Ron Paul’s Extremist Connections Redux

NYT: “Disowns extremists’ views but doesn’t disavow the support”
Politics • Views: 32,008

On page A1 of the New York Times today: Ron Paul Disowns Extremists’ Views but Doesn’t Disavow the Support.

(It’s more accurate to say that Ron Paul currently says he disowns these views, after promulgating them for decades.)

[Don] Black of Stormfront said the newsletters helped make him a Ron Paul supporter. “That was a big part of his constituency, the paleoconservatives who think there are race problems in this country,” Mr. Black said.

“We understand that Paul is not a white nationalist, but most of our people support him because of his stand on issues,” Mr. Black said. “We think our race is being threatened through a form of genocide by assimilation, meaning the allowing in of third-world immigrants into the United States.”

Mr. Black said Mr. Paul was attractive because of his “aggressive position on securing our borders,” his criticism of affirmative action and his goal of eliminating the Federal Reserve, which the Stormfront board considers to be essentially a private bank with no government oversight. “Also, our board recognizes that most of the leaders involved in the Fed and the international banking system are Jews.”

Mr. Paul is not unaware of that strain among his supporters. Mr. Crane of the Cato Institute recalled comparing notes with Mr. Paul in the early 1980s about direct mail solicitations for money. When Mr. Crane said that mailing lists of people with the most extreme views seemed to draw the best response, Mr. Paul responded that he found the same thing with a list of subscribers to the Spotlight, a now-defunct publication founded by the holocaust denier Willis A. Carto.

Mr. Paul said he did not recall that conversation, which was first reported in the libertarian publication Reason, and doubted that he would have known what lists were being used on his behalf. Yet he said he would not have a problem seeking support from such a list.

“I’ll go to anybody who I think I can convert to change their viewpoints — so that would be to me incidental,” he said. “I’m always looking at converting people to look at liberty the way I do.”

None of this will be news to long-time LGF readers, as Dave Weigel tweeted earlier:

Ron Paul and extremism: You can read the NYT today, or you can read @Lizardoid from four years ago. Ron Paul: No Problem with Donations from Neo-Nazis

For example, speaking of Don Black, founder of neo-Nazi site Stormfront, who could forget this picture of Black and his son Derek (in the creepy hat), posing with Ron Paul at the Values Voter Presidential debate in Fort Lauderdale on September 17, 2007?

Dan Kennedy recalls another LGF post from 2007, about a white nationalist’s claim that Ron Paul was secretly supportive of the racist movement: More on Ron Paul’s ties to the racist far right.

Four years ago, conservative blogger Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs reported that the Vanguard News Network, “one of the ugliest neo-Nazi sites on the Web,” was complaining that Paul had whispered sweet nothings in their ear while taking a very different stance in public.

Johnson reproduced part of a post by Bill White, the “commander” of the American National Socialist Workers Party, who wrote:

Both Congressman Paul and his aides regularly meet with members of the Stormfront set, American Renaissance, the Institute for Historic Review, and others at the Tara Thai restaurant in Arlington, Virginia, usually on Wednesdays. This is part of a dinner that was originally organized by Pat Buchanan, Sam Francis and Joe Sobran, and has since been mostly taken over by the Council of Conservative Citizens.

I have attended these dinners, seen Paul and his aides there, and been invited to his offices in Washington to discuss policy….

Paul is a white nationalist of the Stormfront type who has always kept his racial views and his views about world Judaism quiet because of his political position.

At the time, New York Times blogger Virginia Heffernan made mention of Johnson’s findings and got slapped down in an “editor’s note” for passing along “unverified assertions” and for failing to contact Paul for comment. You can no longer find Heffernan’s post at nytimes.com, but I wrote about it for the Guardian. I also sent an email to the Times’ then-public editor, Clark Hoyt, asking why a Times blogger was being punished for blogging, but I never received a response.

So when is it appropriate to write about the claims of the “commander” of a neo-Nazi group? I’m not sure there’s a good answer. As Johnson began his item four years ago, “Take this one with a grain of salt, please.” But given that the Times today goes page-one with a detailed report about Paul’s ties to Stormfront and other white-supremacist groups, it seems to me that White’s assertions are relevant and worth checking out.

It’s a little weird to have to go over this same ground again (“just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in”), but understandable in a way. The media have been dismissing Ron Paul out of hand for years, but this year he’s actually a contender for the GOP presidential nomination; maybe a long shot, but not a “no shot” any more.

It speaks volumes about the Republican Party’s lurch to the far right that a certified kook with years of connections to outright racists is a rising star.

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280 comments
1 lewispryor  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 11:46:55am

"[Mr.] Black of Stormfront" - LOL!!!! Nice one.

2 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 11:49:33am
It speaks volumes about the Republican Party’s lurch to the far right that a certified kook with years of connections to outright racists is a rising star.

And after those volumes are spoken, what about all the volumes that can be said about his zombie supporters?

A libertarian is a conservative who smokes weed.

3 freetoken  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 11:52:19am

At least some bloggers like Weigel are giving you credit. But, the slowness of the institutional press to really dig into what is going on around us demonstrates once again why blogging and online sources have destroyed the business models of the sclerotic institutional press.

And, I' still waiting on these same unresponsive news outlets to really dig into the wacky medical association to which the Pauls belong. It came up ever so briefly when Rand was running, but has yet to be made into an issue with Ron's latest ascent.

4 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 11:56:57am

re: #3 freetoken

At least some bloggers like Weigel are giving you credit. But, the slowness of the institutional press to really dig into what is going on around us demonstrates once again why blogging and online sources have destroyed the business models of the sclerotic institutional press.

And, I' still waiting on these same unresponsive news outlets to really dig into the wacky medical association to which the Pauls belong. It came up ever so briefly when Rand was running, but has yet to be made into an issue with Ron's latest ascent.

Right - the "Association of American Physicians and Surgeons." A bland-sounding name for a totally insane organization of quacks.

5 freetoken  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:01:49pm

re: #4 Charles

And, not one of the other GOP candidates have yet dared to point out that Paul gave an address to the JBS on their anniversary, lauding their causes.

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:04:56pm

re: #5 freetoken

And, not one of the other GOP candidates have yet dared to point out that Paul gave an address to the JBS on their anniversary, lauding their causes.

They may need the JBS.

7 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:05:58pm

kook with years of connections to outright racists is a rising star

gasbags also float upwards

8 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:06:24pm

I think my blood is solid chocolate.

9 dragonfire1981  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:06:28pm

I will likely never run for office, but if I do, I plan to follow a few basic rules:

1. I will not run any attack ads. I do not believe in "vote for me because the other guy sucks!" politics. It may cost me an election, but at least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing I ran an honest campaign.

2. Properly address issues from my past and publicly accept that yes, I've made some mistakes and missteps in my life rather than trying to bury skeletons.

3. Never flip flop. I refuse to change my views on things just because it may be vogue to do so. Again, this may cost me the election but I still want to run an honest campaign.

4. Be honest and transparent about my financials. If I have something to hide, why would you want to vote for me?

5. Choose a platform, stick to it and promote it as much as possible. I'd like to see one politician, just ONE at the federal level stick to policy almost all the time.

6. Run as financially responsible a campaign as possible. No $5000 steak dinners for me.

7. If I make a mistake, I will admit it and apologize. I will not try to pretend it wasn't a mistake or try to say it was a "joke" or other such nonsense.

In other words, I will NOT do just about everything the current GOP candidates have done and continue to do.

10 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:08:30pm

Speaking of quacks, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons is on the Quackwatch list:

[Link: www.quackwatch.org...]

11 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:10:09pm

Quackwatch

when asked hard questions, paul ducks like a quack

12 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:19:28pm

The Ron Paul Newsletter Decision Tree:
[Link: race42012.com...]

13 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:20:42pm

Link to another blog from quackwatch:

Fundamental Principles

A political advocacy organization comprised of doctors, lawyers and others who support free markets and limited government, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons defines itself as:

…a national association of physicians dedicated to preserving freedom in the one-on-one patient-physician relationship. AAPS members believe this patient-physician relationship must be protected from all forms of third-party intervention. Since its founding in 1943, AAPS has been the only national organization consistently supporting the principles of the free market in medical practice.

A preliminary review of cumulative indices of AAPS publications yields numerous dramatic descriptors indicative of the organization’s political orientation:

Criminalization Of Medicine
Eco-Imperialism
Government Arrogance
Incremental Socialism
Left Illusions
Medical Herdology
Physician Slavery
Police State of Medicine
Socialized Medicine

Interesting reading...

14 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:22:59pm

re: #8 EmmmieG

I think my blood is solid chocolate.

I got a m&m Christmas tree, thank you very much. There are four survivors left.

15 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:24:29pm

re: #14 Stanley Sea

I got a m&m Christmas tree, thank you very much. There are four survivors left.

Oh, the poor widdle orphaned m&m's. You'd better put them out of their misery.

16 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:26:46pm

re: #15 EmmmieG

Oh, the poor widdle orphaned m&m's. You'd better put them out of their misery.

If I can walk there I will.

17 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:28:58pm

AAPS - About Us

(video of Rand Paul and Judge Napolitano)

Take just a few minutes to read the below message from AAPS Past-President
Lee D. Hieb, M.D. about AAPS.

To serve the state? Or to serve our patients? That is the question we will increasingly face as government forces its power into every nook and cranny of our professional lives. I once belonged to all the standard societies—my specialty society, my state and local medical society and—dare I admit this—even the AMA. But I discovered that none of these societies stood on the principles I hold dear—individual liberty, personal responsibility, limited government, and the ability to freely practice medicine according to time honored Hippocratic principles.

18 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:29:53pm

By the way, the comments by Bill White about Ron Paul's supposed secret affection for Nazis are still posted at Stormfront.

19 wilburs  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:30:35pm

re: #12 jaunte

The Ron Paul Newsletter Decision Tree:
[Link: race42012.com...]

A more succinct explanation can not be offered

20 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:30:52pm

re: #17 BigPapa

So they turn away sick people who can't pay? Can't quite grasp.

21 wilburs  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:33:11pm

Meanwhile

CNN seems to be offering primary documents that "historian" Newt Gingrich seems to have overlooked.

[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]

22 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:35:11pm

re: #20 Stanley Sea

So they turn away sick people who can't pay? Can't quite grasp.

It's the John Birchoccratic Oath.

23 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:37:01pm

re: #19 wilburs

A more succinct explanation can not be offered

I should have put in the direct link:
[Link: race42012.com...]

24 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:38:29pm

re: #22 BigPapa

It's the John Birchoccratic Oath.

For people who confuse Hippocratic with hypocritical.

25 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:39:11pm

We tell our kids not to get us anything for Christmas every year.

This year? My attitude has changed entirely.

My son got me a fifth of Crown Royal for Christmas. I told him, he never need struggle with gift ideas for me again. If he gets me the same thing every year? I promise to look surprised.

(just thought I'd share, OT and all that)

26 wilburs  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:39:14pm

re: #23 jaunte

I should have put in the direct link:
[Link: race42012.com...]

scroll down the original page a bit and look at the picture of the Newt "rally"
LOLZ

27 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:39:51pm

Charles, check out that Neurodiversity Weblog. It's a really well ref'd read on the AAPS.

28 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:40:22pm

re: #26 wilburs

"One question: Were the crowd control stanchions really necessary?"

29 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:40:32pm

re: #23 jaunte

I should have put in the direct link:
[Link: race42012.com...]

Or even link the image:

The Ron Paul newsletter decision tree.

30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:41:42pm

re: #9 dragonfire1981

3. Never flip flop. I refuse to change my views on things just because it may be vogue to do so. Again, this may cost me the election but I still want to run an honest campaign.

Never say "never". I've flip-flopped on several things as I have grown smarter.

31 Olsonist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:41:58pm

My Paulian friends are out of town for the holidays but I'm going to have it out with them next week.

32 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:51:17pm

I think it's time for a new Ron Poll.

33 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:51:39pm

@BorowitzReport:
Ron Paul may benefit from Iowa's unique caucus rules, which allow people from other planets to vote.

34 lawhawk  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:54:21pm

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area this day after Christmas. Hope everyone got what they wanted for the holidays. Paul looks like he got himself a lump of coal from the NYT after they to dig into the rich manure he's compiled over the years - all the racist and anti Semitic newsletters, and the friends and co-travelers he's picked up over the years that ascribe to the views he now claims to disavow (but curiously wasn't disavowing just a few short years ago).

Paul's definitely a piece of work, but its those on the fringe who are supporting Paul unconditionally who are perhaps more worrisome. They're convinced that Paul's done nothing wrong and that he's espousing positions that should be pushed into the mainstream.

35 nines09  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:57:35pm

I had a very short conversation with a person who said Luap Nor said some things that made sense. I replied that you could've probably had a beer with Charles Manson and thought the same thing. Like I said, a very short conversation.

36 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:58:10pm

Worst Christmas gift ever!
Ron Paul's Book as Christmas Gift Makes Republican Girl Cry (with video)
"You're a dick!"

37 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 12:59:26pm

So simple. Never trust a guy with two first names.

38 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:03:11pm

re: #37 Stanley Sea

So simple. Never trust a guy with two first names.

You take that back about the Marquis de La Fayette.

39 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:04:50pm

Here's the C&L thread: Ron Paul's Book as Christmas Gift Makes Republican Girl Cry
First comment...

i think the youtube was pulled because the poster was this idiot shiksa's photographer and brother.

Really? Upset with a fact? Israel IS an apartheid nation. And on Jesus's big day, too. Shame to ruin it.

:P

40 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:07:01pm

re: #5 freetoken

And, not one of the other GOP candidates have yet dared to point out that Paul gave an address to the JBS on their anniversary, lauding their causes.

They are hoping Ron Paul implodes without having to call attention to the Birchers. If they have to mention the John Birch Society, the press will ask them "Then why did you speak at CPAC, where the JBS was present?". They don't need the Birchers so much as that it would be acutely embarrassing to get rid of them.

41 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:09:11pm

Ron Paul's extremist connections were, I thought, well-known, as is the strong overlap between libertarians in the US and white supremacists and racists of other stripes-- most often the "I'm post-racial" kind.

Rand Paul has certainly carried on that tradition. It's definitely part of their appeal, the intellectual cover that their kind of whacky libertarianism gives to racist sentiments.

But in terms of GOP candidates, he doesn't really stand out. Sure, maybe his connections are more overtly racist, but the rest have their supporters, too. And Romney's desire to deport every last illegal immigrant-- after some time for them to get their affairs in order, which is funny-- and send them to the 'back of the line', is probably more xenophobic than any position Paul has ever taken.

42 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:12:59pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Here's the C&L thread: Ron Paul's Book as Christmas Gift Makes Republican Girl Cry
First comment...

The whole thing is just shitty. Ron Paul is filth, both in his words and his deeds. The sooner he is gone from public life, the better America will be.

43 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:13:12pm

re: #21 wilburs

Meanwhile

CNN seems to be offering primary documents that "historian" Newt Gingrich seems to have overlooked.

[Link: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...]

Oh wow. Cited for contempt for failure to pay alimony.

It's because he just loved his country so much.

44 Charles Johnson  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:13:50pm

re: #41 Obdicut

Ron Paul's extremist connections were, I thought, well-known, as is the strong overlap between libertarians in the US and white supremacists and racists of other stripes-- most often the "I'm post-racial" kind.

Rand Paul has certainly carried on that tradition. It's definitely part of their appeal, the intellectual cover that their kind of whacky libertarianism gives to racist sentiments.

But in terms of GOP candidates, he doesn't really stand out. Sure, maybe his connections are more overtly racist, but the rest have their supporters, too. And Romney's desire to deport every last illegal immigrant-- after some time for them to get their affairs in order, which is funny-- and send them to the 'back of the line', is probably more xenophobic than any position Paul has ever taken.

I don't know about that -- it looks like Ron Paul advocates exactly the same 'no amnesty' policy:

[Link: www.ronpaul.com...]

And he goes further -- he wants to repeal the 14th amendment and eliminate birthright citizenship. And no social services at all for undocumented immigrants.

45 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:15:55pm

re: #44 Charles

Oh boy. I should have looked before I spoke. I thought Ron Paul was more okay with immigration, since most libertarians are. Well, that points more and more to him really being a white supremacist, then.

Sheesh. And end the 14th amendment.

Okay, I was wrong. Paul's stance is far more extreme than Romney's, unless Romney secretly wants to end the 14th, too.

But I do want to point out that Romney's position is still fucking insane, impossible to execute, costlier than Jesus with rims, and cruel beyond cruel.

And he's supposed to be, like, a real candidate.

46 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:18:41pm

IOWA (American Research Group):

Paul 21%
Romney 20%
Gingrich 19%
Perry 9%
Bachmann 8%
Huntsman 6%
Santorum 4%
Roemer 1%

a weakened organism is vulnerable to opportunistic infections

47 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:20:16pm

re: #44 Charles

I don't know about that -- it looks like Ron Paul advocates exactly the same 'no amnesty' policy:

[Link: www.ronpaul.com...]

And he goes further -- he wants to repeal the 14th amendment and eliminate birthright citizenship. And no social services at all for undocumented immigrants.

That indeed is far more radical than has ever been proposed before. It also makes him an unambiguous Neo-Confederate. The main reason for opposing the 14th Amendment is feeling that it intrudes upon "States' Rights" (and it was in fact written to give the Federal government the power to make sure the states obeyed the Constitution). And the people the whose rights the 14th Amendment was intended to protect? Black people of course. So Luap Nor is basically confirming his racism with his dislike of the 14th Amendment.

Stay Classy, Ron.

/spits

48 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:20:35pm

re: #46 engineer dog

Huntsman's up to 6%, and I think his craziest idea is only taxing income from labor, and leaving all unearned income completely untaxed.

which is still fucking crazy, though.

But he doesn't want to deport millions.

49 Jerk  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:20:39pm

re: #46 engineer dog

Didn't Huckabee win Iowa last time? Anyway, even if he does win the nomination (and not next-in-line Romney), he wil get his ass kicked by Obama.

50 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:21:20pm

re: #45 Obdicut

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

GMTA

51 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:25:14pm

re: #25 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

We tell our kids not to get us anything for Christmas every year.

This year? My attitude has changed entirely.

My son got me a fifth of Crown Royal for Christmas. I told him, he never need struggle with gift ideas for me again. If he gets me the same thing every year? I promise to look surprised.

(just thought I'd share, OT and all that)

Mmm. My favourite Canadian Whiskey.

52 Winny Spencer  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:28:08pm

The way this is developing, Mittens will win Iowa.

53 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:28:11pm

re: #49 Jerk

Didn't Huckabee win Iowa last time? Anyway, even if he does win the nomination (and not next-in-line Romney), he wil get his ass kicked by Obama.

The problem is that the nation needs both major parties functional, and a Ron Paul nomination would break the GOP for years to come. No one in my family would vote for him; You'd see all of us, Republicans and Democrats alike, voting for Obama. My father and I would hold our noses, but we'd do it. And then the Republicans of the South would lambast us as RINOs for having done so.

Some would reply: "Well, that would be good since a split GOP would give the Democrats a free hand." I'd urge those people to think again: The Democrats have made some very serious mistakes of their own in the last couple decades (such as job killing regulation and tax-spend-elect deals to public sector workers) and giving them unchecked reign would likely send America down the path to fiscal ruin. The American political system works best when the two parties act as a check on each other. A Republican or Democratic party with a medium term lock on power would be a very dangerous scenario.

54 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:28:50pm

I think you guys need to get on the Santorum bandwagon.

55 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:32:50pm

re: #41 Obdicut

Ron Paul's extremist connections were, I thought, well-known, as is the strong overlap between libertarians in the US and white supremacists and racists of other stripes-- most often the "I'm post-racial" kind.

Rand Paul has certainly carried on that tradition. It's definitely part of their appeal, the intellectual cover that their kind of whacky libertarianism gives to racist sentiments.

But in terms of GOP candidates, he doesn't really stand out. Sure, maybe his connections are more overtly racist, but the rest have their supporters, too. And Romney's desire to deport every last illegal immigrant-- after some time for them to get their affairs in order, which is funny-- and send them to the 'back of the line', is probably more xenophobic than any position Paul has ever taken.

Back of the line sounds more like the back of the bus.

56 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:33:23pm

re: #54 b_sharp

I think you guys need to get on the Santorum bandwagon.

Fetus ina box.

57 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:34:00pm

Wait, wait. Santorum is a type of psychoactive drug, right?

58 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:34:31pm

re: #56 Stanley Sea

Fetus ina box.

Just add water.

59 Amory Blaine  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:34:58pm

re: #54 b_sharp

I think you guys need to get on the Santorum bandwagon.

Only with a haz-mat suit on.

60 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:35:32pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Dark, what do you think of Romney's idea of deporting every last illegal immigrant?

61 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:36:24pm

re: #10 Charles

Speaking of quacks, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons is on the Quackwatch list:

[Link: www.quackwatch.org...]

Ha, I love Quackwatch.

62 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:38:57pm

re: #60 Obdicut

Dark, what do you think of Romney's idea of deporting every last illegal immigrant?

Foolish, and pandering to boot. What's worse is I know he doesn't really mean it, since he knows how impractical it would be.

That having been said, I often find Obama's ideas even less practical, which is why I'd vote for Romney.

63 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:39:43pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

Could you give an example for comparison?

64 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:40:20pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

Foolish, and pandering to boot. What's worse is I know he doesn't really mean it, since he knows how impractical it would be.

That having been said, I often find Obama's ideas even less practical, which is why I'd vote for Romney.

Name one of Obama's ideas less practical than deporting every illegal immigrant.

65 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:40:27pm

re: #61 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Ha, I love Quackwatch.

Doc Barrett is quite responsive to emails. I've asked him several times to clear up crap said by local quacks.

The WEB is so cool in the way it allows access to scientists.

66 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:41:31pm

re: #45 Obdicut

I thought Ron Paul was more okay with immigration, since most libertarians are.

As I understand the libertarian position (from reading an old copy of Reason at the laundromat), people can come here in droves, and they can pay taxes, but they can never be citizens and never receive any services. They must remain second class people. And the author of that article said something like, "Americans seem to have a problem with that." I hope we always do.

67 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:42:36pm

re: #64 Obdicut

Name one of Obama's ideas less practical than deporting every illegal immigrant.

His lack price panel for medicare (I forget the real name) instead of a proper overhaul of that program. He's railed about health care, but not fixed its big cost driver.

Back later.

68 allegro  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:42:38pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

The Democrats have made some very serious mistakes of their own in the last couple decades (such as job killing regulation and tax-spend-elect deals to public sector workers) and giving them unchecked reign would likely send America down the path to fiscal ruin.

What job killing regulations?
What are "tax-spend-elect deals to public sector workers"?
What Democratic policy proposals would "send America down the path to fiscal ruin"?

69 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:43:28pm

re: #64 Obdicut

Name one of Obama's idea less practical than deporting every illegal immigrant.

Dood, single payer medical coverage. It just doesn't work!

just doesn't work!

doesn't work!

70 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:43:48pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

Some strains of libertarians think that free travel (across borders) is just as important a right as any other, and they think that anyone who pays taxes should be treated as a 'citizen'. Basically, they replace citizen with taxpayer, kind of a corporate identity.

But yeah, there's plenty of libertarians who also hold their own citizenship like it's something they earned.

71 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:44:30pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

That indeed is far more radical than has ever been proposed before. It also makes him an unambiguous Neo-Confederate. The main reason for opposing the 14th Amendment is feeling that it intrudes upon "States' Rights" (and it was in fact written to give the Federal government the power to make sure the states obeyed the Constitution). And the people the whose rights the 14th Amendment was intended to protect? Black people of course. So Luap Nor is basically confirming his racism with his dislike of the 14th Amendment.

Stay Classy, Ron.

/spits

Overridden with Plessy vs Ferguson (1896), anyway, which the dumb confeds still exhibit their butthurt.

Too bad so many of these types make up the R base. They only like the 14th Amendment as it applies to white fetuses and on-paper companies.

72 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:44:50pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

His lack price panel for medicare (I forget the real name) instead of a proper overhaul of that program. He's railed about health care, but not fixed its big cost driver.

And you think his lack of a price panel for medicare is more impractical than deporting fifteen million people.

I don't think you actually, seriously believe that to be true.

And medicare is not the big cost driver of health care. I don't know why you think it is.

73 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:45:19pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Some strains of libertarians think that free travel (across borders) is just as important a right as any other, and they think that anyone who pays taxes should be treated as a 'citizen'. Basically, they replace citizen with taxpayer, kind of a corporate identity.

But yeah, there's plenty of libertarians who also hold their own citizenship like it's something they earned.

We acquired a used washing machine last April, so I'm way behind in my libertarian scholarship.

74 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:46:46pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Some strains of libertarians think that free travel (across borders) is just as important a right as any other, and they think that anyone who pays taxes should be treated as a 'citizen'. Basically, they replace citizen with taxpayer, kind of a corporate identity.

But yeah, there's plenty of libertarians who also hold their own citizenship like it's something they earned.

All the hard work their parents did in conceiving them.

75 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:46:57pm

re: #41 Obdicut

Yep. There is a kind of a bias in the msm toward "traditional" racial issues - as if the other candidates' bigotry towards women, Muslims, gays and others is somehow any better. They're all as disqualified as Paul is.

76 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:47:27pm

re: #72 Obdicut

And you think his lack of a price panel for medicare is more impractical than deporting fifteen million people.


ICE reveals cost for deporting each illegal immigrant

Ever wonder how much it costs to deport an illegal immigrant?
Now we know: $12,500.

Times 15 million.

77 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:48:36pm

re: #76 jaunte

That would buy a lot of health care.

78 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:48:39pm

re: #75 Sergey Romanov

It's kind of understandable that in the US, race is more charged and toxic, given the history of slavery. But it still is amazingly intellectually inconsistent, you're right.

And illegal immigration is a racial issue too, but it can be cast as though it's not so those with extremist views on it often fly under the racistdar.

79 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:49:31pm

re: #76 jaunte


ICE reveals cost for deporting each illegal immigrant

Times 15 million.

Does that include the higher wages necessary to get regular people to pick fruit and vegetables?

80 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:49:36pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Checks and balances of power. Often, albeit not lately the best combination has been a split of one party in the executive and the other in the legislative majority.

81 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:49:53pm

re: #79 b_sharp

Probably not.

82 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:50:07pm

re: #76 jaunte

Plus the cost of securing the borders and ports in a militarized way so that nobody could get back in, and clamping down on tourist/student visas or tracking those people, since many illegal immigrants just overstay their visas.

It's probably the most impractical plan I've ever heard uttered by a presidential candidate.

83 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:51:31pm

re: #82 Obdicut

"Mitt tells the people what they want to hear."

84 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:51:42pm

re: #80 Rightwingconspirator

Checks and balances of power. Often, albeit not lately the best combination has been a split of one party in the executive and the other in the legislative majority.

We just need the GOP to find sanity. I honestly don't see a path for them to do so. If nothing else, demographics are going to destroy them unless they adapt, but they've been getting more and more and more and more radical.

85 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:53:18pm

re: #84 Obdicut

Could be they are on the way out. Or at least a major faction of it is but that takes a cycle or two. I see their fall (as we know them) as a small but significant possibility.

86 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:53:46pm

re: #82 Obdicut

Plus the cost of securing the borders and ports in a militarized way so that nobody could get back in, and clamping down on tourist/student visas or tracking those people, since many illegal immigrants just overstay their visas.

It's probably the most impractical plan I've ever heard uttered by a presidential candidate.

The first thing that comes to my mind, we'll pay for the war with the oil.

And he was an incumbant with the most common ground since pearl Harbor.

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:54:47pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Some strains of libertarians think that free travel (across borders) is just as important a right as any other, and they think that anyone who pays taxes should be treated as a 'citizen'. Basically, they replace citizen with taxpayer, kind of a corporate identity.

But yeah, there's plenty of libertarians who also hold their own citizenship like it's something they earned.

Ron Paul is mostly the kind of libertarian who wants just enough government to protect everything that he, personally, has, if I get the sense of how he works correctly.

88 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:54:56pm

re: #84 Obdicut

We just need the GOP to find sanity. I honestly don't see a path for them to do so. If nothing else, demographics are going to destroy them unless they adapt, but they've been getting more and more and more and more radical.

The Tea Party in action.

89 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:55:10pm

Nice. Assuming that Romney's dumb plan would somehow save per-immigrant deported by a factor of ten-- that we're just using cargo trucks and forgoing that whole legal process thing-- just the deportation part of his idea would cost 22.5 billion dollars. It would also tank the economy of nearly every state. And it'd cost tons more to follow around all the people on student and visitor's and work visas to make sure they don't overstay.

And look what'd it would get us! Er... what would it get us, again?

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:55:29pm

re: #72 Obdicut

And you think his lack of a price panel for medicare is more impractical than deporting fifteen million people.

I don't think you actually, seriously believe that to be true.

And medicare is not the big cost driver of health care. I don't know why you think it is.

It's hard to compare campaign promises to actual, you know, stuff. To be perfectly fair.

91 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:56:38pm

re: #89 Obdicut

Nice. Assuming that Romney's dumb plan would somehow save per-immigrant deported by a factor of ten-- that we're just using cargo trucks and forgoing that whole legal process thing-- just the deportation part of his idea would cost 22.5 billion dollars. It would also tank the economy of nearly every state. And it'd cost tons more to follow around all the people on student and visitor's and work visas to make sure they don't overstay.

And look what'd it would get us! Er... what would it get us, again?

Piece of xenophobic mind.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:56:51pm

re: #76 jaunte


ICE reveals cost for deporting each illegal immigrant

Times 15 million.

Chanelling some of the less stable out there: it would be a lot cheaper if we cut out the paperwork and just loaded them in cattle cars to take south and dump.

93 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:57:13pm

re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist

It's hard to compare campaign promises to actual, you know, stuff. To be perfectly fair.

That's the problem here too, campaign promises are larger than life.

94 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:58:22pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

Chanelling some of the less stable out there: it would be a lot cheaper if we cut out the paperwork and just loaded them in cattle cars to take south and dump.

WARNING! WARNING! DANGER Will Rogers.

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:58:32pm

re: #89 Obdicut

Nice. Assuming that Romney's dumb plan would somehow save per-immigrant deported by a factor of ten-- that we're just using cargo trucks and forgoing that whole legal process thing-- just the deportation part of his idea would cost 22.5 billion dollars. It would also tank the economy of nearly every state. And it'd cost tons more to follow around all the people on student and visitor's and work visas to make sure they don't overstay.

And look what'd it would get us! Er... what would it get us, again?

Americans could sleep sounder at night, knowing that one batch of poor people who they feel intuitively are ripping them off have been removed from the country.

96 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:58:46pm

re: #91 Stanley Sea

Piece of xenophobic mind.

Lol, peace. Sorry.

97 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:59:14pm

re: #90 SanFranciscoZionist

It's hard to compare campaign promises to actual, you know, stuff. To be perfectly fair.

Sure. Leaving aside that if Romney had to run on his accomplishments in office, he'd have to run as a Democrat, I'd be happy to say that nothing Obama proposed in a campaign was ever as a impractical as Romney's proposal here.

And the whole 'deport everyone' idea is so batshit insane it really, really makes me go crazy that enough people aren't saying "That's fucking insane, Mr. Romney." He just gets to say that and have it be treated like he just made some modest proposal.

It hits a trifecta: It's insanely cruel, insanely unworkable, and insanely costly.

98 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 1:59:39pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

The troubling part of the promise is that these are the people whose votes Romney thinks he has to win.

99 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:01:47pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

Chanelling some of the less stable out there: it would be a lot cheaper if we cut out the paperwork and just loaded them in cattle cars to take south and dump.

Yeah. I'm sure Mexico would gladly take our illegal immigrants from Guatemala. Of course that's what most of these yahoos think -- that they're all from Mexico. I think they only make up 60 percent.

100 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:02:54pm

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

Americans could sleep sounder at night, knowing that one batch of poor people who they feel intuitively are ripping them off have been removed from the country.

This goes back to my "Everyone has to work a restaurant job for a year" idea. If everyone did that, they'd know the average illegal immigrant is busting his ass every damn day.

If I sat here and named all the hard-working illegal immigrant dudes I met while working restaurants I could go on for several paragraphs. If I name all the lazy, crappy ones, there's one. Raul, you fucker, I saw you steal my tips, and you cannot clean a wine glass to save your nasty-ass single braid.

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:04:49pm

re: #97 Obdicut

Sure. Leaving aside that if Romney had to run on his accomplishments in office, he'd have to run as a Democrat, I'd be happy to say that nothing Obama proposed in a campaign was ever as a impractical as Romney's proposal here.

And the whole 'deport everyone' idea is so batshit insane it really, really makes me go crazy that enough people aren't saying "That's fucking insane, Mr. Romney." He just gets to say that and have it be treated like he just made some modest proposal.

It his a trifecta: It's insanely cruel, insanely unworkable, and insanely costly.

He's taking advantage of a lot of groundwork that's been done for him, whipping people into an emotional frenzy about immigration. People don't think very practically about the issue.

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:05:16pm

re: #99 Gus 802

Yeah. I'm sure Mexico would gladly take our illegal immigrants from Guatemala. Of course that's what most of these yahoos think -- that they're all from Mexico. I think they only make up 60 percent.

Moroni Deported to Sweden: Claims He's Not From There

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:05:56pm

re: #100 Obdicut

This goes back to my "Everyone has to work a restaurant job for a year" idea. If everyone did that, they'd know the average illegal immigrant is busting his ass every damn day.

If I sat here and named all the hard-working illegal immigrant dudes I met while working restaurants I could go on for several paragraphs. If I name all the lazy, crappy ones, there's one. Raul, you fucker, I saw you steal my tips, and you cannot clean a wine glass to save your nasty-ass single braid.

So, what I'm hearing you say is, we can deport Raul?

104 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:06:19pm

120,000 are from China. Good luck negotiating those return flights.

Also consider the social and economic impact on Mexico. In theory we would have to return 6,650,000 Mexican nationals.

Yeah, this would look great in the evening news. The USA looking like, well, I'm thinking Godwin here.

More figures here.

105 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:07:31pm

re: #103 SanFranciscoZionist

So, what I'm hearing you say is, we can deport Raul?

Good luck finding him. I bet his life is one long sleigh ride of kited checks and mooched-off-of-girlfriends. He's probably stolen someone's identity by now.

106 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:08:38pm

re: #105 Obdicut

I think I saw him on Bar Rescue, going by the name of 'Carlos.'

107 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:09:36pm

Raul who?

108 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:10:02pm

re: #104 Gus 802

120,000 are from China. Good luck negotiating those return flights.

Also consider the social and economic impact on Mexico. In theory we would have to return 6,650,000 Mexican nationals.

Yeah, this would look great in the evening news. The USA looking like, well, I'm thinking Godwin here.

More figures here.

I'm reminded of a remark by a wingnut Vox Day a few years ago. He argued that it is absolutely feasible to round up the illegals and ship them off. How did he know? Well, he figured that if Hitler could do it to 6 million Jews, there are no logistical problems.

109 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:10:05pm

re: #107 b_sharp

Raul who?

Raul Pon.

110 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:10:57pm

re: #108 Sergey Romanov

I'm reminded of a remark by a wingnut Vox Day a few years ago. He argued that it is absolutely feasible to round up the illegals and ship them off. How did he know? Well, he figured that if Hitler could do it to 6 million Jews, there are no logistical problems.

Damn, pretty sick.

111 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:11:04pm

re: #109 wrenchwench

Raul Pon.

I don't know why but that's just the funniest thing I've read all day.

You know, the fucker even looked a little like Ron Paul. That same "Creepy hyperintelligent baby" look.

112 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:12:24pm

I haven't been on in a bit, but I wanted to state that Obama did something on International Policy that makes me no longer support him.

113 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:12:45pm

re: #110 Gus 802

Damn, pretty sick.

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

114 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:12:54pm

re: #112 ProLifeLiberal

I haven't been on in a bit, but I wanted to state that Obama did something on International Policy that makes me no longer support him.

Must you be so vague?

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:12:59pm

re: #108 Sergey Romanov

I'm reminded of a remark by a wingnut Vox Day a few years ago. He argued that it is absolutely feasible to round up the illegals and ship them off. How did he know? Well, he figured that if Hitler could do it to 6 million Jews, there are no logistical problems.

You can also cure a headache by shooting yourself, but it's not recommended by sane people.

116 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:13:34pm

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

You can also cure a headache by shooting yourself, but it's not recommended by sane people.

I haven't tried that.

117 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:14:02pm

re: #114 wrenchwench

He is supporting Argentina on the Falkland Islands.

He is betraying the concept of Popular Sovereignty, as well as endangering our relationship with the UK.

118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:14:10pm

re: #100 Obdicut

Fucking Raul... Everyone hated him...

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:14:31pm

re: #116 b_sharp

I haven't tried that.

See, I wouldn't recommend it.

120 wilburs  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:14:54pm

re: #108 Sergey Romanov

I'm reminded of a remark by a wingnut Vox Day a few years ago. He argued that it is absolutely feasible to round up the illegals and ship them off. How did he know? Well, he figured that if Hitler could do it to 6 million Jews, there are no logistical problems.

I remember that
He was dead serious

Great moment in wingnuttery

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:15:12pm

re: #118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Fucking Raul... Everyone hated him...

I'm enjoying hating on Raul.

122 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:15:23pm

re: #116 b_sharp

I haven't tried that.

Hence the coherent typing (most of the time).

123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:16:12pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

Total asshole...

124 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:17:00pm

re: #117 ProLifeLiberal

He is supporting Argentina on the Falkland Islands.

He is betraying the concept of Popular Sovereignty, as well as endangering our relationship with the UK.

For that you will throw your support to... whom? Or are you just not supporting Obama on this one issue, but still hoping he will be reelected?

125 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:17:24pm

re: #122 wrenchwench

Hence the coherent typing (most of the time).

Fttijn dhyyy bote8jsasa,

126 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:17:53pm

re: #125 b_sharp

Fttijn dhyyy bote8jsasa,

I hope the headache is gone.

127 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:18:08pm

re: #125 b_sharp

Fttijn dhyyy bote8jsasa,

Your password?

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:18:30pm

re: #123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Total asshole...

I know! The nerve of that guy.

129 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:18:47pm

re: #127 Sergey Romanov

Your password?

Facebook username.

130 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:21:09pm

re: #117 ProLifeLiberal

I think he's wrong on that, and he (and Argentina) have little to gain by the stance, but the disagreement wouldn't cause me to vote for one of the Republican candidates.

131 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:22:13pm

re: #130 jaunte

I just won't vote unless it is close, or it looks like Obama might lose.

132 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:22:33pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

His price panel for medicare (I forget the real name) instead of a proper overhaul of that program. He's railed about health care, but not fixed its big cost driver.

Back later.

Edit to remove the word "lack". That was from a different way of making my point that I thought would be suboptimal.

133 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:23:41pm

re: #131 ProLifeLiberal

I just won't vote unless it is close, or it looks like Obama might lose.

First of all, you have to go to the polling place anyway, because the president is not the only item on the ballot. Secondly, how will you know if it's close? Will you trust exit polling from early in the day?

134 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:23:59pm

re: #131 ProLifeLiberal

I just won't vote unless it is close, or it looks like Obama might lose.

Believe me, it will be close. That much is certain.

135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:24:37pm

re: #100 Obdicut

the average illegal immigrant is busting his ass every damn day.

Two quickies...

Korean man, worked at a dry-cleaners every day for forty years without a day off... once someone asked him, "Why don't you take a vacation?" His reply, "In America? Every day a vacation."

Comedian (can't remember the name) "Rome wasn't built in a day? Because they didn't have Mexicans building it."

136 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:24:41pm

OT.

Well because my daughter had to work yesterday, today was supposed to be our Christmas supper with my daughter, her boyfriend, my grandkid, my dad and two brothers.

I got sick with no sleep last night so my 80yo dad begged off, one brother got sick and didn't sleep last night, the other brother's kid got sick Saturday and my daughter's boyfriend got sick and didn't sleep last night.

We have a 7.5Kg Butterball turkey in the oven and only 3 people to eat it.

137 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:25:27pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Believe me, it will be close. That much is certain.

According to whom?

138 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:26:03pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Well, fuck. Lesser of two evils then.

Any way to get the MSM to cover this, from an angle that will get Obama to shift position?

139 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:26:21pm

re: #108 Sergey Romanov

I'm reminded of a remark by a wingnut Vox Day a few years ago. He argued that it is absolutely feasible to round up the illegals and ship them off. How did he know? Well, he figured that if Hitler could do it to 6 million Jews, there are no logistical problems.

Would someone please remind him to pick up his feldgrau dress uniform from the cleaners?

/three updings to the first person who can explain the reference.

140 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:26:26pm

After watching 2-3 hours so far about WW1 on the Military Channel I have come to the conclusion I never knew shit about that war... I'm blown away about the complexity of the politics, ethics and twists and turns of their mindset. Some countries paid off by Gold or the highest bidder.. The Queen of Romania asking for certain lands to join the conflict.. Jews fleeing to Germany and joining the Army and receiving tons of awards for fighting for Germany...In high School there was probably 10 pages in the History books..

141 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:26:26pm

Oh my dog. Being bored today, happily, has created a food implosion. Ate leftovers at noon, just ordered pizza delivered. Maybe tomorrow will be a blessing.

142 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:27:02pm

re: #136 b_sharp

OT.

Well because my daughter had to work yesterday, today was supposed to be our Christmas supper with my daughter, her boyfriend, my grandkid, my dad and two brothers.

I got sick with no sleep last night so my 80yo dad begged off, one brother got sick and didn't sleep last night, the other brother's kid got sick Saturday and my daughter's boyfriend got sick and didn't sleep last night.

We have a 7.5Kg Butterball turkey in the oven and only 3 people to eat it.

Wow, that's 16.5 lbs. Maybe it will blow itself up. Or freeze it all for leftovers, and feed everybody when they get well, which I hope will be soon.

143 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:27:06pm

re: #137 b_sharp

According to whom?

Ask almost any pollster. All of them predict a close election.

144 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:27:09pm

re: #136 b_sharp

OT.

Well because my daughter had to work yesterday, today was supposed to be our Christmas supper with my daughter, her boyfriend, my grandkid, my dad and two brothers.

I got sick with no sleep last night so my 80yo dad begged off, one brother got sick and didn't sleep last night, the other brother's kid got sick Saturday and my daughter's boyfriend got sick and didn't sleep last night.

We have a 7.5Kg Butterball turkey in the oven and only 3 people to eat it.

Halal Turkey Tetrazzini
Halal Turkey Salad
Halal Turkey a la King
Halal Turkey Soup

145 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:27:23pm

re: #100 Obdicut

This goes back to my "Everyone has to work a restaurant job for a year" idea

huh

i was thinking of the very same idea

in that vein, i told my niece that working as a waitress for six months would teach her more about managing people than an MBA

146 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:28:05pm

re: #131 ProLifeLiberal

I just won't vote unless it is close, or it looks like Obama might lose.

All because the Administration joined an OAS consensus statement calling for peaceful negotiation of the issue? Strange.

147 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:28:21pm

Heh. The freaking Falklands and "las Malvinas son nuestras" BS that never seems to go away. And a war that was started by a military dictator by the name of Leopoldo Galtieri who was eventually sentenced to 12 years in prison. And Fernandez is still stirring the pot trying to appease the Argentine nationalists over this. The UK has ruled the Falklands since 1833. Argentina needs to get over it and stop acting like a bunch of idiots.

148 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:28:59pm

re: #139 Dark_Falcon

Would someone please remind him to pick up his feldgrau dress uniform from the cleaners?

/three updings to the first person who can explain the reference.

in a famous wwii era russian poem, the feldgrau color of nazi uniforms was referenced by calling the invaders "grey-green slugs"

149 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:32:01pm

re: #146 goddamnedfrank

I'm someone who really believes in Human Rights. Obama is right now actively helping in trying to deny a group of people one of their most basic rights, popular sovereignty.

Ironically, it's Argentina being Imperialist, with Britain being the one who the Argentinians want to exploit.

150 jaunte  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:32:14pm

re: #147 Gus 802

Galtieri was pardoned after four years, but 649 Argentinian soldiers and sailors remained dead.

151 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:32:17pm

re: #143 Dark_Falcon

Ask almost any pollster. All of them predict a close election.

The President is pulling 51.9 on Intrade.

152 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:32:20pm

re: #142 wrenchwench

Wow, that's 16.5 lbs. Maybe it will blow itself up. Or freeze it all for leftovers, and feed everybody when they get well, which I hope will be soon.

We usually send food home with my daughter, dad and brothers. My wife's b'day is Wednesday and I suspect it will be another empty house.

My daughter had the flu for a week, so I suspect we're all going to be sick for the rest of the week.

153 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:32:23pm

re: #138 ProLifeLiberal

Well, fuck. Lesser of two evils then.

Any way to get the MSM to cover this, from an angle that will get Obama to shift position?

No, I don't think so. To the State Department, the Falkland Islands are an irritant that impair our relationship with Latin America. The diplomats think the Falklands should just be handed over to Argentina. I base this on opinion and past performance, I have no hard evidence.

But I do think the "hostility to the UK" angle could be used to fling the "Kenyan Anti-Colonialist" slurs at Obama again, stupid though they are. I also think that's the angle Fox News would likely take if it were to address the issue.

154 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:33:54pm

re: #148 engineer dog

in a famous wwii era russian poem, the feldgrau color of nazi uniforms was referenced by calling the invaders "grey-green slugs"

You win. This post and your next two will be updinged.

155 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:34:03pm

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

No, I don't think so. To the State Department, the Falkland Islands are an irritant that impair our relationship with Latin America. The diplomats think the Falklands should just be handed over to Argentina. I base this on opinion and past performance, I have no hard evidence.

But I do think the "hostility to the UK" angle could be used to fling the "Kenyan Anti-Colonialist" slurs at Obama again, stupid though they are. I also think that's the angle Fox News would likely take if it were to address the issue.

There is also a bit of Monroe Doctrine nostalgia at play.

156 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:34:36pm

re: #146 goddamnedfrank

All because the Administration joined an OAS consensus statement calling for peaceful negotiation of the issue? Strange.

Operating on not enough information can be an argument killer.

157 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:35:03pm

re: #150 jaunte

Galtieri was pardoned after four years, but 649 Argentinian soldiers and sailors remained dead.

Yeah. By the slippery snake Menem.

158 freetoken  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:35:07pm

re: #140 HoosierHoops

... In high School there was probably 10 pages in the History books..

And half of those pages were probably about Wilson and the League of Nations.

WWI was complex - I remember watching a TV series produced on it a few years ago (good series, but I forget the name of it), not quite as seminal a work as The World at War (which is probably one of the best productions in the 70 years of television) but pretty good.

The unravelling of European colonialism had lots of side effects. One thing that strikes me is how long lasting some of these issues are - such as the problems in the Balkans.

159 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:35:20pm

re: #155 Decatur Deb

Which is dumb as all fuck.

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

Damn, this really sucks. Latin America is being beyond hypocritical here.

160 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:36:01pm

re: #152 b_sharp

We usually send food home with my daughter, dad and brothers. My wife's b'day is Wednesday and I suspect it will be another empty house.

My daughter had the flu for a week, so I suspect we're all going to be sick for the rest of the week.

{ . . b_sharp . . } Not too close....

161 Interesting Times  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:36:22pm

re: #151 Decatur Deb

The President is pulling 51.9 on Intrade.

Gallup: Obama job approval surges

The trend lines are good news for President Obama's team, with his Gallup numbers slowly climbing this month. It's too soon to draw sweeping conclusions, but it seems that the standoff with House Republicans over the payroll tax cut did no damage at all to the president — and a further climb in the polls could mean that the White House won a significant public relations victory during the payroll tax cut debate.

echo $NelsonHaHa!

162 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:37:03pm

re: #154 Dark_Falcon

You win. This post and your next two will be updinged.

I'm going to downding the ones you upding, just 'cause 'dog is being a brown-nose.

163 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:38:25pm

re: #159 ProLifeLiberal

Which is dumb as all fuck.

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

Damn, this really sucks. Latin America is being beyond hypocritical here.

Has any US president ever abrogated the Monroe Doctrine?

164 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:39:40pm

re: #154 Dark_Falcon

:-)

here's the poem:

One can bear anything – the plague, hunger, misery, and death.
But one cannot bear the German.
We cannot bear these fish-eyed oafs, snorting contemptuously at everything Russian.

We cannot live as long as these grey-green slugs are alive.
Today there are no books.
Today there are no stars in the sky.
Today there is only one thought –

Kill the Germans.
Kill them all and dig them into the earth.

Then we can go to sleep.
Then we can think again of life, and books, and girls, and happiness.

165 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:40:05pm

re: #158 freetoken

And half of those pages were probably about Wilson and the League of Nations.

WWI was complex - I remember watching a TV series produced on it a few years ago (good series, but I forget the name of it), not quite as seminal a work as The World at War (which is probably one of the best productions in the 70 years of television) but pretty good.

The unravelling of European colonialism had lots of side effects. One thing that strikes me is how long lasting some of these issues are - such as the problems in the Balkans.

I know! They spent over an hour talking about the role of Turkey in the war...And the role of the Ottoman Empire crumbling at the same time and Britain taking advantage of it...Dang..I should record the rest cause I only thought I'd watch 5 minutes..

166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:41:17pm

re: #140 HoosierHoops

Embarrassing to admit. But, it only recently occurred to me that WWII had only ended 17 years before I was born. I think it was pretty fresh on the Historian's minds. Five minutes on WWI. Three months on WWII. Three months on Civil War (being from VA and all).

167 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:41:39pm

re: #163 Decatur Deb

Considering the way some of the Latin American countries now act, we REALLY should. Now they are the ones interfering in other's sovereignty.

168 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:43:19pm

re: #157 Gus 802

Yeah. By the slippery snake Menem.

Gus, you do realize that denouncing the junta in Argentina has "proven" you to be a "Peronist Progressive", right? Or at least that's how Dorkus will frame it. I know that doesn't bother you, but shall I check over there in a day or so for some unintentional hilarity?

169 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:44:33pm

i heard these russian poems recited in 'World At War'

Farewell then my son –
Farewell then my conscience.
Farewell my youth, my solace, my one and only.

Let this farewell be the end of a story of solitude,
Past which now is more learned.
In which you remained buried –
Forever from light, from air: with your death pains untold.

Untold and unsoothed –
Never to be resurrected.
Forever and ever an 18 year old.

Farewell then –
No trains ever come from those regions,
Unscheduled and scheduled.
No aeroplanes fly there.

Farewell then my son,
For no miracles happen, as in this world
Dreams do not come true.

Farewell –
I will dream of you still as a baby –
Treading the earth with little strong toes.
The earth where so many already lie buried –

As this song to my son then has come to its close.

---***---


Wait for me and I’ll return,
Only wait very hard.

Wait as you’re filled with sorrow as you watch the yellow rain.
Wait as the wind sweeps the snowdrift.
Wait in the sweltering heat.
Wait when others have stopped waiting,
Forgetting their yesteryears.

Wait even when from afar no letters come to you.
Wait even when others are tired of waiting.
Wait even when my mother and son think I am no more,
And when friends sit around the fire drinking to my memory.
Wait, and do not hurry to drink to my memory too.

Wait – for I’ll return.

Defying every death,
And let those who do not wait say that I was lucky.

They will never understand that in the midst of death,
You, with your waiting, saved me.
Only you and I will know how I survived –
Because you waited as no one else would.

170 freetoken  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:44:34pm

re: #165 HoosierHoops

And we are still dealing with the fallout from the collapses of the Ottoman and the British empires.

171 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:46:07pm

re: #170 freetoken

Don't need reminders of that (Hi Pakistan and Saudi Arabia).

172 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:46:58pm

re: #170 freetoken

And we are still dealing with the fallout from the collapses of the Ottoman and the British empires.

I think we're dealing with the Treaty of Tordesillas. Keep up.

173 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:47:23pm

re: #162 b_sharp

I'm going to downding the ones you upding, just 'cause 'dog is being a brown-nose.

We need a zero value ding. A neutrino ding that is its own anti-ding and weakly interacts with any comment, signifying "Yes, I read this and have no opinion on it whatsoever."

174 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:47:46pm

re: #159 ProLifeLiberal

Which is dumb as all fuck.

re: #153 Dark_Falcon

Damn, this really sucks. Latin America is being beyond hypocritical here.

They are indeed, but they won't change course. Doing the right thing would mean standing with the outsider nation with an imperialist history (the UK) against one of their own (Argentina), and that is seen as an intolerable breech of solidarity.

175 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:47:53pm

re: #168 Dark_Falcon

Gus, you do realize that denouncing the junta in Argentina has "proven" you to be a "Peronist Progressive", right? Or at least that's how Dorkus will frame it. I know that doesn't bother you, but shall I check over there in a day or so for some unintentional hilarity?

Ha! Too late. I already slammed Fernandez over this. Plus I'm effectively siding with Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan on this issue. I'm pulling a Hitchens here. ;)

176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:49:02pm

re: #173 goddamnedfrank

We need a zero value ding. A neutrino ding that is its own anti-ding and weakly interacts with any comment, signifying "Yes, I read this and have no opinion on it whatsoever."

There is a "neutrino" ding. No action at all is necessary.

177 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:49:38pm

re: #173 goddamnedfrank

We need a zero value ding. A neutrino ding that is its own anti-ding and weakly interacts with any comment, signifying "Yes, I read this and have no opinion on it whatsoever."

A "meh" button?

178 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:49:42pm

re: #173 goddamnedfrank

We need a zero value ding. A neutrino ding that is its own anti-ding and weakly interacts with any comment, signifying "Yes, I read this and have no opinion on it whatsoever."

A ding that says "meh". Might look like this: |

179 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:49:50pm

re: #174 Dark_Falcon

A good thing I think that sort of thinking is beyond bullshit.

180 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:49:57pm

re: #173 goddamnedfrank

We need a zero value ding. A neutrino ding that is its own anti-ding and weakly interacts with any comment, signifying "Yes, I read this and have no opinion on it whatsoever."

a 'meh' ding?

181 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:50:02pm

re: #176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There is a neurtino ding. No action at all is necessary.

Where is the fun in that?

182 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:50:30pm

re: #176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There is a neurtino ding. No action at all is necessary.

Indistinguishable from a toilet break.

183 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:50:35pm

re: #181 b_sharp

Where is the fun in that?

Ooh, that downding was fun....

184 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:50:43pm

re: #162 b_sharp

I'm going to downding the ones you upding, just 'cause 'dog is being a brown-nose.

feh!

185 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:51:38pm

re: #178 wrenchwench

A ding that says "meh". Might look like this: |

MMTA.

186 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:52:04pm

re: #168 Dark_Falcon

Dorkus need to see a professional doctor.. I don't know whether to laugh my ass off or worry he is one post away from a straight jacket..
For years He has stalked every post and every thread here posting about it.
He should really get over it...No lizard ever posts about his views cause I'm pretty sure nobody gives a shit but every day he posts about LGF...

187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:52:23pm

re: #182 Decatur Deb

Indistinguishable from a toilet break.

*FLUSH*

Huh?

188 freetoken  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:53:33pm

re: #172 Decatur Deb

I think we're dealing with the Treaty of Tordesillas. Keep up.

If only someone would have stopped Julius at the river...

189 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:55:32pm

re: #175 Gus 802

Ha! Too late. I already slammed Fernandez over this. Plus I'm effectively siding with Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan on this issue. I'm pulling a Hitchens here. ;)

They won't get that far. It'll just be

"Gus slammed the ANTI-COMMUNIST generals!!1 He did that because he still PINES FOR THE FASCIST PROGRESSIVE JUAN PERON!!!11".

They're stuck on stupid.

190 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:57:42pm

Who was the Italian who first circumnavigated the the world?

191 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:58:30pm

re: #190 Decatur Deb

Who was the Italian who first circumnavigated the the world?

Papa John.

192 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:58:30pm

re: #190 Decatur Deb

Who was the Italian who first circumnavigated the the world?

Snookie!

193 abolitionist  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:58:51pm

re: #188 freetoken

If only someone would have stopped Julius at the river...

Cleopatra did that. But I think you meant the Rubicon.

194 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 2:58:53pm

re: #189 Dark_Falcon

They won't get that far. It'll just be

They're stuck on stupid.

I shall die of a broken heart!

//

195 allegro  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:00:55pm

re: #174 Dark_Falcon

Since you're back, I'll ask again about an earlier comment of yours:

The Democrats have made some very serious mistakes of their own in the last couple decades (such as job killing regulation and tax-spend-elect deals to public sector workers) and giving them unchecked reign would likely send America down the path to fiscal ruin.

What job killing regulations?
What are "tax-spend-elect deals to public sector workers"? (I have no idea what this means.)
What Democratic policy proposals would "send America down the path to fiscal ruin"?

196 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:01:08pm

Given what Weigel has posted. Ron Paul wasn't denying that he wrote some of the stuff in 1996.

In the interview, he did not deny he made the statement about the swiftness of black men.

"If you try to catch someone that has stolen a purse from you, there is no chance to catch them," Dr. Paul said.

He also said the comment about black men in the nation's capital was made while writing about a 1992 study produced by the National Center on Incarceration and Alternatives, a criminal justice think tank based in Virginia.

Citing statistics from the study, Dr. Paul then concluded in his column: Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."

"These aren't my figures," Dr. Paul said Tuesday. "That is the assumption you can gather from" the report. which is from

At this point I want to apologize to Charles and say point blank, I was wrong. Paul has lied on the matter, and has been caught in the lie. His credibility is in shreds, and it's apparent to me that Ron Paul aided and abetted the efforts to appeal to the bigoted and racists. Ron Paul isn't fit to be President. If you can't admit mistakes, then perhaps Ron Paul doesn't think what he wrote was wrong or a mistake.

His ignorance/bigotry is painful to see, but illuminating.

197 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:02:59pm

Sarah Palin was really smart to opt out of this GOP train wreck.

198 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:03:53pm

re: #197 Ojoe

Sarah Palin was really smart to opt out of this GOP train wreck.

I'd have to call it dumb luck. And I'll bet she wants in.

199 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:03:54pm

re: #197 Ojoe

Sarah Palin was really smart to opt out of this GOP train wreck.

Words you normally don't expect to see so close together. :)

200 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:04:23pm

re: #197 Ojoe

Sarah Palin was really smart to opt out of this GOP train wreck.

Good Alaskan hunting skills--could smell dead meat a mile away.

201 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:04:52pm

Cheers to another New Years..
we get another chance to get it right

202 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:04:59pm

re: #199 bloodstar

Well it's kind of a black swan.

203 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:05:04pm

re: #197 Ojoe

Merry Christmas, Ojoe!

204 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:05:17pm

re: #196 bloodstar

In doing that, you just proved yourself reasonable and pretty damn cool.

205 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:05:24pm

re: #201 HoosierHoops

Cheers to another New Years..
we get another chance to get it right

Aaaand... we won't.

206 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:06:17pm

re: #203 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And Happy St. Stephen's day to you !

207 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:06:20pm

re: #195 allegro

Since you're back, I'll ask again about an earlier comment of yours:

What are "tax-spend-elect deals to public sector workers"? (I have no idea what this means.)

I can only reply to this, then I must go: It refers to the electoral relationship between Demcorats and many public sector workers, who get inflated salaries and extravagant pensions in return for their support of the Democrats. For examples on pensions, see the excellent recent coverage of the issue by the Chicago Tribune.

208 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:06:27pm

re: #196 bloodstar

FLIP-FLOPPER!
/

209 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:07:13pm

re: #202 Ojoe

Well it's kind of a black swan.

No way, she's far less intelligent than Mila Kunis!

BBL

210 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:08:51pm

re: #206 Ojoe

Where the snow lay round about... deep and crisp and even.

211 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:09:01pm

BBL. I need some sleep.

212 allegro  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:10:26pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

I can only reply to this, then I must go: It refers to the electoral relationship between Demcorats and many public sector workers, who get inflated salaries and extravagant pensions in return for their support of the Democrats. For examples on pensions, see the excellent recent coverage of the issue by the Chicago Tribune.

Wow. That's quite an accusation to make without support. Since there is no link, may I presume that the Chicago Tribune article is about local issues?

213 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:11:44pm

And now, back to the drafting board for 2 hours.

But here's the Towercam in the meanwhile.

214 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:12:47pm

re: #213 Ojoe

And now, back to the drafting board for 2 hours.

But here's the Towercam in the meanwhile.

Sounds like you have architecture work again?

215 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:13:03pm

re: #213 Ojoe

And now, back to the drafting board for 2 hours.

But here's the Towercam in the meanwhile.

There's an app for that.

//

216 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:13:40pm

re: #214 Decatur Deb

Tiny jobs, but yes. Now I have to draw...

217 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:14:22pm

re: #216 Ojoe

Tiny jobs, but yes. Now I have to draw...

Good sign--congrats then.

218 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:15:13pm

Falklands: Reagan letter to Thatcher (Galtieri intends to use force) [NSC draft]

Dear Margaret:

I have just talked at length with General Galtieri about the situation in the Falklands. I conveyed to him my personal concern about the possibility of an Argentinian invasion. I told him that initiating military operations against the Falklands Islands would seriously compromise relations between the US and Argentina, and I urged him to refrain from offensive action. I offered our good offices and my readiness to send a personal representative to assist in resolving the issue between Argentina and the UK.

The General heard my message, but gave me no commitment that he would comply with it. Indeed, he spoke in terms of ultimatums and left me with the clear impression that he has embarked on a course of armed conflict. We will continue to cooperate with your government in the effort to resolve the dispute, both in attempting to avert hostilities and to stop them if they should break out. While we have a policy of neutrality on the sovereignty issue, we will not be neutral on the issue involving Argentine use of military force.

Warmest wishes,
Ron

219 wilburs  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:15:48pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

I can only reply to this, then I must go: It refers to the electoral relationship between Demcorats and many public sector workers, who get inflated salaries and extravagant pensions in return for their support of the Democrats. For examples on pensions, see the excellent recent coverage of the issue by the Chicago Tribune.

Except that their salaries are not inflated, except at the very bottom of the pay scale, they are for the most part, lower then salaries in the public sphere.
The pensions (along with a greater degree of job security) are a way of making these jobs more competitive.

This was certainly the choice presented to people my age after graduating. take a public job for less money, but with a pension and job security. or take a higher paying job with more potential "upside" in the private sphere.

221 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:19:07pm

As you can see it was kind of wishy washy back then too.

222 andres  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:20:28pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

If someone has more experience years, and better education, do they deserve better pay?

Simple question.

223 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:20:55pm

Lots of cool videos at that last link.

224 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:26:05pm
226 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:34:43pm

A woman who was facing federal charges of sending a fake Weapons of Mass Destruction to a New York politician was killed by police officer after attacking him at her apartment in Marietta, Georgia.
In April, Jameela Barnette, 53, mailed a vial of perfume, a hateful letter and a stuffed monkey with a star of David on it to New York state Sen Greg Ball, because she believed he was biased against her Islamic faith.
She also sent a bloody pig's foot and an anti-Semitic letter to Rep Peter King because he was hosting Congressional hearings about 'radicalization' in the American Muslim community.

On Saturday, police were called to Barnette's apartment by a panic alarm. When an officer arrived, police say, Barnette attacked him with a knife and a handgun.
The officer defended himself and shot Barnette, killing her.

228 allegro  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:37:30pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

I can only reply to this, then I must go: It refers to the electoral relationship between Demcorats and many public sector workers, who get inflated salaries and extravagant pensions in return for their support of the Democrats. For examples on pensions, see the excellent recent coverage of the issue by the Chicago Tribune.

Hmm, there is a pension scandal that this article centers on U. of I. private people apparently receiving public pensions. I see no reference to anything that remotely supports your statements about the "many public sector workers" getting inflated salaries and extravagant pensions in exchange for Dem votes.

229 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:42:00pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

Do you have any actual data to support the idea public servant's salaries and benefits are raised by Democrats more often than Republicans, or is this just more a "I believe this because I've seen anecdotal examples of it in Chicago so I'll extrapolate it to the whole country" situation?

230 Mattand  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:44:06pm

re: #229 Obdicut

And you know those crazy Dems: always starting financially devastating wars in Iraq.

Wait, what?

231 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:49:10pm

re: #219 wilburs

Except that their salaries are not inflated, except at the very bottom of the pay scale, they are for the most part, lower then salaries in the public sphere.
The pensions (along with a greater degree of job security) are a way of making these jobs more competitive.

This was certainly the choice presented to people my age after graduating. take a public job for less money, but with a pension and job security. or take a higher paying job with more potential "upside" in the private sphere.

This this this. Now they are the scapegoats of the failed Bain Capital, wall Street greed.

And mis-informed Americans buy it. Scapegoating, brought to you entirely by fox and Limbaugh, the rich. shame

232 wrenchwench  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:49:29pm

re: #227 Killgore Trout

Woman accused of sending fake WMDs to politician shot dead after attacking police officer

Suicide by cop, delivered to your home for your convenience.

233 Stanghazi  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:50:43pm

re: #232 wrenchwench

Suicide by cop, delivered to your home for your convenience.

Cheered

234 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:50:55pm

re: #230 mattand

It's just one of those things that people assert that I've never seen the slightest shred of evidence for. I doubt I ever will, too. Seems meme-y, more than realistic. Actually compiling that data would be challenge, much easier just to state it and then admit to not having the data. That is the main political position of the GOP these days.

Kasich raised a bunch of the Governor's teams salaries, and the Ohio Senate (GOP controlled) gave a bunch of raises to the Republican Senate staffers-- none to the Democratic staffers, in just a blatant dick move.

Obviously I should extrapolate from that that that's how the GOP is everywhere.

235 Kragar  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:54:47pm

Done with my holiday driving, the 2 hour drive back home took 4 1/2 today.

236 allegro  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:55:20pm

re: #234 Obdicut

It's just one of those things that people assert that I've never seen the slightest shred of evidence for. I doubt I ever will, too. Seems meme-y, more than realistic. Actually compiling that data would be challenge, much easier just to state it and then admit to not having the data. That is the main political position of the GOP these days.

Kasich raised a bunch of the Governor's teams salaries, and the Ohio Senate (GOP controlled) gave a bunch of raises to the Republican Senate staffers-- none to the Democratic staffers, in just a blatant dick move.

Obviously I should extrapolate from that that that's how the GOP is everywhere.

Just like the Dem's job killing regulations and fiscal policies that would send the country into ruin. All memes. No supporting evidence whatsoever.

237 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:55:39pm

re: #235 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Done with my holiday driving, the 2 hour drive back home took 4 1/2 today.

We're driving to NY tomorrow. Rain predicted along the I-80. Gah.

238 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:56:08pm

Uh oh. Fender and Gibson both signed a letter supporting SOPA. Better get rid of your guitars!

[Link: www.theglobalipcenter.com...]

239 Kragar  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 3:57:56pm

re: #237 Alouette

We're driving to NY tomorrow. Rain predicted along the I-80. Gah.

We'd get along fine for a few miles, then we'd end up around a mall and traffic would be jammed up for miles with people trying to get to the sales, repeat ad nauseum from L.A. to San Diego.

241 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:01:43pm

re: #234 Obdicut

Obviously I should extrapolate from that that that's how the GOP is everywhere.

I always knew you were an extrapolator.

242 Kragar  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:07:18pm

Hmmm

Bob Vander Plaats’ Pay-For-Play Scandal: Charged A Million Bucks For Endorsement, Asked Candidates To Drop Out

Bob Vander Plaats’ endorsement of Rick Santorum has produced a backlash among conservatives in Iowa, some of whom are accusing the FAMiLY LEADER president of engaging in “pay for play” schemes and selling his coveted support to the highest bidder. Earlier this week, Santorum admitted that Vander Plaats approached the campaign with an indirect solicitation of money to help promote his support, but now other sources familiar with the talks between Vander Plaats and GOP candidates are characterizing the tactics as “corrupt.”

“Clearly the endorsement was for sale — without a doubt,” one source told ABC News’ Shushannah Walshe and Michael Falcone, stressing that Vander Plaats had tried to receive money for his support in past election cycles:

Though Santorum did not specify the dollar amount he and Vander Plaats discussed, multiple sources said he was soliciting as much as $1 million from Santorum and other candidates.

In an interview with the Des Moines Register this week, Vander Plaats said that it was his “ethical responsibility” to essentially put some money where his mouth is. “You can’t say, ‘We endorsed you. Now see you later,’” Vander Plaats told the Iowa newspaper. “That’s not going to do a lot in the long run.” But one long-time Iowa conservative activist told ABC News, “There is no way he could buy enough ad space in Iowa for a million dollars — couldn’t buy that much advertising in a week and a half in Iowa.”

ABC News has learned that Vander Plaats tried to solicit money for his endorsement during the last presidential cycle too. A former staffer for Mitt Romney’s 2008 presidential bid who is currently unaffiliated with a campaign said Vander Plaats came to them seeking money for his backing if he supported the former Massachusetts governor. “He wanted to be paid,” the former staffer said. “He was clearly looking for a paycheck. There was a conversation about him getting a title, but being a paid consultant was much more important.”

243 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:27:09pm

re: #242 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I rec'd that one, pretty interesting.

Family Values = $$$

244 wilburs  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:30:18pm

In an interview with the Des Moines Register this week, Vander Plaats said that it was his “ethical responsibility” to essentially put some money where his mouth is.

ethics made him do it!

246 allegro  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:31:36pm

re: #244 wilburs

In an interview with the Des Moines Register this week, Vander Plaats said that it was his “ethical responsibility” to essentially put some money where his mouth is.

ethics made him do it!

Just like patriotism made Newt go for the strange. LOL They do come up with interesting "the dog ate my homework" excuses, don't they?

247 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:32:36pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

I can only reply to this, then I must go: It refers to the electoral relationship between Demcorats and many public sector workers, who get inflated salaries and extravagant pensions in return for their support of the Democrats.

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read come out of your keyboard. The other problem is, you keep repeating it, as if it's true.

248 Mattand  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:34:47pm

re: #245 BigPapa

If God doesn't believe in atheists they don't exist

Sadly, the person who wrote that message truly believes it (assuming our good friend Photo Shop had nothing to do with it.)

249 Kragar  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:35:49pm

re: #247 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read come out of your keyboard. The other problem is, you keep repeating it, as if it's true.

As opposed to the special electoral relationship between the GOP and the corporations they favor for government projects and contracts and the golden parachutes they enable for their CEO buddies.

250 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:37:00pm

re: #131 ProLifeLiberal

I just won't vote unless it is close, or it looks like Obama might lose.

You would voluntarily forfeit your entire franchise over a single issue like that? You must be from a community that has never had their vote suppressed or denied.

251 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:38:17pm

re: #249 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

As opposed to the special electoral relationship between the GOP and the corporations they favor for government projects and contracts and the golden parachutes they enable for their CEO buddies.

Pfft!

War profiteering never happens! Either! So you shut up!!!

252 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:39:59pm

re: #238 Gus 802

Uh oh. Fender and Gibson both signed a letter supporting SOPA. Better get rid of your guitars!

[Link: www.theglobalipcenter.com...]

...before Obama comes for your Les Pauls, oh wait...

253 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:40:07pm

re: #245 BigPapa

If God doesn't believe in atheists they don't exist

Logic: They're not doing it right.

254 Kragar  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:40:47pm

re: #251 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Obviously while fighting terrorist guerrillas without an air force, we need to invest billions in back up engines for air superiority stealth fighters which don't run properly in the first place.

255 Mattand  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:40:51pm

re: #234 Obdicut

re: #247 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I got sidetracked, but there's a chart floating around somewhere that demonstrates how the deficit has gone through the roof under GOP presidents since 1980. Need to sharpen my Google fu.

I actually agree with Dark Falcon's assessment that one party rule blows; the GOP had control of the Executive and Legislative branches and they wrecked the joint. Unfortunately, his comment at #53 had a whiff of the "they all do it" bouquet I've been railing at lately.

256 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:41:37pm

re: #248 mattand

Sadly, the person who wrote that message truly believes it (assuming our good friend Photo Shop had nothing to do with it.)

I think they believe it is an example of the logic used by atheists. It just tells me they don't really understand logic.

257 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:43:04pm
258 Mattand  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:43:37pm

re: #252 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

...before Obama comes for your Les Pauls, oh wait...

When Les Pauls are outlawed, only Outlaws will have Les Pauls...

259 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:45:03pm

We just finished eating some of our ButterBall turkey. Damn, it was good, but I'm a bit worried about the shariah potential supposedly inherent in the brand of turkey.

Anyone know how long it takes before the shariah takes hold, and will it take longer for me because I'm one of those gnu atheists?

260 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:45:48pm

re: #258 mattand

When Les Pauls are outlawed, only Outlaws will have Les Pauls...

[Video]

You can pry my Les Paul out of my cold dead hands.

261 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:47:13pm

re: #78 Obdicut

It's kind of understandable that in the US, race is more charged and toxic, given the history of slavery. But it still is amazingly intellectually inconsistent, you're right.

And illegal immigration is a racial issue too, but it can be cast as though it's not so those with extremist views on it often fly under the racistdar.

Maybe with white racistdar, but generally, not ours.

This is where a stupid con dupe like Herman Cain was probably the most symbolically useful cypher for them, since he was dumb enough to articulate those kinds of views, without even thinking, first. Too bad he only ended up showing the world exactly the high levels of incompetence that pass for Most Authentic Black, Evvrrrr.

What the HC cain and their idiot supporters forgot was something the rest of us non-17 never have: one of the original white conservative anti-Muslim hysterias was against "radicals" during the Civil Rights era. Thanks for the reminder, Herb!

/Schadenfreude

262 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:47:29pm

re: #259 b_sharp

We just finished eating some of our ButterBall turkey. Damn, it was good, but I'm a bit worried about the shariah potential supposedly inherent in the brand of turkey.

Anyone know how long it takes before the shariah takes hold, and will it take longer for me because I'm one of those gnu atheists?

Just make sure you don't fall asleep pointing at Mecca. If you do BAM!

263 Kragar  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:47:36pm

re: #260 b_sharp

You can pry my Les Paul out of my cold dead hands.

Do you walk the streets with a loaded six string on your back?

264 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:49:40pm

re: #259 b_sharp

We just finished eating some of our ButterBall turkey. Damn, it was good, but I'm a bit worried about the shariah potential supposedly inherent in the brand of turkey.

Anyone know how long it takes before the shariah takes hold, and will it take longer for me because I'm one of those gnu atheists?

Ask your wives.

265 ProGunLiberal  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:49:59pm

There is all sorts of yelling between parents right now OVER COOKING DINNER!

I can't take this anymore! I want a real family.

266 Kronocide  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:50:25pm

Jingoist Bumper Sticker Award goes to

267 Ojoe  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:50:34pm
268 Gus  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 4:51:39pm

re: #252 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

...before Obama comes for your Les Pauls, oh wait...

Boycott Gibson Guitars buy Fender!

No. Wait!

269 engineer cat  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 5:00:25pm

re: #245 BigPapa

If God doesn't believe in atheists they don't exist

After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus."

270 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 5:04:30pm

re: #264 Decatur Deb

Ask your wives.

You mean if the shariah takes hold I can have more than one wife?

I think that would make it a real short trip to my death bed.

271 b_sharp  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 5:06:22pm

re: #268 Gus 802

Boycott Gibson Guitars buy Fender!

No. Wait!

There's still Peavey, Washburn, PRS, Jackson, ...

272 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 6:52:08pm

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

Moroni Deported to Sweden: Claims He's Not From There

What did you say, you farging icehole?

///

273 prairiefire  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 7:00:48pm

re: #265 ProLifeLiberal

There is all sorts of yelling between parents right now OVER COOKING DINNER!

I can't take this anymore! I want a real family.

That sounds like a real family.

274 TedStriker  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 7:10:05pm

re: #158 freetoken

And half of those pages were probably about Wilson and the League of Nations.

WWI was complex - I remember watching a TV series produced on it a few years ago (good series, but I forget the name of it), not quite as seminal a work as The World at War (which is probably one of the best productions in the 70 years of television) but pretty good.

The unravelling of European colonialism had lots of side effects. One thing that strikes me is how long lasting some of these issues are - such as the problems in the Balkans.

The First World War
It plays on the Military Channel quite often.

275 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 26, 2011 7:37:17pm

re: #261 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Maybe with white racistdar, but generally, not ours.

well, obviously. It's the mass media. It's not exactly a diversity playground.

276 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 4:37:22am

IIRC, there was only one correction of fact to the story, and that was to the restaurant. Bill White got the name wrong when he outed Marcus Epstein's Taft Club meetings - the restaurant was later confirmed to be the Sala Thai restaurant.
[Link: www.salathaidc.com...]

Since those days the restaurant has switched to tasteful jazz instead. :)

277 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 7:21:14am

re: #238 Gus 802

Uh oh. Fender and Gibson both signed a letter supporting SOPA. Better get rid of your guitars!

[Link: www.theglobalipcenter.com...]

I've got Dean and Alvarez, so I'm good (I think). :-)

278 Eventual Carrion  Tue, Dec 27, 2011 7:24:44am

re: #245 BigPapa

If God doesn't believe in atheists they don't exist

That's cool. I don't believe in god so it doesn't exist.

279 strikefo  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:14:33pm

I'm not a fan of Ron Paul but this post is really unfair. This is simply guilt by association. I've been to a political event where a politician was simply walking around the room chatting with everyone and every yahoo wants to snap a picture with him.

Could it be possible that this is the same scenario? They are getting pulled in a million different directions by different people to take a picture. I don't think they are able to properly "vett" all their fans, even if they are racist kooks.

280 wrenchwench  Wed, Dec 28, 2011 1:22:45pm

re: #279 strikefo

I'm not a fan of Ron Paul but this post is really unfair. This is simply guilt by association. I've been to a political event where a politician was simply walking around the room chatting with everyone and every yahoo wants to snap a picture with him.

Could it be possible that this is the same scenario? They are getting pulled in a million different directions by different people to take a picture. I don't think they are able to properly "vett" all their fans, even if they are racist kooks.

Did you read the next post too? Did you click on the "Ron Paul" tag and read some of the other posts? Did you google "Ron Paul, racist" to see what comes up? If not, you may be a Ron Paul fan.


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