Professor Newt’s Distorted History Lesson

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One of the main talking points used by opponents of the proposed Islamic community center in downtown Manhattan is that the term “Cordoba House” was deliberately chosen by the Muslim developers to symbolize the Muslim conquest of Spain. Apparently we’re supposed to believe that Imam Feisal Rauf can hardly suppress his evil laughter at the thought of putting one over on the dim bulb infidels, building a sinister symbol of Islamic triumphalism that will tower over our sacred hallowed ground.

This deceptive line of hooey is a common theme of Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, the two main proponents of the Bigot Brigade. And last week we saw perennial opportunist Newt Gingrich echoing it (although he’s not the only one; nearly every major GOP politician has now come out on the side of un-American, unconstitutional prejudice, and many of them use the “Cordoba” line).

This point is also raised repeatedly at LGF whenever the topic comes up; so here’s a valuable lesson from Carl Pyrdum, a graduate student in medieval European history, on Cordoba and the Muslim conquest of Spain: Got Medieval: Professor Newt’s Distorted History Lesson.

In these twenty-five words, Newt offers the final word on medieval Cordoba: “the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world’s third-largest mosque complex.” �This fact, the transformation of a church into a mosque, is the only thing we should think of when we hear a modern Muslim use the word “Cordoba,” according to Mr. Gingrich.

Notice how carefully he’s phrased his claim to give the impression that during the medieval conquest of Spain the Muslims charged into Cordoba and declared it the capital of a new Muslim empire, and in order to add insult to injury seized control of a Christian church and built the biggest mosque they could, right there in front of the Christians they’d just conquered, a big Muslim middle finger in the heart of medieval Christendom. �Essentially, they’ve done it before, they’ll do it again, right there at Ground Zero, if all good Christians don’t band together to stop them.

The problem is, in order to give that impression of immediacy, Newt elides three-hundred years of Christian and Muslim history. �Three-hundred years. The Muslims conquered Cordoba in 712. �The Christian church that was later transformed into the Great Mosque of Cordoba apparently** continued hosting Christian worship for at least a generation after that. �Work on the Mosque didn’t actually begin until seventy-odd years leader in 784, and the mosque only became “the world’s third-largest” late in the tenth century, after a series of expansions by much later rulers, probably around 987 or so.

Then there’s the matter of the two odd verbs in Newt’s summation of Cordoba’s history: “transformed” and “symbolized”. �Surely, a mosque as great as The Great Mosque of Cordoba, has symbolized a lot of things to a lot of people over the years. �But Muslim historians writing about the Great Mosque don’t point to it as a symbol of Muslim triumph over Christians; rather, they treat it primarily as a symbol of Muslim victory over other Muslims.

Everything you’ve been told about Cordoba by the “anti-jihad” bloggers is wrong. Read the whole thing…

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187 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:14:59am

I have a strong urge to add Newt to my "people who are all but always wrong" list along with William Kristol, and George Will....

2 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:16:09am

Not to mention that, later, Cordoba was reconquered by the Christians. The Almohads defeated the Almoravids, who had defeated the much more moderate Caliphs there previously-- and were then defeated in turn by the Christians and driven out of Spain.

So I've really failed to understand how naming a place after a city that, while it was Muslim, was a flourishing center of ecumenical thought and tolerance and then was conquered first by more radical Muslims and then by Christians is supposed to symbolize a Muslim victory.

Finally: I'd rather have been a Jew under the caliphs in Cordoba than under the Catholic Inquisition in Cordoba.

3 TedStriker  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:17:28am

Why am I thinking that Newt, "anti-jihad" bloggers, and fundamentalist wingnuts would have no problems with (and would be cheering on) someone trying to build anything resembling a Christian church somewhere that's historically overwhelmingly Muslim, such as SA (religious laws aside)?

4 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:21:39am

re: #2 Obdicut

Finally: I'd rather have been a Jew under the caliphs in Cordoba than under the Catholic Inquisition in Cordoba.


yup

5 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:25:29am

re: #2 Obdicut

Not to mention that, later, Cordoba was reconquered by the Christians. The Almohads defeated the Almoravids, who had defeated the much more moderate Caliphs there previously-- and were then defeated in turn by the Christians and driven out of Spain.

So I've really failed to understand how naming a place after a city that, while it was Muslim, was a flourishing center of ecumenical thought and tolerance and then was conquered first by more radical Muslims and then by Christians is supposed to symbolize a Muslim victory.

Finally: I'd rather have been a Jew under the caliphs in Cordoba than under the Catholic Inquisition in Cordoba.

Alhambra Decree

The Alhambra Decree (also known as the Edict of Expulsion) was an edict issued on 31 March 1492 by the joint Catholic Monarchs of Spain (Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon) ordering the expulsion of Jews from the Kingdom of Spain and its territories and possessions by 31 July of that year.

The edict was formally revoked on 16 December 1968,[2] following the Second Vatican Council. Today, the number of Jews in Spain is estimated at 50,000.

Continues.

Image: 570px-Expulsion_judios-en.svg.png

6 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:27:16am

re: #5 Gus 802

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

7 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:27:28am

What Newt and his ilk won't tell you is that the biggest desecration to ever happen on the site of the Cordoba religious structure was the decision of to remove a portion of the Mosque arches right in the middle of the complex and have it replaced with a Catholic chapel. In other words, the Great Mosque of Cordoba used have 30% more double arched columns and was even more amazing than it is now! To be fair, were it not for King Charles V (who was deeply impressed by the Architecture and had some respect for Spain's Moorish past), the entire structure plus the Alhambra would have likely been torn down by the Spanish Catholic fanatics of the 16th century. That's another detail the "anti-Jihadists" won't tell you either....

8 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:31:12am

You can also read more about what happened with Spanish Jews after the reconquista here: The Virtual Jewish History Tour - Spain

Excerpt:

Massacre of 1391

Under the rule of John I (1379-1390), things grew even worse for the Jewish community of Spain. Jewish courts were forbidden from calling for capital punishment, Jews were forced to change prayers deemed offensive to the Church, and people were forbidden to convert to Judaism on pain of becoming property of the State. Anti-Semitic violence also increased during this period, and Jews were often beaten or even killed in the streets.

A revolt broke out in Seville after the death of King John I in 1390, leading to a period of disorder which greatly affected the Jewish community of Spain in the coming years. On Ash Wednesday 1391, Ferrand Martinez, the Archdeacon of Ecija, urged Christians to kill or baptize the Jews of Spain. On June 6, the mob attacked the Juderia in Seville from all sides and murdered 4,000 Jews; the rest submitted to baptism as the only means of escaping death. The riots then spread across the countryside destroying many synagogues and murdering thousands of Jews in the streets. During the months-long riots, the Cordova Juderia was burned down and over 5,000 Jews ruthlessly murdered regardless of age or sex. Again, more Jews converted as the only way to escape death.

Soon after, a series of laws were passed to reduce the Jews to poverty and further humiliate them. Under these laws, the Jews were ordered to:

1) Live by themselves in enclosed Juderias;
2) Banned from practicing medicine, surgery, or chemistry;
3) Banned from selling commodities such as bread, wine, flour, meat, etc.;
4) Banned from engaging in handicrafts or trades of any kind;
5) Forbidden to hire Christian servants, farm hands, lamplighters, or gravediggers;
6) Banned from eating drinking, bathing, holding intimate conversation with, visiting, or giving presents to Christians;
7) Banned from holding public offices or acting as money-brokers or agents;
8) Christian women, married or unmarried, were forbidden to enter the Juderia either by day or by night;
9) Allowed no self-jurisdiction whatever, nor might they, without royal permission, levy taxes for communal purposes;
10) Forbidden to assume the title of “Don”;
11) Forbidden to carry arms;
12) Forbidden to trim beard or hair;
13) Jewesses were required to wear plain, long garments of coarse material reaching to the feet, and Jews were forbidden to wear garments made of fine material;
14) On pain of loss of property and even of slavery, Jews were forbidden to leave the country, and any grandee or knight who protected or sheltered a fugitive Jew was punished with a fine of 150,000 maravedís for the first offense.

These laws were strictly enforced, and calculated to compel the Jews to embrace Christianity.

9 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:31:13am

re: #5 Gus 802

Those included my ancestors, who were variously killed, forced to convert, adopted into Christian families with no knowledge of their ancestry, and sent to the Carribbean as indentured servants-- basically slaves.

In addition, those who had previous been Muslim but converted, or were from Muslim families, were also deported-- and their property confiscated.

In 1609 King Philip III, upon the advice of his financial adviser the Duke of Lerma and Archbishop of Valencia Juan de Ribera, decreed the Expulsion of the Moriscos. Hundreds of thousands of Moriscos were expelled, some of them probably sincere Christians. This was further fueled by the religious intolerance of Archbishop Ribera who quoted the Old Testament texts ordering the enemies of God to be slain without mercy and setting forth the duties of kings to extirpate them. The edict required: 'The Moriscos to depart, under the pain of death and confiscation, without trial or sentence... to take with them no money, bullion, jewels or bills of exchange.... just what they could carry.' So successful was the enterprise, in the space of months, Spain was emptied of its Moriscos. Expelled were the Moriscos of Aragon, Murcia, Catalonia, Castile, Mancha and Extremadura. As for the Moriscos of Granada, such as the Herrador family who held positions in the Church and magistracy, they still had to struggle against exile and confiscation.

I'm sure many of those expelled were not true converts-- just as many of my ancestors were not true converts, but practiced their faith in secret.

I have noticed in recent times a tendency of Christians to try to rehabilitate the historic treatment of Jews by Christians-- particularly making claims that Muslims were historically worse. This is untrue, and the history of Spain is a good microcosm of that.

I don't think this is anything inherent in Christianity or in Islam; it's just history.

10 cliffster  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:31:26am

Wow, Newt is such a jerk. How could he have possibly made such a nasty and egregiously misleading statement? I hope they name one of the toilet bowls after him.

11 Racer X  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:31:31am

Massive Arctic ice island drifting toward shipping lanes

The biggest Arctic “ice island” to form in nearly 50 years — a 250-square-kilometre behemoth described as four times the size of Manhattan — has been discovered after a Canadian scientist scanning satellite images of northwest Greenland spotted a giant break in the famed Petermann Glacier.

About one-quarter of Petermann’s 70-kilometre-long floating ice shelf has split from the main glacier and is now drifting in a fiord toward open water. It will eventually track a route south, toward Canadian shipping lanes along the Baffin Island and Newfoundland coasts, as do most icebergs calved from Greenland’s shoreline glaciers — including the one that struck and sank the Titanic in 1912.

12 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:32:23am

OT:

Omigosh, don't tell Newt but there are now 3 women on the Supreme Court! (Kagan now sworn in)

13 aurelius  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:32:37am

Cordoba was just a Muslim city in Europe. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing wrong with naming a new masjid and community center in lower Manhattan after Cordoba. It's as reasonable and culturally sensitive as any other name.

Grow up, teabaggers. What would you prefer we name it? The "Islam Sucks Community Center"? With a Pig Appreciation Library and a Mohammed Drawing Annex?

14 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:33:20am

re: #9 Obdicut

Yes, as noted above in the Massacre of 1391.

15 Jeff In Ohio  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:33:25am

Please, its just one more educationalist apologizing for fitting the facts to the conclusions. We won't have this problem once Jesus is restored to his throne at the White House.

16 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:34:40am

re: #10 cliffster

Wow, Newt is such a jerk. How could he have possibly made such a nasty and egregiously misleading statement? I hope they name one of the toilet bowls after him.

What do you have against toilet bowls?
///

17 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:37:23am

We now await for Newt Gingrich to comment on the aftermath of the Reconquista and its effects (by way of the Catholic Church) on the Jewish population of Spain.

18 webevintage  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:38:25am
This fact, the transformation of a church into a mosque, is the only thing we should think of when we hear a modern Muslim use the word “Cordoba,” according to Mr. Gingrich.

Every time I hear the word “Cordoba" I think of "rich, Corinthian leather"...not sure why.


Newt, Newt, Newt...there is nothing like a new Trad Catholic in love with the Medieval Church and the Holy Roman Empire.

19 jamesfirecat  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:38:59am

re: #13 aurelius

Cordoba was just a Muslim city in Europe. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing wrong with naming a new masjid and community center in lower Manhattan after Cordoba. It's as reasonable and culturally sensitive as any other name.

Grow up, teabaggers. What would you prefer we name it? The "Islam Sucks Community Center"? With a Pig Appreciation Library and a Mohammed Drawing Annex?

Needs more blackjack and hookers....

20 Four More Tears  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:40:10am
Everything you’ve been told about Cordoba by the “anti-jihad” bloggers is wrong.
21 Four More Tears  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:40:29am

re: #19 jamesfirecat

Needs more blackjack and hookers...

Forget the blackjack!

22 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:41:31am

I'm tempted to build a Mosque in my front yard.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:43:14am

re: #2 Obdicut

Finally: I'd rather have been a Jew under the caliphs in Cordoba than under the Catholic Inquisition in Cordoba.

Damn skippy. There is a reason that the Jews sometimes backed the Muslims as they fought their way up Spain--Christian Spain was intolerant under the Visigoths, and it was intolerant under the Reyes Catolicos of the Reconquista.

People try as hard as they can to 'undo' the history of tolerance and interfaith cooperation in al-Andalus, but the truth is, by a medieval standard, it was a remarkable society, and an inspiring one.

If your 'one size fits all' version of Islam is so threatened by the knowledge that there have been benevolent and flowering Muslim societies, you need a better grip on something. History, human nature, reality.

24 aurelius  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:43:40am

How about hookers serving bacon sandwiches? With baconnaise.

Yum.

I have a vision for a general layout of the cafe and gift shop. Mostly baconnaise-focused. Need some infrastructure for that.

re: #21 JasonA

Forget the blackjack!

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:44:26am

re: #3 talon_262

Why am I thinking that Newt, "anti-jihad" bloggers, and fundamentalist wingnuts would have no problems with (and would be cheering on) someone trying to build anything resembling a Christian church somewhere that's historically overwhelmingly Muslim, such as SA (religious laws aside)?

BTW, the Great Mosque of Cordoba is presently known as the Catedral de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción.

26 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:45:07am

Heh, someone on FoxNews Watch just stated that there is a strip club closer to the WTC site than this Mosque will be.
Anyone know it that's true?
Lol.

27 Ericus58  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:45:21am

re: #25 SanFranciscoZionist

BTW, the Great Mosque of Cordoba is presently known as the Catedral de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción.

Always with the cool words....

;)

28 Four More Tears  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:47:37am

re: #26 Varek Raith

Heh, someone on FoxNews Watch just stated that there is a strip club closer to the WTC site than this Mosque will be.
Anyone know it that's true?
Lol.

I'd love to see the Park 51 people complain about the strip club and then watch Fox News defend the establishment.

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:47:48am

re: #8 Gus 802

You can also read more about what happened with Spanish Jews after the reconquista here: The Virtual Jewish History Tour - Spain

Excerpt:

The Muslims met with similar treatment, and forced mass conversions after 1492. And, BTW, if you want to get an experience of the genuine vile racist vibe that ruled newly Christian Spain, get Rodan el Loco going on the Moriscos sometime.

30 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:47:57am

re: #28 JasonA

I'd love to see the Park 51 people complain about the strip club and then watch Fox News defend the establishment.

"It's a historical landmark!"

/

31 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:49:21am

re: #30 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

"It's a historical landmark!"

/

Don't laugh

I saw "Bubbles" LaRue perform there in the early 70's!!
/

32 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:49:49am

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

The Muslims met with similar treatment, and forced mass conversions after 1492. And, BTW, if you want to get an experience of the genuine vile racist vibe that ruled newly Christian Spain, get Rodan el Loco going on the Moriscos sometime.

Oh I'm sure we've already ruined Rodan el Loco's afternoon already. ;)

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:49:55am

re: #9 Obdicut


I don't think this is anything inherent in Christianity or in Islam; it's just history.

Bingo.

One thing that struck me, reading the history of the Hebron Massacre in 1920 was that some Jews survived because they had Muslim neighbors who took them in and hid them, or otherwise protected them. It's remarkable similar to the stories that come out of the Shoah, where some remarkable Christians were moved to act on their conscience, rather than the society around them's prejudice, and protect their Jewish friends and neighbors.

People is people. There is no such thing as a special religion which changes all the rules.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:50:30am

re: #12 Thanos

OT:

Omigosh, don't tell Newt but there are now 3 women on the Supreme Court! (Kagan now sworn in)

That should please Pat Buchanan. He's been worried about diversity.

35 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:50:57am

re: #13 aurelius

Cordoba was just a Muslim city in Europe. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing wrong with naming a new masjid and community center in lower Manhattan after Cordoba. It's as reasonable and culturally sensitive as any other name.

Grow up, teabaggers. What would you prefer we name it? The "Islam Sucks Community Center"? With a Pig Appreciation Library and a Mohammed Drawing Annex?

It's actually, I think, quite culturally hopeful.

36 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:52:18am

re: #25 SanFranciscoZionist

BTW, the Great Mosque of Cordoba is presently known as the Catedral de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción.

....and with the decline of Christianity in Europe combined with the sex abuse cases the Muslims might soon be able to purchase the property.

37 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:52:19am

A lot of folks seem to think that some of these politicians are turning hard right in order to win primaries, garner donations, etc. I suspect that they (the pols) feel like they're finally in a comfortable environment where they can really let their true thoughts be known.

38 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:52:33am

re: #26 Varek Raith

Heh, someone on FoxNews Watch just stated that there is a strip club closer to the WTC site than this Mosque will be.
Anyone know it that's true?
Lol.

Here it is -- street view.

It's called New York Dolls. The other side of the block for Park51.

39 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:53:26am

re: #38 Gus 802

Here it is -- street view.

It's called New York Dolls. The other side of the block for Park51.

HA!
Thanks.

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:53:34am

re: #18 webevintage

Every time I hear the word “Cordoba" I think of "rich, Corinthian leather"...not sure why.

They don't call it 'Cordovan' for nothing.

Apropos of nothing at all, I read a travel guide of Spain in the 50s by a gentleman who found some remarkable cultural oddities as he went around.

One of the things I found fascinating was that in Seville, the town swordsmiths were still, letter by letter, since the language itself was long lost, putting inscriptions from the Koran on sword blades.

Also, he found a town where one of the puppet figures from the local parade was an evil witch named---Ana Bolena.

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:53:54am

re: #22 Varek Raith

I'm tempted to build a Mosque in my front yard.

Varek, what would you do with a mosque in your front yard?

42 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:54:21am

re: #39 Varek Raith

HA!
Thanks.

Website: [Link: www.nydollsclub.com...]

NSFW and those under 18 years of age.

43 Four More Tears  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:54:37am

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

Varek, what would you do with a mosque in your front yard?

Blast the call to prayer at 5 AM. I just hope his call to prayer consists of Rage Against the Machine...

44 Ericus58  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:54:39am

I am shocked and dismayed that a strip club is soo close to that Sacred Ground. We need a Rally!!
/

Seriously though, build Park51. Move on.

45 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:55:15am

re: #38 Gus 802

Here it is -- street view.

It's called New York Dolls. The other side of the block for Park51.

Rotate the scene to the other side of the street

A storefront called "AMISH"

I didn't think there was a large straw hat/ buggy whip market on Broadway!!
/

46 Four More Tears  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:55:17am

re: #42 Gus 802

Website: [Link: www.nydollsclub.com...]

NSFW and those under 18 years of age.

LGF. Researching every story as thoroughly as possible...

47 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:55:26am

re: #18 webevintage

Every time I hear the word “Cordoba" I think of "rich, Corinthian leather"...not sure why.

Not this?

Image: Ricardo_And_Cordoba.jpg

48 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:55:42am

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

Varek, what would you do with a mosque in your front yard?

GET OFF MY LAWN, YOU DAMN KIDS!

49 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:56:29am

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

Varek, what would you do with a mosque in your front yard?

I dunno.
I also want a Gothic Cathedral.

50 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:56:31am

re: #45 sattv4u2

Rotate the scene to the other side of the street

A storefront called "AMISH"

I didn't think there was a large straw hat/ buggy whip market on Broadway!!
/

Yeah. That's the Amish grocery store. Forgot the exact name. It's not really connected to the Amish. Has several locations around NYC.

51 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:56:36am

re: #37 tnguitarist

A lot of folks seem to think that some of these politicians are turning hard right in order to win primaries, garner donations, etc. I suspect that they (the pols) feel like they're finally in a comfortable environment where they can really let their true thoughts be known.

I'm of the opinion that it's a little of column A, little of column B. The incumbents, the good ol' boys who won't be removed from office 'cept for an "Act of God," are free to let their hair down. At the same time, the ones whose asses are on the line in primaries are tacking to the right either to be "more conservative" than Tea Party challengers or to head off accusations that they're "RINOs."

52 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:56:56am

Whenever you try to discuss any issue with a wingnut, keep in mind that he or she is probably operating from an entirely different historical universe.
In their universe:
-The US is a Christian nation founded by pious Christians like Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine.
-The US was a virtual paradise before 1963, when the case of Murray vs. Curlett outlawed God in schools and started the process of decay.
-The Feds didn't do anything but collect customs duties and chase counterfeiters before FDR came along.
-Joe McCarthy was right.
-The Civil War wasn't about slavery except in the minds of evil Yankee propagandists, many of whom were foreigners anyway.
-Crime was virtually unknown before the invention of video games or at least cable TV.
-There is no history at all before 4000 BC, because that's when the Earth was created.

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:58:48am

re: #45 sattv4u2

Rotate the scene to the other side of the street

A storefront called "AMISH"

I didn't think there was a large straw hat/ buggy whip market on Broadway!!
/

It's a somewhat famous gourmet grocery store, IIRC.

54 Randall Gross  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:59:01am

OT: Wednesday's moon

Image: moon-080410.jpg

55 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:59:04am

re: #52 Shiplord Kirel

Whenever you try to discuss any issue with a wingnut, keep in mind that he or she is probably operating from an entirely different historical universe.
In their universe:
-The US is a Christian nation founded by pious Christians like Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine.
-The US was a virtual paradise before 1963, when the case of Murray vs. Curlett outlawed God in schools and started the process of decay.
-The Feds didn't do anything but collect customs duties and chase counterfeiters before FDR came along.
-Joe McCarthy was right.
-The Civil War wasn't about slavery except in the minds of evil Yankee propagandists, many of whom were foreigners anyway.
-Crime was virtually unknown before the invention of video games or at least cable TV.
-There is no history at all before 4000 6000 BC, because that's when the Earth was created.

C'MOM ,,give them a LITTLE credit !!!

56 Pacificlady  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:59:17am

So let me understand this, Jews have been treated savagely by Christians and Muslims over the ages. What else is new? However right now, I would rather be a Jew in Italy than in Yemen or Saudi Arabia. And what has that got to do with a mosque in NYC near Ground Zero? If you believe picking the name Cordoba is coincidental, I got a bridge in NY to sell you. Having said that, this is America and they can build a mosque any where the zoning law allows. I just can't wait until the Iman decides to call all his believers to prayer five times a day. All those NYC liberals are going to love that. And he will try.

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:59:18am

re: #48 sattv4u2

GET OFF MY LAWN, YOU DAMN KIDS!

They just keep coming back and praying, even after he turns the hose on them.

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:59:29am

re: #49 Varek Raith

I dunno.
I also want a Gothic Cathedral.

How big is this front yard?

59 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:59:34am

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a somewhat famous gourmet grocery store, IIRC.

Amish Market Tribeca

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:00:27pm

re: #55 sattv4u2

C'MOM ,,give them a LITTLE credit !!!

No, no, he's right--that 6000 years includes the 2000 AD.

61 Ericus58  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:01:13pm

Somebody just farted here......

62 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:01:17pm

re: #56 Pacificlady

Please. At least try to read the article.

No, the choice of the name isn't "coincidence," but it's not a sinister plot to mock America. If you bother to read the article that's the subject of this thread, you'll discover what the true motivation is, and there's nothing secret or sinister about it.

63 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:01:18pm

re: #54 Thanos

OT: Wednesday's moon

Image: moon-080410.jpg

nice

64 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:01:28pm

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

How big is this front yard?

Now? Small.
After I annex the neighborhood?...

65 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:01:41pm

re: #56 Pacificlady

I just can't wait until the Iman decides to call all his believers to prayer five times a day.

You've never been to a big city, have you?

Doubtful the "calls" could even be heard over the din of cab drivers yelling "YEAH,,WELL FUCK OFF!!"

66 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:02:26pm

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

No, no, he's right--that 6000 years includes the 2000 AD.

DAMN ,,learn sumfin new every day here

67 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:03:00pm

re: #65 sattv4u2

I just can't wait until the Iman decides to call all his believers to prayer five times a day.

You've never been to a big city, have you?

Doubtful the "calls" could even be heard over the din of cab drivers yelling "YEAH,,WELL FUCK OFF!!"

And satt wandering around the city yelling, "Get off my lawn!"

68 Pacificlady  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:03:27pm

Charles, read my e-mail. I didn't say it was sinister, just not a coincidence.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:03:30pm

re: #56 Pacificlady

So let me understand this, Jews have been treated savagely by Christians and Muslims over the ages. What else is new? However right now, I would rather be a Jew in Italy than in Yemen or Saudi Arabia. And what has that got to do with a mosque in NYC near Ground Zero? If you believe picking the name Cordoba is coincidental, I got a bridge in NY to sell you. Having said that, this is America and they can build a mosque any where the zoning law allows. I just can't wait until the Iman decides to call all his believers to prayer five times a day. All those NYC liberals are going to love that. And he will try.

Yeah, the NYC liberals staggering out of NY Dolls at five in the morning are going to get to hear the call to prayer as they duck into the Amish Grocery for aspirin. Might do them some good, come to think of it.

I don't think the name is coincidental, I think the name is positive. Cordoba, 'the ornament of the world' was a shining light in the darkness of the Middle Ages.

And I love the way the people of NY are heroic 9/11 survivors until they do something someone don't like, at which point they become 'NYC liberals' again.

70 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:03:41pm

re: #33 SanFranciscoZionist

Bingo.

One thing that struck me, reading the history of the Hebron Massacre in 1920 was that some Jews survived because they had Muslim neighbors who took them in and hid them, or otherwise protected them. It's remarkable similar to the stories that come out of the Shoah, where some remarkable Christians were moved to act on their conscience, rather than the society around them's prejudice, and protect their Jewish friends and neighbors.

People is people. There is no such thing as a special religion which changes all the rules.

Religions do differ, though. Under the Aztecs, human sacrifice was an integral part of the state religion and it was practiced on a massive scale.

Human nature didn't protect captives destined for heart removal.

71 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:03:54pm

re: #54 Thanos

OT: Wednesday's moon

Image: moon-080410.jpg

Preferred Moon

[Link: www.cheeseplay.com...]

72 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:04:03pm

Argh.

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:04:35pm

re: #66 sattv4u2

DAMN ,,learn sumfin new every day here

Just watch Colbert:

"The earth is 6000 years old! Always has been! Always will be!"

74 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:05:15pm

re: #72 Charles

Argh.

Aye, matey.

75 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:06:22pm

The Christian expulsion of Jews from Iberia was so extreme and caused so many forced Conversos and Jews to migrate to Mexico that for a time the term Mexican was used in the New World as a clever way of implying Jewish without actually having to say it. Then the Inquisition came to Mexico and all the crypto-Jews who weren't crypto enough caught pure hell.

The idea that Christians should act like friends to the Jews is a rather new one, and has really only gained traction since modern Israel's founding in the aftermath of the Holocaust. I suspect that deep down, many of them just want to see the Temple rebuilt, and that this new found love for Jews is simply a means to the end.

76 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:06:26pm

re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist

Just watch Colbert:

"The earth is 6000 years old! Always has been! Always will be!"

Can't

I'm too busy trying to research out which of my ancestors rode what kind of dinosaur

77 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:07:45pm

It's the secret of the name Cordoba/Cordova!!11ty

Jacob De Cordova, (1808 Spanish Town, Jamaica -1868), was the founder of the Jamaica Gleaner. He settled in Texas in 1839 and lived in Galveston. After living in Galveston, De Cordova moved to Houston, Texas where he was elected a Texas House of Representatives to the second Texas Legislature in the year 1847.

***

DE CORDOVA, JACOB RAPHAEL (1808–1868). Jacob Raphael De Cordova, Texas land agent and colonizer, was born in Spanish Town (near Kingston), Jamaica, on June 6, 1808, the youngest of three sons of Judith and Raphael De Cordova. Since his mother died at his birth, he was reared by an aunt in England. He was well educated and became proficient in English, French, Spanish, German, and Hebrew. His father, a Jewish Jamaican coffee grower and exporter, moved to Philadelphia, where he became president of Congregation Mikveh Israel in 1820. Jacob joined his father in Philadelphia, and there he married Rebecca Sterling about 1826 and learned the printing trade. His ancestors had supported themselves as printers for generations, beginning in the sixteenth century, when a De Cordova in Spain published Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca's explorations in Texas. In 1834 Jacob moved back to Kingston, where he and his brother Joshua started a newspaper, the Kingston Daily Gleaner that still exists today as The Gleaner. In early 1836 Jacob went to New Orleans, where he shipped cargoes of staples to Texas during its struggle for independence. At this time he served a term as Grand Master of the Odd Fellows. After the battle of San Jacinto he visited the Republic of Texas to install members in the Odd Fellows lodges, the first established outside the United States...

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:07:45pm

re: #70 lostlakehiker

Religions do differ, though. Under the Aztecs, human sacrifice was an integral part of the state religion and it was practiced on a massive scale.

Human nature didn't protect captives destined for heart removal.

True, and religions do influence culture, and perception. Don't take my statement as meaning anything too broad.

Cortez was shocked by Aztec sacrificial practices, too, absolutely horrified, and I'm sure I would have been too. Of course, he came from a culture where they were burning relapsos and secret Jews at the stake at court events, and he brought that culture to Mexico.

It is complicated.

79 tnguitarist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:08:37pm

re: #76 sattv4u2

Can't

I'm too busy trying to research out which of my ancestors rode what kind of dinosaur

Well, it wasn't a triceratops.

80 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:09:26pm

re: #75 goddamnedfrank

Jews to migrate to Mexico

I wondered why so many Mexicans were named Jose Weinstein and Chaim Gonsalves

81 Pacificlady  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:11:52pm

Re: sattv4u2

Lived on 1st and 29th across from Bellevue Hospital for 9 years. Does that qualify.

82 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:12:59pm

re: #81 Pacificlady

Re: sattv4u2

Lived on 1st and 29th across from Bellevue Hospital for 9 years. Does that qualify.

Qualifies that you lived there (if you say you did)

Doesn't qualify anything else you've stated , though!

but nice try!

83 Ericus58  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:13:00pm

re: #75 goddamnedfrank

The Christian expulsion of Jews from Iberia was so extreme and caused so many forced Conversos and Jews to migrate to Mexico that for a time the term Mexican was used in the New World as a clever way of implying Jewish without actually having to say it. Then the Inquisition came to Mexico and all the crypto-Jews who weren't crypto enough caught pure hell.

The idea that Christians should act like friends to the Jews is a rather new one, and has really only gained traction since modern Israel's founding in the aftermath of the Holocaust. I suspect that deep down, many of them just want to see the Temple rebuilt, and that this new found love for Jews is simply a means to the end.

I have to disagree.
I think for the majority of us the horror of the Holocaust forced us to take a hard look at our past and change. The end of the path that Bigotry and Hate will lead. Never again.

84 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:14:02pm

re: #80 sattv4u2

Jews to migrate to Mexico

I wondered why so many Mexicans were named Jose Weinstein and Chaim Gonsalves

He's not Mexican (originally from Chile), but it is a fact that "Don Francisco", the host of "Sabado Gigante" since 1962 and one of the biggest Latin American celebs is a Jew whose actual name is Mario Luis Kreutzberger Blumenfeld.

85 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:15:05pm

re: #84 bratwurst

waytomissthepoint (and the joke)

86 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:15:20pm

Yeah, I love how they're so flippant about Christian treatment of Jews back then versus Muslim treatment of Jews back then, as though such things are unheard of today. Might be because, between now and then, outright hostility and murderous intent was replaced with depraved indifference and secret loathing. I've lost track of the number of stories I've read over the years from such bastions of "tolerance" as France, where people turned a blind eye to the beating, rape, and murder of Jewish citizens because it "wasn't their problem." Or that figure of high-minded journalism, Helen Thomas, telling Jews to "go back to Germany and Poland."

87 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:17:05pm

re: #85 sattv4u2

waytomissthepoint (and the joke)

Hilarious.

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:18:22pm

re: #86 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Yeah, I love how they're so flippant about Christian treatment of Jews back then versus Muslim treatment of Jews back then, as though such things are unheard of today. Might be because, between now and then, outright hostility and murderous intent was replaced with depraved indifference and secret loathing. I've lost track of the number of stories I've read over the years from such bastions of "tolerance" as France, where people turned a blind eye to the beating, rape, and murder of Jewish citizens because it "wasn't their problem." Or that figure of high-minded journalism, Helen Thomas, telling Jews to "go back to Germany and Poland."

It's not that there isn't, today, at this moment in time, really scary stuff coming out of the Muslim world.

It's that people like, well, Newt, rewrite history so that today's bad guys have always been the bad guys, world without end, Islam is inherently bad, mmmm'kay? and dismiss the hope that we'll come through this time too and maybe get to a better one.

89 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:19:22pm

From the Mexican Inquisition:

One group that suffered during this time were the so-called “crypto-Jews” of Portuguese descent. Jews who refused to convert to Christianity had been expelled from Spain in 1492 and from Portugal in 1537. When Spain and Portugal united shortly thereafter, many converted Portuguese Jews came to New Spain looking for commercial opportunities. In 1642, 150 of these individuals were arrested within three or four days, and the Inquisition began a series of trials. These people were accused of being ‘judaisers,’ meaning they still held Judaic beliefs. Many of these were merchants involved in New Spain’s principal activities. On 11 April 1649, the viceregal state staged the largest ever auto da fe in New Spain, in which twelve of the accused were burned after being strangulated and one person was burned alive. Most of the remainder were ‘reconciled’ and deported to Spain.

The best known case of this type was that of Luis de Carvajal. Born Jewish in Spain in the 16th century, he was a sincere convent to Christianity. However, he was married to a woman who would not give up her Hebraic faith even though he tried to convert her. Finally, when she decided to stay behind as he went to the West Indies to trade wine, he moved on to New Spain. There he became a businessman but was more noted as a soldier. He fought for the Spanish against the Indians in Xalapa and the Huasteca areas. Having made something of a name for himself, he brought a number of his family over from Spain to live there. His economic and political fortunes gradually reversed themselves as businesses failed and it was rumored that the family were secretly practicing Judaic rites. He was brought before the Inquisition and had 22 chapters of charges read against him but the main charge was reverting back to the Judaic faith. Under torture he not only confessed to abandoning the faith, but denounced associates and even members of his own family. On 8 January 1596, he was executed in the Zocalo along with his mother and three sisters.

90 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:21:20pm

OT

It's official...

Kagan Sworn In as 112th Supreme Court Justice

WASHINGTON — Elena Kagan was sworn in Saturday as the 112th person and the fourth woman to serve on the Supreme Court, continuing a generational and demographic transformation of the nation’s highest bench...

Splodey heads to follow.

91 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:21:47pm

re: #90 Gus 802

OT

It's official...

Kagan Sworn In as 112th Supreme Court Justice

Splodey heads to follow.

Image: 08kagan2-popup-v2.jpg

92 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:23:17pm

re: #75 goddamnedfrank

The Christian expulsion of Jews from Iberia was so extreme and caused so many forced Conversos and Jews to migrate to Mexico that for a time the term Mexican was used in the New World as a clever way of implying Jewish without actually having to say it. Then the Inquisition came to Mexico and all the crypto-Jews who weren't crypto enough caught pure hell.

The idea that Christians should act like friends to the Jews is a rather new one, and has really only gained traction since modern Israel's founding in the aftermath of the Holocaust. I suspect that deep down, many of them just want to see the Temple rebuilt, and that this new found love for Jews is simply a means to the end.

Indeed and which I think led up to the founding of Vatican II in the 60's.

When talking about Cordoba in the 12th century, I always think of Maimonides, the Ram Bam. For those who don't know, he was one of Judaism's greatest scholars as well as a scientist and a physician. His most important contribution to Jewish life was the Mishnah, Judaism's oral teachings. As a physician and scientist, he wrote volumes of medical texts and was highly regarded and sought after, by both Christian and Muslim rulers. He chose to remain in Muslim countries.

The Ram Bam was born in Cordoba, Spain in 1135, which was regarding as the seat of learning. In fact, he was trained as a physician in Cordoba and Fes. He and his family lived well under Muslim rule until the reign of Almohades, a fanatical Muslim ruler who forced the Jews to convert to Islam or die. They then fled to Morocco (Fes). Later, they moved to Israel (Palestine) and finally to Egypt where he passed away.

While in Egypt, he became a physician to the sultan as well as the people of Cairo; Jew and Gentile, peasants and royals. He was highly regarded among the Muslims and preferred to live among them rather in Christian cities.

His life is fascinating, particularly in the context of when he lived which was during the Muslim conquests at a time that not all Muslim rulers treated their non-believers cruelly and Jews were able to build a life and become successful. All in the "shadow" of Islam's mosques.

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:23:21pm

re: #91 Gus 802

Image: 08kagan2-popup-v2.jpg

She's so adorable.

94 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:24:17pm

re: #90 Gus 802

continuing a generational and demographic transformation of the nation’s highest bench

Is that redundant? Isn't one's generation part of one's "demographic"?

95 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:24:18pm

the mexican jewish cultural festival - no, seriously..........

96 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:25:23pm

re: #94 wrenchwench

Is that redundant? Isn't one's generation part of one's "demographic"?

Yeah, I think you're right.

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:25:28pm

re: #92 marjoriemoon

Of course, there are the folks who would point out as the key fact of his life that the Rambam was run out of town by Muslims. The fact that he fled to different Muslims isn't even on their radar.

98 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:25:56pm

re: #95 wozzablog

the mexican jewish cultural festival - no, seriously...


[Video]

matzo Tacos ,,, mmmmmm!!!

99 zora  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:26:19pm

re: #75 goddamnedfrank

The Christian expulsion of Jews from Iberia was so extreme and caused so many forced Conversos and Jews to migrate to Mexico that for a time the term Mexican was used in the New World as a clever way of implying Jewish without actually having to say it. Then the Inquisition came to Mexico and all the crypto-Jews who weren't crypto enough caught pure hell.

The idea that Christians should act like friends to the Jews is a rather new one, and has really only gained traction since modern Israel's founding in the aftermath of the Holocaust. I suspect that deep down, many of them just want to see the Temple rebuilt, and that this new found love for Jews is simply a means to the end.

The 'Secret Jews' of San Luis Valley

[Link: www.smithsonianmag.com...]

long article, good read

100 Four More Tears  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:26:36pm

re: #93 SanFranciscoZionist

She's so adorable.

You sound like you want to cuddle with her.

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:27:50pm

re: #100 JasonA

You sound like you want to cuddle with her.

It's like seeing a kitten on the Supreme Court.

102 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:27:57pm

How could we forget the greatest Latino Jew of all?

Image: jp1.jpg

103 Targetpractice  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:29:12pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

It's not that there isn't, today, at this moment in time, really scary stuff coming out of the Muslim world.

It's that people like, well, Newt, rewrite history so that today's bad guys have always been the bad guys, world without end, Islam is inherently bad, mmm'kay? and dismiss the hope that we'll come through this time too and maybe get to a better one.

I remember reading in one of my school history books, years ago, about story involving a knight during the Crusades. While engaged in combat, the knight received a gash to his leg, forcing him to seek healing. There was no English (substituting because I can't remember which nationality he was supposed to be) healers available to help him, so he sought the help of a local Muslim healer, who used natives herbs and techniques to staunch the bleeding and prevent infection, assuring the knight he'd recover the use of his leg.

Finally, an English healer arrived and, shocked at the "barbaric" methods being used, tore off the bindings that were covering the gash and removed the medicinal mixtures applied. Having accomplished this, he saw the severity of the wound and decided that the leg had to come off. He ordered another knight to hack off the limb with an axe, only for his "patient" to bleed to death in the process.

104 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:31:59pm

re: #100 JasonA

You sound like you want to cuddle with her.

new from Mattel for the Holidays - "The 'Cuddle Me' Kagan"

105 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:33:31pm

re: #70 lostlakehiker

Religions do differ, though. Under the Aztecs, human sacrifice was an integral part of the state religion and it was practiced on a massive scale.

Human nature didn't protect captives destined for heart removal.


The Feast of The Flaying of Men.

106 webevintage  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:34:27pm

Sorry I made an comment and took off but all this talk of Cordoba and Spain made me go start a Spanish Tortilla.

107 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:34:39pm

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

Of course, there are the folks who would point out as the key fact of his life that the Rambam was run out of town by Muslims. The fact that he fled to different Muslims isn't even on their radar.

For sure. The fact is that Europe and surrounding countries weren't good to the Jews as a rule. In Muslim countries, they paid special taxes, but so did the Christians. I just find it very telling that the Ram Bam, when given an offer to work in England for the King, stayed in Egypt. 100s of years after this death, the Muslims still honored his birthday.

108 Four More Tears  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:35:03pm

Have any lizards used the electronic cigarette? I'm trying to find reviews for the damn things, but every "review" site is phony.

109 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:35:48pm

re: #108 JasonA

Have any lizards used the electronic cigarette? I'm trying to find reviews for the damn things, but every "review" site is phony.

Can't help you. I smoke a pipe.

110 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:37:41pm

re: #106 webevintage

Sorry I made an comment and took off but all this talk of Cordoba and Spain made me go start a Spanish Tortilla.

save me some............pwetty pwease :p

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:40:15pm

re: #108 JasonA

Have any lizards used the electronic cigarette? I'm trying to find reviews for the damn things, but every "review" site is phony.

How are those things supposed to work, anyway?

112 Four More Tears  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:43:47pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

How are those things supposed to work, anyway?

Think of it as a nicotine inhaler.

113 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:44:23pm

{cough} Just {cough} great {cough}.
Why {cough} do {cough} you {cough} ask {cough}

{HACK!}

114 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:44:40pm

Btw, an excellent book on the life of Maimonides and world history of the time is Maimonides: The Life and World of One of Civilization's Greatest Minds.

115 SpaceJesus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:44:54pm

doesn't newt like to fantasize about what would have happened if the south had won the civil war as well?

116 webevintage  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:46:04pm

To sum up the thread...Newt is a tool.

117 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:46:34pm

re: #115 SpaceJesus

doesn't newt like to fantasize about what would have happened if the south had won the war of northern aggression civil war as well?

fify /

118 webevintage  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:48:09pm

re: #110 wozzablog

save me some...pwetty pwease :p

So, so good.
And they last for a few days around here since no one but me likes the mix of eggs, potatoes, onion and peas.

119 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:49:44pm

re: #118 webevintage

So, so good.
And they last for a few days around here since no one but me likes the mix of eggs, potatoes, onion and peas.

wouldn't last long around me........ nom nom nom lurvin the munchables

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:51:10pm

re: #116 webevintage

To sum up the thread...Newt is a tool.

He's buying into a general trend I see of rewriting history to emphasize the threat of Islamic violence.

As someone who takes history, especially Jewish history in Europe and the Middle East very seriously, it makes me sad.

121 SueG  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:54:23pm

re: #13 aurelius

Al-Salam mosque? :)

122 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:54:58pm

re: #121 SueG

Al-SalamI mosque? :)

ftfy

123 Wozza Matter?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 12:58:22pm

laters

124 SueG  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:10:20pm

as a European knowing that in speeches of some muslim fanatics Spain is mentioned as Andalusia, which should be conquered ('back') - the name Cordoba also gives me the shivers. Its history does not mean much if crazy people use it as a symbol of muslim imperialism. If the mosque's name was more neutral (Mecca mosque, al-Salam mosque, or so) and the financing was open and transparent, there would be less reason to complain.
Further, even though if Dialogue is what you would care about, setting up a whole islamic centre in the near of Ground Zero causing some 9/11 victims extra sorrow, is not - least to say - tactical and pretty insensitive. If I'd be in charge I'd go look for some other place. Dialogue is what I would want. Dialogue is what should be the main purpose. If dialogue is built on pain and sorrow in the hearts of those who lost their love ones, I would not want it anymore.

but that's just my humble opinion

125 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:13:51pm

Big freaking sigh.

126 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:17:40pm

re: #124 SueG

What about the strip club? Shouldn't there have been some dialog about the strip club? (Besides here on this thread.)

127 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:19:31pm

re: #124 SueG

as a European knowing that in speeches of some muslim fanatics Spain is mentioned as Andalusia, which should be conquered ('back') - the name Cordoba also gives me the shivers. Its history does not mean much if crazy people use it as a symbol of muslim imperialism. If the mosque's name was more neutral (Mecca mosque, al-Salam mosque, or so) and the financing was open and transparent, there would be less reason to complain.
Further, even though if Dialogue is what you would care about, setting up a whole islamic centre in the near of Ground Zero causing some 9/11 victims extra sorrow, is not - least to say - tactical and pretty insensitive. If I'd be in charge I'd go look for some other place. Dialogue is what I would want. Dialogue is what should be the main purpose. If dialogue is built on pain and sorrow in the hearts of those who lost their love ones, I would not want it anymore.

but that's just my humble opinion

Another one who doesn't seem to know or care that there were also innocent Muslims who were victims of the 9/11 attacks. Their families don't count, apparently.

Some "9/11 family" groups have come out and endorsed the Park51 project. Apparently, they don't count either.

And this "whole Islamic center" will be open to everyone, including Jews, and will include a world class auditorium, a swimming pool, restaurants and other community facilities. It's not a giant dome with minarets, folks.

Please. This information is out there. If you're still spreading inaccurate rubbish, it's because you don't care about the facts.

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:23:00pm

re: #126 wrenchwench

What about the strip club? Shouldn't there have been some dialog about the strip club? (Besides here on this thread.)

Strippers didn't attack the World Trade Center.

//irrelevent, but also totally true!!

129 tradewind  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:23:25pm

re: #90 Gus 802

Kagan Sworn In


Seriously? First I've heard of it, thanks for that update! And did you know that she's Jewish, and was Dean at Harvard Law?

Splodey Heads to follow


Probably not so much, but I know you're hopin'.

130 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:25:22pm

re: #129 tradewind

Probably not so much, but I know you're hopin'.

Yeah, you're probably right. All of the wingnuts will take this lightly and rationally like they've been doing for the past two years.

/

131 tradewind  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:27:01pm

re: #127 Charles
Has there been a breakdown of families ' for ' vs families ' against ' ?
Not that the plans hinge on their vote, but if there was a poll of victims' relatives, guessing it wouldn't even be close.

132 tradewind  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:28:21pm

re: #130 Gus 802
I think it's sunk in, Gus. But keep alert, there could be an outbreak of hostage situations or violent protests any.... minute.... now.

133 Lidane  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:30:12pm

Interesting bit of irony-- one of the opponents of Cordoba House is currently building a museum atop a Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem.

But of course, it's only the Cordoba House project that's insensitive due to its location.

134 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:30:45pm

re: #132 tradewind

I think it's sunk in, Gus. But keep alert, there could be an outbreak of hostage situations or violent protests any... minute... now.

Yeah, it's sunk in alright. It's sunk into a wingnut conspiracy about getting her disbarred so now all of the wingnuts will think she should be in the SCOTUS much like they think Obama was born in Kenya. Nope, no hostage and violent protests. Just the torment of their own stupidity that lies between their ears.

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:31:17pm

re: #133 Lidane

Interesting bit of irony-- one of the opponents of Cordoba House is currently building a museum atop a Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem.

But of course, it's only the Cordoba House project that's insensitive due to its location.

Interesting. I'll have to look into that.

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:31:44pm

re: #132 tradewind

I think it's sunk in, Gus. But keep alert, there could be an outbreak of hostage situations or violent protests any... minute... now.

Probably just intense whining and keening.

137 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:36:37pm

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

Probably just intense whining and keening.

The difference between being partisan and being insane:

What I said about Roberts: "Oh, typical. Where does Bush find these people? Ah, screw it, he's qualified."

What I didn't say about Roberts: "He's in cahoots with terrorists to undermine the US legal system and replace it with Sharia!"

Similarly, you can sort out comments about Kagan into the partisan and the insane.

138 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:38:11pm

re: #124 SueG

If it was named "mecca mosque" it'd probably be a lot more extremist than Cordoba.

139 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:39:43pm

re: #138 Obdicut

If it was named "mecca mosque" it'd probably be a lot more extremist than Cordoba.

And, trust me, that name would not be appreciated by the people who don't like Cordoba.

Luckily, they have renamed it "Park51", which means nothing at all, and is therefore suitable, although very boring.

140 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:41:01pm

re: #138 Obdicut

If it was named "mecca mosque" it'd probably be a lot more extremist than Cordoba.

Big time. Let's face it. Even if they called it the USS George Washington Mosque they'd find something else to freak out about.

141 palomino  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:41:22pm

This is the same Gingrich who wrote a piece of crap alternative history of the Civil War. Guess how the War turns out in good ole boy Newt's fantasy version? Yes, the South wins Gettysburg, the War's decisive battle, and thus is propelled toward overall victory.

History, to Gingrich, is just one more tool in his ideological arsenal. Ironically, as America changes, history is literally passing by Gingrich.

142 tradewind  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:41:23pm

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist
Not even. The time for that is long past. There was never a chance to stop that nomination..... why cry/bitch/moan over spilled milk?
Most reasonable people, regardless of philosophy, understand that whether or not they like the choice, picking/replacing SCOTUS justices is the prerogative of the POTUS.
And until very recently, only the Democrats ever raised a stink. (see 'to bork ', v., recent addition to the vernacular ). Republicans have historically held their noses and confirmed with minimal fuss.

143 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:41:58pm

re: #140 Gus 802

Then they'd be smearing the name of a great man and Christian.

I mean, the original outcry was over the name. They changed it. And people are now seriously decrying the name change as some tricky tactic-- even though it was exactly what they demanded.

No pleasing bigots.

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:42:57pm

re: #140 Gus 802

Big time. Let's face it. Even if they called it the USS George Washington Mosque they'd find something else to freak out about.

True, although I have to say that I would find the existence of a USS George Washington Mosque very appealing. Would it have a nautical theme in the sanctuary?

145 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:44:25pm

re: #144 SanFranciscoZionist

True, although I have to say that I would find the existence of a USS George Washington Mosque very appealing. Would it have a nautical theme in the sanctuary?

Yep. Lots of brass which turns green -- the favorite color of Islam. ;)

146 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:45:33pm

re: #145 Gus 802

Yep. Lots of brass which turns green -- the favorite color of Islam. ;)

But they need to keep the mosque shipshape! All the brass needs to be polished!

147 Gus  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:46:29pm

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist

But they need to keep the mosque shipshape! All the brass needs to be polished!

Polish that brass! And when you're finished start all over again.

/

148 tweav  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 1:48:16pm

Three Things
1. Cordoba represents not only the high water mark of Muslim conquest it is actually the high water mark of Muslim culture too..See "Ornament of the World". This book points out the biggest enemy of the Muslim culture is the reactionary, primitive, and warlike nature of it's periodic fundamentalist "reformations"
2. Birthers are ignorant fools. The definition of "natural born American" was change by law in the 60's to anyone born in the US or anyone born of one or more American citizens anywhere in the world.
I know as I was born of American parents in Japan and was not able to be President until the Law was changed.
3. You must keep your eye on what's important... as a somewhat bi, agnostic I to am disgusted by the Christian right's hold on the GOP. But we need to clean house or none of the freedoms we cherish will exist, The trend in the Demo's and the GOP have been to increase the power and reach of the Federal government into ALL areas of our lives. I find the bedroom less important than my health and wealth. ( I am now 60 )
vote for the new guy for the next 4 elections. when all the old club is gone we may have a chance. Don't re-elect anyone.

149 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:24:58pm

re: #148 tweav

this seems like a very long-winded way of saying "they both do it!" Sorry, false equivalency, not buying it. The GOP has gone bonkers, the Democratic party has not, simple as that.

150 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:29:34pm

re: #148 tweav

vote for the new guy for the next 4 elections. when all the old club is gone we may have a chance. Don't re-elect anyone.

This makes no sense. What if the new guy is Sharon Angie, who's an incredibly bigoted, homophobic whackjob?

Vote for the best people running. Period.

151 SueG  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:30:23pm

re: #126 wrenchwench

I fail to see the logic. Was Mohammed Atta a stripper? Was the strip club built recently, after 2001?

152 SueG  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:31:20pm

re: #139 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah they did? Shame though that it keeps in mind of the people as the Cordoba mosque and it'll probably continue to be called like that.

153 SueG  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:32:03pm

re: #127 Charles

Like this one? [Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

154 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:33:25pm

re: #151 SueG

I fail to see the logic. Was Mohammed Atta a stripper? Was the strip club built recently, after 2001?

I didn't see the logic in your comment either.

Oh, well.

155 SueG  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:35:59pm

re: #133 Lidane

Even though I have my reservations concerning the story surrounding this muslim cemetry in Jerusalem, it would be hypocrite if true.

156 SueG  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:36:44pm

re: #154 wrenchwench

That's what I call a one-way conversation.

157 SueG  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:39:07pm

Anyway, Charles, do you think there would be protests if the community centre was built -without the mosque-? (And I'm not talking about racist shithats who will oppose anything who is not a "wasp", because they sure will protest anything like that.)

158 Reginald Perrin  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:41:31pm

re: #152 SueG

Ah they did? Shame though that it keeps in mind of the people as the Cordoba mosque and it'll probably continue to be called like that.


It "keeps in the minds" of you islamaphobes, the sane portion of society has moved on and only you silly people, who can't accept Islam are the ones obsessing about it.

159 SueG  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:46:46pm

re: #138 Obdicut

If it would be the Medina mosque you might be right as Mohammed faced war when he was in Medina.
Read this about the Sudanese Mahmoud Muhamed Taha, it's interesting: [Link: www.alfikra.org...]
Sad ending, though.

160 SueG  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:47:13pm

re: #158 Reginald Perrin

you do not even know me and call me an islamophobe. Nice.

161 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 2:52:32pm

re: #141 palomino

This is the same Gingrich who wrote a piece of crap alternative history of the Civil War. Guess how the War turns out in good ole boy Newt's fantasy version? Yes, the South wins Gettysburg, the War's decisive battle, and thus is propelled toward overall victory.

History, to Gingrich, is just one more tool in his ideological arsenal. Ironically, as America changes, history is literally passing by Gingrich.

I've always felt that the Confederacy was doomed to fail, even had it won the Civil War.

In my opinion its founding principle would have been, "If I don't wanna I don't haveta!" The first time Georgia, say, and Alabama got into a conflict over something one or both would have given the finger to the Confederacy and struck off on their own. By the turn of the Twentieth Century The South would have resembled Germany during the Thirty Years War.

My thoughts on the subject anyway.

162 captdiggs  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 3:09:29pm

re: #133 Lidane

Interesting bit of irony-- one of the opponents of Cordoba House is currently building a museum atop a Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem.

But of course, it's only the Cordoba House project that's insensitive due to its location.

Apparently, that's not true

Wiesenthal Center: ‘Museum of Tolerance not being built on Mamilla Cemetery’
February 12, 2010
[Link: www.jerusalemdispatch.com...]

163 Lidane  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 4:21:06pm

re: #162 captdiggs

I don't think there's a definitive answer, really. I'm getting different stories when I look it up on Google. Both sides, as usual, are simply pointing fingers at each other, accusing the other of illegal land grabs and who knows what else.

However, if it IS true, it would be the height of hypocrisy to decry a Muslim community center in New York as insensitive while building a museum on top of a Muslim cemetery elsewhere.

164 captdiggs  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 5:12:29pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

but the truth is, by a medieval standard, it was a remarkable society, and an inspiring one.

Except for the periodic slaughter of Jews...such as in Cordoba and Granada.

"On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power."
[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

165 captdiggs  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 5:14:14pm

re: #163 Lidane

I doubt it's true. Israel has very strict laws about archeological sites .

166 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 5:14:46pm

re: #164 captdiggs

Yes. By Medieval standards, it was remarkable.

From that page:

While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe

...

At various times, Jews in Muslim lands lived in relative peace and thrived culturally and economically.

Guess what was one of those times was?

Cordoba, under the Caliphs.

167 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 5:20:27pm

re: #157 SueG

Anyway, Charles, do you think there would be protests if the community centre was built -without the mosque-? (And I'm not talking about racist shithats who will oppose anything who is not a "wasp", because they sure will protest anything like that.)

Are you aware that Muslims have already been using the deserted Burlington Coat Factory building as a prayer center for quite a while?

It's too late. They're heeeeere.

168 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 5:31:33pm

re: #133 Lidane

Interesting bit of irony-- one of the opponents of Cordoba House is currently building a museum atop a Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem.

But of course, it's only the Cordoba House project that's insensitive due to its location.

The building the Simon Wiesenthal center wants to build in Israel allegedly on top of a Muslim cemetery really isn't on a cemetery. The bodies in the cemetery that existed there were already moved in 1945 when a business center was constructed on the site. All sanctioned by the Supreme Moslem Council at the time.

The Museum of Tolerance building, what the Wiesenthal center is now slated to construct, will be built on what currently is a parking lot. I would also mention the issue has been in the courts for years so everyone got a fair hearing, as they did for the center in NY.

The 1945 article also describes plans by the council to transfer remains buried in the cemetery to a separate, “walled reserve” and cites rulings from prominent Muslim clerics at the time allowing for the building plans to progress.

The Think Progress article, btw, links to some pretty heavy duty anti-Semitic sites (one has commentary from Norm Finkelstein).

169 Lidane  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 6:09:02pm

re: #168 marjoriemoon

In general, I'm wary of most sources for anything to do with Israel, on both sides of the divide. All of the issues surrounding Israel are so emotionally charged and have gone on for so long that I simply don't know who to trust. That said, it's interesting to me how a community center, which generally has positive implications for a neighborhood, has been received so negatively by some people and it's all due to religion.

As an atheist, I can't help but be awed at how we're still fighting the same religious battles that were around centuries ago, only now we tend to use words more than swords, at least here in the West.

170 JRCMYP  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 6:57:06pm

I love that he used the Catholic Encyclopedia to hit Newt over the head.

171 Tweety  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:11:57pm

153. SueG,

That's a remarkable testimony from a Muslim. The proposed centre may purport to be aiming for reconciliation among all faiths but it will be, first and foremost, an Islamic centre. And, as the author indicates, Islam should not be dominant here - especially since 9/11 was an act of Islamic terror and the terrorists will see the centre (including, of course, a mosque) as both a victory and a vindication of their domination of the infidel.

And what about the atheists who died on 9/11? Will this centre embrace their "faith" in the lack of a God as well? Would be good if people who view this as an insensitive hijacking of 9/11 commemorations by the very religion responsible for the atrocity were treated with a bit more respect and understanding.

OK, the centre will not be right on the WTC site, but Islam has a long history of erecting mosques on the ruins of the houses of worship of other faiths and of treating them with scant respect. When the Jordanians took over Jerusalem in 1948, they destroyed the synagogues and used Jewish gravestones as paving stones for roads and to build latrines. And the Al-Aksa mosque is built, of course, on the ruins of the ancient Jewish Temple.


56. PacificLady,

However right now, I would rather be a Jew in Italy than in Yemen or Saudi Arabia.

So would I. Most of Yemen's Jews were driven out of the country and to this day are not allowed to return. In the case of apartheid Saudi Arabia, the question is academic since there is no way the Saudis would allow a Jew to live there.


33. SanFranciscoZionist,

People is people. There is no such thing as a special religion which changes all the rules.

I disagree. What we see from Islam is mostly intolerance of the infidel and the obsessive striving for domination and the ascendancy of Islam. People cast a bit too much of a benevolent light on Islam. Yes there were periods of harmony but whatever the history, across the Islamic world today there is predominantly violent oppression of those of other faiths.

172 Tweety  Sat, Aug 7, 2010 11:21:22pm

168. marjoriemoon,

Good research. Anyone trying to suggest that the Israelis are disrespectful of other religions will find the exact opposite if they investigate the issue. There is complete freedom of religion in Israel.

173 SueG  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:33:50am

re: #167 Charles

No, I did not know. The one at 45 Park Place? But again, it's not about muslims not being allowed to pray (gee, they are); it's about the symbolism. You can have a neo-nazi club near Auschwitz already in some deserted place, but if neo-nazis are going to buy a place near Auschwitz where everyone is welcome and call the Stuermer it must raise your eyebrows, mustn't it? I just do not find it right for the victims of 9/11 to build an islamic centre with a mosque in the near of where their loved ones died. And some victims might still be able to overcome this sorrow and step beyond hatred or pain, because they feel it's wrong to withhold others their freedom to practise their religion freely and anywhere, that's fine and admirable. However, as long as there are victims of 9/11 who still feel the pain and fear that the centre will be considered a victory by those who took part in killing their loved ones,... these feelings should not be simply be dismissed by the rule "freedom of religion". I think their pain - let's call it the "freedom to feel sorrow and fear" weighs a bit more than the other freedom.

re: #171 Tweety

That's my fear. The intentions might be good (don't know), but I'm afraid it will be abused as a symbol of victory for islamic terrorists; rather than a peaceful dialogue centre where everyone is welcome.

And now something completely off-topic: in which language do muslims preach in the US? Personally I doubt that there is a ruling stating that sermons should be held in English, so I guess they can be held in any other language (which would be mainly Arabic). Is that correct?

174 SueG  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:41:16am

re: #169 Lidane

here, an old article:
[Link: www.jpress.org.il...]

175 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:00:38am

wow, long-winded fretful anti-Islamic dead-threaders ahoy

176 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 3:03:03am

re: #160 SueG

you do not even know me and call me an islamophobe. Nice.

If the shoe fits, lady!

I mean your own words are right here:

That's my fear. The intentions might be good (don't know), but I'm afraid it will be abused as a symbol of victory for islamic terrorists;

Your fear. Your small, prejudiced, fretful fear. Doesn't trump the constitution. Period, ever. Ever!

177 SueG  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 5:00:37am

re: #176 WindUpBird

Since when am I not free to fear? And fearing muslim terrorists can hardly be called hatred towards muslims, can it?

178 tweav  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 7:52:24am

As for Sharon Angle .. Harry the skim just had a two day stop over by the one.. Two events invitation only no coverage of the actual events by local or national media . Venue Aria in City Center which he got built when it was millions in debt with money from the banks he bailed out.. and ULV He is blanketing the Las Vegas airwaves with ads featuring out of context quotes ad nauseum. And you guys are buying it.. Money has always been his friend. And he spends other peoples well.
Suckers
Las Vegas has LOTS of beautiful public buildings too

179 JRCMYP  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 8:15:27am

re: #177 SueG

You're assuming the people building Park51 are terrorists...because they are Muslim.

180 tweav  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 10:44:43am

Not all Muslim are terrorists, not all terrorist are Muslims.
but that's the way to bet.

181 JRCMYP  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:01:27pm

re: #180 tweav

That's the way to bet? This is not a game, asshat.

182 SueG  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:03:43pm

re: #179 JRCMYP

No I am not.

183 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:12:20pm

re: #180 tweav

That's your last comment at LGF. Go away.

184 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 1:50:16pm

re: #164 captdiggs

Except for the periodic slaughter of Jews...such as in Cordoba and Granada.

"On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power."
[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

You really don't get what I'm trying to say, do you?

185 reidr  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 2:59:34pm

Monica Crowley also parroted the Cordoba line on a recent McLaughlin Group. Fortunately, for once they put another liberal on the show, Peter Beinart, and I think he slapped her down pretty well.

I need to stop watching that show all ready.

186 JRCMYP  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 5:10:06pm

re: #182 SueG

So, then, why do you oppose Park51? They aren't terrorists, are they? If they are, please, by all means, spell that out for us. If not, why do you oppose a religious and/or secular community center in NY?

187 JRCMYP  Sun, Aug 8, 2010 5:44:34pm

As a disclosure, as a grad student I studied medieval history under Ellen Friedman, Virginia Reinburg, Nancy Netzer and Robin Fleming at Boston College. Especially under Friedman, I studied Spain and Jewish medieval and early modern history. Under Netzer, I studied medieval manuscripts. Under Reinburg and Fleming, I studied religious history. Because Boston College is a Catholic University, we pay particular attention to Jewish history. It's important. Very important. But as historians we are bound to our primary sources and remembering to present the bare facts in conjunction with our modern interpretations. That's what historians do. You can't just make shit up.

I'm sad to say, Gingrich has decided to ignore the primary sources in favor of his need to present information to the modern world. That's called "ahistorical." Or, bluntly, untruthful. It's weird, as a historian, to contemplate someone doing this. Especially if they know better. WTF? is my reaction. I mean, if he really is a historian, the sources guide him. He comments on the information he gathers, not how he wants it to play out. Either that or he is just a political researcher not terribly different from the Nazi assholes who used "research" and "history" to advance their fucked up ideological shit.

Co-Opting Jewish, Muslim and Christian (Catholic) history for the sake of American political expediency is abhorrent to me. It's not only ahistorical (which Newt G. would understand) but seriously smacks of (and I'm dead serious here) of inserting one's moral or racist "feelings" in lieu of basic, secular, everyday movements in this world.

I'm saddened by this. I love NY. I was born there. Raised there as an infant and then later in Fairfield County. I've always felt that NYC is what it is. Take it on it's own terms. Of all cities to get freaking airplane bombed, they could move on. Understand. Analyze. Not fall prey to political maneuverings. And they are trying so hard to do so. The rest of America seems to not be able to catch up.

The people who bombed NYC were assholes and terrorists. They were not "Muslims" or "Arabs" or any other generically described group. They were just fucking idiots who deserved none of our time but some of our physical manpower. I don't know what to say about our continuing war overseas. Do I think it's going to help? No. Hurt? Yes. Is there a different answer...there must be. But squashing a community center in NYC???? Will that help? No. It will just help create "sides" and "factions" and *prove* who believes what. Which is sad.

Really sad.


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