Pseudo-Science for the Whole Family

Religion • Views: 3,307

Fort Wayne’s Journal Gazette has a report on some home-schoolers teaching their children to reject modern science.

Part of the reason the Neffs opted for home schooling was scheduling. Mark Neff, Jennifer’s husband, works second shift, and if his children attended a traditional school, he’d never see them, she says.

Plus, she says, Neff thinks the Bible tells parents to teach their children. She quotes Deuteronomy: “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart. And you shall teach them diligently to your children, and you shall speak of them when you sit at home, and when you walk along the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.”

Louis Griffith, whose wife teaches their three children in their Fort Wayne home, likes that home schooling gives them the option to teach creationism alongside evolution, which also appealed to Cresse.

Teaching a biblical worldview to his children is important to his family, Cresse says. His wife teaches creationism but also teaches evolution, primarily so his children can understand what is being taught to their peers and friends in public schools.

Imagine what kind of “evolution” she’s teaching her kids.

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919 comments
1 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 5:59:03pm

I have some... I think they'd be half-nieces and nephews (moms half-sisters kids) who are being homeschooled in a young-earth creationist household.

I feel so bad for them, at some point they're gonna get out into the world (altho' they're going to church University too) and realize their parents have spent the last 20 years teaching them stupid lies.

2 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 5:59:36pm

"Louis Griffith,"

Sorry I can't see this name without thinking "Wait a minute I thought Family Guy leaned hard left, why would they be in talked about in something involving "Pseudo Science"?

3 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:00:23pm

re: #1 windsagio

I have some... I think they'd be half-nieces and nephews (moms half-sisters kids) who are being homeschooled in a young-earth creationist household.

I feel so bad for them, at some point they're gonna get out into the world (altho' they're going to church University too) and realize their parents have spent the last 20 years teaching them stupid lies.

We can only hope, don't forget there are some people who only end up clinging to their beliefs all the more strongly in the face of evidence against them....

4 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:00:31pm

They're teaching mythology as fact, so of course the kids' science knowledge is going to suck.

5 webevintage  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:02:19pm

Ugh.
People like this make the rest of us look bad.

6 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:02:37pm
Imagine what kind of “evolution” she’s teaching her kids.


Here's a sample from one of the curriculum suppliers:

Dinosaur!

Text: Job 40:15-19; 41:1,14-17; Psalm 104:26

BehemothProps: a picture of a dinosaur, especially Apatasaurus or Kronosaurus; or a plush toy.

Summary: Jesus made the dinosaurs. The Bible speaks of two creatures in particular.

Can you tell me what this picture is? [picture of dinosaur] Have you ever seen a live dinosaur at the zoo? [no] The dinosaurs have all died, or become extinct as far as we know. If you could change the world, would you bring back the dinosaurs? Some movies try to tell us that humans evolved from non-living stuff. That has never been observed. They pretend to make dinosaurs from dead tissue. That has never been done.

God created us in the beginning. In fact, Jesus created all creatures, including the dinosaurs. The Bible speaks of God creating gigantic beasts and huge sea creatures in one of its oldest books, the Book of Job. We know these creatures really lived at one time because we found their fossils. Fossils are what is left in the dirt. The dinosaurs were taken on Noah's ark, but they could not adapt to the new world after the flood. After many years (perhaps a thousand), they all died off. In the last 350 years, almost 400 species of creatures have disappeared. We also know that dinosaurs lived after the flood, because the Book of Job was written after the flood and it describes two creatures in particular.


[Link: www.nwcreation.net...]

7 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:02:57pm

we need to get this kind of thing (home schooling) outlawed

8 captdiggs  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:03:08pm

Ok...I know some here will appreciate this. ;-)

[Link: www.houstonpress.com...]

9 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:03:10pm

re: #4 darthstar

They're teaching mythology as fact, so of course the kids' science knowledge is going to suck.

Forget teaching them about the right facts, if they aren't getting taught critical thinking then they're gonna find it hard to come to a proper conclusion for the rest of their lives...

Honestly schools need to drop one year of "English" in the sense of read books write papers on them, and have a semester that's all about critical thinking and how to properly draw conclusions from given pieces of data....

10 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:04:10pm

personal freedom includes teaching your kids to be idiots...if that's what people want then so be it...if our culture declines because of it (it won't) then so be that too...the end is near anyway, this is trivial in comparison

11 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:04:18pm

re: #8 captdiggs

Ok...I know some here will appreciate this. ;-)

[Link: www.houstonpress.com...]

Not as good as "get a brain morans" but doubtlessly up there....

12 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:04:27pm

I feel for their biology or other science professors in college.

13 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:04:54pm

re: #5 webevintage

Ugh.
People like this make the rest of us look bad.

only if you say so...it has little to do with my looks

14 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:05:00pm

re: #10 albusteve

personal freedom includes teaching your kids to be idiots...if that's what people want then so be it...if our culture declines because of it (it won't) then so be that too...the end is near anyway, this is trivial in comparison

Happy happy joy joy!

15 erraticsphinx  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:05:26pm

re: #12 MandyManners

If they go to college...

16 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:05:32pm

re: #10 albusteve

personal freedom includes teaching your kids to be idiots...if that's what people want then so be it...if our culture declines because of it (it won't) then so be that too...the end is near anyway, this is trivial in comparison

OH NOEZ!!!!!!!!!!!

17 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:06:05pm

re: #10 albusteve

personal freedom includes teaching your kids to be idiots...if that's what people want then so be it...if our culture declines because of it (it won't) then so be that too...the end is near anyway, this is trivial in comparison

What should we be concerned about instead then? What "end" in particular should we be worried about?

There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they Do... Not... Know about it!

18 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:06:41pm

re: #10 albusteve

woah, a bit grim there!

For me, its a less extreme version of people who won't take their kids in to the doctor because of their religion. (Just had one of those end in OR)

Its always funny when you're talking about your right to do massive harm to your children.

19 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:06:47pm

re: #15 erraticsphinx

If they go to college...

I know quite a few kids who were home-schooled and went to college.

20 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:06:55pm

re: #7 SpaceJesus

we need to get this kind of thing (home schooling) outlawed

Big Brother?....let's concentrate on state exams instead...accreditation, that's where the rubber hits the road

21 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:07:32pm

re: #15 erraticsphinx

If they go to college...

And not Bob Jones University or Liberty U or similar, that is.

22 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:07:33pm

re: #18 windsagio

woah, a bit grim there!

For me, its a less extreme version of people who won't take their kids in to the doctor because of their religion. (Just had one of those end in OR)

Its always funny when you're talking about your right to do massive harm to your children.

I accuse my parents!

(Don't recall enough of that MSTK3 episode to make any jokes beyond that)

23 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:07:45pm

"His wife teaches creationism but also teaches evolution, primarily so his children can understand what is being taught to their peers and friends in public schools."

It is important they understand just how depraved the heathens are in their outside school thingamabobs.//

24 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:07:54pm

re: #17 jamesfirecat

What should we be concerned about instead then? What "end" in particular should we be worried about?

There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet, and the only way these people can get on with their happy lives is that they Do... Not... Know about it!

AGW of course

25 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:07:59pm

re: #1 windsagio

I have some... I think they'd be half-nieces and nephews (moms half-sisters kids) who are being homeschooled in a young-earth creationist household.

I feel so bad for them, at some point they're gonna get out into the world (altho' they're going to church University too) and realize their parents have spent the last 20 years teaching them stupid lies.

Which university?

26 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:08:44pm

re: #18 windsagio

woah, a bit grim there!

For me, its a less extreme version of people who won't take their kids in to the doctor because of their religion. (Just had one of those end in OR)

Its always funny when you're talking about your right to do massive harm to your children.

massive harm is subjective....why don't you mind your own business?

27 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:09:46pm

re: #6 jaunte

[Link: www.nwcreation.net...]

*vomits* re: #24 albusteve

AGW of course

aww. I don't know if you're serious or what, but I think humans are a pretty resilient species. I'm not worried.

28 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:09:52pm

oh Lord.. Indiana..
I knew it

29 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:10:00pm

re: #25 MandyManners

Looking it up now, Corban.

30 erraticsphinx  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:10:07pm

re: #19 MandyManners

I do too, but I have to wonder what place will let these people in. Creationism is not looked upon brightly in most reputable schools.

They would probably end up going to one of the colleges where most kids were home schooled.

31 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:10:15pm

re: #19 MandyManners

I know quite a few kids who were home-schooled and went to college.

Me too. But their parents taught them science, algebra, geometry, poetry, literature (classics like Melville, the Brontes, Hawthorne, Whitman, Emerson, Twain, etc.) took them to museums, history...these people sound more like they're just teaching their kids that Jesus will answer their prayers and nothing else matters (though I suspect that's not entirely the case).

32 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:10:48pm

re: #26 albusteve

re: #24 albusteve

*sigh*

33 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:10:56pm

If we need more evidence that the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data', check out the only 2 homeschooled kids I've ever met. They went to my (science-friendly) church. They were 12ish and their parents, in their 50s were sharp. Dad was a chemist or engineer or something, I think with a PhD. Anyhoo, the local schools were subpar, and these ~6th graders were nearly finished with algebra and were studying Latin. On top of that, there's some organization that gets the homeschool kids together several times a week for various reasons, not limited to keeping them from turning into neurotic shut-ins. There was talk of creating a football team to compete with the other highschools.

The thing with homeschool kids is you get a higher average performance, but an enormous spread.

These kids would totally understand my anecdotes=/ data quip, as well as the word quip.

34 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:11:20pm

re: #7 SpaceJesus

No. Throwing out good solid secular home schooling over this would be a terrible mistake.

35 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:11:55pm

re: #29 windsagio

Looking it up now, Corban.

I notice a distinct lack of real science degrees.

36 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:12:10pm

interesting somewhat older article that touches on how conservative homeschoolers are trying to re-imagine american history through a conservative, biblical, and sometimes neo-confederate prism.

[Link: www.harpers.org...]

it's not just science they want to brainwash their kids on.

37 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:12:15pm

re: #33 keloyd

The problem isn't all homeschooling of course, I wonder if the hardcore religious private schools are just as bad.

38 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:12:31pm

re: #30 erraticsphinx

I do too, but I have to wonder what place will let these people in. Creationism is not looked upon brightly in most reputable schools.

They would probably end up going to one of the colleges where most kids were home schooled.

That's not been my experience at all.

39 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:12:35pm

re: #34 Rightwingconspirator

No. Throwing out good solid secular home schooling over this would be a terrible mistake.

that idea is crazier than the thread post...something about baby and bathwater?

40 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:12:52pm

re: #31 darthstar

Me too. But their parents taught them science, algebra, geometry, poetry, literature (classics like Melville, the Brontes, Hawthorne, Whitman, Emerson, Twain, etc.) took them to museums, history...these people sound more like they're just teaching their kids that Jesus will answer their prayers and nothing else matters (though I suspect that's not entirely the case).

I doubt that's the case, too.

41 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:13:12pm

re: #35 MandyManners

yeah, I feel bad for 'em.

Homeschooling has its place (altho even with the meetings, I don't think it socializes kids enough), but not if its for a crazy political or religious reason.

Thats like the guy who had his daughter live with him in the woods for 4 years.

42 sagehen  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:13:18pm
Plus, she says, Neff thinks the Bible tells parents to teach their children. She quotes Deuteronomy: “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart. And you shall teach them diligently to your children, and you shall speak of them when you sit at home, and when you walk along the way, and when you lie down and when you rise up.”

It really takes them all day every day for years on end to teach their children one sentence? Seriously? I guess Jews are just really clever -- we nail it to the door, wear it on a string, and go about our day.

Besides which she's misquoting... unless maybe she's from one of those Christian denominations that uses the Wacky Remix Bible (tm).

43 butterick  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:13:49pm

I'm a little haunted by the cayenne pepper on the table. Is it a disciplinary condiment?

44 erraticsphinx  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:13:59pm

re: #36 SpaceJesus

If you're batshit insane, you're not going to stop with science.

45 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:14:25pm

re: #42 sagehen

Everyone loves the Wacky remix Bible!

46 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:14:29pm

re: #26 albusteve

massive harm is subjective...why don't you mind your own business?

I hate to say it but I think I agree - this American culture of everyone trying to parent everyone else's children needs to stop. It's sad, and I think these parents are putting their kids to a great social and academic disadvantage, but what are you going to do about it?

47 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:14:38pm

re: #31 darthstar

Me too. But their parents taught them science, algebra, geometry, poetry, literature (classics like Melville, the Brontes, Hawthorne, Whitman, Emerson, Twain, etc.) took them to museums, history...these people sound more like they're just teaching their kids that Jesus will answer their prayers and nothing else matters (though I suspect that's not entirely the case).

There's nothing inherently wrong with homeschooling. I know parents who have done it also, and they're like the ones you mention. They also hire outside tutors as necessary for the subjects they're not competent to teach at a high level (usually math and science, but not exclusively), often send their kids to high school for the last two years, and make sure their kids exceed the state standards for the various curricula.

The homeschoolers I have a problem with are the ones who 'homeschool' precisely to circumvent state standards, not augment them. Also homeschooling really does need to be watched more closely generally; there have been far too many cases where a child stops attending school and the parents claim he or she is being 'home schooled', but the kid is no longer receiving any kind of education, and the 'homeschooling' is a lie intended to hide ongoing abuse.

48 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:14:43pm

re: #43 butterick

Instead of a carrot and stick approach, they use the honey and cayenne.

49 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:14:51pm

re: #37 windsagio

The problem isn't all homeschooling of course, I wonder if the hardcore religious private schools are just as bad.

I took a good look at the curriculum at The Kid's conservative, evangelical, Christian school before I applied.

50 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:14:56pm

re: #34 Rightwingconspirator

No. Throwing out good solid secular home schooling over this would be a terrible mistake.


I dont think so, going to a school with other kids your age (be it private or public) is invaluable towards your social development. However, I do think homeschooling should be ok up until either middle or high school I suppose.

51 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:14:58pm

re: #36 SpaceJesus

interesting somewhat older article that touches on how conservative homeschoolers are trying to re-imagine american history through a conservative, biblical, and sometimes neo-confederate prism.

[Link: www.harpers.org...]

it's not just science they want to brainwash their kids on.

You're Stonewall Jackson leaves much to be desired...

"The South shall come again!"
(Apu voice)

Can't remeber exactly how the set up for that Simpsons joke went but I know they did it again later with Disco Stu

"The South Shall Boggie Again!"

52 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:15:09pm

I'm not sure that making it illegal is the answer, however....

...what if there was a sect of parents who believed in homeschooling their kids not only in Creationism, but all other defunct "sciences", including racist dogmas etc, and nothing else? Basically, it's a moral question as a society and not just for the kids.

The fact is, those kids may end up completely useless in society (in the extreme version I'm putting as a hypothetical). We may end up paying for that sort of thing down the road, and not just because of a general brain drain but because they may be entirely useless as adults to function in any suitable way.

My question would be: why should we allow it? If we pay for some things in society to help others (which I'm for to a certain extent), what do we do about entire families who willfully reject society in every way and end up useless to it down the road?

BTW, as much as the Amish communities are entirely creationist, they also happen to produce good products and are self-sufficient, so I wouldn't cite them in my example. Also, (I'm not sure about this) I don't think they take any government money either.

My question is more a hypothetical about the level of useless information we should questionably allow children to learn as a society. After all, we are a society, no matter how much people want to think we're all kings of our own domains. Every one of us has an effect on those people around us and not just in taxes.

Just an interesting thing I thought of just now, I guess. And, for the record, as much as I loathe creationists in general, I am not blind to the fact that they can still be productive members of society on many other levels. =) I'm just asking what the limit is, if any, of all other generally useless knowledge fed to kids at a young age.

53 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:15:41pm

re: #41 windsagio

yeah, I feel bad for 'em.

Homeschooling has its place (altho even with the meetings, I don't think it socializes kids enough), but not if its for a crazy political or religious reason.

Thats like the guy who had his daughter live with him in the woods for 4 years.

As long as kids are not abused or neglected, the parents have the right to raise them as they see fit.

54 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:15:47pm

re: #44 erraticsphinx

If you're batshit insane, you're not going to stop with science.

which many many of them are. they have this siege mentality that the liberal conspiracy is going to take their kids and make them into marxist homosexuals.

55 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:16:08pm

re: #43 butterick

I'm a little haunted by the cayenne pepper on the table. Is it a disciplinary condiment?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

56 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:16:28pm

re: #45 windsagio

Everyone loves the Wacky remix Bible!

Sorry when I hear "Whacky Remix Bible" I think of the Bible sent to Disco Music, or maybe Punk....

57 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:16:31pm

When California imposed forced busing of valley kids to Compton, it got ugly. Lots of people moved. Some home schooled. United Parents Against Forced Busing. UPAB. My very first desperate political action. At 16.

All we wanted to do was take the approved curriculum home to learn. As a personal civil right of parents to have final authority over their childrens education location.

58 SteveC  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:16:49pm

When I worked in small museum here, we had homeschool groups come in to tour. They were either great kids or absolutely horrible - no middle ground. We had one bunch that was all "yes sir, no sir." and had two budding engineers who were *very* interested in how our 150 year old loom functioned.

We had another group who, five minutes into the guided tour, were telling the students that sure, it was OK for them to crawl onto our 50 year old mechanical mule. And the teacher was upset when we reigned them in. "But the children learn best by doing!"

//There are certain rules that ensure decorum and tranquility, lady!

59 freetoken  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:16:51pm

re: #36 SpaceJesus

I was just about to make a comment about that other favorite topic of home-schoolers - history, especially American history.

Over the years I've known a few people who were homeschooling, but not many. In every case it was a highly religious family.

Recently I crossed paths with a young women who was home-schooled, and had "graduated" and now wanted to study art and photography. However, she had real difficulty with the subject because of the nudity that is so common in the field. I could tell she was quite uncomfortable with looking at fine art nudes (not pr0n). Don't know where she will end up, but something will have to give - her adherence to her parents doctrines, or her desire to study photography.

60 Diane  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:17:03pm

re: #1 windsagio

"I feel so bad for them, at some point they're gonna get out into the world (altho' they're going to church University too) and realize their parents have spent the last 20 years teaching them stupid lies."

Yep! Good point. They won't be the first nor the last kids to have been lied to. That is the revenge or the joy as we grow up, we can sort out loudly the facts from the fiction, freely as we please. Thank God, we are not living in a theocracy, imagine.

61 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:17:06pm

re: #46 Vambo

I hate to say it but I think I agree - this American culture of everyone trying to parent everyone else's children needs to stop. It's sad, and I think these parents are putting their kids to a great social and academic disadvantage, but what are you going to do about it?

in this case probably...it does not speak for all homeschooling...just another subject for people to pick on....no big deal

62 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:17:16pm

re: #46 Vambo

I hate to say it but I think I agree - this American culture of everyone trying to parent everyone else's children needs to stop. It's sad, and I think these parents are putting their kids to a great social and academic disadvantage, but what are you going to do about it?

Click our tongues and say what a shame it is and then do nothing else.

It's what Liberals do best!

63 Lidane  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:17:34pm

re: #12 MandyManners

I feel for their biology or other science professors in college.

Not to mention any history and literature professors they might have.

That's my biggest complaint about homeschooling, really. I don't care if you want to teach your kids at home because you think you can do better than the public schools, or because you object to this, that, or the other being taught. That's your right as a parent. I don't have kids, and I won't tell you how to raise yours. However, at the very least, you should equip your kid for college with real science, real history, and real literature. Anything else is a disservice to your child and harms them later in life.

64 brookly red  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:17:36pm

I live in NYC where people don't home school & to boot I got no kids in the system... now every year my taxes go up to support public education & every year the teachers union blames their failures on lack of parental involvement...

so which is it?

65 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:18:04pm

re: #58 SteveC

When I worked in small museum here, we had homeschool groups come in to tour. They were either great kids or absolutely horrible - no middle ground. We had one bunch that was all "yes sir, no sir." and had two budding engineers who were *very* interested in how our 150 year old loom functioned.

We had another group who, five minutes into the guided tour, were telling the students that sure, it was OK for them to crawl onto our 50 year old mechanical mule. And the teacher was upset when we reigned them in. "But the children learn best by doing!"

//There are certain rules that ensure decorum and tranquility, lady!

I wonder if the latter group was filled with Indigo Children.

66 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:18:31pm

I'm feeling a massive pile-on of religion coming. Y'all have fun.

Yeah, I know...

"I'll be on the veranda since you're already on the cross."
-Brian, Family Guy

67 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:18:36pm

re: #41 windsagio

yeah, I feel bad for 'em.

Homeschooling has its place (altho even with the meetings, I don't think it socializes kids enough), but not if its for a crazy political or religious reason.

Thats like the guy who had his daughter live with him in the woods for 4 years.


About socialisation-- the homeschoolers I've known do get around that in various ways. They've been networked with other parents who are also homeschooling, and all the kids participate in lots of activities, often with the local kids who are attending outside schools too.

Who is this guy with the daughter in the woods? I missed that one--

68 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:18:42pm

re: #18 windsagio

woah, a bit grim there!

For me, its a less extreme version of people who won't take their kids in to the doctor because of their religion. (Just had one of those end in OR)

Its always funny when you're talking about your right to do massive harm to your children.

When I was a teacher, I had a student - very bright girl - whose family believed in faith healing. It was painful watching her deal with her father's death...she was pretty practical about it, explaining that her family was holding regular prayers but that they wouldn't listen to her when she said they needed to take him to the hospital. She was 15, and looking forward to college when she could 'escape.'

69 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:19:05pm

re: #63 Lidane

Not to mention any history and literature professors they might have.

That's my biggest complaint about homeschooling, really. I don't care if you want to teach your kids at home because you think you can do better than the public schools, or because you object to this, that, or the other being taught. That's your right as a parent. I don't have kids, and I won't tell you how to raise yours. However, at the very least, you should equip your kid for college with real science, real history, and real literature. Anything else is a disservice to your child and harms them later in life.

We don't know what's in their curriculum for the other subjects.

70 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:19:12pm

re: #62 jamesfirecat

Click our tongues and say what a shame it is and then do nothing else.

It's what Liberals do best!

it's what most people do best.

71 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:19:30pm

re: #46 Vambo

Decry it, or more likely push for real homeschooling standards for parents. Standards already exist, they're just iffy. /actually no, I know that nothing will actually happen. Complaining about it is fun tho'!

re: #49 MandyManners

Thats what I'll do when I have kids (if I can afford private school anyways :p)

72 SteveC  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:19:35pm

re: #35 MandyManners

I notice a distinct lack of real science degrees.

It seems (around here) that the good homeschoolers have actual teachers, while the bad ones have Martha. Martha is so good with children, let's see if she will be our teacher!

Martha is a kind gentle soul who is way over her head.

73 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:19:38pm

re: #59 freetoken


apparently stonewall jackson is a favorite fixture in homeschooling publications because of his strong religious convictions. who cares that he fought for the confederacy to prolong and maintain slavery right?

74 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:19:50pm

re: #68 darthstar

When I was a teacher, I had a student - very bright girl - whose family believed in faith healing. It was painful watching her deal with her father's death...she was pretty practical about it, explaining that her family was holding regular prayers but that they wouldn't listen to her when she said they needed to take him to the hospital. She was 15, and looking forward to college when she could 'escape.'

It'd be richly ironic if she went on to become a doctor.

75 erraticsphinx  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:20:08pm

re: #54 SpaceJesus

Marxist homosexuals.

The worst kind...

76 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:20:26pm

re: #64 brookly red

I live in NYC where people don't home school & to boot I got no kids in the system... now every year my taxes go up to support public education & every year the teachers union blames their failures on lack of parental involvement...

so which is it?

parents need to make sure their kids do their damn homework is what it is

77 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:20:35pm

re: #72 SteveC

It seems (around here) that the good homeschoolers have actual teachers, while the bad ones have Martha. Martha is so good with children, let's see if she will be our teacher!

Martha is a kind gentle soul who is way over her head.

I couldn't imagine trying to home-school The Kid.

78 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:21:02pm

re: #33 keloyd

If we need more evidence that the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data', check out the only 2 homeschooled kids I've ever met. They went to my (science-friendly) church. They were 12ish and their parents, in their 50s were sharp. Dad was a chemist or engineer or something, I think with a PhD. Anyhoo, the local schools were subpar, and these ~6th graders were nearly finished with algebra and were studying Latin. On top of that, there's some organization that gets the homeschool kids together several times a week for various reasons, not limited to keeping them from turning into neurotic shut-ins. There was talk of creating a football team to compete with the other highschools.

The thing with homeschool kids is you get a higher average performance, but an enormous spread.

These kids would totally understand my anecdotes=/ data quip, as well as the word quip.

My sister is homeschooling her kids until they are high school age. She uses a music/arts program like you describe. She AGONIZED over homeschooling, or medicating her eldest for "ADHD", and voted to homeschool. I pointed out the advantages ( class size, teacher who really does care, attention, and quality of the teacher). And generally tried to support what ever her decision was.

79 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:21:51pm

Muslims join Drudge and Alex Jones in opposing airport security....
Airport body scanners violate Islamic law, Muslims say

The Fiqh Council of North America – a body of Islamic scholars that includes some from Michigan – issued a fatwa this week that says going through the airport scanners would violate Islamic rules on modesty.

“It is a violation of clear Islamic teachings that men or women be seen naked by other men and women,” reads the fatwa issued Tuesday. “Islam highly emphasizes haya (modesty) and considers it part of faith. The Quran has commanded the believers, both men and women, to cover their private parts.”

80 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:21:57pm

re: #78 Floral Giraffe

My sister is homeschooling her kids until they are high school age. She uses a music/arts program like you describe. She AGONIZED over homeschooling, or medicating her eldest for "ADHD", and voted to homeschool. I pointed out the advantages ( class size, teacher who really does care, attention, and quality of the teacher). And generally tried to support what ever her decision was.

Even home-schooling would require The Kid to be medicated five days a week.

81 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:22:27pm

re: #79 Killgore Trout

Muslims join Drudge and Alex Jones in opposing airport security...
Airport body scanners violate Islamic law, Muslims say

Another example of moronic conversion?

82 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:22:51pm

re: #64 brookly red

I live in NYC where people don't home school & to boot I got no kids in the system... now every year my taxes go up to support public education & every year the teachers union blames their failures on lack of parental involvement...

so which is it?

I don't know, which sucks more?! unions or taxes?!?!?!

83 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:23:02pm

re: #59 freetoken

I was just about to make a comment about that other favorite topic of home-schoolers - history, especially American history.

Over the years I've known a few people who were homeschooling, but not many. In every case it was a highly religious family.

There's a creepy section in Jesus Camp about that, IIRC. The kids were being taught a revisionist (Christian) American history.

84 SteveC  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:23:06pm

re: #80 MandyManners

Even home-schooling would require The Kid to be medicated five days a week.

... and Mandy to be medicated eight days a week!

85 brookly red  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:23:14pm

re: #76 SpaceJesus

parents need to make sure their kids do their damn homework is what it is

OK I will buy that so parental involvement is good... at what point does teaching one's children stop being good and start being detrimental?

86 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:23:14pm

re: #49 MandyManners

I took a good look at the curriculum at The Kid's conservative, evangelical, Christian school before I applied.

Yes, of course you did. You care about the kid & his quality of education!

87 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:23:43pm

re: #67 iceweasel

I'll look it up, it was an Oregon thing. (will take a while to find tho~)

As to the other thing, there are ways, but I don't think its the same. Well maybe thats worse. I think an important thing about school is that its good to get out from under your parents total control, homeschooling doesn't do that.

88 Lidane  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:23:44pm

re: #69 MandyManners

We don't know what's in their curriculum for the other subjects.

True, but if they're teaching Young Earth Creationism to their kids as science, it's not a stretch to think they're also teaching a highly sanitized version of American History, and are being very selective on the literature they expose their kids to as well.

That's the problem, I think. It's not the homeschooling itself. It's parents who teach their kids highly selective and specious information and claim they're educating their kids. Chances are high that those kids will struggle when they get out into the real world and into college, and their professors will have to pick up the slack.

89 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:24:06pm

re: #84 SteveC

... and Mandy to be medicated eight days a week!

You got that right!!!

90 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:24:40pm

My personal opinion is that school is more than just the curriculum. It is where children learn to socialize, and come to understand their place in the broader community. It is where they are exposed to people who may do things differently. My kids go to a private school, and that in and of itself limits just how much diversity there is there, but I can tell you, I was pretty psyched when my kid came home today and said to me "Gong Hey fat Choy"! It is an important part of one's education.

91 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:24:40pm

re: #80 MandyManners

Even home-schooling would require The Kid to be medicated five days a week.

I say this as someone with ADHD, if you're gonna medicate your kids do it seven days a week. No reason to leave them with a body chemistry that is in state A five days a week and state B two days a week.

92 erraticsphinx  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:24:54pm

re: #88 Lidane

And when the professors try to pick up the slack, OMG LIBERAL BIAS AT UNIVERSITIES.

93 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:24:59pm

re: #86 Floral Giraffe

Yes, of course you did. You care about the kid & his quality of education!

So do the overwhelming--if not complete--majority of parents who home-school.

94 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:25:20pm

Here's another question to think about:

There are a lot of very religious people in this country. Not necessarily a bad thing but imagine if, within a generation, 50% of them decide to homeschool. We're talking about tens of millions of people suddenly pulled out of the sciences. Let's estimate that at 20% of the nation.

That's a significant problem in terms of our future, I think. Can we actually build a society based on this? One in which science and innovation in technology is mandatory for our economic competition?

In my view, it's not that far fetched a scenario given a decade or so. What would we actually do about it, if anything? And is that acceptable?

I'm not sure. I don't want to make that illegal, I'm just worried about certain trends where this may go and with fanaticism on some levels. At least people should talk about it now before it gets to that point.

95 Racer X  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:25:22pm

I was home schooled. Every day, after getting home from Catholic school then public school.

Get involved with your kid.

96 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:25:33pm

re: #63 Lidane

There are a lot of study curriculums out there, and they have teachers guides, suggested readings, field trip ideas & more.

97 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:25:34pm

re: #88 Lidane

True, but if they're teaching Young Earth Creationism to their kids as science, it's not a stretch to think they're also teaching a highly sanitized version of American History, and are being very selective on the literature they expose their kids to as well.

That's the problem, I think. It's not the homeschooling itself. It's parents who teach their kids highly selective and specious information and claim they're educating their kids. Chances are high that those kids will struggle when they get out into the real world and into college, and their professors will have to pick up the slack.

No one ever said freedom is easy.

98 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:26:22pm

re: #90 Petero1818

My personal opinion is that school is more than just the curriculum. It is where children learn to socialize, and come to understand their place in the broader community. It is where they are exposed to people who may do things differently. My kids go to a private school, and that in and of itself limits just how much diversity there is there, but I can tell you, I was pretty psyched when my kid came home today and said to me "Gong Hey fat Choy"! It is an important part of one's education.

Home-schoolers have organizations where they get together with other kids.

99 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:26:44pm

Some quick-witted fan filmed John Mayer's apology and uploaded it:

Dig the band vamping behind him as he talks.

100 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:26:45pm

re: #91 jamesfirecat

I say this as someone with ADHD, if you're gonna medicate your kids do it seven days a week. No reason to leave them with a body chemistry that is in state A five days a week and state B two days a week.

His doctor recommended against it.

101 Racer X  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:27:15pm
102 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:27:23pm

re: #85 brookly red

OK I will buy that so parental involvement is good... at what point does teaching one's children stop being good and start being detrimental?

when they don't pass a statewide, universal high school exam...and are not prepped for their SATs and ACTs....nothing else matters, the rest is just self rightous bullshit

103 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:27:26pm

re: #94 Summer

Here's another question to think about:

There are a lot of very religious people in this country. Not necessarily a bad thing but imagine if, within a generation, 50% of them decide to homeschool. We're talking about tens of millions of people suddenly pulled out of the sciences. Let's estimate that at 20% of the nation.

That's a significant problem in terms of our future, I think. Can we actually build a society based on this? One in which science and innovation in technology is mandatory for our economic competition?

In my view, it's not that far fetched a scenario given a decade or so. What would we actually do about it, if anything? And is that acceptable?

I'm not sure. I don't want to make that illegal, I'm just worried about certain trends where this may go and with fanaticism on some levels. At least people should talk about it now before it gets to that point.

We'll become a nation of marching morons and the elites who keep them in line.

104 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:27:45pm

re: #97 MandyManners

No one ever said freedom is easy.

Freedom is just another word for "nothing left to lose"

/Kris Kristofferson/Janis Joplin

105 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:28:19pm

re: #103 jamesfirecat

which some people would like >

106 cronus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:28:33pm

Teach on. Less employment competition for my kids.

107 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:28:51pm

re: #100 MandyManners

His doctor recommended against it.

Huh really?

He must have a different version of ADHD then I do.

I find that being medicated even on the weekends "works" for me pretty well, but then at my age you need your mind keen for the weekends to work on those projects you've been slacking off on during the week days....

108 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:29:12pm

re: #103 jamesfirecat

We'll become a nation of marching morons and the elites who keep them in line.

BO droolers...good description of liberals

109 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:30:01pm

re: #102 albusteve

when they don't pass a statewide, universal high school exam...and are not prepped for their SATs and ACTs...nothing else matters, the rest is just self rightous bullshit

hell no, it's the standardized tests that are bullshit.

110 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:30:10pm

re: #98 MandyManners

Home-schoolers have organizations where they get together with other kids.

True, but I don't think its the same. I think when you spend all day every day with people you deal with many of the same situations that we must learn to cope with later in life. Furthermore, my guess is that people who home school for religious reasons are probably less likely to have their kids integrated with kids from different backgrounds after home schooling too.

111 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:30:18pm

re: #108 albusteve

BO droolers...good description of liberals

eh, you can fuck off now.

112 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:31:03pm

re: #103 jamesfirecat

We'll become a nation of marching morons and the elites who keep them in line.

As much as I think that is already true in some sense, I am fundamentally opposed to simply accepting that sort of situation. =) I don't really care if parents teach their kids to be religious - that's fine with me and everyone here knows I'm an Atheist and pretty vocal about it at times.

I am against creating an underclass of people. I think that's just wrong on so many levels. This is really a serious issue. Half of this country doesn't accept the fact of evolution. That's a major problem, and it's a growing problem. What do we do about it? Honestly. Lots of people on my side think that educating people is the way to go but then we read that parents can take their kids out of the way of exposure to real facts and hide them from it, so that tells me that education is not actually the solution right now.

So what is? I'm not sure. I'm just worried about the future, honestly.

113 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:31:08pm

re: #107 jamesfirecat

Huh really?

He must have a different version of ADHD then I do.

I find that being medicated even on the weekends "works" for me pretty well, but then at my age you need your mind keen for the weekends to work on those projects you've been slacking off on during the week days...

Weekends are for running wild.

114 brookly red  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:31:12pm

re: #102 albusteve

when they don't pass a statewide, universal high school exam...and are not prepped for their SATs and ACTs...nothing else matters, the rest is just self rightous bullshit

OK I will buy that too...

any idea what the percentages are cause I honestly don't know.

115 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:31:27pm

re: #109 Vambo

hell no, it's the standardized tests that are bullshit.

whatever...if you say so, then fix the tests so that are children are prepared for college, home schooled or otherwise

116 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:31:43pm

re: #106 cronus

Teach on. Less employment competition for my kids.

Aren't you just a sympathetic ass?

117 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:31:54pm

re: #109 Vambo

hell no, it's the standardized tests that are bullshit.

Like I said if I had to pick just one bone with your current school system, we aren't doing enough to teach critical thinking, way too many times was I asked to read a paper, write a paper on it, yadda yadda yadda five to seven sentences per paragraph three quotes per paragraph, not nearly enough time is spent teaching students how to draw conclusions from given pieces of data....

118 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:32:10pm

Here is something parents can use to home school their kids. It was developed by Hillsdale College. [Link: www.hillsdale.edu...]

119 Cheechako  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:32:10pm

OT

Just heard on the radio news that President Obama will be meeting with the Dali Lama at the White House later this month.

120 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:32:13pm

re: #108 albusteve

BO droolers...good description of liberals

You're better than this.

121 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:32:13pm

re: #111 Vambo

eh, you can fuck off now.

so can you...here's a napkin on your way out

122 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:32:22pm

re: #110 Petero1818

True, but I don't think its the same. I think when you spend all day every day with people you deal with many of the same situations that we must learn to cope with later in life. Furthermore, my guess is that people who home school for religious reasons are probably less likely to have their kids integrated with kids from different backgrounds after home schooling too.

Well, that is their right. But, when the children get out into the bigger world, they'll learn how to get along with others.

123 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:33:14pm

re: #112 Summer

As much as I think that is already true in some sense, I am fundamentally opposed to simply accepting that sort of situation. =) I don't really care if parents teach their kids to be religious - that's fine with me and everyone here knows I'm an Atheist and pretty vocal about it at times.

I am against creating an underclass of people. I think that's just wrong on so many levels. This is really a serious issue. Half of this country doesn't accept the fact of evolution. That's a major problem, and it's a growing problem. What do we do about it? Honestly. Lots of people on my side think that educating people is the way to go but then we read that parents can take their kids out of the way of exposure to real facts and hide them from it, so that tells me that education is not actually the solution right now.

So what is? I'm not sure. I'm just worried about the future, honestly.

What do we do when they seem to be hell bent on making themselves into an under class by leaving themselves in a position where they waste the first two decades of their lives with a sub standard education?

I've got no easy answer either at the moment...

124 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:33:48pm

re: #108 albusteve

BO droolers...good description of liberals

Up-ding for the laughter.

125 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:33:49pm

re: #110 Petero1818

I don't know that I agree. A full day every week, with the same folks for 4-6 years, is IMHO "getting socialized". The kids do get to know each other & learn how to get along.

126 erraticsphinx  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:33:58pm

re: #123 jamesfirecat

Keep them the hell out of government or any sort of decision making.

127 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:33:59pm

Even though they're indoctrinating their children into an anti-science world view, the dirty libertarian in me keeps yelling "you can't stop parents from homeschooling their kids if they choose to".

128 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:34:02pm

re: #120 darthstar

You're better than this.

it was perfect, and you know it...you need a cookie too?

129 Racer X  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:34:02pm

Lighten up people.

Really.

130 freetoken  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:34:19pm

I suspect this problem with homeschooling is one that cannot be addressed very well. Put simply, to require children to go to school is one thing, but then to dictate that a parent has no right to direct which type of school/schooling the child may attend amounts to a level of social direction that most Americans will find too intrusive.

Let's face another hard fact: whether one accepts evolution as true or not doesn't matter in most people's lives. They can get on quite well in their jobs, family lives, etc. without assenting to the facts as uncovered by science.

Only those people who work in fields related to biology even need to truly understand evolution at some level. For the rest of us it may be quite enlightening to know the truth about the origin of species, but it is not vital.

However, there is a darker beast lurking in this closet, and it has to do with a society's ability to handle change and to accumulate and disseminate knowledge. The climate of hostility towards science, history, academia, etc. as expressed by Tea Partiers, other fragments of the "religious right", and the misc. odd groups of fringe ideologies (from the Raelians to the new agers to Dianetics, etc.) is very discouraging. The whole lot could be described as the anti-Reality crowd.

How destructive to our society and nation this pernicious fantasy-mongering will be is not clear to me. Let's hope as time goes on that the more solid foundations of knowledge overcomes the idiocy.

131 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:34:37pm

re: #120 darthstar

You're better than this.

I thought he did it for the laughter.

132 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:34:54pm

Finally! The end of the thread!

I actually avoid most Homeschool Science Texts. (Capitalization on purpose.)

This is the reason why.

I just buy the same ones that the kids in public school use. And lots, and lots of science fun stuff.

We're going to pan for gold in a couple of weeks. Lesson: density.

133 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:35:15pm

re: #126 erraticsphinx

Keep them the hell out of government or any sort of decision making.

Home-schoolers?

134 brookly red  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:35:29pm

re: #126 erraticsphinx

Keep them the hell out of government or any sort of decision making.

well when the POTUS say there are 57 states you do kinda have to ask your self what are we doing wrong.

135 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:35:32pm

re: #122 MandyManners

Well, that is their right. But, when the children get out into the bigger world, they'll learn how to get along with others.

Perhaps you misunderstand me. I would never in a million years attempt to deprive them of their right to homeschool their kids regardless of how stupid I may think it is. I was simply suggesting that IMHO kids may miss more than science, when being home schooled. Furthermore, I would hope that kids have built these skills over a long period of time.

136 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:35:38pm

re: #132 EmmmieG

Not getting rich quick?
;)

137 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:35:39pm

re: #123 jamesfirecat

What do we do when they seem to be hell bent on making themselves into an under class by leaving themselves in a position where they waste the first two decades of their lives with a sub standard education?

I've got no easy answer either at the moment...

Yea but it's a serious problem. It's pretty scary what may come of it in another generation. Then again, it's not as if our education system hasn't been failing us since already two generations so I'm not really sure anyone has an answer for it anyway.

138 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:36:05pm

re: #123 jamesfirecat

What do we do when they seem to be hell bent on making themselves into an under class by leaving themselves in a position where they waste the first two decades of their lives with a sub standard education?

I've got no easy answer either at the moment...

you don't do anything with them...you mind your own business...if people want to be self taught underclass, it's none of your business...this is America

139 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:36:06pm

re: #87 windsagio

I'll look it up, it was an Oregon thing. (will take a while to find tho~)

As to the other thing, there are ways, but I don't think its the same. Well maybe thats worse. I think an important thing Butabout school is that its good to get out from under your parents total control, homeschooling doesn't do that.

I think that's probably why the homeschoolers I knew sent their kids to high school for the last two years--- partly so the kids would have that experience. But depending on the parents and the community, there do seem to be ways around the social issue; as I said, the parents tended to be highly networked with the other homeschoolers and the kids were also interacting with neighbourhood kids, non-homeschooled kids, you name it.

I think that just as with sending your kids to a public or private school, the bottom line is always the parental involvement. In the cases I knew, both parents were always highly educated (as in, post-grad degrees, not only an undergrad degree). That probably makes a difference as well. They didn't have any problems hiring tutors to teach what they didn't know, or with rotating kids to other homeschooling parents. (The mother with a chemistry degree handled the math and science at a certain point for example, and so on.)

Seems to me like it can work out, based on the small sample size I've known. Always comes back to the parental involvement in the end. But I would like to see it more under state supervision, particularly because of the abuse cases I mentioned.

140 SteveC  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:36:16pm

re: #128 albusteve

it was perfect, and you know it...you need a cookie too?

Yeah I am kinda hungry... you got any peanut butter cookies, Steve?

/

141 erraticsphinx  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:36:19pm

re: #133 MandyManners

Of course not. I mean the people who deny evolution etc, and would seek to change our education system to reflect their distorted views.

142 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:36:24pm

Some ADHD medications can cause children to lose their appetites, which can be a problem. My nephew dropped below my son in skinniness, and that's nearly impossible, as my son has a negative body-fat percent.

143 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:36:48pm

re: #130 freetoken

I suspect this problem with homeschooling is one that cannot be addressed very well. Put simply, to require children to go to school is one thing, but then to dictate that a parent has no right to direct which type of school/schooling the child may attend amounts to a level of social direction that most Americans will find too intrusive.

Let's face another hard fact: whether one accepts evolution as true or not doesn't matter in most people's lives. They can get on quite well in their jobs, family lives, etc. without assenting to the facts as uncovered by science.

Only those people who work in fields related to biology even need to truly understand evolution at some level. For the rest of us it may be quite enlightening to know the truth about the origin of species, but it is not vital.

However, there is a darker beast lurking in this closet, and it has to do with a society's ability to handle change and to accumulate and disseminate knowledge. The climate of hostility towards science, history, academia, etc. as expressed by Tea Partiers, other fragments of the "religious right", and the misc. odd groups of fringe ideologies (from the Raelians to the new agers to Dianetics, etc.) is very discouraging. The whole lot could be described as the anti-Reality crowd.

How destructive to our society and nation this pernicious fantasy-mongering will be is not clear to me. Let's hope as time goes on that the more solid foundations of knowledge overcomes the idiocy.

I agree to a point.

I've never seen an anti-science poster at a tea party, though.

144 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:36:48pm

re: #136 Floral Giraffe

Not getting rich quick?
;)

That's right. Child labor.

145 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:36:52pm

re: #125 Floral Giraffe

That certainly may be, and it may not be. I am simply rendering my own opinion.

146 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:36:57pm

re: #130 freetoken

I suspect this problem with homeschooling is one that cannot be addressed very well. Put simply, to require children to go to school is one thing, but then to dictate that a parent has no right to direct which type of school/schooling the child may attend amounts to a level of social direction that most Americans will find too intrusive.

Let's face another hard fact: whether one accepts evolution as true or not doesn't matter in most people's lives. They can get on quite well in their jobs, family lives, etc. without assenting to the facts as uncovered by science.

Sounds like we have another dirty libertarian in here.

147 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:37:04pm

re: #128 albusteve

it was perfect, and you know it...you need a cookie too?

No, it wasn't. But that's okay. I called Fox viewers 'knuckle draggers' earlier and got chastised for stereotyping myself.

re: #131 MandyManners

I thought he did it for the laughter.

Oh, I must be getting slow.

148 erraticsphinx  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:37:14pm

re: #134 brookly red

That gets old.

149 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:37:31pm

re: #131 MandyManners

I thought he did it for the laughter.

I don't care what some twit thinks

150 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:37:56pm

re: #135 Petero1818

Perhaps you misunderstand me. I would never in a million years attempt to deprive them of their right to homeschool their kids regardless of how stupid I may think it is. I was simply suggesting that IMHO kids may miss more than science, when being home schooled. Furthermore, I would hope that kids have built these skills over a long period of time.

They do! They don't just sit at home, their noses buried in books.

151 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:38:28pm

re: #140 SteveC

Yeah I am kinda hungry... you got any peanut butter cookies, Steve?

/

one of my favorites...laced with chocolate chips....mmmm!

152 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:38:32pm

re: #149 albusteve

I don't care what some twit thinks

I'm a twit? Cool! I've never been called a twit before. Updinged for originality.

153 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:38:47pm

re: #134 brookly red

well when the POTUS say there are 57 states you do kinda have to ask your self what are we doing wrong.

Do you really want to play "lets look at all the stupid things/verbal slip ups every president ever has said at one time or another?"

"Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?"


""I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."

"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

154 cronus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:38:59pm

The fact that this mother actually uses the word "evolution" probably puts her at the progressive vanguard of her religiously motivated home schooling peers.

155 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:39:20pm

re: #141 erraticsphinx

Of course not. I mean the people who deny evolution etc, and would seek to change our education system to reflect their distorted views.

They have a right to seek employment in the government. We have a right to stop them from monkeying with the education system.

156 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:39:47pm

re: #139 iceweasel

You have a point. I think that with good parenting, either result comes out well.

It also depends on the kid. I'm not actually an Asperger, but I have tendencies that way. My parents almost homeschooled me (this was back before it was trendy), but I'm glad they didn't.... I'd be a total wreck if I hadn't gone through normal school (and, it definitely wasn't a walk in the park either :p)

On the other hand, maybe my personal experiences (and seeing my cousins) is flavoring my opinion.

157 brookly red  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:39:55pm

re: #148 erraticsphinx

That gets old.

that is not an answer...

158 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:40:26pm

re: #152 darthstar

Somebody called me a choad (chode?) once on here. I was so happy! That got an upding too :)

159 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:40:28pm

re: #142 EmmmieG

Some ADHD medications can cause children to lose their appetites, which can be a problem. My nephew dropped below my son in skinniness, and that's nearly impossible, as my son has a negative body-fat percent.

That's a plus side for me to tell you the truth.

I've got a horrible diet consisting mainly of pizza but I manage to hang around 150 pounds (I'm 5'5 or so) because of my ADHD meds.

Not that I'd suggest the Concerta and Pizza Hut diet is for everyone....

160 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:40:32pm

re: #157 brookly red

that is not an answer...

57 primaries, not states. Willful ignorance isn't an answer, either. ;)

161 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:40:33pm

re: #148 erraticsphinx

That gets old.

really...a product of an exceptional upbringing at the best schools and the boob doesn't know that Puerto Rico is not a state?....what a rube

162 freetoken  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:40:56pm

re: #146 Mosh

Sounds like we have another dirty libertarian in here.

I was... until I saw the light...

163 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:40:57pm

re: #154 cronus

I dunno, sounds like she's using the term in order to teach why its wrong.

164 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:41:15pm

re: #154 cronus

The fact that this mother actually uses the word "evolution" probably puts her at the progressive vanguard of her religiously motivated home schooling peers.

Students in The Kid's school learn in chapel that God created the heavens and the earth. They learn in science how.

165 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:41:21pm

re: #150 MandyManners

Monday: Piano and regular school
Tuesday: School in the morning, science class here in the afternoon (abt. 8 other kids show up).
Wednesday: School in the morning, PE in the local gymnastics gym in the afternoon.
Thursday: Sweet sweet unscheduled day.
Friday: Homeschool group all day. Oldest has two actual classes, youngers are in a group that does fun activities based on a book or a subject.

They have the following groups to interact with:
Church/scouts kids.
Scouts from the school pack (we're in two packs, don't ask):
HS group kids.
Neighbors.
Cousins.

166 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:41:38pm

re: #88 Lidane

True, but if they're teaching Young Earth Creationism to their kids as science, it's not a stretch to think they're also teaching a highly sanitized version of American History, and are being very selective on the literature they expose their kids to as well.

That's the problem, I think. It's not the homeschooling itself. It's parents who teach their kids highly selective and specious information and claim they're educating their kids. Chances are high that those kids will struggle when they get out into the real world and into college, and their professors will have to pick up the slack.

As a group they seem to be doing all right, though. One couple of my acquaintance, liberals both, homeschooled their four kids because the area they lived in had poor public schools, and they couldn't afford private school. The kids grew up wonderfully, did well in high school and college, and have bright futures.

I myself hire part-time staff fairly regularly, who tend to be students. From years of experience I gravitate towards the homeschooled kids, as they tend to be more mature, motivated, and harder working, taken as a group.

167 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:41:47pm

re: #150 MandyManners

They do! They don't just sit at home, their noses buried in books.

Just curious. How do you happen to know what all home schooled kids do? It seems to me you are taking an indefensible position. If a home school parent is taking great care to ensure their children are getting enough exposure outside of the home, that is one thing. My guess is there are some who are not.

168 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:41:51pm

re: #152 darthstar

I'm a twit? Cool! I've never been called a twit before. Updinged for originality.

it's not original at all...you are way behind the curve

169 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:41:56pm

re: #159 jamesfirecat

That's a plus side for me to tell you the truth.

I've got a horrible diet consisting mainly of pizza but I manage to hang around 150 pounds (I'm 5'5 or so) because of my ADHD meds.

Not that I'd suggest the Concerta and Pizza Hut diet is for everyone...

I actually did a round of finals once on Swiss chocolate and summer sausage.

Even at 20, it nearly killed me off.

170 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:41:59pm

re: #154 cronus

There's actually a pretty well-developed set of tools from various Creationist groups to argue against accepted evolutionary biology when it conflicts with the Bible. I would bet most religious homeschoolers are either connected with or well aware of the political part of that movement.

171 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:42:10pm

re: #152 darthstar

I'm a twit? Cool! I've never been called a twit before. Updinged for originality.

Twitist!

172 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:42:11pm

re: #159 jamesfirecat

hrm things have changed. I went thru the ADD thing about 6 years before it was trendy.

The 2 things my doc insisted:

1) you don't want to be on it forever, its about learning new living habits

2) if you lose appetite, you probably shouldn't actually be on the med.


Of course, back then, they were still using Dexedrine >>

173 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:42:25pm

re: #165 EmmmieG

Monday: Piano and regular school
Tuesday: School in the morning, science class here in the afternoon (abt. 8 other kids show up).
Wednesday: School in the morning, PE in the local gymnastics gym in the afternoon.
Thursday: Sweet sweet unscheduled day.
Friday: Homeschool group all day. Oldest has two actual classes, youngers are in a group that does fun activities based on a book or a subject.

They have the following groups to interact with:
Church/scouts kids.
Scouts from the school pack (we're in two packs, don't ask):
HS group kids.
Neighbors.
Cousins.

Now, that's a lot of people!

174 SteveC  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:42:34pm

re: #159 jamesfirecat

That's a plus side for me to tell you the truth.

I've got a horrible diet consisting mainly of pizza but I manage to hang around 150 pounds (I'm 5'5 or so) because of my ADHD meds.

Not that I'd suggest the Concerta and Pizza Hut diet is for everyone...

Damn! i found my appetite the day I was born and haven't lost it, not even for a moment.

175 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:42:40pm

re: #168 albusteve

it's not original at all...you are way behind the curve

behind the curve? Cool! I've never been accused of being behind the curve before. Updinged for originality.

176 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:42:47pm

re: #127 Mosh

Count me in. Short of abuse or neglect, parental rights are near absolute. Of course reasonable curriculum requirements could be enforced.

That having been said this is where the freedom to practice religion takes precedence. If you do not like what they are taught, well think of it like the second amendment. Lots of what you hear or say is terribly contrary to your world view. Well deal with it. Tolerance for peoples contrary beliefs is the test of our tolerance and lack of bigotry or misdirected contempt.

177 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:43:02pm

re: #167 Petero1818

Just curious. How do you happen to know what all home schooled kids do? It seems to me you are taking an indefensible position. If a home school parent is taking great care to ensure their children are getting enough exposure outside of the home, that is one thing. My guess is there are some who are not.

That's their right.

178 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:43:07pm

re: #37 windsagio

The problem isn't all homeschooling of course, I wonder if the hardcore religious private schools are just as bad.


Yes, as of 20-30 years ago, in my experience, they were. I got yanked out of an independent Baptist preschool in the mid-70s that was all gung ho about how evolution is the Devil, gals working and wearing long pants was the Devil, beer is the Devil, etc. (We're not Baptists, but their kindergarten was well-run and.) Turns out, they started to cop an attitude when my (black) next door neighbors tried to get in after my mom had recommended them so highly. The strangest thing I remember is that they really emphasized how awesome it is to be a martyr. Stories about Christian persecution behind the Iron Curtain or China was fed to us with pictures and dramatic flourish at a very early age. To this minute I have more respect and emotional investment in that niche of Church history than most somewhat religious people. I heard more about martyrs before age 6 than I've heard all the rest of my life put together (from inside a church).

Still, while it is irksome to throw innocent children into the meat grinder, 'freedom' means the right so mess up your kids to some degree, so that others have the right to teach about St. Thomas Aquinas. If the 18 year olds can read, write, and do math competently, we can only stay out of the way.

In other news, I suspect that for every fundie who was taught history badly, there's another atheist college kid who swallowed everything Zinn or Chomsky spewed that is no more or less correct. Dangit how can some of you can write 2 lines and every time I put fingers to keys, on only beer #3, there's One.Billion.Words?

179 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:43:07pm

re: #162 freetoken

I was... until I saw the light...

What made you convert?

180 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:43:13pm

re: #173 MandyManners

Oh, I forgot the PE kids, who are always the same group, and they get to know them.

181 studentpatriot  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:43:54pm

Just need to throw this out there,

Francis Collins was the scientist in charge of the human genome sequencing project at the National Institutes of Health. He wrote a book called the "Language of God" where he brings together his strong Christian faith (acquired after medical school) and his belief in evolution.

He needs to be mentioned in every evolution vs. creationism post.

182 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:44:15pm

re: #150 MandyManners

Correct. The kids gather and play.

183 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:44:18pm

re: #156 windsagio


It also depends on the kid. I'm not actually an Asperger, but I have tendencies that way. My parents almost homeschooled me (this was back before it was trendy), but I'm glad they didn't... I'd be a total wreck if I hadn't gone through normal school (and, it definitely wasn't a walk in the park either :p)

Definitely. In some cases it just might not be right for the kid. But in some cases it might be ideal.
Aspergers or anything like it is exactly the kind of case where I don't think it would be a good idea. So much of Aspergers involves missing normal social cues-- it can't be good for a child with it to be further isolated from social interaction. Just guessing based on my one friend who does have it. It would have been a very bad idea for him, because he processes people and emotional and social responses like the classic 'anthropologist from mars' (to borrow Oliver Sacks' term for Temple Grandin)-- he needed a large 'data set' in order to develop a working social interaction. :)

184 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:44:36pm

re: #177 MandyManners

They have the right to do harm, but since we're on the subject, we're free to call it harm, y'know? >>

185 brookly red  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:44:41pm

re: #160 darthstar

57 primaries, not states. Willful ignorance isn't an answer, either. ;)

Ahhh, spin as you will, we all heard it... but as I said I don't have a dog in this fight so I don't really care.

186 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:45:02pm

re: #180 EmmmieG

Oh, I forgot the PE kids, who are always the same group, and they get to know them.

You've a lot more stamina than I.

187 cronus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:45:41pm

re: #164 MandyManners

Students in The Kid's school learn in chapel that God created the heavens and the earth. They learn in science how.

But I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that in this home the "how" god did it part is the literal word of Genesis and not an explanation of real biology and cosmology.

188 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:45:47pm

re: #170 jaunte

It's called confirmation bias. People ignore information that conflicts with their beliefs. Some wackos even believe that Noah's Ark was found in Turkey.

189 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:46:02pm

re: #172 windsagio

hrm things have changed. I went thru the ADD thing about 6 years before it was trendy.

The 2 things my doc insisted:

1) you don't want to be on it forever, its about learning new living habits

2) if you lose appetite, you probably shouldn't actually be on the med.

Of course, back then, they were still using Dexedrine >>

I think I tried Dexedrine once for about a week or two and it kept me up all night so I pretty quickly switched back to Ritalin. Of course that stuff tastes nasty and I had to take two pills a day one in the morning and one at lunch so in middle school I switched over to 8 hour Concerta which is the same general stuff, different release schedule and the pills don't taste like anything at all.


I've got a lifestyle that works and the fact that it helps counter act my horrible eating habits is a side bonus.

Its like all my faults are balanced out by my other faults!

190 Racer X  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:46:03pm
191 freetoken  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:46:12pm

re: #166 The Sanity Inspector

Generally speaking, the home-schooled children I have known likewise seem to be a bit more mature than the class-room taught children.

I suspect it has much to do with the level of parent involvement. When I walk around town these days and observe the juveniles the one phrase that keeps coming to mind is "under parented."

The (religiously) home-schooled young women I mentioned upstream is a case in point. She impressed me as a fine young woman able to be quite responsible. However, thrown into the art world she came off as someone who was quite the fish out of water.

192 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:46:12pm

re: #182 Rightwingconspirator

Correct. The kids gather and play.

We have quite a few families that meet at the city park on weekdays during the spring and fall. Oodles of kids.

193 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:46:28pm

re: #184 windsagio

They have the right to do harm, but since we're on the subject, we're free to call it harm, y'know? >>

Call it whatever you like!

194 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:46:46pm

re: #183 iceweasel

Very well said. With most kids, and good, dedicated parents (with no crazy-ass agenda) it can do quite well, as much as it grinds me to acknowledge it.

Unfortunately, the stories you always hear are people who homeschool for the wrong reasons >

195 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:47:01pm

re: #177 MandyManners

That's their right.

Is something wrong with you? I will reprint below my post from #135

"Perhaps you misunderstand me. I would never in a million years attempt to deprive them of their right to homeschool their kids regardless of how stupid I may think it is."

Are we clear now? We agree. That's their right.

196 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:47:03pm

re: #187 cronus

But I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that in this home the "how" god did it part is the literal word of Genesis and not an explanation of real biology and cosmology.

If she is really teaching evolution, she's teaching the former two.

197 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:47:04pm

re: #188 Mosh

It's called confirmation bias. People ignore information that conflicts with their beliefs. Some wackos even believe that Noah's Ark was found in Turkey.

I wonder if they've looked for any dinosaur bones up there.

198 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:47:21pm

re: #186 MandyManners

You've a lot more stamina than I.

Imagine The Kid with nothing. to. do. That's why I try to have stuff to do.

Last week I was in the kitchen, and there was a frying pan with a piece of paper in it. I looked.

Moo Goo.

I went and found him and told him he had missed the "Gai."

199 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:47:29pm

re: #119 Cheechako

OT

Just heard on the radio news that President Obama will be meeting with the Dali Lama at the White House later this month.

Good.

200 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:47:48pm

re: #176 Rightwingconspirator

Count me in. Short of abuse or neglect, parental rights are near absolute. Of course reasonable curriculum requirements could be enforced.

That having been said this is where the freedom to practice religion takes precedence. If you do not like what they are taught, well think of it like the second amendment. Lots of what you hear or say is terribly contrary to your world view. Well deal with it. Tolerance for peoples contrary beliefs is the test of our tolerance and lack of bigotry or misdirected contempt.

Well said. Our government cannot allow students to fall behind in critical fields of math and science, especially in this globalized, tech-based economy.

201 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:48:27pm

re: #184 windsagio

They have the right to do harm, but since we're on the subject, we're free to call it harm, y'know? >>

whatever 'harm' these kids are undergoing is easily trumped by your need to define what is' harm', define what is quality education with regard to the failed public ed system, and your need to butt in on other peoples lives with your judgmental, intrusive attitude....you are more of threat to personal freedoms than their so called 'harm'

202 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:48:29pm

re: #195 Petero1818

Is something wrong with you?

Hoo, boy.

203 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:48:52pm

re: #200 Mosh

A tiny minority are religious homeschoolers. We'll probably survive without them, its just a pity for the kids.

204 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:48:59pm

re: #198 EmmmieG

Imagine The Kid with nothing. to. do. That's why I try to have stuff to do.

Last week I was in the kitchen, and there was a frying pan with a piece of paper in it. I looked.

Moo Goo.

I went and found him and told him he had missed the "Gai."

Moo goo?

205 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:49:25pm

re: #191 freetoken

Generally speaking, the home-schooled children I have known likewise seem to be a bit more mature than the class-room taught children.

I suspect it has much to do with the level of parent involvement. When I walk around town these days and observe the juveniles the one phrase that keeps coming to mind is "under parented."

The (religiously) home-schooled young women I mentioned upstream is a case in point. She impressed me as a fine young woman able to be quite responsible. However, thrown into the art world she came off as someone who was quite the fish out of water.

Yes, we all pity the children for whose parents school is just free day care.

206 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:49:32pm

re: #204 MandyManners

Moo goo?

Moo goo pan.

He had forgotten the gai. Then it would have been"

Moo goo gai (frying) pan.

207 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:49:36pm

re: #142 EmmmieG

Some ADHD medications can cause children to lose their appetites, which can be a problem. My nephew dropped below my son in skinniness, and that's nearly impossible, as my son has a negative body-fat percent.

Oh boy..
I agree with you.. Most ADHD meds are nothing but pure speed.. For some people speed mellows people out cause of the chemical imbalance in their system..
I had another method with my hyper active 5 brats..
After dinner on the court you are crying to mom and going to bed early cause I will wear your ass out.. You spend 40 minutes on the court.. You are done..
To this day.. Jordan my EX-Marine Son Has never.. And I mean never Beat me in HORSE.. He doesn't have the stroke.. But stand in the lane when he is driving and he will knock you the fuck out...
I do it for him..Just because when he was 13 I drove the lane and he stood there...and send him crying into the house.. I owe him that...

208 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:49:40pm

re: #197 jaunte

I wonder if they've looked for any dinosaur bones up there.

They already have.

209 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:49:50pm

re: #206 EmmmieG

Moo goo pan.

He had forgotten the gai. Then it would have been"

Moo goo gai (frying) pan.

I got it now!

210 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:49:55pm

re: #203 windsagio

A tiny minority are religious homeschoolers. We'll probably survive without them, its just a pity for the kids.

I pity your kids, if you ever have any

211 brookly red  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:50:21pm

re: #200 Mosh

Well said. Our government cannot allow students to fall behind in critical fields of math and science, especially in this globalized, tech-based economy.

Yeah! exactly that is why we are closing (or trying to close) 19 under-preforming schools in NYC

212 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:50:29pm

re: #201 albusteve

With apologies to Darthstar,

Judgmental and invasive? Cool! I've never been called judgmental and invasive before! Updinged for originality.

213 SteveC  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:50:38pm

re: #197 jaunte

I wonder if they've looked for any dinosaur bones up there.

Those are in Jurassic Park - everyone knows that! *rolls eyes*

214 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:50:42pm

re: #130 freetoken

Congratulations on an upding from our host! Never seen one myself before.
So with all due respect to what could go wrong at home, unregulated-
A reasonable regulation of the home schooling is the solution to the bulk of the problem you point out. Some parents live in a terrible dilemma. Stuck by economics in truly dangerous high violent crime areas. Private schools are out of the question. Home schooling, again reasonably regulated provees a haven to learn in. Some tough neighborhood schools are not teaching much at all.

Leave room for home schooling to fill in the gap in places like this. Parents that care may not have time to wait for better schools or a neighborhood turnaround.

215 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:50:55pm

re: #210 albusteve

That's just mean, Steve.

216 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:51:03pm

re: #212 windsagio

No apology necessary...LMAO.

217 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:51:53pm

re: #214 Rightwingconspirator

Congratulations on an upding from our host! Never seen one myself before.
So with all due respect to what could go wrong at home, unregulated-
A reasonable regulation of the home schooling is the solution to the bulk of the problem you point out. Some parents live in a terrible dilemma. Stuck by economics in truly dangerous high violent crime areas. Private schools are out of the question. Home schooling, again reasonably regulated provees a haven to learn in. Some tough neighborhood schools are not teaching much at all.

Leave room for home schooling to fill in the gap in places like this. Parents that care may not have time to wait for better schools or a neighborhood turnaround.

Vouchers.

218 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:52:12pm

re: #207 HoosierHoops

I remember my parents learning that my siblings' ADD medication (this was so long ago it was called just ADD then) had a street value.

219 Bingo.Long  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:53:16pm

re: #9 jamesfirecat

Forget teaching them about the right facts, if they aren't getting taught critical thinking then they're gonna find it hard to come to a proper conclusion for the rest of their lives...

Honestly schools need to drop one year of "English" in the sense of read books write papers on them, and have a semester that's all about critical thinking and how to properly draw conclusions from given pieces of data...

As a university "English" teacher, I can assure you that reading literature & writing analytic papers on that literature is one of the most highly efficient methods of practicing & refining critical thinking skills.

The true overall problem, by the time students get to college level, is an almost universal inability to write grammatically & orthographically correct sentences, and an equally poor ability to organize/structure writing for best effect. Both of these inabilities form blockades to the further development of student critical thinking techniques by limiting students' ability to express themselves in the language.

That said, an additional class purely devoted to critical thinking across the disciplinary spectrum would be welcome indeed, & would benefit students immensely.

How qualified do "home schooling" parents need to be? Sounds to me like "objectivity" is not a goal toward which they strive...

220 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:53:50pm

re: #218 EmmmieG

A kid I knew got his parents to put him on the stuff, then abused the hell out of it.

Nothing like a speed addict at 16.

221 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:54:10pm

Actual science is about finding Truth, which is one in any case, and not to worry.

Good night all.

222 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:54:16pm

re: #215 MandyManners

That's just mean, Steve.

too bad...what goes round, comes round...maybe people should save their phony pity for other people kids just because they disagree with the way they are schooled

223 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:54:18pm

re: #220 windsagio

A kid I knew got his parents to put him on the stuff, then abused the hell out of it.

Nothing like a speed addict at 16.

Oof.

224 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:54:30pm

re: #211 brookly red

Yeah! exactly that is why we are closing (or trying to close) 19 under-preforming schools in NYC

Y'all should consider a school choice program. It has worked well for under privileged students in D.C.

225 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:54:31pm

re: #220 windsagio

A kid I knew got his parents to put him on the stuff, then abused the hell out of it.

Nothing like a speed addict at 16.

*shakes head*

226 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:54:48pm

re: #217 MandyManners

Agreed. I do not think a few (or a lot) of education dollars amount to establishing a religion.

227 freetoken  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:55:23pm

re: #214 Rightwingconspirator

I am quite willing to look seriously at a major overhaul of what we call "public education".

HOWEVER, one of my (very many) suspicions about modern life (in America) is that problems with education have less to do with the institutions labeled "schools" and more to do with contemporary family life.

This is where I get into trouble with the feminists...

228 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:55:26pm

re: #222 albusteve

Phony pity?!

229 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:55:39pm

re: #222 albusteve

I was gonna be cool about it steve, but this subject involves my family, and kids I really like and feel for.


Forgive me for having strong feelings about it, when people I love are being hurt.

230 SteveC  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:55:46pm

Time to go, Lizards! Everyone have a good evening!

231 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:56:09pm

re: #228 Rightwingconspirator

it is original ;)

232 brookly red  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:56:11pm

re: #224 Mosh

Y'all should consider a school choice program. It has worked well for under privileged students in D.C.

I welcome alternatives, but why do you assume underprivileged?

233 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:56:12pm

re: #230 SteveC

Be well. See ya next time.

234 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:56:37pm

re: #219 Bingo.Long

As a university "English" teacher, I can assure you that reading literature & writing analytic papers on that literature is one of the most highly efficient methods of practicing & refining critical thinking skills.

The true overall problem, by the time students get to college level, is an almost universal inability to write grammatically & orthographically correct sentences, and an equally poor ability to organize/structure writing for best effect. Both of these inabilities form blockades to the further development of student critical thinking techniques by limiting students' ability to express themselves in the language.

That said, an additional class purely devoted to critical thinking across the disciplinary spectrum would be welcome indeed, & would benefit students immensely.

How qualified do "home schooling" parents need to be? Sounds to me like "objectivity" is not a goal toward which they strive...

Broad brush.

235 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:57:17pm

re: #219 Bingo.Long

As a university "English" teacher, I can assure you that reading literature & writing analytic papers on that literature is one of the most highly efficient methods of practicing & refining critical thinking skills.

The true overall problem, by the time students get to college level, is an almost universal inability to write grammatically & orthographically correct sentences, and an equally poor ability to organize/structure writing for best effect. Both of these inabilities form blockades to the further development of student critical thinking techniques by limiting students' ability to express themselves in the language.

That said, an additional class purely devoted to critical thinking across the disciplinary spectrum would be welcome indeed, & would benefit students immensely.

How qualified do "home schooling" parents need to be? Sounds to me like "objectivity" is not a goal toward which they strive...

Sorry for insulting your profession. I just feel that English classes got repetitive for me, but then maybe that was because as the frequent typos I've made and difficulty I've had getting my point across here shows maybe its because I wasn't learning anything.

If nothing else we should have a critical thinking class in elementary school, and the sooner the better.

Not sure what to cut off the top of my head.

236 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:57:25pm

re: #218 EmmmieG

I remember my parents learning that my siblings' ADD medication (this was so long ago it was called just ADD then) had a street value.

Holy Shit! I am so sorry...And yet..You turned out wonderful..
Regards

237 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:57:31pm

re: #232 brookly red

It's not assumed. Watch the video. I live around D.C. in Maryland. I've heard and seen a lot of horror stories about Baleu high school and other major D.C. high schools. The girl in the video used to attend Balueu.

238 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:58:02pm

re: #229 windsagio

I was gonna be cool about it steve, but this subject involves my family, and kids I really like and feel for.

Forgive me for having strong feelings about it, when people I love are being hurt.

I have strong feelings about it too...it's not your place to decide who is right or wrong in this matter...kids can be schooled anyway their parents see fit...but there needs to be a standard they must pass for a diploma...that is the issue

239 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:58:41pm

re: #219 Bingo.Long

Could you condense that down?

Are you saying that homeschooling parents can't teach logic? Or am I misreading this?

The homeschooling dad who teaches my sons' Shakespeare class labeled himself "The Grammar Police," and expects perfection. (Eventually, at least.)

240 brookly red  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:58:57pm

re: #237 Mosh

It's not assumed. Watch the video. I live around D.C. in Maryland. I've heard and seen a lot of horror stories about Baleu high school and other major D.C. high schools. The girl in the video used to attend Balueu.

I am sorry for the confusion, I meant the students in NYC...

241 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:59:03pm

re: #41 windsagio

Shudder

242 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:59:11pm

re: #235 jamesfirecat

My HS had a critical thinking/philosophy class. only about 8 kids in the whole school were even allowed to take it.


That being said, a great, and useful class.

243 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 6:59:26pm

re: #236 HoosierHoops

No, I meant it scared them. They thought of it as a medication for kids, and then learned that Ritalin can be abused and sold.

244 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:00:39pm

re: #243 EmmmieG

No, I meant it scared them. They thought of it as a medication for kids, and then learned that Ritalin can be abused and sold.

Whoops misread that!

245 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:00:49pm

re: #238 albusteve

I have strong feelings about it too...it's not your place to decide who is right or wrong in this matter...kids can be schooled anyway their parents see fit...but there needs to be a standard they must pass for a diploma...that is the issue

Even if they are indoctrinated into the anti-science world view the kids may grow out of it and begin rejecting their parents dogmatic thinking. In college I heard from tons of kids about how their parents where devout Muslims or Christians, once they got into college they began studying anti-theistic philosophers like Rand, Niche and scientists like Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens.

246 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:01:28pm

re: #245 Mosh

Oh lord, Rand?


words fail me.

247 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:02:02pm

re: #246 windsagio

God Hates Ayn! //

248 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:02:25pm

re: #247 Mosh

so does everyone else!

/sorry I'll be good

249 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:03:38pm

re: #248 windsagio

Anyone who has read Rand knows that she is a dumbed down version of Niche.

250 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:04:08pm

re: #246 windsagio

Oh lord, Rand?

words fail me.

Hey there are parts of Rand I agree with, she was against the government doing anything about Homosexuals even though she found them morally repugnant, she felt that Abortion was strictly a matter of being a woman's choice, she was militantly against believing in sky gods...

Though of course there was a fair bit of philosophy which seems to result from growing Russia, hating it, and thus wanting to all but literally hump capitalism's leg.....

251 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:04:20pm

re: #242 windsagio

My HS had a critical thinking/philosophy class. only about 8 kids in the whole school were even allowed to take it.

That being said, a great, and useful class.

That's the thing about objective thinking. Do you really want that for everyone? We don't want 5 year old kids to figure out for themselves what's right and wrong; we just tell them and they're doing well when they do as they're told. At 18, some kids should think critically, others are just too feeble to get it right. They'll critically, objectively get talked into joining a cult, or smoking lots of weed, or believing everything some charismatic prof like Ward Churchill tells them, or getting knocked up. Better for them to be subjective and afraid of an arse-whoopin.

252 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:05:19pm

re: #245 Mosh

You point out the larger structure of education. From kindergarden to high school, nearly everybody must agree on the curriculum, all very controversial and so quickly bland.

Then comes college and nobody is expected to agree with the curriculum.

253 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:05:21pm

re: #249 Mosh

also, I'm trying to be good, but... "Nietzsche"

someone downding me for bugging someone on spelling >>

re: #250 jamesfirecat

I laughed :D

254 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:05:23pm

re: #239 EmmmieG

Could you condense that down?

Are you saying that homeschooling parents can't teach logic? Or am I misreading this?

The homeschooling dad who teaches my sons' Shakespeare class labeled himself "The Grammar Police," and expects perfection. (Eventually, at least.)

I read Bingo.Long as saying there's a general problem with virtually all students by the time they get to the university level w/r/t those issues--a sentiment I have also heard from other university professors.

255 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:05:24pm

re: #251 keloyd

That's the thing about objective thinking. Do you really want that for everyone? We don't want 5 year old kids to figure out for themselves what's right and wrong; we just tell them and they're doing well when they do as they're told. At 18, some kids should think critically, others are just too feeble to get it right. They'll critically, objectively get talked into joining a cult, or smoking lots of weed, or believing everything some charismatic prof like Ward Churchill tells them, or getting knocked up. Better for them to be subjective and afraid of an arse-whoopin.

Well then should we make it a college level course?

(Haven't checked if my college offers any critical thinking courses and its a little too late for it now, last semester...)

256 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:05:28pm

re: #245 Mosh

Even if they are indoctrinated into the anti-science world view the kids may grow out of it and begin rejecting their parents dogmatic thinking. In college I heard from tons of kids about how their parents where devout Muslims or Christians, once they got into college they began studying anti-theistic philosophers like Rand, Niche and scientists like Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens.

yes, of course...the problem is getting them there

257 brookly red  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:06:15pm

re: #251 keloyd

That's the thing about objective thinking. Do you really want that for everyone? We don't want 5 year old kids to figure out for themselves what's right and wrong; we just tell them and they're doing well when they do as they're told. At 18, some kids should think critically, others are just too feeble to get it right. They'll critically, objectively get talked into joining a cult, or smoking lots of weed, or believing everything some charismatic prof like Ward Churchill tells them, or getting knocked up. Better for them to be subjective and afraid of an arse-whoopin.

well done.

258 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:06:49pm

re: #253 windsagio

also, I'm trying to be good, but... "Nietzsche"

someone downding me for bugging someone on spelling >>

re: #250 jamesfirecat

I laughed :D


" Everything in life I learned about Ayn Rand I got from playing Bioshock!"

(Not true I also browse TV tropes and a "So lets read Atlas Shrugged...")

259 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:07:20pm

re: #255 jamesfirecat

philosophy is really good for that actually >>

re: #251 keloyd

We had like the first IB program in the US, and only full diploma students could take it. Exclusionism was actually an issue in the school (the other kids resented us, and with some reason), but I have to admit you're right. Most of the other kids wouldn't have taken the freeform nature of the class and the lessons well. You needed to be self-motivated in a way most students aren't.

260 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:08:25pm

re: #258 jamesfirecat

I loved bioshock because it made me able to argue with Objectivists.

/I like arguing with objectivists.

261 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:08:49pm

re: #256 albusteve

yes, of course...the problem is getting them there

Usually most of them have a brewing, unconscious hatred of their parent's dogma.

262 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:09:19pm

re: #261 Mosh

Nothing will feed teenage rebellion as your parents being demonstrably wrong about something ;)

263 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:09:30pm

Of course, my mother should have just taken the Ritalin for herself. She was the source of it in our family. She has enormous talent, and the house is full of gorgeous projects, some of which are half-finished. The house, for example, is never quite done.re: #254 iceweasel

I read Bingo.Long as saying there's a general problem with virtually all students by the time they get to the university level w/r/t those issues--a sentiment I have also heard from other university professors.

We should go back to teaching grammar. No more "language arts."

The public school teacher who taught me how to right actually taught grammar during the semester she was supposed to be teaching poetry.

Frankly, I would rather have learned poetry (actual useful stuff, like meter and rhyming schemes), than the six weeks we spent discussing The Metamorphosis. Once you use the phrase "incest sexual issues" in a class of 10th graders, everyone's staring at the desk the entire class period.

264 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:09:38pm

re: #261 Mosh

Usually most of them have a brewing, unconscious hatred of their parent's dogma.

well you can't pick your parents and must forge ahead

265 MittDoesNotCompute  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:10:55pm

re: #210 albusteve

I pity your kids, if you ever have any

I know you don't particularly give a f**k, but that's not real cool, steve...

266 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:11:00pm

re: #227 freetoken

Okay yes combining single parenthood, short money and inadequate schools and you get.... What we have in places I worry about. Then we have the truly violent areas.

I feel one problem here in LA is LAUSD is too big in every measure. Geography, student population, demographics, I could go on and on. First overhaul-split it up into manageable pieces.

267 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:11:16pm

re: #263 EmmmieG

"Grammar in grammar school"

I guess they don't call it that anymore tho'.

Still, by the time anyones even bringing up Kafka, they should already know grammar.

PS: The Trial is better.

268 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:11:47pm

re: #265 talon_262

don't stress on my behalf, he's desperately fishing for a reaction.

269 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:11:54pm

re: #260 windsagio

I loved bioshock because it made me able to argue with Objectivists.

/I like arguing with objectivists.

Of course the important thing to bear in mind is that by the time Jack reaches rapture its no longer and objectivist society, that idea went down the tubes when Ryan took over Fontaine Futuristics.

But the inherent flaw of objectivisim can be seen in the "battle" between Ryan and Fontaine, in that "men of the mind" like Ryan and Fontaine who are both self made men beyond the shadow of a doubt, don't always see eye to eye.

This can be seen in real life with how Tesla and Edison were at each other's throats...

270 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:12:08pm

re: #261 Mosh

Usually most of them have a brewing, unconscious hatred of their parent's dogma.

Isn't that a kid's job?

271 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:13:37pm

re: #270 MandyManners

Hah!
The preachers daughter becomes an advocate for evolution and AGW.

272 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:13:55pm

re: #269 jamesfirecat

If I remember rightly, the argument made was that Rapture was doomed to end up like that, one way or another. Ryan/Fontaine just made it go faster.

273 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:14:50pm

**Basketball Break**
Vince Carter really pisses me off..
I have never seen a talent so great that pissed it off so easily..
I guess when you make 15 million a year it doesn't really matter any more..
I remember years ago...Damn what an athlete..I saw him jump over some 7' 1" Center once and just posterize the dude.. A thing of beauty...

274 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:15:45pm

re: #265 talon_262

I know you don't particularly give a f**k, but that's not real cool, steve...

right...it's okay for another poster to pity children but not me?...shove your double standard

275 webevintage  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:16:17pm

I just want to say Thank YOU to the posters here for having a polite discussion on homeschooling.
I have seen some threads get so ugly and when your lifestyle and educational choices for your kids are being called abuse it can be pretty uncomfortable to say the least.

Homeschooling worked for us.
It does not work for others in the same way that institutional schooling did not work for my son....too many issues.
He is happy, has a job where he is considered a hard worker and (hopefully) will be a fireman when he is old enough to actually apply.

BTW, my baby will be 18 in about 3 weeks.

276 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:16:55pm

re: #15 erraticsphinx

If they go to college...

Liberty U.

277 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:17:12pm

re: #275 webevintage

I just want to say Thank YOU to the posters here for having a polite discussion on homeschooling.
I have seen some threads get so ugly and when your lifestyle and educational choices for your kids are being called abuse it can be pretty uncomfortable to say the least.

Homeschooling worked for us.
It does not work for others in the same way that institutional schooling did not work for my son...too many issues.
He is happy, has a job where he is considered a hard worker and (hopefully) will be a fireman when he is old enough to actually apply.

BTW, my baby will be 18 in about 3 weeks.

good for you....kudos and well done!

278 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:17:50pm

re: #268 windsagio

don't stress on my behalf, he's desperately fishing for a reaction.

hahaha!....I don't give a shit what you think

279 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:18:07pm

re: #272 windsagio

If I remember rightly, the argument made was that Rapture was doomed to end up like that, one way or another. Ryan/Fontaine just made it go faster.

Yeah more or less.

Doubtlessly the fact that it was a city at the bottom of the sea made it that much more prone to coming apart at the seems as well...

280 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:18:34pm

hmm. An uneducated parent teaching her children. I distinctly remember from the Gospels where Jesus pointed out that the blind can't lead the blind or else they'll both end up in the ditch.

281 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:19:44pm

Semi-related to topic:

California students among the most successful on AP tests

In 2009, about 21% of California's senior class earned a score of 3 or higher on one or more Advanced Placement exams. The national rate was 16%. The tests are graded on a scale of 1 to 5, with scores of 3 and above accepted for college credit at many colleges and universities.

I am sure this is all SFZionist's fault.
/Dem thar pubic schols ar teh debils werk!

282 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:20:12pm

re: #9 jamesfirecat

Forget teaching them about the right facts, if they aren't getting taught critical thinking then they're gonna find it hard to come to a proper conclusion for the rest of their lives...

Honestly schools need to drop one year of "English" in the sense of read books write papers on them, and have a semester that's all about critical thinking and how to properly draw conclusions from given pieces of data...

You said it, I have always been consistently astounded by how so few people seem able to comprehend and understand what they read or hear. It is what separates the "supervisors" from the "flunky's" and why so many will never progress beyond dead end blue collar work.

Learning by rote and repetition as so many schools emphasize now does not help to teach the skills people need.

283 swamprat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:20:38pm

re: #211 brookly red

Yeah! exactly that is why we are closing (or trying to close) 19 under-preforming schools in NYC

Magical thinking; Bricks, wood and paint are not the causes of bad grades. Principles, teachers, books,...these are the sorts of things that should be addressed.

284 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:21:06pm

re: #276 Alouette

Liberty U.

Hi You! Did you see my post to you this last week?
Hope today finds you well.

285 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:21:11pm

re: #251 keloyd

That's the thing about objective thinking. Do you really want that for everyone? We don't want 5 year old kids to figure out for themselves what's right and wrong; we just tell them and they're doing well when they do as they're told. At 18, some kids should think critically, others are just too feeble to get it right. They'll critically, objectively get talked into joining a cult, or smoking lots of weed, or believing everything some charismatic prof like Ward Churchill tells them, or getting knocked up. Better for them to be subjective and afraid of an arse-whoopin.

I agree whole heartedly. I might recommend an interesting book to you. It is called The Educated Imagination by Northrop Frye (An important Canadian literary critic and theorist). Among other things one of the ideas he espoused was the notion of license (or licence in Canada). That before one can be permitted to think critically within the education system, one must display a sufficient grounding and mastery of the foundation skills being taught. I was actually thinking about it today as I watched a 200 post discussion of Marx on this web site and after discussing it for an hour, one of the debaters remarked "well I have not actually read Marx". It made me laugh. Sort of.

286 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:21:19pm

re: #275 webevintage
Thanks for saying so!
Building one of the home schools systems that yielded good academic scores was something that was part of my formative years. San Fernando Valley, circa 1976 on. I still respect Roberta Weintraub and Joy Picus for the tireless efforts. Joy became a LA City councilperson, and Roberta Weintraub had a famous career on the LAUSD board. We once drew thousands of parents, kids and a real TV network to a rally. My parents were big in the whole thing.

287 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:21:38pm

re: #108 albusteve

BO droolers...good description of liberals

Except that liberals actually believe in things like evolution, schools and science, you betcha.

288 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:23:23pm

re: #281 Slumbering Behemoth

I am sure this is all SFZionist's fault.

Scratch that. I forgot, SFZ teaches at a private school. Figures.
:)

289 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:23:25pm

re: #275 webevintage

I just want to say Thank YOU to the posters here for having a polite discussion on homeschooling.
I have seen some threads get so ugly and when your lifestyle and educational choices for your kids are being called abuse it can be pretty uncomfortable to say the least.

Homeschooling worked for us.
It does not work for others in the same way that institutional schooling did not work for my son...too many issues.
He is happy, has a job where he is considered a hard worker and (hopefully) will be a fireman when he is old enough to actually apply.

BTW, my baby will be 18 in about 3 weeks.

There are all sorts of reasons for homeschooling, and for many, homeschooling is the best choice. I am a wholehearted supporter of homeschooling for those who feel it is the best solution for their particular situation, and many kids absolutely thrive.

It is a shame, though, that many use homeschooling as a way to keep their kids in the dark.

290 swamprat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:23:43pm

re: #287 palomino

Except that liberals actually believe in things like evolution, schools and science, you betcha.

Include economics and you might get somewhere.

291 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:23:49pm

re: #279 jamesfirecat

I'll admit it made for a hell of an environment tho'


I'm wondering if the sequel will stand up at all to the original.

292 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:24:29pm

re: #287 palomino

Except that liberals actually believe in things like evolution, schools and science, you betcha.

So do many many conservatives, you betcha!

293 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:24:42pm

Would be nice if anyone in the current gop had the cojones to condemn this, or at least raise a few skeptical questions about it.

But when you've staked your claim as the Party of God, religious orthodoxy trumps science.

294 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:26:10pm

re: #290 swamprat

Include economics and you might get somewhere.

I think both parties could learn a lot about econ. Certainly you wouldn't let the GOP off the hook for deficit spending, etc?

295 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:26:25pm

re: #293 palomino

Would be nice if anyone in the current gop had the cojones to condemn this, or at least raise a few skeptical questions about it.

But when you've staked your claim as the Party of God, religious orthodoxy trumps science.

Condemn what?

296 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:26:32pm

re: #287 palomino

Except that liberals actually believe in things like evolution, schools and science, you betcha.

don't forget heavy taxation and big, intrusive govt....how'd you make out with the cash for clunkers deal?....got a nice shiny new ride on the taxpayers dime?...what color is it?

297 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:27:21pm

re: #289 reine.de.tout

My wife and I home-schooled our four. It provided a more flexible approach to their specific needs.

298 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:27:29pm

re: #295 MandyManners

Condemn what?

The outright rejection of science by homeschooling parents. It's a big problem.

299 cronus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:27:45pm

re: #293 palomino

Would be nice if anyone in the current gop had the cojones to condemn this, or at least raise a few skeptical questions about it.

But when you've staked your claim as the Party of God, religious orthodoxy trumps science.

Yeah, because people LOVE being told how to raise their children by politicians.

300 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:27:47pm

re: #289 reine.de.tout

I think home schooling would call for the same regulations as any other "private" school, apart from details about the size of classes.

301 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:27:53pm

re: #291 windsagio

I'll admit it made for a hell of an environment tho'

I'm wondering if the sequel will stand up at all to the original.

It was not impossible to build Rapture at the bottom of the sea, it would have been impossible to build it anywhere else!

Busy trying to beat it on hard without quicksaves or vita chambers...

302 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:27:59pm

re: #298 palomino

add *some* or you're gonna run into problems right quick :p

303 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:28:21pm

re: #281 Slumbering Behemoth

There is always more to the story when you talk about staistics..

California boasts one of the nation's highest percentages of public school students passing AP tests, but educators are concerned about a dramatic slowdown in the rate of students taking those college-level courses, according to an annual report released Wednesday.

The number of high school students taking AP exams nationally almost doubled from 2001 to 2009, but course enrollments are slowing, particularly in California, said Trevor Packer, vice president of the College Board...


Fewer California kids are taking the AP classes, and I'd hazard a guess that the ones who still do are more likely to pass the exams. It goes to the theory that student performance isn't a bell curve, its more a double bell curve with separate distributions for the prepared and unprepared.

304 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:28:43pm

re: #298 palomino

The outright rejection of science by homeschooling parents. It's a big problem.

It's their right.

305 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:28:52pm

re: #292 reine.de.tout

ROFL. YOu made me think of you channeling Summer channeling Sarah...

306 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:28:59pm

re: #296 albusteve

huh, i kept my infiniti...but let your imagination wander...and i guess cash for clunkers is worse than the 5 tril deficit from 2000-2008. i know obama's making it worse, but they both deserve blame.

307 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:29:16pm

re: #297 jaunte

My wife and I home-schooled our four. It provided a more flexible approach to their specific needs.

all hail!...good for you...more people should home school....I am impressed

308 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:29:18pm

re: #298 palomino

The outright rejection of science by homeschooling parents. It's a big problem.

And, not ALL home-schooling parents reject science.

309 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:29:19pm

re: #306 palomino

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

310 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:29:29pm

re: #297 jaunte

My wife and I home-schooled our four. It provided a more flexible approach to their specific needs.

Exactly. And I'm absolutely confident you did not use homeschooling as an opportunity to keep information away from your children.

Teaching is a very difficult job; I could never have done it, I have neither the talent nor the patience.

311 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:29:48pm

re: #299 cronus

Yeah, because people LOVE being told how to raise their children by politicians.

itz wirked sew fahr

312 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:29:55pm

re: #309 windsagio

nooo!!!

damn, it cuts out extra long words.

I curse Charles blog code for outsmarting me!

/prays this doesn't devolve into a bush thread.

313 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:29:57pm

re: #304 MandyManners

All the kids would have to pass the academic tests.

314 cronus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:30:08pm

re: #298 palomino

The outright rejection of science by homeschooling parents. It's a big problem.

Wrong. It's unfortunate. Children being physically abused or emotionally neglected by their parents is an actual problem.

315 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:30:15pm

re: #304 MandyManners

It's their right.

Of course it is. It's also your right to do a lot of other irrational things which are routinely criticized by politicians.

316 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:30:19pm

re: #298 palomino

The outright rejection of science by homeschooling parents. It's a big problem.

what business is it of yours?...I mean you have an opinion, otherwise what?

317 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:30:25pm

re: #307 albusteve

The Armydaughter called today very excited that she's been asked to be a judge at a local high school science fair.

318 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:30:56pm

re: #287 palomino

Except that liberals actually believe in things like evolution, schools and science, you betcha.

Sometimes.

You know all that tut-tutting and blogging and general disapproval we've done the last week while Sean Hannity, Rush and Fox & Friends all tried to outdo each other with soundbites claiming the blizzard = no global warming?

I've heard, and will hear again Al Gore and NASA heads on the prowl for more funding do the same thing during heat waves in the summer.

Liberals are no more scientific or objective than conservatives. Todays right wing whargarbl is an echo of the left wing whargarble of 2002.

319 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:31:00pm

re: #313 Rightwingconspirator

All the kids would have to pass the academic tests.

Wouldn't that be the same as dictating religion?

320 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:31:02pm

re: #300 Rightwingconspirator

I think home schooling would call for the same regulations as any other "private" school, apart from details about the size of classes.

It's my understanding that home-schooled kids must meet the same course requirements that kids in regular schools do.

The difference is that in this sort of situation, parents may indeed use the home-schooling as an opportunity to sabatoge the educational curriculum and requirements.

321 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:31:38pm

re: #315 palomino

Of course it is. It's also your right to do a lot of other irrational things which are routinely criticized by politicians.

And, it's the right of the parents to tell the politicians to shut the fuck up.

322 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:31:41pm

re: #303 Mich-again

I think all it means is that the students are smart enough and educated enough to place high on the AP tests, but maybe too lazy to actually take the AP college courses.

Still, California public schools are cranking out students that place higher than the national average by 5%.

323 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:32:05pm

re: #298 palomino

Define big problem? This thread topic addresses a rare situation.

324 swamprat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:32:21pm

re: #294 palomino

I think both parties could learn a lot about econ. Certainly you wouldn't let the GOP off the hook for deficit spending, etc?

granted

325 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:32:43pm

re: #299 cronus

Yeah, because people LOVE being told how to raise their children by politicians.

Who said anything about legislation? But if millions of Americas were homeschooling their kids that 2+2=5, wouldn't you want some pols to have the guts to stand up and say, "Maybe they should change their educational approach"?

326 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:32:51pm

Every state has different HS regulations. My state requires that the kids do the standardized testing at 3, 5, 8, 10th grades like the other kids.

I just wish they would pay for it.

Some states require you to turn in a curriculum plan.

California, I believe, is one of the most restrictive.

327 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:32:59pm

re: #303 Mich-again

There is always more to the story when you talk about staistics..


Fewer California kids are taking the AP classes, and I'd hazard a guess that the ones who still do are more likely to pass the exams. It goes to the theory that student performance isn't a bell curve, its more a double bell curve with separate distributions for the prepared and unprepared.

There have been some troubling stats about AP kids-- the idea behind the APs was that if you scored a 4 or a 5, you could skip the relevant intro class as a first year college student. But those kids haven't performed well by leaping into (say) a 200 level class in whatever subject. They performed worse than the kids who didn't take the AP classes but had taken the intro level classes at the universities.

I don't think this holds for science, but it did for history and literature. The problem seemed to be the one that Bingo.Long referred to; these kids were good at answering the AP essay questions (which are highly targeted and specific), but they couldn't write a college paper.

This was a while ago-- I'll see if I can dig up a link about it.

328 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:33:50pm

re: #317 jaunte

The Armydaughter called today very excited that she's been asked to be a judge at a local high school science fair.

bro...it never ends I think...my adult kids just keep blowing me away with their choices and the way they maneuver through life...it's just really far out for people like us eh?

329 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:34:01pm

re: #323 Rightwingconspirator

Define big problem? This thread topic addresses a rare situation.

Could we address that in those students who it leaves unprepared for life outside their parent's homes its a big problem.

Sort of like how not many people end up getting hit over the head by falling toilets, but for those people who do, its a big problem.

Also I'd be interesting in seeing some data on which way this is trending, are their proportionally more or fewer students getting home schooled these days?

330 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:34:38pm

re: #325 palomino

Who said anything about legislation? But if millions of Americas were homeschooling their kids that 2+2=5, wouldn't you want some pols to have the guts to stand up and say, "Maybe they should change their educational approach"?

Is that the case here?

331 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:35:13pm

re: #327 iceweasel

There have been some troubling stats about AP kids-- the idea behind the APs was that if you scored a 4 or a 5, you could skip the relevant intro class as a first year college student. But those kids haven't performed well by leaping into (say) a 200 level class in whatever subject. They performed worse than the kids who didn't take the AP classes but had taken the intro level classes at the universities.

I don't think this holds for science, but it did for history and literature. The problem seemed to be the one that Bingo.Long referred to; these kids were good at answering the AP essay questions (which are highly targeted and specific), but they couldn't write a college paper.

This was a while ago-- I'll see if I can dig up a link about it.

I scored well enough on my AP tests that I simply flat out haven't had to take any history or English classes to graduate.

332 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:35:14pm

re: #326 EmmmieG

Every state has different HS regulations. My state requires that the kids do the standardized testing at 3, 5, 8, 10th grades like the other kids.

I just wish they would pay for it.

Some states require you to turn in a curriculum plan.

California, I believe, is one of the most restrictive.

From what I've heard, the state is trying to forbid it completely.

333 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:35:18pm

re: #320 reine.de.tout

True. A few will always game the system. Some will reject the current curriculum in favor of their beliefs and some will treat school as daycare, nothing more.
I'll say this. Determined parents can overcome it all. Especially when there are 2 to share the effort. No disrespect to single parents!! (Like my Mom) But a healthy 2 parent effort is best.

334 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:35:38pm

re: #327 iceweasel

Hi You! No More shoveling snow at 7am next year...*wink*

335 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:35:46pm

re: #323 Rightwingconspirator

the question is how rare?

re: #329 jamesfirecat

very well put.

336 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:35:49pm

Speaking of science, the middle boy just got ahold of the science catalog that came with the most recent order.

Points to the ant farm. Yes?

No.

I have had fireballs and carnivorous plants and tadpoles on the counter. I have buckets full of electronic parts and this and that type of scopes. We dissected in the garage. I've stood outside and froze while we looked at the moon in a telescope.

No ants. Never.

337 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:35:56pm

re: #325 palomino

Millions of kids are being badly homeschooled? Show me.

338 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:36:09pm

re: #329 jamesfirecat

Could we address that in those students who it leaves unprepared for life outside their parent's homes its a big problem.

Sort of like how not many people end up getting hit over the head by falling toilets, but for those people who do, its a big problem.

Also I'd be interesting in seeing some data on which way this is trending, are their proportionally more or fewer students getting home schooled these days?

sure...speak up...show us some google fu

339 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:36:46pm

re: #337 Rightwingconspirator

In Oregon, the HS'ers outscore the public school kids on the tests.

340 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:36:58pm

re: #337 Rightwingconspirator

Millions of kids are being badly homeschooled? Show me.

He said "if".

341 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:37:06pm

re: #329 jamesfirecat

Good question, one that may not be easily sorted out with google.

342 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:37:06pm

re: #325 palomino

Who said anything about legislation? But if millions of Americas were homeschooling their kids that 2+2=5, wouldn't you want some pols to have the guts to stand up and say, "Maybe they should change their educational approach"?

Nah. We still need people to work on cars, or man the gas pumps and deep fryers.

343 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:37:16pm

Every parent I've known who home-schooled did it because they thought the public schoold would somehow ruin their child in one or another way. Some of the parents seemed reasonable and I'm sure meant well, but I doubt they had any background in the subjects they were attempting to teach. Mostly all religious folks. (I've met quite a few of these families coaching in youth sports for years) I think its a mistake. And all those kids who were home-schooled sooner or later talked with the other kids on the team about how they wished they could go with them to the real schools so they could be around other kids instead of their mom and brothers and sisters all day. I stayed out of those discussions.

344 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:37:41pm

re: #314 cronus

Wrong. It's unfortunate. Children being physically abused or emotionally neglected by their parents is an actual problem.

So anything not involving violence to kids can't be problematic? You might wanna rethink that. Problems are unfortunate, and unfortunate things are problematic.

It becomes an unfortunate problem when a country trying to compete technologically has by far the highest % of evolution deniers.

345 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:37:46pm

re: #339 EmmmieG

I have been all over google etc to find results from our thing in the valley. Do you have links by any chance?

346 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:38:17pm

re: #337 Rightwingconspirator

Millions of kids are being badly homeschooled? Show me.

it's just bullshit...another liberal lack of faith in the American parent this time...tomorrow it will be another 'group' that needs the state to lead them...and so it goes

347 cronus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:38:42pm

re: #325 palomino

Who said anything about legislation?

Not me.

But if millions of Americas were homeschooling their kids that 2+2=5, wouldn't you want some pols to have the guts to stand up and say, "Maybe they should change their educational approach"?

I would. But since most politicians have done such a bang up job on public education they are probably not in much of a position to lecture parents on curriculum.

348 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:38:59pm

re: #316 albusteve

what business is it of yours?...I mean you have an opinion, otherwise what?

OK, nothing is anybody's business. Why are we here?

349 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:39:33pm

re: #348 palomino

OK, nothing is anybody's business. Why are we here?

I'm here for the muffins.

350 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:39:53pm

re: #340 MandyManners

Whoops. My bad. Thx.

351 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:40:02pm

re: #349 MandyManners

Pie?
Is there pie?

352 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:40:05pm

re: #348 palomino

Its not the subject of the thread or anything.


/oh wait it is! I guess we're not supposed to give opinions on the subject at hand.

353 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:40:19pm

re: #322 Slumbering Behemoth

Still, California public schools are cranking out students that place higher than the national average by 5%.

And if the number of kids who take the classes keeps dwindling, eventually there will be 10 kids who all pass the exam. Then CA can brag about the 100% pass rate I guess.

354 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:40:28pm

re: #343 Mich-again

Then you have homeschoolers like this.

355 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:40:37pm

re: #348 palomino

OK, nothing is anybody's business. Why are we here?

as for you, I assume it's to convince me of the magic powers of govt to solve problems...most of the rest just want to slam pundits 24/7

356 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:40:45pm

re: #334 HoosierHoops

Hi You! No More shoveling snow at 7am next year...*wink*

Hey cutie! I bet Winston is looking forward to that too. Do you have little booties for him in the snow too?

357 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:40:50pm

re: #341 Rightwingconspirator

Good question, one that may not be easily sorted out with google.

Looks like 850,000 as of eleven years ago.

[Link: homeschooling.suite101.com...]

And it was only 50,000 in 1985, that's more than a ten fold increase.....


Not promising stuff let me see if I can find something more recent....

358 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:41:02pm

re: #321 MandyManners

And, it's the right of the parents to tell the politicians to shut the fuck up.

Of course, that's always true. But do you really want to live in a country where no member of an entire party has the guts to criticize creationism?

359 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:41:12pm

re: #349 MandyManners

I'm here for the muffins.

I dig pots and pans

360 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:41:15pm

re: #342 Slumbering Behemoth

Nah. We still need people to work on cars, or man the gas pumps and deep fryers.

Somebody has to clean the toilets in Rapture.

361 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:41:18pm

re: #350 Rightwingconspirator

Whoops. My bad. Thx.

I had to read it twice to keep my jaw from dropping.

362 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:41:24pm

re: #346 albusteve

There is far too much truth to that. Thinking of the state as the first rather than last alternative. It's the community organizer Chicago way.

363 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:41:25pm

re: #327 iceweasel

There have been some troubling stats about AP kids-- the idea behind the APs was that if you scored a 4 or a 5, you could skip the relevant intro class as a first year college student. But those kids haven't performed well by leaping into (say) a 200 level class in whatever subject. They performed worse than the kids who didn't take the AP classes but had taken the intro level classes at the universities.

I don't think this holds for science, but it did for history and literature. The problem seemed to be the one that Bingo.Long referred to; these kids were good at answering the AP essay questions (which are highly targeted and specific), but they couldn't write a college paper.

This was a while ago-- I'll see if I can dig up a link about it.

Daughter qualifies to take LSU AP tests, but she doesn't want to do it, and honestly - I'm not pushing her to do it, for just the reasons you state. I think there is something missed by not taking college-level courses, even if you already know much of the information. It's more than just the information, it's becoming accustomed to college-level work, as you indicated.

The ONLY place I think it works is with foreign language - if you know it well enough to place out of the first one or two college level courses, then you can do well in the upper courses (well, at least I did).

364 fizzlogic  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:41:25pm

Home Scholers for Perry

Is it a Texas thing or a home schooler thing?

365 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:41:35pm

re: #351 Floral Giraffe

Pie?
Is there pie?

I hope there's coconut pie.

366 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:41:47pm

re: #331 jamesfirecat

I scored well enough on my AP tests that I simply flat out haven't had to take any history or English classes to graduate.

You're a computer science major too, isn't that right?

367 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:41:53pm

[Link: www.hslda.org...]

This is the national homeschooling organization, so I am admitting the organization has a bias.

368 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:42:28pm

re: #366 iceweasel

You're a computer science major too, isn't that right?

Yeah.

369 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:42:37pm

re: #354 Slumbering Behemoth

Then you have homeschoolers like this.

*arf*

370 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:42:46pm

re: #251 keloyd

That's the thing about objective thinking. Do you really want that for everyone? We don't want 5 year old kids to figure out for themselves what's right and wrong; we just tell them and they're doing well when they do as they're told. At 18, some kids should think critically, others are just too feeble to get it right. They'll critically, objectively get talked into joining a cult, or smoking lots of weed, or believing everything some charismatic prof like Ward Churchill tells them, or getting knocked up. Better for them to be subjective and afraid of an arse-whoopin.

For all the talk of "critical thinking skills", there's not enough talk of "on what basis?" A mind that's all skepticism is like a knife that's all blade and no handle.

You cannot go on ‘explaining away’ forever: you will find that you have explained explanation itself away. You cannot go on ‘seeing through’ things forever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it. It is good that the window should be transparent, because the street or garden beyond is opaque. How if you saw through the garden too? It is no use trying to ‘see through’ first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To ‘see through’ all things is the same as not to see.
-- C. S. Lewis

371 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:43:26pm

re: #362 Rightwingconspirator

There is far too much truth to that. Thinking of the state as the first rather than last alternative. It's the community organizer Chicago way.

yup...or the problem rather than the solution...whatever, they can't get it

372 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:43:38pm

re: #360 jamesfirecat

Somebody has to clean the toilets in Rapture.

If you're playing Bioshock 2, I have one request: NO SPOILERS!

At least not without a ***SPOILER ALERT!***

373 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:43:45pm

re: #364 trendsurfer

Home Scholers for Perry

Is it a Texas thing or a home schooler thing?

Probably more a Texas political thing. Tthe Texas Home School coalition is a conservative lobbying group that's focused on putting its people onto the state board of education.
[Link: www.thsc.org...]

374 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:44:05pm

re: #357 jamesfirecat

From your link-Fascinating thanks!!

* 33 percent object to the unavailability of religious instruction
* 30 percent felt their public school had poor learning environments
* 14 percent objected to what the schools taught
* 11 percent felt their children were not challenged at school
* 9 percent had morality issues

In 2004, the Fraser Institutes reports safety issues are at the top of parents concerns. According to the report 1 in 4 American public school students were the victims of a violent act in the vicinity of their school. This was backed up by numerous school shootings in both the United States and Canada.

Read more at Suite101: Trends and Growth in Homeschooling: What Do the Statistics On Home Education Say? [Link: homeschooling.suite101.com...]

375 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:44:19pm

re: #355 albusteve

as for you, I assume it's to convince me of the magic powers of govt to solve problems...most of the rest just want to slam pundits 24/7

No, I'm very specifically talking about evolution deniers.

376 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:44:48pm

re: #372 Slumbering Behemoth

If you're playing Bioshock 2, I have one request: NO SPOILERS!

At least not without a ***SPOILER ALERT!***

Don't worry I'm not getting it till my Birthday which is over 30 days away in March.

377 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:45:00pm

re: #369 MandyManners

*arf*

Well now Mandy. I'm not into that sort of thing, but if you are I guess I can be a little flexible. ;)

378 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:45:06pm

re: #284 HoosierHoops

Hi You! Did you see my post to you this last week?
Hope today finds you well.

Something about the prayer list?

379 cronus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:45:08pm

re: #344 palomino

So anything not involving violence to kids can't be problematic? You might wanna rethink that. Problems are unfortunate, and unfortunate things are problematic.

It becomes an unfortunate problem when a country trying to compete technologically has by far the highest % of evolution deniers.

And you think this will be improved by politicians calling out home schoolers? Good luck with that.

I'm guessing that the lack of future U.S. technological competitiveness will largely be a result of the public education system failing to prepare students in math and science.

380 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:45:24pm

re: #376 jamesfirecat

I'm gonna wait a while before playing it, the first one gave me wicked motion sickness, so I'll wait and take it a bit at a time.

381 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:45:44pm

re: #342 Slumbering Behemoth

Nah. We still need people to work on cars, or man the gas pumps and deep fryers.

You think it doesn't take brains to work on cars? It's not the same as getting a PhD in Recontextualized Homologies of Homologized Recontextualizations, I know, but still...

382 Kruk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:46:23pm

re: #73 SpaceJesus

apparently stonewall jackson is a favorite fixture in homeschooling publications because of his strong religious convictions. who cares that he fought for the confederacy to prolong and maintain slavery right?

But....but.....the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery! It was all about States' Rights.

//

383 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:46:33pm

re: #377 Slumbering Behemoth

Well now Mandy. I'm not into that sort of thing, but if you are I guess I can be a little flexible. ;)

Well, no.

384 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:46:37pm

re: #368 jamesfirecat

Yeah.

mmmm
Good for you..I'm a global System Admin..
What are your goals?

385 swamprat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:46:59pm

re: #298 palomino

The outright rejection of science by homeschooling parents. It's a big problem.

Amazing that most home schoolers test out higher. Fundie parents teaching their own children is a tremendous boogey-man for some people. But if the children aren't taught what is tested by the state, they will fail. And then, somewhere, a young person will be asking that question most feared by Christians and atheists alike;

"WOULD YOU LIKE FRIES WITH THAT, PRAISE THE LORD?"

386 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:47:04pm

The percentage of the school-age population that was home-schooled increased from 2.2% in 2003 to 2.9% in 2007.
[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

387 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:47:09pm

re: #331 jamesfirecat

I scored well enough on my AP tests that I simply flat out haven't had to take any history or English classes to graduate.


Its a judgment call there. Sure you can test out of a class or two and save the time and money, but typically the classes you test out of would have been an easy A, which helps out the GPA. And if you have to continue in that same subject, chances are the HS AP class didn't prepare you as well as the College class would have.

388 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:48:04pm

re: #363 reine.de.tout

Daughter qualifies to take LSU AP tests, but she doesn't want to do it, and honestly - I'm not pushing her to do it, for just the reasons you state. I think there is something missed by not taking college-level courses, even if you already know much of the information. It's more than just the information, it's becoming accustomed to college-level work, as you indicated.

The ONLY place I think it works is with foreign language - if you know it well enough to place out of the first one or two college level courses, then you can do well in the upper courses (well, at least I did).

I think that's a good idea. I can't find the study I mentioned, because there's so damn much on the web about test performance and performance at the college level and my google fu is weak today.
I think foreign languages is one place where it would work for sure. Also IIRC it wasn't an issue for math or hard science.
AP classes can still be great, and for some people it might be a good idea (like jfc, who is majoring in something where this way he can fill up the time with more electives targeted to his field). But as a way to kind of leapfrog over the whole first year college experience, it doesn't seem to be a good idea.
Another issue for people entering college is just handling their work load too-- having to be in control of their schedule and set their goals on their own, while also being away from parents and doing all of the other learning that comes with college, not all of which is done in the classroom! So while I'm all for the students pushing themselves, sometimes they do need those basics (and the breathing room of taking them).

389 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:48:05pm

re: #375 palomino

No, I'm very specifically talking about evolution deniers.

privately that's their business, not yours...when the time come when they cannot get a high school degree because their parents are idiots and now they are too is where you can speak out with your criticism...set the bar high, make them acheive by public standards and leave it at that

390 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:48:08pm

re: #356 iceweasel

Hey cutie! I bet Winston is looking forward to that too. Do you have little booties for him in the snow too?

*wink*
Hope today finds you well..
Winston is freaked out about snow..

391 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:48:13pm

The two neighbor kids were homes schooled and not very socialized. i.e. never had any girlfriends as teens and are now both studying to be Priests.
I always wonder if they would have made that life choice had they been exposed to the secular world. It seems somehow unfair to not be exposed to the real world before deciding to leave it.
I admire the Amish for letting their kids get a peek at the other side before deciding to stay with the church. Many do, some don't, but it seems a fair way to make the choice.

392 fizzlogic  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:48:13pm

re: #373 jaunte

I hope you didn't miss the irony of the signage in the photo. :)

393 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:48:15pm

re: #374 Rightwingconspirator

From your link-Fascinating thanks!!

* 33 percent object to the unavailability of religious instruction
* 30 percent felt their public school had poor learning environments
* 14 percent objected to what the schools taught
* 11 percent felt their children were not challenged at school
* 9 percent had morality issues

In 2004, the Fraser Institutes reports safety issues are at the top of parents concerns. According to the report 1 in 4 American public school students were the victims of a violent act in the vicinity of their school. This was backed up by numerous school shootings in both the United States and Canada.

Read more at Suite101: Trends and Growth in Homeschooling: What Do the Statistics On Home Education Say? [Link: homeschooling.suite101.com...]

33% object to the unavailability of religious instruction in a public school?

Do they understand the reason for public schools?

And why in the world would any parent want to trust the religious instruction of their children to some sort of bland, one-size-fits-all Dept of Ed approved religion of some sort or another?
Good grief.

394 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:48:16pm

re: #373 jaunte

Probably more a Texas political thing. Tthe Texas Home School coalition is a conservative lobbying group that's focused on putting its people onto the state board of education.
[Link: www.thsc.org...]

Perry's a fucking joke. Already been gov. for 10 years, wants 4 more. He'll be gov. longer than FDR was prez.

Unfortunately, Kay Bailey Hutchison's rhetoric hasn't been sympathetic enough to secession so in TX terms, she's a liberal and will lose to the 60-year old man with 30-year old hair.

395 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:48:21pm

re: #376 jamesfirecat

Don't worry I'm not getting it till my Birthday which is over 30 days away in March.

I won't be getting it until I can buy it used for $29.99.

396 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:49:10pm

re: #384 HoosierHoops

What did you want to ask me? You can use the "Contact" link at my blog.

397 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:49:42pm

re: #395 Slumbering Behemoth

I won't be getting it until I can buy it used for $29.99.

Don't expect me to have a copy ready for you in April or May, I'm enjoying the first one enough that I want to keep replaying it going beyond my simple "electro Bolt+ wrench" combo...

398 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:50:07pm

re: #381 The Sanity Inspector

You think it doesn't take brains to work on cars? It's not the same as getting a PhD in Recontextualized Homologies of Homologized Recontextualizations, I know, but still...

I never said any such thing. It certainly does take brains to work on cars, but not a Doctorate grade education.

399 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:51:07pm

re: #391 avanti

When I started homeschooling, I was approached by an acquaintance who had been unsuccessfully homeschooled.

(It was actually one of the contributing factors behind the break-up of the parents' marriage.)

I listened VERY carefully to her. One of the problems was, indeed, isolation.

That's why we've got so many activities with other kids that we've scheduled. I figured she did me an enormous favor, although she doesn't really know it.

400 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:51:10pm

re: #379 cronus

And you think this will be improved by politicians calling out home schoolers? Good luck with that.

I'm guessing that the lack of future U.S. technological competitiveness will largely be a result of the public education system failing to prepare students in math and science.

Yes, our public schools suck. Does that preclude all criticism of people who deny evolution?

Politicians, you know people who are supposed to lead, sometimes speak out constructively even when there's not a legislative solution. But Republicans won't on this issue, out of fear of offending the religious sensibilities of their base.

401 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:51:34pm

re: #383 MandyManners

Well, no.

I think I see where you're going with this...

What's the safety word?

402 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:51:37pm

should home schooling evolution deniers be subjected to an 'evolution' law?...should they be punished somehow?...if not then what the fuck is the problem?...will they meet a state high school standard or not?...otherwise, where is the debate?

403 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:52:02pm

re: #393 reine.de.tout

True but one third of about 2% of the student population?
Thats about .65%. Imagine what else might be going wrong for groups of this size. Or larger.

404 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:52:19pm

re: #401 Slumbering Behemoth

I think I see where you're going with this...

What's the safety word?

w00t

405 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:52:59pm

re: #374 Rightwingconspirator

From your link-Fascinating thanks!!

* 33 percent object to the unavailability of religious instruction
* 30 percent felt their public school had poor learning environments
* 14 percent objected to what the schools taught
* 11 percent felt their children were not challenged at school
* 9 percent had morality issues

In 2004, the Fraser Institutes reports safety issues are at the top of parents concerns. According to the report 1 in 4 American public school students were the victims of a violent act in the vicinity of their school. This was backed up by numerous school shootings in both the United States and Canada.

Read more at Suite101: Trends and Growth in Homeschooling: What Do the Statistics On Home Education Say? [Link: homeschooling.suite101.com...]

Haven't checked it completely myself, does it say what percent of homschooler's had one or more parrent homeschooled?

406 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:53:07pm

re: #370 The Sanity Inspector

I can't get enough of C.S. Lewis. He's worth 10 of Ayn Rand.

407 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:53:40pm

Now, if you want see people who are effin' serious about education, look at South Korea:

On College-Entrance Exam Day, All of South Korea Is Put to the Test
Noisy Flights Can't Land; Offices Open Late To Avoid Traffic; Mothers Pray a Lot

"To many South Koreans, the admission tests are something that should always remain fair because education is the last fortress through which everyone, regardless of their current status, can ascend to a higher social status," said Choi Set-byol, a sociology professor at Ewha Womans University.

Indeed, South Korea's Education Ministry goes to extraordinary lengths to keep the national entrance test fair. Every year, it chooses about 400 teachers and professors to prepare and review questions, and it sequesters them all for weeks in a resort surrounded by police. Cellphones and Internet contact aren't allowed. What phone calls that are allowed are monitored. The brain trust can't leave until after the test is finished.

With the test preparers' sacrifice held out as an example, other South Koreans are quick to do their part to make sure the test goes smoothly.

Korea Electric Power Corp., the national utility, places about 4,000 crew members on standby for power emergencies. It checks every power line that goes to the roughly 1,000 test centers, and it dispatches at least one engineer to monitor each of these lines that day.

"We've got to do it because the people expect us to," says Yim Joo-hyuck, chief of the utility's distribution administration department. "It would be embarrassing if students blame us for failing their tests with power shortage."

I surf the blogs of a lot of western English teachers working in Korea. Their consensus is that the students aren't taught much in the way of critical thinking--the tests are mostly multiple choice--but the sheer work ethic they are compelled to take on in order to graduate puts them in good stead in the real world.

408 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:53:57pm

re: #398 Slumbering Behemoth

I never said any such thing. It certainly does take brains to work on cars, but not a Doctorate grade education.

Against a plumber, and an architect, both with a PhD!

409 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:54:59pm

re: #389 albusteve

I never said anything about legislation, but why is it off limits for politicians to criticize folks who deny evolution? Politicians do a lot beside legislate (sometimes legislate is the last thing they do); certainly it's not wrong for them to speak up supporting broad spectrum science education.

410 Kruk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:55:46pm

re: #153 jamesfirecat

Do you really want to play "lets look at all the stupid things/verbal slip ups every president ever has said at one time or another?"

"Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?"

""I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."

"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

Poor GWB. People always misunderestimate him. :(

411 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:56:32pm

re: #404 MandyManners

w00t

That one won't work, I say it all the time when I'm excited. How about "Fahrvergnügen"?

412 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:56:40pm

re: #374 Rightwingconspirator

From your link-Fascinating thanks!!

* 33 percent object to the unavailability of religious instruction
* 30 percent felt their public school had poor learning environments
* 14 percent objected to what the schools taught
* 11 percent felt their children were not challenged at school
* 9 percent had morality issues

As I read those statistics, it suggests to me that over half of those polled were really doing it for "religious" reasons as I think the "morality" group and the group that "object to what is being taught" are code for the same.

413 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:57:51pm

"Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."

Post some citations, preferably in video form please. I've seen the ob-gyns on Scrubs, all girl-doctors, all teh hawtness, gimme gimme gimme

414 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:58:21pm

re: #400 palomino
The public schools my children attend(ed) did a fine job. My wife and I have always been involved making sure their work is done and they are prepared. Funny how good parenting improves the performance of the schools. And when any kid who flunks out the parents are probably more to blame than the teachers.

415 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:58:23pm

re: #378 Alouette

Something about the prayer list?

Something very special for Israel at LGF...
I'm counting on you.. We are going to do something special here with your help soon in prayer..
Do not be afraid..We'll be praying for our Brothers and Sister during Sabbath.. And I have a Request to transfer our prayers to the Holy Land..
Kind Regards

416 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:58:43pm

re: #399 EmmmieG

When I started homeschooling, I was approached by an acquaintance who had been unsuccessfully homeschooled.

(It was actually one of the contributing factors behind the break-up of the parents' marriage.)

I listened VERY carefully to her. One of the problems was, indeed, isolation.

That's why we've got so many activities with other kids that we've scheduled. I figured she did me an enormous favor, although she doesn't really know it.

A excellent plan, let the kids be exposed to the good, the bad, and the ugly. If there faith is strong, they'll chose to follow it, otherwise let them chose a different path.

417 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:58:46pm

re: #410 Kruk

Poor GWB. People always misunderestimate him. :(

As the PSA says "I LEARNED IT FROM YOU DADDY!"


I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them.

418 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:59:18pm

re: #412 Petero1818

So we have good reason by at least the other half to allow home schooling.

419 cronus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 7:59:51pm

re: #400 palomino

But Republicans won't on this issue, out of fear of offending the religious sensibilities of their base.

/Or they won't raise it because people for some reason seem weirdly focused on the economy, national security, government spending, etc.

420 arethusa  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:00:36pm

re: #409 palomino

I never said anything about legislation, but why is it off limits for politicians to criticize folks who deny evolution? Politicians do a lot beside legislate (sometimes legislate is the last thing they do); certainly it's not wrong for them to speak up supporting broad spectrum science education.

Call me cynical, but many politicians have a bad habit of seeing folks with bad or erroneous or unpopular viewpoints as voters who vote, and who might vote for them, and who therefore must be placated, and far too often that takes precedence over everything else. (I don't understand it either.)

421 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:00:39pm

re: #402 albusteve

should home schooling evolution deniers be subjected to an 'evolution' law?...should they be punished somehow?...if not then what the fuck is the problem?...will they meet a state high school standard or not?...otherwise, where is the debate?

The fucking problem is that Americans are even fucking stupider than they have to be.

An evolution law is a red herring.

422 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:01:04pm

re: #419 cronus

/Or they won't raise it because people for some reason seem weirdly focused on the economy, national security, government spending, etc.

Don't forget if Obama was actually born in America and weather or not we should reinstate citizenship tests to let people vote? Those seem to have gone over real well with "the people".

423 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:01:47pm

re: #415 HoosierHoops

Something very special for Israel at LGF...
I'm counting on you.. We are going to do something special here with your help soon in prayer..
Do not be afraid..We'll be praying for our Brothers and Sister during Sabbath.. And I have a Request to transfer our prayers to the Holy Land..
Kind Regards

There is a link on my blog to transmit prayer requests to the Kotel, upper right sidebar.

424 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:02:04pm

re: #260 windsagio

I loved bioshock because it made me able to argue with Objectivists.

/I like arguing with objectivists.

Bioshock 1 is a criticism of Ayn Rand laissez-faire as Bioshock 2 is a criticism of the Marxist cult of personality.

/i think.

425 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:02:19pm

re: #409 palomino

I never said anything about legislation, but why is it off limits for politicians to criticize folks who deny evolution? Politicians do a lot beside legislate (sometimes legislate is the last thing they do); certainly it's not wrong for them to speak up supporting broad spectrum science education.

they can and do say whatever they want...they are golden, but in the end so what?...I don't give a shit about all the in between blather and tripe...I care about results and solutions...if parents want to teac htheir kids about riding T-Rex that's their choice, not mine or Pelosi's or even yours

426 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:02:27pm

re: #412 Petero1818

Since when is 42 per cent over half?

427 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:02:44pm

re: #402 albusteve

should home schooling evolution deniers be subjected to an 'evolution' law?...should they be punished somehow?...if not then what the fuck is the problem?...will they meet a state high school standard or not?...otherwise, where is the debate?

There is no debate from me that parents have the right to raise their kids to worship the spaghetti monster for example. It's their right. but I can sure comment on that choices possible harm to the kids.

428 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:03:23pm

re: #418 Rightwingconspirator

So we have good reason by at least the other half to allow home schooling.

well I have said it before and I will say it again. Not allowing it was never on my radar. People can do whatever they want short of abusing their kids. I am more concerned with a kid going to an IB private school who goes home and watches his father hit his mom than I am concerned about kids who grow up thinking God created the world in 6 days.

429 Kruk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:03:28pm

re: #210 albusteve

I pity your kids, if you ever have any

Downding for the personal attack.

430 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:03:46pm

re: #412 Petero1818

Oopsie. I missed your assertion that the group that didn't like what was being taught based that opinion on religion.

431 Racer X  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:03:56pm

re: #421 palomino

The fucking problem is that Americans are even fucking stupider than they have to be.

America has a fucking problem? Are they doing it wrong? Perhaps KY would help? And stay away from the butt - it just makes it hurt.

432 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:03:58pm

re: #414 Mich-again

The public schools my children attend(ed) did a fine job. My wife and I have always been involved making sure their work is done and they are prepared. Funny how good parenting improves the performance of the schools. And when any kid who flunks out the parents are probably more to blame than the teachers.

probably in most cases...I agree...the state is no substitute for parents

433 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:04:27pm

re: #429 Kruk

Downding for the personal attack.

I'm deeply hurt

434 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:04:38pm

re: #422 jamesfirecat

are you seriously linking those beliefs? Worry about the economy, spending and being a birther?

435 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:04:53pm

re: #428 Petero1818

well I have said it before and I will say it again. Not allowing it was never on my radar. People can do whatever they want short of abusing their kids. I am more concerned with a kid going to an IB private school who goes home and watches his father hit his mom than I am concerned about kids who grow up thinking God created the world in 6 days.

What's "IB"?

436 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:04:53pm

re: #431 Racer X

America has a fucking problem? Are they doing it wrong?

They're not doing it enough. That's the fucking problem.

437 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:04:59pm

re: #412 Petero1818

As I read those statistics, it suggests to me that over half of those polled were really doing it for "religious" reasons as I think the "morality" group and the group that "object to what is being taught" are code for the same.

Something seems wrongheaded about expecting the school system to inculcate morality. That above all else seems like it's the purview of the parents, after all. Seems to me that if the parents give their kids a strong moral foundation (whatever they personally mean by that) then it won't be shaken, and conversely, if they fail to a depersonal school system isn't going to be able to do it-- nor should it.

It's hard to decode these sorts of answers though. Couldn't 'moral' also be a code word for 'personal safety' issues, like drugs? It might not necessarily have anything to do with religious reasons so much as feeling the schools open to you are a 'bad environment', and not because they teach evolution.

Kind of reminds me of the polling call I got in 2004 asking me what was most important to me in a candidate. Values was on the list, and that was my answer, since it encompassed all of the other choices. Of course, I was not one of those value voters they claimed elected Bush-- I wasn't very fond of Kerry, for that matter -- but my answer was a consequence of how the questions were worded.
And my pedantry as well. Never underestimate pedantry.

438 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:05:32pm

re: #419 cronus

/Or they won't raise it because people for some reason seem weirdly focused on the economy, national security, government spending, etc.

God forbid we expect the largest govt. in history to do more than one thing at once.

439 fizzlogic  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:06:03pm
Imagine what kind of “evolution” she’s teaching her kids.

Was this posted yet:

440 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:06:04pm

re: #435 MandyManners

What's "IB"?

My sister, Inert Behemoth.

441 Racer X  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:06:15pm

re: #436 Slumbering Behemoth

They're not doing it enough. That's the fucking problem.

Agreed. I think everyone would be in a much better mood after a quickie.

BRB.

442 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:06:31pm

re: #423 Alouette

There is a link on my blog to transmit prayer requests to the Kotel, upper right sidebar.

Thanks.. bookmarked it.. We'll be taking to you soon

443 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:06:45pm

re: #426 MandyManners

Since when is 42 per cent over half?

Mandy, I am going to try to be polite here cuz you seem to have some personal investment in this that has you lashing out and not listening, but:

* 33 percent object to the unavailability of religious instruction
* 14 percent objected to what the schools taught
* 9 percent had morality issues
33+14+9 =

I will let you do that math....

444 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:06:49pm

re: #428 Petero1818

Good point. There are larger problems involved along with all this.

445 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:07:06pm

re: #421 palomino

The fucking problem is that Americans are even fucking stupider than they have to be.

An evolution law is a red herring.

Maybe we can elect a better public some day.

446 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:07:18pm

re: #421 palomino

The fucking problem is that Americans are even fucking stupider than they have to be.

An evolution law is a red herring.

it's not a red herring, it's an example...if Americans are stupider than they have to be then look to the corrupt NEA for some answers...they are the culprits, more so than stupid parents...then again they are all in it together

447 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:07:20pm

re: #440 Slumbering Behemoth

My sister, Inert Behemoth.

I thought I was your sister?

448 arethusa  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:07:24pm

re: #440 Slumbering Behemoth

My sister, Inert Behemoth.

Do you also have a cousin named Somnolent? ;-)

449 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:07:36pm

re: #443 Petero1818

Mandy, I am going to try to be polite here cuz you seem to have some personal investment in this that has you lashing out and not listening, but:

* 33 percent object to the unavailability of religious instruction
* 14 percent objected to what the schools taught
* 9 percent had morality issues
33+14+9 =

I will let you do that math...

One of our reasons was in that 14 percent, and it was political and ideological, not religious.

450 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:07:54pm

re: #435 MandyManners

What's "IB"?

International Baccalaureate

451 Stonemason  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:08:14pm

up-thread it was mentioned that 3% or so of kids are home schooled, and about 1/3 of that do so for religious reasons.

that number is rather small, to be quite honest, nontroversy small.

Test them at 18, make the tests harder, and fail those that fail, from home, public and parochial school.

Other than that, the family raises the child, not the village.

452 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:08:25pm

re: #443 Petero1818

Mandy, I am going to try to be polite here cuz you seem to have some personal investment in this that has you lashing out and not listening, but:

* 33 percent object to the unavailability of religious instruction
* 14 percent objected to what the schools taught
* 9 percent had morality issues
33+14+9 =

I will let you do that math...

Lashing out? No, telling you to fuck of and die would be lashing out.

BTW, I corrected myself in No. 430.

453 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:08:41pm

re: #450 The Sanity Inspector

International Baccalaureate

ooooh...sounds impressive

454 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:08:59pm

re: #431 Racer X

America has a fucking problem? Are they doing it wrong? Perhaps KY would help? And stay away from the butt - it just makes it hurt.

KY is actually ground zero for this. It's the site of the Creationism Museum, where you can see dinosaurs being ridden by cavemen, just like they believe it happened 5,000 years ago. It gets a million visitors a year, from among the 40% of Americans who disbelieve evolution.

455 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:09:14pm

re: #424 laZardo

Bioshock 1 is a criticism of Ayn Rand laissez-faire as Bioshock 2 is a criticism of the Marxist cult of personality.

/i think.

Its a criticism of over abudence of Altruisim and "the greater good" if I recall correctly.

456 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:09:35pm

re: #449 EmmmieG

One of our reasons was in that 14 percent, and it was political and ideological, not religious.

And, what about those parents who take tougher approaches than the public school.

457 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:09:40pm

re: #447 MandyManners

I thought I was your sister?

Yes, but your the white sheep of the family. Nothing "sleepy" 'bout you.

Bedroom eyes don't count.

458 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:09:52pm

re: #450 The Sanity Inspector

International Baccalaureate

Makes sense now.

459 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:10:03pm

re: #435 MandyManners

International Baccalaureate

www.ibo.org/

460 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:10:27pm

re: #453 albusteve

oooh...sounds impressive

They are.

461 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:10:50pm

re: #434 Rightwingconspirator

are you seriously linking those beliefs? Worry about the economy, spending and being a birther?

No.

Hell I don't know why I even posted that. It was a stupid attempt to be funny that wasn't funny...

462 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:11:08pm

re: #457 Slumbering Behemoth

Yes, but your the white sheep of the family. Nothing "sleepy" 'bout you.

Bedroom eyes don't count.

Baaa!

463 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:11:29pm

re: #459 Petero1818

International Baccalaureate

www.ibo.org/

Gotcha'. If there were one around here, The Kid would be in it.

464 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:11:30pm

re: #453 albusteve

oooh...sounds impressive

impressive? expensive for sure.

465 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:11:52pm

re: #440 Slumbering Behemoth


re: #450 The Sanity Inspector

TSI beat me to it; yeah, its essentially a glorified AP program.

466 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:11:59pm

re: #454 palomino

KY is actually ground zero for this. It's the site of the Creationism Museum, where you can see dinosaurs being ridden by cavemen, just like they believe it happened 5,000 years ago. It gets a million visitors a year, from among the 40% of Americans who disbelieve evolution.

well so what?...log off LGF and go educate them then...bitching about it here solves nothing...send us a card with an update!

467 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:12:10pm

This has been a very enjoyable thread, but I have some Photoshop work and blog stuff to do, keep the day job boss happy with his web marketing. Thanks to you all, this has been one of the best threads. No Flames, just good discussion.

BBL

468 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:12:24pm

Evening again, family all tucked away soundly and all that....
Hope everyone's doing well!

469 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:12:28pm

re: #466 albusteve

oy, again with the 'don't talk about the subject of the thread!'

470 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:12:33pm

re: #454 palomino

KY is actually ground zero for this. It's the site of the Creationism Museum, where you can see dinosaurs being ridden by cavemen, just like they believe it happened 5,000 years ago. It gets a million visitors a year, from among the 40% of Americans who disbelieve evolution.

Well, some of those visitors are there for the mockery value...I would visit it for that reason!

PZ Myers and various miscreant scientists and atheists and others visited it. Link.

471 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:12:37pm

re: #446 albusteve

it's not a red herring, it's an example...if Americans are stupider than they have to be then look to the corrupt NEA for some answers...they are the culprits, more so than stupid parents...then again they are all in it together

Nobody's proposing an evolution law aimed at parents.

The last part of your response is my point exactly. Public education sucks, but a massive retreat to home schooling isn't really a long term answer.

472 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:13:23pm

re: #454 palomino

KY is actually ground zero for this. It's the site of the Creationism Museum, where you can see dinosaurs being ridden by cavemen, just like they believe it happened 5,000 years ago. It gets a million visitors a year, from among the 40% of Americans who disbelieve evolution.

John Scalzi, the SF writer who's also a pretty good blogger, paid it a visit one time a couple of years ago. He was so stunned by the Cecil B. Demille-grade idiocy on display that he was struck nearly dumb, reduced to simply running through various conjugations of the word "horseshit".

473 Irenicum  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:13:26pm

It really saddens me to see this kind of home schooling going on. I used to live in a heavily home schooling area. And the science is atrocious, not to mention the history and social studies. I always considered home schooling as an option if I ever got married and had kids, simply because the public system largely sucks. It pretty treats as little automatons and takes almost no account of their individuality and different learning styles. I lived through the system not "getting" me, and I know too many others who have experienced likewise. But the answer isn't know-nothing-ism either. If you click on my icon and go to my blog (shameless plug here), look to to the upper right and the first thing you'll see is a listing of evangelical evolutionists. These are are devout Christians who nonetheless just as firmly believe that the science behind evolutionary biology is beyond reasonable doubt. Check the sites out. These are critically thinking, scientifically literate Christian voices rising up to say that faith and reason can get along. In particular, I highly recommend biologos and the Faraday Institute and their video series called Test of Faith. All this to say, there is a better way.

474 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:13:26pm

re: #462 MandyManners

Baaa!

re: #463 MandyManners

Gotcha'. If there were one around here, The Kid would be in it.

I knew it! You're a furry.

/teasing

475 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:13:40pm

re: #464 Petero1818

impressive? expensive for sure.

I have three degrees...I know all about expense...as for production, what can they accomplish?....how do they earn money?

476 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:13:48pm

re: #474 Slumbering Behemoth

my mind... has been blown.

477 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:15:49pm

re: #476 windsagio

This is where I take the "high road" for once, and not make a dick joke. But only just this once.

478 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:15:57pm

re: #430 MandyManners

Oopsie. I missed your assertion that the group that didn't like what was being taught based that opinion on religion.

Actually I didn't assert anything. I stated "As I read those statistics, it suggests to me that over half of those polled were really doing it for "religious" reasons".

I was very clear about the fact that I cannot say with any authority what was in their minds, but my reading of it was....

My reading of your last comment is that you really are having some problems being objective here tonight. But if you want to tell me to fuck off and die I wish you would so I can return the kind sentiments.

479 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:15:57pm

re: #467 Rightwingconspirator

This has been a very enjoyable thread, but I have some Photoshop work and blog stuff to do, keep the day job boss happy with his web marketing. Thanks to you all, this has been one of the best threads. No Flames, just good discussion.

BBL

Don't let us catch your work showing up here!

480 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:16:08pm

re: #471 palomino

Nobody's proposing an evolution law aimed at parents.

The last part of your response is my point exactly. Public education sucks, but a massive retreat to home schooling isn't really a long term answer.

I never said it was...I'm only standing on individual liberty...the obvious solution is to upgrade public ed...not gonna happen tho

481 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:16:41pm

re: #466 albusteve

well so what?...log off LGF and go educate them then...bitching about it here solves nothing...send us a card with an update!

that's a bullshit rhetorical strategy u seem to be fond of. when other people complain, it's just pointless bitching. but when you've got a beef, diarrhea of the keyboard ensues.

really, so you don't bitch and moan here about things that you could conceivably improve were you to log off as well?

482 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:17:13pm

re: #476 windsagio

my mind... has been blown.

we knew that...go pick up the pieces

483 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:17:13pm

re: #475 albusteve

I have three degrees...I know all about expense...as for production, what can they accomplish?...how do they earn money?

How do the schools earn money, or how do their graduates earn money?

484 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:18:46pm

re: #478 Petero1818

Actually I didn't assert anything. I stated "As I read those statistics, it suggests to me that over half of those polled were really doing it for "religious" reasons".

I was very clear about the fact that I cannot say with any authority what was in their minds, but my reading of it was...

My reading of your last comment is that you really are having some problems being objective here tonight. But if you want to tell me to fuck off and die I wish you would so I can return the kind sentiments.

Wow. Why would I want to say that? Bit of projection on your part?

485 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:20:47pm

re: #480 albusteve

I never said it was...I'm only standing on individual liberty...the obvious solution is to upgrade public ed...not gonna happen tho

In 100 years time, we've gone from teaching Greek and Latin in high school to teaching remedial reading in college.

...Of course, more people are in school nowadays than in our great-grandparents' time. In those days, if you were no good in school you could drop out after 8th grade and go to work in the brickyard or just stay down on the farm. Can't do that anymore...

486 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:21:03pm

re: #481 palomino

that's a bullshit rhetorical strategy u seem to be fond of. when other people complain, it's just pointless bitching. but when you've got a beef, diarrhea of the keyboard ensues.

really, so you don't bitch and moan here about things that you could conceivably improve were you to log off as well?

it is pointless and you know it if you know the history of public education and it's monumental failures despite trillions tossed at it...if you want to preach against home schooling this is hardly a real life forum to do that...talk is just talk....talk all you want

487 Kronocide  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:22:05pm

albusteve has another fan

488 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:22:46pm

re: #414 Mich-again

The public schools my children attend(ed) did a fine job. My wife and I have always been involved making sure their work is done and they are prepared. Funny how good parenting improves the performance of the schools. And when any kid who flunks out the parents are probably more to blame than the teachers.

Yeah. Parental involvement is the key no matter what, and no school, however good, can make up for the lack of it.

I'll still maintain that homeschooling needs to be more tightly monitored. I like the states like Emmie G mentioned where you have to submit your curricula, not merely pass some standardised tests every once in a while.

Also, I have a serious ongoing problem with the ways in which the excuse of 'homeschooling' is used to cover up for an abused kid's disappearance from school. I realise this isn't a problem with homeschooling per se, because those parents are completely neglecting the kid's education and lying, but I think it's a very serious issue and some measures do need to be taken about it. (as they do with child protective services more generally, alas)

489 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:23:13pm

re: #487 BigPapa

you know, I realized, he's added nothing but grousing, fighting, and bad feelings to this thread.


... which was probably the intention.


Still, its worth saying.


/and yes steve, I know you say you don't care, this post isn't for you.

490 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:23:21pm

re: #483 Petero1818

How do the schools earn money, or how do their graduates earn money?

my second and third degrees were in allied health...money makers unless you want a 6 figure income doing basically nothing of any importance....and can post to LGF from work...gotta love it

491 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:24:00pm

re: #486 albusteve

i was only criticizing home schooling that thinks of creationism as science.

as far as the parameters of the debate, EVERYBODY is here to bitch about something. telling people to log off because you disagree with their take is a little kid's playground move. like the guy said above, you're better than that (sometimes)

492 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:24:30pm

This clip seems to fit in this thread, somehow...

493 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:25:18pm

re: #478 Petero1818

My reading of your last comment is that you really are having some problems being objective here tonight. But if you want to tell me to fuck off and die I wish you would so I can return the kind sentiments.

Right or wrong, agree or disagree. But dude, if Mandy wanted to tell you to FOAD, she would do exactly that, in those exact words, without any hesitation.

No one has to wonder where they stand with Mandy.

494 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:26:20pm

re: #490 albusteve

my second and third degrees were in allied health...money makers unless you want a 6 figure income doing basically nothing of any importance...and can post to LGF from work...gotta love it

I didn't tell you to log off...I suggested it so you can seek your audience elsewhere...it's not here

495 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:26:22pm

re: #490 albusteve

The IB schools are secondary schools, so its all just about University preparation and setting the foundation. They are quire rigorous academically though. The kids work like dogs.

496 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:26:22pm

re: #463 MandyManners

Gotcha'. If there were one around here, The Kid would be in it.

I think the American equivalent of the IB is the Advanced Placement program.

497 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:26:26pm

Here's an interesting stat from 'New World Encyclopedia':

In 2003, the National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI) conducted a survey of over 7,300 U.S. adults who had been home-educated (over 5,000 for more than seven years). Their findings indicated that home education led to high levels of community involvement when compared to those educated in schools:
...
Home-educated graduates are more involved in civic affairs and vote in much higher percentages than their peers. For example, 76 percent of surveyed between the ages of 18 and 24 voted within the last five years, compared with only 29 percent of the relevant U.S. population. The numbers of home-educated graduates who vote are even greater in older age groups, with voting levels not falling below 95 percent, compared with a high of 53 percent for the corresponding U.S. populace.


(I did a look-up of the New World Encyclopedia sites's publishers at SourceWatch, and its connected to the Unification Church).

498 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:26:32pm

re: #493 Slumbering Behemoth

that is a bad habit I'm trying to break her of ;)

499 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:27:19pm

re: #489 windsagio

you know, I realized, he's added nothing but grousing, fighting, and bad feelings to this thread.

... which was probably the intention.

Still, its worth saying.

/and yes steve, I know you say you don't care, this post isn't for you.

looking back at your posts...most of them are nipping at me..what does that contribute?...you don't count

500 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:28:21pm

re: #437 iceweasel

Something seems wrongheaded about expecting the school system to inculcate morality. That above all else seems like it's the purview of the parents, after all. Seems to me that if the parents give their kids a strong moral foundation (whatever they personally mean by that) then it won't be shaken, and conversely, if they fail to a depersonal school system isn't going to be able to do it-- nor should it.

I disagree. Getting the right message (not just words, but through example as well) at school about morals, ethics, treating others well, etc is just as important as what the kid hears at home. The two reinforce each other. In my opinion morals are not a religious concept and I see no reason that the schools should avoid any sort of education about morals, leaving it up to the parents alone.

501 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:28:32pm

re: #495 Petero1818

The IB schools are secondary schools, so its all just about University preparation and setting the foundation. They are quire rigorous academically though. The kids work like dogs.

My kids' charter school uses an IB prep curriculum. If we stay with it, they'll finish high school early. We're also piling on extra schoolwork at home.

/ So we're another pair of the meanest parents in the world...

502 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:28:42pm

re: #495 Petero1818

The IB schools are secondary schools, so its all just about University preparation and setting the foundation. They are quire rigorous academically though. The kids work like dogs.

I know nothing about them, but am willing to learn...I thought IB was some trumped up degree

503 shifra  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:28:44pm

Just wanted to let the people here know that at one point LGF was used in our then high school daughter's home schooling. I used LGF to teach critical thinking skills, examples both good and bad are abundant, and it tied in nicely with my obsession on current events. Both our older daughters were given large scholarships to an honors university, both analyze and think critically, both accept evolution as a fact of life.

One poster noted that Asperger spectrum kids might be better off in school, I know a lot of them that get pulled out of school because they were treated so meanly by the other kids. That kind of socialization no one needs.

504 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:29:22pm

re: #503 shifra

One poster noted that Asperger spectrum kids might be better off in school, I know a lot of them that get pulled out of school because they were treated so meanly by the other kids. That kind of socialization no one needs.

I can vouch for that.

505 cronus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:29:42pm

Good night.

506 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:29:58pm

re: #498 windsagio

I won't hear of it. Don't make me unleash my avatar on you.

507 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:31:08pm

re: #506 Slumbering Behemoth

Thats one fight I"m gonna win, dammit :p

508 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:31:15pm

re: #503 shifra

Just wanted to let the people here know that at one point LGF was used in our then high school daughter's home schooling. I used LGF to teach critical thinking skills, examples both good and bad are abundant, and it tied in nicely with my obsession on current events. Both our older daughters were given large scholarships to an honors university, both analyze and think critically, both accept evolution as a fact of life.

One poster noted that Asperger spectrum kids might be better off in school, I know a lot of them that get pulled out of school because they were treated so meanly by the other kids. That kind of socialization no one needs.

That was me. My larger point was that it really does come down to the individual needs of the child. I'm sure for some Aspergers kids it could be terrific; for my one friend, it wouldn't have been a good idea.
There's no question that they have a hard time of it, in school or not.
BTW, congrats on your daughters! kudos.

509 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:31:15pm

re: #496 laZardo

I think the American equivalent of the IB is the Advanced Placement program.

I'll poke around and see what's available here in a few years.

510 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:31:29pm

re: #493 Slumbering Behemoth

Right or wrong, agree or disagree. But dude, if Mandy wanted to tell you to FOAD, she would do exactly that, in those exact words, without any hesitation.

No one has to wonder where they stand with Mandy.

Well perhaps I misunderstood when she said.."Lashing out? No, telling you to fuck of and die would be lashing out."

511 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:31:33pm

1,526 infected in NY mumps outbreak in Jewish community

This is affecting children and adults, including the majority who have been vaccinated. My son called today saying that several of his co-workers have been infected.

This was scary enough to shock my (formerly) anti-vax daughter-in-law in Toronto to get my grandkids vaccinated, but this super-mumps is infecting people who have already been vaccinated.

What this means is that childhood vaccinations must be reinforced by getting boosters for all teenagers and young adults.

512 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:31:34pm

re: #502 albusteve

I know nothing about them, but am willing to learn...I thought IB was some trumped up degree

Here.

513 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:31:56pm

re: #494 albusteve

I didn't tell you to log off...I suggested it so you can seek your audience elsewhere...it's not here

again, you're trying to set the parameters of the discussion for peeps who comment here, when it's not your place to do that. the title of the thread is pseudo-science and that's what i'm talking about.

since others have commented to me both positively and negatively, why should i seek "audience" elsewhere?

514 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:32:07pm

I think that the words morals and ethics are interchangeable. Is it PC that makes the word "morals" more religious centered, or because it is used in the Bible?

515 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:33:20pm

re: #509 MandyManners

I'll poke around and see what's available here in a few years.

You can effectively only go for one. If I recall the IB was mainly for international applicants to colleges both in America and abroad, while the AP is mainly for American colleges.

516 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:33:54pm

re: #510 Petero1818

Well perhaps I misunderstood when she said.."Lashing out? No, telling you to fuck of and die would be lashing out."

What's to misunderstand about it? You accused me of lashing out and I told you how I would indicate I was lashing out. Merely disagreeing with you repeatedly is not lashing out. Well, if you're not a narcissist, that is.

517 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:34:04pm

re: #511 Alouette

1,526 infected in NY mumps outbreak in Jewish community

This is affecting children and adults, including the majority who have been vaccinated. My son called today saying that several of his co-workers have been infected.

This was scary enough to shock my (formerly) anti-vax daughter-in-law in Toronto to get my grandkids vaccinated, but this super-mumps is infecting people who have already been vaccinated.

What this means is that childhood vaccinations must be reinforced by getting boosters for all teenagers and young adults.

Which also means hammering home the message that the anti-vaxers are full of it. There is likely a counter to this new mumps strain out there, but the loonies crusade against reason will mean that people will suffer needlessly.

518 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:34:39pm

re: #511 Alouette

I'm glad something got to her!

519 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:34:59pm

re: #500 Mich-again

I disagree. Getting the right message (not just words, but through example as well) at school about morals, ethics, treating others well, etc is just as important as what the kid hears at home. The two reinforce each other. In my opinion morals are not a religious concept and I see no reason that the schools should avoid any sort of education about morals, leaving it up to the parents alone.

the problem becomes, who's morals are preferred in public ed?...not to be disregarded but it will always be a fundamental problem...the very best to be expected is a combination of private guidance and public pablum...the heart and soul of learning is within the family, such as it is

520 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:35:11pm

re: #514 prairiefire

I think that the words morals and ethics are interchangeable. Is it PC that makes the word "morals" more religious centered, or because it is used in the Bible?

The word "morals" is used in the Bible?

521 TampaKnight  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:35:27pm

This entry is incredibly nit-picky, IMO.

522 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:35:34pm

re: #515 laZardo

You can effectively only go for one. If I recall the IB was mainly for international applicants to colleges both in America and abroad, while the AP is mainly for American colleges.

That's what I'll look around for.

523 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:35:58pm

re: #521 TampaKnight

This entry is incredibly nit-picky, IMO.

How so?

524 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:36:07pm

re: #514 prairiefire

I think that the words morals and ethics are interchangeable. Is it PC that makes the word "morals" more religious centered, or because it is used in the Bible?

Ethics are morals that went to college.

525 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:36:23pm

re: #520 MandyManners

In the Book of Proverbs? I know "righteousness" is used throughout the Bible.

526 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:36:39pm

re: #517 Dark_Falcon

Which also means hammering home the message that the anti-vaxers are full of it. There is likely a counter to this new mumps strain out there, but the loonies crusade against reason will mean that people will suffer needlessly.

Full of it hell...sounds to me like they are a public health threat..... but what do I know, I'm the one who sent my husband to stay with his mom so the kids could get chicken pox vaccines (he weird, has had chicken pox 5 or 6 times, at least one case caught from a freshly vaccinated niece)

527 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:36:40pm

re: #514 prairiefire

I think that the words morals and ethics are interchangeable. Is it PC that makes the word "morals" more religious centered, or because it is used in the Bible?

"ethics" sounds like that class where that snot-ass philosophy professor failed you.
"morals" sounds like something no one else gets to grade you on, but where you can constantly hand out failing grades to everyone else.

/

528 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:36:47pm

re: #424 laZardo

Bioshock 1 is a criticism of Ayn Rand laissez-faire as Bioshock 2 is a criticism of the Marxist cult of personality.

/i think.

Well without giving any spoilers. I wouldn't say Marxist. It is on the opposite end of the spectrum then the first but it's not really clear Marxism.

529 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:37:00pm

re: #520 MandyManners

The word "morals" is used in the Bible?

No.

530 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:37:03pm

re: #510 Petero1818

Well perhaps I misunderstood when she said.."Lashing out? No, telling you to fuck of and die would be lashing out."

Yeah, I read it that way too. Must have been satire.

Hi everyone!

531 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:37:04pm

re: #512 The Sanity Inspector

Here.

don't have time...my laundry girls are getting fussy...time is short

532 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:37:14pm

re: #525 prairiefire

In the Book of Proverbs? I know "righteousness" is used throughout the Bible.

That it is.

533 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:37:33pm

re: #529 The Sanity Inspector

No.

I didn't think so.

534 TampaKnight  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:37:36pm

re: #523 Dark_Falcon

How so?

It's focusing on a family that home schools for their own personal reasons, and teaches both creationism and evolution- it doesn't say which they teach to be TRUE, or whether they merely point out both to their child. I had both taught to me but I came out with an understanding of evolution as sound science and creationism to be a Biblical story.

They aren't pushing schools to teach it.

535 mj  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:37:58pm

Here's a very long article on the Texas Board of Education's latest attempt to rewrite history:

How Christian Were the Founders?

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

536 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:38:06pm

re: #513 palomino

again, you're trying to set the parameters of the discussion for peeps who comment here, when it's not your place to do that. the title of the thread is pseudo-science and that's what i'm talking about.

since others have commented to me both positively and negatively, why should i seek "audience" elsewhere?

bullshit...I am a huge fan of post whatever you want...gab away

537 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:38:08pm

re: #518 MandyManners

I'm glad something got to her!

This mumps outbreak is very scary, since 80% of the cases are in patients who have been vaccinated. We are not an anti-vax community.

It means that the childhood vaccinations wear off after 15-20 years and the vaccine must be re-administered to teenagers and young adults.

I don't think most people realize this. I didn't know this until just recently.

Everybody, go out and get your boosters shots!

538 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:38:19pm

re: #526 srb1976

Full of it hell...sounds to me like they are a public health threat... but what do I know, I'm the one who sent my husband to stay with his mom so the kids could get chicken pox vaccines (he weird, has had chicken pox 5 or 6 times, at least one case caught from a freshly vaccinated niece)

Some people never develop antibodies to some diseases. It's rare, but I have heard of it happening.

539 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:38:22pm

re: #510 Petero1818

Well perhaps I misunderstood when she said.."Lashing out? No, telling you to fuck of and die would be lashing out."

Stick around. If Mandy wants to tell you to fuck off and die, she will tell you to fuck off and die. She doesn't mince words, and she doesn't hold back.

540 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:38:50pm

re: #537 Alouette

This mumps outbreak is very scary, since 80% of the cases are in patients who have been vaccinated. We are not an anti-vax community.

It means that the childhood vaccinations wear off after 15-20 years and the vaccine must be re-administered to teenagers and young adults.

I don't think most people realize this. I didn't know this until just recently.

Everybody, go out and get your boosters shots!

Needles skeeer me.

541 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:38:57pm

re: #524 The Sanity Inspector

Ethics are morals that went to college.

I'd give a non-snarky answer (for me) and say that morals are private and internal; ethics are the external rules of conduct (and the justifications thereof) for a society or a philosophy.

542 Jadespring  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:39:19pm

re: #502 albusteve

I know nothing about them, but am willing to learn...I thought IB was some trumped up degree

re: #502 albusteve

I know nothing about them, but am willing to learn...I thought IB was some trumped up degree

I did IB in highschool. It was much better then the regular curriculum but it was a lot of work.

543 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:39:21pm

re: #530 Stanley Sea

Yeah, I read it that way too. Must have been satire.

Hi everyone!

Not satire. Narcissism I think.

544 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:39:38pm

re: #527 iceweasel

"ethics" sounds like that class where that snot-ass philosophy professor failed you.
"morals" sounds like something no one else gets to grade you on, but where you can constantly hand out failing grades to everyone else.

/

ahahaha!....good one...oof!
too funny

545 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:39:42pm

re: #536 albusteve

bullshit...I am a huge fan of post whatever you want...gab away

so glad to hear you say that, cuz what i really need is your permission to post here

546 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:39:45pm

re: #527 iceweasel

"ethics" sounds like that class where that snot-ass philosophy professor failed you.
"morals" sounds like something no one else gets to grade you on, but where you can constantly hand out failing grades to everyone else.

/

I'd say that last one is "self-righteousness", rather than "morals". We all need a life compass to keep ourselves from foundering on the shoals.

547 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:40:15pm

re: #538 Dark_Falcon

Some people never develop antibodies to some diseases. It's rare, but I have heard of it happening.

That's also why we were adamant about getting the kids vaccinated....for the most part chicken pox is no big deal, but in better half's case, it can be quite serious.....this way, no surprises = )

548 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:41:29pm

About vax's, I finally got my son's second shot for H1N1 yesterday. We had been planning on it with weather always getting in the way.
So, one less thing to feel guilty about.
That's a good question to ask my Doc about the mumps booster. I know she wants to give me a Tetnus vaccine. Those hurt.

549 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:41:46pm

re: #545 palomino

so glad to hear you say that, cuz what i really need is your permission to post here

don't be so insecure and drag me into it

550 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:42:24pm

re: #546 The Sanity Inspector

I'd say that last one is "self-righteousness", rather than "morals". We all need a life compass to keep ourselves from foundering on the shoals.

whatever, that was funny as hell...imo

551 Irenicum  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:42:26pm

re: #535 mj

That was a very informative article. I read that this afternoon and posted it a few times. Very well done.

552 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:42:29pm

re: #539 Slumbering Behemoth

Stick around. If Mandy wants to tell you to fuck off and die, she will tell you to fuck off and die. She doesn't mince words, and she doesn't hold back.

And she doesn't seem to read posts carefully either since she has 3 times tonight misrepresented posts of mine. Seems to me she may have a hair trigger this evening.

553 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:42:58pm

re: #539 Slumbering Behemoth

Stick around. If Mandy wants to tell you to fuck off and die, she will tell you to fuck off and die. She doesn't mince words, and she doesn't hold back.

Hence, Little Miss Mary Fucking Raincloud.

/IIRC she dropped the 'Sunshine' part a couple days ago.

554 palomino  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:43:02pm

re: #549 albusteve

don't be so insecure and drag me into it

oh, please don't say that, albu. i really want your approval.///////////////////////////

555 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:43:17pm

re: #541 iceweasel

I'd give a non-snarky answer (for me) and say that morals are private and internal; ethics are the external rules of conduct (and the justifications thereof) for a society or a philosophy.

That's fair. Yet, how often have we seen people in academic or public life prescribing ethics for the masses, while they regard morality as so private an affair that they refuse to impose it even on themselves?

556 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:43:45pm

re: #534 TampaKnight

It's focusing on a family that home schools for their own personal reasons, and teaches both creationism and evolution- it doesn't say which they teach to be TRUE, or whether they merely point out both to their child. I had both taught to me but I came out with an understanding of evolution as sound science and creationism to be a Biblical story.

They aren't pushing schools to teach it.

The problem is that articles like this promote the false idea that creationism and evolution can walk side-by-side. They cannot do so, because like Highlanders, There Can Be Only One:

557 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:43:52pm

re: #548 prairiefire

I'm a bit skeptical about tetanus boosters myself, it doesn't matter what you tell the ER people when they ask when your last one was, they're going to give you one anyway....whether you're current or not....
Not any fun at all

558 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:43:54pm

re: #540 MandyManners

Needles skeeer me.

I think I've told the story of the time that I reassured Boy 2 and Boy 3 that their check-up would not involve shots. Absolutely promised. No shots.

The pediatrician was screening parents that summer to see if we'd had a recent tetanus booster. My laster booster was...somewhere in the 80's.

Oh, they laughed. Oh, it was funny. Mommy got a shot. Hee hee hee.

559 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:44:05pm

Send a waaahhhmmmbulance.

560 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:44:34pm

The American Family Association wants to get Two and a Half men off TV.

"This "comedy" is not humorous and not okay. No excuses! "

Question ? If the above is true, and the show was not funny, why would anyone watch it anyway, and don't Christians know about remote control channel changers ? WTF, do they care about MY TV taste ?

link.

561 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:44:55pm

re: #546 The Sanity Inspector

I'd say that last one is "self-righteousness", rather than "morals". We all need a life compass to keep ourselves from foundering on the shoals.

See my 541 for the serious answer.

Morals are private, internal principles. Ethics are the philosophical system from which we derive our morals. For some that might be a theological system, for others not.

In either case, one has (or derives) a private life compass.

562 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:45:06pm

re: #558 EmmmieG

I think I've told the story of the time that I reassured Boy 2 and Boy 3 that their check-up would not involve shots. Absolutely promised. No shots.

The pediatrician was screening parents that summer to see if we'd had a recent tetanus booster. My laster booster was...somewhere in the 80's.

Oh, they laughed. Oh, it was funny. Mommy got a shot. Hee hee hee.

Even after I got my regular flu shot last fall, The Kid was still unwilling to get his.

563 TampaKnight  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:45:36pm

re: #556 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that articles like this promote the false idea that creationism and evolution can walk side-by-side. They cannot do so, because like Highlanders, There Can Be Only One:


[Video]

It's not cut and dry though, as evidenced by the scientific communities' inability to agree on differing theories about the origin of life. I reject the literal Biblical creationism story, but I believe that everything that exists was created by God.

564 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:45:45pm

re: #560 avanti

The American Family Association wants to get Two and a Half men off TV.

"This "comedy" is not humorous and not okay. No excuses! "

Question ? If the above is true, and the show was not funny, why would anyone watch it anyway, and don't Christians know about remote control channel changers ? WTF, do they care about MY TV taste ?

link.

That's James Dobson's group, correct?

565 prairiefire  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:45:47pm

re: #557 srb1976

Not fun. They got me 12 years ago when I was pregnant and had to do it. I'm not bringing it up with her when she goes through my long list of ailments. There's always something else to distract her! : )
Night, Lizards.

566 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:45:56pm

re: #519 albusteve

the problem becomes, who's morals are preferred in public ed?...not to be disregarded but it will always be a fundamental problem...the very best to be expected is a combination of private guidance and public pablum...the heart and soul of learning is within the family, such as it is


Well you can start out with "treat others how you want them to treat you" Thats pretty innocuous and shouldn't offend too many people. True that if the question turns to abortion or the death penalty or assisted suicide for terminal patients, I would not want the schools to promote an official opinion on the topic other than discussing what the laws say perhaps.

But if a child from a particular religion was being taught at home that the other kids who weren't from the same religion or gender were lower class people than them and it affected how they treated them, I would have no problem stepping in and pointing out why their parents are wrong and how their two-tier system wasn't going to fly in my classroom.

567 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:46:30pm

re: #555 The Sanity Inspector

That's fair. Yet, how often have we seen people in academic or public life prescribing ethics for the masses, while they regard morality as so private an affair that they refuse to impose it even on themselves?

That also occurs from people in positions of religious power, as you doubtless know.

568 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:46:38pm

re: #560 avanti

The American Family Association wants to get Two and a Half men off TV.

"This "comedy" is not humorous and not okay. No excuses! "

Question ? If the above is true, and the show was not funny, why would anyone watch it anyway, and don't Christians know about remote control channel changers ? WTF, do they care about MY TV taste ?

link.

I'd not let The Kid watch it but, I'm not gonna' demand that no one watch it.

569 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:46:43pm

re: #562 MandyManners

Even after I got my regular flu shot last fall, The Kid was still unwilling to get his.

There were no flu shots to be had this winter. They had to cancel our appointments to get them, and we had the flu before the shots came in.

570 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:47:21pm

re: #563 TampaKnight

It's not cut and dry though, as evidenced by the scientific communities' inability to agree on differing theories about the origin of life. I reject the literal Biblical creationism story, but I believe that everything that exists was created by God.

Evolution only governs how life has grown and assumed new forms. It does not handle the origins of life.

571 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:47:39pm

re: #564 Dark_Falcon

That's James Dobson's group, correct?

Yep. A few years ago they were pushing to censor pay TV channels like HBO too. They did not care for the Sopranos.

572 TampaKnight  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:48:06pm

re: #570 Dark_Falcon

Evolution only governs how life has grown and assumed new forms. It does not handle the origins of life.

True. Large scale mysteries like that hurt my head.

573 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:48:12pm

re: #569 EmmmieG

There were no flu shots to be had this winter. They had to cancel our appointments to get them, and we had the flu before the shots came in.

The Kid got H1N1 before that vaccination became available.

574 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:48:13pm

re: #569 EmmmieG

There were no flu shots to be had this winter. They had to cancel our appointments to get them, and we had the flu before the shots came in.

Both our little ones are september babies, so oddly enough, the Little Man got the flu before he was old enough to get a flu shot.....too funny, in retrospect

575 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:48:21pm

re: #511 Alouette

Now I am wondering, since the overwhelming majority of public/private schools require proof of vaccination, how many parents homeschool because they are anti-vaxxers?

576 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:48:40pm

re: #555 The Sanity Inspector

That's fair. Yet, how often have we seen people in academic or public life prescribing ethics for the masses, while they regard morality as so private an affair that they refuse to impose it even on themselves?


Paging Silky Pony, Mr. Silky Pony...

577 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:49:11pm

re: #575 Slumbering Behemoth

Now I am wondering, since the overwhelming majority of public/private schools require proof of vaccination, how many parents homeschool because they are anti-vaxxers?

There are exceptions granted in public schools.

578 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:49:22pm

re: #575 Slumbering Behemoth

Now I am wondering, since the overwhelming majority of public/private schools require proof of vaccination, how many parents homeschool because they are anti-vaxxers?


Excellent point.

579 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:49:27pm

re: #568 MandyManners

I'd not let The Kid watch it but, I'm not gonna' demand that no one watch it.

Seems a better choice than making adults only watch shows suitable for children.

580 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:49:46pm

re: #566 Mich-again

Well you can start out with "treat others how you want them to treat you" Thats pretty innocuous and shouldn't offend too many people. True that if the question turns to abortion or the death penalty or assisted suicide for terminal patients, I would not want the schools to promote an official opinion on the topic other than discussing what the laws say perhaps.

But if a child from a particular religion was being taught at home that the other kids who weren't from the same religion or gender were lower class people than them and it affected how they treated them, I would have no problem stepping in and pointing out why their parents are wrong and how their two-tier system wasn't going to fly in my classroom.

for sure, in a public environment, that is a role teachers have to assume...I have no disagreement there...well said

581 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:50:00pm

re: #577 MandyManners

that actually kind of surprises me, religious exemptions? I know some faiths are anti-vaxx (not for the normal reason of course)

582 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:50:06pm

re: #579 avanti

Seems a better choice than making adults only watch shows suitable for children.

Those people need better hobbies.

583 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:50:44pm

re: #575 Slumbering Behemoth

Now I am wondering, since the overwhelming majority of public/private schools require proof of vaccination, how many parents homeschool because they are anti-vaxxers?

Public schools will also accept exemptions if you have the proper paperwork filled out...it's a pain, but you can send a kid to public school without their shots

584 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:50:46pm

re: #581 windsagio

that actually kind of surprises me, religious exemptions? I know some faiths are anti-vaxx (not for the normal reason of course)

The Kid's school demands them. Another benefit of private.

585 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:51:01pm

re: #576 Mich-again

Paging Silky Pony, Mr. Silky Pony...


Think he could get away with arguing that his morals were his own private affair, no one else's business, nothing to do with the wider community?

586 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:51:34pm

re: #571 avanti

Yep. A few years ago they were pushing to censor pay TV channels like HBO too. They did not care for the Sopranos.

587 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:51:35pm

re: #557 srb1976

I'm a bit skeptical about tetanus boosters myself, it doesn't matter what you tell the ER people when they ask when your last one was, they're going to give you one anyway...whether you're current or not...
Not any fun at all

That does bother me too, but the consequences of contracting tetanus seem much worse. Much less fun.

588 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:52:00pm

re: #584 MandyManners

Oh absolutely! Good call >

589 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:52:05pm

re: #585 The Sanity Inspector

Think he could get away with arguing that his morals were his own private affair, no one else's business, nothing to do with the wider community?

You do know that isn't what I was claiming, right?

590 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:52:13pm

re: #585 The Sanity Inspector

Think he could get away with arguing that his morals were his own private affair, no one else's business, nothing to do with the wider community?

Only to a bunch of idiots.

591 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:52:23pm

re: #576 Mich-again

Sorry, he is unavailble at this time.
Would you like the soon to be ex-wife, or the soon to be wife?

592 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:53:06pm

re: #585 The Sanity Inspector

Think he could get away with arguing that his morals were his own private affair, no one else's business, nothing to do with the wider community?

sure...but the polls are where the rubber hits the road...he's done

593 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:53:06pm

Well, gotta bail. Cool down and class up your evening with this:

594 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:53:25pm

re: #580 albusteve

for sure, in a public environment, that is a role teachers have to assume...I have no disagreement there...well said

My wife is a teacher and once had a student teacher in her room from a wealthy Indian family who wouldn't work with one particular Indian kid in the classroom because he was too low caste for her. That didn't go over real well.

595 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:53:28pm

re: #571 avanti

Yep. A few years ago they were pushing to censor pay TV channels like HBO too. They did not care for the Sopranos.

Assholes. I don't like people trying to forcibly change my viewing habits.

596 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:53:43pm

re: #587 iceweasel

That does bother me too, but the consequences of contracting tetanus seem much worse. Much less fun.

THat I worry about less....our company nurse is authorized to do tetanus boosters (she handles a lot of that stuff for our volunteer first responder team)...so mostly I would just tell her if something happened = )

597 Racer X  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:53:56pm
598 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:54:10pm

re: #564 Dark_Falcon

That's James Dobson's group, correct?

No, the AFA is Don Wildmon originally (or some similar and equally inappropriate last name).
Dobson is the Focus on the Family guy, but the two organisations are tightly connected and have worked together lots.

599 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:54:20pm

re: #591 Floral Giraffe

Sorry, he is unavailble at this time.
Would you like the soon to be ex-wife, or the soon to be wife?

A mistress who marries her cheat-mate has done nothing but create a job opening.

600 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:54:26pm

Crab leg fans? Grab your butter!
Nom nom nom!

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

601 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:54:41pm

re: #589 iceweasel

You do know that isn't what I was claiming, right?

I guess I do now.

602 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:54:44pm

re: #577 MandyManners

There are exceptions granted in public schools.

Some, not all. At least that is my understanding.

603 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:55:13pm

re: #593 The Sanity Inspector

Well, gotta bail. Cool down and class up your evening with this:


[Video]

Great song, though albusteve would likely dismiss it as pap.

604 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:55:24pm

re: #602 Slumbering Behemoth

Some, not all. At least that is my understanding.

As someone noted above, it takes paper work.

605 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:55:32pm

re: #601 The Sanity Inspector

I guess I do now.

Then you didn't read me clearly.

606 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:55:47pm

re: #571 avanti

Yep. A few years ago they were pushing to censor pay TV channels like HBO too. They did not care for the Sopranos.

I guess they must like Tenors better.....

607 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:56:12pm

re: #564 Dark_Falcon

That's James Dobson's group, correct?

Focus on the Family.

608 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:56:15pm

re: #605 iceweasel

Then you didn't read me clearly.

Too sleepy, maybe...

/ really going, now.

609 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:56:21pm

I think they have a hobby. It's messing with those that don't share their view of the world.

610 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:56:40pm

re: #585 The Sanity Inspector

Think he could get away with arguing that his morals were his own private affair, no one else's business, nothing to do with the wider community?


Imagine if you will, if Obama had selected him for the Veep spot before the story came out about Edwards' love child. It could have potentially derailed Obama's campaign with the absolute circus that would have ensued. Edwards was such a pompous asshole he probably didn't even consider that.

611 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:56:41pm

re: #606 jamesfirecat

I guess they must like Tenors better...

More a fan of Baritones myself = )

612 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:56:46pm

re: #594 Mich-again

My wife is a teacher and once had a student teacher in her room from a wealthy Indian family who wouldn't work with one particular Indian kid in the classroom because he was too low caste for her. That didn't go over real well.

heh....Detroit?...say it ain't so...teachers are way cool tho...my dear old mom taught elementry for over 40 yrs....I am a huge fan of teachers, not their union

613 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:57:55pm

re: #603 Dark_Falcon

Great song, though albusteve would likely dismiss it as pap.

BIG PAP is RIPPING US OFF!

614 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:58:01pm

re: #609 avanti

I think they have a hobby. It's messing with those that don't share their view of the world.

That's why I said they need better hobbies.

615 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:58:24pm

re: #570 Dark_Falcon

Evolution only governs how life has grown and assumed new forms. It does not handle the origins of life.

Which mainly consisted of a near-infinite multitude of chemical reactions under a literal melting pot of different conditions to form, in an almost miraculous chance (quoting Dr. Manhattan), real, sentient-ish organisms.

616 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:58:52pm

re: #613 albusteve

BIG PAP is RIPPING US OFF!

Stop it with the pap smears!

617 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:59:00pm

re: #583 srb1976

Public schools will also accept exemptions if you have the proper paperwork filled out...it's a pain, but you can send a kid to public school without their shots

That is just plain wrong, IMO. A betrayal of the "public trust", so to speak.

I object to the goings on at the Folsom St. Fair type things because they are counter to the interests of public health. I will object to vax-exemption for public schools for the same reason.

618 blueraven  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 8:59:17pm

re: #181 studentpatriot

Just need to throw this out there,

Francis Collins was the scientist in charge of the human genome sequencing project at the National Institutes of Health. He wrote a book called the "Language of God" where he brings together his strong Christian faith (acquired after medical school) and his belief in evolution.

He needs to be mentioned in every evolution vs. creationism post.

It should also be mentioned that he is the Director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Nominated by Obama and sworn into office August 2009.

619 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:00:11pm

re: #616 laZardo

Stop it with the pap smears!

heh...good one

620 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:00:35pm

re: #600 Floral Giraffe

Crab leg fans? Grab your butter!
Nom nom nom!

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

but here's some bad news from the UK:

My rape terror at hands of Somali pirates: New ordeal for British hostage as yacht couple face being starved to death

Sad to say, this couple is probably going to die in the hands of those pirates. The UK won't pay the ransom, and a rescue is impractical.

621 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:01:18pm

re: #598 iceweasel

No, the AFA is Don Wildmon originally (or some similar and equally inappropriate last name).
Dobson is the Focus on the Family guy, but the two organisations are tightly connected and have worked together lots.

re: #607 MandyManners

Focus on the Family.

Thank you, ladies.

622 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:01:51pm

re: #620 Dark_Falcon

but here's some bad news from the UK:

My rape terror at hands of Somali pirates: New ordeal for British hostage as yacht couple face being starved to death

Sad to say, this couple is probably going to die in the hands of those pirates. The UK won't pay the ransom, and a rescue is impractical.

I'd make a crack about Chuck Norris but, this is just awful.

623 blueraven  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:01:54pm

re: #426 MandyManners

Since when is 42 per cent over half?

/ Since the republicans took over congress.

624 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:02:33pm

re: #613 albusteve

BIG PAP is RIPPING US OFF!

LMAO!

625 Racer X  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:03:36pm

re: #617 Slumbering Behemoth

That is just plain wrong, IMO. A betrayal of the "public trust", so to speak.

I object to the goings on at the Folsom St. Fair type things because they are counter to the interests of public health. I will object to vax-exemption for public schools for the same reason.

You're really not going to like this then.

626 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:03:53pm

re: #599 MandyManners

Sometimes it's just a matter of someone making it easy for the clean up woman.

627 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:04:50pm

re: #612 albusteve...I am a huge fan of teachers, not their union

Her district is having budget problems, not so much from the teacher's unions but the truly powerful entity in the district, the janitors, bus drivers and cafeteria worker's union. In the last year they've laid off 200 teachers in the district and closed schools, but they haven't shed any janitors, bus drivers, or cafeteria workers. Its such a joke.

The school board negotiates all the contracts. The non-teachers mostly live within the district. The teachers don't. Guess who a candidate has to suck up to to get elected in those much-ignored school board elections?

628 ILoveIsrael  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:04:51pm

I don't like creationism any more than the rest of you, but we're not talking about teaching creationism in public schools...these kids are home-schooled. You can think whatever you want of the parents, but it's their prerogative to teach creationism to their kids.

629 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:04:51pm

re: #622 MandyManners

I'd make a crack about Chuck Norris but, this is just awful.

Even Delta Force or the SAS likely couldn't do much. This isn't Beirut; no Western nation has been able to get spies anywhere near where these pirates keep their hostages. The pirate groups are often clan-based, and its virtually impossible for outsiders to penetrate them.

630 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:05:32pm

re: #626 Slumbering Behemoth

Sometimes it's just a matter of someone making it easy for the clean up woman.

I've never heard of her before. She has presence!

631 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:06:16pm

re: #594 Mich-again

My wife is a teacher and once had a student teacher in her room from a wealthy Indian family who wouldn't work with one particular Indian kid in the classroom because he was too low caste for her. That didn't go over real well.

I don't understand the caste system in India. (I've also never been to India yet).
I introduced two female (Indian) friends of mine at a party once. They both came to the US for college and both went on to get advanced degrees. Different schools but very, very good schools.

It was very embarassing. The friend I'd known longer and thought I knew well is from a very high caste. She put my other friend through a grilling. We (the Westerners) couldn't really follow the references, obviously, but it was a total snotty bitch slap from this friend.
Really shocking too, as I thought they were both very Americanized.

On a side note, the friend who behaved so badly later wound up in an extremely nasty divorce because her husband, who likewise seemed very Americanized and had some very high powered Wall Street job turned into a total raving nut after she had their kid (a son).
These were all Hindu, btw. None of it was religious in any case, it was all cultural.

632 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:06:16pm

re: #620 Dark_Falcon

but here's some bad news from the UK:

My rape terror at hands of Somali pirates: New ordeal for British hostage as yacht couple face being starved to death

Sad to say, this couple is probably going to die in the hands of those pirates. The UK won't pay the ransom, and a rescue is impractical.

They knew the risks & chose to go there, anyway. IIRC.
It's very sad, but adults have the right to make their own choice.
And, live with the consequences.

633 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:06:18pm

re: #628 ILoveIsrael

I don't like creationism any more than the rest of you, but we're not talking about teaching creationism in public schools...these kids are home-schooled. You can think whatever you want of the parents, but it's their prerogative to teach creationism to their kids.

People have the right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Teaching creationism should be closed off from anything being call educational and kept to religious instruction.

634 albusteve  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:06:26pm

I'm out like Sonny Banks in four...re: #624 Dark_Falcon

LMAO!

I still recommend Eric Bergerud's 'Touched With Fire' about early Allied combat in the South Pacific...nothing new, but a fun read anyway...I just finished it

635 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:08:49pm

The talk of naughty TV shows reminded me of a great scene on tonight's Survivor show. (hero's against villains) In one competition, one of the villains thought she'd unhook the hero's top to take her out of the competition. The cool part was that she got free and went to the end topless and delivered a double finger to the villain. Of course it was all blurred out, but my kind of gal.

636 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:09:23pm

re: #628 ILoveIsrael

I don't like creationism any more than the rest of you, but we're not talking about teaching creationism in public schools...these kids are home-schooled. You can think whatever you want of the parents, but it's their prerogative to teach creationism to their kids.

True. But teaching your kids bad science is no mitzvah.

637 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:09:31pm

re: #633 Dark_Falcon

People have the right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Teaching creationism should be closed off from anything being call educational and kept to religious instruction.

As long as they are claiming to teach both...it IS religious instruction, being done at home
I hate to be devil's advocate here, but they're within their rights

638 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:09:51pm

re: #631 iceweasel
Good story. Us ugly Americans, always assuming other cultures share our values. / I wonder if the PC multi-culti curricullum would frown on that custom, or would it teach the kids to embrace the diversity?

639 webevintage  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:10:55pm

re: #617 Slumbering Behemoth

That is just plain wrong, IMO. A betrayal of the "public trust", so to speak.


There are some kids who have a legitimate medical reason to be exempted from getting vaccinations.

640 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:11:12pm

If you want sad, tragic, and a waste.
Alexander McQueen was found dead today.
Fashion has lost a genius.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

641 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:11:29pm

re: #637 srb1976

As long as they are claiming to teach both...it IS religious instruction, being done at home
I hate to be devil's advocate here, but they're within their rights

Yes, they are. I think they are wrong, but they are within their rights.

642 Racer X  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:11:37pm
643 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:11:54pm

re: #631 iceweasel

That's brutal. Like you said, no culture has a monopoly on awfulness.

re: #638 Mich-again

erh, thats a bit of a stretch. I think the multicultural studies programs are more about teaching people "Black folks aren't stupid, even though they talk different." We have to get past the ugly lies before we can get to the ugly truths >>

644 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:12:04pm

re: #628 ILoveIsrael

I don't like creationism any more than the rest of you, but we're not talking about teaching creationism in public schools...these kids are home-schooled. You can think whatever you want of the parents, but it's their prerogative to teach creationism to their kids.


Should they get to teach their own version of math and chemistry as well? Some Bible literalists think the Earth is flat because the Bible mentions the "4 corners of the Earth". Is it OK to promote that idea for religious purposes?

645 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:12:08pm

re: #7 SpaceJesus

we need to get this kind of thing (home schooling) outlawed

I don't know about outlawing home schooling, but I was under the impression that they had to comply with certain standards of normal curriculum, otherwise what is the difference between this and not going to school? The latter is a legal requirement, is it not?

I'd reduce your downdings if that is what you meant.

646 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:12:59pm

re: #85 brookly red

OK I will buy that so parental involvement is good... at what point does teaching one's children stop being good and start being detrimental?

When they teach them crazy-ass mumbo jumbo and revisionist history. That's when it becomes detrimental.

647 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:13:32pm

re: #646 WindUpBird

go on AIM sir, I want to tell you something >

648 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:13:39pm

re: #640 Floral Giraffe

If you want sad, tragic, and a waste.
Alexander McQueen was found dead today.
Fashion has lost a genius.

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

Snuffed himself. Couldn't get over the death of his mother on February 2nd.

And yes, a great loss. His style was extraordinary.

649 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:14:23pm

re: #630 MandyManners

Indeed. I was trying to find the original, but gave up and went with that one. Not bad at all.

650 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:15:08pm

re: #575 Slumbering Behemoth

Now I am wondering, since the overwhelming majority of public/private schools require proof of vaccination, how many parents homeschool because they are anti-vaxxers?

I would guess a lot of them, maybe a majority.

651 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:15:29pm

re: #646 WindUpBird

When they teach them crazy-ass mumbo jumbo and revisionist history. That's when it becomes detrimental.

Quite Concur.

652 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:16:33pm

re: #646 WindUpBird

When they teach them crazy-ass mumbo jumbo and revisionist history. That's when it becomes detrimental.

There are many, many Liberals who home school their kids.

653 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:16:56pm

re: #645 Naso Tang

I don't know about outlawing home schooling, but I was under the impression that they had to comply with certain standards of normal curriculum, otherwise what is the difference between this and not going to school? The latter is a legal requirement, is it not?

I'd reduce your downdings if that is what you meant.

Actually, spacejesus and I have been over this point before. He really does mean that home-schooling should outlawed entirely.

654 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:17:13pm

re: #652 austin_blue

There are many, many Liberals who home school their kids.

And they end up dressing as prostitutes when they try out this 'school dance' thing.

/classic South Park

655 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:18:12pm

re: #654 laZardo

And they end up dressing as prostitutes when they try out this 'school dance' thing.

/classic South Park

Of course!

656 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:18:20pm

re: #646 WindUpBird

When they teach them crazy-ass mumbo jumbo and revisionist history. That's when it becomes detrimental.

That's a very sticky thing getting involved in families and what parents are and are not allowed to teach their children....I wouldn't want to give anyone the opening.....first it's no teaching creationism.....who knows what's next...no one wants that

657 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:18:31pm

re: #638 Mich-again

Good story. Us ugly Americans, always assuming other cultures share our values. / I wonder if the PC multi-culti curricullum would frown on that custom, or would it teach the kids to embrace the diversity?

Well, they were both the product of American universities, some of the best in the country. And they both grew up rich-- certainly by Indian standards, but also by American ones.

The 'lower caste' friend once shocked me because while she was showing me her garden and we were talking about it (I was into gardening at that time) she remarked how much of a pain the US was because she had to buy fertilizer-- she said in India, she would have had a servant shovel up shit from the street. The idea of just having servants to do everything for you kind of shocked me.

They both grew up with servants. But the caste divide was so huge that my other friend really beat her up over their 'class differences'.
Some of it might have been some female competition too; I'm not discounting that. The friend who got (verbally) beat up is super-gorgeous.

658 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:19:04pm

re: #646 WindUpBird
Most history is crazy-ass mumbo jumbo revisionist history. Our kids aren't lied to in the sense of facts that aren't fact, but the subtle choice of what we include, what's left out, what's considered important, all this makes for more spin than any NASA gyroscope ever.

659 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:19:15pm

re: #652 austin_blue

There are many, many Liberals who home school their kids.

I'm fine with home-schooling! As long as there are standards, and that kids are getting taught real meat. But like I said, it becomes detrimental when science is replaced with pseudo-science, and history is replaced with the kook Dominionist version of history.

it would also be detrimental to train an auto mechanic that the reason for internal combustion is witches in the engine block. :D

660 SeafoodGumbo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:19:20pm

iceweasel

I saw on a previous thread that you're a big Tom Tomorrow fan. I left you a comment at the end of that thread, but it will probably go unnoticed, so I thought you might be interested in this.

661 webevintage  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:21:47pm

re: #648 austin_blue

Snuffed himself. Couldn't get over the death of his mother on February 2nd.

And yes, a great loss. His style was extraordinary.

So damn sad.
I loved his designs, even the hoof shoe
[Link: thefashpack.onsugar.com...]

and the crazy ass reptile prints from last season.
[Link: www.polyvore.com...]

Oh and the awesome show he did with the models styled to look like handmaidens for the Cenobites.
[Link: www.designtopnews.com...]

Great, awesome and amazing.

662 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:22:21pm

re: #660 SeafoodGumbo

iceweasel

I saw on a previous thread that you're a big Tom Tomorrow fan. I left you a comment at the end of that thread, but it will probably go unnoticed, so I thought you might be interested in this.

I already saw it, sweetheart, and already downdinged you there too. Thanks for playing!

663 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:22:57pm

re: #653 Dark_Falcon

Actually, spacejesus and I have been over this point before. He really does mean that home-schooling should outlawed entirely.

Ah well, in that case...

There are plenty of circumstances where it is the only practical, or best, option, not necessarily religiously based. However I do think that home-schooled kids should be required to be tested to ensure they can comply with normal GED requirements, in all subjects before they are granted a GED. I find it hard to believe that children taught creationism and supposedly evolution, can pass anything but the simplest tests on the latter, and of course they would have to be doing so by lying.

664 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:23:55pm

re: #659 WindUpBird

I'm fine with home-schooling! As long as there are standards, and that kids are getting taught real meat. But like I said, it becomes detrimental when science is replaced with pseudo-science, and history is replaced with the kook Dominionist version of history.

it would also be detrimental to train an auto mechanic that the reason for internal combustion is witches in the engine block. :D

If you are teaching creationism at home as part of a home schooling curriculum, then you are not schooling, you are preaching. There should be standards.

665 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:24:42pm

re: #664 Walter L. Newton

There should be standards.

Something everyone can agree on!

666 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:24:55pm

re: #657 iceweasel

Well, they were both the product of American universities, some of the best in the country. And they both grew up rich-- certainly by Indian standards, but also by American ones.

The 'lower caste' friend once shocked me because while she was showing me her garden and we were talking about it (I was into gardening at that time) she remarked how much of a pain the US was because she had to buy fertilizer-- she said in India, she would have had a servant shovel up shit from the street. The idea of just having servants to do everything for you kind of shocked me.

They both grew up with servants. But the caste divide was so huge that my other friend really beat her up over their 'class differences'.
Some of it might have been some female competition too; I'm not discounting that. The friend who got (verbally) beat up is super-gorgeous.

Let me guess. One was Brahmin, the other Vaishya?

667 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:25:01pm

re: #664 Walter L. Newton

If you are teaching creationism at home as part of a home schooling curriculum, then you are not schooling, you are preaching. There should be standards.

Hello, Walter. How was your day?

668 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:25:59pm

re: #665 windsagio

Something everyone can agree on!

Yes, and if someone wants to include creationism in their home schooling, then that family should not be allowed to home school their children.

669 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:25:59pm

Singing in the Rain is on TCM but, it's time for me to be sleeping in the bed.

670 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:26:04pm

Good evening...er..uh morning..or something, LGF.
:)

671 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:26:14pm

re: #656 srb1976

That's a very sticky thing getting involved in families and what parents are and are not allowed to teach their children...I wouldn't want to give anyone the opening...first it's no teaching creationism...who knows what's next...no one wants that

They can TEACH children whatever they want. I'm not for a ban on telling kids the Earth is 2000 years old or Satan put fossils on earth to tricksie us or whatever. They can teach their kids that the moon is actually a giant Residents eyeball. But I was under the impression that home-schooling isn't just a free-for-all, teach whatever zaniness you like, there are standards, right? In theory at least... aren't there tests to pass?

It's not teaching creationism. it's teaching creationism to the exclusion of science. And if you're tecahing kids creationism to the exclusion of science, doesn't that mean that you're essentially failing in your role of teaching them science?

OTOH, I am aware that people will do what they'll do ;-)

672 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:26:50pm

re: #664 Walter L. Newton

If you are teaching creationism at home as part of a home schooling curriculum, then you are not schooling, you are preaching. There should be standards.

I don't know about other states, but my cousin was homeschooled for a semester (severe knee injury) and my grandparents (who were doing the schooling) had to submit a curriculum, and make sure he could test back into school the next semester....

673 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:27:02pm

re: #665 windsagio

Something everyone can agree on!

but on the other hand I do believe there are states/counties where there is essentially no teaching of evolution in schools anyway, which leave us blaming who?

674 SeafoodGumbo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:27:07pm

re: #662 iceweasel

I already saw it, sweetheart, and already downdinged you there too. Thanks for playing!

Do you agree with that cartoon from two years ago?

675 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:27:55pm

re: #671 WindUpBird

They can TEACH children whatever they want. I'm not for a ban on telling kids the Earth is 2000 years old or Satan put fossils on earth to tricksie us or whatever. They can teach their kids that the moon is actually a giant Residents eyeball. But I was under the impression that home-schooling isn't just a free-for-all, teach whatever zaniness you like, there are standards, right? In theory at least... aren't there tests to pass?

It's not teaching creationism. it's teaching creationism to the exclusion of science. And if you're tecahing kids creationism to the exclusion of science, doesn't that mean that you're essentially failing in your role of teaching them science?

OTOH, I am aware that people will do what they'll do ;-)

Why would you allow then to teach creationism and evolution at home... but not in schools. I say don't allow creationism to be taught at home if it's part of a home schooling program.

676 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:28:16pm

re: #659 WindUpBird

I'm fine with home-schooling! As long as there are standards, and that kids are getting taught real meat. But like I said, it becomes detrimental when science is replaced with pseudo-science, and history is replaced with the kook Dominionist version of history.

it would also be detrimental to train an auto mechanic that the reason for internal combustion is witches in the engine block. :D

Channeling DF, quite concur.

Oh, wait. What was that about witches in engines? Not true?

Damn.

677 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:28:19pm

re: #658 keloyd

Most history is crazy-ass mumbo jumbo revisionist history. Our kids aren't lied to in the sense of facts that aren't fact, but the subtle choice of what we include, what's left out, what's considered important, all this makes for more spin than any NASA gyroscope ever.

Humans spin, it's human nature. And real history is simplified and cut up and mooshed around into a conservative mold in student textbooks because of all the influence Texas has on textbook manufacturers. (I do recall Charles posting about this) I mean the stuff beyond the pale, demonstrable, obvious lunacy.

678 webevintage  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:29:10pm

re: #663 Naso Tang

Ah well, in that case...

There are plenty of circumstances where it is the only practical, or best, option, not necessarily religiously based. However I do think that home-schooled kids should be required to be tested to ensure they can comply with normal GED requirements, in all subjects before they are granted a GED.

Actually no one can get a GED without taking the GED tests.
While I could issue a diploma and colleges routinely accept homeschool kids based on transcripts and ACT/SAT test scores my son still wants to get a GED.
We are preparing for it right now....
(though without accommodations (long story) based on his LDs it may be dicey)

679 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:29:44pm

re: #676 austin_blue

Channeling DF, quite concur.

Oh, wait. What was that about witches in engines? Not true?

Damn.

Not witches...gremlins (as if you didn't know that) = )

680 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:29:50pm

re: #660 SeafoodGumbo

iceweasel

I saw on a previous thread that you're a big Tom Tomorrow fan. I left you a comment at the end of that thread, but it will probably go unnoticed, so I thought you might be interested in this.

Lol troll

Did someone not answer your three questions? Did you get evicted from your bridge?

681 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:30:22pm

re: #664 Walter L. Newton
Standards can be applied without cramping the religious freedom of parents. Texas has these tests that homeschool kids take ever grade or two - for history, math, reading, etc.

The State government would be infringing on the religious freedom of these (objectionable) parents by using this backdoor way of outlawing creationism. It is also exceedingly unlikely while our governor is whoring himself out on the subject...and paying hundreds of dollars for haircuts, and wearing cufflinks 7 days a week.

682 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:30:43pm

re: #676 austin_blue

Channeling DF, quite concur.

Oh, wait. What was that about witches in engines? Not true?

Damn.

Personally, I think engines are powered by stardust *_*

683 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:30:58pm

re: #666 austin_blue

Let me guess. One was Brahmin, the other Vaishya?

Excellent guess. One was Brahmin. I don't remember the other's caste -- it didn't come up. The Brahmin had always made a point of telling people she was Brahmin.
My other friend might have been Vaishya. But maybe Kshatriya. Her father had been a big deal in the military.

I thought they'd naturally get along because of the schooling, (and the immigration experience) -- they both went to very similar Ivy League places. The Brahmin was from Calcutta and the other from Mumbai, so I thought they'd also have at least the big city experience in common. I also sort of had to introduce them, since it was a small party.
Massive unpleasantness ensued, however.

684 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:31:39pm

re: #673 Naso Tang

but on the other hand I do believe there are states/counties where there is essentially no teaching of evolution in schools anyway, which leave us blaming who?

I blame Kansas :D

685 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:31:52pm

re: #680 WindUpBird

Sent you an e-mail. :3

686 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:32:00pm

re: #681 keloyd

Standards can be applied without cramping the religious freedom of parents. Texas has these tests that homeschool kids take ever grade or two - for history, math, reading, etc.

The State government would be infringing on the religious freedom of these (objectionable) parents by using this backdoor way of outlawing creationism. It is also exceedingly unlikely while our governor is whoring himself out on the subject...and paying hundreds of dollars for haircuts, and wearing cufflinks 7 days a week.

I don't know what the fuck you are talking about with your comments about your governor. I'm talking about teaching creationism at home as part of a home schooling program.

It should not be allowed.

687 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:32:09pm

re: #680 WindUpBird

Lol troll

Did someone not answer your three questions? Did you get evicted from your bridge?


had to = )

688 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:32:19pm

re: #674 SeafoodGumbo

Do you agree with that cartoon from two years ago?

Whose sock puppet are you, honey? And why would you feel the need to single me out, when others were also mentioning Tom Tomorrow?

Take your Glorious Loyalty Oath quiz and shove it.

689 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:32:26pm

re: #678 webevintage

I had thought that they, home schoolers, just needed to pass a sequence of tests as they went along, and that it was partly honor system based. I would guess that the standards vary from one school system to another.

690 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:32:48pm

re: #661 webevintage

So damn sad.
I loved his designs, even the hoof shoe
[Link: thefashpack.onsugar.com...]

and the crazy ass reptile prints from last season.
[Link: www.polyvore.com...]

Oh and the awesome show he did with the models styled to look like handmaidens for the Cenobites.
[Link: www.designtopnews.com...]

Great, awesome and amazing.

Yeah, his walkway shows were pretty much performance art. Shame. But he obviously had a delicate grasp on this world. Many artistes do. Many check out early. In a lot of cases, the back side of brilliance is fragility.

691 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:32:53pm

re: #682 WindUpBird

Personally, I think engines are powered by stardust *_*

Not the excrement of a tiny alien overlord masquerading as a baby?

692 SeafoodGumbo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:32:58pm

re: #680 WindUpBird

Lol troll

Did someone not answer your three questions? Did you get evicted from your bridge?

What three questions are you talking about?

693 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:33:09pm

re: #674 SeafoodGumbo

The hell you going on about???
:/

694 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:34:08pm

re: #693 Varek Raith

It's a variation on the 'things have really changed around here' riff.

695 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:34:12pm

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be doctors
Don't let 'em pick science books and chemistry sets
Make 'em be cowboys, truck drivers and such

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be scientists
They'll never stay home and they're always alone*
Even with someone they love...

*Some things remain constant.

'Ello.

696 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:34:35pm

re: #661 webevintage

So damn sad.
I loved his designs, even the hoof shoe
[Link: thefashpack.onsugar.com...]

and the crazy ass reptile prints from last season.
[Link: www.polyvore.com...]

Oh and the awesome show he did with the models styled to look like handmaidens for the Cenobites.
[Link: www.designtopnews.com...]

Great, awesome and amazing.

A huge loss, to the creative fashion community. Another talent, taken.
Lobster shoes here!

697 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:35:06pm

re: #689 Naso Tang

I had thought that they, home schoolers, just needed to pass a sequence of tests as they went along, and that it was partly honor system based. I would guess that the standards vary from one school system to another.

State. Each state is different.

California you pretty much have to register as a private school.

Oregon you test at the same time as other kids. You pay for it. Grrr.

New York you submit your curriculum.

Walter, I see your point, but there is no way for the state to police what the parents are teaching. Even if the curriculum is provided by the state (a few states provide a stipend, not Oregon), they can't keep parents from buying a book on the side and teaching it.

698 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:35:14pm

re: #674 SeafoodGumbo

Stop it, SG. That's what brookly red did and iceweasel gave him the backhand. You seriously don't want to go after her like that.

699 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:35:25pm

re: #695 Gus 802

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be doctors
Don't let 'em pick science books and chemistry sets
Make 'em be cowboys, truck drivers and such

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be scientists
They'll never stay home and they're always alone*
Even with someone they love...

*Some things remain constant.

'Ello.

Hey cutie! Sent you some messages via twitter, btw. :)

700 SeafoodGumbo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:35:39pm

re: #688 iceweasel

Whose sock puppet are you, honey? And why would you feel the need to single me out, when others were also mentioning Tom Tomorrow?

Take your Glorious Loyalty Oath quiz and shove it.

I'm not a sock puppet; I've read this blog since 2001. And, you weren't "singled out" as you can easily see that that post in the other thread was made to you and Irenicum.

701 webevintage  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:35:57pm

re: #689 Naso Tang

I had thought that they, home schoolers, just needed to pass a sequence of tests as they went along, and that it was partly honor system based. I would guess that the standards vary from one school system to another.


They vary from state to state.
Here you test in 3,5,7 and 9 (I think since it has been a few years since he had to do testing) and you fill out a form letting the district know you are homeschooling (even though parents who choose to send their kids to private schools do not have to tell anyone what they are doing with their kids) with a list of what you will be studying and which curric you will use.
But that is to inform them only, the district or state does not get to approve what you are doing.

702 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:35:59pm

re: #668 Walter L. Newton

Well, sure. We can certainly say that its a bad thing for their kids that they do it tho'.

"I have the right to do something" isn't the same as "Its right to do something"

703 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:36:52pm

re: #699 iceweasel

Hey cutie! Sent you some messages via twitter, btw. :)

Hi Ice! ;)

I didn't see it yet. Been staring at the ceiling in pain with some acute (I hope) problem.

Checking now...

704 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:37:20pm

re: #680 WindUpBird

Lol troll

Did someone not answer your three questions? Did you get evicted from your bridge?

Karma: 695
Registered since: Mar 10, 2007 at 5:47 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 1,066
No. of links posted: 146

Lol.

705 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:38:13pm

re: #683 iceweasel

Excellent guess. One was Brahmin. I don't remember the other's caste -- it didn't come up. The Brahmin had always made a point of telling people she was Brahmin.
My other friend might have been Vaishya. But maybe Kshatriya. Her father had been a big deal in the military.

I thought they'd naturally get along because of the schooling, (and the immigration experience) -- they both went to very similar Ivy League places. The Brahmin was from Calcutta and the other from Mumbai, so I thought they'd also have at least the big city experience in common. I also sort of had to introduce them, since it was a small party.
Massive unpleasantness ensued, however.

Ah. Calcutta is a shithole. Mumbai is the rose of India. Couldn't have made it easy for them.

"I'm of higher class from a lower class city."

Not a good place to start.

706 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:38:23pm

re: #702 windsagio

Well, sure. We can certainly say that its a bad thing for their kids that they do it tho'.

"I have the right to do something" isn't the same as "Its right to do something"

No... they should not be allowed to home school their kids if they insist in adding creationism as part of their home schooling program.

707 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:39:49pm

re: #706 Walter L. Newton

No... they should not be allowed to home school their kids if they insist in adding creationism as part of their home schooling program.

It doesn't have to be part of the home scholling program though....it could just as easily be sunday school, or some other church function....actual difference = 0

708 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:40:00pm

re: #706 Walter L. Newton

No... they should not be allowed to home school their kids if they insist in adding creationism as part of their home schooling program.

How do you square this with freedom of religion?

709 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:40:02pm

re: #699 iceweasel

Hey cutie! Sent you some messages via twitter, btw. :)

Got the pvt. Tweets. Thanks! :O

710 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:40:47pm

re: #704 iceweasel

Karma: 695
Registered since: Mar 10, 2007 at 5:47 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 1,066
No. of links posted: 146

Lol.

Could you please post a link to that phot of you catching that Rat Troll? Some people seem to need a reminder not to bother you and the poster was funny.

711 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:40:56pm

re: #708 keloyd

How do you square this with freedom of religion?

Doesn't a home schooling program have to be approved by the state/local city?

712 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:42:15pm

re: #705 austin_blue

Ah. Calcutta is a shithole. Mumbai is the rose of India. Couldn't have made it easy for them.

"I'm of higher class from a lower class city."

Not a good place to start.

It was all very strange. The person from Calcutta had a limo to take her to school every day, so she wouldn't be exposed to Calcutta.

My other friend immediately assumed a very docile, passive, and polite attitude to the one from Calcutta. To be honest that was one of the most disturbing things about the incident and a big clue to the rest of us (those not from India) that we really didn't understand what was going on there.

713 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:43:40pm

re: #706 Walter L. Newton

Wow, walter... I did you the disservice of not parsing your post right.

I've spend the last few hours being accused by people of saying what you just said.

That being said, I shouldn't have wimped out on it :P

714 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:44:09pm

re: #707 srb1976

It doesn't have to be part of the home scholling program though...it could just as easily be sunday school, or some other church function...actual difference = 0

re: #708 keloyd

How do you square this with freedom of religion?

I don't have to... you can't just home school your kids with any damn curriculum you decide on... there are standards, and it's in those standards that the state can make sure you are not inculcating mystic thinking with invalid subjects like creationism.

715 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:44:14pm

Bonsais are retarded trees.

716 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:44:19pm

re: #711 Varek Raith

Doesn't a home schooling program have to be approved by the state/local city?

Not necessarily.

Please see this map. It's HSLDA (Homeschooling Legal Defense Association). You can see what your state requires.

I also know "illegals," which is to say they don't register their child in a state that requires it. There is no master list of children in the state (believe it or not), so the school districts never know they are there.

717 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:44:44pm

[Link: www.hslda.org...]

Aw, shoot. Here's the map.

718 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:44:44pm

re: #715 Slumbering Behemoth

Bonsais are retarded trees.

Greetings, Random Task.
/:)

719 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:45:00pm

re: #710 Dark_Falcon

Could you please post a link to that phot of you catching that Rat Troll? Some people seem to need a reminder not to bother you and the poster was funny.

Image via stalker site, apparently, by way of a Bond movie Jimmah tells me-- caption via bagua

Image: iceweasel2.jpg

h/t Bagua

720 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:45:01pm

re: #701 webevintage

I'm no expert on education and don't even remember how often my kids tested, although it was certainly more than every two years, the latter which seems cruel to me. Tests become easier the more often they are taken, not the reverse.

Anyway, not something I am likely to influence any more, beyond LGF comments.

Time for bed. Night.

721 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:45:09pm

re: #711 Varek Raith
I think so, not really sure, but there's no way to make parents write down in a 'program' what they intend to teach on this subject. They could just not address geology and very little biology as part of the program, then what's to stop them other than some Orwellian scenario.

722 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:45:18pm

re: #674 SeafoodGumbo

Do you agree with that cartoon from two years ago?

Uh oh. This should be fun. You are about to get hammered. Don't fuck with Ice.

Going to the kitchen for popcorn.

723 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:45:22pm

re: #715 Slumbering Behemoth

Bonsais are retarded trees.

I thought they were midget trees.

/

724 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:45:30pm

re: #718 Varek Raith

Greetings, Random Task.
/:)

Honestly, who throws a shoe? You fight like a woman!

725 SeafoodGumbo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:45:55pm

re: #698 Dark_Falcon

Stop it, SG. That's what brookly red did and iceweasel gave him the backhand. You seriously don't want to go after her like that.

Maybe I'm the only one who appreciates the irony of posters praising a cartoonist who only a couple years ago drew a quite unflattering cartoon of this blog's owner.

:/

726 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:46:08pm

re: #714 Walter L. Newton

I don't have to... you can't just home school your kids with any damn curriculum you decide on... there are standards, and it's in those standards that the state can make sure you are not inculcating mystic thinking with invalid subjects like creationism.

As part of your listed curriculum, sure...but unless you are willing to say that they can't take their kids to a baptist church, you're still getting kids who are being taught creationism....like I said, no actual difference, just some people feel better

727 webevintage  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:46:27pm

re: #711 Varek Raith

Doesn't a home schooling program have to be approved by the state/local city?

Laws vary by state.
[Link: homeschooling.about.com...]

728 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:46:38pm

re: #713 windsagio

Wow, walter... I did you the disservice of not parsing your post right.

I've spend the last few hours being accused by people of saying what you just said.

That being said, I shouldn't have wimped out on it :P

What are you talking about? I just got in from work. I just responded by giving my opinion about home schooling and creationism. What are you talking about.

729 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:46:49pm

re: #716 EmmmieG

re: #727 webevintage

Thanks!

730 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:47:34pm

re: #723 Gus 802

I thought they were midget trees.

/

Halfling trees!

731 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:47:39pm

re: #723 Gus 802

They're trees with dwarfism. Do you want to get sued!?

/

732 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:48:03pm

re: #719 iceweasel

Image via stalker site, apparently, by way of a Bond movie Jimmah tells me-- caption via bagua

[Link: img246.imageshack.us...]

h/t Bagua

The funny thing is that the stalkers actually were on to something for once. THey fail to grasp that it takes being malicious to draw you ire, but those who do tick you off tend to regret it.

733 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:48:33pm

re: #728 Walter L. Newton

up above, there were a series of discussions wherein someone (mostly james or I) would say something about how a parent homeschooling their kid creationist style was harmful, and a bunch of people yelling back "They have the right to do it if they want!"

In my inattention, I thought you said that, and was being wimpy/agreeable.

734 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:48:50pm

re: #726 srb1976

As part of your listed curriculum, sure...but unless you are willing to say that they can't take their kids to a baptist church, you're still getting kids who are being taught creationism...like I said, no actual difference, just some people feel better

When did I say anything about where you go to church. I thought we were talking about HOME and SCHOOLING.

735 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:48:57pm

re: #730 WindUpBird

trees subject to child abuse.


/too far?

736 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:49:01pm

re: #731 laZardo

They're trees with dwarfism. Do you want to get sued!?

/

R-e-s-p-e-c-t, find out what the midget tree means to me...

/

737 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:49:09pm

re: #12 MandyManners

I feel for their biology or other science professors in college.

It may not be a problem if they attend a bible college or something similar.

738 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:49:14pm

re: #725 SeafoodGumbo

Maybe I'm the only one who appreciates the irony of posters praising a cartoonist who only a couple years ago drew a quite unflattering cartoon of this blog's owner.

:/

Yes because to post on LGF we must all stand ready to sacrifice ourselves in the battle against any who would dear mock The Great Lizard!

739 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:49:50pm

re: #735 windsagio

trees subject to child abuse.

/too far?

They are aborted trees.

740 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:49:59pm

According to the map, only six states might require a curriculum plan.

I have never been contacted by anyone. Not even to ask why I took my kids out.

I sent in a letter, and got back a letter identifying my child as homeschooled. I test on schedule, and I am not required to send in the scores unless they ask. If my child's test scores falls below 15%, they must improve the next year, or they could theoretically be pulled back in.

They don't ask. I'm so bummed. I love to brag on my children.

741 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:50:34pm

Man, such bigotry against Bonsais...
/:P

742 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:50:46pm

re: #738 jamesfirecat

Yes because to post on LGF we must all stand ready to sacrifice ourselves in the battle against any who would dear mock The Great Lizard!

Dare mock The Great Lizard!

DAMN YOU TWO HELL TYPO!

743 keloyd  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:51:12pm

re: #730 WindUpBird

Halfling trees!

I thought halfling was like mixed, like when a normal person breeds with a ginger. Bonsais are small, not evil.

744 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:51:45pm

re: #725 SeafoodGumbo

Iceweasel could easily think that Tom Tomorrow is a good cartoonist who happens to have been quite wrong about Charles. Wha tI want to know is why you're making such a big deal out of it. Because so far the only reason I can think of is:

745 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:52:02pm

re: #733 windsagio

up above, there were a series of discussions wherein someone (mostly james or I) would say something about how a parent homeschooling their kid creationist style was harmful, and a bunch of people yelling back "They have the right to do it if they want!"

In my inattention, I thought you said that, and was being wimpy/agreeable.

They don't have a right to do it.

746 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:52:07pm

re: #743 keloyd

I thought halfling was like mixed, like when a normal person breeds with a ginger. Bonsais are small, not evil.

Would you be happier if we called them hobbit trees?

747 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:52:16pm

re: #712 iceweasel

It was all very strange. The person from Calcutta had a limo to take her to school every day, so she wouldn't be exposed to Calcutta.

My other friend immediately assumed a very docile, passive, and polite attitude to the one from Calcutta. To be honest that was one of the most disturbing things about the incident and a big clue to the rest of us (those not from India) that we really didn't understand what was going on there.

That's why they call it a *caste* system. Some of my Indian friends have talked it about it with me (under intense pressure by yours truly), but I still don't fully understand it. It's an understood set of social mores. And don't even get into the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, and Jain interactions.

748 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:52:17pm

re: #742 jamesfirecat

Dare mock The Great Lizard!

DAMN YOU TWO HELL TYPO!

Dear Lizard?

/I think the reason Kim Jong-Il is getting so antsy is that he REALLY wants to be the first to play Starcraft II when it comes out.

749 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:52:52pm

re: #743 keloyd

I thought halfling was like mixed, like when a normal person breeds with a ginger. Bonsais are small, not evil.

LIGER!

[Link: news.nationalgeographic.com...]

750 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:53:18pm

re: #741 Varek Raith

No bigotry, just truth. Bonsais are retarded trees.

751 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:53:22pm

re: #748 laZardo

Dear Lizard?

/I think the reason Kim Jong-Il is getting so antsy is that he REALLY wants to be the first to play Starcraft II when it comes out.

...Why? He'll just get WTFPWND by a teen-aged South Korean.
:)

752 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:53:39pm

re: #724 jamesfirecat

Honestly, who throws a shoe? You fight like a woman!

I've been accosted via a flying sneaker at an anti-Israel rally before. It was meant as an insult but it worked in my favor because it was proof that could be shown to the police that the other side wasn't trying to be peaceful. :)

753 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:53:51pm

re: #734 Walter L. Newton

When did I say anything about where you go to church. I thought we were talking about HOME and SCHOOLING.

I am sorry, and in fact, agree with you....

My point was simply that however strictly you regulate what can be included in home schooling, it is impossible (or at least impractical) to try to regulate what parents teach their children...

754 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:54:08pm

re: #750 Slumbering Behemoth

No bigotry, just truth. Bonsais are retarded trees.

And are you going to pay for self-esteem therapy for all those poor Bonsai trees you have just wounded?

755 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:54:08pm

re: #751 Varek Raith

...Why? He'll just get WTFPWND Zerg-rushed by a teen-aged South Korean.
:)

/kekekekeke

//lol additional pylons

756 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:54:30pm

re: #749 EmmmieG

LIGER!

[Link: news.nationalgeographic.com...]

Tigon!

Image: tigon.jpg

757 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:54:56pm

re: #725 SeafoodGumbo

Maybe I'm the only one who appreciates the irony of posters praising a cartoonist who only a couple years ago drew a quite unflattering cartoon of this blog's owner.

:/

Quite a few assholes who took shots at CJ are -- if reluctantly, in some cases -- giving him props now.
Quite a few supposed supporters of CJ have been unspeakably vile to him.
And some who reluctantly and grudgingly like him now will no doubt hate him again when he takes (earned) shots at 'their team'.

I don't think you'd like it if we took a public trip through your comments, would you? Think carefully.

And who the fuck are you to take issue with me for recommending 3 specific Tom Tomorrow pieces anyway? Especially given that I remarked that I rarely read him, but should?

Socky McSock, is who I think you are.

758 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:55:31pm

re: #725 SeafoodGumbo

Maybe I'm the only one who appreciates the irony of posters praising a cartoonist who only a couple years ago drew a quite unflattering cartoon of this blog's owner.

:/

I think what's really pissing you off is LGF's break with the right, and recent much less hostile relationship with the left. Why don't you just say that, instead of this stupid crap?

759 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:55:39pm

re: #756 jamesfirecat

'Spose we should set them up on a blind date?

760 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:55:43pm

re: #739 Walter L. Newton

damn you win. I can't think of any way to go any futher, without saying something REALLY REALLY BAD.

761 webevintage  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:55:54pm

Night guys.
Gonna sit down and watch Singing in the Rain.

762 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:56:14pm

re: #753 srb1976

My point was simply that however strictly you regulate what can be included in home schooling, it is impossible (or at least impractical) to try to regulate what parents teach their children...


I think this is the point that Walter is making.

763 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:56:16pm

re: #754 EmmmieG

And are you going to pay for self-esteem therapy for all those poor Bonsai trees you have just wounded?

It's not my fault. Direct your ire at those who retard the growth of trees in order to create bonsais.

764 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:56:33pm

re: #752 eclectic infidel

I've been accosted via a flying sneaker at an anti-Israel rally before. It was meant as an insult but it worked in my favor because it was proof that could be shown to the police that the other side wasn't trying to be peaceful. :)

It was likely done in the same spirit as the asshole who threw his shoes a George W Bush. In Arab culture, to throw a shoe is a sign of extreme disrespect.

765 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:57:08pm

re: #763 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not my fault. Direct your ire at those who retard the growth of trees in order to create bonsais.

So, SB, what triggered this...rant discussion about Bonsais?
/:P

766 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:57:40pm

re: #764 Dark_Falcon

It was likely done in the same spirit as the asshole who threw his shoes a George W Bush. In Arab culture, to throw a shoe is a sign of extreme disrespect.

That guy can duck, I'll give him that. Though it would've been cooler if he bent over backwards all Matrix-like.

767 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:57:49pm

re: #725 SeafoodGumbo

Maybe I'm the only one who appreciates the irony of posters praising a cartoonist who only a couple years ago drew a quite unflattering cartoon of this blog's owner.

:/

I'm pretty sure whatever email Charles got from Tom Tomorrow fans pales in comparison to the hate email he's received from the wingnut blogosphere. Life is full of irony and the greater irony was the response that followed regarding evolution and finally culminating with "why I left the right wing."

I'm not going to go through a laundry list but I will say that it seems like you haven't been keeping up.

768 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:58:20pm

re: #760 windsagio

damn you win. I can't think of any way to go any futher, without saying something REALLY REALLY BAD.

I actually like Bonsai trees. They have regular exibit of them outdoors at the Chicago Botanical Gardens every year.

769 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:58:24pm

re: #762 jaunte

I think this is the point that Walter is making.

And that's possible too....sometimes I am not the sharpest tack in the box...

770 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:58:24pm

re: #766 laZardo

That guy can duck, I'll give him that. Though it would've been cooler if he bent over backwards all Matrix-like.

NO, would've been cooler if he'd just raised his hand and stopped them in mid air.
;)

771 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:58:55pm

re: #759 EmmmieG

'Spose we should set them up on a blind date?

The male is going to be sterile either way.

772 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:59:58pm

re: #725 SeafoodGumbo

Maybe I'm the only one who appreciates the irony of posters praising a cartoonist who only a couple years ago drew a quite unflattering cartoon of this blog's owner.

:/

Based on many of the posters at the time, the worst of whom are no longer here....

Supporters of ethnic cleansing in Israel? Gone. Advocates of aligning with Euro Brown Shirts? Gone.

You may have been part of this board from its earliest days, but this board has changed. Perhaps you should take a look in the mirror and decide if your fundamental core values are appropriate here. If so, please keep posting. If not, leave.

Respectfully,
Austin_Blue.

773 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 9:59:59pm

re: #766 laZardo

That guy can duck, I'll give him that. Though it would've been cooler if he bent over backwards all Matrix-like.

He might be able to duck, but our current president can swat flies with his bare hands!

774 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:00:26pm

re: #764 Dark_Falcon

It was likely done in the same spirit as the asshole who threw his shoes a George W Bush. In Arab culture, to throw a shoe is a sign of extreme disrespect.

Indeed. The person who flung the shoe (I got a good look at him) appeared to be of Arab ethnicity - especially with respect to the language, which I suspect was also an insult hurled in my direction. Something about holding an Israeli flag really enrages the 'other side.'

775 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:00:32pm

re: #771 jamesfirecat

Bummer for him.

776 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:00:39pm

re: #765 Varek Raith

It's my new catch phrase. A non sequitur I like to toss out now and again.

777 SeafoodGumbo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:01:11pm

re: #757 iceweasel

Quite a few assholes who took shots at CJ are -- if reluctantly, in some cases -- giving him props now.
Quite a few supposed supporters of CJ have been unspeakably vile to him.
And some who reluctantly and grudgingly like him now will no doubt hate him again when he takes (earned) shots at 'their team'.

I don't think you'd like it if we took a public trip through your comments, would you? Think carefully.

And who the fuck are you to take issue with me for recommending 3 specific Tom Tomorrow pieces anyway? Especially given that I remarked that I rarely read him, but should?

Socky McSock, is who I think you are.

I invite you to take a "public trip" through my comments. Bring a snack.

You assume a lot about me. I guess it's not possible for someone to find it amusingly ironic that a poster extols Tom Tomorrow, who drew an unflattering cartoon of Charles, without being a sock.

778 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:01:25pm

re: #776 Slumbering Behemoth

It's my new catch phrase. A non sequitur I like to toss out now and again.

Heh, got it.

:)

779 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:01:40pm

re: #770 Varek Raith

NO, would've been cooler if he'd just raised his hand and stopped them in mid air.
;)

Tacos rule.

780 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:02:10pm

re: #779 laZardo

Tacos rule.


[Video]

"Yeah, get 'em Cheney"
;)

781 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:02:18pm

re: #775 EmmmieG

Bummer for him.

On the plus side I don't think "sterile" is the same thing as "impotent" and if nothing else, they look f***ing awesome.

782 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:03:22pm

re: #774 eclectic infidel

Indeed. The person who flung the shoe (I got a good look at him) appeared to be of Arab ethnicity - especially with respect to the language, which I suspect was also an insult hurled in my direction. Something about holding an Israeli flag really enrages the 'other side.'

True that. To most Arabs, to publicly support Israel is to annouce that you are pure evil. They're very wrong, but is sadly impossible to reason with them.

783 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:03:30pm

re: #773 jamesfirecat

He might be able to duck, but our current president can swat flies with his bare hands!

Ronald Reagan could do that with his eyes.

784 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:03:36pm

Hey... the guy that invented the Pluto Platter died today. What a great toy.

785 Irenicum  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:05:13pm

Fascinating and scary article from Wired about Antibiotics Breed Superbugs Faster. The evolutionary aspect of this is what struck me. We're seeing the bacterial strains reacting/evolving much faster than initially expected. In other words, if you don't your grandma or your kids to get sick, support research based on evolutionary biology!

786 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:05:52pm

re: #777 SeafoodGumbo

I invite you to take a "public trip" through my comments. Bring a snack.

You assume a lot about me. I guess it's not possible for someone to find it amusingly ironic that a poster extols Tom Tomorrow, who drew an unflattering cartoon of Charles, without being a sock.

I think it's more than odd that a poster I don't think I've ever had contact with before feels compelled to administer the Glorious Loyalty Oath to me-- not merely in the dead thread, but the live one.
I already checked your comments, Socky McSockington. Jimmah has your number, as does austin blue, imo.

787 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:06:33pm

False limbs expert struck off over 'wrong foot'

An artificial limbs specialist who fitted a left foot to a patient who had lost his right leg has been struck off.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

788 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:06:35pm

re: #785 Irenicum

Fascinating and scary article from Wired about Antibiotics Breed Superbugs Faster. The evolutionary aspect of this is what struck me. We're seeing the bacterial strains reacting/evolving much faster than initially expected. In other words, if you don't your grandma or your kids to get sick, support research based on evolutionary biology!

But that's only micro evolution!

///

789 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:07:46pm

Nite folks....gotta keep up with the Little Man tomorrow, he is still pissed off that his skating lessons don't start til Saturday.....kinda funny really

790 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:08:00pm

re: #785 Irenicum

Fascinating and scary article from Wired about Antibiotics Breed Superbugs Faster. The evolutionary aspect of this is what struck me. We're seeing the bacterial strains reacting/evolving much faster than initially expected. In other words, if you don't your grandma or your kids to get sick, support research based on evolutionary biology!

Factory farming requires huge levels of antibiotics in pork, chicken, and beef production. Buy organic.

791 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:08:02pm

re: #597 Racer X

A Brief History of Pretty Much Everything


[Video]Effing Brilliant!

Critical Hit!

792 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:10:14pm

re: #791 Slumbering Behemoth

Critical Hit!

SPAAARRRTAAA!

793 SeafoodGumbo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:10:40pm

re: #786 iceweasel

I think it's more than odd that a poster I don't think I've ever had contact with before feels compelled to administer the Glorious Loyalty Oath to me-- not merely in the dead thread, but the live one.
I already checked your comments, Socky McSockington. Jimmah has your number, as does austin blue, imo.

Has my number? Oh, boy...

794 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:11:22pm

re: #790 austin_blue

Factory farming requires huge levels of antibiotics in pork, chicken, and beef production. Buy organic.

Here's a nice related summary of what may be happening in the evolution of E. coli:

Though “corn finishing” produces bigger, fatter cows in less time, corn is not a natural diet for a cow. Because of this unnatural corn rich diet, some unhealthy side effects take place. Most notably, a higher incidence of E. coli O157:H7 occurs in corn fed beef than in grass fed beef. In 1998, a Cornell University study revealed that cows fed on a natural grass diet had at least 80% less E. coli O157:H7 than grain fed cows.

The problem is that the corn heavy diet acidifies the cow’s digestive tract. Under normal circumstances E. coli O157:H7 is killed by stomach acids. But the increased acidity in the cow’s stomachs allows for the more acid resistant E. coli bacteria to survive and replicate. When these acid resistant E. coli enter the food supply, it is especially dangerous because a person’s primary defense against E. coli, stomach acid, is now useless.
[Link: www.nbafoodadvocate.com...]

795 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:12:12pm

re: #786 iceweasel

I'll also go ahead and say that I like Tom Tomorrow, I think he does a lot of good stuff. I can't agree with his assessment of Charles.

Is that such a strange state, where you don't agree with everything someone does? I find it's pretty much par.

796 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:12:20pm

re: #777 SeafoodGumbo

I invite you to take a "public trip" through my comments. Bring a snack.

You assume a lot about me. I guess it's not possible for someone to find it amusingly ironic that a poster extols Tom Tomorrow, who drew an unflattering cartoon of Charles, without being a sock.

No response to my #772?

Odd.

797 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:13:01pm

re: #795 Obdicut

I'll also go ahead and say that I like Tom Tomorrow, I think he does a lot of good stuff. I can't agree with his assessment of Charles.

Is that such a strange state, where you don't agree with everything someone does? I find it's pretty much par.

I'd say it's a healthy state, personally.

798 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:13:10pm

re: #790 austin_blue

:eyeballs Austin:

You look organic. How much do you weigh? What do you marinade yourse, er, what kind of beer do you drink?

799 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:13:29pm

re: #791 Slumbering Behemoth

Critical Hit!

That one only hit a heat sink. Bumps my heat from 4 to 6 and slow me down a bit, but it won't hurt me much.

/Battletech game geek

800 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:13:58pm

re: #793 SeafoodGumbo

Hmmm...

801 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:14:22pm

re: #797 iceweasel

For example, I think everyone here will like this Tom Tomorrow:

Image: 92-07-15-dem.convention.gif

802 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:14:25pm

re: #795 Obdicut

I'll also go ahead and say that I like Tom Tomorrow, I think he does a lot of good stuff. I can't agree with his assessment of Charles.

Is that such a strange state, where you don't agree with everything someone does? I find it's pretty much par.

Quite Concur.

803 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:17:25pm

re: #799 Dark_Falcon

That one only hit a heat sink. Bumps my heat from 4 to 6 and slow me down a bit, but it won't hurt me much.

/Battletech game geek

Curious, is it a viable strategy to go for heatsinks/support mechanisms in a fight or is it better to just blow 'em up?

804 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:17:48pm

Another classic Tom Tomorrow:

Image: 92-01-19-algore.gif

You will notice that's Al Gore being mocked and skewered.

And a Republican being praised.

Now I'm so confused!

805 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:17:48pm

re: #799 Dark_Falcon

I knew exactly what you were talking about the second I read "hit a heat sink". Did I ever tell you that I used to have the box-set original, back when it was very briefly called "Battle Droids"? Wish I still had it, bet it's a huge collectors item by now.

806 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:18:38pm

Frank says:


The crux of the biscuit is: If it entertains you, fine. Enjoy it. If it doesn't, then blow it out your ass. I do it to amuse myself. If I like it, I release it. If somebody else likes it, that's a bonus


Nice

807 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:18:54pm

re: #803 Varek Raith

Curious, is it a viable strategy to go for heatsinks/support mechanisms in a fight or is it better to just blow 'em up?

Depends on the makeup of the Mech you're fighting.

808 Shifra  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:19:09pm

More clarification on home schooling.

1. There is no national standard of what is taught when in schools. ie Social studies for 4th grade on Maryland used to consist of other cultures- this meant Mexico, Japan and some other ( African?) place I forget which. In other states 4th grade Social Studies may consist of American History, Ancient History whatever. As a parent homeschooling a 4th grader last year we did American History because it worked well for us at that time.

2. State laws vary, in some states homeschool regulations vary by locale.

3. HSLDA Home School Legal Defense Association does NOT represent all home schoolers. It is a controversial group with questionable information and behaviors. It does not represent me or most of the people I know.

4. Homeschooling parents include every possible religious, philosophical, or political view point. The only thing all home schooling parents have in common is the idea that this particular child does not belong in the available schools at this time.

5. Some home schoolers think the only valid standardized test are the ones needed for college admissions SAT, ACT, maybe AP

809 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:19:10pm

re: #795 Obdicut

I'll also go ahead and say that I like Tom Tomorrow, I think he does a lot of good stuff. I can't agree with his assessment of Charles.

Is that such a strange state, where you don't agree with everything someone does? I find it's pretty much par.

I disagree with the belief systems of most posters here, but that doesn't make them as bad as the flouncers from my POV.

810 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:19:23pm

re: #801 Obdicut

For example, I think everyone here will like this Tom Tomorrow:

[Link: www.thismodernworld.org...]

Very good. My favorite Tom Tomorrow line was his response to the election of George W: "But Democrats need to remember something: There would have been another Republican elected sooner or later. If the only way to prevent catastrophe was to have the Democrats in power forever, then that battle was already lost." Republicans might profit by reversing the parties' placement in that statement, which is a very good commentary on the nature of political power in the USA>

811 Irenicum  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:20:27pm

re: #790 austin_blue

Last night's CBS News had a great report just about that issue.

812 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:20:41pm

re: #810 Dark_Falcon

Indeed. Obstructionism isn't something that can be kept up forever, nor is outrage.

813 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:20:53pm

re: #807 jamesfirecat

Depends on the makeup of the Mech you're fighting.

Correct. Some unit run ice cold and won't over heat. Some others have no heat sinks outside their engines and so the heat sinks themselves cannot be targeted.

814 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:21:00pm

re: #803 Varek Raith

Curious, is it a viable strategy to go for heatsinks/support mechanisms in a fight or is it better to just blow 'em up?

The fatal flaw of battlemechs... just focus on one leg. Destroy one leg, and that 'mech is your bitch.

815 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:22:00pm

Goodnight all.

"There is no difference between living and learning . . . it is impossible and misleading and harmful to think of them as being separate. Teaching is human communication and like all communication, elusive and difficult...we must be wary of the feeling that we know what we are doing in class. When we are most sure of what we are doing, we may be closest to being a bore."
-- John Holt, What Do I Do Monday?

816 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:22:17pm

re: #805 Slumbering Behemoth

I knew exactly what you were talking about the second I read "hit a heat sink". Did I ever tell you that I used to have the box-set original, back when it was very briefly called "Battle Droids"? Wish I still had it, bet it's a huge collectors item by now.

Yes, you did tell me that. In the next couple months the 25th anniversary box set of Battletech will be coming out. You might want to get it, it's got paintable minis and everything.

817 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:22:21pm

Vegetali


Bite me
818 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:22:22pm

re: #814 Slumbering Behemoth

You know how hard the roll is for jumping a one-legged mech and remaining standing after?

I made that roll once. And then died the next turn. But it was great.

I liked the light mechs. Apply force at critical points.

819 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:22:23pm

re: #802 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur.

I haven't even bothered to click Mr Troll's link to the TT cartoon in question. Why would I? I never saw any of TT's anti-CJ stuff that I recall, I made it clear in the post that Socky is choking on his monocle objecting to that I didn't read most of Tom Tomorrow (but wish I did), and this is all very obvious trolling from Socky McTrollpants in any case.

Big deal. I advise all posters with a problem with me to try scanning my reading habits and posts for 'subversive' tendencies.

Bonne chance!

820 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:23:03pm

re: #798 Slumbering Behemoth

:eyeballs Austin:

You look organic. How much do you weigh? What do you marinade yourse, er, what kind of beer do you drink?

150. Anchor Porter.

No answer to my #772?

821 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:23:52pm

re: #819 iceweasel

Maybe we drove him off with our cunning display of common goddamn sense.

822 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:24:11pm

re: #814 Slumbering Behemoth

The fatal flaw of battlemechs... just focus on one leg. Destroy one leg, and that 'mech is your bitch.

The problem being that you're usually rolling hit locations randomly. The strategy you describe only wprks if you have an Targeting Computer.

823 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:24:44pm

re: #795 Obdicut

I'll also go ahead and say that I like Tom Tomorrow, I think he does a lot of good stuff. I can't agree with his assessment of Charles.

Is that such a strange state, where you don't agree with everything someone does? I find it's pretty much par.

No, it's 'ironic' and a sign of something deeply, deeply wrong (eyes flitting rapidly from left to right)/

824 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:25:04pm

re: #816 Dark_Falcon

Geez, I'm getting old enough to repeat the same stories on blogs now. :(

I'd be interested in the CE box set, but I don't have the expendable income for that. Heck, I still play twelve year old PC games for the same reason.

825 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:25:11pm

re: #819 iceweasel

I haven't even bothered to click Mr Troll's link to the TT cartoon in question. Why would I? I never saw any of TT's anti-CJ stuff that I recall, I made it clear in the post that Socky is choking on his monocle objecting to that I didn't read most of Tom Tomorrow (but wish I did), and this is all very obvious trolling from Socky McTrollpants in any case.

Big deal. I advise all posters with a problem with me to try scanning my reading habits and posts for 'subversive' tendencies.

Bonne chance!

It was from last night or the night before. We were talking about something and you linked to the Tom Tomorrow cartoon for me actually.

826 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:25:31pm

re: #822 Dark_Falcon

The problem being that you're usually rolling hit locations randomly. The strategy you describe only wprks if you have an Targeting Computer.

Interesting...sounds like something I'd get into. Any links on basic play?

827 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:26:21pm

re: #822 Dark_Falcon

The problem being that you're usually rolling hit locations randomly. The strategy you describe only wprks if you have an Targeting Computer.

Also depends on what your weapons are, if memory serves don't you take like a -3 penalty to hit if you're aiming for a particular part of the body? Its often better to just grab some big guns and know that two or three hits to any part of the body will blow it clean off....

828 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:26:56pm

re: #827 jamesfirecat

20-LRM is the solution to most problems.

829 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:27:06pm

re: #715 Slumbering Behemoth

Bonsais are retarded trees.

Bonsais are HUMAN TRAINED retaded trees.

830 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:27:57pm

re: #828 Obdicut

20-LRM is the solution to most problems.

Yeah that was the strategy I went with the one time I played though I was only playing a middle weight clan mech with two LRM 20, and about 14 rounds of ammo for them.

831 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:29:12pm

And it's time for me to carry my fiancee to bed. So goodnight.

832 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:29:16pm

re: #817 Killgore Trout

Are those paintings or photographs? Excellent compositions, either way.

833 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:30:16pm

re: #827 jamesfirecat

Also depends on what your weapons are, if memory serves don't you take like a -3 penalty to hit if you're aiming for a particular part of the body? Its often better to just grab some big guns and know that two or three hits to any part of the body will blow it clean off...

It's +3 on your target number, but you've got the general idea. The only way around it is to use Enhanced Imaging or Vehicle Direct Neural Interface, both of which will help lower the targetr number but mean cybernetic augmentations to the pilot.

Battletech's web site is here.

834 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:30:20pm

re: #828 Obdicut

20-LRM is the solution to most problems.

Though if I could have made a heavy weight mech I would have wanted to make something with rail cannons, 20 LRM splatters the damage all over your opponents mech and it can get thinned out pretty well if they've got the anti missile upgrades, (though for non clan they're only 1d6 instead of 2D6 as memory serves....)

835 austin_blue  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:31:42pm

Good night all. Sweet dreams!

836 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:32:24pm

re: #833 Dark_Falcon

It's +3 on your target number, but you've got the general idea. The only way around it is to use Enhanced Imaging or Vehicle Direct Neural Interface, both of which will help lower the targetr number but mean cybernetic augmentations to the pilot.

Battletech's web site is here.

But a non targetted shot with a targeting computer is -1 right?

Like I said, I'd enjoy building a heavy mech with say... four rail cannons on it....

837 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:32:25pm

re: #828 Obdicut

20-LRM is the solution to most problems.

And an Anti-Missile System is an answer to the problem of LRMs. It creates a -4 for the attacker on the Missile Hits Table.

838 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:32:37pm

re: #820 austin_blue

150. Anchor Porter.

Nice marinade, er, good choice.

No answer to my #772?

#772? Um, dude? You're talking to the wrong dude, dude.

839 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:32:44pm

re: #836 jamesfirecat

But a non targetted shot with a targeting computer is -1 right?

Like I said, I'd enjoy building a heavy mech with say... four rail cannons on it...

Correct.

840 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:33:21pm

re: #822 Dark_Falcon

The problem being that you're usually rolling hit locations randomly. The strategy you describe only wprks if you have an Targeting Computer.

Eyeball it.

841 laZardo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:33:45pm

I'm gonna leave you nerds alone with whatever it is you do by yourselves. (; Brb lunch.

842 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:34:40pm

re: #817 Killgore Trout

Frank says:
"Some Scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."

843 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:35:02pm

Hi Lizards.

I'm back for a while on a short reprieve.

844 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:35:42pm

re: #843 Cato the Elder

Hi Lizards.

I'm back for a while on a short reprieve.

Welcome back do you have any thoughts on Tom Tommorow, Homeschooling or Battlemechs?

845 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:36:23pm

re: #843 Cato the Elder

Hi Lizards.

I'm back for a while on a short reprieve.

How ya doin'?

846 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:36:32pm

Tried playing "Mechwarrior" once. Didn't get the hang of the moving/looking, aiming/firing coordination. My memories of that game are those of getting repeatedly blown the shit out of, set to the strains of Barbers 'Adagio' .

847 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:36:35pm

re: #829 Floral Giraffe

Bonsais are HUMAN TRAINED retaded trees.

I understand how humans retard the grow of trees to make bonsais, but I don't know how one retads a tree. Or is it retades? This is a new concept to me.
;)

848 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:37:44pm

re: #845 Varek Raith

How ya doin'?

Well, I can say this: Baltimore 2010 is proof that Hell really can freeze over.

849 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:37:58pm

re: #843 Cato the Elder

Hi Lizards.

I'm back for a while on a short reprieve.

Hola Cato!
Nice to "see" you.
Hope to "see" you around more than you were predicting.
Wish you well, and your guide dog too!
If that's not offensive.

850 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:38:09pm

re: #825 Gus 802

It was from last night or the night before. We were talking about something and you linked to the Tom Tomorrow cartoon for me actually.

Yes, and because of our conversation then I linked it again today (or last night) for Irenicum.
Who was also in this thread, and who Lobster Sockpot didn't feel the need to address about it.

851 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:38:50pm

re: #843 Cato the Elder

Hi Lizards.

I'm back for a while on a short reprieve.

Cato!!! welcome back. WTF is up?

852 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:39:14pm

re: #848 Cato the Elder

Well, I can say this: Baltimore 2010 is proof that Hell really can freeze over.

You said it! I'm just south of DC. 30 frikkin' inches of hell.
:)

853 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:39:23pm

re: #827 jamesfirecat

re: #833 Dark_Falcon

Your guy's gaming geek cred way outclasses mine. I am humbled.

854 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:39:39pm

re: #850 iceweasel

Yes, and because of our conversation then I linked it again today (or last night) for Irenicum.
Who was also in this thread, and who Lobster Sockpot didn't feel the need to address about it.

Lobster Sockpot! Funny.

855 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:40:04pm

re: #849 Floral Giraffe

Thanks, FG. Nothing offensive about it. But Haku isn't a guide dog - he's my medical service dog. He helps me keep a chronic condition under control.

856 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:40:11pm

re: #848 Cato the Elder

Well, I can say this: Baltimore 2010 is proof that Hell really can freeze over.

You may be experiencing freezer burn.

857 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:40:21pm

re: #851 iceweasel

Um, er, well, he's holding donuts AND coffe, as per a previous poster.
Blushing, but well.

858 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:41:05pm

re: #843 Cato the Elder

Hi Lizards.

I'm back for a while on a short reprieve.

How do you type with the straigh-jacket on? On second thought, don't tell me.

859 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:41:11pm

re: #853 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #833 Dark_Falcon

Your guy's gaming geek cred way outclasses mine. I am humbled.

Hmm, I wonder how Battletech mechs would fare against my illegally modified Loronar Strike Cruiser...
:)

860 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:41:49pm

re: #858 Slumbering Behemoth

How do you type with the straigh-jacket on? On second thought, don't tell me.

They all told me it was an atavistic throwback when I tried to learn how to type with me toes, well whose laughing now!

861 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:41:55pm

re: #854 Gus 802

Lobster Sockpot! Funny.

Accidental. I honestly didn't remember the guys name and had it filed under "Lobster Pot/Clam Chowder/Similar" in my head.

It's funnier than I intended, actually. GymsockGumbo would have been better. :)

862 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:42:14pm

re: #851 iceweasel

Cato!!! welcome back. WTF is up?

Well if my back account doesn't get an upward boost soon, they're going to shut off my internet. I talked a little reprieve out of them, as I have a translation job to do and need my computer and all of my research tools to do the work. Going to the library and trying to make sense of a PC after all these years on a Mac wasn't going to cut it.

863 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:42:54pm

re: #858 Slumbering Behemoth

How do you type with the straigh-jacket on? On second thought, don't tell me.

It's actually work-release, smart guy!

864 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:43:15pm

re: #855 Cato the Elder

I was being lazy & unspecific calling your Haku a "guide dog". Nothing bad meant. Happy to "see" you here tonight.

865 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:43:28pm

re: #863 Cato the Elder

And it's called a straitjacket.

866 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:43:44pm

re: #862 Cato the Elder

Well if my back account doesn't get an upward boost soon, they're going to shut off my internet. I talked a little reprieve out of them, as I have a translation job to do and need my computer and all of my research tools to do the work. Going to the library and trying to make sense of a PC after all these years on a Mac wasn't going to cut it.

Do you have any wireless signals in your area?

867 The Left  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:43:44pm

re: #862 Cato the Elder

Well if my back account doesn't get an upward boost soon, they're going to shut off my internet. I talked a little reprieve out of them, as I have a translation job to do and need my computer and all of my research tools to do the work. Going to the library and trying to make sense of a PC after all these years on a Mac wasn't going to cut it.

I need to call you in any case. I have some ideas. I think we can handle your internet situation.

868 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:43:53pm

Is Hoops here?

869 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:44:28pm

re: #865 Cato the Elder

And it's called a straitjacket.

Their you go again!

870 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:45:07pm

re: #866 Gus 802

Do you have any wireless signals in your area?

Yeah, but because they all belong to Hopkins students, every one of them is passworded. There used to be someone next door with an open linksys account, but they moved away.

871 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:46:12pm

Damn, my connection to the web is fading really fast. See you all later, I guess.
/Thanks, Comcast!
:/

872 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:46:30pm

re: #867 iceweasel

I would like to help. Please let me know!
I sent Walter an email , yesterday.

must sleep now...

873 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:46:38pm

re: #869 Varek Raith

He's just won of those pedants whom can't help but point out are pour grasp of the english language.

874 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:46:45pm

re: #859 Varek Raith

Hmm, I wonder how Battletech mechs would fare against my illegally modified Loronar Strike Cruiser...
:)

They'd die like dogs. Star Wars space warships are far faster and more powerful than those in Battletech. However, my gaming group did run a game pitting Battletech Warships against Battlestars Galactica and Pegasus. The battlestars won, their heavy armor enabling them to survive long enough to reach their optimum firing range.

875 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:47:43pm

re: #870 Cato the Elder

Yeah, but because they all belong to Hopkins students, every one of them is passworded. There used to be someone next door with an open linksys account, but they moved away.

Oh, that's too bad. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to hang out in some wi-fi cafe. I know I wouldn't.

876 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:49:23pm

re: #870 Cato the Elder

Yeah, but because they all belong to Hopkins students, every one of them is passworded. There used to be someone next door with an open linksys account, but they moved away.

How much do you pay for internet? I ask because wireless cards for laptops can be quite affordable. Full Disclosure: I sell such service.

877 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:51:16pm

re: #844 jamesfirecat

Welcome back do you have any thoughts on Tom Tommorow, Homeschooling or Battlemechs?

Tom Tomorrow is often spot-on.

Homeschooling: I have non-religious right-wing relatives who did an excellent job of teaching their two kids. And I know a leftist eco-fanatic who is busily equipping her son to be killed the first day he ever steps out in the world on his own. It's a very mixed bag, and I'm not against it or for it across the board. It really comes down to the parents.

What are Battlemechs? Can I own one under the Second Amendment?

878 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:52:49pm

re: #876 Dark_Falcon

How much do you pay for internet? I ask because wireless cards for laptops can be quite affordable. Full Disclosure: I sell such service.

I would need one for my iMac, because that's where all the work goodies are. Good news is it's equipped with AirPort just like my little old iBook.

879 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:53:42pm

re: #877 Cato the Elder

Tom Tomorrow is often spot-on.

Homeschooling: I have non-religious right-wing relatives who did an excellent job of teaching their two kids. And I know a leftist eco-fanatic who is busily equipping her son to be killed the first day he ever steps out in the world on his own. It's a very mixed bag, and I'm not against it or for it across the board. It really comes down to the parents.

What are Battlemechs? Can I own one under the Second Amendment?

Battlemechs are walking tanks used in a game I play called Battletech. I'm trying to see if any other folks here who play similar games would be interested in playing it. Some other lizards have played it before and we were talking game strategies.

880 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:54:06pm

re: #876 Dark_Falcon

How much do you pay for internet? I ask because wireless cards for laptops can be quite affordable. Full Disclosure: I sell such service.

Tell me more, I've been quoted $50-$60 month.

881 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:54:45pm

re: #879 Dark_Falcon

Battlemechs are walking tanks used in a game I play called Battletech. I'm trying to see if any other folks here who play similar games would be interested in playing it. Some other lizards have played it before and we were talking game strategies.

I'm not sure if I'd be up playing it across the internet though I suppose you can doubtlessly play it by mail/email like chess.

Still it just doesn't feel the same when you can watch the other guys dice bounce across the board while you feverishly hope and pray that he'll miss....

882 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:55:01pm

re: #875 Gus 802

Oh, that's too bad. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to hang out in some wi-fi cafe. I know I wouldn't.

I have nothing against wifi cafés, dude. Not around here, anyway. Have you seen any Hopkins girls lately? Fuggedaboudit.

It's that I need my full-size iMac to work, and right now I couldn't safely carry a five-pound bag of dog food without killing myself on the ice.

883 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:57:14pm

re: #878 Cato the Elder

I would need one for my iMac, because that's where all the work goodies are. Good news is it's equipped with AirPort just like my little old iBook.

If your credit allows for an additional cellular line, you can get a wireless router that gets signals from Sprint's cell towers and then transmits to your Mac as WiFi. It's called an Overdrive, and it is available in Baltimore. It uses 4th Generation wireless tech and is 3-5 times faster than AT&T's much-vaunted "Fastest 3G Network".

884 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:57:33pm

re: #881 jamesfirecat

Trash talking doesn't work as well in that format either. Trash talking is, like, half the point of any competitive, gaming endeavor.

885 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 10:58:33pm

re: #880 avanti

Tell me more, I've been quoted $50-$60 month.

Sprint's 4G service costs $59.99 per month. Where do you live? I can check and see if its available where you live.

886 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:00:09pm

re: #885 Dark_Falcon

Sprint's 4G service costs $59.99 per month. Where do you live? I can check and see if its available where you live.

That's what I pay for Verizon. I'm in Annapolis Md.

887 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:00:42pm

Nite all, it's way late.

888 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:03:28pm

re: #885 Dark_Falcon

Geez. Yet another techie on LGF, talking shop and making deals.

Could we once, just once, have a woman of the night come on here and discuss the finer points of plying her trade? Is that too much to ask for?

889 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:05:32pm

I've got to get horizontal.

Good night folks.

890 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:06:10pm

Tales from the frozen inferno:

The main downspout on my house is blocked inside with ice, so any snow that melts during the day comes out as water at the overflow about four-fifths of the way up and freezes on the outside of the spout. It is now about a foot-and-a-half thick. The cable line that runs loose (nobody ever installs anything correctly in Baltimore) down the lower half of the spout is encased in its own two-inch-thick sheath of crystal-clear ice.

And today, the water from that wall of ice started seeping through the bad pointing on the brick wall and is now running in rivulets down my workroom wall and into the basement.

Just had two friendly six-foot-plus firemen in a Humvee come by to assure me that the wall isn't going to collapse tonight.

The wall below which I'm sitting right now, that is.

891 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:07:06pm

re: #886 avanti

That's what I pay for Verizon. I'm in Annapolis Md.

Sprint 4G is faster than Verizon. It's available in parts of Annapolis now. Check out the website. Click on coverage then enter your address. Once the coverage map of your area appears, click on the "Data, Email, and Multimedia" tab, then within that click on the "Sprint Devices with 4G" tab. That will tell you if 4G works at your house.

892 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:07:09pm

re: #885 Dark_Falcon

Sprint's 4G service costs $59.99 per month. Where do you live? I can check and see if its available where you live.

Must be one of those price-fixing things. That's pretty much exactly what I pay for Comcast cable internet. No phone, no teevee - just the web.

893 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:10:08pm

re: #888 Slumbering Behemoth

Geez. Yet another techie on LGF, talking shop and making deals.

Could we once, just once, have a woman of the night come on here and discuss the finer points of plying her trade? Is that too much to ask for?

re: #889 Gus 802

I've got to get horizontal.

Okay, that one barely even comes close, it's not juicy enough. Too much of a tease, I think.
/

Nite, Gus.

894 Aye Pod  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:14:24pm

International broadcasters condemn Iran over 'jamming'

Three major international broadcasters have strongly condemned Iran for its "deliberate electronic interference" in their broadcasts.

The BBC, Deutsche Welle and Voice of America said the jamming began on Thursday as Iran marked the 31st anniversary of the Islamic Revolution.

They said Iran was broadcasting freely around the world while denying its own people programmes coming from outside.

Earlier, the US accused Iran of using a "near-total information blockade".

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

895 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:19:46pm

re: #894 Jimmah

International broadcasters condemn Iran over 'jamming'

Does this have anything to do with the satellite the just launched?

We should shoot that fucker down just on principle.

896 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:21:42pm

re: #867 iceweasel

I need to call you in any case. I have some ideas. I think we can handle your internet situation.

Tonight would be a good time to call. I'm so mesmerized by the sound of water dripping thousands of dollars worth of damage through my walls that I doubt I'll sleep before dawn.

897 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:28:22pm

re: #895 Cato the Elder

ΠΙΜΦ: "they"

And those last two lines were mine, not part of your quote.

898 Silvergirl  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 12:11:35am

re: #73 SpaceJesus

apparently stonewall jackson is a favorite fixture in homeschooling publications because of his strong religious convictions. who cares that he fought for the confederacy to prolong and maintain slavery right?

In some homeschool publications.

If they're revering Stonewall, they're usually teaching Lincoln as anti-Christ. I've met these people. (The homeschool parents, not Stonewall and Lincoln. heh)

899 Silvergirl  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 12:17:01am

re: #90 Petero1818

My personal opinion is that school is more than just the curriculum. It is where children learn to socialize, and come to understand their place in the broader community. It is where they are exposed to people who may do things differently. My kids go to a private school, and that in and of itself limits just how much diversity there is there, but I can tell you, I was pretty psyched when my kid came home today and said to me "Gong Hey fat Choy"! It is an important part of one's education.

Which is coming right up. Tiger year.

I forgot I'm posting in a thread that's gone to bed.

900 Synesius  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 1:13:30am

Not to sound like Johnny-one-note on the kazoo, but for every nutter teaching his/her kids crap, there are whole school districts not only cramming PC garbage into the heads of their captives but conditioning them to hate learning in general. I expect to fork out around $400 k in the next six years to buy my kids glorified work permits, aka B.A. degrees. I'm an enabler of this wicked system, but what choice have I? God bless the home schoolers. At least their kids have a fighting chance to actually learn something. From what I read, home schoolers tend to perform better than than the public school inmates. It probably comes from having parents who give a damn.

901 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 5:30:48am

re: #900 Synesius

Down-dinged for implying parents who send their parents to public school don't give a damn.

902 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 7:17:30am

re: #900 Synesius

Not to sound like Johnny-one-note on the kazoo, but for every nutter teaching his/her kids crap, there are whole school districts not only cramming PC garbage into the heads of their captives but conditioning them to hate learning in general. I expect to fork out around $400 k in the next six years to buy my kids glorified work permits, aka B.A. degrees. I'm an enabler of this wicked system, but what choice have I? God bless the home schoolers. At least their kids have a fighting chance to actually learn something. From what I read, home schoolers tend to perform better than than the public school inmates. It probably comes from having parents who give a damn.

Homeschooling also requires you to have at least one parent who is a stay at home mother/father,

I'm sure there are families that would love to homeschool their kids, they just don't can't affoard not to have both parents working 9 to 5 jobs or so...

903 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 7:53:36am

re: #900 Synesius

Not to sound like Johnny-one-note on the kazoo, but for every nutter teaching his/her kids crap, there are whole school districts not only cramming PC garbage into the heads of their captives but conditioning them to hate learning in general. I expect to fork out around $400 k in the next six years to buy my kids glorified work permits, aka B.A. degrees. I'm an enabler of this wicked system, but what choice have I? God bless the home schoolers. At least their kids have a fighting chance to actually learn something. From what I read, home schoolers tend to perform better than than the public school inmates. It probably comes from having parents who give a damn.

Sounds like you are just pissed about having to pay for your kid's education, and it doesn't sound like you really care that much about it; and as a result perhaps your kids don't either.

My kids got an excellent public education, as well as a complementary one at home, with occasional tutoring when their AP classes went beyond what we could remember.

One finished college in 2 1/2 years as a result, and the other went on for an MBA by 23. Both are working and in high demand, and pay, in their fields.

They, and we, used what the system offered, and it worked just fine.

904 Lanzman  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 8:03:14am

"Imagine what kind of “evolution” she’s teaching her kids."

Yes, how dare these parents raise and educate their children according to their own values! The fiends!!

905 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 8:10:51am

re: #904 Lanzman

"Imagine what kind of “evolution” she’s teaching her kids."

Yes, how dare these parents raise and educate their children according to their own values! The fiends!!

Not values; fantasies.

906 ryannon  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 8:10:59am

re: #485 The Sanity Inspector

In 100 years time, we've gone from teaching Greek and Latin in high school to teaching remedial reading in college.

...Of course, more people are in school nowadays than in our great-grandparents' time. In those days, if you were no good in school you could drop out after 8th grade and go to work in the brickyard or just stay down on the farm. Can't do that anymore...

Fewer and fewer farms and the bricks are imported from China.

But you can always sell crack cocaine!

907 Lanzman  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 8:16:09am

re: #905 Naso Tang

Not values; fantasies.

Irrelevant. It is the right of all parents to raise their children according to their own best judgment. Regardless of how reality-impaired that judgment may be. To suggest otherwise is to invite someone to tell *you* how to raise *your* children, which I'm sure you'd not be terribly eager to accept.

908 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 8:28:17am

re: #907 Lanzman

Irrelevant. It is the right of all parents to raise their children according to their own best judgment. Regardless of how reality-impaired that judgment may be. To suggest otherwise is to invite someone to tell *you* how to raise *your* children, which I'm sure you'd not be terribly eager to accept.

Not irrelevant, unless you also subscribe to the principle that compulsory education is not needed, and education means being prepared to function as a citizen.

I suspect even you would object to teaching that the earth is flat, because you will pick up the prices eventually when those same children cannot contribute to a post industrial society. Teaching creationism as opposed to evolution is no different.

909 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 8:28:46am

PIMF. Pieces.

910 Lanzman  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 8:40:14am

re: #908 Naso Tang

Not irrelevant, unless you also subscribe to the principle that compulsory education is not needed, and education means being prepared to function as a citizen.

I suspect even you would object to teaching that the earth is flat, because you will pick up the prices eventually when those same children cannot contribute to a post industrial society. Teaching creationism as opposed to evolution is no different.

Teaching that the earth was flat in a public school would be unacceptable, as would be/is the teaching of creationism. What homeschoolers do is of no concern, as if they're doing a good job then no harm no foul, and if they're doing a bad job it affects only their own children.

911 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 9:02:07am

re: #910 Lanzman

But you miss my point, which is that we need our citizens to share reality. Needless to say, the same reality and have somewhat comparable skills.

If teaching creationism in public schools is unacceptable, then teaching it at home is essentially denying the children the benefits and objectives of the education schooling is designed for; and it goes further than simply denying specific knowledge. It teaches that reality can be chosen according to personal preference.

I agree that we can only go so far in dictating what people do, even to their children, but we can try to make sure that if they can't demonstrate a solid grasp of what we think they should have been taught, then we need to deny them the trappings of an educational certificate.

They can always probably work in the kitchens at Pat Robertson's TV stations./

912 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 9:08:42am

The president's reality problem nypost.com

It might have been the most revelatory moment of the Obama presidency. In an interview with Time magazine, a chastened President Obama talked of his sputtering Middle East peace initiative.

"This is just really hard," he explained. "This is as intractable a problem as you get."

As an observation, this is as banal as it gets. After all the wars and all the terror attacks against Israel and all the frustrated American diplomatic forays across the last two administrations, no one should be surprised at the intractability of the Israeli-Arab conflict.
But Obama sounded as if it were painful new information that had forced an unwelcome adjustment in his worldview.

This speaks either to an astonishing historical ignorance (did he not know?) or a stupendous self-regard (did he not care because he thought he was so special?), or both.

913 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 9:09:46am

re: #911 Naso Tang

But you miss my point, which is that we need our citizens to share reality. Needless to say, the same reality and have somewhat comparable skills.

If teaching creationism in public schools is unacceptable, then teaching it at home is essentially denying the children the benefits and objectives of the education schooling is designed for; and it goes further than simply denying specific knowledge. It teaches that reality can be chosen according to personal preference.

I agree that we can only go so far in dictating what people do, even to their children, but we can try to make sure that if they can't demonstrate a solid grasp of what we think they should have been taught, then we need to deny them the trappings of an educational certificate.

They can always probably work in the kitchens at Pat Robertson's TV stations./

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

914 Blueheron  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 9:10:22am

re: #912 Blueheron

The president's reality problem nypost.com

It might have been the most revelatory moment of the Obama presidency. In an interview with Time magazine, a chastened President Obama talked of his sputtering Middle East peace initiative.

"This is just really hard," he explained. "This is as intractable a problem as you get."

As an observation, this is as banal as it gets. After all the wars and all the terror attacks against Israel and all the frustrated American diplomatic forays across the last two administrations, no one should be surprised at the intractability of the Israeli-Arab conflict.
But Obama sounded as if it were painful new information that had forced an unwelcome adjustment in his worldview.

This speaks either to an astonishing historical ignorance (did he not know?) or a stupendous self-regard (did he not care because he thought he was so special?), or both.

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

915 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 10:04:52am

re: #912 Blueheron

The president's reality problem nypost.com

It might have been the most revelatory moment of the Obama presidency. In an interview with Time magazine, a chastened President Obama talked of his sputtering Middle East peace initiative.

"This is just really hard," he explained. "This is as intractable a problem as you get."

As an observation, this is as banal as it gets. After all the wars and all the terror attacks against Israel and all the frustrated American diplomatic forays across the last two administrations, no one should be surprised at the intractability of the Israeli-Arab conflict.
But Obama sounded as if it were painful new information that had forced an unwelcome adjustment in his worldview.

This speaks either to an astonishing historical ignorance (did he not know?) or a stupendous self-regard (did he not care because he thought he was so special?), or both.

I rate this a profound "Meh"

Every President has a right to come into office thinking that this time things are gonna be different and that they'll be the one to make it all right only to have their hopes and dreams crushed under the weight of federal bureaucracy and cold hard unforgiving reality.

Look what happened to George H. W. Bush's "Read my Lips, No New Taxes"

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


And how well that worked out for him.


Moral of the story, lets critique Obama's policy or when he lies, while his answer might have been banal it was/is true isn't it?

916 LotharBot  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 11:03:49am

Dang, I wish I wasn't coming into this thread so late.

I'm a stay-at-home dad with a 7-week-old son. I've been wanting to have kids and take care of them for a very long time, and I plan to have several more. I spent the last 7 years teaching professionally (4 for a non-profit aerospace museum, 3 in grad school as a TA) and several years before that teaching Sunday School, and the reviews I get say I'm very good at it. All this points to homeschooling being a good option for me, and one I'll probably take even if I move to a neighborhood with fantastic public schools.

In many ways, I'm the inverse of the person quoted in the article. My masters talk was on evolutionary genetics, specifically a mathematical model called "adaptive speciation". I plan to teach my children correct ideas about evolution, but also expose them to several variants of creationism and intelligent design. I plan to teach them the critical thinking skills necessary to evaluate the evidence for the different ideas and recognize their strengths and weaknesses*, and the skills necessary to incorporate new data and revise their understanding accordingly. This way, my children will be aware of what their peers are being taught both in public school and in church, and they will be capable of intelligently responding. If I simply indoctrinated them into evolution, they would not be so well equipped.


* SEKRIT COAD FOR CREASHUNISM? Not in this case. Scientists recognize "weaknesses" as areas for future research. Only wackjobs see "weaknesses" as reason to discard the whole theory.

917 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 4:49:53pm

re: #916 LotharBot

Read "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" by Dennett. There really isn't any difference between the various forms of creationism; they all boil down to the same thing.

918 Bingo.Long  Fri, Feb 12, 2010 7:09:12pm

re: #239 EmmmieG

Are you saying that homeschooling parents can't teach logic? Or am I misreading this?

No, not saying that at all. My comment on homeschooling (in the form of a question) had to do with a basic skepticism re the abilities of homeschooling parents to actually engage in competent teaching at a level comparable to that which certified professional teachers are capable, and it's a legitimate question, of course, as those who insert religious explanations into curricula are really not teaching at all, but indoctrinating. If one wants the best possible academic education for one's child, one ought obviously to leave such things to professionals (which today most likely means private schooling in most places in the country).

919 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 13, 2010 2:30:27am

re: #134 brookly red

well when the POTUS say there are 57 states you do kinda have to ask your self what are we doing wrong.

hahahaha weak sauce!


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