1 APox  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:30:20pm

I still think a hybrid is the way to go. I was really considering a fully electric car, but with the range they have (I believe it's only 90 miles) it makes it illogical if you ever plan to drive outside of your home area.

Maybe it could become more viable if there were more charging stations, but then you also have the wait time which is pretty long (last I checked), unless they could do removable batteries like they are doing in Europe or quick-charging.

Nice commercial though. :)

2 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:30:26pm

Excellent. A step int he right direction.

3 APox  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:32:13pm

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm not convinced, would love to hear you weigh in on this since you seem so passionate about climate change...

But wouldn't a heavy increase in all electric vehicles also cause a lot of issues? Such as the highly toxic materials that need to be mined for the batteries, and what about disposal? Not to mention where you actually get the electricity from, it'd be a beautiful thing if wind or solar could supply the energy for the car... But how possible is that?

4 Interesting Times  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:34:08pm

This ad is a good reminder of why I hate, hate, hate, HATE leaf blowers.

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

Check this out as well.

5 wrenchwench  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:35:32pm

Some folks still wonder why I don't want to cash in by putting motors on bicycles for people who have lost their licenses or their will to pedal up hills.

6 albusteve  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:39:30pm

so where does all that electricity come from?

7 Flounder  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:39:47pm

My VW Diesel gets 50 mpg, and no batteries!

8 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:39:55pm

re: #6 albusteve

so where does all that electricity come from?

Coal-burning power plants.

9 wrenchwench  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:40:26pm

re: #4 publicityStunted

Check this out as well.

That's cool!

10 lawhawk  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:40:27pm

Nice commercial in using with and sarcasm to show how ICEs in all those other uses looks or sounds funny. Except that there's usually some form of turbine/generator/boiler at the other end of the power line - often tied to oil, gas, or most commonly coal. It shifts tailpipe emissions to smokestack emissions in many places and when it's coal that is being burned, the emissions are far more harmful.

What I find problematic with the Leaf is that while it would work as a commuter car, it doesn't work if you're doing long haul trips of more than 100 miles at a shot. You'd need a second car (with all the sunk energy costs associated with building, owning, maintaining a second car) for that purpose.

It's a problem I have with other super small cars that seem great for commuting, but which also seem to be predicated on the fact that you need to own 2+ cars.

Last gripe - and not really directed at the Leaf, is the fact that the power grid needs to be seriously revamped to deal with the power demands that shifting to electric vehicles would bring.

11 albusteve  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:41:08pm

re: #8 Alouette

Coal-burning power plants.

Hyperion...this actually gets boring after so many years
[Link: www.hyperionpowergeneration.com...]

12 kirkspencer  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:41:48pm

re: #1 APox

I still think a hybrid is the way to go. I was really considering a fully electric car, but with the range they have (I believe it's only 90 miles) it makes it illogical if you ever plan to drive outside of your home area.

Maybe it could become more viable if there were more charging stations, but then you also have the wait time which is pretty long (last I checked), unless they could do removable batteries like they are doing in Europe or quick-charging.

Nice commercial though. :)

re more charging stations, it's a bit of chicken/egg. More demand will bring more stations, which will cross the threshhold for customers wanting the vehicles which will create more demand...

As to the long-haul driving... yeah, I know. What gets me is that when I really get to looking, the vast majority of people drive less than 90 miles on a route most of the time. (yes, two vague hand-waves). Swagging, a vast majority only exceed the 90 mile line for holidays. Even long commuters tend to stay under that and could charge on each end.

But there's that three or four times per year you need the long distance, and if you don't have it you're stuck.

13 Flounder  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:42:49pm

re: #10 lawhawk

Don't forget winter in NY. Defrosters suck up a lotta power, that 90 mile range turns to about twenty in the winter.

14 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:43:21pm

The technology's improving all the time, and it won't be long before electric cars are truly competitive with gas-powered vehicles.

The LEAF is a really great car, as long as your trips are relatively short and you have access to chargers. But if you do more driving than that, it's not going to cut it.

I think we'll start to see really useful electric cars in 3 to 5 years.

15 3eff Jeff  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:43:55pm

re: #13 shropshire_slasher

Don't forget winter in NY. Defrosters suck up a lotta power, that 90 mile range turns to about twenty in the winter.

Also, batteries have a temperature coefficient. They lose capacity in the cold.

16 jamesfirecat  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:44:04pm

re: #14 Charles

The technology's improving all the time, and it won't be long before electric cars are truly competitive with gas-powered vehicles.

The LEAF is a really great car, as long as your trips are relatively short and you have access to chargers. But if you do more driving than that, it's not going to cut it.

I think we'll start to see really useful electric cars in 3 to 5 years.

I still want my jetpack!

17 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:45:14pm

re: #3 APox

I'm not convinced, would love to hear you weigh in on this since you seem so passionate about climate change...

But wouldn't a heavy increase in all electric vehicles also cause a lot of issues? Such as the highly toxic materials that need to be mined for the batteries, and what about disposal? Not to mention where you actually get the electricity from, it'd be a beautiful thing if wind or solar could supply the energy for the car... But how possible is that?

OK one thing at a time:

1. Highly toxic batteries. NiCd batteries are everywhere. You own some yourself.

2. What is toxic in comparison to a process that will ultimately kill billions, is killing now, causing droughts and super storms and flood NOW and end up collapsing our civilization? As to waste, batteries are very recyclable.

3. Simply updating the grid would be able to account for most of the car usage. Don't forget all the wasted emissions from plant idle time.

4. There is enough persistent wind power in certain sections of Oklahoma to power the entire nation if it were tapped and we had the transmission capability.

5. However, in the mean time a combination of wind, solar and nuclear would do the job quite well. The first step is updating the grid, focusing on wind and building a few more reactors.

18 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:46:05pm

re: #8 Alouette

Coal-burning power plants.

Yes, however, those plants spend a lot of time burning idle. It is not as bad emission wise as you might think.

19 Alexzander  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:47:19pm

Family put down our 18 year old dog today..

20 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:47:43pm

re: #16 jamesfirecat

I still want my jetpack!

I want to fly around looking like this!

21 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:47:59pm

re: #10 lawhawk

See my 17 and 18. I don't have the time to find the paper now, but I posted one on this very problem from MIT not so long ago. The grid can compensate a lot more than you think. You must count all the low demand times these plants are running idle - usually at night when people would charge their cars. Updating the grid would only improve the situation.

22 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:48:13pm

re: #19 Alexzander

Family put down our 18 year old dog today..

I am so sorry.

23 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:50:53pm

re: #10 lawhawk

I'm pretty sure you can find the paper here:

[Link: globalchange.mit.edu...]

You will have to dig a little though.

24 lawhawk  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:51:20pm

Some numbers to ponder:

Nissan has sold less than 2,000 Leafs to date since it was introduced in the US (it's sold around 4k worldwide). It may sell 10,000 by the end of the year.

Sales of cars for an entire year across all makes and models is expected to be in the 13 million range for the US.

Doing the math, we're talking about vehicles that would comprise an imperceptible fraction of 1% of the market (and a fractional percentage of Nissan sales).

It took the Prius nearly a decade before it sold 1 million cars worldwide - and that's the best selling hybrid in the world. Hybrid versions of the Accord and Camry, two of the best selling sedans have been anything but successful.

As for the power grid, there are some ideas on how to use the EVs to help smooth out demand and take advantage of batteries when they aren't being driven.

25 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:52:42pm

re: #4 publicityStunted

This ad is a good reminder of why I hate, hate, hate, HATE leaf blowers.

Check this out as well.

Absolutely on target. Excellent post!

26 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:54:27pm

re: #24 lawhawk

1. There are more than some ideas.

2. The tech really does work.

3. Once gas prices continue to rise, electric will be in much more demand. Peak oil is real and I am tired of over $4.00 a gallon as it is - even with my very fuel efficient car and frequent biking to work.

27 makeitstop  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:55:35pm

re: #5 wrenchwench

Some folks still wonder why I don't want to cash in by putting motors on bicycles for people who have lost their licenses or their will to pedal up hills.

I came across this page last night. The second bike from the top has a Lithium ion battery and electric motor nicely tucked into the frame.

The rest of the bikes are pretty stylish and cool, too. The one at the top with no axles blows my mind.

28 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:55:56pm

OT:
Jeff Conaway dead at 60

29 makeitstop  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:57:30pm

re: #15 3eff Jeff

Also, batteries have a temperature coefficient. They lose capacity in the cold.

I subscribe to AutoWeek, and they had a review of the Leaf a couple of issues back. They mentioned that right at the top - temperate climates will shave miles off of your expected range.

30 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, May 27, 2011 1:00:32pm

re: #29 makeitstop

I subscribe to AutoWeek, and they had a review of the Leaf a couple of issues back. They mentioned that right at the top - temperate climates will shave miles off of your expected range.

True. The tech with this generation of batteries is for a daily commuter car. Of course, the savings in gasoline will pay for the car in a few years, so it might be worth it anyway.

31 What, me worry?  Fri, May 27, 2011 1:02:40pm

re: #19 Alexzander

Family put down our 18 year old dog today..

Oooo sad, sad day ((hugs))

32 ProGunLiberal  Fri, May 27, 2011 1:10:55pm

re: #19 Alexzander

(Hug)

I'm sorry.

33 efuseakay  Fri, May 27, 2011 1:20:06pm

Hey, the guy's toothbrush wasn't gas powered. LIES!

34 NVAudiophile  Fri, May 27, 2011 1:26:37pm

I would add to this discussion that the Tesla Roadster has a 300 mile range, albeit with a $109,000 price. The upcoming Tesla model S is a more practical sedan that seats four, also has a 300 mile range, and costs $77,000. As the technology continues to improve, the cost of successive models is expected to decline.

Also regarding the source of the electricity used to run electric cars: base-load power plants have enough spinning reserve capacity during night and early morning hours to charge millions of electric cars without increasing output.

35 austin_blue  Fri, May 27, 2011 6:10:05pm

re: #14 Charles

The technology's improving all the time, and it won't be long before electric cars are truly competitive with gas-powered vehicles.

The LEAF is a really great car, as long as your trips are relatively short and you have access to chargers. But if you do more driving than that, it's not going to cut it.

I think we'll start to see really useful electric cars in 3 to 5 years.

Charles, what if battery life wasn't an issue?? Check this out:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

36 Fenris  Fri, May 27, 2011 7:45:47pm

The electronics industry would probably market it as "steampunk."


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