Craziest Fundamentalist Republican Wins Iowa Straw Poll

Michele Bachmann is partying tonight, in her own way
Politics • Views: 32,905

The big winners of the Iowa straw poll: religious fanatic Michele Bachmann, followed closely in second place by religious fanatic “libertarian” Ron Paul. I’m shocked that Ron Paul’s followers didn’t succeed in stacking this poll; they must be slipping.

I don’t think Bachmann or Paul realize yet that Mitt Romney is next in line in the natural succession of Republican candidates.

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467 comments
1 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:11:36pm

A brand new shiny thread.

don't mess it up.

2 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:13:52pm

I think they know about that next in line thing, simply by thinking they can beat the old guard/GOP machine. If they bet wrong they will feel the consequences through their current terms, that's for sure.

If they win the primary and lose to Obama big, along with a reduced majority in the house the GOP could really be sidelined.

At this point I have to wonder if the TP can beat the old machine. It's gonna be interesting. And appalling.

3 albusteve  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:15:59pm

one step at a time comrade

4 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:16:10pm

The real story here is that Romney came in behind Perry, despite the fact that Romney was in yesterday's debate, Perry wasn't, neither participated in the poll, and Perry only declared today. Look for Romney to throw everything he has at trying to bring down Perry in the next few months, because if he can't his campaign is boned.

5 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:17:34pm

The Tea Party wants to have elections with straw polls. It's in the Constitution.

6 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:17:40pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

The real story here is that Romney came in behind Perry, despite the fact that Romney was in yesterday's debate, Perry wasn't, neither participated in the poll, and Perry only declared today. Look for Romney to throw everything he has at trying to bring down Perry in the next few months, because if he can't his campaign is boned.

Romney doesn't expect to win Iowa. His targets are New Hampshire and Michigan, states where he has a strong advantage.

8 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:19:37pm

re: #7 jaunte

The winner in the straw poll, Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn), gave a rousing victory speech that was simulcast in English across the state.

I suspect Iowans didn't understand much of it.

9 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:20:24pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

Romney doesn't expect to win Iowa. His targets are New Hampshire and Michigan, states where he has a strong advantage.

Well now it's really on.

May the most sensible candidate win in the primary.
*RWC crosses fingers and toes*

10 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:20:26pm

re: #7 jaunte

The winner in the straw poll, Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn), gave a rousing victory speech that was simulcast in English across the state.

The wingnuts in a... nutshell.

Gov. Perry kicked off his presidential campaign today in South Carolina, unveiling a new stump speech in which he promised to repeal the twentieth century.
11 palomino  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:20:33pm

The nomination is now Perry's to lose, I fear. He's got everything Romney does (except maybe sanity): strong jawline, good thick head of hair, etc. Plus he's the "right" religion and not a flip flopping sorta moderate from New England. Unless he's completely moronic in the debates or runs a Fred Thompson style non-campaign, I don't see these other midgets stopping him. If so, we'll have about as stark a contrast in next year's general election as one could imagine.

12 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:21:04pm

re: #7 jaunte

The winner in the straw poll, Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn), gave a rousing victory speech that was simulcast in English across the state.

OMG, everything on that site is LMAO!

13 elisabeth  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:21:45pm

re: #4 goddamnedfrank

Santorum came in fourth (ahead of Perry and Romney) for crying out loud.

14 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:21:48pm

I have to accomplish something

bblater.

Have a good time Lizards!

15 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:22:24pm

re: #12 ggt

I like this one:

Debt Ceiling Crisis: Like Y2K With Assholes Instead of Computers
Majority of Congressmen No Longer Remember Which Deal They Like
16 FreedomMoon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:22:53pm

"Corporations are people too, my friend."

Big GOP money got themselves all wet when they heard that comment. Nothing subtle or tacit about it, just how the money-makers want it. You couldn't be more right Charles, Romney has really cemented his position as the top dog.

17 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:22:59pm

re: #12 ggt

OMG, everything on that site is LMAO!

Heh!

Predator Drone Seen Hovering over Standard & Poor’s Headquarters
18 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:23:14pm

If we spook Bachmann fans by respelling her name, we end up with a Franco-Muslim sounding iteration:

Bichelle Rachmann.

19 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:24:33pm

From what I'm reading, Pawlenty was counting on a win here to pick up the momentum he so desperately needs. This might be the final nail in the coffin for his clusterfuck of a campaign.

20 Iwouldprefernotto  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:25:39pm

Newt.

21 dragonfire1981  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:25:42pm

I still have a sneaking suspicion Bachmann will get the nomination. I guess I just feel with the Tea Party running wild the traditional logic may not hold.

22 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:25:58pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

Romney doesn't expect to win Iowa. His targets are New Hampshire and Michigan, states where he has a strong advantage.

He can't win Texas, the Carolinas, Georgia, Alabama, TN, KY, OK, the list goes on. Do the math, the entire South except for Florida is probably out of his grasp at this point, and Florida ain't no sure thing. If his strategy consists of counting on New Hampshire and Michigan to create momentum he's going to lose, he's got to go negative and utterly destroy Perry, dig up some serious dirt, kneecap him in the press. Otherwise Romney is in deep trouble.

23 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:26:49pm

re: #9 Rightwingconspirator

Well now it's really on.

May the most sensible candidate win in the primary.
*RWC crosses fingers and toes*

Quite Concur. I always want the candidate who'd make the best president to win the primary, for both parties. Because its going to be either a Democrat or a Republican, and I'd really prefer that both of the final choices be qualified,,

24 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:26:50pm

re: #21 dragonfire1981

I still have a sneaking suspicion Bachmann will get the nomination. I guess I just feel with the Tea Party running wild the traditional logic may not hold.

I hope so. It would my job as an Obama campaign volunteer so much easier.

25 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:27:24pm

re: #24 Atlas Fails

I hope so. It would make my job as an Obama campaign volunteer so much easier.

26 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:27:34pm

re: #13 elisabeth

Santorum came in fourth (ahead of Perry and Romney) for crying out loud.

Santorum participated, Perry and Romney did not, they were write ins.

27 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:28:26pm

re: #26 goddamnedfrank

Santorum participated, Perry and Romney did not, they were write ins.

Actually I'm not sure Romney was a write in, he didn't participate but I believe the organizers put him on the ballot anyway.

28 allegro  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:30:10pm

re: #21 dragonfire1981

I still have a sneaking suspicion Bachmann will get the nomination. I guess I just feel with the Tea Party running wild the traditional logic may not hold.

Nope. Never happen. The TP/GOP will never allow the nomination of a woman in the top spot. She's the side show, the useful idiot to oil the skids for the savior who appears to be at this point Rick Perry.

29 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:30:21pm

re: #20 Iwouldprefernotto

Newt.

I'm still waiting for him to get better.

30 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:30:24pm

re: #22 goddamnedfrank

He can't win Texas, the Carolinas, Georgia, Alabama, TN, KY, OK, the list goes on. Do the math, the entire South except for Florida is probably out of his grasp at this point, and Florida ain't no sure thing. If his strategy consists of counting on New Hampshire and Michigan to create momentum he's going to lose, he's got to go negative and utterly destroy Perry, dig up some serious dirt, kneecap him in the press. Otherwise Romney is in deep trouble.

He could win North Carolina and Tennessee, IMO, if he gets enough early momentum and wins Florida. Then he puts major effort into the Midwest. Go to Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio. Use those states to get the needed delegates and don't worry too much about the South in the primaries.

31 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:32:10pm

re: #27 goddamnedfrank

Actually I'm not sure Romney was a write in, he didn't participate but I believe the organizers put him on the ballot anyway.

Yeah, Romney was actually on the ballot. He got beat by a write in.

32 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:32:56pm

re: #28 allegro

Nope. Never happen. The TP/GOP will never allow the nomination of a woman in the top spot. She's the side show, the useful idiot to oil the skids for the savior who appears to be at this point Rick Perry.

It's less about her being a woman, and more about her being a congresswoman. Both major US parties prefer to nominate governors, and many Tea Party voters would vote for Perry on that basis. Its more a strategic vote, not because he's a man.

33 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:33:34pm

Should Romney stumble in New Hampshire...(as many a presumptive favorite has...he is absolutely finished.

34 allegro  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:33:43pm

re: #32 Dark_Falcon

It's less about her being a woman, and more about her being a congresswoman. Both major US parties prefer to nominate governors, and many Tea Party voters would vote for Perry on that basis. Its more a strategic vote, not because he's a man.

Please. Just keep on deluding yourself. OK by me.

35 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:33:59pm

re: #32 Dark_Falcon

It's less about her being a woman, and more about her being a congresswoman. Both major US parties prefer to nominate governors, and many Tea Party voters would vote for Perry on that basis. Its more a strategic vote, not because he's a man.

Just keep telling yourself that.

36 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:34:13pm

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. I always want the candidate who'd make the best president to win the primary, for both parties. Because its going to be either a Democrat or a Republican, and I'd really prefer that both of the final choices be qualified,,

Hell yeah. But unfortunately the middle of the road candidate who could go up against Obama with IDEAS, and Centrist leanings, doesn't seem at this point to have a chance in hell. CORN DOGS FOR EVERYONE!

37 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:34:52pm

re: #21 dragonfire1981

I still have a sneaking suspicion Bachmann will get the nomination. I guess I just feel with the Tea Party running wild the traditional logic may not hold.

I think traditionalism is going to be her downfall.

Pentecostals and Charismatics (like the ORU-ites that gave her that J.D.) may have less of a problem with women's leadership, but they are a minority among con Christian R-voters, and the SBC is the flagship denomination of the GOP. They can't even deal with women's ordination, and already Bryan Fischer is starting to get antsy about it.

They are on a serious, cultural collision course over gender. Good. But Bachmann's the one it's going to affect.

38 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:35:26pm

re: #32 Dark_Falcon

It's less about her being a woman, and more about her being a congresswoman. Both major US parties prefer to nominate governors, and many Tea Party voters would vote for Perry on that basis. Its more a strategic vote, not because he's a man.

lmao

39 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:35:45pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

He could win North Carolina and Tennessee, IMO, if he gets enough early momentum and wins Florida. Then he puts major effort into the Midwest. Go to Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio. Use those states to get the needed delegates and don't worry too much about the South in the primaries.

That'd be a good strategy imo. Romney doesn't appeal to southern primary voters for a number of reasons (his religion, his state of origin, his questionable social conservative credentials) and is being seriously threatened by Perry for his status as the "jobs candidate." Romney needs New Hampshire, Florida (technically part of the south, but not as socon) and large chunks of the Midwest to win the nomination.

40 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:39:32pm

re: #36 Stanley Sea

Hell yeah. But unfortunately the middle of the road candidate who could go up against Obama with IDEAS, and Centrist leanings, doesn't seem at this point to have a chance in hell.

Which is really STUPID, because that is what they will need to win something other than the 23-percenter vote.

41 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:40:03pm

re: #36 Stanley Sea

I'm afraid Perry is going to be the nominee.

42 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:40:47pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

He could win North Carolina and Tennessee, IMO, if he gets enough early momentum and wins Florida. Then he puts major effort into the Midwest. Go to Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio. Use those states to get the needed delegates and don't worry too much about the South in the primaries.

Obama carried NC, Wisconsin, Ohio and New Hampshire. If Romney can't win in hardcore Republican strongholds he's going to face an incredibly difficult road to the nomination. He cannot count on early momentum in swing states carrying him though, he's in real trouble if he can't KO Perry before the primaries get started.

43 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:43:37pm

Okay I now have this page to pimp this thread, and vice versa.

Cross referenced -California poll diverges widely from Iowa, not that anyone should be surprised.

44 Let'sTalk  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:43:58pm

I really don't want to have another Texas Governor in the White House. We're still reeling from the last one.

45 ElCapitanAmerica  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:44:15pm

So no more late entries in the GOP race? I don't expect Palin to get in.

And I know very little about Perry, but he looks like a Romney clone minus the whole Mormon thing. Odds are he gets the nomination.

46 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:45:25pm

re: #33 bratwurst

Should Romney stumble in New Hampshire...(as many a presumptive favorite has...he is absolutely finished.

He's in a much better position in New Hampshire than most candidates. The voters there have known him for years and his approval ratings there are very high. Though that does also equal high expectations.

47 allegro  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:45:27pm

re: #41 jaunte

I'm afraid Perry is going to be the nominee.

I'm fairly certain of it, otherwise Perry wouldn't be running at all. He didn't hang back out of uncertainty of his desires. It was purely opportunism. If it wasn't a sure thing of him winning the nomination he would be waiting until 2016.

48 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:46:19pm

re: #41 jaunte

I'm afraid Perry is going to be the nominee.

Intrade agrees.

49 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:46:53pm

Rick Perry is much MUCH farther to the right than Mitt Romney ever was.

The Republican Party has arrived at its destination.

50 Renaissance_Man  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:47:02pm

re: #41 jaunte

I'm afraid Perry is going to be the nominee.

I said this earlier today, but I think he has a better than even chance of being President in 2013.

51 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:47:53pm

Bachmann isn't crazy! She's Reality Challenged.

52 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:48:16pm

re: #42 goddamnedfrank

Obama carried NC, Wisconsin, Ohio and New Hampshire. If Romney can't win in hardcore Republican strongholds he's going to face an incredibly difficult road to the nomination. He cannot count on early momentum in swing states carrying him though, he's in real trouble if he can't KO Perry before the primaries get started.

Obama will have a harder time winning those states this time, but that's besides the point. Romney does not need full-on wins in the South, since most of those primaries are no longer winner-take all. If he wins big in the Midwest and in the Mountain West, he can not win in the South and still get the nod.

53 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:48:48pm

re: #43 Rightwingconspirator

Okay I now have this page to pimp this thread, and vice versa.

Cross referenced -California poll diverges widely from Iowa, not that anyone should be surprised.

Oh crap that is an old, old poll. My apologies.

54 allegro  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:49:19pm

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

Obama will have a harder time winning those states this time, but that's besides the point. Romney does not need full-on wins in the South, since most of those primaries are no longer winner-take all. If he wins big in the Midwest and in the Mountain West, he can not win in the South and still get the nod.

Romney is toast. He was before he ever got started. He will never win the nomination - didn't have a chance.

55 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:49:27pm

Bachmann huh. Well, corngratualtions Iowa and Ms. Bachmann. We all saw this coming.

She sure is high on the weirdo factor.

56 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:49:57pm

re: #53 Rightwingconspirator

I've done that before, too.

57 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:50:57pm
I don’t think Bachmann or Paul realize yet that Mitt Romney is next in line in the natural succession of Republican candidates.

The best qualified for the presidency is probably Huntsman, followed by Romney. Or, if you like, the least unqualified.

But let's see how Perry does. Perry has money, he has connections, he has all the right know-nothing credentials the religious right is looking for, and he's fum Texas.

That's not altogether irrelevant. Texas is, or can be painted as, somewhat of an exception to the near-recession gripping the nation.

58 jc717  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:51:16pm

I really hope that Romney or Huntsman get the nomination. I can see voting for either of them. Yes, they're pandering now, but they're at least sane. It's sad that that quality is not seen as a given in major party candidate.

59 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:52:01pm

re: #54 allegro

Romney is toast. He was before he ever got started. He will never win the nomination - didn't have a chance.

I think that you are wrong.

60 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:52:38pm

re: #16 tacuba14

"Corporations are people too, my friend."

Big GOP money got themselves all wet when they heard that comment. Nothing subtle or tacit about it, just how the money-makers want it. You couldn't be more right Charles, Romney has really cemented his position as the top dog.

It's a dishonest quote. That's not what he meant, and it's not what he said. The rest of the answer completes the thought: corporations are people---because in the end, it comes down to people. The people who work for the corporation, and the people who have invested in it, etc.

61 allegro  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:54:38pm

re: #57 lostlakehiker

That's not altogether irrelevant. Texas is, or can be painted as, somewhat of an exception to the near-recession gripping the nation.

The near recession? I promise you that Texas is feeling the REAL recession as much an anyone. The jobs being created here that Perry is so proud of are not living wage jobs. The reason for the reported low unemplyment is because most unemployed people are screwed out of the unemployment they paid into by a corrupt board that is stacked 3 to 2 against them.

62 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:54:53pm

re: #54 allegro

Romney is toast. He was before he ever got started. He will never win the nomination - didn't have a chance.

He's too Mormon for a lot of voters who will happily vote for Perry.

63 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:54:53pm

re: #49 Charles

Rick Perry is much MUCH farther to the right than Mitt Romney ever was.

The Republican Party has arrived at its destination.

If the premise is that Perry will be the nominee, the conclusion follows. But Iowa Electronic Markets is not recording Perry as the inevitable nominee. Much can happen between now and the convention.

64 allegro  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:56:15pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

I think that you are wrong.

We'll be finding out soon enough.

65 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:56:20pm

re: #49 Charles

Rick Perry is much MUCH farther to the right than Mitt Romney ever was.

The Republican Party has arrived at its destination.

And he doesn't have the Sword of Damocles (Obomney Care) hanging over his head. No one is going to Out-conservative Pointy Boots. No one is going to Out-christian or Out-teabilly him either.

As I said in an earlier thread:

"He's a dangerous man. Raises money like Midas. Great on the stump. He'll get waxed in debates because of his stated positions, but you know what? Over half of the people in this country don't believe in either evolution *or* anthropogenic climate change, and those that kinda sorta do will vote their pocketbooks first anyway."

Be very afraid of this guy. He's one capable motherfucker of a Politician. And there is an exceedingly large pot of money he can tap.

66 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:56:32pm

re: #61 allegro

The near recession? I promise you that Texas is feeling the REAL recession as much an anyone. The jobs being created here that Perry is so proud of are not living wage jobs. The reason for the reported low unemplyment is because most unemployed people are screwed out of the unemployment they paid into by a corrupt board that is stacked 3 to 2 against them.

A job that pays poorly still pays more than no job. People are voting with their feet. Oh, and any job pays a living wage. You won't die of hunger because you cannot afford 2500 calories a day. You won't die of exposure because you can't afford any legal housing.

67 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:56:54pm

re: #63 lostlakehiker

If the premise is that Perry will be the nominee, the conclusion follows. But Iowa Electronic Markets is not recording Perry as the inevitable nominee. Much can happen between now and the convention.

Quoted for Truth.

The primaries aren't till next year, folks. Let's at least not be certain till after New Hampshire.

68 Cheechako  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:58:11pm

I think the most fun would be a Republican convention where no candidate had a clear majority.

Popcorn time!!

69 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:58:28pm

re: #42 goddamnedfrank

Obama carried NC, Wisconsin, Ohio and New Hampshire. If Romney can't win in hardcore Republican strongholds he's going to face an incredibly difficult road to the nomination. He cannot count on early momentum in swing states carrying him though, he's in real trouble if he can't KO Perry before the primaries get started.

His New Hampshire-centered strategy makes sense on paper, but is incredibly risky. Don't forget, Hillary tried the same thing in '08.

70 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:58:56pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon
And remember midnight voting in Dixville Notch and Hart's Location.

71 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:59:04pm

re: #66 lostlakehiker

A job that pays poorly still pays more than no job. People are voting with their feet. Oh, and any job pays a living wage. You won't die of hunger because you cannot afford 2500 calories a day. You won't die of exposure because you can't afford any legal housing.

Bullshit.

72 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:59:34pm

re: #57 lostlakehiker


That's not altogether irrelevant. Texas is, or can be painted as, somewhat of an exception to the near-recession gripping the nation.

We'll see how long that last as it crisps up in an extreme drought.

73 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 6:59:56pm

re: #66 lostlakehiker

A job that pays poorly still pays more than no job. People are voting with their feet. Oh, and any job pays a living wage. You won't die of hunger because you cannot afford 2500 calories a day. You won't die of exposure because you can't afford any legal housing.

Thank you Freemarket Jesus.

74 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:00:01pm

Field Poll
Is this a questionable poll source? These results are on few news sites...

California Republicans favor presidential candidate Mitt Romney by a comfortable margin over other Republicans, a Field Poll released today shows.

When stacked up against 11 other announced or potential Republican candidates, Romney is the first choice of an eye-catching 25 percent of GOP voters in the state. If former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani is excluded, Romney's share jumps to 30 percent.

"He's got a commanding lead in the early going," pollster Mark DiCamillo said. "Romney has the formula of both being well-known and being positively perceived."

Read more: [Link: www.fresnobee.com...]

75 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:00:18pm

re: #61 allegro

The near recession? I promise you that Texas is feeling the REAL recession as much an anyone. The jobs being created here that Perry is so proud of are not living wage jobs. The reason for the reported low unemplyment is because most unemployed people are screwed out of the unemployment they paid into by a corrupt board that is stacked 3 to 2 against them.

Texas is also experiencing a growth in oil jobs, with shale opening up new deposits. Shale plus the new Canadian tar sands is resulting in refining capacity being increased in Texas. Those oil jobs are high-paying. So it isn't all at Wal-Mart, I can tell you that.

76 FreedomMoon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:00:41pm

re: #66 lostlakehiker

A job that pays poorly still pays more than no job. People are voting with their feet. Oh, and any job pays a living wage. You won't die of hunger because you cannot afford 2500 calories a day. You won't die of exposure because you can't afford any legal housing.

Since when is sub-mediocrity what we aim for?

77 allegro  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:01:20pm

re: #66 lostlakehiker

A job that pays poorly still pays more than no job. People are voting with their feet. Oh, and any job pays a living wage. You won't die of hunger because you cannot afford 2500 calories a day. You won't die of exposure because you can't afford any legal housing.

I am at a loss at the moment to express my reaction to the cruelty and ugliness of this post. Are you really this vicious or is it ignorance beyond comprehension?

78 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:01:46pm

I think it's time to hand out bootstraps instead of foodstamps.

79 Mocking Jay  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:02:09pm

re: #76 tacuba14

Since when is sub-mediocrity what we aim for?

We need to change "Don't Tread on Me" to "Would You Like Fries with That?"

80 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:02:11pm

re: #69 Atlas Fails

His New Hampshire-centered strategy makes sense on paper, but is incredibly risky. Don't forget, Hillary tried the same thing in '08.

His other big early state is Michigan. The Romney name is still warmly regarded there (a legacy of Mitt's father) and he should be able to win decisively there as well.

81 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:02:48pm

re: #62 jaunte

He's too Mormon for a lot of voters who will happily vote for Perry.

Hey, we have at least one regular conservative lizard already willing to admit he would never vote for Romney based on his religion!

82 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:04:07pm

re: #81 bratwurst

Hey, we have at least one regular conservative lizard already willing to admit he would never vote for Romney based on his religion!

Who? I know it's not me.

83 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:04:17pm

re: #81 bratwurst

I don't think it's something many voters will openly admit, but they do act on it.

84 Mocking Jay  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:04:24pm

re: #81 bratwurst

Hey, we have at least one regular conservative lizard already willing to admit he would never vote for Romney based on his religion!

For real?

85 albusteve  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:04:42pm

re: #80 Dark_Falcon

His other big early state is Michigan. The Romney name is still warmly regarded there (a legacy of Mitt's father) and he should be able to win decisively there as well.

the media will make that choice....discounting the MSM in all the astute predictions is foolhardy...I'd say MI is up for grabs, regardless of Romneys legacy...most of those believers are long dead

86 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:06:43pm

re: #66 lostlakehiker

A job that pays poorly still pays more than no job. People are voting with their feet. Oh, and any job pays a living wage. You won't die of hunger because you cannot afford 2500 calories a day. You won't die of exposure because you can't afford any legal housing.

Spoken like someone who has never had to worry about the heat being turned off or their trailer being towed away.

87 docproto48  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:08:19pm

re: #5 BigPapa

The Tea Party wants to have elections with straw polls. It's in the Constitution.

and the bible

88 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:08:20pm

Good Night to my fellow Lizards.

89 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:08:21pm

re: #66 lostlakehiker

A job that pays poorly still pays more than no job. People are voting with their feet. Oh, and any job pays a living wage. You won't die of hunger because you cannot afford 2500 calories a day. You won't die of exposure because you can't afford any legal housing.

The 'nice' part of me hopes you never have such a job.

90 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:10:09pm

re: #86 Atlas Fails

Spoken like someone who has never had to worry about the heat being turned off or their trailer being towed away.

Who needs a living wage and a place to live when dozens of dumpsters are available?

91 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:10:12pm

I'd rather not mention the name...but his comment did (rightfully) land him in the bottom 10 a few days back. The fact that someone would be willing to make such a bigoted confession in a place like this doesn't exactly bode well for Mitt IMO.

92 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:11:30pm

re: #86 Atlas Fails

Spoken like someone who has never had to worry about the heat being turned off or their trailer being towed away.

Don't you know how GOOD the poor have it in this country? According to The Heritage Foundation most of them have BOTH refrigerators and microwaves...I am not exaggerating! /

93 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:11:52pm

Charles, I'm reposting from a Page by GGT
A recent comment got me wondering.
Have you considered allowing Page authors to delete, gray out or somehow be able to priority request a comment deletion from their own Page?

94 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:12:03pm

re: #81 bratwurst

Hey, we have at least one regular conservative lizard already willing to admit he would never vote for Romney based on his religion!

I wish *I* had Magic Underwear.

95 Mocking Jay  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:12:59pm

re: #92 bratwurst

Don't you know how GOOD the poor have it in this country? According to The Heritage Foundation most of them have BOTH refrigerators and microwaves...I am not exaggerating! /


The ingrates!

96 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:14:21pm

re: #92 bratwurst

Don't you know how GOOD the poor have it in this country? According to The Heritage Foundation most of them have BOTH refrigerators and microwaves...I am not exaggerating! /

You forgot a color TV
/

97 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:14:41pm

re: #44 Let'sTalk

I really don't want to have another Texas Governor in the White House. We're still reeling from the last one.

He's not like George W. Bush, he's more conservative, sayeth Perry's spokespeep. Conservative in the social way. Ugh

98 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:14:48pm

re: #92 bratwurst

Don't you know how GOOD the poor have it in this country? According to The Heritage Foundation most of them have BOTH refrigerators and microwaves...I am not exaggerating! /

Some of those bastards even have air conditioning. Can you imagine that? Poor people living in 100 degree plus weather with air conditioning?

//

99 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:15:27pm

re: #96 HoosierHoops

You forgot a color TV
/

I heard some even have electrical lighting.

//

100 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:15:40pm

re: #92 bratwurst

Don't you know how GOOD the poor have it in this country? According to The Heritage Foundation most of them have BOTH refrigerators and microwaves...I am not exaggerating! /

Stephen Colbert:

"The report proves that the poor are just not living down to our expectations. If you still have the strength to brush the flies off your eyeballs, you're just not really poor."
101 albusteve  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:15:41pm

not this again

102 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:15:47pm

re: #96 HoosierHoops

You forgot a color TV
/

Tell me it ain't so.

103 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:16:14pm

re: #92 bratwurst

Don't you know how GOOD the poor have it in this country? According to The Heritage Foundation most of them have BOTH refrigerators and microwaves...I am not exaggerating! /

Friend of mine volunteers at an NGO that tries to keep people's electricity from being turned off. She'll be impressed.

104 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:16:25pm

re: #94 austin_blue

I wish *I* had Magic Underwear.

To me, special underwear is the same as a hijab: It goes in the "so what?" bin. I don't care if Romney and Huntsman wear such things, just as long as they are effective leaders. It's within their rights and they're hurting no one, so its not a issue.

105 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:17:22pm

re: #98 Gus 802

Some of those bastards even have air conditioning. Can you imagine that? Poor people living in 100 degree plus weather with air conditioning?

//

It actually got all the way down into the low 80s today for a couple of hours. NEW ICE AGE.

106 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:17:41pm

re: #103 Decatur Deb

Friend of mine volunteers at an NGO that tries to keep people's electricity from being turned off. She'll be impressed.

Pfft. John Galt never needed electricity. They people can do the same.

//

107 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:17:44pm

Y'all know that Wal-Mart could charge even less for their Chinese products if they didn't have to pay this outrageous, socialistic, un-Christian minimum wage the pinko Congress has oppressed us with.
/

108 Mocking Jay  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:17:51pm

re: #96 HoosierHoops

You forgot a color TV
/

I know, right!?! And they have every color!! I honestly think higher-end (rich people) TVs should have extra colors that you don't get on the garden-variety Vizio...

109 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:18:26pm

re: #103 Decatur Deb

Friend of mine volunteers at an NGO that tries to keep people's electricity from being turned off. She'll be impressed.

Insert Glib Sarcasm about still having TV's so they can keep watching Fox News (here).

110 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:19:01pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

I think we need not worry about the religiosity of the Mormon candidates. The fundies are another issue, given some of the statements made.

111 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:20:23pm

re: #92 bratwurst

Don't you know how GOOD the poor have it in this country? According to The Heritage Foundation most of them have BOTH refrigerators and microwaves...I am not exaggerating! /

Jesus said the poor would always be among us, so trying to eradicate poverty is against Scripture!!!

I wish I made that up, but I actually read such a sentiment from (who else) Victoria Jackson on WND a few weeks back. I still haven't completely stopped facepalming.

112 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:23:13pm

re: #111 Atlas Fails

I wish I made that up, but I actually read such a sentiment from (who else) Victoria Jackson on WND a few weeks back. I still haven't completely stopped facepalming.

There's nothing on the right so crazy that you won't find it at Weird Nut Daily. The only thing you can't find there is sanity.

113 docproto48  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:23:25pm

Perry seems to be worried about satan and the demons out there. I'm mor worried about the zombies (see photos of the crowd at his unconstitutional prayer event

114 docproto48  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:25:19pm

re: #113 proto87

Perry seems to be worried about satan and the demons out there. I'm more worried about the zombies (see photos of the crowd at his unconstitutional prayer event)

jez its rubbing off on me already, I can't spell any more

115 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:26:18pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

To me, special underwear is the same as a hijab: It goes in the "so what?" bin. I don't care if Romney and Huntsman wear such things, just as long as they are effective leaders. It's within their rights and they're hurting no one, so its not a issue.

Agreed.

But I'll repeat: I wish *I* had Magic Underwear.

Really. I'd feel so much, I don't know, BETTER than everyone else if i was in the League Of Men With Special Underwear! With Arcane Symbology stitched thereon!

Religion is funny that way.

I was raised Catholic and didn't really realize until my teens that the mass is built around a commonal belief in actual Ritual Cannibalism. You can't spin Transubstantiation any other way. It isn't symbolic in any way. It is what it is and It Is Eating God.

116 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:26:44pm

re: #111 Atlas Fails

I wish I made that up, but I actually read such a sentiment from (who else) Victoria Jackson on WND a few weeks back. I still haven't completely stopped facepalming.

Actually, that's brilliant. There is a nobility about being poor (doing much with little) in many cultures and stories throughout human history. From my minimal experience with Catholicism, seems to be a teaching of Jesus himself (who still strikes me as a pinko commy bleeding heart liberal). Today's conservatives seem to hold being poor as a character flaw and are in serious hypocrisy considering this.

I don't have the time or writing skills to hammer this righteously.

117 jamesfirecat  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:27:21pm

re: #66 lostlakehiker

A job that pays poorly still pays more than no job. People are voting with their feet. Oh, and any job pays a living wage. You won't die of hunger because you cannot afford 2500 calories a day. You won't die of exposure because you can't afford any legal housing.

I've been working at my start up for near a year now and am making $300 a month now... glad to know that you consider this a "living wage" guess I should see about moving out of my parents basement and into the real world with no financial worries!

118 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:27:38pm

re: #77 allegro

I am at a loss at the moment to express my reaction to the cruelty and ugliness of this post. Are you really this vicious or is it ignorance beyond comprehension?

Quite concur (df) That any human being could type that. we are fucked. they are 50%

119 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:27:55pm

"Daddy. When I grow up I want to move to Texas and make a 'living wage' working at Wal-Mart or Taco Bell and live in Section 8 housing!"

"Why son I'm proud of you."

120 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:28:10pm

re: #115 austin_blue

Agreed.

But I'll repeat: I wish *I* had Magic Underwear.

Really. I'd feel so much, I don't know, BETTER than everyone else if i was in the League Of Men With Special Underwear! With Arcane Symbology stitched thereon!

Religion is funny that way.

I was raised Catholic and didn't really realize until my teens that the mass is built around a commonal belief in actual Ritual Cannibalism. You can't spin Transubstantiation any other way. It isn't symbolic in any way. It is what it is and It Is Eating God.

When did God yell 'EAT ME'?

121 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:31:00pm

Image: 999x.jpg

Anti-riot policemen stand in front of far-right demonstrators during the first gay pride festival in the Czech capital on August 13, 2011 in Prague. Some 300 police were on duty to prevent the sort of clashes that marred a gay march in Brno, the country's second city, in 2008. The five-day festival, which began on August 10, 2011, sparked controversy long before it started as a top aide to conservative President Vaclav Klaus labelled gays as deviants.

122 allegro  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:33:03pm

re: #121 Gus 802

Image: 999x.jpg

Anti-riot policemen stand in front of far-right demonstrators during the first gay pride festival in the Czech capital on August 13, 2011 in Prague.

I see what you did there, You are such a bad, bad boy.

123 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:33:35pm

re: #120 b_sharp

When did God yell 'EAT ME'?

Sometime in the 16th century, apparently.

124 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:33:49pm

re: #112 Dark_Falcon

There's nothing on the right so crazy that you won't find it at Weird Nut Daily. The only thing you can't find there is sanity.

I know, sometimes I feel guilty for making fun of them. It's like laughing at a blind kid for sucking at baseball. But some of their wingnuttery is just too hilarious to resist.

125 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:34:49pm

re: #118 Stanley Sea

Quite concur (df) That any human being could type that. we are fucked. they are 50%

It's better than it ever was--not going to be a short war.

126 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:35:01pm

re: #121 Gus 802

Nice to see another true patriot taking back his country.

127 kirkspencer  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:35:08pm

re: #69 Atlas Fails

His New Hampshire-centered strategy makes sense on paper, but is incredibly risky. Don't forget, Hillary tried the same thing in '08.

General guide at this point: Guess the top three at NH, IA, and SC. Now go through the list of all the candidates. Anyone who doesn't get a first or who doesn't get at least two of the second/third positions is a non-player and will quit before super Tuesday. Well, everyone except Ron Paul, that is.

Iowa will look a lot like today's poll, except Perry will move into first or second. New Hampshire is (so far) Romney's, with Perry and Bachmann getting the other two places. South Carolina as of a month ago was Romney, Palin, Bachmann, Cain. I list four because Palin isn't running yet she's a large pull. Most second choices have split her numbers between Perry and Bachmann. That brings Perry up close to Cain and Bachmann almost tied with Romney.

That's the race as I see it. Romney, Perry, and Bachmann, in just about that order, with Cain as dark horse (no pun intended) and Palin as kingmaker.

If Perry or Bachmann can get the other's votes, they've got the nomination. If they keep duking it out, neither reaches the magic 50%+1 and we get it settled at the convention.

128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:35:21pm

Banging around Netflix... looking for a good Chinese film...

Any recommendations?

(not martial arts... just a nice film)

129 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:35:53pm

re: #124 Atlas Fails

I know, sometimes I feel guilty for making fun of them. It's like laughing at a blind kid for sucking at baseball. But some of their wingnuttery is just too hilarious to resist.

Unlike the kid, those loons at WND choose to be blind. To blazes with them! All they do is spew fear, hate and irrationality.

130 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:36:31pm

re: #122 allegro

I see what you did there, You are such a bad, bad boy.

They kind of look like the EDL assholes. But yeah. The bolding is just the truth.

131 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:37:17pm

re: #117 jamesfirecat

I've been working at my start up for near a year now and am making $300 a month now... glad to know that you consider this a "living wage" guess I should see about moving out of my parents basement and into the real world with no financial worries!

We were evicted from our 'ole in the ground; we 'ad to go and live in a lake.

Youtube Video
132 Decatur Deb  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:37:41pm

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Banging around Netflix... looking for a good Chinese film...

Any recommendations?

(not martial arts... just a nice film)

"Raise High the Red Lantern", though it's been around the block.

133 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:37:56pm

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Banging around Netflix... looking for a good Chinese film...

Any recommendations?

(not martial arts... just a nice film)

Funny you should mention.
[Link: www.imdb.com...]

Saw that recently. I'm only about 80% sure I understand it, but if I did, it's pretty damned good.

134 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:40:20pm

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Banging around Netflix... looking for a good Chinese film...

Any recommendations?

(not martial arts... just a nice film)

Machete.

Well, it's not Chinese, and it's not really a 'nice' film, but it kicks ass.

135 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:40:26pm

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Banging around Netflix... looking for a good Chinese film...

Any recommendations?

(not martial arts... just a nice film)

The Colts are on TV live for the first time this year...4th quarter and they have got the holy crap beat out of them tonight by the Rams...
Hurrah pre season...It's like the primary for politics...At first you get the sh*t kicked out of you then you either get better or get worse..Get busy living or get busy dying..

136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:44:32pm

re: #132 Decatur Deb

That's "ish" what I'm looking for. That is a visually stunning movie.

re: #133 negativ

Dang! Not available.

137 freetoken  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:45:30pm

re: #127 kirkspencer

If come next July the GOP ticket looks like it'll be Perry/Bachmann then the Obama team ought to be happy that they'd be running against such stereotypical far-right theocrats.

138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:45:40pm

re: #134 b_sharp

Danny Trejo... ugly little buggar... he is a great story.

139 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:48:52pm

re: #128 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Banging around Netflix... looking for a good Chinese film...

Any recommendations?

(not martial arts... just a nice film)

Too bad martial art films are out...... Ip Man is fantastic and it's on Instant Play ........ Ip Man 2 is on Instant Play now also..... I just may check that one out tonight.

140 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:51:33pm

re: #139 Mr Pancakes

Okay. You got me. Thanks.

141 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:51:43pm

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Danny Trejo... ugly little buggar... he is a great story.

Ugly, but he's fierce looking.

142 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:53:18pm

re: #120 b_sharp

When did God yell 'EAT ME'?

The christology is really a mess. Especially when you get into Roman vs. conservative Protestant (conservative at the time of the reformation) vs. liberal Protestant vs. rabid radical Protestant views on the subject. In a real way it's probably the source of more death than any other theological question in Christianity. Wiki has a good start [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Follow that Rabbit if you dare...

143 palomino  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:55:50pm

re: #30 Dark_Falcon

He could win North Carolina and Tennessee, IMO, if he gets enough early momentum and wins Florida. Then he puts major effort into the Midwest. Go to Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio. Use those states to get the needed delegates and don't worry too much about the South in the primaries.

At this point in history, I don't it's realistic to think someone can win the gop nod by "not worrying too much about the South."

It's the party's stronghold, and gop politicians ignore it at their peril.

144 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:57:15pm

I'm signing off. I had to do a lot of wheelchair pushing today, and I'm very tired.

145 Mr Pancakes  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:59:11pm

re: #140 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay. You got me. Thanks.

You'll like it...... I watched it twice.

146 palomino  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 7:59:22pm

re: #57 lostlakehiker


That's not altogether irrelevant. Texas is, or can be painted as, somewhat of an exception to the near-recession gripping the nation.

Texas has 8.2% unemployment, and is preparing to lay off nearly 100,000 state employees, which will of course push that number higher. The term "Texas Miracle" is a laughable overstatement.

147 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:01:10pm

re: #116 BigPapa

Actually, that's brilliant. There is a nobility about being poor (doing much with little) in many cultures and stories throughout human history. From my minimal experience with Catholicism, seems to be a teaching of Jesus himself (who still strikes me as a pinko commy bleeding heart liberal). Today's conservatives seem to hold being poor as a character flaw and are in serious hypocrisy considering this.

I don't have the time or writing skills to hammer this righteously.

There's a nobility about gamely soldiering on when your best efforts come to little. And the poor are not prey to some of the temptations that bedevil and ensnare the rich.

How, though, is it noble to be poor because a life of idleness suits you and the State has been kind enough to see to your material needs, IPhone included? And to riot if the prospect is dim for a priority upgrade to an IPhone5?

There's cause for legitimate complaint, on moral grounds, against that segment of the population. Their poverty is not entirely their own fault, because the State has made this ignoble way of life feasible and it's wrong to tempt people. But it's partly their own fault. Other people with no more talent or energy, living in that same society, find a way to fit in and contribute. They find a mate and stick with him or her, raise a couple of kids maybe, and teach them right from wrong. And they do it on really no more money, even though they're working and the other bloke isn't.

148 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:03:53pm

re: #117 jamesfirecat

I've been working at my start up for near a year now and am making $300 a month now... glad to know that you consider this a "living wage" guess I should see about moving out of my parents basement and into the real world with no financial worries!

Are you dead? No. You're alive. My point exactly. My complaint is with the hyperbolic rhetoric of the phrase "living wage". It is not life and death that hangs in the balance.

149 palomino  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:04:27pm

re: #147 lostlakehiker


How, though, is it noble to be poor because a life of idleness suits you and the State has been kind enough to see to your material needs, IPhone included? And to riot if the prospect is dim for a priority upgrade to an IPhone5?

Oh please, enough with the urban legend that folks on welfare live large. Are you next gonna tell us about the welfare queen who feeds her pets sirloin steak because food stamps don't cover pet food?

150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:05:19pm

re: #139 Mr Pancakes

The closed captions are hysterical.

151 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:05:47pm

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

About three feet nothing, too.

But a great story.

152 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:06:00pm

re: #145 Mr Pancakes

You'll like it... I watched it twice.

Once backwards.

153 BishopX  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:06:47pm

re: #147 lostlakehiker

You sir are an idiot. Not only are your talking points almost fifteen years out of date, but you display a stunning lack of comprehension of what it's like to be poor in America.

America does not have a vast class of unemployed layabouts collecting government assistance. We have a vast class of working poor collecting government assistance because they are not being paid enough to survive.

154 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:07:12pm

re: #148 lostlakehiker

Are you dead? No. You're alive. My point exactly. My complaint is with the hyperbolic rhetoric of the phrase "living wage". It is not life and death that hangs in the balance.

It's not? So where do you get this imaginary and largely annecdotal conclusions from? Have you considered the ability to get proper healthcare when you're living on your so called "living wage". Or dental care that can prevent abscesses and infections that sometimes can lead to death? Or having to live in the rough part of town with high crime rates? Please tell us more Free Market Jesus.

155 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:08:23pm

re: #148 lostlakehiker

Are you dead? No. You're alive. My point exactly. My complaint is with the hyperbolic rhetoric of the phrase "living wage". It is not life and death that hangs in the balance.

Tell that to the homeless who have frozen to death or died of heat stroke.

156 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:08:40pm

re: #154 Gus 802

It's a little odd. Obviously poverty contributes to death.

157 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:09:56pm

re: #148 lostlakehiker

Are you dead? No. You're alive. My point exactly. My complaint is with the hyperbolic rhetoric of the phrase "living wage". It is not life and death that hangs in the balance.

And who the hell do you think are getting these minimum wage jobs? Do you think the local cabinet factory or McDonald's is going to hire some 55 year old office worker? Some people can't even get minimum wage jobs due to age, health, etc. So that "living wage" become even drastically lower requiring public assistance.

158 palomino  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:10:42pm

re: #154 Gus 802

It's not? So where do you get this imaginary and largely annecdotal conclusions from? Have you considered the ability to get proper healthcare when you're living on your so called "living wage". Or dental care that can prevent abscesses and infections that sometimes can lead to death? Or having to live in the rough part of town with high crime rates? Please tell us more Free Market Jesus.

I've always found it both hysterical and unsettling that so many American Christians think Jesus was some sort of laissez-faire conservative free marketeer. The reality of his teachings is of course far different.

159 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:11:00pm

re: #157 Gus 802

The fact that a lot of people work two or three jobs in order to have food, shelter, and housing is rather important, too.

160 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:11:02pm

re: #148 lostlakehiker

Are you dead? No. You're alive. My point exactly. My complaint is with the hyperbolic rhetoric of the phrase "living wage". It is not life and death that hangs in the balance.

You don't understand the concept of "living wage". Is one alive? Duh. Can one actually live a life, start a family they can provide for, save up money, have a retirement, and have some certainty that the job they have this week will still be there next week?

It's not hyperbolic at all. You need to stop making up your own literal definition of the term and recognize it means something else to everyone discussing it.

161 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:11:26pm

re: #148 lostlakehiker

Kindly piss off.

Signed,
Varek, Poor American Sith Lord.

162 makeitstop  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:11:32pm

re: #90 b_sharp

Who needs a living wage and a place to live when dozens of dumpsters are available?

Are there no prisons? Are there no poorhouses?

/ still dumbstruck at the original comment

163 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:11:53pm

re: #147 lostlakehiker

There's a nobility about gamely soldiering on when your best efforts come to little. And the poor are not prey to some of the temptations that bedevil and ensnare the rich.

How, though, is it noble to be poor because a life of idleness suits you and the State has been kind enough to see to your material needs, IPhone included? And to riot if the prospect is dim for a priority upgrade to an IPhone5?

There's cause for legitimate complaint, on moral grounds, against that segment of the population. Their poverty is not entirely their own fault, because the State has made this ignoble way of life feasible and it's wrong to tempt people. But it's partly their own fault. Other people with no more talent or energy, living in that same society, find a way to fit in and contribute. They find a mate and stick with him or her, raise a couple of kids maybe, and teach them right from wrong. And they do it on really no more money, even though they're working and the other bloke isn't.

Nice strawman!

164 freetoken  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:13:55pm

re: #160 Spocomptonite

You don't understand the concept of "living wage". Is one alive? Duh. Can one actually live a life, start a family they can provide for, save up money, have a retirement, and have some certainty that the job they have this week will still be there next week?


My problem with the "living wage" phrase is that as too often proposed it doesn't really do what you have listed, or even come close.

Prices, including the price for a "family", for "retirement", arise competitively based on both supply of what is desired, as well as the demand.

165 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:14:13pm

re: #147 lostlakehiker

How, though, is it noble to be poor because a life of idleness suits you and the State has been kind enough to see to your material needs, IPhone included? And to riot if the prospect is dim for a priority upgrade to an IPhone5?

You're right. The 5 assholes on the entire planet like that are not noble. Now how about we talk about the millions of other people that aren't like that?

167 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:14:47pm

[Link: video.adultswim.com...]

I miss that show lots and lots.

168 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:15:16pm

re: #164 freetoken

My problem with the "living wage" phrase is that as too often proposed it doesn't really do what you have listed, or even come close.

Prices, including the price for a "family", for "retirement", arise competitively based on both supply of what is desired, as well as the demand.

But would you agree that it is not "a wage that prevents you from dying today from sub 2500-caloric daily intake"?

169 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:15:25pm

re: #167 negativ

[Link: video.adultswim.com...]

I miss that show lots and lots.

ZORAK! Were you sitting in my chair???

170 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:16:18pm

re: #147 lostlakehiker

How, though, is it noble to be poor because a life of idleness suits you and the State has been kind enough to see to your material needs, IPhone included? And to riot if the prospect is dim for a priority upgrade to an IPhone5?

The poor riot? Does that disturb your middle class sensibilities? The poor rarely riot for economic reasons. The vast majority of poor in this country are located in Appalachia and other more bucolic surroundings. Yes, occasionally the poor riot. But while the poor riot the rich start wars and subjugate the masses for their own selfish needs. This concept may be foreign to you as in the working poor who slave every day to bring food to the table and massive profits for the factory owners.

171 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:17:07pm

re: #168 Spocomptonite

You might not die from lack of food on a not-quite-living wage, but you could die from lack of health insurance.

172 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:19:05pm

re: #117 jamesfirecat

I've been working at my start up for near a year now and am making $300 a month now... glad to know that you consider this a "living wage" guess I should see about moving out of my parents basement and into the real world with no financial worries!

Am I mistaken, or did I think you said you had a job with a "boss" recently?

173 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:19:48pm

re: #147 lostlakehiker

I have to finish cooking dinner for my wife but i hope to come back to this later. My only point is at this juncture is that appears to me, on my short time on this little mudball, that the wealthy receive just as much help from the government as the poor. However if you're poor, there's shame attached to it.

Any 'help' the government 'gives' business for the noble cause of creating jobs is 'taxed' by the business owners or corporate masters to enable themselves to make more money. And for that, they are championed.

174 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:19:58pm

re: #171 jaunte

You might not die from lack of food on a not-quite-living wage, but you could die from lack of health insurance.

No you won't. You know why I am right.

175 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:20:00pm

re: #148 lostlakehiker

Are you dead? No. You're alive. My point exactly. My complaint is with the hyperbolic rhetoric of the phrase "living wage". It is not life and death that hangs in the balance.

While you're at it. Why don't you apply your little experiment to families. Try raising a family while earning minimum wage. Better yet, try being a single mother with one or more children earning a minimum wage.

176 Lidane  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:22:05pm

re: #22 goddamnedfrank

He can't win Texas, the Carolinas, Georgia, Alabama, TN, KY, OK, the list goes on. Do the math, the entire South except for Florida is probably out of his grasp at this point, and Florida ain't no sure thing. If his strategy consists of counting on New Hampshire and Michigan to create momentum he's going to lose, he's got to go negative and utterly destroy Perry, dig up some serious dirt, kneecap him in the press. Otherwise Romney is in deep trouble.

Yeah, this. The Bible Belt is filled with plenty of religious nutjob reactionaries who simply will not vote for a Mormon, since they believe Mormons are barely a half-step above Satanists. Just look at Romney's primary records from 2008 for proof.

If Romney hopes to have a prayer against the religious nutjob candidates like Bachmann and Perry, he has to go negative and destroy them in the press. He won't win otherwise.

177 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:23:36pm

re: #174 Naso Tang

Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance

The Harvard researchers analyzed data on about 9,000 patients tracked by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Center for Health Statistics through the year 2000. They excluded older Americans because those aged 65 or older are covered by the U.S. Medicare insurance program.

"For any doctor ... it's completely a no-brainer that people who can't get health care are going to die more from the kinds of things that health care is supposed to prevent," said Woolhandler, a professor of medicine at Harvard and a primary care physician in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

178 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:23:53pm

Israeli protests continue to gain momentum:

Youtube Video
179 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:24:00pm

re: #174 Naso Tang

No you won't. You know why I am right.

...

BECAUSE HOSPITALS WON'T TURN YOU AROUND IF YOU HAVE A SERIOUS OR FATAL ILLNESS!!11TY JUST GO TO TEH EMERGENCY ROOM!!11TY

Like that? Here's my answer to that: bullshit.

180 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:24:01pm

Sat. night..The Colts got the living crap beat out of them ( Who cares..Finally football)
I have killer food being delivered..( The nice thing about being in a college town during summer is you can call for a million different food joints and because nobody is here you get really fast delivery and service...Plus a ordered a half of a carrot cake..Gawd I'm feeling guilty )
I would have gone to the Oklahoma country dance except to see the Colts.. So this really wonderful older lady I meet last month at the Lodge has set me up for a blind date with her daughter...I can't believe I fell for it..She is a really older lady with a real thick accent and When she offered to set me up I just shook my head sure..Why not? What? a Date?
My buddies at the lodge were just laughing there asses of at me last night..You got set up dude! I hear she is pretty cute..Laughter..
I think they are lying to me...I have never in my life had a mother set me up with a date with her daughter.. generally they try to keep me away...
So next week I'm going to take this mystery lady to the most expensive restaurant I can find in Oklahoma..What the hell.. I still have to be friends with her mom at the lodge...She better be slim and cute...Cause it could be a long night..
I'm now watching the most awesome PBS show.. Joe Bonamassa live in London.. He is awesome...He is doing an interview right now during the break..

181 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:24:44pm

re: #171 jaunte

You might not die from lack of food on a not-quite-living wage, but you could die from lack of health insurance.

Oh, no need to remind me about that. I had my third ER visit this year earlier this week.
My point originally was a living wage includes the expense of being able to have a life that one can make long-term plans. While there are merits to a debate about what constitutes 'living wage', it's not the debate lostlakehiker was having. Being able to get 2500 calories on a day-to-day basis is like the threshold for abject poverty and international humanitarian aide need, not a 'living wage' just because it keeps you alive until the next day.

182 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:24:49pm

re: #180 HoosierHoops

AHEM.
*waves*

183 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:24:53pm

re: #173 BigPapa

I have to finish cooking dinner for my wife but i hope to come back to this later. My only point is at this juncture is that appears to me, on my short time on this little mudball, that the wealthy receive just as much help from the government as the poor. However if you're poor, there's shame attached to it.

There is no shame attached to the recipients of government help, that they care about.

The wealthy receive no help from the government that they haven't directly or indirectly paid for.

184 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:24:54pm

re: #174 Naso Tang

No you won't. You know why I am right.

I think your likely pretty misinformed on this issue.

185 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:25:07pm

re: #179 Gus 802

...

Like that? Here's my answer to that: bullshit.

Yep.
Just wait until your currently non serious condition gets serious.
Then you get healthcare!
What a world.

186 Lidane  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:25:15pm

re: #148 lostlakehiker

My complaint is with the hyperbolic rhetoric of the phrase "living wage". It is not life and death that hangs in the balance.

Oh, fuck off. A living wage isn't hyperbole. It's the amount of money person needs to earn to be able to meet their basic needs and survive.

187 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:26:18pm

re: #13 elisabeth

Santorum came in fourth (ahead of Perry and Romney) for crying out loud.

There, fixed!

188 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:26:29pm

re: #173 BigPapa

I have to finish cooking dinner for my wife but i hope to come back to this later. My only point is at this juncture is that appears to me, on my short time on this little mudball, that the wealthy receive just as much help from the government as the poor. However if you're poor, there's shame attached to it.

Any 'help' the government 'gives' business for the noble cause of creating jobs is 'taxed' by the business owners or corporate masters to enable themselves to make more money. And for that, they are championed.

A business is in business to make a profit, not to create jobs. What does create jobs is demand, so unless reduced business taxes somehow increases demand, money won't go into any pockets but the owner's.

189 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:27:31pm

'Investopedia' sez:

What Does Living Wage Mean? A theoretical wage level that allows the earner to afford adequate shelter, food and the other necessities of life. The living wage should be substantial enough to ensure that no more than 30% of it needs to be spent on housing. The goal of the living wage is to allow employees to earn enough income for a satisfactory standard of living.
[Link: www.investopedia.com...]
190 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:27:54pm

re: #77 allegro

I am at a loss at the moment to express my reaction to the cruelty and ugliness of this post. Are you really this vicious or is it ignorance beyond comprehension?

It is literal-mindedness. There is nothing cruel or ugly about the post. Merely accurate. $8 an hour, half time, comes to between 600 and 700 a month. If it's full time work, double that.

Two people sharing lodging can, and do, get by on that, in Texas and in much of the nation. Two people, me and mine, have in fact made a go of it from that kind of income [minimum wage], starting out. Our lives were not in danger. It wasn't a horror story. When I think back, I don't think, how unutterably awful it must be for anyone else to have to go through that.

What can possibly be cruel, ugly, or ignorant about a factually correct observation that even a minimum wage job, with halfway reasonable hours, provides enough to stay alive?

Keep in mind that the earned wage is supplemented in various ways, (and I applaud that) such as the earned income tax credit.

There's a mindset here, I guess it's because almost everyone does pretty well and has no clue what a thousand a month can buy in the way of food and lodging outside the high-cost regions.

I've damned well walked those miles. And before the EITC. I know how bad it is, and how bad it isn't, to get along on way less than most everybody else has. Including, without microwave, without dishwasher, without AC, and without TV of any sort, let alone flat screen.

The electricity won't be turned off if you pay the bill, and the bill won't come to much if you're not drawing on it except for fans and lighting and a decidedly non SubZero fridge.

I know it gets worse, a lot worse, if you don't have work and can't bring in anything. I've not been there or done that. But that's NOT what we were talking about.

191 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:29:16pm

re: #147 lostlakehiker

There's a nobility about gamely soldiering on when your best efforts come to little. And the poor are not prey to some of the temptations that bedevil and ensnare the rich.

How, though, is it noble to be poor because a life of idleness suits you and the State has been kind enough to see to your material needs, IPhone included? And to riot if the prospect is dim for a priority upgrade to an IPhone5?

There's cause for legitimate complaint, on moral grounds, against that segment of the population. Their poverty is not entirely their own fault, because the State has made this ignoble way of life feasible and it's wrong to tempt people. But it's partly their own fault. Other people with no more talent or energy, living in that same society, find a way to fit in and contribute. They find a mate and stick with him or her, raise a couple of kids maybe, and teach them right from wrong. And they do it on really no more money, even though they're working and the other bloke isn't.

I'm talking Britain. Remember? It wasn't that long ago they had their most recent riots.

192 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:29:20pm

re: #183 Naso Tang


The wealthy receive no help from the government that they haven't directly or indirectly paid for.

And if you haven't 'paid for it' then what? What of those who haven't paid for it? Are they all lazy and not worth supporting?

193 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:29:25pm

re: #185 Varek Raith

Yep.
Just wait until your currently non serious condition gets serious.
Then you get healthcare!
What a world.

People wait close to a year at Denver General. Sometimes for simple illnesses. Other get progressively worse while they wait. I waited close to 5 months. Nothing. And I have a rather large and serious umbilical hernia. Nothing. I was initially turned away at the ER. It's a load of crap. And when you finally get help they give you minimal treatment. Expect a lot of pain killers. Don't expect the best chemo therapy if you have cancer. Meanwhile, we're spending trillions bolstering our world empire and helping the rich line their pockets with the profits they make from the sweat and toil of the lower classes.

194 BishopX  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:29:58pm

re: #153 BishopX

20 percent of Walmart Employees in Washington State received state subsidized health insurance in 2004, compared to the 2% on the company plan.

Image: 2002758088.gif

Nationally walmart workers cost the taxpayers average of 2,103 dollars per year in state subsidized health care. A full time Wal-mart associate takes home about 16,000 dollars annually. The reason that people don't die when they're not making a living wage is that everyone else helps them out by giving them an extra eighth of their salary in government benefits.

195 freetoken  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:31:06pm

re: #168 Spocomptonite

But would you agree that it is not "a wage that prevents you from dying today from sub 2500-caloric daily intake"?

Well... I live on a sub 2500 Calorie diet...

I also have always been suspicious of the "living wage" phrase because it seems to me to be, well, beating around the bush.

The problem is poverty:

poverty |ˈpävərtē|
noun
• the state of being extremely poor : thousands of families are living in abject poverty.
• the state of being inferior in quality or insufficient in amount

Quality of life issues are difficult to parameterize, as they do seem to be quite relative to one's culture.

Americans have on the whole, especially during the last half of the 20th century, lived in a society of extreme wealth by the standards of other cultures and previous times.

Superabundance has led to the elimination of phenomena such as starvation, in this country at least and where social institutions are allowed to intervene in families that are failing to provide for their own.

I suggest that this was done not because of a "living wage" stipulation but rather because of an over-production of goods and services, which allows the excess to be redistributed to those who otherwise would have no means to have access to them.

It is this macroeconomic concept that controlled ("demand") economies have tried to avoid but ultimately they all fail because of trying to avoid this reality.

Our politicians, lamentable though they are, sort of hint at this problem when they repeat (as a mantra) that we need "more growth". While poorly phrased (and probably even more poorly understood), the idea is that increased production (i.e., "more growth") of goods and services is what is need to ensure those things which "living wage" proponents claim to want for people.

196 Lidane  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:31:27pm

re: #190 lostlakehiker


Tell you what -- you live on $8 right now. Today. Then tell me it's a living wage. Tell me that you could reasonably get by with an apartment, a car, and having to pay for food, clothing, and basic medical care with that income.

Fuck you. You have no idea what the hell you're even talking about.

197 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:31:41pm

re: #193 Gus 802

People wait close to a year at Denver General. Sometimes for simple illnesses. Other get progressively worse while they wait. I waited close to 5 months. Nothing. And I have a rather large and serious umbilical hernia. Nothing. I was initially turned away at the ER. It's a load of crap. And when you finally get help they give you minimal treatment. Expect a lot of pain killers. Don't expect the best chemo therapy if you have cancer. Meanwhile, we're spending trillions bolstering our world empire and helping the rich line their pockets with the profits they make from the sweat and toil of the lower classes.

And think of all the costs to the taxpayers that all of those uninsured ER vists mean. Fact is, it would save us all money if all Americans had some kind of insurance.

198 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:32:05pm

Oh, interesting anecdote related to ER care with or without insurance:

Almost a year ago, I went to the ER in city X with appendicitis symptoms. I did not have insurance at the time. I had a CT scan, which showed that it was my appendix and it was inflamed, but they wouldn't take it out because "it wasn't so inflamed as to warrant surgery to remove it."

Fast forward to earlier this week. This time, I went to the ER in city Y with more severe appendicitis symptoms. And this time, I had insurance. Same CT scan (I might glow in the dark now), showed inflammation, but this time they take it out. Upon hearing that I had been in another ER not 11 months ago for the same symptoms and same conclusion, every doctor and nurse rhetorically asked why they didn't take it out then.

HMMMMM.

199 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:32:53pm

re: #147 lostlakehiker

There's a nobility about gamely soldiering on when your best efforts come to little. And the poor are not prey to some of the temptations that bedevil and ensnare the rich.

How, though, is it noble to be poor because a life of idleness suits you and the State has been kind enough to see to your material needs, IPhone included? And to riot if the prospect is dim for a priority upgrade to an IPhone5?

There's cause for legitimate complaint, on moral grounds, against that segment of the population. Their poverty is not entirely their own fault, because the State has made this ignoble way of life feasible and it's wrong to tempt people. But it's partly their own fault. Other people with no more talent or energy, living in that same society, find a way to fit in and contribute. They find a mate and stick with him or her, raise a couple of kids maybe, and teach them right from wrong. And they do it on really no more money, even though they're working and the other bloke isn't.

Did you write that all by yourself or did you copy and paste from some latter-day Ebenezer Scrooge (aka Rush Limbaugh) blog?

200 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:32:58pm

re: #177 jaunte

Yes, I take your point. However it is more complex than that. People without health insurance can get medical help, but the reasons they don't as much is not simply because they can't afford it (they can in an ER), but because of social attitudes.

A minor example, a year ago I saw a rental tenant with a grandson visiting, about 10, who showed me a tooth about to come out. He and grandmother thought it was a baby tooth with another coming; at 10!!

It was severe cavities at that age, and these were not people I would call bottom of the social scale. They were nice people.

201 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:34:39pm

re: #184 Alexzander

I think your likely pretty misinformed on this issue.

I think you buy the simplistic version.

202 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:35:00pm

re: #200 Naso Tang

Yes, poor health education and general ignorance do play a part.

203 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:35:44pm

re: #190 lostlakehiker

There's a mindset here, I guess it's because almost everyone does pretty well and has no clue what a thousand a month can buy in the way of food and lodging outside the high-cost regions.

What you're going to tell them to move to find low cost regions? The masses of poor living who might be living on minimum wage jobs? Then where will they work once they relocate to this "low cost region". This sort of defeats the purpose.

204 makeitstop  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:38:02pm

CBS Radio's spin on Bachmann's win is that 'she's got a good organization and can get her followers to do what she wants them to do.'

No shit. That's exactly what they said.

205 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:38:23pm

re: #194 BishopX

20 percent of Walmart Employees in Washington State received state subsidized health insurance in 2004, compared to the 2% on the company plan.

Image: 2002758088.gif

Nationally walmart workers cost the taxpayers average of 2,103 dollars per year in state subsidized health care. A full time Wal-mart associate takes home about 16,000 dollars annually. The reason that people don't die when they're not making a living wage is that everyone else helps them out by giving them an extra eighth of their salary in government benefits.

That's part of the context. It's a given, in this society, that when you work and it still doesn't come to all that much, then society chips in. This is good. It encourages everyone to try their best, and when that best affords only a meager living, the rest of us kick in some.

People, of course, die even if they're rich. I'm not trying to say that the poor are immortal, or even that they get the best health care. For that matter, the rich don't always get the best health care. But the care is good enough that the lifespan gap between middle class, and those who steer clear of paths that will both impoverish them and trash their health, but who are poor anyhow, is maybe two or three years. If that.

206 Lidane  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:38:59pm

re: #203 Gus 802

What you're going to tell them to move to find low cost regions? The masses of poor living who might be living on minimum wage jobs? Then where will they work once they relocate to this "low cost region". This sort of defeats the purpose.

Who cares if it inconveniences them? Or if it costs them their jobs to move to that mythical "low cost region"?

You're upsetting the narrative. Don't you know that people should be able to easily get by on $8/hour in this day and age?

207 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:39:18pm

re: #179 Gus 802

...

BECAUSE HOSPITALS WON'T TURN YOU AROUND IF YOU HAVE A SERIOUS OR FATAL ILLNESS!!11TY JUST GO TO TEH EMERGENCY ROOM!!11TY

Like that? Here's my answer to that: bullshit.

It's bullshit all right. Emergency rooms can't turn you away if you come in with an acute condition. They treat you and then release you once you become stable.

But if you have a long term condition (G-D help you if it's PRE-EXISTING), like, oh I don't know, cancer, you are SOL.

208 BishopX  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:40:02pm

re: #195 freetoken

28 percent of children seen at Boston Medical center last year were underweight. 17 percent showed signs of malnutrition. Not everyone in America lives in a state of super abundance. Poverty as defined by living in a situation where you are unable to provide a sufficient quality or quantity of food to allow your child to grow is very much present in America today.

209 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:41:10pm

re: #190 lostlakehiker

It is literal-mindedness. There is nothing cruel or ugly about the post. Merely accurate. $8 an hour, half time, comes to between 600 and 700 a month. If it's full time work, double that.

Two people sharing lodging can, and do, get by on that, in Texas and in much of the nation. Two people, me and mine, have in fact made a go of it from that kind of income [minimum wage], starting out. Our lives were not in danger. It wasn't a horror story. When I think back, I don't think, how unutterably awful it must be for anyone else to have to go through that.

What can possibly be cruel, ugly, or ignorant about a factually correct observation that even a minimum wage job, with halfway reasonable hours, provides enough to stay alive?

Keep in mind that the earned wage is supplemented in various ways, (and I applaud that) such as the earned income tax credit.

There's a mindset here, I guess it's because almost everyone does pretty well and has no clue what a thousand a month can buy in the way of food and lodging outside the high-cost regions.

I've damned well walked those miles. And before the EITC. I know how bad it is, and how bad it isn't, to get along on way less than most everybody else has. Including, without microwave, without dishwasher, without AC, and without TV of any sort, let alone flat screen.

The electricity won't be turned off if you pay the bill, and the bill won't come to much if you're not drawing on it except for fans and lighting and a decidedly non SubZero fridge.

I know it gets worse, a lot worse, if you don't have work and can't bring in anything. I've not been there or done that. But that's NOT what we were talking about.

Hmm.

Rent - two bedroom; $900.00/mth
Power - $90.00/mth
School supplies/lunches - $40.00/mth
Bus pass - $35.00/mth (adult) $20.00/mth (student)
Food - $300.00/mth
Phone - $20.00/mth

What have I missed?

210 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:41:45pm

Gap in Life Expectancy Widens for the Nation

2008: New government research has found “large and growing” disparities in life expectancy for richer and poorer Americans, paralleling the growth of income inequality in the last two decades.


It's not a big deal unless it's your four years.

211 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:43:01pm

re: #207 Alouette

Like that? Here's my answer to that: bullshit.

It's bullshit all right. Emergency rooms can't turn you away if you come in with an acute condition. They treat you and then release you once you become stable.

But if you have a long term condition (G-D help you if it's PRE-EXISTING), like, oh I don't know, cancer, you are SOL.

Yep. They'll call it a chronic condition. This includes public hospitals. All they're required to do is stabilize or "treat" the acute condition. If it's an acute condition as symptom of the chronic condition they'll still only treat the acute symptoms. Once you're stabilized, they kick you out of the hospital. There are guidelines that define stabilized.

212 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:43:06pm

Meaning of the Straw Poll is that there is None.

How is everyone?

213 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:43:14pm

I'm out of here.

214 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:43:31pm

re: #190 lostlakehiker

I'm going to assume that, if you ever were poor, it was in a comfortable, inexpensive region.
But wouldn't you know it? minimum wage in the country is a lot different than minimum wage in the city. It doesn't even have to be minimum wage. Have you ever heard of the problems facing school teachers in rich districts like, say, Aspen, or Mercer Island? They are salaried and still have to either live in a garage that costs them half their wages in rent or live 2 or more hours away that costs them major time and money.

So, in summary, I challenge you to work part-time at a McDonalds near Pershing or Times Square and get back to me with your experiences. Let me know if it changes your mind at all.

215 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:43:34pm

re: #205 lostlakehiker

But the care is good enough that the lifespan gap between middle class, and those who steer clear of paths that will both impoverish them and trash their health, but who are poor anyhow, is maybe two or three years. If that.

Let me guess: you have no proof of this. You're asserting it because you ideologically need it to be so.

216 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:43:49pm

re: #211 Gus 802

Yep. They'll call it a chronic condition. This includes public hospitals. All they're required to do is stabilize or "treat" the acute condition. If it's an acute condition as symptom of the chronic condition they'll still only treat the acute symptoms. Once you're stabilized, they kick you out of the hospital. There are guidelines that define stabilized.

That was supposed to be my response. Sometimes the quoting function messes up.

217 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:44:41pm

re: #203 Gus 802

What you're going to tell them to move to find low cost regions? The masses of poor living who might be living on minimum wage jobs? Then where will they work once they relocate to this "low cost region". This sort of defeats the purpose.

"Low cost regions" have lower cost of living, but corresponding lower salaries (if you are lucky enough to have a job)

I am making 67% of what I was making 10 years ago, but guess what! I am happy to even have a job!

218 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:45:56pm

Another Pages post that really deserves your retweets/facebook posts and emails.

If you are so inclined.

You know, it's my personal soap box.

219 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:47:09pm

re: #200 Naso Tang

Yes, I take your point. However it is more complex than that. People without health insurance can get medical help, but the reasons they don't as much is not simply because they can't afford it (they can in an ER), but because of social attitudes.

A minor example, a year ago I saw a rental tenant with a grandson visiting, about 10, who showed me a tooth about to come out. He and grandmother thought it was a baby tooth with another coming; at 10!!

It was severe cavities at that age, and these were not people I would call bottom of the social scale. They were nice people.

I work at a FQHC and most of our patients are uninsured or on Medicaid. We offer a variety of primary care services and please believe me when I tell you that when offer these services or a referral to see a specialist, they ask one question first: how much will it cost? And sometimes it's not the direct cost of the service, it's the cost of the gas or the cost of the medicine or the cost of taking off time from work. Yes, it's complicated and ignorance can play a role, but mostly it's cost. Most of our patients have low paying jobs with no benefits and can't get time off or don't want to take time off because they need every penny. Most don't have their own transportation and many drive in from small towns that don't have any health care facilities for low income people. Our city's county hospital, where many have to go to see a specialist has waiting lists that are months long. We are making appointments for people in December. And the ER is packed because of high numbers of uninsured people and the fact that some people are coming in from as far away as 30 miles. ERs are also the least economically efficient way to deliver health care. The USA should be ashamed to not have a universal health care system. The more I work within the system the more it doesn't make since. It's stupid economically and morally.

220 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:48:32pm

re: #196 Lidane

Tell you what -- you live on $8 right now. Today. Then tell me it's a living wage. Tell me that you could reasonably get by with an apartment, a car, and having to pay for food, clothing, and basic medical care with that income.

Fuck you. You have no idea what the hell you're even talking about.

Let's see---me and spouse, both earning $8/hour, 40 hour workweek. 50 weeks a year. That's 4000 hours, make it $32000 yearly family income.

So I'll budget $500 for optical, $1000 dental, $6000 other medical insurance [bare bones policy]. Maybe another $2000 for copays etc. Now we go to food. $5000 for the year. Basic stuff, chicken, rice, potatoes, cabbage, no soda etc. and no convenience food.

Rent? $9000. That's getting us a duplex, two bedrooms, about 1000 square feet. If things were tight I could get that number down.

I've got $8000 left. We'll have one car and I'll bicycle to work. Owning a car costs about 50 cents a mile so say 5000 miles a year that's 2500 for the car. Make it 3000. I've still got 5000. Clothing, utilities, etc. come out of that.

EITC covers our social security tax, and there's no federal income tax liability.

It wasn't even much of a challenge to work out how that would go.

221 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:50:19pm

re: #205 lostlakehiker

T
People, of course, die even if they're rich. I'm not trying to say that the poor are immortal, or even that they get the best health care. For that matter, the rich don't always get the best health care. But the care is good enough that the lifespan gap between middle class, and those who steer clear of paths that will both impoverish them and trash their health, but who are poor anyhow, is maybe two or three years. If that.

I love that bit. It's like, "Well, if we exclude factors that we know go hand in hand in poverty, maybe we can make these numbers seem better. 'cuz it's all their fault if they smoke, if they have unhealthy diets."

222 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:50:29pm

re: #220 lostlakehiker

Let's see---me and spouse, both earning $8/hour, 40 hour workweek. 50 weeks a year. That's 4000 hours, make it $32000 yearly family income.

So I'll budget $500 for optical, $1000 dental, $6000 other medical insurance [bare bones policy]. Maybe another $2000 for copays etc. Now we go to food. $5000 for the year. Basic stuff, chicken, rice, potatoes, cabbage, no soda etc. and no convenience food.

Rent? $9000. That's getting us a duplex, two bedrooms, about 1000 square feet. If things were tight I could get that number down.

I've got $8000 left. We'll have one car and I'll bicycle to work. Owning a car costs about 50 cents a mile so say 5000 miles a year that's 2500 for the car. Make it 3000. I've still got 5000. Clothing, utilities, etc. come out of that.

EITC covers our social security tax, and there's no federal income tax liability.

It wasn't even much of a challenge to work out how that would go.

Uh. A 1000 square foot duplex for 9000 a year? That works out to $750 a month. Where are you in West Virginia?

223 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:51:15pm

re: #217 Alouette

"Low cost regions" have lower cost of living, but corresponding lower salaries (if you are lucky enough to have a job)

I am making 67% of what I was making 10 years ago, but guess what! I am happy to even have a job!

Once it gets down to minimum wage, though, there's significant difference, particularly between urban and rural environments. Working minimum wage in, say, rural Eastern Washington isn't nearly as bad as working minimum wage living in Bellevue or Seattle. Or, worse, Los Angeles or New York.

I am happy you have a job!

224 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:51:38pm

re: #220 lostlakehiker

Rent? $9000. That's getting us a duplex, two bedrooms, about 1000 square feet. If things were tight I could get that number down.

I

Um, no.

225 Sheila Broflovski  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:51:46pm

I am getting a bunch of weird spam. It's from recruiters! They probably got my email from various job sites I signed up for. Even though I already have a job, I look at all these openings, mostly for medium-term contract projects (6 months-1 year), involve relocating, but the pay is spectacular!

I once left a permanent job for higher-paying contract assignments, but contracts end quickly and you have to scramble for another one. It's too unstable. I have learned to be happy with that I have. Still, it is tempting.

226 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:52:39pm

re: #214 Spocomptonite

I'm going to assume that, if you ever were poor, it was in a comfortable, inexpensive region.
But wouldn't you know it? minimum wage in the country is a lot different than minimum wage in the city. It doesn't even have to be minimum wage. Have you ever heard of the problems facing school teachers in rich districts like, say, Aspen, or Mercer Island? They are salaried and still have to either live in a garage that costs them half their wages in rent or live 2 or more hours away that costs them major time and money.

So, in summary, I challenge you to work part-time at a McDonalds near Pershing or Times Square and get back to me with your experiences. Let me know if it changes your mind at all.

I never said that this kind of money could get you a living of any sort in Aspen. Aspen is not a fair test case. Millionaires can't afford to live in Aspen. It takes another zero or two.

NYC is a less extreme example of the same situation. What I'm saying is that there are large areas of the country where that wage does see a couple through.

227 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:54:28pm

re: #226 lostlakehiker

I never said that this kind of money could get you a living of any sort in Aspen. Aspen is not a fair test case. Millionaires can't afford to live in Aspen. It takes another zero or two.

NYC is a less extreme example of the same situation. What I'm saying is that there are large areas of the country where that wage does see a couple through.

Uh. That's the thing right there. Aspen businesses do hire people for minimum wage. Where do you suppose those people have to live? I mean besides 20 to a house.

228 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:55:44pm

re: #219 moderatelyradicalliberal

Yes, I agree with you.

229 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:55:47pm

re: #227 Gus 802

Welcome to Southern California's economy as well.
The worker bees live in one place, and commute to where the jobs are.

230 BishopX  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:56:05pm

re: #205 lostlakehiker

That's part of the context. It's a given, in this society, that when you work and it still doesn't come to all that much, then society chips in. This is good. It encourages everyone to try their best, and when that best affords only a meager living, the rest of us kick in some.

People, of course, die even if they're rich. I'm not trying to say that the poor are immortal, or even that they get the best health care. For that matter, the rich don't always get the best health care. But the care is good enough that the lifespan gap between middle class, and those who steer clear of paths that will both impoverish them and trash their health, but who are poor anyhow, is maybe two or three years. If that.

Two things. One, we're talking about being able to live off of what you earn (living wage), you are saying that it's fine if you can't live of of what you earn because we'll help you if you try. This is the bullshit. When all that is preventing the working poor from being unable to feed their children is public assistance something is wrong with how our society is ordered, and we have a moral responsibility to fix it, just just attenuate it.

Second, it's considerably more than a few years difference in life expectancy. There is a six year gap in life expectancy between American Indians and the American public as a whole. There is a 30 year gap between American Indian men living on Pine ridge reservation and the country as a whole (yes this a very specific and generally non-representative case, but I think it illustrates the range in life expectancy disparities effectively).

231 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:56:28pm

re: #221 Obdicut

I love that bit. It's like, "Well, if we exclude factors that we know go hand in hand in poverty, maybe we can make these numbers seem better. 'cuz it's all their fault if they smoke, if they have unhealthy diets."

If somebody is poor because he's a meth addict, then it's not the lack of money that's shortening his life so much as the habit itself.

Malnutrition can go hand in hand with poverty, but I didn't go to exclude that, now did I.

The issue is whether poverty as such, not poverty as a side effect of life destroying bad habits, cuts into lifespan all that much.

Hispanics in the U.S. have less money than whites, but their infant mortality rate is lower. Just a little fact that's nicely consistent with the claim that living on about half the median household income will not, of itself, much shorten your life.

232 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:56:55pm

re: #220 lostlakehiker

Let's see---me and spouse, both earning $8/hour, 40 hour workweek. 50 weeks a year. That's 4000 hours, make it $32000 yearly family income.

So I'll budget $500 for optical, $1000 dental, $6000 other medical insurance [bare bones policy]. Maybe another $2000 for copays etc. Now we go to food. $5000 for the year. Basic stuff, chicken, rice, potatoes, cabbage, no soda etc. and no convenience food.

Rent? $9000. That's getting us a duplex, two bedrooms, about 1000 square feet. If things were tight I could get that number down.

I've got $8000 left. We'll have one car and I'll bicycle to work. Owning a car costs about 50 cents a mile so say 5000 miles a year that's 2500 for the car. Make it 3000. I've still got 5000. Clothing, utilities, etc. come out of that.

EITC covers our social security tax, and there's no federal income tax liability.

It wasn't even much of a challenge to work out how that would go.

$9000 a year? LOL. Oh, god. In places like Puget Sound (where there are, in fact, minimum wage jobs), you can hardly find tiny studio apartments for that much. And some really crazy people take on the added expense of kids, too, even while they are poor.

233 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:57:35pm

I don't want Goodhair to be the nominee for all kinds of reasons, but mostly, I don't think I could stomach the Civil War 2.0. It really would be a war between two Americas, perhaps the most tribal election we have seen in quite some time. This country has had enough trauma, but it may be unavoidable.

[Link: www.thedailybeast.com...]

234 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:57:57pm

re: #220 lostlakehiker

Can you explain how you derived the vehicle cost, please? Was it your ass?

I love how you magically live close enough to both your and your spouses job at $750 a month. Somehow, you're close enough to bike to your work, and only 20 miles from hers. Fucking amazing how that works out.

235 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:59:16pm

re: #234 Obdicut

Can you explain how you derived the vehicle cost, please? Was it your ass?

I love how you magically live close enough to both your and your spouses job at $750 a month. Somehow, you're close enough to bike to your work, and only 20 miles from hers. Fucking amazing how that works out.

I'm using that in calculus class for when I don't know an answer.

236 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 8:59:40pm

Good luck that holds on long enough is transmuted into virtue.

237 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:00:02pm

re: #227 Gus 802

Uh. That's the thing right there. Aspen businesses do hire people for minimum wage. Where do you suppose those people have to live? I mean besides 20 to a house.

You're really reaching. How many people live in Aspen? How many people live in the other fifty thousand small towns where costs are very different? Get this: yeah, the minimum wage is not remotely sufficient to buy a lifestyle IN ASPEN, or Manhattan, or name your high-cost region, that will keep a worker safely fed and housed. The conditions would be, at a minimum, too crowded. Infectious disease would be a real risk.

But what about, oh, say, Fredonia, Kansas? Or Navasota, Texas?

238 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:00:40pm

re: #231 lostlakehiker

I missed where Meth addiction related to a salary...

239 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:00:51pm

re: #226 lostlakehiker

re: #231 lostlakehiker

If somebody is poor because he's a meth addict, then it's not the lack of money that's shortening his life so much as the habit itself.

But being in poverty increases the chance of becoming a meth addict. You prefer to ignore this, because you're an ideologue. It also decreases your chances of being able to mitigate the ill health effects. Rich alcoholics can get top-notch care. Poor alcoholics can't. It has much more of an effect on their health. But you want to ignore that. You're very transparent.

The issue is whether poverty as such, not poverty as a side effect of life destroying bad habits, cuts into lifespan all that much.

I love how you're trying to claim the poverty is their fault, too. You're a class act.

240 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:01:07pm

re: #220 lostlakehiker

You really have never lived that way. Your numbers game is just a bunch of talking points.

750 a month for 1000 sqft of housing? Fat chance. Then electric, garbage, water, and heat bills on top of it. Unless you live in the deep south, those will eat your ass alive.

How about the first time your car dies as your leaving for work and you're fired for it as just one example. Then while your repairing that sucker, because mass transit in America isn't even good enough to call shitty, try to find another minimum wage job.

Feh.

241 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:01:19pm

Captain Morgan, The Rum Pirate, Lends A Knee To Hip Dislocation

Although Hendey admits the study doesn't prove whether the Captain Morgan technique is better than other techniques, he does believe it's safer and easier for doctors to perform. "Once they start using the Captain, they never go back," he says.

What I wanna know is what doctor does this. I've always had to wait for a Physical Therapist to do any joint manipulation.

242 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:01:32pm

re: #234 Obdicut

LOL!
Go Obdi, Go!

243 Daniel Ballard  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:01:38pm

Music Break Anyone?
Jeff Beck
(insane) Scatterbrain

Youtube Video
244 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:01:59pm

re: #234 Obdicut

Can you explain how you derived the vehicle cost, please? Was it your ass?

I love how you magically live close enough to both your and your spouses job at $750 a month. Somehow, you're close enough to bike to your work, and only 20 miles from hers. Fucking amazing how that works out.

They both still live in a college town.

245 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:02:45pm

re: #237 lostlakehiker

How about Madison, WI? Your numbers won't work here.

246 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:02:57pm

re: #237 lostlakehiker

YGet this: yeah, the minimum wage is not remotely sufficient to buy a lifestyle IN ASPEN, or Manhattan, or name your high-cost region, that will keep a worker safely fed and housed.

Holy shit, it's almost like it wouldn't be a living wage there!

You seriously think you're mkaing some grand point by pointing out the cost of living is very low in some places?

All you've done is shown how fucking hard it would be to get by on that. Somehow you need to find a $750 a month two-bedroom that's 20 miles from one job and within biking distance from another. You need to have no unemployment-- which is much more frequent in those jobs. You need to have no unforeseen expenses. You need to work 50 weeks a year.

You kind of punked yourself.

247 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:03:14pm

I'm back, at least for a time. I shook the tiredness off. But I really did a good bit of helping people in wheelchairs (one of whom is my mother) and it was tiring. Especially outside in high humidity. But others do far more in worse conditions, so what I did was no great shakes.

248 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:03:32pm

re: #237 lostlakehiker

You're really reaching. How many people live in Aspen? How many people live in the other fifty thousand small towns where costs are very different? Get this: yeah, the minimum wage is not remotely sufficient to buy a lifestyle IN ASPEN, or Manhattan, or name your high-cost region, that will keep a worker safely fed and housed. The conditions would be, at a minimum, too crowded. Infectious disease would be a real risk.

But what about, oh, say, Fredonia, Kansas? Or Navasota, Texas?

Exactly half of all cities in the U.S. are more expensive than average.
So, what do all the low-income earners do in the expensive areas? Mass migrate to Kansas like a reverse Dustbowl?

249 BishopX  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:03:40pm

re: #231 lostlakehiker

Or people become meth addicts because meth allows then to stay up for 36 hours straight in order to work the swing shift for their two jobs which they need in order to pay for their gas and cars payments because they're too damn poor to leave near somewhere they can work.

Some people (not all, but some) use hard drugs for seeming logical reasons. Smoking meth once or twice a month can be a rational decision if you think you can avoid getting hooked.

250 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:03:47pm

re: #232 Spocomptonite

$9000 a year? LOL. Oh, god. In places like Puget Sound (where there are, in fact, minimum wage jobs), you can hardly find tiny studio apartments for that much. And some really crazy people take on the added expense of kids, too, even while they are poor.

Yeah, tell me I'm lying about the rent. This isn't a made up number. It's right there in the classifieds of our local paper. Well, not exactly. I upped the number because I don't like to cut things too fine when making my case. If you want a more exact number, try $8100.

There are places where costs are high. Aspen, NYC, and Puget Sound. None of that invalidates my point. I'm NOT SAYING the minimum wage will cover any sort of reasonable living across the board. I'm saying that in large swaths of the country, it will.

251 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:04:17pm

re: #237 lostlakehiker

Wait-- that'd be 20 miles if it were one way. You manage to live within 10 miles of your wife's work while biking to yours-- and you never use the car for any other purpose.

252 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:04:57pm

re: #250 lostlakehiker

Yeah, tell me I'm lying about the rent. This isn't a made up number. It's right there in the classifieds of our local paper. Well, not exactly. I upped the number because I don't like to cut things too fine when making my case. If you want a more exact number, try $8100.

There are places where costs are high. Aspen, NYC, and Puget Sound. None of that invalidates my point. I'm NOT SAYING the minimum wage will cover any sort of reasonable living across the board. I'm saying that in large swaths of the country, it will.

And is this a neighborhood would would feel safe leaving your wife alone in while you are out? Can you even get renters insurance in that neighborhood?

253 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:05:58pm

re: #251 Obdicut

and you never use the car for any other purpose.

That reminds me of a New Yorker cartoon
[Link: www.newyorkerstore.com...]

254 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:06:14pm

re: #250 lostlakehiker

In those large swathes of the country where its' that cheap, what's the unemployment rate? What's the chance you and your wife will be unemployed for a portion of the year? What's the chance of you finding jobs that close to your house?

Why can't you see how badly you need to tip the scales?

255 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:07:05pm

re: #252 ggt

I'd guess no, to all of the above.
Still, people manage to live in bad neighborhoods.
You just have to pay attention.
Been there, done that, got the tee shirt!

256 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:07:29pm

re: #254 Obdicut

In those large swathes of the country where its' that cheap, what's the unemployment rate? What's the chance you and your wife will be unemployed for a portion of the year? What's the chance of you finding jobs that close to your house?

Why can't you see how badly you need to tip the scales?

It's really cheap in Detroit! Let's go live there and be unemployed until we get work visas for Canada!

///

257 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:07:49pm

re: #231 lostlakehiker

If somebody is poor because he's a meth addict, then it's not the lack of money that's shortening his life so much as the habit itself.

Malnutrition can go hand in hand with poverty, but I didn't go to exclude that, now did I.

The issue is whether poverty as such, not poverty as a side effect of life destroying bad habits, cuts into lifespan all that much.

Hispanics in the U.S. have less money than whites, but their infant mortality rate is lower. Just a little fact that's nicely consistent with the claim that living on about half the median household income will not, of itself, much shorten your life.

What is the overall infant mortality rate among those below the poverty line in this country? Or doesn't that fit your narrative?

258 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:07:53pm

re: #250 lostlakehiker

If you're living in that cheap a neighborhood, I'd advise either a good .38 +P revolver or a pump shotgun with 00 buck loaded in it next to your bed.

259 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:08:30pm

re: #258 wlewisiii

If you're living in that cheap a neighborhood, I'd advise either a good .38 +P revolver or a pump shotgun with 00 buck loaded in it next to your bed.

Or a really good dog --if you can afford one.

260 Lidane  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:08:38pm

re:

261 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:08:49pm

re: #239 Obdicut

But being in poverty increases the chance of becoming a meth addict. You prefer to ignore this, because you're an ideologue. It also decreases your chances of being able to mitigate the ill health effects. Rich alcoholics can get top-notch care. Poor alcoholics can't. It has much more of an effect on their health. But you want to ignore that. You're very transparent.

I love how you're trying to claim the poverty is their fault, too. You're a class act.

Your debating tactics are, as usual, not straight. You twist everything that is said.

Can you imagine that someone might be poor BECAUSE of such habits? That they made a good living before they got into all that?

The question at issue is whether lack of money, to the degree under discussion, as such, for a person who in other respects is just like the middle class, who isn't poor as a side effect of self destructive habits, will cut short their life, beyond a few years perhaps.

262 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:09:14pm

re: #252 ggt

And is this a neighborhood would would feel safe leaving your wife alone in while you are out? Can you even get renters insurance in that neighborhood?

Yes, and yes.

263 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:09:25pm

re: #258 wlewisiii

If you're living in that cheap a neighborhood, I'd advise either a good .38 +P revolver or a pump shotgun with 00 buck loaded in it next to your bed.

I take a more pacifist approach to that threat. I simply stay broke enough to not have anything worth taking.

264 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:09:57pm

Let's see. Welcome to San Francisco/Bay Area.

Salary: $9.92 (San Francisco Minimum Wage)
Total yearly income: $20,653
After taxes: $17,538.56

Rent: East Oakland (high crime location) -$9,000 1BR
Food: -$3,120
Muni Fast Pass: -$864
Health Insurance: -$4,800
Clothing: -$1,200
Household Items: -$1,200
Laundry: -$520

Oops. Too late. I'm already in the red at -$3,165.44.

And I didn't include phone, electricity, gas, garbage (yes they charge for that sometimes around here), water, internet, etc.

265 Lidane  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:10:09pm

re: #240 wlewisiii

You really have never lived that way. Your numbers game is just a bunch of talking points.

750 a month for 1000 sqft of housing? Fat chance. Then electric, garbage, water, and heat bills on top of it. Unless you live in the deep south, those will eat your ass alive.

These days, living in the South isn't helping me with electric/garbage/etc. On average, the City of Austin cheerfully sends me bills for $250 a month. That's $3k a year.

266 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:10:39pm

re: #254 Obdicut

In those large swathes of the country where its' that cheap, what's the unemployment rate? What's the chance you and your wife will be unemployed for a portion of the year? What's the chance of you finding jobs that close to your house?

Why can't you see how badly you need to tip the scales?

The unemployment rate is below the national average. And mind you, we are NOT TALKING about what it's like to be unemployed. That's another topic for another day. We're talking about what it's like ASSUMING you've got a job.

267 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:10:41pm

re: #259 ggt

Or a really good dog --if you can afford one.

Guns are cheaper to feed.

(no snark, a dog worthwhile for defense eats a hell of a lot of food)

268 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:10:41pm

re: #240 wlewisiii

You really have never lived that way. Your numbers game is just a bunch of talking points.

750 a month for 1000 sqft of housing? Fat chance. Then electric, garbage, water, and heat bills on top of it. Unless you live in the deep south, those will eat your ass alive.

How about the first time your car dies as your leaving for work and you're fired for it as just one example. Then while your repairing that sucker, because mass transit in America isn't even good enough to call shitty, try to find another minimum wage job.

Feh.

I don't know why all you people are arguing about this. All sides are right, in their specifics. Except that the specifics are not universal.

In the above example, the one who takes up the slack is the landlord who doesn't get paid. Call that society if you wish; although as a landlord, mostly a nice one, I have trouble affording to play the role of support of last resort and explain why to my family, or my mortgage holder.

269 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:11:18pm

re: #261 lostlakehiker

Can you imagine that someone might be poor BECAUSE of such habits? That they made a good living before they got into all that?

Yes. that happens all the time. It is not, however, as frequent.


The question at issue is whether lack of money, to the degree under discussion, as such, for a person who in other respects is just like the middle class, who isn't poor as a side effect of self destructive habits, will cut short their life, beyond a few years perhaps.

Yes, that's how closely you have to cut the question, how much you have to ignore. And yet you're still punking yourself.

Can you admit that you don't actually have any facts or figures to base this on, please? That you're just pulling it out of your ass?

270 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:11:21pm

re: #258 wlewisiii

If you're living in that cheap a neighborhood, I'd advise either a good .38 +P revolver or a pump shotgun with 00 buck loaded in it next to your bed.

A good 12-gauge is never a bad idea, where ever you live.

271 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:11:36pm

Unless you can get a minimum wage job with a large corporation with full benefits --good insurance, flexible-spending plan, disability, paid vacation, personal days, 401K, retirement etc and regular .10 cent an hours wage increases--you really cannot make it.

Even with THAT job, where I live (Chicagoland) people still qualify for public assistance.

Your best bet is to get that job and take advantage of education benefits either from the corporation or government and get trained to do something that is in demand.

272 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:11:51pm

re: #250 lostlakehiker

Yeah, tell me I'm lying about the rent. This isn't a made up number. It's right there in the classifieds of our local paper. Well, not exactly. I upped the number because I don't like to cut things too fine when making my case. If you want a more exact number, try $8100.

There are places where costs are high. Aspen, NYC, and Puget Sound. None of that invalidates my point. I'm NOT SAYING the minimum wage will cover any sort of reasonable living across the board. I'm saying that in large swaths of the country, it will.

And in those very large swaths of the country where you think it will you're not going to find any job. The jobs are in high rent locations.

273 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:12:32pm

bbiab

274 BishopX  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:12:45pm

Since we're all talking about living in poverty and all the expenses it incurs. I think now is a good time to post Spent. It's a flash game based around the economic decisions you need to make over the course of a month living on the bottom rung of the ladder. It's absolutely possible to make it through one game. The challenge is to make it through 3 months in a row.

275 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:12:46pm

re: #265 Lidane

These days, living in the South isn't helping me with electric/garbage/etc. On average, the City of Austin cheerfully sends me bills for $250 a month. That's $3k a year.

Austin isn't really the South, though. If Texas seceded, they'd try to leave it behind for New Mexico or something. ///

276 Lidane  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:12:52pm

re: #232 Spocomptonite

$9000 a year? LOL. Oh, god. In places like Puget Sound (where there are, in fact, minimum wage jobs), you can hardly find tiny studio apartments for that much. And some really crazy people take on the added expense of kids, too, even while they are poor.

I wish I only paid $9,000 a month in rent.

Right now, my shitty, aging just-over-1000 sq. ft. duplex runs me $1,125 a month. That's $13,500 a year down the drain before I even get to food, bills, car insurance, gas, clothing, my cell phone, etc.

Those numbers were total bullshit.

277 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:12:58pm

re: #264 Gus 802

Let's see. Welcome to San Francisco/Bay Area.

Salary: $9.92 (San Francisco Minimum Wage)
Total yearly income: $20,653
After taxes: $17,538.56

Rent: East Oakland (high crime location) -$9,000 1BR
Food: -$3,120
Muni Fast Pass: -$864
Health Insurance: -$4,800
Clothing: -$1,200
Household Items: -$1,200
Laundry: -$520

Oops. Too late. I'm already in the red at -$3,165.44.

And I didn't include phone, electricity, gas, garbage (yes they charge for that sometimes around here), water, internet, etc.

Another high cost area. I exclude all of California, just to make you happy. And Detroit. And Manhattan, and so on. High cost areas are an entirely different story, as are regions that are cheap because life is cheap there.

Much of the country, actually, most of it, is neither a crime hellhole nor a high price zone.

278 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:13:11pm

re: #271 ggt

Unless you can get a minimum wage job with a large corporation with full benefits --good insurance, flexible-spending plan, disability, paid vacation, personal days, 401K, retirement etc and regular .10 cent an hours wage increases--you really cannot make it.

Even with THAT job, where I live (Chicagoland) people still qualify for public assistance.

Your best bet is to get that job and take advantage of education benefits either from the corporation or government and get trained to do something that is in demand.

Quite Concur.

279 Interesting Times  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:13:13pm

re: #236 jaunte

Good luck that holds on long enough is transmuted into virtue.

YES. Thank you, I was wanting to express the same thought but couldn't find the right words. Case in point?

I saw that game. It's rigged. If I make the prudent choice, it breaks my car for me and makes my dog get sick and if that doesn't suffice it just breaks my leg or something.

The "game" being this one, that simulates "living wage" poverty.

And that's the whole point of the so-called "rigging" - to prove that, even if you do all the right bootstrappy things, bad luck can still come along and kick you in the ass. Therefore, "transmuting" your good luck into self-congratulatory virtue isn't such an accurate thing to do.

280 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:13:38pm

re: #277 lostlakehiker

Another high cost area. I exclude all of California, just to make you happy. And Detroit. And Manhattan, and so on. High cost areas are an entirely different story, as are regions that are cheap because life is cheap there.

Much of the country, actually, most of it, is neither a crime hellhole nor a high price zone.

Sorry but that made me laugh.

281 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:13:46pm

re: #270 Dark_Falcon

A good 12-gauge is never a bad idea, where ever you live.

Though, honestly, I prefer my SxS to a pump gun :D Much more fun chasing pheasant, mallard, squirrel & rabbit with that.

I have my Colt 357 for defense.

282 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:13:53pm

re: #269 Obdicut

Yes. that happens all the time. It is not, however, as frequent.

Yes, that's how closely you have to cut the question, how much you have to ignore. And yet you're still punking yourself.

Can you admit that you don't actually have any facts or figures to base this on, please? That you're just pulling it out of your ass?

Argue nice, please. Ass hat crap gets boring.

283 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:14:10pm

Now we're excluding all of California. Right. Before it was just Aspen. Now it's a whole state.

284 bratwurst  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:14:23pm

re: #264 Gus 802

Let's see. Welcome to San Francisco/Bay Area.

Just move to Fredonia, Kansas and you will be on easy street!

285 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:14:50pm

re: #266 lostlakehiker

The unemployment rate is below the national average. And mind you, we are NOT TALKING about what it's like to be unemployed. That's another topic for another day. We're talking about what it's like ASSUMING you've got a job.

My god, how much do you have to stack the deck in your favor? You don't think that taking into account how frequent unemployment in a job is should be a factor in this equation? Jesus, how weak can an argument get?

What if you can't work 50 weeks a year, because you get sick? Oh, sorry, we're probably not allowed to consider that, because in your perfect world that wouldn't happen and you don't want to consider it. Or consider parking tickets, or driving your car more than 10 miles a day, or, hell, even what that bike costs per year, or any of the other expenses you conveniently left out.

286 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:14:52pm

re: #277 lostlakehiker

Another high cost area. I exclude all of California, just to make you happy. And Detroit. And Manhattan, and so on over half the population of the United States to support my conclusion about the entire United States population. High cost areas are an entirely different story, as are regions that are cheap because life is cheap there.

Much of the country, actually, most of it, is neither a crime hellhole nor a high price zone.

287 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:16:08pm

re: #282 Naso Tang

Argue nice, please. Ass hat crap gets boring.

Hypocrisy, table of one?

288 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:16:28pm

re: #224 bratwurst

Um, no.


Places as described are almost always available in the classifieds of my town, and for $700 or less.

And the town isn't a dump. You simply don't know what rents are outside your own locale.

289 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:16:58pm

re: #284 bratwurst

Just move to Fredonia, Kansas and you will be on easy street!

Everyone will do it, and it'll be fine! There will be jobs for all of them, housing for all, and it'll be great. I don't know why anyone has a problem with poverty, after I just proved it's not really that big a deal! Must be their own fault, the self-destructive scum.
/

290 Lidane  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:17:43pm

re: #277 lostlakehiker

Another high cost area. I exclude all of California, just to make you happy. And Detroit. And Manhattan, and so on. High cost areas are an entirely different story, as are regions that are cheap because life is cheap there.

You know what you're conveniently ignoring in your idiotic quest to prove that people can get by on $8/hr? POPULATION DENSITY. The high cost areas you keep pointing to are urban areas where shitloads of people live.

Here's an illustrated map for you:

[Link: visualizingeconomics.com...]

Imagine that. Most people tend to live in the high cost areas you want to ignore.

291 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:18:53pm

re: #288 lostlakehiker

Places as described are almost always available in the classifieds of my town, and for $700 or less.

And the town isn't a dump. You simply don't know what rents are outside your own locale.

I posit it is you who doesn't know what you accuse others of not knowing.

292 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:18:55pm

re: #288 lostlakehiker

Why are you pretending that people are making the argument that there's nowhere in the country you could get by on that?

Why aren't you paying any attention to the actual arguments against what you're saying, such as:

There's fewer jobs in those low-rent areas.
You're assuming 10 miles a day of driving.
You're assuming a couple healthy enough to work 50 weeks a year.
You're leaving out all tax.
You're leaving out cell phone coverage.

293 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:19:24pm

re: #279 publicityStunted

YES. Thank you, I was wanting to express the same thought but couldn't find the right words. Case in point?

The "game" being this one, that simulates "living wage" poverty.

And that's the whole point of the so-called "rigging" - to prove that, even if you do all the right bootstrappy things, bad luck can still come along and kick you in the ass. Therefore, "transmuting" your good luck into self-congratulatory virtue isn't such an accurate thing to do.

The point of the rigging is to rig it. Having low income means that IF a shit storm of bad luck befalls you, you have no cushion. You can't ride it out if you have no savings.

But that game purports to show how things WILL go, how they typically DO go, for the guy playing. It's a rigged game. In the real world, millions of Americans are playing its real world counterpart and getting decent luck and pulling through.

294 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:19:49pm

re: #291 Spocomptonite

I posit it is you who doesn't know what you accuse others of not knowing.

Heh. In a way, he's right. There are huge swathes of the country where his economics work. That's mainly because no one lives there.

295 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:19:52pm

re: #254 Obdicut

In those large swathes of the country where its' that cheap, what's the unemployment rate? What's the chance you and your wife will be unemployed for a portion of the year? What's the chance of you finding jobs that close to your house?

Why can't you see how badly you need to tip the scales?

Don't forget about all of the the things that a double wage family at $8 per hour will have to forgo:

- anything other than a bottom of the barrel computer and cell phone.
- air travel of any kind, except for family emergencies
- retirement savings
- college fund
- owning a home
- dining out that costs more than $10
- basically anything that can't be brought at target or walmart

Just because a family is able to live making 32K (minus taxes) per year, doesn't mean that it's desirable at all.

296 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:20:40pm

re: #277 lostlakehiker

You're excluding too much, LLH. Too many people live in those places to properly exclude them to make a point. You end up cherry-picking.

297 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:20:50pm

re: #289 Obdicut

Everyone will do it, and it'll be fine! There will be jobs for all of them, housing for all, and it'll be great. I don't know why anyone has a problem with poverty, after I just proved it's not really that big a deal! Must be their own fault, the self-destructive scum.
/

Why don't poor people with no money just rent a Uhaul and make the 1000-mile drive in a 10 mpg truck to a new place without any job prospects? God, don't they think? ///

298 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:21:25pm

To think I charge close to $45/hour and that's low in my field. At least compared to what engineering or architectural firms charge which is upwards of $75/hour. My brother is non-union but pull in union wage per contract and making close to 100K per year working in NYC. Of course, he usually has some excuse for not helping me out during this rough patch I'm going through. In any event. Minimum wage might be fine for some folks but it's not for me. Screw that. I was making 10 bucks an hour in 1985.

299 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:21:28pm

re: #290 Lidane

You know what you're conveniently ignoring in your idiotic quest to prove that people can get by on $8/hr? POPULATION DENSITY. The high cost areas you keep pointing to are urban areas where shitloads of people live.

Here's an illustrated map for you:

[Link: visualizingeconomics.com...]

Imagine that. Most people tend to live in the high cost areas you want to ignore.

Most people do NOT live in Aspen or Manhattan. There are all sorts of cities out there where costs are much more modest.

Puget Sound? Aspen? Manhattan? SF Bay? The average income there is far higher than for the nation as a whole. Surely it is not possible that most people live in areas where almost everybody makes a lot more than average.

300 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:22:02pm

re: #297 Spocomptonite

Add in plenty of birth control expenses, too, because otherwise they'll have a kid, and then their costs are going to shoot right up.

Or they can not have sex, I guess. That'd be economically more responsible. They should do that.

301 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:22:20pm

re: #295 Surabaya Stew

Don't forget about all of the the things that a double wage family at $8 per hour will have to forgo:

- anything other than a bottom of the barrel computer and cell phone.
- air travel of any kind, except for family emergencies
- retirement savings
- college fund
- owning a home
- dining out that costs more than $10
- basically anything that can't be brought at target or walmart

Just because a family is able to live making 32K (minus taxes) per year, doesn't mean that it's desirable at all.

On this I quite agree. I didn't say it was desirable. I said it was doable.

302 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:24:00pm

When I got out of college and got married making 3.35 cents an hour.. We found this flat in Napa that was totally awesome..It had a greenhouse and lots of empty space in this Victorian downtown...I remember rent was 135 bucks a month.. Those were the days in Napa Valley when a normal family could live and work...And look out the kitchen window to the most beautiful Valley in the world...God.. Napa is so beautiful..Someday I'll be back home

303 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:24:11pm

re: #298 Gus 802

To think I charge close to $45/hour and that's low in my field. At least compared to what engineering or architectural firms charge which is upwards of $75/hour. My brother is non-union but pull in union wage per contract and making close to 100K per year working in NYC. Of course, he usually has some excuse for not helping me out during this rough patch I'm going through. In any event. Minimum wage might be fine for some folks but it's not for me. Screw that. I was making 10 bucks an hour in 1985.

You're an architect? :-)

304 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:25:02pm

re: #303 Surabaya Stew

You're an architect? :-)

Sort of. I have tons of experience. No license. No degree.

305 darthstar  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:26:36pm

re: #304 Gus 802

Sort of. I have tons of experience. No license. No degree.

Ahh...an architect of love...

306 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:26:38pm

re: #294 Obdicut

Heh. In a way, he's right. There are huge swathes of the country where his economics work. That's mainly because no one lives there.

Oh, yeah, I know. In my own experience living pretty much everywhere in my state, Eastern Washington is cheapo supremo. But the entire region has about as many people as Seattle proper does and most of the jobs are minimum or sub-minimum wage agriculture jobs. And when I tried moving to Seattle, even with my exceptional mathematics abilities I couldn't calculate a way to afford living within 30 miles that didn't require me to have a job that made at least $20/hour. Or required subletting from someone needing a roommate in the 1-car garage they rented from someone else.

307 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:27:05pm

re: #296 Dark_Falcon

You're excluding too much, LLH. Too many people live in those places to properly exclude them to make a point. You end up cherry-picking.

Really? The places specifically mentioned are all instances of places where the local average is high. For Aspen, it's got to be stratospheric. For Manhattan, that's common knowledge.

These sorts of concentrations of wealth cannot possibly contain the majority of the nation.

Take the bottom half of cost-of-living. That's as large a swath as the top half. It's a large swath.

This forum is full of people who read and write at college+ level. Naturally enough, in their circles, they don't see much of this other half.

308 BishopX  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:29:36pm

re: #301 lostlakehiker

So far we've established that it's doable assuming:

-You live so
-you remain employed
-Your spouse remains employed
-you can maintain a stable relationship while under tremendous load of stress
-you are a paragon of virtue who avoids all unhealthy behaviors
in the worst of times
-You have mentat like mathematical abilities and can balance your monthly budget to a T
-You read an understand all contracts you sign
-You stay lucky
-There is public assistance for when something goes wrong


Those last two are the real kicker.

309 BishopX  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:30:29pm

re: #308 BishopX

So far we've established that it's doable assuming:

-You live somewhere cheap
-you remain employed
-Your spouse remains employed
-you can maintain a stable relationship while under tremendous load of stress
-you are a paragon of virtue who avoids all unhealthy behaviors
in the worst of times
-You have mentat like mathematical abilities and can balance your monthly budget to a T
-You read an understand all contracts you sign
-You stay lucky
-There is public assistance for when something goes wrong

Those last two are the real kicker.

PIMF

310 Interesting Times  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:30:51pm

re: #307 lostlakehiker

This forum is full of people who read and write at college+ level. Naturally enough, in their circles, they don't see much of this other half.

Oh really?

311 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:32:01pm

re: #307 lostlakehiker

Really? The places specifically mentioned are all instances of places where the local average is high. For Aspen, it's got to be stratospheric. For Manhattan, that's common knowledge.

These sorts of concentrations of wealth cannot possibly contain the majority of the nation.

Take the bottom half of cost-of-living. That's as large a swath as the top half. It's a large swath.

This forum is full of people who read and write at college+ level. Naturally enough, in their circles, they don't see much of this other half.

We do see that half. But what we are saying is that so much of the population lives in places like California that to exclude both it and New york City is to make your population unrepresentative. I'm questioning your methodology, not your values.

312 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:32:27pm

re: #307 lostlakehiker

Sorry to prove you wrong with my fucking existence but, hey, there you go.

Reality bites, doesn't it?

313 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:32:49pm

re: #301 lostlakehiker

On this I quite agree. I didn't say it was desirable. I said it was doable.

Thanks for acknowledging this. This is the main reason why Americans don't usually move to where the low-wage jobs/low-cost living areas are. With such limited opportunity to make more than a tolerable wage, why would any of us bother to move from NYC to Alabama?

On the other hand, to somebody from Mexico or Vietnam, that 32K per year might sound like a real life-changer. Guess we shouldnt be supprised to see increased immigration to these low-wage jobs/low-cost living areas.

314 Spocomptonite  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:32:50pm

re: #307 lostlakehiker

Really? The places specifically mentioned are all instances of places where the local average is high. For Aspen, it's got to be stratospheric. For Manhattan, that's common knowledge.

These sorts of concentrations of wealth cannot possibly contain the majority of the nation.

Take the bottom half of cost-of-living. That's as large a swath as the top half. It's a large swath.

This forum is full of people who read and write at college+ level. Naturally enough, in their circles, they don't see much of this other half.

Why don't you just add the western (expensive) part of Oregon and Washington to your California exemption. That's only, like, 20% of all people in the U.S. Take off Manhattan and the other boroughs, it's at like 30%.
Y'know, it'd be really easy to make your point if you just exclude everyone in the US except yourself. Reducto ad I-win-um: Reducing the argument to only the things that make you right.

315 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:33:22pm

re: #147 lostlakehiker

There's a nobility about gamely soldiering on when your best efforts come to little. And the poor are not prey to some of the temptations that bedevil and ensnare the rich.

How, though, is it noble to be poor because a life of idleness suits you and the State has been kind enough to see to your material needs, IPhone included? And to riot if the prospect is dim for a priority upgrade to an IPhone5?

There's cause for legitimate complaint, on moral grounds, against that segment of the population. Their poverty is not entirely their own fault, because the State has made this ignoble way of life feasible and it's wrong to tempt people. But it's partly their own fault. Other people with no more talent or energy, living in that same society, find a way to fit in and contribute. They find a mate and stick with him or her, raise a couple of kids maybe, and teach them right from wrong. And they do it on really no more money, even though they're working and the other bloke isn't.

The first problem is it seems that any discussion of poor starts from a presupposition of laziness or slackerdom. As if poor are guilty until proven innocent. Then ladled on top of that is that some poor are that way because of the government that created their situation due to the sloppy socialist tendencies that foment and propagate poorness.

316 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:33:38pm

re: #307 lostlakehiker

Dude, I was absolutely dirt broke-ass poor for six goddamn years. You've got no fucking clue what you're talking about.

let's take Ogden, a town that made Forbes 100 cheapest.

If you look on Craigslist there, you'll find some of those $750 a month 2 bedrooms. In one of the cheapest places to live. Not an average place. One of the cheapest towns in America.

[Link: ogden.craigslist.org...]

You can find apartments that cheap in regular cities, too-- near airports, near power plants. Not as many as people looking, of course.

When you're poor, the rent is the main constraint. Finding a place that's also-- as your calculation forces it to be-- within 10 miles of work is a fantasy. When I lived in Chicago on minimum wage-- sharing a studio apartment in a bad part of town with another person-- our job was 16 miles away. That's the job that we found. We had no time to look for another job closer, because, duh, we were working all the time.

Strangely enough, we didn't make it. He got sick, missed some shifts, they didn't fire him but he didn't have the money for the rent, we got evicted, because we had no cushion. Yay.

Yeah, people can make it on that salary-- if you make a lot of assumptions in their favor, and nothing bad ever happens to them.

317 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:33:57pm

re: #314 Spocomptonite

Why don't you just add the western (expensive) part of Oregon and Washington to your California exemption. That's only, like, 20% of all people in the U.S. Take off Manhattan and the other boroughs, it's at like 30%.
Y'know, it'd be really easy to make your point if you just exclude everyone in the US except yourself. Reducto ad I-win-um: Reducing the argument to only the things that make you right.

Add Northern Virginia as well.

318 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:34:52pm

Interesting paper on the persistence of poverty at the link below...

Blaming the poor for their poverty remains a popular way of understanding poverty in part because this provides explanations which do not threaten those with privilege. Poverty in the midst of plenty is a deeply disturbing fact of contemporary American society, and people with stable jobs and good incomes feel a need to justify their advantages. The most painless way to do this is to believe, if only vaguely, that the poor are somehow unworthy.

While this is never fully convincing, especially because of the problem of children who cannot be seen as deserving to be poor, nevertheless it reduces the moral pressure on the middle class and the wealthy to take seriously the problem of changing institutions to eliminate poverty.
[Link: www.jrtayloriv.net...]

319 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:34:52pm

re: #299 lostlakehiker

Many places on this earth are expensive to live in.
Move on.
You can either afford it, or you can't.

320 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:35:35pm

re: #304 Gus 802

Sort of. I have tons of experience. No license. No degree.

Really? Awesum! (I thought Ojoe was the only other Lizard Architect!) Seriously, where are you located and what kinds of buildings do you work on? Myself, I'm a native New Yorker who work with restoring high-rise exteriors and roofs.

321 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:37:47pm

re: #302 HoosierHoops

When I got out of college and got married making 3.35 cents an hour.. We found this flat in Napa that was totally awesome..It had a greenhouse and lots of empty space in this Victorian downtown...I remember rent was 135 bucks a month.. Those were the days in Napa Valley when a normal family could live and work...And look out the kitchen window to the most beautiful Valley in the world...God.. Napa is so beautiful..Someday I'll be back home

OMG, I remember 3.35 an hour --I worked fast-food in High School.

322 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:38:39pm

Really, underneath all the seemingly pragmatic logic discussing the ability of many to get by with little, there's a tinge of 'suck it up bitches, get your bootstraps on' beneath it all. I'm all for pressing slackers and laggards to get up off their asses but instead we're discussing laggards and slackers as the primary element to people living in poverty.

Some people will try to exploit any system they are part of. That includes wealthy and poor.

323 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:39:43pm

What an utterly stupid way to spend a Saturday night - drinking whiskey and arguing with a troll.

kyrie eleison
christe eleison
kyrie eleison.

324 Interesting Times  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:39:44pm

re: #317 Varek Raith

Add Northern Virginia as well.

Pffft. No Real Americans™ live there anyway.

325 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:39:59pm

re: #320 Surabaya Stew

Really? Awesum! (I thought Ojoe was the only other Lizard Architect!) Seriously, where are you located and what kinds of buildings do you work on? Myself, I'm a native New Yorker who work with restoring high-rise exteriors and roofs.

I was in Denver. Mostly single family residential. Also working with a developer building custom built homes. Apartments, commercial, zoning changes, mini-storage, etc. Stuff like that. Did a landmark home renovation set a couple of years ago. Most recently it's been on updating some apartments for Generation-Y renters. I'll do whatever the clients wants for the most part. The usual: site plan, floor plans, elevations, sections, renderings.

326 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:40:16pm

re: #322 BigPapa

I always find the 'bootstraps' thing funny, because I think a lot of people don't really realize it refers to something impossible. You can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

A lot of people miss that irony.

327 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:40:53pm

re: #322 BigPapa

Another bit from the paper linked above, talking about the 'character issue' as it relates to poverty:

Why do sophisticated wealthy people who can easily afford to pay their taxes and hire professional accountants and lawyers to make sure that they do not make “mistakes” still cheat on their tax payments? The answer is pretty simple: they do so because they think that they can get away with it. The resulting theft comes to orders of magnitude more than property theft by the poor: in 2002 the total economic loss from property theft (burglary, larceny-theft, and motor vehicle theft) was estimated to be somewhere around $16.6 billion (in 2002 dollars) while the total amount of cheating on taxes in 2001 was estimated to be over $300 billion.
328 laZardo  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:41:14pm

re: #324 publicityStunted

The Real Americans™ seceded long ago. q;

329 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:42:11pm

re: #328 laZardo

The Real Americans™ seceded long ago. q;

Amen, brother, amen.

330 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:42:37pm

re: #287 Obdicut

Hypocrisy, table of one?

Boring.

331 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:42:54pm

re: #319 Floral Giraffe

Many places on this earth are expensive to live in.
Move on.
You can either afford it, or you can't.

funny isn't it..The same flat we rented out of college in Napa for 135 bucks is probably being rented out today for 4000 a month to some damn wine snobs..I loved the greenhouse..It was like 500 sq.ft surrounded by glass..
I grew tomatoes..she grew flowers..Just like you...We were 22 yrs. old living in a bitchen house in Napa Valley..For 135/month...

332 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:42:55pm

re: #308 BishopX

I work with someone who has forgone knee surgery (even tho this person has good insurance and disability) because she can't afford it.

This person had a bout with cancer a couple of years ago and came to work after her chemo treatments because she had run out of disability and couldn't afford not to be paid.

I'd like to think I am that strong, but I don't think I could do it.

Luckily my work environment is a little more family oriented. Everyone tries to help when they know someone is in need. Those of us who can pitch in more (silently).

It's one thing to work 2 or 3 jobs when you are in your 20's and then still party all night. I know I did it. You think you can always get by.

Turn 40, and EVERYTHING changes.

333 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:44:10pm

re: #230 BishopX

Two things. One, we're talking about being able to live off of what you earn (living wage), you are saying that it's fine if you can't live of of what you earn because we'll help you if you try. This is the bullshit. When all that is preventing the working poor from being unable to feed their children is public assistance something is wrong with how our society is ordered, and we have a moral responsibility to fix it, just just attenuate it.

Second, it's considerably more than a few years difference in life expectancy. There is a six year gap in life expectancy between American Indians and the American public as a whole. There is a 30 year gap between American Indian men living on Pine ridge reservation and the country as a whole (yes this a very specific and generally non-representative case, but I think it illustrates the range in life expectancy disparities effectively).

We do NOT have a moral responsibility to equalize wages, as in outright, numerical equality. Maybe the EITC should be larger, but at some point, attenuation suffices. The overall equity of a distribution of income has to do with income after transfer payments. It is better to have wages themselves be real, money that's paid the worker because of his work. And then, if that work is of low value, sweeten the pot as we do with various transfers, so that when it's all taken into account, things work out.

It would be nice if we could boost more of the poor up into steady middle class employment. We do try, and many do succeed. But not all. Anything in that vein that's working, I'm all for it.

The lifespan of reservation Indians is a blot on the record of the department of the interior. They've been systematically cheated of their extraction industry royalties, which accounts for some of the poverty. There are indeed no jobs, or next to none, so they must manage on far less money than we've been talking. On top of that, there's alcohol. And health care is pretty much nonexistent.

Without getting into the reasons for the sky high alcoholism rates on reservations, I'll just observe that those rates are not replicated among the working poor, who have it much better, and who, I'm claiming, don't face those kinds of miserably shortened life spans.

Your six year gap for Indians corroborates my claim. If the gap is 6, for a population whose lot is far more dire than that of the employed working poor, the group we're talking about, then how big can it be for the working poor themselves? 3 years? 2 years? Somewhere in there seems about right.

334 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:44:46pm

re: #66 lostlakehiker

A job that pays poorly still pays more than no job. People are voting with their feet. Oh, and any job pays a living wage. You won't die of hunger because you cannot afford 2500 calories a day. You won't die of exposure because you can't afford any legal housing.

a dazzling vision of a bright future for America! Truly, it is morning in this great nation lol.

335 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:45:56pm

re: #328 laZardo

They tried to, but they got their asses kicked, their cities burned, and their slaves freed by us fake Americans ;)

Unless you're talking about WV. I live in SW Pennsylvania, and I know firsthand that WV's a beautiful state with a huge poverty problem. They actually offer teachers and medical professionals nice chunks of change to work down there since the state is so destitute no one wants to move there. Sad.

336 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:46:06pm

re: #326 Obdicut

I always find the 'bootstraps' thing funny, because I think a lot of people don't really realize it refers to something impossible. You can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

A lot of people miss that irony.

That's the thing, the irony is deafening. It's magical thinking because it's an ideal or concept that is posited as a practical process for improving your situation. So cut me a tad bit of slack when you see me type 'trade in your foodstamps for bootstraps' for the 245th time LOL.

337 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:46:16pm

re: #332 ggt


Turn 40 Have a child and EVERYTHING changes.

FTFY.

With a 9 year old asleep upstairs, I no longer give a rats ass about myself other than as necessary to keep myself alive long enough.

The rest is irrelevant.

338 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:47:39pm

I might be coming down with a bout of "internet expert" overload here any minute now.

//

339 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:47:45pm

re: #287 Obdicut

Hypocrisy, table of one?

He'll take his order to go.

340 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:48:15pm

re: #333 lostlakehiker

Why the hell did you decide life span is some sort of proxy for anything, anyway?

not that it really matters, since you're just faking all your numbers anyway.

341 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:48:37pm

re: #333 lostlakehiker

We do NOT have a moral responsibility to equalize wages, as in outright, numerical equality. Maybe the EITC should be larger, but at some point, attenuation suffices. The overall equity of a distribution of income has to do with income after transfer payments. It is better to have wages themselves be real, money that's paid the worker because of his work. And then, if that work is of low value, sweeten the pot as we do with various transfers, so that when it's all taken into account, things work out.

It would be nice if we could boost more of the poor up into steady middle class employment. We do try, and many do succeed. But not all. Anything in that vein that's working, I'm all for it.

The lifespan of reservation Indians is a blot on the record of the department of the interior. They've been systematically cheated of their extraction industry royalties, which accounts for some of the poverty. There are indeed no jobs, or next to none, so they must manage on far less money than we've been talking. On top of that, there's alcohol. And health care is pretty much nonexistent.

Without getting into the reasons for the sky high alcoholism rates on reservations, I'll just observe that those rates are not replicated among the working poor, who have it much better, and who, I'm claiming, don't face those kinds of miserably shortened life spans.

Your six year gap for Indians corroborates my claim. If the gap is 6, for a population whose lot is far more dire than that of the employed working poor, the group we're talking about, then how big can it be for the working poor themselves? 3 years? 2 years? Somewhere in there seems about right.

TLDNR

342 Interesting Times  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:49:01pm

re: #321 ggt

OMG, I remember 3.35 an hour --I worked fast-food in High School.

If it weren't for unbiblical, unconstitutional minimum-wage laws forbidding such glorious free-marketry now, unemployment would cease to exist!

Hugs and kisses,
Michele Bachmann & David Barton

343 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:50:03pm

re: #21 dragonfire1981

I still have a sneaking suspicion Bachmann will get the nomination. I guess I just feel with the Tea Party running wild the traditional logic may not hold.

My money is currently on Perry.

344 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:50:07pm

re: #339 BigPapa

He'll take his order to go.

No, I left it in the trash, and it wasn't my order.

345 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:50:08pm

re: #311 Dark_Falcon

We do see that half. But what we are saying is that so much of the population lives in places like California that to exclude both it and New york City is to make your population unrepresentative. I'm questioning your methodology, not your values.

I guess I didn't spell out my premises emphatically enough. We were talking Texas, at the outset. I claimed that this sort of budget living was possible. It's possible in lots of places. It's completely preposterous in Aspen or NYC. It's unworkable in SF, in all of AK or HI, and granted, a lot more places. But it's doable in Kansas City, or Memphis, or Denver, or Waco.

Median family income is only some 50K. Going by the discussion here, even that's not a living wage. OK, not in Aspen. But since a whole half the nation manages on that or less, ---it's got to be possible in a lot of places.

Over and out.

346 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:50:51pm

Our next president!

Image: a.jpg

347 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:51:20pm

re: #323 wlewisiii

What an utterly stupid way to spend a Saturday night - drinking whiskey and arguing with a troll.

kyrie eleison
christe eleison
kyrie eleison.

Youtube Video
348 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:51:25pm

re: #346 reuven

Next president could not be loaded.

349 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:51:30pm

re: #321 ggt

OMG, I remember 3.35 an hour --I worked fast-food in High School.

Man..We were poor with a kid and more on the way..Those were tough days when we were young..
I took a civil service test for the DOD one day..I got so lucky..I aced the test and was a top 3 score.. The Government gives you a choice of postions.. I went to work as Code 99 at Mare Island as a Nuke worker and they ( You ) paid for another 3 years of College.. I worked 20 years for the DOD and have a nice career now All because of that damn lucky test..I have said this forever..If you are unemployed take a civil service test...

350 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:52:00pm

re: #66 lostlakehiker

A job that pays poorly still pays more than no job. People are voting with their feet. Oh, and any job pays a living wage. You won't die of hunger because you cannot afford 2500 calories a day. You won't die of exposure because you can't afford any legal housing.

Eating a moldy piece of cake is better than eating no cake at all, no? Eating rotting meat is better than no meat at all, no?

I'm glad most of my clients have this attitude about me working for them.

351 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:53:03pm

re: #345 lostlakehiker

I guess I didn't spell out my premises emphatically enough. We were talking Texas, at the outset. I claimed that this sort of budget living was possible. It's possible in lots of places. It's completely preposterous in Aspen or NYC. It's unworkable in SF, in all of AK or HI, and granted, a lot more places. But it's doable in Kansas City, or Memphis, or Denver, or Waco.

Median family income is only some 50K. Going by the discussion here, even that's not a living wage. OK, not in Aspen. But since a whole half the nation manages on that or less, ---it's got to be possible in a lot of places.

Over and out.

Goodnight, LLH.

352 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:53:08pm

re: #327 jaunte

Another bit from the paper linked above, talking about the 'character issue' as it relates to poverty:

Why do sophisticated wealthy people who can easily afford to pay their taxes and hire professional accountants and lawyers to make sure that they do not make “mistakes” still cheat on their tax payments? The answer is pretty simple: they do so because they think that they can get away with it. The resulting theft comes to orders of magnitude more than property theft by the poor: in 2002 the total economic loss from property theft (burglary, larceny-theft, and motor vehicle theft) was estimated to be somewhere around $16.6 billion (in 2002 dollars) while the total amount of cheating on taxes in 2001 was estimated to be over $300 billion.


Timothy Geithner, they're talking about you.

353 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:53:18pm

re: #344 Naso Tang

No, I left it in the trash, and it wasn't my order.

I hope you see I was making a joke even though it seems we are on a different side of an argument. It seems you reciprocated.

354 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:53:22pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

This old school high church anglo-catholic has always had a soft spot for that song ;) For some funny reason, ya' know?

355 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:53:25pm

re: #340 Obdicut

Magical Balance Fairy?
Or pull it out of your bottom?
Numbers suck, either way!

356 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:53:51pm

I have been both poor and rich. I vastly prefer being rich.

There is indeed a certain nobility in being poor: the nobility of making decent grades despite working nights to help my parents feed my younger siblings, the nobility of serving in Vietnam because I could not initially afford to go to college, the nobility of struggling through college while I lived in an attic and worked yet more menial jobs.
There is also nobility in giving a poor couple you never met before $5K out of your own pocket so they can afford a decent funeral for their dead child. There is nobility in owning 10,000 books and in having a scholarship fund in your own name and in a million other things you can't do if you don't have the money.
As for the poor not being prey to the same temptations and moral pitfalls as the rich, well, that is true. I know of a woman in Lubbock whose 9 children all have different fathers. She is not a member of one of our "better" families. Rich guys seldom risk their lives to steal copper wire from a live broadcast tower, though they may try to steal the whole station some other way.

357 jaunte  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:53:52pm

re: #350 BigPapa

You were lucky to have a moldy piece o' cake to live in! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road!

358 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:54:20pm

re: #337 wlewisiii

FTFY.

With a 9 year old asleep upstairs, I no longer give a rats ass about myself other than as necessary to keep myself alive long enough.

The rest is irrelevant.

No, I'm going to stick with the turning 40 part.

All the sudden, if you didn't need them before, glasses are necessary --they cost money.

All of the sudden, getting out of bed, hurts. Hell, getting out of a chair hurts.

The body just doesn't seem to want to work as well as it used to. You start attending more funerals than weddings. The old people in your family have gotten really old and need your help. Every time you turn around, someone or a kid wants money from you. Things you have to pay for but have no advanced warning and cannot budget for. Fixing things around the house is no longer safe or feasible and you have to hire someone to do it. Your friends that used to help out with such things, have their own lives now and aren't available anymore or have moved, or are in rehab or cancer treatment.

When you have a free-time you either sleep or pay bills.

359 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:54:40pm

re: #37 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I think traditionalism is going to be her downfall.

Pentecostals and Charismatics (like the ORU-ites that gave her that J.D.) may have less of a problem with women's leadership, but they are a minority among con Christian R-voters, and the SBC is the flagship denomination of the GOP. They can't even deal with women's ordination, and already Bryan Fischer is starting to get antsy about it.

They are on a serious, cultural collision course over gender. Good. But Bachmann's the one it's going to affect.

If I'm reading the signs correctly, though, Fischer almost immediately backtracked that with musings about how, if there IS no suitable man, God COULD anoint a woman...

Palin started it, but this sexy-madonna-candidate thing does seem to have a certain ongoing degree of pull.

360 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:54:41pm

re: #325 Gus 802

I was in Denver. Mostly single family residential. Also working with a developer building custom built homes. Apartments, commercial, zoning changes, mini-storage, etc. Stuff like that. Did a landmark home renovation set a couple of years ago. Most recently it's been on updating some apartments for Generation-Y renters. I'll do whatever the clients wants for the most part. The usual: site plan, floor plans, elevations, sections, renderings.

Ah, spoken like a true craftsman! Far too many of our profession think of themselves as 'artists' making 'art', when in fact they are practicing a craft that speaks to a time honored interplay between clientele and problem solving. I like what you do, it's called true and honest work.

361 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:54:51pm

Our Next President (Take 2)

Image: 6040733056_0447e0946f_o.jpg

Given how carefully she tried to protect her public image (if you read the New Yorker profile, reporters were admonished not to photograph he in casual clothes) you wonder why she didn't do the ladylike thing and use a knife and fork.

362 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:55:31pm

re: #41 jaunte

I'm afraid Perry is going to be the nominee.

I am starting to think that that's the way the wind blows.

363 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:55:45pm

re: #356 Shiplord Kirel

Do you really have 10,000 books and a scholarship in your name?
I'm jealous - huge bibiophile here. Unfortunately most of my books are in storage at the moment.

364 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:56:24pm

re: #362 SanFranciscoZionist

I am starting to think that that's the way the wind blows.

Yeah the energy is colescing around him right now. I wonder where that leaves Bachmann - she isn't really a great VP.

365 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:57:55pm

re: #361 reuven

Our Next President (Take 2)

Image: 6040733056_0447e0946f_o.jpg

Given how carefully she tried to protect her public image (if you read the New Yorker profile, reporters were admonished not to photograph he in casual clothes) you wonder why she didn't do the ladylike thing and use a knife and fork.

She is so freakin' naive she probably didn't realize what image she was giving the reporters.

366 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:58:09pm

re: #321 ggt

OMG, I remember 3.35 an hour --I worked fast-food in High School.

I remember my first minimum wage job.

I was 16 and got a dishwasher's job at one of Fuzzy Thurston's Left Guard restaurants. (He had played Left Guard for the Packers in the Glory Days)

I busted ass for 2 weeks and happily took my first paycheck to the bank.

It bounced.

That did more to turn me into a leftist than any other single moment.

My labor was, essentially, meaningless. We came long after the other capitalist debtors. Never mind that without me and those like me they wouldn't have gotten anything...

Feh. Squared.

367 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:58:12pm

re: #363 Alexzander

Do you really have 10,000 books and a scholarship in your name?
I'm jealous - huge bibiophile here. Unfortunately most of my books are in storage at the moment.

mine too

368 Firstinla  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:58:22pm

re: #326 Obdicut

I always find the 'bootstraps' thing funny, because I think a lot of people don't really realize it refers to something impossible. You can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

A lot of people miss that irony.

Part of the irony is that when one bends over to reach for the bootstraps there is some body right behind them to screw 'em.

369 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:58:37pm

re: #364 Alexzander

Yeah the energy is colescing around him right now. I wonder where that leaves Bachmann - she isn't really a great VP.

No, but she'd be a great Chief of Staff for that 'right' candidate.

370 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:58:56pm

re: #345 lostlakehiker

I guess I didn't spell out my premises emphatically enough.

Emphatically?

What can I say? This is a broad issue that some wish to drill down (or ding down) to a specific point that gives them a momentary advantage in a blog.

There is no simple solution, or answer. It is a matter of education, of culture, of money, of empathy, of religion and national identity; and probably more.

A pointless argument when conducted for points.

Goodnight.

371 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 9:59:12pm

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Actual numbers: The comparison between the poorest and the wealthiest shows an 18 year gap in average age of death.

But oh noes, that includes smoking and obesity so it doesn't count because obviously things that are actually associated with poverty shouldn't be considered because I forget why.

372 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:00:44pm

re: #370 Naso Tang

I love people writing on a blog about how lame it is to write on a blog.

373 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:01:11pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

To me, special underwear is the same as a hijab: It goes in the "so what?" bin. I don't care if Romney and Huntsman wear such things, just as long as they are effective leaders. It's within their rights and they're hurting no one, so its not a issue.

Ditto. I haven't been able to find out if Joe Lieberman wears his magic underwear or not.

374 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:02:04pm

re: #354 wlewisiii

This old school high church anglo-catholic has always had a soft spot for that song ;) For some funny reason, ya' know?

Me too. Especially the second verse:

When I was young I thought of growing old,
of what my life would mean to me
Would I have followed down my chosen road,
or only wished what I could be

It's a reminder to me to work to live a life which won't lead to regrets later.

375 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:02:14pm

re: #372 Obdicut

I love people writing on a blog about how lame it is to write on a blog.

LAME!

376 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:02:29pm

re: #363 Alexzander

Do you really have 10,000 books and a scholarship in your name?
I'm jealous - huge bibiophile here. Unfortunately most of my books are in storage at the moment.

I was just thinking that too. As a book hoarder myself (mostly architecture and design), I was overcome with joy this winter to be able (and lucky enough) to move my choice tomes into a shared studio in Red Hook for an amazingly cheap rent. The though of Placing any of my books to a storage facility fills me with sadness. I feel your pain and I hope you get reunited with your books soon!

377 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:02:35pm

re: #340 Obdicut

Why the hell did you decide life span is some sort of proxy for anything, anyway?

not that it really matters, since you're just faking all your numbers anyway.

The crazy thing to me is that if you leave off the drug abuse and just talk about middle class housing availability, the numbers don't jive either. I'll also assume working, healthy adults.

You can get a rental here for $750, maybe a duplex, but it's high crime. There are smaller places in middle-wealthier areas, but then everything else, food, clothing is expensive and you have drive farther for bargains.

There's a whole bunch of "incidentals" that can't be expected. $1000 in dental isn't going to work if you have a root canal or a crown or any dental work that's more than a cleaning.

Kids need more than clothes and food. School events cost money.

There are other events, birthdays, weddings, bar/bat mitzvah/christening, holidays, etc.

Electricity in my part of the world, South Florida with a population of about 5 million in 3 counties is out of control. A simple "luxury" like running your AC can cost $300 in the hot months - that's March to November. About $175 if you decide to sweat it out. You're talking $2000-$3500 a year on the low end.

Some landlords require you to pay water. Another $200/year. Garbage is $300 a year.

378 Achilles Tang  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:02:37pm

re: #372 Obdicut

I love people writing on a blog about how lame it is to write on a blog.

Silly. It is not the writing, but what is written, sometimes.

379 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:02:42pm

re: #111 Atlas Fails

I wish I made that up, but I actually read such a sentiment from (who else) Victoria Jackson on WND a few weeks back. I still haven't completely stopped facepalming.

I'm going to regret this, but what do they do with 'sell all you have and give it to the poor'?

380 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:02:58pm

re: #370 Naso Tang

A pointless argument when conducted for points wrapped in anecdotal evidence, "free-market Jesus" platitudes and bullshit stats.

FTFY

381 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:03:11pm

re: #363 Alexzander

Do you really have 10,000 books and a scholarship in your name?
I'm jealous - huge bibiophile here. Unfortunately most of my books are in storage at the moment.

I really do, been accumulating them for 50 years. I arbitrarily count old magazines but not new ones in the total. I have a big collection of Popular Science and the like from the 30s and 40s, and a ton of science fiction paperbacks. My wife was an avid bibliophile and we used to go to estate sales together. The scholarship is in both our names. It isn't huge (most of them aren't) but I add to it when I can.

382 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:03:47pm

re: #120 b_sharp

When did God yell 'EAT ME'?

At the Last Supper, if I understand the origins of the ritual properly.

383 Kronocide  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:03:48pm

re: #370 Naso Tang


A pointless argument when conducted for points.

Indeed. I see the Bootstrappy Argument constructed of clever sounding points that when constructed and thought out are nothing more than clever sounding points. I bought it as a complete reasoned argument for years when it was just an erector set of talking points.

384 CuriousLurker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:04:00pm

re: #376 Surabaya Stew

Red Hook? Do you live in Brooklyn?

385 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:04:29pm

re: #367 ggt

mine too

Ouch, that does hurt. Good luck to you too in getting your books a nicer home!

386 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:04:41pm

re: #376 Surabaya Stew

I was just thinking that too. As a book hoarder myself (mostly architecture and design), I was overcome with joy this winter to be able (and lucky enough) to move my choice tomes into a shared studio in Red Hook for an amazingly cheap rent. The though of Placing any of my books to a storage facility fills me with sadness. I feel your pain and I hope you get reunited with your books soon!

Thank you! I was recently re-united with three boxes which I hadn't seen in a year. I know how one bookcase full of my books so its not too terrible. But the vast majority of my books have been in storage now for nearly three years. My most recent apartment could actually hold most of them but its in a different city and country than the storage.

387 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:05:09pm

re: #366 wlewisiii

I remember my first minimum wage job.

I was 16 and got a dishwasher's job at one of Fuzzy Thurston's Left Guard restaurants. (He had played Left Guard for the Packers in the Glory Days)

I busted ass for 2 weeks and happily took my first paycheck to the bank.

It bounced.

That did more to turn me into a leftist than any other single moment.

My labor was, essentially, meaningless. We came long after the other capitalist debtors. Never mind that without me and those like me they wouldn't have gotten anything...

Feh. Squared.

Well, what did you expect, taking money from a Cheesehead. Serves you right, you lousy Packers fan!

/Go Bears! (Just going after Green Bay a bit. It's mandatory for all Bears fans whenever Green Bay comes up.)

388 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:05:16pm

From meth addict expert to American Indian expert in 20 seconds.

//

389 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:05:28pm

re: #381 Shiplord Kirel

I really do, been accumulating them for 50 years. I arbitrarily count old magazines but not new ones in the total. I have a big collection of Popular Science and the like from the 30s and 40s, and a ton of science fiction paperbacks. My wife was an avid bibliophile and we used to go to estate sales together. The scholarship is in both our names. It isn't huge (most of them aren't) but I add to it when I can.

Woah, those Sci-Fi Paperbacks could be worth some bucks.

I was an on-line used bookseller for awhile. Somehow, I never learned the part about when you stop selling, you have to stop buying. . .

Anyway, take care of those ppbks!!!!!

390 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:05:46pm

re: #382 SanFranciscoZionist

At the Last Supper, if I understand the origins of the ritual properly.

ROTFLAMO!

391 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:08:23pm

re: #381 Shiplord Kirel

I really do, been accumulating them for 50 years. I arbitrarily count old magazines but not new ones in the total. I have a big collection of Popular Science and the like from the 30s and 40s, and a ton of science fiction paperbacks. My wife was an avid bibliophile and we used to go to estate sales together. The scholarship is in both our names. It isn't huge (most of them aren't) but I add to it when I can.

Awesome. At my present rate I may have a few thousand books by the time I am 50 or 60 - although it has slowed down tremendously recently due to school and my economic situation. As soon as I find full time employment (or even just slightly better employment) I'll begin collecting again.
The vast majority of my books are in Western philosophy.

392 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:08:38pm

re: #379 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to regret this, but what do they do with 'sell all you have and give it to the poor'?

Silly San Franciscan! Don't you know Andy Schalfley is having that taken out of the Bible. It isn't conservative enough, and it was snuck in there by Communists.

/I wish was kidding, but that moron is trying something like that.

393 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:09:12pm

re: #387 Dark_Falcon

Well, what did you expect, taking money from a Cheesehead. Serves you right, you lousy Packers fan!

/Go Bears! (Just going after Green Bay a bit. It's mandatory for all Bears fans whenever Green Bay comes up.)

It's cool, I've been here long enough that you could have forgotten that slash. I actually made mention of Fuzzy's past mostly for you :D

394 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:09:15pm

re: #385 Surabaya Stew

Ouch, that does hurt. Good luck to you too in getting your books a nicer home!

I can't seem to get into the Kindle. I've tried. My son eventually took it. I like audio--but mostly because I don't have time to sit and read. With audio I can multi-task.

I have piles of books. Every once in a while, I take a week and power-read. I'd actually like to have a real library someday. It would be a purely selfish endeavor. I doubt by the time I die, anyone will value my silly collection. I do try to buy books worth reselling, but I have an idea most will be recycled.

I'll be the lady from Fahrenheit 451, with a house full of bookshelves.

395 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:09:38pm

Perry scares me. He's a dolt who would get waxed by Obama in any debate, but a good number of voters don't even watch debates. He has a money machine that could rival Obama's and would get serious backing from both corporations and influential socon groups like Citizens United. The main knock against, namely that he is a batshit insane creationist who associates with a truly loathsome group of religious fanatics, will be spun to feed into the right wing delusion of Christian persecution. Can't you hear it now? "The very religion this great nation was founded on is now under attack! Next thing you know, it'll be illegal to be a Christian! SekritMooslimCommunistAtheist!!11ty"

The secession thing will be probably be dismissed as some sort of "lost cause" protest over Obama's evil socialist plot to give everybody healthcare. If he can convince enough swing voters that he created jobs in Texas, he very well might gain an edge. A President Perry would make me seriously consider a move to Canada (no sarc, I'm 100% serious.)

396 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:10:14pm

I have a political book club meeting tomorrow at 10am and I still have three chapters to read....

397 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:10:36pm

re: #393 wlewisiii

It's cool, I've been here long enough that you could have forgotten that slash. I actually made mention of Fuzzy's past mostly for you :D

Thanks.

398 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:10:41pm

re: #382 SanFranciscoZionist

At the Last Supper, if I understand the origins of the ritual properly.

Yeah, you do. Sometime we're a little to close to it to remember properly, I fear.

399 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:10:41pm

re: #396 Alexzander

I have a political book club meeting tomorrow at 10am and I still have three chapters to read...

What book?

400 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:10:58pm

re: #384 CuriousLurker

Red Hook? Do you live in Brooklyn?

I'm just over the border in Woodhaven, Queens. (as a born and bred manhattanite, this took some getting used to!) only my (best) books are in Red Hook.

Plus, I still have 1000 other bOoks and 40 years of Nat Geo that are under threat in the old homestead. Am researching shipping costs to Indonesia, so that I can donate them to my book-loving Surabaya Sue!

401 BishopX  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:11:10pm

re: #333 lostlakehiker

We, as Americans, have established a right to life (food, shelter, some medical care). When someone is unable to provide those things for themselves we help them. Not always enough, but we try. The assumption underpinning this system is that normal people won't need help consistently. If you work hard, manage you personal life responsibly and watch your saving you should be able to get by with you dignity in hand. If you have a spot of bad luck society is there to help you out.

I would love to live in a society where that's true. Because it isn't true for most Americans living in poverty today. The fact of the matter is that everyone living at those levels is using forms of assistance, be it social (your friends helping you out), familial, societal (charities, food shelves...) or governmental (subsidized healthcare, ER visits, EITC, food stamps, welfare...). The choice before us is whether we raise income levels to the point where that isn't needed, or we continue trying to prop the poor up. We don't need to equalize wages, we just need to make sure the lower rungs are livable without constant assistance.

In terms of life expectancies, note that I was comparing the American Indian numbers to the average American numbers, not the upper-middle class numbers. There have been studies showing a 10 year gap within a single city. So to compare American Indians and upper-middle class white Americans, you've looking at something like an eleven year gap (half of the ten year difference plus the six year difference between the national average and the AmInd numbers) as a lower bound for poor individuals. That's a hell of a lot more than your posited 2-3 year gap.

402 3CPO  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:13:23pm

I heard somewhere that the cow got three votes in the straw poll.

Go bovines!

403 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:13:34pm

re: #395 Atlas Fails

As Austin Blue has made clear, Perry is not a dolt. Don't think he is. You can say he's insincere, you can call him a wingnut, but don't call him stupid. The man has shown a very good sense of political timing and he has a strong ability to become what people want to see. He's also ruthless and unlike Sarah Palin, he isn't a quitter. If any Tea Party type can beat Obama, its Rick Perry.

404 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:14:00pm

re: #379 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to regret this, but what do they do with 'sell all you have and give it to the poor'?

My priest recently did a sermon on that. Basically his argument was that Jesus knew that was this young rich man's weak spot in obeying the law and prophets. Therefore, he was told to do that knowing that he would either fail or make the breakthrough to living fully for god. Unfortunately, the tale comes down to us as a failure and that's why it confuses us so.

405 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:14:06pm

re: #399 ggt

What book?

Here is the Amazon blurb:

Black Flame: The Revolutionary Class Politics of Anarchism and Syndicalism

Black Flame is the first of two volumes that reexamine anarchism’s democratic class politics, its vision of a decentralized planned economy, and its impact on popular struggles in five continents over the last 150 years. From the nineteenth century to today’s anticapitalist movements, it traces anarchism’s lineage and contemporary relevance. It outlines anarchism’s insights into questions of race, gender, class, and imperialism, significantly reframing the work of previous historians on the subject, and critiquing Marxist approaches to those same questions.

Lucien van der Walt teaches at the University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg.

Michael Schmidt is a Johannesburg-based senior investigative journalist.

Its a reading group composed primarily of graduate students in history or political science at the University of Washington.

406 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:14:29pm

re: #248 Spocomptonite

Exactly half of all cities in the U.S. are more expensive than average.
So, what do all the low-income earners do in the expensive areas? Mass migrate to Kansas like a reverse Dustbowl?

Some friends of mine are planning to go back to Montana, more or less for that reason.

407 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:16:00pm

The origin of the argument though was that Governor Rick Perry created jobs but the majority of them were minimum wage jobs. From Think Progress I find:

Additionally, Texas has by far the largest number of employees working at or below the federal minimum wage ($7.25 per hour in 2010) compared to any state, according to a BLS report. In 2010, about 550,000 Texans were working at or below minimum wage, or about 9.5 percent of all workers paid by the hour in the state. Texas tied with Mississippi for the greatest percentage of minimum wage workers…From 2007 to 2010, the number of minimum wage workers in Texas rose from 221,000 to 550,000, an increase of nearly 150 percent.

and

The Texas Independent added, “the median hourly earnings for all Texas workers was $11.20 per hour in 2010, compared to the national median of $12.50 per hour.”

Notice how it say at "or below" the minimum wage. At $7.25 we're talking peanuts. The question isn't about surviving on minimum wage which is feasible. The question is thus "is this the kind of future we expect from America?" A state governed by Perry and one that nearly ties impoverished Mississippi in minimum wage workers? A state that also has wages below the national median of $12.50 per hour?

408 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:16:18pm

re: #389 ggt

Woah, those Sci-Fi Paperbacks could be worth some bucks.

I was an on-line used bookseller for awhile. Somehow, I never learned the part about when you stop selling, you have to stop buying. . .

Anyway, take care of those ppbks!!!

My favorite is the very rare first (hardcover) edition of Hal Clement's Mission of Gravity from 1954, in near perfect condition. I tend to agree with the authors of the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction that this was "a flight of the imagination that has seldom been equaled."
I have 56 L. Sprague deCamp paperbacks that were signed by the author. I took the whole pile with me when I met him and he graciously signed all of them.

409 ReamWorks SKG  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:17:21pm

re: #94 austin_blue

I wish *I* had Magic Underwear.

BTW: We Jews have Magic Underwear, too! It's called a "talit katan" or sometimes just "tzitzit" [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

But our Magic Underwear isn't silly!

410 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:17:40pm

re: #405 Alexzander

Here is the Amazon blurb:

Its a reading group composed primarily of graduate students in history or political science at the University of Washington.

Oh, piffle on that black flag.

The people's flag is deepest red
It shrouded oft our martyred dead;
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold
Their hearts' blood dyed to every fold.

Then raise the scarlet standard high!
Beneath its folds we'll live and die.
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

411 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:17:47pm

re: #403 Dark_Falcon

As Austin Blue has made clear, Perry is not a dolt. Don't think he is. You can say he's insincere, you can call him a wingnut, but don't call him stupid. The man has shown a very good sense of political timing and he has a strong ability to become what people want to see. He's also ruthless and unlike Sarah Palin, he isn't a quitter. If any Tea Party type can beat Obama, its Rick Perry.

Let me be more clear: Perry would sound like a dolt in any debate. Just listen to his announcement from earlier today, it was just self-congratulatory bullshit mixed in with the standard dog whistles. He knows how to play the game though, there's no doubting that.

I would never vote for Mitt Romney, but I would deal with it if he got elected president. Perry, on the hand, might just scare me out of the country.

412 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:19:02pm

Stimulus-Hating Gov. Rick Perry Used Stimulus to Balance Texas Budget

Gov. Rick Perry used federal stimulus money to pay 97 percent of Texas's budget shortfall in fiscal 2010--which is funny, because Perry spent a lot of time talking about just how terrible the stimulus was. In fact, Texas was the state that relied most heavily on stimulus funds, CNN's Tami Luhby reports.

"Even as Perry requested the Recovery Act money, he railed against it," Luhby writes. "On the very same day he asked for the funds, he set up a petition titled 'No Government Bailouts.'" It called on Americans to express their anger at irresponsible spending...

413 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:19:03pm

re: #407 Gus 802

The origin of the argument though was that Governor Rick Perry created jobs but the majority of them were minimum wage jobs. From Think Progress I find:

and

Notice how it say at "or below" the minimum wage. At $7.25 we're talking peanuts. The question isn't about surviving on minimum wage which is feasible. The question is thus "is this the kind of future we expect from America?" A state governed by Perry and one that nearly ties impoverished Mississippi in minimum wage workers? A state that also has wages below the national median of $12.50 per hour?

Well, Texas is starting to add oil industry jobs again. Hopefully, those will go to some people in-state and raise income levels. Though a rise in higher wage jobs like that will also create some low-wage jobs as well, such as for retail workers in grocery stores or Wal-Marts.

414 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:19:51pm

re: #288 lostlakehiker

Places as described are almost always available in the classifieds of my town, and for $700 or less.

And the town isn't a dump. You simply don't know what rents are outside your own locale.

And you appear happy to insist that no minimum-wage worker should live in my entire STATE.

I'm not sure how this will work out in real life for any of us. For one thing, we have a shitload of them, so Fredonia may be about to get a nasty surprise when everyone shows up. For another, the state will grind to a horrible halt when the workforce leaves.

415 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:20:06pm

re: #410 wlewisiii

Oh, piffle on that black flag.

Youtube Video
416 CuriousLurker  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:20:34pm

re: #400 Surabaya Stew

I'm just over the border in Woodhaven, Queens. (as a born and bred manhattanite, this took some getting used to!) only my (best) books are in Red Hook.

Plus, I still have 1000 other bOoks and 40 years of Nat Geo that are under threat in the old homestead. Am researching shipping costs to Indonesia, so that I can donate them to my book-loving Surabaya Sue!

Small world! I lived in Woodhaven, about 8 blocks form Cypress Hills cemetery, before moving to Jersey 6 years ago. God, has it already been that long? I really miss it. When I first came to NYC I loved in Red Hook for about 2 months.

417 laZardo  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:21:18pm

re: #410 wlewisiii

Still can't beat this:

Youtube Video
418 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:21:26pm

re: #411 Atlas Fails

Let me be more clear: Perry would sound like a dolt in any debate. Just listen to his announcement from earlier today, it was just self-congratulatory bullshit mixed in with the standard dog whistles. He knows how to play the game though, there's no doubting that.

I would never vote for Mitt Romney, but I would deal with it if he got elected president. Perry, on the hand, might just scare me out of the country.

He'll sound like a dolt to you now, when he's trying for Tea Party votes, but he'll sound much closer to the middle during the general election, if he makes it that far.

Note: I not saying he'll be closer to the center, just that he will sound like he is.

419 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:21:47pm

re: #408 Shiplord Kirel

My favorite is the very rare first (hardcover) edition of Hal Clement's Mission of Gravity from 1954, in near perfect condition. I tend to agree with the authors of the Encyclopedia of Science Fiction that this was "a flight of the imagination that has seldom been equaled."
I have 56 L. Sprague deCamp paperbacks that were signed by the author. I took the whole pile with me when I met him and he graciously signed all of them.

I am so jealous.

420 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:22:31pm

re: #410 wlewisiii

Oh, piffle on that black flag.

Anarcho-syndicalism and anarch-communism are in some ways more like radical socialism (minus authoritarian hierarchical structure) than the brick throwing 'insurrectionary' anarchists.

421 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:23:44pm

Herman Cain Quotes Pokémon Theme Song
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

422 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:24:20pm

re: #417 laZardo

The anthem of one of the most murderous regimes in history. Not something I want to hear. Communism kills.

423 Digital Display  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:24:22pm

RIP Ernie Johnson Sr.
Ernie Johnson Sr., who was a fixture in the Atlanta Braves broadcast booth when their telecasts were beamed across the nation on TBS cable, died Friday night at age of 87 of an undisclosed cause. Johnson, the father of TBS and TNT broadcaster Ernie Johnson Jr., pitched for the Boston and Milwaukee Braves before becoming the voice of the Braves on radio and TV.

"Ernie was the heart and soul of the Braves for so long, first as a player and then as the voice of the team in the broadcast booth," team general manager John Schuerholz said. "Our hearts are heavy today and we will miss him dearly."

The Braves will wear a commemorative patch on their uniforms the rest of the season. Johnson's final full season was in 1999. (AP)

Read more: [Link: www.stltoday.com...]

424 laZardo  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:24:48pm

re: #421 Varek Raith

"I want to be the very best, like no one ever was. To win the election is my real test, and America is my cause."

425 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:24:56pm

re: #421 Varek Raith

Herman Cain Quotes Pokémon Theme Song
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yeah I saw that too. Wish he would clarify.

426 Gus  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:25:24pm

re: #413 Dark_Falcon

Well, Texas is starting to add oil industry jobs again. Hopefully, those will go to some people in-state and raise income levels. Though a rise in higher wage jobs like that will also create some low-wage jobs as well, such as for retail workers in grocery stores or Wal-Marts.

Maybe. A lot of times the higher paying jobs during the construction phase goes to out of state employees. So it would only work if they become permanent residents of Texas. But they'll take what they can nonetheless. It's also important to add that things are moving ahead despite the rumor that Obama put a stop to such oil exploration and recovery.

427 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:25:57pm

re: #418 Dark_Falcon

He'll sound like a dolt to you now, when he's trying for Tea Party votes, but he'll sound much closer to the middle during the general election, if he makes it that far.

Note: I not saying he'll be closer to the center, just that he will sound like he is.

So I'm curious DF. You're a traditional Eisenhower Republican, I think is fair to say. Who would you vote for in an Obama/Perry race? Would you opt for third party and essentially throw your vote away, or would you hold your nose and pull the lever for the lesser of two evils in your eyes?

428 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:26:11pm

re: #425 Alexzander

Yeah I saw that too. Wish he would clarify.

Pikachu, THUNDERBOLT!
Take that reporter!

429 Kragar  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:27:29pm

re: #421 Varek Raith

Herman Cain Quotes Pokémon Theme Song
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Palin and Bachmann then bust in:

"Prepare for Trouble...and make it double!"

430 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:28:45pm

Watch this for a contemplative moment:

Egyptian and Tunisian Revolutions in Carl Sagan's "Earth the Pale Blue Dot"

Youtube Video
431 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:28:56pm

I'm off to sleep.

Have a great morning all!

And please don't forget to get the facts out to those you can.

Pages Post #1

Pages Post #2

432 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:30:22pm

re: #428 Varek Raith

Pikachu, THUNDERBOLT!
Take that reporter!

Its super effective!!

433 laZardo  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:30:54pm

re: #429 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"To protect the world from Shariazation,
To unite God's people throughout the nation,
To denounce the evil of same-sex love,
And trumpet our values to heaven above!"

"Perry!"

"Michelle!"

"Team Republican, blast off at the speed of light!"

"Give us your birth certificate or prepare to fight!"

Sarah: "You betcha, that's right!"

434 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:31:36pm

re: #420 Alexzander

Anarcho-syndicalism and anarch-communism are in some ways more like radical socialism (minus authoritarian hierarchical structure) than the brick throwing 'insurrectionary' anarchists.

Oh, I hear where you're at, I'm just a very old school democratic socialist of the Mike Harrington school. So, I'll wave the red flag and you can wave the black one and between us we'll scare them all :D

435 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:31:44pm

re: #409 reuven

BTW: We Jews have Magic Underwear, too! It's called a "talit katan" or sometimes just "tzitzit" [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

But our Magic Underwear isn't silly!

All magic underwear is silly. It just seems sillier when it's someone else's tradition.

436 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:32:36pm

re: #427 Atlas Fails

So I'm curious DF. You're a traditional Eisenhower Republican, I think is fair to say. Who would you vote for in an Obama/Perry race? Would you opt for third party and essentially throw your vote away, or would you hold your nose and pull the lever for the lesser of two evils in your eyes?

I started out calling myself a Gingrich Republican, since the GOP takeover of Congress in 1994 was the first time I started to follow politics closely. I no longer call myself that, because Newt has fallen far since those days. I'm no part of the Tea Party, but I'm still well to the right of Ike.

As for Perry/Obama, I'd vote for one of the two of them. I don't cast protest votes.

437 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:34:14pm

This is a hell of a note:
Authorities: 4 dead in Indiana fair stage collapse

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Authorities say they have confirmed at least four deaths after a stage collapsed during a storm at the Indiana State Fair, where country act Sugarland was set to perform.

Indiana State Police said the number of people hurt has risen to about 40, with their injuries ranging from minor to serious. The incident happened Saturday night at the fairgrounds in Indianapolis.

Strong winds caused the stage rigging for the outdoor concert to collapse, trapping and injuring concert-goers shortly before 9 p.m.

Witnesses say no one was performing at the time. The opening act had finished, and the crowd was waiting for Sugarland to take the stage.

The collapse came as some fans were leaving to seek shelter. An evacuation had not yet been ordered.

438 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:34:35pm

re: #434 wlewisiii

Oh, I hear where you're at, I'm just a very old school democratic socialist of the Mike Harrington school. So, I'll wave the red flag and you can wave the black one and between us we'll scare them all :D

I once read a biography of Emma Goldman, in which the author described meeting with some elderly people who had worked with her back in the day.

She had an Irish setter named 'Red Emma'. The geriatric anarchists were upset by this, because red was not their movement color. (And also, I suspect, because a bunch of Jews born in the Pale of Settlement in the 1890s probably didn't see naming a dog after someone as a great honor.)

439 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:35:00pm

re: #433 laZardo

"To protect the world from Shariazation,
To unite God's people throughout the nation,
To denounce the evil of same-sex love,
And trumpet our values to heaven above!"

"Perry!"

"Michelle!"

"Team Republican, blast off at the speed of light!"

"Give us your birth certificate or prepare to fight!"

Sarah: "You betcha, that's right!"

WOBBUFFET!

440 laZardo  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:35:07pm

re: #427 Atlas Fails

So I'm curious DF. You're a traditional Eisenhower Republican, I think is fair to say. Who would you vote for in an Obama/Perry race? Would you opt for third party and essentially throw your vote away, or would you hold your nose and pull the lever for the lesser of two evils in your eyes?

I'm a TR Republican. Speak softly, carry a big stick for trustbusting, and the only way to hunt wildlife is by riding into their territory on mooseback and throttling them with your bare hands in a no-holds-barred fight to the death.

In the rain. because you have to get the vote of the "emotional" youth.

q;

441 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:35:29pm

re: #416 CuriousLurker

Small world! I lived in Woodhaven, about 8 blocks form Cypress Hills cemetery, before moving to Jersey 6 years ago. God, has it already been that long? I really miss it. When I first came to NYC I loved in Red Hook for about 2 months.

Really? Cool! I'm a bit further than that from Cypress Hills, but I live a few doors down from the childhood home of Mae West. It's pretty ok here, not too much noise, crime, or buildings over 3 stories. I do like Red Hook very much, it's one of the few really special neighborhoods in the City. It's just a great place to walk around and be in, close to the action of Manhattan and the hipper areas of Brooklyn, yet eerily quiet and distant at the same time.

442 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:35:43pm

re: #434 wlewisiii

Oh, I hear where you're at, I'm just a very old school democratic socialist of the Mike Harrington school. So, I'll wave the red flag and you can wave the black one and between us we'll scare them all :D

I'm not afraid, I'm just loading my shotgun. Got a whole bunch of ultra-leftists around so I've just got to start shooting, 'cause that's what conservatives are supposed to do.

/I'm just kidding. I don't own a shotgun anyway.

443 Firstinla  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:35:46pm

re: #423 HoosierHoops

I think it interesting how the announcers become very much a part of the sports team as well as the stadium them play in. It's hard to imagine Dodger baseball without Vin Scully. He's been calling those game for about 60 years.

444 laZardo  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:36:33pm

re: #442 Dark_Falcon

I'm not afraid, I'm just loading my shotgun. Got a whole bunch of ultra-leftists around so I've just got to start shooting, 'cause that's what conservatives are supposed to do.

/I'm just kidding. I don't own a shotgun anyway.

Everyone knows shotguns are only effective within 5 feet of the nozzle.

/ah video game physics

445 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:37:06pm

re: #436 Dark_Falcon

I started out calling myself a Gingrich Republican, since the GOP takeover of Congress in 1994 was the first time I started to follow politics closely. I no longer call myself that, because Newt has fallen far since those days. I'm no part of the Tea Party, but I'm still well to the right of Ike.

As for Perry/Obama, I'd vote for one of the two of them. I don't cast protest votes.

Given what I've seen of you here, I will simply say that I hope you come to understand that Obama is still closer to what you profess to believe than Perry ever will be. Not very close, mind, but better than him.

For you, Obama might be wrong, but have good intent.

Perry, OTOH, might be right (on some things, for you) but with evil intent.

I hope I know which way you would look at that.

446 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:38:06pm

re: #434 wlewisiii

Oh, I hear where you're at, I'm just a very old school democratic socialist of the Mike Harrington school. So, I'll wave the red flag and you can wave the black one and between us we'll scare them all :D

Yeah I'm not too dogmatic about political orientations, but what drew me to this reading group is that it is a serious discussion about anarchism without all of the usual (often true) cliches.
I can support movements for true democratic socialism too. Emphasis on a highly participatory democracy.

447 Kragar  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:38:41pm

re: #439 Varek Raith

WOBBUFFET!

Shut up Rush!

448 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:39:18pm

re: #447 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Shut up Rush!

I can totally see that.

449 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:41:59pm

re: #438 SanFranciscoZionist

I once read a biography of Emma Goldman, in which the author described meeting with some elderly people who had worked with her back in the day.

She had an Irish setter named 'Red Emma'. The geriatric anarchists were upset by this, because red was not their movement color. (And also, I suspect, because a bunch of Jews born in the Pale of Settlement in the 1890s probably didn't see naming a dog after someone as a great honor.)

hahaha. So silly - the black flag was in part an attempt to move away from allegiances. And yet it spawned a whole set of different sub-flags for different sects.
The anarch-syndicalist flag is half red, half black.

This Monty Python and the Holy Grail moment never gets old:

Youtube Video
450 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:44:04pm

re: #438 SanFranciscoZionist

I once read a biography of Emma Goldman, in which the author described meeting with some elderly people who had worked with her back in the day.

She had an Irish setter named 'Red Emma'. The geriatric anarchists were upset by this, because red was not their movement color. (And also, I suspect, because a bunch of Jews born in the Pale of Settlement in the 1890s probably didn't see naming a dog after someone as a great honor.)

Also - I've been surprised to find out how big a role Jewish groups played in establishing the first anarchist organizations in the US.

451 laZardo  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:44:05pm

re: #449 Alexzander

hahaha. So silly - the black flag was in part an attempt to move away from allegiances. And yet it spawned a whole set of different sub-flags for different sects.
The anarch-syndicalist flag is half red, half black.

[Video]

I thought you meant this moment.

452 Alexzander  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:45:44pm

re: #451 laZardo

I thought you meant this moment.

Yeah I had that one in mind too! God I love Monty Python.

453 Varek Raith  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:46:27pm

And the mage goes down.
Night all.

454 laZardo  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:47:26pm

re: #453 Varek Raith

nitey

455 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:48:32pm

I'm going to sign off again and get to bed. I'll be back in the morning.

456 Atlas Fails  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:50:46pm

Goodnight everyone. I had more free time than expected this week (which is why I finally joined in the first place), so I don't expect to get as many posts in for next week or the foreseeable future. I'll join in when get the chance though!

457 Surabaya Stew  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 10:54:11pm

re: #455 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to sign off again and get to bed. I'll be back in the morning.

My thOughts exactly; it's been a long day for me. Thanks again to everybody for their support (from the previous thread) and may all lizards have a good night (especially Gus the Architect and CL the former Woodhavenite)!

458 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 11:08:55pm

re: #371 Obdicut

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Actual numbers: The comparison between the poorest and the wealthiest shows an 18 year gap in average age of death.

But oh noes, that includes smoking and obesity so it doesn't count because obviously things that are actually associated with poverty shouldn't be considered because I forget why.

I think this is because of two very fundamentally different ways of looking at human society: Societies as aggregates of different strata (classes, races, etc.) and societies as interplays of individuals.

459 austin_blue  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 11:21:39pm

re: #356 Shiplord Kirel

I have been both poor and rich. I vastly prefer being rich.

There is indeed a certain nobility in being poor: the nobility of making decent grades despite working nights to help my parents feed my younger siblings, the nobility of serving in Vietnam because I could not initially afford to go to college, the nobility of struggling through college while I lived in an attic and worked yet more menial jobs.
There is also nobility in giving a poor couple you never met before $5K out of your own pocket so they can afford a decent funeral for their dead child. There is nobility in owning 10,000 books and in having a scholarship fund in your own name and in a million other things you can't do if you don't have the money.
As for the poor not being prey to the same temptations and moral pitfalls as the rich, well, that is true. I know of a woman in Lubbock whose 9 children all have different fathers. She is not a member of one of our "better" families. Rich guys seldom risk their lives to steal copper wire from a live broadcast tower, though they may try to steal the whole station some other way.

Sweet. You rock, my man.

460 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Aug 13, 2011 11:27:58pm

re: #417 laZardo

Still can't beat this:

[Video]

Pft:

[Link: wfmu.org...]
[Link: wfmu.org...]

461 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 14, 2011 1:39:54am

re: #359 SanFranciscoZionist

If I'm reading the signs correctly, though, Fischer almost immediately backtracked that with musings about how, if there IS no suitable man, God COULD anoint a woman...

Palin started it, but this sexy-madonna-candidate thing does seem to have a certain ongoing degree of pull.

Yeah, not sure if you saw my post on it on a page, but Fischer is just quacking the same b.s. Gary De Mar did in 2008, about Palin. [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[For anyone not familiar, Gary De Mar is a Christian Reconstructionist of van Til/Rushdoony/lewrockwell-Gary North ilk.]

AFA and The Response is one thing. But Reconstructionism is another filthy beast that makes The Response look like the Teletubbies.

I do enjoy it how Mrs. Palin leaves con male bigots like Fischer and De Mar with such desperate blueballs, must say. /Schadenfreude

462 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 14, 2011 1:40:54am

re: #456 Atlas Fails

Goodnight everyone. I had more free time than expected this week (which is why I finally joined in the first place), so I don't expect to get as many posts in for next week or the foreseeable future. I'll join in when get the chance though!

Don't be a stranger. Love that handle, btw.

463 jamesfirecat  Sun, Aug 14, 2011 8:20:06am

re: #148 lostlakehiker

Are you dead? No. You're alive. My point exactly. My complaint is with the hyperbolic rhetoric of the phrase "living wage". It is not life and death that hangs in the balance.

If my parents weren't there for me to scrounge off of how long do you think I would be alive if I had to take my computer and my $10,000 in my bank, my $300 a month and pay back my college loans, and find a place to live + buy food for myself.

I'd give myself about a week at best.

$300 a month is not enough to survive on... or if you doubt me why don't you try donating all of your paycheck except for $300 a month for a few months and see how that works out for you?

464 lostlakehiker  Sun, Aug 14, 2011 4:59:58pm

re: #401 BishopX

We, as Americans, have established a right to life (food, shelter, some medical care). When someone is unable to provide those things for themselves we help them. Not always enough, but we try. The assumption underpinning this system is that normal people won't need help consistently. If you work hard, manage you personal life responsibly and watch your saving you should be able to get by with you dignity in hand. If you have a spot of bad luck society is there to help you out.

I would love to live in a society where that's true. Because it isn't true for most Americans living in poverty today. The fact of the matter is that everyone living at those levels is using forms of assistance, be it social (your friends helping you out), familial, societal (charities, food shelves...) or governmental (subsidized healthcare, ER visits, EITC, food stamps, welfare...). The choice before us is whether we raise income levels to the point where that isn't needed, or we continue trying to prop the poor up. We don't need to equalize wages, we just need to make sure the lower rungs are livable without constant assistance.

In terms of life expectancies, note that I was comparing the American Indian numbers to the average American numbers, not the upper-middle class numbers. There have been studies showing a 10 year gap within a single city. So to compare American Indians and upper-middle class white Americans, you've looking at something like an eleven year gap (half of the ten year difference plus the six year difference between the national average and the AmInd numbers) as a lower bound for poor individuals. That's a hell of a lot more than your posited 2-3 year gap.

Your idea of "making sure that the lower rungs re livable without constant assistance" is not feasible. The unfortunate reality is that the free market wages of a poor couple is insufficient in high-cost cities. It's sufficient, counting the help we provide, in lower-cost regions. But without much margin.

How are you going to change make the real, free market wage go up? It could, perhaps, be done by restricting immigration. Supply and demand logic will tell you that having more unskilled labor drives down the wages of unskilled labor. But it is national policy to keep the doors more or less open.

New and better technology can boost productivity, but often by doing jobs that used to be done by hand. No answer there.

You could legislate higher wages, but then many of the people doing work that's worth $8, but not $12, would be out of a job. You could subsidize the employer, but that's just a back door way of delivering help. What's wrong with delivering the help through the front door, with the earned income tax credit and the various other support programs? There is no real reason why the dignity of the working poor should suffer because they accept this help. They've done their part. In some ways, they've shown more character than the average bear. It's harder to suck it up and work for less, than it is to show up for work when the paycheck is sweeter.

465 lostlakehiker  Sun, Aug 14, 2011 5:07:15pm

re: #463 jamesfirecat

If my parents weren't there for me to scrounge off of how long do you think I would be alive if I had to take my computer and my $10,000 in my bank, my $300 a month and pay back my college loans, and find a place to live + buy food for myself.

I'd give myself about a week at best.

$300 a month is not enough to survive on... or if you doubt me why don't you try donating all of your paycheck except for $300 a month for a few months and see how that works out for you?

We were talking about people who had a job. With something approximating full time employment, and earning at least the minimum wage. If you were working 35 hours a week, at $8 an hour, your income would be way, way more than $300 per month.

With just 300 a month I couldn't do anything but live on the streets and buy day old bread. In the right climate, maybe death by exposure would be avoidable, but without any sort of home, you're wide open to any passing criminal. I never said that working off and on, a little bit, at the minimum wage, would be workable.

466 lostlakehiker  Sun, Aug 14, 2011 5:12:37pm

re: #414 SanFranciscoZionist

And you appear happy to insist that no minimum-wage worker should live in my entire STATE.

I'm not sure how this will work out in real life for any of us. For one thing, we have a shitload of them, so Fredonia may be about to get a nasty surprise when everyone shows up. For another, the state will grind to a horrible halt when the workforce leaves.

In reality, not all of CA is as expensive as SF. All I was saying was that even if I grant that CA is exceptionally expensive, much of the country is not. By very definition, exceptionally expensive areas are not the norm.

If you have all those people living on minimum wage, then that minimum wage has demonstrably been sufficient to keep them alive. But it's entirely possible that they're living crammed together, dangerously overcrowded. Relaxing the rules that make it hard to build new housing might be a start on mitigating any problem in that vein. CA has made the lives of its poor harder than they need be, and SF in particular has all but driven them out.

467 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 14, 2011 5:44:38pm

re: #466 lostlakehiker

By very definition, exceptionally expensive areas are not the norm.

But to make your faked-up numbers work, you actually need to assume that someone is living in one of the cheapest areas-- not an average one. And you need to pretend they can find housing within 10 miles of both their jobs.

Your contention that the minimum wage is sufficient to keep them alive is also fallacious, given that a lot of those people work multiple jobs precisely because it isn't.

I'm not expecting you to listen to any of this when you just steadfastly ignored it the past twenty times it was said to you, though.


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