. That may bode well in 2010 if the GOP can field decent candidates. Like in the case of NY 23, that means not candidates that don't scare the crap out of moderates.

I should have put a sarc tag.

208

Walter L. Newton Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:47:26am

re: #199 LudwigVanQuixote

You can make comments and make points with out reverting to the usage of base wordage. Like I've suggested to you before, it makes you sound like a six grader in a school yard. You have done it inclusively to all Lizards who don't agree with you and specifically to certain Lizards who never agree with you. Like of self-control in my opinion, or is it lack of something else? And since you are the one using this sort of language, I have no problem calling you out on it, over and over if need be.

209

erraticsphinx Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:47:29am

I think part of Corzine is very glad he doesn't have to keep governing the mess that is NJ.

"Have fun Christie!"

210

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:47:29am

re: #206 Decatur Deb

Think it only let me + one time, then went gray.

Well thank you anyway. It is the thought that counts.

211

webevintage Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:47:57am

For those disappointed by the vote in Maine there is a bright spot that a DKOS regular commenter noted about the statistic that the "Final numbers are in from [University of Maine]-Orono campus- 81% No, 19%" :

"A 'No' vote was a vote to keep the same-sex marriage law in place. Look at that: 81 percent No, 19 percent Yes. That's the future of gay rights in America. It's coming. It's on our doorstep. It's just a matter of time. All Schubert-Flint and NOM and the Catholic church did last night was kick the can down the road a bit."

212

Bagua Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:49:55am

re: #199 LudwigVanQuixote

[...] Given that the GOP is the party of anti-science, [...].

Hyperbole.

213

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:50:47am

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

Dude, what base wordage did I use?

You seem to be a might touchy today Walter?

Is stupid no longer a PC word to be used? And BTW just to be perfectly clear, the Theocons are, actually are, stupid and ignorant, and even hateful. So are the teabaggers and the nirthers and the deathers and all of those black helicopter types.

Stupid stupid stupid, to the extent of making themselves into the political equivalent of a Darwin Award - but worse, stupid stupid stupid for liking Beck and liking Rush and liking all the ID and the anti AGW and the death panel stuff.

Stupid, like Palin is stupid.

214

Bagua Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:50:49am

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

Well said.

215

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:52:18am

re: #212 Bagua

Hyperbole.

You are right, they are only the party that tried to bury stem cells, bury Darwin and bury AGW research... Yeah, just keen on that science there...

Clearly I am exaggerating...

//dripping

216

webevintage Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:52:28am

re: #175 webevintage

In case anyone is interested the House has uploaded the various amendments to House Bill 3962:
[Link: docs.house.gov...]

Is the House Republican bill that Boehner announced yesterday(?) still in draft form or have they finished it so it can be viewed for 72 hours before discussion begins on the floor?

Found it:
[Link: docs.house.gov...]

Final draft.

217

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:53:22am

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

What are you talking about Walter, I was talking about the far right and GOP spin... Are you losing it or something today?

218

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:53:54am

re: #214 Bagua

Well said.

for bottom kissing :)

219

Bagua Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:54:15am

re: #215 LudwigVanQuixote

You are right, they are only the party that tried to bury stem cells, bury Darwin and bury AGW research... Yeah, just keen on that science there...

Clearly I am exaggerating...

//dripping

Not only exaggeration, hyperbole: : extravagant exaggeration (as “mile-high ice-cream cones”)

You do it all the time. Doesn't make you a bad person though :)

220

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:54:53am

re: #213 LudwigVanQuixote

Stupid stupid stupid, to the extent of making themselves into the political equivalent of a Darwin Award - but worse, stupid stupid stupid for liking Beck and liking Rush and liking all the ID and the anti AGW and the death panel stuff.

Stupid, like Palin is stupid.

WALTER ,,, you are wrong,, SEE ,,, Ludwig isn't a sixth grader !!

Neener neener!!

221

avanti Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:54:59am

re: #198 Land Shark

From what I see, both sides are furiously spinning last night's results. Steele's "Republican Renaissance" is really silly. Yes, they are badly needed wins in NJ and VA which should boost GOP morale, but c'mon! They blew the NY 23 race big time, and are still in the political wilderness having actually lost ground in the House last night.

Unless the GOP makes substantial gains in the 2010 Mid-terms, any talk of a Republican Renaissance seems dumb at this point.

The party not in the WH almost always gains seats, and I expect they will again, but not enough to gain a majority, but enough to block legislation. Obama will need to get his agendas passed in the next year.

222

Bagua Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:55:11am

re: #218 LudwigVanQuixote

for bottom kissing :)

More hyperbole :)

223

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:55:59am

re: #220 sattv4u2

Stupid stupid stupid, to the extent of making themselves into the political equivalent of a Darwin Award - but worse, stupid stupid stupid for liking Beck and liking Rush and liking all the ID and the anti AGW and the death panel stuff.

Stupid, like Palin is stupid.

WALTER ,,, you are wrong,, SEE ,,, Ludwig isn't a sixth grader !!

Neener neener!!

I gotta paraphrase Ice here, The butthurt is strong in this one, I sense much whining :)

224

Bagua Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:56:15am

re: #220 sattv4u2

Careful, he's liable to call you a bottom kisser for agreeing with his opponent.

{Smooch}

225

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:56:15am

re: #222 Bagua

More hyperbole :)

ok that was funny.

226

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:56:42am

re: #224 Bagua

Careful, he's liable to call you a bottom kisser for agreeing with his opponent.

{Smooch}

and that was bottom kissing again.

227

Bagua Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:57:09am

re: #226 LudwigVanQuixote

and that was bottom kissing again.

{smooch, smooch}

228

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:57:48am

re: #223 LudwigVanQuixote

I gotta paraphrase Ice here, The butthurt is strong in this one, I sense much whining :)

Then you should stop!

229

charlz Wed, Nov 4, 2009 10:59:35am

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

Well, let's see... where the race was "radicalized," they lost. Where it wasn't, they won.

I think that's the most accurate view. In N. Virginia, the incessant political ads hardly ever mentioned party affiliation -- except when McDonnell ran support ads featuring self-identified Democratic women and businesspersons (Sheila Johnson, formerly of BET was omnipresent for instance). Otherwise, most McDonnell ads featured his beautiful family or that 90% of legislation he sponsored passed with "strong bipartisan support." Deeds' ads by contrast were mostly screechy attacks and until the very end never mentioned Obama. McDonnell may have a socon or "radical" agenda but it was well-hidden in his campaigning.

230

webevintage Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:00:24am

re: #221 avanti

The party not in the WH almost always gains seats, and I expect they will again, but not enough to gain a majority, but enough to block legislation. Obama will need to get his agendas passed in the next year.

Yep.
and the Republicans will do everything they can including not attending hearings and committee meetings as a way to slllooowww down the process.
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
This shit just annoys the hell out of me no matter who does it.
Discuss the bill, work on it and then bring it to a vote.
That's the way things are supposed to work.

Elections have consequences and if you don't like the way the last one went then do a better job, without lying, of convincing the American people that you will do a better job then the other guy.

231

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:02:57am

re: #228 sattv4u2

YOu are actually using the "I know you are but what am I" thing and calling me sixth grade? OK... It seems many are off their meds today...

232

bornamerican Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:03:38am

I think yesterday's elections like all events can be spun any way that agrees with your views. Like it or not 2010 is the test for anyones purge theory. Yesterday is just food for pundits.

Also, may I have a list of qualifications to be a Theocons or a Socons? I have seen the labels bantered around quite a lot. I need to know so I can be labeled correctly.

233

Wozza Matter? Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:05:45am

re: #230 webevintage

at a Healthcare session a while back Dodd offered to accept republican amendments on bloc... but atleast the senior Republican had the decency to look sheepish as he said "no" he did not want his own amendments accepted on bloc and would rather waste hours/days adding them individually to and all but empty room... and crickets

234

sattv4u2 Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:07:25am

re: #231 LudwigVanQuixote

YOu are actually using the "I know you are but what am I" thing and calling me sixth grade? OK... It seems many are off their meds today...

No,, I'm "actually" agreeing with Walter (actually, with myself) because I have told you the same thing numerous times. When you are disagreed with or challenged you act as a petulant child, name calling and swearing. You even admitted to me once that you knew A) you do that and B) it's wrong, yet here we are again

235

watching you tiny alien kittens are Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:08:13am

re: #183 filetandrelease

Nice ramble.

I will vote for a more conservative candidate. And I could care less about their position on abortion or gay rights.

So how is Rubio more 'conservative' than Crist? What do you know about him that makes him a better candidate than Crist? What about his track record as ex-speaker of the house, do you really think he did a good job? Or is it the endorsement of the tea party faction alone that makes him attractive to you?

The reason history keeps repeating is because people have lousy memories...

236

Bagua Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:09:36am

re: #234 sattv4u2

No,, I'm "actually" agreeing with Walter (actually, with myself) because I have told you the same thing numerous times. When you are disagreed with or challenged you act as a petulant child, name calling and swearing. You even admitted to me once that you knew A) you do that and B) it's wrong, yet here we are again

Agreed!

(But I still like you Ludwig, so don't take it personally. Smooch.)

237

HappyWarrior Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:21:12am

re: #229 charlz

I think that's the most accurate view. In N. Virginia, the incessant political ads hardly ever mentioned party affiliation -- except when McDonnell ran support ads featuring self-identified Democratic women and businesspersons (Sheila Johnson, formerly of BET was omnipresent for instance). Otherwise, most McDonnell ads featured his beautiful family or that 90% of legislation he sponsored passed with "strong bipartisan support." Deeds' ads by contrast were mostly screechy attacks and until the very end never mentioned Obama. McDonnell may have a socon or "radical" agenda but it was well-hidden in his campaigning.

Yeah I saw those ads here in NoVa. He ran a smart campaign. Much smarter than Deeds and the other thing is since he's been an exec before as well as AG he has the kind of experience Virginians like for their governors. Deeds had just been a legislator.

238

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:21:27am

re: #96 webevintage

Isn't his father very ill and that is why he has been off the show so much lately?

NOOO he is EVIL and we must ascribe all badness to him!

239

kirkspencer Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:25:02am

I would like to point out one curious datapoint regarding Virginia.

Of the total turnout, 51% said they voted for McCain in 2008 and 43% said they voted for Obama. In case anyone has forgotten, Obama won Virginia with 52.7% of the vote.

The simple reality is that the Republicans got more people to come out to vote than the Democrats. Total voter turnout was just over 52% of the 2008 turnout.

Philosophy and purity and all the rest don't matter if you can't get your people to the polls.

240

HappyWarrior Wed, Nov 4, 2009 11:34:48am

I don't who comes up with Limbaugh's spin but this is too hilarious. It's a victory for conservatism? First off your guy lost. Second off the Democratic candidate wasn't some fire breathing liberal. In fact, he had been criticized for not being to the left enough. And finally this is a seat that has been solidly Republican since the presidency of Grant. And I have to imagine even while the district voted for Obama last year that it was the first time in a while they've voted a Democrat for president too. Not since Grant obviously but I imagine it had been a while since a Democrat won or got above 50% like Obama did.

241

drcordell Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:18:02pm

re: #235 ausador

So how is Rubio more 'conservative' than Crist? What do you know about him that makes him a better candidate than Crist? What about his track record as ex-speaker of the house, do you really think he did a good job? Or is it the endorsement of the tea party faction alone that makes him attractive to you?

The reason history keeps repeating is because people have lousy memories...

Rubio is more "conservative" than Crist because he isn't a one of "teh gayz" like Crist.

242

Yashmak Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:24:34pm

re: #240 HappyWarrior

I don't who comes up with Limbaugh's spin but this is too hilarious. It's a victory for conservatism? First off your guy lost. Second off the Democratic candidate wasn't some fire breathing liberal. In fact, he had been criticized for not being to the left enough. And finally this is a seat that has been solidly Republican since the presidency of Grant. And I have to imagine even while the district voted for Obama last year that it was the first time in a while they've voted a Democrat for president too. Not since Grant obviously but I imagine it had been a while since a Democrat won or got above 50% like Obama did.

Most importantly, against Hoffman this unpopular Democrat candidate actually acheived a substantially higher percentage of the vote than his current approval rating. It's pretty obvious that folks who might have otherwise voted for a Republican party moderate voted for the Dem candidate because they DIDN'T want a Palin/Beck endorsed guy like Hoffman in office.

243

Yashmak Wed, Nov 4, 2009 12:27:20pm

re: #232 bornamerican

I think yesterday's elections like all events can be spun any way that agrees with your views. Like it or not 2010 is the test for anyones purge theory. Yesterday is just food for pundits.

Also, may I have a list of qualifications to be a Theocons or a Socons? I have seen the labels bantered around quite a lot. I need to know so I can be labeled correctly.

Well, Theocons are pretty easy to identify. Vocally anti gay marriage, vocally pro-life, and often signing or voting for legislation pushing theological stuff like intelligent design into the science classroom. In most cases, Theocon and Socon are terms that can safely be used interchangeably.

244

Captain Amercia Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:13:42pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

NY-23 was a failure no doubt about it, but GOP wins in Virginia and New Jersey are more important. Much of Obama's coalition stayed home. Tactics used in those two states will prove greatly important next year. If NY-23 showed how things should not be, the Old Dominion showed how we should campaign.

Exactly. The GOP lost NY-23, but swept Virginia and won in The People's Republic of New Jersey. Sounds more like an overall win rather than an overall loss to me.

245

andres Wed, Nov 4, 2009 1:37:07pm

re: #164 filetandrelease

It might be wishful thinking on my part, but it's not farfetched for politicians to actually think about their districts first (but then, my local politics ~~circus~~ scenario isn't American).

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