Here’s a video by environmentalist Peter Sinclair that asks and answers the question: how reliable are the scientific models used to predict climate change? This is one of those subjects that’s brought up in every LGF thread on global warming, usually by people who’ve uncritically bought into the climate change denial propaganda that models are “worthless” or have been proven wrong. They’re not and they haven’t.
1 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Sat, Dec 26, 2009 4:58:20pm |
I thought Charles might be posting about a car or a woman.
:)
| 4 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:03:18pm |
Nicely edited. Entertaining as well as informative.
| 5 |
Stanghazi Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:04:10pm |
I was hoping for an old Elvis Costello video.
Oh well, I'll learn something instead.
| 7 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:06:01pm |
actually I only trust people I am pretty sure are not lying to me...I know nothing about chemistry or physics, therefore when I read some of these threads about who is right and who is wrong I just have to leave it to others but even so, well meaning, honest people can be wrong...so I pretty much go with Charles...on this one...for now
| 8 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:19:16pm |
I love the way the music gets ominous when he puts the candle into the CO2
| 9 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:27:35pm |
It's pretty damn awesome that the model was able to show the volcanic eruption accurately.
| 10 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:27:42pm |
Let's be fair.
To maintain that a particular model has not been conclusively proven to be 100% accurate is a far cry from a claim that the model has been proven wrong or is worthless.
| 12 |
Jetpilot1101 Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:28:32pm |
What really stinks is that regardless of the models and their dire predictions, the world population (with very few exceptions), seems to not give a rat's ass about our impending fate. China and India could care less about their emmisions and from the looks of it, the US Senate wouldn't have ratified a treaty from Copenhagen had one emerged. I hate to sound like a pessimist, but until people start waking up and using some good old fashioned conservation techniques, all the posturing from both sides won't do a bit of good. Action needs to be taken. I'm not sure what that is exactly but we need to get a move on or we'll all be living a post-apocalyptic movie script.
| 13 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:29:12pm |
| 14 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:29:49pm |
Good video. Dr. James Hansen deserves some support and recognition. As AGW has become such a partisan issue the debate has become too emotional and there is a tendency to demonise people like Hansen and dismiss out of hand everything they do as facile or fraudulent. This is, of course, incorrect and Sinclair did a good job in demonstrating that fact.
| 15 |
Sharmuta Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:30:59pm |
re: #7 albusteve
actually I only trust people I am pretty sure are not lying to me...I know nothing about chemistry or physics, therefore when I read some of these threads about who is right and who is wrong I just have to leave it to others but even so, well meaning, honest people can be wrong...so I pretty much go with Charles...on this one...for now
I understand how you feel. Charles has made it pretty easy to learn more about it with the videos and links he's posted, if folks would just watch and read (I'm not saying you're not). It's really sad to see some people show up on other threads, like the ones on the so-called 70s ice age, and you read their comment and know they didn't even bother to watch the video. So sad. All it takes is a mouse click and paying attention for a few minutes, or reading. It reminds me a lot of creationists in that they just can't click links. Climate change is real, it's happening, and it's important folks start learning the truth. The scientists are not lying.
Cheers, Bish.
| 16 |
The Curmudgeon Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:38:42pm |
Global warming doesn't scare me. I can get all the ice I need at the Seven-Eleven.
| 17 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:41:39pm |
re: #12 Jetpilot1101
John Coetzeere: #12 Jetpilot1101
... Action needs to be taken. I'm not sure what that is exactly but we need to get a move on or we'll all be living a post-apocalyptic movie script.
To me that says it all. How can one advocate action on the one hand but on the other be so unsure of what to do. This illustrates the alarmist nature of the AGW advocates and is the opposite of critical thinking. It's nice to talk about models but where are the models that say "this political action which costs us x amount will lead to this result which will benefit us y amount." Until there is a cost benefit analysis of this whole thing arguing about modeling is irrelevant.
| 18 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:41:51pm |
Hmm... a bit too quiet. Will no one cast the first stone?
How about them Yankees?
| 19 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:43:51pm |
re: #16 The Curmudgeon
Global warming doesn't scare me. I can get all the ice I need at the Seven-Eleven.
I can get all the news I need on the weather report...
/
| 20 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:46:16pm |
re: #17 acacia
John Coetzeere: #12 Jetpilot1101
... Action needs to be taken. I'm not sure what that is exactly but we need to get a move on or we'll all be living a post-apocalyptic movie script.
To me that says it all. How can one advocate action on the one hand but on the other be so unsure of what to do. This illustrates the alarmist nature of the AGW advocates and is the opposite of critical thinking. It's nice to talk about models but where are the models that say "this political action which costs us x amount will lead to this result which will benefit us y amount." Until there is a cost benefit analysis of this whole thing arguing about modeling is irrelevant.
not knowing exactly what to do is alarmist? the opposte of critical thinking?...gotta think about that one...okay I got it!, we need to REDUCE CO2 emisissions
| 21 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:47:39pm |
re: #18 Bagua
Hmm... a bit too quiet. Will no one cast the first stone?
How about them Yankees?
I'd say the Rebels did okay early on...but injuries were a problem in the end
| 22 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:48:52pm |
| 23 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:49:58pm |
re: #17 acacia
Can you explain what you mean? There have been many studies of the cost of inaction on slowing climate change.
| 24 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:50:10pm |
re: #17 acacia
John Coetzeere: #12 Jetpilot1101
... Action needs to be taken. I'm not sure what that is exactly but we need to get a move on or we'll all be living a post-apocalyptic movie script.
To me that says it all. How can one advocate action on the one hand but on the other be so unsure of what to do. This illustrates the alarmist nature of the AGW advocates and is the opposite of critical thinking. It's nice to talk about models but where are the models that say "this political action which costs us x amount will lead to this result which will benefit us y amount." Until there is a cost benefit analysis of this whole thing arguing about modeling is irrelevant.
arguing the models determines the validity of the problem, it does not address the solutions....sounds like you're a bit stirred up there amigo
| 25 |
SteveC Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:51:40pm |
re: #18 Bagua
Hmm... a bit too quiet. Will no one cast the first stone?
How about them Yankees?
re: #21 albusteve
I'd say the Rebels did okay early on...but injuries were a problem in the end
The Rebels didn't find their focus until they hired Robert E. Lee to manage the team. And as good as he was, even he couldn't get past the fact that they didn't have very deep farm teams.
| 26 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:55:32pm |
Is there anyone in America who thinks reducing dependence on foreign energy is a bad idea? If not, then why not start there by investing in nuclear, solar, wind and cleaner carbons?
This seems like a no-lose proposition and a pretty good economic stimulus plan too.
| 27 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:57:03pm |
re: #26 Spare O'Lake
Is there anyone in America who thinks reducing dependence on foreign energy is a bad idea? If not, then why not start there by investing in nuclear, solar, wind and cleaner carbons?
This seems like a no-lose proposition and a pretty good economic stimulus plan too.
There is investment in cleaner "carbons" (re: coal) and wind energy. The issue with nuclear energy is what to do with the waste. It's not something easily disposed of.
| 28 |
Summer Seale Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:58:33pm |
I just started watching this video while I've been preparing my latest speech about how Obama might not really be a real American, but maybe kinda is, and I was really surprised that scientists play with models!
Did you all know that?
Like it's not bad enough that they're playing with fruit flies, in France! Now they're playing around with models! Isn't that weird and wasteful? You betcha!
Take me, for instance. I used to play with models too. They were called "dolls" back in my day - not so long ago, right? We used to place them in "doll houses" and "play house".
Is that what scientists are doing to try to tell us that they're working hard on our dime? Well, golly, if that ain't something else!
See, that's why scientists can be great - because they're in touch with their feelings and all - but also why we have to make sure that the things they are telling us are worth spending our tax dollars on! I mean who did ya ever hear about who got around to saving the world by playing with models?
That's what's going to save God's earth: lower taxes. And I didn't have to play with any models to understand this! You betcha I didn't!
That's probably why I was selected to be the Vice Presidential candidate and they weren't! I think that some of us have grown up a bit more than "scientists" and know when to stop playing with models!
You betcha!
| 29 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 5:59:15pm |
re: #15 Sharmuta
I don't recall a time when there was so much science, good and bad, perped on the people to influence them...certainly the problem, the science and even the solutions are epic...most people will learn some fundamentals, maybe a bit more, but we need to be sold...someplace to put our confidence and I see this as a crisis for AGW...I don't doubt the science of the phenomena but I don't think anyone is sure where it will lead and certainly where it will end...seems like a good idea to reverse the amt of CO2 we are dumping into the atmosphere, but I'm dubious of draconian culture reshaping measures at this point...that's just natural imo...I don't have much confidence in world unity
| 30 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:02:51pm |
re: #20 albusteve
Alright tell me how that is going to happen, how do we know the proposed action will actually reduce emissions, how much of it needs to happen, what are the various costs of emission reductions, how the costs - which necessarily reduce funding of other beneficial programs - will affect others, what will happen given various reduction goals, what are those benefits compared to the risks of not taking any particular action. If you can answer those questions with accuracy you will be the first and even if you can, that is only the beginning of the issue because after gaining that knowledge people get to choose how they want their money spent. Maybe, if the people are convinced that it is more beneficial to do something, the people will want to spend their limited resources on other methods to reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere such as reflectivity solutions, greater absorption methods and the thousands of other ideas that are out there. We haven't even begun to look at this issue critically.
| 31 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:03:29pm |
David Frum writes a column pointing out that the Senate health care reform plan is indeed constitutional (which it is), and gets treated to a barrage of hatred at Hot Air:
[Link: hotair.com...]
| 32 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:03:42pm |
re: #26 Spare O'Lake
Is there anyone in America who thinks reducing dependence on foreign energy is a bad idea? If not, then why not start there by investing in nuclear, solar, wind and cleaner carbons?
This seems like a no-lose proposition and a pretty good economic stimulus plan too.
Sadly nobody is proposing a decent energy policy. The Republicans are mow friendly to nuclear energy but I don't think they're serious about weaning us off oil. The Dems are certainly more environmentally concerned but don't look seriously enough at natural gas and nuclear. I'm pretty sure that nothing is going to be done until it's far too late.
| 33 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:04:39pm |
re: #26 Spare O'Lake
Is there anyone in America who thinks reducing dependence on foreign energy is a bad idea? If not, then why not start there by investing in nuclear, solar, wind and cleaner carbons?
This seems like a no-lose proposition and a pretty good economic stimulus plan too.
Amen brother. Here is a good example where there are few risks and lots of benefits to be gained, without even having to factor in measurable global climate benefits.
| 34 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:05:06pm |
re: #31 Charles
Paulian Konstitutional fantasies have taken over.
| 35 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:06:52pm |
I wonder how often this excuse has been used...
[Link: timesofindia.indiatimes.com...]
| 36 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:10:45pm |
re: #30 acacia
Alright tell me how that is going to happen, how do we know the proposed action will actually reduce emissions, how much of it needs to happen, what are the various costs of emission reductions, how the costs - which necessarily reduce funding of other beneficial programs - will affect others, what will happen given various reduction goals, what are those benefits compared to the risks of not taking any particular action. If you can answer those questions with accuracy you will be the first and even if you can, that is only the beginning of the issue because after gaining that knowledge people get to choose how they want their money spent. Maybe, if the people are convinced that it is more beneficial to do something, the people will want to spend their limited resources on other methods to reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere such as reflectivity solutions, greater absorption methods and the thousands of other ideas that are out there. We haven't even begun to look at this issue critically.
you're right...forget what we do know and let's look at this thing for an indeterminant time...spend endless millions trying to decide what our goals are, spend more time and money on fish and owl studies, spend even more time on whatever happened to Yucca Mt and why...I'm bored..I prefer some action...reusable energy is a money making industry of it's own...any boob can see we will need nuclear power to bridge us over...I guess I don't really get your point...how close and how long do we need to observe the obvious?...why don't we move forward where we can and learn as we go?
| 37 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:12:52pm |
re: #31 Charles
Someone pointed out "equal protection" problems "in" "this" "bill." I wonder if this same person complains of the state violations of the 14th Amendment with their gay marriage bans...
| 38 |
darthstar Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:13:07pm |
re: #31 Charles
David Frum writes a column pointing out that the Senate health care reform plan is indeed constitutional (which it is), and gets treated to a barrage of hatred at Hot Air:
[Link: hotair.com...]
I never thought I'd say this, but Frum isn't an idiot. He knows that most of the rhetoric from the elected Republicans is just partisan grandstanding with Palinesque rhetoric (or Beckish, if you prefer). The fact that he's getting pilloried by Michele Malkin and her band of freaks isn't surprising. It'll be interesting to see how he progresses after this response.
| 39 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:14:19pm |
re: #31 Charles
Although Obamacare is arguably constitutional under the commerce and general welfare clauses, Frum's argument is extremely weak. We're not "buying" Medicare insurance. It's a government subsidy funded by a government tax. The strongest argument for unconstitutionality is not comparing it to Medicare which is constitutional but because it mandates a private transaction. To my knowledge that has not happened at that federal level before.
| 40 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:14:34pm |
re: #32 Killgore Trout
Sadly nobody is proposing a decent energy policy. The Republicans are mow friendly to nuclear energy but I don't think they're serious about weaning us off oil. The Dems are certainly more environmentally concerned but don't look seriously enough at natural gas and nuclear. I'm pretty sure that nothing is going to be done until it's far too late.
we are nowhere even close to considering a no fossile fuel economy...wean means using less as we go, but less is still a shit load...dropping this on the GOP is silly, the facts prove just the opposite
| 41 |
darthstar Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:15:22pm |
re: #31 Charles
Ha! and this is priceless...I thought those at hot air were supposed to be conservatives themselves?
Frum is a conservative. pathetic little man.elduende on December 26, 2009 at 8:31 PM
| 42 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:16:59pm |
re: #38 darthstar
I never thought I'd say this, but Frum isn't an idiot. He knows that most of the rhetoric from the elected Republicans is just partisan grandstanding with Palinesque rhetoric (or Beckish, if you prefer). The fact that he's getting pilloried by Michele Malkin and her band of freaks isn't surprising. It'll be interesting to see how he progresses after this response.
David Frum's brand of conservatism doesn't have a chance. The right is way too far gone to want to listen to a relative "moderate" like Frum -- they're in love with extremism, and anyone who tries to talk them down from the ledge will be vilified and shunned.
That's just how it is. Anyone with more than two brain cells is a pariah in the modern GOP.
| 43 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:17:57pm |
re: #31 Charles
David Frum writes a column pointing out that the Senate health care reform plan is indeed constitutional (which it is), and gets treated to a barrage of hatred at Hot Air:
[Link: hotair.com...]
others say it isn't, I guess it depends on your interpretation of Constitutional law, but that's what courts are for...Frum is just another influential lawyer and writer
| 44 |
SteveC Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:18:53pm |
re: #41 darthstar
Ha! and this is priceless...I thought those at hot air were supposed to be conservatives themselves?
Frum is a conservative. pathetic little man.
elduende on December 26, 2009 at 8:31 PM
They are conservative, but they don't see themselves as pathetic.
Anyone else... there is a strong possibility!
| 45 |
avanti Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:19:21pm |
re: #31 Charles
David Frum writes a column pointing out that the Senate health care reform plan is indeed constitutional (which it is), and gets treated to a barrage of hatred at Hot Air:
[Link: hotair.com...]
Yep, if it was unconstitutional to require you to buy heath insurance, I could op out of my Medicare and use my wife's work plan, instead, they make me pay.
| 46 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:19:43pm |
re: #42 Charles
Do you think Snowe and Collins are going to be forced out of the party, or are they safe due to their huge support in their state? I don't think that either could be challenged successfully in a primary, but that's not the only way to force someone out of the party.
| 48 |
Olsonist Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:20:18pm |
re: #32 Killgore Trout
If you are making an economic argument, then it's too late.
If you are making an environmental argument, then it's probably too late.
| 49 |
avanti Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:20:21pm |
re: #43 albusteve
others say it isn't, I guess it depends on your interpretation of Constitutional law, but that's what courts are for...Frum is just another influential lawyer and writer
The courts ruled on that back it the 30's, read the link.
| 50 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:22:58pm |
re: #49 avanti
The courts ruled on that back it the 30's, read the link.
It's never going to make it to the supreme court. They might get some activist judge in the lower court to rule in their favor but it's just going to get overturned. They are just going to waste a lot of money (theirs and ours) trying to fight this in the courts. A waste of time and money.
| 51 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:24:03pm |
re: #46 Obdicut
Do you think Snowe and Collins are going to be forced out of the party, or are they safe due to their huge support in their state? I don't think that either could be challenged successfully in a primary, but that's not the only way to force someone out of the party.
The far right of the GOP (which is pretty much the whole GOP) has their sights aimed at Snowe and Collins. Yeah, I think they're going to be forced out, just like Dede Scozzafava. The pack smells blood, and they're not going to stop until they destroy any remaining moderate Republicans.
There aren't many, so it won't take long.
| 52 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:24:08pm |
re: #39 acacia
Hrmm; if yo'ure calling it "Obamacare", its probably a hint that your mind was made up in about March, 2009.
(PS hi again people, back from Christmas! Did Charles ever get over the Science Tyrants?)
| 53 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:25:31pm |
re: #51 Charles
can a right Republican win those seats, if they force Snowe and Collins out in the primary? Or is this another one of those ny-23 deals?
| 54 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:26:23pm |
re: #49 avanti
The courts ruled on that back it the 30's, read the link.
heh...I didn't realize the title was a link, I thought is was just a HA blub...duh!
| 55 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:29:16pm |
re: #53 windsagio
They'll probably do it with third party spoilers like the did in NY. It's an easy trick, doesn't take much money and it works.
| 56 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:30:05pm |
re: #51 Charles
Ugh. I spoke too soon about her not being vulnerable to a primary challenge:
Snowe's popularity with Republicans dropping
Such a waste. I really thought she'd wind up president, or at least hugely important to the GOP. Imagine if she was in place instead of Michael Steele, what a difference that would be.
| 57 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:30:31pm |
re: #53 windsagio
can a right Republican win those seats, if they force Snowe and Collins out in the primary? Or is this another one of those ny-23 deals?
It's doubtful that a tea party candidate can win in Maine, but that's not even an issue for those people. It's all about purging, not winning. They've got to drive out the unfaithful monkeys, even if it means losing an election.
NY-23 was just the beginning of this process -- it's going to get a lot uglier.
| 58 |
Stuart Leviton Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:30:40pm |
re: #32 Killgore Trout
Sadly nobody is proposing a decent energy policy. The Republicans are mow friendly to nuclear energy but I don't think they're serious about weaning us off oil. The Dems are certainly more environmentally concerned but don't look seriously enough at natural gas and nuclear. I'm pretty sure that nothing is going to be done until it's far too late.
Thank God the Iranians are looking at nuclear.
| 59 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:32:11pm |
re: #53 windsagio
can a right Republican win those seats, if they force Snowe and Collins out in the primary? Or is this another one of those ny-23 deals?
I doubt it. Much of the GOP is determined to self-destruct in these situations where they should be thinking about attracting the moderates and the independents.
| 60 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:33:41pm |
| 61 |
Taqyia2Me Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:34:49pm |
Luk 2:9 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with fear.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy that will be for all the people.
Luk 2:11 "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 "And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger."
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
Luk 2:14 "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!" [fn]
[Link: www.blueletterbible.org...]
Fear not!
| 62 |
Summer Seale Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:35:02pm |
re: #57 Charles
It's doubtful that a tea party candidate can win in Maine, but that's not even an issue for those people. It's all about purging, not winning. They've got to drive out the unfaithful monkeys, even if it means losing an election.
NY-23 was just the beginning of this process -- it's going to get a lot uglier.
I agree.
After all, if anyone has been reading the right wing blogs over the last year, "Lock and load" has literally become a "political" rallying cry spouted by these people. They have been touting it as some form or legitimate political expression in a debate: kill the "other side".
| 63 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:35:21pm |
re: #59 Walter L. Newton
I doubt it. Much of the GOP is determined to self-destruct in these situations where they should be thinking about attracting the moderates and the independents.
which is a vast pool of voters and even more that don't vote...too bad how a minority of people pound the pavement in their interests while the rest are watching Am Idol...'ya get out of it what ya put into it' comes to mind
| 64 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:35:36pm |
re: #52 windsagio
Frum's article - at least the link provided - referred to it as Obamacare. Also, I agree that it's more likely than not going to be found Constitutional. I just disagree with Frum's reasoning.
| 65 |
Stuart Leviton Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:35:39pm |
re: #48 Olsonist
If you are making an economic argument, then it's too late.
If you are making an environmental argument, then it's probably too late.
And you're probably being optimistic.
| 66 |
jaunte Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:36:53pm |
re: #61 Taqyia2Me
Fear not? What kind of talk is that?
Image: piercethegloom.jpg
| 67 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:37:44pm |
re: #54 albusteve
I don't see the link. Can you direct me to it or post again.
| 68 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:39:05pm |
re: #67 acacia
I don't see the link. Can you direct me to it or post again.
it's the red title at the top of the Hot Air link posted upthread...stupidly I missed it
| 70 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:40:23pm |
re: #60 windsagio
Ugh, not much hope on that front. Wheres the 1964-style rebuilding plan?
The post-1964 rebuilding plan involved running a much more liberal Republican than the current GOP would ever ever accept again. Hell, Mitt Romney might be too liberal for the Republicans in a few years.
Basically the GOP nomination will be given to who can waterboard a confession out of someone the quickest.
| 71 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:42:23pm |
re: #70 metrolibertarian
The post-1964 rebuilding plan involved running a much more liberal Republican than the current GOP would ever ever accept again. Hell, Mitt Romney might be too liberal for the Republicans in a few years.
Basically the GOP nomination will be given to who can waterboard a confession out of someone the quickest.
if their jobs were not so lucrative, there is no doubt in my mind Beck or O'Riley would run for office
| 72 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:42:57pm |
re: #70 metrolibertarian
The post-1964 rebuilding plan involved running a much more liberal Republican than the current GOP would ever ever accept again. Hell, Mitt Romney might be too liberal for the Republicans in a few years.
Basically the GOP nomination will be given to who can waterboard a confession out of someone the quickest.
Mitt Romney was always in doubt as to what he really believed. But yes, the pendulum does appear to be swinging.
| 73 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:46:28pm |
re: #72 Bagua
slight topic shift, but I think we're at least 40 years away from electing a Mormon President. (of course they thought that about Kennedy too, but still)
re: #71 albusteve
Beck/O'Riley would get brutalized.
Altho', its kinda fun game, playing the 'if the primary didn't exist, is there any Republican that could possibly win the center?' game.
| 74 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:50:19pm |
re: #73 windsagio
slight topic shift, but I think we're at least 40 years away from electing a Mormon President. (of course they thought that about Kennedy too, but still)
re: #71 albusteve
Beck/O'Riley would get brutalized.
Altho', its kinda fun game, playing the 'if the primary didn't exist, is there any Republican that could possibly win the center?' game.
brutalized by the left...to the right they walk on water...and no I do not see a candidate who can win the center and I don't believe the GOP wants one that could
| 75 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:50:30pm |
re: #68 albusteve
Thanks. I see now that Frum's article was much more complete than what I first thought. His Medicare argument is still irrelevant but he IS relying on the "general welfare" clause to argue that it is constitutional. The case he cites upholds the social security system. The only caution I would have is that Medicare, Social Security etc. are simply government subsidies paid by government imposed taxes. The wrinkle here, ironically, is not the power of the government to provide for a complete taxpayer funded health care system but rather the much less ambitious plan of requiring individuals to purchase private health care. States have used similar "general welfare" clauses in their constitutions to impose all sorts of things on individuals. I suspect that if challenged the Supreme Court would rule similarly and say that the clause is a broad grant of power that covers this.
| 76 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:52:55pm |
re: #51 Charles
The far right of the GOP (which is pretty much the whole GOP) has their sights aimed at Snowe and Collins. Yeah, I think they're going to be forced out, just like Dede Scozzafava. The pack smells blood, and they're not going to stop until they destroy any remaining moderate Republicans.
There aren't many, so it won't take long.
Dehumanizing and eviscerating one's political opponents seems par for the course in US politics these days.
| 77 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:53:29pm |
re: #73 windsagio
slight topic shift, but I think we're at least 40 years away from electing a Mormon President. (of course they thought that about Kennedy too, but still)
Agreed. The same appears true about a female vice-president, but the American voters did prove that race is not an issue with the majority, so one hopes the other types of bigotry will also fade from significance.
| 78 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:54:13pm |
re: #75 acacia
Thanks. I see now that Frum's article was much more complete than what I first thought. His Medicare argument is still irrelevant but he IS relying on the "general welfare" clause to argue that it is constitutional. The case he cites upholds the social security system. The only caution I would have is that Medicare, Social Security etc. are simply government subsidies paid by government imposed taxes. The wrinkle here, ironically, is not the power of the government to provide for a complete taxpayer funded health care system but rather the much less ambitious plan of requiring individuals to purchase private health care. States have used similar "general welfare" clauses in their constitutions to impose all sorts of things on individuals. I suspect that if challenged the Supreme Court would rule similarly and say that the clause is a broad grant of power that covers this.
and imposing fines as punishment if you choose not to by...this is unprecedented at the federal level
| 80 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:57:22pm |
re: #78 albusteve
Unprecedented? Yes. Unconstitutional? I doubt it but it raises an interesting issue.
| 81 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:57:42pm |
re: #74 albusteve
'brutalized' in the sense that they'll take a terriffic beating, and lose handily.
re: #77 Bagua
Agreed. The same appears true about a female vice-president,
Please tell me this doesn't mean what I think it will.
re: #78 albusteve
I was gonna say 'Drivers liability insurance!' but then I saw you put 'federal' in there ;) Theres a big irony here in that it seems like in trying to make a compromise that people would like, the Congressional left has made the complaints worse (If the commentary from the right leaning people on LGF is any viable judge)
| 82 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 6:58:07pm |
re: #78 albusteve
and yes, the USSC can rule however their vote goes...Kelso proved they simply do what they want with the Constitution
| 83 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:01:22pm |
re: #81 windsagio
'brutalized' in the sense that they'll take a terriffic beating, and lose handily.
re: #77 Bagua
Please tell me this doesn't mean what I think it will.
re: #78 albusteve
I was gonna say 'Drivers liability insurance!' but then I saw you put 'federal' in there ;) Theres a big irony here in that it seems like in trying to make a compromise that people would like, the Congressional left has made the complaints worse (If the commentary from the right leaning people on LGF is any viable judge)
regardless of the Constitutional question, the HC bill still sucks...KILL BILL!
| 84 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:01:29pm |
The tobacco and energy industry astroturf group Americans for Prosperity is pulling out all the stops, spending big bucks on Google ads to defeat health care reform. I'm blocking their URLs as I find them.
| 85 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:02:24pm |
re: #79 Olsonist
Twer ever thus.
I wonder whether there are limits to how much barbarism the system can withstand.
| 86 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:03:18pm |
Ok... BB later (again)... Just finished watching "Reefer Madness - The Movie Musical" with the step-critters... I don't like the movie, to over produced... I suspect the stage show was more minimal, like Urinetown... which would work... music all over the place, and it's suppose to be 1930's... no musical motif. Grade C-.
Now going to watch Charles Laughton in "The Hunchback of Notre Dame." Step-critters never seen that, both are "Hunchback" fans.
Later.
| 87 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:04:29pm |
re: #84 Charles
The tobacco and energy industry astroturf group Americans for Prosperity is pulling out all the stops, spending big bucks on Google ads to defeat health care reform. I'm blocking their URLs as I find them.
I was about to ask what Americans for Serfdom want, but then I realized they're the same group...
| 88 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:06:02pm |
re: #86 Walter L. Newton
Ok... BB later (again)... Just finished watching "Reefer Madness - The Movie Musical" with the step-critters... I don't like the movie, to over produced... I suspect the stage show was more minimal, like Urinetown... which would work... music all over the place, and it's suppose to be 1930's... no musical motif. Grade C-.
Now going to watch Charles Laughton in "The Hunchback of Notre Dame." Step-critters never seen that, both are "Hunchback" fans.
Later.
"I can fix that hump"
"what hump?"
| 89 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:06:35pm |
re: #81 windsagio
Auto insurance comparisons are also red herrings not just because they are state laws. Since no one is forced to drive a car, no one is forced to purchase auto insurance. Here, everyone will be required to have or purchase health insurance. You won't have a choice in how (or whether) to fund your health care. This is an interesting issue because it has never been faced before.
| 90 |
Gus Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:06:41pm |
re: #31 Charles
David Frum writes a column pointing out that the Senate health care reform plan is indeed constitutional (which it is), and gets treated to a barrage of hatred at Hot Air:
[Link: hotair.com...]
Here's a recent comment from Hot Air:
id lve to see this guys head sawed off by al qaida.
moonbatkiller on December 26, 2009 at 9:59 PM
Rather ignorant bunch they have there.
| 91 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:07:25pm |
re: #82 albusteve
and yes, the USSC can rule however their vote goes...Kelso proved they simply do what they want with the Constitution
I think that's a dangerous frame of mind. So in your world the constitution no longer applies and the Supreme Court are evil anti-American agents of some sort. Shall we overthrow the supreme court? Just run them out along with 200 years of decisions and start over? Who's going to select the new Supremes? Is there a constitutional provision for doing this?
The machinery of our country is not perfect but I really don't think it's reasonable to dissolve the Supreme Court.
| 92 |
Obdicut Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:07:29pm |
re: #89 acacia
Except for Medicare, of course. Which was the point made in the article.
| 93 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:08:43pm |
re: #85 Spare O'Lake
I wonder whether there are limits to how much barbarism the system can withstand.
political dysfunction everywhere these days...I'd hate to see a one party monopoly
| 94 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:10:12pm |
re: #90 Gus 802
Rather ignorant bunch they have there.
Those are the kinds of people who have been blocked from LGF, and who are now screaming about "censorship" and claiming they were banned just for "disagreeing" with me.
| 95 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:12:37pm |
re: #91 Killgore Trout
I think that's a dangerous frame of mind. So in your world the constitution no longer applies and the Supreme Court are evil anti-American agents of some sort. Shall we overthrow the supreme court? Just run them out along with 200 years of decisions and start over? Who's going to select the new Supremes? Is there a constitutional provision for doing this?
The machinery of our country is not perfect but I really don't think it's reasonable to dissolve the Supreme Court.
where did I suggest dissolving the Supremes?...they are capable of making bad judgements imo...there is nothing dangerous with my frame of mind...the USSC interprets the law, somebody has to...they are not evil, just wrong about Kelso imo
| 96 |
Stuart Leviton Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:15:16pm |
Mr Schuringa, who had burns to one of his hands, added: "A fire started under his seat. I was calling for water, water. But then the fire was getting a little worse. So I grabbed the suspect out of the seat, because, if there was any more explosives on him, that would have been very dangerous. And then the flight attendants came. We took him to first class and stripped him to make sure he had no more weapons on him. "It was very quick. Everyone was panicking," he said of the scene on the descending aircraft.
source The Independent (U.K>)
Interesting article. I admire the journalist(s) who crafted that article.
| 97 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:15:33pm |
| 98 |
Gus Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:15:47pm |
re: #94 Charles
Those are the kinds of people that have been blocked from LGF, who are now screaming about "censorship" and claiming they were banned just for "disagreeing" with me.
We know better of course.
Ed Morrissey (at Hot Air) and Andrew Breitbart have went as far as posting a video on how to make a binary explosive device. It's in the context of the recent Flight 253 bombing attempt but it's highly irresponsible in light of the unstable characters that frequent those sites.
| 99 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:17:43pm |
re: #97 Bagua
Meaning?
fine;
please tell me that you don't think McCain/Palin lost because people were unwilling to vote for a woman for VP.
| 100 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:18:18pm |
re: #95 albusteve
They also aren't going to overturn healtchare reform, or Roe v Wade, social security, red light cameras, or aloow creationism is schools. I don't always agree with them either but they are the guardians of the constitution. I think it's wrong to say that they don't care about the constitution and cling to a personal interpretation. That's why the Paulians and Tea Parties are calling for a "refounding" of the country. They hate what it is and, despite the rhetoric, they hate the founding father's vision and the constitution.
| 103 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:19:08pm |
re: #98 Gus 802
takes me back! When I was in HS, everyone I knew had a copy of the Anarchists' Cookbook.
I agree tho', posting something like that is asking for trouble, or at least criticism. Of course they seem to not care what anyone outside the circle is saying, so...
| 104 |
Charles Johnson Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:19:35pm |
| 105 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:19:50pm |
re: #99 windsagio
fine;
please tell me that you don't think McCain/Palin lost because people were unwilling to vote for a woman for VP.
Yes, I believe that that was certainly a factor, possibly enough to sway the election as it was so close, but certainly not provable either way.
| 106 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:20:22pm |
| 108 |
Gus Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:21:11pm |
re: #103 windsagio
takes me back! When I was in HS, everyone I knew had a copy of the Anarchists' Cookbook.
I agree tho', posting something like that is asking for trouble, or at least criticism. Of course they seem to not care what anyone outside the circle is saying, so...
Yeah, we all have access to the methods whether it was the Anarchist's Cookbook or whatever is available on line but their a certain principle behind not providing access to it in such a manner.
| 109 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:22:25pm |
re: #100 Killgore Trout
They also aren't going to overturn healtchare reform, or Roe v Wade, social security, red light cameras, or aloow creationism is schools. I don't always agree with them either but they are the guardians of the constitution. I think it's wrong to say that they don't care about the constitution and cling to a personal interpretation. That's why the Paulians and Tea Parties are calling for a "refounding" of the country. They hate what it is and, despite the rhetoric, they hate the founding father's vision and the constitution.
I said their vote is the law...not that they disregard the Constitution, that they interpret it...nowhere did I say the Supremes "don't care about the Constitution" or even imply it
| 110 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:23:41pm |
re: #108 Gus 802
Oh, I agree, just random flashback. You wonder how the lines of liability go in something like that.
| 111 |
Stuart Leviton Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:24:31pm |
OT:
"Al-Qa'ida is finding it difficult to recruit young people," she said. "And, interestingly, the election of Barack Obama is a factor in that, because, whatever you think of him as a president, the fact of him shows young people that there is an alternative to killing yourself. Al-Qa'ida is, however, targeting more highly skilled people."
| 112 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:26:23pm |
Here's an interesting link with a constitutional analysis focused not on the individual mandate but on the requirement that health insurance companies accept certain risks. [Link: www.pointoflaw.com...]
This article, which appears well researched, concludes that regardless of Article I authority, the bill may violate the Fifth Amendment "takings" provisions. If nothing else, an interesting take that I hadn't focused on before.
| 113 |
Gus Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:26:47pm |
re: #110 windsagio
Oh, I agree, just random flashback. You wonder how the lines of liability go in something like that.
Don't know. Maybe none because they're not the authors? I noticed the direct link brings you to a "you must be 18 to view this video" question to proceed. Morrissey doesn't provide that at Hot Air and neither does Breibart. I know that's just a formality but it does bring up question regarding exposure of said material to minors.
| 114 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:29:27pm |
re: #112 acacia
from your link...and thanks
There are at this point enormous uncertainties about how this entire scheme will play out. My view is that it will prove ruinous on all three fronts. The general public tax increases will be so sharp that it is unlikely that they will generate additional revenues. The subsidies will be so large that the demand for medical services will be left largely unsatisfied, so two consequences are likely. First, an increased queuing for various health care services is to be expected. Second, there will be increased pressure to exclude large groups of people from the system, on the lines of Massachusetts's recent decision to cut from its system 31,000 legal immigrant aliens (who pay taxes but do not vote).
| 115 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:29:45pm |
re: #111 Stuart Leviton
Yes, whatever his domestic problems, our President does appear popular with certain foreigners. I expect America will see some sort of goodwill dividend?
However the attempted terrorist attack that just failed proves they are in fact finding enough would be mass murderers to recruit. There also appears to be no shortage in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
| 116 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:31:33pm |
re: #115 Bagua
Yes, whatever his domestic problems, our President does appear popular with certain foreigners. I expect America will see some sort of goodwill dividend?
However the attempted terrorist attack that just failed proves they are in fact finding enough would be mass murderers to recruit. There also appears to be no shortage in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
that's to be expected...surprisingly BO is kicking AQ/Taliban ass pretty good right now
| 117 |
metrolibertarian Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:33:02pm |
re: #116 albusteve
that's to be expected...surprisingly BO is kicking AQ/Taliban ass pretty good right now
I wouldn't say surprisingly as he was to McCain's "right" on the issue of Afghanistan and Pakistan during the campaign.
| 118 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:35:28pm |
re: #116 albusteve
that's to be expected...surprisingly BO is kicking AQ/Taliban ass pretty good right now
Agreed. No one can say he is running from the fight. The real test is coming with Pakistan and Iran. Will President Obama push this thing to whatever success is defined as?
What exactly is "success" in that war?
| 119 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:35:49pm |
re: #112 acacia
Richard Epstein
Another libertarian nutcase. Very popular on Ron Paul forums. Also popular with the neoNazis and racists for his arguments against racial discrimination laws.
| 120 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:36:42pm |
re: #118 Bagua
Equating Iran with Pakistan, or either with Afghanistan, would be a tragic, devastating mistake.
| 121 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:37:32pm |
re: #117 metrolibertarian
I wouldn't say surprisingly as he was to McCain's "right" on the issue of Afghanistan and Pakistan during the campaign.
maybe, I don't care about that...I'm thinking of his continued resistance to the Iraqi Surge right on through his campaign, even tho long before that it was an obvious success...I do not trust BOs words one bit....I want to see behavior and I'm surprised he's taking it to the terrorists at the moment
| 122 |
wun wabbit wun Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:38:43pm |
man I don't recognize this blog anymore...
| 123 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:38:44pm |
re: #120 windsagio
Equating Iran with Pakistan, or either with Afghanistan, would be a tragic, devastating mistake.
How so?
| 124 |
What, me worry? Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:40:27pm |
re: #111 Stuart Leviton
OT:
I wonder if being so well connected had anything to do with getting him through security.
| 125 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:40:35pm |
re: #119 Killgore Trout
Interesting...thanks. I really know absolutely nothing about him. His argument makes sense though. Like I was taught in Logic class, Hitler would not have been wrong - just because he's Hitler - to say the sun rises in the east, and Mother Theresa would not be right - just because she's Mother Theresa - to say it rises in the west.
| 126 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:41:32pm |
re: #122 wun wabbit wun
man I don't recognize this blog anymore...
we all did a make up redo...like it?
| 127 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:41:46pm |
re: #122 wun wabbit wun
Life is full of change. You can join the chat or not, choice is yours.
| 128 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:44:37pm |
re: #123 Bagua
because the situations are completely different?
Pakistan is essentially a secular nation, and their primary concern is fighting their own provincial rebels. They're more than capable of doing this, and mainly run into trouble due to the pressures we put on them to close their border. Its also different due to India and Nukes.
Iran is a Shi'ite state (ie nothing to do with Al Qaeda or any recent terrorism vs. the west) on the edge of a social revolution. They're more concerned in keeping control right now, and the only thing we can do there is become a boogyman to scare the populace into shape.
Afghanistan we know all about, and is essentially a series of small fiefdoms (that part is essential, btw) we're trying to keep out of control of Extremist Sunni factions.
Pakistan and Iran can be basicly fine on their own, and even then what we DO do to interact with them have to be far different.
| 129 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:46:30pm |
take a tumbler and put 4 ice cubes in it...fill about half way with Merlo, toss in a shot of vodka, and top it off with a bit of orange juice...mmmm...I call it a Purple People Eater
| 130 |
acacia Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:47:22pm |
re: #119 Killgore Trout
Just read the Wikipedia link. He actually sounds like a very distinguished legal theorist. He's apparently a libertarian but that doesn't mean he isn't well educated, analytical, sharp, etc. In fact his pedigree suggests he is. I don't see anything inherently wrong with identifying oneself as Libertarian.
| 131 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:47:48pm |
re: #129 albusteve
Dude, I"m sorry, I tried to resist.
Unless its some liquer I'm not familiar with, do you mean 'merlot'?
| 132 |
Elle Plater Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:50:39pm |
Tim Flannery one of Australians most repected scientists and climate activists on (Australian) ABC lateline
These people work with models, computer modelling, when the computer modelling and the real world data disagrees you have a problem, that's when science gets engaged. What Kevin Trenberth, one of the most respected climate scientist in the world, is saying is, "We have to get on our horses and find out what we don't know about the system, we have to understand why the cooling is occurring, because the current modelling doesn't reflect it". And that's the way science progresses, we can't pretend to have perfect knowledge, we don't. We have to go forward and formulate policy on the basis of what we know now.
That doesn't sound much like the models are accurate.
| 133 |
Dancing along the light of day Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:50:45pm |
re: #122 wun wabbit wun
man I don't recognize this blog anymore...
Is that a good thing, or a bad thing?
| 134 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:51:37pm |
re: #131 windsagio
Dude, I"m sorry, I tried to resist.
Unless its some liquer I'm not familiar with, do you mean 'merlot'?
whoops, yes, plain old merlot...good thing it wasn't savin yon
| 135 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:52:58pm |
re: #130 acacia
I have no doubt the dude is wicked smart. Ron Paul is probably very smart as well, but these people are loons. There's a difference between crazy and stupid. Glenn Beck and Palin fall into the stupid category. There's nothing even wrong with libertarian philosophy but it has unfortunately been hijacked for the past 60 years or so by lunatics. Richard Epstein is probably very smart but his interpretation is whacked and the guardians of our constitutional will probably never agree with his wacky interpretation no matter how well reasoned it might seem to you or I. He's a very smart lunatic but he's still pissing in the wind.
| 136 |
wun wabbit wun Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:54:10pm |
#131
Tried to resist but did you mean LIQUEUR????
| 137 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:55:12pm |
| 138 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:57:41pm |
re: #128 windsagio
because the situations are completely different?
Yes of course they are all very different, it was the detail below I was after.
Pakistan is essentially a secular nation, and their primary concern is fighting their own provincial rebels. They're more than capable of doing this, and mainly run into trouble due to the pressures we put on them to close their border. Its also different due to India and Nukes.
If they are capable or not has yet to be demonstrated. There are ongoing terrorist attacks within Pakistan itself, the lawless tribal region has never been under the control of the government or anyone else.
Iran is a Shi'ite state (ie nothing to do with Al Qaeda or any recent terrorism vs. the west) on the edge of a social revolution. They're more concerned in keeping control right now, and the only thing we can do there is become a boogyman to scare the populace into shape.
Iran is likely implicated in the stepped up attacks in Afghanistan, and you seem to be forgetting the whole nuclear bomb issue. There is another deadline due on that I believe.
Afghanistan we know all about, and is essentially a series of small fiefdoms (that part is essential, btw) we're trying to keep out of control of Extremist Sunni factions.
I doubt very much most of us “know all about Afghanistan” or even know much about the groups we are dealing with.
Pakistan and Iran can be basicly fine on their own, and even then what we DO do to interact with them have to be far different.
Pakistan is going to hell in a hand basket and appears on the brink of collapse. The tribal regions are an enormous problem and there will be no calm in Afghanistan while the tribal areas remain lawless.
Iran is the major threat to world peace at this time. How Obama deals with Iran will likely define his presidency, just as the Iranian revolution defined Jimmy Carters.
| 139 |
prairiefire Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:58:20pm |
re: #118 Bagua
Agreed. No one can say he is running from the fight. The real test is coming with Pakistan and Iran. Will President Obama push this thing to whatever success is defined as?
What exactly is "success" in that war?
Do you mean in a future war with Pakistan or Iran? Right now, I think it is a game of "whack~a~mole" against jihadist agitators based on intelligence. The recent strikes on Yemen, and hopefully other actions being taken that we don't even know about.
Here's a thought~what if Obama gets Bin Laden?
| 140 |
prairiefire Sat, Dec 26, 2009 7:59:37pm |
| 141 |
prairiefire Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:00:27pm |
re: #129 albusteve
take a tumbler and put 4 ice cubes in it...fill about half way with Merlo, toss in a shot of vodka, and top it off with a bit of orange juice...mmm...I call it a Purple People Eater
OMG. that would turn me purple and eat my liver.
| 142 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:00:44pm |
re: #136 wun wabbit wun
#131
Tried to resist but did you mean LIQUEUR???
Tried to resist but did you mean LIQUOR?
| 143 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:01:22pm |
re: #139 prairiefire
Do you mean in a future war with Pakistan or Iran? Right now, I think it is a game of "whack~a~mole" against jihadist agitators based on intelligence. The recent strikes on Yemen, and hopefully other actions being taken that we don't even know about.
Here's a thought~what if Obama gets Bin Laden?
how's he gonna do that exactly?...if Bin Laden should somehow fall into the lap of US security people somewhere, then BO takes the credit?...don't think so, even tho he would...is he actively pursuing Bin Laden?
| 144 |
wun wabbit wun Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:02:17pm |
nope....
re: #129 albusteve
Dude, I"m sorry, I tried to resist.
Unless its some liquer I'm not familiar with, do you mean 'merlot'?
| 145 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:02:29pm |
re: #141 prairiefire
OMG. that would turn me purple and eat my liver.
it's yummy...forget your troubles and liver it up!
| 146 |
What, me worry? Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:04:14pm |
Just mix it and drink! Sounds dee-lish.
| 147 |
prairiefire Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:04:55pm |
re: #143 albusteve
I do think that Pres. Obama likes big challenges and big trophies. I think that he would take the credit if he gave the order to kill Bin Laden.
As far as actually knowing Obama's thoughts, I don't.
| 148 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:08:09pm |
re: #139 prairiefire
Do you mean in a future war with Pakistan or Iran? Right now, I think it is a game of "whack~a~mole" against jihadist agitators based on intelligence. The recent strikes on Yemen, and hopefully other actions being taken that we don't even know about.
Here's a thought~what if Obama gets Bin Laden?
Agreed, we are just playing a body count game at the moment, no end game in sight. This will escalate, as will the US and UK casualties, and there will be the little issue of the tribal regions in Pakistan, unless Pakistan collapses on its own, which is possible.
As to Iran, a whole different situation. Will they be permitted to go nuclear or not? What about their support for terrorists attacking the US and UK in Iraq and now Iran? (I suppose Iraq is now forgotten). What about their support for Hezballah and Hamas? What will Israel do?
All of these are current crises or likely escalations during the Obama presidency.
| 149 |
prairiefire Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:12:35pm |
re: #148 Bagua
Thanks for your reply. Those are all solid points. I don't think that Iraq is forgotten now. I'm concerned about Iran co-opting Maliki's government. I believe there is a great yearning for more freedom in Iran. The younger generation seems to be moving in a more secular direction.
| 150 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:16:22pm |
re: #149 prairiefire
Yes, there is a great deal that can still go wrong in Iraq, especially while Iran remains free to meddle. Iran has proven it wants influence over the whole region, right to the Mediterranean. They will certainly focus as much attention as they can on their direct neighbors. Any void the the US creates will find Iran anxious to fill.
| 151 |
ryannon Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:16:32pm |
re: #95 albusteve
where did I suggest dissolving the Supremes?...they are capable of making bad judgements imo...there is nothing dangerous with my frame of mind...the USSC interprets the law, somebody has to...they are not evil, just wrong about Kelso imo
Gasp! Even if it can no longer be done, the idea is totally unacceptable:
| 152 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:18:21pm |
re: #151 ryannon
Gasp! Even if it can no longer be done, the idea is totally unacceptable:
[Video]
I knew that was coming...but it's a trip down memory lane....thanks
| 153 |
What, me worry? Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:18:52pm |
Here's an interesting article about the no fly list issue in the NYT:
The suspect’s name was inserted last month into the Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment, or Tide. About 550,000 individuals are registered in the database. A subset of that is the Terrorist Screening Data Base, or T.S.D.B., which has about 400,000.
By contrast, fewer than 4,000 names from the T.S.D.B. are on the “no-fly” list, and an additional 14,000 on a “selectee” list that calls for mandatory secondary screening, an Obama administration official said. At the time Mr. Abdulmutallab’s name was recorded in the Tide database in November, the official said, “there was insufficient derogatory information available” to warrant putting him in the T.S.D.B., no-fly or selectee lists, and so he was not on any watch list when he boarded the plane bound for Detroit.
| 154 |
albusteve Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:19:19pm |
re: #146 marjoriemoon
Just mix it and drink! Sounds dee-lish.
they really taste good after the second one...third...etc
| 155 |
prairiefire Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:19:32pm |
re: #150 Bagua
You are correct. Iran has also proved itself completely ruthless at oppressing dissent. I think they have been studying the Chinese model.
| 156 |
ryannon Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:24:05pm |
re: #142 Bagua
Tried to resist but did you mean LIQUOR?
Tried to resist, but did you mean LICK HER?
/oy vey
| 157 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:24:28pm |
re: #155 prairiefire
You are correct. Iran has also proved itself completely ruthless at oppressing dissent. I think they have been studying the Chinese model.
So what will the President do? My guess is that he will continue to play cat and mouse, and hope and pray Iran doesn't go full nuclear during his first term. It looks like Israel alone will make this decision for him.
| 158 |
prairiefire Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:31:39pm |
re: #157 Bagua
Hmmmm......
My hope for him is that he will find a more aggressive way to circumvent Iran without destabilizing the whole region, leading to Americans paying $10.00 a gallon for gas.
Geez, this is why I like to vote for people who I believe are more intelligent than I am.
| 159 |
prairiefire Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:33:01pm |
Great conversation. Time to turn in and turn off the computer. Night, lizards.
| 160 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:33:36pm |
I have to admit, its bad form for me to post something like that and then get distracted playing Rock Band. I do apologize! I'll try to read all the responses and come up with a coherent reply. It might be tough tho' >>
As to liquier or whatever, well zinged!
| 161 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:33:42pm |
re: #158 prairiefire
Yep, I reckon we will be doing a lot of hoping. I too hope he will do the right thing with Iran.
Goodnight to you, thanks for the chat.
| 162 |
Bagua Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:35:11pm |
re: #160 windsagio
No problem windsagio, it led to an interesting discussion. I'm that region will be on the table from time to time in the coming months, barring rapture and such.
| 163 |
windsagio Sat, Dec 26, 2009 8:40:40pm |
ok; briefly.
From my news sources (the BBC primarily) the situation in Pakistan isn't nearly as bad as you seem to think. Theres really no threat in the core of the country, just a in the more far-flung provinces. The country isn't on the verge of collapse by any means, and my memory is telling me that a major cause of real internal strife is them mobilizing on our behalf.
As to Iran, we've had this fight before. Whether Iran collapse in the next few years or not, its' a Regional threat, not a Global threat. Except for the normal non-proliferation efforts, its not really anything the US can deal with. Imo, leave it to Turkey and Israel, they'll keep things in hand.
~I know there was other stuff in there, but I plead fatigue!
PS: Updinged for rapture reference, made me smile :)
| 164 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Sun, Dec 27, 2009 12:21:17am |
Yeah, yeah, but is it going to rain during my funeral?
Whats that?
You don't know?
Hah!
So much for your silly and feeble climate "predictions!"
///
| 165 |
b_snark Mon, Dec 28, 2009 8:12:03am |
re: #30 acacia
Alright tell me how that is going to happen, how do we know the proposed action will actually reduce emissions, how much of it needs to happen, what are the various costs of emission reductions, how the costs - which necessarily reduce funding of other beneficial programs - will affect others, what will happen given various reduction goals, what are those benefits compared to the risks of not taking any particular action. If you can answer those questions with accuracy you will be the first and even if you can, that is only the beginning of the issue because after gaining that knowledge people get to choose how they want their money spent. Maybe, if the people are convinced that it is more beneficial to do something, the people will want to spend their limited resources on other methods to reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere such as reflectivity solutions, greater absorption methods and the thousands of other ideas that are out there. We haven't even begun to look at this issue critically.
In other words; until we consider your objections to your satisfaction we should do nothing.
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