Delaware GOP Candidate: ‘Separation of Church and State’ Came from Hitler

Wingnuts • Views: 15,269

The Delaware GOP’s candidate for the state’s open House seat, Glen Urquhart, says Thomas Jefferson never used the phrase “separation of church and state.” (He did.)

You know who said it? Hitler.

“Do you know, where does this phrase separation of Church and State come from? Does anybody know? … Actually, that’s exactly, it was not in Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists. He was reassuring that the federal government wouldn’t trample on their religion. The exact phrase ‘separation of Church and State’ came out of Adolph Hitler’s mouth, that’s where it comes from. Next time your liberal friends talk about the separation of Church and State ask them why they’re Nazis.”

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660 comments
1 Four More Tears  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:49:55pm

Christ, it’s like the Joker succeeded in one of his “poison the water supply” plots in Delaware or something…

2 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:50:06pm

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Next time your liberal friends talk about the separation of Church and State ask them why they’re Nazis.”


ahahahaha

who talks to their friends like that

3 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:50:24pm

re: #1 JasonA

Christ, it’s like the Joker succeeded in one of his “poison the water supply” plots in Delaware or something…

Whole state’s huffing Smilex gas

4 Four More Tears  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:52:09pm

re: #2 WindUpBird

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


ahahahaha

who talks to their friends like that

What does he advise us to do after we’re out of friends?

5 Nick Schroeder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:52:20pm

I’ll ask them that right after I ask old Glen here when he plans to stop beating his wife.

6 countrockulot  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:53:12pm

I would humbly suggest that if you regularly go around asking your friends of any political persuasion why they’re Nazis then you will very quickly not have any friends.

7 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:53:12pm

It’s sad how many people actually believe that.

8 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:54:03pm

Again:


Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

—Thomas Jefferson

9 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:54:30pm

Does the “G” in GOP now stand for “Godwin”?

10 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:56:11pm

Unless you’ve been using Stormfront sites to replace Craigslist adult section.

11 Ericus58  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:56:12pm

re: #8 Obdicut

Again:

—Thomas Jefferson

Thank you for posting this.
You Assclowns - read this and get a clue.

Between their abortion position, Creationism and THIS…..

Damn Morons running loose.

12 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:56:39pm

The Delaware GOP has gone full-retard, apparently. You never go full-retard, everybody knows that.

13 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:58:56pm

If we’re going to do the Lightning Round for every new absurdity from the TPGOP, I’m not going to make it to election day.

14 Quant  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:58:59pm

I think it’s pretty unlikely that Hitler said the exact phrase “separation of Church and State” just like that in English.

Hitler also said “the” (or rather die, der and das), which I guess means we’re all nazis in Glen’s book.

15 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:59:15pm
The exact phrase ‘separation of Church and State’ came out of Adolph Hitler’s mouth, that’s where it comes from. Next time your liberal friends talk about the separation of Church and State ask them why they’re Nazis.”

Fuck. What a moron. Nice mood this shit puts the country into.

Whig Party, anyone?

Moderation, let’s try it.

16 Mentis Fugit  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 1:59:18pm

re: #12 Fozzie Bear

The Delaware GOP has gone full-retard, apparently. You never go full-retard, everybody knows that.


Full Mental Jackass.
The lying is a conditioned reflex now.

17 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:00:30pm

re: #12 Fozzie Bear

The Delaware GOP has gone full-retard, apparently. You never go full-retard, everybody knows that.

Barf: They’ve gone to plaid!
Dark Helmet: We passed ‘em! Stop this thing!
Colonel Sandurz: We can’t stop, it’s too dangerous! We have to slow down first!
Dark Helmet: Bullshit! Stop this thing, I order you! Sto-o-o-o-p!

18 darthstar  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:01:10pm

What was it Keith Olbermann said last night? “These people have a 7th grade understanding of the constitution.” Then he apologized to his 7th grade teacher.

19 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:01:13pm

re: #15 Ojoe

Fuck. What a moron. Nice mood this shit puts the country into.

Whig Party, anyone?

Moderation, let’s try it.

Will the Whigs have a presence at/near the Restore Sanity affair? Seems to be the crowd you’re shooting for.

20 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:01:56pm

re: #8 Obdicut

Again:

—Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson’s Letter to the Danbury Baptists
The Final Letter, as Sent

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802

21 darthstar  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:02:48pm

re: #5 Nick Schroeder

I’ll ask them that right after I ask old Glen here when he plans to stop beating his wife.

You know who else stopped beating his wife? Hitler!
//

22 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:03:17pm

re: #8 Obdicut

…religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… T.J.


Everyone eventually creates their own customized religion as the go along in life.

Or else, you become a mindless automaton.

23 darthstar  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:03:33pm

He’s just trying to make Christine O’Donnell look sane by comparison.

24 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:03:47pm

The letter itself:

[Link: memory.loc.gov…]

25 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:03:50pm

He also wants to shut down Western Union:

Ending Illegal Immigration

We must stop the abuse of public education, welfare systems and our national integrity by securing our borders. Amnesty has not worked. We must stop the wholesale shipment of illegal immigrants’ earnings out of the country by Western Union et al and enforce existing laws that will remove the incentive to come illegally. At the same time, we must far more efficiently screen, qualify, and welcome those who prize liberty, learn and support our Constitutional values, want to work and contribute, learn English and apply legally. Qualified patriotic groups might help as sponsors.

Or does he mean that illegal aliens have to spend all their earnings here? He doesn’t flesh out his ideas very well.

26 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:04:14pm

re: #19 Decatur Deb

I will try to find that out.

27 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:04:48pm

re: #21 darthstar

You know who else stopped beating his wife? Hitler!
//

He really didn’t have time to START beating his wife….
Oh . you sarced that !
*

28 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:05:27pm

re: #9 oaktree

Does the “G” in GOP now stand for “Godwin”?

GOP might stand for God’s Own Party at this point.

29 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:05:58pm

re: #25 wrenchwench

He also wants to shut down Western Union:


Or does he mean that illegal aliens have to spend all their earnings here? He doesn’t flesh out his ideas very well.

They spend it here!!
Then smuggle the GUNS to Mexico!

30 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:06:32pm

re: #28 Ojoe

GOP might stand for God’s Own Party at this point.

There is no GOP. I just re-christened them the TPGOP. Keep up.

31 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:07:12pm

re: #30 Decatur Deb

Toilet Paper GOP?

32 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:07:27pm

re: #31 reloadingisnotahobby

Toilet Paper GOP?

oops…///

33 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:08:22pm

How about POSMA?

34 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:09:09pm

Asshole alert.

35 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:09:12pm

WTF.
These nutters have some weird ass fetish with Hitler…

36 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:09:25pm

re: #33 oaktree

How about POSMA?

Can I have one more clue please Alex??

37 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:09:42pm

I had no idea Thomas Jefferson was a Nazi.

//

38 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:09:54pm

Do you know, where does this phrase separation of Church and State come from? Does anybody know? … Actually, that’s exactly, it was not in Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists. He was reassuring that the federal government wouldn’t trample on their religion. The exact phrase ‘separation of Church and State’ came out of Adolph Hitler’s mouth, that’s where it comes from. Next time your liberal friends talk about the separation of Church and State ask them why they’re Nazis.

re: #20 Gus 802

Jefferson’s Letter to the Danbury Baptists
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

…

this phrase separation of Church and State … it was not in Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists

… wall of separation between Church & State

…

separation of Church and State

separation between Church & State

…

Wait… I get it! He doesn’t know what the word “between” means!

39 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:10:14pm

Anyone got a recipe for troll a’ la king?

40 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:10:15pm

Does this ignoramus think Roger Williams was a Nazi? Baptist writers and theologians were using the exact phrase “separation of church and state” for at least a century before the constitution was written. It was originally a bedrock principle of Baptist doctrine. The religious right Baptists we have come to know and loathe are essentially a recent, and radical, development.
If Urquhart is a Baptist, he should be excommunicated or expelled or whatever they do with heretics these days.

41 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:10:15pm

re: #36 reloadingisnotahobby

Can I have one more clue please Alex??

“S” = Sanity

42 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:12:08pm

re: #41 oaktree

“S” = Sanity

Impossibe!!
We were talking about the Tea Party!!
Nice try!
/

43 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:12:55pm

re: #6 countrockulot

I would humbly suggest that if you regularly go around asking your friends of any political persuasion why they’re Nazis then you will very quickly not have any friends.

Unless they are looking for Kyle.

44 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:13:27pm

Meanwhile over at Blackfive.

Also

Towercam is back up.

45 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:13:39pm

Woo Hooo!Just had a nice power bump!
Thunderstorm moving thru with just enough rain to ruin
a clean truck!
Shit!

46 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:13:48pm

re: #40 Shiplord Kirel

Does this ignoramus think Roger Williams was a Nazi? Baptist writers and theologians were using the exact phrase “separation of church and state” for at least a century before the constitution was written. It was originally a bedrock principle of Baptist doctrine. The religious right Baptists we have come to know and loathe are essentially a recent, and radical, development.
If Urquhart is a Baptist, he should be excommunicated or expelled or whatever they do with heretics these days.

She probably doesn’t know who Roger Williams is. And I am glad you point this out because in many southern colonies Baptists were persecuted by then majority Anglicans. You would think that modern day Baptists would know their history and realize that this is why we should cherish rather than fear the idea of separation of church and state.

47 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:13:55pm

re: #43 DaddyG

Unless they are looking for Kyle.

Image: seen_kyle.jpg

48 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:14:37pm

re: #34 Gus 802

Asshole alert.

Check the dates. This could be an interesting phenom.

49 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:16:53pm

re: #48 Decatur Deb

Check the dates. This could be an interesting phenom.

I didn’t notice anything other than it sure looks like an asshole of a flounce to me. ;)

50 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:17:15pm

I’m logging off….
Lighting VERY close!

51 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:17:19pm

I find it amazing that she considers separation of church and state to be a Nazi like idea. When I was in community college a few years back there was this guest professor from Baylor speaking about how at least in the West nations that don’t have an official state religion tend to not just have higher religious diversity but also higher church attendance than those who don’t. Was an interesting lecture.

52 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:17:39pm

re: #50 reloadingisnotahobby

I’m logging off…
Lighting VERY close!

Then move the lighting fixture.

/

53 marsl  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:18:24pm

Reagan is about to come out of his grave and kick all those Tea Parties in the butt.

Hell, with those Tea Paties, even him would be a RINO. Or a Democrat. Or worst, a leftie.

Suggestion: import all gaza cristhians to the US and export all this morons to Gaza. Would that be something? Tea Parties with M-16 vs Hamascrooks with AK-47’s.

Everybody would win. America, Israel, Palestine, peace, undertakers, conffinmakers…

54 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:18:36pm

re: #44 Ojoe

Meanwhile over at Blackfive.

Perhaps you missed the Outrageous Outrage of the Day.

55 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:18:45pm

re: #52 Gus 802

Then move the lighting fixture.

/

And for Zod’s sake, stop holding up that golf club!
/

56 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:18:48pm

re: #49 Gus 802

I didn’t notice anything other than it sure looks like an asshole of a flounce to me. ;)

Messers Jekyll and Hyde registered within minutes of each other.

57 122 Year Old Obama  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:21:00pm

I must’ve missed the part where Hitler used a time machine to go back to the 1700s and rewrite the Constitution. Silly me.

58 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:21:02pm

re: #54 wrenchwench

Perhaps you missed the Outrageous Outrage of the Day.

WTF happened to Blackfive!?
:/

59 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:22:20pm

re: #51 HappyWarrior

I find it amazing that she considers separation of church and state to be a Nazi like idea. When I was in community college a few years back there was this guest professor from Baylor speaking about how at least in the West nations that don’t have an official state religion tend to not just have higher religious diversity but also higher church attendance than those who don’t. Was an interesting lecture.

Not surprising, Baylor is a stronghold of Baptist tradition. Among Baptists, it is the proponents of separation who are the traditionalists, while the politically active religious right types are the radicals.

60 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:23:43pm

re: #59 Shiplord Kirel

Not surprising, Baylor is a stronghold of Baptist tradition. Among Baptists, it is the proponents of separation who are the traditionalists, while the politically active religious right types are the radicals.

My good friend, a graduate, calls it the “Baptist Vatican”.

61 Political Atheist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:24:07pm

re: #44 Ojoe

I wonder if they fixed the Olympus of replaced it…

62 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:24:24pm

re: #59 Shiplord Kirel

Not surprising, Baylor is a stronghold of Baptist tradition. Among Baptists, it is the proponents of separation who are the traditionalists, while the politically active religious right types are the radicals.

This is a hoot:

Baylor University || Church-State Studies || About the Institute

About the Institute

Baylor University established the J. M. Dawson Institute of Church-State Studies in 1957, so named in honor of an outstanding alumnus, distinguished author, and ardent advocate of religious liberty and the separation of church and state. The Institute is the oldest and most well established facility of its kind located in a university setting. It is exclusively devoted to research in the broad area of religion, politics, and society and committed to the separation of church and state and the advancement of religious liberty around the world.

63 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:24:28pm

Do these fools not realize that any State that can endorse a religion can also forbid it whenever it becomes politically convenient.

The framers of the Consitution didn’t put in the First Amendment to persecute religions.

*Ye olde visage palme*

64 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:25:00pm

re: #58 Varek Raith

WTF happened to Blackfive!?
:/

The usual, I’m afraid. Wheels off, in the ditch.

65 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:25:27pm

re: #59 Shiplord Kirel

Not surprising, Baylor is a stronghold of Baptist tradition. Among Baptists, it is the proponents of separation who are the traditionalists, while the politically active religious right types are the radicals.

Ah I didn’t know Baylor was a Baptist institution. This guy was an economics professor I believe. Seriously I don’t get why people oppose separation. It seems that in every country that some religious or demonation minority has been persecuted by the state at least one time. We were talking about anti-Catholicism in Bismarck’s Germany in German history Tuesday evening.

66 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:25:53pm

re: #61 Rightwingconspirator

Godzilla did the switch-out.

BBL

67 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:26:32pm

re: #62 Gus 802

This is a hoot:

Baylor University || Church-State Studies || About the Institute

I guess Urquhart thinks Baylor is a nest of escaped war criminals.

68 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:28:26pm

re: #67 Shiplord Kirel

I guess Urquhart thinks Baylor is a nest of escaped war criminals.

They have more:

Undergraduate Courses in Church-State

CHS 2304 - Foundations of Religious Liberty

Survey of church-state relations in western society from ancient times to the present vista. Special attention will be given to the historical antecedents and development of separation of church and state in America as well as recent constitutional debates concerning the religion clauses of the First Amendment.

69 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:30:20pm

re: #62 Gus 802

This is a hoot:

Baylor University || Church-State Studies || About the Institute

In the ancient times, esp. the run-up to the JFK campaign, “Separation” was a passionate Protestant GOP mantra. The Catholic school system was seen as a shovel-ready institution hungry to scoop up Federal dollars. The group “Americans United”, which now fights off the religious right, started as “Protestants and Others United for the Separation of Church and State”.

70 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:32:01pm

re: #69 Decatur Deb

In the ancient times, esp. the run-up to the JFK campaign, “Separation” was a passionate Protestant GOP mantra. The Catholic school system was seen as a shovel-ready institution hungry to scoop up Federal dollars. The group “Americans United”, which now fights off the religious right, started as “Protestants and Others United for the Separation of Church and State”.


Now they think melding Church and State sounds pretty good because it leaves no room for a mosque.

71 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:32:34pm

re: #69 Decatur Deb

In the ancient times, esp. the run-up to the JFK campaign, “Separation” was a passionate Protestant GOP mantra. The Catholic school system was seen as a shovel-ready institution hungry to scoop up Federal dollars. The group “Americans United”, which now fights off the religious right, started as “Protestants and Others United for the Separation of Church and State”.

Funny how times change. And of course the paranoia about JFK’s catholicism and before him Al Smith’s was craziness.

72 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:32:49pm

re: #70 wrenchwench

Now they think melding Church and State sounds pretty good because it leaves no room for a mosque.

[Link: aycu31.webshots.com…]

73 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:34:04pm

re: #70 wrenchwench

Now they think melding Church and State sounds pretty good because it leaves no room for a mosque.

Some of the old ones remember the threat from the Whore of Babylon shtick.

74 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:34:09pm

re: #72 Varek Raith

[Link: aycu31.webshots.com…]

Ayyy!

75 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:34:11pm

re: #70 wrenchwench

Now they think melding Church and State sounds pretty good because it leaves no room for a mosque.

Well, the tops of mosques look like boobs, and thus they might tempt people to masturbate. It all makes perfect sense.

76 Political Atheist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:35:32pm

I have the perfect theme song for the GOP campaign.

Worst Day Since Yesterday

77 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:35:36pm

re: #75 Fozzie Bear

Well, the tops of mosques look like boobs, and thus they might tempt people to masturbate. It all makes perfect sense.


Don’t get me started on the minarets. /

Incidently there is a lovely Mosque near Atlantic Station and Turner Broadcasting in downtown Atlanta. It really classes up the neighborhood.

78 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:35:41pm

re: #71 HappyWarrior

Funny how times change. And of course the paranoia about JFK’s catholicism and before him Al Smith’s was craziness.

It turned out that way, but it honestly wasn’t that obvious at the time. Ecumenism had no real foothold.

79 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:37:01pm

re: #75 Fozzie Bear

Well, the tops of mosques look like boobs, and thus they might tempt people to masturbate. It all makes perfect sense.

Heh, reminds me of when our insane AG Cuccinelli wanted to change Virginia’s state seal.
[Link: www.sbe.virginia.gov…]

80 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:38:20pm

i support the separation of church and snakes

81 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:38:31pm

re: #79 Varek Raith

Heh, reminds me of when our insane AG Cuccinelli wanted to change Virginia’s state seal.
[Link: www.sbe.virginia.gov…]

We’re so very proud of our birther catering to, gay fearing, climate change scientist investigating, and boob covering AG. Sigh and apparently he was nearly beat in the State Senate a few years back too and won by less than 100 votes.

82 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:39:02pm

This country is fucked.

83 DaddyG  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:39:31pm

re: #71 HappyWarrior

Funny how times change. And of course the paranoia about JFK’s catholicism and before him Al Smith’s was craziness.

…and then they don’t change. Mitt Romney found out right quick that the values vote in the Southeast doesn’t count when you are a Mormon.

“I mean they are good people to have as neighbors, especially after a natural disaster, but can you see the President taking his orders from Salt Lake City!! You know they worship a false Christ don’t you?”

Thanks Huckabee, not.

84 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:39:33pm

re: #82 Cato the Elder

This country is fucked.

I do enjoy your optimistic outlook.

85 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:39:34pm

Next time your liberal friends talk about the separation of Church and State ask them why they’re Nazis

don’t talk to me like that, buster, or i’ll have to ask you why you are such a fucking gullible moron

86 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:40:20pm

After The Sarah yesterday kept retweeting:

E2Wire Murkowski to lose top GOP spot on Senate Energy Committee [Link: bit.ly…]
11:53 AM Sep 21st via twitterfeed
Retweeted by SarahPalinUSA and 39 others

guess what the Senate GOP did today?

Senate GOP Votes To Allow Murkowski To Keep Committee Post

Heh, perhaps the old stalwarts in the Senate know something that Palin doesn’t?

87 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:40:39pm

22 Sept 2010

Dear Glen Urquhart:

You are an idiot.

Sincerely,

Gus 802

88 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:40:50pm

re: #69 Decatur Deb

In the ancient times, esp. the run-up to the JFK campaign, “Separation” was a passionate Protestant GOP mantra. The Catholic school system was seen as a shovel-ready institution hungry to scoop up Federal dollars. The group “Americans United”, which now fights off the religious right, started as “Protestants and Others United for the Separation of Church and State”.

The Churches of Christ are also big on church/state separation, to the extent that they don’t even have an official position on whether churches should be taxed. As one CofC pastor told me, “If they tax us, we’ll pay. If they don’t, we rejoice!”
They have also done some very good work in debunking tent-show super-naturalism in recent years.

89 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:41:25pm

re: #83 DaddyG

…and then they don’t change. Mitt Romney found out right quick that the values vote in the Southeast doesn’t count when you are a Mormon.

“I mean they are good people to have as neighbors, especially after a natural disaster, but can you see the President taking his orders from Salt Lake City!! You know they worship a false Christ don’t you?”

Thanks Huckabee, not.

Yep, seriously I had no liking for Romney politically but the anti-Mormonism Huckabee engaged in was sleazy. Believe one of his surrogates or Huckabee himself engaged in some Catholic baiting with Sam Brownback. Not a fan of either Brownback or Romney but Huckabee’s sleazy as hell for doing doing that.

90 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:41:32pm

re: #83 DaddyG

…and then they don’t change. Mitt Romney found out right quick that the values vote in the Southeast doesn’t count when you are a Mormon.

“I mean they are good people to have as neighbors, especially after a natural disaster, but can you see the President taking his orders from Salt Lake City!! You know they worship a false Christ don’t you?”

Thanks Huckabee, not.

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!

91 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:41:59pm

re: #77 DaddyG

Don’t get me started on the minarets. /

Incidently there is a lovely Mosque near Atlantic Station and Turner Broadcasting in downtown Atlanta. It really classes up the neighborhood.

What?! A mosque there? It has an intersection that remotely resembles other intersections (roads crossing each other). Just like Ground Zero!

How dare they build one there! I had no idea. I hadn’t been frightened until now.

/

92 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:42:18pm

re: #69 Decatur Deb

Correct that to “Protestants and Other Americans United for the Separation of Church and State”. (It might be significant that it takes a very full set of terms to Google that.)

[Link: www.google.com…]

93 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:42:46pm

re: #81 HappyWarrior

We’re so very proud of our birther catering to, gay fearing, climate change scientist investigating, and boob covering AG….


Speaking of AGW, today there was a press release and Nature article that is being horribly mis-represented online, even by some supposedly pro-environmental blogs. Unfortunately, scientists often don’t make for good writers, and almost all of them make for piss poor politicians.

94 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:43:53pm

re: #82 Cato the Elder

This country is fucked.

Yes, but it’s a very fertile country and something amazing might be born of it.

95 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:44:15pm

Huckabee scares the ever lovin’ crap out of me.

He is a true socon. As a “Christian” I do not want someone like him leading this nation. Again, small government conservative to me means not only fiscal sanity, but also personal liberty.

Huckabee and his ilk are neither. What he would do with a willing Congress is chilling to me.

96 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:45:13pm

re: #95 brownbagj

Huckabee scares the ever lovin’ crap out of me.

He is a true socon. As a “Christian” I do not want someone like him leading this nation. Again, small government conservative to me means not only fiscal sanity, but also personal liberty.

Huckabee and his ilk are neither. What he would do with a willing Congress is chilling to me.

Huckabee is a full blown theocrat.

97 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:45:32pm

DE-AL – PPP (D) polled the Delaware At-Large House race, and found Lieutenant Governor Carney leading millionaire Glen Urquhart 48 percent to 37 percent. This is one of the Democrats’ few good pickup opportunities this cycle, but we have to note that Carney is a statewide officeholder below 50 percent. Still, he is well-positioned to win this seat.

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com…]

98 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:46:08pm

I’m enjoying every minute of this.

99 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:46:23pm

re: #96 Varek Raith

Huckabee is a full blown theocrat.

Whereas Urquhart is about half blown.

100 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:46:31pm

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

I’m enjoying every minute of this.

Well…
YOU CAN’T!
;)

101 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:46:40pm

i also support the separation of government and morons

102 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:47:31pm

re: #98 Walter L. Newton

I’m enjoying every minute of this.

Zeus-like, above the clouds, looking down on the follies of men.

103 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:47:35pm

Delaware At-Large - Carney vs. Urquhart

104 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:48:12pm

Stephen Colbert will be testifying in front of Congress on the issue of immigration, and he will be doing so in character.

This has the potential to be ridiculously epic.

105 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:48:31pm

Why is every other GOP candidate a “millionaire”?

Freedom isn’t free.

106 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:48:52pm

Delaware Senate - O’Donnell vs. Coons

Coons at +15.7 (RCP Average)

107 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:49:25pm

re: #104 Fozzie Bear

Stephen Colbert will be testifying in front of Congress on the issue of immigration, and he will be doing so in character.

This has the potential to be ridiculously epic.

O_o
NO WAI!!!

108 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:49:44pm

re: #101 engineer dog

Get used to disappointment.

109 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:50:57pm

re: #105 Cato the Elder

Why is every other GOP candidate a “millionaire”?

Obviously because God has blessed them.

Don’t you want the blessed of God in office?

110 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:51:00pm

re: #95 brownbagj

Huckabee scares the ever lovin’ crap out of me.

He is a true socon. As a “Christian” I do not want someone like him leading this nation. Again, small government conservative to me means not only fiscal sanity, but also personal liberty.

Huckabee and his ilk are neither. What he would do with a willing Congress is chilling to me.

Like Jerry Falwell and many other religious right figures, Huckabee is a Baptist minister who lost his anchor. This radical departure from Baptist tradition is almost invariably associated with media-based evangelism. Huckabee, for example, was just 21 when he went to work for televangelist James Robison.

111 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:51:00pm

re: #102 Decatur Deb

Zeus-like, above the clouds, looking down on the follies of men.

I’m also waiting for Lady Ga Ga to weigh in on this. She is now my official “go to” person on insightful and highly intelligent commentary from the left. Colbert is funny, but he’s a comic, I expect funny from a comic. . Ga Ga is a singer, and she is serious, never thought I would get that from a singer.

112 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:51:32pm

re: #104 Fozzie Bear

Stephen Colbert will be testifying in front of Congress on the issue of immigration, and he will be doing so in character.

This has the potential to be ridiculously epic.

Is there a Weiner in the house?

113 darthstar  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:51:33pm

re: #106 Gus 802

Delaware Senate - O’Donnell vs. Coons

Coons at +15.7 (RCP Average)

What a difference winning the primary makes…


After O’Donnell became official candidate:
Rasmussen Reports 9/15 - 9/15 500 LV 53 42 Coons +11

Before O’Donnell became official candidate:
Rasmussen Reports 7/14 - 7/14 500 LV 39 41 O’Donnell +2

114 Amory Blaine  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:52:20pm

This is what you get when you get your history lessons from Hogans Heroes.

115 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:55:15pm

re: #114 Amory Blaine

This is what you get when you get your history lessons from Hogans Heroes.

F-Troop is also pretty good for history.

For science nothing beat I Dream of Jeannie.

//

116 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:55:45pm

Glen is an ass clown.

117 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:55:55pm

re: #115 Gus 802


For science nothing beat I Dream of Jeannie.

//

Bewitched!

118 simoom  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:56:23pm

Paladino, on why his racial / pornographic / bestiality e-mails haven’t sunk his campaign (he’s now within 5-6 points of Cuomo):

[Link: www.observer.com…]

“You guys live in a different world than those people out there,” he said, motioning to the glass windows. “That stuff goes all over. That internet is wild with this stuff. Everybody. And they sit there and they say, ‘Oh my god, I didn’t know it was so bad to send those things around.’”

As Paladino laughed, his campaign manager, Michael Caputo, chimed in.

“The first thing we did was put a Democrat political operative, investigator on Carl. Everything he found, we polled, did focus groups,” said Caputo, who specializes in crisis public relations.

“We found that 70 percent of Republican men said that they had received or forwarded the same. And that 55 percent of the general electorate males had done the same thing.

“We also found that the wives of those men thought it was stupid, but they didn’t think it was a disqualifier, as a person. So when it was released that these things happened, one of the first things we did was put Cathy out there to say, you know, what she felt about it. And what she felt was, ‘How stupid are you, Carl?’”

Caputo was referencing a Buffalo News story that featured Paladino’s wife, Cathy, rebutting the charges of racism—an interview suggested and arranged by the campaign shortly after their disclosure. The campaign also put out a video by Paladino’s daughter defending him against the charge, and another one last week, featuring former Buffalo Bills running back Thurman Thomas.

119 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:57:06pm

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

I’m also waiting for Lady Ga Ga to weigh in on this. She is now my official “go to” person on insightful and highly intelligent commentary from the left. Colbert is funny, but he’s a comic, I expect funny from a comic. . Ga Ga is a singer, and she is serious, never thought I would get that from a singer.

You’ve got me thinking back for singers who actually had political influence. I’ve got the Folkies of the 60s, then back to WWII and people like Kate Smith.

120 CarleeCork  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:57:38pm

Where DO they find the stupid?

121 Four More Tears  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:57:50pm

re: #118 simoom

“So as you can see, I’m no more of a dick than most of the rest of you!”

122 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:58:04pm

re: #120 CarleeCork

Where DO they find the stupid?

Focus groups.

123 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 2:59:39pm

Got it… this just in, an excerpt from Lady Ga Ga’s “The Cold Cuts of America” speech on the separation between church and state…

“It’s really easy… it’s just like the salami and the bologna on a plate of cold cuts… they are separated… obviously, if you order certain value meals, like in France… they come all mixed together… but, the cold cuts of America are separated… understand that or go home. Go home. Thank you.”

124 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:00:21pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

Why do you hate mixed grill?

125 deranged cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:01:07pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

i’m gonna go make myself a vietnamese sandwich now. yummm

126 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:01:59pm

Burp

Youtube Video
127 mikhailtheplumber  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:02:43pm

Hitler also liked dogs, you know?

128 simoom  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:03:10pm

re: #121 JasonA

“So as you can see, I’m no more of a dick than most of the rest of you!”

It also demonstrates that he isn’t even remotely apologetic about it, even though he’s feigned some level of contrition in a couple interviews:

“And they sit there and they say, ‘Oh my god, I didn’t know it was so bad to send those things around.’” As Paladino laughed …
129 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:03:31pm

re: #127 mikhailtheplumber

Hitler also liked dogs, you know?

Damn. That poor dog looks like he was starving.

130 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:03:53pm

re: #126 Gus 802

Gold.

131 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:05:08pm

re: #127 mikhailtheplumber

Hitler also liked dogs, you know?

logical consistancy is liberal fascism

///

132 mikhailtheplumber  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:05:20pm

re: #2 WindUpBird

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


ahahahaha

who talks to their friends like that

Actually, I ask my friends why they are Nazis all the time. Maybe I should stop making friends with tattooed swastikas in their arms…

133 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:08:00pm

re: #132 mikhailtheplumber

Actually, I ask my friends why they are Nazis all the time. Maybe I should stop making friends with tattooed swastikas in their arms…

You make friends with “tattooed swastikas in their arms?” How does that work?

134 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:08:16pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

That sounds really stupid.

135 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:08:46pm

re: #118 simoom

Paladino, on why his racial / pornographic / bestiality e-mails haven’t sunk his campaign (he’s now within 5-6 points of Cuomo):

[Link: www.observer.com…]

Both recent polls who placed him that close were 2-way choices. Lazio is running as a shadow Republican, and was not in the test. Nate Silver discusses it on 538.

[Link: www.fivethirtyeight.com…]

136 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:10:21pm

re: #134 Cato the Elder

That sounds really stupid.

No less stupid than this…

“Equality is the prime rib of America. Equality is the prime rib of what we stand for as a nation. And I don’t get to enjoy the greatest cut of meat that my country has to offer. Are you listening? Shouldn’t everyone deserve the right to wear the same meat dress that I did? Repeal “don’t ask, don’t tell” or go home. Go home. Thank you.”

The repeal DADT, I agree with, the rest, stupid.

[Link: www.mtv.com…]

137 mikhailtheplumber  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:10:28pm

re: #133 Walter L. Newton

You make friends with “tattooed swastikas in their arms?” How does that work?

It doesn’t. I was mistranslating my thoughts from Spanish.

138 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:10:56pm

Image: 12152009_muppets7.jpg

139 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:13:42pm

re: #138 Gus 802

Image: 12152009_muppets7.jpg

Where did you get a picture of us? Wasn’t that the meeting room of the Denver John Birch Society? That was suppose to be a secret.

140 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:14:23pm

Damn spinning wheel here.

141 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:15:02pm

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

Where did you get a picture of us? Wasn’t that the meeting room of the Denver John Birch Society? That was suppose to be a secret.

I used a webcam. I’m a beardo now though.

//

142 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:15:42pm

re: #140 Gus 802

Damn spinning wheel here.

“What goes up, must come down… spinning wheel, got to go round…”

143 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:16:34pm

To work… talk amongst yourself… won’t be back until midnight, if I’m awake.

144 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:18:16pm

re: #142 Walter L. Newton

“What goes up, must come down… spinning wheel, got to go round…”

I always think that’s by Chicago instead of the correct band, Blood, Sweat and Tears.

145 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:20:15pm

Something tells me that in some future election when the pendulum swings back I am going to be taken to task by liberals for not supporting Lady Googoo’s run for office.

What a clown circus.

146 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:21:04pm

re: #19 Decatur Deb

Will the Whigs have a presence at/near the Restore Sanity affair? Seems to be the crowd you’re shooting for.

I just posted about the restore sanity rally on the Ca. Whig facebook page, and on the National page. I’l let you know the response.

147 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:23:32pm

re: #146 Ojoe

How many Whigs are there besides you and that crazy guy who lives down the block?

148 garhighway  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:24:16pm

re: #135 Decatur Deb

Both recent polls who placed him that close were 2-way choices. Lazio is running as a shadow Republican, and was not in the test. Nate Silver discusses it on 538.

[Link: www.fivethirtyeight.com…]

And wait until Cuomo gets after him with some ads. Watch those negatives climb.

I have a hard time believing that the guy has the sand for a really nasty statewide race.

149 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:25:49pm

The “GOP Pledge to America” is lame.

It’s a draft though. Maybe they can fix it.

150 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:26:07pm

re: #145 Cato the Elder

She’s a performance artist. Think not Gaga, but Dada. She’s a surrealist.

You can’t tell anything about her from her public persona.

151 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:27:53pm

re: #149 wrenchwench

The “GOP Pledge to America” is lame.

It’s a draft though. Maybe they can fix it.

“We pledge to honor families, traditional marriage, life, and the private and faith-based organizations that form the core of our American values.”

Zzzzzzzz.

152 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:28:09pm

re: #150 Obdicut

She’s a performance artist. Think not Gaga, but Dada. She’s a surrealist.

You can’t tell anything about her from her public persona.

I can tell she would make a lousy dog-sitter.

153 darthstar  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:28:56pm

Hey, I just discovered that, if you hold a couple of pieces of paper in your hand and walk with a sense of purpose, people tend to stop you less frequently to ask you stupid questions.

154 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:29:27pm

re: #149 wrenchwench

tl;dr

155 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:31:31pm

re: #154 Cato the Elder

tl;dr

We pledge to advance policies that promote greater liberty, wider opportunity, a robust defense, and national economic prosperity.

156 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:32:02pm

re: #149 wrenchwench

The “GOP Pledge to America” is lame.

It’s a draft though. Maybe they can fix it.

Needs more human sacrifice.

157 Bowen  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:32:14pm

Hey I finally made it!

158 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:33:39pm

“We pledge to honor families, traditional marriage, life, and the private and faith-based organizations that form the core of our American values.”

the real agenda behind this pablum is “we promise to tell you that democrats hate families, hate marriage, are lusting to kill babies in the womb, are a bunch of immoral atheists, and are communist fascists who will take all your money away and send your family to labor camps, and that you teabaggers are the only worthwhile people in america and only your opinions count”

it would be amusing except we know all too well that the above is what millions of teabaggers actually believe

159 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:33:53pm

Welcome. Bride’s family or groom’s?

160 mikhailtheplumber  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:35:13pm

re: #152 Decatur Deb

I can tell she would make a lousy dog-sitter.

But an ideal dog-snack.

161 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:35:56pm

We pledge to advance policies that promote greater liberty, wider opportunity, a robust defense, and national economic prosperity.

“we promise to promote greater and greater liberty for corporations at your expense, eliminate taxes for corporations and wealthy people, and make all jobless people join the army”

162 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:41:09pm
Youtube Video

Fuck hope.

163 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:41:52pm

re: #149 wrenchwench

The “GOP Pledge to America” is lame.

It’s a draft though. Maybe they can fix it.

Ugh. I can’t bring myself to read it.

164 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:42:05pm

re: #150 Obdicut

She’s a performance artist. Think not Gaga, but Dada. She’s a surrealist.

You can’t tell anything about her from her public persona.

She’s basically Cindy Sherman, but with actual talent.

165 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:42:34pm

re: #163 Killgore Trout

Ugh. I can’t bring myself to read it.

Whenever the agenda of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to institute a new governing agenda and set a different course.

166 Bowen  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:44:18pm

re: #156 Decatur Deb

Needs more human sacrifice.

Is that similar to the Contract With America?

167 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:44:23pm

re: #163 Killgore Trout

Ugh. I can’t bring myself to read it.

Tenthers:

We pledge to honor the Constitution as constructed by its framers and honor the original intent of those precepts that have been consistently ignored – particularly the Tenth Amendment, which grants that all powers
not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

168 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:46:24pm

Sock alert.

169 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:46:58pm

re: #166 Bowen

Is that similar to the Contract With America?

TP version. There’s no way that fits on less than 300 T-shirts.

170 garhighway  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:48:24pm

re: #168 Charles

Sock alert.

Anybody we know?

171 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:49:39pm

re: #169 Decatur Deb

TP version. There’s no way that fits on less than 300 T-shirts.

That was the sock.

172 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:50:43pm

re: #171 Gus 802

That was the sock.

I take straight lines where I can get them.

173 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:51:56pm

“GOP Pledge to America”

resembles lemon pledge

puts an attractive shiny finish on all your ignorance and prejudice, and makes it smell lemony fresh

174 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:52:20pm

I don’t trust socks, I prefer stockings


never trust a sock

175 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:52:54pm

re: #165 Gus 802

Whenever the agenda of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to institute a new governing agenda and set a different course.

Wonder if they’ll have the same tune if a bunch of lefties got upset at what they were doing once in power. Somehow I doubt it.

176 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:53:15pm

re: #174 WindUpBird

I don’t trust socks, I prefer stockings

never trust a sock

Shh our (my) cover is blown!!!

177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:54:27pm

re: #150 Obdicut

She’s a performance artist. Think not Gaga, but Dada. She’s a surrealist.

You can’t tell anything about her from her public persona.

And a pretty good songwriter, made her bones penning hits for other artists

178 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:54:43pm

re: #176 windsagio

Shh our (my) cover is blown!!!

What you? No! me?

OH GOD WHAT’S HAPPENING

179 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:54:48pm

re: #175 HappyWarrior

Wonder if they’ll have the same tune if a bunch of lefties got upset at what they were doing once in power. Somehow I doubt it.

We’ve seen the role reversal take place many times. They make it sound like we no longer live in a democracy and that an election won’t take place in November. So they say, ” it is the right of the people to institute a new governing agenda and set a different course.” To which I would respond, “no shit.”

180 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:55:54pm

re: #177 WindUpBird

But she dresses crazy!

Obviously worthless. PS: Damn kids and their disregard for the rules of proper attire~!

181 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:56:35pm

re: #179 Gus 802

I do wonder, if the Democrats lose the House and/or Senate, whether they’re going to give right back with the obstructionism.

182 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:57:06pm

re: #179 Gus 802

We’ve seen the role reversal take place many times. They make it sound like we no longer live in a democracy and that an election won’t take place in November. So they say, ” it is the right of the people to institute a new governing agenda and set a different course.” To which I would respond, “no shit.”

Close as they dared whistle to the “2nd Amendment Solution Blues”.

183 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:57:09pm

It’s just too funny though. They make it sound like Republicanism is a new concept. As though they’ve never held the seat of power and clear majorities. As if though they are not responsible for the government we live with today and one that they complain about as though they’re outsiders.

184 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:57:26pm

re: #179 Gus 802

We’ve seen the role reversal take place many times. They make it sound like we no longer live in a democracy and that an election won’t take place in November. So they say, ” it is the right of the people to institute a new governing agenda and set a different course.” To which I would respond, “no shit.”

Pretty much. Seriously I always get amused when people on both sides compare the government in charge to the Nazis yet say we need to vote them out. Heh as if the people in the Third Reich had an opition of voting out Hitler and the gang.

185 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:57:49pm

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

186 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 3:58:17pm

re: #181 Obdicut

I do wonder, if the Democrats lose the House and/or Senate, whether they’re going to give right back with the obstructionism.

That’s a question to be mixed about. On one hand, really really hate the obstruction, but on the other, we’re all fucked if we let the GOP have their way :p

187 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:00:04pm

re: #183 Gus 802

It’s just too funny though. They make it sound like Republicanism is a new concept. As though they’ve never held the seat of power and clear majorities. As if though they are not responsible for the government we live with today and one that they complain about as though they’re outsiders.

They say the government is governing without our consent. Wasn’t it less than two years ago the president was elected? Are they saying the Electoral College was wrong?

188 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:01:01pm

re: #186 windsagio

That’s a question to be mixed about. On one hand, really really hate the obstruction, but on the other, we’re all fucked if we let the GOP have their way :p

I don’t think so. I hope the Democrats don’t use the same obstructionist tactics— especially since Obama is still president.

I think that the GOP, if forced to actually attempt to govern, will turn into even more of a circular firing squad, with the actually sane members trying to pass reasonable legislation and the crazybugnuts league, grown in strength, attempting to pass god-knows-what.

189 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:01:31pm

re: #181 Obdicut

I do wonder, if the Democrats lose the House and/or Senate, whether they’re going to give right back with the obstructionism.

Absolutely. In fact they won’t get any clear majority. That is they won’t lose so to speak but have larger representation. I would think we’ll be seeing even greater obstructionism if they don’t find a way to work with the White House.

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:01:34pm

Last time I heard this crap, it was from the Communist Manifesto. Can’t they make their lying minds up?

Nothing but contempt. How foul.

191 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:01:57pm

re: #188 Obdicut

I don’t think so. I hope the Democrats don’t use the same obstructionist tactics— especially since Obama is still president.

I think that the GOP, if forced to actually attempt to govern, will turn into even more of a circular firing squad, with the actually sane members trying to pass reasonable legislation and the crazybugnuts league, grown in strength, attempting to pass god-knows-what.

That’s a very good point, and you’re right that the bully pulpit is a powerful tool. I have a lot more faith in O than in congress to actually stop the truly evil stuff from getting in.

192 HappyWarrior  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:01:59pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

They say the government is governing without our consent. Wasn’t it less than two years ago the president was elected? Are they saying the Electoral College was wrong?

It was ACORN’s doing obviously. Duh.

193 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:02:41pm

re: #8 Obdicut

Again:

—Thomas Jefferson

The phrase was then quoted by well-known fascist Hugo Black, in a 1946 court ruling.

194 garhighway  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:03:35pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

They say the government is governing without our consent. Wasn’t it less than two years ago the president was elected? Are they saying the Electoral College was wrong?

Actually, there was no prior election. The Earth is only a year old. The rest is an artificial reality God created last year.

Hey, what the hell: if you are going to go “young Earth”, why not go whole hog?

195 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:04:42pm

re: #187 wrenchwench

They say the government is governing without our consent. Wasn’t it less than two years ago the president was elected? Are they saying the Electoral College was wrong?

There’s a lot of that type of rhetoric in their preamble. They’re making it sound like the reps in Congress either appeared out of the blue or were elected under false pretenses. They sound bitter that they lost both in 2006 and 2008 and at the same time pretend that they were never in power and held the power of the executive for 8 years. Going back in history we’ll find that they also held the power for another 12 years for a total of 20 years of executive control since 1980.

196 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:04:44pm

re: #194 garhighway

Actually, there was no prior election. The Earth is only a year old. The rest is an artificial reality God created last year.

Hey, what the hell: if you are going to go “young Earth”, why not go whole hog?

Not good enough, should be ‘the Earth was created 1.46 seconds ago in order to put me here in the position of being right’.

197 mikhailtheplumber  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:04:52pm

re: #191 windsagio

I think Obama will try to compromise. He still needs to pass things through Congress, so he going even more to the center trying to get at least some legislation going.

Not that the Republicans will be any more approachable after November than they are now, though.

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:05:25pm

re: #80 engineer dog

i support the separation of church and snakes

That’s not fair to snake handlers.

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:07:19pm

re: #83 DaddyG

…and then they don’t change. Mitt Romney found out right quick that the values vote in the Southeast doesn’t count when you are a Mormon.

“I mean they are good people to have as neighbors, especially after a natural disaster, but can you see the President taking his orders from Salt Lake City!! You know they worship a false Christ don’t you?”

Thanks Huckabee, not.

“I heard they think the devil is Jesus’s brother.”

I actually taught a lesson about political propaganda based on that little comment.

200 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:07:39pm

Presidents since 1980 in years:

Republican Party: 20 years.
Democratic Party: 9.7 years.

Where’s the beef?

201 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:08:41pm

re: #174 WindUpBird

I don’t trust socks, I prefer stockings

never trust a sock

Factiod: Socks have one natural enemy, the Squirrels.

Youtube Video

“I think they’re gearin’ up for the big one.”

202 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:08:47pm

re: #95 brownbagj

Huckabee scares the ever lovin’ crap out of me.

He is a true socon. As a “Christian” I do not want someone like him leading this nation. Again, small government conservative to me means not only fiscal sanity, but also personal liberty.

Huckabee and his ilk are neither. What he would do with a willing Congress is chilling to me.

Huckabee said in public that since God’s law can’t be rewritten, the Constitution needs to be rewritten to be in accordance with God’s law.

That was the point at which I realized that, nice man though he seemed to be, he was a BIG problem for America.

203 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:10:20pm

re: #193 SanFranciscoZionist

The phrase was then quoted by well-known fascist Hugo Black, in a 1946 court ruling.

I call bull. “Hugo Black” is obviously a stage name for a fascist.

204 garhighway  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:12:23pm

re: #196 windsagio

Not good enough, should be ‘the Earth was created 1.46 seconds ago in order to put me here in the position of being right’.

Well played, sir.

205 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:14:03pm

re: #196 windsagio

Not good enough, should be ‘the Earth was created 1.46 seconds ago in order to put me here in the position of being right’.

No.
We are all just God’s imagination.
He still hasn’t done anything.

206 Four More Tears  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:17:04pm

re: #205 Varek Raith

No.
We are all just God’s imagination.
He still hasn’t done anything.

God imagined me touching myself this morning? (And now so did you! :P )

207 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:19:21pm

re: #206 JasonA

God imagined me touching myself this morning? (And now so did you! :P )

Isn’t that some kind of paradox???

208 Four More Tears  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:19:48pm

re: #207 Varek Raith

Isn’t that some kind of paradox???

I broke creation.

209 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:20:10pm

re: #205 Varek Raith

No.
We are all just God’s imagination.
He still hasn’t done anything.

Do you feel like part of a Civ IV expansion pack?

210 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:20:28pm

re: #208 JasonA

I broke creation.

Question!

What mods would you recommend for Fallout 3?

211 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:23:11pm

Whatever you do. If you expect to remain an obedient American don’t read this:

The super-rich got even wealthier this year, despite the stumbling economy.

Yeah. What capital?

212 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:23:53pm
Next time your liberal friends talk about the separation of Church and State ask them why they’re Nazis.

Like these guys have liberal friends. They really mean, the next time one of your Conservative but not totally insane friends expresses some discomfort with our political rantings, shut them up by calling them Nazis. First objective is always to control your own people.

213 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:24:24pm

Trickle Down Economics - Date of Death: 9/22/2010

214 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:24:31pm

re: #211 Gus 802

They need that money to properly trickle down into the Ming Vase industry.

215 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:24:53pm

re: #213 Gus 802

Trickle Down Economics - Date of Death: 9/22/2010

It was always a scam anyways :P

216 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:24:57pm

re: #211 Gus 802

Whatever you do. If you expect to remain an obedient American don’t read this:

The super-rich got even wealthier this year, despite the stumbling economy.

Yeah. What capital?

Karma!

By contrast, 34 people fell off the list this year. One notable drop-off is Raj Rajaratnam, founder of the Galleon Group hedge fund, who is facing 185 years in prison,
217 Four More Tears  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:25:30pm

re: #210 Varek Raith

Question!

What mods would you recommend for Fallout 3?

Fook 2

Fellout

Weapon Mod Kits

Those are just for starters.

218 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:26:44pm

It’s still almost 90 degrees at 6:30, but the dog has all 4 legs crossed. BBL

219 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:26:50pm

Good evening Lizards!

220 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:26:54pm

re: #215 windsagio

It was always a scam anyways :P

Forbes magazine released its annual list of the 400 richest Americans on Wednesday, and their combined net worth climbed 8% this year, to $1.37 trillion.

8 percent gain.

221 garhighway  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:27:25pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Forbes magazine released its annual list of the 400 richest Americans on Wednesday, and their combined net worth climbed 8% this year, to $1.37 trillion.

8 percent gain.

But if their taxes go back to the Clinton rates, the economy will collapse.

222 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:27:52pm

re: #217 JasonA

Fook 2

Fellout

Weapon Mod Kits

Those are just for starters.

I actually bothered to do the MQ and finished it faster than I did the Oblivion MQ.
Lol.

223 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:27:54pm

re: #221 garhighway

But if their taxes go back to the Clinton rates, the economy will collapse.

For sure. And all the jobs they are creating? Gone.

//

224 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:28:35pm

re: #220 Gus 802

To rant a little bit it makes me crazy because the whole scam is based on the ‘that could be me despite every evidence to the opposite!’ idea people have.

In my darker moods, I suspect they knew all along it wouldn’t actually work.

225 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:29:23pm

re: #220 Gus 802

Forbes magazine released its annual list of the 400 richest Americans on Wednesday, and their combined net worth climbed 8% this year, to $1.37 trillion.

8 percent gain.

I make, let’s see, less than half of what I did last year.
Wheee!

226 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:30:22pm

re: #220 Gus 802
There is a point after which you almost cannot lose money fast enough to go broke. Your money goes on making money independent of your input. At this point, you should be declared a government and be required to start your own military, welfare programs, health care, and infrastructure support.
(Hey, it could work.//)

227 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:31:24pm

re: #226 Escaped Hillbilly

There is a point after which you almost cannot lose money fast enough to go broke. Your money goes on making money independent of your input. At this point, you should be declared a government and be required to start your own military, welfare programs, health care, and infrastructure support.
(Hey, it could work.//)

I get to form a malevolent Imperium?
Sweet.

228 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:32:16pm

Music somewhat related:

Youtube Video
229 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:32:36pm

re: #225 Varek Raith

I make, let’s see, less than half of what I did last year.
Wheee!

Looking at some numbers. The douche that owns Facebook is worth 4 billion now. Facebook had a revenue of 800 million in 2009 and they employ 1400 people. That’s about $571,000 per employee per year and doesn’t include the CEO’s worth. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense somewhere I suppose and I’m sure I’ll hear about it from the Das Capital defenders any second now. Half a million per year for every employee.

230 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:34:14pm

re: #229 Gus 802

No no, it’s not fair to turn the “how much per job?!?!?” hysteria back on private industry. Only government should be examined in such a way.

231 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:36:19pm

re: #230 Obdicut

No no, it’s not fair to turn the “how much per job?!?!?” hysteria back on private industry. Only government should be examined in such a way.

No fair you can see right through me! It’s my “reverse stimulus” analyzer at work.

Microsoft: $707,000 of revenue per employee.

Almost look like the stimulus created more jobs per dollar than the private sector.

232 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:36:30pm

I know this is OT…..but the message that President Obama will deliver to the UN regarding US policies on aid is EXACTLY what I would want.

For far too long we have just thrown money at problems, without expecting results or having any long-term effect - also know as WASTE (j/k WUB).

Anyway, the President stated that our policy basically ahs fallen short and has created dependence on the US for money. Instead, we are changing this policy to focus more on diplomacy, programs and the like.

This is a smaller, more efficient government way to approach the UN and world-wide poverty. Might I say a fiscally conservative approach that I believe will work.

Bravo Mr. President. Bravo. This is common sense we need and that will work.

233 Lidane  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:36:49pm

re: #12 Fozzie Bear

The 2010 GOP has gone full-retard, apparently. You never go full-retard, everybody knows that.

FTFY

This kind of idiocy isn’t just confined to Delaware, unfortunately. There’s plenty of it to go around, starting here in Texas. =P

234 rwdflynavy  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:37:13pm

C’mon Charles! You’re using the Library of Congress to reference a letter Jefferson supposedly “wrote”? Why not use a non-partisan website instead!
//

235 Lidane  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:38:32pm

re: #232 brownbagj

Watch Obama get crucified for it anyway, for two reasons:

1. It’s him saying it.

2. It’s him saying it.

236 avanti  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:38:42pm

re: #225 Varek Raith

Bill Gates suggested today the extremely rich give away half of it to charity like he will. His estate would still be worth over 15 billion. I agree a 3% increase won’t exactly hurt the rich, and in his case would net millions for Uncle Sugar. I would not mind a compromise to only raise it on a million and up, just to make it harder for the GOP to claim it hurts small businesses. BTW, they could just incorporate and pay themselves 250K and avoid any extra tax.

237 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:38:55pm

So the billionaires have more billions. The banks are finally solvent and are in the black. Then you have the lower form of millionaires that have risen in the past year. The total wealth is at record levels. Everything is primed and pumped…

Yet there are no jobs? What the heck is going on here?

238 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:39:48pm

re: #231 Gus 802

That’s another thing I wanted to touch on. People keep talking about our manufacturing base disappearing over to China. It’s not true. Our manufacturing capacity, both in raw terms and in dollar value, has hugely increased. What hasn’t increased— what has disappeared— are manufacturing jobs, since our manufacturing is now highly automated and US worker productivity is amazing.

[Link: midwest.chicagofedblogs.org…]

This is good news, in a way, since it means that the US as a nation has huge manufacturing power.

This is bad news, in that this means that the owners of those companies are making much more with far fewer jobs, and that that trend continues; manufacturers main aim is to increase efficiency in productivity-per-worker, meaning fewer workers, and fewer jobs.

So, those particular owners get richer and eliminate jobs simultaneously, rather than creating jobs with that wealth.

239 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:40:15pm

re: #237 Gus 802

So the billionaires have more billions. The banks are finally solvent and are in the black. Then you have the lower form of millionaires that have risen in the past year. The total wealth is at record levels. Everything is primed and pumped…

Yet there are no jobs? What the heck is going on here?

Companies realized that they don’t need to create jobs when they can just bully people into working harder.

As far as they’re concerned we’re really not all in it together.

240 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:40:48pm

re: #147 Cato the Elder

In June the Modern Whigs took in the American Centrist party & we got 16.000 more members right there. There are already several thousands of us.

241 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:41:12pm

re: #238 Obdicut

It really does put the lie to ‘what’s good for business is good for America’

242 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:41:41pm

re: #232 brownbagj

I know this is OT…but the message that President Obama will deliver to the UN regarding US policies on aid is EXACTLY what I would want.

For far too long we have just thrown money at problems, without expecting results or having any long-term effect - also know as WASTE (j/k WUB).

Anyway, the President stated that our policy basically ahs fallen short and has created dependence on the US for money. Instead, we are changing this policy to focus more on diplomacy, programs and the like.

This is a smaller, more efficient government way to approach the UN and world-wide poverty. Might I say a fiscally conservative approach that I believe will work.

Bravo Mr. President. Bravo. This is common sense we need and that will work.

So why not apply this way of thinking to domestic spending?

243 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:41:46pm

re: #239 windsagio

Companies realized that they don’t need to create jobs when they can just bully people into working harder.

As far as they’re concerned we’re really not all in it together.

Downsizing. And look at all the record profit stories from 2010:

[Link: www.google.com…]

244 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:41:49pm

re: #237 Gus 802

So the billionaires have more billions. The banks are finally solvent and are in the black. Then you have the lower form of millionaires that have risen in the past year. The total wealth is at record levels. Everything is primed and pumped…

Yet there are no jobs? What the heck is going on here?

Robots
Image: robots_narrowweb__300x3450.jpg

245 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:42:04pm

Hi SFZ, how are you these days?

246 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:42:18pm

re: #211 Gus 802

CLASS WAR!!11!!

247 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:42:56pm

re: #243 Gus 802

But high unemployment is, of course, specifically the Democrat’s fault for not stimulating business better.

248 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:42:57pm

re: #239 windsagio

Companies realized that they don’t need to create jobs when they can just bully people into working harder.

As far as they’re concerned we’re really not all in it together.

They don’t give a fuck at all.

249 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:43:29pm

re: #241 windsagio

It really does put the lie to ‘what’s good for business is good for America’

Chemicals plants are some of the best examples of this. There are refineries and other plants that once employed thousands of workers that now literally get by with about a dozen workers.

This is a large reason for the contraction of the middle class, or the upper lower class, whatever way you want to look at it. Automation replaces skilled and semi-skilled labor, and the service jobs that are available in greater numbers pay much less and have far less job security and portability.

250 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:43:35pm

re: #57 SteelPH

I must’ve missed the part where Hitler used a time machine to go back to the 1700s and rewrite the Constitution. Silly me.

Heh, NAZI super science!!!
Image: nazi-super-science-505x631.jpg

251 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:43:47pm

re: #248 Ojoe

Naturally, its kinda funny that you can’t get somebody to defend that they’re doing the best thing for the economy around here anymore :P

252 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:44:10pm

re: #239 windsagio

You are so right.

I have corporate greed up close during this economic turmoil. I know of a company that has had multiple straight quarters of record profits.

All the while, cutting pay, laying off workers etc. It is really ugly. They are taking advantage of this situation. They know people cannot just walk out, so hours increase, pay decreases, benefits decrease and the pot in the bank just grows and grows.

It is truly disgusting that they are taking advantage of employees like this. And this is a capitalist speaking. I understand people not trusting big business - they have earned it in spades.

253 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:45:01pm

re: #246 Jeff In Ohio

CLASS WAR!!11!!

Line ‘em up! Get them ready to work on the road crews. I got my beard now so I’m read to go John Galt Marx.

//

254 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:45:02pm

re: #251 windsagio

Neither party nor the corporations are doing anything good for the majority of the people.

255 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:45:33pm

re: #242 joest73

One step at a time. :)

I am not certain now is the time to do this. But as we start to dig out, we absolutely we should go through what is getting subsidized - is it working? Is it worth it?

This has not been done for some time.

256 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:46:09pm

re: #247 windsagio

But high unemployment is, of course, specifically the Democrat’s fault for not stimulating business better.

Well….the Democrats sure did blame Reagan in the early 80’s.

257 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:46:15pm

re: #254 Ojoe

The truth is that there’s nothing we can actually do, short of becoming a welfare state :p

I understand either party not wanting to fall on a sword by admitting it.

~~~

It’s the price of decades of the government artificially inflating the economy by various means.

258 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:46:36pm

re: #256 joest73

Well…the Democrats sure did blame Reagan in the early 80’s.

lol shoo.

259 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:46:56pm

re: #252 brownbagj

Capitalism unmitigated by culture and regulation is basically sociopathic. Capitalism is not meant to be a system of governance. When it becomes such, de facto, you get things like the ‘company store’, the Lowell mills, the Triangle Shirtwaist Company.

Too many people have believed the libertarian pablum about consumers informing themselves about bad practices by companies and rejecting their products on ethical grounds. Too many people pretend that perfect information is available to all consumers and producers— when it’s blatantly obvious that information itself is a commodity, subject to both market law and dirty market tricks.

260 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:47:19pm

re: #258 windsagio

ok that was a bit harsh, but seriously.

“THEY DID IT TOO!” is that the best you can come up with?

261 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:47:52pm

re: #237 Gus 802

Can’t talk about other Fortune 50 companies, but my wife’s is propping share price by restricting raises to upper management. Not even COLA’s for 2 years.

It hurts.

CLASS WAR!11!

262 Four More Tears  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:48:02pm

re: #260 windsagio

ok that was a bit harsh, but seriously.

“THEY DID IT TOO!” is that the best you can come up with?

It works in Kindergarten.

263 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:48:09pm

re: #259 Obdicut

Even when there is info, people are selfish too… just look at Wal*Mart. Everyone knows how evil they are (or just about), but it doesn’t stop folks from going for the good bargians >>

264 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:49:17pm

re: #253 Gus 802

LOL road crews. Some classic shit right there.

265 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:50:11pm

re: #263 windsagio

Or all these Tea Party types who happily buy non-American goods, because they’re cheaper.

If you really want to be patriotic, Buy American is still a good value to have. We’re not perfect, but we have much better labor practices than China. And given that Chinese companies often have a quasi-governmental status, you won’t be funding a tyrannical regime.

But this is not even on the Tea Party types agenda.

266 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:50:17pm

re: #264 Jeff In Ohio

LOL road crews. Some classic shit right there.

OMG! That flagman! I think it’s Bill Gates!

/

267 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:50:38pm

re: #259 Obdicut

I agree capitalism is not a system of governance, but I don’t share your opinions re: pablum and sociopathy.

268 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:51:09pm

re: #259 Obdicut

You are spot on Obdicut. I have nothing to add to that.

Other than I do think there are conservatives out there like me. Wandering the wilderness looking for a home.

269 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:51:25pm

re: #256 joest73

Well…the Democrats sure did blame Reagan in the early 80’s.

Even Reagan’s veep ran away from his economic policies……….

270 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:52:09pm

re: #265 Obdicut

And I should add I fail all the time too, just to you know, not be on a high horse…

Still it’s important to try.

To be honest, right now, I think the conservative movement is inherently selfish, if not solipistic (more so than the average person… it makes that selfishness a value).

271 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:53:38pm

Fed set a record in 2009.

Federal Reserve earned $45 billion in 2009

Wall Street firms aren’t the only banks that had a banner year. The Federal Reserve made record profits in 2009, as its unconventional efforts to prop up the economy created a windfall for the government.

And look at the lead in sentence. Wall Street firm had a banner year.

Note, this is not an anti-Fed comment.

272 windsagio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:53:39pm

I… gotta say, it’d be shocking to come here from a year ago and see this thread ;)

(and later, I’m gettin’ waaay too pisst, its not healthy :P)

273 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:53:41pm

re: #267 Liberal Classic

Pure capitalism without some “referee” is sociopathy. It will lead to very bad things.

The argument comes into the level or degree of government oversight. Not whether we need it or not. We need it.

274 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:55:03pm

re: #273 brownbagj

People do bad things. Capitalism is about the exchange of goods and services.

275 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:55:04pm

Billions and trillions of dollars everywhere and yet they are not investing in business, production, etc. This is in the private sector. Yet all we hear about is how “it’s the governments fault” about this or that. The money is just sitting there.

276 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:55:26pm

re: #273 brownbagj

Pure capitalism without some “referee” is sociopathy. It will lead to very bad things.

The argument comes into the level or degree of government oversight. Not whether we need it or not. We need it.

Exactly. Britain during the Industrial Revolution was not a good place to be - very little regulation, child workers, massive pollution, no sanitation standards………….

277 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:55:36pm

re: #256 joest73

Well…the Democrats sure did blame Reagan in the early 80’s.

I’m not following. The 82 recession was a direct result of tight monetary polices of Volcker designed to rein in inflation. Or am I missing something.

278 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:57:49pm

re: #274 Liberal Classic

People do bad things. Capitalism is about the exchange of goods and services.

Companies are people too.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]


The state regulates human people through a series of laws - why not corporate entities masquerading as people too?.

279 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:58:15pm

re: #274 Liberal Classic

Yes, the do bad things. But, if no oversight, what happens when people do bad things, cheat, lie, steal etc.

Capitalism unchecked is what I am saying is wrong. Government has a place at the table.

To me the problem begins due to how politicized government involvement becomes and how the government itself becomes corrupted. When this happens, you get unfair barriers to entry for smaller businesses, sweetheart deals for political cronies etc.

But unchecked capitalism is not healthy either. There is a balance.
Somewhere.

280 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 4:59:06pm

re: #269 wozzablog

Even Reagan’s veep ran away from his economic policies…

And that resulted in the early 90’s recession.

Did TIME have a cover like this for the Obama recession?

281 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:00:24pm

re: #278 wozzablog

The state regulates human people through a series of laws - why not corporate entities masquerading as people too?.

You’re not suggesting the government doesn’t regulate corporations?

282 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:00:48pm

re: #267 Liberal Classic

I agree capitalism is not a system of governance, but I don’t share your opinions re: pablum and sociopathy.

Then make an argument about it.

Here’s my argument:

Pure capitalism leads to circumstances where, for example, de facto monopolies will exist. High capital costs to break into something like, say, the fiber-optic cable market mean that only existing telecoms really have the funds to do intercontinental fiber laying. Similarly, a delivery company that wanted to compete with UPS or FedEx would have to establish itself everywhere simultaneously.

In less structural examples, established companies are able to spend large amounts of money on advertising and/or R&D in a way that smaller, newer companies cannot. The research costs for new drugs, for example, are prohibitive, as are the advertising costs for them.

Venture capital for such projects can and does exist, but it’s not a level market, and the ability of corporations to own corporations means that they can themselves invest in companies that will be their competitors, or create lean, smaller companies under their aegis to gain the advantage of a small business withe the security of a large one.

Now, against that background, consider the role of information in capitalism; this has a number of forms. For one thing, there’s advertising, as i touched on above. Companies can not only control the information of advertising that reaches consumers through some pretty shady means— like owning the companies that make magazines and having them promote their own products— but through sheer volume can price advertising out of the reach of smaller companies. In addition, without any sort of regulation, advertising has no reason not to be fraudulent; fraud becomes just another market tactic, with certain positives and certain negatives.

And to briefly touch on another aspect of information: You probably know a lot of companies. You probably have no clue which of those companies are owned by other companies, subsidiaries of other companies, etc. You don’t know the relationship between companies, and you don’t know almost anything about those companies treatment of their own employees. If we were to quiz you on the aspects of any given company, you would have basically zero knowledge of that company.

Information is a commodity in the capitalistic market, information about a company’s worth, information about their products, information about how they treat their employees, information about who owns who. It is not free, it is not trivial to discover.

Not what’s your argument?

283 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:00:57pm

McClatchy-Marist Poll. Sept. 14-16, 2010
“If the 2012 Republican presidential primary were held today, whom would you support?”

%
Smiley McMormonpants 25
Folksy Moosalini 18
Pious Hucksterbee 16
Newt Crustacean 16
Tim Yawnelty 6
Mitch Who? 4
Haley Blubbour 2
Magic Underpants Fairy 13

ok, my high school humor binge is over for the afternoon…

284 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:01:38pm

re: #280 joest73

And that resulted in the early 90’s recession.

Did TIME have a cover like this for the Obama recession?

Uh-huh. The early 90’s recession started in the late 80’s as a result of Reagans policies of massive debt, low taxes and high spendiing coming home to roost………

285 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:02:26pm

re: #275 Gus 802

Billions and trillions of dollars everywhere and yet they are not investing in business, production, etc. This is in the private sector. Yet all we hear about is how “it’s the governments fault” about this or that. The money is just sitting there.

There’s a reason for that. An economist could probably explain this better but……The fed threw a lot of money into the economy after the crash to keep things afloat. As the economy starts growing again they need to start pulling the money back out slowly. If they keep throwing money into the growing economy it can create inflation. Part of their charter is to control inflation.

286 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:03:25pm

Anyone seen this yet?

“Pledge to America” Unveiled by Republicans

287 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:03:45pm

re: #281 Liberal Classic

You’re not suggesting the government doesn’t regulate corporations?

I was trying to follow your argument and got lost - are you for or against government regulation of the capitalist system?

288 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:03:49pm

re: #279 brownbagj


Capitalism unchecked is what I am saying is wrong. Government has a place at the table.

I just said capitalism was not a system of governance.

289 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:04:25pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

There’s a reason for that. An economist could probably explain this better but…The fed threw a lot of money into the economy after the crash to keep things afloat. As the economy starts growing again they need to start pulling the money back out slowly. If they keep throwing money into the growing economy it can create inflation. Part of their charter is to control inflation.

True but I’m not seeing much movement. The small business loans are still going out slower than molasses.

290 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:04:48pm

re: #288 Liberal Classic

I just said capitalism was not a system of governance.

Then what do you actually disagree with in what I said?

291 SpaceJesus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:05:33pm

holy fucking shit. deport all conservatives immediately

292 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:06:40pm

re: #281 Liberal Classic

You’re not suggesting the government doesn’t regulate corporations?

They don’t regulate them enough, that’s for fucking sure

Unless you thought mortgage loan practices in the last few years were just peachy

293 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:07:08pm

Is it unpopular to defend free market economics around here? I generally consider the free exchange of goods and services as something the government should minimize its interference in. While there is some Paulian craziness wrapped up in the bad craziness that is the topic of this thread, let’s not forget the ascendant conservative movement has a hard time talking about liberty and freedom in any other context that religious.

294 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:07:25pm

re: #257 windsagio

I understand either party not wanting to fall on a sword by admitting it.

Even more, that they both had a big hand in getting us to the place we are now.

It galls me to see whichever current out party, miming that the mess is the fault of the in party, and that the out party is going to fix it. Or even knows how to fix it.

295 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:08:39pm

re: #293 Liberal Classic

Is it unpopular to defend free market economics around here? I generally consider the free exchange of goods and services as something the government should minimize its interference in. While there is some Paulian craziness wrapped up in the bad craziness that is the topic of this thread, let’s not forget the ascendant conservative movement has a hard time talking about liberty and freedom in any other context that religious.

free markets do not stay free, any first year ecomics student can tell you that.

Capitalism does not exist in a vacuum of giving the little guy a fair shake and where there are no dishonest players - ENRON……anyone?……anyone?

296 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:08:55pm

re: #260 windsagio

ok that was a bit harsh, but seriously.

“THEY DID IT TOO!” is that the best you can come up with?

Tell that to the Obama administration because they have no problem deflecting blame for everything.

297 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:09:01pm

re: #289 Gus 802

True but I’m not seeing much movement. The small business loans are still going out slower than molasses.

The economy is growing slowly and as I recall that is part of the plan. Remember near the beginning of the crisis and stimulus there was a lot of talk about hyperinflation? Mostly from the wingnuts and Paulians but we don’t hear much about it anymore. The economy is growing slowly which gives the Fed time to reduce the money supply. If the economy grows too fast the Fed can’t sell enough treasuries to sop up the extra liquidity.

298 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:09:57pm

re: #296 joest73

Tell that to the Obama administration because they have no problem deflecting blame for everything.

What’s up class of 2004 dude from nowhere who makes two posts a month, how’s it hanging

299 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:09:58pm

re: #240 Ojoe

In June the Modern Whigs took in the American Centrist party & we got 16.000 more members right there. There are already several thousands of us.


I may just join you. My brother has now joined the Tea Party. I can’t bring myself to support either party. I’ve been Independent since I registered the first time. Ready to find some other way to play the game.

300 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:10:05pm

re: #286 eclectic infidel

Anyone seen this yet?

“Pledge to America” Unveiled by Republicans

Yep.

301 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:10:29pm

re: #259 Obdicut

Adam SMith himself said in so many words, that the market would not work unless it were under-grid by a basic , solid system of morality. I forget wether he used the word Christian in saying so or not.

302 Killgore Trout  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:10:33pm

re: #293 Liberal Classic

Free market fundamentalism is very dangerous. It simply doesn’t work.

303 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:11:49pm

our national experiment with unregulated capitalism in the late 19th century resulted in standard oil eating up all other oil companies, and an abundance of patent medicines full of secret ingredients such as opium

304 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:11:54pm

re: #300 wrenchwench

Yep.

AN ARROGANT AND OUT PF TOUCH GOVERNMENT ELITES BLAH BLAH FOUNDING PRINCIPLES BLAH CONSTITUTION BLAH TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE FUCK THE QUEERS BLAH ACTIVIST JUDGES BLAH BLAH WHERE’S MY BATHTUB GIN

305 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:11:56pm

re: #252 brownbagj

You are so right.

I have corporate greed up close during this economic turmoil. I know of a company that has had multiple straight quarters of record profits.

All the while, cutting pay, laying off workers etc. It is really ugly. They are taking advantage of this situation. They know people cannot just walk out, so hours increase, pay decreases, benefits decrease and the pot in the bank just grows and grows.

It is truly disgusting that they are taking advantage of employees like this. And this is a capitalist speaking. I understand people not trusting big business - they have earned it in spades.


What a bunch of capitalist pigs. Yup, it’s all American to slash wages, cut pensions, and threaten with lay offs. Behavior like this may one day spell the collapse of capitalism as we know it, replaced with a socialist-controlled capitalist society.

306 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:11:59pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Free market fundamentalism is very dangerous. It simply doesn’t work.

Remember the Robber Barons? I’m glad we regulate markets…

307 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:12:00pm

re: #296 joest73

Tell that to the Obama administration because they have no problem deflecting blame for everything.

yes - like the massive fucking deficit and unsustainable spending policies (wars on credit cards) and tax policies combining with a clusterfuck of no economic oversight………………..

yes. everything now is his fault.

308 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:12:10pm

re: #299 Escaped Hillbilly

OK Cool. I went like this: Democrat, Independent, Green, Independent, Whig.

309 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:12:31pm

re: #286 eclectic infidel

Anyone seen this yet?

“Pledge to America” Unveiled by Republicans

Sad to see no real cuts in Defense spending…. you can’t cut everything else but defense.

310 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:13:21pm

re: #302 Killgore Trout

Free market fundamentalism is very dangerous. It simply doesn’t work.

Please don’t confuse me with a “free market fundamentalist.” I’ve said twice that economics isn’t a form of governance, but I’m a capitalist, and happily so.

I’m also an atheist and social liberal. I’m appalled by direction God’s Own Party is moving.

311 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:13:23pm

re: #293 Liberal Classic

Define free market.

It seems we are talking past each other, or I am misunderstanding what you mean.

I believe in “free” markets that have the proper level of government oversight to ensure consumer protection, proper work environments, credible accounting etc.

I am not sure, as Obdicut isn’t either, why you feel we are against free markets. No one I know of is saying that. We are saying capitalism is a great economic form but it must have some (proper) oversight.

Is this odd somehow?

312 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:13:34pm

re: #307 wozzablog

yes - like the massive fucking deficit and unsustainable spending policies (wars on credit cards) and tax policies combining with a clusterfuck of no economic oversight…

yes. everything now is his fault.

remember when Obama made the call to take us into Iraq

That was awesome

313 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:14:03pm

re: #293 Liberal Classic

Is it unpopular to defend free market economics around here?

Depends what you mean by ‘free market economics’.

Unregulated capitalism? Yes. That’s insane.

I generally consider the free exchange of goods and services as something the government should minimize its interference in.

Why, given things like the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, the Lowell Mills, the use of the Pinkertons, Massey, BP, etc?

Why is ‘minimize’ the goal?

314 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:14:04pm

re: #304 WindUpBird

Man, when you get wound up you go full tilt. :)

315 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:14:08pm

re: #309 joest73

Sad to see no real cuts in Defense spending… you can’t cut everything else but defense.

In the middle of two wars? How about in a few years when things wind down?

316 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:14:10pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

The economy is growing slowly and as I recall that is part of the plan. Remember near the beginning of the crisis and stimulus there was a lot of talk about hyperinflation? Mostly from the wingnuts and Paulians but we don’t hear much about it anymore. The economy is growing slowly which gives the Fed time to reduce the money supply. If the economy grows too fast the Fed can’t sell enough treasuries to sop up the extra liquidity.

Well, it looks ready to me but that doesn’t count since I have a pedestrian view of these things. Apparently though, not according to the Fed since they’re ready to prime the pump (accommodation) some more this week. That’s what rallied the bond and gold markets.

317 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:14:42pm

re: #304 WindUpBird

AN ARROGANT AND OUT PF TOUCH GOVERNMENT ELITES BLAH BLAH FOUNDING PRINCIPLES BLAH CONSTITUTION BLAH TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE FUCK THE QUEERS BLAH ACTIVIST JUDGES BLAH BLAH WHERE’S MY BATHTUB GIN

it’s them durn revenooers agin

318 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:14:57pm

If you want unregulated capitalism, move to Rapture.

319 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:16:29pm

re: #318 Varek Raith

Even under-regulated capitalism gives you things like the exploding PG & E gas line.

320 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:17:20pm

Holy crap Batman.
A 1GB mod…
Comcast is so gonna hate me.
:)

321 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:18:23pm

re: #320 Varek Raith

They have “processes” to handle that.

Good luck. :)

322 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:18:42pm

re: #315 HoosierHoops

In the middle of two wars? How about in a few years when things wind down?

I worked for a Defense company near the end of the Clinton administration…. trust me there is plenty to trim.

323 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:19:03pm

re: #249 Obdicut

Chemicals plants are some of the best examples of this. There are refineries and other plants that once employed thousands of workers that now literally get by with about a dozen workers.

This is a large reason for the contraction of the middle class, or the upper lower class, whatever way you want to look at it. Automation replaces skilled and semi-skilled labor, and the service jobs that are available in greater numbers pay much less and have far less job security and portability.

I worked my way through college at GEs Appliance Park. It supported 25,000 good-paying jobs. At last look, it had about 6,000.

324 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:19:18pm

re: #311 brownbagj


I am not sure, as Obdicut isn’t either, why you feel we are against free markets.

Based on the level of snark.

We are saying capitalism is a great economic form but it must have some (proper) oversight. Is this odd somehow?

No, and I am fine with it. The general sense I get is fiscal conservatives are getting tossed out along with the bad craziness bathwater.

325 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:19:58pm

re: #322 joest73

And as I mentioned up above - no single area should be holy. Look at all areas of spend and be smart with tax payer money.

There are efficiencies and cost reductions to be found.

326 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:20:00pm

re: #324 Liberal Classic

Based on the level of snark.

No, and I am fine with it. The general sense I get is fiscal conservatives are getting tossed out along with the bad craziness bathwater.

Name me fiscal conservative…

327 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:20:37pm

So yeah. The economy is still recovering and it’s all Obama’s and the Democrats fault (eleventy!!11ty). We have a sure fire plan to fix that folks. Read our GOP Pledge and vote for the anti-masturbation witch with a tax lien and the guy that thinks “Separation of Church and State” came from Hitler.

That should fix it.

//

328 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:20:39pm

re: #275 Gus 802

Billions and trillions of dollars everywhere and yet they are not investing in business, production, etc. This is in the private sector. Yet all we hear about is how “it’s the governments fault” about this or that. The money is just sitting there.

The money is creating jobs. Somewhere else.

329 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:20:40pm

re: #326 Varek Raith

Name me fiscal a conservative…

330 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:21:00pm

re: #329 Varek Raith

Dammit!
I can’t edit worth crap!

331 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:21:23pm

re: #324 Liberal Classic

Based on the level of snark.

No, and I am fine with it. The general sense I get is fiscal conservatives are getting tossed out along with the bad craziness bathwater.

people genuinely in favour of low taxes, small government and the generally laissez faire are more than welcome, but must take account for the swinging cuts that would take place in order to achieve the ideals.

332 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:21:34pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

There’s a reason for that. An economist could probably explain this better but…The fed threw a lot of money into the economy after the crash to keep things afloat. As the economy starts growing again they need to start pulling the money back out slowly. If they keep throwing money into the growing economy it can create inflation. Part of their charter is to control inflation.

Funny, the Fed seems to think more inflation would be just the thing.

333 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:21:47pm

re: #313 Obdicut

Why is ‘minimize’ the goal?

Because the free market is efficient. Efficiency can be measured and quantified. Fairness, on the other hand is hard to measure and quantify. I believe in regulation for purposes of fairness, but economic policy should be formulated with efficiency in mind.

334 Linden Arden  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:22:22pm

Teabaggers sure as Hell want to separate church and state when it comes to Sharia Law.

Like Newt said - “Outlaw Sharia!”

Too bad Newt couldn’t remember the First Amendment already did that.

335 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:22:32pm

re: #324 Liberal Classic

If I came off as snark I truly did not mean too. Pure text does that sometimes.

I am a fiscal conservative (truly am) and a social liberal. So we are very similar.

Again, sorry for any snark that I may have accidentally throre: #326 Varek Raith

Name me fiscal conservative…

brownbagj. :)

336 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:22:48pm

re: #333 Liberal Classic

Because the free market is efficient.

Efficient at what?

Efficiency can be measured and quantified.

Actually, it is staggeringly difficult to do so.

What is the efficiency of the tobacco industry?

337 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:23:05pm

re: #312 WindUpBird

remember when Obama made the call to take us into Iraq

That was awesome

Well he sure has done well with his re: #329 Varek Raith

The only guy that comes close is Chris Christie….only because he doesn’t yet need to have a position on defense spending.

338 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:23:44pm

re: #333 Liberal Classic

And this is what I hinted to earlier. It is not government involvement we are debating (as it appears you agree there needs to be some).

It is the amount/level/degree and how it is applied that is key.

339 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:23:51pm

re: #336 Obdicut

Efficient at what?

Actually, it is staggeringly difficult to do so.

What is the efficiency of the tobacco industry?

It trims the Social Security rolls.

340 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:24:33pm

re: #331 wozzablog

people genuinely in favour of low taxes, small government and the generally laissez faire are more than welcome…

Doesn’t seem that way. I haven’t gotten a single up ding. Maybe it’s because I haven’t been waxing eloquent. :)

341 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:24:34pm

re: #303 engineer dog

our national experiment with unregulated capitalism in the late 19th century resulted in standard oil eating up all other oil companies, and an abundance of patent medicines full of secret ingredients such as opium


I miss the good old days. sigh

342 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:25:23pm

re: #336 Obdicut

Looking at the level of lung cancer here and their ability to shift their poison overseas outside of US regulation - they appear to be pretty damn efficient.

How does 90% sound?

/

343 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:25:39pm

re: #339 Decatur Deb

It trims the Social Security rolls.

If that’s their intent, I’d say they’re pretty inefficient.

344 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:25:47pm

re: #333 Liberal Classic

Because the free market is efficient.

It really isn’t.

The derivatives that flooded the money markets containing nothing but junk were free market play the game bullshit.

And - unless you have a monopolies regulator or some kind of body to oversee competition all the firms club together to form cartels that screw the public or become monopolies which are truly inefficient

345 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:25:50pm

re: #240 Ojoe

In June the Modern Whigs took in the American Centrist party & we got 16.000 more members right there. There are already several thousands of us.

I expect you’ll win an election any century now.

346 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:26:15pm

re: #337 joest73

Well he sure has done well with his re: #329 Varek Raith

The only guy that comes close is Chris Christie…only because he doesn’t yet need to have a position on defense spending.

Chris Christie? Well, you know the drill. If there was ever going to be any interest he will first have to anointed and blessed by the Holy Church of the GOP: The Religious Right. Once that starts to happen he’ll slowly morph into Boss Hog from Duke of Hazard replete with the occasional yokelisms.

//

347 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:26:24pm

re: #340 Liberal Classic

I just gave you one. :)

Hang in there. Fiscal conservatives are welcome. I am one and these folks accept me with open, yet cautious arms. :)

348 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:26:39pm

re: #343 jaunte

If that’s their intent, I’d say they’re pretty inefficient.

They admitted as much, in a position paper to an E. European legislature. Will look.

349 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:27:03pm

re: #346 Gus 802

Dukes of Hazard. Plural gall darn it.

350 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:27:42pm

re: #340 Liberal Classic

Doesn’t seem that way. I haven’t gotten a single up ding. Maybe it’s because I haven’t been waxing eloquent. :)

it helps to throw in a few french words now and again.

But seriously - laissez faire economics doesn’t work. Over-regulation does not work. There is a middle ground - you read as if you don’t believe in a middle ground, instead you want it slanted in favour of the laissez faire.

351 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:28:31pm

re: #348 Decatur Deb

They admitted as much, in a position paper to an E. European legislature. Will look.

Link:

[Link: www.google.com…]

352 Linden Arden  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:29:05pm

Unless Chris Christie visits the Holy Ground of Bob Jones University in South Carolina and genuflects before the SoCon lords and vicars he will never be GOP presidential material.

And so we all lose.

353 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:29:38pm

re: #349 Gus 802

Dukes of Hazard. Plural gall darn it.

Hazzard. Don’t confuse with Hazard, KY. No, don’t. Darn it.

354 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:29:38pm

re: #350 wozzablog

it helps to throw in a few french words now and again.

But seriously - laissez faire economics doesn’t work. Over-regulation does not work. There is a middle ground - you read as if you don’t believe in a middle ground, instead you want it slanted in favour of the laissez faire.

I apologise if i misread you - but you genuinely don’t read as someone supporting the required (by proven economic laws) measures needed to keep markets free.

355 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:29:55pm

re: #351 Decatur Deb
Wow, Poe’s law strikes again. That’s a chilling approach to take to try to sell your poison.

356 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:29:57pm

Little else is requisite to carry a state to the highest degree of opulence from the lowest barbarism but peace, easy taxes, and a tolerable administration of justice: all the rest being brought about by the natural course of things.
Adam Smith


Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience.
Adam Smith

357 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:30:27pm

re: #353 Decatur Deb

Hazzard. Don’t confuse with Hazard, KY. No, don’t. Darn it.

Well Jiminy Crickets. My mistake pardner.

//

358 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:30:35pm

re: #345 Cato the Elder

I expect you’ll win an election any century now.

Sooner if you join.

359 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:30:57pm

re: #353 Decatur Deb

Wasn’t it supposed to be Hazard, Kentucky? Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaawwww.

360 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:31:18pm

re: #355 jaunte

Wow, Poe’s law strikes again. That’s a chilling approach to take to try to sell your poison.

That’s just the market speaking. Which is better than an Invisible Hand job.

361 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:31:28pm

re: #358 Ojoe

One down, ~50 million to go.

362 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:31:52pm

Here’s an interesting tax-increase factoid:
‘IRS data shows 80 percent of those facing higher taxes under Obama earn between $200,000 and $500,000. An analysis by the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation in August concluded their taxes would increase on average by $532 a year.’
[Link: www.businessweek.com…]

363 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:32:43pm

re: #362 jaunte

Here’s an interesting tax-increase factoid:
‘IRS data shows 80 percent of those facing higher taxes under Obama earn between $200,000 and $500,000. An analysis by the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation in August concluded their taxes would increase on average by $532 a year.’
[Link: www.businessweek.com…]

OH FUCK THOSE POOR PEOPLE HOW EVER WILL THEY MANAGE

364 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:32:49pm

re: #359 brownbagj

Wasn’t it supposed to be Hazard, Kentucky? Yeeehaaawww.

Only in the minds of a few million viewers. (Been there—closest thing to a carrier landing I ever want to make.)

365 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:32:53pm

re: #280 joest73

And that resulted in the early 90’s recession.

Did TIME have a cover like this for the Obama recession?

Hello Pot

re: #296 joest73

Tell that to the Obama administration because they have no problem deflecting blame for everything.

Have you met kettle?

366 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:33:07pm

re: #362 jaunte

Here’s an interesting tax-increase factoid:
‘IRS data shows 80 percent of those facing higher taxes under Obama earn between $200,000 and $500,000. An analysis by the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation in August concluded their taxes would increase on average by $532 a year.’
[Link: www.businessweek.com…]

Hide that!

/

367 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:33:32pm

efficiency

i’m not sure that this is a really worthwhile value to be striving for anywhere outside of the realms of machinery, electronics, war, or logistics

we might find that a very efficient economy with very efficient companies would be hell on us all personally

368 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:33:47pm

re: #362 jaunte

Here’s an interesting tax-increase factoid:
‘IRS data shows 80 percent of those facing higher taxes under Obama earn between $200,000 and $500,000. An analysis by the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation in August concluded their taxes would increase on average by $532 a year.’
[Link: www.businessweek.com…]

LOL.
$532…
LOL.

369 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:34:02pm

re: #363 WindUpBird

re: #366 Gus 802

It’s surprising how little it takes to drive people politically insane.

370 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:34:09pm

re: #367 engineer dog

Very well said.

371 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:34:18pm

Oh God. Adam Smith and the invisible hand job.

372 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:34:25pm

I know I’m crying, nay, I am weeping for people who make 9 times as much money as I do take the same hit I took when I had to get the brakes done on my Volvo

Oh it’s like communist highway muslim robbery all up in this, down with the Obamunist Dicktator, down with him and his thieving hordes

373 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:34:29pm

re: #367 engineer dog

efficiency

i’m not sure that this is a really worthwhile value to be striving for anywhere outside of the realms of machinery, electronics, war, or logistics

we might find that a very efficient economy with very efficient companies would be hell on us all personally

Not to mention efficient government—scariest of all!

374 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:34:36pm

re: #371 Cato the Elder

Oh God. Adam Smith and the invisible hand job.

CAPITALISM, HO!

375 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:34:45pm

re: #364 Decatur Deb

Only in the minds of a few million viewers. (Been there—closest thing to a carrier landing I ever want to make.)

I remember a MAD magazine parody of the Dukes of Hazard.

Boo and Puke Luke. Uncle Jazzy. Anus was the deputy.

376 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:35:02pm

re: #352 Linden Arden

Unless Chris Christie visits the Holy Ground of Bob Jones University in South Carolina and genuflects before the SoCon lords and vicars he will never be GOP presidential material.

And so we all lose.

Hopefully that excludes “mittens” then. I like Christie…weight issues and all….

377 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:35:08pm

re: #362 jaunte

Here’s an interesting tax-increase factoid:
‘IRS data shows 80 percent of those facing higher taxes under Obama earn between $200,000 and $500,000. An analysis by the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation in August concluded their taxes would increase on average by $532 a year.’
[Link: www.businessweek.com…]

$532? It’s not me so easy for me to say but…that’s all?

378 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:35:19pm

re: #363 WindUpBird

OH FUCK THOSE POOR PEOPLE HOW EVER WILL THEY MANAGE

The poor attorneys will have to work an extra 3 billable hours a year to accommodate! That is so horrible. My empathy for them breaks my heart.

//

379 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:35:47pm

re: #370 Ojoe

thank you!

380 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:36:15pm

That is between 40-50 per month.

Do you know how many lattes will no longer be bought?

381 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:36:34pm

re: #368 Varek Raith

LOL.
$532…
LOL.

Stunning, isn’t it? All the f*cking whining for a mere $532 average increase.

382 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:36:37pm

re: #367 engineer dog

efficiency

i’m not sure that this is a really worthwhile value to be striving for anywhere outside of the realms of machinery, electronics, war, or logistics

we might find that a very efficient economy with very efficient companies would be hell on us all personally

companies that try to be too efficient fall off the end of the curve very very very quickly.

To use a kitchen analogy -

Too many cooks spoil the broth - but reduce the kitchen staff around the cook and he becomes too busy to manage the broth himself. End result - its spoiled either way.

383 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:36:38pm

re: #379 engineer dog

You are welcome.

BBL

384 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:37:04pm

re: #367 engineer dog

efficiency

i’m not sure that this is a really worthwhile value to be striving for anywhere outside of the realms of machinery, electronics, war, or logistics

we might find that a very efficient economy with very efficient companies would be hell on us all personally

I actually would rather my government pay attention to the needs of its citizens, and act it its own best interests by educating its citizens and providing higher education opportunities for them to reach their full potential

I just find that to be more of a human goal than shaving off a few bucks a year and wringing my hands like a 50’s housewife when a poor person gets a break

Efficiency is for ants, we’re human beings

385 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:37:15pm

re: #377 Escaped Hillbilly

On average, according to Business Week and the IRS, but who knows what the business commentators on tv will have to pony up/complain about.

386 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:37:29pm

re: #324 Liberal Classic

Based on the level of snark.

No, and I am fine with it. The general sense I get is fiscal conservatives are getting tossed out along with the bad craziness bathwater.

I hope not.

You might see a lot of snark from a lefty like me, as these conversations on the free market usually start with an accusations of class war (it’s MINE MINE MINE!11!!), poor people contribute nothing to the support of the republic (I’ll let my garbage man know), etc. etc.

387 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:37:33pm

re: #367 engineer dog

efficiency

i’m not sure that this is a really worthwhile value to be striving for anywhere outside of the realms of machinery, electronics, war, or logistics

we might find that a very efficient economy with very efficient companies would be hell on us all personally


Actually might be part of our problem now. As Gus was pointing out, money is there, we are producing like crazy, yet there are few jobs. We are too efficient in some areas.

388 brownbagj  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:37:48pm

Nite all. Great conversations again. I always enjoy my time here.

389 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:38:09pm

re: #378 Gus 802

The poor attorneys will have to work an extra 3 billable hours a year to accommodate! That is so horrible. My empathy for them breaks my heart.

//

I know, I’m going to buy a mourning bouquet and lay it on the hood of that poor poor attorney’s Maserati Quattroporte

390 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:38:12pm

re: #380 brownbagj

That is between 40-50 per month.

Do you know how many lattes will no longer be bought?

That’s 40 to 50 dollars that will be used to house, feed and arm the Obamunist armies that will force us in front of death panels and take away our gunz!!111ty

//

391 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:38:34pm

re: #373 wrenchwench

Not to mention efficient government—scariest of all!


Lucky we don’t get the government we pay for?

392 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:38:34pm

re: #386 Jeff In Ohio

I hope not.

You might see a lot of snark from a lefty like me, as these conversations on the free market usually start with an accusations of class war (it’s MINE MINE MINE!11!!), poor people contribute nothing to the support of the republic (I’ll let my garbage man know), etc. etc.

For the record, I snark on everything.
;)

393 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:38:50pm

re: #365 Jeff In Ohio

Hello Pot

re: #296 joest73

Have you met kettle?

Cute….but I think the President should be held to a higher standard. Going out in campaign mode and talking about how the Republicans will drive us off the cliff….is unpresidential.

394 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:39:30pm

re: #393 joest73

Cute…but I think the President should be held to a higher standard. Going out in campaign mode and talking about how the Republicans will drive us off the cliff…is unpresidential.

downding for the “permanent campaign” meme.

they all fucking do it.

395 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:39:57pm

re: #386 Jeff In Ohio

I hope not.

You might see a lot of snark from a lefty like me, as these conversations on the free market usually start with an accusations of class war (it’s MINE MINE MINE!11!!), poor people contribute nothing to the support of the republic (I’ll let my garbage man know), etc. etc.


It’s MY MONEY NOT THE GOVERNMENT’S MONEY I ALLOW THEM TO STEAL MY TAXES BUT LET’S NEVER FORGET IT’S STEALING THIS IS A VERY INFORMED AND LOGICAL PHILOSOPHY THAT WAS TOLD TO ME BY THE GREAT MEN OF THE GOP

396 122 Year Old Obama  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:40:57pm

re: #395 WindUpBird

It’s MY MONEY NOT THE GOVERNMENT’S MONEY I ALLOW THEM TO STEAL MY TAXES BUT LET’S NEVER FORGET IT’S STEALING THIS IS A VERY INFORMED AND LOGICAL PHILOSOPHY THAT WAS TOLD TO ME BY THE GREAT MEN OF THE GOP FOX NEWS

FTFY

397 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:42:09pm

re: #393 joest73

Cute…but I think the President should be held to a higher standard. Going out in campaign mode and talking about how the Republicans will drive us off the cliff…is unpresidential.

hey mister talking point script!

Why don’t you let the real joest73 know that he should probably return to his computer and start writing like a real human instead of letting the GOP talking point dispenser do all the writing for him

398 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:42:16pm

re: #390 Gus 802

That’s 40 to 50 dollars that will be used to house, feed and arm the Obamunist armies that will force us in front of death panels and take away our gunz!!111ty

//

You know, I have to be honest, with companies making record profits while threatening or actually slashing wages, with jobs lost overseas, with endless foreign wars, and with 12.5% unemployment here in California, I honestly can’t find the emotional strength to really give a flying fuck about the Second Amendment.

399 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:42:28pm

re: #396 SteelPH

FTFY

God bless Bill O’Reilly, I have all his books

400 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:43:56pm

re: #394 wozzablog

downding for the “permanent campaign” meme.

they all fucking do it.

Maybe a little….. so the economy started to turn at the end of GWB’s second term. Did he go out and give speeches on how the Democratic congress was at fault?

401 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:44:19pm

re: #398 eclectic infidel

You know, I have to be honest, with companies making record profits while threatening or actually slashing wages, with jobs lost overseas, with endless foreign wars, and with 12.5% unemployment here in California, I honestly can’t find the emotional strength to really give a flying fuck about the Second Amendment.

I still don’t understand the paranoia about gun ownership. The NRA practically controls Congress. For their own specific interests that is. The 2nd Amendment isn’t going anywhere.

402 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:45:09pm

re: #8 Obdicut

Again:

—Thomas Jefferson

Thank you for that. I hate lies like that. I invested many days worth of my life to understand the history of the rise of the Nazis and WWII. And to see this idiots blithely ignore that history in favor of a polemic like that drives me up a wall. Thank goodness I have better congressional candidate to vote for than that. Because if it were that guy versus Schankowsky I’d live that line of the ballot blank.

403 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:45:19pm

re: #397 WindUpBird

hey mister talking point script!

Why don’t you let the real joest73 know that he should probably return to his computer and start writing like a real human instead of letting the GOP talking point dispenser do all the writing for him

OK…that was funny….

404 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:46:10pm

A simple question:

Which is more contemptible?

The dim-witted, unlettered and insane, but misled and propagandized rube who mistakenly thinks they know better and would tear down the values of this nation out of an expedient sop to their own base fears hatred and ignorance…

The raving politician who truly believes the hateful message and would seek fame power and and an imposition of their twisted vision on the world by leading the rubes…

The opportunistic propagandist who knows better and pushes the evil message because firing up the rubes makes a profit and maintains and expands a niche market based on ever spiraling paranoia and insanity…

The behind the scenes career politician who knows better, but sees attaching themselves to this as a pathway to power and lends it legitimacy…

Or finally, the “opposition” party, who is too fractured by personal fiefdoms and concerns to stand up to it and who is too craven to act or even call the lies, lies and evil, evil?

405 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:47:16pm

re: #400 joest73

Maybe a little… so the economy started to turn at the end of GWB’s second term. Did he go out and give speeches on how the Democratic congress was at fault?


after less than two years of a Democratic House and Senate………..when there had been one party rule for 6 years?

He would have been laughed at more than usual.

406 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:47:20pm

re: #401 Gus 802

I still don’t understand the paranoia about gun ownership. The NRA practically controls Congress. For their own specific interests that is. The 2nd Amendment isn’t going anywhere.

Which reminds me. The NRA called me up one night. Talk about weird. She had the United Nations out and everything. Dark clouds even formed inside my apartment until I finally said, “not interested.”

407 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:47:56pm

re: #393 joest73

Bush didn’t but Truman did, and so did both Presidents Roosevelt. Weather a President gets down into the trenches like that really depends on who that President is personally.

408 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:48:06pm

re: #398 eclectic infidel

You know, I have to be honest, with companies making record profits while threatening or actually slashing wages, with jobs lost overseas, with endless foreign wars, and with 12.5% unemployment here in California, I honestly can’t find the emotional strength to really give a flying fuck about the Second Amendment.


Easy there. That is exactly why we have those Amendments. In tough times, people are willing to throw out this or that right. Can’t believe you’re really one of those.

409 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:48:18pm

The UN is going to take yer gunz!!11ty They’re also going to force you to buy a red girlz bike to replace your F-150!!11ty

//

410 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:48:26pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote

A simple question:

Which is more contemptible?

The dim-witted, unlettered and insane, but misled and propagandized rube who mistakenly thinks they know better and would tear down the values of this nation out of an expedient sop to their own base fears hatred and ignorance…

The raving politician who truly believes the hateful message and would seek fame power and and an imposition of their twisted vision on the world by leading the rubes…

The opportunistic propagandist who knows better and pushes the evil message because firing up the rubes makes a profit and maintains and expands a niche market based on ever spiraling paranoia and insanity…

The behind the scenes career politician who knows better, but sees attaching themselves to this as a pathway to power and lends it legitimacy…

Or finally, the “opposition” party, who is too fractured by personal fiefdoms and concerns to stand up to it and who is too craven to act or even call the lies, lies and evil, evil?

It’s, like, just the System Dude. The System.

411 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:48:54pm

re: #393 joest73

Cute…but I think the President should be held to a higher standard. Going out in campaign mode and talking about how the Republicans will drive us off the cliff…is unpresidential.

A higher standard then you and me? Sure. Other then that, i have no idea what the fuck you are trying to say.

The GOP already had a run at the cliff. In my reality based environment, that doesn’t get you second chance. But wtf, it’s America, and we got all those checks and balances and shit, so I’m happy to fuck with them for another 2 years while they demonstrate( like they did in the 90’s) what a bunch of clueless, head up their asses culture warriors they are.

Hopefully it will produce a party with real ideas instead of real douchebags.

412 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:49:10pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote

Long time no see!
How ya doing?

413 Political Atheist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:50:08pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote

Hi Ludwig,
Hmm. It’s a bit of a mobius question. But I’ll go GOP on those.

414 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:50:11pm

re: #367 engineer dog

efficiency

i’m not sure that this is a really worthwhile value to be striving for anywhere outside of the realms of machinery, electronics, war, or logistics

we might find that a very efficient economy with very efficient companies would be hell on us all personally

Just so. As my favorite author said, “The Holocaust was very efficient.”

415 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:50:36pm

Communism and even democratic socialism failed in this country because leaders like Theodore Roosevelt did what was needed to bring the worst abuses of capitalism under control.
For most of a century, the unspoken challenge from the political leadership to business has been, “Deal with us or deal with the Bolsheviks. Your choice.”
This has been such a part of the social landscape that we have seldom paid attention to it, or to the balanced partnership of labor, management, and consumers that developed as a result. Now, though, the airwaves and the net are filled with demagogues and hucksters who assert that no such partnership ever existed, or that it is an immoral intrusion on their liberty if it did.
People will only tolerate so much abuse. Unregulated, laissez-faire capitalism is not a ticket to prosperity, it is a ticket to socialism or worse.

416 Lidane  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:50:39pm

re: #270 windsagio

To be honest, right now, I think the conservative movement is inherently selfish, if not solipistic (more so than the average person… it makes that selfishness a value).

That’s because someone convinced these morons that Ayn Rand had ideas they should emulate.

418 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:50:58pm

Another set of simple questions:

When does consorting with evil make one evil themselves?

At what point do the good people of America wake up and start screaming?

The Establishment Clause was established to escape the tyranny of theocracy and the horror of religious war. At what point do people realize that history gleefully kills those who ignore its lessons?

What of science? At what point do people realize that the laws of physics have no parameter for mercy, no do overs, no second chances and that cause and effect will kill without remorse?

419 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:51:23pm

re: #406 Gus 802

Which reminds me. The NRA called me up one night. Talk about weird. She had the United Nations out and everything. Dark clouds even formed inside my apartment until I finally said, “not interested.”

No no no, you are interested. I got that call once. When Iw as done with her, the woman had sputtered into a coronary. Good times, my friend, good times. I love being a registered Independent, I get all the great calls expecting allegiance.

420 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:51:30pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote

A simple question:

Which is more contemptible?

The dim-witted, unlettered and insane, but misled and propagandized rube who mistakenly thinks they know better and would tear down the values of this nation out of an expedient sop to their own base fears hatred and ignorance…

The raving politician who truly believes the hateful message and would seek fame power and and an imposition of their twisted vision on the world by leading the rubes…

The opportunistic propagandist who knows better and pushes the evil message because firing up the rubes makes a profit and maintains and expands a niche market based on ever spiraling paranoia and insanity…

The behind the scenes career politician who knows better, but sees attaching themselves to this as a pathway to power and lends it legitimacy…

Or finally, the “opposition” party, who is too fractured by personal fiefdoms and concerns to stand up to it and who is too craven to act or even call the lies, lies and evil, evil?

The Dems have a tendency to be fractious, true. But they’re not going to say much about this for tactical reasons: Most Democrats are trying to localize their elections and focus on what they have done for their locality. They don’t want to use out-of-state issues to avoid having the economy be the main issue.

421 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:52:33pm

re: #414 Romantic Heretic

Just so. As my favorite author said, “The Holocaust was very efficient.”

That’s a little unfair to me, especially in a thread in which a Republican is calling the separation of church and state a Nazi invention. :(

422 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:53:12pm

re: #408 Escaped Hillbilly

Easy there. That is exactly why we have those Amendments. In tough times, people are willing to throw out this or that right. Can’t believe you’re really one of those.

I don’t see it as an important Amendment, all things considered. As another lizard pointed out though, it isn’t going anywhere either, and I’m OK with that too. Using the Second Amendment as a means to invent false alarm just strikes me as petty. That’s all.

423 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:53:19pm

re: #401 Gus 802

I still don’t understand the paranoia about gun ownership. The NRA practically controls Congress. For their own specific interests that is. The 2nd Amendment isn’t going anywhere.

They control congress and they also have the means and resources to convince rubes they don’t control congress ;-)

424 Lidane  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:53:22pm

re: #309 joest73

Sad to see no real cuts in Defense spending… you can’t cut everything else but defense.

The day that a bunch of Republicans vote to truly cut defense spending is the day those same Republicans retire from Congress or otherwise kiss their political careers goodbye. No way would they ever promise that.

425 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:54:26pm

re: #410 Decatur Deb

It’s, like, just the System Dude. The System.

Such a system, is self terminating.

What people fail to see is that democracy will fail and the Republic will fall under these circumstances.

By voting for theocracy, a democracy votes itself out of existence. A democracy must have citizens who value democracy.

By voting against science, a democracy assumes the hubris that the laws of nature are subject to popularity. Betting against them is lethal in a non-metaphoric sense.

427 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:55:38pm

re: #423 WindUpBird

They control congress and they also have the means and resources to convince rubes they don’t control congress ;-)

A lot of the hysteria also build membership. Which means record “profits” for the NRA. So every time they build up on the fear the more members they get.

428 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:56:22pm

Ugh, my typing stinks.

Back later.

429 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:56:37pm

re: #422 eclectic infidel
Yeah. Just scares me when people are willing to give up any rights. Hold fast your rights and demand more! But I figured you were just voicing exhaustion with the intentional confusing of unrelated ideas.

430 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:57:00pm

re: #421 Liberal Classic

Well, perhaps you could explain what you feel capitalism is efficient at doing.

431 joest73  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:57:09pm

Time to get the kiddos to bed…..

432 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:57:14pm

re: #420 Dark_Falcon

The Dems have a tendency to be fractious, true. But they’re not going to say much about this for tactical reasons: Most Democrats are trying to localize their elections and focus on what they have done for their locality. They don’t want to use out-of-state issues to avoid having the economy be the main issue.

The economy is better now than it was in GOP hands. If the Dems had been announcing this clearly all along, they would own this issue.

The numbers and the facts are:

GOP spends more than Dems for the last 60 years.

The bailout is working.

Bailouts take time to work.

GOP business as usual led to the crisis.

Further the economy is linked to other larger things. The GOP keeps us dependent on fossil fuels. Switching off of oil would create millions of jobs and keep hundreds of billions of dollars in America rather than flowing to other nations that hate us.

The Dems should own this issue, but as usual, they fail utterly to stand up.

433 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:57:53pm

re: #415 Shiplord Kirel

I’d like to see a hybrid of capitalism and democratic socialism. The current system we have is less than appealing.

434 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:58:14pm

re: #415 Shiplord Kirel


People will only tolerate so much abuse. Unregulated, laissez-faire capitalism is not a ticket to prosperity, it is a ticket to socialism or worse.

Full on balls to the wall socialism exists in very few countries in the western world - plenty of them have “mixed” economies though and they seem to be doing ok.
The scandinavian countries have quite leftist leanings and they seem to do ok for themselves.
Average wages in Germany with large unions and a semi-socialist economy are more favourable than American ones.

using socialism as the boogie man on aboard where a lot of us live in relatively left wing countries doesn’t hold too well.
Also - socialism, balls to the wall nationalise coal/gas/water/state mandated living wage is pretty much dead and will not be making a comeback north of the equator within the democracies.

435 RogueOne  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:58:19pm

re: #411 Jeff In Ohio

A higher standard then you and me? Sure. Other then that, i have no idea what the fuck you are trying to say.

The GOP already had a run at the cliff. In my reality based environment, that doesn’t get you second chance. But wtf, it’s America, and we got all those checks and balances and shit, so I’m happy to fuck with them for another 2 years while they demonstrate( like they did in the 90’s) what a bunch of clueless, head up their asses culture warriors they are.

Hopefully it will produce a party with real ideas instead of real douchebags.

If we have to beat each party into submission every two years before they get their heads out of their asses then so be it.

436 RogueOne  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:58:50pm

re: #427 Gus 802

A lot of the hysteria also build membership. Which means record “profits” for the NRA. So every time they build up on the fear the more members they get.

boy, where have I heard that before?

437 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:58:55pm

re: #413 Rightwingconspirator

Hi Ludwig,
Hmm. It’s a bit of a mobius question. But I’ll go GOP on those.

What do you mean?

Ohh yes, I see see your point, the GOP certainly has more cases of contemptible.

438 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:58:57pm

re: #435 RogueOne

If we have to beat each party into submission every two years before they get their heads out of their asses then so be it.

What does that even mean? How does electing first one party, then the other, beat anyone into submission? Submission to what?

439 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:59:01pm

re: #425 LudwigVanQuixote

Such a system, is self terminating.

What people fail to see is that democracy will fail and the Republic will fall under these circumstances.

By voting for theocracy, a democracy votes itself out of existence. A democracy must have citizens who value democracy.

By voting against science, a democracy assumes the hubris that the laws of nature are subject to popularity. Betting against them is lethal in a non-metaphoric sense.

Politics is a lot more elastic than Physics, that’s why we have lasted this long. You’ve pretty well got me convinced, however, that we are at the end of the Muddling-through Phase.

440 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:59:15pm

I own guns and I believe in the right of law-abiding citizens to do so. Still, I don’t belong to the NRA. Their constant insane fear-mongering is the reason. I probably know too much about how the UN and the courts really operate. The UN can have my guns as soon as their blue-helmets manage to get all the way to Lubbock without being shot, arrested, deported, or laughed out of the country. That is, it can’t happen in this universe.

441 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 5:59:32pm

re: #424 Lidane

The day that a bunch of Republicans vote to truly cut defense spending is the day those same Republicans retire from Congress or otherwise kiss their political careers goodbye. No way would they ever promise that.

Was a Republican that started all the cuts in the 80s and 90s. When I was a young Soldier they were closing posts, cutting personnel, and ending weapons programs. It all depends on how you present and time it.

442 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:01:44pm

re: #433 eclectic infidel

I’d like to see a hybrid of capitalism and democratic socialism. The current system we have is less than appealing.


democratic socialism? Do please explain.

443 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:02:26pm

re: #441 Escaped Hillbilly

Was a Republican that started all the cuts in the 80s and 90s. When I was a young Soldier they were closing posts, cutting personnel, and ending weapons programs. It all depends on how you present and time it.

there are lots of targeted cuts that can be made in defense and appropriations spending on defense matters.

they are unfortunately a kiss of death for any politician within their home state to vote to close un-needed installations or mothball cold-war era projects.

444 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:02:37pm

re: #441 Escaped Hillbilly

The BRAC was bipartisan.

After the fall of East Germany it became obvious that some weapon systems were not as important as once thought. With the fall of the USSR we encountered a (brief) “peace dividend” that allowed us to scale back our forces (e.g., Reagan’s 600 ship Navy was no longer needed.)

These cuts in new programs were welcomed by members of both parties. (As long as the cuts were not concentrated in any Rep’s district.)

445 Political Atheist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:02:53pm

re: #437 LudwigVanQuixote

And the two parties are the two sides of the strip. Separate, opposite in one dimension terribly parallel in the other. Yet equally shallow.

446 Cato the Elder  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:02:53pm

re: #418 LudwigVanQuixote

I no more look forward to “good people” screaming than I do to herpes.

All I want is a quiet apocalypse.

447 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:03:37pm

re: #442 Escaped Hillbilly

democratic socialism? Do please explain.

Pretty fucking easily.

People vote in things called “elections” - parties with socialist platforms stand - and if they win they get to implement left wing policies.

if they are unpopular they then lose and the policies are reveresed.

448 Liberal Classic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:04:11pm

re: #446 Cato the Elder

All I want is a quiet apocalypse.


Zombies don’t make much noise. They kinda mumble.

449 RogueOne  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:04:39pm

re: #438 Obdicut

What does that even mean? How does electing first one party, then the other, beat anyone into submission? Submission to what?

To our will. You know the whole “we the people” stuff? Do you ever pay attention? Who do you think is supposed to run this country?

450 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:05:22pm

re: #434 wozzablog

So, I’m using European style mixed economies as a boogie-man? I didn’t say anything of the kind. The context is obviously an end to capitalism as the inevitable result of a failure to mitigate its worst abuses. That is not at all what happened in, say, Sweden, which has an enormously strong private sector, Limbaugh-wing propaganda not withstanding.

451 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:05:27pm

re: #446 Cato the Elder

I no more look forward to “good people” screaming than I do to herpes.

All I want is a quiet apocalypse.

Bangers to the left, Whimperers to the right.

452 RogueOne  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:05:55pm

re: #441 Escaped Hillbilly

Was a Republican that started all the cuts in the 80s and 90s. When I was a young Soldier they were closing posts, cutting personnel, and ending weapons programs. It all depends on how you present and time it.

Yeah but they didn’t do it on their own. It was an unelected panel who made the decisions because our elected officials were too weak to do what needed to be done.

453 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:05:56pm

re: #447 wozzablog


apologies for the swear, it’s unwarranted.

454 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:06:36pm

re: #432 LudwigVanQuixote

The economy is better now than it was in GOP hands. If the Dems had been announcing this clearly all along, they would own this issue.

The numbers and the facts are:

GOP spends more than Dems for the last 60 years.

The bailout is working.

Bailouts take time to work.

GOP business as usual led to the crisis.

Further the economy is linked to other larger things. The GOP keeps us dependent on fossil fuels. Switching off of oil would create millions of jobs and keep hundreds of billions of dollars in America rather than flowing to other nations that hate us.

The Dems should own this issue, but as usual, they fail utterly to stand up.

Neither party would have acted on the Real Estate Bubble till it burst. The Dems would have ignored it for the same reason as the GOP: Closing the bar when the party is lively is an unpopular thing to do and parties want short-term popularity.

Moreover, the Dems helped set the table by pushing for low-income lending, thus causing the increase in sub-prime mortgages. When John McCain tried to slow down such lending and better regulate it, his plans were called racist.

And lastly; Yes, the TARP bailout did work. But the stimulus bill that followed did not work nearly well enough to justify itself.

The Democrats can make the argument you just made Ludwig, but the Republicans have plenty to come back with.

455 Political Atheist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:06:40pm

re: #440 Shiplord Kirel

Ditto. Second Amendment Foundation got some bucks for quite a while from me.

456 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:07:31pm

re: #449 RogueOne

To our will. You know the whole “we the people” stuff?

“Our” will? We don’t have a collective will. You and I disagree— so who are these politicians supposed to submit to, you, or me?

Do you ever pay attention? Who do you think is supposed to run this country?

Well, Rogue, I think we’re supposed to be a representative democracy, a republic, if you will, electing officials to take care of the business of governance while a judicial branch ensures constitutional adherence. So, there’s a political class that ‘runs’ the country, and we hold them responsible for that during elections. However, because of that judicial branch and the constitutional protections, we know that the ‘will of the people’ is not what runs this country, given that that would lead to oppression of the minority.

457 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:08:31pm

re: #456 Obdicut

I am Varek of Borg.
You answer to us.

458 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:08:47pm

re: #450 Shiplord Kirel

So, I’m using European style mixed economies as a boogie-man? I didn’t say anything of the kind. The context is obviously an end to capitalism as the inevitable result of a failure to mitigate its worst abuses. That is not at all what happened in, say, Sweden, which has an enormously strong private sector, Limbaugh-wing propaganda not withstanding.

I am sorry - i thought you were using the catch all definition of socialism - i.e “anything vaguely to the left of Obama”.

I should have credited you with better. i apologise.

459 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:08:52pm

re: #452 RogueOne

Yeah but they didn’t do it on their own. It was an unelected panel who made the decisions because our elected officials were too weak to do what needed to be done.

The BRAC process would put Byzantine eunuchs to shame. One large Air Force base that had a small NASA tenant organization became a large NASA base with a surprising number of Air Force tenants. Check one block for USAF.

460 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:08:54pm

re: #439 Decatur Deb

Politics is a lot more elastic than Physics, that’s why we have lasted this long. You’ve pretty well got me convinced, however, that we are at the end of the Muddling-through Phase.

Politics is elastic up until the finality of a gunshot, the reality of starvation and the imposition of tyranny. Then it becomes very simple and the comfortable illusions we embrace disappear.

On the path we are on now, the United States will produce less food than is needed to feed more than half of its population by 2100 (on a very optimistic estimate). It could reasonably be expected to get as bad as not enough food for one in four, or even one in six. As unlikely as one in two is one in ten.

Say it is one in three. What sort of government decides who the unlucky two out of three are?

Talk of democracy at such a point is ludicrous.

An analogy to this “will not to believe” is harbored by every obese smoker in his 50’s that my brother treats. They all think that heart attacks and strokes will not happen to them. They believe that somehow the laws of physics do not apply to them. It is as if a politician told them they could ban heart attacks and they would vote against them. Once the heart stops, such comfortable, but dangerous and silly, illusions die with the owner.

461 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:08:57pm

re: #451 Decatur Deb

Bangers to the left, Whimperers to the right.

Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

462 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:09:10pm

re: #413 Rightwingconspirator

mobius question

re: #446 Cato the Elder

All I want is a quiet apocalypse

extra points for quotability here today

463 Political Atheist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:10:20pm

re: #454 Dark_Falcon

Trouble is, too much to answer for too. Decades of little reductions (each) in regulations etc each to soften past recessions. Dems and the GOP. Like both pushing free trade and off-shoring. Bastards both did this economy in. All added up to what we got.

464 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:12:00pm

re: #440 Shiplord Kirel

I own guns and I believe in the right of law-abiding citizens to do so. Still, I don’t belong to the NRA. Their constant insane fear-mongering is the reason. I probably know too much about how the UN and the courts really operate. The UN can have my guns as soon as their blue-helmets manage to get all the way to Lubbock without being shot, arrested, deported, or laughed out of the country. That is, it can’t happen in this universe.

Well said.

There is no problem with a responsible gun owner owning a gun.

However, there is every problem in the world with a crazy scared person owning lethal weapons, or a “macho operator” needing to sop his failing manhood with a Darth Vader gun.

I would be all for treating guns like we treat cars.

Want a gun, you need a licence and a gun safety course and some form of insurance. A sensible owner has nothing to fear from this and all the whack jobs with fantasies about overthrowing the government can whine and use slingshots.

465 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:12:03pm

re: #459 Decatur Deb

The BRAC process would put Byzantine eunuchs to shame. One large Air Force base that had a small NASA tenant organization became a large NASA base with a surprising number of Air Force tenants. Check one block for USAF.

It’s still pretty Byzantine. Though some of it has been needed.

466 TedStriker  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:13:00pm

re: #353 Decatur Deb

Hazzard. Don’t confuse with Hazard, KY. No, don’t. Darn it.

re: #359 brownbagj

Wasn’t it supposed to be Hazard, Kentucky? Yeeehaaawww.

Actually, “Hazzard” was set in a generic Southern state, but is usually understood to be Georgia.

467 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:13:09pm

re: #447 wozzablog

Pretty fucking easily.

People vote in things called “elections” - parties with socialist platforms stand - and if they win they get to implement left wing policies.

if they are unpopular they then lose and the policies are reveresed.


Ok, I get what your saying. But you do know policies are never reversed. They just get layered over like bad wallpaper with more bureaucracy.

468 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:14:05pm

re: #459 Decatur Deb

Pharyngula has a story up about a little wasteful research funded by NCAR and the Office of Naval Research:

A bad paper has been published in PLoS One. It’s competently executed within its narrow scope, as near as I can tell, but its premise is simply to reach for more pretense of a scientific basis for biblical fairy tales by an old earth creationist. It should have been rejected for asking an imaginary question and answering it with a fantasy scenario.
…
The paper itself is a weird combination of transparency and disingenuousness. The title and the introduction are all about the dynamics of wind setdown, this phenomenon in which wind pressure can cause a drop in water level, but then throughout, the author describes the work exclusively in terms of explaining “a possible hydrodynamic explanation for Moses crossing the Red Sea”. [Link: scienceblogs.com…]
469 Lidane  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:14:06pm

re: #441 Escaped Hillbilly

Was a Republican that started all the cuts in the 80s and 90s. When I was a young Soldier they were closing posts, cutting personnel, and ending weapons programs. It all depends on how you present and time it.

True enough. However, imagine a bunch of Republicans now, with Obama in office, pushing for or seriously talking about deep cuts in military spending. Heads would explode all over the right-wing blogosphere.

470 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:14:54pm

re: #442 Escaped Hillbilly

democratic socialism? Do please explain.

Well, working within our own system of checks and balances, parties would be elected into power via their nominations and laws would be introduced such as nationalizing the power grid, creating national health care, promoting legislation that strengthens unions again, penalizing companies that refuse to hire Americans but willingly go offshore to hire workers in dirt poor countries. Just some examples. Would it be workable in this current political climate? No way. Too many still hear the word socialism and believe that anyone who wants to promote it is a fascist. I sometimes see the U.S. as a 2 year old that has learned to walk but not yet control its bowels and when it defecates on him/herself, it seeks to blame someone else, rather than itself. Hope the imagery wasn’t too creepy for you.

471 RogueOne  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:15:25pm

re: #456 Obdicut

“Our” will? We don’t have a collective will. You and I disagree— so who are these politicians supposed to submit to, you, or me?

Well, Rogue, I think we’re supposed to be a representative democracy, a republic, if you will, electing officials to take care of the business of governance while a judicial branch ensures constitutional adherence. So, there’s a political class that ‘runs’ the country, and we hold them responsible for that during elections. However, because of that judicial branch and the constitutional protections, we know that the ‘will of the people’ is not what runs this country, given that that would lead to oppression of the minority.

We do have a collective will and we show it every 2/4 years. One side wins and another loses, that’s the way it works. It goes in cycles. For the last 6 years republicans have been taking a beating thanks to their poor performance, now it’s the democrats turn.

What is it about elections that you seem to have a problem with, that everyone gets a say? It sounds like you’re saying you’re afraid of the majority and that you would prefer it if we just left all the decisions to a few unelected officials. To whom would you limit the right to vote if given the chance?

472 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:15:34pm

re: #460 LudwigVanQuixote

Politics is elastic up until the finality of a gunshot, the reality of starvation and the imposition of tyranny. Then it becomes very simple and the comfortable illusions we embrace disappear.

Well said.


On the path we are on now, the United States will produce less food than is needed to feed more than half of its population by 2100 (on a very optimistic estimate). It could reasonably be expected to get as bad as not enough food for one in four, or even one in six. As unlikely as one in two is one in ten.

…

You know I’ve been on your case a bit about this point. While I understand your concern I do think you’ve missed the point that on a caloric count basis current US agriculture produces an order of magnitude more product than is needed for the 310 million people in this country.

The Agriculture Industry of the US is what it is because it has been designed by major players in industry, over the past 80 years or so. That has had many negative side effects, but it has without a doubt also led to a massive increase in calorie production.

473 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:15:40pm

re: #467 Escaped Hillbilly

Ok, I get what your saying. But you do know policies are never reversed. They just get layered over like bad wallpaper with more bureaucracy.

Thats a problem with the quality of a body politic - not the political colours of the people making it up.

474 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:16:01pm

re: #465 Dark_Falcon

It’s still pretty Byzantine. Though some of it has been needed.

Yes, very much, but the process is a masterpiece of political/bureaucratic/military skullduggery. Last I saw, the Armor School was actually executing the move to Benning. I want the guy who justified that for my tax man.

475 palomino  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:16:23pm

And he’s probably gonna lose to the Dem candidate. Polls have him down 11 points right now.

Sad thing is, while the O’Donnell-Urquhart insane garbage doesn’t play in DE, it wouldn’t be much of a hindrance in much of the fantasyland of “real America.” Candidates in deep red states make similar comments (eg, Obama’s birth certificate, Islam is a “cult”, no separation of church and state, Dems are tyrants like [fill in the blank]) frequently these days and don’t worry about it biting them in the ass.

476 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:16:24pm

re: #464 LudwigVanQuixote

G-d created Man. Sam Colt made them equal.

477 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:16:42pm

re: #441 Escaped Hillbilly

Was a Republican that started all the cuts in the 80s and 90s. When I was a young Soldier they were closing posts, cutting personnel, and ending weapons programs. It all depends on how you present and time it.

An excellent point…

Of course, back then, cap and trade was a Reagan initiative to reduce acid rain also…

478 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:17:43pm

re: #468 jaunte

Pharyngula has a story up about a little wasteful research funded by NCAR and the Office of Naval Research:

Hey—that’s important, if you’re a Marine.

479 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:17:52pm

re: #471 RogueOne

We do have a collective will and we show it every 2/4 years. One side wins and another loses, that’s the way it works.

Meaning it’s not the collective will, but a subset.

It goes in cycles. For the last 6 years republicans have been taking a beating thanks to their poor performance, now it’s the democrats turn.


What is it about elections that you seem to have a problem with, that everyone gets a say?

Why are you saying i have a problem with elections? It’s a lie. Why lie?

It sounds like you’re saying you’re afraid of the majority and that you would prefer it if we just left all the decisions to a few unelected officials.

I’m not afraid of the majority. I know that unchecked majority rule means oppression of minorities. History knows this too. Do you?

To whom would you limit the right to vote if given the chance?

I’d actually expand it from the current base of people who have it.

480 palomino  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:18:14pm

For the upcoming GOP Congress to have real success, it will have to be willing to move a little to the center in the interests of compromise.

Does anyone here think that’s really likely?

481 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:18:32pm

re: #470 eclectic infidel

Well, working within our own system of checks and balances, parties would be elected into power via their nominations and laws would be introduced such as nationalizing the power grid, creating national health care, promoting legislation that strengthens unions again, penalizing companies that refuse to hire Americans but willingly go offshore to hire workers in dirt poor countries. Just some examples. Would it be workable in this current political climate? No way. Too many still hear the word socialism and believe that anyone who wants to promote it is a fascist. I sometimes see the U.S. as a 2 year old that has learned to walk but not yet control its bowels and when it defecates on him/herself, it seeks to blame someone else, rather than itself. Hope the imagery wasn’t too creepy for you.

Oh, and we also need our Federal and State govts to be transparent again. Regardless of pure capitalism or a hybrid, our govt needs to be accountable to us again, not special interests with corporate backing.

482 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:18:48pm

re: #480 palomino

For the upcoming GOP Congress to have real success, it will have to be willing to move a little to the center in the interests of compromise.

Does anyone here think that’s really likely?

No!

483 RogueOne  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:18:52pm

re: #466 talon_262

re: #359 brownbagj

Actually, “Hazzard” was set in a generic Southern state, but is usually understood to be Georgia.

There is only one hazzard county and it’s in KY, any others are just poseurs.

484 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:19:12pm

re: #452 RogueOne

Yeah but they didn’t do it on their own. It was an unelected panel who made the decisions because our elected officials were too weak to do what needed to be done.


Convenient. Look, you can’t say Conservatives can’t do something without committing career suicide, then claim it wasn’t only them. They did it. The committe investigated and presented their recommendations, but had no power save what the elected officials gave them. If it takes letting some appointed commission run with the ball, then lets by all means do so. And admit it can be done without committing political suicide. They can even brag about how much they “saved” in taxes by doing so and slant it as fiscal conservatism. The Liberals can brag to their base that they closed a bunch of “worthless” cold war relics. And everyone wins.

485 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:19:20pm

re: #458 wozzablog

I am sorry - i thought you were using the catch all definition of socialism - i.e “anything vaguely to the left of Obama”.

I should have credited you with better. i apologise.

Accepted, and think no more of it. I should have been more clear, given the atmosphere of the times.

You have hit on a vital point, though: We do not have more than a handful of real socialists, democratic or otherwise, in this country, yet one political party constantly vilifies the other as socialist or even Marxist. A very popular radio host here does not even refer to Obama by name anymore, he just calls him the “Marxist in the White House” or simply “the Marxist.” I tried to call him once and say that there were no Marxists in the White House unless the Chinese ambassador happened to be visting and I’m not even sure about him. The host hung up on me and made a grave pronouncement about fellow travelers now being found even here in freedom-loving west Texas.

This constant repetition causes a fantastic hoax, the Democrats=Reds meme, to become dogma for a large part of the electorate. To me, it is somehow of a piece with the same segment’s belief that the Earth is 6000 years old.

486 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:19:45pm

re: #470 eclectic infidel

Well, working within our own system of checks and balances, parties would be elected into power via their nominations and laws would be introduced such as nationalizing the power grid, creating national health care, promoting legislation that strengthens unions again, penalizing companies that refuse to hire Americans but willingly go offshore to hire workers in dirt poor countries. Just some examples. Would it be workable in this current political climate? No way. Too many still hear the word socialism and believe that anyone who wants to promote it is a fascist. I sometimes see the U.S. as a 2 year old that has learned to walk but not yet control its bowels and when it defecates on him/herself, it seeks to blame someone else, rather than itself. Hope the imagery wasn’t too creepy for you.

And the day I support any sort of nationalization will never come. Democratic Socialism equals stagnation and failure.

487 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:19:56pm

Since we’ve broached the subject of science, let me get off my chest that I am getting really fed up with Nature Publishing Group and their editorial slant, which could be summarized as simultaneously push controversy while white-washing the truth.

E.g., yesterday’s article:

Science and society: A Pacific divide

488 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:20:28pm

re: #480 palomino

For the upcoming GOP Congress to have real success, it will have to be willing to move a little to the center in the interests of compromise.

Does anyone here think that’s really likely?

It didn’t help when the democrats continually moved rightwards to try and get stuff through.

489 Vambo  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:20:30pm

But is he fiscally responsible?

I think I speak for all wingnutsfiscons when I say that’s more important is that we need to stop spending. Throw the Dems out, we can worry about separation of church and state, freedom of religion and civil rights later. It’s big government spending that will be the death of us all… big government tyranny is no biggie.
(/)

490 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:20:57pm

re: #485 Shiplord Kirel

“Fellow Traveller” is sweet. It gives the impression you’re actually going someplace.

491 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:21:11pm

re: #469 Lidane

True enough. However, imagine a bunch of Republicans now, with Obama in office, pushing for or seriously talking about deep cuts in military spending. Heads would explode all over the right-wing blogosphere.

The crazies can’t do it because they have painted themselves into a rhetorical corner. But any politician in the Republican party who hasn’t gone zinging off the edge could despite the heated climate of 2010. But it would take a LOT of guts.

492 Charles Johnson  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:21:47pm

re: #487 freetoken

Since we’ve broached the subject of science, let me get off my chest that I am getting really fed up with Nature Publishing Group and their editorial slant, which could be summarized as simultaneously push controversy while white-washing the truth.

E.g., yesterday’s article:

Science and society: A Pacific divide

“The limitations of knowledge.” The woo is strong in this article.

493 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:22:09pm

re: #472 freetoken

Well said.

You know I’ve been on your case a bit about this point. While I understand your concern I do think you’ve missed the point that on a caloric count basis current US agriculture produces an order of magnitude more product than is needed for the 310 million people in this country.

The Agriculture Industry of the US is what it is because it has been designed by major players in industry, over the past 80 years or so. That has had many negative side effects, but it has without a doubt also led to a massive increase in calorie production.

Well, this is where you fall short. We currently produce about 3x the calories needed for every American.

Reduce that output by a factor of ten (which is a mid range prediction) due to drought, climate shift and spread of pests, and you now have enough for less than one in three.

This does not take population growth into account or any floods of refugees from places like mexico when they get hit into account.

Suppose wonder plants and gen-engineering magically raised that value to 4x.

Reduce that by a factor of ten and you still only feed two out of five - assuming the population stays stable and no refugees come.

494 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:22:23pm

re: #486 Dark_Falcon

And the day I support any sort of nationalization will never come. Democratic Socialism equals stagnation and failure.

European nations beg to differ but that aside, the U.S. is young, and it hasn’t really been tried here yet. It should be, but it will come with time, and I don’t think the time is now.

495 122 Year Old Obama  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:22:40pm

re: #480 palomino

Nope. I actually see them pushing extremism harder than ever before.

496 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:22:57pm

re: #492 Charles

It touches on evolution and why supposedly so many “scientifically literate” Japanese and Chinese have questions about it.

However, the article doesn’t touch on a very important social factor: racism. Both Japanese and Chinese have a belief that they are “special”.

497 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:23:00pm

re: #476 PhillyPretzel

G-d created Man. Sam Colt made them equal.

A great tragedy yes.

I have often thought about how disgusting it is that someone great like JFK could be cut down by someone so worthless as Oswald.

498 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:23:48pm

re: #485 Shiplord Kirel

Accepted, and think no more of it. I should have been more clear, given the atmosphere of the times.

You have hit on a vital point, though: We do not have more than a handful of real socialists, democratic or otherwise, in this country, yet one political party constantly vilifies the other as socialist or even Marxist. A very popular radio host here does not even refer to Obama by name anymore, he just calls him the “Marxist in the White House” or simply “the Marxist.” I tried to call him once and say that there were no Marxists in the White House unless the Chinese ambassador happened to be visting and I’m not even sure about him. The host hung up on me and made a grave pronouncement about fellow travelers now being found even here in freedom-loving west Texas.

This constant repetition causes a fantastic hoax, the Democrats=Reds meme, to become dogma for a large part of the electorate. To me, it is somehow of a piece with the same segment’s belief that the Earth is 6000 years old.

It’s all fear my friend. All of it - not just the new earth shit “jesus is coming back, look busy”, but its exactly the same mentality that swept aside church/state to put God on the money and in the pledge of allegiance.

499 RogueOne  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:23:49pm

re: #496 freetoken

It touches on evolution and why supposedly so many “scientifically literate” Japanese and Chinese have questions about it.

However, the article doesn’t touch on a very important social factor: racism. Both Japanese and Chinese have a belief that they are “special”.

Seems to be a lot of that going around.

500 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:24:17pm

re: #490 Decatur Deb

“Fellow Traveller” is sweet. It gives the impression you’re actually going someplace.

It’s one of my favourite political terms, full stop.

501 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:24:39pm

re: #487 freetoken

Since we’ve broached the subject of science, let me get off my chest that I am getting really fed up with Nature Publishing Group and their editorial slant, which could be summarized as simultaneously push controversy while white-washing the truth.

E.g., yesterday’s article:

Science and society: A Pacific divide

They’re out to sell magazines, not tell the truth. I don’t like it, but I’m used it. The only way to combat that is to stand firm behind the facts and call the purveyor of woo a purveyor of woo.

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:24:59pm

re: #245 eclectic infidel

Hi SFZ, how are you these days?

Hanging in. Some family stuff.

Got your message, will be getting back.

503 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:25:04pm

re: #499 RogueOne

Seems to be a lot of that going around.

Anyone who lives in Japan eventually comes up against the truth.

504 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:25:21pm

re: #501 Dark_Falcon

This is Nature. It’s supposed to be better than that.

505 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:25:28pm

re: #253 Gus 802

Line ‘em up! Get them ready to work on the road crews. I got my beard now so I’m read to go John Galt Marx.

//

Who the hell was John Marx?

506 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:26:11pm

JasonA, you still here?

507 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:27:01pm

re: #274 Liberal Classic

People do bad things. Capitalism is about the exchange of goods and services.

A good distinction, but as such it should also be remembered that capitalism is neither good nor bad in a moral sense.

508 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:27:02pm

re: #494 eclectic infidel

European nations beg to differ but that aside, the U.S. is young, and it hasn’t really been tried here yet. It should be, but it will come with time, and I don’t think the time is now.


European nations haven’t been successful with it long enough to convince me that we ought to change to emulate them.

509 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:27:33pm

re: #501 Dark_Falcon

They’re out to sell magazines, not tell the truth.

Yes they are, and while that is no sin I still believe the best thing for academic publications is to be done on a non-profit basis. Even the journals of the various science professional societies suffer from the need to sell, but at least they seem to reign in the worst cases.

NPG is not the worst of the commercial publishers, by far. Yet because Nature is held up as a pinnacle of scientific publication I think they ought to be held to a higher standard.

510 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:27:34pm

re: #503 freetoken

Anyone who lives in Japan eventually comes up against the truth.

A Japanese guy was annoying me with criticism of US culture at one point. So I started talking about Kenji Nakagami, the burakumin poet. He then ignored me for the rest of the evening. I was glad.

That’s changed a lot in the past decade. I’m glad of that, too.

511 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:27:43pm

re: #505 SanFranciscoZionist

Who the hell was John Marx?

Richard Marx’s cousin. He’s till right here - waitin’.

512 Wozza Matter?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:28:36pm

anyway, g’night peeps.

513 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:28:41pm

re: #280 joest73

And that resulted in the early 90’s recession.

Did TIME have a cover like this for the Obama recession?

That would be the Obama recession that happened after the economy plummeted like a rock weighted down with a rock on Barack Obama’s watch…wait…something’s wrong there…

No. They didn’t have a cover like that. TIME Magazine sucks. Nu, move on.

514 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:29:11pm

re: #497 LudwigVanQuixote

A great tragedy yes.

I have often thought about how disgusting it is that someone great like JFK could be cut down by someone so worthless as Oswald.

Hi You..Hope today finds you well

515 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:29:43pm

re: #508 Escaped Hillbilly

European nations haven’t been successful with it long enough to convince me that we ought to change to emulate them.

I think the U.S. will eventually form its own brand of capitalism infused with socialism. I wish I had a longer lifespan, you know?

516 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:29:55pm

re: #514 HoosierHoops

Hi You..Hope today finds you well

It does thank you! And you?

517 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:30:44pm

re: #507 SanFranciscoZionist

A good distinction, but as such it should also be remembered that capitalism is neither good nor bad in a moral sense.

Money is not the root of all evil??

Hi hi btw!

518 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:30:50pm

re: #510 Obdicut

They have changed, but the Japanese still have trouble accepting that they are mostly displaced Koreans.

Likewise, Chinese popular belief has been that they were separate from the West and they developed from a different line of hominids. It’s hard to sell them on the idea that they are descended from the same ancestors as the rest of us, only a couple of thousand generations apart.

519 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:31:25pm

re: #503 freetoken

Anyone who lives in Japan eventually comes up against the truth.

I’m very disappointed in Japan today..Why not take in Paris Hilton and keep her? Sending her back to Hollywood is a slap in the face to America…
///

520 RogueOne  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:31:40pm

re: #511 wozzablog

Richard Marx’s cousin. He’s till right here - waitin’.

I could not remember his name for the life of me and I was too afraid to google dick marx.

521 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:31:59pm

re: #515 eclectic infidel
Yes. Feel that way all the time.

522 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:32:08pm

re: #368 Varek Raith

LOL.
$532…
LOL.

Hey. That’s more than a dollar a day.

523 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:32:28pm

re: #509 freetoken

Yes they are, and while that is no sin I still believe the best thing for academic publications is to be done on a non-profit basis. Even the journals of the various science professional societies suffer from the need to sell, but at least they seem to reign in the worst cases.

NPG is not the worst of the commercial publishers, by far. Yet because Nature is held up as a pinnacle of scientific publication I think they ought to be held to a higher standard.

It’s weird for a science publication to throw this in at the third paragraph, and then go ahead and make conclusions based on the study:

The results are not conclusive. Far from being rigorous, the survey sampled countries unevenly, with thousands of respondents in the United States and several European countries, 1,195 in Japan and just 269 in China. The respondents were self-selected, so some subsets of readers may simply have bypassed the questionnaire.
524 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:32:40pm

re: #518 freetoken

Not to mention the Turkik influence of the Mongol conquest of China.

525 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:33:16pm

re: #516 LudwigVanQuixote

It does thank you! And you?

It was my Birthday yesterday and living in a Hotel for a few more days till I move..Life is sweet Ludwid and very busy

526 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:33:29pm

re: #522 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey. That’s more than a dollar a day.

It’s $1.45 a day!

527 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:33:53pm

re: #522 SanFranciscoZionist

For some of the people whining, it’s the price of one tire.

528 PhillyPretzel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:35:09pm

I got to run. Very close lightning and thunder.

529 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:35:13pm

re: #517 marjoriemoon

Money is not the root of all evil??

Hi hi btw!

Well everyone knows that to have a woman, it takes time and money.

Wo = t * $

but we also know that time is money, i.e. t=$.

So,

Wo = $^2

but we also know that money is th root of all evil, $ = Ev^1/2

Thus,

Wo = (Ev^1/2)^2

or,

Wo = Ev

and we have shown mathematically that women are evil.

530 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:35:34pm

re: #305 eclectic infidel

What a bunch of capitalist pigs. Yup, it’s all American to slash wages, cut pensions, and threaten with lay offs. Behavior like this may one day spell the collapse of capitalism as we know it, replaced with a socialist-controlled capitalist society.

Youtube Video

(Apologies for low image quality)

MINE MINE MINE ALL MINE!

531 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:35:36pm

re: #525 HoosierHoops

It was my Birthday yesterday and living in a Hotel for a few more days till I move..Life is sweet Ludwid and very busy

Mazel Tov!

532 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:36:07pm

re: #400 joest73

Maybe a little… so the economy started to turn at the end of GWB’s second term. Did he go out and give speeches on how the Democratic congress was at fault?

Er...

533 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:36:10pm

re: #527 jaunte

For some of the people whining, it’s the price of one tire.

A $500 tire! Crazy. I’ve bitched about tires costing over $100 apiece.

534 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:36:22pm

re: #529 LudwigVanQuixote

Well everyone knows that to have a woman, it takes time and money.

Wo = t * $

but we also know that time is money, i.e. t=$.

So,

Wo = $^2

but we also know that money is th root of all evil, $ = Ev^1/2

Thus,

Wo = (Ev^1/2)^2

or,

Wo = Ev

and we have shown mathematically that women are evil.

But that is OK because men are stupid.

535 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:36:37pm

re: #523 jaunte

I guess we should be glad that they are willing to bring forward the basis for what they write.

Still, it seems that Nature is going the way of New Scientist.

536 Varek Raith  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:36:46pm

re: #533 eclectic infidel

A $500 tire! Crazy. I’ve bitched about tires costing over $100 apiece.

Do you drive overly expensive sports/luxury cars???
;)

537 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:37:28pm

re: #523 jaunte
At least they didn’t try to hide that fact. Quite a few studies have simply left out the sampling errors inherent in order to present their findings as more scientific. Still sloppy of them, just always feel the need to do that, balance… heh Must be a character flaw.

538 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:37:48pm

re: #536 Varek Raith

Heh, Z-rated tires cost!

539 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:39:13pm

re: #509 freetoken

Yes they are, and while that is no sin I still believe the best thing for academic publications is to be done on a non-profit basis. Even the journals of the various science professional societies suffer from the need to sell, but at least they seem to reign in the worst cases.

NPG is not the worst of the commercial publishers, by far. Yet because Nature is held up as a pinnacle of scientific publication I think they ought to be held to a higher standard.

I don’t understand what is so bad about that article. The one on the Pacific divide is commenting that there is doubt about evolution in china and Japan, based on a survey they questioned the methodology of. It is certainly a fluff bit, but it hardly is pushing “teach the controversy.

Also, did you see, my agriculture post that answered your critique?

540 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:39:13pm

re: #476 PhillyPretzel

G-d created Man. Sam Colt made them equal.

The way my dad says it, it’s “God created ‘em male and female. Sam Colt made ‘em equal.”

This is my father’s version of feminism.

541 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:39:30pm

re: #529 LudwigVanQuixote
That’s old and insulting.

542 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:40:13pm

re: #529 LudwigVanQuixote

Well everyone knows that to have a woman, it takes time and money.

Wo = t * $

but we also know that time is money, i.e. t=$.

So,

Wo = $^2

but we also know that money is th root of all evil, $ = Ev^1/2

Thus,

Wo = (Ev^1/2)^2

or,

Wo = Ev

and we have shown mathematically that women are evil.

{{ludwig}}

And no one told me there’d be math!

543 simoom  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:40:19pm

Jon Stewart on O’Reilly’s show – O’Reilly wonders why he’s no longer a major focus of the left’s criticism:

Media Matters Video
Stewart: Listen, you’re very bright man. You went to Harvard. You’re an elite. You’ve been overtaken by a more extreme version of you. You’re like Fox 1.0. You’re the beta version. Fox 2.0 has jumped over you to an extent I don’t think you could ever dream of and, quite frankly, I think you fear. I think deep down inside, you can’t beleive what you’ve unleashed. … You’re – on this network – you’re left wing.
544 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:40:24pm

re: #536 Varek Raith

Do you drive overly expensive sports/luxury cars???
;)

There are some cars you cannot drive to the Tire Barn..It’s against the Law..

545 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:40:34pm

re: #517 marjoriemoon

Money is not the root of all evil??

Hi hi btw!

Sure it is, but it’s evil no matter how you move it around.

Hi back!

546 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:41:17pm

re: #524 Obdicut

Not to mention the Turkik influence of the Mongol conquest of China.

Lots of different “Chinese” groups. We tend to lump them all as “Chinese” but that is true only in our view of modern nationality via a state.

547 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:42:09pm

re: #543 simoom

bwahahaha…

548 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:42:27pm

re: #532 SanFranciscoZionist

Er...

Sorry, that didn’t format quite right. Yes, Bush went out and blamed Democrats in Congress. From the Rose Garden.

Nor do I particularly hold this against him. What I think is moronic is the fantasy that he didn’t make such speeches.

549 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:42:36pm

re: #541 Escaped Hillbilly

That’s old and insulting.

Wow… Dude, I mean no offence with it. Clearly, tongue in cheek. If anyone here thinks I am not rather strongly feminist, they haven’t read anything I tend to write.

550 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:43:01pm

re: #542 marjoriemoon

{{ludwig}}

And no one told me there’d be math!

I adore you Marjoree.

551 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:43:06pm

re: #536 Varek Raith

Do you drive overly expensive sports/luxury cars???
;)

I’ve never, ever owned a brand spanking new car. And the cars I’ve owned have never been luxury, although the Nissan Maxima was rather cool with the Bose stereo, leather seats and sun roof.

552 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:43:08pm

re: #533 eclectic infidel

A $500 tire! Crazy. I’ve bitched about tires costing over $100 apiece.


Um, our helicopter tires cost roughly $200 purchased from those sleazy contractors through overly bureaucratic purchasing program. They are manufactured to very tough standards and are ordered one at a time. Think $500 should buy you a Space Shuttle tire at least.

553 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:43:39pm

re: #543 simoom

O’Reilly sure changed the subject quickly.

554 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:43:48pm

re: #543 simoom

Jon Stewart on O’Reilly’s show – O’Reilly wonders why he’s no longer a major focus of the left’s criticism:

[Link: mediamatters.org…]

lol I guess he has a point, but it sure is scary.

555 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:44:04pm

re: #540 SanFranciscoZionist

The way my dad says it, it’s “God created ‘em male and female. Sam Colt made ‘em equal.”

This is my father’s version of feminism.

I think that is my father’s as well. I keep meaning to ask him what he thinks about female sports broadcasters.

556 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:45:21pm

re: #539 LudwigVanQuixote

It avoids the obvious reasons why they respond in such a manner. I don’t know if it’s ignorance or deliberate. Furthermore, stuff like this:

Wu Yishan, a chief engineer at the Institute of Scientific and Technical Information of China in Beijing, says that the evolution question probably also triggered a natural, and healthy, scepticism in Chinese respondents:

I don’t think there’s any natural or healthy skepticism to be had about evolution, personally.

557 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:45:41pm

re: #549 LudwigVanQuixote
Insulting to our intelligence and sense of humor. Oooold. Like middle school old.

558 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:46:30pm

re: #556 Obdicut

It’s white-washing.

559 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:47:16pm

re: #504 Obdicut

This is Nature. It’s supposed to be better than that.

I know, that’s why I said they should be called on it. The only way to keep something or someone at a higher standard is to enforce that higher standard.

560 freetoken  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:47:26pm

This whole post-modernism deconstruction of science and positivism is going to cost Western civilization.

561 Tigger2005  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:48:16pm

re: #18 darthstar

What was it Keith Olbermann said last night? “These people have a 7th grade understanding of the constitution.” Then he apologized to his 7th grade teacher.

7th grade? That’s being extremely generous.

562 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:48:58pm

re: #549 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow… Dude, I mean no offence with it. Clearly, tongue in cheek. If anyone here thinks I am not rather strongly feminist, they haven’t read anything I tend to write.

Beside, I’ve learned to embrace my dark side.

Image: darth450.jpg

563 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:49:03pm

Changing topics a little I have broken down and decided to add a more elegant weapon to my collection.

[Link: www.artmuseum.gov.mo…]

I am not getting this one exactly, with the full san mai construction.

I am however commissioning the Zheng Wu forge to make one that has an 80 cm blade of t-10 tool steel, differentially hardened, with a 28 cm grip, and a heavy wood grip core to produce a point of balance about 5 cm from the guard.

I will have the fittings in royal blue and a satin finish on the blade.

564 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:49:06pm

re: #552 Escaped Hillbilly

Um, our helicopter tires cost roughly $200 purchased from those sleazy contractors through overly bureaucratic purchasing program. They are manufactured to very tough standards and are ordered one at a time. Think $500 should buy you a Space Shuttle tire at least.

I was really just throwing a $500 number out, but it turns out $551 will buy you a single Yokohama Parada Spec-X 295/35:[Link: www.wheelsnext.com…]

565 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:50:05pm

re: #556 Obdicut

It avoids the obvious reasons why they respond in such a manner. I don’t know if it’s ignorance or deliberate. Furthermore, stuff like this:

I don’t think there’s any natural or healthy skepticism to be had about evolution, personally.

I absolutely agree that there is no healthy skepticism to be had. It is possible I misread the article, but I did not get the impression they thought it was healthy either.

566 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:50:57pm

re: #562 marjoriemoon

Beside, I’ve learned to embrace my dark side.

Image: darth450.jpg

That photo is brilliant!

567 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:51:23pm

re: #560 freetoken

This whole post-modernism deconstruction of science and positivism is going to cost Western civilization.

Well said!

568 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:51:27pm

re: #551 eclectic infidel

I’ve never, ever owned a brand spanking new car. And the cars I’ve owned have never been luxury, although the Nissan Maxima was rather cool with the Bose stereo, leather seats and sun roof.

When I was young 20’s..Married and pretty dang poor..We had an old blue boxy Toyota piece of crap as the family car…Honest to God I was driving on I-80 in the Bay Area in huge traffic and the stick shift broke in half in my hand..
That’s right..I’m holding the stick shift in my hand wondering WTF am I going to do! I ended up stalling in traffic cause I couldn’t shift the effen Toyota.. I hated that commute…

569 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:51:28pm

We lost my MIL2 early yesterday morning.

My husband is sad. Me too.

570 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:51:36pm

re: #563 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow, amazing sword. Do you display them? I would be worried about some yahoo taking off the wall and playing around.

571 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:51:51pm

re: #557 Escaped Hillbilly

Insulting to our intelligence and sense of humor. Oooold. Like middle school old.

Dude ok… geeze… You can’t bat 1000 with every joke.

572 jaunte  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:52:29pm

re: #569 SanFranciscoZionist

SFZ, I’m sorry for your loss.

573 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:52:38pm

re: #564 jaunte
Anyone who drives something like that needs to be paying A LOT more taxes. I’ve never gotten the obsession with over the top cars. Ridiculous. Whatever turns you on I guess.

574 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:52:46pm

re: #572 jaunte

SFZ, I’m sorry for your loss.

Thanks.

575 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:52:50pm

re: #565 LudwigVanQuixote

My main objection to it is that they didn’t come to the very obvious and well-known conclusion that Japanese and Chinese reject a lot of evolutionary theory because it doesn’t fall into line with their ideas on race.

My secondary objection is that it lets statements like the above go unchallenged, and uncriticized.

576 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:54:10pm

re: #575 Obdicut

My main objection to it is that they didn’t come to the very obvious and well-known conclusion that Japanese and Chinese reject a lot of evolutionary theory because it doesn’t fall into line with their ideas on race.

My secondary objection is that it lets statements like the above go unchallenged, and uncriticized.

Vaguely related—can anyone here explain to me the distinction/connection between Cro-Magnon and modern humans?

577 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:55:27pm

re: #563 LudwigVanQuixote

Changing topics a little I have broken down and decided to add a more elegant weapon to my collection.

[Link: www.artmuseum.gov.mo…]

I am not getting this one exactly, with the full san mai construction.

I am however commissioning the Zheng Wu forge to make one that has an 80 cm blade of t-10 tool steel, differentially hardened, with a 28 cm grip, and a heavy wood grip core to produce a point of balance about 5 cm from the guard.

I will have the fittings in royal blue and a satin finish on the blade.

Nice, very good weapon indeed. In I had the money for something Royal Blue, though, I’d order one of the Centennial Editions of the M1911 from Colt. Beautiful and deadly in its own way as well.

578 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:55:32pm

re: #568 HoosierHoops

When I was young 20’s..Married and pretty dang poor..We had an old blue boxy Toyota piece of crap as the family car…Honest to God I was driving on I-80 in the Bay Area in huge traffic and the stick shift broke in half in my hand..
That’s right..I’m holding the stick shift in my hand wondering WTF am I going to do! I ended up stalling in traffic cause I couldn’t shift the effen Toyota.. I hated that commute…

Daaaaamn.

I80 these days is viciously congested, sometimes dangerous.. I880 is like the Road Warrior, sometimes.

579 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:55:41pm

re: #297 Killgore Trout

The economy is growing slowly and as I recall that is part of the plan. Remember near the beginning of the crisis and stimulus there was a lot of talk about hyperinflation? Mostly from the wingnuts and Paulians but we don’t hear much about it anymore. The economy is growing slowly which gives the Fed time to reduce the money supply. If the economy grows too fast the Fed can’t sell enough treasuries to sop up the extra liquidity.

Larry is out of there. I think they have done an over all very good job with what they were handed in 2009.

580 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:56:06pm

re: #569 SanFranciscoZionist

We lost my MIL2 early yesterday morning.

My husband is sad. Me too.

It is a great lose..I hope you find comfort and healing…And she will always bring joy to your heart from the memories she engraved upon your life

581 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:56:47pm

re: #571 LudwigVanQuixote

My standards are flexible. Same joke tomorrow…?

582 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:57:39pm

re: #569 SanFranciscoZionist

We lost my MIL2 early yesterday morning.

My husband is sad. Me too.

Aloha and God’s grace for the Hawaiian half of their equation. Will you go back for the funeral?

583 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:57:42pm

re: #570 prairiefire

Wow, amazing sword. Do you display them? I would be worried about some yahoo taking off the wall and playing around.

Actually, I have been fencing for many years, done kendo and taken up some Tai Chi Quan.

As to letting someone take it off the wall, this will not be on the wall, and it will not be touched by anyone who does not know what they are looking at.

A jian is a very, very effective sword and the modern T-10 steel will make it substantially more flexible, durable and edgy than its historical counterparts. We can talk about bainite and martinsite if you wish, but the bottom line is that metallurgy has figured out by science what the ancient forge masters figured out by trial and error and then surpassed it (if it is forged properly by people who know what they are doing).

Simply put, that blade could take a hand or a head or and arm without difficulty.

So in short, this gets treated the same way one would treat a gun. In some ways it is more lethal because people will not respect it as much, so only those I know well and trust will be allowed to touch it.

584 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:58:01pm

re: #575 Obdicut

My main objection to it is that they didn’t come to the very obvious and well-known conclusion that Japanese and Chinese reject a lot of evolutionary theory because it doesn’t fall into line with their ideas on race.

My secondary objection is that it lets statements like the above go unchallenged, and uncriticized.

Fair enough.

585 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:58:49pm

re: #569 SanFranciscoZionist

We lost my MIL2 early yesterday morning.

My husband is sad. Me too.

Oh no! I’m sorry to hear hon.

586 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 6:59:47pm

re: #575 Obdicut

My main objection to it is that they didn’t come to the very obvious and well-known conclusion that Japanese and Chinese reject a lot of evolutionary theory because it doesn’t fall into line with their ideas on race.

My secondary objection is that it lets statements like the above go unchallenged, and uncriticized.

It’s not really about ideas on race. It’s that they know if they call China on that the Chinese reaction will be twofold:

1. China will indeed call their article racist. Nature can refute that charge but playing the Race Card almost always damages the party it is played against no matter what they do.

2. This is even bigger. If Nature calls China out, China will simply shut Nature out. So any stories of China will see Nature reduced to buying someone else’s reporting. They want to preserve their access.

587 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:01:12pm

re: #576 SanFranciscoZionist

Vaguely related—can anyone here explain to me the distinction/connection between Cro-Magnon and modern humans?

A good shave.

588 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:01:56pm

re: #563 LudwigVanQuixote

Changing topics a little I have broken down and decided to add a more elegant weapon to my collection.

[Link: www.artmuseum.gov.mo…]

I am not getting this one exactly, with the full san mai construction.

I am however commissioning the Zheng Wu forge to make one that has an 80 cm blade of t-10 tool steel, differentially hardened, with a 28 cm grip, and a heavy wood grip core to produce a point of balance about 5 cm from the guard.

I will have the fittings in royal blue and a satin finish on the blade.

Nice.

While camping last weekend, I found I needed something a wee bit more day-to-day friendly. The folder I had just wasn’t “cutting it” anymore.

I ordered this: [Link: www.crkt.com…] as an EDC pocket knife. Nothing fancy, but it should be a nice solid working blade.

589 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:02:48pm

re: #569 SanFranciscoZionist

{{{SFZ}}}

590 Escaped Hillbilly  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:02:48pm

SanFran, sorry to hear. Hope you have friends and family near to help you all through.

591 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:03:53pm

re: #569 SanFranciscoZionist

We lost my MIL2 early yesterday morning.

My husband is sad. Me too.

tanuach beshalom al mishkava

592 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:04:05pm

Let’s all relax with some Telly Savalas…


Youtube Video
593 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:04:16pm

re: #576 SanFranciscoZionist

Vaguely related—can anyone here explain to me the distinction/connection between Cro-Magnon and modern humans?

I think… we come from the same genetic family, the Great Apes.

594 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:06:55pm

re: #593 marjoriemoon

I think… we come from the same genetic family, the Great Apes.

My Human Paleontology stuff is decades old, but even then the “Lumpers” wing wanted to pull Cro-Magnon straight into Moderns. (The radicals also thought the Neanderthals would look good on an NFL line.)

595 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:07:49pm

re: #588 wlewisiii

Nice.

While camping last weekend, I found I needed something a wee bit more day-to-day friendly. The folder I had just wasn’t “cutting it” anymore.

I ordered this: [Link: www.crkt.com…] as an EDC pocket knife. Nothing fancy, but it should be a nice solid working blade.

That is a nice little blade. I don’t do so much camping that would require something like that, but I can see why it would be good to have one.

596 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:07:49pm

re: #576 SanFranciscoZionist

Vaguely related—can anyone here explain to me the distinction/connection between Cro-Magnon and modern humans?

Modern Humans = Cro-Magnon. [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

597 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:08:03pm

re: #576 SanFranciscoZionist

They created art with their cave paintings. They were further removed from our African origins by time and geography, being found in Western Europe/France. they were quite likely exhibiting more physical traits of a modern Western European in less melanin and lighter eye pigmentation.
They are from 35,000 BC, so it is easier to start to dissect the human migration through the early bronze age cultures that followed.

598 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:08:07pm

re: #576 SanFranciscoZionist

Vaguely related—can anyone here explain to me the distinction/connection between Cro-Magnon and modern humans?

cro-magnons are genetically the same as us “modern” humans. the term refers to the homo sapiens sapiens population of europe during the ice aga from about 45 thousand bc to the end of the ice age at about 10 thousand bc

599 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:08:37pm

re: #569 SanFranciscoZionist

We lost my MIL2 early yesterday morning.

My husband is sad. Me too.

I am so sorry.

600 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:09:53pm

re: #596 wlewisiii

Modern Humans = Cro-Magnon. [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I have heard that the early humans who came out of Africa interbred with the so called Cro-magnon in Europe.

Unfortunately, the worst sorts of people take this hypothesis and make up terrible things with it.

601 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:11:33pm

the depth in time and circumstances of the separation of humans into “races” is interesting: about 60 thousand bc, humans started to move out of africa and the levant eastwards along the souther coast of asia. they arrived at australia and also northern china at about 40 thousand bc. it seems that there might still have been homo erectus populations in china at that time

humans started to move from the levant into ice age europe at about 45 thousand bc. there were of course neanderthals there at that time. neanderthals are the only species of human that were not native to africa

602 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:11:38pm

re: #582 prairiefire

Aloha and God’s grace for the Hawaiian half of their equation. Will you go back for the funeral?

Doesn’t seem there’s going to be one. MIL1 is going to stay with SIL. Taking the ashes with her.

603 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:12:21pm

re: #600 LudwigVanQuixote

I have heard that the early humans who came out of Africa interbred with the so called Cro-magnon in Europe.

the cro-magnon came from africa via the levant

604 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:12:51pm

re: #583 LudwigVanQuixote

How many times have you watched Tarantino’s Kill Bill Vol.s 1 & 2? : )

605 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:13:29pm

re: #594 Decatur Deb

My Human Paleontology stuff is decades old, but even then the “Lumpers” wing wanted to pull Cro-Magnon straight into Moderns. (The radicals also thought the Neanderthals would look good on an NFL line.)

I’m pretty sure my first husband was one.

606 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:13:31pm

re: #600 LudwigVanQuixote

I have heard that the early humans who came out of Africa interbred with the so called Cro-magnon in Europe.

Unfortunately, the worst sorts of people take this hypothesis and make up terrible things with it.

The only reason they interbred was Cro-Magnon woman were smoking hot..Often prancing around the Playboy Cave 30,000 years ago.

607 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:14:10pm

re: #594 Decatur Deb

My Human Paleontology stuff is decades old, but even then the “Lumpers” wing wanted to pull Cro-Magnon straight into Moderns. (The radicals also thought the Neanderthals would look good on an NFL line.)

Went to an exhibit once where the museum had taken one of the Neanderthal figures from the dioramas, dressed him in jeans, a jacket and a ball cap, and casually placed him by one of the walls, outside the display. He wasn’t that noticeable.

608 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:16:20pm

re: #607 SanFranciscoZionist

Went to an exhibit once where the museum had taken one of the Neanderthal figures from the dioramas, dressed him in jeans, a jacket and a ball cap, and casually placed him by one of the walls, outside the display. He wasn’t that noticeable.

Disneyland Right?

609 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:16:50pm

re: #608 HoosierHoops

Disneyland Right?

California Academy of Sciences.

:)

610 engineer cat  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:17:13pm

pre 60 thousand bc - modern humans in africa and levant, neanderthals in europe, some homo erectus elsewhere

45 thousand - 10 thousand bc - humans all over old world. paleolithic technology

10 thousand - 6 thousand mesolithic era in europe. stone tools, no agriculture, but ice age big game gone. technological innovations include bow and arrow and domestication of the dog

6 thousand - 3500 bc - agriculture spreads through europe from the southeast to the northwest

4000 - 1000 bronze age spreads through europe

1000 - 0 bc - iron age

611 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:17:26pm

re: #606 HoosierHoops

No, you are thinking of Raquel.

612 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:18:07pm

re: #604 prairiefire

How many times have you watched Tarantino’s Kill Bill Vol.s 1 & 2? : )

Well for those who are curious about what modern metals can do in the hands of a master smith, check this out.

Youtube Video

I can not afford one of these l6 bainite blades, and the fact is that a master smith starting with 1065 will out do a novice starting with l6 or T-10 steel. However, this is the upper end of the possible.

613 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:18:14pm

re: #607 SanFranciscoZionist

Went to an exhibit once where the museum had taken one of the Neanderthal figures from the dioramas, dressed him in jeans, a jacket and a ball cap, and casually placed him by one of the walls, outside the display. He wasn’t that noticeable.

Everyone on the inside of a business hates the movies made about it (e.g. naval aviators laugh at Top Gun). For anthropologists, that’s Quest for Fire.

614 lostlakehiker  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:18:30pm

re: #249 Obdicut

Chemicals plants are some of the best examples of this. There are refineries and other plants that once employed thousands of workers that now literally get by with about a dozen workers.

This is a large reason for the contraction of the middle class, or the upper lower class, whatever way you want to look at it. Automation replaces skilled and semi-skilled labor, and the service jobs that are available in greater numbers pay much less and have far less job security and portability.

On the face of it, this would make the economy stronger. Being able to get more work done with less time and effort is really the only way the economy can grow. We cannot forever put more time and effort into it. There are only so many hours in the day.

All these people who don’t have jobs at the chemical plant are still bright, able, willing workers. When the dust settles, they’ll have found something else to do that has real value. The economy will get all the chemicals it used to, and as a bonus, whatever work they now do. More goods and services from the same inputs of labor and materials. This can’t be bad.

What we’re seeing, in part, is Joseph Schumpeter’s wave of creative destruction. Old ways of doing things have become outmoded, some of them. The factories that make Edison light bulbs go dark. New factories make LED lightbulbs, and they’re profitable, but an LED lightbulb lasts much, much longer and uses about ten percent as much electricity. There are fewer jobs for those who replace lightbulbs, fewer jobs for those who make them, fewer jobs in retail, moving them off the shelves and restocking, and so on. All of this, too, is ultimately to the good. But ultimately is the catch. While the change is under way, it’s rather disruptive.

615 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:19:04pm

re: #603 engineer dog

Indeed. All humans came from Africa ultimately. At least that is my understanding.

616 simoom  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:19:24pm

re: #149 wrenchwench

The “GOP Pledge to America” is lame.

It’s a draft though. Maybe they can fix it.

Hmmm…

• Permanently Prohibit Taxpayer Funding of Abortion: We will establish a government-wide prohibition on taxpayer funding of abortion and subsidies for insurance coverage that includes abortion, this includes enacting into law what is known as the Hyde Amendment. We will also enact into law conscience protections for health care providers, including doctors, nurses, and hospitals.

—-

This is kind of funny:

• We will continue to fight the growth of government and oppose new stimulus spending that only puts our nation further in debt.

Continue to?

—-

Also:

• We will fight efforts to use a national crisis for political gain.

By not tarring all Muslims with and constantly fear-mongering off of the trauma of 9/11? By not using the disquiet caused by the recession to foment xenophobia for political gain? Actually, forget the GOP here. Is there any politician that doesn’t anchor their political rhetoric in the crises and tragedies of their day? Just dumb.

617 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:21:37pm

re: #612 LudwigVanQuixote

Well for those who are curious about what modern metals can do in the hands of a master smith, check this out.


[Video]I can not afford one of these l6 bainite blades, and the fact is that a master smith starting with 1065 will out do a novice starting with l6 or T-10 steel. However, this is the upper end of the possible.

Fearsome stuff. The sort of blade that holds its edge even when it hacks through bone.

Please excuse the ghoulish comment. I’m bloody-minded where weapons are concerned but only in thought, never in action. I believe in justice and that counters the impulse to violence.

618 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:21:44pm

re: #610 engineer dog

pre 60 thousand bc - modern humans in africa and levant, neanderthals in europe, some homo erectus elsewhere

45 thousand - 10 thousand bc - humans all over old world. paleolithic technology

10 thousand - 6 thousand mesolithic era in europe. stone tools, no agriculture, but ice age big game gone. technological innovations include bow and arrow and domestication of the dog

6 thousand - 3500 bc - agriculture spreads through europe from the southeast to the northwest

4000 - 1000 bronze age spreads through europe

1000 - 0 bc - iron age

I have to cover some of this with the sixth-graders for Social Studies. Wasn’t clear if the C-M were homo sapiens sapiens or no. Apparently, yes.

I also do religion with these guys, and I am sorely tempted to draw them a connection between the Ice Age and the expulsion from Eden, but

a. am not sure I can explain my idea to them and
b. am afraid Father B. will have a nervous breakdown

In other news, the seventh graders did lousy on their big Religion test on ‘true and truth’. I should have suggested that Mr. W. add ‘truthiness’ as a category.

619 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:22:10pm

‘Nite, all. Sorry about MIL2, SFZ. She sounded cool.

620 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:22:37pm

re: #612 LudwigVanQuixote

Yow! Thanks for that video, interesting stuff.

621 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:23:04pm

re: #615 LudwigVanQuixote

Indeed. All humans came from Africa ultimately. At least that is my understanding.

They say that..but I’m not so sure.. Our heritage is so rich.. I can’t see the Chinese race coming from Central Africa..I think we blossomed around the world..Who knows..Very interesting

622 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:23:27pm

re: #613 Decatur Deb

Everyone on the inside of a business hates the movies made about it (e.g. naval aviators laugh at Top Gun). For anthropologists, that’s Quest for Fire.

I’m also wondering about having the kids read a single scene from Clan of the Cave Bear, just because we’re going to do a section on Paleolithic religion (insofar as we know anything about it), and I think they might appreciate the scene where the young woman puts flowers on her foster-mother’s grave. But then they might want to read the book…

623 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:24:01pm

re: #617 Dark_Falcon

Fearsome stuff. The sort of blade that holds its edge even when it hacks through bone.

Please excuse the ghoulish comment. I’m bloody-minded where weapons are concerned but only in thought, never in action. I believe in justice and that counters the impulse to violence.

That is exactly the point.

Only you missed the deal with the multiple thick tatamie mats. That is the kind of blade that will cut an un-armored person in half - and maintain its edge.

No sword is magic, you can nut cut another sword in half with even one of these, and there is an upper limit to all possible performance. However, mediocre blades will kill someone, and this is the upper end of the possible.

624 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:24:10pm

re: #615 LudwigVanQuixote

Indeed. All humans came from Africa ultimately. At least that is my understanding.

Yep. I’m starting to wonder if this one Hap strain I have is Neanderthal. My mom took part if the National Geographic DNA sampling.

625 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:24:21pm

re: #615 LudwigVanQuixote

Indeed. All humans came from Africa ultimately. At least that is my understanding.

One day, in the Rift Valley, a small ape-like creature of enormous potential stood up to see what the world over the grass looked like.

At least that’s how I imagine it.

626 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:25:10pm

re: #619 Decatur Deb

‘Nite, all. Sorry about MIL2, SFZ. She sounded cool.

An amazing lady.

627 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:25:25pm

re: #618 SanFranciscoZionist

I have to cover some of this with the sixth-graders for Social Studies. Wasn’t clear if the C-M were homo sapiens sapiens or no. Apparently, yes.

I also do religion with these guys, and I am sorely tempted to draw them a connection between the Ice Age and the expulsion from Eden, but

a. am not sure I can explain my idea to them and
b. am afraid Father B. will have a nervous breakdown

In other news, the seventh graders did lousy on their big Religion test on ‘true and truth’. I should have suggested that Mr. W. add ‘truthiness’ as a category.

Play “original sin” as the transition from nomadic herders to settled agriculturists. What were Cain and Abel’s sacrifices? Don’t press too hard unless there’s a local teacher’s shortage.

628 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:26:07pm

re: #618 SanFranciscoZionist

I have to cover some of this with the sixth-graders for Social Studies. Wasn’t clear if the C-M were homo sapiens sapiens or no. Apparently, yes.

I also do religion with these guys, and I am sorely tempted to draw them a connection between the Ice Age and the expulsion from Eden, but

a. am not sure I can explain my idea to them and
b. am afraid Father B. will have a nervous breakdown

In other news, the seventh graders did lousy on their big Religion test on ‘true and truth’. I should have suggested that Mr. W. add ‘truthiness’ as a category.

I don’t think that there is any comparison to be made between the ice age and the Expulsion from Eden.

For one thing, the last Ice age was over 20,000 years ago, and by then, there were very many human groups spread over Africa, Europe and Asia.

Not all of those regions were icy.

Exactly where was Eden, and who got expelled?

629 lostlakehiker  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:26:40pm

re: #600 LudwigVanQuixote

I have heard that the early humans who came out of Africa interbred with the so called Cro-magnon in Europe.

Unfortunately, the worst sorts of people take this hypothesis and make up terrible things with it.

But this is wrong. The Cro-magnons were modern humans, homo sapiens sapiens, not Neanderthals, and not native to Europe. They are the descendants (apart from a small admixture of Neanderthal) of the humans who left Africa some 70 thousand years ago, give or take a lot…the date is up in the air.

The real story is that the humans coming out of Africa interbred, enough that the consequences are evident in our genomes today [contribution of from 1 to 4 percent], with Neanderthals, another species. Quite possibly, also with some of the various homo erectus strands that were still on the scene, outside Europe—-that research has not come in yet.

Nothing much is known about whether the Neanderthal contribution was of any advantage to those who got it. If there was a harmful component, it probably got winnowed out as evolution did its usual stuff. If there had been any exceptionally helpful component, it would have swept the genome of the population that came in contact; this doesn’t seem to have happened.

630 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:27:12pm

re: #625 SanFranciscoZionist

One day, in the Rift Valley, a small ape-like creature of enormous potential stood up to see what the world over the grass looked like.

At least that’s how I imagine it.

Me too.

She was probably short and furry too :)

631 Ojoe  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:27:47pm

Yes the Modern Whigs are going to be at the “Rally to Restore Sanity:

This is something we are going to be having people go to, and also try to get candidates to attend as well. There will be materials within the next two weeks on the MWP website for people who will be attending to download to distribute.

(from the MWP facebook page)

[Link: www.facebook.com…]

632 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:27:49pm

re: #629 lostlakehiker

But this is wrong. The Cro-magnons were modern humans, homo sapiens sapiens, not Neanderthals, and not native to Europe. They are the descendants (apart from a small admixture of Neanderthal) of the humans who left Africa some 70 thousand years ago, give or take a lot…the date is up in the air.

The real story is that the humans coming out of Africa interbred, enough that the consequences are evident in our genomes today [contribution of from 1 to 4 percent], with Neanderthals, another species. Quite possibly, also with some of the various homo erectus strands that were still on the scene, outside Europe—-that research has not come in yet.

Nothing much is known about whether the Neanderthal contribution was of any advantage to those who got it. If there was a harmful component, it probably got winnowed out as evolution did its usual stuff. If there had been any exceptionally helpful component, it would have swept the genome of the population that came in contact; this doesn’t seem to have happened.

Then I stand corrected. Paleo anthropology is not my field.

633 Decatur Deb  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:28:35pm

re: #622 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m also wondering about having the kids read a single scene from Clan of the Cave Bear, just because we’re going to do a section on Paleolithic religion (insofar as we know anything about it), and I think they might appreciate the scene where the young woman puts flowers on her foster-mother’s grave. But then they might want to read the book…

Just warn them. There’s good stuff in the literature about burial practices even among the Neaderthals. They had music, art and religion. Google “Dolni Vestonice” if I remember correctly.

‘Nite for real.

634 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:28:57pm

re: #623 LudwigVanQuixote

That is exactly the point.

Only you missed the deal with the multiple thick tatamie mats. That is the kind of blade that will cut an un-armored person in half - and maintain its edge.

No sword is magic, you can nut cut another sword in half with even one of these, and there is an upper limit to all possible performance. However, mediocre blades will kill someone, and this is the upper end of the possible.

Yep, fearsome.

635 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:29:15pm

re: #616 simoom

By not tarring all Muslims with and constantly fear-mongering off of the trauma of 9/11? By not using the disquiet caused by the recession to foment xenophobia for political gain? Actually, forget the GOP here. Is there any politician that doesn’t anchor their political rhetoric in the crises and tragedies of their day? Just dumb.

Right on!

Now I’m not saying that Democrats are lily white angels descended directly from the Heavens… but I really don’t see many (any?) hyping up political rhetoric around topics such as religious preference, sexual preference and the like. Or even 9/11.

636 Gus  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:29:29pm

re: #569 SanFranciscoZionist

We lost my MIL2 early yesterday morning.

My husband is sad. Me too.

Sorry to hear that {{{SanFranciscoZionist}}}.

637 Kronocide  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:31:01pm

re: #569 SanFranciscoZionist

We lost my MIL2 early yesterday morning.

My husband is sad. Me too.

My deepest empathies SFZ.

638 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:31:23pm

re: #635 marjoriemoon

Ah, Marjorie, dang it. I thought I was a lily white angel.

639 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:32:59pm

re: #628 LudwigVanQuixote

I don’t think that there is any comparison to be made between the ice age and the Expulsion from Eden.

For one thing, the last Ice age was over 20,000 years ago, and by then, there were very many human groups spread over Africa, Europe and Asia.

Not all of those regions were icy.

Exactly where was Eden, and who got expelled?

I thought it was supposed to be in Hebron. Cave of Machpelah.

640 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:33:17pm

re: #638 prairiefire

Ah, Marjorie, dang it. I thought I was a lily white angel.

There..You see..You have been listening to the Angel on your right shoulder whispering in your ear…
*wink*

641 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:34:56pm

OK, my mom’s chart, which scientifically is my chart, says we are Haplogroup X.
All of our family history is through Western Europe. So, we were only 2% of the Western European genetic profile. Unless some one is lying somewhere along the line, we have no Native American blood, which is the majority of Haplogroup X.

642 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:35:00pm

re: #638 prairiefire

Ah, Marjorie, dang it. I thought I was a lily white angel.

You’re excluded from the masses, of course!

643 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:36:22pm

re: #620 wlewisiii

Yow! Thanks for that video, interesting stuff.

Well to give an idea of how effective steel really is, consider the following video for a nice, but mass produced sword used by people with terrible form. The consider how well that cuts.

Youtube Video
Youtube Video
Youtube Video
644 firstinla  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:37:46pm

I live near a family who attend a fundamentalist church. Part of their belief is that the earth is only about 6000 years old and that the “cave men” were wiped out by the big flood in Noah’s time. So were the dinosaurs. It is my personal opinion that these folks still have a lot of neanderthal genes in their bodies.

645 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:38:07pm

re: #639 marjoriemoon

I thought it was supposed to be in Hebron. Cave of Machpelah.

I have never heard that tradition.

It is also a difficult one to reconcile with text, since Abraham and his family clearly went into the cave to bury people, and there was no firey sword or angry Sepharim to deal with.

646 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:39:34pm

re: #645 LudwigVanQuixote

I have never heard that tradition.

It is also a difficult one to reconcile with text, since Abraham and his family clearly went into the cave to bury people, and there was no firey sword or angry Sepharim to deal with.

Well that’s why I think that spot is so special and why the Real First Family is buried there heh. It’s supposedly the entrance to Eden.

647 Kronocide  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:42:15pm

Separation of Church and State = Nazi.

Like the joining of Church and State has always worked out well.

I continue to reach new levels of shock and amazement at the levels of moronic asshattery displayed by these GOP candidates.

648 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:43:08pm

re: #644 firstinla

I live near a family who attend a fundamentalist church. Part of their belief is that the earth is only about 6000 years old and that the “cave men” were wiped out by the big flood in Noah’s time. So were the dinosaurs. It is my personal opinion that these folks still have a lot of neanderthal genes in their bodies.

Don’t mistake genetics for indoctrination.

649 fizzlogic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:45:13pm

re: #275 Gus 802

Billions and trillions of dollars everywhere and yet they are not investing in business, production, etc. This is in the private sector. Yet all we hear about is how “it’s the governments fault” about this or that. The money is just sitting there.

Deflation probably has a lot to do with that. Though if you watch Fox or read the WSJ the money sits on the sidelines for fear of new taxes.

650 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:48:44pm

re: #649 trendsurfer

I don’t think there is any deflation at the moment. The dollar is strong and manufacturing is up.

651 What, me worry?  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:52:19pm

re: #645 LudwigVanQuixote

I have never heard that tradition.

It is also a difficult one to reconcile with text, since Abraham and his family clearly went into the cave to bury people, and there was no firey sword or angry Sepharim to deal with.

Sorry, I was trying to find a link. Here’s a wonderful one. See under “Spiritual” tab. It’s Kabbalah actually, from the Zohar.

[Link: www.chabad.org…]

652 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:56:07pm

re: #651 marjoriemoon

Sorry, I was trying to find a link. Here’s a wonderful one. See under “Spiritual” tab. It’s Kabbalah actually, from the Zohar.

[Link: www.chabad.org…]

Interesting…

I still don’t get who the angry Seraphim were avoided though… Well, Zohar is like that…

653 fizzlogic  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:56:54pm

So you’re saying the real estate bubble has been completely deflated? There’s no rational reason for lenders to worry that anything they invest in will fall another 10 to 15%—it’s all up from here?

I wish I could be that optimistic.

654 lostlakehiker  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 7:59:40pm

re: #650 prairiefire

I don’t think there is any deflation at the moment. The dollar is strong and manufacturing is up.

When the velocity of money picks back up to “normal”, the considerable increase in quantity is going to have some potent inflationary consequences.

Unless—-productivity soars?

Velocity stays down?

655 prairiefire  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 8:05:20pm

re: #653 trendsurfer

We bought our 3 bedroom suburban for 125 ~12 years ago, it is now going for around 165, every where in our area. The flippers will buy up a lot of the foreclosures, the banks need to lend more money and expand the economy in that manner.

656 lostlakehiker  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 8:21:24pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote

A simple question:

Which is more contemptible?

The dim-witted, unlettered and insane, but misled and propagandized rube who mistakenly thinks they know better and would tear down the values of this nation out of an expedient sop to their own base fears hatred and ignorance…

The raving politician who truly believes the hateful message and would seek fame power and and an imposition of their twisted vision on the world by leading the rubes…

The opportunistic propagandist who knows better and pushes the evil message because firing up the rubes makes a profit and maintains and expands a niche market based on ever spiraling paranoia and insanity…

The behind the scenes career politician who knows better, but sees attaching themselves to this as a pathway to power and lends it legitimacy…

Or finally, the “opposition” party, who is too fractured by personal fiefdoms and concerns to stand up to it and who is too craven to act or even call the lies, lies and evil, evil?

Niven and Pournelle’s “Inferno” includes a nice little scene of two politicians in hell, both for their votes on a strategic defense initiative bill. They’d voted opposite ways and they didn’t understand. N&P’s guide (not Virgil) asked them a few questions and then explained: both of you voted against what you believed to be the national interest and the best chance for peace, because you each saw an advantage in betraying those values.

So here you are.

Bad consequences will flow out of bad decisions, no matter the motive. But to be truly evil, rather than just a dangerous animal who has to be stopped, you have to know right from wrong, and then deliberately choose wrong.

657 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 8:32:11pm

re: #612 LudwigVanQuixote

Well for those who are curious about what modern metals can do in the hands of a master smith, check this out.

[Video]

I can not afford one of these l6 bainite blades, and the fact is that a master smith starting with 1065 will out do a novice starting with l6 or T-10 steel. However, this is the upper end of the possible.

1. What is the composition of those cylindrical objects they’re slicing through?

2. WHY have sword makers who go to all that trouble to figure out arcane, exotic metallurgy (thus clearly demonstrating themselves to be geeks by definition) not yet created some sort of luminescent metal, or at the very least figured out a way to aim a colored LED down the blade so as to imitate a lightsaber?

3. That video adds a certain bit of texture to this:

[Link: xkcd.com…]

658 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 9:38:11pm

re: #657 negativ

1. What is the composition of those cylindrical objects they’re slicing through?

Those are rolled tatami mats with a thick, green bamboo core. In the old days, new swords were tested on condemned criminals, prisoners of war and corpses. That became illegal in Japan over 200 years ago, so wete rice fiebr tatami (to simulate flesh) wrapped around bamboo (of a thickness to simulate bone) was substituted. Several centuries ago, people who knew the difference claimed this was a good substitute.

2. WHY have sword makers who go to all that trouble to figure out arcane, exotic metallurgy (thus clearly demonstrating themselves to be geeks by definition) not yet created some sort of luminescent metal, or at the very least figured out a way to aim a colored LED down the blade so as to imitate a lightsaber?

Well, sword makers have always needed to know arcane and exotic metallurgy. That was what differentiated a blade that kept their customers alive from one that did not. This was very serious business. As to being geeks, well, that is in the eye of the beholder. I would prefer to see it as a mixture of art, science and years of dedication.

3. That video adds a certain bit of texture to this:

As to light sabers, those are fantasy and always will be. As to something real, that is another matter.

659 I Am Kreniigh!  Wed, Sep 22, 2010 9:43:55pm

re: #21 darthstar

You know who else stopped beating his wife? Hitler!
//

That is the funniest thing I’ve read today.

660 marsl  Thu, Sep 23, 2010 5:30:40am

Why is the GOP tryingo to reelect Obama?


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