Lebo: Using ‘Academic Freedom’ to Keep God in the Science Classroom

Science • Views: 3,646

Some LGF readers have been asking, “Hey, why are you opposed to these ‘academic freedom’ bills? Do you hate academic freedom? What’s wrong with teaching kids all sides of the evolution controversy?”

Before continuing, this needs to be said: there is no “evolution controversy,” except the bogus one ginned up by dishonest organizations like the Discovery Institute and “Answers in Genesis.” The scientific theory of evolution has been analyzed, discussed, investigated, tested, and debated for 150 years, and in all that time not a single challenge has proven the theory wrong. On the contrary, evolution is now the basis of many branches of inquiry, resulting in scientific and medical breakthroughs that would have seemed like magic only a few decades ago. Darwin’s theory has proven itself in the very harshest of public arenas — the arena of science, in which, if you get something wrong, hundreds (if not thousands) of your peers are ready to pounce on your mistakes, falsify your data, ruin your career and advance their own. “Survival of the fittest theory,” if you will. It’s a peer-reviewed jungle out there.

Having said that, in June of 2008 Laurie Lebo wrote an excellent piece for the Washington Spectator that clearly delineates the motives and deceptive practices of the groups that are promoting these “academic freedom” bills now pending (or already passed) in many states: Using Academic Freedom to Keep God in the Science Classroom.

Last fall the Discovery Institute and Motive Marketing, the publicists for the Ben Stein movie, launched a joint-venture website that promotes “academic freedom” bills and provides suggested wording for legislators. With minor revisions, the wording of the state bills introduced thus far closely follows the website’s model legislation.

Stein, most famous for his role as the uninspiring teacher in the movie Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, has been lending his Hollywood celebrity status to the effort. Accompanied by Discovery Institute members, Stein has held press conferences and hosted private screenings of Expelled for lawmakers in Florida and Missouri.

Casey Luskin, an organizer for the Academic Freedom Petition, declined to be interviewed, but he said in an e-mail that the Discovery Institute has been promoting the academic freedom argument since at least 2002.

Forrest said creationists have been using the phrase for far longer. The term academic freedom, in this context, is code for teaching creationism. It first appeared in the creationism debate in 1981 in Louisiana’s Balanced Treatment Act. The act was declared unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court in the 1987 Edwards v. Aguillard decision. “On the first page of that decision,” Forrest noted, “the Supreme Court said it did not buy the academic freedom argument.”

The decision reads: “The Act does not further its stated secular purpose of ‘protecting academic freedom.’ It does not enhance the freedom of teachers to teach what they choose and fails to further the goal of ‘teaching all of the evidence.’”

KILLING SCIENCE—The Discovery Institute’s John West told foxnews.com that the bills do not even mention intelligent design. He said they merely encourage discussion, not outright teaching, of the concept. “We oppose intelligent design mandates,” West said.

West says that the Dicsovery Institute merely wants to see evolutionary theory taught more fully—what creationists say are its strengths and weaknesses. But as their past actions indicate, they want to pry open the door for sympathetic teachers to teach intelligent design and creationism.

While West and the Discovery Institute stress that religious instruction isn’t included in their long-term goals, the sponsors of the bills in the statehouses aren’t always as careful at hiding their agenda. In Louisiana, for example, the lead sponsor of the legislation, Senator Ben Nevers, has been working closely with the Louisiana Family Forum, an organization with a history of attacking the teaching of evolution in the public schools.

“The Louisiana Family Forum suggested the bill,” Nevers told the Hammond Daily Star. “They believe that scientific data related to creationism should be discussed when dealing with Darwin’s theory.” Despite the calculated effort to avoid the term, “creationism” always finds its way back into the debate. Yet creationism, shut out of the public schools since 1987, is not what this new movement says it’s selling.

The people pushing these “academic freedom” bills do not simply want to teach pseudo-science to their children; you can be sure that they’re already doing that. The purpose of these bills is to teach disguised creationism to everyone’s children.

Read the whole thing…

Jump to bottom

1079 comments
1 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:25:41pm

This is one of those times I wish I could give a million updings to a post.

2 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:27:42pm

Another Evolution Thread. I'll now take bets on how many trolls get the gate on this one. I've got 5 dollars on two trolls.

3 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:28:23pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

Another Evolution Thread. I'll now take bets on how many trolls get the gate on this one. I've got 5 dollars on two trolls.

The trick is to predict when, though...

4 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:29:26pm

Gee, supposed conservatives using the playbook of progressives to achieve veiled objectives. Who'da thunk it?

5 BirdFLU  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:29:37pm

Same tactics as the muslims: use the system against itself, do it a tiny bit at a time so nobody notices.

6 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:29:38pm

re: #1 reine.de.tout

This is one of those times I wish I could give a million updings to a post.

You can: just register some sockpuppets. It's updinging. The Chicago Way!

7 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:30:07pm

Oh my goodness, another God thread. Charles, how many God threads are you gonna put up on LGF. I use to enjoy this site when it was just about the Viet Cong and Nixon. But, now, God, God, God, all the time.

/////////////////

8 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:30:25pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

Another Evolution Thread. I'll now take bets on how many trolls get the gate on this one. I've got 5 dollars on two trolls.

Is this the blog version of "The Running Man" now?

9 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:30:38pm

re: #3 Cognito

The trick is to predict when, though...

I'd bet on the neighborhood of comment #450 for the first banning.

10 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:31:08pm

I'll go with post #229.

11 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:31:29pm
The purpose of these bills is to teach disguised creationism to everyone’s children.

In violation of the rights of parents to teach their children as they see fit when it comes to matters of religion. This is about as anti-Family Values as I can think.

12 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:31:31pm

How about an open registration during an Evolution/ID thread? Or would that be like shooting fish in a barrel?

13 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:31:34pm

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

I'd bet on the neighborhood of comment #450 for the first banning.

14 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:31:47pm

177.

15 CynicalConservative  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:31:50pm

re: #9 Dark_Falcon

I'd bet on the neighborhood of comment #450 for the first banning.

Troll at 119, cog at 425.

/Just kidding cog

16 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:32:18pm

#260

17 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:32:28pm

re: #12 Alouette

How about an open registration during an Evolution/ID thread? Or would that be like shooting fish in a barrel?

That has been done before IIRC. It was an invitation for latent socks and trolls to join for the next ID thread.

18 SlartyBartfast  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:32:37pm

OT, but this is a test: after seeing the passage of the so-called "stimulus bill" and hearing our "dear leader's" dead-beat bail-out plan, I've changed my avatar. I just want to make sure it comes through...

19 Killer Tomato  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:33:07pm

Damn - I'm out of popcorn.

20 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:33:15pm

I talked with Mr Wishing about this subject. He got a bit pissy with me. Asked me about Piltdown man, for petes sake.

21 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:33:16pm

re: #18 SlartyBartfast

OT, but this is a test: after seeing the passage of the so-called "stimulus bill" and hearing our "dear leader's" dead-beat bail-out plan, I've changed my avatar. I just want to make sure it comes through...

Howard Beale, how appropriate.

22 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:33:26pm
“On the first page of that decision,” Forrest noted, “the Supreme Court said it did not buy the academic freedom argument.”

But why let a debunked claim get in the way of repeating it? The creationists never do.

23 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:34:13pm

re: #20 Wishing

I talked with Mr Wishing about this subject. He got a bit pissy with me. Asked me about Piltdown man, for petes sake.

How is asking about a fraud that was accepted by gullible people getting pissy?

24 gmsc  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:34:40pm

0bama - wealth is created by government - by magic!
ID/creationism - man was made from dirt - by magic!

Is there a non-magic political party I can support?

25 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:35:12pm

The trolls have been lurking until later, lately.
I'll say 473.

26 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:35:40pm

re: #24 gmsc

0bama - wealth is created by government - by magic!
ID/creationism - man was made from dirt - by magic!

Is there a non-magic political party I can support?

The "Give me all your money and I won't do anything" party. ;)

27 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:35:44pm

re: #8 FurryOldGuyJeans

Is this the blog version of "The Running Man" now?

Hell, yeah! That's my father's favorite Schwarzenegger movie. So, taking the role of Damon Killian for myself, I'd like to introduce tonight's Troll Stalkers:

Salamantis

Sharmuta

Mandy Manners

And of course, Walter L. Newton.

We'll tally the point scored on each troll, and award a massive karma prize to the best Stalker!

28 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:35:57pm

Like I said before: in the long run this would be the start of slippery slope. With all due respect once you open the door to the religious teachings of one group it will no doubt result in others making that claim. In the end science education will become a diluted milieu of religion mixed in with some science. In the end they might as well change the name from science to social studies.

29 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:36:09pm

re: #23 FurryOldGuyJeans

How is asking about a fraud that was accepted by gullible people getting pissy?

Oh he was saying that evolutionists are ALL frauds, etc. Just blather.

30 Bloodnok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:36:15pm

#50 - early meltdown tonight.

31 reine.de.tout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:36:35pm

re: #7 Walter L. Newton

Walter - check your e-mail

32 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:36:42pm
The decision reads: “The Act does not further its stated secular purpose of ‘protecting academic freedom.’ It does not enhance the freedom of teachers to teach what they choose and fails to further the goal of ‘teaching all of the evidence.’”

Because it's demanding less evidence by asking for time to teach something with no evidence. They simply want to allow less time to teaching the theory by forcing teachers to deal with questions not related to science. More time given to crap, less time for evolution.

33 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:37:16pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

Troofers in history class.

34 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:37:19pm

re: #31 reine.de.tout

Hi reine.....

35 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:37:35pm

re: #33 jaunte

Troofers in history class.

Gasp!

36 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:37:39pm

re: #29 Wishing

Oh he was saying that evolutionists are ALL frauds, etc. Just blather.

Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. ;)

37 ArmyWife  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:37:48pm

re: #25 jaunte

There are some peacenik anti-military ones down thread. Can we beat the snot out of them (figuratively) for warm up purposes?

38 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:38:01pm

Why does a science teacher need legislation to "encourage discussion". Isn't that what teachers are supposed to do already?

39 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:38:03pm

re: #33 jaunte

Troofers in history class.

Holocaust revisionists. Teach the controversy! *spit*

40 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:38:04pm

re: #33 jaunte

Troofers in history class.

No wait a minute. On second thought. They're already in most universities.

41 researchok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:38:24pm

It has been said on this site and others that accepting evolution is not antithetical to belief in God.

In fact for believers, evolution is yet more testimony to the grandeur of God and Creation. For believers, evolution is testimony that the miracle of Creation is with us and ongoing and replayed everyday.

42 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:38:43pm

re: #35 Gus 802

"Tomorrow class, for balance, we'll hear from some people who don't believe we landed on the moon."

43 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:38:48pm

First downding

44 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:38:57pm

re: #36 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. ;)

Sorry about that! And honestly, Mr Wishing is usually the one pointing out the non-scientific community as bogus (he is an engineer), so this took me completely by surprise.

45 Devil's Advocate  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:39:18pm

Oh the Irony.

46 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:40:06pm

re: #42 jaunte

"Tomorrow class, for balance, we'll hear from some people who don't believe we landed on the moon so I want you all to wear your tin hats."

There, fixed it for you.

47 NYCHardhat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:40:09pm
48 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:40:31pm
Dear LGF Cookbook,

I have been a long time reader of this blog, but this new direction you've taken I find highly disturbing. I used to come here to read about juicy gossip about all the behind the scenes emails and recipe swapping. But this focus on selling some product or some such is boring. It's like you're obsessed. It's all you talk about anymore. What's happened to this place? I'm asking you to please return to your original focus, and quit boring all your long time fans. You're alienating us with your obsession.

~Sharmuta


Reine- I thought you'd get the satire.

49 albusteve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:40:47pm

meanwhile school boards and courts are tied up dithering and posturing and and deciding what should be a settled issue while the tax payer gets soaked...sooner or later there will be blowback...when will the 1st go to the wall?

50 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:40:56pm

re: #37 ArmyWife

There are some peacenik anti-military ones down thread. Can we beat the snot out of them (figuratively) for warm up purposes?

One "proudly" displays a Navy Chief's anchor in his avatar. I find that coupled with his blatant anti-military attitude disgraceful, disgusting, and revolting. This med-retired sailor wouldn't object to some extra-curricular smack-down performed upon his wimpy butt.

51 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:40:57pm

re: #43 Neo Con since 9-11

First downding

Will the downdinger please post! It's time to start RUNNING!

52 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:41:08pm
The purpose of these bills is to teach disguised creationism to everyone’s children.

Agreed, but what's the score? There's plenty of individuals and organizations watching these developments closely, just waiting to pounce on anyone illegally teaching Creation as part of an approved science curriculum in a public school.

/have there been any lawsuits since Dover?

53 avanti  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:41:12pm

It's not about religion, it's a intelligent designer doing it, not God. A intelligent designer that can create and manage life from nothing. Wait a minute, what do you call such a designer ?/s

54 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:41:54pm

$5 on #72

55 CynicalConservative  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:42:16pm

re: #54 Gus 802

$5 on #72

Cog or troll?

56 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:42:34pm

::Cue in the Jaws Music::

57 Bloodnok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:42:40pm

re: #55 CynicalConservative

Cog or troll?

Is that a trick question?

58 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:42:46pm

Academic freedom. That's a noble phrase.

It's amazing how these wanna-be Theocrats have adopted the language used to fight against the multi-culti lefties entrenched in colleges.

Moonbats to the Left, Theocrats to the Right...guess where I'm happy to be?

59 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:42:47pm

re: #55 CynicalConservative

Cog or troll?

Troll

60 CynicalConservative  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:42:51pm

re: #57 Bloodnok

Is that a trick question?

;-)

61 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:42:52pm

re: #53 avanti

It's not about religion, it's a intelligent designer doing it, not God. A intelligent designer that can create and manage life from nothing. Wait a minute, what do you call such a designer ?/s

Good line, avanti. For once, you have earned an upding.

62 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:42:55pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

Another Evolution Thread. I'll now take bets on how many trolls get the gate on this one. I've got 5 dollars on two trolls.

I need some trolls because my LGF cookbook should arrive soon and I need something to cook.
And we determined trolls are kosher because they're either like mushrooms or fish, even though neither of those have buttocks, gamey or not.

63 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:42:57pm

re: #55 CynicalConservative

Cog or troll?

$10 Zimbabwe on both? ;)

64 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:43:20pm

re: #53 avanti

It's not about religion, it's a intelligent designer doing it, not God. A intelligent designer that can create and manage life from nothing. Wait a minute, what do you call such a designer ?/s

*We don't know WHO the Designer is*

65 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:43:25pm

re: #52 Killian Bundy

Agreed, but what's the score? There's plenty of individuals and organizations watching these developments closely, just waiting to pounce on anyone illegally teaching Creation as part of an approved science curriculum in a public school.

/have there been any lawsuits since Dover?

/and that's just an honest question, not meant to be combative

66 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:44:05pm

re: #63 FurryOldGuyJeans

$10 Zimbabwe on both? ;)

Dude, put in some money. That's not even a penny.

67 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:45:19pm

re: #52 Killian Bundy

Agreed, but what's the score? There's plenty of individuals and organizations watching these developments closely, just waiting to pounce on anyone illegally teaching Creation as part of an approved science curriculum in a public school.

/have there been any lawsuits since Dover?

Because it is where I was born and raised, I keep tabs on Tennessee's General Assembly. I've not found squat about this issue. Maybe it's due to the Scopes trial. THEY'VE HAD THEIR FILL.

68 CynicalConservative  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:45:20pm

re: #63 FurryOldGuyJeans

$10 Zimbabwe on both? ;)

I'll take two sheets of toilet paper for either. Worth much more.

69 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:45:24pm

A great point about the populist tactics of the DI, from the link:

"On the surface, Expelled and the proposed legislation are carefully designed to appeal to such notions as fairness and democratic principles. But it's clear from watching the movie that the purpose of the campaign is to turn people against evolutionary theory by promoting what might be described as the public's right to remain ignorant regarding science."
[Link: www.washingtonspectator.com...]

70 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:46:21pm

re: #62 Kosh's Shadow

I need some trolls because my LGF cookbook should arrive soon and I need something to cook.
And we determined trolls are kosher because they're either like mushrooms or fish, even though neither of those have buttocks, gamey or not.

I have yet to determine if a troll chews its cud, though they usually fling a lot of spittle and foam at the mouth. Nor do they have single cloven hooves, either. I'm kinda confused about the whole Kosher idea, would a halal one be acceptable?

71 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:46:27pm

re: #53 avanti

It's not about religion, it's a intelligent designer doing it, not God. A intelligent designer that can create and manage life from nothing. Wait a minute, what do you call such a designer ?/s

The Great Turtle on the bottom of the infinite stack.

72 SlartyBartfast  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:46:52pm

re: #21 FurryOldGuyJeans

Howard Beale, how appropriate.

All Lizards--all non-Socialists--should watch this. Now is the time: "I'm as mad as Hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

73 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:47:49pm

#72, the house wins. Shoot.

74 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:48:19pm
West says that the Dicsovery Institute merely wants to see evolutionary theory taught more fully—what creationists say are its strengths and weaknesses. But as their past actions indicate, they want to pry open the door for sympathetic teachers to teach intelligent design and creationism.

So really they're trying to undermine school boards by pushing legislation that will allow individual teachers not only the right to discuss ID, but also to prevent the teachers from facing the consequences for doing so. Promoting "teachers' rights" to flip the bird to parents and the elected officials in charge of education. Nice.

75 unclassifiable  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:49:12pm

The academy in it's purest form is an institution devoted to the pursuit of truth.

Under ideal circumstances this would preclude lies and utter nonsense.

Of course there is no "ideal" academy (especially, sadly U.S. colleges and universities). Nonetheless we should be striving towards the ideal, not embracing its corruption.

Over time, what most "areas of study" have found is that the pursuit of the truth is best done systematically. Hence a synonymous term for "areas of study" is "discipline".

In that sense there is not really academic freedom per se.

All of that talk would be more directed towards adherence to the the discipline rather than freedom of thought.

So while David Horowitz may talk about academic freedom in the social sciences vis-a-vis balanced points of view what he is actually getting at is that conservative views need to be presented so as to give a balance of viewpoints within the framework of the originally adopted disciplines of those areas of study (particularly in political science).

Such is not the case with ID. In biology there is already a well established discipline of the scientific method which ID clearly does not adhere to and evolution clearly does.

Adoption of ID breaks the discipline of biology as an area of study and its introduction to it is, therefore, unacceptable.

76 Afrocity  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:49:14pm

Evening

77 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:49:15pm

Creationism in the classroom is akin to Sharia law.

78 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:49:44pm

re: #70 FurryOldGuyJeans

I have yet to determine if a troll chews its cud, though they usually fling a lot of spittle and foam at the mouth. Nor do they have single cloven hooves, either. I'm kinda confused about the whole Kosher idea, would a halal one be acceptable?

Well, trolls do seem to live in the dark and live on shit, like mushrooms. And some people claim they have fins and scales, like fish.

79 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:49:46pm

re: #72 SlartyBartfast

All Lizards--all non-Socialists--should watch this. Now is the time: "I'm as mad as Hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

CNBC host did that earlier.

CNBC POLL: Would You Join [the] 'Chicago Tea Party?'

80 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:50:15pm

re: #76 Afrocity

Evening

Hi. Trying to slip in unnoticed?

81 Bloodnok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:50:34pm

re: #76 Afrocity

Evening

Hi there kickass Lizard #326!

82 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:50:34pm

re: #77 Mich-again

Creationism in the classroom is akin to Sharia law.

Nah.

In the next couple of weeks they're about to put out a guy's eyes -- with acid -- in Tehran.

83 unclassifiable  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:50:44pm

re: #76 Afrocity

Howdy

84 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:50:56pm

re: #78 Kosh's Shadow

Well, trolls do seem to live in the dark and live on shit, like mushrooms. And some people claim they have fins and scales, like fish.

Well, if you say one is kosher I will to accept that assessment. ;)

85 bnichols10  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:51:29pm

Academic Freedom, Employee Free Choice Act - How can anyone be against something that sounds so good and nice?

86 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:51:54pm

re: #76 Afrocity

Evening

Evening, beautiful lady.

{Afrocity}

How is Chicagotown this fine Thursday evening?

87 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:52:12pm

re: #85 bnichols10

Academic Freedom, Employee Free Choice Act - How can anyone be against something that sounds so good and nice?

"Fairness Doctrine"
"Stimulus Package"

88 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:53:24pm

re: #85 bnichols10

Academic Freedom, Employee Free Choice Act - How can anyone be against something that sounds so good and nice?

Who could be against bailing out businesses that can't make a profit, or people who take a mortgage that is more than they will ever earn?

89 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:53:28pm

re: #77 Mich-again

Creationism in the classroom is akin to Sharia law.

Creationism in the classroom WILL Lead to Sharia in the classroom.

90 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:53:55pm

For those who missed it earlier here's the latest ballot initiative in Washington.....
Washington state kook wants a law to discriminate against atheists

Ballot Measure Summary
This measure would require state government not to use public funds or property for anything that denies or attempts to refute the existence of a supreme ruler of the universe, including but not limited to appropriations for displays, textbooks, scientific endeavors, instruction, and research projects. The measure would provide that no person shall be questioned based on their personal values, beliefs, or opinions regarding the existence of a supreme ruler of the universe.

91 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:54:40pm

re: #90 Killgore Trout

For those who missed it earlier here's the latest ballot initiative in Washington.....
Washington state kook wants a law to discriminate against atheists

I have to say it wasn't me. ;)

92 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:55:02pm

re: #90 Killgore Trout

Did you see my last answer on the last thread?

93 hazzyday  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:55:03pm

Probably the idea of "Teach the controversy" should be expanded and evolved. I don't think the controversy is evolution, the controversy is the idea of a "Young Earth" . All initiatives involving this stuff should have an opposing idea that questions the bedrock of the YEc'rs. If they want to question evolution, then their faith should be questioned also. This should occur before any line is written in a text book. Let Richard Dawkins have at them.

94 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:55:21pm

re: #89 Wishing

Creationism in the classroom WILL Lead to Sharia in the classroom.

Yes, it would set a precedent.

95 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:56:06pm

re: #82 Cognito

I disagree with your Nah. Just because there is a worse example of it doesn't mean all the lesser examples don't have the same aim.

96 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:56:15pm

Who's got the over/under on the first martyr cookie? It's a Thursday night, I'll guess it happens after #350.

97 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:56:27pm

re: #92 Walter L. Newton

Responded.

98 fried spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:56:33pm

From the ncseweb site:

"Evolution makes no claims about God's existence or non-existence, any more than do other scientific theories such as gravitation, atomic structure, or plate tectonics. Just like gravity, the theory of evolution is compatible with theism, atheism, and agnosticism. Can I accept evolution as the most compelling explanation for biological diversity, and yet also accept the idea that God works through evolution? Certainly."

There are, however, many folks who disagree with that statement. There are ardent atheists who strongly believe that evolution precludes God's existence.

Now, the thing is, while I don't want creationism taught in science class to my kids, I also don't want an atheist to have unfettered license to teach atheism to my kids, in the guise of science.

How do we go about preventing that, while not going so far as these academic freedom initiatives?

99 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:56:36pm

The whole ID thing is about circumventing the Constitution. Plain and simple as that.

100 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:56:46pm

What was that recent poll that showed how many science teachers want creationism? It was small but still an eye-opening number. In the 30% maybe?

These bills are designed to encourage these teachers to shun the standards of their school districts- rogue agents. Since they can't get school boards to take this on as a district, they've targeted individual teachers, but they have to make sure the teachers aren't punished for doing so- for violating the rights of parents and students.

That's what these bills are doing- giving aid and comfort to those individuals who would willingly undermine your parental and Constitutional rights.

101 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:57:17pm

re: #96 Killgore Trout

Who's got the over/under on the first martyr cookie? It's a Thursday night, I'll guess it happens after #350.

Not until the thread is buried.

102 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:58:04pm

re: #82 Cognito

Nah.

In the next couple of weeks they're about to put out a guy's eyes -- with acid -- in Tehran.

Yep, I read that too. I oppose such barbaric punishments, though at least the prep deserves it in this case.

103 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:58:08pm

re: #89 Wishing

Creationism in the classroom WILL Lead to Sharia in the classroom.

What do you mean? Classrooms will start teaching and enforcing Sharia?

104 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:58:14pm

re: #95 Mich-again

I disagree with your Nah. Just because there is a worse example of it doesn't mean all the lesser examples don't have the same aim.

Too many people don't want to believe the jihadis want to kill us until a knife is poised on their neck, just as too many people don't want to believe IDers/Creationists want to corrupt/change the Constitution to allow for a theocracy of their particular beliefs from happening.

105 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:58:22pm

re: #72 SlartyBartfast

All Lizards--all non-Socialists--should watch this. Now is the time: "I'm as mad as Hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

I've seen a lot of horror movies, but that scene where everyone is screaming from their balconies is one of the scariest in any movie I've seen.

106 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:58:22pm

"Class. Since we are on the topic of animal behavior tomorrow we will have a speaker lecture on Animism."

107 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:58:40pm

re: #98 fried spam

From the ncseweb site:

"Evolution makes no claims about God's existence or non-existence, any more than do other scientific theories such as gravitation, atomic structure, or plate tectonics. Just like gravity, the theory of evolution is compatible with theism, atheism, and agnosticism. Can I accept evolution as the most compelling explanation for biological diversity, and yet also accept the idea that God works through evolution? Certainly."

There are, however, many folks who disagree with that statement. There are ardent atheists who strongly believe that evolution precludes God's existence.

Now, the thing is, while I don't want creationism taught in science class to my kids, I also don't want an atheist to have unfettered license to teach atheism to my kids, in the guise of science.

How do we go about preventing that, while not going so far as these academic freedom initiatives?

Seems simple enough: You take responsibility for teaching your children about your faith. Demand that school topics are just that: educational in nature.

108 Bloodnok  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:59:04pm

re: #98 fried spam

From the ncseweb site:

"Evolution makes no claims about God's existence or non-existence, any more than do other scientific theories such as gravitation, atomic structure, or plate tectonics. Just like gravity, the theory of evolution is compatible with theism, atheism, and agnosticism. Can I accept evolution as the most compelling explanation for biological diversity, and yet also accept the idea that God works through evolution? Certainly."

There are, however, many folks who disagree with that statement. There are ardent atheists who strongly believe that evolution precludes God's existence.

Now, the thing is, while I don't want creationism taught in science class to my kids, I also don't want an atheist to have unfettered license to teach atheism to my kids, in the guise of science.

How do we go about preventing that, while not going so far as these academic freedom initiatives?

It's times like this where I wish I had favorited Lao Stinky...

109 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:59:12pm

re: #100 Sharmuta

30% is not a small number. Eye-opening it is.

110 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:59:13pm
The purpose of these bills is to teach disguised creationism to everyone’s children.

And in doing so, sneak in fundamentalist Christianity via the science classroom.

111 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 7:59:48pm

re: #102 Dark_Falcon

Yep, I read that too. I oppose such barbaric punishments, though at least the prep deserves it in this case.

Yeah, when I saw what he did to the woman, I felt a bit barbaric myself. But in the end I think we've got a better system in the West.

112 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:00:16pm

Why stop at evolution?

(Of course I'm saying why would they stop at evolution.)

113 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:00:19pm

re: #110 eclectic infidel

And in doing so, sneak in fundamentalist Christianity via the science classroom.

A very particular narrow sect of Christianity at that.

114 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:00:34pm

re: #98 fried spam

Now, the thing is, while I don't want creationism taught in science class to my kids, I also don't want an atheist to have unfettered license to teach atheism to my kids, in the guise of science.

Educate your children how to separate facts from opinions.

115 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:00:44pm

re: #103 traderjoe9

What do you mean? Classrooms will start teaching and enforcing Sharia?

TJ, if we toss the Constitution under the bus and tell creationists that they can teach THEIR brand of ID, how long before the hue and cry goes up from muslims for equal time?

116 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:00:47pm

re: #100 Sharmuta
Here it is, I think...

Of the 25% of teachers who devoted time to creationism or intelligent design, nearly half agreed or strongly agreed that they teach creationism as a “valid scientific alternative to Darwinian explanations for the origin of species.” Nearly the same number agreed or strongly agreed that when they teach creationism or intelligent design they emphasize that “many reputable scientists view these as valid alternatives to Darwinian Theory”

(See Table S3 Teacher Orientations to Discussing Creationism or Intelligent Design in High School Biology Classes (pdf)
[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

117 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:01:54pm

These bills want to inculcate teachers from the consequences of violating the Constitution. That's wrong. Teachers are not above the law.

118 unclassifiable  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:02:07pm

re: #90 Killgore Trout

You really have to get into the article a little deeper than your quote to see its true zaniness.

But the idea that the government stay the heck out of the whole belief/non-belief business seems fair to me.

I think it is safe to say that the founding fathers never contemplated that non-religion and atheism would comprise a significant portion of the population. It may be time to just say that either way the government is staying the hell out of it.

119 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:02:15pm

Plate Tectonics: Teach The Controversy
/

120 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:02:19pm

118 and no deletions yet.

Can we get to 200?

121 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:02:27pm

re: #63 FurryOldGuyJeans

$10 Zimbabwe on both? ;)

I got burned on this in an earlier thread, but 500 quatloos on #197.

122 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:02:28pm

re: #114 Mich-again

Educate your children how to separate facts from opinions.

The problem is, some one who advocates ID in school could give you that very same answer ...

123 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:02:33pm

re: #115 Wishing

TJ, if we toss the Constitution under the bus and tell creationists that they can teach THEIR brand of ID, how long before the hue and cry goes up from muslims for equal time?

Exactly. The entire notion of teaching theology in place of science is very, very bad craziness.

124 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:02:35pm

re: #111 Cognito

Yeah, when I saw what he did to the woman, I felt a bit barbaric myself. But in the end I think we've got a better system in the West.

So do I. Either way, I'm glad she refused 'blood money' and made sure that the scumbag who attacked her won't ever hurt another woman. I raise my soda in salute to a brave woman with a sense of justice.

125 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:02:41pm

re: #119 Dar ul Harb

Plate Tectonics: Teach The Controversy
/

Ha! ;)

126 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:02:49pm

Why do so many of the same people who complain about moderate Muslims not condemning the perverters of Islam so loudly denounce those who speak up about the perverters of Christianity?

127 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:03:05pm

re: #109 FurryOldGuyJeans

30% is not a small number. Eye-opening it is.

The poll answer I think you are speaking of elicited the response that aproximately 25% of high school science teachers already teach ID as well as evolution, and aproximately 12.4 percent teach ID instead. 16 percent are creationists.

[Link: www.newscientist.com...]

128 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:04:10pm

re: #119 Dar ul Harb

Plate Tectonics: Teach The Controversy
/

Its amusing that the creationists want no part of teaching the "controversy" of homosexuality.

129 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:04:19pm

re: #117 Sharmuta

These bills want to inculcate teachers from the consequences of violating the Constitution. That's wrong. Teachers are not above the law.

No one is above the Constitution. No one should be. It is our fundamental law and should always be respected.

130 Scion9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:04:22pm

re: #119 Dar ul Harb

It's about time we started exposing children to Hollow Earth 'theory' in science class.
/

131 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:04:22pm

Heliocentrism: Teach The Controversy
//

132 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:04:34pm

re: #82 Cognito

Nah.

In the next couple of weeks they're about to put out a guy's eyes -- with acid -- in Tehran.

Yeah, It's that old scriptural eye-for-an-eye thing; he threw acid in the face of a woman who spurned him, and blinded her.

It'll certainly fuck up his aim, but while they're at it, why not castrate him, too, so he'll never get the urge again?

133 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:04:44pm

re: #127 Thanos

The poll answer I think you are speaking of elicited the response that aproximately 25% of high school science teachers already teach ID as well as evolution, and aproximately 12.4 percent teach ID instead. 16 percent are creationists.

[Link: www.newscientist.com...]

Ok, I was just going with someone else's figures. Now that there are some actual documented figures I still say the number is not a small amount, no matter how you slice it.

134 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:05:01pm

re: #115 Wishing

TJ, if we toss the Constitution under the bus and tell creationists that they can teach THEIR brand of ID, how long before the hue and cry goes up from muslims for equal time?

I agree - teaching creationism in schools would set a precedent for the Muslims to INCREASE their clamor for equal time.

Muslims are already making their voice well heard in this country for their special privileges.

135 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:05:48pm

re: #134 traderjoe9

I agree - teaching creationism in schools would set a precedent for the Muslims to INCREASE their clamor for equal time.

Muslims are already making their voice well heard in this country for their special privileges.

And equal time for a Muslim usually mean ALL the time.

136 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:06:02pm

re: #77 Mich-again

Creationism in the classroom is akin to Sharia law.

NO. NO. NO.

Creationism in the classroom is nowhere close to Sharia.

OTOH, really? How so?

That said, teaching creationism in public schools is a guaranteed first step in forcing public schools to teach the Koranic version of creation.

137 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:06:06pm

re: #110 eclectic infidel

And in doing so, sneak in fundamentalist Christianity via the science classroom.

/there's a difference between their goals and what they actually get their asses sued off in Federal court for, do you think the ACLU, et al are looking the other way, baffled by their sneakery?

138 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:06:56pm

Six emails complaining about this post already.

139 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:07:10pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

Responded.

see mine re: #704 Walter L. Newton

140 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:07:16pm

re: #125 Gus 802

Ha! ;)

You haven't ever seen a continent move, have ya?

Sure there are micro-movements in the Earth's crust, like earthquakes, but they're asking you to believe that you can get a new continent out of that.

India crashing into Asia? Gimme a break!

///

141 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:07:19pm

re: #138 Charles

Six emails complaining about this post already.

A lost opportunity for side-bets.

/

142 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:07:20pm

re: #76 Afrocity

Howdy.

143 CynicalConservative  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:07:28pm

re: #138 Charles

Six emails complaining about this post already.

FTFF

144 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:07:51pm

re: #98 fried spam

From the ncseweb site:

"Evolution makes no claims about God's existence or non-existence, any more than do other scientific theories such as gravitation, atomic structure, or plate tectonics. Just like gravity, the theory of evolution is compatible with theism, atheism, and agnosticism. Can I accept evolution as the most compelling explanation for biological diversity, and yet also accept the idea that God works through evolution? Certainly."

There are, however, many folks who disagree with that statement. There are ardent atheists who strongly believe that evolution precludes God's existence.

Now, the thing is, while I don't want creationism taught in science class to my kids, I also don't want an atheist to have unfettered license to teach atheism to my kids, in the guise of science.

How do we go about preventing that, while not going so far as these academic freedom initiatives?

Science isn't theistic OR atheistic; those are metaphysical categories, science is empirical. Science can no more conceal atheistic proselytization than ID can conceal theistic proselytization.

145 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:07:53pm

re: #136 MandyManners

NO. NO. NO.

Creationism in the classroom is nowhere close to Sharia.

OTOH, really? How so?

That said, teaching creationism in public schools is a guaranteed first step in forcing public schools to teach the Koranic version of creation.

And once one aspect of the Koran is required to be foisted upon students I would not discount all the other aspects soon becoming a requirement.

146 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:08:33pm

re: #138 Charles

Six emails complaining about this post already.

Six things to ignore, right?

147 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:08:45pm

re: #140 Dar ul Harb

You haven't ever seen a continent move, have ya?

Sure there are micro-movements in the Earth's crust, like earthquakes, but they're asking you to believe that you can get a new continent out of that.

India crashing into Asia? Gimme a break!

///

Damn right! I lived in New Jersey for almost 17 years. Not once did I see Long Island move.

/////

148 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:08:51pm

re: #138 Charles

Six emails complaining about this post already.

Not enough cowbell?

149 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:09:03pm

Feel the love:

You are like the German in 1939 biatching that Adolf Hitler is banning all of the powdered donuts while you are slowly being taken over.

Good luck with that.

:0)

Sieg Obama!

150 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:09:13pm

re: #132 Salamantis

Yeah, It's that old scriptural eye-for-an-eye thing; he threw acid in the face of a woman who spurned him, and blinded her.

It'll certainly fuck up his aim, but while they're at it, why not castrate him, too, so he'll never get the urge again?

Glad you're here Sal. I've got my money on you tonight to hit the trolls the hardest.

151 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:09:14pm

re: #147 Gus 802

Damn right! I lived in New Jersey for almost 17 years. Not once did I see Long Island move.

/////

You weren't drinking the local iced tea, then.

152 unclassifiable  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:09:15pm

re: #138 Charles

Did you give them an invitation to register?

153 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:09:22pm

re: #111 Cognito

Yeah, when I saw what he did to the woman, I felt a bit barbaric myself. But in the end I think we've got a better system in the West.

I think that a majority of Americans are pretty much unopposed to "cruel and unusual punishment" for certain classes of criminals. Eye for eye and all. The reason we have the 8th amendment is that this point of view is human nature. Other religions have their own version of Sharia law.

Thankfully the people who wrote our Constitution were well aware of that.

154 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:09:33pm

re: #149 Charles

Feel the love:

Huh? Wow.

155 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:09:58pm

re: #149 Charles

Just what the hell did all that mean?

/ scratches head

156 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:10:16pm

re: #129 Dark_Falcon

No one is above the Constitution. No one should be. It is our fundamental law and should always be respected.

But that's what these bills are doing- protecting the "rights" of the teacher to teach religion in science classes in violation of the Constitution, in violation of the school boards, in violation of parental rights, and in violation of the rights of the students.

If these bills pass, a lone science teacher can decide to teach someone else's child religious concepts that have no scientific validity much less a place in a public school classroom.

157 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:10:22pm

re: #151 Cognito

You weren't drinking the local iced tea, then.

That came later.

158 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:10:38pm

re: #149 Charles

Feel the love:

Aren't ID supporters just the most logical people you've ever seen?

/sarc

159 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:10:52pm

Charles,

Have you thought of coding up your dinging code so that people can only ding up or down after a certain amount of karma or posts or something? It seems so many are downdinging stuff and they have never, ever, said anything at all, ever.

Maybe it's a bit less democratic...but if somebody isn't going to comment in general at least a few times, I really don't think they should be allowed to ping things either.

I know I comment way less than many people here, but I do make comments and my positions are clear to many who read the blog comments on a regular basis.

160 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:10:54pm

re: #147 Gus 802

Damn right! I lived in New Jersey for almost 17 years. Not once did I see Long Island move.

/////

They've been predicting California falling off into the Pacific for as long as I can remember. Obviously never gonna happen.

///

161 unclassifiable  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:10:57pm

re: #149 Charles

Feel the love:

Well he got the Obama promoting fascism thing right.

Other than that WTF?

162 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:11:08pm
163 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:11:32pm

re: #138 Charles

Six emails complaining about this post already.

Did you get mine?
/////////

164 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:11:37pm

So, does that mean LGF has been taken over by "Obamaite?" That is, if you reject or refute ID, ergo, you must be left wing commie pinko?

165 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:11:39pm

re: #156 Sharmuta

If these bills pass, a lone science teacher can decide to teach someone else's child religious concepts that have no scientific validity much less a place in a public school classroom.

And they'll be protected from any consequences!

That's how abusers are enabled.

166 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:11:47pm

re: #163 Walter L. Newton

Did you get mine?
/////////

WHAT?

167 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:11:49pm

re: #156 Sharmuta

But that's what these bills are doing- protecting the "rights" of the teacher to teach religion in science classes in violation of the Constitution, in violation of the school boards, in violation of parental rights, and in violation of the rights of the students.

If these bills pass, a lone science teacher can decide to teach someone else's child religious concepts that have no scientific validity much less a place in a public school classroom.

Then we need to support court challenges to get these bills declared unconstitutional.

168 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:12:01pm

Once upon a time it was illegal NOT to teach creationism in schools. Heh.

169 The Shadow Do  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:12:13pm

re: #96 Killgore Trout

Who's got the over/under on the first martyr cookie? It's a Thursday night, I'll guess it happens after #350.

Not sure what the over/under is but I'm guessing later, maybe 500+?

It's like late season pheasant hunting, lots of casualties. The smart one won't flush, they run (evolution!). They run... right up until they feel they just can't help themselves, and then.......whoosh! flap, flap, flap.....

*bang*

170 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:12:19pm

re: #149 Charles

Who needs the sloppy old Constitution when it just gets in the way of Howard Ahmanson and his buddies protecting us from crazy jihadiworld?
/

171 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:12:24pm

re: #155 FurryOldGuyJeans

Just what the hell did all that mean?

/ scratches head

They'd prefer an article on how Obama is sekretly setting up the draft and civilian retraining camps across the country. Next are their agenda are black helicopters, they want Charles to get the word out on those... and oh yeah, those terror subs that are coming.

172 MJ  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:12:43pm

Carter Library and Museum to get $10 million upgrade

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- The Jimmy Carter Library and Museum will close in April for a five-month, $10 million renovation, Carter told reporters and dozens of Atlanta-area schoolchildren Thursday.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

So which Saudi gave him the money?

173 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:13:17pm

re: #137 Killian Bundy

/there's a difference between their goals and what they actually get their asses sued off in Federal court for, do you think the ACLU, et al are looking the other way, baffled by their sneakery?

I entertain no faith in the ACLU to do the right thing.

You have a valid point - but pseudo-science could find its way into the classroom in regions where religion is rather...dominant. Where the ACLU & cohorts lack visibility and a discernible presence.

174 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:13:28pm

Troll Hammer part 4

Intelligent Design and teaching the controversy have nothing to do with religion

Then why is it that only fundamentalists see a controversy or want ID taught. Since ID is a non-provable hypothesis about a creator who intelligently designed life, how is this not a statement of faith?

175 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:13:29pm

I want to say a word in defense of Christians in this area of evolution/ID. Historically, Christians are not taught to think critically. In fact, just asking questions is frowned upon. One doesn't want to make the pastor look bad, etc. Also, as a Christian I was never taught how to ask questions, though I sure had a ton of them!

No one came right out and said, We don't allow question-asking. But the culture discouraged it. When I did begin to learn how to question things of my faith, well, let me say it was uncomfortable.

I had avoided the entire issue of evolution, with fingers-in-ears. It was ignorance by choice.
*God said it, I believe it, that settles it* approach. It can be a comfortable way to live only if you manage to avoid reality.

My desire was for truth. Not just truth that made me comfy, but even truth that would turn my world upside down. Part of my odyssey has included this whole evolution thing. I feel like I can finally get a little grip on what the issues are. My faith is stronger for it.

176 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:13:31pm

re: #168 traderjoe9

Once upon a time it was illegal NOT to teach creationism in schools. Heh.

Yet the Scopes trial was a sham and a setup.

177 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:13:37pm

re: #122 OldLineTexan

The problem is, some one who advocates ID in school could give you that very same answer ...

But they can't win an argument against an educated opponent. Only the dumb ones.

178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:13:59pm

Walter still here?

179 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:14:09pm

re: #159 Summer

Charles,

Have you thought of coding up your dinging code so that people can only ding up or down after a certain amount of karma or posts or something? It seems so many are downdinging stuff and they have never, ever, said anything at all, ever.

Maybe it's a bit less democratic...but if somebody isn't going to comment in general at least a few times, I really don't think they should be allowed to ping things either.

I know I comment way less than many people here, but I do make comments and my positions are clear to many who read the blog comments on a regular basis.

I've thought Charles should have an "earn your privleges" code for a long time. x non dinged or plused posts before you can ding, y non dinged or plussed posts before you can add spinoffs.

180 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:14:16pm

re: #134 traderjoe9

I agree - teaching creationism in schools would set a precedent for the Muslims to INCREASE their clamor for equal time.

Muslims are already making their voice well heard in this country for their special privileges.

Well then the last thing we would want to do is to tear up the Constitution and invite them in.

181 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:14:20pm
They believe that scientific data related to creationism should be discussed when dealing with Darwin’s theory.

What "data"?

I sometimes wonder what a science teacher would actually do in science class if the Deception Institute's evil dream came true.

"Right class, last term we learned how to extract DNA from bananas and analyse it. This week we'll do a very interesting experiment... err... no we won't... there is no experiment we can do, or anything to analyse, now kneel and pray!

Now watch this... 'Flintstones, meet the Flintstones! They're the modern stone-age family!'"

BiJ.

PS. Note the "theory" belongs only to Darwin. They are slick distorters, you've got to hand it to them.

182 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:14:35pm

re: #149 Charles

Feel the love:

What kind of drugs do I need to take to understand that?

183 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:14:36pm

re: #160 Dar ul Harb

They've been predicting California falling off into the Pacific for as long as I can remember. Obviously never gonna happen.

///

Yeah, should have happened by now. They keep talking about billions of years. Hell, the Earth was made in 1 day. Should've taken California at least 40 years to fall into the sea after those preverts had that thing in 1969.

///

184 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:14:40pm

re: #149 Charles

Feel the love:

OMG It always shocks me when I see people that messed up.

185 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:14:55pm

re: #168 traderjoe9

Once upon a time it was illegal NOT to teach creationism in schools. Heh.

The truly sick thing is that the Creationists actually had the better man or their side. Bryan was an honest and decent man, who truly loved his country and fellow man, even if he was often wrong. Darrow was an amoral Chicago lawyer who happened to be better than most other lawyers.

186 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:14:55pm

re: #171 Thanos

They'd prefer an article on how Obama is sekretly setting up the draft and civilian retraining camps across the country. Next are their agenda are black helicopters, they want Charles to get the word out on those... and oh yeah, those terror subs that are coming.

They need to go set up their own blog if they want to go swimming in the swamps.

187 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:14:58pm

re: #149 Charles

Who is trying to ban powdered donuts! As G*d is my witness, this will not stand!

188 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:15:15pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Walter still here?

Watt?

189 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:15:17pm

re: #162 Racer X

Mauna Kea Milky Way Panorama

Awesome!

WOW

190 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:15:21pm

re: #182 jcm

What kind of drugs do I need to take to understand that?

Xanax

191 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:15:42pm

Fixed Troll Hammer part 4

Intelligent Design and teaching the controversy have nothing to do with religion...

Then why is it that only fundamentalists see a controversy or want ID taught? Since ID is a non-provable hypothesis about a creator who intelligently designed life, how is it not a statement of faith?

192 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:15:47pm

re: #187 Mich-again

Who is trying to ban powdered donuts! As G*d is my witness, this will not stand!

From my cold dead hands........

193 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:16:05pm

re: #179 Thanos

I've thought Charles should have an "earn your privleges" code for a long time. x non dinged or plused posts before you can ding, y non dinged or plussed posts before you can add spinoffs.

Well I just think these "drive by dings" by lurkers are kinda annoying and are mostly used in the way someone would use a slur. It probably shouldn't be based on Karma, but it should be based on posts. After all, if somebody got a few posts and really bad Karma, they probably wouldn't last long anyway. =)

194 Afrocity  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:16:06pm

Sorry guys I am just lurking. I am not at the skill level necessary for the creationism threads. I am just a hatchling you know.
(sitting Indian style on bean bag chair painting toenails, while intermittently reloading the page)

195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:16:11pm

re: #188 Walter L. Newton

Weren't you talking about a "tea party" recently?

Dude in Chicago stole it.

Just wanted to make sure you knew.

196 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:16:36pm

re: #175 Wishing

I think it was Socrates who said:

"The unexamined life is not worth living." Perhaps it should also be said that the unexamined faith is not worth having?

If you are truly faithful you have the strength to question.

197 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:16:39pm

re: #191 LudwigVanQuixote

Fixed Troll Hammer part 4

Intelligent Design and teaching the controversy have nothing to do with religion...

Then why is it that only fundamentalists see a controversy or want ID taught? Since ID is a non-provable hypothesis about a creator who intelligently designed life, how is it not a statement of faith?

Hey. They have fossil "proof." A couple of them have some "petrified" brains.

//

198 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:16:43pm

re: #147 Gus 802

Damn right! I lived in New Jersey for almost 17 years. Not once did I see Long Island move.

/////


Then you've obviously never had a Long island Ice Tea...

199 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:17:02pm

Just because the west coast of Africa and the eastern coast of South America have complementary shapes doesn't mean they arose from a common ancestor!

How improbable is that? It'd be like uh... well... your cookie on the kitchen counter falling off spontaneously and breaking on the floor.

If it happens, you're gonna have to look for who did it. Aren't you?

//

200 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:17:03pm

re: #194 Afrocity

I am also in lurk mode. Got a Geo. Carlin DVD on.

201 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:17:09pm

"Academic Freedom"?

Do you think we are fools?

We are living in the Era of the Euphemism. As long as you can generate a good enough euphemistic slogan for your agenda, it can survive and thrive.

Let's look at some modern euphemisms:

"Stimulus Package." Very well-done. Two positive words. "Stimulus" -- it's almost exciting. And "package" makes it seem confined and tidy. But what if we got rid of the euphemism and used an accurate title: Insanely Bloated Theft of Taxpayer Dollars to Fund Every Corrupt Porkbarrel Project and Leftist Pressure Group in the Nation and Which Will Plunge Us into a Depression for at Least the Next Four Years. With that title, do you think anyone would have supported it?

Next:

"The Fairness Doctrine." As everyone here knows, a more precise description would be "The Unfairness Doctrine." Or perhaps,"Totalitarian Move to Undermine the First Amendment of the Constitution."

"Affirmative Action." Perhaps the best euphemism of the last 40 years. If it had been called "Government-Sponsored Racism," which is what it really is, it wouldn't be continuing today.

All of these examples so far have been left-wing examples. But the right does it as well. "The Patriot Act" (which I actually support) is just a euphemism for "Increased Domestic Espionage" And the most well-known, "The War on Terror" is just a prettied up name for "War on Islamic Extremism."

And so we come to the point of this comment: "Academic Freedom." Again a very effective euphemism. Positive phraseology. A feel-good vibe.

But as with most euphemisms, the more positive it sounds, the more noxious its actual intent. In this case, a better title would be, "Granting Crackpots Freedom to Feed Fraudulent Disinformation to Our Nation's Students."

Did they really think that building a better euphemism would trick the nation's scientists? Dream on.

This Orwellian Doublespeak will not stand. The time has come to declare an end to the Era of the Euphemism -- because it is killing this country.

202 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:17:15pm

re: #162 Racer X

Mauna Kea Milky Way Panorama

Awesome!

Is that snow in that panorama? In Hawaii?!?

203 unclassifiable  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:17:21pm

re: #187 Mich-again

Who is trying to ban powdered donuts! As G*d is my witness, this will not stand!

This is what revolutions are made of comrade.

Powder donuts for the masses!

Down with pastry!

204 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:18:10pm

re: #194 Afrocity

Sorry guys I am just lurking. I am not at the skill level necessary for the creationism threads. I am just a hatchling you know.
(sitting Indian style on bean bag chair painting toenails, while intermittently reloading the page)

Good way to learn. :)

205 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:18:16pm

re: #194 Afrocity


(sitting Indian style on bean bag chair painting toenails, while intermittently reloading the page)

I'm sitting with an Indian, eating beans out of a bag. Paint chips are on the floor, but we keep mixing them with the toenail clippings. We're loaded.

206 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:18:25pm

re: #202 FurryOldGuyJeans

Is that snow in that panorama? In Hawaii?!?

They get snow there. I was just there last month.

207 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:18:28pm

With that, I'm going afk for a bit. Good luck fighting off the deluded creationists. I hope Charles reads my post tho and maybe installs a system that would do that in the near future. =)

208 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:18:29pm

re: #164 Gus 802

So, does that mean LGF has been taken over by "Obamaite?" That is, if you reject or refute ID, ergo, you must be left wing commie pinko?

I mentioned this before, but before coming to LGF I took a stab at debating ID on another conservative site, and was called left-wing, a commie, a pinko, all those together in some combination, and a bunch of other, much more hateful stuff. Imagine my surprise when I stumbled upon LGF, a reasonable conservative blog! Was glad to register.

209 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:18:29pm

re: #194 Afrocity

It's not difficult to understand, even without the science. These bills want to give teachers special rights and protections to violate the Constitutional rights of parents and students.

210 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:18:55pm

re: #195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Weren't you talking about a "tea party" recently?
Dude in Chicago stole it. Just wanted to make sure you knew.

Figures. A number of years ago, some dude stole my idea for the bible.

211 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:19:07pm

The planet is divided in to 12 types of climate. Hawaii has 10 of them.

212 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:19:20pm

re: #201 zombie

This Orwellian Doublespeak will not stand. The time has come to declare an end to the Era of the Euphemism -- because it is killing this country.

How about "Federal Reserve" Its not Federal and there is nothing in Reserve.

213 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:19:23pm

re: #199 Dar ul Harb

And just who ate all the other missing pieces of the cookie?

You know who.

//

214 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:19:45pm

re: #167 Dark_Falcon

Then we need to support court challenges to get these bills declared unconstitutional.

Then you need some teacher to actually try and teach Creation in a public school science class.

/it won't go unnoticed, didn't in Dover

215 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:19:45pm

re: #187 Mich-again

Who is trying to ban powdered donuts! As G*d is my witness, this will not stand!

We're all over it.

Luckily we've got about six crates of them in the pantry. That should tide us over until the weekend.

216 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:19:51pm

re: #206 rawmuse

They get snow there. I was just there last month.

Things have certainly changed since I was stationed in Hawaii (Oahu) with the Navy during the 1980's.

217 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:20:06pm

re: #200 rawmuse

I am also in lurk mode. Got a Geo. Carlin DVD on.

Thought of a Carlin one liner today...

"Did you ever notice, your own farts don't smell that bad?"


Made a killer batch of pinto beans today.

218 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:20:08pm

re: #196 Thanos

I think it was Socrates who said:

"The unexamined life is not worth living." Perhaps it should also be said that the unexamined faith is not worth having?

If you are truly faithful you have the strength obligation to question.

Agreed with all of that, but added my personal view at the end there...

219 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:20:15pm

re: #208 Basho

I mentioned this before, but before coming to LGF I took a stab at debating ID on another conservative site, and was called left-wing, a commie, a pinko, all those together in some combination, and a bunch of other, much more hateful stuff. Imagine my surprise when I stumbled upon LGF, a reasonable conservative blog! Was glad to register.

There you go. It's part of the litmus test we're always subjected to. Accept the dogma or else!

I would go further in saying that in some peoples mind evolution = RINO. Not that one has to be a Republican to be a conservative or conservative leaning.

220 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:20:48pm

Hello Night Lizards! The small amount of Gorebull Warming we, in Near Iowa, got last night melted today.

I saw part of Ludwig's ID Troll Hammer linked thru the A$$ Kickin' Dressing Down video thread. I liked it, well, both.

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

221 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:20:50pm

re: #216 FurryOldGuyJeans

You have to go up to the peaks, of course. No rental cars allowed.

222 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:20:54pm

re: #145 FurryOldGuyJeans

And once one aspect of the Koran is required to be foisted upon students I would not discount all the other aspects soon becoming a requirement.

Maybe. Maybe not.

223 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:21:04pm

re: #138 Charles

Six emails complaining about this post already.

Well, it they post their complaint they'll get the stick. I do believe they are learning what it takes to survive.

224 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:21:06pm

re: #210 Walter L. Newton

Figures. A number of years ago, some dude stole my idea for the bible.

That was you?

225 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:21:13pm

re: #196 Thanos

I think it was Socrates who said:

"The unexamined life is not worth living." Perhaps it should also be said that the unexamined faith is not worth having?

If you are truly faithful you have the strength to question.

Well also Thanos, if you cannot question, then your GOD is too small.

226 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:21:21pm

re: #180 Wishing

Well then the last thing we would want to do is to tear up the Constitution and invite them in.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion

Source

227 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:21:25pm

re: #211 rawmuse

The planet is divided in to 12 types of climate. Hawaii has 10 of them.

Hawaii is the only State of the 50 that hasn't reached a temperature of 100 degrees F. Surrounded by too much cold water.

228 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:21:41pm

re: #194 Afrocity

Sorry guys I am just lurking. I am not at the skill level necessary for the creationism threads. I am just a hatchling you know.
(sitting Indian style on bean bag chair painting toenails, while intermittently reloading the page)

So. Is it AFroCITY, as in a city of awesome hairstyles?

Or AfROCity, as in an awesome hairstyle with velocity?

229 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:21:52pm

re: #183 Gus 802

Yeah, should have happened by now. They keep talking about billions of years. Hell, the Earth was made in 1 day. Should've taken California at least 40 years to fall into the sea after those preverts had that thing in 1969.

///


The glue holding it on never dried so well/

230 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:22:03pm

re: #224 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That was you?

Just the first half. I had some blond dude write the sequel.

231 Scion9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:22:08pm

I can't find any evidence that Hitler banned powdered donuts in 1939. A cursory googling did pull up this satirical article about Democrats comparing Dunkin Donuts to the Third Reich as the first link...

"I went inside the Dunkin Donuts and right away it hit me. There were men in some kind of uniform behind the counter following orders from their commander," Senator Dick Durbin said, "it was just like seeing one of those Nazi movies. It felt like the Third Reich to me."

Matters grew worse for the Senator as he was asked to wait in line to get his donuts.

"Wait in line," Durbin protested, "what is this Nazi Germany? Why are we being herded into lines? This is fascism! Millions of American soldiers gave their lives to stop Hitler only to import fascism onto our own soil!"

After pledging to liberate the Dunkin Donuts from the manager whom the Senator called, Hitler and warning the workers they would be subject to war crimes tribunals, he was finally thrown out of the shop but that did not put a stop to his campaign.

"Dunkin Donuts is the modern Hitler," Durbin proclaimed, "and Mengele's and Goebbels' and Goering's work there behind every counter. This administration has allowed the Dunkin Donuts to thrive on our soil endangering our liberty and making America hated throughout the world for exporting a jelly filled menace. I demand immediate hearings."

Some Jewish groups condemned the comparison to Dunkin Donuts as frivolous and trivializing the Holocaust, however Democrats continue to stand by Durbin's remarks.

"Senator Durbin was attempting to use rhetoric to alert the public to a very grave matter," Senator Hillary Clinton said. "While we have become preoccupied with the so-called 'War on Terror', Dunkin Donuts has snuck up on us and laid siege to our cities. No one does anything about Dunkin Donuts because of their sizeable contributions to the Bush administration while the right wing attack machine goes after a patriot like Senator Durbin."

"Donuts, evil, sweet evil delicious donuts," Congressman Nadler said gobbling a handful of Dunkin Donuts in what he claimed was research. "The government must mffff make every effort to confiscate all mmfffff to be only used by qualified government personnel. Mmmmm Pol Pot had nothing on these."

Howard Dean as head of the Democratic party took the lead in making the rebuttal.

"The Republicans who spend all their time drowning babies and setting fire to black churches think they have America fooled! Yeeaaargh," Dean roared, "but we know better. Nazis are inside the Dunkin Donuts. Hitler is everywhere. We're gonna mobilize. We're gonna stop this whitewashing of Dunkin Donuts. And then we're gonna go get some all American fallafel from Ahmed around the corner to show our American patriotism or I'm moving to Canada."

232 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:22:20pm

re: #228 Cognito

Whatever she is? She freakin' rocks!

233 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:22:44pm

The states won't adopt ID, the school boards won't adopt ID, so now they've whittled it down to the individual teachers, and they must be granted protections from eeevil Darwinists insisting that religion isn't science.

And once these teachers are given special rights in science, what's to stop special rights in other classes? It's a slippery slope, and lawmakers would be wise to reconsider this foul agenda.

234 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:22:46pm

re: #173 eclectic infidel

You have a valid point - but pseudo-science could find its way into the classroom in regions where religion is rather...dominant. Where the ACLU & cohorts lack visibility and a discernible presence.

/like Louisiana?

235 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:22:49pm

re: #228 Cognito

So. Is it AFroCITY, as in a city of awesome hairstyles?

Or AfROCity, as in an awesome hairstyle with velocity?

I've been wondering that myself. Catchy neologism, either way.

236 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:22:59pm

re: #227 Mich-again

Hawaii is the only State of the 50 that hasn't reached a temperature of 100 degrees F. Surrounded by too much cold water.

the things you learn here... That is a good one.

237 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:23:11pm

re: #209 Sharmuta

It's not difficult to understand, even without the science. These bills want to give teachers special rights and protections to violate the Constitutional rights of parents and students.

Additional the Disco Institute is using DECIT in an attempt to get the Christian message out.

How they rationalize that I've yet to even begin to fathom. I'm pretty sure it's not any of the Bibles I've read.

238 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:23:18pm

Self imposed "hey, i've been drinkin'" rule applies...

right...

now...

239 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:23:20pm

re: #222 MandyManners

Maybe. Maybe not.

When it comes to perverting the Constitution and indoctrination of kids with religious doctrine I would prefer to err on the side of it never happening than to let it slide and hope it doesn't occur.

240 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:23:21pm

re: #194 Afrocity

Sorry guys I am just lurking. I am not at the skill level necessary for the creationism threads. I am just a hatchling you know.
(sitting Indian style on bean bag chair painting toenails, while intermittently reloading the page)

These intimidate the snot outta' me.

I cannot debate the science but, I can figure out what will happen if we allow this into our public schools.

241 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:23:31pm

re: #149 Charles

Feel the love:

Essentially, quit complaining about our subversion, how about complaining about that subversion over there?

242 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:23:34pm

re: #215 Cognito

We're all over it.

Luckily we've got about six crates of them in the pantry. That should tide us over until the weekend.

Sugar coated fresh, hot apple donuts!

243 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:24:02pm

re: #229 VioletTiger

The glue holding it on never dried so well/

Must be that hydraulic pressure and friction.

244 skicougar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:24:14pm

Now, i am not Obama(naive) enough to think that more than a few creationists are looking to teach your child about God; but you will not run out of groups looking to put a pretty face on what they are looking to sell no matter where you are.

Since we will not live in an face value world ever, we should allow for these people to teach creationism.

Two examples why:
Poll: Only 3 Percent of Teens See Clergy as Role Models
[Link: www.christianpost.com...]

From the above article:
"But the poll’s major finding is that although the overwhelming majority of teens (80 percent) believe they are ethically prepared to make moral business decisions, nearly 40 percent believe they need to “break the rules” in order to succeed.

More than one in four teenagers (27 percent) think behaving violently is sometimes, often or always acceptable, according to the poll. One in five teens (20 percent) reported to have personally behaved violently toward another person in the past year."

and: Teachers support obama in classroom
[Link: www.parentdish.com...]

Which includes:
"In Virginia, the Teachers Union sent its members an e-mail encouraging them to wear "blue" to show support for Barack Obama. The e-mail reads:

"Let's make Obama Blue Day a day of Action! Barack the vote! There are people out there not yet registered. You teach some of them. Others, including our members, remain on the fence!"

>Now, we all know Obama is okay with giving partial birth abortion a pass. No matter what you believe, its very hard to argue that's not murder and Obama was okay with it.

I concede that promoting Obama does not equate to teaching creationism, but given the quotes from teens above; it's also hard to argue that allowing Biblical theory to be discussed would not have positive results of discussing Bible theory, verses and concepts by students, their parents and peers resulting in more positive and less detrimental choices by students.

For those against this, you're expecting what ? Nationwide David Koresh and Waco incidents ? Pulease.

245 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:24:40pm

re: #228 Cognito

So. Is it AFroCITY, as in a city of awesome hairstyles?

Or AfROCity, as in an awesome hairstyle with velocity?

Why dont' you fucking do some basic research? Hmmmmmmmmmm?

246 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:24:44pm

re: #144 Salamantis

Science isn't theistic OR atheistic; those are metaphysical categories, science is empirical. Science can no more conceal atheistic proselytization than ID can conceal theistic proselytization.

But a science teacher can. Especially in a public school setting, where they can teach their beliefs, as atheism is not a religion. Any reaction to atheistic teaching is considered a religion, and thus cannot be taught.

247 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:24:55pm

re: #237 jcm

Additional the Disco Institute is using DECIT in an attempt to get the Christian message out.

They are NOT getting the Christian message out. They are discrediting Christianity by using bully tactics and trickery to promote their faith. What a terrible example. They are damaging Christianity in the public eye, not spreading the word.

248 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:24:59pm

Carryover from the previous thread (Apologies to those who hate Lost)......


She never tells him it's shoes, or what to use, period. Just something. What I find interesting, I accept this as part of the "science" of the show. Locke has to have something on him that belonged to Christian Shephard. I see that as some sort of "cosmic" balance, you see it as some sort of "mystic" balance. Yet, you yourself, Killgore, the atheist, is the man of science, and see that scene as talking about faith. I, and atheist, see that as science.

Gee, maybe point made, by the producers.


Interesting , it is a very blurry line. I can see both interpretations. What about the flight? Jack, Kate and Linus knew about it from Faraday's mom. They hinted that Hurley had a reason to know about the flight (I suspect it's because he has the numbers working for him) but a can guarantee that they are never going to explain why the pilot was on the flight. It was just a "coincidence". I suspect they will also never explain why Sayid was on the flight either. Why can the Island bring some people in but not others?
These are the things they need to explain otherwise it just starts to look like a cheap plot device to cover which actors renewed their contracts.
I'm not really being too picky, just any explanation will do. They are running the risk of falling into the same trap as Twin Peaks. After a while it just became a series of random events because it's what the writers wanted to do that week.

249 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:25:07pm

re: #212 Mich-again

How about "Federal Reserve" Its not Federal and there is nothing in Reserve.

Social Security Account.

Social they leave off the -ist.
Security, anything but.
Account, ROFLMAO.

250 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:25:09pm

re: #215 Cognito

Luckily we've got about six crates of them in the pantry. That should tide us over until the weekend.

Give a man a crate of donuts, he eats for a few days. Teach him how to make donuts, he eats for a lifetime.

251 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:25:34pm

re: #185 Dark_Falcon

The truly sick thing is that the Creationists actually had the better man or their side. Bryan was an honest and decent man, who truly loved his country and fellow man, even if he was often wrong. Darrow was an amoral Chicago lawyer who happened to be better than most other lawyers.

I wouldn't characterize it as sick that a good person such as Jennings was on their side. I'm not saying religious people, even today, are sick, amoral beings. In fact, its quite to the contrary.

They just don't understand the simple concept that you cannot teach creationism in classrooms.

252 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:25:54pm

re: #229 VioletTiger

The glue holding it on never dried so well/

Slartibartfast was not in charge of California.

253 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:26:11pm

re: #244 skicougar

I'm not going to tolerate encroachments on my First Amendment rights.

Not now, not later, not ever.

So take your creationism back to church where it belongs.

254 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:26:14pm

re: #244 skicougar

And the point is, creationism SHOULD BE KEPT OUT OF SCIENCE CLASS. Don't you agree?

255 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:26:19pm

re: #202 FurryOldGuyJeans

Is that snow in that panorama? In Hawaii?!?

Yup.

The top of Mauna Kea gets very cold. Bring your jacket if you visit.

256 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:26:28pm

re: #247 zombie

They are NOT getting the Christian message out. They are discrediting Christianity by using bully tactics and trickery to promote their faith. What a terrible example. They are damaging Christianity in the public eye, not spreading the word.

DING!

Just like all those letters Charles gets, so full of Christian love and compassion.

257 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:26:32pm

re: #201 zombie

Try wearing a Bush t-shirt to a "Diversity" meeting.

258 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:26:41pm

re: #181 Brit in Japan

Right class, last term we learned how to extract DNA from bananas and analyse it.

That's not a joke bit, by the way. A Japanese friend's kids in high school did this experiment recently and showed me all sorts of confusing numbers... awesome. Science has moved on since I was at school.

What a shame these people want to go backwards.

BiJ.

259 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:27:04pm

re: #237 jcm

Additional the Disco Institute is using DECIT in an attempt to get the Christian message out.

How they rationalize that I've yet to even begin to fathom. I'm pretty sure it's not any of the Bibles I've read.

WHAT? Christian message. I haven't seen a whole lot of Christianity in it.

260 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:27:13pm

re: #233 Sharmuta

The states won't adopt ID, the school boards won't adopt ID, so now they've whittled it down to the individual teachers, and they must be granted protections from eeevil Darwinists insisting that religion isn't science.

And once these teachers are given special rights in science, what's to stop special rights in other classes? It's a slippery slope, and lawmakers would be wise to reconsider this foul agenda.

I think you're wrong in your first sentence about some states.

261 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:27:33pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

If I said it once, I said it a thousand times; I love Sharm when she's angry ;) Hehe.

262 Killer Tomato  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:27:42pm

re: #244 skicougar

it's also hard to argue that allowing Biblical theory to be discussed would not have positive results of discussing Bible theory, verses and concepts by students, their parents and peers resulting in more positive and less detrimental choices by students.

It's a wonderful idea!
In Sunday School or at home.

263 Afrocity  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:27:43pm

re: #228 Cognito

So. Is it AFroCITY, as in a city of awesome hairstyles?

Or AfROCity, as in an awesome hairstyle with velocity?

Afro City

264 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:27:48pm

re: #245 MandyManners

Why dont' you fucking do some basic research? Hmmmmmmmmmm?

Er... I thought I was doing just that...

265 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:28:01pm
"A donut with one bite of it also looks like a C, but it is not as good as a cookie.
The Moon sometimes looks like a C, but you can't eat that..."
--Cookie Monster, "C is For Cookie"
266 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:28:04pm

Who had #244 in the pool?

267 Afrocity  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:28:12pm

re: #261 Basho

If I said it once, I said it a thousand times; I love Sharm when she's angry ;) Hehe.

Sharmuta is DA BOMB!

268 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:28:43pm

re: #246 Fried Spam

But a science teacher can. Especially in a public school setting, where they can teach their beliefs, as atheism is not a religion. Any reaction to atheistic teaching is considered a religion, and thus cannot be taught.

The theory of evolution is as religious/atheistic as the theory of gravity.

269 Haverwilde  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:28:50pm

Based on what I am seeing, I think the trolls are waiting under the bridge until a new thread pulls us in another direction. That's when they will spring out and try spewing their non-sense.

270 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:28:55pm

re: #259 ggt

WHAT? Christian message. I haven't seen a whole lot of Christianity in it.

Heh, not very good at much are they.

271 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:29:43pm

re: #254 Walter L. Newton

And the point is, creationism SHOULD BE KEPT OUT OF SCIENCE CLASS. Don't you agree?


Of course not. It doesn't matter it it's true or not. It's all about instilling proper morality.

272 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:29:50pm

re: #244 skicougar

I concede that promoting Obama does not equate to teaching creationism,

What? Whoever said that?

What the fuck are you ingesting?

273 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:30:02pm

re: #269 Haverwilde

Based on what I am seeing, I think the trolls are waiting under the bridge until a new thread pulls us in another direction. That's when they will spring out and try spewing their non-sense.

It takes time for them to construct their Voodoo dolls.

274 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:30:09pm

re: #244 skicougar

Do you care at ALL about the Constitution?

275 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:30:16pm

re: #247 zombie

They are NOT getting the Christian message out.

The only way to "evangelize" is to live the example. It can't be done with words.

276 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:30:33pm

re: #263 Afrocity

Afro City

Very descriptive. :)

277 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:30:57pm

re: #265 Dar ul Harb

Listening to C is for Cookie... I don't what it does to me... Brings my mind back 20 years. It's such a joy.

278 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:31:17pm

re: #246 Fried Spam

But a science teacher can. Especially in a public school setting, where they can teach their beliefs, as atheism is not a religion. Any reaction to atheistic teaching is considered a religion, and thus cannot be taught.

Wrong. Atheism is a philosophical position, and doesn't belong in a class not expressly devoted to teaching philosophical positions (and then it would have to teach a full range of them). Such classes are generally not found below college level. Teachers aren't paid to teach their beliefs in public school class; they're paid to teach the curriculum. History. English. Mathematics. Science.

279 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:31:18pm

re: #215 Cognito

We're all over it.

Luckily we've got about six crates of them in the pantry. That should tide us over until the weekend.

Got any glazed doughnuts, Cog? I like those better. :)

280 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:31:36pm

re: #266 Killgore Trout

Who had #244 in the pool?

all yours!

281 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:32:13pm

re: #270 jcm

Heh, not very good at much are they.

propaganda! they are semi-good at propaganda.

oh, and raising money.

282 rain of lead  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:32:20pm

re: #191 LudwigVanQuixote

hey guy!
just read the reworking of your evo troll hammer and I must say I am impressed.
much leaner and meaner, can you repost on this thread?
let the other lizards peer review :0

283 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:32:31pm

re: #244 skicougar

If there is a point somewhere in all the verbiage you spewed, you certainly hid it well.

284 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:32:35pm

re: #272 MandyManners

What? Whoever said that?

What the fuck are you ingesting?

I was thinking the same thing.

285 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:32:40pm

re: #280 ggt

I'm a winnah!

286 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:32:42pm

Uh, science is not about atheism. One doesn't conduct a physics experiment and then announce: "see there is no God."

287 Killer Tomato  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:33:04pm

re: #266 Killgore Trout

Who had #244 in the pool?

What is it - closest without going over, or just closest?
I think someone had 250.

288 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:33:22pm

When they talk about teaching creationism in schools...what exactly does that mean? Are they going to bring in Genesis and read it out loud? Are they going to have a large class discussion on it?

I hardly think that teaching creationism to today's kids would really so much indoctrinate children with these religious teachings. In fact, if anything, it could only hurt the creationist cause. I took Biology last year, and our teacher did in fact have a quick class discussion on creationism, and when ti was followed by evolution, most of the kids simply started laughing at the whole concept of creationism.

Teaching creationism would really only be a symbolic threat to this country - a clear abandonment of the first amendment, and as discussed earlier in this thread, a precedent for Muslims to increase their clamor for 'equal' (unlimited) time.

289 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:33:36pm

re: #282 rain of lead

hey guy!
just read the reworking of your evo troll hammer and I must say I am impressed.
much leaner and meaner, can you repost on this thread?
let the other lizards peer review :0

yes, please repost.

290 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:33:46pm

re: #275 Mich-again

The only way to "evangelize" is to live the example. It can't be done with words.

You have to live it, then the words you do speak will carry weight.

291 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:33:52pm

re: #264 Cognito

Er... I thought I was doing just that...

Well, there's yer problem.

(I just clicked her avatar)

292 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:33:56pm

re: #279 Dark_Falcon

Got any glazed doughnuts, Cog? I like those better. :)

First they came for the powdered donuts...

/sorry

293 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:33:58pm

Hey lizards...what have I missed today?

294 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:34:04pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

I'm a winnah!

As long as you taint a whina!

295 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:34:10pm

re: #255 Racer X

Yup.

The top of Mauna Kea gets very cold. Bring your jacket if you visit.


And the air is very thin. Didn't feel so well up there.

296 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:34:13pm

I don't know if this particular elephant in the room has been clearly articulated in one place. So I want to give it a go...

The reason we oppose bills like this is ultimately the same reason that we are anti-jihad. We do not want a bunch of intolerant religious fanatics imposing a backwards theocracy on our American democracy.

297 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:34:14pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

I'm a winnah!

Still no meltdown. Just some odd swamp gas flatulent mutterings so far.

298 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:34:32pm

re: #251 traderjoe9

I wouldn't characterize it as sick that a good person such as Jennings was on their side. I'm not saying religious people, even today, are sick, amoral beings. In fact, its quite to the contrary.

They just don't understand the simple concept that you cannot teach creationism in classrooms.

I think I misused sick. What I meant to say was that the strange thing was how the dishonest man was the one defending evolution in that case; As opposed to now, where the creationists are the dishonest ones.

299 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:34:33pm

re: #287 Killer Tomato

What is it - closest without going over, or just closest?
I think someone had 250.

I had #260. Did I win?

300 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:34:43pm

re: #244 skicougar

Now, i am not Obama(naive) enough to think that more than a few creationists are looking to teach your child about God; but you will not run out of groups looking to put a pretty face on what they are looking to sell no matter where you are.

Since we will not live in an face value world ever, we should allow for these people to teach creationism.

Two examples why:
Poll: Only 3 Percent of Teens See Clergy as Role Models
[Link: www.christianpost.com...]

From the above article:
"But the poll’s major finding is that although the overwhelming majority of teens (80 percent) believe they are ethically prepared to make moral business decisions, nearly 40 percent believe they need to “break the rules” in order to succeed.

More than one in four teenagers (27 percent) think behaving violently is sometimes, often or always acceptable, according to the poll. One in five teens (20 percent) reported to have personally behaved violently toward another person in the past year."

and: Teachers support obama in classroom
[Link: www.parentdish.com...]

Which includes:
"In Virginia, the Teachers Union sent its members an e-mail encouraging them to wear "blue" to show support for Barack Obama. The e-mail reads:

"Let's make Obama Blue Day a day of Action! Barack the vote! There are people out there not yet registered. You teach some of them. Others, including our members, remain on the fence!"

>Now, we all know Obama is okay with giving partial birth abortion a pass. No matter what you believe, its very hard to argue that's not murder and Obama was okay with it.

I concede that promoting Obama does not equate to teaching creationism, but given the quotes from teens above; it's also hard to argue that allowing Biblical theory to be discussed would not have positive results of discussing Bible theory, verses and concepts by students, their parents and peers resulting in more positive and less detrimental choices by students.

For those against this, you're expecting what ? Nationwide David Koresh and Waco incidents ? Pulease.

So since our schools have been arsenic-ed by leftist PC politics, your course of treatment is to dose the patient with creationist strychnine? Puh-LEEEZE! If parents want their kids to discuss Bible verses, they can send them to Sunday School. Or to a private parochial school.

301 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:03pm

re: #294 ggt

I am, however, a winer. Drinking some nice Yellow Tail Cab Sav.

302 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:05pm

re: #266 Killgore Trout

Who had #244 in the pool?

Mmm. That strikes me less as "meltdown" than "rambling dissent."

303 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:07pm

re: #297 FurryOldGuyJeans

Still no meltdown. Just some odd swamp gas flatulent mutterings so far.

Primordial goop. The stuff of life.

/Looking for a giant raccoon.

304 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:15pm

The country would be better if we could just get everyone back to Jesus, so let's use public schools to accomplish that goal.

This is the unconstrained mindset hooking up with religion.

Now- people on the right tend to be of the constrained mindset, so there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on with some people on the right who are trying to occupy both mindsets.

What's worse, is in this debate they try to use our constrained mindset Founders against us. The distort every little aspect they can get their hands on to furter their agenda.

And they hate getting called on it.

305 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:17pm

re: #282 rain of lead

hey guy!
just read the reworking of your evo troll hammer and I must say I am impressed.
much leaner and meaner, can you repost on this thread?
let the other lizards peer review :0

Thanks and sure, but is it kosher to repost?

306 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:21pm

re: #271 Killgore Trout

It's all about instilling proper morality.

/proper morality, what is that?

307 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:22pm

re: #287 Killer Tomato

What is it - closest without going over, or just closest?
I think someone had 250.

I think I had 229.

308 Killer Tomato  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:27pm

re: #299 Noam Sayin'

I don't think so.
Killgore's saying he won.

309 Afrocity  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:29pm

re: #276 FurryOldGuyJeans

Very descriptive. :)

Same as my Facebook Page
Join face Book LGF
(shameless plug)

310 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:44pm

re: #248 Killgore Trout

Carryover from the previous thread (Apologies to those who hate Lost)......

Interesting , it is a very blurry line. I can see both interpretations. What about the flight? Jack, Kate and Linus knew about it from Faraday's mom. They hinted that Hurley had a reason to know about the flight (I suspect it's because he has the numbers working for him) but a can guarantee that they are never going to explain why the pilot was on the flight. It was just a "coincidence". I suspect they will also never explain why Sayid was on the flight either. Why can the Island bring some people in but not others?
These are the things they need to explain otherwise it just starts to look like a cheap plot device to cover which actors renewed their contracts.
I'm not really being too picky, just any explanation will do. They are running the risk of falling into the same trap as Twin Peaks. After a while it just became a series of random events because it's what the writers wanted to do that week.

First off, they are not explaining why Sayid, Hurley, and Kate are on the flight, except that they are.

Sayid has been picked up by a marshall, from some country, since he was on a killing spree, working for Ben.

Bens lawyer got Hurley out of prison, as he said he would do 3 weeks ago, and I suspect Charlie "visited" Hurley and told him to go. Notice that Hurley had a guitar case? And what would have happened if he didn't have that case? He said "I can't swim" and the guitar case was like a flotation device.

Kate said something like "don't ask me any questions about Aaron." I suspect that Kate was "visited" by Claire, told to go, and Aaron is with his grandmother.

Ben, bloodied, you saw him outside of a marina. Right? He was intent on killing Penelope. Perhaps he did. That would be enough to make Desmond to return to the Island, by BOAT.

Lapidas, the pilot, was SUPPOSE to be the pilot of 815. He was drunk and another pilot took the flight. And that pilot was eliminated by the smoke monster in episode 2, season 1. Lapidas was suppose to be on the Island.

In all these cases, it follows what Mrs. Hawkings said in the episode "The Constant" to Desmond.

"You cannot change the future. The universe has a way of course correcting"

And that's what we are seeing again. The Island wants a certain balance, for what ever reasons, and even if someone DIES, if the Island is not done with them, they can't "go on."

311 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:35:58pm

re: #84 FurryOldGuyJeans

Well, if you say one is kosher I will to accept that assessment. ;)

I'm basing it on last night's discussion. I really need to see a troll in person to be sure.

312 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:36:05pm

re: #300 Salamantis

So since our schools have been arsenic-ed by leftist PC politics, your course of treatment is to dose the patient with creationist strychnine? Puh-LEEEZE! If parents want their kids to discuss Bible verses, they can send them to Sunday School. Or to a private parochial school.

I know of quite a few Protestant Religious Schools here in the Seattle area. So no denomination need feel slighted.

313 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:36:14pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

I am, however, a winer. Drinking some nice Yellow Tail Cab Sav.

ahem, I think, that would be a "wino".

314 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:36:23pm

re: #306 Killian Bundy

Don't ask me, I'm godless and I'm busy drowning puppies in a bucket.

315 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:36:38pm

re: #268 FurryOldGuyJeans

The theory of evolution is as religious/atheistic as the theory of gravity.

You've been around here long enough to know that lots of people disagree with that statement. ;>

On the atheist side, folks like Dawkins, Hitchens, are the sorts that would say evolution does indeed disprove God.

On the religious side, the DI folks... well, that's been covered.

316 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:36:50pm

re: #293 NJDhockeyfan

Hey lizards...what have I missed today?

Go up to 244........

317 mattm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:37:06pm

Dennis Miller on Leno tonight...

318 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:37:17pm

Wow, Carlin was really dark there towards the end.

319 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:37:21pm

re: #304 Sharmuta

The country would be better if we could just get everyone back to Jesus, so let's use public schools to accomplish that goal.

This is the unconstrained mindset hooking up with religion.

Now- people on the right tend to be of the constrained mindset, so there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on with some people on the right who are trying to occupy both mindsets.

What's worse, is in this debate they try to use our constrained mindset Founders against us. The distort every little aspect they can get their hands on to furter their agenda.

And they hate getting called on it.

Ah, but exactly who's idea of Jesus? The Pope's? The Morman's? or Miley Cyrus's?

320 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:38:06pm

re: #314 Killgore Trout

Don't ask me, I'm godless and I'm busy drowning puppies in a bucket.

Stomping kittens tomorrow?

321 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:38:07pm

re: #310 Walter L. Newton

Ah, that reminds me; I missed what happened to Linus. Did I miss it or are they going to show it later?

322 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:38:09pm

re: #277 Basho

Listening to C is for Cookie... I don't what it does to me... Brings my mind back 20 years. It's such a joy.

You DO know, I assume, that Cookie Monster was no longer allowed to eat cookies on Sesame Street? And that a public outcry saved his name and behavior?

What happened was, they were going to change his name to "Veggie Monster," but the name-change was leaked, and there was such an outcry, that PBS packpedaled and claimed it was all "just a rumor" and then behind the scenes mollified the changeover. According to wikipedia,

In 2006, in response to growing concerns about record levels of childhood obesity in the U.S.A., Sesame Street began airing segments entitled Healthy Habits for Life. In these segments, the Muppet characters of Sesame Street talk about healthy habits, such as eating properly and exercising. The Healthy Habits for Life segments spawned false Internet rumors that Cookie Monster's name had been changed to Veggie Monster or would be taken off the show entirely.

In a 2007 appearance on Martha Stewart's TV program, Cookie Monster explained his new philosophy that "Cookies are a sometime food."

On February 10, 2008, NPR host Elizabeth Blair interviewed Cookie Monster for the All Things Considered segment In Character. He answered the Proust Questionnaire, as well as revealing some of his favorite and non-favorite things.

In a June 19, 2008, appearance on The Colbert Report, Cookie Monster again explained that "Cookies are a sometimes food." He also attempted to eat Stephen Colbert's Peabody Award. Colbert had asked agitatedly why Cookie Monster had "abandoned the pro-cookie agenda" and thus caused fruit to become the favorite snack of American children, according to a study Colbert had heard. Colbert criticized Cookie Monster for not wearing a cookie lapel pin. Cookie Monster also claimed to have "crazy times" during the '70s and '80s. He also referred to himself as "the Robert Downey Jr. of cookies." After eating a cookie to prove he still likes cookies, Cookie Monster asked if the Peabody Award, a round medallion on a small pedestal, was a cookie. When Colbert returned to speak to Cookie Monster at the end of the show, the award had disappeared and Cookie Monster was wiping his mouth with a napkin.

This is the official story. In reality, they had changed his name to Veggie Monster, but changed it back before any of the shows aired.

323 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:38:12pm

re: #319 ggt

Ah, but exactly who's idea of Jesus? The Pope's? The Morman's? or Miley Cyrus's?

Cool Hand Luke's

324 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:38:30pm

God does not need any help

325 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:38:41pm

re: #308 Killer Tomato

I don't think so.
Killgore's saying he won.

Yeah, he's also drinking Yellowtail Cabernet Sauvignon.

*ducks*

326 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:38:47pm

re: #316 jcm

Go up to 244........

Oh my!

327 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:38:51pm

re: #319 ggt

Ah, but exactly who's idea of Jesus? The Pope's? The Morman's? or Miley Cyrus's?

Judging how these people who supposedly represent him behave, it's certainly not the Jesus from the Bible...

328 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:39:05pm

re: #313 ggt

One of my favorite things about Paris is that the Winos still drink wine. Very quaint.

329 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:39:10pm

re: #314 Killgore Trout

Don't ask me, I'm godless and I'm busy drowning puppies in a bucket.

Sure, puppies.

Try that with CHIMPS!

330 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:39:12pm

re: #304 Sharmuta

The country would be better if we could just get everyone back to Jesus, so let's use public schools to accomplish that goal.

This is the unconstrained mindset hooking up with religion.

Now- people on the right tend to be of the constrained mindset, so there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on with some people on the right who are trying to occupy both mindsets.

What's worse, is in this debate they try to use our constrained mindset Founders against us. The distort every little aspect they can get their hands on to furter their agenda.

And they hate getting called on it.

Yep, Christian Theocracy coming in 2010, or sooner.

/brace for impact, nevermind that Obama will still be President

331 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:39:30pm

re: #323 Gus 802

Cool Hand Luke's

Ok, I'll go with that.

332 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:39:46pm

re: #320 MandyManners

No but they'll be eating fresh homemade lox. I figure I'll try it out on them first.

333 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:39:49pm

re: #278 Salamantis

Teachers aren't paid to teach their beliefs in public school class; they're paid to teach the curriculum.

Well then, let me tell you some teachers do volunteer work in the classroom. I have 3 kids who have only ever attended public schools. The oldest is in College now on a free ride for academics and the others are pretty much on the same track. And lo and behold, not a year has passed when my wife and I have had some kind of issue with one teacher or another for teachings half-truths and/or opinions. Public schools can work very well, but the parents have to stay on top of things every single day.

But don't think for a minute that every public school teacher is teaching just the approved curriculum.

334 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:39:54pm

re: #288 traderjoe9

When they talk about teaching creationism in schools...what exactly does that mean? Are they going to bring in Genesis and read it out loud? Are they going to have a large class discussion on it?

I hardly think that teaching creationism to today's kids would really so much indoctrinate children with these religious teachings. In fact, if anything, it could only hurt the creationist cause. I took Biology last year, and our teacher did in fact have a quick class discussion on creationism, and when ti was followed by evolution, most of the kids simply started laughing at the whole concept of creationism.

Teaching creationism would really only be a symbolic threat to this country - a clear abandonment of the first amendment, and as discussed earlier in this thread, a precedent for Muslims to increase their clamor for 'equal' (unlimited) time.

As Cognito has demostrated, sometimes a symbolic threat can still be a grave one. I know that you know this, but I thought it should be said again.

335 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:40:03pm

re: #314 Killgore Trout


You saw my re: #310 Walter L. Newton

My first sentence is wrong. What I was trying to say is you are not getting the reason "why" Sayid, Kate and Hurley got on the flight because I suspect that you will see that as "flashbacks" in future episodes, how and why they got on Flight 316.

336 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:40:05pm

re: #278 Salamantis

Wrong. Atheism is a philosophical position, and doesn't belong in a class not expressly devoted to teaching philosophical positions


Agreed!


Teachers aren't paid to teach their beliefs in public school class; they're paid to teach the curriculum. History. English. Mathematics. Science.

Um, you haven't been paying attention to the state of public education in the U.S., have you? While I believe that the number of good teachers far outweighs the number of bad teachers, there are far too many bad teachers that teach things other than what they should be teaching.

337 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:40:06pm

re: #328 Killgore Trout

One of my favorite things about Paris is that the Winos still drink wine. Very quaint.

do they drink Fwench Whine?

338 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:40:09pm

re: #317 mattm

Dennis Miller on Leno tonight...

Might have to tune that in.

For the first time ever.

339 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:40:32pm

re: #315 Fried Spam

You've been around here long enough to know that lots of people disagree with that statement. ;>

On the atheist side, folks like Dawkins, Hitchens, are the sorts that would say evolution does indeed disprove God.

On the religious side, the DI folks... well, that's been covered.

Atheism is still a belief system, a choice of view about metaphysics. They can say evolution disproves God, but that statement is no more valid than if someone says the universe proves God.

Science is mute on metaphysical questions. It doesn't mean some scientist don't have opinions.

340 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:40:40pm

re: #310 Walter L. Newton

First off, they are not explaining why Sayid, Hurley, and Kate are on the flight, except that they are.

Sayid has been picked up by a marshall, from some country, since he was on a killing spree, working for Ben.

Bens lawyer got Hurley out of prison, as he said he would do 3 weeks ago, and I suspect Charlie "visited" Hurley and told him to go. Notice that Hurley had a guitar case? And what would have happened if he didn't have that case? He said "I can't swim" and the guitar case was like a flotation device.

Kate said something like "don't ask me any questions about Aaron." I suspect that Kate was "visited" by Claire, told to go, and Aaron is with his grandmother.

Ben, bloodied, you saw him outside of a marina. Right? He was intent on killing Penelope. Perhaps he did. That would be enough to make Desmond to return to the Island, by BOAT.

Lapidas, the pilot, was SUPPOSE to be the pilot of 815. He was drunk and another pilot took the flight. And that pilot was eliminated by the smoke monster in episode 2, season 1. Lapidas was suppose to be on the Island.

In all these cases, it follows what Mrs. Hawkings said in the episode "The Constant" to Desmond.

"You cannot change the future. The universe has a way of course correcting"

And that's what we are seeing again. The Island wants a certain balance, for what ever reasons, and even if someone DIES, if the Island is not done with them, they can't "go on."

Whats your theory on why Jin was wearing Dharma clothing?

341 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:40:48pm

re: #267 Afrocity

Sharmuta is DA BOMB!

I swear her Smurfette avatar starts stamping her feet when Sharmuta gets angry. ;)

342 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:40:55pm

re: #290 jcm

You have to live it, then the words you do speak will carry weight.

That is a better explanation than the one I posted.

343 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:41:07pm

re: #326 NJDhockeyfan

Oh my!

Care to translate it for me....
;-)

344 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:41:41pm

re: #322 zombie


Colbert criticized Cookie Monster for not wearing a cookie lapel pin.

ROFL! That's just hilarious!

Anyway, it's their intellectual property. They can't take away the Cookie Monster in my soul, though.

345 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:42:00pm

re: #315 Fried Spam

Disagree all you want. Science is not about arriving at a consensus or taking a popularity contest.

346 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:42:47pm

re: #322 zombie

Are you kidding?

/Really asking.

347 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:42:48pm

re: #335 Walter L. Newton

I don't think they are ever going to explain the pilot being on that flight. I'll be very surprised if they do? Re: Sayid; Who get's extradited to Guam? I guess maybe a Gitmo type thing.

348 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:42:51pm

re: #344 Basho

ROFL! That's just hilarious!

Anyway, it's their intellectual property. They can't take away the Cookie Monster in my soul, though.

My girl scout cookies arrived today. Samoas. One box gone already, although I had help.

349 ArmyWife  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:42:57pm

Good night everyone. I'm off to Vermont tomorrow and someone who shall remain nameless booked a 7am flight. I'll try to log on while I'm up there to catch up, but if not, be good!

350 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:43:00pm

re: #337 ggt
Wee!

351 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:43:05pm

I'm not angry- I'm passionate. Apparently my passion for defending my American birthrights is offensive and/or problematic for some. That's unfortunate.

352 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:43:11pm

re: #324 Ojoe

God does not need any help

Beg to differ.

We are commanded to go out and preach the Gospel to every living creature.

353 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:43:16pm

re: #341 FurryOldGuyJeans

I swear her Smurfette avatar starts stamping her feet when Sharmuta gets angry. ;)

Gave use a great visual! Thanks!

354 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:43:24pm

re: #321 Killgore Trout

Ah, that reminds me; I missed what happened to Linus. Did I miss it or are they going to show it later?

Well, I suggested something above. He was determined to kill Penny, Widmores daughter, since he blames Widmore for the death of his "daughter" Alex.

I suspect we will see just why Hurley, Sayid, Kate and Ben made flight 316 as future "flashbacks" (how's that for confusing) in upcoming episodes.

But my theory, he tried to kill Penny and got bloodied, maybe had a run in with Desmond. After all, he was on the phone from a MARINA. I suspect he and Desmond got into it, and Desmond was injured someway by Ben, and when Desmond comes around, he's headed off to find the Island, by boat (get it, just like the first time).

355 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:43:35pm

re: #346 Dark_Falcon

Are you kidding?

/Really asking.

Not kidding. Click the link in the comment and read it for yourself.

356 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:43:49pm

re: #345 FurryOldGuyJeans

Disagree all you want. Science is not about arriving at a consensus or taking a popularity contest.

You have to admit Miss Particle Accelerator 2008 was HOT!
//

357 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:43:50pm

re: #345 FurryOldGuyJeans

Disagree all you want. Science is not about arriving at a consensus or taking a popularity contest.

It is about a consensus, just a consensus of skeptics who were convinced by the evidence and the force of reason.

358 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:43:58pm
359 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:44:04pm

re: #352 MandyManners

Beg to differ.

We are commanded to go out and preach the Gospel to every living creature.

People, right? I did my time as a missionary, but I'm not going to preach the squirrels, as much as I do like them.

360 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:44:04pm

re: #349 ArmyWife

Good night everyone. I'm off to Vermont tomorrow and someone who shall remain nameless booked a 7am flight. I'll try to log on while I'm up there to catch up, but if not, be good!

Have fun and fly safe!

361 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:44:07pm

re: #328 Killgore Trout

One of my favorite things about Paris is that the Winos still drink wine. Very quaint.

And the government pays for it!

362 rain of lead  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:44:11pm

re: #305 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks and sure, but is it kosher to repost?

please do and as there is a second from ggt it's good.
the lizards need to see it. if you can manage to get it all in one post that would be best but if not two will work.

363 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:44:15pm

re: #336 Fried Spam

Your cure is worse than the disease.

364 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:44:15pm

bbiab

365 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:44:16pm

re: #356 jcm

You have to admit Miss Particle Accelerator 2008 was HOT!
//

I used to date her....

////

366 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:44:32pm

re: #346 Dark_Falcon

Are you kidding?

/Really asking.

Actually I think I remember hearing the song "Cookies Are a Sometimes Food." Almost tossed my own cookies.

Doesn't he still sing it sometimes?

367 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:44:39pm

re: #362 rain of lead

please do and as there is a second from ggt it's good.
the lizards need to see it. if you can manage to get it all in one post that would be best but if not two will work.

ok

368 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:44:39pm

re: #315 Fried Spam

You've been around here long enough to know that lots of people disagree with that statement. ;>

On the atheist side, folks like Dawkins, Hitchens, are the sorts that would say evolution does indeed disprove God.

On the religious side, the DI folks... well, that's been covered.

More than a billion Catholics beg to disagree with you.

As does Lao Stinky.

And Francis S. Collins, the Christian geneticist who mapped the human genome:

[Link: discovermagazine.com...]

369 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:45:02pm

re: #304 Sharmuta

What's worse, is in this debate they try to use our constrained mindset Founders against us.

I am not sure what you mean by that. I know for sure that Thomas Jefferson would be opposed to teaching creationism in a public school science class.

370 bluejudad  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:45:04pm

Charles... your approach to this topic resembles Al Gore's to Global Warming.

371 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:45:28pm

re: #351 Sharmuta

I'm not angry- I'm passionate. Apparently my passion for defending my American birthrights is offensive and/or problematic for some. That's unfortunate.

That's why we love you :D

372 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:45:30pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Charles... your approach to this topic resembles Al Gore's to Global Warming.

Ding ding ding ding!

373 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:45:43pm

RE: #244

Hmmm, looks like a variation on; "if you accept evolution you are eeeevil". That's number 6 in the DI playbook.

The playbook is holding so far! Can't wait to see the improved hammer.

BiJ

374 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:45:51pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Aren't you such an fuck wad. Bye. Feel good now?

375 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:45:52pm

re: #351 Sharmuta

I'm not angry- I'm passionate. Apparently my passion for defending my American birthrights is offensive and/or problematic for some. That's unfortunate.

And delusional if you seriously think a Christian Theocracy is looming in this country.

/go ahead, ding me down again, doesn't change reality

376 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:45:59pm

re: #357 LudwigVanQuixote

It is about a consensus, just a consensus of skeptics who were convinced by the evidence and the force of reason.

You want to go in the direction of Scientists Consensus with AGW/ACC? ;)

377 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:46:10pm

We have a winner!

378 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:46:32pm

re: #244 skicougar

Quick, look over here, there's a much bigger problem!
(Wave's hand high up and off to the side)
/

379 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:46:40pm

re: #370 bluejudad

LUDWIG! Did you see this post? This is what I was talking about earlier.

380 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:46:53pm

re: #355 zombie

Not kidding. Click the link in the comment and read it for yourself.

I did read the article. But I don't see where the official story is contradicted.

381 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:46:56pm

Ah. C'est lui.

382 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:47:01pm

There are three parts. Part 1.

Some frequently raised objections by Creationists:

Evolution is only a theory it is not a fact…
Theory in science does not mean what you think it means. A theory is not just something that people might believe is true. A theory is a rigorously tested, by multiple observers, falsifiable and predictive model of the physical world. A theory is consistent with all known observations. In the case of evolution, which has been around for close to 150 years, we are now looking at millions of man years of observation which is consistent with the theory and its predictions. In short, a theory is something proven to be fact beyond the standards of any court of law. Outside of theorems, which are mathematical statements proven to always be true, scientific theories are the most rigorously true statements made by man.

The Universe is only around 6000 years old…
Forget evolution for a moment and look at astronomy. Look up at the night sky. If you see something which is farther than 6000 light years away, that light took over 6000 years to get here. This is inescapable. If Paris is a 10 hour flight away and you show up in Paris, you had to leave at least 10 hours ago. The vast majority of what we see out there is thousands, millions and even billions of light years away.

Forget evolution for a moment and look at Physics. Consider nuclear decays. These are little atomic clocks. We can date rocks on the Earth to over 4,000,000,000 years old. If someone tells you not to believe that we know how to calculate these rates, then how is it we know how to build nuclear reactors and atomic bombs and those things work?

Forget evolution for a moment and look at geology. Rivers erode the Earth. The Earth has strata that take years to form. Mountains rise and decay. When we look at things like the Grand Canyon or Continental drift, we know that the Earth is much older than 6000 years old. It took a long time for the continents to get into their present shape.

Now look at Evolution, if you want to say the Earth is young, you are not just facing evolution but every branch of science. If you argue that God made the Earth already old, that means you believe He set up the whole visible universe and all of those clocks to lie to us. It is part of my faith that He always tells the truth. Also, if He is willing to deceive on a universal scale, how do you know that He did not also deceive in the words of scripture? Perhaps adultery really is the way to go, but He lied there too? NO, it is much better to believe He tells the truth and does not deceive.

I can not accept randomness. God runs the world…
The definition of random is a future event that can not be predicted. God already knows the future, so by definition, no event is random to him. You may not know the outcome of a coin toss, it is random to you, but if you are a believer then you believe that He does know the outcome. It was not random to Him. There is no contradiction. The randomness that we perceive does not inhibit you from believing that God runs the world anyway.

Further, the essence of quantum mechanics is inherent randomness. It is built into the very framework of the theory, and proof that we got that theory right is that you are reading these words on a transistor using computer. Transistors were invented by understand QM and they rely on it for their functioning. Is quantum theory also heresy? If it is wrong, how are you reading this?

Finally, Evolution is not completely random. Natural selection removes random things that don’t work.

383 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:47:03pm

Anybody have a marker on 370?

384 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:47:19pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Charles... your approach to this topic resembles Al Gore's to Global Warming.

I bet your mommie is proud.

385 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:47:24pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Charles... your approach to this topic resembles Al Gore's to Global Warming.

Celebrities, movies, a nobel peace prize? Charles, please tell me there's no massive weight gain and beard.

Wait! Are we the celebrities? I feel so glamorous--where are my talking points?

386 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:47:24pm

Part Two:

I have the right to set standards for what my children hear in school….
Yes you do… provided that you do not violate the establishment clause of the Constitution and force my kids to listen to your dogma.

Intelligent Design is a competing theory…
Horse Hockey! You can not do an experiment on God. The notion is not testable or falsifiable. It makes no predictions. It explains nothing. By definition it is not a theory and it can never be one. It is not science, it is a religious statement. By definition, faith is belief in those things which can not be proven. ID can not be proven. By definition it is an article of faith. As such it has no place in a science class except perhaps as an example of what science isn’t.

Irreducible complexity is proof of ID…
Horse Hockey again! Just on the basis of logic without getting into the science, saying “I have no clue how it got that way” is not proof of God or proof of anything. I don’t know simply means I don’t know.
As far as the science goes, look into the actual scientific journals and literature. You will find that we do have transition cases of very complicated systems where the individual parts change function in different contexts as the complexity is reduced.

There is a great scientific conspiracy to punish and exclude brave ID free thinking scientists…
ID is not science. They are no more “punished” than a mathematician would be if he kept swearing 2+2=17 or a preacher would be if he preached that Jesus was a short obese woman from Canada who promoted heroin use amongst teens.

Evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics…
Right, like all of those scientists never studied thermodynamics, just like you didn’t. The second law states that entropy always increases in a closed system. The Earth gets its energy from the sun. The Earth is not a closed system.

387 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:47:32pm

re: #378 CyanSnowHawk

Quick, look over here, there's a much bigger problem!
(Wave's hand high up and off to the side)
/

/facepalm

It's "LOOK AT THE BALLS ON THAT MONKEY!"

/

388 Sharmuta  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:47:33pm

re: #375 Killian Bundy

I dinged you down because I never said shit about a theocray in this thread- you did. You put words in my mouth. Piss off, these threads aren't going away no matter how much you piss and moan, whiner.

389 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:47:33pm

re: #330 Killian Bundy

Yep, Christian Theocracy coming in 2010, or sooner.

/brace for impact, nevermind that Obama will still be President

Islamic Sharia isn't coming in 2010 or sooner, either.

So I guess we shouldn't concern ourselves with what CAIR does any more than we, by your view, should concern ourselves with the Disco Institute.

390 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:47:46pm

re: #375 Killian Bundy

And delusional if you seriously think a Christian Theocracy is looming in this country.

/go ahead, ding me down again, doesn't change reality

So all this blather about ID, and the Discovery Institute and their Wedge Document is just a sham and conspiracy?

391 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:47:53pm

re: #348 EmmmieG

My girl scout cookies arrived today. Samoas. One box gone already, although I had help.


Ooooo, must find somebody to sell me some Thin Mints.

392 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:48:12pm

re: #310 Walter L. Newton

Do you think Ben tried to kill Penelope in revenge, or for the sole intent of making Desmond mad enough to return to the island?

393 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:48:13pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Al Gore lied.

Show me one lie about The DI and creationism.

394 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:48:23pm

re: #356 jcm

You have to admit Miss Particle Accelerator 2008 was HOT!
//

She had great bosons!

395 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:48:24pm

re: #386 LudwigVanQuixote

Nobody knows if the universe is a closed system either IIRC.

396 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:48:32pm

KILLGORE. I do all that typing, at least let me know you read it?

397 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:48:38pm

I guess I should watch the LOST episodes waiting on my DVR.

398 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:48:53pm

re: #357 LudwigVanQuixote

It is about a consensus, just a consensus of skeptics who were convinced by the evidence and the force of reason.

And admittedly my choice of word with consensus was inappropriate and not well thought out.

399 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:49:11pm

re: #382 LudwigVanQuixote

Theory in science does not mean what you think it means.

HuH? I know what a theory is. How do you know what I know?

400 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:49:22pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Any one who picked number 370 for the first meltdown, please post now and receive your updings.

401 Pabloanno  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:49:26pm

This is very interesting and fun!

402 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:49:37pm

re: #375 Killian Bundy

re: #388 Sharmuta

*ahem*

403 skicougar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:49:38pm

Guys,

i was just making the point that in classes of all different subjects today, kids are taught plenty of things their parents may not agree with; something that goes by global warming seems to come to mind for some reason.
the classroom, like everything else in life; does have views presented every day that have agendas; i'm quite okay with a bigger foot in the door for judeo-christian teachings.
you guys trying to keep this out will miss the 10 other things trying just as hard to get into school that may have worse consequences for your kids.

And, for the record; i'm a shake the sandals disciple. I believe everyone in the US gets a chance to hear the gospel at some point in their life; at that point; its your chioce to accept or reject it and we'll know or not know the consequences at death, so I don't push religion on anyone; I just believe judeo-christian principles have proven to be better for society when taught to children adn adults. Hard to argue that communism and secularism have had increased family disruption the greater God is removed.

Brand me a Jesus freak if you must.

404 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:49:40pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Good thinking.

/please go stand by the stairs

405 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:49:41pm

Part 3

But didn’t Darwin note that the eye was irreducibly complex… The Discovery Institute has many quotes from great scientists who have their own doubts…

The Discovery Institute is very good at taking quotes out of context and editing them for their own dishonest propaganda. In fact, they find a lot of dishonest ways to make it seem that the scientist in question said the exact opposite of what he actually said.

For instance, many will say that Darwin considered the mammalian eye to be a great mystery and problem for the theory of evolution.

They will produce the following quote from the Origin of Species:

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree".
-Charles Darwin

They end the quote there. It certainly seems like they are bringing a serious doubt from a serious scientist.

Here is the complete quote. Darwin actually is saying the opposite.

“To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.”

This shameless disingenuousness even has a name. It is called quote mining. The good people at DI are lying to you and distorting the facts in the name of science openly and in the name of God privately.

Intelligent Design and teaching the controversy have nothing to do with religion...

Then why is it that only fundamentalists see a controversy or want ID taught? Since ID is a non-provable hypothesis about a creator who intelligently designed life, how is it not a statement of faith?

406 Scion9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:49:53pm

re: #347 Killgore Trout

I don't think they are ever going to explain the pilot being on that flight. I'll be very surprised if they do? Re: Sayid; Who get's extradited to Guam? I guess maybe a Gitmo type thing.

Hawking picked that specific flight out of a rather long list, so not so much of a coincidence. Also, 'The Others' obviously command a great amount of power and wealth, so who can say if Frank even having that specific job is even coincidental.

Also, some flights to Southeast Asia stopover in Guam.

407 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:49:58pm

re: #394 Kosh's Shadow

She had great bosons!

Lots of charm too.

408 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:50:03pm

re: #388 Sharmuta

Eh... If I recall he was one of the ones who said Louisiana was an isolated incident and wouldn't spread around the country. So much for that prediction...

409 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:50:03pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Ok, who had 270?

410 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:50:33pm

re: #363 FurryOldGuyJeans

Your cure is worse than the disease.

I think you are confusing me with someone else. What 'cure' are you thinking I have proposed? I'm not in favor of teaching creationism in science class. But, I don't want atheism taught as science, either.

411 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:50:43pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Charles... your approach to this topic resembles Al Gore's to Global Warming.

No. Al has twisted the facts, or only used the data that supports his theory, ignoring the rest. There is nothing hidden or deceptive about these discussions.

412 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:50:56pm

re: #395 Ojoe

Nobody knows if the universe is a closed system either IIRC.

Actually with the cosmological constant being positive, it is certainly open... Though in the thermodynamic sense of the word there are some subtleties.

413 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:51:09pm

re: #401 Pabloanno

Oh, shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down. It I want your fucking opinion, I'll give it to your gutless self.

NEXT?

414 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:51:14pm

re: #388 Sharmuta

I dinged you down because I never said shit about a theocray in this thread- you did. You put words in my mouth.

/you forgot the emphasis on this thread

415 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:51:14pm

re: #333 Mich-again

Well then, let me tell you some teachers do volunteer work in the classroom. I have 3 kids who have only ever attended public schools. The oldest is in College now on a free ride for academics and the others are pretty much on the same track. And lo and behold, not a year has passed when my wife and I have had some kind of issue with one teacher or another for teachings half-truths and/or opinions. Public schools can work very well, but the parents have to stay on top of things every single day.

But don't think for a minute that every public school teacher is teaching just the approved curriculum.

Then they should be called out on it. And apparently, you do. But who wants to pass a law insulating them from that criticism?

416 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:51:29pm

re: #392 traderjoe9

Do you think Ben tried to kill Penelope in revenge, or for the sole intent of making Desmond mad enough to return to the island?

I don't think it matters. The Island keeps course correcting. I think this was the BEST episode of the season. I love the reaction of Lapidas, the pilot... "We're not going to Guam, are we?" There were so many clever (or stone cold) lines in this episode.

417 Pabloanno  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:52:11pm

re: #392 traderjoe9

Do you think Ben tried to kill Penelope in revenge, or for the sole intent of making Desmond mad enough to return to the island?

He promised Whidmore that he was going to kill his daughter. The side effect is Desmond on the boat returning to the island like the first time. It's a good theory.

418 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:52:15pm

re: #397 Racer X

I guess I should watch the LOST episodes waiting on my DVR.

Why didn't you say something? I would have squashed this chatter if these are spoilers for you.

419 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:52:26pm

re: #413 MandyManners

:)

420 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:52:59pm

re: #361 Walter L. Newton

Last time I was in Paris I had two unsolicited job offers (one with a Paris studio apartment included). They didn't know anything about me or my skill level but they are dying to hire foreigners; the employment taxes are lower and if they hire a French citizen it's almost impossible to fire them. 10 years ago I would have jumped at the opportunity. I love that city.

421 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:53:06pm

re: #404 Killian Bundy

Good thinking.

/please go stand by the stairs

I'm fascinated by that video. I can't decide if it's brilliant or just kitsch.

422 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:53:10pm

re: #401 Pabloanno

We have another champing at the bit for a touch from Stinky.

423 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:53:20pm

re: #413 MandyManners

Oh, shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down. It I want your fucking opinion, I'll give it to your gutless self.

NEXT?

I must have missed the history on this poster. Very mild comment at 401.

424 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:53:20pm

re: #403 skicougar

I believe everyone in the US gets a chance to hear the gospel at some point in their life; at that point; its your chioce to accept or reject it and we'll know or not know the consequences at death...

Reject the godless theory of evilution or burn in hell!

425 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:53:31pm

re: #399 Mich-again

HuH? I know what a theory is. How do you know what I know?

If you say evolution is just a theory and not a fact, then theory does not mean what you think it means. It is a FAQ/response to standard canards of the creationists.

426 rain of lead  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:53:43pm

re: #391 VioletTiger

Ooooo, must find somebody to sell me some Thin Mints.

I'm the cookie dad for my daughter's daisy scout troop.
I can hook you up-got cases in my garage (you gotta pay the shipping though :)

427 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:53:45pm

re: #401 Pabloanno

This is very interesting and fun!

Take your hands out of your pants, jerk.

428 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:53:47pm

re: #418 Walter L. Newton

No worries - I've been covering my eyes.

429 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:53:52pm

re: #336 Fried Spam

Um, you haven't been paying attention to the state of public education in the U.S., have you? While I believe that the number of good teachers far outweighs the number of bad teachers, there are far too many bad teachers that teach things other than what they should be teaching.

And to remedy that you would support a law that would insulate them from criticism for teaching their beliefs in school, so long as they were beliefs of which some members of a particular religion approve? Puh-LEEEZE!

430 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:54:17pm

re: #424 Charles

Reject the godless theory of evilution or burn in hell!

Gotta love threatening retreads of Pascal's wager.

431 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:54:28pm

re: #416 Walter L. Newton

I don't think it matters. The Island keeps course correcting. I think this was the BEST episode of the season. I love the reaction of Lapidas, the pilot... "We're not going to Guam, are we?" There were so many clever (or stone cold) lines in this episode.

Yup, that was a great line. I've enjoyed all of the episodes so far this season...much more than last season (even though all of them are entertaining anyway). I think that the LOST people hit a gold mine with time travel...makes for great theories.

What do you think Ben meant when he said to Jack "my mother taught me?" His mom died during childbirth...is this simply a joke on his part...or should we take the hint?

432 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:54:36pm

re: #403 skicougar

I'm an Evangelical Christian.
I agree with Charles.
I see no contradictions between scriptural and science.

The deceitful attempt to get creationism into science is in no way a Biblically approved way of spreading the Gospel.

Google the Wedge Document & Strategy.

Read it.

Explain how the methods and tactics are Biblically supported.

Think about the unintended consequence of giving equal time in the class room to one religions interpretation of the physical world. Where does it stop?

433 OldLineTexan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:54:37pm
434 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:54:56pm

re: #394 Kosh's Shadow

She had great bosons!

Yeah but if she was so damn smart why didn't she consider the possibility that one of those Euro skilled tradesmen would slack off on the job and not tighten every bolt to spec which is why that much ballyhooed accelerator has been down for repairs ever since it f*ed up during the trial runs.

Science throttled by incompetence. Thats the theme of that project so far.

435 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:54:57pm

re: #424 Charles

Reject the godless theory of evilution or burn in hell!

The first step to homosexuality and abortion is the teaching of evolution!

//

436 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:54:59pm

re: #420 Killgore Trout

Last time I was in Paris I had two unsolicited job offers (one with a Paris studio apartment included). They didn't know anything about me or my skill level but they are dying to hire foreigners; the employment taxes are lower and if they hire a French citizen it's almost impossible to fire them. 10 years ago I would have jumped at the opportunity. I love that city.

Not now. It's hard as hell for you to become an ex-pat in France. I've tried.

437 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:55:14pm

re: #403 skicougar

Oooh, a Trifecta! Delicious!

438 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:55:21pm

re: #423 Racer X

I must have missed the history on this poster. Very mild comment at 401.

It might be a good thing to check out his Comment History.

439 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:55:25pm

re: #423 Racer X

I must have missed the history on this poster. Very mild comment at 401.

I kind of thought so too...

440 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:55:54pm

re: #417 Pabloanno

He promised Whidmore that he was going to kill his daughter. The side effect is Desmond on the boat returning to the island like the first time. It's a good theory.

Stop clipping my comments, idiot. I've covered this already. LOST Wars. (hehe)

441 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:56:10pm

re: #415 Salamantis


But who wants to pass a law insulating them from that criticism?

Oh not me thats for sure.

442 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:56:20pm

re: #380 Dark_Falcon

I did read the article. But I don't see where the official story is contradicted.

Sadly, at the moment I do not have the motivation or gumption to dig out some links from 2006 on this. But I heard it pretty definitively.

443 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:56:21pm

re: #390 FurryOldGuyJeans

So all this blather about ID, and the Discovery Institute and their Wedge Document is just a sham and conspiracy?

/no, they're real, they haven't won a single court case that matters yet, and can only dream of establishing a Christian Theocracy in this country

444 bluejudad  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:56:51pm

re: #374 Walter L. Newton

Wow. Impressive. I didn't know we had such obvious losers like yourself sir, on our side. You'd fit in better at Huffington.

445 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:56:55pm

re: #370 bluejudad


#96 Killgore Trout

Who's got the over/under on the first martyr cookie? It's a Thursday night, I'll guess it happens after #350.

Damn, that's pretty good.

446 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:56:55pm

re: #412 LudwigVanQuixote

Teilhard de Chardan (sp?) noted that while the tendency in the universe is to chaos, thermodynamically, over time; the universe is tending to greater order and complexity in terms of life and knowledge, over time.

Anyway there are definitely 2 tendencies here, one down and one up.

LGF definitely contributes to the up tendency.

And with that, Good Night All.

447 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:57:01pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Charles... your approach to this topic resembles Al Gore's to Global Warming.

That's your entire argument?

BiJ.

448 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:57:03pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Charles... your approach to this topic resembles Al Gore's to Global Warming.

Hurling lying insults is not the way to convince anyone of anything except that you're an insulting liar.

449 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:57:07pm

re: #403 skicougar

...Brand me a Jesus freak if you must.

I don't want to involve Jesus in this. You're a freak, all by yourself.

450 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:57:29pm

Remember, it's not my place to judge anyone.

But if you believe in evilution you will BURN IN HELL!

That's not me judging you. It's God Himself. He told me so.

And I'll pray for you. As you burn in eternal torment.

451 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:57:31pm

re: #438 MandyManners

It might be a good thing to check out his Comment History.

I'll take your word for it.

I just find it odd when a comment gets downdinged simply because of the poster's history.

452 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:57:39pm

re: #403 skicougar

Guys,

i was just making the point that in classes of all different subjects today, kids are taught plenty of things their parents may not agree with; something that goes by global warming seems to come to mind for some reason.
the classroom, like everything else in life; does have views presented every day that have agendas; i'm quite okay with a bigger foot in the door for judeo-christian teachings.
you guys trying to keep this out will miss the 10 other things trying just as hard to get into school that may have worse consequences for your kids.

And, for the record; i'm a shake the sandals disciple. I believe everyone in the US gets a chance to hear the gospel at some point in their life; at that point; its your chioce to accept or reject it and we'll know or not know the consequences at death, so I don't push religion on anyone; I just believe judeo-christian principles have proven to be better for society when taught to children adn adults. Hard to argue that communism and secularism have had increased family disruption the greater God is removed.

Brand me a Jesus freak if you must.

No one is wanting to brand you but we will tell you this:
TEACH YOUR RELIGION AT HOME, NOT IN GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS!
(please forgive me for caps, everyone, I got frustrated)

453 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:57:46pm

re: #410 Fried Spam

I think you are confusing me with someone else. What 'cure' are you thinking I have proposed? I'm not in favor of teaching creationism in science class. But, I don't want atheism taught as science, either.

You want to cure atheism in the school curriculum with massive and on-going doses of your approved version of religion. No, I am not confusing you with someone else.

454 srb1976  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:57:50pm

evening folks, had a great day, but checked in late and missed all the fun..... are we still on topic?

455 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:58:17pm

Pterosaur Wings With a Rib Cage to Match

Modern birds sustain their flight with an efficient ventilation system that keeps air flowing to their muscles. But no one knew how pterosaurs, the first flying vertebrates, powered their wings. A new study in PLoS One concludes that ancient pterosaurs, flying reptiles that lived 220 million to 65 million years ago, did much the same, with a mobile rib cage and a system of air sacs distributed throughout the bones to help move air around.

Pterosaurs dominated the sky in the Mesozoic era. The reptiles ranged from sparrow-sized peewees to giants with the wingspan of a small airplane. Although pterosaurs and birds share very distant reptilian ancestors, pterosaurs were not birds. As a result of studying the reptiles' wing anatomy, scientists have long been confident that they flew by actively flapping--those wings weren't meant for gliding. But how did pterosaurs get enough energy to power those muscles and stay in the air? "When we think of reptiles, we think of animals that literally creep along the ground and are relatively sluggish," says paleontologist David Unwin of the University of Leicester in the United Kingdom. "If you take a crocodile or lizard and put wings on them, they would very quickly run out of energy to flap," because flapping takes enormous effort.

Flying lizards!

456 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:58:19pm

re: #444 bluejudad

Wow. Impressive. I didn't know we had such obvious losers like yourself sir, on our side. You'd fit in better at Huffington.

Er, you're not that dense are you? I'm not on your side, geeeesssshhh.

457 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:58:38pm

re: #416 Walter L. Newton

Linus got a belly laugh out of me....
Jack: How can you read? (nervously)
Linus: My mother taught me.

458 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:59:01pm

re: #346 Dark_Falcon

Are you kidding?

/Really asking.

No, f'real.

"Veggie Veggie Veggie starts with V!"

459 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:59:11pm

re: #429 Salamantis

And to remedy that you would support a law that would insulate them from criticism for teaching their beliefs in school, so long as they were beliefs of which some members of a particular religion approve? Puh-LEEEZE!

And exactly where do you see me saying that? I think that you are confusing me with someone else. I do not support teaching creationism in science, nor do I support teaching atheism in science.

The problem, though, is under our current system, there are no consequences for teaching atheism in science. This is at least in part why these 'academic freedom' proposals keep coming up.

As I asked early on, "How do we go about preventing that, while not going so far as these academic freedom initiatives?"

460 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:59:21pm

re: #314 Killgore Trout

Don't ask me, I'm godless and I'm busy drowning puppies in a bucket.

Hate to break this to you KT, Puppy day is next Thursday.

461 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:59:22pm

re: #339 jcm

Atheism is still a belief perspective system, a choice of view an opinion about metaphysics. They can say evolution disproves is neutral about God, but that statement is no more at least as valid than as if someone says the universe proves God.

Just playing with semantics here to see how relatively little changes can change meanings.

462 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:59:46pm

re: #436 Walter L. Newton

I was there are 4 years ago and they were desperate to hire ex-pats. I guess Sarkozy changed all that.

463 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:59:48pm

re: #401 Pabloanno

This is very interesting and fun!

re: #423 Racer X

I must have missed the history on this poster. Very mild comment at 401.

He was being a major jerk this morning. He took both Mandy and Walter deliberately out of context and would not apologize.

464 Pabloanno  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:59:48pm

re: #440 Walter L. Newton

I was just saying that it's a good theory you had. And adding the part about Ben promising Whidmore that he was going to kill his daughter.

I thought it was a good idea you had, that's all.

465 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:59:49pm

re: #409 FurryOldGuyJeans

Ok, who had 270?

I had #260. Did I win again?

Is Killgore drunk on Yellowtail, yet?

466 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:59:52pm

"My purpose is total integration of Biblical law into our lives."
-- Howard Ahmanson
Contributor to the Discovery Institute, contributor and
former board member of R J. Rushdoony's Chalcedon Foundation

[Link: books.google.com...]

467 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 8:59:58pm

re: #455 NJDhockeyfan

Pterosaur Wings With a Rib Cage to Match

Flying lizards!

Yeah, but are there hard points to hang ordinance?
/

468 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:00:11pm

re: #461 Naso Tang

Couldn't stay away too long, eh? Same with me. I should really be lying in bed now =)

469 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:00:17pm

re: #435 Gus 802

The first step to homosexuality and abortion is the teaching of evolution!

//

It makes women into feminist pagan witches and all... when the menfolk don't become nazis...
/////

470 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:00:19pm

Mark 16:15: And he said unto them Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

471 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:00:27pm

re: #460 CyanSnowHawk

Hate to break this to you KT, Puppy day is next Thursday.

These puppies aren't going to drown themselves.

472 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:00:31pm

re: #443 Killian Bundy

By your logic we should totally ignore any threat of Jihadis since they have done anything in the US lately. No thanks, I don't like sticking my head in the sand to potential dangers to life, limb, or property. National Defense and Security mean a lot to me.

473 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:01:01pm

re: #426 rain of lead

I'm the cookie dad for my daughter's daisy scout troop.
I can hook you up-got cases in my garage (you gotta pay the shipping though :)


I may take you up on that......

474 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:01:11pm

re: #444 bluejudad

FOAD

475 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:01:16pm

re: #472 FurryOldGuyJeans

By your logic we should totally ignore any threat of Jihadis since they have NOT done anything in the US lately. No thanks, I don't like sticking my head in the sand to potential dangers to life, limb, or property. National Defense and Security mean a lot to me.

*PIMF* sigh.

476 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:01:32pm

re: #465 Noam Sayin'

Mild buzz, I'm going to try to make it till midnight because I have salmon in the smoker and it's taking longer than I thought.

477 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:01:48pm

Ronald Reagan was successful because he convinced many Democrats that he would represent their views. And he did.

Because of his extreme creationist views, Bobby Jindal is going to have a really hard time of getting Democrats to join his team.

Do I get an amen?

478 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:01:49pm

re: #457 Killgore Trout

Linus got a belly laugh out of me....
Jack: How can you read? (nervously)
Linus: My mother taught me.

And think about this. What if Ben is trying to change the past, by fiddling with the future. What if he is trying to prevent his mother from dying in childbirth. What if he did change his mothers death, in some time line or another. There are wheels with in wheels.

My favorite (then again, I'm crass)

JACK: ...and the other people on this plane--what's gonna happen to them?
BEN: Who cares?

479 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:01:58pm

re: #459 Fried Spam

The problem, though, is under our current system, there are no consequences for teaching atheism in science.

That's because nobody is teaching atheism in science classes.

This is at least in part why these 'academic freedom' proposals keep coming up.

No, it isn't. They keep coming up because religious extremists are trying to sneak creationism into science classes. It has nothing to do with imaginary "teaching of atheism."

480 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:02:02pm

re: #461 Naso Tang

Just playing with semantics here to see how relatively little changes can change meanings.

My statement evolves, even though it was created!
;-)

481 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:02:03pm

re: #467 jcm

Yeah, but are there hard points to hang ordinance ordnance?
/

/pet peeve

482 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:02:03pm

re: #465 Noam Sayin'

I had #260. Did I win again?

Is Killgore drunk on Yellowtail, yet?

Ummm, I mistyped 370. [Annoyed Grunt]

483 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:02:12pm

re: #477 Racer X

Ronald Reagan was successful because he convinced many Democrats that he would represent their views. And he did.

Because of his extreme creationist views, Bobby Jindal is going to have a really hard time of getting Democrats to join his team.

Do I get an amen?

Amen.

484 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:03:09pm

re: #453 FurryOldGuyJeans

You want to cure atheism in the school curriculum with massive and on-going doses of your approved version of religion. No, I am not confusing you with someone else.

Did you even read what I've said in this thread?

Sheesh.

485 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:03:23pm

re: #403 skicougar

Guys,

i was just making the point that in classes of all different subjects today, kids are taught plenty of things their parents may not agree with; something that goes by global warming seems to come to mind for some reason.
the classroom, like everything else in life; does have views presented every day that have agendas; i'm quite okay with a bigger foot in the door for judeo-christian teachings.
you guys trying to keep this out will miss the 10 other things trying just as hard to get into school that may have worse consequences for your kids.

Not if we keep an eye out. And why should that be an excuse for allowing 11 bad thing in, anyway?

And, for the record; i'm a shake the sandals disciple. I believe everyone in the US gets a chance to hear the gospel at some point in their life; at that point; its your chioce to accept or reject it and we'll know or not know the consequences at death, so I don't push religion on anyone; I just believe judeo-christian principles have proven to be better for society when taught to children adn adults. Hard to argue that communism and secularism have had increased family disruption the greater God is removed.

Brand me a Jesus freak if you must.

Teach your religion to your own kids and let other kids' parents decide about theirs.

486 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:03:41pm

re: #470 MandyManners

Mark 16:15: And he said unto them Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

I hope someone else draws the Grizzly bears.

487 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:03:59pm

What's the over/under on Bluejudad?

488 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:04:04pm

re: #481 Wishing

/pet peeve

Noted! Thanks!

489 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:04:05pm

re: #479 Charles

If my experience in a religious school for 12 years are any indication, the teaching of Catholicism leads to atheism.

490 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:04:10pm

Not meaning to throw gas on the fire but:

Theory: A theory is more like a scientific law than a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.

In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.

In fact, some laws, such as the law of gravity, can also be theories when taken more generally. The law of gravity is expressed as a single mathematical expression and is presumed to be true all over the universe and all through time. Without such an assumption, we can do no science based on gravity's effects. But from the law, we derived Einstein's General Theory of Relativity in which gravity plays a crucial role. The basic law is intact, but the theory expands it to include various and complex situations involving space and time.

The biggest difference between a law and a theory is that a theory is much more complex and dynamic. A law describes a single action, whereas a theory explains an entire group of related phenomena.

An analogy can be made using a slingshot and an automobile.

A scientific law is like a slingshot. A slingshot has but one moving part--the rubber band. If you put a rock in it and draw it back, the rock will fly out at a predictable speed, depending upon the distance the band is drawn back.

An automobile has many moving parts, all working in unison to perform the chore of transporting someone from one point to another point. An automobile is a complex piece of machinery. Sometimes, improvements are made to one or more component parts. A new set of spark plugs that are composed of a better alloy that can withstand heat better, for example, might replace the existing set. But the function of the automobile as a whole remains unchanged.

A theory is like the automobile. Components of it can be changed or improved upon, without changing the overall truth of the theory as a whole.

Some scientific theories include the theory of evolution, the theory of relativity, the atomic theory, and the quantum theory. All of these theories are well documented and proved beyond reasonable doubt. Yet scientists continue to tinker with the component hypotheses of each theory in an attempt to make them more elegant and concise, or to make them more all-encompassing. Theories can be tweaked, but they are seldom, if ever, entirely replaced.

A theory is developed only through the scientific method, meaning it is the final result of a series of rigorous processes. Note that a theory never becomes a law unless it was very narrow to begin with. Scientific laws must exist prior to the start of using the scientific method because, as stated earlier, laws are the foundation for all science. Here is an oversimplified example of the development of a scientific theory:

491 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:04:29pm

re: #472 FurryOldGuyJeans

By your logic we should totally ignore any threat of Jihadis since they have done anything in the US lately. No thanks, I don't like sticking my head in the sand to potential dangers to life, limb, or property. National Defense and Security mean a lot to me.

I'm sorry, are you saying that fundamentalist Christians are a threat to national security?

/wow

492 skicougar  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:04:29pm

re: #424 Charles

Reject the godless theory of evilution or burn in hell!

Charles, i didn't say that. you read that into it. i've seen enough people die to know it's a leap of faith to believe. i said the question will be answered at death. i never said i would be proved correct.

i wish i could have bet mrs skicougar that i'd get that label before posting. this is the be all and end all of boards IMO; stop being predictable.

493 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:05:05pm

re: #484 Fried Spam


You don't understand atheism is not being taught in schools, science is and should be.

494 Gretchen  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:05:32pm

OT:

Went to my kid's high school today for a meeting. The classroom we were in had a row of pictures Lincoln, Churchill, FDR, Che. Puke. Maybe they were in order from best to worst? I don't think so...

Unfortunately, the "science" teachers spend so much time on the religion of global warming that they have little time for anything else anyway.

We have lost the schools.

495 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:05:32pm

re: #479 Charles

Its getting clearer.

They believe Evolution = Atheism

This is why they get so upset.

497 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:06:29pm

re: #492 skicougar

Charles, i didn't say that. you read that into it. i've seen enough people die to know it's a leap of faith to believe. i said the question will be answered at death. i never said i would be proved correct.

Correction: reject the godless theory of evilution or you MIGHT burn in hell!

498 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:06:30pm

re: #489 Basho

For whatever it's worth, the ones I know with a strong religious belief seem to have fine upstanding examples at home. Seems to me religion is best left to the family. But those are just my two-cents.

499 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:06:32pm

re: #450 Charles

But if you believe in evilution you will BURN IN HELL!

That's not me judging you. It's God Himself.

There's actually a secret final Chapter to Dante's Inferno, suppressed for hundreds of years by an atheist cabal, in which Dante visits the Tenth Circle of Hell. Luckily, I have obtained the lost manuscript, and begun to translate it:

"And thence we bade Judas and Beelzebub farewell proceeded through the shades unto the Tenth Circle, whereupon my sight was affronted with the greatest horror of all: Charles the Darwin at the bottom of The Pit, being eternally eaten alive by all the animals which God hath created. And surrounding him on all sides were his accursed followers, the soulless Darwinists, screaming in agony as the Lord's creatures hungrily devoured their irreducibly complex eyes...."

500 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:06:36pm

re: #491 Killian Bundy

I'm sorry, are you saying that fundamentalist Christians are a threat to national security?

/wow

I am saying the POTENTIAL is real. I don't want it to even remotely be close to being a POSSIBILITY.

501 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:06:37pm

Good night, y'all.

502 winston06  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:06:41pm

OT

Dennis Miller on Jay Leno tonight... He's good!

503 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:06:49pm

re: #492 skicougar

Charles, i didn't say that. you read that into it. i've seen enough people die to know it's a leap of faith to believe. i said the question will be answered at death. i never said i would be proved correct.

i wish i could have bet mrs skicougar that i'd get that label before posting. this is the be all and end all of boards IMO; stop being predictable.

Stop telling Charles what to do!

504 winston06  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:06:54pm

re: #501 Dar ul Harb

good night

505 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:06:55pm

re: #492 skicougar

You've been here 3 weeks.
Many have gone before and ended up saying what Charles parroted.

506 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:06:58pm

re: #410 Fried Spam

I think you are confusing me with someone else. What 'cure' are you thinking I have proposed? I'm not in favor of teaching creationism in science class. But, I don't want atheism taught as science, either.

Just please point me to the well-funded lobby whispering in preachers' ears to push their parishioners to push elected officials to get atheism taught in public high school science class, and maybe I'll concede you have a point. Until then, I don't see the equivalence.

507 rain of lead  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:07:02pm

re: #405 LudwigVanQuixote

this is much better, points made in clean,clear language.
BUT(damnit here he goes again, sumbitch is gonna tell me it's still too long....$%^$# *&&*%^@@) this is a troll asteroid, to be a true
troll HAMMER you should keep pairing this down until you can make
the most important of the many great points in one post.
if you feel you can't touch one more word then that is cool, I think
you have done an amazing job.

keep posting dude, as I said when you first brought this idea to the table
"I likes yo stuff"

508 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:07:14pm

Another part of the FAQ.

Darwinism lead to Nazism

This is utter garbage. The notion that one group of people is superior to another - and thus has the right to dehumanize, abuse and kill them is as old as the first time a slave felt the lash. There are over 4,000 years of recorded history before the coming of Darwin to show this dark tendency in our species. There has always been rape, pillage, slavery, murder and carnage justified by racism and nationalism. No one was quoting Darwin in Nanking, Rwanda, or Darfur. No one quoted Darwin to the Native Americans.

The Jews were not murdered by Darwin. The Jews were not murdered by the thousands of doctors who save lives with the insights gained from Darwin. They did not die so that you can make a cheap and ill thought point to push your dogma.

509 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:07:28pm

re: #478 Walter L. Newton

JACK: ...and the other people on this plane--what's gonna happen to them?
BEN: Who cares?


I really liked that line too. Linus has been a little cuddly lately because they are working the ambiguity thing with him. There was also a funny moment beneath the church....

Jack (to Linus): Have you ever been here before?
Linus: No.
Jack (To Faraday's mom): Is he lying?
Faraday's mom: Probably.


I don't care if they use science or mysticism, I just want more of the little busty blonde chick with the goofy accent. I don't care how they give her more airtime.

510 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:07:45pm

re: #495 Racer X

Its getting clearer.

They believe Evolution = Atheism

This is why they get so upset.

Correct. And that atheism = ____________ .

511 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:08:23pm

re: #499 zombie

LOL! Brilliant.

512 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:08:49pm

re: #486 jcm

I hope someone else draws the Grizzly bears.

That is the KJV version
The ISV says: Then he said to them, "As you go into all the world, proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Most of the other versions are alike with the ISV.

513 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:08:56pm

re: #436 Walter L. Newton

Not now. It's hard as hell for you to become an ex-pat in France. I've tried.

Interesting. Did you want to for a lark or to be one of those writers of old? I was last there about 5 years ago and have relatives there (I'm not of French origin, but do speak the language), but there were no-go areas, and a daughter of mine was almost caught up in one of those Islamic car burn parties near the Eiffel Tower, and accosted by the same thugs in the Metro.

She will never go back.

Sad.

514 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:08:59pm

re: #476 Killgore Trout

You trying that little tin can item you posted about the other night?

515 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:09:19pm

re: #370 bluejudad

Charles... your approach to this topic resembles Al Gore's to Global Warming.

Except of course, Charles is right and Al Gore is not.

516 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:09:20pm

re: #507 rain of lead

Thanks. The problem is that there are so many things that they get wrong and so many things that they keep confabulating that it is impossible to even mention them all in one post let alone address them.

517 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:09:51pm

re: #491 Killian Bundy

I'm sorry, are you saying that fundamentalist Christians are a threat to national security?

/wow

Exploding casseroles. Watch out for 'em.

518 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:09:59pm

re: #425 LudwigVanQuixote

If you say evolution is just a theory and not a fact, then theory does not mean what you think it means.

We have a lot of verifiable facts about how evolution has worked in the past and will work in the future. Other details about how evolution works remain theoretical at this point so it is premature to refer to them as facts. "Do you believe in evolution?" should not a yes/no question. I can wholeheartedly believe in the concept of the evolution of species but at the same time have disagreements with some about the specific details of how it all happened. Of course.

519 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:10:05pm

Another part of the FAQ.
Corrected, it's getting late...

Darwinism led to Nazism

This is utter garbage. The notion that one group of people is superior to another - and thus has the right to dehumanize, abuse and kill them is as old as the first time a slave felt the lash. There are over 4,000 years of recorded history before the coming of Darwin to show this dark tendency in our species. There has always been rape, pillage, slavery, murder and carnage justified by racism and nationalism. No one was quoting Darwin in Nanking, Rwanda, or Darfur. No one quoted Darwin to the Native Americans.

The Jews were not murdered by Darwin. The Jews were not murdered by the thousands of doctors who save lives with the insights gained from Darwin. They did not die so that you can make a cheap and ill thought point to push your dogma.

520 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:10:08pm

re: #509 Killgore Trout

I don't care if they use science or mysticism, I just want more of the little busty blonde chick with the goofy accent. I don't care how they give her more airtime.

Sorry. I saw the casting sheets for this season. If I remember correctly, that part was slated for one episode only.

Like I said, that's Daniel Faraday's mother, Ellie (Eloise). Wanna bet Widmore and Eloise were married at one time, before or after they left the Island?

521 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:10:09pm

re: #434 Mich-again

Yeah but if she was so damn smart why didn't she consider the possibility that one of those Euro skilled tradesmen would slack off on the job and not tighten every bolt to spec which is why that much ballyhooed accelerator has been down for repairs ever since it f*ed up during the trial runs.

Science throttled by incompetence. Thats the theme of that project so far.

Must have been a Euro union worker and it got to 5:00. Have to leave no matter where you are in the job.

522 Killer Tomato  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:10:49pm

re: #496 MandyManners

Recently I've wondered if we'd have been better off if they'd run out of ink after they wrote "Congress shall make no law..."

(ok, not seriously)

523 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:11:29pm

re: #518 Mich-again

We have a lot of verifiable facts about how evolution has worked in the past and will work in the future. Other details about how evolution works remain theoretical at this point so it is premature to refer to them as facts. "Do you believe in evolution?" should not a yes/no question. I can wholeheartedly believe in the concept of the evolution of species but at the same time have disagreements with some about the specific details of how it all happened. Of course.

Actually you should not believe any scientific theory. Science is not about belief or faith. You should either be swayed by the logic and the evidence or not.

524 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:11:29pm

re: #478 Walter L. Newton


My favorite (then again, I'm crass)

JACK: ...and the other people on this plane--what's gonna happen to them?
BEN: Who cares?

Yeah, that was discussed here too.

Did you catch the part that Ben was reading Ulysses, and that his mother who taught him to read died in childbirth?

Enough to drive a man crazier than the trolls do.

525 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:11:30pm

re: #470 MandyManners

How better to preach than to lead by example?

526 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:11:40pm

re: #387 OldLineTexan

/facepalm

It's "LOOK AT THE BALLS ON THAT MONKEY!"

/

The blue ones?

527 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:11:40pm

This should be interesting...

Liberty faculty take part in creationism events

Throughout the month of February, Liberty University continues to participate in events promoting the biblical view of creationism to counteract the 200th anniversary celebration of Charles Darwin’s birthday (Feb. 12).

Thomas Road Baptist Church’s Answers for Darwin Conference closed Tuesday night with a lecture by Dr. Marcus Ross, assistant director of LU’s Center for Creation Studies. Ross spoke on the evidence in fossils that support a creation view and in what areas the theory of evolution falls short. Dr. David DeWitt, director of LU’s Center for Creation Studies, spoke Monday night on how evolution is based on an interpretive framework and why a creation model of life makes sense.

Creationism events will continue as the Liberty University School of Law will be showing films on creation in the Supreme Courtroom. “Expelled” will be shown on Feb. 20; “Unlocking the Mysteries of Life” will be shown on Feb. 27. The films will begin at 7 p.m.

528 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:11:48pm

re: #509 Killgore Trout

I don't care if they use science or mysticism, I just want more of the little busty blonde chick with the goofy accent. I don't care how they give her more airtime.

[Link: lostpedia.wikia.com...]

[Link: images.google.com...]

She is 18.

529 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:11:49pm

re: #499 zombie

we bade Judas and Beelzebub farewell proceeded through the shades

=

we bade Judas and Beelzebub farewell, and proceeded through the shades

PIMF

530 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:11:57pm

re: #512 Steve

That is the KJV version
The ISV says: Then he said to them, "As you go into all the world, proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Most of the other versions are alike with the ISV.

Darby,
And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation.

531 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:12:00pm

re: #513 Naso Tang

Pathetic... Ugh, I don't want to put into words what my gut feels like.

532 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:12:08pm

My poetry for the evening, free verse:

Half-eaten Samoa on the kitchen table
Nibbled by my baby boy
I see it
I remember he was barfing last night
I leave it be

533 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:12:25pm

re: #490 Steve

Thanks Steve, excellent definitions!

534 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:12:27pm

re: #444 bluejudad

Wow. Impressive. I didn't know we had such obvious losers like yourself sir, on our side. You'd fit in better at Huffington.

I think you're utterly confused about what your side actually is. If you wanna unconstitutionally mandate sectarian religious indoctrination in public high school, your side ain't fucking conservative.

535 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:12:41pm

re: #492 skicougar

i wish i could have bet mrs skicougar that ...

Wait a minute.

You're a dude, and you go by the nick, "skicougar?"

536 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:12:47pm

There's an ad on right now with a scarecrow dancing around a power substation singing "If I Only Had A Brain". I think if he did, he might want to stay away from places that could set him on fire.

537 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:12:50pm

re: #499 zombie

There's actually a secret final Chapter to Dante's Inferno, suppressed for hundreds of years by an atheist cabal, in which Dante visits the Tenth Circle of Hell. Luckily, I have obtained the lost manuscript, and begun to translate it:

"And thence we bade Judas and Beelzebub farewell proceeded through the shades unto the Tenth Circle, whereupon my sight was affronted with the greatest horror of all: Charles the Darwin at the bottom of The Pit, being eternally eaten alive by all the animals which God hath created. And surrounding him on all sides were his accursed followers, the soulless Darwinists, screaming in agony as the Lord's creatures hungrily devoured their irreducibly complex eyes...."

WOW! I thought we Jews were down there! I feel better now!

538 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:12:56pm

re: #382 LudwigVanQuixote

Like very much.
What about oil and gas deposits? Took about 300 million years for those.

539 Haverwilde  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:12:58pm

re: #470 MandyManners

Mark 16:15: And he said unto them Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

That's King James for you. Another translation say 'creation,' and another says "mankind.'

But since we are told to spread the 'good news,' what better place to start than with Lizards and Trolls.

540 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:13:00pm

re: #497 Charles

Correction: reject the godless theory of evilution or you MIGHT burn in hell!

You can be a christian and believe in evolution.
Belief in either creation or evolution is not a requirement that that gets you in to heaven/hell

541 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:13:09pm

re: #527 NJDhockeyfan

This should be interesting...

Liberty faculty take part in creationism events

No surprise. Liberty University was founded by Jerry Falwell.

542 jaunte  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:13:39pm

re: #527 NJDhockeyfan

I wonder if any corporations will be there recruiting for new research scientists.

543 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:13:41pm

re: #522 Killer Tomato

Recently I've wondered if we'd have been better off if they'd run out of ink after they wrote "Congress shall make no law..."

(ok, not seriously)

Interesting POV.

544 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:14:22pm

re: #537 LudwigVanQuixote

WOW! I thought we Jews were down there! I feel better now!

No no no, the Jews are up in the Second Circle or something. Very comfy up there.

545 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:14:32pm

re: #517 Cognito

Exploding casseroles. Watch out for 'em.

They're called, "covered dishes."

546 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:14:50pm

re: #500 FurryOldGuyJeans

I am saying the POTENTIAL is real. I don't want it to even remotely be close to being a POSSIBILITY.

Look what's happened politically since 2006, culminating in Obama.

/of course be vigilant, but Fundamentalists seem to be doing the opposite of gaining ground

547 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:15:08pm

re: #489 Basho

If my experience in a religious school for 12 years are any indication, the teaching of Catholicism leads to atheism.

My 12 years led to the opposite.

548 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:15:15pm

re: #525 Mich-again

How better to preach than to lead by example?

Does that meet the Scriptural requirements for you?

549 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:15:26pm

re: #403 skicougar

Brand me a Jesus freak if you must.

No need, but you have branded yourself as one who needs enlightenment on the subject of creationism in the public schools. Christ is about knowing and seeking the truth on all levels. On the level of biological science, that truth is evolution, not some made up pseudo-religious/scientific bullshit.

550 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:15:52pm

re: #524 Naso Tang

Yeah, that was discussed here too.

Did you catch the part that Ben was reading Ulysses, and that his mother who taught him to read died in childbirth?

Enough to drive a man crazier than the trolls do.

This show takes the advice of Umberto Eco, his advice about using intertexual relationship between fiction, to the extremes (which is marvelous).

The show itself is about "connections" and you can find hundreds of them, everything between obvious one like direct references to scripture to obscure references to everyone from Stephan King to C.S Lewis (the new Dharma station, the LAMP POST, Mrs. Hawkings HQ).

551 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:16:07pm

re: #538 VioletTiger

Like very much.
What about oil and gas deposits? Took about 300 million years for those.

Good point!

552 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:16:26pm

re: #544 zombie

No no no, the Jews are up in the Second Circle or something. Very comfy up there.

Do we get cable?

553 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:16:33pm

re: #459 Fried Spam

And exactly where do you see me saying that? I think that you are confusing me with someone else. I do not support teaching creationism in science, nor do I support teaching atheism in science.

The problem, though, is under our current system, there are no consequences for teaching atheism in science. This is at least in part why these 'academic freedom' proposals keep coming up.

As I asked early on, "How do we go about preventing that, while not going so far as these academic freedom initiatives?"

Oh give us a break. It's just number 3 from the playbook (again). Teaching evolution says nothing about how life began, which is exactly why millions of conservative Christians, across the globe, including the Pope, are happy to teach it to children; because it is NOT atheist.

Your dishonest efforts are completely transparent. Supporting a bill created with the express purpose of allowing teachers to teach non-scientific opinions (or faiths) in order to combat... teachers telling their opinions to students is just a complete joke of an attempt.

BiJ.

554 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:16:44pm
555 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:16:51pm

re: #459 Fried Spam

And exactly where do you see me saying that? I think that you are confusing me with someone else. I do not support teaching creationism in science, nor do I support teaching atheism in science.

The problem, though, is under our current system, there are no consequences for teaching atheism in science. This is at least in part why these 'academic freedom' proposals keep coming up.

As I asked early on, "How do we go about preventing that, while not going so far as these academic freedom initiatives?"

First, you can begin by being fucking honest and admitting that most of the complaints you hear about atheism being taught in public schools are really complaints about evolution being taught there after the local fundie preacher brainwashed the kids and/or their parents that evolution was godless fucking atheism.

556 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:16:52pm

re: #540 Steve

Belief in either creation or evolution is not a requirement that that gets you in to heaven/hell

IMO its not what you think, its what you do.

557 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:17:15pm

re: #534 Salamantis

I think you're utterly confused about what your side actually is. If you wanna unconstitutionally mandate sectarian religious indoctrination in public high school, your side ain't fucking conservative.

Actually he is fucking conservatism.

558 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:17:18pm

I sometimes wonder...what was the conversation like between Mary and Joseph when she told him that she was pregnant with Jesus?

559 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:17:22pm

re: #550 Walter L. Newton

I almost bought Foucault's Pendulum today, and got tied up with something else. Honestly I don't know whether I've got the mental stamina to chew my way through it at the moment, but I've heard great things about it.

560 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:17:31pm

OK, I'm back.

561 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:17:32pm

re: #539 Haverwilde

That's King James for you. Another translation say 'creation,' and another says "mankind.'

But since we are told to spread the 'good news,' what better place to start than with Lizards and Trolls.

Interlinear. It's a PDF scroll down to v:16.
Direct translation.
WELL-MESSAGE to-EVERY THE CREATION

562 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:18:03pm

re: #479 Charles

That's because nobody is teaching atheism in science classes.

Charles, you typically do an excellent job of backing up your statements. Can you help me out here and point out where you are getting your information on this one? Saying "nobody" is doing something is a pretty strong statement.

563 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:18:20pm

re: #546 Killian Bundy

Look what's happened politically since 2006, culminating in Obama.

/of course be vigilant, but Fundamentalists seem to be doing the opposite of gaining ground

Yet we keep having the Creationist science crap repeatedly being voted on by states and school districts. Vigilance is indeed called for.

564 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:19:05pm

re: #514 Noam Sayin'

You trying that little tin can item you posted about the other night?

Sort of. The tin can won't fit through the little door of my Big Green Egg So I just took some old trimmings off my pear tree (about 2 inch thick disks), put them in the bottom and stick to soldering iron in there. It works pretty damn well.

565 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:19:06pm

re: #556 Mich-again

IMO its not what you think, its what you do.

No that is technically wrong. But that also depends on where you start. IMO

566 Pabloanno  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:19:50pm

re: #563 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet we keep having the Creationist science crap repeatedly being voted on by states and school districts. Vigilance is indeed called for.

Good Job!

567 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:19:53pm

re: #555 Salamantis

First, you can begin by being fucking honest and admitting that most of the complaints you hear about atheism being taught in public schools are really complaints about evolution being taught there after the local fundie preacher brainwashed the kids and/or their parents that evolution was godless fucking atheism.

Just someone else following the Wedge Strategy tactic of trying to divert every discussion over the presence vs. the absence of empirical evidence into a diatribe against bad Old Atheism in defence of Good Old God.

568 Basho  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:20:14pm

re: #547 Mich-again

My 12 years led to the opposite.

My years at University, with no religious instruction, were the times when I really learned what religion and faith were all about, and I developed a respect for it, and an appreciation for my Catholic roots.

569 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:20:21pm

re: #562 Fried Spam

Charles, you typically do an excellent job of backing up your statements. Can you help me out here and point out where you are getting your information on this one? Saying "nobody" is doing something is a pretty strong statement.

You made the original assertion of atheism being taught in schools, it is up to you to show your proof.

570 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:20:21pm

re: #562 Fried Spam

Charles, you typically do an excellent job of backing up your statements. Can you help me out here and point out where you are getting your information on this one? Saying "nobody" is doing something is a pretty strong statement.

By "nobody" Charles means that no such cases have come to his attention, and he pays attention to many, many sources. If he says that a thing is not happening, you may rely upon it.

571 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:20:27pm

re: #562 Fried Spam

Charles, you typically do an excellent job of backing up your statements. Can you help me out here and point out where you are getting your information on this one? Saying "nobody" is doing something is a pretty strong statement.

I'll take this one Charles.

Dude. Can you remember in any science class you had, at whatever level, where the instructor, teacher or professor said, "and that's why there is no God."?

572 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:20:40pm

re: #528 Walter L. Newton

Ironically she is approached during an investigation when Langston and Nick are called to investigate a murder at a fast food restaurant and comes across "Silver" who is practicing Yoga on a mat and greets the team with “Namaste”.

Namaste is a reverential Hindi salutation frequently accompanied by a pressing together of the palms at the chest and a slight bow. It is commonly used in yogic practice. Translations range from the more literal "I humble myself to you" to the more poetic "May the good in me honor the good in you" and "My spirit bows to your spirit." Conceptually, speaking "namaste" pays homage to the inner light in all living things.


She's my kinda gal.

573 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:20:42pm

re: #562 Fried Spam

Charles, you typically do an excellent job of backing up your statements. Can you help me out here and point out where you are getting your information on this one? Saying "nobody" is doing something is a pretty strong statement.

Play #6, again and again.

Evolution does NOT = atheism. Ask the Pope!

BiJ.

574 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:20:59pm

re: #562 Fried Spam

Charles, you typically do an excellent job of backing up your statements. Can you help me out here and point out where you are getting your information on this one? Saying "nobody" is doing something is a pretty strong statement.

It's safe to assume that teachers will use common sense. Common sense is typically what you find with the majority of people. Common sense also should lead a teacher undertaking the teaching of evolution not to take part in the teaching of atheism.

Also, evolution is not about creation. There is the big bang theory and the like which is unrelated. But evolution has nothing to do with, as an example, the first mammal.

575 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:21:04pm

re: #559 Cognito

I almost bought Foucault's Pendulum today, and got tied up with something else. Honestly I don't know whether I've got the mental stamina to chew my way through it at the moment, but I've heard great things about it.

DOn't expect it to "move" like a English contemporary novel. It's very European (well, Eco, Milan, Italian). It's more like having a good friend that you like to listen to, for weeks on end, and then suddenly, all hell breaks loose.

And then, you see why your friend was talking about so many things. And may of the chapters can stand on their own, at least in certain point that are being made.

But, if you think you can just zip through it, like Cussler, forget it.

576 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:21:11pm

re: #565 Steve

The message of the gospels is that words are empty, but actions are not.

577 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:21:36pm

Wait, now it's all creation? Trees, too?

Seriously, I do believe in Christ and I do share my beliefs.

578 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:21:39pm

re: #544 zombie

No no no, the Jews are up in the Second Circle or something. Very comfy up there.

I just checked: there is no named place in Hell specifically for the Jews, but the First Circle is for the Unbaptized and for "pagans" and those who did not accept Christ but did no other wrong, so I guess the Jews would go there.

First Circle -- very nice real estate up there. The Beverly Hills of Hell.

579 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:00pm

re: #554 Steve

Please don't dump 50 Bible quotes into a comment at LGF.

580 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:02pm

re: #566 Pabloanno

Good Job!

Coming from one such as you that is high praise indeed, not matter what the original intent was intended.

581 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:12pm

re: #403 skicougar

Guys,

i was just making the point that in classes of all different subjects today, kids are taught plenty of things their parents may not agree with; something that goes by global warming seems to come to mind for some reason.
the classroom, like everything else in life; does have views presented every day that have agendas; i'm quite okay with a bigger foot in the door for judeo-christian teachings.
you guys trying to keep this out will miss the 10 other things trying just as hard to get into school that may have worse consequences for your kids.

And, for the record; i'm a shake the sandals disciple. I believe everyone in the US gets a chance to hear the gospel at some point in their life; at that point; its your chioce to accept or reject it and we'll know or not know the consequences at death, so I don't push religion on anyone; I just believe judeo-christian principles have proven to be better for society when taught to children adn adults. Hard to argue that communism and secularism have had increased family disruption the greater God is removed.

Brand me a Jesus freak if you must.

How about just a freak.

582 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:13pm

re: #562 Fried Spam

Charles, you typically do an excellent job of backing up your statements. Can you help me out here and point out where you are getting your information on this one? Saying "nobody" is doing something is a pretty strong statement.

I have never, ever, heard of any public school teacher teaching a lesson on the benefits of not believing in a creator, or the benefits of rejecting religion. Have you?

583 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:17pm

re: #562 Fried Spam

Charles, you typically do an excellent job of backing up your statements. Can you help me out here and point out where you are getting your information on this one? Saying "nobody" is doing something is a pretty strong statement.

No - you made the claim. It's up to you back it up.

584 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:22pm

re: #573 Brit in Japan

Play #6, again and again.

Evolution does NOT = atheism. Ask the Pope!

BiJ.

Ooops, I meant play #3 - the screen - ha.

BiJ.

585 Haverwilde  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:22pm

re: #561 jcm

Interlinear. It's a PDF scroll down to v:16.
Direct translation.
WELL-MESSAGE to-EVERY THE CREATION


Thanks, I was to lazy to go to the original.
Just wanted to throw in my flippancy about lizards and trolls. (and thumbing my nose at King James, even though I love how poetic some of it is.)

586 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:27pm

re: #572 Killgore Trout

She's my kinda gal.

Killgore, any lady younger than me is my kind of girl.

587 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:32pm

re: #562 Fried Spam

Charles, you typically do an excellent job of backing up your statements. Can you help me out here and point out where you are getting your information on this one? Saying "nobody" is doing something is a pretty strong statement.

Well, there is that separation clause and the fact that the PTA would be all over said teacher in a heartbeat if that happened.

588 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:47pm

re: #554 Steve

e-sword, eh?

589 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:22:59pm

re: #471 Killgore Trout

These puppies aren't going to drown themselves.

You must obey Athe law!

590 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:23:23pm

re: #550 Walter L. Newton

do you know who the other Arab guy on the plane was? I recognize the actor from 3 Kings where he tortured Mark Walberg but I can't remember if we've seen him in Lost before. Stupid Jack made a big deal about seeing him (overacted of course). Do we know who he is?

591 Last Mohican  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:23:34pm

re: #495 Racer X

Its getting clearer.

They believe Evolution = Atheism

This is why they get so upset.

I think it's worse than that. I think they believe Evolution = Anti-religious zealot who is trying to outlaw belief in God.

Of course, some of them also believe that Stimulus Bill = Persecution of Christians.

And Feminism = Teaching women to practice witchcraft and destroy capitalism.

592 rain of lead  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:24:03pm

re: #516 LudwigVanQuixote
ok then take the three posts you made... tighten then up just a little
and you have "Ludwig's Toolbelt of Troll Hammers" when one hammer is just not enough to get the job done>

593 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:24:06pm

re: #579 Charles

Please don't dump 50 Bible quotes into a comment at LGF.

49 is plenty.
/

594 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:24:08pm

re: #562 Fried Spam

Charles, you typically do an excellent job of backing up your statements. Can you help me out here and point out where you are getting your information on this one? Saying "nobody" is doing something is a pretty strong statement.

If I may step in, you no doubt have an anecdote or two up your sleeve, just like there are plenty about teaching creationism. The point is that NOBODY is promoting the teaching of atheism in schools and presenting bills in the legislature to do so.

Of course if you keep promoting the current slew of bills that are discussed and if the Fairness Doctrine comes into force, it may very well be that you will have to allow books by Dawkins and Harris into the classroom.

595 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:24:32pm

re: #576 Mich-again

The message of the gospels is that words are empty, but actions are not.

Sorry, but works, by itself, does not cut it. But if your works come from faith that is something totally different.
Basically, just being good or having good intentions does nothing but make you a good person in peoples eyes not God's.

596 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:24:49pm

re: #579 Charles

Please don't dump 50 Bible quotes into a comment at LGF.

Sorry.

597 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:25:05pm

re: #563 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet we keep having the Creationist science crap repeatedly being voted on by states and school districts. Vigilance is indeed called for.

/yes, and until someone actually tries to break the Federal law, established through a long line of cases, Dover being the current mantelpiece, it's a waiting game, you can't legally punish intentions, only actions

598 Haverwilde  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:25:05pm

re: #573 Brit in Japan

Play #6, again and again.

Evolution does NOT = atheism. Ask the Pope!

BiJ.

The PAPA learned his lesson regarding arguing with science a few centuries ago. Some of the new versions of Christianity could learn from history as well.

599 horse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:25:14pm

The same intellectual dishonesty employed by those ginning up fake arguments against evolution in support of science, is the same intellectual dishonesty they see employed by the leftists who argue the economic "stimulus" bill just passed is about supporting the economy. Neither supports their supposed targets; they are both about grabbing power and imposing their will on others.

600 Racer X  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:25:19pm

re: #591 Last Mohican

And Feminism = Teaching women to practice witchcraft and destroy capitalism become lesbians.

fixed

601 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:25:27pm

re: #492 skicougar

Charles, i didn't say that. you read that into it. i've seen enough people die to know it's a leap of faith to believe. i said the question will be answered at death. i never said i would be proved correct.

i wish i could have bet mrs skicougar that i'd get that label before posting. this is the be all and end all of boards IMO; stop being predictable.

It is YOU who are predictable (not to mention tiresome); we've seen many people exactly like you here before. Is there some sort of factory turning ya'll out somewhere?

602 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:25:27pm

re: #575 Walter L. Newton

DOn't expect it to "move" like a English contemporary novel. It's very European (well, Eco, Milan, Italian). It's more like having a good friend that you like to listen to, for weeks on end, and then suddenly, all hell breaks loose.

And then, you see why your friend was talking about so many things. And may of the chapters can stand on their own, at least in certain point that are being made.

But, if you think you can just zip through it, like Cussler, forget it.

Oh, Cussler, goodness. I hope not.

One description someone gave me was "it's the thinking person's Da Vinci Code." Which doesn't mean much to me. That's like calling it the "starving person's footstool." And I know Pendulum has something to do with Templars, etc, but I do hope it's not too much like the Da Vinci Code.

603 Bob Dillon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:26:10pm

re: #543 MandyManners

Interesting POV.

One of my favorites from Buckminster Fuller:

"At the present moment, we could take all the machinery from all the countries around the world, all the railroad tracks, all the wires, etc., everything we call industrialization - and we could dump this all in the ocean. Within six months two billion people would die of starvation, having endured great pain. On the other hand, supposing that we take away instead every politician - all the ideologies, all the books on politics - and send them into orbit around the sun, everybody would keep on eating as before, down would go all the political barriers, and we would begin to find ways in which we could send the goods that were in great surplus in one place to another. So people may even begin to eat a little better - in a hurry. This could not be said before."

- excerpt from a lecture Fuller gave in 1966, titled "The Year 2000"*

604 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:26:12pm

re: #588 Wishing

e-sword, eh?

yes

605 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:27:20pm

re: #564 Killgore Trout

Sort of. The tin can won't fit through the little door of my Big Green Egg So I just took some old trimmings off my pear tree (about 2 inch thick disks), put them in the bottom and stick to soldering iron in there. It works pretty damn well.

So, in other words. Not at all. I was trying to figure out what you did with the can until I realize - you're not using the can at all.

I'm going to try that later this Spring. Probably still too cold in MN to cold smoke a piece of salmon.

Then again, I really like grilled salmon, and always use hickory chips, so I don't know why I feel the need to smoke one, other than for the sake of trying it.

I once made my own barbecue sauce from scratch. Took the better part of two days to reduce it to a nice, thick paste.

Probably spent $15 or so on the ingredients.

Then I got to thinking...

606 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:27:25pm

re: #579 Charles

Please don't dump 50 Bible quotes into a comment at LGF.


International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus burst into tears.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus wept.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus cried.

King James Bible
Jesus wept.

Bible in Basic English
And Jesus himself was weeping.

(I couldn't help myself...)

607 Killer Tomato  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:28:03pm

re: #543 MandyManners

Well, it was tongue in cheek.

608 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:28:39pm

re: #595 Steve

Basically, just being good or having good intentions does nothing but make you a good person in peoples eyes not God's.

What if someone never heard the Christian Gospels yet they lived a good in every way life by J*'s standards. Would your God really reject him or her?

609 rain of lead  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:28:46pm

re: #592 rain of lead

ok then take the three posts you made... tighten then up just a little
and you have "Ludwig's Toolbelt of Troll Hammers" when one hammer is just not enough to get the job done>

or just call it Ludwigs Toolbelt for short

610 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:29:37pm

re: #608 Mich-again

What if someone never heard the Christian Gospels yet they lived a good in every way life by J*'s standards. Would your God really reject him or her?

I'm guessing ... yes.

611 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:29:51pm

re: #590 Killgore Trout

do you know who the other Arab guy on the plane was? I recognize the actor from 3 Kings where he tortured Mark Walberg but I can't remember if we've seen him in Lost before. Stupid Jack made a big deal about seeing him (overacted of course). Do we know who he is?

No, and I don't have a good idea, but I do know that the character was on the casting sheets this season. Once again I don't remember how many episodes.

I imagine Kate and Jack having a little shag is important, since I suspect kate is now pregnant, another balance, another course correction.

One of the most important things about the shoes, even if the set up was forced, is, the producers, about three years ago, said there was something in the very first episode that would prove that they had the basic plot arcs worked out.

Well, it's the sneakers that Jack's dead dad had on. We were NEVER told why he was wearing sneaker, for a matter of fact, nothing was ever said about them, except a lot of people noticed, right from the git go. Even one sneaker was hanging from a tree, right near where Jack first woke up after the crash.

It's a typical writing device, but still, it proves their point. The bit about putting shoes on Locke could NEVER have been written in to the episode unless they planned that 5 years ago. Think about it carefully.

612 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:30:10pm

re: #609 rain of lead

or just call it Ludwigs Toolbelt for short

well heck, keep going!
How about LTB?
Better yet, Lu

613 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:30:25pm

re: #608 Mich-again

What if someone never heard the Christian Gospels yet they lived a good in every way life by J*'s standards. Would your God really reject him or her?

Yes, by some narrow sectarian interpretations.

614 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:31:12pm

re: #610 Charles

I'm guessing ... yes.

There's been a great deal of thought and literature about that, actually.

I don't believe it says anywhere in the Bible that we must know Jesus. Rather, that he must know us.

615 VioletTiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:31:25pm

re: #495 Racer X

Its getting clearer.

They believe Evolution = Atheism

This is why they get so upset.


I think you are right. They don't see how Evolution and belief can coexist.

616 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:31:38pm

re: #606 Cognito

Reminds me of a college journalism professor, a Sri Lankan, who always told us, "You must all the time be speaking in active voice."

The irony was lost on all but me.

617 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:32:36pm

re: #615 VioletTiger

I think you are right. They don't see how Evolution and belief can coexist.

It is the Christian mindset, I am afraid.
It is either this OR that, it cannot be both/and.
Very sad, linear, closed place to be.

618 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:32:42pm

re: #45 Devil's Advocate

Oh the Irony.

"Vladimir Putin Warns America About Socialism."

OK. I'll take Obama-style socialism over gangland oligarchy, thinly-veiled perpetual presidency, nepotistic kleptocracy, religious kakistocracy, human-trafficking bureaucracy, endemic alcoholism, tumbling life expectancy, bellum perpetuum finitibus, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Россия живет в аде.

619 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:32:48pm

re: #616 Noam Sayin'

Reminds me of a college journalism professor, a Sri Lankan, who always told us, "You must all the time be speaking in active voice."

The irony was lost on all but me.

So you were losing the irony.

620 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:33:23pm

re: #610 Charles

I'm guessing ... yes.

I don't know if I could ever be a "religious" person in that sense. I say your deeds define you as a person more than your words do.

621 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:33:27pm

re: #592 rain of lead

ok then take the three posts you made... tighten then up just a little
and you have "Ludwig's Toolbelt of Troll Hammers" when one hammer is just not enough to get the job done>

Actually, several helpful Lizards have pointed out a bunch of other things they would like addressed - and they are correct. The mentality of the other side is that any one of their half baked arguments is sufficient. You need to get them all.

The ID people are like herpes. They keep erupting again and again in different ways.

622 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:33:28pm

re: #608 Mich-again

What if someone never heard the Christian Gospels yet they lived a good in every way life by J*'s standards. Would your God really reject him or her?

All the evidence for God is out there. It depends on whether you believe it or not.

623 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:34:02pm

re: #605 Noam Sayin'

Actually it's the best time for cold smoking salmon (this is where I got the link to the soup can soldering iron thing). I have a few soldering irons around. I use them for of thing than soldering which involves lead. You should probably buy a new one. My super powered soldering iron produces too much heat (you really shouldn't go much on 70-80 degrees or so) and my little one doesn't make enough smoke. Colder weather means you can make more smoke with less heat. After a few more trial runs I plan to smoke a whole bunch of salmon to last me through the summer.

624 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:34:05pm

re: #603 Bobibutu

One of my favorites from Buckminster Fuller:

"At the present moment, we could take all the machinery from all the countries around the world, all the railroad tracks, all the wires, etc., everything we call industrialization - and we could dump this all in the ocean. Within six months two billion people would die of starvation, having endured great pain. On the other hand, supposing that we take away instead every politician - all the ideologies, all the books on politics - and send them into orbit around the sun, everybody would keep on eating as before, down would go all the political barriers, and we would begin to find ways in which we could send the goods that were in great surplus in one place to another. So people may even begin to eat a little better - in a hurry. This could not be said before."

- excerpt from a lecture Fuller gave in 1966, titled "The Year 2000"*

Consider that some politicians seem to want to do the former, or at least make many restrictions on technology. Take Al Gore. Please.

625 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:34:11pm

re: #617 Wishing

It is the Christian mindset, I am afraid.
It is either this OR that, it cannot be both/and.
Very sad, linear, closed place to be.

It is a particular sectarian mindset, not all encompassing Christian.

626 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:34:23pm

re: #618 Cato the Elder

"Vladimir Putin Warns America About Socialism."

OK. I'll take Obama-style socialism over gangland oligarchy, thinly-veiled perpetual presidency, nepotistic kleptocracy, religious kakistocracy, human-trafficking bureaucracy, endemic alcoholism, tumbling life expectancy, bellum perpetuum finitibus, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Россия живет в аде.

Don't forget adding polonium to your diet if you disagree with them....

627 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:34:24pm

Sure enough. It's a "yes."

628 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:34:31pm

re: #618 Cato the Elder

"Vladimir Putin Warns America About Socialism."

OK. I'll take Obama-style socialism over gangland oligarchy, thinly-veiled perpetual presidency, nepotistic kleptocracy, religious kakistocracy, human-trafficking bureaucracy, endemic alcoholism, tumbling life expectancy, bellum perpetuum finitibus, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Россия живет в аде.

So would I, but its a really bad option even so.

629 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:34:32pm

re: #617 Wishing

er... when you say "Christian" could you be more specific? There are a lot of believers in Christ on this site who believe God is our creator but leave the details up to him.

630 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:34:36pm

No, darn it... Past tense, active voice...

You lost the irony.

That sounds weird though.

631 Haverwilde  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:34:40pm

Well, I am off to bed. I've got to start the preparations for my lobbying trip to D.C. on Sunday.

Don't bother keeping any troll left-overs for me. They will be too rank before I get back.

Night all!

632 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:34:59pm

re: #614 Cognito

There's been a great deal of thought and literature about that, actually.

I don't believe it says anywhere in the Bible that we must know Jesus. Rather, that he must know us.

I don't know. In Judaism, God makes it clear that he 'chose' the Jews, but that all people are his children and that he expects goodness out of everyone. I don't think that Judaism, therefore, requires complete awareness of God. If it did, then Judaism would probably have more of a missionary tone, which it doesn't.

633 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:35:08pm

re: #617 Wishing

It is the Christian mindset, I am afraid.
It is either this OR that, it cannot be both/and.
Very sad, linear, closed place to be.

No it's not! It's is the mindset that the Dishonest Institute is trying to force everyone to swallow. True Christians should resist this!

BiJ.

634 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:35:08pm

re: #587 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, there is that separation clause and the fact that the PTA would be all over said teacher in a heartbeat if that happened.

That is part of the problem, or at least how the problem is perceived. The separation clause doesn't cover atheists, as they are not trying to establish a religion.

635 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:35:23pm

re: #619 Cognito

So you were losing the irony.

No, I got the irony of it. Did I express that incorrectly?

He used the example, "Jesus wept. It is not written, Jesus was weeping."

636 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:35:30pm

re: #508 LudwigVanQuixote

Another part of the FAQ.

Darwinism lead to Nazism

This is utter garbage. The notion that one group of people is superior to another - and thus has the right to dehumanize, abuse and kill them is as old as the first time a slave felt the lash. There are over 4,000 years of recorded history before the coming of Darwin to show this dark tendency in our species. There has always been rape, pillage, slavery, murder and carnage justified by racism and nationalism. No one was quoting Darwin in Nanking, Rwanda, or Darfur. No one quoted Darwin to the Native Americans.

The Jews were not murdered by Darwin. The Jews were not murdered by the thousands of doctors who save lives with the insights gained from Darwin. They did not die so that you can make a cheap and ill thought point to push your dogma.

Ludwig--it's getting better and better. Be as concise as possible and use simple words --remember, Creationists are non-majors, preaching to non-majors.

637 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:36:31pm

re: #623 Killgore Trout

Then maybe I'll give it a try. But it's still really cold here until next week.

638 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:36:33pm

re: #625 FurryOldGuyJeans

It is a particular sectarian mindset, not all encompassing Christian.

Ok, I can accept that. I am most familiar with this line of thinking with those of the Christian persuasion, that's all. It comes up all the time in their thinking, but having never learned how to question, they just don't see it or realize the narrow thought-life they have accepted.

639 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:36:37pm

re: #634 Fried Spam

That is part of the problem, or at least how the problem is perceived. The separation clause doesn't cover atheists, as they are not trying to establish a religion.

Again. You made the claim that science teachers are "teaching atheism" to children, and that's why we need "academic freedom" bills. Do you have anything at all to back this up, or is it just an unsupported opinion?

640 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:36:38pm

re: #611 Walter L. Newton

Well, it's the sneakers that Jack's dead dad had on. We were NEVER told why he was wearing sneaker, for a matter of fact, nothing was ever said about them, except a lot of people noticed, right from the git go. Even one sneaker was hanging from a tree, right near where Jack first woke up after the crash.

It's a typical writing device, but still, it proves their point. The bit about putting shoes on Locke could NEVER have been written in to the episode unless they planned that 5 years ago. Think about it carefully.


Good point. I was a little disappointed with last night episode while watching. I thought about it some more and thought maybe it wasn't so bad. Now I'm starting to think it was one of the better ones.

641 rain of lead  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:36:41pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote

ok then Ludwigs Toolbelt (tm) it is then.
this belt has alot of pouches- just add tool as needed :)

642 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:36:42pm

re: #622 Steve

All the evidence for God is out there. It depends on whether you believe it or not.

God, yes. Even the rocks call out his name, I believe it says.

But what about Jesus himself?

(I'm not poking at you, truly. I think it's an interesting question.)

643 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:37:13pm

re: #610 Charles

I'm guessing ... yes.

What are the standards that God has set out for entering heaven? He is the one that sets the rules not me. His rules are in the Bible. Start with Romans.

Charles, you are the one in control of LGF not anyone else. Can anyone else change your rules?

Just asking.

644 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:37:37pm

re: #630 Cognito

No, darn it... Past tense, active voice...

You lost the irony.

That sounds weird though.

No.

The irony was lost by all.

But me.

Now I'm weeping.

645 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:37:42pm

re: #636 ggt

Ludwig--it's getting better and better. Be as concise as possible and use simple words --remember, Creationists are non-majors, preaching to non-majors.

Except when they come in here and try to witness, or win martyr points on being persecuted.

646 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:37:48pm

re: #608 Mich-again

What if someone never heard the Christian Gospels yet they lived a good in every way life by J*'s standards. Would your God really reject him or her?

re: #610 Charles

I'm guessing ... yes.

According to traditional theology, such people do go to hell, but a cushy part of Hell. Dante placed "the virtuous pagans" -- i.e. those born in the BC era, and thus had no chance to accept Christ at all, such as Socrates, etc. -- in the First Circle, where there are no torments other than the eternal awareness of your apartness from God.

A nice part of Hell, but Hell nonetheless -- all for the crime of being born too soon, or in the wrong part of the world, or or having your mother raise you chained in a doghouse and feeding you Spaghetti-Os and Mountain Dew and never explaining the Gospel to you.

647 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:37:54pm

re: #629 EmmmieG

er... when you say "Christian" could you be more specific? There are a lot of believers in Christ on this site who believe God is our creator but leave the details up to him.

Sorry Emmmie, I was speaking of Christians in my circle of friends. No one here.

648 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:38:07pm

re: #602 Cognito

Oh, Cussler, goodness. I hope not.

One description someone gave me was "it's the thinking person's Da Vinci Code." Which doesn't mean much to me. That's like calling it the "starving person's footstool." And I know Pendulum has something to do with Templars, etc, but I do hope it's not too much like the Da Vinci Code.

No it's not. First off, it was written in 1989. It is evident that Dan Brown crafted his character Langdon, after Umberto Eco, since Eco is a professor of semiotics (sign and symbols).

In short, the story is about 3 editors, working for a vanity press in Milan, who's publishing company starts a series of arcana books, all published by vanity authors. As a joke, for fun, the 3 editors decide to start borrowing bits and pieces of all this "Templar" type stories, and developing there own "plan" and spread the word that the "real plan" exists.

Not a good idea. These "truths" exists because people believe in them, and if you tell them there is "no secret," then they know better, there must be a secret because you said there is none.

It's all about self-fulfilling prophecy.

649 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:38:19pm

re: #644 Noam Sayin'

No.

The irony was lost by all.

But me.

Now I'm weeping.

Would it help if I said I got it? ;)

650 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:38:56pm

re: #644 Noam Sayin'

No.

The irony was lost by all.

But me.

Now I'm weeping.

Ah, you're right. I totally misread it.

Sleep approaches.

651 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:39:33pm

Ok, i"m never going to catch-up.

did anyone ever figure out the upper-lower case Walter L. Newton debacle?

652 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:39:39pm

re: #642 Cognito

God, yes. Even the rocks call out his name, I believe it says.

But what about Jesus himself?

(I'm not poking at you, truly. I think it's an interesting question.)

Jesus was God incarnate on earth. Jesus never did change any of God's 10 laws.

653 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:39:52pm

re: #637 Noam Sayin'

I strongly suspect it's best to do it on cold days; much less risk of bacterial infection. The combination of cold and smoke is probably the best and safest way to go.

654 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:39:59pm

re: #622 Steve

All the evidence for God is out there.


That doesn't answer the question. What if some person living on the edge of civilization that no Christian evangelist ever visited or taught lived a life that emulated J* by always serving others around him but never heard of Jesus. Would G* really turn away from them just for being uneducated?

655 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:40:06pm

re: #649 FurryOldGuyJeans

Thanks, furry.

656 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:40:34pm

re: #634 Fried Spam

That is part of the problem, or at least how the problem is perceived. The separation clause doesn't cover atheists, as they are not trying to establish a religion.

Do you have any material that is not recycled Discovery Institute talking points?

657 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:40:44pm

re: #648 Walter L. Newton

No it's not. First off, it was written in 1989. It is evident that Dan Brown crafted his character Langdon, after Umberto Eco, since Eco is a professor of semiotics (sign and symbols).

In short, the story is about 3 editors, working for a vanity press in Milan, who's publishing company starts a series of arcana books, all published by vanity authors. As a joke, for fun, the 3 editors decide to start borrowing bits and pieces of all this "Templar" type stories, and developing there own "plan" and spread the word that the "real plan" exists.

Not a good idea. These "truths" exists because people believe in them, and if you tell them there is "no secret," then they know better, there must be a secret because you said there is none.

It's all about self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'd love to hear Eco's take on the 911 conspiracy people. They need that crap. It fills something in them.

658 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:40:45pm

re: #639 Charles

Again. You made the claim that science teachers are "teaching atheism" to children, and that's why we need "academic freedom" bills. Do you have anything at all to back this up, or is it just an unsupported opinion?

Because they are not including a Christian God in the curriculum they, therefore, are teaching atheism. There is a logical fallacy in there, someone help me out.

something to do with negation or opposites or vast wholes of ignorance.

659 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:40:54pm

re: #595 Steve

Sorry, but works, by itself, does not cut it. But if your works come from faith that is something totally different.
Basically, just being good or having good intentions does nothing but make you a good person in peoples eyes not God's.

So when God gave the Noahide instructions to the generations of Noah, did He then change his mind? That was an eternal convenant.

What happened to righteous people before the gospels? Also did God make eternal other covenants (and we both know what I am referring to there) only to change His mind?

I know the doctrine that you are espousing and I am not trying to tell you what you should believe as a matter of faith. I am also not trying to insult you. I have however always been confused by this doctrine as it contradicts other doctrines and I don't see how it gets resolved. How do you resolve it?

660 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:41:01pm

re: #653 Killgore Trout

Good point. A trip to the hardware store tomorrow.

661 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:41:11pm

re: #654 Mich-again

That doesn't answer the question. What if some person living on the edge of civilization that no Christian evangelist ever visited or taught lived a life that emulated J* by always serving others around him but never heard of Jesus. Would G* really turn away from them just for being uneducated?

Yes. See my comment #646.

662 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:41:47pm

re: #652 Steve

Jesus was God incarnate on earth. Jesus never did change any of God's 10 laws.

I thought there were some 400+ laws --Christians paired them down to only 1 --the Golden Rule.

Jewish Lizards, help me out here.

geesh, I need a lot of help tonite.

:)

663 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:42:08pm

re: #646 zombie

or having your mother raise you chained in a doghouse and feeding you Spaghetti-Os and Mountain Dew and never explaining the Gospel to you.

Is that you Mom?
/

664 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:42:10pm

re: #652 Steve

Jesus was God incarnate on earth. Jesus never did change any of God's 10 laws.

I'm not sure what that's got to do with the question, though. Do you believe someone who's never heard of Christ -- and yet strives to live a Christ-like life -- would be condemned?

665 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:42:14pm

Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

666 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:42:20pm

re: #655 Noam Sayin'

Thanks, furry.

I was having a good laugh when I read what you typed, but an even big howl when I read the responses.

And I am a graduate of only the school of hard knocks. ;)

667 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:43:01pm

re: #651 ggt

Ok, i"m never going to catch-up.

did anyone ever figure out the upper-lower case Walter L. Newton debacle?

Anyone can sign in with all lower-case letters.

Was that a debacle?

668 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:43:16pm

re: #654 Mich-again

That doesn't answer the question. What if some person living on the edge of civilization that no Christian evangelist ever visited or taught lived a life that emulated J* by always serving others around him but never heard of Jesus. Would G* really turn away from them just for being uneducated?

Absolutely. That's exactly what Steve is saying.

669 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:43:19pm

re: #634 Fried Spam

That is part of the problem, or at least how the problem is perceived. The separation clause doesn't cover atheists, as they are not trying to establish a religion.

Stating that you do not believe in God is as much a religious statement as saying that you do. It is also a violation. Also, there is the fact that the local PTA would be on it like flies on a carcass and no principle would let that pass. The problem usually goes the other way where atheist kids are berated by teachers and no-one does anything.

670 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:43:32pm

re: #665 Dustyvet

Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?

LOL!

671 Haverwilde  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:43:40pm

It is said that a dog is man's best friend; it is further said that a religious fanatic's best friend is his dogma.
Good nght again and for sure!

672 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:43:46pm

re: #650 Cognito

Ah, you're right. I totally misread it.

Sleep approaches.

You see. I wasn't trying to bust your balls on that one. I know you're on guard with me, and I understand that. But I also think you might have made the errant presumption that I'm a dumbass, and you needed to correct me.

673 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:44:07pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, several helpful Lizards have pointed out a bunch of other things they would like addressed - and they are correct. The mentality of the other side is that any one of their half baked arguments is sufficient. You need to get them all.

The ID people are like herpes. They keep erupting again and again in different ways.

And there are a shitload of them:

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

674 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:44:16pm

re: #662 ggt

I thought there were some 400+ laws --Christians paired them down to only 1 --the Golden Rule.

Jewish Lizards, help me out here.

geesh, I need a lot of help tonite.

:)

613 laws. Most Christians would say they hung on to two of them. Love God, love one another.
I love the Messiah, but this is too far of a stretch. lol

675 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:44:29pm

re: #648 Walter L. Newton

No it's not. First off, it was written in 1989. It is evident that Dan Brown crafted his character Langdon, after Umberto Eco, since Eco is a professor of semiotics (sign and symbols).

In short, the story is about 3 editors, working for a vanity press in Milan, who's publishing company starts a series of arcana books, all published by vanity authors. As a joke, for fun, the 3 editors decide to start borrowing bits and pieces of all this "Templar" type stories, and developing there own "plan" and spread the word that the "real plan" exists.

Not a good idea. These "truths" exists because people believe in them, and if you tell them there is "no secret," then they know better, there must be a secret because you said there is none.

It's all about self-fulfilling prophecy.

And in true Ecco style confusing as h@ll!.

676 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:44:41pm

re: #662 ggt

I thought there were some 400+ laws --Christians paired them down to only 1 --the Golden Rule.

Jewish Lizards, help me out here.

geesh, I need a lot of help tonite.

:)

613

677 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:44:45pm

re: #646 zombie

A nice part of Hell, but Hell nonetheless

I know exactly what that means. Born and raised in the suburbs of Detroit.

678 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:45:03pm

re: #654 Mich-again

That doesn't answer the question. What if some person living on the edge of civilization that no Christian evangelist ever visited or taught lived a life that emulated J* by always serving others around him but never heard of Jesus. Would G* really turn away from them just for being uneducated?

You know, I promised myself I would not discuss specific LDS (Mormon) beliefs here, because this isn't a religious site, but this a major point of our doctrine.

From the LDS perspective, we all get our chance to accept or reject Him, in this life or the next. We are happier, though, when we live our lives by his commandments, and that's why the guys or gals with the name tags show up on your doorstep.

679 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:45:20pm

re: #654 Mich-again

That doesn't answer the question. What if some person living on the edge of civilization that no Christian evangelist ever visited or taught lived a life that emulated J* by always serving others around him but never heard of Jesus. Would G* really turn away from them just for being uneducated?

Check Romans Chapter 1 versus 20. I would use an New International Version since it reads more like we talk today. That is the best that I can do for you. I think that you might prefer a lengthy dissertation but I do not have one for you. Sorry.

680 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:45:23pm

re: #646 zombie

Are you sure that's traditional theology?

681 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:45:24pm

re: #672 Noam Sayin'

He does that quite a lot. ;)

682 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:45:30pm

re: #654 Mich-again

That doesn't answer the question. What if some person living on the edge of civilization that no Christian evangelist ever visited or taught lived a life that emulated J* by always serving others around him but never heard of Jesus. Would G* really turn away from them just for being uneducated?

The answer, according to the best theology, is NO! Or rather, those who claim to know who goes where after death are impious prideful fools who had best look to their own souls and leave the divvying up and parceling out of rewards and punishments to God. Placing oneself in the judgment seat is one of the mortal sins: superbia.

683 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:45:35pm

"The existence and nature of God are self-evident; thus, unbelievers are "without excuse." Romans, 1:20

684 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:45:57pm

re: #662 ggt

I thought there were some 400+ laws --Christians paired them down to only 1 --the Golden Rule.

Jewish Lizards, help me out here.

geesh, I need a lot of help tonite.

:)

613 commandments, but for Jews. Only 7 for non-Jews; those are the Noahide commandments.
Non-Jews do not need to circumcize, keep Kosher, make various sacrifices, etc.

685 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:45:59pm

re: #640 Killgore Trout

Good point. I was a little disappointed with last night episode while watching. I thought about it some more and thought maybe it wasn't so bad. Now I'm starting to think it was one of the better ones.

And one last point. Jack, Ben, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Lapidas and others, end up back on the Island, and what do they find. We are in the early 1970's, and the Lefties (the survivors that were left on the Island when it "moved") have infiltrated the Dharma Initiative, and we will probably see how their actions affect (make?) the future, including affect what we have already seen. A self-fulfilling future, as per Foucault's Pendulum.

I don't know. As far as I'm concerned, one of the more clever time travel styled stories I've ever seen/read. And we still will have the fun of finding out the biggest mystery, just what is the Island?

686 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:46:24pm

re: #672 Noam Sayin'

You see. I wasn't trying to bust your balls on that one. I know you're on guard with me, and I understand that. But I also think you might have made the errant presumption that I'm a dumbass, and you needed to correct me.

No, not at all. I thought we were playing a word game. Turns out I was the lone goofball trying to jump rope one-handed.

687 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:46:27pm

re: #617 Wishing

It is the Christian mindset, I am afraid.
It is either this OR that, it cannot be both/and.
Very sad, linear, closed place to be.

Scripture is full of dualities.
We were chosen before the foundation of the world, but have free choice is just one.

688 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:46:51pm

re: #646 zombie

According to traditional theology, such people do go to hell, but a cushy part of Hell. Dante placed "the virtuous pagans" -- i.e. those born in the BC era, and thus had no chance to accept Christ at all, such as Socrates, etc. -- in the First Circle, where there are no torments other than the eternal awareness of your apartness from God.

A nice part of Hell, but Hell nonetheless -- all for the crime of being born too soon, or in the wrong part of the world, or or having your mother raise you chained in a doghouse and feeding you Spaghetti-Os and Mountain Dew and never explaining the Gospel to you.

OK Socrates gets cable TV but we still don't :(

689 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:46:52pm

re: #683 Charles

"The existence and nature of God are self-evident; thus, unbelievers are "without excuse." Romans, 1:20

I would suggest that serving other human beings is being God-like and I have a hunch He would be delighted.

690 Killer Tomato  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:46:58pm

We were supposed to get scattered showers this evening, so how come there's a snowstorm in progress?
gack
I'm out.
'night all -

691 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:47:02pm

BBL, need to get up too early tomorrow.

692 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:47:06pm

re: #667 Cognito

Anyone can sign in with all lower-case letters.

Was that a debacle?

I think it was this morning on a thread. Someone was posting as "walter l. newton", not Walter L. Newton".

693 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:47:20pm

re: #657 Cognito

I'd love to hear Eco's take on the 911 conspiracy people. They need that crap. It fills something in them.

Ok, you just nailed the whole theme of Foucault's Pendulum.

694 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:47:26pm

So in other words, you could be Albert Schweitzer, Isaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, and Louis Armstrong all rolled into one, and if you didn't take the Bible literally, you're going to BURN IN HELL!

695 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:47:43pm

re: #648 Walter L. Newton

I've read "Name of the Rose" and enjoyed it immensely, is Pendulum anything similar?

696 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:47:47pm

re: #682 Cato the Elder

What happens if you keep your nose clean. Generally decent person and never really violated a "10 Commandments" per se. But your an atheist. Maybe die owing about 30,000 dollars.

Heaven or hell?

697 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:47:51pm

re: #676 LudwigVanQuixote

613

thanks!

And, IIRC, the Golden Rule existed before Jesus. I have it somewhere, it's been found virtually every religious text.

698 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:47:55pm

Ezekial 25:17

699 lostlakehiker  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:47:57pm

re: #98 fried spam

From the ncseweb site:

"Evolution makes no claims about God's existence or non-existence, any more than do other scientific theories such as gravitation, atomic structure, or plate tectonics. Just like gravity, the theory of evolution is compatible with theism, atheism, and agnosticism. Can I accept evolution as the most compelling explanation for biological diversity, and yet also accept the idea that God works through evolution? Certainly."

There are, however, many folks who disagree with that statement. There are ardent atheists who strongly believe that evolution precludes God's existence.

Now, the thing is, while I don't want creationism taught in science class to my kids, I also don't want an atheist to have unfettered license to teach atheism to my kids, in the guise of science.

How do we go about preventing that, while not going so far as these academic freedom initiatives?

There is no scientific case for the claim that evolution precludes the existence of God. Anyone teaching that has stepped outside his mandate to teach science, and gone off the deep end into teaching his own personal philosophy as if it were the "God-given" truth.

We see that all the time in classes on history, political "science", etc., from the left. It's noxious. And guess what: we science types hate it when blowhards drag the good name of science through the dirt like that.

So rest easy. Nobody's going to have a career teaching atheism while pretending that it's science. His students will complain, their test scores will reflect his inattention to duty and his habit of wasting their time, and he'll be gone.

Is that really what you're worried about? Or do you just want evolution not taught, because if it is, and you've been teaching that evolution and God are contradictory, young peoples' faith may waver? The history of insisting that fallible human exegesis trumps any sort of evidence from the real world is a sorry one, and it certainly hasn't bolstered the faithful in their faith. Not in the long run. Error is error, and stubborn error is pride as well as error.

700 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:48:03pm

re: #671 Haverwilde

It is said that a dog is man's best friend; it is further said that a religious fanatic's best friend is his dogma.

The folks who say that should read this... Why are the Neanderthals Extinct? Short answer.. They didn't like dogs.

701 Neo Con since 9-11  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:48:12pm

re: #373 Brit in Japan

re: #658 ggt

Because they are not including a Christian God in the curriculum they, therefore, are teaching atheism. There is a logical fallacy in there, someone help me out.

something to do with negation or opposites or vast wholes of ignorance.

Simple set theory fail
Science teachers do not evangelize for G*d = set A.
Atheists do not evangelize for G*d = set B.
Therefore, set A=set B.
Hence, science teachers=atheist

702 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:48:13pm

re: #683 Charles

"The existence and nature of God are self-evident; thus, unbelievers are "without excuse." Romans, 1:20

Disbelief in God, that is.

703 Afrocity  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:48:20pm

I catch you guys on the overnight thread.

704 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:48:34pm

re: #684 Kosh's Shadow

613 commandments, but for Jews. Only 7 for non-Jews; those are the Noahide commandments.
Non-Jews do not need to circumcize, keep Kosher, make various sacrifices, etc.

I wonder if Steve knows them (the seven Noahide laws) and what he thinks of them in the context of an eternal covenant?

705 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:48:39pm

Thankfully, the vast majority of Christians are nowhere near as inflexibly dogmatic and intolerant as Steve.

706 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:48:44pm

re: #694 Charles

So in other words, you could be Albert Schweitzer, Isaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, and Louis Armstrong all rolled into one, and if you didn't take the Bible literally, you're going to BURN IN HELL!

Yes, but if you repent. That always seemed odd to me. The logic that is.

707 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:48:59pm

re: #696 Gus 802

What happens if you keep your nose clean. Generally decent person and never really violated a "10 Commandments" per se. But your an atheist. Maybe die owing about 30,000 dollars.

Heaven or hell?

Pack light.
LOLOLOL

708 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:49:30pm

re: #634 Fried Spam

That is part of the problem, or at least how the problem is perceived. The separation clause doesn't cover atheists, as they are not trying to establish a religion.

Untrue. The US can not favor one viewpoint over another. They cannot favor theism over atheism, or atheism over theism.

BTW: of 538 Congresspeople and Senators, how many are professedly atheist? One: Pete Stark, Rep. CA.

I don't think you have a problem. I think that you WANT one, so you can shoehorn a trap door for creationism in as a 'solution'.

709 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:49:36pm

re: #697 ggt

thanks!

And, IIRC, the Golden Rule existed before Jesus. I have it somewhere, it's been found virtually every religious text.

I think it was Hillel. Dont do to others what you dont want done to you.

710 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:49:38pm

re: #707 Wishing

Pack light.
LOLOLOL

:) Bring the swimming trunks?

/No Speedos.

711 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:49:46pm

re: #668 Charles

Absolutely. That's exactly what Steve is saying.

IIRC, reine help me out here, the Vatican has something to say on that one.

The word of G-d is written on every human heart. Therefore, one does not have to hear the word of G-d from a preacher or any person. One only has to listen.

i.e. Job.

712 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:50:00pm

Fleece on earth. Good wool to ewe.

713 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:50:05pm

re: #683 Charles

"The existence and nature of God are self-evident; thus, unbelievers are "without excuse." Romans, 1:20

"We hold these truths to be self evident" is the only weak phrase in the entire declaration of independence.


That said, time for some sleeps.

714 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:50:05pm

Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

/Lt. Harry 'Breaker' Morant, epitaph

715 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:50:15pm

re: #680 Cognito

Are you sure that's traditional theology?

Billy Graham said so, famously, in the 1960s or so. Dante said so in the 1300s. I don't have the links handy, but in my understanding both medieval Catholics and modern evangelicals both believe/d that Heaven is reserved exclusively for those who accept Jesus, and no others. Hence, if you haven't accepted Jesus -- even if it was because you had no idea who Jesus even was -- you were excluded from Heaven...which can only lead to one alternate eternal resting place: Hell.

I'm sure if you searched you could find confirming links.

716 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:50:26pm

re: #692 ggt

I think it was this morning on a thread. Someone was posting as "walter l. newton", not Walter L. Newton".

That was me. Charles saves you user name all in the same case. You can type it in as any case, his software will transform it into whatever case he stores it in the database as.

But, he uses what you typed in to display on the page itself. So

WALTER L. NEWTON is stored in the database.

I type in walter l. newton

Software uppers the case to WALTER L. NEWTON, checks name and password and...

Screen displays walter l. newton

717 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:50:52pm

re: #695 FurryOldGuyJeans

I've read "Name of the Rose" and enjoyed it immensely, is Pendulum anything similar?

No.

718 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:50:56pm

re: #686 Cognito

No, not at all. I thought we were playing a word game.

Are you sure?

Your answer is for you, not me.

719 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:51:11pm

re: #671 Haverwilde

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

paraphrasing Steven Wright.

720 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:51:58pm

re: #677 Mich-again

I know exactly what that means. Born and raised in the suburbs of Detroit.

me too, in the '70's. ugh.

721 Muadib  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:52:04pm

For a change of pace, let's sneak science into the churches.

722 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:52:04pm

re: #715 zombie

Billy Graham said so, famously, in the 1960s or so. Dante said so in the 1300s. I don't have the links handy, but in my understanding both medieval Catholics and modern evangelicals both believe/d that Heaven is reserved exclusively for those who accept Jesus, and no others. Hence, if you haven't accepted Jesus -- even if it was because you had no idea who Jesus even was -- you were excluded from Heaven...which can only lead to one alternate eternal resting place: Hell.

I'm sure if you searched you could find confirming links.

Please Zombie...tell me you don't believe that?

723 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:52:04pm

re: #719 ggt

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

paraphrasing Steven Wright.

I thought that was a Mark Twain quote originally?

724 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:52:42pm

re: #717 Walter L. Newton

No.

Well, as uncommunicative as that answer was I think I will still let the book join my library request page.

725 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:53:16pm

re: #723 Walter L. Newton

I thought that was a Mark Twain quote originally?

It is Twain.

726 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:53:18pm

re: #723 Walter L. Newton

I thought that was a Mark Twain quote originally?

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Groucho Marx
US comedian with Marx Brothers (1890 - 1977)

727 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:53:22pm

re: #715 zombie

Billy Graham said so, famously, in the 1960s or so. Dante said so in the 1300s. I don't have the links handy, but in my understanding both medieval Catholics and modern evangelicals both believe/d that Heaven is reserved exclusively for those who accept Jesus, and no others. Hence, if you haven't accepted Jesus -- even if it was because you had no idea who Jesus even was -- you were excluded from Heaven...which can only lead to one alternate eternal resting place: Hell.

I'm sure if you searched you could find confirming links.

This intolerant, exclusionary type of religion is taught every day in this country by people like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, etc.

728 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:53:29pm

re: #683 Charles

"The existence and nature of God are self-evident; thus, unbelievers are "without excuse." Romans, 1:20

Long before Paul, there was a Greek guy named Aristotle.

Until the early 19th century people generally believed in the ongoing spontaneous generation of life from non-living matter — abiogenesis. In contrast, beliefs where one form of life derives from a different form (e.g. bees from flowers) was heterogenesis. Classical notions of abiogenesis, now more precisely known as spontaneous generation, held that complex, living organisms are generated by decaying organic substances. According to Aristotle it was a readily observable truth that aphids arise from the dew which falls on plants, fleas from putrid matter, mice from dirty hay, crocodiles from rotting logs at the bottom of bodies of water, and so forth.
729 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:53:49pm

re: #694 Charles

So in other words, you could be Albert Schweitzer, Isaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, and Louis Armstrong all rolled into one, and if you didn't take the Bible literally, you're going to BURN IN HELL!

You are going to Hell just for conjuring up that gay scenario of Albert Schweitzer, Isaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, and Louis Armstrong all rolling around naked together.

730 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:53:52pm

re: #711 ggt

IIRC, reine help me out here, the Vatican has something to say on that one.

The word of G-d is written on every human heart. Therefore, one does not have to hear the word of G-d from a preacher or any person. One only has to listen.

i.e. Job.

In Jewish tradition, we have the story that in the womb, an angel taught you all of the Law and then touched your lip creating the indentation. When that happened, the Law left your conscious mind so that you could have free will, however, it is still imprinted in you. The story goes on that your job in life is to regain, through your use of free-will that conscious level of clarity and that when you face judgment, your first accuser will be that angle asking what happened to all the knowledge it gave you.

731 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:54:04pm

re: #715 zombie

Billy Graham said so, famously, in the 1960s or so. Dante said so in the 1300s. I don't have the links handy, but in my understanding both medieval Catholics and modern evangelicals both believe/d that Heaven is reserved exclusively for those who accept Jesus, and no others. Hence, if you haven't accepted Jesus -- even if it was because you had no idea who Jesus even was -- you were excluded from Heaven...which can only lead to one alternate eternal resting place: Hell.

I'm sure if you searched you could find confirming links.

We're talking about the 'soft place' in Hell, right?

I'm not sure Dante counts as a theologian. And I'd be shocked -- floored, really -- if Graham spoke of a 'soft place' in some way other than contextually illustrative, because it flies against everything his denomination holds true.

732 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:54:17pm

re: #726 Dustyvet

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Groucho Marx
US comedian with Marx Brothers (1890 - 1977)

lol well Twain and Groucho do look alike!

733 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:54:46pm

re: #727 Charles

This intolerant, exclusionary type of religion politics is taught every day in this country by people like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, etc.

Fixed it for you.

734 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:55:42pm

re: #659 LudwigVanQuixote


What happened to righteous people before the gospels?
Righteousness came by faith, as in Abraham.

(and we both know what I am referring to there)
Um, no I do not.

I have however always been confused by this doctrine as it contradicts other doctrines and I don't see how it gets resolved.
Nothing to resolve. God never changes and he always keeps his promises/covenants.

735 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:55:56pm

re: #729 zombie

You are going to Hell just for conjuring up that gay scenario of Albert Schweitzer, Isaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, and Louis Armstrong all rolling around naked together.

YOU are going to hell for making me laugh hard enough to have soda come out my nose!

736 traderjoe9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:56:08pm

Good night!

737 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:56:17pm

re: #719 ggt

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

paraphrasing Steven Wright.

That was Groucho Marx.

/Who, by the way, is going to Hell.

738 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:56:27pm

re: #718 Noam Sayin'

Are you sure?

Your answer is for you, not me.

Quite positive. You said, "The irony was lost on all but me."

I took that line and tried, as a little joke, to put it in the relentlessly active voice your teacher was espousing. But it turns out "irony was lost on me" completely defies the active voice.

Then it turned out I'd misread it anyway.

739 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:56:43pm

re: #735 LudwigVanQuixote

YOU are going to hell for making me laugh hard enough to have soda come out my nose!

LOL

Actually that's 2 strikes against you now, Z.

740 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:56:58pm

Certain types of religions are a bit foreign to me. My earliest experiences with religion was about 1 1/2 years in Catholic school in Brooklyn. I don't have any bad memories and don't recall any of the types of proselytizing I see in modern day America.

741 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:57:03pm

re: #734 Steve

What happened to righteous people before the gospels?
Righteousness came by faith, as in Abraham.

(and we both know what I am referring to there)
Um, no I do not.

I have however always been confused by this doctrine as it contradicts other doctrines and I don't see how it gets resolved.
Nothing to resolve. God never changes and he always keeps his promises/covenants.

...bit Jesus nailed the Torah to the tree, right?

742 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:57:14pm

re: #683 Charles

"The existence and nature of God are self-evident; thus, unbelievers are "without excuse." Romans, 1:20

Yes, you have the answer.

743 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:57:20pm

re: #724 FurryOldGuyJeans

Well, as uncommunicative as that answer was I think I will still let the book join my library request page.

It was to the point, which is exactly opposite as Foucault's Pendulum is. If you don't like VERY TALKY books, it may be a little too much for you.

The real action doesn't start until about 50 pages before the end of over 600 pages. But it's a great read. And extremely funny, but not in the punchline sort of way.

Beef up on your French, Italian, German and Latin, or else you won't get through certain chapters. They quote a lot of stuff. LONG QUOTES, full pages in European languages, and a lot of European references.

744 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:57:21pm

re: #626 LudwigVanQuixote

Don't forget adding polonium to your diet if you disagree with them....

Or you get stuck with a ricin-poisoned dart from an umbrella.

Oh, wait. That was Bulgaria.

Putin is often described as "ex-KGB". He's not. Putin is the KGB's greatest son and supreme leader.

745 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:57:23pm

re: #737 zombie

That was Groucho Marx.

/Who, by the way, is going to Hell.

Because he is a Jew?

746 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:58:01pm

re: #722 Wishing

Please Zombie...tell me you don't believe that?

Of course I don't believe that. Sheesh, I'm an agnostic. I don't believe (or disblieve) anything.

I'm simply describing what traditional belief was.

747 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:58:31pm

re: #683 Charles

"The existence and nature of God are self-evident; thus, unbelievers are "without excuse." Romans, 1:20

There is the school of thought, that ignorance is no excuse. Burn in hell.

Then a more liberal interpretation, that a someone who is a spiritual seeker of God, even if ignorant of the Bible would be accepted.

Some denominations are so dogmatic that if you are not baptized in their water, you a doomed to burn in hell.

748 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:58:38pm

re: #639 Charles

Again. You made the claim that science teachers are "teaching atheism" to children, and that's why we need "academic freedom" bills. Do you have anything at all to back this up, or is it just an unsupported opinion?

I have not supported the academic freedom bills. You are tagging me with 'guilt by association'.

I am very much in the middle on this issue, despite attempts to paint me as a troll or some such. I don't want creationism taught in science class. I want science taught in science class.

However, I do think that there are underlying problems with the current educational system that do need to be solved. That is the way that a lot of Christians perceive things, and until that perception changes, these types of bills are going to be springing up all over the place. I truly believe that a middle ground should exist, but it takes a lot of listening and working it out.

Now, as to the proof that you are asking for, as you know that takes some research to find sources that would be acceptable to both of us. (non DI, or anything like that) I am making the assumption that we are talking about k-12 educators, and not college professors. (Finding college biology teachers that strongly encourage atheism is not that difficult. ) Coming up with a list of K-12 biology educators that publicly promote atheism outside of the classroom may be challenging, as K-12 teachers don't tend to publish a lot. I will see what I can find from reasonable sources. But probably not tonight. ;>

749 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:58:41pm

re: #746 zombie

Of course I don't believe that. Sheesh, I'm an agnostic. I don't believe (or disblieve) anything.

I'm simply describing what traditional belief was.

Whew.

750 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:58:43pm

re: #729 zombie

You are going to Hell just for conjuring up that gay scenario of Albert Schweitzer, Isaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, and Louis Armstrong all rolling around naked together.

Or maybe the Folsom Street Fair.

751 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:58:44pm

re: #742 Steve

Yes, you have the answer.

I have reason to think Charles did not post that to help prop up your argument.

752 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:58:45pm

re: #701 Neo Con since 9-11

re: #658 ggt

Simple set theory fail
Science teachers do not evangelize for G*d = set A.
Atheists do not evangelize for G*d = set B.
Therefore, set A=set B.
Hence, science teachers=atheist

Thank you.

753 Scion9  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:58:48pm

re: #744 Cato the Elder

No such thing as ex-KGB.

754 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:58:52pm

Billy Graham once hinted that unbelievers might not be doomed to burn in hell.

Here's a Google search if you want to see how this was received in America's fundamentalist Christian community:

[Link: www.google.com...]

755 Bob Dillon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:58:59pm

re: #624 Kosh's Shadow

Consider that some politicians seem to want to do the former, or at least make many restrictions on technology. Take Al Gore. Please.

Yes. I've been a huge fan of Bucky since the 50's. The concept of sending all politicians and ideologies into orbit became a filter for me. I highly recommend his Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth (we lacked one so he wrote it) even now as must reading.

Check it out from the library - original pubs go for near $600.

756 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:59:03pm

re: #705 Charles

Thankfully, the vast majority of Christians are nowhere near as inflexibly dogmatic and intolerant as Steve.

If you put the concept of lifestyle aside, correct me if I'm wrong, most every religion is about life after death disposition.

/you picks your team, you takes your chances

757 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:59:17pm

re: #149 Charles

Feel the love:

Hitler banned powdered donuts? You learn something new every day.

758 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:59:36pm

re: #741 Wishing

...bit Jesus nailed the Torah to the tree, right?

Where did you find that? Or what do you mean by that? In all seriousness.

759 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:59:44pm

re: #745 Wishing

Because he is a Jew?

I don't have a photograph, but you can have my footprints. They're upstairs in my socks.

Groucho Marx, In the film A Day at the Races

760 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:59:56pm

re: #751 Mich-again

I have reason to think Charles did not post that to help prop up your argument.

He knows that. It's a sneaky way to let me know that I'm going to BURN IN HELL!

761 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 9:59:59pm

re: #742 Steve

Yes, you have the answer.

No. For heaven's sake. Please answer me: Do you believe someone who's never heard of Christ -- and yet strives to live a Christ-like life -- would be condemned?

762 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:00:11pm

re: #743 Walter L. Newton

It was to the point, which is exactly opposite as Foucault's Pendulum is. If you don't like VERY TALKY books, it may be a little too much for you.

The real action doesn't start until about 50 pages before the end of over 600 pages. But it's a great read. And extremely funny, but not in the punchline sort of way.

Beef up on your French, Italian, German and Latin, or else you won't get through certain chapters. They quote a lot of stuff. LONG QUOTES, full pages in European languages, and a lot of European references.

Now that was a bit more communicative. ;)

I had already requested the book before I saw your reply. Turns out the library system still has 1st edition copies.

763 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:00:34pm

re: #754 Charles

Is that like a "waiver."

Frankly, I don't want an afterlife. After only about 50 years I think a long period of sleep sounds nice. No dreams, no nightmares. Perchance not to dream.

764 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:00:44pm

re: #754 Charles

Billy Graham once hinted that unbelievers might not be doomed to burn in hell.

Here's a Google search if you want to see how this was received in American's fundamentalist Christian community:

[Link: www.google.com...]

Funny, because he's more in line, there, with another much-beloved apologist, C.S. Lewis.

765 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:01:02pm

re: #716 Walter L. Newton

That was me. Charles saves you user name all in the same case. You can type it in as any case, his software will transform it into whatever case he stores it in the database as.

But, he uses what you typed in to display on the page itself. So

WALTER L. NEWTON is stored in the database.

I type in walter l. newton

Software uppers the case to WALTER L. NEWTON, checks name and password and...

Screen displays walter l. newton

ah! Thanks for clarifying.

766 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:01:10pm

re: #747 jcm

Some denominations are so dogmatic that if you are not baptized in their water, you a doomed to burn in hell.

That one always drives me up the wall.

767 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:02:05pm

re: #751 Mich-again

I have reason to think Charles did not post that to help prop up your argument.

He is not propping up my arguement. He just has the answer.

768 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:02:13pm

re: #712 Dustyvet

Fleece on earth. Good wool to ewe.

Baaa, Humbug!

769 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:02:18pm

re: #717 Walter L. Newton

No.

I read it (audio version) and it was confusing as h@ll.

I complain about Eco, but I think I continue to read/listen to him. I think the only one I put down and didn't pick back up was Baudilino. Can't remember why.

770 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:02:19pm

re: #734 Steve

What happened to righteous people before the gospels?
Righteousness came by faith, as in Abraham.

(and we both know what I am referring to there)
Um, no I do not.

I have however always been confused by this doctrine as it contradicts other doctrines and I don't see how it gets resolved.
Nothing to resolve. God never changes and he always keeps his promises/covenants.

OK, so, Avraham came to his faith through reason. He reasoned that idols fashioned by man could not be divine. He reasoned that those who prayed to the Earth surely were beneath the sun and the sky. He asked what is above that.

This led him to God and Monotheism.

I bring this part as a side note about science. God gave us reason for a reason.

The deeper point is that God told the generations after Noah that they had Seven things they had to do to be righteous and made an eternal covenant with them. If god does not change, and people do those things they should be covered.

The other eternal covenant is the one with the Jewish people. We get 613 laws to do not 7. Many of those 613 have to do with the Temple, not all apply today, but there is still the covenant, and God does not change.

So presumably The Jews who follow the Law are covered too. If that is the case, who is left out?

771 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:02:21pm

re: #756 Killian Bundy

If you put the concept of lifestyle aside, correct me if I'm wrong, most every religion is about life after death disposition.

/you picks your team, you takes your chances

Yeah, the burn-in-hell part is sort of part of the decision to sample other dishes in the great buffet of belief.

772 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:02:32pm

Billy Graham is of the Devil.

Billy Graham is of the Devil, leading the evangelical churches of America into an unholy union with the pervert Catholic Church. This is what deceivers do, they seduce the innocents and are up to no good. Catholicism will take you to Hell, and Billy Graham doesn’t seem to have any qualms with that.

773 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:02:39pm

re: #745 Wishing

Because he is a Jew?

Because, as a Jew, he consciously rejected Christ.

(Again, I am describing other people's beliefs, not mine. I maintain the shocking sinful and evil opinion that there is no such thing as Heaven and Hell. Ooooooohhhh! I'm in for it now.)

774 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:02:50pm

re: #758 Steve

Where did you find that? Or what do you mean by that? In all seriousness.

To answer you best, let me ask this: do you believe that Jesus was circumcised the 8th day? do you believe He kept the Feasts? did he eat kosher? If the answer to these q's is yes, I am assuming you do all these things as well, since He said Follow me.

775 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:03:30pm

re: #723 Walter L. Newton

I thought that was a Mark Twain quote originally?

Could be, I seem to be less than normally detail deficient tonite.

Was that a double negative.

agh, you get the idea.

776 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:03:57pm

re: #744 Cato the Elder

Or you get stuck with a ricin-poisoned dart from an umbrella.

Oh, wait. That was Bulgaria.

Putin is often described as "ex-KGB". He's not. Putin is the KGB's greatest son and supreme leader.

I know that story too.... Don't be a human rights attorney over there either...

To quote my Grandmother, "There are many reasons why the family left. God bless America!"

777 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:04:00pm

For a better description than I have offered (no book spoilers)

Foucault's Pendulum (original title: Il pendolo di Foucault) is a novel by Italian novelist and philosopher Umberto Eco. It was first published in 1988; the translation into English by William Weaver appeared a year later.

Foucault's Pendulum is divided into ten segments represented by the ten Sefiroth. The novel is full of esoteric references to the Kabbalah, alchemy and conspiracy theory, so many that critic and novelist Anthony Burgess suggested that it needed an index. The title of the book derives from an actual pendulum designed by the French physicist Léon Foucault to demonstrate the rotation of the earth.

But I won't give the link to Wiki, since it describes the whole plot.

778 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:04:14pm

re: #740 Gus 802

Certain types of religions are a bit foreign to me. My earliest experiences with religion was about 1 1/2 years in Catholic school in Brooklyn. I don't have any bad memories and don't recall any of the types of proselytizing I see in modern day America.

I've seen/experienced plenty up here in MN. Not all Lutherans are nice.

The real kicker was the Lutheran private junior high school I went to. The principal was also the 7-8th teacher and a class A self-righteous intolerant jerk to me. I ended up getting the last laugh much later when I found out he went to PMITA prison for many years as he'd been banging the 'popular girls' in mine and other classes for years.

Hope I meet him face to face someday.

779 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:04:18pm

re: #772 Charles

Billy Graham is of the Devil.

Oh, come on now Charles. There are crazies everywhere.

780 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:04:29pm

re: #773 zombie

Because, as a Jew, he consciously rejected Christ.

(Again, I am describing other people's beliefs, not mine. I maintain the shocking sinful and evil opinion that there is no such thing as Heaven and Hell. Ooooooohhhh! I'm in for it now.)

True. I was around the old Catholic mold. With relative from lets say a South American country. The subject would come up from time to time. This was back in the 60s so I don't know how much things have changed.

781 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:04:55pm

re: #738 Cognito

Yes, but I'm wondering why you would think that the two of us were all of a sudden playing word games, where in almost every interaction in the past two years has resulted in my hurling insults in your direction.

Now, in truth, I was making an earnest attempt at being nice to you. But I still think you work with the operative presumption that I'm an idiot, and that post suggests it.

Even though it hasn't dawned on you yet to look inward, I think that was at the heart of your response to me.

782 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:05:29pm

re: #757 SanFranciscoZionist

Hitler banned powdered donuts? You learn something new every day.

A Jew invented powdered sugar....

///// maybe, I have no idea.... but mostly //////

783 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:05:58pm

re: #760 Charles

It's a sneaky way to let me know that I'm going to BURN IN HELL!

But what about Matthew 7:1? Huh?

784 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:06:03pm

re: #761 Cognito

No. For heaven's sake. Please answer me: Do you believe someone who's never heard of Christ -- and yet strives to live a Christ-like life -- would be condemned?

I cannot answer you because there is no other answer. If you want to disprove what I believe I would support you wholly in that area. Start reading the New Testament. I would suggest Romans and possibly the Gospel of John. Not to be confused with 1st, 2nd or 3rd John.

785 tackle  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:06:09pm

re: #711 ggt

The word of G-d is written on every human heart. Therefore, one does not have to hear the word of G-d from a preacher or any person. One only has to listen.


I'm no Catholic, but there is a similar thought that everyone is given the light of Christ so they can judge right from wrong. And I think God's acceptance of us is much broader than we could imagine. Whether we subscribe to the confines of a certain religion or not, I think we'd be judged rather generously. Hell, the way things are now He'll take what He can get.

786 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:06:11pm

re: #748 Fried Spam

I have not supported the academic freedom bills. You are tagging me with 'guilt by association'.

I am very much in the middle on this issue, despite attempts to paint me as a troll or some such. I don't want creationism taught in science class. I want science taught in science class.

However, I do think that there are underlying problems with the current educational system that do need to be solved. That is the way that a lot of Christians perceive things, and until that perception changes, these types of bills are going to be springing up all over the place. I truly believe that a middle ground should exist, but it takes a lot of listening and working it out.

Now, as to the proof that you are asking for, as you know that takes some research to find sources that would be acceptable to both of us. (non DI, or anything like that) I am making the assumption that we are talking about k-12 educators, and not college professors. (Finding college biology teachers that strongly encourage atheism is not that difficult. ) Coming up with a list of K-12 biology educators that publicly promote atheism outside of the classroom may be challenging, as K-12 teachers don't tend to publish a lot. I will see what I can find from reasonable sources. But probably not tonight. ;>

Sorry; they'd have to promote atheism INSIDE the classroom. Unless you want your proposed laws to eliminate theists from teaching positions, too.

And the public perceptions of Christians, just like the public perceptions of everybody else, can be willfully sculpted to be self-serving.

787 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:06:21pm

I offer this up with great humility, but I interpret Romans 1:20 differently.

If you read Romans 1:18 and 1:19, it appears that Paul was talking about people (he says men, but I don't let women off the hook) who "hold the truth in unrighteousness" then it says that what may be known of God is manifest in them (v. 19)--I believe this pronoun refers back to verse 18. In verse 20, the "they" that are without excuse would still have to be the the men who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Having had the truth shown unto them (verse 19), and also it being so apparent in creation they are without excuse.

We haven't yet been given a subject for them or they other than those people in verse 18.

Going onto verse 21, it says that they knew God but glorified him not. i still think we're talking about people who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Anyway, this is just my personal interpretation.

788 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:06:37pm

re: #767 Steve

He is not propping up my arguement. He just has the answer.

Passive aggressive threat. Nice.

789 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:06:57pm

re: #772 Charles

Billy Graham is of the Devil.

That is Chick comics thinking there. *UGH*

790 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:07:03pm

re: #778 esch

I've seen/experienced plenty up here in MN. Not all Lutherans are nice.

The real kicker was the Lutheran private junior high school I went to. The principal was also the 7-8th teacher and a class A self-righteous intolerant jerk to me. I ended up getting the last laugh much later when I found out he went to PMITA prison for many years as he'd been banging the 'popular girls' in mine and other classes for years.

Hope I meet him face to face someday.

I had some personality clashes in the same grade range but that was in public school with some rather pathetic sorts.

I should have said 2 years in Catholic school. K and 1. Of course everything tends to be nice. My sister transfered to a public school along the way and ironically, the first thing she noticed was that the academics was of a lower quality or as she would say, "these kids are dumb compared too..."

791 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:07:15pm

re: #769 ggt

I read it (audio version) and it was confusing as h@ll.

I complain about Eco, but I think I continue to read/listen to him. I think the only one I put down and didn't pick back up was Baudilino. Can't remember why.

In my opinion, unless you know 4 languages and can translate them in your head just by hearing them, and you have a full understanding of certain esoteric European history (and just a general knowledge of Europe), listening to that book would be very difficult.

I had to look up things as I went along, and I have sort of a good armchair education in arcana.

792 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:07:22pm

re: #781 Noam Sayin'

Well. All right.

There is another possibility; it's that the animosity is all one-way, and I'm ready at the drop of a hat (or word puzzle) to move on to funner-er pastures.

793 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:07:27pm

re: #770 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, so, Avraham came to his faith through reason.

Not reason, but faith.

794 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:08:30pm

re: #777 Walter L. Newton

Hmm. Thanks.

I think I'll go ahead and give it a whirl.

795 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:08:59pm

re: #779 Cognito

Oh, come on now Charles. There are crazies everywhere.

Truer words you have never spoken.

796 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:09:06pm

re: #793 Steve

OK, so, Avraham came to his faith through reason.

Not reason, but faith.

I don't think you can separate the two.

797 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:09:29pm

re: #784 Steve

I cannot answer you because there is no other answer. If you want to disprove what I believe I would support you wholly in that area. Start reading the New Testament. I would suggest Romans and possibly the Gospel of John. Not to be confused with 1st, 2nd or 3rd John.

Wait... what? There is no other answer than what? What is your belief?

798 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:09:39pm

re: #696 Gus 802

What happens if you keep your nose clean. Generally decent person and never really violated a "10 Commandments" per se. But your an atheist. Maybe die owing about 30,000 dollars.

Heaven or hell?

I certainly don't know. Charles's quote from Romans above is not the entire picture. (No single Bible quote is the entire picture.)

The best explanation of this question I ever heard was from an Eastern Orthodox friend, who said "We know who is in the Church, but not who isn't." This means two things: First, one can identify professing Christians by their words, but not whether they are in reality what they say they are. Likewise, we cannot know but that someone who appears not to be a believer may in fact be under God's grace.

Anyone who thinks they've got this whole vexed question settled in a black-and-white, x therefore y syllogistic proposition is a bad theologian and needs to do some serious study. Getting away from the literalist reading of the Bible and dipping into the Church Fathers would be a good start.

I highly recommend this to all the self-righteous cranks out there, be they lurkers, trolls or crypto-creationists.

799 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:10:20pm

re: #791 Walter L. Newton

Sounds like Ulysses.

800 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:10:21pm

re: #754 Charles

Billy Graham once hinted that unbelievers might not be doomed to burn in hell.

Here's a Google search if you want to see how this was received in America's fundamentalist Christian community:

[Link: www.google.com...]

I think he waffled on this issue a bit.

There was a famous interview (in the '60s I think) in which he was asked if Hitler would have gone heaven if he had accepted Jesus in the moments before his death. Billy Graham said "Yes." He also said in that same interview, if I'm not mistaken, that belief in Jesus is a prerequisite for entering into Heaven.

There was a big outcry after the interview was broadcast, and (apparently) he began to backtrack a bit, being more inclusive of unbelievers -- which then sparked a counter-outcry from the more-fundamentalist Christians.

Yer gonna get it,one way or the other, when you're famous.

801 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:10:22pm

re: #788 Charles

Passive aggressive threat. Nice.

Smugness and Superiority is wafting off him in waves.

802 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:10:37pm

re: #617 Wishing

It is the Christian mindset, I am afraid.
It is either this OR that, it cannot be both/and.
Very sad, linear, closed place to be.

That's a little unfair. You're talking about a religion that has four gospels, and a secondary dustup between James and Paul in the Epistles.

Plus nowadays Christians are aware of the Mishna, Dead Sea Scrolls, the Apostolic Fathers, and even Gnostic and Sufi(!) takes on Jesus. Even Josh MacDowell (selectively) quotes this stuff (although he omits the Sufis).

At risk of getting flamed, it's the "Wahhabi branch" of Protestantism - not the Methodists, not the Anglicans, and certainly not the Holy See - that is stinking up our comment threads with submit-or-perish homilies. This "Steve" character is a particularly odious specimen; conflating "God" with "Josh MacDowell's Evidence That Demands A Verdict" and getting all upset that we retain a shred of skepticism for MacDowell's claims over those from centuries of scientific research.

803 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:10:50pm

re: #754 Charles

Billy Graham once hinted that unbelievers might not be doomed to burn in hell.

Here's a Google search if you want to see how this was received in America's fundamentalist Christian community:

[Link: www.google.com...]

It would take too long to get into it all. But most of mainstream Christianity misses the boat on all of eschatology. It's far more complicated than the simplistic view of the "Fire Insurance Gospel" sold by much of Christianity.

My views and those of those I fellowship with are not popular with mainstream Christianity.

804 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:11:32pm

re: #796 Wishing

I don't think you can separate the two.

Ehh.

My take on it is that faith gives you a workable framework to address an area until reason and science can catch up. They're complementary, but reason always should prevail in the case of doubt.

805 Mich-again  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:12:16pm

re: #796 Wishing

I don't think you can separate the two.

Abraham was just about to sacrifice his own son for G* when G* told him to spare the child. What was nuttier. Wanting to sacrifice your own child for G* in the first place or deciding not to because you heard the voice of G* tell you to stop. Faith says do it. Reason says stop.

806 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:12:22pm

re: #753 Scion9

No such thing as ex-KGB.

Not living, there isn't. Or living in hiding.

807 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:12:52pm

re: #730 LudwigVanQuixote

In Jewish tradition, we have the story that in the womb, an angel taught you all of the Law and then touched your lip creating the indentation. When that happened, the Law left your conscious mind so that you could have free will, however, it is still imprinted in you. The story goes on that your job in life is to regain, through your use of free-will that conscious level of clarity and that when you face judgment, your first accuser will be that angle asking what happened to all the knowledge it gave you.

That's beautiful.

That reminds me of Maria Montessori's ideas. She said (paraphrasing again) that we are, as infants what she called spiritual embryo's. Meaning, we are more Him than we are human. He chooses to dwarf himself so that we can become fully human. The challenge of parents and educators is not to interfere too much, but to provide an environment and mentoring conducive to the individual. To let the indivdual grown into the person He has prepared the spiritual embryo to be.

As I understood her writings, the role of the parent is not to "play god" but to assist the individual to grow as G-d intended. The Word of G-d is written on every human heart, the role of the parent/teacher is to allow the child to listen.

Gosh, I hope that made some sense.

808 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:12:53pm

re: #793 Steve

OK, so, Avraham came to his faith through reason.

Not reason, but faith.

No actually not. The first commandment of the ten is to Know God. Avraham came to God through reason. That was the first of his ten trials. Emunah, which really means trust and is what most often translated as faith came later. That was the whole point of the Akeda (the binding of Issac). Avraham's fundamental nature was one of kindness and reason. The Akeda challenged both at once. That is why it was the biggest test.

Paraphrasing what you said earlier,

If you doubt me, I will invite you to research it and point you to the Hebrew.

809 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:13:16pm

re: #804 esch

*sigh*

that should read "...in case of conflict."

810 realwest  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:13:34pm

re: #727 Charles

This intolerant, exclusionary type of religion is taught every day in this country by people like Pat Robertson, James Dobson, etc.

Well though, isn't this the problem with all religions? I mean - given free choice, all religions have to have SOMETHING with which to set themselves apart if they want to obtain followers.
So, you have Roman Catholics saying if you don't do religion our way, where the Pope speaks for God, then you'll go to Hell. And Episcopalians, for example might say if you don't do religion our way where the Pope doesn't speak for God, you'll go to Hell.
Mind y'all I'm just using Roman Catholics and Episcopalians as examples. "Religions" are NECESSARILY EXCLUSIVE or there is no reason for anyone to choose one particular religion over another.

811 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:14:15pm

re: #807 ggt

That's beautiful.

That reminds me of Maria Montessori's ideas. She said (paraphrasing again) that we are, as infants what she called spiritual embryo's. Meaning, we are more Him than we are human. He chooses to dwarf himself so that we can become fully human. The challenge of parents and educators is not to interfere too much, but to provide an environment and mentoring conducive to the individual. To let the indivdual grown into the person He has prepared the spiritual embryo to be.

As I understood her writings, the role of the parent is not to "play god" but to assist the individual to grow as G-d intended. The Word of G-d is written on every human heart, the role of the parent/teacher is to allow the child to listen.

Gosh, I hope that made some sense.

Yes it did. I am always found that tradition to be very comforting myself. Are you a fellow tribe member?

812 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:15:01pm

re: #803 jcm

It would take too long to get into it all. But most of mainstream Christianity misses the boat on all of eschatology. It's far more complicated than the simplistic view of the "Fire Insurance Gospel" sold by much of Christianity.

My views and those of those I fellowship with are not popular with mainstream Christianity.

I find myself in the same position. Ousted by mainstream Christianity, and happy to go.

813 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:15:04pm

re: #799 Cognito

Sounds like Ulysses.

And of course we come around the circle, since a character in LOST last night was reading Ulysses on the plane. And, the reason I was reading Foucault's Pendulum was because it is recommended reading for this season of LOST.

As I said some where here today, LOST is very much wrapped up in using intertexual references throughout the show, and characters and plot arcs are borrow, mixed, and shaken from centuries of literature.

Which brings us back to Ulysses...

814 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:15:08pm

re: #796 Wishing

I don't think you can separate the two.

I do. Reason, or logic, or rationality, has to do with the process by which one reaches conclusions, given one's premises; faith, or belief, has to do with one's selection of the premises themselves.

815 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:15:17pm

re: #810 realwest

Well though, isn't this the problem with all religions? I mean - given free choice, all religions have to have SOMETHING with which to set themselves apart if they want to obtain followers.
So, you have Roman Catholics saying if you don't do religion our way, where the Pope speaks for God, then you'll go to Hell. And Episcopalians, for example might say if you don't do religion our way where the Pope doesn't speak for God, you'll go to Hell.
Mind y'all I'm just using Roman Catholics and Episcopalians as examples. "Religions" are NECESSARILY EXCLUSIVE or there is no reason for anyone to choose one particular religion over another.

To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself.

Sophy Burnham

816 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:15:36pm

re: #796 Wishing

I don't think you can separate the two.

Well, sure you can, with FACT.

817 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:15:53pm

re: #798 Cato the Elder

Thanks. Or that good people are good people. I have my own personal beliefs regardless that one would call secular but don't ascribe to what one would call secular humanism for example. I probed it at one time but that was mostly for political alliances and social reasons.

My experience has been that most people that remove themselves from organized groups tend to become theists. Or people that believe in God in its basic form and follow common sense social guidelines to live their lives.

818 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:16:18pm

Steve, you there bud?

I'm genuinely curious to hear your view.

819 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:17:28pm

re: #814 Salamantis

I do. Reason, or logic, or rationality, has to do with the process by which one reaches conclusions, given one's premises; faith, or belief, has to do with one's selection of the premises themselves.

Come, let us reason together. I am pretty sure that was the Almighty speaking.

820 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:17:30pm

re: #810 realwest

Well though, isn't this the problem with all religions? I mean - given free choice, all religions have to have SOMETHING with which to set themselves apart if they want to obtain followers.
So, you have Roman Catholics saying if you don't do religion our way, where the Pope speaks for God, then you'll go to Hell. And Episcopalians, for example might say if you don't do religion our way where the Pope doesn't speak for God, you'll go to Hell.
Mind y'all I'm just using Roman Catholics and Episcopalians as examples. "Religions" are NECESSARILY EXCLUSIVE or there is no reason for anyone to choose one particular religion over another.

Speaking as a young Catholic, I don't believe that Catholicism is exclusionary. I know that many old-time religion Catholics think that's crazy talk though.

821 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:17:39pm

Pardon my fractured typing.

822 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:18:09pm

re: #774 Wishing

To answer you best, let me ask this: do you believe that Jesus was circumcised the 8th day? do you believe He kept the Feasts? did he eat kosher? If the answer to these q's is yes, I am assuming you do all these things as well, since He said Follow me.

Since I am not Jewish I do not have to do all those things.

And yes Jesus was circumcised. He kept the Feasts. As far as I know yes he did eat Kosher. Kosher did not come about until after Moses.

Oh for Pete's sake: Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that not anyone should boast;

That is it. That is the answer, any other question you have, along the same line, all have the same answer.
Read the Gospel of John and Romans.

Charles, thank you very much for your consideration and putting up with me. Sorry for the 23 verses that were the same, just from different versions/translations.

823 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:18:44pm

re: #716 Walter L. Newton

That was me. Charles saves you user name all in the same case. You can type it in as any case, his software will transform it into whatever case he stores it in the database as.

But, he uses what you typed in to display on the page itself. So

WALTER L. NEWTON is stored in the database.

I type in walter l. newton

Software uppers the case to WALTER L. NEWTON, checks name and password and...

Screen displays walter l. newton

A capital i can look like a lower case L in some fonts, so watch out. Someone could try impostering.

As sad and pathetic and dishonest that would be to do, I wouldn't put it past... aaah now who do you think I mean? :)

Nighty night everyone. Friday afternoon is just beginning for me here!

BiJ.

824 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:19:15pm

re: #785 tackle

I'm no Catholic, but there is a similar thought that everyone is given the light of Christ so they can judge right from wrong. And I think God's acceptance of us is much broader than we could imagine. Whether we subscribe to the confines of a certain religion or not, I think we'd be judged rather generously. Hell, the way things are now He'll take what He can get.

LOL

825 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:19:27pm

re: #798 Cato the Elder

The best explanation of this question I ever heard was from an Eastern Orthodox friend, who said "We know who is in the Church, but not who isn't." This means two things: First, one can identify professing Christians by their words, but not whether they are in reality what they say they are. Likewise, we cannot know but that someone who appears not to be a believer may in fact be under God's grace.

I understand that certain of the Sufis say the same. (Not sure about Ghazali the Incoherent.)

Catholics say: there IS a hell, so we are banned from saying categorically that such-and-such is in it. That implies to me, that reading Dante would be a sin; we're better off with Milton! But it also implies that we're not qualified to say that, say, King Edward VI Tudor is in Hell for being a Protestant, or Albert Einstein for being a kinda/sorta spiritual Jew, or etc.

Getting away from the literalist reading of the Bible and dipping into the Church Fathers would be a good start.

I personally am fond of the Shepherd of Hermas. It says of fasting, not to starve oneself, but to eat cheaply - giving the money saved to feed the poor.

826 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:19:41pm

re: #802 Zimriel

That's a little unfair. You're talking about a religion that has four gospels, and a secondary dustup between James and Paul in the Epistles.

Plus nowadays Christians are aware of the Mishna, Dead Sea Scrolls, the Apostolic Fathers, and even Gnostic and Sufi(!) takes on Jesus. Even Josh MacDowell (selectively) quotes this stuff (although he omits the Sufis).

At risk of getting flamed, it's the "Wahhabi branch" of Protestantism - not the Methodists, not the Anglicans, and certainly not the Holy See - that is stinking up our comment threads with submit-or-perish homilies. This "Steve" character is a particularly odious specimen; conflating "God" with "Josh MacDowell's Evidence That Demands A Verdict" and getting all upset that we retain a shred of skepticism for MacDowell's claims over those from centuries of scientific research.

Your point is well made though I would suggest the "Wahhabi" reference be removed. The Robertson / Falwell crowd isn't tolerant, but they are not murderous, while in many ways Wahabbism is.

827 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:19:44pm

re: #820 Hengineer

Speaking as a young Catholic, I don't believe that Catholicism is exclusionary. I know that many old-time religion Catholics think that's crazy talk though.

If you don't think Catholicism is exclusionary, just try to receive Communion as a Protestant.

828 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:19:53pm

re: #818 Cognito

Steve, you there bud?

I'm genuinely curious to hear your view.

Yes I am here , just getting answers to other questions.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that not anyone should boast;

829 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:20:05pm

re: #819 Wishing

Come, let us reason together. I am pretty sure that was the Almighty speaking.

Well, the quote was attributed to God by an ancient human author.

830 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:20:19pm

re: #822 Steve

Steve, hear me out. The question I'm asking is this: Accepting fully that salvation comes through Christ (and I do), is it still possible, however, that the saved might not know Christ by name?

831 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:20:24pm

re: #822 Steve

Since I am not Jewish I do not have to do all those things.

And yes Jesus was circumcised. He kept the Feasts. As far as I know yes he did eat Kosher. Kosher did not come about until after Moses.

Seems to me that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean. And he only ate clean. (If he ate the unclean, he would have wiped out the entire population!)

832 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:20:51pm

re: #791 Walter L. Newton

In my opinion, unless you know 4 languages and can translate them in your head just by hearing them, and you have a full understanding of certain esoteric European history (and just a general knowledge of Europe), listening to that book would be very difficult.

I had to look up things as I went along, and I have sort of a good armchair education in arcana.

True, but the narrators have all been excellent.

833 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:21:08pm

re: #827 rawmuse

If you don't think Catholicism is exclusionary, just try to receive Communion as a Protestant.

Good point, but as a person, I don't believe Episcopalians just because they arne't Catholic, are going to hell. As long as they're a good person, have accepted Christ as their Lord, and lived a good Christian life (yes including works), then they're going to heaven.

834 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:21:57pm

re: #822 Steve

Do not proselytize at LGF.

835 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:22:12pm

re: #792 Cognito

Well. All right.

There is another possibility; it's that the animosity is all one-way, and I'm ready at the drop of a hat (or word puzzle) to move on to funner-er pastures.

Alright, fair enough. Perhaps I was too presumptuous in my presumptions about your presumption that I-

Dammit. Lost my place. Hang on...


Reminds me of a college journalism professor, a Sri Lankan, who always told us, "You must all the time be speaking in active voice."

The irony was lost on all but me.

Alright. You just didn't get the irony. I'll believe that if you do.

836 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:22:18pm

Land (safe version)

Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, baby!

/and yes, she really has a little sister named Kimberly

837 zombie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:22:38pm

re: #822 Steve

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that not anyone should boast;

That is it. That is the answer, any other question you have, along the same line, all have the same answer.

So, yes, what you are saying is what centuries of traditionalists have said:

Salvation (and hence admission into Heaven) comes from faith (i.e. in God/Jesus), and not through "works" (i.e. being a good person).

Translation: Good-hearted pagans are going to hell.

838 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:22:57pm

re: #802 Zimriel

That's a little unfair. You're talking about a religion that has four gospels, and a secondary dustup between James and Paul in the Epistles.

Plus nowadays Christians are aware of the Mishna, Dead Sea Scrolls, the Apostolic Fathers, and even Gnostic and Sufi(!) takes on Jesus. Even Josh MacDowell (selectively) quotes this stuff (although he omits the Sufis).

At risk of getting flamed, it's the "Wahhabi branch" of Protestantism - not the Methodists, not the Anglicans, and certainly not the Holy See - that is stinking up our comment threads with submit-or-perish homilies. This "Steve" character is a particularly odious specimen; conflating "God" with "Josh MacDowell's Evidence That Demands A Verdict" and getting all upset that we retain a shred of skepticism for MacDowell's claims over those from centuries of scientific research.

The Theocrats are bad news whatever their flavor.

839 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:22:58pm

re: #796 Wishing

I don't think you can separate the two.

Actually you can easily. Here is an example.

I can reason that the Pythagorean Theorem must be true. I can reason that Evolution is true. I can prove these things.

I have perfect faith that my mother loves me. I can not prove it. Maybe she just changed her mind...

I have faith that there is a God. He has not yet given me my own burning bush to prove it.

I can reason via a reducto that polytheism should lead to monotheism. I need faith to believe it.

840 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:22:59pm

re: #834 Charles

In fairness, Charles, we've been asking him for his definition of salvation. He was simply trying to answer, I think.

841 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:23:47pm

re: #830 Cognito

Steve, hear me out. The question I'm asking is this: Accepting fully that salvation comes through Christ (and I do), is it still possible, however, that the saved might not know Christ by name?

Can you email me so we can continue this between us? Not that I have a problem with answering you here but I am trying to respect Charles and not irriate him.

842 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:23:52pm

re: #832 ggt

True, but the narrators have all been excellent.

I'm confused by your comment. Do you mean they translate things, or explain things, or were you just commenting on the quality of the readers.

843 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:24:13pm

re: #837 zombie

So, yes, what you are saying is what centuries of traditionalists have said:

Salvation (and hence admission into Heaven) comes from faith (i.e. in God/Jesus), and not through "works" (i.e. being a good person).

Translation: Good-hearted pagans are going to hell.

Hence why I dislike those who take a literal translation of the Bible, for those who would find a passage like that I will find 2 passages that contradict it (for example, where Jesus said that which you do to the poorest of the poor, you do to me).

The Text of the Bible is full of passages that contradict other passages: inspired by God, written by man.

844 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:25:02pm

re: #810 realwest

Well though, isn't this the problem with all religions? I mean - given free choice, all religions have to have SOMETHING with which to set themselves apart if they want to obtain followers.
So, you have Roman Catholics saying if you don't do religion our way, where the Pope speaks for God, then you'll go to Hell. And Episcopalians, for example might say if you don't do religion our way where the Pope doesn't speak for God, you'll go to Hell.
Mind y'all I'm just using Roman Catholics and Episcopalians as examples. "Religions" are NECESSARILY EXCLUSIVE or there is no reason for anyone to choose one particular religion over another.

I went to Catholic school and I wasn't taught that the "Pope speaks for G-d". I learned that he is the leader of the Church on Earth.

845 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:25:15pm

re: #834 Charles

Do not proselytize at LGF.

I am not trying to proselytize in all honesty just trying to answer questions the best way that I can.

846 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:25:56pm

re: #811 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes it did. I am always found that tradition to be very comforting myself. Are you a fellow tribe member?

No, but I have good friends who swear I am. :)

847 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:26:11pm

re: #812 Wishing

I find myself in the same position. Ousted by mainstream Christianity, and happy to go.

I grew up in mainstream Christianity and rejected it. I then did some serious reading and study and came to a few conclusions. After a period of time found a group that was in a similar position.

It's odd in a way, I take the Bible very fundamentally, but it's a spiritual journey. Everything flows out from that. I don't expect the same thing from someone who isn't at the same place in a spiritual sense. It's useless to demand certain behaviors that don't come from a spiritual realization.

Each individual has to make the journey on their own. It cannot be demanded.

Mainstream Christianity fails horrible in this. They demand certain behaviors without the individual making the spiritual journey to the point where that behavior will be a result.

848 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:26:44pm

There are some pretty good programs on PBS right now about DNA mapping, ancestry, race and politics.

849 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:26:45pm

re: #827 rawmuse

No problem.
1) Stand in line
2)Eat cookie
3)drink wine
4) sit yer ass back down

It's so easy an atheist can do it.

850 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:27:08pm

re: #844 ggt

I went to Catholic school and I wasn't taught that the "Pope speaks for G-d". I learned that he is the leader of the Church on Earth.

Heh, speaking as someone who went to a Catholic High School, and have read a few books on theology (and taken high school theology classes), I do believe the Pope technically "speaks" for God, in that he is the leader of the Church in the way Peter was selected to speak for Jesus after he was crucified and resurrected to be in heaven.

851 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:27:09pm

Steve...check Genesis 7 when you leave tonight. Even Noah understood about *kosher*.
Then read Acts 15: Christians are supposed to.

852 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:27:12pm

re: #813 Walter L. Newton

And of course we come around the circle, since a character in LOST last night was reading Ulysses on the plane. And, the reason I was reading Foucault's Pendulum was because it is recommended reading for this season of LOST.

As I said some where here today, LOST is very much wrapped up in using intertexual references throughout the show, and characters and plot arcs are borrow, mixed, and shaken from centuries of literature.

Which brings us back to Ulysses...

I have Ulysses in book form and am too intimidated to open it.

:0

853 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:27:33pm

re: #699 lostlakehiker

There is no scientific case for the claim that evolution precludes the existence of God. Anyone teaching that has stepped outside his mandate to teach science, and gone off the deep end into teaching his own personal philosophy as if it were the "God-given" truth.

Agreed.

We see that all the time in classes on history, political "science", etc., from the left. It's noxious. And guess what: we science types hate it when blowhards drag the good name of science through the dirt like that.


Again, agreed.

So rest easy. Nobody's going to have a career teaching atheism while pretending that it's science. His students will complain, their test scores will reflect his inattention to duty and his habit of wasting their time, and he'll be gone.

Is that really what you're worried about?


Honestly, yes, really. There are so many bad school districts, bad teachers, that yes, I am concerned about that. While I do think the vast majority of teachers are good and honorable, there are enough bad ones to cause great concern.


Or do you just want evolution not taught, because if it is, and you've been teaching that evolution and God are contradictory, young peoples' faith may waver? The history of insisting that fallible human exegesis trumps any sort of evidence from the real world is a sorry one, and it certainly hasn't bolstered the faithful in their faith. Not in the long run. Error is error, and stubborn error is pride as well as error.

No, really, that is not it. I am a Christian and an engineer. I have no issues whatsoever with God and science (evolution) being compatible. That's why I quoted what I did from the website. That's what I teach my kids.

A big problem, though, as I see it, is one of perception. Christians have a perception about things, and there is also a counter-perception that their concerns are completely unfounded. I think that both can be valid, and I am honestly looking for a middle ground solution to this issue.

So, let me throw this thought out there and see if it resonates:

Science class is for the teaching of the Scientific Method and the discoveries that are made using that method. Instructors are not to teach personal beliefs as science.

That kind of statement, adopted by school boards, would work for me quite well, although it may need some wordsmithing. I think it would also work quite well for people who didn't have a hidden agenda.

854 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:27:42pm

re: #662 ggt

I thought there were some 400+ laws --Christians paired them down to only 1 --the Golden Rule.

Jewish Lizards, help me out here.

geesh, I need a lot of help tonite.

:)

There are 613 mitzvot, but a lot of them don't currently apply, due to circumstances beyond our control.

855 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:27:45pm

re: #835 Noam Sayin'

Alright. You just didn't get the irony. I'll believe that if you do.

No I got the irony. But in my sleepiness I just flubbed "the irony was lost on all but me."

I may be continuing the flub. I'm too tired to tell.

So on that note, barring something explanatory from Steve, I'll see you guys on the sunny side.

856 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:28:15pm

re: #847 jcm

...Mainstream Christianity fails horrible in this. They demand certain behaviors without the individual making the spiritual journey to the point where that behavior will be a result.

Agree, but...

I would expand and simplify your remark. Religion fails horribly in this. End of story.

857 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:28:30pm

Good night.

858 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:28:45pm

re: #820 Hengineer

Speaking as a young Catholic, I don't believe that Catholicism is exclusionary. I know that many old-time religion Catholics think that's crazy talk though.

I was educated after Vatican II and I feel as you do.

859 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:28:46pm

re: #839 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually you can easily. Here is an example.
...I can reason via a reducto that polytheism should lead to monotheism. I need faith to believe it.

Actually the fossil record, if taken into consideration with intelligent design, is evidence for polytheism over monotheism. Intelligent design as Greek philosophy argued it, is the mechanism by which creatures change form. So you'd need several gods each tweaking their creation in order to compete with the other gods' toys.

If I were a creationist (which I'm not) as well as a monotheist (which I am), my head would be exploding about now.

860 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:28:53pm

re: #852 ggt

I have Ulysses in book form and am too intimidated to open it.

:0

Ulysses S Grant?...:)


/S

861 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:29:08pm

re: #847 jcm

Exactly what I stated earlier in this thread. Basically, you are asked to just accept what is taught with no critical thinking to go hand in hand with that.
And I will also agree that each one must come on their own, cannot be forced.

862 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:29:08pm

re: #820 Hengineer

Speaking as a young Catholic, I don't believe that Catholicism is exclusionary. I know that many old-time religion Catholics think that's crazy talk though.

Sure they do. But many "cradle Catholics" couldn't think themselves out of a wet theological bag.

Catholicism of the purely restrictive "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" variety is no longer valid teaching.

863 realwest  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:29:11pm

re: #772 Charles
I went to that link and clicked on the "About Me" section and, among other things I found this

Are you a Christian Fundamentalist?
It depends on how you define a Christian Fundamentalist. If you think of a Christian Fundamentalist as someone who refer to (or even exploits) doctrines of Christianity to benefit their political or social agendas, then I am definitely NOT that kind of Christian Fundamentalists. If you think of a Christian Fundamentalist as someone who holds on fundamental doctrines of Christianity for the sake of God and rejects all perversions created by the devil, then you can call me a Christian Fundamentalist.

Of course, he later goes on to say he is currently pursuing a BS degree in Chemical Engineering and intends to study Theology with the aim of getting a degree in Theology.
I'll bet the Disco Institute is scouting this person out as a future draft pick!

864 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:29:19pm

re: #852 ggt

It's really not that good. read the Cliff Notes and understand why people think it's so fantastic. No need to really read the whole thing.

865 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:29:49pm

What's sad is the attitude of some people still out there. There are some hardcore Christians I work with and they are firm believers in Creationism.

They straight up asked me if I believed I was descended from an ape or a monkey.

You just can't answer them in a way that will ever satisfy them.

866 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:30:19pm

re: #837 zombie

So, yes, what you are saying is what centuries of traditionalists have said:

Salvation (and hence admission into Heaven) comes from faith (i.e. in God/Jesus), and not through "works" (i.e. being a good person).

Translation: Good-hearted pagans are going to hell.

Not so.

Salvation comes through grace, unearned. Consistently in the Bible we're admonished that Christ will one day bear witness before his Father that he 'knows' us or doesn't.

Matter of fact in the parable of the sheep and goats, many 'goats' call him Lord, but he answers, 'I never knew you.'

That's sobering for Christians. And it leaves open the possibility, I believe, that Christ can know us without us knowing him.

867 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:30:21pm

re: #827 rawmuse

If you don't think Catholicism is exclusionary, just try to receive Communion as a Protestant.

I've been to Protestant Churches in which I could not receive Communion.

868 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:30:49pm

re: #859 Zimriel

Actually the fossil record, if taken into consideration with intelligent design, is evidence for polytheism over monotheism. Intelligent design as Greek philosophy argued it, is the mechanism by which creatures change form. So you'd need several gods each tweaking their creation in order to compete with the other gods' toys.

If I were a creationist (which I'm not) as well as a monotheist (which I am), my head would be exploding about now.

Ohhh I see where you are going with that.... that is cruel! In the good way....

869 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:31:16pm

re: #853 Fried Spam

So, let me throw this thought out there and see if it resonates:

Science class is for the teaching of the Scientific Method and the discoveries that are made using that method. Instructors are not to teach personal beliefs as science.

That kind of statement, adopted by school boards, would work for me quite well, although it may need some wordsmithing. I think it would also work quite well for people who didn't have a hidden agenda.

I'd be opposed to any such language, because it's not necessary, and because it opens the door to abuse by people with agendas.

The idea that science teachers are indoctrinating children into atheism is a complete canard, promoted by fundamentalist groups to whip up the faithful against the 'godless athestic evolutionists.'

It's simply not happening. There is no need for any disclaimers.

870 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:31:25pm

re: #847 jcm

Mainstream Christianity fails horrible in this. They demand certain behaviors without the individual making the spiritual journey to the point where that behavior will be a result.

I agree with that. What I have a problem with is Christians that are legalistic and can never see past that. i.e. single pregnant woman in church needs to be asked to leave because she is in sin.

The way I see it is that there is no better place for her to be and she needs love and support from me. and others. We actually have two in our church at this time. One has admitted that she made a mistake and is changing the other has not.

871 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:31:38pm

re: #860 Dustyvet

Ulysses S Grant?...:)

/S

Dusty, Grants book was on the shelves when you were just a young soldier. We are talking about James Joyces Ulysses. LOL.

872 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:32:47pm

re: #867 ggt

I've been to Protestant Churches in which I could not receive Communion.

Christianity is a study of constant fragmentation, almost from the day of the Resurrection to the present.

873 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:32:57pm

Nine hate mails so far.

874 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:32:58pm

re: #786 Salamantis

Sorry; they'd have to promote atheism INSIDE the classroom.

Agreed; that's what I had in mind when I wrote what I did, although it may have not been written well. The public expression of what they are teaching in the classroom is what needs to be found, from reputable sources.

875 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:33:08pm

re: #871 Walter L. Newton

Dusty, Grants book was on the shelves when you were just a young soldier. We are talking about James Joyces Ulysses. LOL.

I know that...:)

876 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:33:12pm

re: #862 Cato the Elder

Sure they do. But many "cradle Catholics" couldn't think themselves out of a wet theological bag.

Catholicism of the purely restrictive "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" variety is no longer valid teaching.

True, I'm of a lucky sort whose had a very interesting theological and philisophical background with the reading I've done and high school classes I've had. Heck, I had a Jesuit priest teach classes at my Catholic High school and I still came out with a deeper understanding of my faith.

Too many really don't know their faith and only know the dogmatic version of it where they do the sit--kneel-sit-stand-kneel-sit dance in church and that's all they know.

877 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:33:25pm

re: #842 Walter L. Newton

I'm confused by your comment. Do you mean they translate things, or explain things, or were you just commenting on the quality of the readers.

The quality of the readers ( most are professional stage actors). I don't think I could get thru a lot of books without them. A lot can conveyed thru good narration that cannot be gained by reading. Especially when the reading material is a bit above the reader's pay grade.

:)

878 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:33:44pm

re: #873 Charles

Nine hate mails so far.

Why oh why did I originally read that as Nine Inch Nails?

OT

879 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:34:02pm

re: #865 Hengineer

What's sad is the attitude of some people still out there. There are some hardcore Christians I work with and they are firm believers in Creationism.

They straight up asked me if I believed I was descended from an ape or a monkey.

You just can't answer them in a way that will ever satisfy them.

Why would you try to? Answer them honest and let it be. If they can't handle it, it's their dishonesty that is showing, not yours.

880 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:34:03pm

868 Ludwig: Empedocles is the one who expounded that doctrine the clearest. ;^)

881 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:34:07pm

re: #872 rawmuse

Christianity is a study of constant fragmentation, almost from the day of the Resurrection to the present.

Mm. Some would say the Reformation was just that. A return to form.

882 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:34:29pm

re: #875 Dustyvet

I know that...:)

So do I. Young'un

883 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:34:31pm

How can I make my name blue...?

884 Cognito  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:34:47pm

Aw, heck. It's past my bedtime.

Later gators.

885 Abu Bin Squid  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:34:48pm

re: #856 Walter L. Newton


Was I mistaken, or did you not say goodnight?

Goodnight.

886 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:35:07pm

re: #883 Dustyvet

right above where you type your comments is a place for your email

887 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:35:09pm

re: #879 Walter L. Newton

Why would you try to? Answer them honest and let it be. If they can't handle it, it's their dishonesty that is showing, not yours.

What's weird is that they're both Black, both voted for Obama. However only one of them is a hardcore Democrat, the other is more of a slightly liberal independent.

888 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:35:26pm

This might get some more emails:

The Sisters of Mercy -- Lucretia, My Reflection

889 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:35:40pm

re: #856 Walter L. Newton

Agree, but...

I would expand and simplify your remark. Religion fails horribly in this. End of story.

I define Religion as man attempting to do something for God.

That's pretty arrogant on our part.

I have a spiritual relationship with God. That's about it.

890 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:35:48pm

re: #873 Charles

Nine hate mails so far.

Could you perhaps do a special edition of the most ummm *impressive* mails. Not only would it be entertaining, but it would be good politic to show the other side when the mask is off.

891 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:35:51pm

re: #881 Cognito

Mm. Some would say the Reformation was just that. A return to form.

I thought the first Great Schism was the original return to form, when the Orthodox churches split....

892 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:36:22pm

re: #888 Gus 802

This might get some more emails:

The Sisters of Mercy -- Lucretia, My Reflection


[Video]

OK, I bloody well love the Sisters... Dance the ghost with me....

893 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:36:34pm

re: #885 Abu Bin Squid

Was I mistaken, or did you not say goodnight?

Goodnight.

I haven't said goodnight on this thread or any other.

894 Erik The Red  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:36:38pm

re: #883 Dustyvet

How can I make my name blue...?

Write a comment and tick the show email button.

895 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:36:42pm

re: #805 Mich-again

Abraham was just about to sacrifice his own son for G* when G* told him to spare the child. What was nuttier. Wanting to sacrifice your own child for G* in the first place or deciding not to because you heard the voice of G* tell you to stop. Faith says do it. Reason says stop.

It's been suggested that Avraham failed the test.

I hate that text. I really, really, hate that text.

896 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:36:42pm

re: #886 Wishing

right above where you type your comments is a place for your email

Doh!...Thank you...going to corner for dunce hat...:)

897 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:36:47pm

re: #850 Hengineer

Heh, speaking as someone who went to a Catholic High School, and have read a few books on theology (and taken high school theology classes), I do believe the Pope technically "speaks" for God, in that he is the leader of the Church in the way Peter was selected to speak for Jesus after he was crucified and resurrected to be in heaven.

I think we are one the same page. What RW was describing, or what I hear from a lot of non-Catholics is that the Pope actually speaks for G-d. Meaning that he is the only source on Earth for G-d's word. I don't know if they believe he goes into a trance and does it seance style or what.

I wasn't taught that.

898 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:37:07pm

re: #891 Hengineer

I thought the first Great Schism was the original return to form, when the Orthodox churches split....

I think the first major *schism* was in the earl 300CE era: see Council of Nicea.

899 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:37:18pm

re: #881 Cognito

Mm. Some would say the Reformation was just that. A return to form.

Yes, been reading on that whole period of English history. What a mess. Henry VIII had something like 72,ooo people put to death, followed by Queen Mary ("Bloody Mary") who preferred the flaming stake. The human political machinations were tumultuous, to say the least.

900 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:37:20pm

re: #878 Hengineer

Why oh why did I originally read that as Nine Inch Nails?

OT

Oddly, you're not the only one. Now, I'm gonna burn for linking this.

901 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:37:30pm

re: #892 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, I bloody well love the Sisters... Dance the ghost with me....

Classic band IMO. And I was just listening to George Jones.

902 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:37:31pm

A valid religion is always voluntary, never compulsive.

/Killian Bundy

903 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:37:34pm

re: #889 jcm

I define Religion as man attempting to do something for God. That's pretty arrogant on our part. I have a spiritual relationship with God. That's about it.

Well, I agree with you, but for a different reason.

904 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:37:42pm

re: #851 Wishing

Steve...check Genesis 7 when you leave tonight. Even Noah understood about *kosher*.
Then read Acts 15: Christians are supposed to.

I am not Jewish. I do not have to do any of that. I can eat anything I want, anytime I want.

Just say clean and unclean animals.

Acts 11: 7-11

email me Wishing. Please!

Good night to all, I have a job interview tomorrow and need my beauty/ugly sleep.

905 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:37:55pm

re: #898 Wishing

I think the first major *schism* was in the earl 300CE era: see Council of Nicea.

early
PIMF

906 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:38:17pm

re: #870 Steve

Mainstream Christianity fails horrible in this. They demand certain behaviors without the individual making the spiritual journey to the point where that behavior will be a result.

I agree with that. What I have a problem with is Christians that are legalistic and can never see past that. i.e. single pregnant woman in church needs to be asked to leave because she is in sin.

The way I see it is that there is no better place for her to be and she needs love and support from me. and others. We actually have two in our church at this time. One has admitted that she made a mistake and is changing the other has not.

I am glad to hear you say that. Whatever else you are, you are here showing yourself to be decent and honorable. You, sir, most definitely have a place here.

907 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:38:58pm

re: #862 Cato the Elder

Sure they do. But many "cradle Catholics" couldn't think themselves out of a wet theological bag. "

ROTFLMAO. I know a few of those.

908 Steve  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:38:58pm

re: #873 Charles

Nine hate mails so far.

I wish that I could apologize for those Charles but some people have no clue to what they are saying to you.

Thanks and Good night.

909 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:39:15pm

re: #904 Steve

I am not Jewish. I do not have to do any of that. I can eat anything I want, anytime I want.

Just say clean and unclean animals.

Acts 11: 7-11

email me Wishing. Please!

Good night to all, I have a job interview tomorrow and need my beauty/ugly sleep.

I would love to email you, but click on my BLUE nick to email me (you do not have email showing)

910 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:39:35pm

re: #864 Killgore Trout

It's really not that good. read the Cliff Notes and understand why people think it's so fantastic. No need to really read the whole thing.

whew! thanks.

911 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:39:38pm

re: #853 Fried Spam

A big problem, though, as I see it, is one of perception. Christians have a perception about things, and there is also a counter-perception that their concerns are completely unfounded. I think that both can be valid, and I am honestly looking for a middle ground solution to this issue.

re: #869 Charles


The idea that science teachers are indoctrinating children into atheism is a complete canard, promoted by fundamentalist groups to whip up the faithful against the 'godless athestic evolutionists.'

It's simply not happening. There is no need for any disclaimers.

What that says to me is that your perception is that some people's concerns are completely unfounded and that there is no middle ground possible.

That attitude hasn't exactly stopped these academic freedom bills from popping up.

912 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:39:42pm

re: #898 Wishing

I think the first major *schism* was in the earl 300CE era: see Council of Nicea.

The first was when Paul started treating the "teachings" of Jesus like an extension of Greek thought, instead of a "sect" of Judaism.

913 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:39:57pm

re: #870 Steve

Mainstream Christianity fails horrible in this. They demand certain behaviors without the individual making the spiritual journey to the point where that behavior will be a result.

I agree with that. What I have a problem with is Christians that are legalistic and can never see past that. i.e. single pregnant woman in church needs to be asked to leave because she is in sin.

The way I see it is that there is no better place for her to be and she needs love and support from me. and others. We actually have two in our church at this time. One has admitted that she made a mistake and is changing the other has not.

We have all kinds, I've sat next to active drug users in our meetings. They weren't at a place to kick the habit yet. My wife and had a women like you describe live with us till she got on her feet. We've had unmarried couples, and who knows what else. It's about nurturing more than anything else.

If they don't change, they tend to move on of their own accord.

914 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:39:57pm

Well, trolls and lurkers, crypto-creationists, rationalists, theists, Deists, Catholics, Protestants, lizards in good standing, lizards teetering on the edge, lizard meat, and everyone else - except $cientologists - this old Roman wishes you all bonam noctem et optimam sabbatam.

915 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:40:00pm

re: #909 Wishing

I would love to email you, but click on my BLUE nick to email me (you do not have email showing)

And good luck with the interview!

916 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:40:09pm

re: #884 Cognito

Aw, heck. It's past my bedtime.

Later gators.

Night, Cog. It was good having you around today, you made LGF a more fun place with your wit and language skills.

917 realwest  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:40:35pm

#844 ggt That's not what I was taught!
Course, I'm a Protestant so that might account for it!

918 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:40:50pm

For an interesting theological and philisophical read:

The Last Question

A short story written by a great man, Isaac Asimov, was used as a precurser to an essay question by the very same Jesuit Priest who taught me World Religions as a Junior (I think the other half of the class was Church History, but its been a while so I don't remember). He read that story out loud and posed this question:

"Did God create man or did Man create god?"

Read that story and just ponder that question for a bit.

919 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:41:03pm

re: #912 Walter L. Newton

The first was when Paul started treating the "teachings" of Jesus like an extension of Greek thought, instead of a "sect" of Judaism.

Well, I think Paul taught just as the Messiah did.

920 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:41:36pm

re: #911 Fried Spam

What that says to me is that your perception is that some people's concerns are completely unfounded and that there is no middle ground possible.

That attitude hasn't exactly stopped these academic freedom bills from popping up.

Those concerns are completely unfounded. This issue is being falsely exploited by people with bad motives.

It's not my attitude that's causing the 'academic freedom' bills to pop up. They come from exactly the same people who are putting out the lie that children are being 'taught atheism' in public schools.

921 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:41:58pm

re: #914 Cato the Elder

Well, trolls and lurkers, crypto-creationists, rationalists, theists, Deists, Catholics, Protestants, lizards in good standing, lizards teetering on the edge, lizard meat, and everyone else - except $cientologists - this old Roman wishes you all bonam noctem et optimam sabbatam.

funny. night.

922 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:42:25pm

re: #912 Walter L. Newton

The first was when Paul started treating the "teachings" of Jesus like an extension of Greek thought, instead of a "sect" of Judaism.

And then came back and they held a council on that very notion.

923 rawmuse  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:42:30pm

re: #912 Walter L. Newton

The first was when Paul started treating the "teachings" of Jesus like an extension of Greek thought, instead of a "sect" of Judaism.

Agreed. After the crucifixion, the disciples were about as despondent as could be. Their leader had been executed in the most humiliating fashion. They were hunted, some denied Him, one killed himself.

924 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:43:38pm

re: #919 Wishing

Well, I think Paul taught just as the Messiah did.

I've heard good arguments that Messianic Jews are the true extension of the early Church.

925 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:44:01pm

Kitchens of Distinction - Drive That Fast

926 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:44:09pm

re: #917 realwest

#844 ggt That's not what I was taught!
Course, I'm a Protestant so that might account for it!

How are you tonite RW?

927 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:44:16pm

Well there certainly has been a resurgence not seen since those times.

928 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:44:40pm

re: #853 Fried Spam

A big problem, though, as I see it, is one of perception. Christians have a perception about things, and there is also a counter-perception that their concerns are completely unfounded. I think that both can be valid, and I am honestly looking for a middle ground solution to this issue.

So, let me throw this thought out there and see if it resonates:

Science class is for the teaching of the Scientific Method and the discoveries that are made using that method. Instructors are not to teach personal beliefs as science.

That kind of statement, adopted by school boards, would work for me quite well, although it may need some wordsmithing. I think it would also work quite well for people who didn't have a hidden agenda.

Finally a post of yours that I can upding!

I would, however add "and accepted scientific theories, and the emprical evidence for these theories" at the end of it. Otherwise, it might be a backdoor way to exclude evolution by claiming that it was a theory, not a method or discovery.

929 realwest  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:45:29pm

Well good night y'all - I gotta get some sleep. I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to speak with you all down the road.

Good night, all.

930 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:45:46pm

re: #929 realwest

Well good night y'all - I gotta get some sleep. I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to speak with you all down the road.

Good night, all.

Sleep well, real!

931 Abu Bin Squid  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:45:50pm

re: #893 Walter L. Newton
Sir, I stand corrected. Please accept my apology.
/wishful thinking

932 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:46:14pm

re: #897 ggt

I think we are one the same page. What RW was describing, or what I hear from a lot of non-Catholics is that the Pope actually speaks for G-d. Meaning that he is the only source on Earth for G-d's word. I don't know if they believe he goes into a trance and does it seance style or what.

I wasn't taught that.

That's nonsense. (Not you, the comment you've already derided.) Otherwise there would be no such thing as a visionary saint, and there are plenty of those in Catholic tradition, male and female.

Mind you we typically only find out whether the saints are actual saints, posthumously...

The Pope does have "infallibility" but that is something he invokes specifically. And it's not like he says "today I'm having tuna fish for lunch!" which then becomes a holy commandment.

933 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:46:27pm

re: #929 realwest

Hasta luego.

And Cato.

934 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:46:42pm

re: #919 Wishing

Well, I think Paul taught just as the Messiah did.

Really. If that was so, christians would be celebrating Passover. Please, Paul actually quoted greek thinkers in his writings. And he "changed" the community of believers practices in ways that Jesus never addressed in his preaching.

935 wolfie  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:46:47pm

re: #871 Walter L. Newton

I thought you were talking about a Latin translation of The Odyssey......(which was on the shelves when I was a young hippie.)

936 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:47:13pm

re: #934 Walter L. Newton

Really. If that was so, christians would be celebrating Passover. Please, Paul actually quoted greek thinkers in his writings. And he "changed" the community of believers practices in ways that Jesus never addressed in his preaching.

Jesus was Jewish.

/ducks

937 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:47:37pm

Night all! Weariness has sapped my wit, I must sleep.

938 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:47:38pm

re: #934 Walter L. Newton

Really. If that was so, christians would be celebrating Passover. Please, Paul actually quoted greek thinkers in his writings. And he "changed" the community of believers practices in ways that Jesus never addressed in his preaching.

It is Paul who instructs Christians to keep Pesach. So did Messiah. Christians don't listen to either of them.

939 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:47:45pm

re: #922 Hengineer

And then came back and they held a council on that very notion.

And greek notions won. And Jesus' teaches be damned. That was the first schism.

940 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:48:05pm

re: #936 Hengineer

Jesus was is Jewish.

/ducks

941 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:48:43pm

re: #940 Wishing

Jesus was is Jewishrisen.

/ducks

=-P

942 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:49:23pm

re: #931 Abu Bin Squid

Sir, I stand corrected. Please accept my apology.
/wishful thinking

Sorry jerk wad, if that's what you were "wishing" well, too bad, Go shit on yourself for a few hours and get back to us.

(and if any other Lizards thinks I'm being an asshole, follow the links up thread)

943 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:49:29pm

re: #935 wolfie

I thought you were talking about a Latin translation of The Odyssey......

Translated to make it accessible to the common man, I assume?

944 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:49:35pm

re: #941 Hengineer

/ducks

*quacks*

945 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:49:42pm

re: #895 SanFranciscoZionist

It's been suggested that Avraham failed the test.

I hate that text. I really, really, hate that text.

Honestly it is one of the things that I find most difficult in the Tradition as well.

946 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:49:51pm

re: #932 Zimriel

That's nonsense. (Not you, the comment you've already derided.) Otherwise there would be no such thing as a visionary saint, and there are plenty of those in Catholic tradition, male and female.

Mind you we typically only find out whether the saints are actual saints, posthumously...

The Pope does have "infallibility" but that is something he invokes specifically. And it's not like he says "today I'm having tuna fish for lunch!" which then becomes a holy commandment.

Thanks, but I wasn't deriding realwest. I was trying to clarify.

I WOULD NEVER deride realwest.

:)

947 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:50:05pm

/Obama come true

948 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:50:13pm

re: #941 Hengineer

=-P

He is still Jewish. No amount of scratching out changes that.
=)

949 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:51:03pm

re: #948 Wishing

Scratching?

950 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:51:27pm

Good night all. Great thread tonight.

951 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:51:28pm

re: #948 Wishing

He is still Jewish. No amount of scratching out changes that.
=)

Jesus the man was Jewish, yes, but Jesus the Lord is above all that racial and cultural stuff.

952 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:51:41pm

OT:

COURT OF HUMAN WRONGS

A ruling that Britain must pay £23,000 to nine terror suspects including Abu Qatada was yesterday condemned as "disgusting".

The European Court of Human Rights awarded Qatada - described as Osama bin Laden's right hand man in Europe-£2,500.

It ruled that UK detention without trial after 9/11 breached human rights.

The nine foreigners were also awarded £53,000 costs.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: "This will horrify most reasonable people. It makes a mockery of the concept of human rights."

Matthew Elliott of the TaxPayers' Alliance, said of Qatada: "This man hates everything Britain stands for so it is disgusting ordinary taxpayers are now forced to give him thousands. We should have slung him out years ago."

How long before we see this happen in the States?

953 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:51:42pm

re: #949 Gus 802

Scratching?

strikethrough

954 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:51:53pm

re: #950 Wishing

Good night all. Great thread tonight.

Night!

955 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:52:10pm

re: #953 Hengineer

Ah. OK

956 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:52:17pm

I can't wait 'til the Dishonesty Institute gets their way, and we can start shoving religion into science class. Their gonna be pissed when my minions push their wimpy religion aside and start teaching the Glory of my Horrid Ancientness, though.

Gonna have to make sure it get's pushed into english/language classes to, though, or it'll be totally pointless.

/

957 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:52:19pm

re: #901 Gus 802

Classic band IMO. And I was just listening to George Jones.

OK you are making me feel some Siouxie and the Banshees and a little NIN with a chaser of Shriekback

958 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:52:25pm

re: #951 Hengineer

Jesus the man was Jewish, yes, but Jesus the Lord is above all that racial and cultural stuff.

Well, prepare to meet the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. That's TRIBAL. =)

959 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:52:51pm

re: #936 Hengineer

Jesus was Jewish. /ducks

You're not ducking from me, are you. Agreed, Jesus was Jewish. And his early followers were simply a sect of Judaism, and would still be if it wasn't for Paul, the first council in Jerusalem and then the Greek and Roman influence, which reached it's final "victory" at Nicea (sp? it's late).

They screwed it up, not Jesus.

960 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:52:52pm

re: #911 Fried Spam

What that says to me is that your perception is that some people's concerns are completely unfounded and that there is no middle ground possible.

That attitude hasn't exactly stopped these academic freedom bills from popping up.

Well, I don't think that anything will stop them from popping up. Because they are motivated by a creationist agenda, pushed by the Disco Institute; 'academic freedom' is simply their latest line of attack.

961 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:53:07pm

I have to sleep Honcos!

weet dreams!

962 Hengineer  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:53:08pm

Goodnight, I must bid everyone adieu as well.
I had a stinking alarm and I've been hanging in the ERC to make sure that its' settled out, all appears well so I will head to bed.

963 Dustyvet  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:53:10pm

re: #944 Zimriel

*quacks*

Oh quackers...got milk...:)

964 Brit in Japan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:53:12pm

re: #865 Hengineer

What's sad is the attitude of some people still out there. There are some hardcore Christians I work with and they are firm believers in Creationism.

They straight up asked me if I believed I was descended from an ape or a monkey.

You just can't answer them in a way that will ever satisfy them.

Haha, I would have answered "mud, 6 days ago".

And now it is POETS day here and I go in search of drink!

BiJ.

965 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:53:19pm

re: #956 Slumbering Behemoth

I can't wait 'til the Dishonesty Institute gets their way, and we can start shoving religion into science class. Their gonna be pissed when my minions push their wimpy religion aside and start teaching the Glory of my Horrid Ancientness, though.

Gonna have to make sure it get's pushed into english/language classes to, though, or it'll be totally pointless.

/

The consequences for mispronunciation are DIRE!

966 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:53:39pm

re: #957 LudwigVanQuixote

OK you are making me feel some Siouxie and the Banshees and a little NIN with a chaser of Shriekback

How about some Fastball?

967 Zimriel  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:53:42pm

re: #946 ggt

Thanks, but I wasn't deriding realwest. I was trying to clarify.

I WOULD NEVER deride realwest.

:)

I've been rough on his posts this thread. It's not meant personally. :^)

968 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:53:56pm

re: #952 NJDhockeyfan

I predict significant vigilante violence & civil unrest are right around the corner for the UK.

969 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:54:13pm

re: #956 Slumbering Behemoth

I can't wait 'til the Dishonesty Institute gets their way

/how old are you?

970 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:54:22pm

re: #959 Walter L. Newton

You're not ducking from me, are you. Agreed, Jesus was Jewish. And his early followers were simply a sect of Judaism, and would still be if it wasn't for Paul, the first council in Jerusalem and then the Greek and Roman influence, which reached it's final "victory" at Nicea (sp? it's late).

They screwed it up, not Jesus.

FYI, Walter: Paul was simply the message boy after the council in Jerusalem. The Messiah's brother was the leader of the assembly. (Acts 15)

971 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:55:45pm

re: #970 Wishing

FYI, Walter: Paul was simply the message boy after the council in Jerusalem. The Messiah's brother was the leader of the assembly. (Acts 15)

I don't care, they screwed it up. And Paul did add greek thinking to his interpretation of Jesus' thinking. That's early christian church 101. Old stuff folks.

972 Abu Bin Squid  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:56:18pm

Walter,
Sorry to have offended, again. (I'll not chew my cabbage thrice)

Please refrain from name calling. Building yourself up by calling others names is beneath you, no?
Sincerely,
ABS

973 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:56:21pm

re: #968 esch

I predict significant vigilante violence & civil unrest are right around the corner for the UK.

I think you are right. You can push people only so far til they hit the breaking point.

974 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:57:34pm

re: #966 Gus 802

How about some Fastball?


Love that song... A different direction than the one I was going in, but I love that song.

975 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:58:00pm

re: #970 Wishing

FYI, Walter: Paul was simply the message boy after the council in Jerusalem. The Messiah's brother was the leader of the assembly. (Acts 15)

Look, I'm an atheist, so, I am talking history and fact, not theology and opinion. If you compare Jesus' teaching to the Judaism of the day, and then compare it to what the church has become, guess what, the church screwed it up, it's nothing like the person of Jesus' had in mind, if you go by what we have as the record of what he said.

976 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:58:39pm

re: #974 LudwigVanQuixote

Was my favorite at the time. The 1990 were nice. I don't want to talk about the 00s. Mumble It started out with...

977 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:59:09pm

1990s that is.

978 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:59:17pm

re: #971 Walter L. Newton

I don't care, they screwed it up. And Paul did add greek thinking to his interpretation of Jesus' thinking. That's early christian church 101. Old stuff folks.

In order to study Paul's writings, one should immerse oneself in Paul's world. Unless you understand the Torah, which was Paul's world, well, honestly, you cannot really understand his writings. Sadly, Christianity generally ignores the Torah, to its own detriment.

979 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:59:37pm

re: #972 Abu Bin Squid

Walter,
Sorry to have offended, again. (I'll not chew my cabbage thrice)

Please refrain from name calling. Building yourself up by calling others names is beneath you, no?
Sincerely,
ABS

Look, you started it by answering "wishful thinking" that I had said goodnight to the thread. Then you explain what the fuck you meant by "wishful thinking?"

980 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 10:59:55pm

re: #965 jcm

The consequences for mispronunciation are DIRE!

Brother, you don't know the half of it.

981 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:00:01pm

re: #928 Salamantis

Finally a post of yours that I can upding!

WooHoo! Sal, if you and I can agree in principle to that kind of thing, there might yet be hope for that middle ground I'm looking for.

982 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:00:08pm

re: #679 Steve

Check Romans Chapter 1 versus 20. I would use an New International Version since it reads more like we talk today. That is the best that I can do for you. I think that you might prefer a lengthy dissertation but I do not have one for you. Sorry.

Romans 1:20

Even without the Spirit of God, without God having fully revealed Himself to a person, it is still possible for him to recognize that a creation demands the existence of a Creator. He can see that an intelligent Designer is necessary rather than the natural world coming into existence by sheer chance. Thus, God says that they are without excuse because they can understand the things that can be known about Him, if they choose to accept it.

I was raised a Christian ........ the above is why I am now an agnostic.

This is the crap they used to teach me......

So, if some missionary hasn't approached the alienated (the unseen tribe member living in the deepest reaches of the Brazilian forest) it's on him to figure it out or he'll have hell to pay.

God is love
/

983 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:00:17pm

re: #976 Gus 802

Was my favorite at the time. The 1990 were nice. I don't want to talk about the 00s. Mumble It started out with...

LOL... I have a joke with my friends that we'll be sitting in some old age home in 2067 saying something like "that was a great Duran Duran tune, could you put that CD on again..."

984 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:00:26pm

re: #975 Walter L. Newton

Look, I'm an atheist, so, I am talking history and fact, not theology and opinion. If you compare Jesus' teaching to the Judaism of the day, and then compare it to what the church has become, guess what, the church screwed it up, it's nothing like the person of Jesus' had in mind, if you go by what we have as the record of what he said.

On that we agree.
Which is one reason why Mainstream Christianity dislikes me and my group so much.

985 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:00:29pm

re: #975 Walter L. Newton

Look, I'm an atheist, so, I am talking history and fact, not theology and opinion. If you compare Jesus' teaching to the Judaism of the day, and then compare it to what the church has become, guess what, the church screwed it up, it's nothing like the person of Jesus' had in mind, if you go by what we have as the record of what he said.

I agree that the church screwed it up: but please don't accuse Paul.

986 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:02:43pm

re: #983 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL... I have a joke with my friends that we'll be sitting in some old age home in 2067 saying something like "that was a great Duran Duran tune, could you put that CD on again..."

If there will be CDs. Of course not. 2067? I'll be either fossilized or some form of carbon ready for study by the Disco Institute.

987 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:04:02pm

re: #984 jcm

On that we agree.
Which is one reason why Mainstream Christianity dislikes me and my group so much.

Heh you're not the only ones. There are a lot of groups that are 'ok' for so-called 'Mainstream Christians' to hate.

988 Fried Spam  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:04:12pm

re: #960 Salamantis

Well, I don't think that anything will stop them from popping up. Because they are motivated by a creationist agenda, pushed by the Disco Institute; 'academic freedom' is simply their latest line of attack.

It depends on what one means by popping up. Various groups will always advocate for certain things. If there can be a middle ground reached that removes the perception of problems that many mainstream Christians have, then the political support for those bills evaporates.

989 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:04:15pm

re: #978 Wishing

In order to study Paul's writings, one should immerse oneself in Paul's world. Unless you understand the Torah, which was Paul's world, well, honestly, you cannot really understand his writings. Sadly, Christianity generally ignores the Torah, to its own detriment.

Paul was deeply rooted in the Torah, "a Pharisee's Pharisee" a student of Gamaliel. One cannot fully understand and appreciate Paul with out having a detailed knowledge of the Torah.

It's is a great short coming.

990 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:04:33pm

re: #985 Wishing

I agree that the church screwed it up: but please don't accuse Paul.

Look, I'm not going to start to quote scripture to you, Charles doesn't like that. If you want to click on my name and email me, go ahead and I'll take this off line. But don't tell me not to "accuse" Paul.

I'm talking about history here. "Accuse" sounds like he is some sort of friend of yours. That's a loaded request on your part.

Stop with the hyperbole, it's beneath you.

991 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:05:15pm

re: #984 jcm

On that we agree. Which is one reason why Mainstream Christianity dislikes me and my group so much.

Well, Christianity has almost always hated Jews.

992 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:05:47pm

re: #991 Walter L. Newton

Well, Christianity has almost always hated Jews.

No, really?

//

993 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:06:46pm

re: #990 Walter L. Newton

Look, I'm not going to start to quote scripture to you, Charles doesn't like that. If you want to click on my name and email me, go ahead and I'll take this off line. But don't tell me not to "accuse" Paul.

I'm talking about history here. "Accuse" sounds like he is some sort of friend of yours. That's a loaded request on your part.

Stop with the hyperbole, it's beneath you.

Well, I do like Paul alot, that is true. And this isnt hyperbole. Many accusations are leveled at historic figures that are not necessarily true. Paul is a case in point.
And yes, I will email you.

994 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:08:17pm
995 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:08:18pm

re: #991 Walter L. Newton

Well, Christianity has almost always hated Jews.

Considering who and what the eponymous founder was, hating Jews is more than just a tad ironic.

996 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:08:30pm

re: #992 Gus 802

No, really?

//

That's why it drives me crazy when I listen to people who will jump through hoops trying to explain how Hitler was not christian. Shit, 90 percent of Europe was christian, including Hitler and they did not like Jews. They had 1950 years worth of hatred of Jews. It's only SINCE WWII, that there has been SOME changes in how SOME christians view Jews.

And even then, it's not enough.

997 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:09:07pm

re: #987 esch

Heh you're not the only ones. There are a lot of groups that are 'ok' for so-called 'Mainstream Christians' to hate.

I'm (and my group) on a bunch of "cult" lists.
Let's put it this way, I'm too stinkin' independent and stubborn to be in any cult. I happen to end up with them because I came to many of the conclusions about scripture before I found out about them.

I've been fellow-shipping with them for 18 years. In all that time not one demand has been place on me.

998 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:09:48pm

re: #995 FurryOldGuyJeans

Considering who and what the eponymous founder was, hating Jews is more than just a tad ironic.

No, it's not ironic, it's plain old bigotry. Ironic makes it sound too romantic.

999 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:09:57pm

re: #991 Walter L. Newton

Well, Christianity has almost always hated Jews.

Which is uber stupid.
GAH!

1000 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:10:36pm

re: #988 Fried Spam

It depends on what one means by popping up. Various groups will always advocate for certain things. If there can be a middle ground reached that removes the perception of problems that many mainstream Christians have, then the political support for those bills evaporates.

I reluctantly updinged you. Reluctantly, because so much of Christian perception unfortunately has far less to do with the letter or spirit of a law than it does what their preachers tell them their perception should be, and as long as the Disco Institute has these preachers' ears, the problem will remain.

1001 Wishing  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:11:34pm

Email sent, Walter.
Gnite again.

1002 esch  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:11:56pm

re: #997 jcm

I'm (and my group) on a bunch of "cult" lists.
Let's put it this way, I'm too stinkin' independent and stubborn to be in any cult. I happen to end up with them because I came to many of the conclusions about scripture before I found out about them.

I've been fellow-shipping with them for 18 years. In all that time not one demand has been place on me.

Godo for you. About the same here.

I don't proselyze. Lead by example, not words. If people want to know, they'll ask.

1003 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:12:37pm

re: #996 Walter L. Newton

Exactly. I find it perplexing. It endured well into the 60s and was repackaged by the television evangelists in the 1980s. You can also add WWII Italy to the mix. The accepted phrase for standard Catholics was that the "Jews killed Christ."

I know it's controversial in these times of historical revisionism and denial. But it's true and I even saw the tail end of it even if it was "just rhetoric."

1004 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:12:43pm

re: #998 Walter L. Newton

No, it's not ironic, it's plain old bigotry. Ironic makes it sound too romantic.

Bigotry against one's founder and his background is irony writ large.

1005 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:12:43pm

re: #997 jcm

I'm (and my group) on a bunch of "cult" lists.
Let's put it this way, I'm too stinkin' independent and stubborn to be in any cult. I happen to end up with them because I came to many of the conclusions about scripture before I found out about them.

I've been fellow-shipping with them for 18 years. In all that time not one demand has been place on me.

Email me. If you don't want to mention the group here, then tell me in an email. It's not fair that you expound on this subject, yet hold back your association like it's some big secret. What are you worried about? I like to know where you sit before you tell me where you stand.

1006 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:12:43pm

re: #995 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm pretty sure that Christianity was a version of Mithraism retold with an anti-Roman slant. Jew hatred was probably secondary.
P.S. Judaism was a retooling of Babylonian religion with and anti-Babylonian/anti-Egyptian slant.
P.P.S Islam was a revision of everything with an anti-everybody slant.
/so it goes.....

1007 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:14:29pm

re: #1005 Walter L. Newton

Not commenting on this but I once told an Eastern European guy I talk with a lot that I was an atheist. You know what his response was? Oh, "you're a Jew."

I laughed but I knew the underlying motivation.

1008 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:14:56pm

re: #1000 Salamantis

I reluctantly updinged you. Reluctantly, because so much of Christian perception unfortunately has far less to do with the letter or spirit of a law than it does what their preachers tell them their perception should be, and as long as the Disco Institute has these preachers' ears, the problem will remain.

DING!

Acts 17:11, receiving the word with all readiness of mind, daily searching the scriptures if these things were so.

Christians who merely accept what is taught from the pulpit are missing an important step. They need to spiritually prove to themselves what is taught.

1009 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:15:24pm

re: #1003 Gus 802

Exactly. I find it perplexing. It endured well into the 60s and was repackaged by the television evangelists in the 1980s. You can also add WWII Italy to the mix. The accepted phrase for standard Catholics was that the "Jews killed Christ."

I know it's controversial in these times of historical revisionism and denial. But it's true and I even saw the tail end of it even if it was "just rhetoric."

And now many are sliding back into the well-trod paths of antisemitism at a breakneck speed.

1010 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:15:57pm

You can believe in life after death or not, why limit your options?

/Killian Bundy

1011 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:16:07pm

re: #996 Walter L. Newton

That's why it drives me crazy when I listen to people who will jump through hoops trying to explain how Hitler was not christian. Shit, 90 percent of Europe was christian, including Hitler and they did not like Jews. They had 1950 years worth of hatred of Jews. It's only SINCE WWII, that there has been SOME changes in how SOME christians view Jews.

And even then, it's not enough.

People don't like to look. It is not comfortable to realize how close the abyss can be.

1012 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:16:16pm

re: #1004 FurryOldGuyJeans

Bigotry against one's founder and his background is irony writ large.

Christianity does not follow it's founder, if it did, it would be another sect of Judaism. The whole community fell into the politics of the times and it became a "gentile" religion. That's history, not theology, and that's fact, not opinion.

1013 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:17:16pm

re: #1009 FurryOldGuyJeans

And now many are sliding back into the well-trod paths of antisemitism at a breakneck speed.

They are. Back to the old "banker" stereotype. The roots I think go back to early civilizations in Arab kingdoms and the mercantile class.

1014 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:17:54pm

re: #969 Killian Bundy

Eons.

1015 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:18:39pm

re: #1006 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty sure that Christianity was a version of Mithraism retold with an anti-Roman slant. Jew hatred was probably secondary.
P.S. Judaism was a retooling of Babylonian religion with and anti-Babylonian/anti-Egyptian slant.
P.P.S Islam was a revision of everything with an anti-everybody slant.
/so it goes.....

I wasn't even addressing those areas of Biblical Scholarship, but there is all that baggage being rediscovered recently.

1016 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:19:00pm

re: #1006 Killgore Trout

I'm pretty sure that Christianity was a version of Mithraism retold with an anti-Roman slant. Jew hatred was probably secondary.
P.S. Judaism was a retooling of Babylonian religion with and anti-Babylonian/anti-Egyptian slant.
P.P.S Islam was a revision of everything with an anti-everybody slant.
/so it goes.....

Killgore, I know you know that I know, you know? But I don't take it that far here. I try to stay with in the confines of the general tone of the "religious" theme, without stepping all over their beliefs, but without diminishing mine.

You, you just go for the jugular. :)

1017 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:19:05pm

Bomb 20

/we'll get there

1018 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:19:12pm
1019 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:20:18pm

re: #1018 ploome hineni

no it's not

the founder was Paul..and the tweaked by the 'Fathers' of the Church

and here

You got that 100 percent correct. That's what I have been saying for two hours. Up ding.

1020 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:20:29pm

re: #1012 Walter L. Newton

Christianity does not follow it's founder, if it did, it would be another sect of Judaism. The whole community fell into the politics of the times and it became a "gentile" religion. That's history, not theology, and that's fact, not opinion.

And that is part of the entire package of irony I mentioned before, the utter disconnect between the myth and the reality.

1021 Killian Bundy  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:21:08pm

re: #1014 Slumbering Behemoth

Eons.

/outlast the controversy!

1022 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:21:32pm

re: #1005 Walter L. Newton

Email me. If you don't want to mention the group here, then tell me in an email. It's not fair that you expound on this subject, yet hold back your association like it's some big secret. What are you worried about? I like to know where you sit before you tell me where you stand.

We have a National Ministry organization, Living Stream Ministry. However the individual churches are autonomous and lead by local elders, we call ourselves The Local church. (Google that and you get an eyeful) Paul wrote his epistles to all the believers in a geographic area, hence the name we use. Historically we're a outgrowth of the Brethren. Our goal is to adhere to the pure Word of God as closely as possible.

Most of the trappings of Mainstream Christianity are not in the Bible. And there is where we get into trouble with them.

1023 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:22:05pm

re: #1020 FurryOldGuyJeans

And that is part of the entire package of irony I mentioned before, the utter disconnect between the myth and the reality.

But here, on LGF, I don't play the reality card to the limit. As I said to Killgore, I don't take it that far here. I try to stay with in the confines of the general tone of the "religious" theme, without stepping all over their beliefs, but without diminishing mine.

1024 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:23:50pm

re: #1022 jcm

I'm well aware of Living Stream. I was just curious. You name it, I've been there, or at least have read the basic tenets.

1025 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:24:24pm

re: #1006 Killgore Trout


P.S. Judaism was a retooling of Babylonian religion with and anti-Babylonian/anti-Egyptian slant.

Look folks, we're basically all just West Semites here...

1026 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:24:55pm

re: #1018 ploome hineni

no it's not

the founder was Paul..and the tweaked by the 'Fathers' of the Church

and here

There is research that the true founder should be considered to be Constantine when you realize that it was church councils under his auspices that defined and refined what Christianity and the New Testament would be.

1027 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:26:07pm

It's not by accident that "Passion of the Christ" is popular with a large proportion of The Base.

1028 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:27:24pm

re: #1027 Gus 802

It's not by accident that "Passion of the Christ" is popular with a large proportion of The Base.

Who is "The Base?" (I'm probably gonna be sorry I asked).

1029 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:28:24pm

re: #1012 Walter L. Newton

Christianity does not follow it's founder, if it did, it would be another sect of Judaism. The whole community fell into the politics of the times and it became a "gentile" religion. That's history, not theology, and that's fact, not opinion.

Historically you are correct. Theological my view is Christ is the foundation of the Church, the rock is not Cephas, Peter, but the revelation of The Christ. Paul then completed the church. The church is built, the same word is used to describe Eve being built from Adams rib, in a spiritual way from there.

After Paul, most deviated from the spiritual growth into an organizational growth which has been disastrous.

1030 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:28:32pm

re: #1028 Walter L. Newton

Who is "The Base?" (I'm probably gonna be sorry I asked).

No. You know, the base of electorate for the GOP.

1031 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:29:17pm
1032 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:29:45pm

The memeplex of Judaism originally involved a divine gift of a particular parcel of land to a particular chosen people - Israel for the Jews (although, lately, converts to Judaism, although not sought, are accepted from every racial and ethnic classification). Thus the parameters for the growth of the Jewish memeplex were set by the nature of the memeplex itself - only within ethnic Jews, who were only promised dominion over historical Israel (most Zionists still think this way).

However, with the evolution of Christianity from Judaism, the ethnic imperative and the geographical rootedness were pruned off, and all one had to do was to accept the memeplex. This allowed Christianity to spread to all sorts of ethnicities, and for them to take control of previously non-Christian lands, as their demographics grew to majority within them. It also had the advantage of spreading the genetic sacrifice idea beyond a tribe, so that multiple tribes sharing the same memeplex could band together and both protect each other and cooperate in the confrontation of common enemies (a feature that the Roman Empire put to conscious use when they adopted Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire). However, Christianity was written so it could be disseminated via persuasion - the Great Charter, which comprises the Christian memeplex's infection module, reads: "Go ye therefore and TEACH all nations". Of course, the construction of this module implies the conviction that the vector is offering a gift of knowledge to the ignorant, and for this reason many have been historically forced to adopt Christianity 'for their own good', even when they were too (willfully or otherwise) ignorant to recognize what their own good was, and sometimes at the cost of their mortal bodies, if in the process their immortal souls were saved.

Still, the language of Christianity's proselytization module is persuasional rather than coercive, and this left room for the development of tolerance for other faiths, even while missionaries continue to be perpetually funded to 'spread the Good Word'.

This is a weakness that the evolution into Islam has exploited. The Muslim memeplex explicitly substitutes coercion for persuasion. It is quite precise in what may and may not be done: all 'People of the Book' - that is, Jews and Christians (and I suppose Zoroastrians - they have a single holy book called the Zend Avestra of Zarathustra)- have the option to a) convert to Islam, b) be put to death, or c) live in Dhimmitude, a serfic, subservient state somewhere between slavery and second-class citizenship, characterized by less civil rights, the fact that any Muslim's word will always be legally favored over theirs in courts of Shari'a law, and the payment of perpetual monetary tribute known as the jizya. For all the rest - Buddhist, Taoists, Confucians, Hindus, Pagans and Atheists - the options are only two: convert or die.

1033 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:30:26pm

re: #1028 Walter L. Newton

Who is "The Base?" (I'm probably gonna be sorry I asked).

I would hazard a guess in this instance that would be Fundamental Christians that believe God's Will, in part, is making America a theocracy and making Creationism the only accepted science.

1034 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:30:59pm

re: #1027 Gus 802

It's not by accident that "Passion of the Christ" is popular with a large proportion of The Base.

During my first year of classroom teaching I tangled with a group of kids who really wanted to watch "The Passion of the Christ" in class. I said NO.

"Why not?" one kid persisted.

"Because it has an R rating, and that's all the reason we need, mister."

"But there's no bad words in it!"

"Yes, but a man gets tortured to death!"

"So what?"

"Does your abuelita know you said that about Jesus' death?"

I won. The abuelita is the knock-out punch.

1035 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:31:57pm

re: #1028 Walter L. Newton

Who is "The Base?" (I'm probably gonna be sorry I asked).

Doesn't "al-Qaeda" literally mean "the base"?

///////

1036 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:32:03pm

re: #1031 ploome hineni

that too

but certainly not the Jesus described, who lived and died a Jew, and only preached to Jews

and only for 2-3 years

I read somewere he probably only preached to a few thousand people

given the size of the village and the distance and means of travel

You certainly won't find me arguing that what we have now is nothing what was intended by the man who is credited as being the founder.

1037 jcm  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:32:14pm

re: #1028 Walter L. Newton

Okay, you kept me up past my bedtime.
g'night and don't fall off the turtle stack.

1038 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:33:41pm

re: #1032 Salamantis

"memeplex". That is my new word for the evening.

1039 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:34:33pm

re: #1033 FurryOldGuyJeans

I would hazard a guess in this instance that would be Fundamental Christians that believe God's Will, in part, is making America a theocracy and making Creationism the only accepted science.

Ok, but why did you capitalize it? You made it sound like it was some sort of official title. That's annoying. Do you do that just to annoy me? If anything, it would have been more proper to place it in quotes, since it has only a meaning to you in caps, and you have a 4 line explanation of it.

1040 Gus  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:35:24pm

What I'm saying is that there is a large contingent of the Republican base (electorate) that have created an artificial alliance with Jews. They still believe in the axiom that "the Jews killed Christ" but use the false alliance to create an artificial bond. Sometimes we get tidbits of there true feelings by the likes of Buchanan, Ron Paul, Ann Coulter and others. On the opposite end you get people like Hillary Clinton and others. Maybe I'm wrong who knows.

1041 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:36:14pm

Lilah Tov Lizards!

I need to get to work tomorrow! And have fun tomorrow night!

1042 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:37:24pm

re: #1033 FurryOldGuyJeans

I would hazard a guess in this instance that would be Fundamental Christians that believe God's Will, in part, is making America a theocracy and making Creationism the only accepted science.

And now that I really examine your comment, what the fuck has "the passion of the christ" have to do with fundamental christianity? That movie is FAR from the biblical story, and the "theology" in it is totally eastern, not anything of western christianity.

Your comment doesn't make ANY sense.

1043 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:42:00pm
1044 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:42:39pm

This was an excellent thread. We discussed evolution AND religion for over a thousand comments, and I don't think anyone even got banned. Almost no hurt feelings. Many interesting thoughts expressed. It's enough to give you hope for humankind or something.

And on that note:

Good night lizards,
Good night lizards,
Good night lizards,
I'll see you in my dreams.

1045 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:43:04pm
1046 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:43:50pm
1047 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:44:31pm

re: #1016 Walter L. Newton

I don't think it's that harsh. Everybody steals everyone's ideas to hate on everyone else. It's simplistic beauty.

1048 slokat  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:46:33pm

re: #1031 ploome hineni

Amazingly effective results if that was all he did?

1049 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:48:20pm
1050 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 19, 2009 11:51:39pm
1051 Aye Pod  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 12:42:17am

re: #463 Dark_Falcon

He was being a major jerk this morning. He took both Mandy and Walter deliberately out of context and would not apologize.

Let's not forget that the little shit lied through his teeth repeatedly about me, claiming that my posts showed a pattern of hatred towards all religious people, without being able to come up with a single shred of evidence to back it up when challenged to do so. When confronted on another thread he lied again, prompting this response from me.

As I advised him on that thread, he'd be best to stay the fuck out of my road for the remainder of his hopefully soon to be terminated stay here.

1052 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 3:23:13am
1053 theheat  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 3:33:50am

re: #555 Salamantis

Shame I can't upding about eleventeen times.

1054 theheat  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 3:42:29am

re: #552 LudwigVanQuixote

Only basic cable. Any of the premium channels, and there's hell to pay.

1055 MandyManners  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 4:56:14am

re: #608 Mich-again

What if someone never heard the Christian Gospels yet they lived a good in every way life by J*'s standards. Would your God really reject him or her?

Would God? I do believe there is scripture to answer that very question.

1056 axeman1  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 5:40:55am

Peer-reviewed jungle out there. Lets not get carried away. The vast majority of schools of all stripes worldwide preach the (Al Gore Gospel ) on global warming, peer - review be damned. The problem is not that creationism is trying to make it"s way in the schools back door .I believe there would be no need for it if we didn't kick religious discussion out the front door .That would eliminate most the efforts to make religion scientific. I'm not advocating any religious instruction in the public schools
but I think the pendjulum has swung way to far away from any discussion at all.

1057 Annar  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 5:42:25am

It's too bad that Darwin did not simply state, as did Laplace with respect to his celestial mechanics, that with respect to god "Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse." In effect he does not use any form of supernaturalism in his work and nowhere pretends that his work precludes the existence of god but if he were alive today I'm sure he'd put up a Laplace like disclaimer to end this foolish debate.

1058 dahozho  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 5:47:54am

I guess I just don't understand the problem in describing natural processes outside of religious dogma. There has to be neutral ground in hard science, or the scientific method Western Civ has developed gets so distorted we might as well go back to subscribing to the four humours of the body and the only elements of fire, water, and earth.

Easy way to demonstrate evolution in action-- the rise of antibiotic-resistant bacteria. If everything has been created, period, these little bugs shouldn't be able to *change and adapt* to the drugs we use to fight them.

Religiosity and science are not mutually exclusive. My grandfather was a quietly religious man and a brilliant microbiologist. (In fact, he was a co-author on the first US experiments with penicillin (treating bovine mastitis).)

1059 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 6:04:28am
1060 Mr Secul  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 6:16:52am

re: #859 Zimriel

Actually the fossil record, if taken into consideration with intelligent design, is evidence for polytheism over monotheism. Intelligent design as Greek philosophy argued it, is the mechanism by which creatures change form. So you'd need several gods each tweaking their creation in order to compete with the other gods' toys.

Or a single god with multiple personalities.

Or a single god who isn't doing it for the benefit of the creatures themselves, he has a 'bigger' plan and any benefit that the creatures gain is only pot luck.

Though I don't know of any recorded case of a creature having a feature that was solely for the benefit of another creature, which is something that could happen with intelligent design. Natural Selection would not select for features that don't benefit the creature that has them. If they have a cost then they'd be weeded out over time.

An intelligent designer would have to refrain from creating such features by an act of will.

Its another piece of evidence that suggests ID isn't true or that the IDer is faking/emulating/paying-an-homage-to evolution.

Another possibility is that the IDer has other reasons for not creating creatures that have features that only benefit other creatures. Maybe someone could think of a good reason why a Christian God like IDer wouldn't make cooperative creatures that live selflessly for each other's benefit.

1061 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 6:39:36am

re: #1059 daughter of patriots

First of all, science and religion need not be in conflict. No one who accepts the veracity of evolution is going to be swayed to creationism because astronauts read from the Bible on their way to the moon.

Second, this isn't about atheists taking offense at religion. It's those of a particular faith taking offense at science. The religious vs. atheists is a canard in this debate.

1062 FrogMarch  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 7:00:41am

The left use the same tactic ; The left hides behind "Employee Free Choice Act" but the reality is that it's the opposite. The democrat union lobby desperately want to take away an individuals right to a secret ballot.

Deceptive language is the key.

1063 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 7:15:50am

I always liked Billy Graham.

1064 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 7:48:08am
1065 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:02:04am

re: #1064 daughter of patriots

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Sounds like evolution.

1066 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:10:19am

re: #1064 daughter of patriots

By the way- you are aware that one can accept the veracity of evolution and still believe in God, right?

1067 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:16:14am

I am going to delete comments that consist of nothing but Bible quotes. If you want to proselytize for your particular sect, do it elsewhere. If this continues, I'll block accounts.

1068 Sharmuta  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:30:39am

re: #1067 Charles

Can't you almost hear the lurking trolls scribbling, "Charles hates the Bible" and updating their little memes?

1069 Haverwilde  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 8:42:07am

These discussions become frustrating, as I read the dogmatic religious declarations. Some have a point and others pointless, just dogma. But there is no theo-logic, as in God Logic, in the statements. There is a ‘parroting’ of a paternalistic religion, more set on controlling behavior and maintaining the power structure of a church, than there is providing the religious solace to the people. Any of you who believe that you know the ‘mind of God’ because of an interpretation of written word are patently mad. Any you who believe in our Christian view, that God is a Loving and Forgiving God, and still believe that He would, without mercy, cast every non-believer into a state of eternal punishment, have a disconnect in your mental apparatus. Steve and others of his ilk, spew the nonsense because it is easier to ‘parrot’ these statements than it is to actually think. It is easier to prop oneself up by believing in the ‘exclusive club’ than it is to actually live the by our Lords commandments—loving, forgiving, not judging, and being Humble. Please don’t respond by quoting scripture. I have already read it, all, several times, and in many versions.

1070 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:00:38am
1071 daughter of patriots  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:16:42am

Wow, you deleted post for replying "there's the rub," and quoting 4 verses of Psalm 139.

1072 Spiny Norman  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:17:16am

re: #1070 davemanus

Out of all the bad teaching practices and policies in our public schools, worrying about creationalism seems about #infinity. Why this particular ax ground to a nub? Did the nuns beat you in grade school?

Because, while the other "bad teaching practices" are the result of incompetence and/or political correctness run amok, teaching religious dogma as science (or "teaching the controversy" or however the creationists want to phrase it) violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution. It is endorsing religion in government schools.

How would you feel if Islamic doctrine were taught in public schools? There have been attempts to do just that, and Charles (and his readers) have rightly denounced them.

If you want your children to be taught Genesis in the classroom, send them to a private religious school.

1073 Spiny Norman  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:29:44am

re: #1049 ploome hineni

but the wierd thing is...according to the claimed prophesy, the Messiah

the anointed one, the suffering servant

would suffer..for mankind.......or mankind would not be 'saved'

if Jesus was in fact Messiah...he was born to suffer

the Jews or any human could not have caused it, or prevented it

I was raised as a Seventh-Day Adventist and that is exactly what I was taught. Christian anti-Semitism has never made any sense to me.

Adventists (as I recall) are deeply suspicious of the Roman Catholic Church, believing it is more about political power than Salvation, and Rome's long history of anti-Semitism is held up as proof of this.

1074 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:45:38am

Comments that whine about the existence of these threads will be deleted.

If the whining is combined with insults, the account will be history.

1075 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 9:50:16am

re: #1071 daughter of patriots

Wow, you deleted post for replying "there's the rub," and quoting 4 verses of Psalm 139.

That's right. I do not allow proselytizing at LGF, and dumping Bible quotes into a comment is proselytizing.

1076 andymacop  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 12:26:09pm

re: #1072 Spiny Norman

Maybe a dead thread, but I have thought about this situation and I would like to offer an alternative view.

If we advocate for the introduction of a literal understanding of Genesis into the science classroom, that means it will have to be tested against the rigors of scientific experimentation. Thus, within short order, the fundamentalist view of young-earth creationism will fall like a house of cards and we can move on to our respective disciplines in peace and quiet. You see, for every Christian, especially the fundamentalist, there is one truth that must be upheld: God can neither deceive nor be deceived. Any Christian who denies this fact is no Christian. So if God is not a deceiver, then why do all of the most reliable scientific methods date the earth and the cosmos as old as they do? Is God trying to lie to the rational being known as humans? What does it benefit the human being to think that the creator of the cosmos is a liar and a deceiver?

One thought to the fundamentalist: grow up and learn a thing or two. Your belief in God us not dependent upon the earth being 6,000 years old or the literal interpretation of the Bible. Take a class, read a book on biblical interpretation, or better yet, on scientific methodology. But please abandon this nightmare of young earth creationism. The dinosaurs would be very happy if you did!

1077 Salamantis  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 12:41:58pm

re: #1056 axeman1

Peer-reviewed jungle out there. Lets not get carried away. The vast majority of schools of all stripes worldwide preach the (Al Gore Gospel ) on global warming, peer - review be damned. The problem is not that creationism is trying to make it"s way in the schools back door .I believe there would be no need for it if we didn't kick religious discussion out the front door .That would eliminate most the efforts to make religion scientific. I'm not advocating any religious instruction in the public schools but I think the pendjulum has swung way to far away from any discussion at all.

Religious discussion belongs in comparative religion classes (which are usually college level classes), in churches, in private religious schools, and in the home, NOT in public school science classes. There is NO EXCUSE that could possibly justify the effort to illegitimately insinuate religious discussion into public school science class. And trying to attack evolution by invoking global warming is like trying to slime Abraham Lincoln by invoking Ron Paul.

1078 Basho  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 2:07:17pm

re: #1056 axeman1

The vast majority of schools of all stripes worldwide preach [...] global warming, peer - review be damned.

Which peer-reviewed articles say there is no global warming?

1079 Grundle  Fri, Feb 20, 2009 6:57:00pm

There is no global warming. Are you an imbecile? Church of ALGORE.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Uncommon US Flags #3: Storm Warning Flags Indianola, Texas after the Civil War became the principal port for the state, due to its location on Matagorda Bay. The town steadily grew as commerce, tourism, and agriculture expanded. In 1875, a powerful Category 3 hurricane struck Indianola, ...
Anymouse 🌹🏡😷
Yesterday
Views: 50 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
A Friday at the Tail End of SpringJust out and about for a bit. First a walk downtown where the two rivers meet, then a short drive just outside of town.
William Lewis
3 days ago
Views: 129 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 3
The Good Liars at Miami Trump Rally [VIDEO] Jason and Davram talk with Trump supporters about art, Mike Lindell, who is really president and more! SUPPORT US: herohero.co SEE THE GOOD LIARS LIVE!LOS ANGELES, CA squadup.com SUBSCRIBE TO OUR AUDIO PODCAST:Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.comSpotify: open.spotify.comJoin this channel to ...
teleskiguy
5 days ago
Views: 417 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Ranked-Choice Voting Has Challenged the Status Quo. Its Popularity Will Be Tested in November. JUNEAU — Alaska’s new election system — with open primaries and ranked voting — has been a model for those in other states who are frustrated by political polarization and a sense that voters lack real choice at the ...
Cheechako
4 weeks ago
Views: 389 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 2