New Details: Terrorist Had a Very Powerful Bomb Sewn Into His Clothes

US News • Views: 4,582

New details on the attempted Christmas Day terror attack:

The plot to blow up an American passenger jet over Detroit was organized and launched by al Qaeda leaders in Yemen who apparently sewed bomb materials into the suspect’s underwear before sending him on his mission, federal authorities tell ABC News.

Investigators say the suspect had more than 80 grams of PETN, a compound related to nitro-glycerin used by the military. The so-called shoe bomber, Richard Reid, had only about 50 grams kin his failed attempt in 2001 to blow up a U.S.-bound jet. Yesterday’s bomb failed because the detonator may have been too small or was not in “proper contact” with the explosive material, investigators told ABC News.

So it was indeed a bomb, not just an “incendiary device” as earlier reports claimed — and a very powerful bomb at that. PETN is a notoriously unstable explosive, so the passengers on that plane are incredibly lucky that it didn’t detonate as intended.

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351 comments
1 Altermite  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:42:51pm

Exploding underwear? Goodness gracious.

2 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:43:03pm

I'm so glad tragedy was averted.

The poor father, too. How can you deal with your son becoming a terrorist?

3 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:43:16pm

This could have been very ugly, again I am thankful that terrorists are terrible at technology most of the time.

Salutes to the passenger who probably averted a disaster

4 Randall Gross  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:44:52pm

Now the big question: how did that much PETN get through two airports?

5 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:45:55pm

Underwear bomb.
How do we fight the underwear bomb?

6 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:48:29pm

The so-called shoe bomber, Richard Reid, had only about 50 grams kin his failed attempt in 2001 to blow up a U.S.-bound jet. Yesterday’s bomb failed because the detonator may have been too small or was not in “proper contact” with the explosive material, investigators told ABC News.

WTF.

7 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:48:47pm

250+ counts of attempted murder, right? Enough to put him away for several lifetimes.

Should he be tried in the USA?

Should he be held here before trial?

Should he be convicted and incarcerated (and possibly executed) here?

I say Yes, yes, and yes.

Puts the NYC trials of KSM into a new light, doesn't it?

8 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:48:57pm

I see England. I see France. I see exploding underpants.

9 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:49:00pm

Had to do some googling, as acronyms like "PETN" are far more fascinating when explained.

2,2Bis[(Nitrooxy)-methyl]-1,3propanediol dinitrate (ester), Pentaerytritol Tetranitrate, 2,2-bisdihydroxymethyl-1,3-propanediol tetranitrate, nitropentaerytritol, penthrit, niperyt, Lentrat, Hasethrol, Perityl, Terpate, Subicard, Pentryate, Pentitrate, C5H8N4O12 or simply PETN(1), this compound finds both medicinal use as a coronary Vasodilator (often mixed with lactose to reduce sensitivity) and extensive use in the explosive industry, as a very high power booster in blasting caps and also as the filler in detonating fuse (DetCord, Primacord)*.

I wasn't looking at how to make this stuff, actually, but after further reading of the page I copied the above from, I realize it's actually a how-to for creating this shit, so I'm not going to link it here...suffice it to say this shit is as easy to make as peanut brittle.

Peanut brittle (I don't feel bad linking this recipe)

10 MandyManners  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:49:39pm

re: #7 Linden Arden

250+ counts of attempted murder, right? Enough to put him away for several lifetimes.

Should he be tried in the USA?

Should he be held here before trial?

Should he be convicted and incarcerated (and possibly executed) here?

I say Yes, yes, and yes.

Puts the NYC trials of KSM into a new light, doesn't it?

Executed?

11 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:49:47pm

re: #7 Linden Arden

250+ counts of attempted murder, right? Enough to put him away for several lifetimes.

Should he be tried in the USA?

Should he be held here before trial?

Should he be convicted and incarcerated (and possibly executed) here?

I say Yes, yes, and yes.

Puts the NYC trials of KSM into a new light, doesn't it?

how so?

12 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:51:01pm

re: #7 Linden Arden

250+ counts of attempted murder, right? Enough to put him away for several lifetimes.

Should he be tried in the USA?

Should he be held here before trial?

Should he be convicted and incarcerated (and possibly executed) here?

I say Yes, yes, and yes.

Puts the NYC trials of KSM into a new light, doesn't it?

I don't think there's any question he'll be tried in the US. Happened in US airspace, jurisdiction settled.

13 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:52:48pm

re: #7 Linden Arden

250+ counts of attempted murder, right? Enough to put him away for several lifetimes.

Should he be tried in the USA?

Should he be held here before trial?

Should he be convicted and incarcerated (and possibly executed) here?

I say Yes, yes, and yes.

Puts the NYC trials of KSM into a new light, doesn't it?

No execution. You need a body for that. But I will go for a red neck whoopn'.

14 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:53:52pm

re: #7 Linden Arden

On what charge would he be executed?

15 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:54:31pm

re: #14 Obdicut

On what charge would he be executed?

He can't be.

16 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:55:07pm
Published reports in Nigeria said Abdulmutallab's father had contacted the U.S. embassy six months ago about concerns his son had become radicalized and could pose a threat to the U.S. One report said the father could not understand why his son was allowed to board a flight to the U.S. given his warning.

Indeed. WTF is going on? First, Fort Hood, now this. What does a terrorist have to do these days for someone in authority to take the threat serious?

17 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:56:05pm

re: #8 MandyManners

I see England. I see France. I see exploding underpants.


Speaking of caustic humor.

18 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:57:16pm

re: #8 MandyManners

I see England. I see France. I see exploding underpants.

I know I'm not supposed to laugh, but that was very cute.

I'm still voting for see-through-the-clothes xrays on particularly savory characters and this guy certainly seemed to count as one.

19 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:57:20pm

re: #14 Obdicut

On what charge would he be executed?

I'm not sure what the law says, this is just my opinion.. I don't see why there is any difference in the penalty for attempting to commit mass murder and actually doing it. What? we should go easy on the terrorists who are incompetent?

20 Gang of One  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:57:24pm

re: #8 MandyManners

I see England. I see France. I see exploding underpants.

Once upon a time we were shocked by edible skivvies. Now it's come to this, and we do what ... exactly?

21 Gang of One  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:58:55pm

re: #19 Mich-again

I'm not sure what the law says, this is just my opinion.. I don't see why there is any difference in the penalty for attempting to commit mass murder and actually doing it. What? we should go easy on the terrorists who are incompetent?

This one will face charges of attempted murder, etc. No one, thank God was hurt. Different crime.

22 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:59:06pm

re: #19 Mich-again

I'm not sure what the law says, this is just my opinion.. I don't see why there is any difference in the penalty for attempting to commit mass murder and actually doing it. What? we should go easy on the terrorists who are incompetent?

1st Degree murder needs a body.

23 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:59:09pm

re: #19 Mich-again

I'm not sure what the law says, this is just my opinion.. I don't see why there is any difference in the penalty for attempting to commit mass murder and actually doing it. What? we should go easy on the terrorists who are incompetent?

in this case yes...life, no chance of parole

24 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:59:22pm

re: #16 Mich-again

Indeed. WTF is going on? First, Fort Hood, now this. What does a terrorist have to do these days for someone in authority to take the threat serious?

There's a big difference between the psychologist who went on a shooting spree at Ft Hood and this guy. The psychologist actually targeted military personnel, going so far as to change his aim at the civilian police officer who ultimately shot him so he wouldn't kill her, while his other victims (all military people) were kill shots.

Best not to muddy the waters.

25 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 2:59:51pm

re: #19 Mich-again

I'm not sure what the law says, this is just my opinion.. I don't see why there is any difference in the penalty for attempting to commit mass murder and actually doing it. What? we should go easy on the terrorists who are incompetent?

Attempted murder is a very serious crime. But it does not carry the death penalty.

Life imprisonment in one of those private Christian prisons ministered run by evangelists seems like punishment enough.

26 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:00:47pm

re: #24 darthstar

Uh... what? If you shoot someone, you can't be sure of not killing them. I think you're giving Hasan a little bit too much credit there.

27 RadicalModerate  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:00:56pm

re: #14 Obdicut

On what charge would he be executed?

Don't think that he can be executed if found guilty of the criminal acts he's accused of. As has been mentioned before, his charges (attempted murder, explosive device, terrorism(?)) all require a death to occur before captial charges kick in.

Wikipedia link to Capital crimes

28 Gus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:00:56pm

This is video showing what 50g of PETN can do:

Youtube Video
29 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:01:20pm

re: #11 albusteve

how so?

How is yesterday's Al Qaeda terror planner different than KSM and 9/11?

They are guilty of the same crime - planning a terrorist attack on innocent travelers in the US.

Why try one here and leave another in Gitmo for a years upon years?

30 Gang of One  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:02:39pm

re: #29 Linden Arden

How is yesterday's Al Qaeda terror planner different than KSM and 9/11?

They are guilty of the same crime - planning a terrorist attack on innocent travelers in the US.

Why try one here and leave another in Gitmo for a years upon years?

Probably because this happened inside US airspace. IF the carrier were American, it would be considered US territory, even if in international airspace.

31 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:02:56pm

re: #29 Linden Arden

Well, they're definitely not guilty of the same crime, given that there were no deaths this time.

32 Existential_Donuts  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:03:09pm

The passengers and crew were certainly brave to jump in, they truly believed they were fighting for their lives. But, if I'm reading it correctly, the reason the tragedy was averted is because the device failed.
Serious dialogue sometimes gets lost in the hero worship that the media pours on following things like this.

Life is not a tv show, dammit.

33 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:03:14pm

re: #29 Linden Arden

How is yesterday's Al Qaeda terror planner different than KSM and 9/11?

They are guilty of the same crime - planning a terrorist attack on innocent travelers in the US.

Why try one here and leave another in Gitmo for a years upon years?

There sould be no GITMO, IMO.

34 AmeriDan  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:03:25pm

re: #7 Linden Arden

Puts the NYC trials of KSM into a new light, doesn't it?

No.

35 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:03:34pm

re: #26 Obdicut

Uh... what? If you shoot someone, you can't be sure of not killing them. I think you're giving Hasan a little bit too much credit there.

No, no credit to Hasan, but the officer who shot him said he had aimed at her head, paused, then took aim at her leg before shooting her. There were others who reported that he drew on them, but didn't fire. In other words, his war was with the US military, not just random people. It's a very minor difference, but it is a difference, and it will also be used as evidence to kill his 'temporary insanity' defense, as it shows he was focused on specific targets.

36 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:03:43pm

re: #29 Linden Arden

How is yesterday's Al Qaeda terror planner different than KSM and 9/11?

They are guilty of the same crime - planning a terrorist attack on innocent travelers in the US.

Why try one here and leave another in Gitmo for a years upon years?

I don't get it...who's being tried at Gitmo?...the Skivvie Bomber committed a civil crime and will probably be tried here in federal court

37 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:03:49pm

From now on, everybody flies NAKED!

38 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:04:48pm

re: #29 Linden Arden

How is yesterday's Al Qaeda terror planner different than KSM and 9/11?

They are guilty of the same crime - planning a terrorist attack on innocent travelers in the US.

Why try one here and leave another in Gitmo for a years upon years?

The manner in which KSM was taken into custody, and it's location, and the people who carried it out, makes KSM's jurisdiction murky, at best.

Here, we've got a guy caught in the act while in American airspace. Much more clearcut.

39 Gang of One  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:04:51pm

re: #37 acwgusa

From now on, everybody flies NAKED!

Most travelers look like the people in the malls I had to wade through. No thank you.

40 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:04:56pm

He sat in seat 19A - over the fuel tanks.

41 Four More Tears  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:05:16pm

re: #36 albusteve

Civil crime?

42 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:05:19pm

re: #36 albusteve

Skivvie Bomber? Please, tell me that's not going to be his nickname in the press. "Shoe-icide Bomber" was bad enough. Must we minimize things with our vocabulary to the point of idiocy? (not that I'm blaming you, btw)

43 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:05:54pm

re: #37 acwgusa

From now on, everybody flies NAKED!

Already metioned on a previous thread. But I am cold, so not me!!:)

44 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:06:02pm

re: #37 acwgusa

From now on, everybody flies NAKED!

Uh... have you seen most people who fly?

Disadvantages far outweigh the advantages.

45 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:06:12pm

re: #29 Linden Arden

How is yesterday's Al Qaeda terror planner different than KSM and 9/11?

They are guilty of the same crime - planning a terrorist attack on innocent travelers in the US.

Why try one here and leave another in Gitmo for a years upon years?

Also, just to correct a technical point: legally, neither is "guilty" of anything at the moment. I'm not even certain on whether either have been formally charged with anything yet. But guilt is determined by a judge, following a trial.

46 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:06:14pm

re: #40 FrogMarch
Was that an aisle or a window seat?
My gosh ...

47 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:06:19pm

re: #9 darthstar

Had to do some googling, as acronyms like "PETN" are far more fascinating when explained.

I wasn't looking at how to make this stuff, actually, but after further reading of the page I copied the above from, I realize it's actually a how-to for creating this shit, so I'm not going to link it here...suffice it to say this shit is as easy to make as peanut brittle.

Peanut brittle (I don't feel bad linking this recipe)

Just don't put it in your underwear.

48 Gang of One  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:06:40pm

re: #42 darthstar

Skivvie Bomber? Please, tell me that's not going to be his nickname in the press. "Shoe-icide Bomber" was bad enough. Must we minimize things with our vocabulary to the point of idiocy? (not that I'm blaming you, btw)

I take responsibility for bringing in the word "skivvies" in my #20.
/hangs head in shame ...

49 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:07:15pm

re: #46 Stuart Leviton

Was that an aisle or a window seat?
My gosh ...

Window.

50 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:07:29pm

re: #42 darthstar

Skivvie Bomber? Please, tell me that's not going to be his nickname in the press. "Shoe-icide Bomber" was bad enough. Must we minimize things with our vocabulary to the point of idiocy? (not that I'm blaming you, btw)

yeah, I just post whatever I want...cool blog huh?

51 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:07:44pm

re: #46 Stuart Leviton

Was that an aisle or a window seat?
My gosh ...

A is a window seat, I believe.

52 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:07:49pm

Don't want to make light. (Mandy? Adorable!)

I want this fucker dead.

53 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:07:57pm

re: #33 Cannadian Club Akbar

There sould be no GITMO, IMO.

Exactly my point - I should have revealed by bias.


Crimes against Americans should be tried here to the fullest extent the law allows.

54 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:08:21pm

re: #32 Existential_Donuts

The passengers and crew were certainly brave to jump in, they truly believed they were fighting for their lives. But, if I'm reading it correctly, the reason the tragedy was averted is because the device failed.
Serious dialogue sometimes gets lost in the hero worship that the media pours on following things like this.

Life is not a tv show, dammit.

True. The airlines can't rely on passengers to do the job they're supposed to do. It's far too dangerous.

Darthstar (I think) asked on the other thread about this guy coming out of Nigeria. Was he screened then and therefore not screened again in the Netherlands? Or passed through because he passed a previous screening? Are we (as in "Western world") relying on countries like Nigeria to do our screening?

55 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:08:44pm

re: #41 JasonA

Civil crime?

actually it was a pretty uncivil thing to do

56 golgoth  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:08:54pm

Dear sir,

I am a son of Nigerian banker who has been held by authorities for an unspecified reason. Because of this I am no longer able to access my grand wealth, which I am sure you are aware of totals in almost $100 million.

If you would please send a small transfer of funds, and a retaining fee for a lawyer, I will handsomely reward you with half of my wealth, almost $50 million dollars!

Please respond with your account number and pin to this email and we will be speaking soon.

/419ers,

57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:08:58pm

re: #54 marjoriemoon

Killer question, that.

58 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:09:05pm

His last known address was a 4 million dollar apartment?
So much for the poor poor victim theory.

59 Gus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:09:09pm

re: #14 Obdicut

On what charge would he be executed?

None. Here's the Complain Affidavit:

[Link: graphics8.nytimes.com...]

See final page of affidavit for charges.

---

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 2 > § 32
§ 32. Destruction of aircraft or aircraft facilities

Title 18 USC 32(a)(1) sets fire to, damages, destroys, disables, or wrecks any aircraft in the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States or any civil aircraft used, operated, or employed in interstate, overseas, or foreign air commerce;

Title 18 USC 32(a)(2) places or causes to be placed a destructive device or substance in, upon, or in proximity to, or otherwise makes or causes to be made unworkable or unusable or hazardous to work or use, any such aircraft, or any part or other materials used or intended to be used in connection with the operation of such aircraft, if such placing or causing to be placed or such making or causing to be made is likely to endanger the safety of any such aircraft;

Title 18 USC 32(a)(8)attempts or conspires to do anything prohibited under paragraphs (1) through (7) of this subsection;

shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years or both.

Looks like 20 years.

60 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:09:45pm

re: #43 Cannadian Club Akbar

Already metioned on a previous thread. But I am cold, so not me!!:)

See? And you thought I was crazy, didntcha.

61 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:10:16pm

re: #48 Gang of One

I take responsibility for bringing in the word "skivvies" in my #20.
/hangs head in shame ...

where were you last night, when I mentioned skivvies?

62 Filala  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:10:19pm

All I can say is thank God that this attempt at mass murder failed. Our own security measures need to be reexamined and strengthened. Our enemies are going to learn from this and keep trying to find and use our week spots. The passengers of this flight are lucky to still be alive and I hope they can overcome the trauma of what just happened.

63 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:10:26pm

Here's an interesting tidbit:

Father of suspect in foiled attack had relayed concerns to U.S. Embassy


The father of a man suspected of trying to bring down a Northwest Airlines jet recently contacted the U.S. Embassy in Nigeria about concerns that his son had "become radicalized" and could be planning something, a family source told CNN Saturday

Full story at the link.

64 Gus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:10:36pm

re: #59 Gus 802

Looks like 20 years.

Here's the complaint affidavit link.

65 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:10:54pm

re: #40 FrogMarch

He sat in seat 19A - over the fuel tanks.

Coincidence? Because frankly, asking for a specific seat, especially one over a wing, ought to set off all kinds of alarms bells and, at best, a reply of "No" followed by seat assignment in the least vulnerable section of the plane.

In fact, I thought this was already SOP, in place for years.

If this information pans out, of course.

66 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:10:56pm

re: #60 marjoriemoon

See? And you thought I was crazy, didntcha.

I was hoping to sit next to you.:)

67 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:11:00pm

re: #54 marjoriemoon

Yes, that was me. I had heard on NPR that the flight originated in Nigeria with a stop in Amsterdam. If he didn't deplane, then no secondary security pass would be required.

68 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:11:48pm

re: #32 Existential_Donuts

The passengers and crew were certainly brave to jump in, they truly believed they were fighting for their lives. But, if I'm reading it correctly, the reason the tragedy was averted is because the device failed.
Serious dialogue sometimes gets lost in the hero worship that the media pours on following things like this.

Life is not a tv show, dammit.

If they had not jumped in perhaps he would have had an opportunity to keep trying.

It's not "hero-worship" to appreciate the efforts of those who jumped in.

69 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:12:21pm

re: #56 golgoth

Not really funny considering the seriousness of this.

70 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:12:54pm

I'd make a video and show it off too!

71 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:12:57pm

re: #33 Cannadian Club Akbar

There sould be no GITMO, IMO.


I agree with you, but I don't think we should be taking non-uniformed combatants as prisoners anyway. They're battlefield combatants, treat them as such.

72 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:13:09pm

Does PETN have an odor?

I have an idea. Everyone who passes through airport security has to have their butt sniffed by a dog.

73 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:13:15pm

re: #53 Linden Arden

Exactly my point - I should have revealed by bias.

Crimes against Americans should be tried here to the fullest extent the law allows.

yeah!, give em American civil liberties too!

74 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:13:25pm

re: #65 SixDegrees

Booking online allows you to pick your seats, so it's quite possible he chose that seat, though with as much PETN as he had, any place on the plane would have been enough to blow out the cabin and drop the inside temperature from 70 degrees to about -65 degrees in a matter of seconds.

75 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:13:49pm

re: #65 SixDegrees

Coincidence? Because frankly, asking for a specific seat, especially one over a wing, ought to set off all kinds of alarms bells and, at best, a reply of "No" followed by seat assignment in the least vulnerable section of the plane.

In fact, I thought this was already SOP, in place for years.

If this information pans out, of course.

Good grief, it just keeps getting better and better. I mean really, other than hanging a sign on himself saying I'M GOING TO BLOW UP THIS PLANE how was this guy missed? (Or am I prematurely freaking)

76 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:14:03pm

The "bomber" has third degree burns.

Can I get an "awww"?

77 Filala  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:14:24pm

re: #33 Cannadian Club Akbar

IMHO Gitmo is the perfect place to keep terrorists.

78 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:14:47pm

re: #76 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The "bomber" has third degree burns.

Can I get an "awww"?

Hopefully, he's going owww, owww, owww.

79 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:14:48pm

re: #73 albusteve

yeah!, give em American civil liberties too!

How did that work out for Tim McVeigh?

80 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:14:57pm

re: #71 acwgusa

I agree with you, but I don't think we should be taking non-uniformed combatants as prisoners anyway. They're battlefield combatants, treat them as such.

I think we're on the same page.

81 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:15:51pm

re: #77 Filala

IMHO Gitmo is the perfect place to keep terrorists.

Don't let them get there.

82 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:15:55pm

re: #77 Filala

IMHO Gitmo is the perfect place to keep terrorists.

We shouldn't be capturing terrorists in the first place, just sifting through the crater left by the drone.

83 Filala  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:15:55pm

re: #62 Filala
Oops, weak spots.

84 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:15:57pm

re: #74 darthstar

Booking online allows you to pick your seats, so it's quite possible he chose that seat, though with as much PETN as he had, any place on the plane would have been enough to blow out the cabin and drop the inside temperature from 70 degrees to about -65 degrees in a matter of seconds.

Yes. Rather surprisingly, this need not be fatal. The pilot can drop very rapidly to a more hospitable altitude, say around 10,000 feet, in just a few seconds. It wouldn't be a pleasant ride, but exposure and lack of oxygen would not be the most serious concern.

85 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:16:02pm

re: #76 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The "bomber" has third degree burns.

Can I get an "awww"?

I'd be happy to provide the salt if someone else would be kind enough to rub it into his wounds.

86 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:16:14pm

re: #67 darthstar

Yes, that was me. I had heard on NPR that the flight originated in Nigeria with a stop in Amsterdam. If he didn't deplane, then no secondary security pass would be required.

Hmm, that would be a problem. Hopefully some changes will be made.

87 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:17:08pm

re: #80 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think we're on the same page.

Yes, we are. I'm dense enough that it took me a minute to figure that out.

88 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:17:20pm

re: #79 Linden Arden

How did that work out for Tim McVeigh?

I don't know...how?

89 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:17:42pm

re: #75 marjoriemoon

Good grief, it just keeps getting better and better. I mean really, other than hanging a sign on himself saying I'M GOING TO BLOW UP THIS PLANE how was this guy missed? (Or am I prematurely freaking)

Darthstar correctly points out that you can select your seat online - a practice that, perhaps, needs some modification. I always ask for an aisle seat, but don't care where on the plane I wind up, and even if I don't get the aisle it's not a showstopper. Seems like allowing column choices but not rows might be prudent.

90 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:17:48pm

I am really surprised at the amount of "wishing" that is going on down this thread, wishing that this guy was dead or hurting and other such language.

91 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:17:58pm

re: #65 SixDegrees

Coincidence? Because frankly, asking for a specific seat, especially one over a wing, ought to set off all kinds of alarms bells and, at best, a reply of "No" followed by seat assignment in the least vulnerable section of the plane.

In fact, I thought this was already SOP, in place for years.

If this information pans out, of course.

Seat assignments are often done on-line by use of a seat selection chart. I have no idea if it was lucky terrorist dumb luck - or part of a plan. It seems like more than just a coincidence. It also seems clear that this guy had some help.

92 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:18:37pm

re: #33 Cannadian Club Akbar

There sould be no GITMO, IMO.

There should be no terrorists either.re: #71 acwgusa

I agree with you, but I don't think we should be taking non-uniformed combatants as prisoners anyway. They're battlefield combatants, treat them as such.

David Lynch weighs in on the question:

- You mean?

- Yes.

- Then?

- That's correct.

(Fade to black)

93 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:19:03pm

re: #91 FrogMarch

Seat assignments are often done on-line by use of a seat selection chart. I have no idea if it was lucky terrorist dumb luck - or part of a plan. It seems like more than just a coincidence. It also seems clear that this guy had some help.

Actually, I just looked at a seating chart for the Airbus 330, and it turns out there are lots of seats over the wings, so this might have just been luck. Good point about online selections, though.

94 Filala  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:19:04pm

re: #81 Cannadian Club Akbar
Good idea, do to them what they want to do to us.

95 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:19:15pm

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

I am really surprised at the amount of "wishing" that is going on down this thread, wishing that this guy was dead or hurting and other such language.

I said red neck whoopin'.

96 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:19:21pm

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

I am really surprised at the amount of "wishing" that is going on down this thread, wishing that this guy was dead or hurting and other such language.

kinda morbid...I 've had third degree burns and I really don't think I'd wish that on anybody, even this guy

97 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:20:34pm

re: #92 ryannon

Are you a writer? I must ask.

98 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:20:48pm

re: #95 Cannadian Club Akbar

I said red neck whoopin'.

What ever. Day after Christmas and we're all back in form. Carry on... it's just me... never mind.

99 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:21:06pm

re: #2 Obdicut

I'm so glad tragedy was averted.

The poor father, too. How can you deal with your son becoming a terrorist?

The poor father? The guy tries to murder a aircraft full of people and you're worried about how his father copes?

That is taking the whole "bleeding heart" thing a step too far.

100 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:21:08pm

re: #93 SixDegrees

Actually, I just looked at a seating chart for the Airbus 330, and it turns out there are lots of seats over the wings, so this might have just been luck. Good point about online selections, though.

Also -
Is 19A specifically located on the wing above a fuel tank - or are all seats on the wing above a fuel tank? I don't know.

101 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:22:29pm

re: #97 Cannadian Club Akbar

Are you a writer? I must ask.

Where did you see any writing? I had the new family watch "Eraserhead" last night, they never saw it, I've seen it multiple time, even knew the star (he's dead now), but anyway, the theatre/film step critter says... "that wasn't a film, that was an experiment."

102 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:22:45pm

re: #88 albusteve

I don't know...how?

Well, you implied ACLU = "get out of jail free".


In reality the ACLU means "follow the Bill of Rights"

103 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:22:47pm

re: #86 marjoriemoon

One change was made...they took away my toothpaste last night in Seattle and it took a good 15 minutes to get through security, and there was only a single family with a toddler and an infant in front of us. No fluid over 3 oz...the woman had to argue to keep her bottled breast milk.

They also took my wife's makeup remover, and wanted to take her brand new Trish McEvoy make-up--the guy said, "This is a large container for such a small amount" (gotta love that fancy packaging cosmetics companies use). Fortunately, she was patient enough with him to explain that she had no control over how things were packaged and that it was just an ounce of cream in the container, even though the container, if hollow, could hold much more. Sheesh. I understand (and appreciate) what the TSA is trying to do, but when you deal with some of these people, you almost wish you could get a job screening them on their way to work just for the sake of a little payback.

104 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:23:08pm

re: #89 SixDegrees

Darthstar correctly points out that you can select your seat online - a practice that, perhaps, needs some modification. I always ask for an aisle seat, but don't care where on the plane I wind up, and even if I don't get the aisle it's not a showstopper. Seems like allowing column choices but not rows might be prudent.

I do a lot of travel for my bosses. I can read an airline ticket and tell you what all those funny codes mean! So yea, I pick their seats all the time.

If all these reports are true, the case against this guy before he got on the plane is rather lengthy.

105 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:23:12pm

re: #100 FrogMarch

Also -
Is 19A specifically located on the wing above a fuel tank - or are all seats on the wing above a fuel tank? I don't know.

if he had the ability to bust a hole in the fusilage, I don't really see what it matters

106 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:24:11pm

re: #102 Linden Arden

Well, you implied ACLU = "get out of jail free".

In reality the ACLU means "follow the Bill of Rights"

I did not imply anything...I don't get you, could you be more clear?

107 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:24:38pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

People don't metion David Lynch by accident. That's all.

108 RadicalModerate  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:25:00pm

FTA:

Authorities say they do not yet know if the imam was the same one who was in contact with Maj. Nidal Hasan prior to his alleged attack on soldiers at Fort Hood last month. American-born Anwar Awlaki has lived in Yemen since 2002 and is considered a major recruiter for al Qaeda by U.S. authorities. He survived a U.S.-backed air strike earlier this week.

From the looks of things, if Awlaki is behind this attack as well, stronger support for the Yemen government in their efforts against him may be warranted, as they seem to be (at least on the surface) a western-friendly nation in the region.

109 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:25:07pm

If this terrorist has actionable information on other terrorist plots or is able to to identify those behind this plot, he should be waterboarded )or whatever the Jack Bauer types need to do).

110 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:25:08pm

re: #93 SixDegrees

Actually, I just looked at a seating chart for the Airbus 330, and it turns out there are lots of seats over the wings, so this might have just been luck. Good point about online selections, though.

I usually pick exit row seats for my guys, which are over the wings, because they're roomier and since they're Platinum flyers they can pick those seats. You have to be a high tier flyer to pick those seats in the first place, or at least on U.S. airlines.

111 jaunte  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:25:43pm

re: #37 acwgusa

From now on, everybody flies NAKED!

Even then, some asshole will find a way to blow up.

112 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:26:08pm

re: #97 Cannadian Club Akbar

Are you a writer? I must ask.

Well, here's the skinny:

I live in an unheated Parisian garret with my only friend and companion, Poopzilla the Pigeon.

It's a hard life and full of incredible sacrifices, but I'm convinced he'll be published one day.

113 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:26:42pm

re: #111 jaunte

Even then, some asshole will find a way to blow up.

Burritos? Very, very, bad joke. Sorry.

114 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:26:53pm

re: #111 jaunte

Even then, some asshole will find a way to blow up.

And dontcha know that's exactly where it would be.

115 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:27:17pm
116 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:27:23pm

re: #74 darthstar

Curious about the -65 degrees figure you dropped there. The plane was about to land.

117 Øyvind Strømmen  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:27:35pm

re: #38 SixDegrees

The manner in which KSM was taken into custody, and it's location, and the people who carried it out, makes KSM's jurisdiction murky, at best. Here, we've got a guy caught in the act while in American airspace. Much more clearcut.

You obviously have a point. But the question is whether it should be like that.

Let's imagine a fictious scenario: The deposed dictator of Upper Assholia - Martin A.S Muhr-Derer, guilty of massive human rights violations and more than a handful of massacres, is discovered while visiting the Lefse Festival in Bertrami County, as a group of Upper Assholians in exile happen to recognise him. Should he be arrested? Should he be imprisoned? Should he have to stand before a court? If he is, than certainly would send a clear signal to the current president of Upper Assholia, colonel Carl Oup, who has a doubtful record of his own.

Now, imagine that colonel Carl Oup instead of having staged his successful military coup had chosen terrorism, blowing up trainloads of tourists to damage the tourist industry based around Mount Poo. He is then discovered while shopping at Wal-Mart somewhere in Arkansas. Should he be arrested? Imprisoned? Have to stand before a court?

While military courts could certainly do the job, I strongly believe civil courts are better suited; and that the publicity and thus the effect of such court cases would also be beneficial. It would also end the limbo status surrounding Gitmo (and similar facilities elsewhere); another benefit.

118 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:27:50pm

re: #112 ryannon

I feel ya.

119 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:28:12pm

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

I am really surprised at the amount of "wishing" that is going on down this thread, wishing that this guy was dead or hurting and other such language.


Walter, I appreciate your speaking up once more for the right thing. I find myself wanting to crack jokes about the incident because I find it overwhelmingly painful. Possibly others also feel overwhelmed and are releasing the pain to the best they know how. My point is not that I am disagreeing with you. Far far far from that. Rather, you have brought sanity and civility back into things. For that I thank you.

120 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:28:28pm

A fire that engulfs the cabin would be fatal for all aboard..
Just wait till the Oxygen masks drop down...Nothing needs to 'blow up'
a fire would be deadly

121 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:28:30pm

re: #110 marjoriemoon

I usually pick exit row seats for my guys, which are over the wings, because they're roomier and since they're Platinum flyers they can pick those seats. You have to be a high tier flyer to pick those seats in the first place, or at least on U.S. airlines.

You also have to be physically able to remove the door to get that seat. Not just anyone can get it.

122 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:28:50pm

re: #118 Cannadian Club Akbar

I feel ya.

I really appreciate that.

People just have no idea.

123 Cheechako  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:29:14pm

Here's an example of a full body X-ray:

Youtube Video

Now, how do we stop stink bombs?

124 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:29:37pm

re: #106 albusteve

I did not imply anything...I don't get you, could you be more clear?

you wrote - "yeah!, give em American civil liberties too!"

I'm fine with applying American standards to suspects in court.

The Bill of Rights is the best US "value system" we can show the world.

125 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:29:50pm

How many aircraft need to be destroyed with their passengers slaughtered before we drop the PC nonsense and start to take this war seriously?

126 mr.JA  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:29:53pm

Erm, PETN isn't "notoriously unstable explosive" in the sense that it can detonate any moment. You cannot detonate with a flame (it'll just burn), but you really need a good primary explosive to make it 'go'.
It is a very powerful explosive, and the molecule is indeed so 'unstable' that it stored a lot of energy...

127 jayzee  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:30:07pm

Maybe it's true about picking up his bomb in Yemen? Not only are those on this flight very fortunate, think about all the others that flew with this animal on other legs of his trip while he carried this stuff.

128 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:30:22pm

re: #116 Mich-again

Curious about the -65 degrees figure you dropped there. The plane was about to land.

Just flew home last night...outside temp when cruising was -70F. I didn't know what altitude they were at when he tried to blow himself(and the plane up), so I was just using a temp I see around this time of year when I fly. If they were lowere (10-20 thousand feet or so) the temp might only have been -10 or higher. My assumption was at cruising altitude.

129 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:30:47pm

re: #105 albusteve

if he had the ability to bust a hole in the fusilage, I don't really see what it matters

I'd rather have a hole in the fuselage than the fuel tank. You get that fuel on fire- and the whole plane is doomed.

130 CapeCoddah  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:30:52pm

re: #71 acwgusa

I agree with you, but I don't think we should be taking non-uniformed combatants as prisoners anyway. They're battlefield combatants, treat them as such.

Under the Geneva conventions, non-uniformed combatants can be immediately executed, not taken as POW's. That is what should have happened to them, rather than sending them to GITMO.

131 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:31:01pm

re: #123 Cheechako

Now, how do we stop stink bombs?

Put me on the no-fly list.
/

132 Altermite  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:31:09pm

re: #125 Bagua

How many aircraft need to be destroyed with their passengers slaughtered before we drop the PC nonsense and start to take this war seriously?

I'm sorry, where did political correctness enter the discussion? Before you brought it up, I mean?

133 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:32:16pm

Holy fuck. I've been on that flight.

134 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:32:43pm

re: #128 darthstar

I read a detail that the landing gear had just gone done prior to the attempted detonation.

135 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:33:32pm

re: #132 Altermite

I'm sorry, where did political correctness enter the discussion? Before you brought it up, I mean?

Er, the comment, I think, was a more general comment to the state of our security, or lack of it, and how we have a sort of "hands off" mentality about targeting the people that really need targeting.

I don't think he meant that there was a lot of PC on this thread.

Chill.

136 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:33:44pm

re: #124 Linden Arden

you wrote - "yeah!, give em American civil liberties too!"

I'm fine with applying American standards to suspects in court.

The Bill of Rights is the best US "value system" we can show the world.

Here's a quick reality check. Terrorists, and the rest of the world, don't give a crap about the U.S. value system. They only use it when can tear a strip off of us.

137 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:34:04pm

re: #122 ryannon

I really appreciate that.

People just have no idea.

Some do. Don't stop.

138 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:34:42pm

re: #124 Linden Arden

you wrote - "yeah!, give em American civil liberties too!"

I'm fine with applying American standards to suspects in court.

The Bill of Rights is the best US "value system" we can show the world.

I'm not sure what 'American standards' are but I think it's wrong to give KSM the same legal status as an American citizen, and try him in a civil court..I prefer the tribunals for that...I have no concern for our world image or closing Gitmo if that means anything to you...we export our value system everyday, but he Bill of Rights is for American citizens or visitors to this country

139 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:35:03pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

Where did you see any writing? I had the new family watch "Eraserhead" last night, they never saw it, I've seen it multiple time, even knew the star (he's dead now), but anyway, the theatre/film step critter says... "that wasn't a film, that was an experiment."

It was.

If I remember correctly, it was a film school project that metastasized into an actual film. Like the little squirting fowls on the dinner plate, you either like it or you don't. Personally, I find it totally inspired.

A perpetual state of grace in some forlorn circle of hell forgotten by both God and Lucifer.

140 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:35:12pm

re: #121 Mich-again

You also have to be physically able to remove the door to get that seat. Not just anyone can get it.

Yes, they do ask you that question.

141 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:35:21pm

re: #133 Alouette

When I first saw the flight number 253, it brought up bad memories of flight 255 out of DTW. The one that crash at takeoff into Middlebelt Road. Something about not having the flaps down on the wings to provide extra lift for takeoff. (?)

142 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:35:29pm

re: #134 Mich-again

I read a detail that the landing gear had just gone done prior to the attempted detonation.

Sounds like he was trying to make a show of it, then, by having the plane explode within eyesight of a major metropolitan area. That makes this incident a bit more disturbing, and lends a small amount of credibility to the Al Qaeda claim (they like getting attention for their acts).

143 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:35:48pm

Fox News keeping it classy....
Fox Nation places Obama race story above 1991 photo of beaten Rodney King, Jr.

144 FrogMarch  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:35:53pm

re: #129 FrogMarch

if he had the ability to bust a hole in the fusilage, I don't really see what it matters


I'd rather have a hole in the fuselage than the fuel tank. You get that fuel on fire- and the whole plane is doomed.



....but you probably meant a hole in the fuselage over the fuel tank....

145 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:36:47pm

I gotta go. See ya'll on the LNDT.

146 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:37:12pm

re: #132 Altermite

I'm sorry, where did political correctness enter the discussion? Before you brought it up, I mean?

I mean in general. Airport security randomly searching all the innocent nuns because it's wrong to profile. We need to start excluding certain groups from participation in activities such as air travel and restore security.

147 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:37:16pm

re: #142 darthstar

Sounds like he was trying to make a show of it, then, by having the plane explode within eyesight of a major metropolitan area.

Not just that, but the approach to DTW is over heavily populated neighborhoods. I'm a couple miles from that here.

148 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:37:18pm

re: #136 acwgusa

Here's a quick reality check. Terrorists, and the rest of the world, don't give a crap about the U.S. value system. They only use it when can tear a strip off of us.

Right - but we do.

What good is a value system you abrogate when convenient?

149 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:37:21pm

re: #121 Mich-again

You also have to be physically able to remove the door to get that seat. Not just anyone can get it.

Well actually, they don't ask you if you can remove the door. They ask if you are capable and willing to help out in an emergency.

150 Kewalo  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:37:42pm

re: #142 darthstar

Or maybe it took all that time for him to get his nerve up to try something.

151 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:37:47pm

re: #139 ryannon

It was.

If I remember correctly, it was a film school project that metastasized into an actual film. Like the little squirting fowls on the dinner plate, you either like it or you don't. Personally, I find it totally inspired.

A perpetual state of grace in some forlorn circle of hell forgotten by both God and Lucifer.

Oh, I know it was. I was just surprised by my step-critters reaction, very insightful. Like I said, Jack Nance (Henry) was a friend of mine, and I've had privy to a lot of "inside" stuff about this move for years.

152 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:37:59pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout

Fox News keeping it classy...
Fox Nation places Obama race story above 1991 photo of beaten Rodney King, Jr.

Subtle as always, Fox.

153 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:39:17pm

re: #143 Killgore Trout

Too many racist comments from Fox viewers to even bother reading....
Obama: I'm Doing the Best I Can for Blacks

Absolutely no difference between Fox comments and what you'd find at neoNazi sites like stormfront.

154 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:39:33pm

re: #149 marjoriemoon

They ask if you are capable and willing to help out in an emergency.

So they have watered down the question to eliminate the whole point of even asking it? The best intentions in the world won't lift that door.

155 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:39:41pm

re: #137 Cannadian Club Akbar

Some do. Don't stop.

Nothing can stop me.

Even now, past midnight, I'm getting ready to sell matchbooks on the deserted and rainy boulevards. One hundred matchbooks sold = a pound of mixed seeds, a ream of writing paper and a new bottle of ink for Poopzilla.

156 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:40:22pm

re: #148 Linden Arden

Right - but we do.

What good is a value system you abrogate when convenient?

A basis for survival against those who have no values. Being high minded is no good when you're dead.

157 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:40:37pm

re: #141 Mich-again

When I first saw the flight number 253, it brought up bad memories of flight 255 out of DTW. The one that crash at takeoff into Middlebelt Road. Something about not having the flaps down on the wings to provide extra lift for takeoff. (?)

"Baby Cecelia" must be married and a mom by now.

158 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:41:00pm

Conservatives love to say our Rights (Bill of Rights) are derived from God.

Why do they apply only to Americans then?

159 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:41:30pm

re: #112 ryannon

Well, here's the skinny:

I live in an unheated Parisian garret with my only friend and companion, Poopzilla the Pigeon.

It's a hard life and full of incredible sacrifices, but I'm convinced he'll be published one day.

What street. Rue ?

160 Gang of One  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:41:33pm

re: #61 albusteve

where were you last night, when I mentioned skivvies?

Prancing about my house ... in my skivvies.

161 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:42:16pm

re: #157 Alouette

"Baby Cecelia" must be married and a mom by now.

I did read somewhere she had a gig as a motivational speaker. What a miracle it was that she survived the crash.

162 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:42:18pm

re: #147 Mich-again

Not just that, but the approach to DTW is over heavily populated neighborhoods. I'm a couple miles from that here.

I live along a flight path, although the aircraft are still pretty high when they fly over my neighborhood.

On the approach to Metro over Dearborn, you can see the Ford Motor Co. buildings very clearly.

163 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:42:41pm

re: #154 Mich-again

So they have watered down the question to eliminate the whole point of even asking it? The best intentions in the world won't lift that door.

But so it is. And even more actually.... if you book online as a Platinum flyer, you don't have to answer any questions, just select the seat. The status gets you the seat anyway. If I call the airlines to book, they ask the capable and willing question.

I think the attendants are supposed to handle the door, but they don't want people in those seats flipping out, running off or getting in the way of an evacuation. If you sit there, they expect you to help others.

164 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:42:47pm

re: #160 Gang of One

Prancing about my house ... in my skivvies.

I have this picture of Snoopy

165 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:42:53pm

re: #158 Linden Arden

Conservatives love to say our Rights (Bill of Rights) are derived from God.

Why do they apply only to Americans then?

Because the Preamble refers to We the People of the United States, and ordains and establishes the Constitution for the United States of America?

166 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:45:16pm

re: #158 Linden Arden

Conservatives love to say our Rights (Bill of Rights) are derived from God.

Why do they apply only to Americans then?

because we are loath to impose on the rest of the world our Constitution?...just a guess

167 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:45:17pm

re: #159 Walter L. Newton

What street. Rue ?

Daguerre. A few doors down from rue Fermat.

Let me know anytime you're in town and we'll have drinks in Montparnasse.

[Link: www.closeriedeslilas.fr...]

168 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:46:53pm

re: #162 Alouette

On the approach to Metro over Dearborn, you can see the Ford Motor Co. buildings very clearly.

There is another approach over Northline Road in Taylor. I guess it depends on the wind.

169 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:47:38pm

re: #167 ryannon

Daguerre. A few doors down from rue Fermat.

Let me know anytime you're in town and we'll have drinks in Montparnasse.

[Link: www.closeriedeslilas.fr...]

I so want to visit Paris...

170 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:47:51pm

re: #165 acwgusa

Because the Preamble refers to We the People of the United States, and ordains and establishes the Constitution for the United States of America?

Gotcha!

so torture (Cruel and unusual punishment) or illegal search and seizure are fine principles that God deems fit for Americans only.

171 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:48:54pm

re: #167 ryannon

Daguerre. A few doors down from rue Fermat.

Let me know anytime you're in town and we'll have drinks in Montparnasse.

[Link: www.closeriedeslilas.fr...]

I should be there some time in 2010, if every thing works out. I'm due for a Paris vacation, I try to make it every 2 years, but money hasn't worked out, it will be 3 years Jan. 2010. So, the girlfriend and I are going to shoot real hard for 2010.

Yes, I know your neighborhood. I know Paris as well as I know Denver or NYC. You can save so much money and time when you know a city like a native.

My favorite place in Europe.

172 SixDegrees  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:49:10pm

re: #117 oslogin

You obviously have a point. But the question is whether it should be like that.

Let's imagine a fictious scenario: The deposed dictator of Upper Assholia - Martin A.S Muhr-Derer, guilty of massive human rights violations and more than a handful of massacres, is discovered while visiting the Lefse Festival in Bertrami County, as a group of Upper Assholians in exile happen to recognise him. Should he be arrested? Should he be imprisoned? Should he have to stand before a court? If he is, than certainly would send a clear signal to the current president of Upper Assholia, colonel Carl Oup, who has a doubtful record of his own.

Now, imagine that colonel Carl Oup instead of having staged his successful military coup had chosen terrorism, blowing up trainloads of tourists to damage the tourist industry based around Mount Poo. He is then discovered while shopping at Wal-Mart somewhere in Arkansas. Should he be arrested? Imprisoned? Have to stand before a court?

While military courts could certainly do the job, I strongly believe civil courts are better suited; and that the publicity and thus the effect of such court cases would also be beneficial. It would also end the limbo status surrounding Gitmo (and similar facilities elsewhere); another benefit.

Imagination is a wonderful thing, but it's the real world we have to deal with, and all of these jurisdictional issues form themselves into an incredibly tangled knot in such cases exactly because there are already well-established, if conflicting, procedures, rights an scopes of authority in place.

Even as we speak, the Gitmo detainees years-long detention has yet to culminate in trial or even charges being brought in most cases, and it isn't for lack of trying. Sometimes, the Rule of Law's a bitch.

173 Linden Arden  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:49:25pm

"the prore: #170 Linden Arden

Gotcha!

so torture (Cruel and unusual punishment) or illegal search and seizure are fine principles that God deems fit for Americans only.

the prohibition of

174 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:49:32pm

re: #169 HoosierHoops

I so want to visit Paris...

I so want to be outta here.

Maybe we can work out a deal?


/wishful thinking

175 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:49:39pm

The nekkid airline thing isn't so far fetched. The nudists already are doing it.

DON'T click on that if nekkid middle-age people offend you or will get your boss cranky.

176 acwgusa  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:49:56pm

re: #170 Linden Arden

Gotcha!

so torture (Cruel and unusual punishment) or illegal search and seizure are fine principles that God deems fit for Americans only.

Shockingly, God saw fit to let other nations with their own sovereignty set their own rules.

177 Gus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:50:24pm

Flight 253 public flight track indicates it's last position as:

11:45AM 42.08 -83.30 206° Southwest 200 230 0.34 8,300 -1,200 descend Toronto Cen

So it was at 8300 feet going 200 knots. A330 checklist shows approach procedure establishing 165 KIA then landing gear down so it would have been lower than 8300 feet at the time.

178 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:50:56pm

Fox news viewers love the Confederacy.....

Matthews: GOP Is the 'Confederacy' Party

RSM must be proud.

179 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:51:44pm

re: #170 Linden Arden

Gotcha!

so torture (Cruel and unusual punishment) or illegal search and seizure are fine principles that God deems fit for Americans only.

gotcha?...look, whatever your problem is with these short cryptic questions is your business...as for KSM, the tribunals and Gitmo you would have to question BO and Holder why they are doing what they are...I presume Bush the war criminal is your next ploy with the 'gotcha' game

180 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:52:15pm

Last week when we bombed Al Qaeda targets in Yemen, one of the reasons given was to stop an imminent attack..

One of the targeted sites was a suspected al Qaeda training camp north of the capitol, Sanaa, and the second target was a location where officials said “an imminent attack against a U.S. asset was being planned.”

Now there have been connections made between the flight 253 bomber and Yemenese terrorists. I wonder if this was the imminent attack they mentioned.

181 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:53:39pm

re: #176 acwgusa

Shockingly, God saw fit to let other nations with their own sovereignty set their own rules.

yeah, but we're special, we invented football!

182 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:54:07pm

re: #174 ryannon

I so want to be outta here.

Maybe we can work out a deal?

/wishful thinking

Ok, you're being cryptic. Are you there because you have to be, work related, school, you're French citizen who wants to be anywhere but Paris or France, can you clarify...

I'll trade in a split minute. We have plenty of room here at 8200 feet in the Rocky Mountains, about 45 miles west of Denver Colorado.

I've had Lizards passing through before. Cato the Elder was here last week for 2 nights on his way to California for a seminar.

You're invited any time.

183 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:54:11pm

re: #171 Walter L. Newton

I should be there some time in 2010, if every thing works out. I'm due for a Paris vacation, I try to make it every 2 years, but money hasn't worked out, it will be 3 years Jan. 2010. So, the girlfriend and I are going to shoot real hard for 2010.

Yes, I know your neighborhood. I know Paris as well as I know Denver or NYC. You can save so much money and time when you know a city like a native.

My favorite place in Europe.


Quite seriously, I'd be delighted to meet for drinks.

In the meantime, I wish you the best of luck with your new job. A new role in the ongoing human comedy to master....

184 nightlight  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:55:23pm

Regarding the tribunals and Gitmo... there is nothing unconstitutional about the tribunals, and from what I recall reading, there was even an American citizen who was tried that way.

185 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:55:55pm

I was on a Lufthansa flight from Detroit to Frankfurt a year ago, and there was this extended Yemenite family on board who were booked through to Sanaa. The plane was delayed in takeoff because they kept passing their kids back and forth across the seats.

I don't think they were terrorists, but I think that they had more kids than tickets.

186 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:56:09pm

re: #170 Linden Arden

Gotcha!

so torture (Cruel and unusual punishment) or illegal search and seizure are fine principles that God deems fit for Americans only.

To get that out of what other people have said is a huge stretch.

If you believe that the US Constitution and our Bill of Rights applies to foreign nationals, please make your case. Your "gotcha" game is lame.

187 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:56:49pm

re: #175 marjoriemoon

The nekkid airline thing isn't so far fetched. The nudists already are doing it.

DON'T click on that if nekkid middle-age people offend you or will get your boss cranky.

Gee... besides supplying those paper sheet that go over the head rests, they would have to supply some paper sheets that would sit, well, on you seat... wouldn't want to be dripping bodily fluids all over the upholstery.

188 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:57:14pm

re: #103 darthstar

One change was made...they took away my toothpaste last night in Seattle and it took a good 15 minutes to get through security, and there was only a single family with a toddler and an infant in front of us. No fluid over 3 oz...the woman had to argue to keep her bottled breast milk.

They also took my wife's makeup remover, and wanted to take her brand new Trish McEvoy make-up--the guy said, "This is a large container for such a small amount" (gotta love that fancy packaging cosmetics companies use). Fortunately, she was patient enough with him to explain that she had no control over how things were packaged and that it was just an ounce of cream in the container, even though the container, if hollow, could hold much more. Sheesh. I understand (and appreciate) what the TSA is trying to do, but when you deal with some of these people, you almost wish you could get a job screening them on their way to work just for the sake of a little payback.

I'm sorry, young mother? bottled breast milk? how ridiculous is that.

These guys are hiding their stuff. They aren't carrying it onboard in full view anyway. I'm totally ok with them checking it out, just like the pre-packaged cream, but spending any real time about it seems silly.

Now if she had it sown into her panties, I'd have taken her down.

(p.s. tell your beloved to buy other cream... too much packaging is bad for the environment :>)

189 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:57:59pm

re: #187 Walter L. Newton

Gee... besides supplying those paper sheet that go over the head rests, they would have to supply some paper sheets that would sit, well, on you seat... wouldn't want to be dripping bodily fluids all over the upholstery.

good GRIEF Walter...get outa here

190 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 3:59:53pm

re: #174 ryannon

I so want to be outta here.

Maybe we can work out a deal?

/wishful thinking

I'll be in Singapore in April...somehow I have to visit Paris.. I spent sometime in Montreal a few years back..It's like a mini Paris...I had the time of my life..
First thing everybody kisses everybody... Ok kissing the guys on the cheek is a little weird but kissing 20 girls before your first cup of coffee is highly motivating in the office.
Second thing: One of the girls in the office asked me straight up..' So what do you think of our girl?' Girls? What do you mean? Girls..*gulp*
We have the most beautiful women in the world in Montreal..Have you not noticed?
*gulp* Yea..You bet...clears throat...
/I wonder how many times you get to kiss a girl per day in Montreal...
We American's should take up kissing....Wait till I get to Paris.
*wink*

191 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:00:08pm
Dutch airline KLM says the connection in Amsterdam from Lagos, Nigeria, to Detroit involves a change in carrier and a change in aircraft.

source Jerusalem Post

192 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:00:49pm

re: #183 ryannon

Quite seriously, I'd be delighted to meet for drinks.

In the meantime, I wish you the best of luck with your new job. A new role in the ongoing human comedy to master...

Yes, thanks for bringing that up. I'm looking forward to it, really. Hell, in this tight economy, I'm happy to double my salary. And actually it's also got an altruistic side to it, since it's a retail non-profit thrift store, nationwide charity, so my employment will also be helping out in other ways besides my personal needs.

I will take you up on a meeting next time I get there, if you are around. I have a number of friends that reside in Paris or the suburbs.

193 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:01:26pm

re: #182 Walter L. Newton

Ok, you're being cryptic. Are you there because you have to be, work related, school, you're French citizen who wants to be anywhere but Paris or France, can you clarify...

I'll trade in a split minute. We have plenty of room here at 8200 feet in the Rocky Mountains, about 45 miles west of Denver Colorado.

I've had Lizards passing through before. Cato the Elder was here last week for 2 nights on his way to California for a seminar.

You're invited any time.


Not cryptic, and there's no mystery. I'm an American expat who's had too much of a good thing. Decades and decades of the Savoy Truffle.

Youtube Video

In the end, you practically stop noticing. In the end, the charm totally wears off. Welcome to reality. Would it be better for me anywhere else? My feeling is that I'd already be there if it was.

194 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:01:30pm

re: #189 albusteve

good GRIEF Walter...get outa here

Picture that... interesting image... huh?

195 RadicalModerate  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:02:20pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Too many racist comments from Fox viewers to even bother reading...
Obama: I'm Doing the Best I Can for Blacks

Absolutely no difference between Fox comments and what you'd find at neoNazi sites like stormfront.


Wow.

Reading the comments there, I saw what appeared to be an open recruitment link for a white supremacist site. Remember, this isn't the website of a fringe political group, but the location of one of the major media organizations in the US. I was thinking that there was hope for rational conservatism in this country, but seeing the absolute hatred there, I'm really having my doubts.

196 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:03:44pm

re: #193 ryannon

Not cryptic, and there's no mystery. I'm an American expat who's had too much of a good thing. Decades and decades of the Savoy Truffle.


[Video]

In the end, you practically stop noticing. In the end, the charm totally wears off. Welcome to reality. Would it be better for me anywhere else? My feeling is that I'd already be there if it was.

That explain it... ok. No, I know the underside of Paris, the day to day side... I know the charmless side of Paris... like I said above, I have a number of life long friends there, expats like you.

No, I know the difference... but I still love the place, as you really do, in your own way... I suspect.

197 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:04:33pm

re: #190 HoosierHoops

I'll be in Singapore in April...somehow I have to visit Paris.. I spent sometime in Montreal a few years back..It's like a mini Paris...I had the time of my life..
First thing everybody kisses everybody... Ok kissing the guys on the cheek is a little weird but kissing 20 girls before your first cup of coffee is highly motivating in the office.
Second thing: One of the girls in the office asked me straight up..' So what do you think of our girl?' Girls? What do you mean? Girls..*gulp*
We have the most beautiful women in the world in Montreal..Have you not noticed?
*gulp* Yea..You bet...clears throat...
/I wonder how many times you get to kiss a girl per day in Montreal...
We American's should take up kissing...Wait till I get to Paris.
*wink*

I'd be happy to hoist a few with ya' if you do get here. No problema.

198 freetoken  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:05:03pm

re: #195 RadicalModerate

Yes, it is the right wing in all their glory, given a free platform by Fox.

199 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:05:13pm

re: #188 marjoriemoon

I'm sorry, young mother? bottled breast milk? how ridiculous is that.

These guys are hiding their stuff. They aren't carrying it onboard in full view anyway. I'm totally ok with them checking it out, just like the pre-packaged cream, but spending any real time about it seems silly.

Now if she had it sown into her panties, I'd have taken her down.

(p.s. tell your beloved to buy other cream... too much packaging is bad for the environment :>)

I can't help but wonder - what we have are rules about containers and amounts and etc etc etc, BECAUSE our security folks are not allowed to copy the very successful PROFILING model used in Israel.

I wonder if our security folks were allowed to "profile", then young mothers with bottles of breast milk would get an almost automatic pass, no problems at all.

I guess my point is this - we do what Israel does, or not. And if not, then what we are stuck with is what we have, with an obsession about containers and bottles and liquids and creams and how much is allowed on . . .

200 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:05:42pm

re: #125 Bagua

How many aircraft need to be destroyed with their passengers slaughtered before we drop the PC nonsense and start to take this war seriously?


Obviously at least one.

I think your point is worth repeating. The changes emanating from this attempting destruction will not match the severity of the situation. Please, someone disagree with me on this one. Please, convince me that human nature is more noble.

201 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:06:32pm

re: #187 Walter L. Newton

Gee... besides supplying those paper sheet that go over the head rests, they would have to supply some paper sheets that would sit, well, on you seat... wouldn't want to be dripping bodily fluids all over the upholstery.

No trouble! Think of all the money you'll save on screening equipment!

I used to go the nude beaches here and even though that link doesn't show much of anything, those are the kinds of folks that went. All us middle-aged hippie or ex-hippie types who aren't particularly hung up about it. Besides, no matter what you think you look like, there's always someone fatter, skinnier, more moles or more scars than you.

But I don't go anymore. I would consider nude travel though.

202 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:07:57pm

nice guys finish last...comprende?

203 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:09:09pm

BB later... I have to go watch "Reefer Madness - The Musical" with the step-critters and a neighbor kid... I made a promise, I made them watch David Lynch's "Eraserhead" last night, this is my "punishment."

We may watch the Charles Laughton "Hunchback of Notre Dame" after that.

204 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:09:33pm

re: #5 FrogMarch

Underwear bomb.
How do we fight the underwear bomb?

Nudist flights.

205 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:09:50pm

re: #200 Stuart Leviton

Obviously at least one.
[...]

At least five already "successful" IIRC, counting Lockerbie and 9-11. Several other serious attempts, including this one, the "shoebomb", the thwarted plot out of the UK and then the one from the PI.

206 nightlight  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:10:19pm

re: #198 freetoken

Yes, it is the right wing in all their glory, given a free platform by Fox.

There are crazies on both sides.

I can't help but think of Michael Moore being seated next to Jimmie Carter at the DNC.

Was this the left wing in all their glory ?

"Read them, Dems; read those quotes, and then tell me how and why you can vote for a party that so obviously embraces such Anti-American hatred. The Democratic Party isn't merely holding Moore at arm's length and employing him as a useful tool in an ideological extremist proxy war, they are embracing him with mainstream endorsements of a work that contains ridiculously damaging lies that affect America's national security. Not distortions, not "different" points-of-view ... lies. Vicious, destructive lies..."

[Link: www.indcjournal.com...]

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:10:57pm

re: #16 Mich-again

Indeed. WTF is going on? First, Fort Hood, now this. What does a terrorist have to do these days for someone in authority to take the threat serious?

"Hi. My kid has become a radical nutjob, and is dangerous. DO SOMETHING!"

208 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:11:16pm

re: #199 reine.de.tout

I can't help but wonder - what we have are rules about containers and amounts and etc etc etc, BECAUSE our security folks are not allowed to copy the very successful PROFILING model used in Israel.

I wonder if our security folks were allowed to "profile", then young mothers with bottles of breast milk would get an almost automatic pass, no problems at all.

I guess my point is this - we do what Israel does, or not. And if not, then what we are stuck with is what we have, with an obsession about containers and bottles and liquids and creams and how much is allowed on . . .

We talked about that in the other threads too. Profiling in Israel is a lot about asking questions, interview and seeing if what you say matches up to what you're doing. For instance, what reason would this guy have picked coming to the states on a 1 way tix. He didn't have any immigration papers. High sign right there that should have stopped him in his tracks.

That kind of profiling I'm all for. Spend 5 minutes or so with a few important questions, that includes passengers flying THROUGH a country. If that could be done as efficiently as Israel does, it would be worth it.

Remember too, Israel is smaller and has less traffic than a place like the U.S. Also they spend a ton of money on security.

I agree with you completely.

209 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:12:56pm

re: #201 marjoriemoon

No trouble! Think of all the money you'll save on screening equipment!

I used to go the nude beaches here and even though that link doesn't show much of anything, those are the kinds of folks that went. All us middle-aged hippie or ex-hippie types who aren't particularly hung up about it. Besides, no matter what you think you look like, there's always someone fatter, skinnier, more moles or more scars than you.

But I don't go anymore. I would consider nude travel though.

Naked we enter this 747, and naked we leave it.

It gives air travel a new a grandiose dimension.

You might be on to something here.

Have you thought of contacting Virgin Airways?

Branson is always on the lookout for ideas like yours!

210 Gus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:13:16pm

Suspect's flat location in London on Mansfield Street.

211 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:13:32pm

re: #195 RadicalModerate

Wow.

Reading the comments there, I saw what appeared to be an open recruitment link for a white supremacist site. Remember, this isn't the website of a fringe political group, but the location of one of the major media organizations in the US. I was thinking that there was hope for rational conservatism in this country, but seeing the absolute hatred there, I'm really having my doubts.

In Fox's defense, they don't advocate white supremacists nor do they advocate people who talk openly about assassinating the president...they just want to stay close to these people so they can be there first to get the scoop if something does happen...then Fox & Friends can act all surprised and innocent and shocked, SHOCKED! that someone would try something so heinous.

212 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:14:31pm

re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist

Nudist flights.

You know where Goat's Rock is up north of you?
I got caught naked on the beach with a girl at like 3am by the Sheriff dept..
I was so embarrassed that night..The screening process isn't as easy as they leave you to believe...

213 prairiefire  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:16:04pm

re: #203 Walter L. Newton

BB later... I have to go watch "Reefer Madness - The Musical" with the step-critters and a neighbor kid... I made a promise, I made them watch David Lynch's "Eraserhead" last night, this is my "punishment."

We may watch the Charles Laughton "Hunchback of Notre Dame" after that.

Oh, that's a good one. Have fun Walter!

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:16:27pm

re: #32 Existential_Donuts

The passengers and crew were certainly brave to jump in, they truly believed they were fighting for their lives. But, if I'm reading it correctly, the reason the tragedy was averted is because the device failed.
Serious dialogue sometimes gets lost in the hero worship that the media pours on following things like this.

Life is not a tv show, dammit.

True, too damn true. However, passengers and crew still did the right thing, given what they knew, and what the situation was.

Good for them.

Now, back to serious dialogue.

215 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:17:36pm

re: #209 ryannon

Naked we enter this 747, and naked we leave it.

It gives air travel a new a grandiose dimension.

You might be on to something here.

Have you thought of contacting Virgin Airways?

Branson is always on the lookout for ideas like yours!

I could be rich :)

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:19:23pm

re: #54 marjoriemoon

True. The airlines can't rely on passengers to do the job they're supposed to do. It's far too dangerous.

Darthstar (I think) asked on the other thread about this guy coming out of Nigeria. Was he screened then and therefore not screened again in the Netherlands? Or passed through because he passed a previous screening? Are we (as in "Western world") relying on countries like Nigeria to do our screening?

Back in the 90s, if you went from Ireland to Britain, they not only scanned you again, they gave you all your luggage back and you had to trundle with it across Heathrow, going through detector after detector. Also, Irish pocket change set off the detector.

I REALLY hope the Netherlands are not relying on Nigeria to do scanning. And if they have been, I hope that stops NOW.

217 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:20:01pm

re: #207 SanFranciscoZionist

"Hi. My kid has become a radical nutjob, and is dangerous. DO SOMETHING!"

Please hold sir. [ Hey, who wants to take a call from a nutjob on line 2?]

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:21:46pm

re: #99 Bagua

The poor father? The guy tries to murder a aircraft full of people and you're worried about how his father copes?

That is taking the whole "bleeding heart" thing a step too far.

Sounds like his father tried to help prevent this. If so, I feel for him. He's not the bad guy here.

219 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:21:57pm

re: #207 SanFranciscoZionist

"Hi. My kid has become a radical nutjob, and is dangerous. DO SOMETHING!"

I'm sorry, all operators are busy dealing with people calling from the drive-thru because they specifically said "NO PICKLES" on their hamburger order.

220 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:22:47pm

re: #195 RadicalModerate

Wow.

Reading the comments there, I saw what appeared to be an open recruitment link for a white supremacist site. Remember, this isn't the website of a fringe political group, but the location of one of the major media organizations in the US. I was thinking that there was hope for rational conservatism in this country, but seeing the absolute hatred there, I'm really having my doubts.

I never paid much attention to comments on Fox before but it's fascinating to click around. To them everything is racial. Articles on Christmas lights, ACORN or the budget all attract racial comments. It's really pretty disturbing.

221 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:23:08pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

Back in the 90s, if you went from Ireland to Britain, they not only scanned you again, they gave you all your luggage back and you had to trundle with it across Heathrow, going through detector after detector. Also, Irish pocket change set off the detector.

I REALLY hope the Netherlands are not relying on Nigeria to do scanning. And if they have been, I hope that stops NOW.

For sure. I don't know. Something is strange in this story. I'm having a hard time believing they just missed him. Maybe I'm not being fair about it.

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:23:52pm

re: #136 acwgusa

Here's a quick reality check. Terrorists, and the rest of the world, don't give a crap about the U.S. value system. They only use it when can tear a strip off of us.

Do we have values only if they impress our enemies?

223 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:23:52pm

Fight Naked

224 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:24:05pm

re: #207 SanFranciscoZionist

"Hi. My kid has become a radical nutjob, and is dangerous. DO SOMETHING!"

This guy's father apparently did do just that (or something similar).

re: #63 reine.de.tout

Here's an interesting tidbit:

Father of suspect in foiled attack had relayed concerns to U.S. Embassy

Full story at the link.

225 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:24:39pm

Just in case anyone was still in doubt that the right wing fixation with ACORN is racially motivated......
Conyers Report: ACORN Didn't Break Law But Filmmakers May Have

...read the comments.

226 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:24:39pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

I never paid much attention to comments on Fox before but it's fascinating to click around. To them everything is racial. Articles on Christmas lights, ACORN or the budget all attract racial comments. It's really pretty disturbing.

Ooo what they say about Christmas tree lights?

227 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:25:37pm

re: #224 reine.de.tout
...and of course the embassy did nothing.

228 John Neverbend  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:26:21pm

re: #5 FrogMarch

Underwear bomb.
How do we fight the underwear bomb?

"Underwear will be worn on the outside, so we can check." - From Woody Allen's "Bananas".

229 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:27:45pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

Just in case anyone was still in doubt that the right wing fixation with ACORN is racially motivated...
Conyers Report: ACORN Didn't Break Law But Filmmakers May Have

...read the comments.

CRS works for congress, it is congress by extention...I don't trust them

230 A Man for all Seasons  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:28:17pm

re: #223 Capitalist Tool

Fight Naked

Compete Naked!
/The original Olympics were done with all the Athletes Naked...I think they were on the something.. The Ratings would be through the roof for NBC.
It's old school.... lizards
/

231 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:29:01pm

re: #227 Capitalist Tool

...and of course the embassy did nothing.

gotta avoid that profiling . . .

232 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:29:26pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

Back in the 90s, if you went from Ireland to Britain, they not only scanned you again, they gave you all your luggage back and you had to trundle with it across Heathrow, going through detector after detector. Also, Irish pocket change set off the detector.

I REALLY hope the Netherlands are not relying on Nigeria to do scanning. And if they have been, I hope that stops NOW.

It occurred to me, this Dutch fellow, the one who jumped the seats, he burned his hands yes? It's extremely painful. I'm scarred from a burn as a child. I pulled the iron on top of me. But think about it, when you touch the tip of your finger to the hot stove, how much that little bitty piece of skin hurts. Imagine your hands like that.

Brave, BRAVE man that fellow.

233 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:29:54pm

re: #223 Capitalist Tool

Fight Naked

Make Love, Not War - Naked!

234 Timmeh  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:30:16pm
Both were sewn into the student's underwear so they would be near his testicles and unlikely to be detected, he told agents.

Does this mean that security will have to cop a feel of everyone's junk now before they get on a plane?

235 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:31:07pm

re: #230 HoosierHoops

The Ratings would be through the roof for NBC.

For womens' Beach Volleyball, yes. For mens' wrestling, not so much.

236 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:31:15pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

Just in case anyone was still in doubt that the right wing fixation with ACORN is racially motivated...
Conyers Report: ACORN Didn't Break Law But Filmmakers May Have

...read the comments.

Oh, that's super-classy commenting over there.

237 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:31:53pm

re: #234 Timmeh

Does this mean that security will have to cop a feel of everyone's junk now before they get on a plane?

Xrays can take care of that.

238 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:32:06pm

re: #234 Timmeh

Does this mean that security will have to cop a feel of everyone's junk now before they get on a plane?


Don't touch my butt, Felix.

239 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:33:01pm

re: #226 marjoriemoon

The energy savings will go to pay for slave reparations. Interesting that most of the comments were against saving energy. I was wondering about the "windmill syndrome" (air turbines make residents feel sick/disoriented). I suspect the right has succumbed to a lot of oil company propaganda. They are doing a pretty effective job. Last year there was a campaign for conservatives to turn on all their light and waste energy on Earth day. Ridiculous.

240 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:33:13pm

re: #231 reine.de.tout

gotta avoid that profiling . . .

After having my toothpaste taken by TSA last night and watching the woman in front of me have to defend having more than three ounces of breast milk in a plastic bottle for her baby, I actually thought for the briefest moment that profiling might not be so bad after all...of course, I quickly cursed myself for harboring such thoughts just because I was briefly inconvenienced. But I figured I should be honest and admit that the thought did cross my mind.

241 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:34:10pm

re: #225 Killgore Trout

Just in case anyone was still in doubt that the right wing fixation with ACORN is racially motivated...
Conyers Report: ACORN Didn't Break Law But Filmmakers May Have

...read the comments.

This kind of stuff is everywhere on right wing sites that allow comments.

Check this one out:

Will Go On

These a holes are asking for a race war.
They will lose and set back this country to the same status as Africa.
More blacks are kil led by blacks then whites ever could.
How stupid can they be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????

Saturday, December 26, 2009 at 05:10 PM

242 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:35:29pm

re: #241 Charles

There's tons of stuff like that on almost every article. Click around on the fox website. It's quite amazing.

243 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:35:36pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

The energy savings will go to pay for slave reparations. Interesting that most of the comments were against saving energy. I was wondering about the "windmill syndrome" (air turbines make residents feel sick/disoriented). I suspect the right has succumbed to a lot of oil company propaganda. They are doing a pretty effective job. Last year there was a campaign for conservatives to turn on all their light and waste energy on Earth day. Ridiculous.

and alot of posters here where good with idea...but there again, I didn't take it too seriously

244 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:35:49pm

re: #240 darthstar

After having my toothpaste taken by TSA last night and watching the woman in front of me have to defend having more than three ounces of breast milk in a plastic bottle for her baby, I actually thought for the briefest moment that profiling might not be so bad after all...of course, I quickly cursed myself for harboring such thoughts just because I was briefly inconvenienced. But I figured I should be honest and admit that the thought did cross my mind.

The problem with profiling as a cure-all, is that all an attacker needs to do then is find someone outside the profile to carry out an operation. They can find those.

245 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:36:07pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

The energy savings will go to pay for slave reparations.

Non-starter there. A really stupid idea.

246 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:36:39pm

re: #218 SanFranciscoZionist

Sounds like his father tried to help prevent this. If so, I feel for him. He's not the bad guy here.

The point is the misplaced sympathies, do you recall anyone agonising over the parents of the 9-11 terrorists who flew airplanes in to the Towers? The poor dears, how upsetting to discover your son is a mass murderer.

247 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:37:01pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

The energy savings will go to pay for slave reparations. Interesting that most of the comments were against saving energy. I was wondering about the "windmill syndrome" (air turbines make residents feel sick/disoriented). I suspect the right has succumbed to a lot of oil company propaganda. They are doing a pretty effective job. Last year there was a campaign for conservatives to turn on all their light and waste energy on Earth day. Ridiculous.

Right, I heard about the last bit and I agree about the oil propaganda. Particularly drilling in the U.S. which won't yield enough oil past a generation or so.

But I'm still confused on the other. We should have Xmas lights or not have Xmas lights? Ack, do you have a link handy? hehe

248 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:37:19pm

re: #246 Bagua

how upsetting to discover your son is a mass murderer.

Mohammad Atta's dad was a proud papa.

249 ryannon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:37:53pm

re: #247 marjoriemoon

Right, I heard about the last bit and I agree about the oil propaganda. Particularly drilling in the U.S. which won't yield enough oil past a generation or so.

But I'm still confused on the other. We should have Xmas lights or not have Xmas lights? Ack, do you have a link handy? hehe

In bed.

250 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:38:04pm

re: #246 Bagua

The point is the misplaced sympathies, do you recall anyone agonising over the parents of the 9-11 terrorists who flew airplanes in to the Towers? The poor dears, how upsetting to discover your son is a mass murderer.

Did any of them try to turn their kids in? This man did. I really don't see sparing a thought for him as 'misplaced'.

251 Greengolem64  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:38:24pm

re: #111 jaunte

Even then, some asshole will find a way to blow up.

Uh...yeah...you nailed that one in the bunghole. There have already been (several months back) reports of explosives being 'implanted' in 'those' places...

GG

252 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:38:37pm

re: #246 Bagua

The point is the misplaced sympathies, do you recall anyone agonising over the parents of the 9-11 terrorists who flew airplanes in to the Towers? The poor dears, how upsetting to discover your son is a mass murderer.

I thought the remark, in passing, was fairly innocent considering the context...it's a legit thought to cross your mind

253 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:38:50pm

re: #241 Charles

Lots of racewar stuff...

boone


acorn broke the law and the kids did not...do these dumbasses want a race war....how stupid..nobody will win in a race war..but the blacks will never recover..
Thursday, December 24, 2009 at 10:26 AM

254 Mich-again  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:39:46pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

I suspect the right has succumbed to a lot of oil company propaganda.

NIMBY has no political loyalty and its not just conservatives who oppose windmills in their backyard. Not by a long shot. Nice try though.

255 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:40:17pm

re: #234 Timmeh

Does this mean that security will have to cop a feel of everyone's junk now before they get on a plane?

Okay, true story from this week, and slightly embarrassing. On our way through SFO to Seattle on Monday, I was called aside for frisking. I hopped onto the pad with both feet and held my arms out for the gal, who said "You look happy."

I said, "Frisk me!"

She said, "Sorry, he's got to do it." and motioned for a man to come frisk me. He was very thorough, finding a small USB storage device in my pocket (which he pulled the cap off before "looking inside it"--at my data, I assume) and then found the four Rolaids in my next pocket--as I said, he was being thorough, and he frisked my legs down to the ankle--firmly. But when we got to Seattle, we were picked up by my wife's cousin and made a stop at Toys-r-Us to pick up a microphone for her son's Wii game. As we entered the store, she said to my wife, "What's that coming out of his leg?"--I had just done laundry before dressing for the flight, and a pair of my underwear was in the leg of my jeans...I missed it, TSA missed it, and it wasn't until it was hanging out of my ankle in the store that it was discovered (by more than a few people...to much chuckling). That's what happens when you get up at 5am to race off to the airport.

Note: there were no explosives in the underwear, and they were clean.

256 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:40:34pm

re: #169 HoosierHoops

I so want to visit Paris...


Sorry Hoosier, looks like no Parisian invite for you. Nice try. But if you want to visit Baltimore. Er, uh, I live in a monastery and if the monks approve.

257 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:40:58pm

Happy Day after Santa, Lizards!

Since I wasn't on a flight to Detroit that was lucky, or a number of other situations this week, I can't and won't complain about the weather in Chicagoland. Others would wish they had it so hard.

I am truly serious --I have nothing to complaign about.

How are you-all?

258 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:41:31pm

re: #254 Mich-again

NIMBY has no political loyalty and its not just conservatives who oppose windmills in their backyard. Not by a long shot. Nice try though.

heh...I let that slide, even considering Feinsteins little maneuver last week out in the Mohave

259 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:42:02pm

re: #242 Killgore Trout

There's tons of stuff like that on almost every article. Click around on the fox website. It's quite amazing.

There's an Arizona site, I don't want to name it because it's one of 2 and I don't recall which, that's reluctant to take down anti-Semitic remarks. They have when I complained about it, but if a guy posted 20 other remarks, they remained.

On the other hand, I used to read a Philadelphia site that not only took down posts, but blocked accounts. The article I was reading at the time was about the Asian guy(?) who gunned down people at a nursing home(?) last year, the year before, in Pennsylvania.

Just reminded me of what goes on on the net.

260 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:42:24pm

re: #247 marjoriemoon
American Backlash Over LED Christmas Lights
It's somewhere on this thread

261 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:42:32pm

re: #252 albusteve

I thought the remark, in passing, was fairly innocent considering the context...it's a legit thought to cross your mind

I suppose, I just don't have much concern for the terrorist's family and loved ones. To me they are all suspects and should be interrogated.

262 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:44:21pm

re: #240 darthstar

After having my toothpaste taken by TSA last night and watching the woman in front of me have to defend having more than three ounces of breast milk in a plastic bottle for her baby, I actually thought for the briefest moment that profiling might not be so bad after all...of course, I quickly cursed myself for harboring such thoughts just because I was briefly inconvenienced. But I figured I should be honest and admit that the thought did cross my mind.

Exactly.
The Israelis do it right; but they have invested a lot of money and they hire and train the best at it. They must, because their system works. I'm not sure I would want to trust their responsibilities to some of the folks working our TSA.

More than how much they bother me over the bottles I'm carrying, I think I would be watching to see if they alert and paying attention, or are they joking around with their co-workers? A lack of attention by them to their work would be much more worrying to me that my being inconvenienced for what I think is a silly reason.

263 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:45:08pm

re: #255 darthstar

LOL of the day!

264 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:45:09pm

re: #255 darthstar

Okay, true story from this week, and slightly embarrassing. On our way through SFO to Seattle on Monday, I was called aside for frisking. I hopped onto the pad with both feet and held my arms out for the gal, who said "You look happy."

I said, "Frisk me!"

She said, "Sorry, he's got to do it." and motioned for a man to come frisk me. He was very thorough, finding a small USB storage device in my pocket (which he pulled the cap off before "looking inside it"--at my data, I assume) and then found the four Rolaids in my next pocket--as I said, he was being thorough, and he frisked my legs down to the ankle--firmly. But when we got to Seattle, we were picked up by my wife's cousin and made a stop at Toys-r-Us to pick up a microphone for her son's Wii game. As we entered the store, she said to my wife, "What's that coming out of his leg?"--I had just done laundry before dressing for the flight, and a pair of my underwear was in the leg of my jeans...I missed it, TSA missed it, and it wasn't until it was hanging out of my ankle in the store that it was discovered (by more than a few people...to much chuckling). That's what happens when you get up at 5am to race off to the airport.

Note: there were no explosives in the underwear, and they were clean.

LOL! Great story!! But it makes sense they didn't find it. It was just cloth with nothing in it.

265 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:45:13pm

re: #261 Bagua

I suppose, I just don't have much concern for the terrorist's family and loved ones. To me they are all suspects and should be interrogated.

I have no concerns either....could care less whatever becomes of them

266 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:47:10pm

Well, looks like I was wrong in my suspicion that this would ultimately turn out to be something less "sensational" than initial reports suggested.

I'm often happy to be proven wrong, because I tend to have a cynical and pessimistic outlook. This time, my gut told me to take the more optimistic choice, and of course that's when I turn out to be wrong.

267 captdiggs  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:47:16pm

This attempt was far more sophisticated than earlier reports.
They have also reported that his seating choice was ideal for maximum damage.

268 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:47:50pm

re: #205 Bagua

At least five already "successful" IIRC, counting Lockerbie and 9-11. Several other serious attempts, including this one, the "shoebomb", the thwarted plot out of the UK and then the one from the PI.


This is terrible. So, in a few days, the news cycle will drop this story and we'll focus on New Years eve, Super Bowl, Iraq, whatever until the next attempt. It's like waiting for enough people to get run over at an intersection before a stop sign is put up - though 295 times more powerful (or how many ever were on the flight manifest).

269 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:47:59pm

re: #265 albusteve

Reports are that his father warned the embassy about him. I don't see any need to round up innocent people for interrogation.

270 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:48:24pm

re: #265 albusteve

I have no concerns either...could care less whatever becomes of them

I care. Treating the family like terrorists because one son does something stupid (and criminal) only validates his actions in the eyes of other family members who may be 'on the fence' about his motivations. The last thing you want to do is inspire more people to try what he did. It only takes one successful terror attack attempt to send us into a frenzy of abandoning our own rights.

271 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:48:26pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

American Backlash Over LED Christmas Lights
It's somewhere on this thread

Thanks. I didn't see anything on slave reparations! but I'll read through.

One comment was cute, "The next thing you know they are going to try and tell us that we can't use DDT or asbestos. At least we can still drink and drive, right?"

(I applaud him for not using a sarc tag.)

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:48:53pm

re: #269 Killgore Trout

Reports are that his father warned the embassy about him. I don't see any need to round up innocent people for interrogation.

I don't think we have any jurisdiction over him, either.

273 Gus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:49:21pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

American Backlash Over LED Christmas Lights
It's somewhere on this thread

Yeah, things were bad enough when they stopped using candles to light Christmas trees. /

This video shows an LED light display:

Vimeo
274 Greengolem64  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:49:33pm

re: #163 marjoriemoon

But so it is. And even more actually... if you book online as a Platinum flyer, you don't have to answer any questions, just select the seat. The status gets you the seat anyway. If I call the airlines to book, they ask the capable and willing question.

I think the attendants are supposed to handle the door, but they don't want people in those seats flipping out, running off or getting in the way of an evacuation. If you sit there, they expect you to help others.

Not quite right. You use "Platinum" so I am going to assume you mean Delta. I've flown over 150,000 miles on Delta just this year and if you select an EXIT row seat online (regardless of status) they do make you respond to four questions with respect to exit row seating...

GG

275 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:50:12pm

re: #270 darthstar

I care. [...]

Of course you do, no surprise there.

276 Stuart Leviton  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:50:44pm

re: #215 marjoriemoon

I could be rich :)


And they could market face lifts and tummy tucks. A whole new line of business.

277 Killgore Trout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:51:11pm

re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think we have any jurisdiction over him, either.

We can reach out and touch people if we want to. It's not terribly difficult.

278 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:51:52pm

re: #273 Gus 802

Yeah, things were bad enough when they stopped using candles to light Christmas trees. /

This video shows an LED light display:

[Video]

Wow! What talent!

279 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:52:17pm

re: #275 Bagua

Of course you do, no surprise there.

You're not calling me a terrorist sympathizer, are you? If his father tried to turn him in, then that indicates his father doesn't share his son's extremist views.

Speaking of extremists, I hear Glenn Beck is already working on finding some kind of conspiracy to tie this asshole (the kid, not his father) to President Obama.

280 Greengolem64  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:52:28pm

re: #254 Mich-again

NIMBY has no political loyalty and its not just conservatives who oppose windmills in their backyard. Not by a long shot. Nice try though.

Just ask "Teddy" (RIP) up in Massachusetts...or John "F'ing" Kerry...

Seems like neither of them was real keen on having the water based windmill farms up in the Nantucket region...

...Just say'in...

GG

281 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:52:29pm

Nudist flights are disgusting. Think how uncomfortable that would be. Would you want to be naked on a 14-hour overseas flight? Torture.

But I can very well imagine the airlines giving everyone a jumpsuit to wear.

282 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:52:41pm

re: #255 darthstar

hahahahahaha!
*snicker*
*snort*
hahahaha!
Great story!

The elastic in my grandmother's drawers gave way in the grocery store once; she suddenly couldn't walk, and looked down to find 'em around her ankles.

So it's nice to know this can happen to guys, too!

283 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:53:30pm

re: #282 reine.de.tout

Thanks...but it wasn't the underwear I was wearing that fell through my pant leg...that would have been tough to explain.

284 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:53:30pm

re: #269 Killgore Trout

Reports are that his father warned the embassy about him. I don't see any need to round up innocent people for interrogation.

niether do I...it's pointless now..as far as any concern for them, I'm emotionally void as to their personal grief their son is a wannabe killer, a tough situation for them I guess, but I have problems of my own

285 Gus  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:53:51pm

re: #278 marjoriemoon

Wow! What talent!

Neat huh? Thought I would look after reading some of the comments complaints at Fox Nation. That's all they do over there: complain, complain, complain, complain.

286 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:53:57pm

re: #281 Alouette

Nudist flights are disgusting. Think how uncomfortable that would be. Would you want to be naked on a 14-hour overseas flight? Torture.

But I can very well imagine the airlines giving everyone a jumpsuit to wear.

I honestly would not want my naked behind sitting on a seat that some stranger's naked behind just sat on for several hours.

287 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:54:17pm

re: #279 darthstar

You're not calling me a terrorist sympathizer, are you? [...]

Nope, that is a red herring.

288 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:54:21pm

re: #283 darthstar

Thanks...but it wasn't the underwear I was wearing that fell through my pant leg...that would have been tough to explain.

Well, good point!
Still a great story.

289 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:55:43pm

I worry about the children in the terrorist's family. Do they see their father/brother/uncle as a hero or a terrible stain on the family--how do they internalize all the stuff they really can't understand.

Horrible to think about.

290 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:55:51pm

re: #274 Greengolem64

Not quite right. You use "Platinum" so I am going to assume you mean Delta. I've flown over 150,000 miles on Delta just this year and if you select an EXIT row seat online (regardless of status) they do make you respond to four questions with respect to exit row seating...

GG

Well the airlines all have their own top tier labels. American has Platinum and Executive Platinum. My guys are Exec Plat. United, which we just started using more, has another tier label, I don't recall. Continental, Plat Elite I think?

Anyway, I'm probably clicking through the question on the screen at some point that I hadn't noticed.

291 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:56:37pm

re: #99 Bagua

The poor father? The guy tries to murder a aircraft full of people and you're worried about how his father copes?

That is taking the whole "bleeding heart" thing a step too far.

Who's gonna waterboard the 8 year old, you?

How do you know she's really telling you everything she knows?

292 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:56:40pm

re: #270 darthstar

I care. Treating the family like terrorists because one son does something stupid (and criminal) only validates his actions in the eyes of other family members who may be 'on the fence' about his motivations. The last thing you want to do is inspire more people to try what he did. It only takes one successful terror attack attempt to send us into a frenzy of abandoning our own rights.

I said I have no concerns for them, legally or emotionally

293 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:57:27pm

New model upstairs------>

294 What, me worry?  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:57:49pm

re: #281 Alouette

Nudist flights are disgusting. Think how uncomfortable that would be. Would you want to be naked on a 14-hour overseas flight? Torture.

But I can very well imagine the airlines giving everyone a jumpsuit to wear.

Well you most likely would not fly with your family. Unless you were raised in a nudist colony I suppose... but that would just be creepy.

295 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:58:35pm

I'm trying to remember how thorough security screening is in Amsterdam. I had an Amsterdam connection on a flight from Detroit to Moscow two years ago.

My son flew from New York to Amsterdam, we met at Schiphol and traveled on to Moscow together. Then on the way back, we split up in Amsterdam and he went on to New York and we went to Detroit.

When we arrived at Customs in Detroit, the agent asked, "What happened to the third member of your party?"

So they were tracking our flight outside of the U.S.!

We were also bringing back a whole bunch of DVDs, which fortunately customs did not find. We would have been so freaking busted.

296 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:58:41pm

re: #273 Gus 802

Yeah, things were bad enough when they stopped using candles to light Christmas trees. /

This video shows an LED light display:


[Video]

That's really nice, and I thoroughly enjoy a good display like that, BUT . . .
I have a friend who lives a few doors down from a guy who does this in his yard at Christmas.
She hates it.
She hears the same music over and over and over again every night for weeks.
The cops have to come direct traffic in the neighborhood, there's so much traffic.

When I was growing up, the stores used to all have these sorts of wonderful displays, but I don't see them in stores anymore.

297 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:59:18pm

"What's that hanging down your leg, sir?"

298 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:59:30pm

re: #99 Bagua

Yes, I think that it must be terrible to be a father and have your son become a terrorist. I'm not sure why that qualifies me as 'bleeding heart' in your eyes. I'm glad the father actually called about his son; I'm sorry that his warning wasn't heeded more. If anyone should be believed in that case, I'd think it'd be the father.

Can you explain how it's 'bleeding heart' of me to think that it's awful to have to call and report your own son as a terrorist?

299 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:01:08pm

re: #291 negativ

Who's gonna waterboard the 8 year old, you?

How do you know she's really telling you everything she knows?

What 8 year old? The terrorist was a child?

300 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:01:24pm

re: #298 Obdicut

Yes, I think that it must be terrible to be a father and have your son become a terrorist. I'm not sure why that qualifies me as 'bleeding heart' in your eyes. I'm glad the father actually called about his son; I'm sorry that his warning wasn't heeded more. If anyone should be believed in that case, I'd think it'd be the father.

Can you explain how it's 'bleeding heart' of me to think that it's awful to have to call and report your own son as a terrorist?

it's just an expression...sometimes you need to take stuff on the surface..no big deal

301 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:01:59pm

re: #298 Obdicut

Yes, I think that it must be terrible to be a father and have your son become a terrorist. I'm not sure why that qualifies me as 'bleeding heart' in your eyes. I'm glad the father actually called about his son; I'm sorry that his warning wasn't heeded more. If anyone should be believed in that case, I'd think it'd be the father.

Can you explain how it's 'bleeding heart' of me to think that it's awful to have to call and report your own son as a terrorist?

I don't. I think it is REALLLY important to remember that we are dealing with human beings. Not every Muslim is a whacko, and not every Evangelical is a whacko.

I don't want to live in a world where everyone is typecast.

302 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:02:53pm

Shoe bomber ... underwear bomber ... you know what's coming next. Some jihadist will get on a plane with explosive material concealed -- ahem! -- inside his body. How will they search for that? And by what term what will such a bomber be called?

303 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:03:25pm

re: #302 The Curmudgeon

Shoe bomber ... underwear bomber ... you know what's coming next. Some jihadist will get on a plane with explosive material concealed -- ahem! -- inside his body. How will they search for that? And by what term what will such a bomber be called?

body bomber

304 Capitalist Tool  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:03:50pm

re: #302 The Curmudgeon

Shoe bomber ... underwear bomber ... you know what's coming next. Some jihadist will get on a plane with explosive material concealed -- ahem! -- inside his body. How will they search for that? And by what term what will such a bomber be called?


How about----
asshole.

305 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:06:28pm

re: #125 Bagua

Oh, and...

Drop what PC nonsense, exactly? It's a nice phrase, but what do you actually mean?

306 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:06:32pm

re: #302 The Curmudgeon

Shoe bomber ... underwear bomber ... you know what's coming next. Some jihadist will get on a plane with explosive material concealed -- ahem! -- inside his body. How will they search for that? And by what term what will such a bomber be called?

Been there. Done that.

307 Greengolem64  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:06:51pm

re: #262 reine.de.tout

Exactly.
The Israelis do it right; but they have invested a lot of money and they hire and train the best at it. They must, because their system works. I'm not sure I would want to trust their responsibilities to some of the folks working our TSA.

More than how much they bother me over the bottles I'm carrying, I think I would be watching to see if they alert and paying attention, or are they joking around with their co-workers? A lack of attention by them to their work would be much more worrying to me that my being inconvenienced for what I think is a silly reason.

The Israeli system 'works' because they understand they are under constant attack. Until we as a populace get that through our heads then things like "Thousands Standing Around" (TSA) will never get fixed. Not using a tool like profiling because we're afraid the people working the lines can't do it doesn't cut it. You FIX the system.

Would you rather be reactive or proactive?

Reactive means cleaning up after an incident like 9-11 or a successful airplane bomber.

Proactive means PREVENTING that incident from ever happening.

How many of you really remember 9/11 and what it was like to travel by air immediately after that incident? I do, and it was NOT fun. National Guard standing around the airports with AR's. Talking with my travel mate on the first flight we took after 9/11 about 'what to do' if we see someone doing something suspicious on a flight...etc.

Ah...but we're all 'safe' now...it's been eight years so all's good...right?
//

GG

308 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:07:11pm

re: #298 Obdicut

No, no bid deal. I'm not condemning you as anything terrible. You care, I get that. I just see worrying about the terrorists fathers feelings as being misplaced.

309 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:08:01pm

re: #306 Alouette

Been there. Done that.

Ah, then it'll be the rectum bomber.

310 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:08:12pm

re: #306 Alouette

Been there. Done that.

lovely.

311 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:08:48pm

re: #308 Bagua

Why do you see it as being misplaced? I'm asking you to explain your attack.

How is it

taking the whole "bleeding heart" thing a step too far.

?

312 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:09:14pm

re: #299 Bagua

My mistake, I was conflating your argument with albusteve's. Gonna go stand in the corner now.

313 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:09:43pm

re: #302 The Curmudgeon

Shoe bomber ... underwear bomber ... you know what's coming next. Some jihadist will get on a plane with explosive material concealed -- ahem! -- inside his body. How will they search for that? And by what term what will such a bomber be called?

already been thought of...I was wondering about a huge Rasta hairdo, with lots of tangled dreads etc...wind in a bunch of detcord mixed with some little threadlike pieces of C4....lean your head against a window....

314 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:10:08pm

re: #309 The Curmudgeon

Ah, then it'll be the rectum bomber.

Complimentary cavity searches?

315 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:10:46pm

We'll have to develope that x-ray walk that Aaaanold went thru in Total ReCall to get to Mars.

316 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:11:32pm

re: #312 negativ

My mistake, I was conflating your argument with albusteve's. Gonna go stand in the corner now.

No problem mate, I get confused myself. I see Obdicut still updinged your mistaken comment, I guess accuracy is not important, just the target. LOL

317 The Curmudgeon  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:12:14pm

re: #314 darthstar

Complimentary cavity searches?

Not necessary. But everyone who flies will have to be subjected to a rectal purge before boarding.

318 Greengolem64  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:13:18pm

re: #314 darthstar

Complimentary cavity searches?


Eh...hem...

Alimentary cavity search?

Rectum...damn near killed 'em.

GG

319 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:14:26pm

re: #311 Obdicut

Why do you see it as being misplaced? I'm asking you to explain your attack.

How is it

?

It wasn't an "attack" Obdicut, it was an observation. You disagree, so I would expect. Thus the contrast in concerns that I was highlighting.

Try not to panic too much every time I chat with you. Your views get heard as well as mine.

320 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:16:00pm

As it stands, the Jihadi Whacko's want power. They plan to get it buy taking the whole world back to the 1200's. They feel comfortable in that time period. They are using fear (terror) to attempt to paralyze us. If we quit travelling on airplanes or living in large groups (cities), they will have accomplished their goal.

If we make ourselves SO secure that we defeat them by conventional law enforcement methods, they will have also won in a way because we will have given-up so much of our civil liberties in exchange for security.

With or without the terrorists, it's a dangerous world.

321 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:17:03pm

re: #319 Bagua

Playing internet psychologist is pretty silly, Bagua.

What did you mean by your comment? How was it 'bleeding heart' of me to think that calling to report your son as a potential terrorist threat is an awful thing?

Do you actually even disagree with that?

322 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:17:44pm

re: #320 ggt

As it stands, the Jihadi Whacko's want power. They plan to get it buy taking the whole world back to the 1200's. They feel comfortable in that time period. They are using fear (terror) to attempt to paralyze us. If we quit travelling on airplanes or living in large groups (cities), they will have accomplished their goal.

If we make ourselves SO secure that we defeat them by conventional law enforcement methods, they will have also won in a way because we will have given-up so much of our civil liberties in exchange for security.

With or without the terrorists, it's a dangerous world.

I don't think they want power so much as to disrupt the power structure in place. I do, however, agree with what you said after your first sentence.

323 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:19:17pm

re: #321 Obdicut

Playing internet psychologist is pretty silly, Bagua.

What did you mean by your comment? How was it 'bleeding heart' of me to think that calling to report your son as a potential terrorist threat is an awful thing?

Do you actually even disagree with that?

here's some psychology for you...you are obsessive, the sentence defined itself, there is no more to it...and further these insecurities get annoying

324 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:20:21pm

re: #323 albusteve

How is it obsessive to ask what a poster meant by a post that was clearly and obviously critical of me?

Is it obsessive of you to comment on a conversation between Bagua and myself?

325 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:20:39pm

re: #322 darthstar

I don't think they want power so much as to disrupt the power structure in place. I do, however, agree with what you said after your first sentence.

I think they enjoy watching us change tactics in response to their actions. In their twisted minds, they think it proves the power they are gaining.

326 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:22:57pm

re: #324 Obdicut

How is it obsessive to ask what a poster meant by a post that was clearly and obviously critical of me?

Is it obsessive of you to comment on a conversation between Bagua and myself?

you know what bleeding heart means, or you are simply ignorant, not everybody wants to play word games...and yes, I comment wherever I choose...LGF is cool that way eh?

327 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:24:12pm

I'm off, Lizards!

Have a wonderful evening!

328 albusteve  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:24:49pm

re: #325 ggt

I think they enjoy watching us change tactics in response to their actions. In their twisted minds, they think it proves the power they are gaining.

tough guys...I wonder if a flock of Predators scares them, ya think?

329 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:25:52pm

re: #326 albusteve

I do indeed know what bleeding heart means, which is why I'm asking how on earth it would apply to what I said. Because it doesn't, in the least. It was a stupid comment by Bagua, and I'm calling him out on it.

I'm not sure why that bothers you so much.

330 darthstar  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:34:32pm

re: #325 ggt

I think they enjoy watching us change tactics in response to their actions. In their twisted minds, they think it proves the power they are gaining.

In that respect, I agree, it is a way of gaining power. They were especially effective against the last administration that was more reactive than responsive (I know, many here will disagree with that statement.) But the duct-tape and plastic, keep shopping, and let us spy on everyone we want approach did nothing to make us safer, though it did do wonders for those in the more internationally isolated parts of our country to ease their fears.

331 Bagua  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:35:09pm

re: #329 Obdicut

You're in your attack mode again Obdicut, it is tedious and transparent. Chat with yourself.

332 jayzee  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:37:41pm

re: #330 darthstar

In that respect, I agree, it is a way of gaining power. They were especially effective against the last administration that was more reactive than responsive (I know, many here will disagree with that statement.) But the duct-tape and plastic, keep shopping, and let us spy on everyone we want approach did nothing to make us safer, though it did do wonders for those in the more internationally isolated parts of our country to ease their fears.

I hope this administration is as reactive. So far they appear to be thankfully even if they don't change the alert status.

333 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:38:20pm

re: #331 Bagua

In other words, no, you cannot explain your initial post at all, and are now going to resort to saying I'm attacking you, even though you clearly started out criticizing me.

It takes a lot of nerve, or a complete disregard for your own credibility, to say I'm in attack mode when I'm trying to get you to explain your own attack on me.

So, yeah: ceasing to engage with you now. See you in the next thread where you attack me out of the blue and then act like the injured party.

335 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:49:08pm

re: #302 The Curmudgeon

Shoe bomber ... underwear bomber ... you know what's coming next. Some jihadist will get on a plane with explosive material concealed -- ahem! -- inside his body. How will they search for that? And by what term what will such a bomber be called?

Already crossed that bridge this year.

336 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:59:53pm

re: #332 jayzee

I hope this administration is as reactive. So far they appear to be thankfully even if they don't change the alert status.

So far, Obama seems to have been heeding the facts of life being relayed to him in his daily security briefings.

337 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:04:57pm

re: #307 Greengolem64

The Israeli system 'works' because they understand they are under constant attack. Until we as a populace get that through our heads then things like "Thousands Standing Around" (TSA) will never get fixed. Not using a tool like profiling because we're afraid the people working the lines can't do it doesn't cut it. You FIX the system.

Would you rather be reactive or proactive?

Reactive means cleaning up after an incident like 9-11 or a successful airplane bomber.

Proactive means PREVENTING that incident from ever happening.

How many of you really remember 9/11 and what it was like to travel by air immediately after that incident? I do, and it was NOT fun. National Guard standing around the airports with AR's. Talking with my travel mate on the first flight we took after 9/11 about 'what to do' if we see someone doing something suspicious on a flight...etc.

Ah...but we're all 'safe' now...it's been eight years so all's good...right?
//

GG

That sounded like a bit of a lecture directed at me, but you're preaching to the choir.

I would much prefer to see an Israeli-type system in place here. I think a substantial part of the population would prefer it too. someone earlier made the very good point that what Israel does may not be "doable" on the scale we would need to have done here in this country.

However, among our government officials, there does not seem to be the will to spend that sort of money and do the sorts of things the Israelis do to make sure their system is effective. Nor is there the will to go into the whole "profiling" thing.

We have what we have, carried over from the previous administration to this one. My opinion that it's insufficient isn't going to cause the gov't to change it.

338 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:07:38pm

re: #337 reine.de.tout

That sounded like a bit of a lecture directed at me, but you're preaching to the choir.

I would much prefer to see an Israeli-type system in place here. I think a substantial part of the population would prefer it too. someone earlier made the very good point that what Israel does may not be "doable" on the scale we would need to have done here in this country.

However, among our government officials, there does not seem to be the will to spend that sort of money and do the sorts of things the Israelis do to make sure their system is effective. Nor is there the will to go into the whole "profiling" thing.

We have what we have, carried over from the previous administration to this one. My opinion that it's insufficient isn't going to cause the gov't to change it.

Even at Ben Gurion Airport they confiscate your liquids. That is why it is better to buy Ahava products at the Zionist Mall and not at the duty free shop. :)

339 jayzee  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:17:52pm

When someone's father does this it is best not to say this:

But the official said "the info on him was not deemed specific enough to pull his visa or put him on a no-fly list."

340 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:25:30pm

re: #338 Alouette

Even at Ben Gurion Airport they confiscate your liquids. That is why it is better to buy Ahava products at the Zionist Mall and not at the duty free shop. :)

Just made a purchase, alouette

341 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:31:42pm

re: #338 Alouette

You do the classiest pitches for your site, I've got to say: only when appropriate. Kudos. I'm going to buy that book about Jewish life in San Francisco next week, from you.

342 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:39:32pm

re: #340 reine.de.tout

Just made a purchase, alouette

What'd you get?

343 Sheepdogess  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:19:00pm

He also had NO passport.

344 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:20:56pm

re: #343 Sheepdogess

He also had NO passport.

How the FUCK did he get on a plane with no passport?

345 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:22:18pm

re: #343 Sheepdogess

He also had NO passport.

Wait, do you have a source for that? I haven't read that.

346 abolitionist  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:26:03pm

re: #343 Sheepdogess

He also had NO passport.

Interesting. I'm getting a sense that the jihadist was perhaps disguised as a "mule" (for drugs smuggling).

347 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:26:07pm

re: #342 Alouette

What'd you get?

Body washes
1 honeysuckle & lavender, YUM
1 hibiscus & fig.

348 Vicious Babushka  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:29:11pm

re: #347 reine.de.tout

Body washes
1 honeysuckle & lavender, YUM
1 hibiscus & fig.

I have those! They are excellent. Enjoy.

349 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:32:13pm

re: #348 Alouette

I have those! They are excellent. Enjoy.

I will!

350 JamesS  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 7:39:22am

re: #58 FrogMarch

His last known address was a 4 million dollar apartment?
So much for the poor poor victim theory.

Yes - quite a few of these people seem to be quite rich; I seem to remember bin Laden himself spent a while in London as a rich young man driving a Mercedes. It isn't "poor downtrodden" people who do this kind of thing; this guy's the son of a powerful, well-connected millionaire, bin Laden himself had a fortune of something like $300m from his father's huge construction empire.

I'm surprised by the choice of explosive though: yes, PETN is *powerful*, but it's also hard to detonate (which is why both Richard Reid and this guy failed: their bombs didn't really "explode", just injure them and attract attention!) Thanks to the use of PETN, this "bomb" didn't even manage to kill the guy wearing it at the time, let alone any of his targets; good for us, of course, but a second failure for the terrorists - why did they not change methods after the first failure?

Two things really get me here: first, why weren't the explosives detected, on him or Reid? I remember seeing my bags swabbed for explosive residue back in 2002, flying out of Houston, and saw passengers themselves being checked by detector arches in news footage. Did he go through proper screening, since he was connecting from one international flight to another, or "airside transit", meaning he only went through Nigerian security? Second, he was refused a UK visa - and the Nigerian government just said he "sneaked" back into Nigeria on Dec 24 then flew back out straight away. Why "sneak" into your own country? Yet he was still given a US visa for some reason - after being refused a UK one, despite being on a terrorist watch list. There's something wrong with this picture.

351 Greengolem64  Sun, Dec 27, 2009 7:02:56pm

re: #337 reine.de.tout

That sounded like a bit of a lecture directed at me, but you're preaching to the choir.

I would much prefer to see an Israeli-type system in place here. I think a substantial part of the population would prefer it too. someone earlier made the very good point that what Israel does may not be "doable" on the scale we would need to have done here in this country.

However, among our government officials, there does not seem to be the will to spend that sort of money and do the sorts of things the Israelis do to make sure their system is effective. Nor is there the will to go into the whole "profiling" thing.

We have what we have, carried over from the previous administration to this one. My opinion that it's insufficient isn't going to cause the gov't to change it.

Sorry Rein...should have made it clear that it was a 'corporate' you.

As for opinions having an effect on what happens...if enough people make it known what their concerns are then things might change. But, as long as we consider our opinions ineffective then they certainly WILL be ineffective.

I agree that an exact Israeli type model is probably too onerous to deploy here...but we can certainly do BETTER than what we have today.

Thanks,

GG


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