Schaeffer: Crazy for God

ReligionDecember 2009 • Views: 3,770

Here’s a fascinating interview with religious right apostate Frank Schaeffer, son of the late Calvinist preacher Francis Schaeffer, talking about the epiphany that led him to renounce his upbringing, from Point of Inquiry.

MP3 Audio

And here’s Schaeffer’s latest book, a memoir of growing up in the heart of the religious right: Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of It Back.External Image

(Hat tip: Summer.)

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186 comments

Bagua Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:45:05pm

Still Drunk, Still Crazy & Still Blue

MP3 Audio

Mark Pennington Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:47:04pm

You're on a roll man! I read his book Patience with God: Faith for People Who Don't Like Religion (or Atheism) (read my sisters copy a while back.) and just ordered this one.

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:47:46pm

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:49:06pm

I saw a pretty good interview with him recently, can't remember where.

My favorite thing that Shaeffer said, about Reverend Wright:

[W]hen my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr."

Article

erraticsphinx Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:49:32pm

G'night.

bunnymud Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:50:04pm

Al Gore caught pulling numbers from his arse

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

Why would he lie about global warming??? Oh yea...millions and millions of dollars

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:52:02pm

re: #3 MandyManners

I prefer this more contemporary ballad, posted by Charles some time back...

Youtube Video

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:54:18pm

Youtube Video

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:55:03pm

I've been very hopeful, by the way, by young evangelicals focus on poverty rather than gays and the sins of others.

Dancing along the light of day Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:55:43pm

re: #3 MandyManners

I think I like Judy Collins version best.
I need to go look & see if Jessye Norman has sung it.

William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:57:26pm

re: #7 laZardo

Let's split the difference...

With their other great take on faith & religion...

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:58:37pm

I've been looking for an A cappella version of this song for many, many moons.

Bagua Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:59:09pm

World Gone Crazy

MP3 Audio

- Bounty Killer

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:59:34pm

re: #9 Obdicut

I've been very hopeful, by the way, by young evangelicals focus on poverty rather than gays and the sins of others.

Which "young evangelicals." From a particular sect, or just all in general?

BruceKelly Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:59:35pm

re: #10 Floral Giraffe

I think I like Judy Collins version best.
I need to go look & see if Jessye Norman has sung it.

Rod Stewart

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 7:59:54pm

re: #10 Floral Giraffe

I think I like Judy Collins version best.
I need to go look & see if Jessye Norman has sung it.

Oops. I intended to make my No. 12 in response to your No. 10. I apologize.

BruceKelly Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:01:05pm

Anyone heard of Marjoe?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Great documentary.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:01:47pm

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

Which "young evangelicals." From a particular sect, or just all in general?

It's an increasing trend, at least per the media.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:03:00pm

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

It's an increasing trend, at least per the media.

That's good, I was just wondering if that was an emphasis of a certain christian sect or in general?

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:03:13pm

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

Which "young evangelicals." From a particular sect, or just all in general?

Here's an article on it, but if you listen to the interview that's at the top of the page, it's in there too.

Young evangelicals

Charles

This is a great interview, by the way, Charles. Much more in depth than the little bit I saw on TV. Think I'll read a book of his.

Killgore Trout Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:03:39pm

re: #3 MandyManners

Also see: Simple gifts

Youtube Video

/ Gay men's choir

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:03:50pm

Here's another song I cannot find an A cappella version of, the Old Rugged Cross.

On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross,
the emblem of suffering and shame;
and I love that old cross where the dearest and best
for a world of lost sinners was slain.
Refrain:
So I'll cherish the old rugged cross,
till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
and exchange it some day for a crown.

2. O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world,
has a wondrous attraction for me;
for the dear Lamb of God left his glory above
to bear it to dark Calvary.
(Refrain)

3. In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine,
a wondrous beauty I see,
for 'twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died,
to pardon and sanctify me.
(Refrain)

4. To that old rugged cross I will ever be true,
its shame and reproach gladly bear;
then he'll call me some day to my home far away,
where his glory forever I'll share.

palomino Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:04:47pm

Schaeffer: "My father's movement wanted America to fail in order to prove that we need to be run as a Christian nation."

No matter how much they puff themselves up, the religious right's definition of patriotism seems a bit skewed.

Bagua Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:06:15pm

re: #22 MandyManners

Youtube Video

Dancing along the light of day Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:06:38pm

re: #16 MandyManners

Youtube Video

Lovely!

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:06:50pm

re: #20 Obdicut

Here's an article on it, but if you listen to the interview that's at the top of the page, it's in there too.

Young evangelicals

Charles

This is a great interview, by the way, Charles. Much more in depth than the little bit I saw on TV. Think I'll read a book of his.

Thanks.

No, I didn't listen to the interview. I know a whole lot about the whole Shaeffer family. Read most of daddy's books, went to a number of seminars that the dad spoke at long ago, and I've heard interviews by the son.

Killgore Trout Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:07:37pm

Sheep May Safely Graze

Youtube Video

McSpiff Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:08:10pm

OT, but in my time zone... It's my birthday!

Killgore Trout Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:08:36pm

re: #28 McSpiff

OT, but in my time zone... It's my birthday!

Happy McSpiffmas!

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:09:06pm

re: #20 Obdicut

Here's an article on it, but if you listen to the interview that's at the top of the page, it's in there too.

Young evangelicals

Charles

This is a great interview, by the way, Charles. Much more in depth than the little bit I saw on TV. Think I'll read a book of his.

Hmmmm... from the article you linked...

"By contrast, there's not much generational difference on a key social issue, opposition to abortion.

"If anything, some of our surveys show younger evangelicals are little more pro-life than their elders," he said."

Still a problem there.

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:09:21pm

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

Ah. Then the only new thing in this interview for you would be a few remarks he makes about young evangelicals being different these days from back when he grew up, in a good way. The article I linked probably covers it well enough.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:09:34pm

re: #28 McSpiff

OT, but in my time zone... It's my birthday!

Congrats.. how old?

Sharmuta Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:09:49pm

Way to go on the hat tip, Summer!

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:10:23pm

re: #30 Walter L. Newton

Yeah, that part depressed me too. But I'll take some cultural progress over none at all.

I also think that values for abortion shift when one grows older and encounters a bit more of life, but I have nothing other than my swinging cod to back that up.

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:10:29pm

re: #28 McSpiff

Birthding! 8D

Bagua Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:10:56pm

re: #28 McSpiff

OT, but in my time zone... It's my birthday!

Happy Birthday my friend!

Happy Birthday - Jimi Hendrix

MP3 Audio

McSpiff Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:11:15pm

re: #32 Walter L. Newton

Congrats.. how old?

22. Explained the naivety im sure ;-)

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:11:33pm

re: #34 Obdicut

The young are usually a lot more 'fanatical' than their elders. They either mellow out or harden stiff.

/in bed.

//catching that one quick.

BruceKelly Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:11:35pm

re: #28 McSpiff

OT, but in my time zone... It's my birthday!

Happy McBirthday!

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:11:55pm

re: #37 McSpiff

Don't say your age. It makes me feel old.

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:11:56pm

re: #37 McSpiff

22. Explained the naivety im sure ;-)

Fuck, and I thought I was (once again?) the youngest lizard on LGF. ;_;

Sharmuta Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:13:05pm

Haven't listened to this interview yet, but it did remind me of another fundie family- the Cunninghams

Before The Path to 9/11 entered the production stage, Disney/ABC signed David Cunningham as the film's director. Cunningham is no ordinary Hollywood journeyman. He is in fact the son of Loren Cunningham, founder of the right-wing evangelical group Youth With A Mission (YWAM). According to Sara Diamond's book Spiritual Warfare, during the 1980's YWAM "sought to gain influence within the Republican party" while assisting authoritarian governments in South Africa and Central America. Cunningham, Diamond noted, was a follower of Christian Reconstructionism, an extreme current of evangelical theology that advocates using stealth political methods to put the United States under the control of Biblical law and jettison the Constitution. Cunningham instilled his radical ideology in young missionaries by sending them to "Discipleship Training School." A former student of Cunningham's school claimed "similarities between cult mind controlling techniques and the [Discipleship Training School] program instituted by YWAM."

When the young Cunningham entered his father's ministry, he helped found an auxiliary group called The Film Institute (TFI). According to its mission statement, TFI is "dedicated to a Godly transformation and revolution TO and THROUGH the Film and Television industry." Cunningham has placed over a dozen interns from Youth With A Mission's Discipleship Training School in film industry jobs "so that they can begin to impact and transform Hollywood from the inside out," according to a YWAM report.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:13:06pm

re: #31 Obdicut

Ah. Then the only new thing in this interview for you would be a few remarks he makes about young evangelicals being different these days from back when he grew up, in a good way. The article I linked probably covers it well enough.

Yes, I read the article.

I use to read a lot of (daddy) Francis Schaeffer's, I've belonged to all sorts of christian sects, both for fun and study. It's my topic, comparative religion.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:13:18pm

re: #4 Obdicut

I saw a pretty good interview with him recently, can't remember where.

My favorite thing that Shaeffer said, about Reverend Wright:

[W]hen my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr."

How soon they forget!

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:13:29pm

re: #19 Walter L. Newton

That's good, I was just wondering if that was an emphasis of a certain christian sect or in general?

No real clue, I am only aware of it in very vague terms.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:13:41pm

re: #37 McSpiff

22. Explained the naivety im sure ;-)

I don't find you naive.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:14:20pm

re: #41 laZardo

Fuck, and I thought I was (once again?) the youngest lizard on LGF. ;_;

I know you're young because you know the proper emoticons. ^_^ I'm 33, I think I'm still in the youngest 20 percentile!

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:15:30pm

re: #24 Bagua

[Video]

I'm reduced to utter nonsense.

McSpiff Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:15:53pm

re: #46 Walter L. Newton

I don't find you naive.

Drat. Was really hoping to use that as an excuse.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:16:06pm

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

No real clue, I am only aware of it in very vague terms.

The person in question in the article studied at Baylor.

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:18:41pm

re: #24 Bagua

[Video]

OH, GLORIOUS GLORIOUS GLORIUS!

sngnsgt Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:19:19pm

re: #28 McSpiff

OT, but in my time zone... It's my birthday!

18 again eh?

Locker Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:19:27pm

Watched a film last night by Julia Sweeney called Letting Go of God. She was Catholic but it the same sort of flavor, very funny and touching. We really enjoyed it.

imdb.com - Letting Go of God (2008)

Locker Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:20:22pm

re: #28 McSpiff

OT, but in my time zone... It's my birthday!

Happy birthday brother. Have a fantastic one, party hard (this weekend) and be safe.

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:20:26pm

I wonder what LGF demographics are? I'm 44 for two more days.

Dancing along the light of day Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:20:48pm

re: #28 McSpiff

OT, but in my time zone... It's my birthday!

Have a REALLY REALLY great one!

freetoken Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:21:00pm

re: #55 Irenicum

I'd bet you're spot on the average age here.

Sharmuta Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:21:12pm

re: #55 Irenicum

I wonder what LGF demographics are? I'm 44 for two more days.

I wonder if I'm the only one listening to the interview.

McSpiff Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:21:20pm

Thanks all.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:21:35pm

re: #55 Irenicum

I wonder what LGF demographics are? I'm 44 for two more days.

Everyone here knows my age, hell I mention it enough.

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:21:45pm

re: #59 McSpiff

Yw.

Jaerik Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:22:42pm

A similar parting of ways this year by the son of Fred Phelps, the leader of the crazy fundamentalist Westboro Baptist Church folks, here:

[Link: natephelps.com...]

Dancing along the light of day Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:22:46pm

re: #55 Irenicum

I am 29, again & again & again.......

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:22:57pm

re: #55 Irenicum

I wonder what LGF demographics are? I'm 44 for two more days.

36 over here.

BruceKelly Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:23:05pm

re: #58 Sharmuta

I wonder if I'm the only one listening to the interview.

*head-down* I was listening to the Hendrix clip.

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:23:11pm

re: #57 freetoken

Now mentally and emotionally...I'm still pretty young, or is that immature?

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:23:31pm

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm 32, and actually glad to be out of my 20s.

freetoken Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:23:46pm

While Franky disses the movement that made much use of his father's writing, his father, Francis, was not a intellectual lightweight.

I remember reading He Is There and He Is Not Silent years ago, and thinking that it was one of the better popular expositions of certain theological doctrines from a Calvinist perspective.

Dancing along the light of day Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:23:46pm

re: #66 Irenicum

Now mentally and emotionally...I'm still pretty young, or is that immature?

Yes.
Giggles, being silly.

Varek Raith Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:24:15pm

re: #55 Irenicum

I wonder what LGF demographics are? I'm 44 for two more days.

re: #58 Sharmuta

I wonder if I'm the only one listening to the interview.

I'm listening.

Locker Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:25:10pm

re: #58 Sharmuta

I wonder if I'm the only one listening to the interview.

Is there going to be a test later?! How come no one told me there was a test later?! Is it too late to bribe the teacher?

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:25:16pm

re: #58 Sharmuta

I wonder if I'm the only one listening to the interview.

This is not new news, not for me anyway. I use to read his dads stuff all the time and the son left the religious right in the 1980s. I remember when that happened.

BruceKelly Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:25:28pm

I'm 51 but my friends all say that I'm immature for my age.

That's a compliment, right?

jaunte Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:25:45pm

Heh. Schaeffer:
"...this modern "post-Ayn-Rand vision" of Christianity"..."is profoundly anti-Christian."

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:25:58pm

Seeing as how my IRL name is also Francis S., I think maybe I've found my doppelganger (being the site's resident nihilistic-atheist).

Now if only I could figure out if it's the father or the son.

Sharmuta Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:26:45pm

re: #65 BruceKelly

*head-down* I was listening to the Hendrix clip.

It's a pretty good interview.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:27:02pm

re: #68 freetoken

While Franky disses the movement that made much use of his father's writing, his father, Francis, was not a intellectual lightweight.

I remember reading He Is There and He Is Not Silent years ago, and thinking that it was one of the better popular expositions of certain theological doctrines from a Calvinist perspective.

I read that and agree. No, his father was certainly no lightweight, and there were MANY people from numerous christian sects that respected his books, Calvinist or not.

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:27:03pm

re: #68 freetoken

I too have a lot of Francis Schaeffer's material, and have enjoyed much of it. Though his Christian Manifesto is straight out culture warrior stuff and really turned me off.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:27:57pm

re: #73 BruceKelly

I'm 51 but my friends all say that I'm immature for my age.

That's a compliment, right?

Yea.

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:28:01pm

re: #74 jaunte

Totally agree. How anyone could advocate Ayn Rand and still call themselves a Christian is beyond my imagination.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:28:18pm

re: #67 Obdicut

I'm 32, and actually glad to be out of my 20s.

The thirties are a lot better than the twenties, I find.

McSpiff Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:28:47pm

re: #76 Sharmuta

It's a pretty good interview.

Pretty good version of happy birthday too!

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:28:52pm

re: #73 BruceKelly

It is to me!

Sharmuta Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:29:09pm

I've never read Ayn Rand, and I keep getting the impression I don't want to.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:29:15pm

re: #74 jaunte

Heh. Schaeffer:
"...this modern "post-Ayn-Rand vision" of Christianity"..."is profoundly anti-Christian."

Did Ayn Rand really have that much impact on Christianity? (Could be, I have no idea.)

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:29:28pm

re: #80 Irenicum

Totally agree. How anyone could advocate Ayn Rand and still call themselves a Christian is beyond my imagination.

"Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?"

/I need to try Bioshock. Fun game, I hear.

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:30:42pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

I've never read Ayn Rand, and I keep getting the impression I don't want to.

I read Anthem, which didn't encourage me to go further. As I've mentioned before, I threw Anthem across the room, and I think that could be dangerous with the longer novels, especially in hardbound library format.

Charles Johnson Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:31:55pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

I've never read Ayn Rand, and I keep getting the impression I don't want to.

Ayn Rand is excellent reading if you need help overcoming insomnia.

Sharmuta Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:32:31pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

That's how I felt after finishing Great Expectations. More like Great Disappointment.

Locker Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:32:34pm

Canadians don't have souls so they can't have birthdays... and they can't be pirates either.

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:33:02pm

re: #53 Locker

We really enjoyed it.

You got a mouse in your pocket?

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:33:05pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

re: #85 SanFranciscoZionist

Ayn Rand is Nietzche as applied to capitalism. I love capitalism, but she took it to idolatrous ends. She also was incredibly tendentious adn was downright cultish in her relation to her followers. A serious whack job if you ask em.

Sharmuta Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:33:14pm

re: #88 Charles

Ayn Rand is excellent reading if you need help overcoming insomnia.

Thanks for the tip. lol

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:33:23pm

re: #92 Irenicum

em should be me. duh!

SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:34:43pm

re: #90 Locker

Canadians don't have souls so they can't have birthdays... and they can't be pirates either.

What about Robert Chevalier?

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:35:51pm

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

Or Paul Shaffer? Now there's a Shaffer I could follow!

Dark_Falcon Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:36:17pm

re: #57 freetoken

I'd bet you're spot on the average age here.

I'm 32.

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:37:53pm

It's fascinating to see what people's real age is after having read their comments. Sometimes it comes as no surprise, but other times its a real shocker.

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:38:13pm

Remember Hamas?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

100

Summer Seale Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:39:40pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

Way to go on the hat tip, Summer!

Thank youuuuu =)

It's a great interview! I'm glad Charles listened to it. I don't agree with everything he says in the interview, but he sure stands 95% of the way in the same place I do. I wish more people were rational about things in the way he is.

101

Jaerik Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:40:18pm

29, here.

102

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:41:05pm

re: #88 Charles

But Glenn Beck loves her writing. She must be good!
/// (as if that were necessary)

103

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:41:23pm

re: #101 Jaerik

29, here.

Okay.

104

MandyManners Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:42:11pm

re: #99 MandyManners

Remember Hamas?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

105

Sharmuta Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:42:16pm

re: #100 Summer

I'm still listening- it's really interesting so far, and I'd like to look into his book, but my reading list is so long, it will be awhile, so the interview is great. Thanks.

I hope you are doing well, too and have a great holiday.

106

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:42:46pm

re: #100 Summer

Congratulations! What brought your interest in Schaeffer about?

107

BruceKelly Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:43:47pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

I've never read Ayn Rand, and I keep getting the impression I don't want to.

I have and I find it a slog. I've never made it through one of her audio books without falling asleep (definitely not road-trip material). The best I can recommend is watch that old Gary Cooper movie "The Fountainhead."

Still listening to the interview. It's pretty good so far, in a scary way.

108

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:44:01pm

re: #57 freetoken

I'd bet you're spot on the average age here.

That's what I would guess. Skews mid-late 40s.

109

Jaerik Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:44:28pm

re: #104 MandyManners

Are you quoting yourself? I'm confused.

110

Four More Tears Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:44:37pm

re: #85 SanFranciscoZionist

Did Ayn Rand really have that much impact on Christianity? (Could be, I have no idea.)

Actually... Ayn Rand had more of an impact on Satanism. I shit you not.

111

Summer Seale Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:44:52pm

re: #106 Irenicum

Congratulations! What brought your interest in Schaeffer about?

Nothing in particular...it's just that I'm subscribed to Point of Inquiry podcast since a long, long time. =) They tend to be really fascinating interviews most of the time. Definitely one of my favorite shows.

112

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:45:34pm

re: #111 Summer

Thanks. I'll do the same.

113

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:45:53pm

re: #99 MandyManners

Cool, McSpiff is as old as Hamas. :D

/braces

114

McSpiff Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:46:45pm

re: #113 laZardo

Cool, McSpiff is as old as Hamas. :D

/braces

And the ninja turtles! [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

115

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:46:56pm

re: #110 JasonA

Makes sense actually Logical Positivism is all about the actualization of the self will. Not surprised at all.

116

Gus Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:47:37pm

Excellent interview. I'm finding nothing to disagree with Frank Schaeffer and as usual it's very enlightening.

100%! A+

117

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:48:00pm

re: #86 laZardo

"Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?"

/I need to try Bioshock. Fun game, I hear.

Bioshock is fantastic, and has some of the best art direction and writing I've ever seen in a game. Though I believe System Shock 2 (same devs, Ken Levine is the lead on both games) is better and scarier, if a little more core and a little more quirky. I'd start with Bioshock, because it's an easier game to get into, and if you're core enough to play with WSAD and a mouse, and don't mind 10-year-old graphics and an engine meant to run on a Pentium 400, Shock 2 will get in your head and stay there.

118

Jaerik Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:48:35pm

I managed to get through Atlas Shrugged. It really strikes a chord when you're 14, think you're smarter than everyone else, and you're just being held back and misunderstood by a system of brain-dead collectivist leeches.

The fact that said leeches provide the roof over your head and the food you eat is blissfully ignored, the same way Ayn Rand supporters ignore the publicly funded roads they use to get to and from their self-congratulatory circle-jerk sessions.

119

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:48:52pm

OT/
Revkin to take NYT buyout. That just sucks.

120

Four More Tears Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:48:58pm

re: #115 Irenicum

Makes sense actually Logical Positivism is all about the actualization of the self will. Not surprised at all.

Well, Satanism suffers from a bit of a... marketing problem? It's not what people think it is. Not my cup of tea, but much more about the self than about any Dark Lord blah blah blah.

121

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:49:05pm

re: #114 McSpiff

I'm old as Robocop.

Give or take a couple days. O:

122

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:49:34pm

re: #114 McSpiff

And the ninja turtles! [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Oh yeah :D I was into the original mirage b/w Turtles comics. Still have them, actually, in their collected colored book form, the editions that came out in the late 80's along with the TMNT RPG.

123

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:49:41pm

re: #118 Jaerik

Wow. Very well put.

124

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:49:43pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

Bioshock is fantastic, and has some of the best art direction and writing I've ever seen in a game. Though I believe System Shock 2 (same devs, Ken Levine is the lead on both games) is better and scarier, if a little more core and a little more quirky. I'd start with Bioshock, because it's an easier game to get into, and if you're core enough to play with WSAD and a mouse, and don't mind 10-year-old graphics and an engine meant to run on a Pentium 400, Shock 2 will get in your head and stay there.

My laptop is top-of-the-line for 2004. I'm sure it'll do just fine. O:

125

Dark_Falcon Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:49:50pm

re: #102 Irenicum

But Glenn Beck loves her writing. She must be good!
/// (as if that were necessary)

He also likes Sarah Palin's "writing", so there you go. Though I did enjoy Palin's taking William Shatner's tactic and spinning it around on him on The Tonight Show. Part of her appeal is that is does not take herself too seriously. I still don't like her as a leader, and I won't vote for her, but she did make me laugh with her, not at her.

126

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:50:13pm

re: #116 Gus 802

Meh, I think Dawkins gets a bad rap, and comparing him in any way to Limbaugh is ridiculous, but other than that, it's good stuff.

127

Gus Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:50:50pm

re: #126 Obdicut

Meh, I think Dawkins gets a bad rap, and comparing him in any way to Limbaugh is ridiculous, but other than that, it's good stuff.

Oh, I'm still listening.

Did he say that?

128

Summer Seale Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:50:54pm

re: #105 Sharmuta

I'm still listening- it's really interesting so far, and I'd like to look into his book, but my reading list is so long, it will be awhile, so the interview is great. Thanks.

I hope you are doing well, too and have a great holiday.

Oh and I'm totally fine. I read the site several times a day, but I've been really busy creating stuff in 3D for the holiday season in Second Life. (I know..me, an Atheist! But I actually love Christmas time and Hannukah). Made the cutest little gingerbread house all in 3D and just finished an "ice sculpture" in 3D of The Ghost of Christmas Present for the third annual contest (I'm first place winner the last two years). =)

Been exhausting but lots of fun. That statue I finished in 3D this morning was the last thing I "had" to create for the season so I'm going to try to take it a bit easier now hehe.

I know this must make no sense to people who don't know SL. Just let's say that I'm a 3D artist who makes content for a client base there and that should help explain most things. =)

129

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:52:10pm

re: #120 JasonA

Lavey reveled in the "marketing problem." A true showman and sideshow barker.

130

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:53:20pm

re: #127 Gus 802

He says, paraphrasing, you don't have to choose between them, that there are more reasonable people in the middle. I don't think those are fair points on a spectrum; Dawkins can be rude and tactlessly blunt, but he's also an amazingly brilliant scientist.

131

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:53:37pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

I gotta get that clip. I heard it was pretty good.

132

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:53:49pm

re: #124 laZardo

My laptop is top-of-the-line for 2004. I'm sure it'll do just fine. O:

Well, you'll have the opposite problem, which is getting Shock 2 to run on newer 3d laptop cards with fussy drivers and XP (or vista). Sometimes it installs and works great! Sometimes... madness. There's a lot of people who have figured out tricks for getting it to run on XP and Vista, but it can be a bear. Worth it, though. The game is frankly terrifying. 8-)

133

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:54:42pm

re: #130 Obdicut

Dawkins is kinda like Limbaugh in the sense that my "tweener-20s artsy atheist blogger" demographic are the choir that he preaches to (or at least receives.)

134

Dark_Falcon Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:55:03pm

re: #122 WindUpBird

Oh yeah :D I was into the original mirage b/w Turtles comics. Still have them, actually, in their collected colored book form, the editions that came out in the late 80's along with the TMNT RPG.

They actually had a recent episode of the new TMNT cartoon where they made the new, edgier, turtles products of an alternate dimension and brought the original Turtles characters over to the new series. It was on at work and I only saw part of it, but they seem to have taken a page off of the new Star Trek.

135

Jadespring Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:55:14pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

Bioshock is fantastic, and has some of the best art direction and writing I've ever seen in a game. Though I believe System Shock 2 (same devs, Ken Levine is the lead on both games) is better and scarier, if a little more core and a little more quirky. I'd start with Bioshock, because it's an easier game to get into, and if you're core enough to play with WSAD and a mouse, and don't mind 10-year-old graphics and an engine meant to run on a Pentium 400, Shock 2 will get in your head and stay there.

I had Bioshock sitting on my shelf for ages. I got it with Oblivion but had little interest in playing it because I didn't think I'd like it. Well I got the stupid H1N1 last month and during the recovery got bored and thought what the heck I'll at least try it out. Wow is all I can say. It completely sucked me in and I finished it in a few days. It was disturbing and creepy and yes the story was fantastic. I wish I could erase it from my memory so I could play it again.

136

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:55:25pm

re: #128 Summer

Oh and I'm totally fine. I read the site several times a day, but I've been really busy creating stuff in 3D for the holiday season in Second Life. (I know..me, an Atheist! But I actually love Christmas time and Hannukah). Made the cutest little gingerbread house all in 3D and just finished an "ice sculpture" in 3D of The Ghost of Christmas Present for the third annual contest (I'm first place winner the last two years). =)

Been exhausting but lots of fun. That statue I finished in 3D this morning was the last thing I "had" to create for the season so I'm going to try to take it a bit easier now hehe.

I know this must make no sense to people who don't know SL. Just let's say that I'm a 3D artist who makes content for a client base there and that should help explain most things. =)

Hey, another 3d artist! Righteous. 8-) I have a character on SL, but I never really go there anymore, the client doesn't like my laptop and I got too busy to keep up. I made a couple outfit skins there, but nothing with prims.

137

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:55:32pm

re: #126 Obdicut

Dawkins does like to pick his strawmen carefully. He prefers debating idiots and YEC's. They just make his point for him. Christians or other theists who also take science seriously pose a tougher task. I'd love to see him debate them.

138

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:56:01pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

TMNT Forever! I know, and I want to see it. Geek out overdrive.

139

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:56:38pm

re: #133 laZardo

Limbaugh preaches to tweener-20s artsy atheist bloggers?

And anyway, Dawkins mainly preaches to other biologists, given that he's an incredibly important biologist. He'll go down in scientific history for his contributions to biology; Limbaugh will go down in the history of piling shit upon turd.

140

Gus Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:56:53pm

re: #126 Obdicut

Meh, I think Dawkins gets a bad rap, and comparing him in any way to Limbaugh is ridiculous, but other than that, it's good stuff.

Rush Limbaugh's mind is like that of gnat compared to Dawkin.

I enjoy listening to Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett, etc.

I agree with them on most everything philosophical. Or more to the point in thinking things such as "I survived for billions and billions of years before the day I was born." I should be able to "survive" the billions of years after I die.

If that means anything.

141

Sharmuta Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:57:43pm

re: #128 Summer

I'm glad to hear you're well, Hon. Merry Christmas. :)

142

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:58:02pm

re: #137 Irenicum

Dawkins specifically does not debate creationists, and has written that it's bad to debate creationists.

Why I Won't Debate Creationists

So what are you talking about?

143

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:58:24pm

re: #135 Jadespring

If you love Bioshock, you will likely adore System Shock 2. Many of the things you love in Bioshock are in SS2, but with a more hard sci-fi edge, and more of a horror angle. And since it's a ten year old game, you can probably find a copy on ebay for like 5 bucks.

144

Four More Tears Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:58:31pm

re: #129 Irenicum

Lavey reveled in the "marketing problem." A true showman and sideshow barker.

Oh I'm sure he did. All I meant was that it's misunderstood, and intentionally so. I see his logic, it just doesn't resonate with me, if you know what I mean.

145

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:58:35pm

re: #139 Obdicut

I meant that he's regarded by my demographic in the same way that conservatives view Limbaugh - quite highly, and as a powerful weapon against the ideological "opposite."

146

Summer Seale Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:58:38pm

re: #136 WindUpBird

Hey, another 3d artist! Righteous. 8-) I have a character on SL, but I never really go there anymore, the client doesn't like my laptop and I got too busy to keep up. I made a couple outfit skins there, but nothing with prims.

Oh kewl! I'm basically a sculptor in Maya for products in SL that I make. Tomorrow is my official "third rezday" which means I'm officially three years old in SL. =)

I don't really do skins or regular texture outfits. All my stuff is prims (when I was new) to fully sculpted and baked prims and lots of particles (I'm the sparkle particle queen apparently... =) )

But if you do log on, IM me: I'm Summer Seale and I'll show you my stuff and I'll totally say hi. =)

Anyway, about to log in there. I wanna say hi to a few friends tonight after so much work.

147

Gus Mon, Dec 14, 2009 8:58:58pm

re: #139 Obdicut

Limbaugh preaches to tweener-20s artsy atheist bloggers?

And anyway, Dawkins mainly preaches to other biologists, given that he's an incredibly important biologist. He'll go down in scientific history for his contributions to biology; Limbaugh will go down in the history of piling shit upon turd.

Limbaugh "preaches" to angry under-educated white males. He has no theories. Only bombastic pablum to sell over the AM radio waves.

148

Varek Raith Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:00:40pm

SHODAN > Skynet.
:)
And speaking of graphics cards, I found my old Voodoo 5 5500 in some random box this morning. Lol. Wonder if it still works...

149

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:00:54pm

re: #140 Gus 802

Have I mentioned Don Cupitt to you yet? Really worth checking out: he believes in, as he says, "A God as real as love."

There's an excellent interview with him in the book "What Philosophers Think", as well.

150

Jadespring Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:00:57pm

re: #143 WindUpBird

If you love Bioshock, you will likely adore System Shock 2. Many of the things you love in Bioshock are in SS2, but with a more hard sci-fi edge, and more of a horror angle. And since it's a ten year old game, you can probably find a copy on ebay for like 5 bucks.

Thanks I'll keep an eye out for it. Bioshock was so amazing that I played it for 14 hours straight. I'm glad I was sick because I didn't have to feel totally guilty doing it. :)

151

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:01:57pm

re: #148 Varek Raith

Chance of finding drivers for it-- low.

152

Irenicum Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:02:45pm

re: #142 Obdicut

I misspoke then. Thanks for the reference. I still think that he typically conflates theism with YEC idiocy. And that's itself idiotic. That was more my point. By the way, I also agree, that when it comes to the actual science, he's brilliant.

153

Varek Raith Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:06:58pm

re: #151 Obdicut

Chance of finding drivers for it-- low.

:) I'm sure I got the CD that came with it somewhere... Afterall, I recently rediscovered my Master of Orion 2 disk. Huzzah!

154

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:07:56pm

re: #152 Irenicum

No problem, sorry if I was snippy.

He does conflate theism and YEC idiocy, in a way, as do I. To me-- and to him, I think-- they appear the same: they're belief in an unreal, unprovable thing that there's no reason to believe in. From the perspective of some atheists, like myself, there's no difference between a god and a ghost, or a reasonable, pleasant god who loves puppies or a vengeful YEC god: they both just don't exist.

We do notice, and Dawkins has talked about, the extreme difference in the people who believe in one versus the other, though. I have worked with and work with people of strong faith, and only in one case did I find the person unreasonable in any way due to religion; I felt the rest of them were stronger people for their religion, which existed almost entirely as an expression of their love for humankind.

I urge you to check out the Don Cupitt link above; he's an 'atheist' priest who does an amazingly good job of stressing the wonderful aspects to religion.

155

Four More Tears Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:08:29pm

re: #153 Varek Raith

:) I'm sure I got the CD that came with it somewhere... Afterall, I recently rediscovered my Master of Orion 2 disk. Huzzah!

mmm Moo2. That takes me back.

156

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:09:32pm

re: #153 Varek Raith

:) I'm sure I got the CD that came with it somewhere... Afterall, I recently rediscovered my Master of Orion 2 disk. Huzzah!

Oh you bastard. I burned a hole in my disc four years ago with a dropped cigarette, and have never forgiven myself. One of the best games ever.

Tell me, are you the kind of guy who rushes out with lots of tiny ships real quick, or do you hang back and develop tech (while still colonizing, of course) so that you can build big-ass high-tech ships that could take on an entire fleet at once?

157

laZardo Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:11:15pm

I'll just get the PS3 version of Bioshock. ;D Moving onto the next thread.

158

Varek Raith Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:12:12pm

re: #156 Obdicut

Oh you bastard. I burned a hole in my disc four years ago with a dropped cigarette, and have never forgiven myself. One of the best games ever.

Tell me, are you the kind of guy who rushes out with lots of tiny ships real quick, or do you hang back and develop tech (while still colonizing, of course) so that you can build big-ass high-tech ships that could take on an entire fleet at once?

I usually like to swarm lots of little ships. Though, sometimes I bring out my Invincible Doom Ships of, uh, Dooooom!

159

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:13:12pm

re: #158 Varek Raith

I usually like to swarm lots of little ships. Though, sometimes I bring out my Invincible Doom Ships of, uh, Dooom!

I like using that weapon-that-spins-big-ships-around, because, boy, those aliens must get dizzy!

MOO3 = one of the biggest letdowns of my gaming life. I was such a damn believer, right up until I played it.

160

Gus Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:14:15pm

OK, he said "the idea of cosmology is sort of a joke." Doesn't sound like he really listened or read Dawkins or Dennett. The first part is interesting but the his end comments are all over the place.

I take back my A+.

161

Varek Raith Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:14:16pm

re: #159 Obdicut

I like using that weapon-that-spins-big-ships-around, because, boy, those aliens must get dizzy!

MOO3 = one of the biggest letdowns of my gaming life. I was such a damn believer, right up until I played it.

Yes, indeed. I bought that when it first came out. Mods have made it somewhat playable, though, not by much. :(

162

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:15:41pm

re: #161 Varek Raith

It's dead to me.

Have you tried Galactic Civilizations? Not quite MOOII, but obviously a huge homage to it. Quite solid, though it can take freaking for-ever.

163

Jaerik Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:18:00pm

Always been much more of a fan of Sagan's "Demon-Haunted World" than Dawkins. Not sure why -- I think it's because Sagan seems to offer a constructive alternative framework through which to examine all such arguments, and then lets folks make up their own minds on specific questions like evolution versus creationism. The end result is often the same, but Sagan seems less combative/didactic in his methods. Dawkins always read like he had a chip on his shoulder, but that's probably just me.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

164

Varek Raith Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:19:34pm

re: #162 Obdicut

It's dead to me.

Have you tried Galactic Civilizations? Not quite MOOII, but obviously a huge homage to it. Quite solid, though it can take freaking for-ever.

Yes, I got GalCiv 1 + the expansion and GalCiv II + its 2 expansions. Awesome games.

165

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:19:56pm

re: #163 Jaerik

Have you read Dennett? Darwin's Dangerous Idea is my favorite of his.

166

Obdicut Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:21:30pm

re: #164 Varek Raith

I agree; I think that if I hadn't played MOO2 I'd think they were perfect space-strategy games but... I loved MOO2. Nothing will ever replace it in my heart.

Those bastard Antarans!

And with that, I'm out. Goodnight.

167

Jaerik Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:22:40pm

re: #165 Obdicut

Have you read Dennett? Darwin's Dangerous Idea is my favorite of his.

I have not; thanks for the recommendation. Just grabbed it from Kindle.

168

Four More Tears Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:22:46pm

re: #166 Obdicut

I agree; I think that if I hadn't played MOO2 I'd think they were perfect space-strategy games but... I loved MOO2. Nothing will ever replace it in my heart.

Those bastard Antarans!

And with that, I'm out. Goodnight.

Ever try Star Trek: Birth of the Federation?

Don't.

169

Summer Seale Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:23:14pm

re: #160 Gus 802

OK, he said "the idea of cosmology is sort of a joke." Doesn't sound like he really listened or read Dawkins or Dennett. The first part is interesting but the his end comments are all over the place.

I take back my A+.

I agree too, I don't agree with his end comments about "the new atheists". But the point is, he's engaged and intersting to listen to. He sounds like he'd be interesting in a debate about it.

I actually like Dawkins and Harris and the others. I don't always agree with them (sometimes I really disagree with them). Same with a lot of what Schaeffer said: I agree with a lot of it, disagree with some. But it makes for a great interview and interesting insight into the foundations of the other side.

170

Jaerik Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:25:38pm

And I totally just realized that Charles allows (a href)'s.

Sorry for my hitherto gimpy-ass link usage. Don't hold it against me.

171

Mary Garth Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:39:20pm

re: #77 Walter L. Newton

I read that and agree. No, his father was certainly no lightweight, and there were MANY people from numerous christian sects that respected his books, Calvinist or not.

Just finished listening to the interview and Schaeffer acknowledges that his father was a serious theologian and very knowledgeable about art and philosophy. It sounds like his father was a very conflicted man. He was a far cry from many of the other leaders of the religious right and was very offended by the way that many of them profited from it (he mentions the luxurious airplane that was owned by Jerry Falwell's organization, for example).

Great interview! I want to read his two most recent books now.

172

Seltzer123 Mon, Dec 14, 2009 9:55:08pm

re: #111 Summer

I too am a fan of Point of Inquiry.

The last time LGF linked to a Point of Inquiry podcast was a 2006 Salman Rushdie interview.

Here is the LGF link: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

173

Bob Levin Tue, Dec 15, 2009 12:48:39am

This was an impressive interview--that is, it made a real impression on me. This guy has lived a life and had experiences that are so foreign to my own. His first person narrative is very powerful. If you take this, and place it in the context of this website, it's like Charles is Holmes, piecing together the puzzle bit by bit, and this is where a character makes a full confession, thus confirming Holmes' picture of the events.

This sort of relates to what we were talking about last night, who do you vote for. It gets down to, it seems, the Incompetents or the Crazies. So, is candidate A crazier than candidate B is incompetent, or vice versa?

And so it goes.

174

Cobdenite Tue, Dec 15, 2009 2:52:56am

re: #88 Charles

Yes, let's disavow the woman who predicted the take-over of the Republican party by the religious right sometime in the 60's. Or the one who has actually noted the increasingly anti-reason and anti-science trend in modern culture and politics, long before the anti-VD, holistic BS sprouted.

Don't let Pamela Geller ruin your impression of Rand. Geller is a lunatic. Her fascism is personal.

Unless it's Capitalism that you have an issue with. However, that's a different topic, and one that most posts on LGF rarely touch on.

175

myfriendwatson Tue, Dec 15, 2009 3:25:10am

Oz Guiness spent a lot of time at L'Abri with the Schaeffer family and has this response to Frankie's book.

For six years I was as close to Frank as anyone outside his own family, and probably closer than many in his family. I was his best man at his wedding. Life has taken us in different directions over the past thirty years, but I counted him my dear friend and went through many of the escapades he recounts and many more that would not bear rehearsing in print. It pains me to say, then, that his portrait is cruel, distorted, and self-serving, but I cannot let it pass unchallenged without a strong insistence on a different way of seeing the story. There is all the difference in the world between flaws and hypocrisy. Francis and Edith Schaeffer were lions for truth. No one could be further from con artists, even unwitting con artists, than the Francis and Edith Schaeffer I knew, lived with, and loved.

176

JEA62 Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:01:35am

Having experienced firsthand the frauds, bigots, dictators, and busybodies of the religious right, the bad taste of them will forever be in my mouth.

I don't doubt the sincerity of believers. I just object to the idea of them dictating how I, and other Americans who don't follow their faith, are suppoed to live our lives.

Christian fundamentalists are just as dangerous - in fact moreso because they are more accepted in society - than Islamic fundamentalists.

177

myfriendwatson Tue, Dec 15, 2009 5:18:49am

re: #176 JEA62

First, I doubt that anyone has dictated how you should live. What law has the RR passed exactly that dictates how you should live.

Second, making them equivalent to Islamic fundamentalists renders you incapable of dealing with that problem.

Third, I'm tired of the left dictating how I should live.

I will admit that there is a group in the RR that seems to think that they can enact legislation that will make the pagans (no offense intended here) behave better. But, they have been spectacularly unscuccessful in enacting that agenda, haven't they?

178

Slap Tue, Dec 15, 2009 8:21:43am

re: #177 myfriendwatson

Seems a bit of a reach. Not knowing where he's lived, with whom he's been forced to be around in his daily life, and the circumstances that prompt his attitude, then turn around and non-sarcastically state you're tired of the opposite? Hence my downding.

IMHO, your stated refusal to consider the equivalence of Christian vs. Islamic fundamentalism whiffs of denialist patter. There have certainly been infinitely more direct examples of Islamic fundamentalist violence in our very recent history -- but my belief is that fundamentalism is anti-logic and anti-faith: fundamentalism is always based on dogma. The minute a person decides to act based on the belief that their dogma is superior to another's, we have problems. I can't think of a single example of benign religious fundamentalism. At best, one could state that Christian fundamentalists have not been politically violent as a group. Yet.

Am I saying the sky is falling? Hell no. I am saying that dismissing them as harmless or completely dissimilar is dangerous.

179

abolitionist Tue, Dec 15, 2009 8:34:59am

Just watched Caprica - Pilot Extended Cut on hulu. Crazy for God could have been the episode subtitle.

180

myfriendwatson Tue, Dec 15, 2009 9:00:47am

re: #178 Slap

I can't think of a single example of benign religious fundamentalism. At best, one could state that Christian fundamentalists have not been politically violent as a group. Yet.

I can think of plenty examples of leftists and Islamic fundamentalists that have. But I guess there is always hope that we Christians will do the same. ///

Not a single example, huh? Do you even really know any. I can think of thousands of good things Christian fundamentalists have done.

181

myfriendwatson Tue, Dec 15, 2009 9:20:31am

re: #178 Slap

By the way, when I said I doubted that "anyone had dictated" I meant in the sense that I doubted that religious fundamentalists had enacted laws that dictated how he lived. I'm hard pressed to think of any that the RR has really enacted.

I'm sure his parents told him what to do, but it now appears that he's free to live as he chooses. How awful for him.

182

blueherron Tue, Dec 15, 2009 9:21:16am

re: #155 JasonA

mmm Moo2. That takes me back.

Takes me back too. I named the original Master of Orion. I was creative director (marketing) at MicroProse at that time. Glad to see people remember it.

183

Wozza Matter? Tue, Dec 15, 2009 10:51:49am

He's on MSNBC a lot with fellow reformed charachter John Dean.

They both talk a lot of sense :-)

184

Copernic Tue, Dec 15, 2009 12:43:54pm

For those looking for really good Podcasts, I'd recommend Point of Inquiry. DJ Grothe is probably one of the best interviewers around. Superb ability to draw great points out of his guests, particularly if he disagrees with them.

185

JEA62 Wed, Dec 16, 2009 5:01:27am

re: #177 myfriendwatson

Actually, I said the idea of it. And the fact is that they have successfully moved the center of debate to the right.

And I'm also talking about extremists in the Christian community who want the US to be a 'Christian nation', complete with 'Christian' laws, not unlike 'Islamic republics' like Iran.

RE: 178 "I'm sure his parents told him what to do, but it now appears that he's free to live as he chooses. How awful for him." Sorry, Slap, but I was in the evangelical movement into my late 20s and a Catholic into my 40s, so my parents didn't 'dictate' my beliefs.

In fact, now no one dictates my beliefs except me. and if that isn't the case with you, you're the one I feel sorry for.

BTW, if anyone can show me an example of a benevolent religious state, either now or in the past, I'd be happy to change my opinion. The fact is they all have persecuted and continue to persecute people and groups who don't agree with them, from the Roman presecution of Christians to the wars between the Catholics and Protestants, from Bloody Mary right through to Khameini. The religion doesn't really matter, it's all been the same story.

186

Slap Wed, Dec 16, 2009 9:01:34am

re: #185 JEA62
re: #181 myfriendwatson

I'm sure his parents told him what to do, but it now appears that he's free to live as he chooses. How awful for him.

Just FYI, that was Watson's #181 in response to my #178. Not my words.

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