Glenn Beck: “America Is Down on the Ground… She’s Gurgling… Aughhhh”

Jingoism on LSD
Wingnuts • Views: 29,335

I love the way the camera dollies crazily around while Glenn Beck goes totally off the deep end in this bizarre segment from his show, in which he uses an American flag as an imaginary bandage to press on Lady Liberty’s wounds as she gurgles and dies.

And then after this freakish little psychodrama, Beck looks pleadingly into the camera and says, “I’m telling you, get your kids out of these schools. They’re indoctrination camps.”

OK, Glenn, you can drop the act. It’s so over the top, nobody’s buying it. Glenn? It is an act, right?

(h/t: Right Wing Watch.)

UPDATE at 3/6/13 1:34:21 pm

And today on his radio show, Beck revealed that he and his followers are under spiritual and physical attack from the forces of darkness, and this is a sign that America is headed for civil war. Yikes.

Jump to bottom

398 comments
1 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:29:40pm

The biggest drama queen out there. What’s amusing is he’s constantly mocking people like women’s rights activists, gay rights activists, etc who are trying to bring to the discussion real issues of real importance but Glenn mocks them anyhow because everything has to be about him. And who can remember him crying during the Mean Joe Greene coke commercial about how we’ve lost our way and someone pointing out that ad was done in the Carter years.

2 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:29:57pm

And from today’s show;

Glenn Beck Is Under Attack From the Forces of Darkness

3 Ghost of Tom Joad  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:31:08pm

I know many don’t care for Bill Maher, but he did say it best about Beck;

“This man is close to playing with his own poop.”

4 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:31:37pm

I thought it was the part of the movie where they have to decide which wire to cut first…and then KABOOOM!!!

5 Sionainn  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:33:12pm

Why is Glenn Beck disrespecting the American flag?

6 makeitstop  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:33:19pm

Once again, I’ll hold my tongue regarding my feelings about Beck to prevent myself from being banned.

7 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:33:30pm

re: #2 Kragar (Antichrist )

And from today’s show;

Glenn Beck Is Under Attack From the Forces of Darkness

That’s why you have to shop smart. Shop S Mart. Best place to arm up for fighting the Army of Darkness. /Ash

8 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:34:36pm

re: #7 lawhawk

That’s why you have to shop smart. Shop S Mart. Best place to arm up for fighting the Army of Darkness. /Ash

“The Darkness is spreading! CHARLIE MURPHY!” *SLAP*

9 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:34:42pm

re: #3 Ghost of Tom Joad

I know many don’t care for Bill Maher, but he did say it best about Beck;

“This man is close to playing with his own poop.”

Okay, here’s my illustration of how that would actually go.
Beck is going on his usual America is doomed rant and Obama is trying to ruin us. “See the poop is America and everything we love about it.” And here’s Obama trying to ruin the American you love!” (Beck jumps on the shit with a shoe).

10 mikec6666  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:36:40pm

I hope he gets an Emmy for best daytime drama.

11 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:37:54pm

Yunno, guys like Rush Roger Ailes are just successful businessmen, they know what they need to broadcast in order to tie down their target audience to sell their product, which is not news, but advertising time.

I think Glenn has gone so far off the deep end that he believes he is really there to spread a message.

12 A Mom Anon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:38:52pm

re: #11 Sol Berdinowitz

I think someone needs to be checking under his house for bodies.

13 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:38:56pm

I haven’t seen anything that moving since the “Life is like a mop” speech:

Youtube Video
14 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:39:26pm

re: #10 mikec6666

I hope he gets an Emmy enema for best daytime drama.

ftfy

15 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:39:44pm

I have to admit that I get a huge source of amusement from the fact that Glenn Beck thinks Alex Jones is too hysterical and engages into many conspiracy theories. I mean Jones is but that’s the ultimate pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw it. I find Beck to be a pathetic clown more than anything. He doesn’t actually anger me like Limbaugh or Hannity do.

16 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:39:58pm

I don’t have to actually watch those videos do I?

17 Eclectic Cyborg  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:39:59pm

Boy, Mississippi is on a roll this week. First, they passed an anti-abortion bill that would require a transvaginal ultrasound jokingly called the Women’s Health Defense Act. (I wrote about this bill earlier)

In addition to that, they are also set to pass a measure SPECIFICALLY intended to promote prayer in public schools:

The House has sent a bill to Gov. Phil Bryant that could legalize student prayer before school audiences.

Senate Bill 2633 is also meant to guarantee religious freedom in Mississippi public schools, ensuring students can talk about spiritual beliefs and aren’t deprived of their rights.

The House voted 108-6 for final passage of the bill Wednesday.

The measure would guarantee student rights to talk about faith in classwork and allow them to organize religious clubs. But it also would create a path to allow students to pray at school events and during morning announcements.

It suggests naming such events as “limited public forums,” choosing students to speak at each. The bill says schools can’t punish students who pray, and sponsors say the aim is to promote such prayer.

18 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:41:24pm

I can’t recommend it enough —direct link. I also Paged it.

Really good perspective. It also shows how people still are in the Cold War mindset. It’s like a whole segment (white people) are stuck in 1945.

19 The Ghost of a Flea  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:42:26pm

Buy more Survival Seeds, rubes.

20 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:42:42pm

re: #17 Eclectic Cyborg

Boy, Mississippi is on a roll this week. First, they passed an anti-abortion bill that would require a transvaginal ultrasound jokingly called the Women’s Health Defense Act. (I wrote about this bill earlier)

In addition to that, they are also set to pass a measure SPECIFICALLY intended to promote prayer in public schools:

They also just passed a bill banning telemedicine for abortion consultations.

21 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:43:15pm

re: #20 Kragar (Antichrist )

They also just passed a bill banning telemedicine for abortion consultations.

What about for Viagra prescriptions?

22 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:43:25pm

I wonder how long I would last at Mississippi school preaching Crom worship.

23 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:43:45pm

re: #21 FemNaziBitch

What about for Viagra prescriptions?

Nope, just abortions.

24 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:43:52pm

re: #22 Kragar (Antichrist )

I wonder how long I would last at Mississippi school preaching Crom worship.

You could try starting a Yoga Class.

25 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:44:20pm

Or how they would react to having Muslim students calling the faithful to prayer over the intercom system…

26 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:46:05pm

Wonder how well a Hindu prayer would go. I remember when there was a Hindu clergy member who did a prayer before Congress once, the Christian right flipped their shit. Bills like that aren’t about religious liberty or freedom. They’re about favoring Christianity and that’s unconstitutional..

27 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:49:39pm

Willing to bet you if I just replaced some of the names with Jesus, I could get them all to pray to Khorne and Nurgle for a couple of days before they realized it.

28 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:50:18pm

Wingnut Derp O’Teh Day

OBAMA WANTS AMERICANS TO SUFFER!11!!! LEAKED EMAILS PROVES IT!!!!!11!!!!TY

Here is the [partially redacted] email, it reminds me of the Killian memo (but not throbbing). I can’t see where it says WE WANT AMERICANS TO SUFFER DELIBERATELY ON PURPOSE!!!11111 but whatevs.

29 Eclectic Cyborg  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:50:45pm

re: #27 Kragar (Antichrist )

Willing to bet you if I just replaced some of the names with Jesus, I could get them all to pray to Khorne and Nurgle for a couple of days before they realized it.

Isn’t that what Cartman essentially did to make bogus Christian songs on South Park?

30 bratwurst  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:51:26pm

First of all, his obsession with the Holocaust gives me the creeps.

Second of all, he has been predicting doom and gloom since late 2008…won’t his marks catch on eventually?

Oh, and greetings from Lisbon, Portugal. I came here searching (without much luck) for some decent weather on a cheap flight during a visit back to my longtime home in Germany. I was fortunate enough to be a guest at a 110 year old synagogue here today, the only one in this city.

31 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:51:33pm

re: #29 Eclectic Cyborg

Isn’t that what Cartman essentially did to make bogus Christian songs on South Park?

Yep and the band was a hit too.

32 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:52:01pm

re: #26 HappyWarrior

. Bills like that aren’t about religious liberty or freedom. They’re about favoring Christianity and that’s unconstitutional..

They see nothing at all unconstitutional, they see America as a Christian Nation. There is no arguing with these dipshits, there is only trying to contain the damage.

33 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:54:10pm

re: #31 HappyWarrior

Yep and the band was a hit too.

Yeah, except they couldn’t get a Platinum record because their label wasn’t recognized by the mainstream music industry, so Cartman blamed Kyle and Teh Juice.

34 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:54:48pm

re: #30 bratwurst

First of all, his obsession with the Holocaust gives me the creeps.

Second of all, he has been predicting doom and gloom since late 2008…won’t his marks catch on eventually?

Oh, and greetings from Lisbon, Portugal. I came here searching (without much luck) for some decent weather on a cheap flight during a visit back to my longtime home in Germany. I was fortunate enough to be a guest at a 110 year old synagogue here today, the only one in this city.

Cool, have a nice trip. I’ve never been to Portugal ever. Always seemed like a neat place. I find the Portuguese language to be among the more beautiful ones in the world. And yeah it is creepy. He thinks the more he does it, the more he’ll sound like a friend of the Jewish people but what he’s really doing is insulting Holocaust victims by comparing his problems with Obama’s policies to their real suffering.

35 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:55:17pm
36 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:55:51pm

re: #30 bratwurst

First of all, his obsession with the Holocaust gives me the creeps.

Second of all, he has been predicting doom and gloom since late 2008…won’t his marks catch on eventually?

Oh, and greetings from Lisbon, Portugal. I came here searching (without much luck) for some decent weather on a cheap flight during a visit back to my longtime home in Germany. I was fortunate enough to be a guest at a 110 year old synagogue here today, the only one in this city.

Hey, you could have come to New Mexico for nice weather! No synagogues, though, at least not in my town.

37 Dr. Matt  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:56:09pm

Glenn Beck is a professional Drama Queen. (note: No offense to drama queens).

38 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:56:56pm

re: #36 wrenchwench

Hey, you could have come to New Mexico for nice weather! No synagogues, though, at least not in my town.

They’re hiding.

39 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 1:58:11pm

re: #35 Vicious Babushka

DRONES!

40 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:01:14pm

re: #39 Gus

DRONES!

I wish I knew how to do animations, I would so totally love to do a Wiley Coyote vs. a Drone, with the Drone tapping him on the shoulder, hiding behind a tree, setting up an ambush over a cliff, etc.

41 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:02:14pm

Is the way he dresses a sign of mental issues? A plaid shirt (with undershirt showing at the neckline under a dark blazer? A striped shirt, tie and v-neck sweater under that hideous suit jacket? Really?

42 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:02:23pm

Harry Reid Fails To End Filibuster On John Brennan

Reid called for a unanimous consent agreement to move to a direct vote and effectively end the filibuster on the nomination. Paul objected, demanding to hear from the administration directly whether President Obama carried authority to target Americans within the United States with drone strikes. Responding that he did not speak for the administration, Reid relented.

The President is the Commander in Chief of the US military. He also swore an oath to execute his duties, one of which is to protect America from its enemies, foreign and domestic. So yes, he has the authority, but justification would be another matter.

Now shut the fuck up Rand.

43 Dr. Matt  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:03:56pm

Anyone else experiencing weird things with LGF? When I click on “jump to bottom” it takes me back to the front page.

44 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:05:41pm

re: #43 Dr. Matt

I’ve had that happen intermittently over the last few days, but not right now.

45 Eclectic Cyborg  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:06:01pm

re: #43 Dr. Matt

Anyone else experiencing weird things with LGF? When I click on “jump to bottom” it takes me back to the front page.

Must be that new “Jim hoft” algorithm Charles has been testing out…

46 Dr. Matt  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:06:16pm

re: #44 calochortus

Ah. Working fine now. The intertubes must have been clogged.

47 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:06:38pm

Rand Paul: I Don’t Think Obama Will Kill Americans

Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), filibustering John Brennan’s nomination to lead the CIA on Wednesday in objection to the Obama administration’s policy on targeted drone killing, ceded that President Obama personally was not the issue.

“I frankly don’t think he’ll be killing people in their homes tonight,” Paul said.

At stake, Paul explained, was the prospect of unchecked power afforded to the executive branch if clear rules governing lethal force within the United States are not established.

48 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:07:33pm

re: #35 Vicious Babushka

I think the thumbs up over at DKos is for the talking filibuster (as opposed to the customary silent obstruction).

(edited) One hopes that moonbattery over drones is not mainstream there.

49 Eclectic Cyborg  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:10:22pm

With all this drone talk, I think a Tiffany parody is in order:

I think that’s a drone now,
those scary looking things always flying around.
I think that’s a drone now,
Obama’s got a secret plan to take us down.

50 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:10:26pm

re: #6 makeitstop

Once again, I’ll hold my tongue regarding my feelings about Beck to prevent myself from being banned.

Why would you be banned for calling Beck the bloviating rancid skull fuck he is?

51 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:10:40pm

Paul Bearer Dead: WWE Manager of The Undertaker Suffered Blood Clot

WWE announced the news in a statement on the website, saying, “WWE is saddened to learn of the passing of William Moody, aka Paul Bearer. Moody made his WWE debut in 1991 as the manager of The Undertaker and went on to become a memorable part of WWE over the course of the next 20 years. Our deepest condolences go out to Moody’s family, friends and fans.”

52 Eclectic Cyborg  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:12:18pm

re: #51 Kragar (Antichrist )

Paul Bearer Dead: WWE Manager of The Undertaker Suffered Blood Clot

Oh that sucks. Bearer was the perfect compliment to the Undertaker in the early days. It was awesome to see him back for the Dead Man’s return at Wrestlemania XX.

53 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:14:13pm

re: #18 FemNaziBitch

I can’t recommend it enough —direct link. I also Paged it.

Really good perspective. It also shows how people still are in the Cold War mindset. It’s like a whole segment (white people) are stuck in 1945.

That’s pretty obvious to us on the outside.

54 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:16:28pm

re: #29 Eclectic Cyborg

Isn’t that what Cartman essentially did to make bogus Christian songs on South Park?

The Church of the Fonz!

55 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:19:51pm

re: #53 b_sharp

That’s pretty obvious to us on the outside.

Yes, I know.

Another reason I liked this is that Moyers is featuring it during Women’s History Month. You know, a female atheist taking the Theocracy to the Supreme Court, is my kind of story.

The fact that she was very married and a mother who did so in an effort to protect her (seemingly) heterosexual son from bullies at school … . .just gives it a better twist.

56 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:22:23pm

Dogs say I have to take my nap before obedience training class tonite.

:0

57 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:23:37pm

re: #54 FemNaziBitch

The Church of the Fonz!

“Let us aaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyy.”

58 danarchy  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:30:07pm

re: #34 HappyWarrior

I find the Portuguese language to be among the more beautiful ones in the world.

You’ve obviously never had it yelled at you by an angry old portuguese guy…

60 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:40:07pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

Jim Hoft Finally Officially Designated as the Dumbest Man on the Internet With Reed Irvine Award

ZOMG where did Wonkette get that nude photo of Dim Jim? (My eyes! my eyes!)

61 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:46:53pm
62 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:48:27pm

Separated at birth?

63 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:49:49pm

re: #44 calochortus

I’ve had that happen intermittently over the last few days, but not right now.

It happened to me three times a few minutes ago when I tried to upding.

64 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:50:00pm

re: #62 Charles Johnson

Separated at birth?

One on the left is cuter.

65 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:51:01pm

GIANT DOOBIE OF DERP.

66 Bubblehead II  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:51:51pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

Jim Hoft Finally Officially Designated as the Dumbest Man on the Internet With Reed Irvine Award

Lawhawk and I had a brief exchange this morning over Holder’s answer to Paul about the domestic use of Drones against U.S. Citizens. I postulated that Dim Jim would undoubtably come up with something that totally misconstrued his answer to a hypothetical question. Sure enough, he (and Napolitano) did.

Judge Napolitano: Obama’s Drone Policy Is “Stalinistic” (Video)

Holder’s answer to this hypothetical question is not “policy”.

But hey, why let facts stand in the way of a good (and totally inaccurate) smear.

67 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:54:07pm

We are still out of power. When I came inside from shoveling snow my 10 yo daughter was sitting on the couch reading a book. She said “Guess what book I got from the library, daddy.” She flipped it over…it’s Huckleberry Finn.

Damn smart kid. :)

68 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:56:02pm

re: #62 Charles Johnson

“Look into the eyes of a chicken Jim Hoft and you will see real stupidity. It is a kind of bottomless stupidity, a fiendish stupidity. They are the most horrifying, cannibalistic and nightmarish creatures in the world.”
― Werner Herzog

Slightly adjusted.

69 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:56:46pm

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

Damn smart kid. :)

Adopted, huh!?!
//

70 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:57:50pm

DERP DERP

71 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:58:11pm

re: #69 sattv4u2

Damn smart kid. :)

Adopted, huh!?!
//

She is reading on an 8th level. She got her mothers brains, not mine.

72 Shvaughn  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 2:59:22pm

Hey, I missed it, whatever happened with the troll who was obsessed with “El Rushbo” and Sandra Fluke?

73 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:00:32pm

re: #71 NJDhockeyfan

She is reading on an 8th level. She got her mothers brains, not mine.

Ahh,,, 8th grade

3 of the happiest years of my life!!!

74 engineer cat  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:00:43pm

re: #72 Shvaughn

Hey, I missed it, whatever happened with the troll who was obsessed with “El Rushbo” and Sandra Fluke?

his mom told him to stop spending all day in the basement with the computer and go outside and play?

75 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:01:28pm
76 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:03:25pm

re: #72 Shvaughn

Hey, I missed it, whatever happened with the troll who was obsessed with “El Rushbo” and Sandra Fluke?

Why do I always miss the fun toys.

Evening Lizardim from the snowy white wild north country.

77 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:03:27pm

re: #72 Shvaughn

Shhh! Don’t you know the best way to attract a troll is to talk about it?

Seriously though, I’m right on the brink of blocking that one. But some of you lizards seem to be enjoying toying with it, judging from the thousand-comment threads.

78 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:06:54pm
79 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:07:05pm
80 sneb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:07:31pm

This clip is almost as bad as Farfur the Anti-Semitic Mouse being “killed” by an Israeli soldier…

81 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:10:23pm

Heh.

82 AlexRogan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:12:03pm

re: #77 Charles Johnson

Shhh! Don’t you know the best way to attract a troll is to talk about it?

Seriously though, I’m right on the brink of blocking that one. But some of you lizards seem to be enjoying toying with it, judging from the thousand-comment threads.

OTOH, Destro, admirer of Milosevic and other assorted despots and murderous thugs that he is, is overdue to be flushed, IMNSHO.

I’m all for diversity of thought around here, but it’s damned hard to discuss things with someone who tolerates and even champions evil men.

83 AlexRogan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:13:30pm

re: #81 NJDhockeyfan

Heh.

Ugghhh.

Galloping George can get bent.

84 Bubblehead II  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:13:57pm

re: #80 sneb

This clip is almost as bad as Farfur the Anti-Semitic Mouse being “killed” by an Israeli soldier…

Probably because Glenn took his acting lessons from the same teacher. Not to mention that the audience Glenn is trying to reach is as about as indoctrinated in religious intolerance as the FarFur crowd. Same message, just a different religion.

*Edit* BTW, Post more. We bite, but (usually) not very hard.

85 erik_t  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:14:41pm

re: #67 NJDhockeyfan

We are still out of power. When I came inside from shoveling snow my 10 yo daughter was sitting on the couch reading a book. She said “Guess what book I got from the library, daddy.” She flipped it over…it’s Huckleberry Finn.

Damn smart kid. :)

Back in my day, the proper response to a post like this would have been ‘HURRRR THEN HOW ARE YOU POSTING ON THE INTERNET’. Damned technology ruins everything.

/

86 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:15:07pm

re: #81 NJDhockeyfan

Heh.

I truly don’t understand all the Hugo Chavez love. The man was a brutal tyrant.

87 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:15:19pm

re: #71 NJDhockeyfan

She is reading on an 8th level. She got her mothers brains, not mine.

ZOMBIE!!!!

88 Bubblehead II  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:18:03pm

re: #86 thedopefishlives

I truly don’t understand all the Hugo Chavez love. The man was a brutal tyrant.

Not according to Destro. See bottom 10 comments for links.

89 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:18:33pm
90 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:19:30pm

Oops. Derp.

91 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:20:07pm

re: #70 Vicious Babushka

DERP DERP

Sure we feminazis did that. That’s why women’s life expectancies are dropping in the rural west and south, not, say the S.F. Bay Area.

92 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:27:58pm

re: #88 Bubblehead II

Not according to Destro. See bottom 10 comments for links.

I may have found Destro a new favorite gas station.

Citgo’s Houston offices fly flags at half-staff for Hugo Chavez

93 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:29:44pm

re: #92 NJDhockeyfan

I may have found Destro a new favorite gas station.

Citgo’s Houston offices fly flags at half-staff for Hugo Chavez

Citgo and Thuggo Chavez go way back. IIRC, there was even a Citgo boycott either planned or talked about some time ago, after Thuggo said or did something stupid.

94 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:29:48pm

re: #86 thedopefishlives

I truly don’t understand all the Hugo Chavez love. The man was a brutal tyrant.

Due to this current kerfluffle I went and read the History of Venezuela section in Wikipedia. To simplify, it’s a fairly complex mess. From that I’m not surprised that Chavez is viewed by a wide spectrum of judgements. Some people value certain pieces of his legacy more than other pieces - or are more willing to accept certain foibles more than others are.

95 erik_t  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:31:56pm

re: #94 Feline Fearless Leader

And, of course, nuance is not allowed. He must either be the second coming of Jesus Christ or the next Idi Amin.

96 kirkspencer  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:32:16pm

re: #93 thedopefishlives

Citgo and Thuggo Chavez go way back. IIRC, there was even a Citgo boycott either planned or talked about some time ago, after Thuggo said or did something stupid.

Citgo is owned by a Venezuela company.

97 Shvaughn  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:34:33pm

re: #92 NJDhockeyfan

I may have found Destro a new favorite gas station.

Citgo’s Houston offices fly flags at half-staff for Hugo Chavez

Isn’t Citgo a Venezuelan company? I’d sorta expect that U.S. companies would do the same if the POTUS died, regardless of who it was.

98 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:34:37pm

re: #94 Feline Fearless Leader

Due to this current kerfluffle I went and read the History of Venezuela section in Wikipedia. To simplify, it’s a fairly complex mess. From that I’m not surprised that Chavez is viewed by a wide spectrum of judgements. Some people value certain pieces of his legacy more than other pieces - or are more willing to accept certain foibles more than others are.

Real life is not like the movies, there are very few clear-cut villains in the mold of Hitler. Hey, even Mussolini made the trains run on time./

99 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:35:45pm

re: #98 thedopefishlives

Real life is not like the movies, there are very few clear-cut villains in the mold of Hitler. Hey, even Mussolini made the trains run on time./

I’m still convinced the Koch Brother have a hollowed out volcano layer somewhere.

100 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:35:53pm

re: #95 erik_t

And, of course, nuance is not allowed. He must either be the second coming of Jesus Christ or the next Idi Amin.

The lack of it is why I stay out of a lot of the “debates”. Once they turn into (or simply stay) as volleying talking points they are generally a boring waste of comment space in my eyes.

101 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:36:42pm

re: #99 Kragar (Antichrist )

I’m still convinced the Koch Brother have a hollowed out volcano layer somewhere.

Sacrificing elves to Armok in it I’m sure.

102 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:36:49pm

Do it. DO IT WINGNUTS! Hillary/Michelle 2016.

103 Bubblehead II  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:37:01pm

re: #96 kirkspencer

Citgo is owned by a Venezuela company.

Owned/controlled by the Venezuela Government

104 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:37:55pm

Over 150,000 dead because of imaginary WMDs and America is discussing the ethics of “targeted killing” in which only 1 perhaps 2 “Americans” have been killed. 1 man or in this case 0.00066666666%.

“151,000 dead civilians in Iraq? Meh, shit happens. Casualties of war. War is heck and all that. Accidental collateral damage.”

“They killed one American in a targeted drone strike? My God. THAT’S UNETHICAL!!”

105 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:38:46pm

re: #98 thedopefishlives

Real life is not like the movies, there are very few clear-cut villains in the mold of Hitler. Hey, even Mussolini made the trains run on time./

And you also see historically how tons of “reformers” come into power and then find out that getting a society to change is not as easy as it looks on paper. Plus the almost inevitable power accumulation creep that seems to go with it.

(A major reason to treasure George Washington. He wanted to, and then actually walked away from being made a monarch.)

106 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:39:09pm

Federal judge: Public library cannot censor pagan websites

According to the lawsuit, Hunter had attempted to research the religions of indigenous American tribes, but discovered many websites were blocked by the library.

Salem Library Director Glenda Wofford told Hunter the websites could only be unblocked if she had a legitimate reason to access them. The library director allegedly also said she had an “obligation” to call the “proper authorities” to report people who wanted to view blocked websites.

U.S. District Judge E. Richard Webber said Tuesday the library could only block websites labelled “adult image,” “pornography,” “phishing,” “proxy anonymizer,” “viruses,” or “web chat.”

107 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:42:02pm

DERP DERP

108 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:42:19pm

re: #106 Kragar (Antichrist )

Salem Library Director Glenda Wofford told Hunter the websites could only be unblocked if she had a legitimate reason to access them. The library director allegedly also said she had an “obligation” to call the “proper authorities” to report people who wanted to view blocked websites.

I wonder who those “proper authorities” would be?

109 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:42:39pm

re: #106 Kragar (Antichrist )

Federal judge: Public library cannot censor pagan websites

Is it irony that the town is next to the Mark Twain National Forest?

The minute I saw the link title I knew the place would be out in a rural nowhere location. Not sure what state, but it was going to be out in the backwoods so to speak.

110 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:43:16pm

re: #71 NJDhockeyfan

She is reading on an 8th level. She got her mothers brains, not mine.

I was reading at an 8th grade level early too. I was in grade 10.

111 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:44:24pm

re: #86 thedopefishlives

I truly don’t understand all the Hugo Chavez love. The man was a brutal tyrant.

He had a big dick.

112 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:44:45pm

re: #111 b_sharp

He had a big dick.

It was on his head.

113 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:45:14pm

re: #104 Gus

Over 150,000 dead because of imaginary WMDs and America is discussing the ethics of “targeted killing” in which only 1 perhaps 2 “Americans” have been killed. 1 man or in this case 0.00066666666%.

“151,000 dead civilians in Iraq? Meh, shit happens. Casualties of war. War is heck and all that. Accidental collateral damage.”

“They killed one American in a targeted drone strike? My God. THAT’S UNETHICAL!!”

Killing Americans is like killing God, don’t ya know.

114 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:45:29pm

re: #104 Gus

Over 150,000 dead because of imaginary WMDs and America is discussing the ethics of “targeted killing” in which only 1 perhaps 2 “Americans” have been killed. 1 man or in this case 0.00066666666%.

“151,000 dead civilians in Iraq? Meh, shit happens. Casualties of war. War is heck and all that. Accidental collateral damage.”

“They killed one American in a targeted drone strike? My God. THAT’S UNETHICAL!!”

151,000 still seems to be a wild underestimate. And that’s not counting the thousands, if not millions, who fled as the war was going on.

115 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:45:32pm

re: #113 thedopefishlives

Jesus was white! Don’t kill white people! DERP!

116 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:45:44pm

re: #89 Gus

I just spent 20 minutes trying to find the square. When I eventually found it, I realized it was a mouse turd.

117 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:45:51pm

This is for Darthstar, who seems to be working too much at his new job:

Youtube Video
118 erik_t  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:46:13pm

re: #104 Gus

“151,000 dead civilians in Iraq? Meh, shit happens. Casualties of war. War is heck and all that. Accidental collateral damage.”

“They killed one American in a targeted drone strike? My God. THAT’S UNETHICAL!!”

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FOUR AMERICANS WHO DIED IN BENGHAZI!?!?

119 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:46:18pm

re: #111 b_sharp

He had a big dick.

“Biggus Dickus”?

120 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:47:39pm

re: #104 Gus

Over 150,000 dead because of imaginary WMDs and America is discussing the ethics of “targeted killing” in which only 1 perhaps 2 “Americans” have been killed. 1 man or in this case 0.00066666666%.

“151,000 dead civilians in Iraq? Meh, shit happens. Casualties of war. War is heck and all that. Accidental collateral damage.”

“They killed one American in a targeted drone strike? My God. THAT’S UNETHICAL!!”

Wasn’t he a member of a terrorist organization?

121 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:47:46pm

re: #104 Gus

Over 150,000 dead because of imaginary WMDs and America is discussing the ethics of “targeted killing” in which only 1 perhaps 2 “Americans” have been killed. 1 man or in this case 0.00066666666%.

“151,000 dead civilians in Iraq? Meh, shit happens. Casualties of war. War is heck and all that. Accidental collateral damage.”

“They killed one American in a targeted drone strike? My God. THAT’S UNETHICAL!!”

In other circumstances, many would be calling Awlaki an ‘anchor baby’. He was born in Las Cruces while his father was attending NMSU.

122 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:49:27pm

re: #112 Vicious Babushka

It was on his head.

He swiped it from his neighbour.

123 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:50:00pm

re: #120 b_sharp

Wasn’t he a member of a terrorist organization?

Yep.

124 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:51:24pm

re: #123 Gus

Yep.

So what condition takes precedence, being an American or terrorist?

125 erik_t  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:51:53pm

re: #124 b_sharp

So what condition takes precedence, being an American or terrorist?

Depends on who’s in office.

126 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:53:02pm

re: #125 erik_t

Depends on who’s in office.

So only Republicans are allowed to kill terrorists?

127 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:53:29pm

re: #124 b_sharp

So what condition takes precedence, being an American or terrorist?

For me? The latter.

128 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:54:00pm

re: #114 Targetpractice

151,000 still seems to be a wild underestimate. And that’s not counting the thousands, if not millions, who fled as the war was going on.

It depends on how you count it. I think it’s a bit high but not by much. I was just looking at the Iraq Casualty type pages. They’re still counting every sectarian attack and murder as part of the tally. Which got me to thinking; was the Iraq war an increase in the death toll for the country?
Iraq Casualties, 1980-2009: From Saddam Hussein to George Bush

The largest number of deaths during his reign is attributable to the Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988). Iraq claims to have lost 500,000 people during that war.
The 1990 occupation of Kuwait and the ensuing Gulf War caused 100,000 deaths, by Iraq’s reckoning—probably an exaggeration, but not by much: the 40-day bombardment of Iraq before the three-day ground war, and the massacre of escaping Iraqi troops on the “highway of death” make the estimate more credible than not.
“Casualties from Iraq’s gulag are harder to estimate,” Burns wrote. “Accounts collected by Western human rights groups from Iraqis and defectors have suggested that the number of those who have ‘disappeared’ into the hands of the secret police, never to be heard from again, could be 200,000.”

Add it up, and in three decades, about 900,000 Iraqis have died from violence, or well over 3% of the Iraqi population—the equivalent of more than 9 million people in a nation with a population as large as that of the United States. That’s what Iraq will have to recover from over the next decades—not just the death toll of the last six years, but that of the last 30.

129 erik_t  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:54:20pm

re: #126 thedopefishlives

So only Republicans are allowed to kill terrorists?

Pfft. As if a damned dirty Democrat has the competence or guts to actually keep ‘Murrica safe by killing a terrorist.

/

130 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:54:20pm

re: #126 thedopefishlives

So only Republicans are allowed to kill terrorists Americans?

More like that.

131 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:57:17pm

re: #129 erik_t

Pfft. As if a damned dirty Democrat has the competence or guts to actually keep ‘Murrica safe by killing a terrorist.

/

Image: Obama_the_Sheriff.jpg

Damn skippy.

132 Blue Point  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:57:25pm

Glenn Beck can strangle brain cells with his voice. On tape. Days later.

133 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:58:54pm

re: #114 Targetpractice

151,000 still seems to be a wild underestimate. And that’s not counting the thousands, if not millions, who fled as the war was going on.

Pick one here. I typically use that figure. I realize that sometimes it pisses people off. Not saying you are but I’ve had people freak over that figure.

134 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:59:00pm
135 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 3:59:08pm

re: #133 Gus

Pick one here. I typically use that figure. I realize that sometimes it pisses people off. Not saying you are but I’ve had people freak over that figure.

Oops. Link…

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

136 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:03:07pm
137 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:03:11pm

DERP DE DERP

138 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:04:04pm

Meep meep.

139 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:04:45pm

re: #137 Vicious Babushka

#bengahazi

Hashtag fail.

140 erik_t  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:05:41pm

re: #139 wrenchwench

Hashtag fail.

Hashtag fial.

141 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:06:15pm

I wasn’t kidding about Republicans raising money over drones.

142 klys  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:06:17pm

re: #139 wrenchwench

Hashtag fail.

Hashtag flail.

143 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:06:18pm

re: #139 wrenchwench

Hashtag fail.

Imaginary drones blowing up imaginary terrorists in imaginary places.

What a plot.

144 b_sharp  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:06:56pm

re: #138 Goats of Hugo Chavez

Meep meep.

Crap.

145 klys  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:07:44pm

re: #108 calochortus

I wonder who those “proper authorities” would be?

I’m gonna guess the local pastors.

146 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:08:47pm

re: #145 klys

I’m gonna guess the local pastors.

I’m gonna guess a librarian could get in trouble for reporting that information to the “local pastors.”

147 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:09:01pm

re: #141 Gus

Looks like the NRSC is taking writing tips from the online RW nut jobs:

SUPPORT TEAM #FILIBUSTER DURING #FILIBLIZZARD

148 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:09:09pm

re: #133 Gus

Pick one here. I typically use that figure. I realize that sometimes it pisses people off. Not saying you are but I’ve had people freak over that figure.

Nah, not freaking out, just think that with all the shit that went on, 151,000 seems low. But then again I’m thinking in terms of past wars, as opposed to the modern idea of dropping smart bombs on people’s heads.

149 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:09:33pm
150 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:10:11pm

re: #149 Vicious Babushka

One vote for “hell no” here.

151 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:10:16pm
152 klys  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:12:11pm

re: #146 calochortus

I’m gonna guess a librarian could get in trouble for reporting that information to the “local pastors.”

Oh, I would agree. But. I suspect some people would still do that. Since someone clearly thought it was ok to block stuff that should not be blocked, to the point where we had a court case about it.

153 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:12:22pm

This is also why continuing to count every attack as part of Bush’s Iraq death toll is problematic
Iraqis call for U.S. military aid after Nusra-linked assault on ‘innocent Syrians’

Top Iraqi officials called Tuesday for the United States to step up its promised delivery of major arms after an ambush well inside Iraq by suspected Islamist militants that left more than 50 Syrians and a dozen Iraqi troops dead.

The Iraqi government was clearly rattled by Monday’s incident, which seemed to bear out its worst fears that Syria’s civil war would spill into the country.

Two top Iraqi officials said the attackers were almost certainly members of al Qaida in Iraq or the Nusra Front, one of the most effective groups fighting to topple the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad.

Does spillover from the Syrian conflict count? I suppose you could make the case but the picture starts to get muddy. It’s a violent region.

154 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:12:46pm
155 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:12:49pm

re: #149 Vicious Babushka

Well obviously. All those long calls, sending out emails, lunch appointments, golf games, and cocktail parties? My God, have you no respect for how much hard work they do?

////

156 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:12:58pm
157 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:13:34pm

re: #155 Targetpractice

Well obviously. All those long calls, sending out emails, lunch appointments, golf games, and cocktail parties? My God, have you no respect for how much hard work they do?

////

Not to mention the long hours with tax advisors…

158 erik_t  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:15:11pm

Drones were fine, for some reason, back when they were called “cruise missiles” and they didn’t come back.

I just can’t get the apoplexy.

159 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:15:22pm

DERP


Yeah, there totally are oil subsidies.

160 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:15:42pm

re: #152 klys

People. They (we?) are stupid.

161 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:17:33pm

re: #158 erik_t

Drones were fine, for some reason, when they were called “cruise missiles” and they didn’t come back.

I just can’t get the apoplexy.

I understand a little bit because a cruise missile won’t loiter over your house with a spy camera. But people are blowing that way out of proportion.

162 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:17:46pm

*FACE PALM*

163 erik_t  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:17:58pm

re: #159 Vicious Babushka

DERP


Yeah, there totally are oil subsidies.

Yeah, but who are you going to believe? The Defense Network, or the agenda-having federal government?

/

164 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:18:13pm

Well this sucks:

[Link: www.vice.com…]

Among the evidence that a woman is a prostitute is being dressed provocatively and carrying condoms.

Think about that. You’re more likely to be convicted of prostitution if you’re carrying condoms.

This is a policy that leads to sex workers not using condoms.

For fuck’s sake.

165 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:19:00pm

re: #163 erik_t

Yeah, but who are you going to believe? The Defense Network, or the agenda-having federal government?

/

IT’S THE NEW YORK POST!!!11

166 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:19:33pm

re: #164 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Well this sucks:

[Link: www.vice.com…]

Among the evidence that a woman is a prostitute is being dressed provocatively and carrying condoms.

Think about that. You’re more likely to be convicted of prostitution if you’re carrying condoms.

This is a policy that leads to sex workers not using condoms.

For fuck’s sake.

Not saying that legalizing prostitution would be a good thing, but this is the sort of thing that happens when you legislate morality.

167 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:19:49pm

re: #159 Vicious Babushka

DERP


Yeah, there totally are oil subsidies.

If special tax credits and deductions are not “subsidies,” then paying taxes all year and getting money back through credits and deductions does not mean one is a “taker.”

168 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:21:06pm

re: #166 thedopefishlives

Not saying that legalizing prostitution would be a good thing, but this is the sort of thing that happens when you legislate morality.

It is also a case study in the effect of arbitrary and capricious law enforcement.

169 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:23:27pm

re: #166 thedopefishlives

Not saying that legalizing prostitution would be a good thing, but this is the sort of thing that happens when you legislate morality.

Targeting prostitutes is always stupid. A tiny percentage of prostitutes are prostitutes because they decided that’s their goal. Most are forced into it by economic necessity or a pimp. Arresting them does no good for anyone, at all.

And arresting them with part of the basis being that they had condoms— it’s just infuriating.

170 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:24:40pm

re: #169 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Maybe we could crack down on pimping and pay less attention to the prostitutes? Oh, I know, it’s much harder…

171 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:24:56pm

re: #169 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Targeting prostitutes is always stupid. A tiny percentage of prostitutes are prostitutes because they decided that’s their goal. Most are forced into it by economic necessity or a pimp. Arresting them does no good for anyone, at all.

And arresting them with part of the basis being that they had condoms— it’s just infuriating.

The police could just as easily arrest an innocent housewife out on the town with her girlfriends because she was wearing a slinky low-cut dress and happened to have some condoms in her purse.

172 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:26:07pm
173 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:26:12pm

re: #171 thedopefishlives

The police could just as easily arrest an innocent housewife out on the town with her girlfriends because she was wearing a slinky low-cut dress and happened to have some condoms in her purse.

But I’ll be they won’t be checking the purses of middle-class housewives.

174 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:28:48pm

re: #77 Charles Johnson

Shhh! Don’t you know the best way to attract a troll is to talk about it?

Seriously though, I’m right on the brink of blocking that one. But some of you lizards seem to be enjoying toying with it, judging from the thousand-comment threads.

I am still waiting for my chance to have it out with m on abortion, the violinist argument tends to provide interesting results since it gives them the fetus as having all the rights of a human being, then goes on to prove why that still does not make abortion a crime.

175 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:29:33pm

re: #173 calochortus

But I’ll be they won’t be checking the purses of middle-class housewives.

Of course. If anyone could be arrested under arbitrary policing standards, then the usual privileges of race and class will apply.

176 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:30:35pm

re: #104 Gus

Over 150,000 dead because of imaginary WMDs and America is discussing the ethics of “targeted killing” in which only 1 perhaps 2 “Americans” have been killed. 1 man or in this case 0.00066666666%.

“151,000 dead civilians in Iraq? Meh, shit happens. Casualties of war. War is heck and all that. Accidental collateral damage.”

“They killed one American in a targeted drone strike? My God. THAT’S UNETHICAL!!”

My question is, would we still be having this argument if we were flying actual helicopters with people in them to shoot missiles instead of using robots to do it?

177 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:30:39pm
178 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:31:44pm
179 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:32:43pm

Oops, meant this.

180 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:33:54pm

#StandWithRand and end WELFARE to Israel!

181 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:34:06pm

re: #174 jamesfirecat

I am still waiting for my chance to have it out with m on abortion, the violinist argument tends to provide interesting results since it gives them the fetus as having all the rights of a human being, then goes on to prove why that still does not make abortion a crime.

I’ve never convinced anyone with that argument. At its core, this isn’t an exercise in logic for most people.

182 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:34:52pm

Excuse me while my head explodes. We just went through a month of BS about Hagel, Israel, Jews and “Friends of Hamas.” Now it’s stand with Rand “End Welfare to Israel” Paul?

183 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:34:53pm

I will not be voting for this guy again
Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden joins Rand Paul’s filibuster

184 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:38:48pm

re: #181 calochortus

I’ve never convinced anyone with that argument. At its core, this isn’t an exercise in logic for most people.

Yes but it is intesting to see how they respond once you move beyond the nebulousness area of is it a human life or not and into the cold hard facts of what rights do we have as human beings in a given society, and right now our society says you can keep your organs to yourself even if someone else dies because of it.

185 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:39:00pm

re: #181 calochortus

I’ve never convinced anyone with that argument. At its core, this isn’t an exercise in logic for most people.

For me, the closest I get to using logic in relation to my pro-choice position is that I will reject any set of ethical premises that would logically contradict a pro-choice position.

In other words, I’ll reason backward from a pro choice position, as opposed to trying to base it on more general principles.

In agreement with your observation, this strikes me as a rather common mode of thinking on this issue, for both sides.

186 Single-handed sailor  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:39:03pm

re: #176 jamesfirecat

My question is, would we still be having this argument if we were flying actual helicopters with people in them to shoot missiles instead of using robots to do it?

Well, Texas does shoot illegal immigrants from helicopters.

187 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:39:21pm

Dear God what a zoo.

188 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:39:48pm

re: #187 Gus

Dear God what a zoo.

Oh, for the love of Pete.

189 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:39:59pm

re: #180 Gus

#StandWithRand and end WELFARE to Israel!

Wingnuts are Hot Air could not possibly be more excited about Rand’s antics today. He’s a strong contender for the short term future of the party but he needs some sort of coherent strain of ideas if it’s going to take hold. For now he’s just kind of a random bag of stuff.

190 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:40:17pm

re: #176 jamesfirecat

My question is, would we still be having this argument if we were flying actual helicopters with people in them to shoot missiles instead of using robots to do it?

Well. Two kids were accidentally killed by manned helicopters and no one seemed to give a crap. So, maybe.

191 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:43:15pm

re: #184 jamesfirecat

Yes but it is intesting to see how they respond once you move beyond the nebulousness area of is it a human life or not and into the cold hard facts of what rights do we have as human beings in a given society, and right now our society says you can keep your organs to yourself even if someone else dies because of it.

Isn’t the normal move to deny the analogy, possibly combined with some measure of sex = consent to pregnancy?

192 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:43:44pm

re: #187 Gus

Dear God what a zoo.

Top of the Dkos rec list
Answer the question, Mr. President
Wyden, Rand Paul and yes…Glenn Greenwald. Could Rand be the new “hope and change” candidate?

193 erik_t  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:45:23pm

re: #192 Killgore Trout

Could Rand be the new “hope and change” candidate?

Lemme think about tha— no. No no no no. No.

What a stupid question.

194 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:45:37pm

re: #192 Killgore Trout

Top of the Dkos rec list
Answer the question, Mr. President
Wyden, Rand Paul and yes…Glenn Greenwald. Could Rand be the new “hope and change” candidate?

Just saw this…

195 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:46:39pm

re: #182 Gus

Excuse me while my head explodes. We just went through a month of BS about Hagel, Israel, Jews and “Friends of Hamas.” Now it’s stand with Rand “End Welfare to Israel” Paul?

RWNJ’s have short attention spans. Dr. Ben who?
OH LOOK SHINY!

196 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:46:43pm

re: #194 Gus

Just saw this…

Moronic convergence achieved.

197 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:47:04pm

re: #191 EPR-radar

Isn’t the normal move to deny the analogy, possibly combined with some measure of sex = consent to pregnancy?

That or some version of “but it’s an innocent baby”.

198 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:47:54pm

re: #187 Gus

That’s hilarious actually. Perfect example of the wrap-around effect.

With kook libertarianoids like Rand Paul, if they talk long enough practically anyone will hear something they agree with, because the views are so weird and inconsistent and all over the map. Basically, though, what Rand Paul is selling is a lot more like reactionary John Birch-style paleo-con ideology.

199 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:48:48pm

re: #197 calochortus

That or some version of “but it’s an innocent baby”.

Innocent baby misses the point though because it may be immoral but it is not illegal to let someone die by denying them a kidney/blood transfusion.

200 jamesfirecat  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:49:29pm

re: #191 EPR-radar

Isn’t the normal move to deny the analogy, possibly combined with some measure of sex = consent to pregnancy?

Yeah I had one of those a few years back will be interesting to see what Doctor Tesla brings to the table if he cares to debate the issue with me.

201 calochortus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:49:48pm

re: #199 jamesfirecat

Innocent baby misses the point though because it may be immoral but it is not illegal to let someone die by denying them a kidney/blood transfusion.

Yes, it does miss the point, but that’s where the discussion tends to go.

202 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:50:03pm

re: #182 Gus

Excuse me while my head explodes. We just went through a month of BS about Hagel, Israel, Jews and “Friends of Hamas.” Now it’s stand with Rand “End Welfare to Israel” Paul?

203 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:50:24pm

re: #186 Single-handed sailor

Well, Texas does shoot illegal immigrants from helicopters.

They closed the season.

204 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:51:52pm

re: #202 Vicious Babushka

State’s Rights and Isolationism is popular with that crowd.

205 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:52:45pm

re: #198 Charles Johnson

That’s hilarious actually. Perfect example of the wrap-around effect.

With kook libertarianoids like Rand Paul, if they talk long enough practically anyone will hear something they agree with, because the views are so weird and inconsistent and all over the map. Basically, though, what Rand Paul is selling is a lot more like reactionary John Birch-style paleo-con ideology.

The circus atmosphere of making this the point of yet another GOP filibuster of an Obama nominee is unfortunate.

There is a legitimate question here —- under what circumstances do US authorities kill people in non-military actions that are not subject to normal legal processes?

The answer so far from the Obama administration seems to basically be “trust us”, which is inadequate.

206 Bubblehead II  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:52:53pm

Night Lizards.

207 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:52:55pm

re: #198 Charles Johnson

That’s hilarious actually. Perfect example of the wrap-around effect.

With kook libertarianoids like Rand Paul, if they talk long enough practically anyone will hear something they agree with, because the views are so weird and inconsistent and all over the map. Basically, though, what Rand Paul is selling is a lot more like reactionary John Birch-style paleo-con ideology.

208 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:53:10pm

re: #206 Bubblehead II

Night Lizards.

Day Lizards!

209 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:55:09pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

I will not be voting for this guy again
Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden joins Rand Paul’s filibuster

Sorry to see him go down that path. I remember when he won his first congressional race. He worked for it.

210 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 4:57:14pm

re: #207 Gus

Isolationists all seem to hang around that convergence point.

211 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:00:08pm

Yippee! My Circle of Derp graphic is a top image at #filibuster.

212 dragonath  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:01:15pm

Dammit, every time I give Kossacks the benefit of the doubt, they gotta post pages like this.

213 dragonath  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:02:49pm

It’s gotta be the fluoride in the water or something

214 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:03:43pm

re: #213 dragonath

It’s gotta be the fluoride in the water or something

There’ll be a new medical study soon. “Chemtrails, fluoride and Sudden Onset Derp Syndrome.”

215 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:07:50pm

Just got back from the dentist. My regular cleaning became a deep cleaning.

216 Bear  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:09:56pm

re: #215 Kragar (Antichrist )

Ouch!

217 Feline Fearless Leader  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:10:16pm

re: #208 Gus

Day Lizards!

I looked up Google image on “Lizards of the Twilight” and mainly got images of lizards having sex captioned “But it is still better than Twilight.” :p

However, I did pick up an image and captioned it for later use.

Image: Lizard_on_a_roll.jpg

218 dragonath  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:10:16pm

Dentists… Hugo Chavez… Drones…

219 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:10:54pm

re: #198 Charles Johnson

That’s hilarious actually. Perfect example of the wrap-around effect.

With kook libertarianoids like Rand Paul, if they talk long enough practically anyone will hear something they agree with, because the views are so weird and inconsistent and all over the map. Basically, though, what Rand Paul is selling is a lot more like reactionary John Birch-style paleo-con ideology.

It’s like Charlie Pierce says about Rand’s old man and all libertarians, it’s the Five Minute Rule. You can listen to them for five minutes and they’ll say stuff that you nod along to and think they might have a point. But then 5:00:01 hits and they start nattering about auditing the Fed and you instinctually start looking for the eject lever.

220 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:11:31pm

re: #217 Feline Fearless Leader

I looked up Google image on “Lizards of the Twilight” and mainly got images of lizards having sex captioned “But it is still better than Twilight.” :p

However, I did pick up an image and captioned it for later use.

Image: Lizard_on_a_roll.jpg

That’s one crazy lizard!

221 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:11:40pm

re: #216 Bear

Ouch!

Wasn’t so bad, they numbed me up, just wearing off now

222 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:12:18pm

re: #215 Kragar (Antichrist )

Just got back from the dentist. My regular cleaning became a deep cleaning.

Did they find my remote control back there? Been looking everywhere for it.

//

223 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:13:15pm

Isolationism is an easy sell, a lot of the time. For the Left, it can easily be sold as “We fuck up everything we touch, let’s just stop fucking touching stuff.” And it kind of makes sense until you think about the typhoon, until you think about Africa, and you realize it’s a spoiled rich kid’s position. Rich nations have a moral obligation to help poorer nations, both directly and indirectly, and we have an obligation to do what can best spread democracy, too. That last one is tricky, lemme tell you.

224 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:13:40pm

Rand Paul Launches Talking Filibuster: Demands Assurance Obama Won’t Use Drones Against Americans In U.S.

Why bother with a drone when we can easily deploy our own security forces to kill them within our borders?

225 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:14:14pm

re: #222 Targetpractice

Did they find my remote control back there? Been looking everywhere for it.

//

Proctologist appt isn’t for a few more weeks.

226 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:15:08pm

re: #223 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Isolationism is an easy sell, a lot of the time. For the Left, it can easily be sold as “We fuck up everything we touch, let’s just stop fucking touching stuff.” And it kind of makes sense until you think about the typhoon, until you think about Africa, and you realize it’s a spoiled rich kid’s position. Rich nations have a moral obligation to help poorer nations, both directly and indirectly, and we have an obligation to do what can best spread democracy, too. That last one is tricky, lemme tell you.

Especially when US multinationals are some of the worst offenders in terms of making other nations ungovernable if they can’t be ‘properly exploited’.

227 HoosierHoops  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:16:01pm

Maybe I’m just dumb.. I just don’t get Rand Paul shitting himself about drone strikes in the US. Look Rand baby…If there is a terrorist on Main Street we call the Police, SWAT or the damn FBI. Who would destroy his political and personal career sending a Hellfire missile on America? Rand just created the biggest straw man of all time.

228 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:17:21pm

re: #223 Glenn Beck’s Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut

Isolationism is an easy sell, a lot of the time. For the Left, it can easily be sold as “We fuck up everything we touch, let’s just stop fucking touching stuff.” And it kind of makes sense until you think about the typhoon, until you think about Africa, and you realize it’s a spoiled rich kid’s position. Rich nations have a moral obligation to help poorer nations, both directly and indirectly, and we have an obligation to do what can best spread democracy, too. That last one is tricky, lemme tell you.

At this point in our nation’s history, isolationism is simply not an option. The last thing we can afford in the modern world is to become a pariah state because we think we’re better off when we look out only for ourselves.

229 Bear  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:17:51pm

re: #221 Kragar (Antichrist )

Way back when an Army dentist did a half baked job of not giving enough numbing stuff, I gave the dentist a good hard kick. Result - Nurse another shot. No not for him.

230 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:18:31pm

re: #227 HoosierHoops

Maybe I’m just dumb.. I just don’t get Rand Paul shitting himself about drone strikes in the US. Look Rand baby…If there is a terrorist on Main Street we call the Police, SWAT or the damn FBI. Who would destroy his political and personal career sending a Hellfire missile on America? Rand just created the biggest straw man of all time.

Perhaps the GOP was limited by the interests of those GOP senators stupid enough to filibuster the Brennan nomination.

To twist an old line, you go to a filibuster with the senators you have, not the ones you wish you had.

231 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:18:52pm

re: #227 HoosierHoops

Maybe I’m just dumb.. I just don’t get Rand Paul shitting himself about drone strikes in the US. Look Rand baby…If there is a terrorist on Main Street we call the Police, SWAT or the damn FBI. Who would destroy his political and personal career sending a Hellfire missile on America? Rand just created the biggest straw man of all time.

Thing is, it’s working. Why? Because we’re slowly creeping out of the post-Bush hangover and realizing that, yes, we gave the government the power to do a lot of shit that would turn one’s hair white if it had been proposed on Sept 10th, 2001.

232 Amory Blaine  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:18:53pm

re: #207 Gus

The bizarro centrist.

233 dragonath  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:20:19pm

I remember when Blackwater was all the rage. Maybe we can sell some drones to them.

234 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:24:46pm

re: #231 Targetpractice

Thing is, it’s working. Why? Because we’re slowly creeping out of the post-Bush hangover and realizing that, yes, we gave the government the power to do a lot of shit that would turn one’s hair white if it had been proposed on Sept 10th, 2001.

Thing is, there’s no denying that our inward-looking data gathering needed a serious upgrade in light of 9/11. It’s just that nobody at the time had the least clue how to go about doing it right, and as a result, we got a whale of a clusterfark done on our civil liberties.

235 Amory Blaine  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:25:23pm

I’m skeptical about drones. I’m sure they have a role in defense but I’m not positive we will keep that role to reasonable agenda. Not to mention I think they are horrible ambassadors for winning hearts and minds.

Edit: I mean armed drones.

236 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:27:42pm

You know who else would harangue for hours on end?

(I really want to smoke that giant doobie of Derp!)

237 Amory Blaine  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:28:09pm

re: #236 Vicious Babushka

Spark it up!

238 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:28:48pm

re: #234 thedopefishlives

Thing is, there’s no denying that our inward-looking data gathering needed a serious upgrade in light of 9/11. It’s just that nobody at the time had the least clue how to go about doing it right, and as a result, we got a whale of a clusterfark done on our civil liberties.

We were scared, we wanted action, and we were willing to sign onto whatever dotted line was offered to get some reassurance that we were safe. Times like these, the Franklin line about liberty and security is truly apt.

239 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:32:35pm

re: #238 Targetpractice

We were scared, we wanted action, and we were willing to sign onto whatever dotted line was offered to get some reassurance that we were safe. Times like these, the Franklin line about liberty and security is truly apt.

These civil liberties issues will be extremely difficult to remedy —- no administration wants to be in the position of having backed off on executive powers, followed by a terrorist attack in the US.

240 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:33:49pm

re: #239 EPR-radar

These civil liberties issues will be extremely difficult to remedy —- no administration wants to be in the position of having backed off on executive powers, followed by a terrorist attack in the US.

Problem of course is that we already kicked the door open. Kinda hard now to get irate that they’re taking full advantage of it in the name of “national security.”

241 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:34:07pm
Youtube Video
242 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:34:09pm

re: #224 Kragar (Antichrist )

Rand Paul Launches Talking Filibuster: Demands Assurance Obama Won’t Use Drones Against Americans In U.S.

Why bother with a drone when we can easily deploy our own security forces to kill them within our borders?

Which is basically what Holder said today:

“I can’t imagine a situation where that would ever be necessary.”

243 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:35:14pm

The wingnuts think they can make Rand Paul President by Acclamation.

At first I thought the Randmania was funny, now it’s kind of starting to freak me out.

244 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:36:20pm

re: #240 Targetpractice

Problem of course is that we already kicked the door open. Kinda hard now to get irate that they’re taking full advantage of it in the name of “national security.”

The one chance there was to mostly undo this stuff was when Obama first got into office. That didn’t happen, and now the ‘kill list’ and other civil liberties infringements have the bipartisan seal of approval.

245 Bear  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:36:28pm

re: #238 Targetpractice

In junior high my poly sci teacher said that in times of war the Constitution was put on a shelf.

246 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:37:06pm

re: #245 Bear

In junior high my poly sci teacher said that in times of war the Constitution was put on a shelf.

Very true, and disturbing in the context of a perpetual war.

247 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:37:07pm

re: #242 austin_blue

Which is basically what Holder said today:

“I can’t imagine a situation where that would ever be necessary.”

True. But it might be fun to lase the paranoids with a hoked-up visible green designator. (The real ones are IR, they wouldn’t see it.)

248 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:37:34pm

re: #241 Varek Raith

[Embedded content]

I thought the ‘nut sandwich’ tag should have been up there.

249 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:37:58pm

re: #245 Bear

In junior high my poly sci teacher said that in times of war the Constitution was put on a shelf.

A good enough reason to avoid the Endless War.

250 Bear  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:38:00pm

re: #246 EPR-radar

This was in the early 1940s.

251 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:38:03pm

re: #245 Bear

In junior high my poly sci teacher said that in times of war the Constitution was put on a shelf.

President Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus.

252 Amory Blaine  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:38:22pm

I am in full favor of the tacocopter however. Full government funding even!!

253 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:38:46pm

Has Rand Paul had a bathroom break yet?

254 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:38:59pm

I would like to thank Sen. Paul for one thing, and that’s giving Americans a front-row seat to what a real filibuster is supposed to look like. Not the minority demanding that the majority has to muster up 60 votes on any bill it wants to pass, but actually sitting there and keeping debate going until either the filibustering party collapses from exhaustion or public opposition grows such that the bill dies from lack of support.

255 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:39:42pm

re: #253 Vicious Babushka

Has Rand Paul had a bathroom break yet?

Depends—on your definition…

256 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:39:46pm

re: #247 Decatur Deb

True. But it might be fun to lase the paranoids with a hooked-up visible green designator. (The real ones are IR, they wouldn’t see it.)

Did you hear the black helicopters over your house last night?

Umm..no.

See!!!

257 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:40:18pm

re: #254 Targetpractice

I would like to thank Sen. Paul for one thing, and that’s giving Americans a front-row seat to what a real filibuster is supposed to look like. Not the minority demanding that the majority has to muster up 60 votes on any bill it wants to pass, but actually sitting there and keeping debate going until either the filibustering party collapses from exhaustion or public opposition grows such that the bill dies from lack of support.

Agreed. I think the Senate should revisit the question of filibuster reform, and at the very least require all filibustering to be carried out by talking on the floor of the Senate.

258 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:40:46pm

re: #256 austin_blue

Did you hear the black helicopters over your house last night?

Umm..no.

See!!!

Can’t see them either, thanks to my patented cloaking devices leased to the NWO.

259 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:41:07pm

re: #245 Bear

In junior high my poly sci teacher said that in times of war the Constitution was put on a shelf.

Inter arma enim silent leges.

260 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:41:07pm

Image: hD717CFFE.jpg

Later, lizards.

261 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:42:02pm

re: #253 Vicious Babushka

Has Rand Paul had a bathroom break yet?

Foley catheter. He came prepared.

262 Amory Blaine  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:42:21pm

re: #253 Vicious Babushka

He absorbs all excretions. Demands of the AquaBuddha.

263 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:43:09pm

re: #254 Targetpractice

I would like to thank Sen. Paul for one thing, and that’s giving Americans a front-row seat to what a real filibuster is supposed to look like. Not the minority demanding that the majority has to muster up 60 votes on any bill it wants to pass, but actually sitting there and keeping debate going until either the filibustering party collapses from exhaustion or public opposition grows such that the bill dies from lack of support.

Don’t think it’s been done in the C-SPAN era. Interesting to see how it plays out.

264 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:44:18pm

re: #242 austin_blue

Which is basically what Holder said today:

“I can’t imagine a situation where that would ever be necessary.”

That’s kind of weaselly though, isn’t it? We’re now asked to rely on the capacity of Eric Holder’s imagination to gauge and limit the likelihood of extrajudicial assassinations of citizens on US soil.

I don’t care who the fuck says something like that, it’s not very comforting from a civil liberties standpoint.

265 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:44:42pm

re: #261 austin_blue

Foley catheter. He came prepared.

Motorman’s Friend:

[Link: www.inc.com…]

266 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:45:22pm

The wingnuts adoration of Rand Paul still has not reached the level of their hate for Obama.

267 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:46:07pm

re: #264 goddamnedfrank

Holder’s answer comes down to “trust us”, and is inadequate on its face.

268 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:46:22pm

re: #263 Decatur Deb

Don’t think it’s been done in the C-SPAN era. Interesting to see how it plays out.

Well, we saw earlier that Paul actually managed to stump Reid by asking him to answer in the White House’s stead about drone strikes and Reid had to admit he couldn’t speak for the administration and so allow the filibuster to continue into tomorrow. Paul may be a crazy SOB, but he did seem to come prepared.

269 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:47:57pm

re: #266 Vicious Babushka

The wingnuts adoration of Rand Paul still has not reached the level of their hate for Obama.

Surveying the body parts I would sacrifice to assure Rand Paul gets the TPGOP 2016 nomination.

270 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:49:10pm

re: #269 Decatur Deb

Surveying the body parts I would sacrifice to assure Rand Paul gets the TPGOP 2016 nomination.

271 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:49:41pm

re: #264 goddamnedfrank

That’s kind of weaselly though, isn’t it? We’re now asked to rely on the capacity of Eric Holder’s imagination to gauge and limit the likelihood of extrajudicial assassinations of citizens on US soil.

I don’t care who the fuck says something like that, it’s not very comforting from a civil liberties standpoint.

I don’t disagree at all, but at least it was an honest response. What I find odd is that such an act, if performed by Jack Bauer on “24”, would have the RWNJ’s jumping up and down in their living rooms. But by him not saying “It’ll never during the Obama Presidency”, the same RWNJ’s insist that the big O will target them.

What an odd country we live in, these days…

272 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:50:03pm
273 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:50:37pm

I just watched the Glenn Beck clip, what fantastic theater! The only disappointment was that he denied us the money shot of tears running down his face.

274 kirkspencer  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:51:05pm

It annoys and frightens me when I find myself in agreement with the wingnut/moonbat convergence.

But the simple deal is that there has been a lot of words sent to the administration asking for a simple yes or no to what should be a simple question:

Can the president assassinate US citizens on US soil? Can the president order the death of a US citizen without trial even if he or she is on US soil?

Because we already know that it can be done off US soil. For some of us that’s too far, but it’s where we are right now.

275 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:51:16pm

StandwithRand?

Wouldn’t stallwithpaul be a better fit?

276 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:51:17pm
277 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:51:39pm

re: #270 Vicious Babushka

That would be so awesome! I want a Clinton/Obama ‘16 bumpersticker now!

278 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:51:46pm

re: #273 aagcobb

I just watched the Glenn Beck clip, what fantastic theater! The only disappointment was that he denied us the money shot of tears running down his face.

“AND I NEVER LEARNED HOW TO READ!”
/

279 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:51:59pm

DERP

280 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:52:31pm

“National Right to Work But Not Get Paid”

281 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:53:37pm

re: #279 Vicious Babushka

DERP

Oh Lord. The derp is really strong with this one.

282 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:53:45pm

Right to Fire for no Reason.

283 erik_t  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:54:07pm

re: #279 Vicious Babushka

DERP

@Patrick501PIR Rand Paul Introduces National Right to Work Act - Katie Pavlich [Link: townhall.com…] … via @townhallcom #wiunion #inunion #tgdn #twisters

Something something state’s rights.

284 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:54:09pm

re: #279 Vicious Babushka

DERP

Right. Because the sole purpose of Unions is to keep people from working.

285 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:54:18pm

Srsly wingnuts, he ain’t all that.

286 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:54:29pm

re: #274 kirkspencer

It annoys and frightens me when I find myself in agreement with the wingnut/moonbat convergence.

But the simple deal is that there has been a lot of words sent to the administration asking for a simple yes or no to what should be a simple question:

Can the president assassinate US citizens on US soil? Can the president order the death of a US citizen without trial even if he or she is on US soil?

Because we already know that it can be done off US soil. For some of us that’s too far, but it’s where we are right now.

The local sheriff can decide to order the death of an American citizen on US soil. Kinda depends on what everybody is doing at the moment.

287 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:54:34pm

re: #276 Gus

Except for being an attorney, a community organizer, President of the Harvard Law Review, etc, he was a complete slacker.

288 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:55:01pm

re: #274 kirkspencer

It annoys and frightens me when I find myself in agreement with the wingnut/moonbat convergence.

But the simple deal is that there has been a lot of words sent to the administration asking for a simple yes or no to what should be a simple question:

Can the president assassinate US citizens on US soil? Can the president order the death of a US citizen without trial even if he or she is on US soil?

Because we already know that it can be done off US soil. For some of us that’s too far, but it’s where we are right now.

Can you tell me the difference between a drone strike on a US born terrorist during an attack on US soil and a cannon barrage on the Army of Northern Virginia at Gettysburg? Other than that Lincoln didn’t have drones, because he sure as hell would’ve used them if he did?

289 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:55:11pm

re: #18 FemNaziBitch

I can’t recommend it enough —direct link. I also Paged it.

Really good perspective. It also shows how people still are in the Cold War mindset. It’s like a whole segment (white people) are stuck in 1945.

I just watched this all the way through. Fascinating and much enjoyed.

290 Targetpractice  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:55:41pm

re: #287 Kragar (Antichrist )

Except for being an attorney, a community organizer, President of the Harvard Law Review, etc, he was a complete slacker.

Come now, those aren’t real jobs, like actor or union president!

///

291 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:56:24pm

re: #271 austin_blue

I don’t disagree at all, but at least it was an honest response. What I find odd is that such an act, if performed by Jack Bauer on “24”, would have the RWNJ’s jumping up and down in their living rooms. But by him not saying “It’ll never during the Obama Presidency”, the same RWNJ’s insist that the big O will target them.

What an odd country we live in, these days…

Careful though, because that double standard works both ways. Plenty of moderates and liberals who were disgusted with 24 and the Bush administration abuses are here, now, turning a blind eye to the fucked up precedent Obama is setting simply because he’s Obama.

I voted for the man four times, two primaries and two general elections and am glad it’s him in the oval office and not either of his Republican opponents. However I still think what’s being done here is objectively wrong, indefensible, and can’t be contextualized by simply characterizing the opposition to it as Rand Paul, Glenn Greenwald and some wingnut / moonbat convergence.

In the end you’re either on the side that’s justifying extrajudicial assassination of US citizens, or you aren’t.

292 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:56:40pm

re: #288 aagcobb

Can you tell me the difference between a drone strike on a US born terrorist during an attack on US soil and a cannon barrage on the Army of Northern Virginia at Gettysburg? Other than that Lincoln didn’t have drones, because he sure as hell would’ve used them if he did?

Terrorism is a tad different than a civil war.

293 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:57:44pm

So if a sniper takes out a hostage taker or let’s see a domestic terrorist would somehow be more ethical than using a drone.

294 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:58:26pm

re: #292 Varek Raith

Terrorism is a tad different than a civil war.

I think if you are in the line of fire of a terrorist attack, the subtle distinction between that and a civil war may elude you.

295 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:58:55pm

re: #291 goddamnedfrank

Careful though, because that double standard works both ways. Plenty of moderates and liberals who were disgusted with 24 and the Bush administration abuses are here, now, turning a blind eye to the fucked up precedent Obama is setting simply because he’s Obama.

I voted for the man four times, two primaries and two general elections and am glad it’s him in the oval office and not either of his Republican opponents. However I still think what’s being done here is objectively wrong, indefensible, and can’t be contextualized by simply characterizing the opposition to it as Rand Paul, Glenn Greenwald and some wingnut / moonbat convergence.

In the end you’re either on the side that’s justifying extrajudicial assassination of US citizens, or you aren’t.

Not happy that our legal concepts haven’t kept pace with the times, but I’m not impressed by new technology. If you can order a sniper round, you can order a hellfire. Dead is dead.

296 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 5:59:53pm

re: #288 aagcobb

Can you tell me the difference between a drone strike on a US born terrorist during an attack on US soil and a cannon barrage on the Army of Northern Virginia at Gettysburg? Other than that Lincoln didn’t have drones, because he sure as hell would’ve used them if he did?

“during an attack” makes the question a bit too easy. What has people concerned is the idea of the kill list being applied to people who are targeted when they are not in the middle of executing a terrorist operation.

In fact, there is no point to a kill list if it is limited only to use on people while they are actively engaged in attacks on US interests.

297 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:01:37pm

Fox News contributor: Obama has ‘profound sadness’ because Chavez was ‘his comrade’

Fox News contributor Keith Ablow claimed Wednesday that the Obama administration was deeply mourning the death of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

Fox News Radio host Brian Kilmeade had noted the socialist leader caused troubles for the United States, but Ablow insisted that President Barack Obama wasn’t happy to see “his comrade” go.

“I’m sure in the White House right now there’s not any kind of glee over the departure of this man from the face of the planet,” Ablow said. “I think there’s probably some profound sadness.”

Kilmeade questioned Ablow, saying that Venezuela was in “shambles” because of the policies implemented by Chavez.

“Yeah, but we have a president who’s willing to have this country be in a shambles if it is necessary on the road to what he considers fairness and reparations of a sort,” Ablow replied.

298 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:02:07pm

re: #65 Vicious Babushka

GIANT DOOBIE OF DERP.

Schieffer is still an ass if he did make that comparison. Disagreeing with the NRA is one thing, but to go in with a Godwin is both not nice and not true.

299 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:02:10pm

re: #296 EPR-radar

“during an attack” makes the question a bit too easy. What has people concerned is the idea of the kill list being applied to people who are targeted when they are not in the middle of executing a terrorist operation.

In fact, there is no point to a kill list if it is limited only to use on people while they are actively engaged in attacks on US interests.

But hostile command and control can be assumed to be engaged in its level of hostile act at any time. If they don’t like keeping an eye on the heavens, they can surrender to the Hague.

300 Amory Blaine  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:02:25pm

So what, Boehner and Cantor are gonna wheel out their cots, snuggle up, dim the lights and pass around aquabuddha until R.P. exhausts himself?

301 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:03:38pm

re: #286 Decatur Deb

The local sheriff can decide to order the death of an American citizen on US soil.

No, he really can’t. If he were to put such an order into writing he’d be liable to be charged with murder under color of authority. He needs a court order or reviewable exigent circumstances to simply have a house or car searched. We aren’t talking about some hostage standoff here, we’re talking about targeting somebody because of who they are. A sheriff can order an arrest, and a person can be killed while resisting, but that’s worlds away from actually ordering a killing.

In the US up until now only the courts have had that power.

302 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:05:43pm

re: #293 Gus

So if a sniper takes out a hostage taker or let’s see a domestic terrorist would somehow be more ethical than using a drone.

Not really. But the former is less likely to inflict collateral damage since the sniper isn’t going to be using explosive rounds (unless he’s using a .50 cal)

303 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:06:03pm

Moronic convergence update:Former Rep. Dennis Kucinich stays in the public eye as Fox News contributor

304 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:06:28pm

re: #293 Gus

So if a sniper takes out a hostage taker or let’s see a domestic terrorist would somehow be more ethical than using a drone.

A sniper’s bullet is a tad different than a hellfire missile.

305 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:06:30pm

re: #291 goddamnedfrank

Careful though, because that double standard works both ways. Plenty of moderates and liberals who were disgusted with 24 and the Bush administration abuses are here, now, turning a blind eye to the fucked up precedent Obama is setting simply because he’s Obama.

I voted for the man four times, two primaries and two general elections and am glad it’s him in the oval office and not either of his Republican opponents. However I still think what’s being done here is objectively wrong, indefensible, and can’t be contextualized by simply characterizing the opposition to it as Rand Paul, Glenn Greenwald and some wingnut / moonbat convergence.

In the end you’re either on the side that’s justifying extrajudicial assassination of US citizens, or you aren’t.

I had no problem with killing that terrorist shithead in Yemen. I would obviously have a huge problem if there was such an action in the United States because we would have the option of using domestic forces to arrest the man. (Sidebar: I also had a huge problem when the ATF didn’t arrest David Koresh when he went to buy a pack of smokes at the local c-store outside of Waco instead of invading Mount Carmel.)

But I agree with Holder on his point. You can never say never. Ever. Like him, I can’t imagine a situation where it would be required, but you can never say never. Ever.

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

306 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:07:07pm

re: #299 Decatur Deb

But hostile command and control can be assumed to be engaged in its level of hostile act at any time. If they don’t like keeping an eye on the heavens, they can surrender to the Hague.

And a person or entity can be deemed to be hostile command and control based on the exclusive determination of US executive agencies, without any form of non-executive oversight at all.

Is the justification for this supposed to be somehow self-evident? Because I’m certainly not seeing it.

307 Gus  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:07:27pm

re: #304 Varek Raith

A sniper’s bullet is a tad different than a hellfire missile.

Well, I didn’t mean to use a Hellfire. :D I’m think future wise with micro drones.

308 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:07:46pm

re: #295 Decatur Deb

Not happy that our legal concepts haven’t kept pace with the times, but I’m not impressed by new technology. If you can order a sniper round, you can order a hellfire. Dead is dead.

I’m talking about extrajudicial assassination regardless of how it’s done. The precedent to simply order an assassination hasn’t existed until now. You can’t glibly divorce the person from the circumstances and pretend that any executive or law enforcement authority in the history of the country has had the power to order somebody be killed. There are circumstances where they can be killed while resisting arrest, but that’s not the same thing as a targeted, extrajudicial killing and it’s incredibly disingenuous to conflate the two.

309 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:08:13pm

re: #301 goddamnedfrank

No, he really can’t. If he were to put such an order into writing he’d be liable to be charged with murder under color of authority. He needs a court order or reviewable exigent circumstances to simply have a house or car searched. We aren’t talking about some hostage standoff here, we’re talking about targeting somebody because of who they are. A sheriff can order an arrest, and a person can be killed while resisting, but that’s worlds away from actually ordering a killing.

In the US up until now only the courts have had that power.

“Shoot to Kill” has a long and honored history.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

310 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:08:58pm

re: #305 austin_blue

I had no problem with killing that terrorist shithead in Yemen. I would obviously have a hugeproblem if there was such an action in the United States because we would have the option of using domestic forces to arrest the man. (Sidebar: I also had a huge problem when the ATF didn’t arrest David Koresh when he went to buy a pack of smokes at the local c-store outside of Waco instead of invading Mount Carmel.)

But I agree with Holder on his point. You can never say never. Ever. Like him, I can’t imagine a situation where it would be required, but you can never say never. Ever.

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

Good use of Shakespeare.

311 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:09:01pm

re: #307 Gus

Well, I didn’t mean to use a Hellfire. :D I’m think future wise with micro drones.

Oh…
:)

312 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:09:05pm

re: #304 Varek Raith

A sniper’s bullet is a tad different than a hellfire missile.

$5.00 vs $25,000.00. Dead is dead

313 Interesting Times  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:09:20pm

re: #307 Gus

Well, I didn’t mean to use a Hellfire. :D I’m think future wise with micro drones.

Killer robot bees! :D

314 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:10:22pm

re: #308 goddamnedfrank

I’m talking about extrajudicial assassination regardless of how it’s done. The precedent to simply order an assassination hasn’t existed until now. You can’t glibly divorce the person from the circumstances and pretend that any executive or law enforcement authority in the history of the country has had the power to order somebody be killed. There are circumstances where they can be killed while resisting arrest, but that’s not the same thing as a targeted, extrajudicial killing and it’s incredibly disingenuous to conflate the two.

“Extrajudicial” basically means we haven’t come up with paperwork to sign.

315 aagcobb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:10:44pm

re: #296 EPR-radar

“during an attack” makes the question a bit too easy. What has people concerned is the idea of the kill list being applied to people who are targeted when they are not in the middle of executing a terrorist operation.

In fact, there is no point to a kill list if it is limited only to use on people while they are actively engaged in attacks on US interests.

Well, I think that is an extraordinary circumstance allowing the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States. The scenario Holder presented involved terrorists acting within the United States in the aftermath of a catastrophic attack like 9/11. If they are located, is there a significant difference between dispatching a SWAT team to take them out rather than a drone?

316 Interesting Times  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:10:46pm

re: #312 Decatur Deb

$5.00 vs $25,000.00. Dead is dead

Sniper bullets, unless the shooter has lousy aim, tend to result in far less “collateral damage” :/

317 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:11:11pm

re: #316 Interesting Times

Sniper bullets, unless the shooter has lousy aim, tend to result in far less “collateral damage” :/

I have nuclear bullets…

318 AlexRogan  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:12:38pm

re: #303 Killgore Trout

Moronic convergence update:Former Rep. Dennis Kucinich stays in the public eye as Fox News contributor

OFN.

Try again.

319 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:12:45pm

re: #316 Interesting Times

Sniper bullets, unless the shooter has lousy aim, tend to result in far less “collateral damage” :/

Which is why Holder said he couldn’t imagine the scenario. That, the cost, and the bad press is what keeps us safe from our government.

320 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:13:14pm

re: #312 Decatur Deb

$5.00 vs $25,000.00. Dead is dead

$5? Again, only if it was a .50 cal would a single round cost that much. Even ultra-accurate .30 cal rounds tend to cost 1/5-1/2 of that.

321 majii  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:13:41pm

I’m a retired high school social studies teacher, and I can say with complete confidence that Glenn Beck is full of shit. He has no idea what goes on in any classroom in any public school in this country. There is so much packed into the curriculum for every course that MUST be covered in a certain number of weeks that it leaves little time for any teacher to “indoctrinate” any student. The dude couldn’t even complete the one comparative religion course he took in college, and the nuts that watch/listen to his bullshit think he is qualified to speak about a profession in which he has no degree, no experience, and no expertise? It’s no riddle for me to understand why the type of people who listen to shysters like Beck, Limbaugh, Fischer, and others like them, are so confused and filled with the fear that their way of life is coming to an end and the government is out to “get” them. What I do know is that I’m not letting down my guard because there are a whole lot of folks here in GA who believe every word he and his fellow miscreants utter. If they think that because I’m a democrat and a liberal that I have nothing to stop them if they suddenly decide to jump in my direction, that could be the biggest mistake they’ll ever make in their lives.

322 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:15:16pm

re: #315 aagcobb

Well, I think that is an extraordinary circumstance allowing the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States. The scenario Holder presented involved terrorists acting within the United States in the aftermath of a catastrophic attack like 9/11. If they are located, is there a significant difference between dispatching a SWAT team to take them out rather than a drone?

Drones exist to save ‘good guy’ lives. If a siege wouldn’t work, the drone in some way would be more ethical than a very high risk SWAT team.

323 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:15:48pm

re: #315 aagcobb

Well, I think that is an extraordinary circumstance allowing the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States. The scenario Holder presented involved terrorists acting within the United States in the aftermath of a catastrophic attack like 9/11. If they are located, is there a significant difference between dispatching a SWAT team to take them out rather than a drone?

The scenario Holder presents is also too easy. In that hypothetical situation, anything would go, SWAT, drone, military forces. Whatever.

The question of the kill list comes down to the justification of assassination missions, such as in Yemen.

324 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:15:55pm

re: #305 austin_blue

I had no problem with killing that terrorist shithead in Yemen.

How hard would it have been to try and change the criteria under which citizenship can be revoked? The only reason Al-awlaki didn’t qualify is because Al-Quaeda isn’t a foreign state, that seems like a long overdue and easy fix to make.

We’ll never know because the Administration never tried. It may seem like some bullshit technicality to some, but I think it’s kind of fucked up that we’re sitting here cheering people who’ve completely ruled out any judicial oversight in what they’re doing. These are people, Holder, telling us to rely on their imaginations, who couldn’t even imagine a way to try and strip a known terrorist of his citizenship before assassinating him.

325 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:16:23pm

re: #320 Dark_Falcon

$5? Again, only if it was a .50 cal would a single round cost that much. Even ultra-accurate .30 cal rounds tend to cost 1/5-1/2 of that.

Accurized .50 is more than 5.00 these days. That’s what the
Barrett uses.

326 Amory Blaine  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:17:12pm

re: #321 majii

The level of contempt for public teachers in Wisconsin is disgusting.

327 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:22:32pm

re: #324 goddamnedfrank

How hard would it have been to try and change the criteria under which citizenship can be revoked? The only reason Al-awlaki didn’t qualify is because Al-Quaeda isn’t a foreign state, that seems like a long overdue and easy fix to make.

We’ll never know because the Administration never tried. It may seem like some bullshit technicality to some, but I think it’s kind of fucked up that we’re sitting here cheering people who’ve completely ruled out any judicial oversight in what they’re doing. These are people, Holder, telling us to rely on their imaginations, who couldn’t even imagine a way to try and strip a known terrorist of his citizenship before assassinating him.

Citizenship may be a distraction here. The notion of due process of law is not limited to citizens by the US constitution.

328 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:22:43pm

How much fucking grief did the Bush administration take over trying to sidestep the FISA courts on phone taps, and here I am now, watching people make excuses for and blithely applaud as the Obama administration claims the authority to kill citizens without any judicial involvement or oversight whatsoever.

329 Amory Blaine  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:23:19pm

RoJo: Education Was Better in 1830s, But Dems have “Dumbed-Down Our Population” to Get Votes

On February 22, U.S. Senator Ron Johnson spoke at an event called, “David Horowitz’s West Coast Retreat.” During his speech, Johnson said that the reason people vote Democratic is because liberals “control our schools” and have intentionally “dumbed down our population” as part of a strategy to control the populace:

I don’t know how many of you saw Dr. Benjamin Carson, but one of the points he made in his phenomenal speech was how, back in the 1800s, the tests they gave sixth graders upon graduation, most college graduates couldn’t pass that test anymore. We’ve purposely dumbed down our population. As a result of that, our population is very susceptible to demagoguery and that’s what you’re seeing. So what we’re facing now in this country is we’re facing a president that is basically a demagogue. That’s… that’s the problem.

Youtube Video
330 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:24:26pm

re: #315 aagcobb

Well, I think that is an extraordinary circumstance allowing the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States. The scenario Holder presented involved terrorists acting within the United States in the aftermath of a catastrophic attack like 9/11. If they are located, is there a significant difference between dispatching a SWAT team to take them out rather than a drone?

Not all armed drones are operated by the Department of Defense.

331 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:26:25pm

re: #327 EPR-radar

Citizenship may be a distraction here. The notion of due process of law is not limited to citizens by the US constitution.

Yet the US treats citizens outside its borders as citizens, ensuring their right to vote and demanding that they pay taxes on income above a certain threshold.

332 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:27:08pm

re: #327 EPR-radar

Citizenship may be a distraction here. The notion of due process of law is not limited to citizens by the US constitution.

Yup.re: #328 goddamnedfrank

How much fucking grief did the Bush administration take over trying to sidestep the FISA courts on phone taps, and here I am now, watching people make excuses for and blithely applaud as the Obama administration claims the authority to kill citizens without any judicial involvement or oversight whatsoever.

Who said there would be no oversight? The only credible US situation would involve active armed engagement. Check out RE Lee v. John Brown for a precedent.

333 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:28:08pm

re: #328 goddamnedfrank

How much fucking grief did the Bush administration take over trying to sidestep the FISA courts on phone taps, and here I am now, watching people make excuses for and blithely applaud as the Obama administration claims the authority to kill citizens without any judicial involvement or oversight whatsoever.

You’ve posted what that is before: “Go team, Go!” It’s classic partisanship.

334 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:28:53pm

re: #331 goddamnedfrank

Yet the US treats citizens outside its borders as citizens, ensuring their right to vote and demanding that they pay taxes on income above a certain threshold.

US citizens have rights and obligations that non-citizens do not.

However, I don’t think it self evident that US citizens should have materially different conditions for going on a kill list than non-citizens.

335 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:29:07pm

re: #333 Dark_Falcon

You’ve posted what that is before: “Go team, Go!” It’s classic partisanship.

Bull. I like it no more than I like the Patriot Acts.

336 Shvaughn  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:30:15pm

re: #330 Decatur Deb

Not all armed drones are operated by the Department of Defense.

I hear that DHS ordered 2,717 armed drones!

///

337 Amory Blaine  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:30:49pm

Eleventy billion drones.

338 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:32:32pm

re: #336 Shvaughn

I hear that DHS ordered 2,717 armed drones!

///

Border Patrol is part of DHS. They’re not armed, yet. I was referring to the CIA, which would have to bail the systems to a US LE operation to satisfy existing law.

339 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:33:42pm

re: #338 Decatur Deb

Border Patrol is part of DHS. They’re not armed, yet. I was referring to the CIA, which would have to bail the systems to a US LE operation to satisfy existing law.

*whoosh*

340 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:33:48pm

re: #331 goddamnedfrank

Yet the US treats citizens outside its borders as citizens, ensuring their right to vote and demanding that they pay taxes on income above a certain threshold.

We are talking about the extrajudicial killing of one American citizen who committed an act of war against the US by setting up the underwear bomber and another against an ally by trying to smuggle bombs into England in printer toner cartridges.

That’s it. If that’s as far as the precedent goes, I’m good. It’s not like you responded to the rest of my post, which included several caveats, all agreeing with your position. I think we should all calm down.

341 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:34:08pm

re: #335 Decatur Deb

Bull. I like it no more than I like the Patriot Acts.

He wasn’t talking about you. Your views are consistent and you go after people on both sides of the aisle when they break said rules. Frank’s beef is with people who largely ignore the fouls on their own faction but are quick to blow the whistle when another faction does the same thing.

342 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:36:24pm

re: #328 goddamnedfrank

How much fucking grief did the Bush administration take over trying to sidestep the FISA courts on phone taps, and here I am now, watching people make excuses for and blithely applaud as the Obama administration claims the authority to kill citizens without any judicial involvement or oversight whatsoever.

On a related note…
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

343 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:37:46pm

re: #328 goddamnedfrank

How much fucking grief did the Bush administration take over trying to sidestep the FISA courts on phone taps, and here I am now, watching people make excuses for and blithely applaud as the Obama administration claims the authority to kill citizens without any judicial involvement or oversight whatsoever.

In my view, the two biggest mistakes of Obama’s first term were 1) not going after the banks aggressively enough, and 2) being nearly useless on the civil liberties issues raised by the response to 9/11.

344 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:40:54pm

re: #342 Political Atheist

On a related note…
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

The shit all went south when we let the panic of the moment define a hideous crime as a “war”. The tools you use to fight a war are damned indiscriminate, brutal, and sloppy.

345 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:41:02pm

re: #332 Decatur Deb

re: #328 goddamnedfrank

Who said there would be no oversight?

The goddamned Justice Department said there would be no oversight.

Finally, the Department notes that under the circumstances described in this paper, there exists no appropriate judicial forum to evaluate these constitutional considerations. It is well-established that “[m]atters intimately related to foreign policy and national security are rarely proper subjects for judicial intervention,” Haig v. Agee, 453 U.S. 280, 292 (1981), because such matters “frequently turn on standards that defy judicial application,” or “involve the exercise of a discretion demonstrably committed to the executive or legislature,” Baker v. Carr, 369 U.S. 186,211 (1962). Were a court to intervene here, it might be required inappropriately to issue an ex ante command to the President and officials responsible for operations with respect to their specific tactical judgment to mount a potential lethal operation against a senior operational leader of al­ Qa’ida or its associated forces. And judicial enforcement of such orders would require the Court to supervise inherently predictive judgments by the President and his national security advisors as to when and how to use force against a member of an enemy force against which Congress has authorized the use of force.

346 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:46:12pm

re: #345 goddamnedfrank

The goddamned Justice Department said there would be no oversight.

Then create a “proper judicial forum”. It would be another FISA figleaf, for those who sleep better when the paperwork’s filed.

The Civil War showed that the courts will eventually get it right, years after the smoke has cleared.

347 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:47:11pm

re: #343 EPR-radar

In my view, the two biggest mistakes of Obama’s first term were 1) not going after the banks aggressively enough, and 2) being nearly useless on the civil liberties issues raised by the response to 9/11.

Given the scope of the financial crisis, Obama seems to have figured he could go after the banks without either making things worse or expending almost all of his political capital on trying to break up the ‘too big to fail’ banks. And he would have had to expend that capital on such an effort, don’t think he wouldn’t have. He might have still tried, but then it turned out that passing his health care law turned out to require a great deal more effort than originally planned.

348 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:49:13pm

re: #346 Decatur Deb

Then create a “proper judicial forum”. It would be another FISA figleaf, for those who sleep better when the paperwork’s filed.

The Civil War showed that the courts will eventually get it right, years after the smoke has cleared.

If FISA was a total fig leaf, the Bush II crew would not have moved to avoid its oversight.

Apparently, some of what they wanted to do wouldn’t pass muster with the tamest of courts.

349 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:55:01pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

Given the scope of the financial crisis, Obama seems to have figured he could go after the banks without either making things worse or expending almost all of his political capital on trying to break up the ‘too big to fail’ banks. And he would have had to expend that capital on such an effort, don’t think he wouldn’t have. He might have still tried, but then it turned out that passing his health care law turned out to require a great deal more effort than originally planned.

I agree that health care reform took more effort than expected. But on the banks, I think Obama pretty much got what he wanted, which was a bit of tinkering around the edges. Obama is cautious enough that he wouldn’t have gone after the banks unless events played out very differently (e.g., an alternate history where OWS became a persistent mass movement seen as legitimate across a broad part of the political spectrum).

It is also true that the banks own both parties, so it is difficult to see how anything real could have been accomplished there.

350 kirkspencer  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:57:03pm

re: #288 aagcobb

Can you tell me the difference between a drone strike on a US born terrorist during an attack on US soil and a cannon barrage on the Army of Northern Virginia at Gettysburg? Other than that Lincoln didn’t have drones, because he sure as hell would’ve used them if he did?

Nope, not too much difference. But can you tell me the difference between a drone strike on a US born terrorist during an attack on US soil and a drone strike on a US born terrorist during a planning meeting?

351 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 6:59:22pm

re: #298 Dark_Falcon

Schieffer is still an ass if he did make that comparison. Disagreeing with the NRA is one thing, but to go in with a Godwin is both not nice and not true.

It’s just funny that they are still seething over one Godwin derp at a time when all of wingnuttia was Full Godwin meltdown as demonstrated here.

352 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:00:25pm

re: #350 kirkspencer

Nope, not too much difference. But can you tell me the difference between a drone strike on a US born terrorist during an attack on US soil and a drone strike on a US born terrorist during a planning meeting?

The strategic decapitation strike would potentially save more innocent lives than the tactical hit on the grunt in the field.

353 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:04:57pm

re: #352 Decatur Deb

The strategic decapitation strike would potentially save more innocent lives than the tactical hit on the grunt in the field.

Doesn’t this come down to might makes right in its purest form? After all, Saddam Hussein could have used this exact justification to order an attack on any White House meeting during the early part of Bush’s first term.

Had Hussein had the resources to make the hit, how would you justify condemning it?

354 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:07:48pm

re: #353 EPR-radar

Doesn’t this come down to might makes right in its purest form? After all, Saddam Hussein could have used this exact justification to order an attack on any White House meeting during the early part of Bush’s first term.

Had Hussein had the resources to make the hit, how would you justify condemning it?

I would have no trouble justifying it, once we had engaged him militarily. The enemy gets to hit back. The more disturbing development is our rather recent love affair with preemptive war.

355 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:09:47pm

re: #354 Decatur Deb

I would have no trouble justifying it, once we had engaged him militarily. The enemy gets to hit back. The more disturbing development is our rather recent love affair with preemptive war.

That is why I deliberately specified the early part of Bush’s first term. Assassinating Bush could be seen as a rational attempt to preserve Iraqi lives in the face of a threat posed by a war mongering US president.

356 Mich-again  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:10:34pm

The GOP is at war with science, excluding of course when science can help them convict a criminal and sentence them to death. Then they like science.

They treat scientists like Tina Turner treated the little man in Beyond the Thunderdome.

357 Mich-again  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:13:22pm

Rand Paul is so dead set against the use of Drones against domestic terrorists because his gun nut peeps are openly preparing to be domestic terrorists. How many times have they said their 2nd Amendment rights are about “fighting tyranny”. That’s their code phrase for waging a revolution.

358 Achilles Tang  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:14:08pm

re: #350 kirkspencer

Nope, not too much difference. But can you tell me the difference between a drone strike on a US born terrorist during an attack on US soil and a drone strike on a US born terrorist during a planning meeting?

I really don’t understand this domestic drone stuff. The reason we use drones overseas is because we can’t get there any other way. I’m sure Hollywood can come up with a standoff type of domestic terrorist situation when that could conceivably be called for, but so what?

359 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:15:49pm

re: #355 EPR-radar

That is why I deliberately specified the early part of Bush’s first term. Assassinating Bush could be seen as a rational attempt to preserve Iraqi lives in the face of a threat posed by a war mongering US president.

IIRC, we were engaged militarily before the Bush II inauguration, enforcing the no-fly zone. What we are failing to grasp is that the “Global” part of the GWOT and earlier actions has eroded national sovereignty to the point that the legal constructs don’t describe reality. We haven’t made much effort to develop new ones.

360 kirkspencer  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:16:07pm

re: #352 Decatur Deb

The strategic decapitation strike would potentially save more innocent lives than the tactical hit on the grunt in the field.

Yeah, I hear this argument a lot. It’s rather fallacious when you dig into it. It’s the ‘pre-emptive strike’ argument. “I’m telling you he’s bad, he’s dangerous, and we have to hit him before he can hit us.”

The essence of the argument is that the prosecution team can take a secret complaint to the president who can then convict and grant a sentence of capital punishment.

Examine this more fully. Ponder, then, your least favorite politician and picture him or her in the presidency with this as established fact.

What are the checks and balances? What oversight, what review exists so that at a minimum if the president overuses it he can be impeached?

Consider it in light of the civil rights movement. If this were the interpretation existing then, would Dr. Martin Luther King have lasted as long as he did? Would any of the leaders that the FBI claimed as communist leaders working to overthrow the US have survived to be, say, the congressmen they are today?

I do not see checks and balances. I do not see restrictions. I see an authority that is being given, with no strings, and too many people who I do not trust with those strings.

361 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:16:24pm

re: #358 Achilles Tang

I really don’t understand this domestic drone stuff. The reason we use drones overseas is because we can’t get there any other way. I’m sure Hollywood can come up with a standoff type of domestic terrorist situation when that could conceivably be called for, but so what?

Eric Holder and I agree with you.

362 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:16:24pm

re: #356 Mich-again

The GOP is at war with science, excluding of course when science can help them convict a criminal and sentence them to death. Then they like science.

They treat scientists like Tina Turner treated the little man in Beyond the Thunderdome.

Then the GOP better hope that warfare never really gets waged with biological agents —- their anti-evolution dogma is a big problem for all of the life sciences.

363 kirkspencer  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:17:34pm

re: #358 Achilles Tang

I really don’t understand this domestic drone stuff. The reason we use drones overseas is because we can’t get there any other way. I’m sure Hollywood can come up with a standoff type of domestic terrorist situation when that could conceivably be called for, but so what?

my sole reason for using the drone was to keep it more or less apples to apples. Basically, the same scenario without the “middle of an attack” caveat.

364 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:19:07pm

re: #359 Decatur Deb

IIRC, we were engaged militarily before the Bush II inauguration, enforcing the no-fly zone. What we are failing to grasp is that the “Global” part of the GWOT and earlier actions has eroded national sovereignty to the point that the legal constructs don’t describe reality. We haven’t made much effort to develop new ones.

If national sovereignty has eroded, then it seems international authorities would need to step in. Wouldn’t that be another fine mess.

365 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:21:16pm

re: #360 kirkspencer

Yeah, I hear this argument a lot. It’s rather fallacious when you dig into it. It’s the ‘pre-emptive strike’ argument. “I’m telling you he’s bad, he’s dangerous, and we have to hit him before he can hit us.”

The essence of the argument is that the prosecution team can take a secret complaint to the president who can then convict and grant a sentence of capital punishment.

Examine this more fully. Ponder, then, your least favorite politician and picture him or her in the presidency with this as established fact.

What are the checks and balances? What oversight, what review exists so that at a minimum if the president overuses it he can be impeached?

Consider it in light of the civil rights movement. If this were the interpretation existing then, would Dr. Martin Luther King have lasted as long as he did? Would any of the leaders that the FBI claimed as communist leaders working to overthrow the US have survived to be, say, the congressmen they are today?

I do not see checks and balances. I do not see restrictions. I see an authority that is being given, with no strings, and too many people who I do not trust with those strings.

We both dislike it, but slam into the clash between citizens’ need for judicial transparency, and the warfighters’ need for security. In the heat of ongoing action, the fighters’ needs are usually given precedence.

Note the planning session I’m blase about would be the real situation we are in—these people have hit us and are avowed to hit us again.

366 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:23:43pm

“Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster.” - William Tecumseh Sherman

He was right then and he is still right today.

367 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:25:18pm

re: #366 Kragar (Antichrist )

“Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster.” - William Tecumseh Sherman

He was right then and he is still right today.

Which is why the ‘perpetual war’ model we have adopted since 9/11 is such a problem. War is hell, so a perpetual war is a perpetual hell.

368 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:25:49pm

re: #364 EPR-radar

If national sovereignty has eroded, then it seems international authorities would need to step in. Wouldn’t that be another fine mess.

Despite everything we claim, we and any coalition we can cobble together are the “international authorities”. God bless the Republic of the Marshall Islands.

(Grew up in the era of Doug Hammerskold and the United Nations Korean Command—the Good Guys.)

369 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:27:11pm

re: #368 Decatur Deb

Despite everything we claim, we and any coalition we can cobble together are the “international authorities”. God bless the Republic of the Marshall Islands.

(Grew up in the era of Doug Hammerskold and the United Nations Korean Command—the Good Guys.)

To belabor the obvious —- this comes down to ‘might makes right’ version 2.0.

370 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:29:06pm

re: #369 EPR-radar

To belabor the obvious —- this comes down to ‘might makes right’ version 2.0.

It’s more that “might makes right inconsequential”. If we have any dignity, we won’t whine when that bites us in the ass.

371 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:31:42pm

re: #370 Decatur Deb

It’s more that “might makes right inconsequential”. If we have any dignity, we won’t whine when that bites us in the ass.

I still remember how any mention of the concept that 9/11 bore any relation to past US activities (i.e., ‘blowback’) would make the neo-cons go ballistic.

“They hate us for our freedoms” was the neo-con party line for years. What a farce.

372 Achilles Tang  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:34:19pm

re: #360 kirkspencer

I do not see checks and balances. I do not see restrictions. I see an authority that is being given, with no strings, and too many people who I do not trust with those strings.

Sounds like a politician of the “other” party.

373 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:35:54pm

re: #371 EPR-radar

I still remember how any mention of the concept that 9/11 bore any relation to past US activities (i.e., ‘blowback’) would make the neo-cons go ballistic.

“They hate us for our freedoms” was the neo-con party line for years. What a farce.

Everything pretty much blows back from everything. Perhaps our biggest international mistake was screwing around with Iran and other national liberation movements in the 50s. Domestically, the difference between our society and Canada’s looks like slavery.

374 kirkspencer  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:38:16pm

re: #365 Decatur Deb

We both dislike it, but slam into the clash between citizens’ need for judicial transparency, and the warfighters’ need for security. In the heat of ongoing action, the fighters’ needs are usually given precedence.

Note the planning session I’m blase about would be the real situation we are in—these people have hit us and are avowed to hit us again.

“In the heat of ongoing action” is the important point. There is rarely a ticking bomb, there is rarely an immediate assault where a pinpoint strike will disable and disengage.

And I’m not blase about the planning session. Why, if it is a planning session here on US soil, can we not raid and capture?

The whole smacks of the same reasons given for approving torture “in some circumstances”. It smacks of what we used to exclaim at as the standard practice of the bad guys - THEY were the ones who made people disappear in the middle of the night, THEY were the ones who tortured, THEY were the ones who ignored process and went to assassination.

I know we do it, we have done it, and we will continue to do it. But I’d like a bright line about doing it in the US to US citizens in other than, well, “unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.” (ie, same rule as suspensionthe privilige of writ of habeas corpus, and for pretty much the same underlying principles.)

375 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:40:34pm

re: #373 Decatur Deb

Everything pretty much blows back from everything. Perhaps our biggest international mistake was screwing around with Iran and other national liberation movements in the 50s. Domestically, the difference between our society and Canada’s looks like slavery.

Well, we had to screw around with the national liberation movements post WWII. After all, the oppressors they were trying to overthrow were often US interests.

376 dragonath  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:41:51pm

re: #373 Decatur Deb

That reminds me, I saw a item earlier about Condolezza Rice overruling Cheney on a planned hit on a Syrian nuclear site. Can you imagine? It would make Dulles look like a model of moderation.

377 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:42:00pm

re: #374 kirkspencer

“In the heat of ongoing action” is the important point. There is rarely a ticking bomb, there is rarely an immediate assault where a pinpoint strike will disable and disengage.

And I’m not blase about the planning session. Why, if it is a planning session here on US soil, can we not raid and capture?

The whole smacks of the same reasons given for approving torture “in some circumstances”. It smacks of what we used to exclaim at as the standard practice of the bad guys - THEY were the ones who made people disappear in the middle of the night, THEY were the ones who tortured, THEY were the ones who ignored process and went to assassination.

I know we do it, we have done it, and we will continue to do it. But I’d like a bright line about doing it in the US to US citizens in other than, well, “unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.” (ie, same rule as suspensionthe privilige of writ of habeas corpus, and for pretty much the same underlying principles.)

Our discussion is going cattywumpus somewhere. The notional ‘planning session’ I spoke of would be one of the real sessions going on outside the reach of our law. On our soil, a drone strike would be absurd. We have lots of less destructive options.

378 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:45:49pm

re: #375 EPR-radar

Well, we had to screw around with the national liberation movements post WWII. After all, the oppressors they were trying to overthrow were often US interests.

We used a simpleminded vision of a monolithic communism, one that couldn’t see that Uncle Ho was more interested in running his own turf than running a collective farm. Hell, half the time they weren’t especially our own interests, just thwarting ‘Them’.

379 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:48:10pm

re: #374 kirkspencer

…

I know we do it, we have done it, and we will continue to do it. But I’d like a bright line about doing it in the US to US citizens in other than, well, “unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.” (ie, same rule as suspensionthe privilige of writ of habeas corpus, and for pretty much the same underlying principles.)

That brings an interesting thought to mind —- perhaps the question of what can be done in the US can be made something like “anything goes, if circumstances are bad enough that habeas corpus can legally be suspended”. At least there should be some case law on what it takes to suspend habeas corpus.

380 kirkspencer  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:48:15pm

re: #377 Decatur Deb

Our discussion is going cattywumpus somewhere. The notional ‘planning session’ I spoke of would be one of the real sessions going on outside the reach of our law. On our soil, a drone strike would be absurd. We have lots of less destructive options.

My entire discussion - spun off the start where I said I find myself in appalling agreement with the wingnut-moonbat intersection - has been domestic.

I have issues with it overseas, but it’s a much more difficult discussion. It’s difficult for me because at this point in time I have no confidence there’s a line regarding domestic use of assassination (another possible cattywumpus point.) It seems silly to exclude drones if that leaves other methods - easier methods within the US - open. So that’s the bright line I find myself asking for.

I want to know that at least the same rule for excluding suspension of habeas corpus applies to domestic assassination, and preferably that there is a means of review or oversight in a branch not beholden to the administration. I want a check, a balance, and a place I can trust to stand for domestic use. Then I’ll look at other issues.

381 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:49:18pm

re: #367 EPR-radar

Which is why the ‘perpetual war’ model we have adopted since 9/11 is such a problem. War is hell, so a perpetual war is a perpetual hell.

The thing is our options are rather limited. The forces of Radical Islam are not willing to make any kind of peace with us, and won’t be willing to do so for the foreseeable future no matter what course we adopt. So we can’t make peace, but neither can we actually destroy our enemies without adopting scorched earth tactics that the US profoundly does not wish to employ and that would get us seen (with justice) as monsters were we to do so.

So, no peace and no victory, which means the only thing we can do is hope to keep Radical Islam throttled back to a minimum, and that going to mean occasional interventions and raids, what the Israelis now call “mowing the grass”. It’s the exact opposite of decisive battle, but its all we’ve got for the time being.

382 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:53:29pm

re: #380 kirkspencer

My entire discussion - spun off the start where I said I find myself in appalling agreement with the wingnut-moonbat intersection - has been domestic.

I have issues with it overseas, but it’s a much more difficult discussion. It’s difficult for me because at this point in time I have no confidence there’s a line regarding domestic use of assassination (another possible cattywumpus point.) It seems silly to exclude drones if that leaves other methods - easier methods within the US - open. So that’s the bright line I find myself asking for.

I want to know that at least the same rule for excluding suspension of habeas corpus applies to domestic assassination, and preferably that there is a means of review or oversight in a branch not beholden to the administration. I want a check, a balance, and a place I can trust to stand for domestic use. Then I’ll look at other issues.

The problem with Holder’s statement is that he mixed the theoretical (“There’s really no historical legal precedent to stop it.”) with the real (“There’s no way I could imagine doing it.”). He walked into a questioner’s trap.

383 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:57:54pm

re: #381 Dark_Falcon

The thing is our options are rather limited. The forces of Radical Islam are not willing to make any kind of peace with us, and won’t be willing to do so for the foreseeable future no matter what course we adopt. So we can’t make peace, but neither can we actually destroy our enemies without adopting scorched earth tactics that the US profoundly does not wish to employ and that would get us seen (with justice) as monsters were we to do so.

So, no peace and no victory, which means the only thing we can do is hope to keep Radical Islam throttled back to a minimum, and that going to mean occasional interventions and raids, what the Israelis now call “mowing the grass”. It’s the exact opposite of decisive battle, but its all we’ve got for the time being.

Or we can fight a kulturkampf with cultural tools. Sex, drugs, rock, booze, education, corruption, smart propaganda, and inter-generational strife.

384 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 7:58:39pm

re: #381 Dark_Falcon

The thing is our options are rather limited. The forces of Radical Islam are not willing to make any kind of peace with us, and won’t be willing to do so for the foreseeable future no matter what course we adopt. So we can’t make peace, but neither can we actually destroy our enemies without adopting scorched earth tactics that the US profoundly does not wish to employ and that would get us seen (with justice) as monsters were we to do so.

So, no peace and no victory, which means the only thing we can do is hope to keep Radical Islam throttled back to a minimum, and that going to mean occasional interventions and raids, what the Israelis now call “mowing the grass”. It’s the exact opposite of decisive battle, but its all we’ve got for the time being.

I basically agree, but there is one point I’d like to make. Radical Islam despises western values, but that alone would not make them a mortal enemy. What makes them our enemy is our support for their enemies in the Islamic world (e.g., the Saudi royals), which ultimately is based on the oil situation.

So peace (i.e., mutual loathing, but no significant hostilities) with radical Islam is not a logical impossibility —- it is instead merely exceedingly difficult, in view of our dependence on mideast oil. The Arab spring demonstrated the depth of these difficulties.

385 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 8:00:49pm

re: #384 EPR-radar

I basically agree, but there is one point I’d like to make. Radical Islam despises western values, but that alone would not make them a mortal enemy. What makes them our enemy is our support for their enemies in the Islamic world (e.g., the Saudi royals), which ultimately is based on the oil situation.

So peace (i.e., mutual loathing, but no significant hostilities) with radical Islam is not a logical impossibility —- it is instead merely exceedingly difficult, in view of our dependence on mideast oil. The Arab spring demonstrated the depth of these difficulties.

Good news is that we’re not at war with the Islamic world, just their evangelical teapartiers.

386 EPR-radar  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 8:02:15pm

re: #385 Decatur Deb

Good news is that we’re not at war with the Islamic world, just their evangelical teapartiers.

Time for the cage match. Our religious loons vs. their religious loons.

387 kirkspencer  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 8:17:26pm

re: #382 Decatur Deb

The problem with Holder’s statement is that he mixed the theoretical (“There’s really no historical legal precedent to stop it.”) with the real (“There’s no way I could imagine doing it.”). He walked into a questioner’s trap.

The problem with Holder’s statement is that he kept mixing theoretical and real regardless of the question. He did that for Paul, he did that for Cruz, he did that for everyone who raised the question.

Look, let’s bring this to black and white. Here is the third of three letters Paul sent Brennan and Holder. Here is Holder’s response. (I’m not going to post the other two letters. They’re a barrage, of which some I agree and some I do not. However I will point out the response does not answer either of them at all.) Holder’s dance isn’t because he walked into a trap. It’s because he kept dancing around the centerpoint of the question.

Which annoys me given I’m basically an Obot.

388 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 8:17:56pm

re: #381 Dark_Falcon

The thing is our options are rather limited. The forces of Radical Islam are not willing to make any kind of peace with us, and won’t be willing to do so for the foreseeable future no matter what course we adopt. So we can’t make peace, but neither can we actually destroy our enemies without adopting scorched earth tactics that the US profoundly does not wish to employ and that would get us seen (with justice) as monsters were we to do so.

So, no peace and no victory, which means the only thing we can do is hope to keep Radical Islam throttled back to a minimum, and that going to mean occasional interventions and raids, what the Israelis now call “mowing the grass”. It’s the exact opposite of decisive battle, but its all we’ve got for the time being.

Well, as I’ve said before, declaring was on ‘Radical Islam’ gives them a cachet they do not deserve. It puts a basically small number of very loosely organized people on the same level as a nation. It obliges us to spend amounts of money all out of proportion to the threat.

I’m not saying that the Islamists are not a threat. They are. But they are not an existential threat the way the Soviet Union was. But all the Islamists can do is the occasional act of terror. The trick is not to let them succeed in terrorizing us.

Careful we should be. Acting like the terrorists are as dangerous as the Soviet Union, no, we should not.

389 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 8:22:25pm

re: #383 Decatur Deb

Or we can fight a kulturkampf with cultural tools. Sex, drugs, rock, booze, education, corruption, smart propaganda, and inter-generational strife.

No, we can’t. We’re too culturally divided for that to work and even then the radicals are willing to kill ‘rebellious youth’, which America never has been willing to do (so long as the youth were white, that is).

390 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 8:28:44pm

re: #387 kirkspencer

The problem with Holder’s statement is that he kept mixing theoretical and real regardless of the question. He did that for Paul, he did that for Cruz, he did that for everyone who raised the question.

Look, let’s bring this to black and white. Here is the third of three letters Paul sent Brennan and Holder. Here is Holder’s response. (I’m not going to post the other two letters. They’re a barrage, of which some I agree and some I do not. However I will point out the response does not answer either of them at all.) Holder’s dance isn’t because he walked into a trap. It’s because he kept dancing around the centerpoint of the question.

Which annoys me given I’m basically an Obot.

Took a while to read the pdfs. Rand wanted a blanket ‘no’. Holder insisted on room for an unlikely event or ‘unforseen unforseen’. If there is a gap in the critical law, we certainly have enough underemployed lawyers and legislators to set to it.

(Found the point at which we started taking past each other—I read your #350 scenario to be a complete contrast of ‘CONUS operation’ and ‘foreign planning’.)

391 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 8:29:37pm

re: #389 Dark_Falcon

No, we can’t. We’re too culturally divided for that to work and even then the radicals are willing to kill ‘rebellious youth’, which America never has been willing to do (so long as the youth were white, that is).

Kent State.

392 kirkspencer  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 8:32:14pm

re: #390 Decatur Deb

Took a while to read the pdfs. Rand wanted a blanket ‘no’. Holder insisted on room for an unlikely event or ‘unforseen unforseen’. If there is a gap in the critical law, we certainly have enough underemployed lawyers and legislators to set to it.

(Found the point at which we started taking past each other—I read your #350 scenario to be a complete contrast of ‘CONUS operation’ and ‘foreign planning’.)

think we still have a disagreement but it’s a much narrower one. And with that, bed. Tomorrow the doctor decides when surgery for the ankle occurs.

393 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 8:34:50pm

re: #389 Dark_Falcon

No, we can’t. We’re too culturally divided for that to work and even then the radicals are willing to kill ‘rebellious youth’, which America never has been willing to do (so long as the youth were white, that is).

We’re too ‘moral’ and gunpowder-bound to do that. It would be an Applied Anthropology approach, unacceptably academic. We get a little of it through foreign educational aid.

394 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 8:35:47pm

re: #392 kirkspencer

think we still have a disagreement but it’s a much narrower one. And with that, bed. Tomorrow the doctor decides when surgery for the ankle occurs.

Another Lizard ankle problem? Good luck.

395 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 9:06:00pm

re: #391 Decatur Deb

Kent State.

Kent State was a local and unplanned act by the National Guardsmen on the scene. It was not a planned act of policy.

396 Mich-again  Wed, Mar 6, 2013 9:18:55pm

re: #395 Dark_Falcon

Kent State was a local and unplanned act by the National Guardsmen on the scene. It was not a planned act of policy.

They came to the scene with loaded guns. Not exactly unplanned.

397 kirkspencer  Thu, Mar 7, 2013 5:19:20am

re: #394 Decatur Deb

Another Lizard ankle problem? Good luck.

yep, see avatar to understand. and thanks.

For anyone still dragging the late threads, even though I’ve been here for a while I find myself at a loss for proper lizard etiquette. update through the occasional thread hijack, or post a page and just update it as required?

398 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 7, 2013 5:27:46am

re: #397 kirkspencer

yep, see avatar to understand. and thanks.

For anyone still dragging the late threads, even though I’ve been here for a while I find myself at a loss for proper lizard etiquette. update through the occasional thread hijack, or post a page and just update it as required?

Ouch. There’s no great concern for etiquette, mostly a matter of convenience. Pages would disappear from the visible desktop before that thing will heal.


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