Friday Night Acoustic: Tommy Emmanuel, “Drivetime”

With bonus libertarian slap-fight
Music • Views: 23,087

YouTube

What, it’s Friday already? OK, so here’s a great piece of music from the amazing Tommy Emmanuel (if you can tear your eyes and ears away from the libertarian slap-fight currently under way between PandoDaily’s Paul Carr and First Look’s “senior policy analyst” Marcy Wheeler).

Hope you enjoy this song written by Tommy - the acoustic version is on his solo album “Only”. This song is dedicated to his first daughter, Amanda, who loves going on long drives.

You can buy the CD from his store: http://www.certifiedguitarplayer.com/only.aspx

And the album digitally on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/only-special-edition-remastered/id310478479

Recorded on: Canon 7D, Rode K2, Audio Technica 8033
Sound by: Brad Benge
Video by: Clara Rolls

Jump to bottom

627 comments
1 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:09:10pm

You seem to have a TE obsession.
Probably one of the better musical obsessions to have.

2 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:13:25pm

re: #1 b_sharp

He’s one of the best acoustic guitarists I’ve ever seen, and I don’t mean just technical facility, although he has plenty of that. He plays from the heart.

3 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:15:11pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

He’s just one of the best acoustic guitarists I’ve ever seen, and I don’t mean just technical facility, although he has plenty of that. He plays from the heart.

The best musicians always do.

4 Petero1818  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:18:52pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

He’s one of the best acoustic guitarists I’ve ever seen, and I don’t mean just technical facility, although he has plenty of that. He plays from the heart.

I agree. In fact of the many acoustic virtuosos (many you have featured on this site) I find that often melody takes a back seat to technical prowess. Not so with TE. Melody shines in the midst of technical prowess. It is a difficult balance for so many with those skills. He has it down.

5 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:19:22pm
6 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:22:18pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

He’s one of the best acoustic guitarists I’ve ever seen, and I don’t mean just technical facility, although he has plenty of that. He plays from the heart.

Before you brought my attention to TE I had never really heard of him. The same for Joe Bonamassa.

I now spend a lot of time listening to Joe, and have started listening to TE.

7 wrenchwench  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:23:37pm

Later, lizards.

8 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:24:05pm

What the fuck is this shit?

9 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:24:26pm
10 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:24:52pm

11 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:26:47pm

re: #10 Gus

[Embedded image]

It’s been three months and that post is still putrid to behold. I cannot adjust to its filth.

12 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:26:47pm

re: #10 Gus

Somebody’s going to be getting a call from the Secret Service. Or several someones, since he was stupid enough to link to their group.

13 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:29:48pm
14 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:31:04pm

re: #13 Gus

How did that person get by the Secret Service? (That is the polite version.)

15 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:33:52pm

Wow! I might be able to get me some Obamacare now!
New Health Fix Offers Subsidies for Insurance Policies Bought Outside Exchanges

Gov. John Kitzhaber of Oregon, a Democrat, had specifically asked the federal government to allow financial assistance, in the form of tax credits, for people buying insurance outside the state’s troubled exchange. Other states running their own exchanges, including Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts and Minnesota, have also experienced technical difficulties, creating political problems for their governors.

I was starting to give up hope of Oregon getting a working exchange.

16 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:33:59pm

re: #14 PhillyPretzel

How did that person get by the Secret Service? (That is the polite version.)

17 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:35:05pm

:’( My head:

Source of mind pain.

18 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:35:31pm

re: #14 PhillyPretzel

How did that person get by the Secret Service? (That is the polite version.)

If they don’t appear outwardly like a troublemaker, how is the Secret Service supposed to tell?

19 Aqua Obama  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:35:37pm

Image: BhktPH4IUAAXUUJ.jpg:large

20 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:36:11pm

uhhhh…..what?

The new policy applies to people who — because of “technical issues” — were stymied in trying to buy insurance through an online exchange and signed up for a health plan outside the marketplace. They will now be allowed to sign up for coverage in the exchange and get federal subsidies “on a retroactive basis,” going back to the date on which they first enrolled in a health plan outside the exchange.

What if I’ve had insurance for years? Do I have to sign up for a new policy?

21 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:40:19pm

re: #13 Gus

[Embedded content]

Obama’s Thought: “Oh brother, where do these loons get this stuff from?”

22 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:43:19pm

23 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:44:36pm

Now I’m reading about the Secret Service and its proud history. A proud history marred, of course, by the John F. Kennedy assassination, but then, their primary role was never intended as protection of the President. I’m sure you all knew this, but I learned that during President Clinton’s administration, lifetime Secret Service protection was removed from former United States Presidents. It was restored by a bill signed by President Obama last January.

24 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:51:22pm

25 thedopefishlives  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:52:31pm

re: #24 Gus

Don’t let that one loose, the wingnuts will be all over it.

26 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:55:15pm

Armed Detroit residents fight back against criminals; City sees three defensive gun uses in one week (VIDEO)

With Detroit towering at the top of the Forbes list of most dangerous cities for the fifth year in a row, some residents have had enough and are fighting back in a fierce way.

A local ABC affiliate reported that just last week during three separate incidents, armed citizens stood up against their assailants and refused to become just another statistic.

“I think it’s just a matter of the individual homeowners protecting themselves and finally catching up with the criminals and that enough is enough and they aren’t going to take it anymore,” said Detroit Police Deputy Chief Rodney Johnson.

Ironically, the news of good guys with guns made headlines just one month after Detroit Police Chief James Craig made a jaw-dropping statement that armed citizens serve as a “deterrent” against criminals and “good Americans with CPLs translates into crime reduction.”

And although Detroit still reigns as the country’s most dangerous city, the crime rate actually did decline last year, and Johnson admitted that over the last three to four years the number of applications for concealed pistol licenses has increased as well.

Nonetheless, the message sent by the three armed citizens last week rang loud and clear.

Honesty compels me to note that correlation is not causation, but I should also point out that if the violent crime rate is going down then at least the crease in legal concealed firearms is not doing harm.

27 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:56:20pm

re: #25 thedopefishlives

Don’t let that one loose, the wingnuts will be all over it.

Gus might put that one on Twitter for exactly that reason. It would be fun to watch Glenn Greenwald freak out over it.

28 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:58:57pm

29 PhillyPretzel  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 6:59:49pm

re: #28 Gus

Awww. That is so cute.

30 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:02:54pm
31 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:04:12pm

32 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:07:59pm
33 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:08:46pm

re: #31 Charles Johnson

Tough Drill Sergeant strut

34 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:10:41pm

White House Eyes Venezuela ‘Mediation’ As Lawmakers Call For Sanctions

The White House signaled Friday it would take no decisive action to end clashes in Venezuela between anti-government protesters and security forces that have killed 17 and injured more than 100.

Secretary of State John Kerry told reporters the U.S. is working with Colombia and other countries on a mediation strategy, but stopped short of heeding calls from Congress for targeted sanctions against Venezuelan officials.
…
Kerry’s comments came a day after a bipartisan group of senators introduced a resolution urging President Barack Obama to use his executive authority “to immediately impose targeted sanctions, including visa bans and asset freezes, against individuals planning, facilitating, or perpetrating gross human rights violations against peaceful demonstrators, journalists, and other members of civil society in Venezuela.”

Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chair Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) and Sens. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) and Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) co-sponsored the resolution, which calls for full accountability for human rights abuses by Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro’s administration.

35 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:11:04pm

re: #31 Charles Johnson

[Embedded image]

What the cat’s thinking: “I can lead a platoon of dogs better than any stupid human. I’m smart, I’m graceful, and darn it, all non-prey animals like me!”

36 Stanley Sea  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:12:42pm

Another night, another act(s) of attention desperation.

PLEASE

37 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:13:47pm

The cat is a test.

38 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:14:38pm

re: #37 Charles Johnson

The cat is a test.

So are the dogs. Cat passes.

39 Lidane  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:14:43pm
40 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:15:38pm

re: #33 Political Atheist

Tough Drill Sergeant strut

41 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:15:55pm

re: #38 Decatur Deb

So are the dogs. Cat passes.

No drugs no explosives.

42 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:19:21pm

re: #31 Charles Johnson

[Embedded image]

That’s all we get for supper?

43 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:20:18pm

44 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:20:21pm

re: #40 Gus

[Embedded image]

Love the hat.

45 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:23:10pm

Actually, German Shepherds often get along well with cats. The dogs that are serious trouble for cats are mostly terriers, which will often chase anything that runs,

46 Lidane  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:25:28pm
47 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:27:57pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

Actually, German Shepherds often get along well with cats. The dogs that are serious trouble for cats are mostly terriers, which will often chase anything that runs,

Muffin’s New German Shepherd Friend

48 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:29:55pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

Actually, German Shepherds often get along well with cats. The dogs that are serious trouble for cats are mostly terriers, which will often chase anything that runs,

It really depends on how intimate they are with cats growing up.

A neighbour used to throw cats into our shepherd’s pen in an attempt to get us fined for a noisy dog. That dog grew up hating cats and would kill them. On the other hand, the poodles, shelties, dachshund, and our several terrier crosses brought up with cats considered them buds.

49 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:31:49pm

re: #48 b_sharp

It really depends on how intimate they are with cats growing up.

A neighbour used to throw cats into our shepherd’s pen in an attempt to get us fined for a noisy dog. That dog grew up hating cats and would kill them. On the other hand, the poodles, shelties, dachshund, and our several terrier crosses brought up with cats considered them buds.

Sick neighbor. WTF.

51 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:32:40pm
52 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:35:44pm
53 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:36:01pm

re: #8 Gus

What the fuck is this shit?

That would be “What is begging for a visit from the Secret Service?”, Alex.

54 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:38:08pm

Cat Rescued From Underneath Ferry In Sweden

Youtube Video

55 Lidane  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:38:45pm

re: #24 Gus

[Embedded image]

ZOMG! Obama tyrant DRONEZ! Eleventy!

/Sirota

56 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:39:16pm

re: #53 chadu

That would be “What is begging for a visit from the Secret Service?”, Alex.

Intertubes makes him out to be an expat American living in Germany. Runs an “American” rwnj organization/web. Secret Service probably has some numbers at the polizei, though

57 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:39:21pm

re: #39 Lidane

That is a pop-sci Obama sammitch.

58 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:40:56pm

re: #56 Decatur Deb

Intertubes makes him out to be an expat American living in Germany. Runs an “American” rwnj organization/web. Secret Service probably has some numbers at the polizei, though

59 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:41:08pm

re: #56 Decatur Deb

“Hey, we got a fucktard threatening the President. Can you please extradite him back here?”

60 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:41:39pm

re: #49 Gus

Sick neighbor. WTF.

My brother and I used to practice our music quite loud during the day after school. This neighbour lived 2 houses down from us on one side, his mother 3 houses down on the other side. They did their best to get the police involved, but playing music during the day didn’t offend the anti-noise laws. On the other hand a dog barking late at night was against the bylaw.

A few times after they called the cops my brother and I hauled our equipment outside and cranked it up to 11. (I had 2 amps, 1 was patched into the other) Did our loudest version of Whole Lotta Love.

61 b.d.  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:44:54pm
62 Decatur Deb  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:45:00pm

Ol’ Everest is on the radar:

splcenter.org

63 Kragar  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:45:46pm

The infamous “Screaming Skull” prank

Youtube Video

64 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:45:58pm

Want this kind of dog.

65 Lidane  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:46:00pm
66 palomino  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:47:34pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

No surprise here: UN Security Council not to act against Russia’s intervention in Ukraine

Of course they won’t. Russia is a permanent Security Council member, so they have veto power over all SC resolutions.

I’m fairly sure Putin won’t support a resolution condemning his own country. There’s a better chance that Obama will sign a repeal of Obamacare.

67 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:48:27pm

re: #64 The War TARDIS

Want this kind of dog.

So it’s a wee Husky?

68 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:49:08pm

re: #67 chadu

Yep.

I want something I can pick up. :)

69 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:49:18pm

re: #65 Lidane

Poky Little Puppy? Izzat you?

en.wikipedia.org

70 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:50:23pm

re: #68 The War TARDIS

Yep.

I want something I can pick up. :)

SQUEE!

71 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:51:00pm
72 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:53:04pm

re: #71 Gus

With nukes, we can’t repeat the Crimean War, as much as anyone might want to. The best we can do is undermine Russia economically and cohesively.

73 Lidane  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:53:37pm

re: #69 chadu

Poky Little Puppy? Izzat you?

en.wikipedia.org

Haha. I had that book. Still do, I think. I’m pretty sure it’s at my mom’s house.

74 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:54:04pm

re: #68 The War TARDIS

Yep.

I want something I can pick up. :)

The problem is that it was first bred in Wasilla, AK, from whence comes Caribou Barbie.

75 b_sharp  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:54:52pm

re: #68 The War TARDIS

Yep.

I want something I can pick up. :)

I want one of these.

Newfie

76 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:56:00pm
77 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:56:18pm

re: #75 b_sharp

I’ll get that dog if I ever need Toddler Cavalry.

78 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 7:56:56pm

re: #72 The War TARDIS

With nukes, we can’t repeat the Crimean War, as much as anyone might want to. The best we can do is undermine Russia economically and cohesively.

Too bad. I had plans to make money getting the DoD to pay to have a new version of Dora built.

79 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:07:00pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

No surprise here: UN Security Council not to act against Russia’s intervention in Ukraine

Are the typewriters out of ink ribbons?

80 PlazaLIVE  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:09:03pm

Funny you mention Tommy Emmanuel. I’m sitting here with him right now, he and Martin Taylor just finished playing at my venue. Tommy played two night in a row 02/27-28. Fantastic show and he’s a hell of guy.

Cheers
Kirk Colvin, GM, Plaza LIVE Orlando

plazaliveorlando.com

81 Lidane  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:09:07pm

Youtube Video

82 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:09:50pm

This Ukraine thing reminds me of what a bunch of knuckleheads RWNJs are about foreign policy.

83 PlazaLIVE  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:10:25pm

Tommy Emmanuel at Plaza LIVE Tonight!!!!

84 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:10:35pm

re: #82 Gus

Eh, why is there an advertiser on here?

85 Kragar  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:10:38pm

re: #79 NJDhockeyfan

Are the typewriters out of ink ribbons?

The Council says Russia was wrong to invade.

Russia vetoes the statement.

Why bother?

86 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:11:07pm

Charles, we gotta live one! Get the spade!

87 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:11:17pm

re: #84 The War TARDIS

Eh, why is there an advertiser on here?

I don’t know.

88 PlazaLIVE  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:11:41pm

re: #2 Charles Johnson

Funny you mention Tommy Emmanuel. I’m sitting here with him right now, he and Martin Taylor just finished playing at my venue. Tommy played two night in a row 02/27-28. Fantastic show and he’s a hell of guy.

Cheers
Kirk Colvin, GM, Plaza LIVE Orlando

plazaliveorlando.com

89 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:12:24pm

Oy.

90 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:12:53pm

re: #85 Kragar

The Council says Russia was wrong to invade.

Russia vetoes the statement.

Why bother?

Can the EU and the US (plus any other countries who want to join) put sanctions on Russia outside of the UN?

91 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:13:33pm

re: #88 PlazaLIVE

Uh, what are you doing?

92 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:13:44pm

re: #85 Kragar

The Council says Russia was wrong to invade.

Russia vetoes the statement.

Why bother?

Why bother even having the meeting? Just some kind of silly ceremony, they could easily just skip the whole process.

93 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:14:44pm

re: #91 Gus

Uh, what are you doing?

Advertising!

94 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:15:15pm

re: #93 NJDhockeyfan

Advertising!

He’s going to get block-ed.

95 sagehen  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:15:28pm

re: #23 thedopefishlives

Now I’m reading about the Secret Service and its proud history. A proud history marred, of course, by the John F. Kennedy assassination, but then, their primary role was never intended as protection of the President. I’m sure you all knew this, but I learned that during President Clinton’s administration, lifetime Secret Service protection was removed from former United States Presidents. It was restored by a bill signed by President Obama last January.

The man does want to live long enough to meet his grandchildren…

96 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:16:29pm

From the sidebar of the UN article I linked to….
saharasamay.com

Is that Oliver Stone?

97 Kragar  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:17:12pm

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

Can the EU and the US (plus any other countries who want to join) put sanctions on Russia outside of the UN?

Yeah, they can make any other sanctions they want to, just not using a UN security council edict

98 sagehen  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:17:17pm

re: #31 Charles Johnson

[Embedded image]

Obedience school final exam. STAY!!

99 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:18:34pm

re: #97 Kragar

Yeah, they can make any other sanctions they want to, just not using a UN security council edict

Good. Better that way anyway since the UN is basically useless. Seriously. Russia is in the UNSC so this was silly.

100 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:20:23pm

re: #96 Killgore Trout

From the sidebar of the UN article I linked to….
saharasamay.com

Is that Oliver Stone?

Yup. He looks like he’s about to get a handful.

101 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:20:56pm

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

Can the EU and the US (plus any other countries who want to join) put sanctions on Russia outside of the UN?

Sanctions suddenly seem difficult for some reason. The floodgates are open on business with Iran and probably won’t be closed again. Obama dragged his feet on Ukraine sanctions, not even considering Venezuela sanctions. Sanctions against Russia seem very unlikely. Maybe it the post recession mentality, everybody wants to get back to business. Sanctions just slow down the money.

102 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:21:31pm

re: #100 NJDhockeyfan

Yup. He looks like he’s about to get a handful.

Selma Hayek is holding up nicely.

103 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:22:23pm

re: #97 Kragar

Yeah, they can make any other sanctions they want to, just not using a UN security council edict

Good. I’ll keep an eye out to see if one of those countries decides to take the lead.

104 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:23:23pm
105 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:23:56pm
106 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:24:33pm
107 Kragar  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:26:07pm

re: #103 NJDhockeyfan

Good. I’ll keep an eye out to see if one of those countries decides to take the lead.

Of course most of the EU is relying on gas from Russia right now, so don’t hold your breath there.

108 Stanley Sea  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:30:40pm

re: #88 PlazaLIVE

Awesome!

109 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:31:09pm

re: #107 Kragar

Of course most of the EU is relying on gas from Russia right now, so don’t hold your breath there.

Russia wouldn’t cut off gas to any of those countries. That’s money they would be losing.

110 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:31:40pm

IAN & SYLVIA ~ Four Strong Winds ~

Youtube Video

Where’s b_sharp? :D

111 Stanley Sea  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:31:41pm

re: #94 Gus

He’s going to get block-ed.

Chill out. Legit most likely.

Glass half full I always am.

112 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:32:37pm

re: #111 Stanley Sea

Chill out. Legit most likely.

Glass half full I always am.

Yeah. Doesn’t bother me.

113 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:33:48pm
114 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:34:36pm

re: #113 Gus

[Embedded content]

Haters gonna hate.

115 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:35:45pm

Neil Young - Four Strong Winds

Youtube Video

116 RadicalModerate  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:41:15pm

The part that I find most fascinating about the whole Russia / Ukraine deal? Less than a month ago the same people who are clamoring the loudest for military actions against Russia were fawning all over Putin saying how great he was.

In the sane world, most of us still see Putin as a ego-maniacal jackass.

117 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:43:07pm

Ian Tyson wrote Four Strong Winds. He was Ian in Ian and Sylvia. Later they made the Great Speckled Bird album which was produced by Todd Rundgren. Sylvia was friends with Suze Rotolo who passed away not to long ago. She was Bob Dylan’s girlfriend for a bit. Sylvia is apolitical and Suze was a Red Diaper baby. Sylvia also worked with bassist Bill Lee who is Spike Lees father.

118 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:44:31pm

re: #105 Gus

SNAFFLED for later.

119 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:53:21pm

Found an oddity in my family tree.

Everyone on my Dad’s dad side comes from Groningen province in the Netherlands. Expect one. Apparently, my Great-Great-Great Grandfather took his mother’s last name for some reason.

Where did the dad come from? Well, he was born there, but his dad wasn’t. He was born in….

Nienkirchen,Westfalen,Prussia,Germany.

Westfalen apparently is Westphalia. The Treaty of Westphalia Westphalia.

But, for the life of me, I can’t find Nienkirchen. Did my Grandfather do a spelling mistake?

120 Ian G.  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:57:59pm

Just thinking aloud here….when Russia sent it its forces to South Ossetia in 2008, Putin/Medvedev had to know they were dealing with a pretty weak sister in Georgia: small army, practically no air force, and yet Georgia still managed to land a few haymakers on Russia (I remember a Russian TU-22M shot down over Tbilisi as the “shit just got real” moment of that war for me).

Does Putin really want to challenge a far larger, and better equipped Ukrainian military? Yes, Kiev needs to tread lightly over what’s going down in Crimea, but Putin needs to not overplay his hand as well.

121 freetoken  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:58:15pm

re: #85 Kragar

The Council says Russia was wrong to invade.

Russia vetoes the statement.

Why bother?

The entire premise underlying international diplomacy and the UN is that talking is better than shooting.

It doesn’t matter much if Russia vetoes, as long as the parties keep in the talking “relationship.”

Again, the whole point of diplomacy (when not used as a disguise for espionage) is to keep parties talking.

122 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 8:58:57pm

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

Haters gonna hate.

‘Baters gonna ‘bate.

Yup, that’s spelled right, and I’m talking about the dudebros, not DF.

123 freetoken  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:00:41pm

re: #119 The War TARDIS

But, for the life of me, I can’t find Nienkirchen. Did my Grandfather do a spelling mistake?

Among other problems in genealogy, translation of proper names are almost always phonetic approximations.

And, since “Prussia” covered, historically, more than current Germany, what was once called “Nienkirchen” could be called something else in another language today.

124 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:02:40pm

re: #119 The War TARDIS

Research shows a possible misspelling. There is a Neunkirchen.

It is in the Arnsburg district of the North Rhine-Westphalia in Germany, in what was Westphalia.

But that is still 500 kms from where he and his wife are buried, on the coast of Groningen.

He lived from 1791-1861.

How did he get there? There is a story I am unaware of here.

125 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:02:46pm

re: #119 The War TARDIS

But, for the life of me, I can’t find Nienkirchen. Did my Grandfather do a spelling mistake?

Google Translate: “No Churches”?

There’s a story there…

126 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:02:59pm

So today people are saying Syria emboldened Putin. I don’t believe that’s true since Ukraine is very important to Russia especially the Black Sea Fleet bases in Crimea. That said many of these same people opposed the very military intervention that would have neutered Putin on Syria thus preventing him from becoming emboldened as they now claim.

127 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:03:48pm

re: #124 The War TARDIS

Research shows a possible misspelling. There is a Neunkirchen.

It is in the Arnsburg district of the North Rhine-Westphalia in Germany, in what was Westphalia.

But that is still 500 kms from where he and his wife are buried, on the coast of Groningen.

He lived from 1791-1861.

How did he get there? There is a story I am unaware of here.

“Nine Churches” (I think I liked “No Churches” better.)

But, yeah, STORY!

128 sagehen  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:03:53pm

re: #119 The War TARDIS

Found an oddity in my family tree.

Everyone on my Dad’s dad side comes from Groningen province in the Netherlands. Expect one. Apparently, my Great-Great-Great Grandfather took his mother’s last name for some reason.

Where did the dad come from? Well, he was born there, but his dad wasn’t. He was born in….

Nienkirchen,Westfalen,Prussia,Germany.

Westfalen apparently is Westphalia. The Treaty of Westphalia Westphalia.

But, for the life of me, I can’t find Nienkirchen. Did my Grandfather do a spelling mistake?

Does “nienkirchen” mean “no churches”? (sp.. is it possibly neinkirchen?)
If there’s no church, does that mean it’s so small it’s not even a town, just some random piece of land in the county? Or they were gypsies and he thinks they mostly wandered Westfalen?

129 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:04:56pm

re: #119 The War TARDIS

Found an oddity in my family tree.

Everyone on my Dad’s dad side comes from Groningen province in the Netherlands. Expect one. Apparently, my Great-Great-Great Grandfather took his mother’s last name for some reason.

Where did the dad come from? Well, he was born there, but his dad wasn’t. He was born in….

Nienkirchen,Westfalen,Prussia,Germany.

Westfalen apparently is Westphalia. The Treaty of Westphalia Westphalia.

But, for the life of me, I can’t find Nienkirchen. Did my Grandfather do a spelling mistake?

Neunkirchen is probably what you’re looking for. I know the one in Southern Germany. It was once a violin making hot spot. You might have to look back for old maps to find the one you’re looking for.

130 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:05:20pm
131 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:06:07pm

Fewer than a dozen House Republicans, a total that includes the top two leaders, have publicly said they would back the president on a military strike.

132 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:06:22pm

re: #128 sagehen

Does “nienkirchen” mean “no churches”? (sp.. is it possibly neinkirchen?)
If there’s no church, does that mean it’s so small it’s not even a town, just some random piece of land in the county? Or they were gypsies and he thinks they mostly wandered Westfalen?

That’s what I was thinking.

Or maybe a personal denouncement of the religious aspect of the various wars of the time.

133 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:07:30pm

If Syria emboldened Putin it’s because the GOP wanted to simply write a sternly worded letter to Assad.

134 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:07:52pm

re: #128 sagehen

Thinking that theory might hold water.

However, he still came from Westphalia. How did he move 400- 500 km in the days before rail? He was already there in in 1837. Way before rail. came to the area.

There’s a story here that hasn’t been told.

135 chadu  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:08:30pm

re: #131 Gus

Fewer than a dozen House Republicans, a total that includes the top two leaders, have publicly said they would back the president on a military strike.

So, no on Syria, yes on Russia?

Mission Control: Buckaroo, The White House wants to know is everything ok with the alien space craft from Planet 10 or should we just go ahead and destroy Russia?
Buckaroo Banzai: Tell him yes on one and no on two.
Mission Control: Which one was yes, go ahead and destroy Russia… or number 2?

136 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:09:09pm
137 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:10:16pm

re: #135 chadu

So, no on Syria, yes on Russia?

Once again it’s just “do the opposite of what Obama says.”

138 Bubblehead II  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:11:22pm

Night Lizards.

139 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:12:43pm

re: #126 Gus

So today people are saying Syria emboldened Putin. I don’t believe that’s true since Ukraine is very important to Russia especially the Black Sea Fleet bases in Crimea. That said many of these same people opposed the very military intervention that would have neutered Putin on Syria thus preventing him from becoming emboldened as they now claim.

I don’t think Syria had much to do with Putin’s decision for Crimea. Obama’s bungle in Syria (yes, it was botched) probably has an effect on a lot of different situations but Crimea probably would have happened anyways. We’ll have to see how this plays out. Maybe Obama is working some things behind the scenes but he doesn’t put much effort into explaining his foreign policy decisions and often appears disinterested in world affairs. I’m a little more stumped by his lack of interest in Venezuela. That’s a much easier situation but there doesn’t seem to be much traction from the White house for doing anything.

140 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:18:19pm

re: #139 Killgore Trout

I don’t think Syria had much to do with Putin’s decision for Crimea. Obama’s bungle in Syria (yes, it was botched) probably has an effect on a lot of different situations but Crimea probably would have happened anyways. We’ll have to see how this plays out. Maybe Obama is working some things behind the scenes but he doesn’t put much effort into explaining his foreign policy decisions and often appears disinterested in world affairs. I’m a little more stumped by his lack of interest in Venezuela. That’s a much easier situation but there doesn’t seem to be much traction from the White house for doing anything.

So working on a peace deal between Israel and Palestine is what? Helping create a solution to Iran nuclear weapons proliferation? Solidifying ties with Japan and Australia? South Korea?

141 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:19:28pm

Someone needs to point to me where in the US Constitution that the USA is supposed to figure out the world’s problems. I can’t seem to find it.

142 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:19:41pm

It’s frustrating looking at all the headlines on Obama’s statement. Lot’s of “warnings”, “tough talk”, “serious consequences”. CNN front page: Obama says back off, Putin

The press is more interested in the drama than reporting what’s actually going on.

143 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:19:55pm

re: #140 Gus

Also, the fact that doing anything with Venezuela will slide into the hands of the propagandists in Caracas. For the sake of the protesters, we absolutely, positively, should not do a thing.

144 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:20:40pm

New START treaty is nothing?

145 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:20:48pm

Libya was nothing?

146 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:21:02pm

Getting Osama bin Laden was nothing?

147 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:21:29pm

Haiti relief was nothing?

148 Kragar  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:24:52pm

re: #121 freetoken

The entire premise underlying international diplomacy and the UN is that talking is better than shooting.

It doesn’t matter much if Russia vetoes, as long as the parties keep in the talking “relationship.”

Again, the whole point of diplomacy (when not used as a disguise for espionage) is to keep parties talking.

I never said we shouldn’t be talking, I just said it shouldn’t be in a forum where any negotiations can be vetoed by Russia as part of the rules

149 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:25:18pm

re: #139 Killgore Trout

I don’t think Syria had much to do with Putin’s decision for Crimea. Obama’s bungle in Syria (yes, it was botched) probably has an effect on a lot of different situations but Crimea probably would have happened anyways. We’ll have to see how this plays out. Maybe Obama is working some things behind the scenes but he doesn’t put much effort into explaining his foreign policy decisions and often appears disinterested in world affairs. I’m a little more stumped by his lack of interest in Venezuela. That’s a much easier situation but there doesn’t seem to be much traction from the White house for doing anything.

Syria wasn’t botched. Obama’s brinksmanship got a verified destruction of the chemical weapons stockpiles and manufacturing facilities. He accomplished that without actually incurring or even risking a single US casualty.

Fact is the US public has almost zero appetite right now for another foreign military adventure. That explains Syria, that explains Venezuela and it explains why we aren’t going to lift a finger in Crimea / Ukraine. The vast majority of the population is simply worn out from the last decade plus in Iraq and Afghanistan. One of Obama’s greatest legacies will be winding down those conflicts without beginning any lasting commitments anywhere else.

150 The War TARDIS  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:25:35pm

re: #144 Gus

Unfortunately, Putin probably thinks of it as nothing.

Apparently, to him, treaties are pieces of paper.

151 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:27:01pm

Just in case you guys didn’t know better…

152 freetoken  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:27:13pm

Maybe we ought to invade the Montanhas de Chukotka.

Just in case we need a buffer zone to protect Alaska.

153 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:28:34pm

re: #140 Gus

So working on a peace deal between Israel and Palestine is what?

That’s a ritual waste of time every President goes through. Eventually one of them will get lucky and be there at the right time when a real peace deal gets done.

Helping create a solution to Iran nuclear weapons proliferation?

I don’t think that’s really what is happening. I think we’ve just given up trying to stop them from their nuclear ambitions (whatever they may be).re: #141 Gus

Someone needs to point to me where in the US Constitution that the USA is supposed to figure out the world’s problems. I can’t seem to find it.

Since WWII we have taken it on as an obligation. It hasn’t always worked out so great but we are a very rich nation with a large military. I can see a moral obligation to help. We could just sit around and enjoy our wealth and easy lifestyles while other people suffer. We should have helped stop the genocide in Rawanda. Maybe we should have tried harder in Mogadishu. We were right to step up in Serbia. We could just let people suffer whatever fate but it’s not unreasonable to see a moral obligation to try to help. Sometimes that requires military action.

154 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:32:25pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

I can see a moral obligation to help.

No, we have a moral obligation to not make things worse. Sometimes the two overlap, quite often they do not.

155 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:32:36pm

re: #151 NJDhockeyfan

Just in case you guys didn’t know better…

[Embedded content]

Well, there goes my vacation plans. Serious though, I’m Ukrainian on my mom’s side. I would love to go explore my heritage someday.

156 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:33:20pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

That’s a ritual waste of time every President goes through. Eventually one of them will get lucky and be there at the right time when a real peace deal gets done.

I don’t think that’s really what is happening. I think we’ve just given up trying to stop them from their nuclear ambitions (whatever they may be).

Since WWII we have taken it on as an obligation. It hasn’t always worked out so great but we are a very rich nation with a large military. I can see a moral obligation to help. We could just sit around and enjoy our wealth and easy lifestyles while other people suffer. We should have helped stop the genocide in Rawanda. Maybe we should have tried harder in Mogadishu. We were right to step up in Serbia. We could just let people suffer whatever fate but it’s not unreasonable to see a moral obligation to try to help. Sometimes that requires military action.

Wait. I thought Ukraine wanted to join the EU and not become a 51st state. Speaking of which. The USA is almost completely ignoring Pureto Rico which is in economic ruin. But hey, they’re Spanish people and not white folks like Ukrainians. So, back to Ukraine. They want to be in the EU. Kick out Yanko. They love the EU so much and are also part of Europe anyway that NATO is now sitting on their ass doing nothing about Russia while everyone expects the USA to do something about Russia “invading” Crimea while we ignore half the population of our own country with a sub-standard minimum wage while completely ignoring South America unless it involves this stupid Drug War.

157 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:34:48pm

Another spooky headline: Obama, Putin set for collision course again, this time over Ukraine

158 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:35:01pm

Ukraine is more important to Russia than the Ukraine’s importance to Murica.

159 freetoken  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:35:54pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

I can see a moral obligation to help.

And to that end I think we ought to explicitly not enable yet more rounds of centuries old ethnic and religious conflict, which we can accomplish by not reinforcing the validity of “ethnic” or “religious” claims.

The parties involved must see that their mutual interests lay in not killing each other. We can offer our good offices to facilitate these kind of negotiations.

160 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:36:03pm

re: #156 Gus

Puerto Rico is another great example of something we should be dealing with.

161 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:36:04pm

It’s their country. Let them take care of their own problems for once. We have a hard enough time getting things done in this hillbilly country as it is.

162 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:38:33pm

re: #148 Kragar

I never said we shouldn’t be talking, I just said it shouldn’t be in a forum where any negotiations can be vetoed by Russia as part of the rules

Yes and no. The General Assembly is the better venue for this kind of thing. Russia still vetoes, but the numbers against them are much greater. That’s what happens a lot with us running interference for Israel, forty one times our veto has been a foregone conclusion, but each time the exercise serves to alienate us just a little bit further.

163 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:39:08pm

Where the fuck is Germany, Poland, France, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom today? Where the fuck is NATO besides Tweeting some bullshit?

164 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:43:52pm

Do you think Ukrainians would join their army to fight for the USA?

165 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:44:16pm

Do you think South Koreans would join their army to fight for the USA?

166 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:48:19pm

Let me know when the Ukrainians would fight for the USA and freedom because if I remember correctly they collaborated with the Nazis during WWII.

167 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:49:46pm

re: #165 Gus

Do you think South Koreans would join their army to fight for the USA?

The South Koreans followed our drunk asses into Viet Nam, and earned a fearsome reputation there. They also participated on a much smaller scale in the Afghanistan War.

168 Gus  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:50:44pm

re: #167 goddamnedfrank

The South Koreans followed our drunk asses into Viet Nam, and earned a fearsome reputation there. They also participated on a much smaller scale in the Afghanistan War.

Yes. But I mean the USA. Not a proxy war. Fighting in Viet Nam and Afghanistan was not fighting for American soil.

169 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:52:16pm

re: #163 Gus

Where the fuck is Germany, Poland, France, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom today? Where the fuck is NATO besides Tweeting some bullshit?

Shameful. I remember when the West was strong and powerful. We helped millions of people escape tyrants and led them to freedom. Now it’s like we sit on the sidelines and watch.

170 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:53:46pm

re: #168 Gus

Yes. But I mean the USA. Not a proxy war. Fighint in Viet Nam and Afghanistan was not fighting for American soil.

I think the South Koreans would be even more inclined to fight for us on our own soil. They have mad honor.

171 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 9:56:15pm

re: #168 Gus

Yes. But I mean the USA. Not a proxy war. Fighting in Viet Nam and Afghanistan was not fighting for American soil.

I don’t think we will ever experience a war inside our borders. I can’t see how its possible for any country to successfully get in.

172 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 10:10:58pm
173 Weet  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 10:29:27pm
174 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 10:33:36pm
175 blueraven  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 10:45:49pm

re: #169 NJDhockeyfan

Shameful. I remember when the West was strong and powerful. We helped millions of people escape tyrants and led them to freedom. Now it’s like we sit on the sidelines and watch.

Maybe if Bush/Cheney hadn’t dragged us into an unnecessary war in Iraq, Americans wouldn’t be so war weary and we could blow up some new folks for you.

176 Weet  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 10:50:02pm
177 Official Lab Rat In Gay Radical Experiment  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 10:53:32pm

Alright, I think we all need some Bichon right about now.

178 freetoken  Fri, Feb 28, 2014 11:16:17pm

Russians!!

MP3 Audio

179 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 1:55:06am

re: #153 Killgore Trout

That’s a ritual waste of time every President goes through. Eventually one of them will get lucky and be there at the right time when a real peace deal gets done.

I don’t think that’s really what is happening. I think we’ve just given up trying to stop them from their nuclear ambitions (whatever they may be).

Since WWII we have taken it on as an obligation. It hasn’t always worked out so great but we are a very rich nation with a large military. I can see a moral obligation to help. We could just sit around and enjoy our wealth and easy lifestyles while other people suffer. We should have helped stop the genocide in Rawanda. Maybe we should have tried harder in Mogadishu. We were right to step up in Serbia. We could just let people suffer whatever fate but it’s not unreasonable to see a moral obligation to try to help. Sometimes that requires military action.

Our grandest effort to fulfill that ‘moral obligation’ was Viet Nam. Went really well.

180 freetoken  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 2:15:50am

More Russians!!

MP3 Audio

181 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 2:56:43am

re: #119 The War TARDIS

Could it be Neunkirchen?
Oh someone covered that already.

I have another idea. Neinkirchen = no church could mean he was not baptised or christened in a church, or that he was unchurched — not a member of a local church. I’m not sure how births were recorded in Germany back then, but in Sweden the local parish (of the Swedish Lutheran Church) took care of all vital records until the late 1800s. If a person were from another parish, it was recorded as such, and if someone were (rarely) not a Lutheran, that would also be recorded.

As for Nienkirchen, I have no ideas. But I have a similar puzzle on my mom’s side, which I think boils down to a child born out of wedlock. The father appears in different parishes before and after the birth, suggesting he never married the mother.

182 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:18:03am

Ukraine traitors turn out today…ethnic Russians no doubt, but still.

183 freetoken  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:24:24am

Because America can never get enough Je$u$:

‘Son of God’ Continues Jesus’ Evolution on Film

“Son of God” hits theaters nationwide today but had people talking long before.

“In just the last few weeks, about 500,000 tickets for “Son of God” have been purchased in advance - by churches, businesses and everyday citizens,” co-producer Mark Burnett told Fox News.

[…]

184 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:37:43am

Russia is moving fast on Crimea.

Kremlin alleges attack, accuses Ukraine’s new government of trying to ‘destabilize’ Crimea; RIA Novosti reports March 30 referendum

kyivpost.com

This exercise in “democracy”, the March 30 referendum, allows 3 “choices”: “to retain its current status as an autonomous republic within Ukraine, to become an independent state, or to become part of Russia.”

185 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:38:28am

re: #183 freetoken

Because America can never get enough Je$u$:

‘Son of God’ Continues Jesus’ Evolution on Film

Yeah, because Jesus would so have wanted to be a big Hollywood star. ///

186 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:43:13am

re: #184 Justanotherhuman

Russia is moving fast on Crimea.

Kremlin alleges attack, accuses Ukraine’s new government of trying to ‘destabilize’ Crimea; RIA Novosti reports March 30 referendum

kyivpost.com

This exercise in “democracy”, the March 30 referendum, allows 3 “choices”: “to retain its current status as an autonomous republic within Ukraine, to become an independent state, or to become part of Russia.”

How do you say “Anschluss” in Russian?

187 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:45:49am

re: #186 Dr Lizardo

How do you say “Anschluss” in Russian?

подключение

Meh.

188 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:46:54am

re: #183 freetoken

Because America can never get enough Je$u$:

‘Son of God’ Continues Jesus’ Evolution on Film

I don’t have a problem with it. If it’s a good movie it will do well, if not it will bomb at the box office. I’ll wait until its on TV to watch it though, I don’t like going to the movie theaters.

189 freetoken  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:49:09am

Yesterday I posted a link that estimated the price was going to be around $25k, clearly too low of a guess:

Copy of Mein Kampf signed by Hitler sells for $65,000

190 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:49:29am

re: #183 freetoken

Because America can never get enough Je$u$:

‘Son of God’ Continues Jesus’ Evolution on Film

Makes me think of the Son of God comic that ran in the National Lampoon back when. Jesus was portrayed as a superhero. That would make an interesting movie, and would offend a large number of people.

If I were incredibly rich, I’d bankroll it, just for shits and giggles.

191 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:50:28am

re: #188 NJDhockeyfan

I don’t have a problem with it. If it’s a good movie it will do well, if not it will bomb at the box office. I’ll wait until its on TV to watch it through, I don’t like going to the movie theaters.

It’s Mark Burnette, for crying out loud, of “Survivor” and such other TV schlock, the guy who almost single-handedly ruined night-time TV for me and made it as broken as daytime TV.

Can we revoke his citizenship and deport him back to Australia? : )

192 freetoken  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:51:03am

re: #190 wheat-dogghazi

They already made that movie.

The title was “Superman”.

It’s been remade several times.

193 freetoken  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:53:30am

It’s a complex world and frankly I can’t keep up with for whom I’m supposed to root, e.g.:

Turkey to close down ‘Gulen’ preparatory schools

Turkey’s parliament has passed a bill to shut down private preparatory schools, many of which are run by influential preacher Fethullah Gulen.

Mr Gulen is embroiled in a bitter feud with PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who has accused the US-based cleric of plotting against his government.

[…]

194 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:55:28am

re: #193 freetoken

It’s a complex world and frankly I can’t keep up with for whom I’m supposed to root, e.g.:

Turkey to close down ‘Gulen’ preparatory schools

Welcome to the 51-49 world. It’s the dynamic behind the US Congress, as well.

195 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:56:23am

Haha, Jesus wasn’t the inspiration for that movie. Roma Downey developed some lust for the lead actor.

“… when Roma saw Diogo Morgado, the beautiful Portuguese actor who plays Jesus on the screen, in Morocco, as we were shooting, Roma said, ‘Mark, this should be a big feature film, more than a TV show.’”

ontheredcarpet.com

196 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:00:24am

They obviously want Putin to do all the dirty work.

197 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:03:22am

re: #191 Justanotherhuman

It’s Mark Burnette, for crying out loud, of “Survivor” and such other TV schlock, the guy who almost single-handedly ruined night-time TV for me and made it as broken as daytime TV.

Can we revoke his citizenship and deport him back to Australia? : )

You know I never seen that show. Am I the only one in the country who didn’t watch it?

198 freetoken  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:05:26am

Let the good times roll:

A good year for the National Oil Fund

The Government Pension Fund Global, also called the Norwegian National Oil Fund, returned 15.9 percent in 2013, due principally to strong stock markets, the annual report shows.

Equity investments returned 26.3 percent, fixed-income investments produced a zero return, and real estate investments returned 11.8 percent. The return was 1.0 percentage point higher than on the benchmark indices the fund is measured against.

“The year’s results were driven by equity investments,” says Yngve Slyngstad,(photo) CEO of Norges Bank Investment Management, which manages the fund. “Despite various sources of uncertainty in the global economy, stock markets made broad gains in 2013.”

The fund’s market value grew by more than NOK 1𠂒00 billion during the year to NOK 5𠂐38 billion. The return for the year was NOK 692 billion, NOK 239 billion in new capital was transferred from the government, and a weaker krone increased the value of the fund in krone terms by NOK 291 billion.

[…]

The value of the fund is something like $167k for each person in Norway.

199 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:06:47am

re: #190 wheat-dogghazi

Makes me think of the Son of God comic that ran in the National Lampoon back when. Jesus was portrayed as a superhero. That would make an interesting movie, and would offend a large number of people.

If I were incredibly rich, I’d bankroll it, just for shits and giggles.

Why stop with just Jesus? Make it a whole team of religious leaders!

200 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:10:22am
201 freetoken  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:14:12am

In all the news this week, lost in the shuffle:

NYT Poll: 56% Back Gay Marriage

The shift in the opinion among self declared Republicans is noticeable, with a majority of the younger GOP members supporting gay marriage.

The AFA is more of a dinosaur than ever.

202 The War TARDIS  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:18:57am

re: #200 NJDhockeyfan

Rich, coming from Russia.

Putin seems to be an idiot.

203 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:19:41am

re: #200 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Russia says what?

LOLOLOLOL

204 William of Orange  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:20:05am

Hands up if you’ve seen a more bizarre news item like this.

* Two men
* One dead cow
* Three cars totaled.

Youtube Video

What? No hands?

205 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:24:23am

re: #202 The War TARDIS

Rich, coming from Russia.

Putin seems to be an idiot.

Does this give Putin a green light to roll on in so he can ‘save Ukraine’?

206 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:25:17am

re: #205 NJDhockeyfan

Does this give Putin a green light to roll on in so he can ‘save Ukraine’?

Green light from whom?

207 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:26:04am

re: #204 William of Orange

>Hands up if you’ve seen a more bizarre news item like this.

>* Two men
* One dead cow
* Three cars totaled.

[Embedded content]

What? No hands?

Those men were udderly depraved.

208 William of Orange  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:26:53am

Tooooo funny! GTA 5, Evel Knievel mode.

Youtube Video

209 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:30:18am

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

Those men were udderly depraved.

That joke is just too mooch.

210 A Mom Anon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:33:34am

re: #191 Justanotherhuman

He’s the one who did “The Bible” series for the History Channel or A&E or whatever it was. I think he and his wife are super duper religious. Which is weird when you think about Survivor and how that show brings out the worst in people.

211 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:37:25am

re: #192 freetoken

They already made that movie.

The title was “Superman”.

It’s been remade several times.

Touché, mon ami!

Kal El was a Juice, according to highly placed sources. The House of El, and all that. The movies don’t address that directly, nor his status as an undocumented immigrant, for that matter.

212 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:42:40am

re: #195 Justanotherhuman

Haha, Jesus wasn’t the inspiration for that movie. Roma Downey developed some lust for the lead actor.

“… when Roma saw Diogo Morgado, the beautiful Portuguese actor who plays Jesus on the screen, in Morocco, as we were shooting, Roma said, ‘Mark, this should be a big feature film, more than a TV show.’”

ontheredcarpet.com

Roma Downey of Touched by an Angel fame. I confess to watching that show with my ex. Somehow I managed not to go into diabetic shock from the treacly, feel-goodness of every single episode. Even Death was made into a nice young man (a la Brad Pitt) who always seemed reluctant to take souls away.

213 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:42:48am

Shit!

214 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:48:38am

re: #211 wheat-dogghazi

Touché, mon ami!

Kal El was a Juice, according to highly placed sources. The House of El, and all that. The movies don’t address that directly, nor his status as an undocumented immigrant, for that matter.

It’s a Tea Party agenda item, though. A more positive attitude is to be adopted to the job creator Lex Luthor. Superman’s continued opposition to this Prime Mover has caused him to merit the designation of Looter, and as such he is to be publicly executed via kryptonite and the entrance to Galt’s Gulch.

////

215 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:53:53am

re: #213 NJDhockeyfan

Do you think we should militarily intervene, by the way?

216 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:57:17am

re: #214 Dark_Falcon

It’s a Tea Party agenda item, though. A more positive attitude is to be adopted to the job creator Lex Luthor. Superman’s continued opposition to this Prime Mover has caused him to merit the designation of Looter, and as such he is to be publicly executed via kryptonite and the entrance to Galt’s Gulch.

////

Looter? He and Zod destroyed most of downtown Metropolis and Smallville. Super-vandal deserves a super-fine for destruction of property and untold human casualties, not to mention the long term health effects from all that dust and debris floating around in the air around Metropolis.
/

217 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:58:08am

re: #213 NJDhockeyfan

Shit!

[Embedded content]

Yeah, I don’t think this is simply about the Crimea anymore. Between the manpower and the firepower moved into place, I think they’ve got a bigger appetite.

218 Bubblehead II  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:58:11am

Oops!

Man used Google flaw to eavesdrop on calls to Secret Service

SEATTLE — An Edmonds man who recently exposed a flaw in Google Maps says he was questioned by the Secret Service after his latest stunt.

snip

He said he created fake Google Map listings using real information for the Secret Service field office in Washington DC and an FBI office in San Francisco. But instead of listing the real office numbers, he replaced them with his own phone number.

That number forwarded incoming calls to the real Secret Service phone number, while he stayed on the conversation as a silent third party. He also recorded the conversations.

Man talk about screwing the pooch.

219 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:58:31am

Why do we have the Worlds Largest Military if we cannot use it wherever and whenever we get a chance?

220 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 5:59:29am

re: #217 Targetpractice

Yeah, I don’t think this is simply about the Crimea anymore. Between the manpower and the firepower moved into place, I think they’ve got a bigger appetite.

6.000 troops is not a lot, does not even come to a division, even with the forces already there

221 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:00:37am

Wow, I was looking through some old papers (specifically my file on when I rented this apt, looking for a phone #) and found that the Tenant Screening Report done by my landlord included these databases: Registered Sex Offenders; National Security/OFAC/Denied Persons; National Criminal File. Coverage only went back 7 yrs. They check these on all adult renters, and these folks don’t own all that many properties. I’d never noticed this before because I was so glad to find this reasonably priced apt (through a friend) when the economy was in such a mess and rents were going sky-high around here because there were so many foreclosures.

I won’t list them all here, but the Patriot Act/OFAC Search includes quite a list of agencies, including “World Bank Debarred List” And “Australian Consolidated List”, among the many. Also, Dept of Corrections were checked in every state and in individual counties in a number of states (all of which I never lived in, except San Diego, which was 50 yrs ago).

I think it was maybe a bit of overkill, but when this couple bought the property, there were some real “winners” here, including a woman who ran her “escort service” out of her apt and a mother-daughter team who dealt oxycontin. Maybe some others with issues. The old landlord didn’t care who he rented to and it was pretty run down when the new owners bought it and they did a lot of rehabbing, a lot of the work themselves while working regular jobs. The unwritten rules seem to be to keep your place reasonably free of damage and your parties preferably inside, or to not disturb others unreasonably. And they are quick to fix any problems you report.

The owners told me once that they don’t even do credit checks, and I have seen them work with renters who were behind. We weren’t even charged a security deposit. They do keep the property up well (I just got a new water heater yesterday and the old hadn’t stopped, was just old), and we’ve never had any trouble from any of the neighbors in the 4 yrs we’ve lived here. We certainly aren’t going anywhere; at least, I’m not.

222 b.d.  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:08:52am

Good morning all.

Has the EU gotten this Crimean thing settled yet? I heard they were the go to guys for the Ukraine deal.

223 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:10:06am

re: #220 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)

6.000 troops is not a lot, does not even come to a division, even with the forces already there

But it’s enough to secure a few government buildings in those oblasts you wish to procure.

224 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:11:15am

Putin ups the ante.

bbc.com

Russia’s President Vladimir Putin has asked his upper house of parliament to approve the use of Russian troops in Ukraine, the Kremlin says.

225 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:12:06am

Apple CEO Tim Cook slaps down Conservative Think Tank at investors meeting. Tells them to get out of his stock.

macobserver.com

Mr. Cook’s comments came during the question and answer session of Apple’s annual shareholder meeting, which the NCPPR attended as shareholder. The self-described conservative think tank was pushing a shareholder proposal that would have required Apple to disclose the costs of its sustainability programs and to be more transparent about its participation in “certain trade associations and business organizations promoting the amorphous concept of environmental sustainability.”

As I covered in depth yesterday, the proposal was politically-based, and rooted in the premise that humanity plays no role in climate change. Other language in the proposal advanced the idea that profits should be the only thing corporations consider.

That shareholder proposal was rejected by Apple’s shareholders, receiving just 2.95 percent of the vote. During the question and answer session, however, the NCPPR representative asked Mr. Cook two questions, both of which were in line with the principles espoused in the group’s proposal.

The first question challenged an assertion from Mr. Cook that Apple’s sustainability programs and goals—Apple plans on having 100 percent of its power come from green sources—are good for the bottom line. The representative asked Mr. Cook if that was the case only because of government subsidies on green energy.

Mr. Cook didn’t directly answer that question, but instead focused on the second question: the NCPPR representative asked Mr. Cook to commit right then and there to doing only those things that were profitable.

What ensued was the only time I can recall seeing Tim Cook angry, and he categorically rejected the worldview behind the NCPPR’s advocacy. He said that there are many things Apple does because they are right and just, and that a return on investment (ROI) was not the primary consideration on such issues.

“When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind,” he said, “I don’t consider the bloody ROI.” He said that the same thing about environmental issues, worker safety, and other areas where Apple is a leader.

As evidenced by the use of “bloody” in his response—the closest thing to public profanity I’ve ever seen from Mr. Cook-it was clear that he was quite angry. His body language changed, his face contracted, and he spoke in rapid fire sentences compared to the usual metered and controlled way he speaks.

He didn’t stop there, however, as he looked directly at the NCPPR representative and said, “If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out of this stock.”

(bolding mine)

226 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:12:14am

My girls just made me breakfast for my birthday :). Scrambled eggs with a bagel and a cup of coffee. My girls are the best!

227 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:12:36am

re: #224 Dr Lizardo

Putin ups the ante.

bbc.com

Yeah, I don’t think this is going to end with just Crimea. If Putin isn’t looking to put Yanuk in power, then he’s looking to grab as much land as he can before the EU speaks up.

228 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave to the waffle light)  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:12:38am

re: #223 Targetpractice

But it’s enough to secure a few government buildings in those oblasts you wish to procure.

Postcard from occupying forces: “Crimea was an oblast!”

229 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:13:51am

re: #227 Targetpractice

Yeah, I don’t think this is going to end with just Crimea. If Putin isn’t looking to put Yanuk in power, then he’s looking to grab as much land as he can before the EU speaks up.

That’s what it seems like. I do wonder what the Poles are up to right about now? I do know they’re taking a very dim view of this.

230 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:20:47am

According to Tsar Vladimir I:

“In connection with the extraordinary situation in Ukraine, the threat to the lives of citizens of the Russian Federation, our compatriots, and the personnel of the armed forces of the Russian Federation on Ukrainian territory (in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea) … I submit a proposal on using the armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine until the normalisation of the socio-political situation in the that country,” the statement said.

Sounds like he’s going for all of Ukraine. That’s a declaration of war.

231 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:21:32am

re: #229 Dr Lizardo

That’s what it seems like. I do wonder what the Poles are up to right about now? I do know they’re taking a very dim view of this.

I think they’re waiting to see what Russia’s next move will be. Will they stay in Crimea? Will they push to seize Eastern Ukraine, much like they did with South Ossetia? Or will they push all the way to Kyiv and put Yanuk back in power, thereby making a mockery of democracy in Ukraine?

232 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:23:19am

I have yet to find anyone, even among the right-wing, generally military interventionist people I know, who will actually say they’re for military intervention by the US. Some want the EU to do it, but nobody will say they want the US to do it.

Many are still accusing Obama of being weak, or lame duck, or conciliatory, while themselves being unable to even articulate their position.

There is not support for military intervention. I will be very interested to see the results of a poll, but I don’t think there will even be much support on the hawkish side, not while everyone’s so skittish and shy about actually saying they support it. Maybe they’ll say ‘yes’ on an anonymous poll when nobody can ask them to justify their response, though.

233 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:23:37am

re: #230 Dr Lizardo

According to Tsar Vladimir I:

Sounds like he’s going for all of Ukraine. That’s a declaration of war.

Yeah, I’d say that’s that. He knows that the UN can’t launch any action so long as Russia holds a Security Council veto, so it’s up to the EU to take some form of action. Economic sanctions are not going to cut it this time.

234 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:24:18am

re: #230 Dr Lizardo

According to Tsar Vladimir I:

Sounds like he’s going for all of Ukraine. That’s a declaration of war.

I don’t think it’s going to as easy as Crimea has been. They better not expect to just walk in without a fight.

235 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:24:45am

re: #233 Targetpractice

Yeah, I’d say that’s that. He knows that the UN can’t launch any action so long as Russia holds a Security Council veto, so it’s up to the EU to take some form of action. Economic sanctions are not going to cut it this time.

You may well be right. If Poland gets involved, it goes without saying that has a very strong possibility of getting NATO involved as well.

236 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:25:03am

re: #234 NJDhockeyfan

I don’t think it’s going to as easy as Crimea has been. They better not expect to just walk in without a fight.

It’s looking like it’s going to be Hungary all over again.

237 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:27:25am

re: #234 NJDhockeyfan

I don’t think it’s going to as easy as Crimea has been. They better not expect to just walk in without a fight.

You’re right on that - the Ukrainians, especially in the West, would fight back, most likely in the form of an insurgency movement. Already, I’ve heard mention from my Czech friends - who detest the Russians - that should Ukraine come out on top, the Ukrainians should seriously consider something like a Beneš Decrees in regard to Ukraine.

I winced when I heard that one, but I can also tell you that not only are the Beneš Decrees quite popular with the Czechs, they’re actually still the law. They’re still on the books.

238 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:28:55am
239 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:30:07am

re: #235 Dr Lizardo

You may well be right. If Poland gets involved, it goes without saying that has a very strong possibility of getting NATO involved as well.

That’s the problem, with Ukraine not being a NATO member, there’s no real mandate on their part to intervene. And Putin will make absolutely sure that any hostilities stop before crossing the Polish border. So if Poland does involve itself, without some sort of support from NATO nations, then we might see an argument that this is a provincial matter.

240 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:31:05am

Putin asks parliament for permission to use Russian military in Ukraine (CONTINUOUS UPDATES)

kyivpost.com

241 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:33:49am

re: #232 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Putin isn’t Saddam Hussein. Putin could fight back if we sent military to drive him out of Ukraine.

This is where pundit theory shows itself to be absolutely meaningless. Yes, they’ll keep taking jabs at Obama and calling him weak…they want to prevent Hillary from following successful footsteps to the White House. But they won’t commit to a strategy (as there is no right strategy - and things will change several times before this settles), rather they’ll satisfy themselves by criticizing whichever strategy they think Obama’s using.

242 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:33:56am

re: #239 Targetpractice

That’s the problem, with Ukraine not being a NATO member, there’s no real mandate on their part to intervene. And Putin will make absolutely sure that any hostilities stop before crossing the Polish border. So if Poland does involve itself, without some sort of support from NATO nations, then we might see an argument that this is a provincial matter.

Yep, that’s right. I could see a situation where NATO tells Poland, “Good luck, guys!” Of course, there’s also the possibility that NATO may feel to back up Poland, tacitly if nothing else.

And of course, that’s usually how the shit ends up hitting the fan.

243 Mattand  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:39:52am

re: #232 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I have yet to find anyone, even among the right-wing, generally military interventionist people I know, who will actually say they’re for military intervention by the US. Some want the EU to do it, but nobody will say they want the US to do it.

I can foresee a circular wingnut meme starting to form: Obama is weak and should be more like Putin, who is invading the Ukraine, so Obama should intervene and be strong like the dictator who likes to invade shit.

244 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:42:18am

re: #243 Mattand

I can foresee a circular wingnut meme starting to form: Obama is weak and should be more like Putin, who is invading the Ukraine, so Obama should intervene and be strong like the dictator who likes to invade shit.

I imagine they’ll be all for military force, right up until he starts talking military force, which is when they’ll whine that polls show the American people don’t want to get involved in another country’s issues and he’s wrong for sending our boys to fight another country’s battles. Oh, and also suggesting that he’s only looking at military force because it’s an election year.

245 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:42:53am

So:

1) assume power via shenanigans
2) kill and imprison critics
3) single out a particular segment of the population for harsh legal [mis]treament
4) host self-aggrandizing Olympic games
5) annex the Sudetenland Ukraine
6) ???

Haven’t we seen this movie already?

246 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:43:49am

re: #244 Targetpractice

I imagine they’ll be all for military force, right up until he starts talking military force, which is when they’ll whine that polls show the American people don’t want to get involved in another country’s issues and he’s wrong for sending our boys to fight another country’s battles. Oh, and also suggesting that he’s only looking at military force because it’s an election year.

Precisely. The GOP will talk tough, but the millisecond after Obama says, “OK; we’re sending NATO into Ukraine to drive the Russians out”, it’ll unfold just like you said.

247 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:44:23am
248 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:44:39am

re: #245 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

So:

1) assume power via shenanigans
2) kill and imprison critics
3) single out a particular segment of the population for harsh legal [mis]treament
4) host self-aggrandizing Olympic games
5) annex the Sudetenland Ukraine
6) ???

Haven’t we seen this movie already?

6) Threaten further conquests, provoking Western nations to propose they simply give him the land he wants to avoid further bloodshed.

249 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:44:47am

This, of course, is just pro forma; as if there is actually democracy in Russia.

250 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:44:54am

re: #245 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

So:

1) assume power via shenanigans
2) kill and imprison critics
3) single out a particular segment of the population for harsh legal [mis]treament
4) host self-aggrandizing Olympic games
5) annex the Sudetenland Ukraine
6) ???

Haven’t we seen this movie already?

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I’ve read about this film……it was released a little before my time, but I understand it was pretty epic. Especially the climax of the film, which took place in Berlin.

251 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:45:22am

re: #246 Dr Lizardo

Precisely. The GOP will talk tough, but the millisecond after Obama says, “OK; we’re sending NATO into Ukraine to drive the Russians out”, it’ll unfold just like you said.

Yep, it’s the Bosnian War all over again. “He’s only sending troops to make himself look good! We have no part in this war!”

252 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:47:30am

And, of course, the vote is unanimous.

253 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:47:56am
254 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:48:01am
The upper house of the Russian parliament unanimously approved President Putin’s request to use armed forces in defence of Russians and Russian interests, anywhere in the territory of Ukraine.

That’s a declaration of war.

255 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:48:28am

re: #250 Dr Lizardo

I’m hoping they don’t try to make it into a trilogy, followed by remakes and reboots and remakes of the reboots, etc.

256 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:48:48am

re: #254 Dr Lizardo

That’s a declaration of war.

You sorta knew this was going to happen when there were pro-Russian protestors earlier today. Putin now has all the justification he needs to say that he’s invading Ukraine to protect Russian citizens.

257 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:49:25am

re: #255 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce

I’m hoping they don’t try to make it into a trilogy, followed by remakes and reboots and remakes of the reboots, etc.

Yeah, fucking remakes, reboots, reboots of the remakes…..it seems like no one has any originality left anymore.

258 b.d.  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:49:53am

re: #252 Justanotherhuman

And, of course, the vote is unanimous.

[Embedded content]

Unanimous = Freedom!

//

259 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:50:03am
260 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:50:17am

So, is Crimea Russia’s staging area?

261 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:50:17am

re: #256 Targetpractice

You sorta knew this was going to happen when there were pro-Russian protestors earlier today. Putin now has all the justification he needs to say that he’s invading Ukraine to protect Russian citizens.

I wonder what the Ukrainians would say.

262 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:50:47am

re: #260 Justanotherhuman

So, is Crimea Russia’s staging area?

[Embedded content]

Most likely. That’s why they’re securing it.

263 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:51:35am

re: #261 Dr Lizardo

I wonder what the Ukrainians would say.

At least he waited until it was almost Spring.

264 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:52:23am

re: #261 Dr Lizardo

I wonder what the Ukrainians would say.

Kinda hard to same much from under tank treads.

265 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:52:37am

Morning Lizardim from the bitterly cold wild north country. I presume today’s Polar Plunge went off without a hitch, although in this weather, I wonder if anybody even bothered to show up.

…Who am I kidding, of course they did, these people are crazy enough to JUMP IN A FROZEN LAKE.

How go things among the lizardfolk? Since my scales are not glowing this morning, I presume that, yet again, the world did not, in fact, end.

266 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:52:47am

re: #263 darthstar

At least he waited until it was almost Spring.

The Ukrainians will fight back, especially in the West if Putin is fool enough to go that far. There will be a Ukrainian insurgency, and it will be ugly.

Think……”ethnic cleansing”.

267 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:53:47am

This is behind a paywall, damn it.

North Atlantic Council to consider situation in Ukraine on March 3

kyivpost.com

NATO will convene the North Atlantic Council to consider the situation in Ukraine.

268 Lancelot Link  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:56:12am

re: #263 darthstar

At least he waited until it was almost Spring.

Sprrrringtime
for Putin
and Russ-i-yaaaa….

269 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:56:14am

Ukraine crisis: Text of Putin’s request to use troops.

Short, ugly.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has asked the Russian parliament to use Russian troops in Ukraine, as the political crisis continues there.

This is the full text of his request, as published on the Russian presidential website:

“In connection with the extraordinary situation that has arisen in the Ukraine, the threat to the lives of citizens of the Russian Federation, our fellow countrymen and the personnel of the military contingent of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation deployed on the territory of the Ukraine (the Autonomous Republic of the Crimea) in accordance with an international agreement, on the basis of Point G Part 1 of Article 101 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation [governing the use of Russian armed forces outside Russian territory], I am submitting to the Council of the Federation [upper house] of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation a request to use the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of the Ukraine until the normalisation of the socio-political situation in that country.”

bbc.com

270 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:57:25am
271 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:58:29am
272 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 6:59:19am

re: #266 Dr Lizardo

I see I’m not the only one who sees the situation as turning ‘ugly’…

And to think just a few months ago people were saying Putin should get the Nobel Peace Prize for stopping Obama from invading Syria.

273 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:00:11am

re: #269 Justanotherhuman

Ukraine crisis: Text of Putin’s request to use troops.

Short, ugly.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has asked the Russian parliament to use Russian troops in Ukraine, as the political crisis continues there.

This is the full text of his request, as published on the Russian presidential website:

“In connection with the extraordinary situation that has arisen in the Ukraine, the threat to the lives of citizens of the Russian Federation, our fellow countrymen and the personnel of the military contingent of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation deployed on the territory of the Ukraine (the Autonomous Republic of the Crimea) in accordance with an international agreement, on the basis of Point G Part 1 of Article 101 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation [governing the use of Russian armed forces outside Russian territory], I am submitting to the Council of the Federation [upper house] of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation a request to use the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of the Ukraine until the normalisation of the socio-political situation in that country.”

bbc.com

Yeah, that’s what I figured. This looks like something that Putin has been playing the long game on, pushing through the citizenship of pro-Russian Ukrainians in anticipation of the day when he could claim that military force in Ukraine was in their interests. The talk about “hostilities” in Crimea as well allows him to tack on the military holdings there.

This is about to get very ugly very quickly.

274 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:00:15am
275 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:00:24am

re: #271 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

Well, no freaking kidding. President Obama is no fool; moving against Putin directly would, without a single doubt, ignite WWIII in a hail of nuclear fire. Even if both men were sane and rational enough to keep their fingers off the nuke button, it would still end in the War to End All Wars (again).

276 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:00:27am

re: #271 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]

My surprise, etc…

277 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:02:17am

Retweeted by Christopher Miller
Julia Ioffe ‏@juliaioffe 5m

One Russian parliamentarian says: “We’ve been waiting for this request from Vladimir Putin for a long time.”


Christopher Miller ‏@ChristopherJM 7m

Vorobiov says words of @BarackObama concerning Russian invasion is a direct threat to Russian people.


Retweeted by Christopher Miller
Julia Ioffe ‏@juliaioffe 14m

Russian parliamentarian Vorobiev calls for recalling Russian ambassador to US.

278 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:03:02am

re: #277 Justanotherhuman

Retweeted by Christopher Miller
Julia Ioffe ‏@juliaioffe 5m

One Russian parliamentarian says: “We’ve been waiting for this request from Vladimir Putin for a long time.”

Christopher Miller ‏@ChristopherJM 7m

Vorobiov says words of @BarackObama concerning Russian invasion is a direct threat to Russian people.

Retweeted by Christopher Miller
Julia Ioffe ‏@juliaioffe 14m

Russian parliamentarian Vorobiev calls for recalling Russian ambassador to US.

Shit’s gettin’ real.

279 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:03:17am

WTF? Russia is really rattling the sabres.

280 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:04:12am
281 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:04:24am

re: #273 Targetpractice

It’s already as ugly as homemade sin.

282 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:05:13am

Just saw this:

Reuters have reported that Ukraine’s acting president has called an emergency meeting of security chiefs on Saturday.
Oleksander Turchinov summoned his Security Council after Russian President Vladimir Putin sought parliamentary approval to deploy Russian forces in the Ukrainian region of Crimea.

283 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:07:10am

re: #281 Justanotherhuman

It’s already as ugly as homemade sin.

And it’s only getting worse. I went to bed thinking that Putin was the guy running the show, wake up to find that the entire Russian government rewound itself to 1963.

284 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:07:21am

Lying Russian bastard.

285 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:07:54am
286 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:08:11am

re: #283 Targetpractice

And it’s only getting worse. I went to bed thinking that Putin was the guy running the show, wake up to find that the entire Russian government rewound itself to 1963.

lol

About right. And people say the Sixties are dead? Hell, not in the Kremlin!

287 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:08:41am

re: #283 Targetpractice

And it’s only getting worse. I went to bed thinking that Putin was the guy running the show, wake up to find that the entire Russian government rewound itself to 1963.

There is a reason why the Sochi Games made a massive production out of glorifying the Soviet years.

288 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:09:16am

This is actually looking worse than South Ossetia. At least there, Putin stopped short of taking all of Georgia. It seems this time he’s decided to go for the whole enchilada.

289 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:09:55am
290 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:10:39am

re: #288 Targetpractice

This is actually looking worse than South Ossetia. At least there, Putin stopped short of taking all of Georgia. It seems this time he’s decided to go for the whole enchilada.

NATO will likely place its forces in Europe on alert, particularly in Poland, Slovakia and Hungary.

291 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:12:17am
292 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:13:24am

It’s not an invasion…it’s just a ‘stabilizing contingent’…whew. I feel better now.

293 wheat-dogghazi  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:13:49am

re: #291 Justanotherhuman

Russians have run the clock further back than the 1960s. Now they think it’s the 1930s.

294 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:14:15am
295 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:14:27am

This seems so desperate on Russia’s part.

If there’s something that the history of the 20th and 21st century shows us, it’s that conquest just doesn’t work. Taking areas by force and holding onto them hasn’t really worked for anyone except insurgents in their own country. This seems like something they’ve forced themselves into with increasing nationalism and self-deception.

296 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:15:26am

re: #295 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

This seems so desperate on Russia’s part.

If there’s something that the history of the 20th and 21st century shows us, it’s that conquest just doesn’t work. Taking areas by force and holding onto them hasn’t really worked for anyone except insurgents in their own country. This seems like something they’ve forced themselves into with increasing nationalism and self-deception.

And certainly, the Russians will face an insurgency movement, especially if they enter into Western Ukraine.

297 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:16:53am
298 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:17:32am

re: #295 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

This seems so desperate on Russia’s part.

If there’s something that the history of the 20th and 21st century shows us, it’s that conquest just doesn’t work. Taking areas by force and holding onto them hasn’t really worked for anyone except insurgents in their own country. This seems like something they’ve forced themselves into with increasing nationalism and self-deception.

The history of empires is that when they stop conquering, they tend to start falling apart due to internal problems.

299 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:17:40am
300 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:17:49am

re: #226 NJDhockeyfan

My girls just made me breakfast for my birthday :). Scrambled eggs with a bagel and a cup of coffee. My girls are the best!

Happy Birthday!

301 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:18:18am
302 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:18:45am

re: #298 Targetpractice

The history of empires is that when they stop conquering, they tend to start falling apart due to internal problems.

See, e.g., the Russians’ previous attempt at dominating Eastern Europe. You’d think they would learn from history rather than repeating it.

303 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:19:47am

re: #300 Killgore Trout

Happy Birthday!

Thanks! I’m not going to do a fucking thing today. It’s my only day of the year to do nothing.

304 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:20:22am

re: #303 NJDhockeyfan

Thanks! I’m not going to do a fucking thing today. It’s my only day of the year to do nothing.

Slacker Uber Alles!

305 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:20:41am

re: #302 thedopefishlives

See, e.g., the Russians’ previous attempt at dominating Eastern Europe. You’d think they would learn from history rather than repeating it.

Но на этот раз это будет совершенно другой!

(But this time it will be totally different!)

306 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:21:14am

re: #303 NJDhockeyfan

Thanks! I’m not going to do a fucking thing today. It’s my only day of the year to do nothing.

Happy Birthday. Slacking on one’s birthday has long been one of my favorite traditions.

307 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:22:50am

re: #305 Dr Lizardo

>Но на этот раз это будет совершенно другой!

(But this time it will be totally different!)

Yes, and that’s what the Germans said the last time they invaded your fair country, and we all know how that turned out.

308 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:23:00am

re: #303 NJDhockeyfan

Thanks! I’m not going to do a fucking thing today. It’s my only day of the year to do nothing.

Youtube Video

309 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:24:19am

re: #307 thedopefishlives

Yes, and that’s what the Germans said the last time they invaded your fair country, and we all know how that turned out.

Precisely. Some leaders simply either never learn the lessons of history, or they believe they’re immune to those lessons.

Which sounds like what we’re seeing here.

310 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:24:40am

Great, don’t let the door hit you in the ass!

311 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:24:55am

The federation council has now approved Putin’s request to use armed force in Ukraine.

Then it shall be war, it seems.

312 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:24:57am

re: #303 NJDhockeyfan

Thanks! I’m not going to do a fucking thing today. It’s my only day of the year to do nothing.

Happy, happy Birfday!

313 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:26:53am

re: #312 Justanotherhuman

Happy, happy Birfday!

And what a day it is. My wife just told me a share a birthday with Justin Beiber!

314 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:27:00am
315 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:27:12am

re: #299 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Ha, no Nickelback? Though Creed is worse then them.

316 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:28:58am

re: #313 NJDhockeyfan

And what a day it is. My wife just told me a share a birthday with Justin Beiber!

That’s alright. Somebody had to.

Many happy returns.

317 Official Lab Rat In Gay Radical Experiment  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:30:12am

re: #297 NJDhockeyfan

Happy Birthday!

318 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:30:17am
319 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:34:27am

I don’t find Russia’s approval for troops surprising. They’ll send just enough troops to take what they want. That might be just Crimea or all of Ukraine. They”ll take most of it without much resistance from the Ukrainians. There will be some complaints from the West but I don’t expect much else.

320 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:35:10am

“Stabilising” contingent? I don’t think so.

321 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:35:16am
322 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:35:59am

re: #319 Killgore Trout

I don’t find Russia’s approval for troops surprising. They’ll send just enough troops to take what they want. That might be just Crimea or all of Ukraine. They”ll take most of it without much resistance from the Ukrainians. There will be some complaints from the West but I don’t expect much else.

I think we should all keep in mind that, all of two weeks ago, most folks didn’t expect events in Ukraine to move so quickly that Yanuk was removed from power in all of two days. Or that Russia would begin amassing troops in Crimea.

323 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:35:59am

re: #319 Killgore Trout

I don’t find Russia’s approval for troops surprising. They’ll send just enough troops to take what they want. That might be just Crimea or all of Ukraine. They”ll take most of it without much resistance from the Ukrainians. There will be some complaints from the West but I don’t expect much else.

I’m pretty sure Putin is going all in. He wouldn’t have asked for permission for all of Ukraine if he was just going for Crimea.

324 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:36:13am

I have to wonder, though, what the dudebros must be thinking about Putin essentially pulling a George W. Bush. Isn’t Putin supposed to be the greatest ruler of the greatest country ever? And yet here he is, inventing the merest hint of pretext for full-on invasion of a sovereign nation. At least W had the excuse of misinformation.

325 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:36:58am

Ukrainian troops know they can’t stand up Russia by themselves and they know that they’ll have to get along after the Russians take over. Giving up is the smart thing to do.

326 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:37:04am

re: #319 Killgore Trout

I don’t find Russia’s approval for troops surprising. They’ll send just enough troops to take what they want. That might be just Crimea or all of Ukraine. They”ll take most of it without much resistance from the Ukrainians. There will be some complaints from the West but I don’t expect much else.

I think you’re pretty naive about Ukrainians. Many may be tired, but most are tired of Russia’s yoke around their necks.

327 Flounder  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:38:47am

re: #303 NJDhockeyfan

Hey, Happy Burfday!!!!

328 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:38:58am

re: #322 Targetpractice

I think we should all keep in mind that, all of two weeks ago, most folks didn’t expect events in Ukraine to move so quickly that Yanuk was removed from power in all of two days. Or that Russia would begin amassing troops in Crimea.

I expected the Russian troops earlier and didn’t expect Yanuk to fall so quickly. If Russians had sent in troops a couple weeks ago Yanuk would still be sitting in his mansion.

329 makeitstop  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:39:01am

This situation needs a theme song. This one popped into my head this morning, and it gets my vote.

Youtube Video

330 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:39:18am

Good morning.

And happy birthday NJD.

331 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:40:14am
332 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:40:57am

re: #319 Killgore Trout

Do you want much else? Do you want military intervention from the US or the EU?

333 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:41:22am

re: #332 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Do you want much else? Do you want military intervention from the US or the EU?

I for one welcome WW3.

334 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:42:01am

re: #324 thedopefishlives

I have to wonder, though, what the dudebros must be thinking about Putin essentially pulling a George W. Bush. Isn’t Putin supposed to be the greatest ruler of the greatest country ever? And yet here he is, inventing the merest hint of pretext for full-on invasion of a sovereign nation. At least W had the excuse of misinformation.

If the Freepers are any indication, they haven’t a fucking clue what to think about Putin’s move, other than Obama’s wrong for whatever move he takes.

335 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:44:15am

re: #326 Justanotherhuman

I think you’re pretty naive about Ukrainians. Many may be tired, but most are tired of Russia’s yoke around their necks.

Maybe but only two weeks ago the military was serving the Russian backed government. There hasn’t been much time for the new government to consolidate power. How many of them will actually follow orders to fight much better trained and equipped Russian troops? They’ll almost certainly die. Some may fight but I suspect most won’t. It’s a death sentence. Any surviving military leaders will be rounded up after the inevitable Russian victory.

336 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:45:13am

re: #335 Killgore Trout

Maybe but only two weeks ago the military was serving the Russian backed government. There hasn’t been much time for the new government to consolidate power. How many of them will actually follow orders to fight much better trained and equipped Russian troops? They’ll almost certainly die. Some may fight but I suspect most won’t. It’s a death sentence. Any surviving military leaders will be rounded up after the inevitable Russian victory.

You really believe that the Ukrainian people will just roll over and become Russia’s client state all over again?

337 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:45:50am

re: #302 thedopefishlives

See, e.g., the Russians’ previous attempt at dominating Eastern Europe. You’d think they would learn from history rather than repeating it.

But they can’t. That would entail they were wrong the last time around, and fanatical imperialists never, ever admit to error or doubt.

338 Flounder  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:46:42am

re: #336 Targetpractice

Do they have a choice?

339 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:47:34am

It snowed a small bit in the wee hours of the morning in my part of the world.

The cat is wandering around making a very sorrowful “meow” sound.

you?

340 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:48:13am

re: #328 Killgore Trout

I expected the Russian troops earlier and didn’t expect Yanuk to fall so quickly. If Russians had sent in troops a couple weeks ago Yanuk would still be sitting in his mansion.

He might get it back if Putin wants him to rule Ukraine again.

341 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:49:01am

re: #335 Killgore Trout

Why do you think the Russian troops are better trained than the Ukrainian troops? Are you claiming actual knowledge on the subject?

And do you think the US or the EU should military intervene? It’s really weird, but the people who have the most to say on this subject dodge that question every time.

342 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:50:26am

re: #336 Targetpractice

You really believe that the Ukrainian people will just roll over and become Russia’s client state all over again?

I don’t think they have much choice. I can’t see how they might successfully stop the Russians from taking the country. I’m open to ideas.

343 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:50:27am

re: #338 Flounder

Do they have a choice?

I don’t believe for a second that people who just fought to throw out Russia’s puppet are gonna turn around and sit on their hands while Russia rolls tanks through their front yards.

344 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:50:50am

re: #329 makeitstop

This situation needs a theme song. This one popped into my head this morning, and it gets my vote.

m.youtube.com

Which one? : )

I rather like this one, saturated with great funkiness, which was also background music for a bar scene in the second season of “House of Cards”.

Youtube Video

345 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:51:13am

re: #338 Flounder

Do they have a choice?

It’s the same choice that a nation and its people always have in such a situation.

Submit, or die.

Hate to Manicheaen about it but there it is. Having said that, considering how kind Putin will be to the Ukrainians it will be better to die with steel in your teeth than in your back.

346 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:51:13am

Seeing how the Ukraine situation is rapidly escalating, is there a way to fight an economic war with Russia?

I am not sure of their total economic situation but I imagine oil is a biggie in keeping money flowing into their economy. Is there a way the US with the help of maybe Saudi Arabia, Canada, UAB, Mexico and even China flood the market with reserves at low prices to drive down price at hurt their economy enough to make them pause?

As an addition, is there a way to scuttle any Russian transportation of oil out of Russia, especially to Europe through the Ukraine?

Another thing to consider is the world banking system refusing to cooperate with Russia while they are in Ukraine. Russia just spent a huge amount of cash to put on the games and took criticism from many for doing that. Warring with the Ukraine is going to cost too. So, would any fucking with their economy hurt them enough to slow them up.

Just trying to think outside the military answer box. As many have said, the US is in no mood for military action. Is economic war something that could work at this time?

To be considered, would really harsh economic war piss off Putin to the point where he would want to go nuts militarily as that might anger him more than trying to stop him in Ukraine.

One last point…has there been any word from China on all this? I think China’s response is critical to what pressure can be put on Vlad and the boys in any manner.

347 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:51:17am
348 Flounder  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:51:36am

re: #343 Targetpractice

These are the Russians, not the Ukrainian police.

349 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:51:54am

re: #342 Killgore Trout

I don’t think they have much choice. I can’t see how they might successfully stop the Russians from taking the country. I’m open to ideas.

You seem to assume that the futility of resistance will mean that there will be none. Poland and Finland would like a word with you.

350 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:51:55am

re: #340 NJDhockeyfan

He might get it back if Putin wants him to rule Ukraine again.

They might put him back in as the “legitimate” leader but the Russians aren’t happy with him. They’ll probably replace him with somebody more reliable later on.

351 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:52:05am
352 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:52:59am

How many Crimean Wars have there been?

353 makeitstop  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:53:05am

re: #344 Justanotherhuman

Which one? : )

I rather like this one, saturated with great funkiness, which was also background music for a bar scene in the second season of “House of Cards”.

[Embedded content]

Sorry - posted that from my Kindle, which gave me a mobile URL which seems to be good for nothing.

Here ya go…

Youtube Video

354 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:54:28am

re: #348 Flounder

These are the Russians, not the Ukrainian police.

Civilian resistance in the face of superior forces is pretty much a staple of European warfare. Don’t think so? Look up the origin of the Molotov cocktail.

355 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:54:38am

Is there an e-reader into which one can plug a USB?

356 Flounder  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:54:57am

re: #354 Targetpractice

Till your dead.

357 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:55:29am

re: #349 Targetpractice

You seem to assume that the futility of resistance will mean that there will be none. Poland and Finland would like a word with you.

Finland, in particular, had a wildly successful resistance until a lucky breakthrough forced their hand.

358 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:55:37am

re: #356 Flounder

Till your dead.

Better to die on your feet than serve on your knees.

359 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:55:52am

Look at that picture. They’re beating children!

360 Flounder  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:55:57am

re: #358 Targetpractice

Amen

361 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:56:38am

Shit shit shit.


Tony Halpin ‏@tonyhalpin 12m

Next time you hear Kremlin insist on respect for sovereignty, international law etc, remember to add hollow laughter sound track

362 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:57:57am

re: #359 NJDhockeyfan

Look at that picture. They’re beating children!

[Embedded content]

Powerful image. Fuck Putin.

363 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:59:24am

re: #362 HappyWarrior

Powerful image. Fuck Putin.

That picture needs to be on the front page of every news website.

364 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 7:59:46am

re: #362 HappyWarrior

Powerful image. Fuck Putin.

1000x.

365 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:00:03am

re: #363 NJDhockeyfan

That picture needs to be on the front page of every news website.

and in the email boxes of every asshole who says Putin’s Russia is more “free” than the US.

366 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:02:29am

I heard shouting from the crowd and even laughter…they love Russia’s yoke, evidently.

367 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:03:00am

Have to wonder how the Far Right Religious sector is justifying all this. In our country and in Russia.

368 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:03:22am

re: #326 Justanotherhuman

I think you’re pretty naive about Ukrainians. Many may be tired, but most are tired of Russia’s yoke around their necks.

They already showed a ton of boldness in their protest. Maybe the hundred or more dead protesters slid right by those that might have seen Euromaiden as a bunch of college kids acting up.

I hate military action, but damn…sometimes things just get out of hand. I should think proper equipping of some Ukraine ‘fighters’ may be coming fast. America is always good for some backdoor ‘advisers’ and who knows maybe Cheney and the boys already have Haliburton and others like the Blackwater types getting ready for a little help.

Unlike some, I really don’t see Obama sitting in his hands. He will want to know all the ramification of anything he does, but if they do invade, I suspect there will be some resistance with US help. If anything tie Russia up and cost them big time. As I mentioned…economically may be the best way to ding the Russians. I don’t think they really want to spend much, and I don’t think their own people will want much cost either.

I would love to see some way to make this a huge mistake for Russia and that it be costly enough to internally light Russia up enough to cost Putin and that old time Russian thinking to just go the fuck away.

369 Justanotherhuman  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:04:27am

Senior Ukrainian politician Vitali Klitschko calls for ‘general mobilization’ in Ukraine - @Reuters
end of alert

370 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:05:04am

re: #367 FemNaziBitch

I have no idea, but I am sure they will find something or make it up.

371 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:05:32am

So Putin’s blaming Obama. Countdown to GOP joining Putin in 3..2..1..

372 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:06:13am

ah, kid left his bedroom door closed. Cat Overlord must want to leave hairball in that room.

373 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:06:30am

re: #371 darthstar

So Putin’s blaming Obama. Countdown to GOP joining Putin in 3..2..1..

[Embedded content]

Would not surprise me in the least to hear wingnuts declare that the President’s remarks yesterday “emboldened” Putin to take this step.

374 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:07:06am

Whao. Went to bed to a cold rainstorm and woke up to a neo cold war. Ugh. Effing Putin will be the death of thousands or worse.

375 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:07:09am

re: #370 PhillyPretzel

I have no idea, but I am sure they will find something or make it up.

Probably going to blame it on teh ghey.

376 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:07:15am

re: #373 Targetpractice

Would not surprise me in the least to hear wingnuts declare that the President’s remarks yesterday “emboldened” Putin to take this step.

I’d expect it at this point. I expect McCain or Graham to be the one to say it.

377 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:07:48am

re: #346 ObserverArt

Just trying to think outside the military answer box. As many have said, the US is in no mood for military action. Is economic war something that could work at this time?

To be considered, would really harsh economic war piss off Putin to the point where he would want to go nuts militarily as that might anger him more than trying to stop him in Ukraine.

I think threatening Russia’s allies elsewhere is what would usually be done in a situation like this. Top of the list would be Syria and Iran. Economically fucking with allies means they can’t afford to buy Russian military gear and infrastructure projects which hurts Russian finances. Unfortunately the White House is engaged in delicate diplomatic negotiations in both those countries and I think it’s unlikely we’ll upset them. I suppose there are lesser Russian satellite states we could fuck with but I don’t know if the EU and US are motivated enough to do it.

378 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:08:49am

re: #349 Targetpractice

You seem to assume that the futility of resistance will mean that there will be none. Poland and Finland would like a word with you.

I’m sure the Chechnyans would also have something to say about that too.

379 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:08:54am

re: #370 PhillyPretzel

I have no idea, but I am sure they will find something or make it up.

They love Putin because he shares their hatred of gays and Obama. Quite sad.

380 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:09:30am

re: #379 HappyWarrior

They love Putin because he shares their hatred of gays and Obama. Quite sad.

Unforgivable.

381 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:09:53am

re: #303 NJDhockeyfan

Thanks! I’m not going to do a fucking thing today. It’s my only day of the year to do nothing.

(((((((NJD))))))))

382 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:10:51am

re: #371 darthstar

So Putin’s blaming Obama. Countdown to GOP joining Putin in 3..2..1..

[Embedded content]

He already seems to be using his GOP underwritten credit card. After all, blaming Obama is always play number one.

Thank you John McCain and Lindsey Graham…such great world strategists you are.

383 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:11:10am

re: #378 Killgore Trout

I’m sure the Chechnyans would also have something to say about that too.

And the Afghans. Why so negative?

384 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:11:12am

re: #325 Killgore Trout

Ukrainian troops know they can’t stand up Russia by themselves and they know that they’ll have to get along after the Russians take over. Giving up is the smart thing to do.

The Ukrainians hate the Russians with something tantamount to a genocidal fury. I live in this part of the world, and I can assure you, the Czechs hate them just as passionately. Not to mention the Poles.

385 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:11:23am

re: #380 Political Atheist

Unforgivable.

Yep. They’re hateful bastards though whose political defeats I relish whenever they come whether it’s Brewer’s veto or Ken Cuccinnelli not getting anywhere near the governor’s mansion in Richmond.

386 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:11:55am

re: #365 HappyWarrior

and in the email boxes of every asshole who says Putin’s Russia is more “free” than the US.

Like Greenwald? Has he noticed what’s going on yet?

387 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:13:20am

re: #368 ObserverArt

Unlike some, I really don’t see Obama sitting in his hands. He will want to know all the ramification of anything he does, but if they do invade, I suspect there will be some resistance with US help. If anything tie Russia up and cost them big time. As I mentioned…economically may be the best way to ding the Russians. I don’t think they really want to spend much, and I don’t think their own people will want much cost either.

I don’t think small scale advisors, trainers and small arms shipments would be enough to help much. NATO (or US) could pledge air support to give Ukrainian troops enough firepower to resist. Militarily I think it would work but I don’t think there’s enough political will to get that done.

388 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:13:21am

The Freepers seem to be ignoring the very real implications of what’s going on to take jabs at the President, calling him “weak” for…well, they don’t know what he should have done to seem “strong,” but they’re sure it involved the military somehow. Not that they’re for war, but you know, they think there’s a military solution here…somewhere.

389 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:13:28am

re: #384 Dr Lizardo

The Ukrainians hate the Russians with something tantamount to a genocidal fury. I live in this part of the world, and I can assure you, the Czechs hate them just as passionately. Not to mention the Poles.

IIRC, this has gone back generations. There are religious and ethnic differences that don’t make sense to American’s.

390 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:14:20am

re: #384 Dr Lizardo

The Ukrainians hate the Russians with something tantamount to a genocidal fury. I live in this part of the world, and I can assure you, the Czechs hate them just as passionately. Not to mention the Poles.

I think most Eastern Europeans hate the Russians. My cousin used to work with a bunch of Slovaks who would work at her resort town in the summer months and she said that they would get upset if some stupid tourist called them Russian. Cuz liked to tease them good naturely by coming in on her off day and asking if they were from Russia but yeah the people of Eastern Europe haven’t forgotten Russia’s role in their history.

391 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:15:08am

re: #389 FemNaziBitch

IIRC, this has gone back generations. There are religious and ethnic differences that don’t make sense to American’s.

Right especially in Western Ukraine which has a lot of Eastern Rite Catholics. I strongly suspect that I have roots in that region.

392 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:15:27am

re: #388 Targetpractice

The Freepers seem to be ignoring the very real implications of what’s going on to take jabs at the President, calling him “weak” for…well, they don’t know what he should have done to seem “strong,” but they’re sure it involved the military somehow. Not that they’re for war, but you know, they think there’s a military solution here…somewhere.

Because cowboy foreign policy works so well. I mean it’s like South Ossetia happened on Obama’s Bush’s watch.

393 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:15:45am

re: #384 Dr Lizardo

The Ukrainians hate the Russians with something tantamount to a genocidal fury. I live in this part of the world, and I can assure you, the Czechs hate them just as passionately. Not to mention the Poles.

Do you think they have enough will to engage in a protracted guerilla war against the Russians? It’s certainly possible but I think it’s unlikely. That could drag on for a very long time. Possibly decades.

394 jaunte  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:16:17am

re: #379 HappyWarrior

They love Putin because he shares their hatred of gays and Obama. Quite sad.

Also:

Simon Tisdall :
“More often than not, instinctively undemocratic, oligarchic and corrupt national elites find that an appearance of democracy, with parliamentary trappings and a pretence of pluralism, is much more attractive, and manageable, than the real thing.”
theguardian.com

395 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:17:22am

re: #389 FemNaziBitch

IIRC, this has gone back generations. There are religious and ethnic differences that don’t make sense to American’s.

Yes, it goes way, way back. There are profound ethnocultural differences between the Russians and the Western Slavs.

When I talking about this with a Czech friend of mine, she brought up the Beneš Decrees, and I rather diplomatically reminded her that doing that nowadays would land whoever issued them in the ICC for crimes against humanity.

She was unimpressed by my argument. Presumably, my hat is made of bread.

396 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:17:29am

re: #394 jaunte

Also:

Yeah, I think that’s what we’re seeing here with Poot’s American fans.

397 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:17:54am

re: #390 HappyWarrior

I think most Eastern Europeans hate the Russians. My cousin used to work with a bunch of Slovaks who would work at her resort town in the summer months and she said that they would get upset if some stupid tourist called them Russian. Cuz liked to tease them good naturely by coming in on her off day and asking if they were from Russia but yeah the people of Eastern Europe haven’t forgotten Russia’s role in their history.

I have a feeling that many Russians hate Russia too. That is one reason I think there may be ways to cause some home-based messes and destabilize Putin and his government.

Wasn’t there just some protesting in Russia the other day? And add in that we are not going to hear a lot about internal Russian issues with them doing anything in the Ukraine.

398 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:18:02am

re: #392 HappyWarrior

Because cowboy foreign policy works so well.

Yeah, that’s a common theme amongst the wingnuts, the idea that cowboy diplomacy looks “strong” to the rest of the world. But the reality is we’re not talking some weak foreign power that we can bully around, we’re talking a former superpower whose military is at least on the same level as ours. They want to swagger about, but none seem to have much stomach for the idea of WWIII breaking out.

399 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:19:40am

Still wondering if Putin will be content with just taking Crimea or does he take all of Ukraine?

400 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:19:42am

re: #393 Killgore Trout

Do you think they have enough will to engage in a protracted guerilla war against the Russians? It’s certainly possible but I think it’s unlikely. That could drag on for a very long time. Possibly decades.

Yes, I do. And I know real, actual Czechs I’ve been speaking to regarding this who would cheerfully go to Ukraine to join in a little good old-fashioned anti-Russian ethnic cleansing.

Yes, they have the will, and they’ll do it with a song in their heart and a smile on the lips.

401 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:20:54am

re: #325 Killgore Trout

Ukrainian troops know they can’t stand up Russia by themselves and they know that they’ll have to get along after the Russians take over. Giving up is the smart thing to do.

what?

402 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:21:03am

re: #398 Targetpractice

Their military isn’t anywhere near the level of ours, but it doesn’t have to be. We’re not going to even possibly fight an all-out war. And if we did, they’ve got nukes.

Russia has severe problems with its economy and its military. What makes this scarier to me is that it seems desperate because Russia gains very little from a takeover of the Crimea, and opens itself up to horrible vulnerabilities if it takes all of the Ukraine. I think that the internal state in Russia has become so nationalistic that they can’t survive politically without this rigid “Where there are ethnic Russians there we are” attitude, which is not sustainable.

403 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:22:03am
Vitaly Klitschko called on Saturday for a “general mobilisation” following Russian parliament’s decision to approve deploying troops in Ukraine’s Crimea region.
“Klitschko calls for a declaration on a general mobilisation,” his party UDAR (Punch) said in a statement.

Klitschko plans to run for election for president on May 25.

I’ll take this such a call a little more seriously when it’s the Ukrainian Minister of Defense or the Army Chief of Staff who says it.

404 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:22:05am

re: #375 FemNaziBitch

Probably going to blame it on teh ghey.

or Pussy Riot

405 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:22:11am

re: #402 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Their military isn’t anywhere near the level of ours, but it doesn’t have to be. We’re not going to even possibly fight an all-out war. And if we did, they’ve got nukes.

Russia has severe problems with its economy and its military. What makes this scarier to me is that it seems desperate because Russia gains very little from a takeover of the Crimea, and opens itself up to horrible vulnerabilities if it takes all of the Ukraine. I think that the internal state in Russia has become so nationalistic that they can’t survive politically without this rigid “Where there are ethnic Russians there we are” attitude, which is not sustainable.

One Freeper did point out that Putin’s language here has all the flavor of Hitler’s about Germany invading its neighbors to protect “ethnic Germans.”

406 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:22:36am

It’s not quite the same given that Putin hasn’t done a massive purge like Stalin did but the USSR was defeated by Finland in the Winter War. I also think that a Russian invasion of Ukraine would guarantee an international response of some kind by the major powers. I don’t think Putin’s arrogant enough to do so but who knows.

407 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:23:04am

re: #352 FemNaziBitch

How many Crimean Wars have there been?

Only 1, but the the Crimea was the last area held by the ‘White’ (Czarist) forces during the Russian Civil War. The Red Army finally conquered the area in 1920 amid atrocities and mass executions.

Later, Sevastopol’s heavy fortifications let it hold out against the Germans for around months after the rest of the Crimea was overrun. It took the Germans till June, 1942 to finally take the city, which was left in ruins. Soviet offensives in late 1943 subsequently isolated the German forces stationed in the Crimea and they remained trapped til eliminated by a Soviet amphibious landing in April 1944.


The Crimea saw a great deal of war in the 20th century, and it was the worst kind of war.

408 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:24:53am

re: #398 Targetpractice

Yeah, that’s a common theme amongst the wingnuts, the idea that cowboy diplomacy looks “strong” to the rest of the world. But the reality is we’re not talking some weak foreign power that we can bully around, we’re talking a former superpower whose military is at least on the same level as ours. They want to swagger about, but none seem to have much stomach for the idea of WWIII breaking out.

Yeah well they’re morons and I am glad that John Bolton isn’t advising this administration on foreign policy like he would if Romney had won.

409 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:25:24am
410 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:25:50am

re: #391 HappyWarrior

re: #395 Dr Lizardo

Yes, it goes way, way back. There are profound ethnocultural differences between the Russians and the Western Slavs.

When I talking about this with a Czech friend of mine, she brought up the Beneš Decrees, and I rather diplomatically reminded her that doing that nowadays would land whoever issued them in the ICC for crimes against humanity.

She was unimpressed by my argument. Presumably, my hat is made of bread.

I remember reading about all the different fiefdoms and kingdoms that were congealed (by Western Leaders) into some ‘semblence of order after WWI. It was a screwy way of organizing everything and it was relatively short lived compared to the history of the peoples.

I can’t imagine it was too much different for the Eastern side. Brought together under the Communist Yoke.

411 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:25:59am

re: #406 HappyWarrior

It’s not quite the same given that Putin hasn’t done a massive purge like Stalin did but the USSR was defeated by Finland in the Winter War. I also think that a Russian invasion of Ukraine would guarantee an international response of some kind by the major powers. I don’t think Putin’s arrogant enough to do so but who knows.

I think Putin’s banking on any international response taking time to agree on a course of action and mobilizing. He’s already got his pieces in place, all he needed was what he got today, namely the political approval of the legislature to make his move.

412 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:26:26am

Anyone getting a feeling that their might be a little ‘take Ukraine” thing going on just to demonstrate that Euromaiden was foolish and protesters should never be naive enough to ever take on big established (conservative) power. Let this be a lesson ( a big pepper-spray if you will) on all you that doth protest too much.

And I am not talking about Russia thinking that way. I’m talking closer to home. Real close.

(time to chill…out)

413 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:26:56am

re: #397 ObserverArt

I have a feeling that many Russians hate Russia too. That is one reason I think there may be ways to cause some home-based messes and destabilize Putin and his government.

Wasn’t there just some protesting in Russia the other day? And add in that we are not going to hear a lot about internal Russian issues with them doing anything in the Ukraine.

Thing about Russia albeit less so since the fall of the USSR is it’s actually a nation of many nations. China is somewhat the same. Many Americans wrongly assume that we’re one of the only nations made up of people of multiple ethnic and religious backgrounds. The big problem with Russia though is Russia has never enjoyed real democracy ever. They pretty much went from hundreds of years of Czarism to the Soviets and now to the oligarchs.

414 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:27:13am

re: #407 Dark_Falcon

Only 1, but the the Crimea was the last area held by the ‘White’ (Czarist) forces during the Russian Civil War. The Red Army finally conquered the area in 1920 amid atrocities and mass executions.

Later, Sevastopol’s heavy fortifications let it hold out against the Germans for around months after the rest of the Crimea was overrun. It took the Germans till June, 1942 to finally take the city, which was left in ruins. Soviet offensives in late 1943 subsequently isolated the German forces stationed in the Crimea and they remained trapped til eliminated by a Soviet amphibious landing in April 1944.

The Crimea saw a great deal of war in the 20th century, and it was the worst kind of war.

It seems to have a what every real estate agent wants —LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION.

Like Israel.

415 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:27:19am

And to think we had such a big hand in denuclearizing the Ukrainian military. Someone posted the agreement here the other day. Russia is breaking the deal. Anyone unfamiliar should read this wiki this morning.

en.wikipedia.org

A clip

Disputes[edit]

Main article: Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
Not everyone in Ukraine shared a will to surrender nuclear weapons. On March 12, 1992 the President of Ukraine Leonid Kravchuk suspended the transfer of tactical nuclear weapons from the territory of Ukraine.[8]
The most acute the issue turned out to be after the conflict surrounded the Tuzla Island in the Kerch Strait back in 2003 and later during the Russia-Ukraine gas disputes. During that period the President of the Russian Federation Dmitriy Medvedev allowed himself to evaluate the foreign policy of Ukraine towards Russia as non-friendly on August 11, 2009 accusing the official Kiev in impeding the Black Sea Fleet activities and that the Ukrainian weapons were killing the Russian peacekeepers in the South Ossetia.[9] In his statement the Russian President accused Ukrainian politicians in discrimination of the Russian language, skewing the Soviet history on Holodomor and the Great Patriotic War, discrimination against the Russian companies, that Ukraine without acknowledgement of Russia negotiates gas prices with the European Union. On August 27, 2009 the Ternopil Regional Council petitioned to the President of Ukraine to denounce the Budapest memorandum and announce the revival of nuclear status.[10]
James Sherr, a fellow at the Russian and Eurasian program at London-based think tank Chatham House, and key Western expert on Ukraine and Russia described Russia’s conduct during the 17 December 2013 Ukrainian-Russian action plan as violating the Budapest Memorandum through means of economic coercion, stating “Coercion does not show respect for sovereignty. It is a violation of sovereignty. A number of European leaders are as persuaded as I am that Russia employed economic coercion.”[11]

416 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:27:21am

re: #405 Targetpractice

One Freeper did point out that Putin’s language here has all the flavor of Hitler’s about Germany invading its neighbors to protect “ethnic Germans.”

Then I would respectfully move that, in regards to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Godwin’s Law be suspended. Hitler comparisons need to be made, even if cheaply.

417 Varek Raith  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:28:32am

re: #416 Dark_Falcon

Then I would respectfully move that, in regards to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Godwin’s Law be suspended. Hitler comparisons need to be made, even if cheaply.

It’s not a Godwin if it’s an accurate and relevant comparison.

418 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:28:46am

re: #395 Dr Lizardo

Yes, it goes way, way back. There are profound ethnocultural differences between the Russians and the Western Slavs.

When I talking about this with a Czech friend of mine, she brought up the Beneš Decrees, and I rather diplomatically reminded her that doing that nowadays would land whoever issued them in the ICC for crimes against humanity.

She was unimpressed by my argument. Presumably, my hat is made of bread.

what kind of bread?

419 Gus  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:29:00am

Have a puppy.

420 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:29:02am

re: #416 Dark_Falcon

Then I would respectfully move that, in regards to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Godwin’s Law be suspended. Hitler comparisons need to be made, even if cheaply.

I would agree; there are distinct parallels between the situation currently brewing in Ukraine and Hitlerian shenanigans during the run-up to WWII.

421 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:29:21am

re: #405 Targetpractice

One Freeper did point out that Putin’s language here has all the flavor of Hitler’s about Germany invading its neighbors to protect “ethnic Germans.”

I was thinking that too.

422 Gus  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:29:54am

In other news. Ukraine is dying to join the EU. Meanwhile, the EU and more importantly NATO is ignoring recent events involving Russia in Ukraine. There’s something wrong with that picture. Very wrong.

423 Flounder  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:30:42am

re: #399 Killgore Trout

Where is the money at? Control the Crimea you control the Black Sea.

424 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:31:22am

re: #418 FemNaziBitch

what kind of bread?

Chleb. (pronounced like hleb with a guttural “h” sound)

It’s not bread…..it’s chleb! Or so the Czechs are fond of telling me.

Image: 4-zitny-chleb.jpg

425 Gus  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:32:02am

Also.

Fuck Russia.

426 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:32:08am

re: #417 Varek Raith

It’s not a Godwin if it’s an accurate and relevant comparison.

I was thinking of the language differences. There were German speaking people, ethnically German people living Poland, Austria, etc. Very similar to the situation in the Ukraine and Crimea.

The language thing is very interesting.

427 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:32:13am

re: #417 Varek Raith

It’s not a Godwin if it’s an accurate and relevant comparison.

Yeah, it’s not a crazy comp. I’d say Russia and Ukraine resemble Germany and Austria more so than Germany and the Czech Sudetenland.

428 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:32:35am

re: #413 HappyWarrior

Thing about Russia albeit less so since the fall of the USSR is it’s actually a nation of many nations. China is somewhat the same. Many Americans wrongly assume that we’re one of the only nations made up of people of multiple ethnic and religious backgrounds. The big problem with Russia though is Russia has never enjoyed real democracy ever. They pretty much went from hundreds of years of Czarism to the Soviets and now to the oligarchs.

Agreed. But I guess what I am trying to get at is Russia might be as close as ever in history to change all that. The world has really gotten smaller. The people now know a lot more about how the US and all the ‘West’ goes about things. People all over the world have a much broader view than any time in Russian history.

In other words…and to use an old phrase: How are you gonna keep them down on the farm when they’ve been to the city?

429 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:32:44am

re: #423 Flounder

Where is the money at? Control the Crimea you control the Black Sea.

BINGO!!!!!

430 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:33:15am

re: #424 Dr Lizardo

Chleb. (pronounced like hleb with a guttural “h” sound)

It’s not bread…..it’s chleb! Or so the Czechs are fond of telling me.

Image: 4-zitny-chleb.jpg

Looks as though it would make a good hat —or soup bowl.

431 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:33:30am

re: #427 HappyWarrior

Yeah, it’s not a crazy comp. I’d say Russia and Ukraine resemble Germany and Austria more so than Germany and the Czech Sudetenland.

Yep. More analogous to the Anschluss than anything else.

432 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:33:55am

re: #428 ObserverArt

Agreed. But I guess what I am trying to get at is Russia might be as close as ever in history to change all that. The world has really gotten smaller. The people now know a lot more about how the US and all the ‘West’ goes about things. People all over the world have a much broader view than any time in Russian history.

In other words…and to use an old phrase: How are you gonna keep them down on the farm when they’ve been to the city?

Ah good point.

433 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:34:21am

re: #430 FemNaziBitch

Looks as though it would make a good hat —or soup bowl.

Heh. It’s actually dirt cheap as well. A one-kilo (2.2 lb) loaf is about $1.25.

434 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:34:40am

re: #431 Dr Lizardo

Yep. More analogous to the Anschluss than anything else.

Yep and I am sure Putin and many pan-Russians see Ukrainians as being the same as they are just like the Nazis saw the Austrians as being part of greater Germany.

435 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:35:23am

re: #400 Dr Lizardo

Yes, I do. And I know real, actual Czechs I’ve been speaking to regarding this who would cheerfully go to Ukraine to join in a little good old-fashioned anti-Russian ethnic cleansing.

Yes, they have the will, and they’ll do it with a song in their heart and a smile on the lips.

I wish them all the luck in the world but without military assistance (and lots of it) I’m afraid it will be very costly for them.

436 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:35:37am

re: #435 Killgore Trout

I wish them all the luck in the world but without military assistance (and lots of it) I’m afraid it will be very costly for them.

Does that make it any less worthwhile?

437 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:35:41am

re: #422 Gus

In other news. Ukraine is dying to join the EU. Meanwhile, the EU and more importantly NATO is ignoring recent events involving Russia in Ukraine. There’s something wrong with that picture. Very wrong.

It does look like that. But it has only been a couple days. I bet there is all kinds of activity going on in the background. And with recent security breaches to many nations, maybe there is going to be a tight lock on any discussions. I can’t believe they are all sitting at home eating bon-bons.

I have still yet heard nothing about China. I really wonder about them in this matter too.

438 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:37:18am

re: #436 thedopefishlives

Does that make it any less worthwhile?

I applaud the effort but I have my doubts if they can win.

439 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:37:30am

re: #435 Killgore Trout

I wish them all the luck in the world but without military assistance (and lots of it) I’m afraid it will be very costly for them.

Hey, this seems like a good opportunity for you to mention if you’d like the US, or the EU, or anyone else to provide military assistance to the Ukraine, a question you’ve been constantly dodging.

I know it’s a lot harder to be a reflexive contrarian when you actually have to make your own position clear, but come on, it’ll make a fun and zesty change from passive-aggressive backseat whinging.

440 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:37:33am

re: #438 Killgore Trout

I applaud the effort but I have my doubts if they can win.

Not what I asked. Does that make it any less worthwhile?

441 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:37:35am

re: #426 FemNaziBitch

I was thinking of the language differences. There were German speaking people, ethnically German people living Poland, Austria, etc. Very similar to the situation in the Ukraine and Crimea.

The language thing is very interesting.

I actually read a novel this past year, Hunger Angel. It’s about a German speaking Romanian who was deported to Russia following WWII. Kafka who was Czech in nationality but spoke only German is another interesting example of the complexities of language and geography in central/eastern Europe. If I’m not mistaken, I think Sigmund Freud was born in the Czech Republic but also spoke only German. Simple things like calling a name by its name in another language can start stuff. I always make the effort to call the city of Gdansk in its Polish name.

442 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:39:46am

re: #441 HappyWarrior

I actually read a novel this past year, Hunger Angel. It’s about a German speaking Romanian who was deported to Russia following WWII. Kafka who was Czech in nationality but spoke only German is another interesting example of the complexities of language and geography in central/eastern Europe. If I’m not mistaken, I think Sigmund Freud was born in the Czech Republic but also spoke only German. Simple things like calling a name by its name in another language can start stuff. I always make the effort to call the city of Gdansk in its Polish name.

I met a lady during one of our travels in the last year or two. A naturalized American born in the Ukraine. She said they learned Russian in school, but her parents spoke Urkaine at home. It was important to them to keep the culture alive.

I forget how many other languages she spoke.

443 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:40:41am

re: #435 Killgore Trout

I wish them all the luck in the world but without military assistance (and lots of it) I’m afraid it will be very costly for them.

Covert military assistance to a Ukrainian insurgency movement (like we did in Afghanistan) is a distinct possibility. Look at the bloody nose the Russians took at the hands of the mujahadeen. It could work again. Large conventional armies frequently find themselves bogged down by asymmetric warfare.

444 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:40:52am

NATO is off for the weekend but they’ll think about this when business hours resume
NATO to consider situation in Ukraine on March 3

“A special meeting of the North Atlantic Council regarding Ukraine will take place on Monday,” acting Ukrainian Foreign Minister Andriy Deschytsia said at a briefing.

445 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:41:44am

re: #436 thedopefishlives

Does that make it any less worthwhile?

And what about the costs to the Russians? I notice that is never addressed. They have a fucked up economy too. The whole world has a fucked up economy and that also is not going to help how Russia will be seen.

It seems for some there is a one-way window and all they see is those damn Ukraine people may have upset the big bear now. The question is why do they see things that way? I believe history has that answer.

446 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:41:47am

re: #442 FemNaziBitch

I have a Jewish Russian classmate who immigrated here at 13, and says she’s basically only fluent in a syncretic English-Russian language, because her parents slip in and out of Russian and English as they talk at home. She’s taking both English and Russian classes, trying to get perfectly fluent in at least something.

447 Gus  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:42:12am

re: #444 Killgore Trout

NATO is off for the weekend but they’ll think about this when business hours resume
NATO to consider situation in Ukraine on March 3

OMG

448 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:42:47am

re: #442 FemNaziBitch

I met a lady during one of our travels in the last year or two. A naturalized American born in the Ukraine. She said they learned Russian in school, but her parents spoke Urkaine at home. It was important to them to keep the culture alive.

I forget how many other languages she spoke.

Yeah if I remember right during Soviet times, Russian was taught in school but Ukrainians did their best to keep their Ukrainian language and culture. It’s not uncommon for people in that part of the world even the less educated to know multiple language. My great grandfather for instance could speak English, Russian, his native Slovak, and some Ukrainian. Before he emigrated here, he had worked in Siberia. Whole reason why I suspect my family has ties to Western Ukraine is his native country would have been part of the Austro-Hungarian empire but he was working in the Russian empire. It’s fascinating. I took a whole class on nationalism in the region and it was just amazing.

449 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:43:25am

re: #447 Gus

OMG

Large supra-national military organizations deserve weekends too, ya know!!

//////

450 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:43:27am

re: #443 Dr Lizardo

Covert military assistance to a Ukrainian insurgency movement (like we did in Afghanistan) is a distinct possibility. Look at the bloody nose the Russians took at the hands of the mujahadeen. It could work again. Large conventional armies frequently find themselves bogged down by asymmetric warfare.

Military arms, if not training, would certainly gum up the works. I can’t imagine Putin could really argue that foreign interference is wrong at this point. And if he sees it as reason to expand the war, then he will certainly give NATO reason to take action.

451 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:43:29am

I watched the USSR and the wall fall in my 30’s and welcomed the loss of that superpower nuclear confrontation I had really hoped that was over for good, that the younger of you would live your lives without that kind of existential fear. I’ll never forget the duck and cover drills as a kid in school, looking at bomb shelter signs in malls and big public buildings, hearing the monthly test of air raid sirens. Cold war tropes? Sure but the fearsome reality was undeniable.

Maybe because so many of us older folks lived the cold war the news this morning puts a chill in the air.

If I had my way Putin and Obama and the pro confrontation pols would all have to watch Threads or The Day After before they move any further down the confrontational path. Reagan credited The Day After with giving him great pause and motivation to reduce nuclear arsenals all over.

452 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:43:31am

Quite remarkable that all this happens as we approach WWI’s centennial by the way.

453 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:43:49am
454 Gus  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:44:34am
455 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:44:55am

re: #438 Killgore Trout

I applaud the effort but I have my doubts if they can win.

At least try to describe the word win in your own one-way approach.

Applaud and doubt in the same sentence is extremely telling.

Talk about passive aggressive…

456 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:45:07am

re: #447 Gus

OMG

Meh, Although NATO is far more likely than the UN to take action it’s still a remote possibility. The meeting might just be a formality so there’s no hurry.

457 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:45:50am

re: #450 Targetpractice

Military arms, if not training, would certainly gum up the works. I can’t imagine Putin could really argue that foreign interference is wrong at this point. And if he sees it as reason to expand the war, then he will certainly give NATO reason to take action.

Indeed. Stinger missiles can play hell with ground-support helos, as the Russians learned at great cost. As can anti-tank weapons, grenades, and if that’s combined with some good military training, the Russian Army could find themselves facing Afghanistan II.

458 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:45:55am

re: #451 Political Atheist

I watched the USSR and the wall fall in my 30’s and welcomed the loss of that superpower nuclear confrontation I had really hoped that was over for good, that the younger of you would live your lives without that kind of existential fear. I’ll never forget the duck and cover drills as a kid in school, looking at bomb shelter signs in malls and big public buildings, hearing the monthly test of air raid sirens. Cold war tropes? Sure but the fearsome reality was undeniable.

Maybe because so many of us older folks lived the cold war the news this morning puts a chill in the air.

If I had my way Putin and Obama and the pro confrontation pols would all have to watch Threads or The Day After before they move any further down the confrontational path. Reagan credited The Day After with giving him great pause and motivation to reduce nuclear arsenals all over.

I grew up with all that and I don’t feel that chill.

I fear the ghost of the cold more than I fear any real threat.

459 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:46:37am

re: #443 Dr Lizardo

Covert military assistance to a Ukrainian insurgency movement (like we did in Afghanistan) is a distinct possibility. Look at the bloody nose the Russians took at the hands of the mujahadeen. It could work again. Large conventional armies frequently find themselves bogged down by asymmetric warfare.

Yeah…I think there was a big Hollywood movie about all that. Killgore may have seen it too.

460 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:46:56am

re: #454 Gus

[Embedded content]

A hastily written strongly worded letter might have typos or grammatical errors. These things take time.

461 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:47:20am

re: #457 Dr Lizardo

Indeed. Stinger missiles can play hell with ground-support helos, as the Russians learned at great cost. As can anti-tank weapons, grenades, and if that’s combined with some good military training, the Russian Army could find themselves facing Afghanistan II.

I imagine that’s largely why they’re rushing to get things moving, so as to prevent Western nations from either making military moves or with the aim of securing Ukraine’s western borders to prevent foreign aid from reaching any insurgency that will crop up.

462 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:47:29am

re: #448 HappyWarrior

Yeah if I remember right during Soviet times, Russian was taught in school but Ukrainians did their best to keep their Ukrainian language and culture. It’s not uncommon for people in that part of the world even the less educated to know multiple language. My great grandfather for instance could speak English, Russian, his native Slovak, and some Ukrainian. Before he emigrated here, he had worked in Siberia. Whole reason why I suspect my family has ties to Western Ukraine is his native country would have been part of the Austro-Hungarian empire but he was working in the Russian empire. It’s fascinating. I took a whole class on nationalism in the region and it was just amazing.

This lady also told me that they didn’t have the social problems until the fall of the wall. They were uprepared for it. She lost a good friend to drug abuse. All that was new for them.

463 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:48:05am

re: #460 Killgore Trout

A hastily written strongly worded letter might have typos or grammatical errors. These things take time.

And as opposed to a strongly worded letter, you think that the EU or the US should…

(crickets).

464 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:48:07am

re: #443 Dr Lizardo

Covert military assistance to a Ukrainian insurgency movement (like we did in Afghanistan) is a distinct possibility. Look at the bloody nose the Russians took at the hands of the mujahadeen. It could work again. Large conventional armies frequently find themselves bogged down by asymmetric warfare.

The problem is that the geography of Afghanistan favors insurgency far more than that of Ukraine. You can still hide in a mountain cave, but thermal imaging makes it far harder than it used to be to hide in the forest.

465 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:48:48am

Nothing to see here. I love lamp.

466 Gus  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:49:38am
467 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:49:38am

I know one thing. If I wanted everyone thinking I am going to just pass out lolly-pops, I would post it on the ‘net and say I am doing it on Monday, March 3rd. Meanwhile out the back door are going the jaw busters.

468 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:49:39am

re: #384 Dr Lizardo

The Ukrainians hate the Russians with something tantamount to a genocidal fury. I live in this part of the world, and I can assure you, the Czechs hate them just as passionately. Not to mention the Poles.

Poland as a member of NATO is the wildcard. A dangerous wildcard.

469 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:49:55am

re: #460 Killgore Trout

A hastily written strongly worded letter might have typos or grammatical errors. These things take time.

What do you believe NATO should be doing? This isn’t an NATO nation we’re talking here, and so far Russia has taken no steps beyond mobilization and positioning of forces. Really, Putin has tied their hands to a degree by framing their actions as protecting Russian citizens within Ukraine’s borders and addressing the recent collapse of a formally elected government.

470 Teukka  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:50:06am

re: #451 Political Atheist

I watched the USSR and the wall fall in my 30’s and welcomed the loss of that superpower nuclear confrontation I had really hoped that was over for good, that the younger of you would live your lives without that kind of existential fear. I’ll never forget the duck and cover drills as a kid in school, looking at bomb shelter signs in malls and big public buildings, hearing the monthly test of air raid sirens. Cold war tropes? Sure but the fearsome reality was undeniable.

Maybe because so many of us older folks lived the cold war the news this morning puts a chill in the air.

If I had my way Putin and Obama and the pro confrontation pols would all have to watch Threads or The Day After before they move any further down the confrontational path. Reagan credited The Day After with giving him great pause and motivation to reduce nuclear arsenals all over.

Also, The War Game.

And maybe the “Sarah’s nightmare” scene from Terminator 2 in slow motion (IIRC, a very realistic dramatization of a nuke going off).

As well as doing the numbers - in Hiroshima, 70k died instantly, 2x that over a coupla months afterwards, many from Acute Radiation Syndrome. And current weapons begin, if I remember correctly, at 31 times the yield of the little boy.

471 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:50:19am

re: #464 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that the geography of Afghanistan favors insurgency far more than that of Ukraine. You can still hide in a mountain cave, but thermal imaging makes it far harder than it used to be to hide in the forest.

Right and this is also what favored the Finns in the Winter War. Afghanistan’s terrain makes it perfectly suited for a long lasting guerillla war with no suitable end in sight.

472 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:50:41am

re: #458 FemNaziBitch

I grew up with all that and I don’t feel that chill.

I fear the ghost of the cold more than I fear any real threat.

The Cold War was before my time; I was 5 when the Wall fell, but I still have memories of seeing the photographs on the evening news.

473 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:51:35am

re: #472 thedopefishlives

The Cold War was before my time; I was 5 when the Wall fell, but I still have memories of seeing the photographs on the evening news.

My first real international affairs memories are of the early years of the Balkan wars. That and Rabin’s assassination as well as the trouble in Haiti.

474 makeitstop  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:51:41am

re: #449 Dr Lizardo

Large supra-national military organizations deserve weekends too, ya know!!

//////

I doubt that there’s nothing going on right now, in anticipation of the ‘official’ meeting..

475 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:51:42am

re: #472 thedopefishlives

The Cold War was before my time; I was 5 when the Wall fell, but I still have memories of seeing the photographs on the evening news.

Everything was black and white thinking.

just like Fox News.

476 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:52:03am

re: #452 HappyWarrior

Quite remarkable that all this happens as we approach WWI’s centennial by the way.

Hey, I’m not that old!

Oh, wait.

477 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:52:06am

re: #470 Teukka

I don’t see any imminent threat of a hot war. I just hate to see history go backwards to high tensions among superpowers. So much is gained by not having that.

478 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:52:09am

re: #464 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that the geography of Afghanistan favors insurgency far more than that of Ukraine. You can still hide in a mountain cave, but thermal imaging makes it far harder than it used to be to hide in the forest.

True that. But still, the Russians having to worry about facing a population that’s willing to attack them at any given second is not a bad thing.

479 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:53:01am

re: #464 Dark_Falcon

The problem is that the geography of Afghanistan favors insurgency far more than that of Ukraine. You can still hide in a mountain cave, but thermal imaging makes it far harder than it used to be to hide in the forest.

Afghans also have a cultural advantage. Their country has been a war torn shithole for a very long time. People are used to it, fighters are hardened. They also have a religious component that helps as a motivator. I have no doubt Ukrainians are tough folks but they are unaccustomed to the hardhships involved with living in a war zone. They might get used to it.

480 Gus  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:53:15am

re: #474 makeitstop

I doubt that there’s nothing going on right now, in anticipation of the ‘official’ meeting..

Yep. Gotta book the luxury rooms at the local luxury hotels; limousines to line up; catering; other amenities to plan.

481 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:53:36am

re: #477 Political Atheist

I don’t see any imminent threat of a hot war. I just hate to see history go backwards to high tensions among superpowers. So much is gained by not having that.

Or constant squabbles among small groups resulting in the loss of lives.

482 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:54:00am

re: #480 Gus

Yep. Gotta book the luxury rooms at the local luxury hotels; limousines to line up; catering; other amenities to plan.

lawyers need time to prep

483 Gus  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:54:57am

re: #482 FemNaziBitch

lawyers need time to prep

Why? Greenwald wrote his response to Pando in 30 minutes. //

484 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:55:04am

re: #481 FemNaziBitch

If you do not know history you are doomed to repeat it.

485 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:55:21am

re: #476 wrenchwench

Hey, I’m not that old!

Oh, wait.

Ha!

486 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:55:55am

re: #469 Targetpractice

What do you believe NATO should be doing? This isn’t an NATO nation we’re talking here, and so far Russia has taken no steps beyond mobilization and positioning of forces. Really, Putin has tied their hands to a degree by framing their actions as protecting Russian citizens within Ukraine’s borders and addressing the recent collapse of a formally elected government.

Yeah, so far the Russian resolution looks like a protective move for Crimea. Once they secure Crimea, which shouldn’t take long, they might expand or they might not.

487 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:56:05am

re: #473 HappyWarrior

My first real international affairs memories are of the early years of the Balkan wars. That and Rabin’s assassination as well as the trouble in Haiti.

Desert Storm was mine. I remember Stormin’ Norman and the mighty (and still relatively new) Abrams tanks.

488 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:56:15am

re: #484 PhillyPretzel

If you do not know history you are doomed to repeat it.

Yes. I hope all involved know their history. I have a feeling the people in the Ukraine are not the backwoods people they and their counterparts in the West were at the early part of the 20th century.

489 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:56:23am

re: #479 Killgore Trout

Afghans also have a cultural advantage. Their country has been a war torn shithole for a very long time. People are used to it, fighters are hardened. They also have a religious component that helps as a motivator. I have no doubt Ukrainians are tough folks but they are unaccustomed to the hardhships involved with living in a war zone. They might get used to it.

Afghanistan though IIRC was pretty stable before the Soviet invasion in the 70’s if I understand correctly.

490 Gus  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:56:36am
491 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:56:48am

re: #487 thedopefishlives

Desert Storm was mine. I remember Stormin’ Norman and the mighty (and still relatively new) Abrams tanks.

I think I may remember bits and pieces of that.

492 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:57:01am

re: #488 FemNaziBitch

Yes. I too hope they know their history.

493 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:57:08am

re: #467 ObserverArt

I know one thing. If I wanted everyone thinking I am going to just pass out lolly-pops, I would post it on the ‘net and say I am doing it on Monday, March 3rd. Meanwhile out the back door are going the jaw busters.

Busting Putin’s jaw is something I don’t think we can risk trying. Russia has enough conventional power to make trying to stop them expensive in both money and blood. And at the 8th and last, Putin still has the nukes.

494 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:57:45am

re: #463 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

And as opposed to a strongly worded letter, you think that the EU or the US should…

(crickets).

Heh. Non-committal is met with non-committal.

Oh for that reflecting pool…what is that, a flower?

495 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:58:22am

re: #494 ObserverArt

Heh. Non-committal is met with non-committal.

Oh for that reflecting pool…what is that, a flower?

a narcissus?

496 Bubblehead II  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:58:29am

Was browsing for anything on this mess coming out of China and ran across this little Gem. The Chinese have got to be very unhappy with Putin about now.

National Geographic article from Sept. of last year.

Why countries-like-china-want-foreign-farm-land.

But the Eastern European country doesn’t entirely lose, either. The deal will funnel $2.6 billion into Ukraine annually for the next 50 years. China will also send seeds and fertilizer, as well as build some vital infrastructure in Crimea, an autonomous part of Ukraine.

If this deal was finalized, Putin’s actions are putting a source of food for China at risk.

497 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:59:19am

re: #486 Killgore Trout

Yeah, so far the Russian resolution looks like a protective move for Crimea. Once they secure Crimea, which shouldn’t take long, they might expand or they might not.

Which is rather the point, right now, Russia hasn’t taken any move in Ukraine besides effectively seizing Crimea, which is an autonomous region whose leadership is in dispute. NATO really can’t take any action at this time that wouldn’t appear as if it were preparing for war with Russia.

498 Gus  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:59:20am

OMG! We must defend poor old NATO from criticism! [Faints.]

499 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:59:24am

re: #496 Bubblehead II

Was browsing for anything on this mess coming out of China and ran across this little Gem. The Chinese have got to be very unhappy with Putin about now.

National Geographic article from Sept. of last year.

Why countries-like-china-want-foreign-farm-land.

But the Eastern European country doesn’t entirely lose, either. The deal will funnel $2.6 billion into Ukraine annually for the next 50 years. >China will also send seeds and fertilizer, as well as build some vital infrastructure in Crimea, an autonomous part of Ukraine.

If this deal was finalized, Putin’s actions are putting a source of food for China at risk.

I was just wondering about China. The sleeping dragon which really hasn’t been sleeping.

500 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 8:59:26am


We’ll at least wait until Monday. NATO won’t be back in the office until then!

501 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:00:05am

re: #498 Gus

OMG! We must defend poor old NATO from criticism! [Faints.]

Same question to you, Gus. What do you think NATO should be doing right now?

502 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:00:05am

re: #498 Gus

::: waving smelling salts under Gus’s nose :::

503 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:00:17am

re: #500 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]


We’ll at least wait until Monday. NATO won’t be back in the office until then!

Yeah, I think they aren’t going to be sleeping much this weekend. …

504 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:00:50am

re: #498 Gus

OMG! We must defend poor old NATO from criticism! [Faints.]

Who is saying that, though? I feel like I’m missing something.

505 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:00:56am

Alert! Alert! Article 4 violation triggers automatic meeting schedule first thing Monday morning! All hands on deck at your earliest convenience!
Lithuania to invoke NATO treaty on Ukraine

Lithuania’s FM Linkevicius has said Russia’s decision to deploy forces in Ukraine means “Nato, art. 4 becomes valid,” referring to article 4 of the Nato treaty, EUObserver.com reported.

The article says Nato members must meet for consultations if “the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the parties is threatened.”

506 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:01:36am

re: #493 Dark_Falcon

Busting Putin’s jaw is something I don’t think we can risk trying. Russia has enough conventional power to make trying to stop them expensive in both money and blood. And at the 8th and last, Putin still has the nukes.

Jaw busters is an allegory Dark. I know you take things literally, but in this case I meant it to say NATO may announce something for Monday, but I do not take an announcement to mean nothing is going on today.

I do not believe everything I see released as a report on the ‘net. I am old-school that way. And what a better tool to fool than the ‘net, right?

507 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:02:36am

re: #491 HappyWarrior

I think I may remember bits and pieces of that.

The images of the burning oil wells in Kuwait during Saddam’s withdrawal are vivid even to this day. Those were the days that started my fascination with air power; my dad took me to a demonstration of the USAF Thunderbirds some time in that period, when they were flying F-16’s.

508 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:02:41am

re: #495 FemNaziBitch

a narcissus?

Just may be!

Glad someone caught that…

: )

509 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:03:52am

One thing the international community does not tolerate is a country killing it’s own people.

Putin knows that.

The only thing that separates any leader from GQKadaffi, Saddam, or Stalin is their willingness to kill their own people.

I think Putin wants history to remember him as a good guy.

He is an international player.

510 Flounder  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:04:24am

re: #499 FemNaziBitch

Why get involved when your “enemies” are killing each other?

511 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:04:45am

re: #507 thedopefishlives

The images of the burning oil wells in Kuwait during Saddam’s withdrawal are vivid even to this day. Those were the days that started my fascination with air power; my dad took me to a demonstration of the USAF Thunderbirds some time in that period, when they were flying F-16’s.

I remember scenes of soldiers in war torn Beirut and Vietnam.

512 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:05:03am

re: #479 Killgore Trout

Afghans also have a cultural advantage. Their country has been a war torn shithole for a very long time. People are used to it, fighters are hardened. They also have a religious component that helps as a motivator. I have no doubt Ukrainians are tough folks but they are unaccustomed to the hardhships involved with living in a war zone. They might get used to it.

They won’t, if only because Putin is going to be selective in his killing as long as people don’t shoot at the Russian troops. The Euromaidan leaders who can’t flee would likely lose their lives, but ordinary people would not likely be targeted unless they were featured in a prominent photograph (The ‘riot cleric’ would likely be stripped of his status as a priest by a tribunal of Putin-aligned Orthodox bishops, then sent to the gulag).

The gulag is another point in Putin’s favor. Those Ukrainians who are imprisoned would likely be sent to Siberia, far away from any rescue. Even if a subsequent revolt threatened Russian rule, those people would be out of reach and would likely be killed by their captors. Thus they would end up being hostages.

513 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:06:09am

re: #496 Bubblehead II

Was browsing for anything on this mess coming out of China and ran across this little Gem. The Chinese have got to be very unhappy with Putin about now.

National Geographic article from Sept. of last year.

Why countries-like-china-want-foreign-farm-land.

But the Eastern European country doesn’t entirely lose, either. The deal will funnel $2.6 billion into Ukraine annually for the next 50 years. >China will also send seeds and fertilizer, as well as build some vital infrastructure in Crimea, an autonomous part of Ukraine.

If this deal was finalized, Putin’s actions are putting a source of food for China at risk.

Thanks for that. I see China as figuring into this mess. I hope to hear more reports and info like that.

The world in no longer two or three super powers and everyone else. Economics has to figure in and people with money and goods can fight a ‘war’ too.

Got to get something done today…let’s all hope Putin grows a brain…and everyone all around the world helps him. Later!

514 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:07:18am

OT but anyone know of a good handheld GPS for international travel? Something where I can input a location and the GPS could just guide me there? I’d use my phone’s GPS but I don’t want to come down with insane phone bills just because I have a crappy sense of direction.

515 ObserverArt  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:08:44am

re: #498 Gus

OMG! We must defend poor old NATO from criticism! [Faints.]

Where are you seeing that? Or is that another interpretation of something that may not be there?

Edit…yeah I said I was going, but I was backtracking and saw this…

516 PhillyPretzel  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:08:46am

re: #514 HappyWarrior

Try Amazon. Here is a link. amazon.com

517 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:08:49am

re: #510 Flounder

Why get involved when your “enemies” are killing each other?

Russia isn’t really the enemy for China, at least not right now. And I doubt that Putin will nullify the Chinese contracts to farmland in the Crimea. He’s got no reason to do so, since those lands growing food for China give Russia leverage against any Chinese expansionism.

518 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:09:28am

re: #514 HappyWarrior

OT but anyone know of a good handheld GPS for international travel? Something where I can input a location and the GPS could just guide me there? I’d use my phone’s GPS but I don’t want to come down with insane phone bills just because I have a crappy sense of direction.

tomtom.com

Tom-Tom unless you need China.

519 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:11:33am

re: #516 PhillyPretzel

Try Amazon. Here is a link. amazon.com

Thanks.

520 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:11:54am

re: #518 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

tomtom.com

Tom-Tom unless you need China.

Thanks.

521 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:12:46am

I’m not quite sure how Russia decision would prompt Lithuania to invoke Article IV; maybe I’m not seeing something…….

522 The War TARDIS  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:15:03am

re: #473 HappyWarrior

My were the same. Bosnia.

I remember the TV from back then.

523 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:16:16am

Meeting Alert! UN springs into “informal” weekend action!
UN Security Council to meet on Ukraine Saturday

The President of the Security Council said informal consultations among council members would begin at 2 p.m. (1900 GMT) Saturday.
…
As a permanent member, Russia has veto power on any council resolution.

Maybe the plan is to bore them into submission with dull meetings.

524 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:16:18am

re: #522 The War TARDIS

My were the same. Bosnia.

I remember the TV from back then.

Yeah I remember the bombing of the Chinese embassy and the ensuing controversy.

525 thedopefishlives  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:17:36am

re: #522 The War TARDIS

My were the same. Bosnia.

I remember the TV from back then.

Milosevic was a real scumbag. I remember listening to Rush Limbaugh ranting and raving about ol’ Slobo.

526 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:17:51am

Good fucking lord, if I wanted to listen to bitching about “something not being done,” I’d go over to FR or BB. Unless you’ve got some suggestion as to how NATO or the UN could take action right now that would fall short of going to war with Russia, then you’re on the same intellectual level as the wingnuts who are criticizing the President for being “weak.”

527 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:18:21am

re: #521 Dr Lizardo

I’m not quite sure how Russia decision would prompt Lithuania to invoke Article IV; maybe I’m not seeing something…….

It’s probably just a bureaucratic technicality invoked to trigger a meeting.

528 Bubblehead II  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:18:57am

re: #517 Dark_Falcon

Russia isn’t really the enemy for China, at least not right now. And I doubt that Putin will nullify the Chinese contracts to farmland in the Crimea. He’s got no reason to do so, since those lands growing food for China give Russia leverage against any Chinese expansionism.

Russia and China aren’t exactly what you would call best friends. And since those contracts were drawn up between China and the Ukraine, not Russia, the Chinese might just might say screw it, we don’t want to raise crops in the middle of a combat zone and look elsewhere to raise their food..

529 makeitstop  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:19:14am

All I’m seeing from my Facebook wingnuts today is

1. Criticize Obama
2. Pine for Reagan

I keep asking them what options they consider viable, but they keep defaulting to complaining bout Obama and pining for Regana.

I asked one what he thought Reagan would do in this situation and was told it didn’t matter, because he’d say something tough and Putin would back off.

It might be a good day to avoid Facebook.

530 The War TARDIS  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:19:37am

re: #505 Killgore Trout

Well, that’s unexpected.

Thought it would be Poland.

re: #509 FemNaziBitch

Little late for that. Look how he had Litvinenko killed.

531 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:19:54am

Someone mentioned Ken Cuccinelli about 80 posts upthread (I had to play catch-up). He just popped up again:

Virginia attorneys start firm to defend good guys with guns

Former Virginia attorney general and 2013 gubernatorial candidate Ken Cuccinelli has created a law firm to “defend those who defend themselves.”

The Virginia Self Defense Law firm is dedicated to providing legal representation to law-abiding gun owners who use their firearm in self-defense or find themselves being harassed by law enforcement for exercising their constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

Essentially, the way the firm works is that gun owners can keep the firm on retainer for less than $10 per month, which covers the cost of all legal fees related to the case except for expert witnesses and bail money (if applicable).

“A legal retainer with Virginia Self Defense Law costs as little as $8.33 a month — less than half the cost of a hunting license,” states the website. “Don’t be a victim! Don’t let these realities become your family’s fiscal nightmare!”

For Cuccinelli and his partners, the service is there to prevent gun owners from going bankrupt due to the high costs associated with fighting for one’s 2A rights when they are challenged in court.

Monthly retainer fees for in case a CCW permit holder has to shoot someone. That smells fishy to me.

532 Targetpractice  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:21:26am

re: #531 Dark_Falcon

Someone mentioned Ken Cuccinelli about 80 posts upthread (I had to play catch-up). He just popped up again:

Virginia attorneys start firm to defend good guys with guns

Monthly retainer fees for in case a CCW permit holder has to shoot someone. That smells fishy to me.

What is this, insurance for when you end up killing somebody because you’re a paranoid idjit?

533 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:21:33am

re: #531 Dark_Falcon

Someone mentioned Ken Cuccinelli about 80 posts upthread (I had to play catch-up). He just popped up again:

Virginia attorneys start firm to defend good guys with guns

Monthly retainer fees for in case a CCW permit holder has to shoot someone. That smells fishy to me.

Just what George Zimmerman needs.

534 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:22:02am

re: #523 Killgore Trout

Meeting Alert! UN springs into “informal” weekend action!
UN Security Council to meet on Ukraine Saturday

Maybe the plan is to bore them into submission with dull meetings.

That’s 2 days in a row! Is there something going on ?

535 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:22:34am

re: #530 The War TARDIS

I suppose Poland could try to argue that a Russian invasion of Ukraine would pose an immediate threat to its security (refugees, etc). Slovakia, Hungary and Romania could all make similar arguments.

536 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:27:12am

Meanwhile in Venezuela….
Mob Beats National Guard Soldier, Steals Rifle & Gear - Venezuela
Liveleak Video

537 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:27:35am

re: #530 The War TARDIS

Well, that’s unexpected.

Thought it would be Poland.

Little late for that. Look how he had Litvinenko killed.

that’s a little different that mass graves …

538 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:27:58am

re: #534 NJDhockeyfan

That’s 2 days in a row! Is there something going on ?

All these meeting could result in paper cuts, they’d better pace themselves.

539 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:29:24am

re: #537 FemNaziBitch

that’s a little different that mass graves …

Not to mention the international exposure — he wasn’t disappeared

540 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:29:51am

re: #532 Targetpractice

What is this, insurance for when you end up killing somebody because you’re a paranoid idjit?

The example that will be held up will be that of the honest citizen who was forced to shoot to stop the attack by a dangerous armed thug, but was then charged with a crime by an anti-gun liberal district attorney, or because the thug was black and filing charges was done to prevent a riot.

Note: That’s what Chooch is gonna put forward. I’m not saying I agree with it.

541 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:30:00am

re: #538 Killgore Trout

All these meeting could result in paper cuts, they’d better pace themselves.

And instead of having meetings, you feel NATO should be…

(crickets).

542 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:30:46am

Meanwhile in China, holy shit! 27 dead after a man goes on a knife rampage at a train station in Kunming.

bbc.com

543 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:31:27am

re: #508 ObserverArt

Just may be!

Glad someone caught that…

: )

Dear Ole’ Dad was enamored with mythology.

544 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:31:50am

re: #542 Dr Lizardo

Meanwhile in China, holy shit! 27 dead after a man goes on a knife rampage at a train station in Kunming.

bbc.com

HOw many killed in the Ukraine by Russia so far?

545 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:32:47am

re: #534 NJDhockeyfan

That’s 2 days in a row! Is there something going on ?

I hear Congress is going to vote to reprimand the Security Council on Tuesday for meeting too often and making Congress look bad.

Not that Congress could meet on this issue. They’ve got primaries to run in and those babies won’t kiss themselves.

546 Ryan King  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:33:33am

re: #541 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

And instead of having meetings, you feel NATO should be…

(crickets).

Insert Jimmy Carter and UN jokes (here).

547 The War TARDIS  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:34:10am

re: #535 Dr Lizardo

Not to mention, some amount of ethnic solidarity with Ukrainians.

On angle Russia doesn’t want to think about.

The Tatars are Muslim. If they begin to be persecuted, Russia suddenly has to worry about Chechnya II in Crimea, along with other radicals pouring in to fight not just in Crimea, but into the Muslim Border regions like Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushtia, Kabardino-Balkaria, and Karachay-Cherkessia.

548 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:35:06am

Not much analysis from the press aside from hyperbolic headlines and the pundits have the weekend off but here’s a Finish dude with an opinion of what might happen….
Finnish Defence Force expert analyzes escalating Ukraine situation

“The worst-case scenario is that the Crimean administration embarks on a strong drive for independence. In this case, Russia will feel it must protect its own installations and military bases and therefore assume a presence in the Crimea, in effect leading the development towards autonomy. On the other hand, it could turn into a skirmish between the Crimea and Kiev. Either way, Russia will protect its own interests, as the agreement regarding the military base requires.”

Forsström notes that although there is a clear danger that one spark could set off a powder keg; he doesn’t believe that the Ukrainian Coast Guard and the Russian’s Black Sea troops will clash.

“I believe that the threshold to open fire is very high on both sides. I do not see it as likely to happen. As a matter of fact, I see Ukraine’s choice to move its Coast Guard vessels out of the harbour as essentially a protectionist measure. In this way they are not vulnerable to marauding leagues or other groups that may wish to take them over. This way they will remain under the leadership of Kiev,” says Forsström.

549 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:37:13am

re: #542 Dr Lizardo

Meanwhile in China, holy shit! 27 dead after a man goes on a knife rampage at a train station in Kunming.

bbc.com

There have been cases of that many hurt in knife attacks before, but killed? I’ve never heard of a single attacker being able to kill that many people with an edged weapon, not outside of legend.

If that total stands, though, then this story is going to be a pro-gun talking point for years.

550 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:37:14am
Contraception is also the font of many of the deadly social pathologies of our time; the sexual revolution, pornography, divorce and family breakdown, abortion and the mainstreaming of same-sex arrangements including what seems like an inevitable change in the social and legal definition of marriage.

OT, but I just can’t … . .

written by a man

551 Eventual Carrion  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:37:20am

re: #342 Killgore Trout

I don’t think they have much choice. I can’t see how they might successfully stop the Russians from taking the country. I’m open to ideas.

Maybe the Mujaheddin could give them some pointers.

552 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:38:12am

re: #549 Dark_Falcon

There have been cases of that many hurt in knife attacks before, but killed? I’ve never heard of a single attacker being able to kill that many people with an edged weapon, not outside of legend.

If that total stands, though, then this story is going to be a pro-gun talking point for years.

Justifiably, at that.

553 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:38:24am

re: #548 Killgore Trout

Not much analysis from the press aside from hyperbolic headlines and the pundits have the weekend off but here’s a Finish dude with an opinion of what might happen….
Finnish Defence Force expert analyzes escalating Ukraine situation

My take on it is that as long it’s isolated to the Crimean Peninsula, the rest of the world will pretty much look away.

Tanks start rolling into Lviv? Then it’s a problem.

554 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:38:40am

re: #552 Dark_Falcon

Justifiably, at that.

Not in the least bit justifiably.

555 b.d.  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:38:44am

re: #549 Dark_Falcon

There have been cases of that many hurt in knife attacks before, but killed? I’ve never heard of a single attacker being able to kill that many people with an edged weapon, not outside of legend.

If that total stands, though, then this story is going to be a pro-gun talking point for years.

Where was the good guy with a knife?!?!?!?

//

556 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:39:38am

re: #549 Dark_Falcon

There have been cases of that many hurt in knife attacks before, but killed? I’ve never heard of a single attacker being able to kill that many people with an edged weapon, not outside of legend.

If that total stands, though, then this story is going to be a pro-gun talking point for years.

To be honest, 27 dead is mass-shooting territory. That’s a high (and grisly) body count.

557 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:42:00am

re: #549 Dark_Falcon

There have been cases of that many hurt in knife attacks before, but killed? I’ve never heard of a single attacker being able to kill that many people with an edged weapon, not outside of legend.

If that total stands, though, then this story is going to be a pro-gun talking point for years.

Here’s more. Apparently, it was a “group of knife-wielding men” that did the attack.

The state-run Yunnan News said that the men were wearing uniforms when they stormed the railway station and that gunshots were heard after police arrived.

nbcnews.com

558 Ryan King  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:42:05am

re: #555 b.d.

Where was the good guy with a knife?!?!?!?

//

Right here:

559 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:44:13am

re: #553 Dr Lizardo

My take on it is that as long it’s isolated to the Crimean Peninsula, the rest of the world will pretty much look away.

Tanks start rolling into Lviv? Then it’s a problem.

That’s what I’m thinking too but we don’t know what the Russians know. If the Russians think they can safely expand their operation without resistance they’ll do it.

560 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:44:52am

re: #557 Dr Lizardo

Here’s more. Apparently, it was a “group of knife-wielding men” that did the attack.

nbcnews.com

That’s a terrorist attack, I feel sure in saying.

561 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:47:48am

Okay, people…time to enjoy the Saturday. Big storm blew through and the ocean has been putting on quite a show this morning. Please keep track of the war for me and let me know if I miss anything.

562 b.d.  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:47:54am

re: #556 Dr Lizardo

To be honest, 27 dead is mass-shooting territory. That’s a high (and grisly) body count.

It is over 6x the number of people who died in BENGHAZI!!

563 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:48:01am

I don’t think the Ukrainians are going to stand down when the Russians move in.

564 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:48:23am

The Creeping Putinism Doctrine
Kremlin rep says consent to use Russian troops in Ukraine does not mean quick move

565 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:48:32am

That sea wall is 15ft above the water level and 30-40 feet across.

566 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:48:44am

Sen McCain made a statement on the Ukraine Crisis about an hour ago (reported by the BBC):

Every moment that the United States and our allies fail to respond sends the signal to President Putin that he can be even more ambitious and aggressive in his military intervention in Ukraine. There is a range of serious options at our disposal at this time without the use of military force. I call on President Obama to rally our European and NATO allies to make clear what costs Russia will face for its aggression and to impose those consequences without further delay.

567 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:49:36am

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

Sen McCain made a statement on the Ukraine Crisis about an hour ago (reported by the BBC):

Shut.The.Fuck.Up.McCain. You’re not helping.

568 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:49:44am

re: #559 Killgore Trout

That’s what I’m thinking too but we don’t know what the Russians know. If the Russians think they can safely expand their operation without resistance they’ll do it.

Good point. But how do you tell the Russians - privately, of course - that “Yeah, Crimea……OK; we don’t like it, but meh…..what you can do? Cross the Dnieper? Yeah, Moscow disappears in a blinding flash of light and heat.”

Well, maybe with not such……direct language, of course. Because if someone said that shit, oh man….Russia would burst a collective blood vessel.

569 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:50:27am

re: #562 b.d.

It is over 6x the number of people who died in BENGHAZI!!

Wingnut talking point for March 1st 2014.

570 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:50:33am

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

What are the range of options, then, McCain?

Why is it that none of these critics will actually go on record saying what they want? Don’t they realize how transparent they are?

Unless that’s not the full quote, of course.

571 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:51:25am

It’s very easy for McCain to second guess the administration when he’s not the one having to make those decisions.

572 darthstar  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:51:50am

Love this. Okay…leaving now.

573 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:52:36am
In terms of personality, I wouldn’t say there is one type of personality, but I would say there are certain characteristics of thinking that make a person more prone or susceptible. For instance, low tolerance for ambiguity seems to cut across most if not all extremist ideologies; this goes along with a certain type of concrete thinking where a person wants to categorize things as “black and white” rather than deal with so-called “gray areas.”

At the most fundamental level that’s what most of these movements are all really based on — oversimplifying a highly complicated world — and that’s a powerful thing to offer people, especially those who feel lost or are looking for some easy answers. Now, obviously, a lot of people who have a low tolerance for ambiguity are not involved in extremist groups, so it’s certainly not a perfect relationship.

also Paged

574 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:53:02am

re: #570 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

What are the range of options, then, McCain?

Why is it that none of these critics will actually go on record saying what they want? Don’t they realize how transparent they are?

Unless that’s not the full quote, of course.

Seize all Russian business assets in the US and the EU.

Seize the bank accounts of Putin and his oligarchy buddies.

Immediately expel Russia from the G8.

Visa and travel bans.

575 allegro  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:53:11am

re: #566 Dark_Falcon

Sen McCain made a statement on the Ukraine Crisis about an hour ago (reported by the BBC):

One question: what options are those? Please show your work.

576 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:53:37am

re: #571 HappyWarrior

It’s very easy for McCain to second guess the administration when he’s not the one having to make those decisions.

I’d actually be just happy with him second-guessing in a real way: Saying what he’d rather Obama do. All this vague “Why aren’t they doing something” bullshit is really tiresome if you’re not willing to say what you think should actually be done, as is the bizarre pretense that Obama and his administration are just sitting around doing nothing. McCain knows that’s not true.

577 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:54:39am

re: #568 Dr Lizardo

Good point. But how do you tell the Russians - privately, of course - that “Yeah, Crimea……OK; we don’t like it, but meh…..what you can do? Cross the Dnieper? Yeah, Moscow disappears in a blinding flash of light and heat.”

Well, maybe with not such……direct language, of course. Because if someone said that shit, oh man….Russia would burst a collective blood vessel.

I think there’s a not so secret diplomatic code for these kinds of things. Despite the headlines yesterday, Obama’s speech gave a pretty clear signal that military response isn’t being considered for now. I’m sure there are more clear backchannel forms of communication. These things can get a bit dangerous if there’s a miscommunication, misunderstanding or if the Russians get too ambitious. They probably have a decent idea of where our real “red line” is and how much they can get away with.

578 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:56:26am

re: #574 Dr Lizardo

Seize all Russian business assets in the US and the EU.

Seize the bank accounts of Putin and his oligarchy buddies.

Immediately expel Russia from the G8.

Visa and travel bans.

Thank you for having the self-respect and character to actually take a position. It’s sadly rare.

If we and the EU did what you suggest, Russia would almost certainly cut off gas supplies to Europe, as well as likewise seizing assets, etc. This would probably prompt an immediate world-wide recession. Do you think this is accurate?

579 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:57:01am

re: #549 Dark_Falcon

There have been cases of that many hurt in knife attacks before, but killed? I’ve never heard of a single attacker being able to kill that many people with an edged weapon, not outside of legend.

If that total stands, though, then this story is going to be a pro-gun talking point for years.

Gun control talking point? Not as much as just a screaming salient example of how dangerous defenselessness is when killers arrive. Never mind the gun just a good size club can take a knife wielding man down and probably won’t even kill him.

580 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:58:10am

re: #577 Killgore Trout

I think there’s a not so secret diplomatic code for these kinds of things. Despite the headlines yesterday, Obama’s speech gave a pretty clear signal that military response isn’t being considered for now. I’m sure there are more clear backchannel forms of communication. These things can get a bit dangerous if there’s a miscommunication, misunderstanding or if the Russians get too ambitious. They probably have a decent idea of where our real “red line” is and how much they can get away with.

More than a few conflicts have started because one side either failed to communicate their ‘red line’ clearly, or the other side thought, “Ah, it’s the biggest bluff ever - they’re full of shit” and then - BOOM.

581 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:58:56am

re: #576 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’d actually be just happy with him second-guessing in a real way: Saying what he’d rather Obama do. All this vague “Why aren’t they doing something” bullshit is really tiresome if you’re not willing to say what you think should actually be done, as is the bizarre pretense that Obama and his administration are just sitting around doing nothing. McCain knows that’s not true.

His real aim is less to get something done at this stage than to aid his friend and ally Lindsey Graham by setting Graham up to lambast Barack Obama. Graham has a chance to avoid a primary run-off in South Carolina, but to do that he needs to attack Obama constantly and show the president no respect.

582 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:59:22am

re: #581 Dark_Falcon

So yet again, McCain and the GOP put party ahead of country.

583 freetoken  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 9:59:47am

Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran Crimea

584 NJDhockeyfan  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:00:17am

Must have been only been good for 20 years.

585 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:00:32am

All government agencies in Sevastopol support decision to disobey Kiev

“I can say this with absolute confidence. We were supported by both police and Berkut [anti-riot police unit],” he said.

The mayor also urged the commanders of Ukrainian Navy units to disobey the new authorities in Kiev. “After all, they took an oath of allegiance to the supreme commander-in-chief… we would like to see them among us,” he said referring to the military.

Looks like the new Ukrainian government might lose its navy.

586 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:00:47am

re: #578 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Thank you for having the self-respect and character to actually take a position. It’s sadly rare.

If we and the EU did what you suggest, Russia would almost certainly cut off gas supplies to Europe, as well as likewise seizing assets, etc. This would probably prompt an immediate world-wide recession. Do you think this is accurate?

Probably would. But it would hurt Russia quite badly as well. They are extremely reliant on gas sales to Europe. They could sustain that for a year or two, but not much beyond that.

Europe is trying it’s damnedest to diversify it’s gas sources; the Persian Pipeline (Iran to Europe via Turkey) is in the works, and it’s supposed to go online later this year, with any luck, that is. The Russians aren’t happy about it, as it’s projected to blow a $20 billion hole in their budget.

587 bratwurst  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:01:23am

re: #582 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

So yet again, McCain and the GOP put party ahead of country.

Can’t you read the sign?

588 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:01:31am

re: #580 Dr Lizardo

More than a few conflicts have started because one side either failed to communicate their ‘red line’ clearly, or the other side thought, “Ah, it’s the biggest bluff ever - they’re full of shit” and then - BOOM.

Agreed, let’s hope everybody gets this right.

589 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:02:02am

re: #584 NJDhockeyfan

[Embedded content]


Must have been only for 20 years.

Must have been abrogated at Putins whim. FTFY

590 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:03:39am

re: #582 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

So yet again, McCain and the GOP put party ahead of country.

I’d argue that providing support for Lindsey Graham is serving the country, because it keeps a sane man in that Senate seat and it keeps a wingnut out of it.

591 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:04:39am

re: #590 Dark_Falcon

I’d argue that providing support for Lindsey Graham >is serving the country, because it keeps a sane man in that Senate seat and it keeps a wingnut out of it.

ARE YOU SAYING LINDSEY GRAHAM IS SANE?

592 gwangung  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:05:22am

re: #580 Dr Lizardo

More than a few conflicts have started because one side either failed to communicate their ‘red line’ clearly, or the other side thought, “Ah, it’s the biggest bluff ever - they’re full of shit” and then - BOOM.

Hm. Wouldn’t accurate intelligence gathering help that?

593 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:05:48am

re: #586 Dr Lizardo

Probably would. But it would hurt Russia quite badly as well. They are extremely reliant on gas sales to Europe. They could sustain that for a year or two, but not much beyond that.

I don’t disagree with that at all.

But then, if you agree that this would cause a worldwide depression—on top of the semi-depression we’re still in—you think that this issue is worth that? The very real costs in human suffering of that depression, and the instability in other nations it would cause?

594 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:06:35am

re: #591 FemNaziBitch

ARE YOU SAYING LINDSEY GRAHAM IS SANE?

Yes ma’am, I am.

595 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:07:17am

bbl

596 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:08:02am

re: #590 Dark_Falcon

I’d argue that providing support for Lindsey Graham >is serving the country, because it keeps a sane man in that Senate seat and it keeps a wingnut out of it.

That is an eye-rollingly lame stretch. Let’s look at that: Your actual argument is that attacking Obama with mendacious backbiting whinging is worthwhile because it keeps an even more insane GOP member from taking over Graham’s seat.

That’s your argument. That the GOP is such a radicalized party that its members serve the public good when they attack the president in order to keep the wingnuts of their party under control.

What a state the GOP is in. The best they can do, in your argument, is protect the US from their own worst selves, but they have to attack the US president baselessly in order to do it.

597 Bubblehead II  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:09:26am

re: #586 Dr Lizardo

Probably would. But it would hurt quite badly as well. They are extremely reliant on gas sales to Europe. They could sustain that for a year or two, but not much beyond that.

Europe is trying it’s damnedest to diversify it’s gas sources; the Persian Pipeline (Iran to Europe via Turkey) is in the works, and it’s supposed to go online later this year, with any luck, that is. The Russians aren’t happy about it, as it’s projected to blow a $20 billion hole in their budget.

Yep. And this will help reduce their dependance on Russian gas.

Europe Nears First Commercial Shale Gas Production in Poland

598 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:11:59am

re: #581 Dark_Falcon

His real aim is less to get something done at this stage than to aid his friend and ally Lindsey Graham by setting Graham up to lambast Barack Obama. Graham has a chance to avoid a primary run-off in South Carolina, but to do that he needs to attack Obama constantly and show the president no respect.

So he’s blasting Obama just to cover Graham? Fuck that shit. I’m sorry that the only way you can apparently survive in your party these days is being anti-Obama as possible. Obdi’s right. How about McCain offer a real solution rather than being dishonest for once?

599 Political Atheist  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:12:49am

re: #596 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Tried to answer your question in the ” What if we” Page Obdicut.

600 Eventual Carrion  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:14:05am

re: #511 FemNaziBitch

I remember scenes of soldiers in war torn Beirut and Vietnam.

Same here. Then Munich Olympics, Entebbe, and on and on.

601 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:14:13am

re: #596 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

No, my argument is the majority of the voting public of South Carolina hates Barack Obama and thus the alternative to Graham is someone else who hates Obama as much as that majority does.

It’s not the party as a whole, its that messed up state. But since as a practical matter South Carolina cannot have that Senate seat taken away, the Iuestion is “Who’s going to fill it: Lindsey Graham or some radical?” i favor Graham in that contest.

602 jaunte  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:14:59am
603 Killgore Trout  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:15:45am

Security cameras show moment armed men seize government building in the Crimean city of Simferopol.
Youtube Video

I like how they break down the door only to be flummoxed by the turnstile.

604 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:16:02am

re: #593 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I don’t disagree with that at all.

But then, if you agree that this would cause a worldwide depression—on top of the semi-depression we’re still in—you think that this issue is worth that? The very real costs in human suffering of that depression, and the instability in other nations it would cause?

Checking Russia’s attempt to rebuild its empire and becoming a menace to threaten Europe is, in my opinion, worth it.

We’ve seen this movie before, in the 1930s in the heart of Europe, and apparently, no one could be bothered to do much of anything besides “sternly worded memorandums” and fatuous peace conferences. And where did that get the world - we all know.

There’s a reason ‘appeasement’ is a dirty word, and there’s a reason that Neville Chamberlain has become the byword for vacillating politicians.

There are times when action must be taken, even at some cost, before the situation becomes infinitely worse. Whether this is one of those situations is entirely up to the Russians and their next moves.

I believe in peace; it is the necessary foundation for modern civilization. But I do not believe in peace at any price. John Stuart Mill sums up my attitude pretty well.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

There are times when good men must stand up for what is right and what is just. And when I see Russia and its historical imperial ambitions flaring up again, I say, time that nip it in the bud.

605 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:16:07am

re: #597 Bubblehead II

Yep. And this will help reduce their dependance on Russian gas.

Europe Nears First Commercial Shale Gas Production in Poland

From that article:

Best Frack

The results from the Lewino well are a “major milestone in the process of commercialization of shale gas in Poland,” McKee told reporters at a briefing in Warsaw. San Leon may bring the well to commercial production by October, after it conducts flow tests, he said. United Oilfield Services is the nation’s largest provider of hydraulic fracturing, also known as fracking.

“This is the best vertical frack to date,” said Fanning. “There’s read-across to the whole of the Baltic Basin. This is good for San Leon, and it’s good for everybody drilling in Poland.”

Shale gas is produced by injecting rock formations with a mixture of water and chemicals at high pressure, a process known as hydraulic fracturing. Gas begins to flow out of the fractures created in the rock and through the well once the pressurized fluid is removed.

Removing Fluid

San Leon had not finished removing fracking fluid from the well when it achieved the flow rate, according to the statement. It estimated a potential flow rate of 200,000 to 400,000 standard cubic feet per day if the clean-up of fracturing fluid from the well was completed. That’s equivalent to as much as 4 million cubic meters per year, or 0.03 percent of Poland’s fuel use.

San Leon will drill and hydraulically stimulate a horizontal well in the Lewino area to test the entire vertical extent of the Ordovician interval with each frack and prove commercial flow rates, according to the statement. In the U.S., horizontal wells typically yield between seven and 30 times the production rate and recovery of vertical wells in the same formation.

That’s right, Poland is frackin’, baby!

606 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:16:22am

re: #601 Dark_Falcon

No, my argument is the majority of the voting public of South Carolina hates Barack Obama and thus the alternative to Graham is someone else who hates Obama as much as that majority does.

It’s not the party as a whole, its that messed up state. But since as a practical matter South Carolina cannot have that Senate seat taken away, the Iuestion is “Who’s going to fill it: Lindsey Graham or some radical?” i favor Graham in that contest.

Nothing you said contradicts anything I said in the least.

607 HappyWarrior  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:21:26am

re: #601 Dark_Falcon

No, my argument is the majority of the voting public of South Carolina hates Barack Obama and thus the alternative to Graham is someone else who hates Obama as much as that majority does.

It’s not the party as a whole, its that messed up state. But since as a practical matter South Carolina cannot have that Senate seat taken away, the Iuestion is “Who’s going to fill it: Lindsey Graham or some radical?” i favor Graham in that contest.

Is it only South Carolina though? I mean look at what happened to Lugar in Indiana or how Akin got nominated in the first place in Missouri. Your party’s got deep rooted problems and it’s pathetic that the solution is for the “sane” members of the party to act “insanely anti-Obama” to survive politically. How about your party base man up and deal with the fact that Barack Obama is our 44th president and that while they don’t have to like him, their whole platform should not revolve around making him a failure as president.

608 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:22:06am

re: #604 Dr Lizardo

Checking Russia’s attempt to rebuild its empire and becoming a menace to threaten Europe is, in my opinion, worth it.

We’ve seen this movie before, in the 1930s in the heart of Europe, and apparently, no one could be bothered to do much of anything besides “sternly worded memorandums” and fatuous peace conferences. And where did that get the world - we all know.

You actually think that Russia wants to conquer Europe? Really?

There is no similarity between WWI-exhausted Europe in the 30s, reeling from an absolute devastation of their countries and their citizenry from that brutal war, and the current situation in Europe. Mocking them for being loathe to engage in war again so quickly after they’d fed so many to the meatgrinder is simplistic. Moreover, there is simply no analogy to the current state.

There’s a reason ‘appeasement’ is a dirty word, and there’s a reason that Neville Chamberlain has become the byword for vacillating politicians.

And Chamberalain may be unjustly reviled because the UK was simply not ready to fight at the point he negotiated.

There are times when good men must stand up for what is right and what is just. And when I see Russia and its historical imperial ambitions flaring up again, I say, time that nip it in the bud.

Since I disagree with your idea that Russia is going to try to—or would be remotely capable of—conquering Europe, your argument doesn’t work for me.

609 Aqua Obama  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:25:57am

re: #608 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Okay, hypothetically speaking, how far can Russia go before you would feel a response is necessary?

610 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:29:13am

re: #609 Aqua Obama

Okay, hypothetically speaking, how far can Russia go before you would feel a response is necessary?

There’s no one thing, but semi-obviously killing a lot of Ukrainians in a democidal or genocidal way, but we’d hardly be alone in responding to that.

It’s important to remember that the Ukraine was deeply divided over the EU/Russia thing, and a lot of that difference was regional, with the east being far more pro-Russia than the west of the Ukraine. If we were to go in militarily, we would almost inevitably wind up fighting and killing Ukrainians to free the Ukraine.

611 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:29:44am

re: #608 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

And that’s fine if you don’t agree.

I’m thinking 20 to 50 years ahead. Hopefully, but that point, Russia will have collapsed of its own accord, or at least transitioned to a genuine democratic state that has wholly disavowed its imperial past.

Let’s say what I want to do is hasten the collapse of Russia. I know there’s no guarantee that a collapsed Russia will evolve into a democratic state - indeed, it could turn far more wacky than it is now. And then they can be militarily contained, much as we did during the Cold War.

Most Czechs I know, and I admit, my living here has certainly colored my outlook, are deeply suspicious of the Russians intentions, and the general view is that it’s far better to deal with them now, while they’re still somewhat fragile, then wait until they become like they were at their zenith in the 1960s.

612 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:31:46am

re: #611 Dr Lizardo

I’m sorry, which is it, do you think that Russia is going to be imperialist and threaten Europe, or do you just want to collapse Russia?

613 Eventual Carrion  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:32:43am

re: #578 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Thank you for having the self-respect and character to actually take a position. It’s sadly rare.

If we and the EU did what you suggest, Russia would almost certainly cut off gas supplies to Europe, as well as likewise seizing assets, etc. This would probably prompt an immediate world-wide recession. Do you think this is accurate?

But then again. If the shit hits the fan, how long do you think the Russian pipeline will remain functional across the Ukraine? We have natural gas lines for Tennessee gas running all over Pennsylvania where I live. There is no way to cover all that with security enough to keep it totally safe from determined bombers.

614 Aqua Obama  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:39:25am

Seriously though, nearly everything in that region is going to see anti-corruption and democratic movements subdued for now.

Especially in Russia itself.

615 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:43:31am

re: #612 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

I’m sorry, which is it, do you think that Russia is going to be imperialist and threaten Europe, or do you just want to collapse Russia?

Oops. Shoulda made that clear.

I wish to collapse Russia before they reach the point of imperialist ambitions that may threaten Europe in the future. A collapse will, with any luck, serve as sort of a “reset button” on Russian political culture. A do-over. They had a good chance after the fall of the USSR, but, things didn’t go well. So, here’s another chance for them.

616 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:44:57am

re: #615 Dr Lizardo

Oops. Shoulda made that clear.

I wish to collapse Russia before they reach the point of imperialist ambitions that may threaten Europe in the future. A collapse will, with any luck, serve as sort of a “reset button” on Russian political culture. A do-over. They had a good chance after the fall of the USSR, but, things didn’t go well. So, here’s another chance for them.

Okay. Why do you think that taking Crimea and/or the Ukraine would improve Russia’s stability?

617 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:55:31am

re: #616 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Okay. Why do you think that taking Crimea and/or the Ukraine would improve Russia’s stability?

I don’t think it necessarily would, actually. I have no problem if they take Crimea, but that’s my red line.

Empires are psychological; a successful invasion and conquest of Ukraine would put the wind in their sails - it would give them enormous psychological momentum. A sense of nationalistic pride.

But a defeat in an attempted Russian conquest would do the opposite; it’s a morale-killer. And possibly, it might be enough to bring about a collapse of the Russian government, as the oligarchs and the other politicians who back Putin would realize, “Geez - this guy lead Russia into a debacle.”

Now I know there’s no guaranteed that a Putin replacement would be better, or perhaps more democratically-inclined. Hopefully, it won’t be an absolute loon like Zhironovsky (yeesh).

It’s a risk - a major risk. It could backfire quite spectacularly. But to inflict a defeat on a former empire - one with a rather dubious military history, such as the Battle of the Tsushima Straits as well - that has more or less imperial ambitions and is feeling its oats, that’s worth it. Maybe they’ll finally realize that they’ll always be a second-rate military power, no matter what they do. That they really are a “Colossus with feet of clay”.

And with any luck, they’ll just say, “Fuck it - it’s not worth it” and throw in the towel. And when they drop their imperial ambitions, maybe they’ll finally start on working to make themselves a peaceful, prosperous, and functional democratic state - something they should have done a long time ago.

618 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 10:57:22am

re: #617 Dr Lizardo

I don’t think it necessarily would, actually. I have no problem if they take Crimea, but that’s my red line.

Empires are psychological; a successful invasion and conquest of Ukraine would put the wind in their sails - it would give them enormous psychological momentum. A sense of nationalistic pride.

Okay, I don’t think empires are psychological, so that would be the difference here. I don’t even know what that means.

t’s a risk - a major risk. It could backfire quite spectacularly. But to inflict a defeat on a former empire - one with a rather dubious military history, such as the Battle of the Tsushima Straits as well - that has more or less imperial ambitions and is feeling its oats, that’s worth it. Maybe they’ll finally realize that they’ll always be a second-rate military power, no matter what they do. That they really are a “Colossus with feet of clay”.

I’m sorry, why would they ‘always’ remain anything? I’m not following you at all. Russia could be a first-rate military power, and I’m really confused as to why you think they couldn’t be. Can you explain?

619 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 11:15:18am

re: #618 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Okay, I don’t think empires are psychological, so that would be the difference here. I don’t even know what that means.

I’m sorry, why would they ‘always’ remain anything? I’m not following you at all. Russia could be a first-rate military power, and I’m really confused as to why you think they couldn’t be. Can you explain?

I guess what I mean by empires being psychological is that there’s a certain mindset that exists in imperial countries. A worldview, and it’s generally shared by its leaders and its people. Take away that worldview, and they’ll have to find something else.

Russia could be a first-rate military power. But lack of money is what holds them back, and historically, it has. Look at their disastrous experience in WWI. For a long time, since the Russo-Japanese War, and maybe even before then, Russia looked good on paper, but in reality, its military wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. They rely heavily on quantity over quality. Lately, and to their credit, they’ve been improving. I really don’t know what their training is like for their personnel, so I can’t speak to that, but the quality of their hardware is quite good. Perhaps not entirely up to US standards, but certainly more than adequate.

The best case scenario I’d like to see, and it’ll probably never happen, is one where Russia calls it a day on its dreams of empire and joins the EU. But I don’t see that happening. Until Russia becomes a democratic nation-state that respects international law and doesn’t invade its neighbors on flimsy, cooked-up pretexts, they just need to be reminded again, and again, and again that the age of empires is over. And if that means a kick in the nuts to the Russians every now and then to drive that point home, so be it.

620 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 11:18:20am

re: #619 Dr Lizardo

I guess what I mean by empires being psychological is that there’s a certain mindset that exists in imperial countries. A worldview, and it’s generally shared by its leaders and its people. Take away that worldview, and they’ll have to find something else.

The entire people don’t share this mindview, though. Russia has a lot of internal, highly suppressed conflict. You know that, right?

Russia could be a first-rate military power. But lack of money is what holds them back, and historically, it has. Look at their disastrous experience in WWI. For a long time, since the Russo-Japanese War, and maybe even before then, Russia looked good on paper, but in reality, its military wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. They rely heavily on quantity over quality. Lately, and to their credit, they’ve been improving. I really don’t know what their training is like for their personnel, so I can’t speak to that, but the quality of their hardware is quite good. Perhaps not entirely up to US standards, but certainly more than adequate.

So why did you say they couldn’t be, and would always be second-rate?

The best case scenario I’d like to see, and it’ll probably never happen, is one where Russia calls it a day on its dreams of empire and joins the EU. But I don’t see that happening. Until Russia becomes a democratic nation-state that respects international law and doesn’t invade its neighbors on flimsy, cooked-up pretexts, they just need to be reminded again, and again, and again that the age of empires is over. And if that means a kick in the nuts to the Russians every now and then to drive that point home, so be it.

And this is worth sending the world into a depression every time, or just this time, or what?

621 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 11:29:31am

re: #620 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

The entire people don’t share this mindview, though. Russia has a lot of internal, highly suppressed conflict. You know that, right?

So why did you say they couldn’t be, and would always be second-rate?

And this is worth sending the world into a depression every time, or just this time, or what?

There’s a good deal of internal dissent in Russia, and it’s ruthlessly oppressed. That bothers me a good deal. And you’re right, I should have said that Russia could be a first-rate power, but thus far, well…..they’ve just been unlucky. Except for WWII, where they had the great good fortune to go up against a Commander-in-Chief whose colossal incompetence was Russia’s greatest ally. Hitler’s bungling was worth three or four armored divisions all by itself.

As to the last one - it’s worth it on what I consider unique circumstances. In this case, that “unique circumstance” is defined - for me - as moving outside of the Crimean Peninsula and attempting to conquer the entire territory of Ukraine and install a pro-Russian government in violation of the people of Ukraine’s sovereignty. That cannot stand. I do understand very well that Russia is concerned about its naval facilities. The loss of Crimea would be disastrous from Russia’s point of view. It would be like the US losing Hawaii in WWII to the Japanese.

It’s just my personal point of view. The lesson I learned from my father - a WWII vet - was that when a bully starts pushing people around, he needs to be taken down. Period.

And right now, Russia’s being a bully.

622 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 11:34:08am

re: #621 Dr Lizardo

There’s a good deal of internal dissent in Russia, and it’s ruthlessly oppressed. That bothers me a good deal. And you’re right, I should have said that Russia could be a first-rate power, but thus far, well…..they’ve just been unlucky. Except for WWII, where they had the great good fortune to go up against a Commander-in-Chief whose colossal incompetence was Russia’s greatest ally. Hitler’s bungling was worth three or four armored divisions all by itself.

You are vastly underestimating the Red Army of WWII, and its generals. They did not just win because of Hitler’s incompetence. They were an incredible military on every level.

As to the last one - it’s worth it on what I consider unique circumstances. In this case, that “unique circumstance” is defined - for me - as moving outside of the Crimean Peninsula and attempting to conquer the entire territory of Ukraine and install a pro-Russian government in violation of the people of Ukraine’s sovereignty.

So it’s not because they might threaten Europe, it’s doing this on its own?

was that when a bully starts pushing people around, he needs to be taken down. Period.

And right now, Russia’s being a bully.

The US, both pre-and-post-WWII has been a bully in similar ways, though. Our support of the corrupt South Vietnamese, for example. The US has, both for good and ill, pushed people around.

Your reasons keep changing, from this domino theory to this psychological way to get Russia to collapse to simply saying we should do it in the circumstances of a nation being a bully.

Edit: And it’s fine that there’s these different reasons, I just want to know if it’s, like, a medley of all of these, or if some are more important, or what.

623 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 11:51:47am

re: #622 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

You are vastly underestimating the Red Army of WWII, and its generals. They did not just win because of Hitler’s incompetence. They were an incredible military on every level.

So it’s not because they might threaten Europe, it’s doing this on its own?

The US, both pre-and-post-WWII has been a bully in similar ways, though. Our support of the corrupt South Vietnamese, for example. The US has, both for good and ill, pushed people around.

Your reasons keep changing, from this domino theory to this psychological way to get Russia to collapse to simply saying we should do it in the circumstances of a nation being a bully.

Edit: And it’s fine that there’s these different reasons, I just want to know if it’s, like, a medley of all of these, or if some are more important, or what.

It’s a medley of these reasons; they all come into play - it’s not just one thing. And you’re right, the US has been a bully in its history, and I find that just as objectionable and loathsome as when any else does it. It bugs me. And I didn’t mean to create the impression that the Soviet Red Army or its generals were lacking in any way, shape, or form. They and the Russians in general bore the brunt of German aggression, and they overcame it magnificently. It was the Red Army that broke the back of the German war machine after all, and they paid one hell of a price in doing so. More than any nation before or since.

624 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 11:54:21am

re: #623 Dr Lizardo

Okay. So that whole bit of yours about reminding Russia it’d never be a first-rate military power, that’s not among your assemblage of reasons anymore, right?

So it’s because they’re a bully, and because they’re going to threaten Europe, and because they have a psychological idea of empire and if we stop them then they’ll collapse? I’m really, really leery about that last part, that kind of psychoanalysis of nations, thing. That seems more like a hope than an analysis.

625 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 12:05:30pm

re: #624 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

Okay. So that whole bit of yours about reminding Russia it’d never be a first-rate military power, that’s not among your assemblage of reasons anymore, right?

So it’s because they’re a bully, and because they’re going to threaten Europe, and because they have a psychological idea of empire and if we stop them then they’ll collapse? I’m really, really leery about that last part, that kind of psychoanalysis of nations, thing. That seems more like a hope than an analysis.

It is more hope than anything, and you’re quite right to be leery of it - after all, there’s no guarantee it would succeed or even turn out the way I hope it would. I’m an idealist, and I confess, while I can be ruthlessly pragmatic when I need to be, I often let my idealism get in the way. It’s the #1 reason I’d probably be a really lousy President. As more than a few of my closer Czech friends have pointed out, my ideas are based not always on a objective analysis, but on an idealistic view of what I want humanity to become. As a good friend of mine (rightly) pointed out to me, “That sounds like a lot like Lenin. Or Mao” and I won’t disagree with her.

It’s just my opinion. My idealistic opinion in this case, and in being brutally honest with myself, I know full well my ideas - if implemented - would likely cause a whole lotta trouble. But on the other hand, the impulsive risk-taker in me says, “Hey….why the fuck not? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.”

626 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 12:14:42pm

re: #625 Dr Lizardo

But your idealistic risk, your ‘venture’, would, you agree, mean a worldwide depression. That has real, real costs in human suffering and even death, and the destabilizing of countries.

627 Dr Lizardo  Sat, Mar 1, 2014 12:24:57pm

re: #626 Fairly Sure I’m Still Obdicut

But your idealistic risk, your ‘venture’, would, you agree, mean a worldwide depression. That has real, real costs in human suffering and even death, and the destabilizing of countries.

I know it would. It’s a Catch-22, and I don’t envy President Obama, or SecDef Hagel, or Chancellor Merkel right now, because Putin’s actions have likely given the Western leaders a king-sized migraine right about now.

In the end, perhaps nothing can be done.

But what if Russia doesn’t stop at Ukraine? What if they keep going? We all assume Putin is a rational actor; if he’s not, there’s going to be a big problem. He may just have the appearance of a rational actor.

This is the concern of the Poles, the Slovaks, the Hungarians, even the Czechs. And it’s a legitimate concern.


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