GM CEO: Thanks for the Money, I Think We’ll Declare Bankruptcy Now

Business • Views: 30,302

Now he tells us: GM’s New CEO: Bankruptcy May Be Best Option for Automaker.

General Motors’s new chief executive told CNBC that filing for Bankruptcy may be the best option for the struggling automaker.

In a taped interview to be aired tonight on NBC Nightly News, Fritz Henderson said that because of greater demands from the Obama administration to restructure, GM is considering the bankruptcy option. The auto giant previously had ruled out such a move, saying it would discourage people from buying GM cars.

Henderson’s comments came after President Obama bluntly rejected turnaround plans by GM and Chrysler and demanded that both companies make fresh concessions in order to get more federal aid.

Henderson, who was GM’s president and chief operating officer, was named the new CEO after the government forced the resignation of CEO Rick Wagoner on Sunday. GM’s board is also being restructured.

Henderson told reporters that the company would still prefer to restructure outside of court, but the level of support Washington is offering would help the company quickly restructure through bankruptcy.

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384 comments
1 jdog29  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:36am

“The best of both worlds.” Hannah Montana

2 hebrewtoyou  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:06:44am

I’m absolutely SHOCKED! I mean, who wouldn’t want to continue seeking aid from a White House who feels they have the power to depose the CEOs of private corporations. Feh.

3 simonml  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:01am

Is he just a puppet of the government or is this for realsies?

Either way its not good

4 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:08am

Brilliant economic policy, Obama! Throw all our money down on a losing investment.

5 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:17am

Which is why giving them money in the first place was a huge mistake, but NOOOOOO, they wouldn’t listen us here Would they?

6 CIA Reject  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:37am
“Henderson told reporters that the company would still prefer to restructure outside of court, but the level of support Washington is offering would help the company quickly restructure through bankruptcy.”

The Obama Administration: Helping America go bankrupt since 2009!

7 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:40am
8 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:44am

How long before GM is ‘encouraged’ to fire Henderson?

9 coquimbojoe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:47am

Just wait, the government is involved, it will only get better. The government knows what it is doing…


/

10 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:07:53am

Reposting because I hate being on the DT.
Apropos of nothing at all I have always considered it cosmic irony that the plans for the invasion of Japan (Operation Downfall consisting of Operations Olympic and Coronet) used the names of automobile models as the code names for the various beaches on Honshu.

11 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:08:03am

re: #7 buzzsawmonkey

“So long, and thanks for all the fish.”

Hey! That’s my line!

12 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:08:13am

re: #6 CIA Reject

The Obama Administration: Helping America go bankrupt since 2009!

Barack ‘08!

Baroke ‘09!

13 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:08:15am
14 Erik The Red  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:08:19am

The market should have been allowed to correct itself. All this money has been pissed away and my great grandkids will still be paying for this shit. 44 was in such a rush that he has sold the US down the river,

15 coquimbojoe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:08:22am

re: #7 buzzsawmonkey

“So long, and thanks for all the fish.”

We do deserve to be paved over in some kinda galactic super highway…

16 Buck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:08:53am

The Fed backing up the warranties made this possible.

I really don’t think that fed backed warranties rate quite as high as price.


Sell me the car for less… I will get it fixed at the corner garage.

17 coquimbojoe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:09:04am

re: #14 Erik The Red

The market should have been allowed to correct itself. All this money has been pissed away and my great grandkids will still be paying for this shit. 44 was in such a rush that he has sold the US down the river,

I agree. But I think he would’ve sold us down the river anyway.

18 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:09:08am
General Motors’s new chief executive told CNBC that filing for Bankruptcy may be the best option for the struggling automaker.

No shit!

19 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:09:21am

Why didn’t they just do that the first time?

20 Diamond Bullet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:09:23am

Uh oh, after this Obama is sure to put them on double secret probation.

21 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:09:24am

re: #15 coquimbojoe

We do deserve to be paved over in some kinda galactic super highway…

I am hoping the Dentrasi pick me up.

22 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:09:41am

re: #19 Dianna

Why didn’t they just do that the first time?

Do you have kids?

23 redstateredneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:01am

This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

24 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:04am

re: #17 coquimbojoe

I agree. But I think he would’ve sold us down the river anyway.

I don’t know why,
I don’t understand,
Why you sold me down the river.

25 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:08am

The government is already dealing with one big problem with bankruptcy.
That could void warranties, which would destroy their sales. With the government guaranteeing them, then people will be much more willing to buy GM cars.
That, and making rules that specifications for parts would be available to all 3rd party parts manufacturers in the case GM stops making them or goes out of business, should be all the government does.
That way, your new car doesn’t become worthless when it breaks down, but GM is still responsible for running itself and recovering. The customers wouldn’t be the ones who suffer.

26 doppelganglander  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:11am
The auto giant previously had ruled out such a move, saying it would discourage people from buying GM cars.

Actually, it’s the crappy quality that discourages people from buying GM cars. Any prospect of getting the bailout money back?

27 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:19am

re: #7 buzzsawmonkey

“So long, and thanks for all the fish.”

If this guys not careful he’s gonna be sleeping with the fish if he crosses the O…..
/

28 NYCHardhat  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:26am

Everyday it gets a little harder trying to keep from tearing someone’s head off.

29 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:37am

re: #13 taxfreekiller

It is best to be out of the country at a time like this.

Rham…

Brilliant observation. Just like when it went to the West Coast when the AIG bonus thing blew up.

30 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:37am
31 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:47am

re: #22 Nevergiveup

Do you have kids?

No. Though I do have niblings.

32 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:10:52am

re: #15 coquimbojoe

We do deserve to be paved over in some kinda galactic super highway…

We’ll have the Vogons running our country soon.

33 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:11:04am

re: #28 NYCHardhat

Everyday it gets a little harder trying to keep from tearing someone’s head off.

Yeah, I know the feeling, makes me wish some folk were like pez dispensers.

34 coquimbojoe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:11:06am

re: #21 Ford_Prefect

Heh. I hope I don’t miss them while I am trying to get my sofa unstuck from the stairwell.

35 doppelganglander  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:11:16am

re: #14 Erik The Red

The market should have been allowed to correct itself. All this money has been pissed away and my great grandkids will still be paying for this shit. 44 was in such a rush that he has sold to sell the US down the river.


FTFY

36 Erik The Red  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:11:18am

re: #28 NYCHardhat

Everyday it gets a little harder trying to keep from tearing someone’s head off.

And pissing down the whole.

37 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:11:28am

re: #32 Kosh’s Shadow

We’ll have the Vogons running our country soon.

Hell, we were treated to some of their poetry at the inaugural.

38 barry the baptist  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:11:49am

This is a damn shame. There are 2 realities that exist:

1- reality for the polticians.
2- reality for the peasants.

I am thinking that Guy Fawkes had it right all those years ago…….

39 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:11:55am

re: #16 Buck

The Fed backing up the warranties made this possible.

I really don’t think that fed backed warranties rate quite as high as price.

Sell me the car for less… I will get it fixed at the corner garage.

Only if the corner garage can get parts and the computer data. GM could still overcharge for those.

40 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:12:03am

re: #32 Kosh’s Shadow

We’ll have the Vogons running our country soon.

I think they already are.

At least, to go by the poem read at the inauguration.

41 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:12:06am

Frankly, I’m sick of this propping up of failed businesses. It only masks the problem and prolongs the pain.

Let failing companies fail. Let them crash and burn. Take the economic hit. And then let better-run companies step in to fill the gap in the market.

That’s how innovation happens, and that’s the fastest ways for economies to get back on their feet.

But by keeping sick and mismanaged companies afloat with our taxpayer money is a recipe for permanent stagnation.

The road ahead is paved with the corpses of stodgy failed corporations.

42 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:12:17am

re: #37 Guanxi88

Hell, we were treated to some of their poetry at the inaugural.

GMTA!

43 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:12:24am

re: #37 Guanxi88

Hell, we were treated to some of their poetry at the inaugural.

If ever there was a time that we needed Deep Thought it is now.

44 Power Armored Lizardoid  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:12:26am

“Brilliant!”

/Guinness

Frakkin’ Demo-rats…

45 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:12:45am

In a taped interview to be aired tonight on NBC Nightly News, Fritz Henderson said that because of greater demands from the Obama administration to restructure, GM is considering the bankruptcy option. The auto giant previously had ruled out such a move, saying it would discourage people from buying GM cars.

I actually was in the market for a new car, and was so aggravated at GM and Chrysler that I didn’t even look at their cars. Bought a Ford product.

46 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:01am

re: #32 Kosh’s Shadow

We’ll have the Vogons running our country soon.

It would be better under Vogons. At least they weren’t evil.

47 slterry40  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:05am

How long until Obama fires this clear thinking individual?

48 Boxy_brown  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:06am

Who couldn’t see this coming?

Sigh

49 Fenway_Nation  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:07am

Hmm…wonder if I’ll get Hussein Dolt’s pre-recorded voice if I call GM’s Warranty Center.

‘This is Barack 0bama- you have reached the General Motors Warranty Service Center. For English, Press 0ne; Para Español, toque dos…’

50 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:16am

GM CEO: Thanks for the Money, I Think We’ll Declare Bankruptcy Now


Today, federal troops surrounded the GM plant in Detriot Michigan. New GM CEO and President Barack Obama has demanded that “old” GM CEO come out and surrender his paychecks

51 rightside  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:19am

re: #22 Nevergiveup

Hey Doc,

OT- How does the dt rate look as far as manning goes?

52 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:24am

re: #40 Dianna

I think they already are.

At least, to go by the poem read at the inauguration.

OK. Where’s the my towel and the airlock?

53 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:35am

re: #38 barry the baptist

This is a damn shame. There are 2 realities that exist:

1- reality for the polticians.
2- reality for the peasants.

I am thinking that Guy Fawkes had it right all those years ago…….

Guy Fawkes was an idiot.

You’re thinking of V for Vendetta, which is quite a different proposition.

54 mattm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:48am

re: #26 doppelganglander

Actually, it’s the crappy quality that discourages people from buying GM cars. Any prospect of getting the bailout money back?

I disagree. My family has for the most part owned GM cars and trucks. No major problems. Our two chevys are near or over 100K and have only had routine maintenance.

55 simonml  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:13:55am

My Honda has enough American parts in it to qualify as an American car. GM has the same percentage. Probably 51%

56 RaiderDan  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:14:05am

The reality of this is that the taxpayer is really funding Obama’s reelection campaign. GM takes money from the feds (ie the taxpayer), and that money is paid to the GM workers, who in turn fork over a portion of their paychecks to the UAW in union dues, those union dues of course become campaign funds for Obama and other Democrats. Its no wonder that Obama is continuing to feed this bottomless pit, since there’s really no downside politically for him. The UAW is getting taxpayer money. YOUR MONEY.

Grrrr.

57 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:14:08am

re: #19 Dianna

Why didn’t they just do that the first time?


I think the old CEO ruled it out because all of the free money with no conditions or oversight. Once they figured out the government expected them to do stuff (like cut outrageous executive salaries) the plan didn’t look so appealing.

58 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:14:16am

re: #52 Kosh’s Shadow

OK. Where’s the my towel and the airlock?

Just remember, the answer is 42.

59 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:14:24am

Bankruptcy will move the legacy costs - pension and healthcare - to the government. These account for well over 2/3 of debt on the automaker’s balance sheets.

The Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation’s monthly pension maxes out at $4,500 this year. PBGC does not cover medical coverage at all. UAW reitrees will get straight medicare.

The stockholders get wiped out and the bond holders - who were willing to take a 2/3 haircut if labor gave significant cuts - will be at the head of the line.

They should have did this last fall.

60 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:14:26am

re: #51 rightside

Hey Doc,

OT- How does the dt rate look as far as manning goes?

dt rate?

61 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:14:35am

This whole thing is amazing to me. Let the freakin’ company fail, already; keeping it on life-support, with constant transfusions and give-backs of the people’s blood (our cash) just prolongs the agony for everybody. Unless, of course, that’s the whole point.

62 yma o hyd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:14:45am

re: #47 slterry40

How long until Obama fires this clear thinking individual?

As soon as he’s back from his trip to Europe and Turkey …

63 doppelganglander  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:14:50am

re: #31 Dianna

No. Though I do have niblings.

I thought I was the only one who used that word!

64 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:14am

re: #58 Ford_Prefect

Just remember, the answer is 42.

Oh shhhhh…shhhh! The program is back on……..

65 Haole  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:15am

Let’s talk about Michelle’s arms.

/

66 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:18am

Bankruptcy/reorganization may be the only way to CHANGE labor unions’ stranglehold. If Obama lets these businesses touch ACORN/union thugs at all.

67 rightside  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:25am

re: #60 Nevergiveup

DT dental tech? Don’t they still have those?

68 Diamond Bullet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:29am

Will bankruptcy prevent Obama from firing the new CEO? That’s got to be a fun spot — the chair is still warm from your predecessor’s corpse and the phone’s already ringing with calls from Washington. Better shape up or the Red Queen will lop your head off too.

69 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:33am

In other news, Obama announced today he is giving another $2 trillion bailout to the Stanley Steamer Automobile Corporation and the Graf Zeppelin Airship Works.

70 badger1970  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:38am

re: #7 buzzsawmonkey

Ah, those intelligent dolphins and the humans who feed them.

71 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:41am

re: #62 yma o hyd

As soon as he’s back from his trip to Europe and Turkey …

Are they going to install a Fiat engine into Air Force One while they are over there?

72 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:51am

re: #41 zombie

A major part of the problem is that government has, since 1932, been on the wrong side of how to help our companies. First they forced them to accept the UAW. Then they throw CAFE rules on them, forcing them to build cars no one wants. Everytime they get somewhere, the government again changes the rules. And let’s not even talk about the role of muckraker Ralph Nader and the media bias that goes on, the same bias that we see on display and complain about here with respect to our military.

73 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:52am

re: #58 Ford_Prefect

Just remember, the answer is 42.

It sure as hell ain’t 44.

74 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:54am

re: #57 Killgore Trout

The government also expected them to discontinue more than half of their profitable automobiles. That might have something to do with it.

75 Sleepyone  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:15:55am

I want my money back!

76 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:16:16am

re: #32 Kosh’s Shadow

We’ll have the Vogons running our country soon.

Don’t Panic, Obama has the Heart of Gold.

But start working on your poetry.

77 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:16:18am

re: #63 doppelganglander

I thought I was the only one who used that word!

I got it from an anthro professor, before my nephew’s sex was known.

78 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:16:23am

re: #73 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

It sure as hell ain’t 44.

Ha! lol.

79 dhg4  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:16:26am

re: #27 LGoPs

If this guys not careful he’s gonna be sleeping with the fish if he crosses the O…..
/

Yes it does seem a little like Don Barack saying “Hey, buddy, nice company you’ve got here; shame if anything should happen to it. Maybe you oughta consider a new CEO…”

80 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:16:31am

re: #57 Killgore Trout

I think the old CEO ruled it out because all of the free money with no conditions or oversight. Once they figured out the government expected them to do stuff (like cut outrageous executive salaries) the plan didn’t look so appealing.

The Obama administration has decided that there is no need for luthiers, so, luthiers will have to shut down shop and find other employment before they will receive any breaks from the government.

81 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:16:41am

re: #65 Haole

Let’s talk about Michelle’s arms.

/

I’m all confused about this 2nd Amendment stuff. Does it cover Michelle’s right to bare arms or is it for the right to arm bears?
/ Moonbat dilemma

82 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:16:47am

re: #69 zombie

In other news, Obama announced today he is giving another $2 trillion bailout to the Stanley Steamer Automobile Corporation and the Graf Zeppelin Airship Works.

But what about Consolidated Spats and Gaiters?

83 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:16:52am

Anyone want to check history? I think the first GM bailout was under Reagan. We’ve been wasting money on the pricks for decades. It’s been a bipartisan effort.

84 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:06am

re: #76 itellu3times

Don’t Panic, Obama has the Heart of Gold.

But start working on your poetry.

And remember, when all hell breaks loose, follow the mice.

85 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:14am

finally a sensible idea…who ever came up with this should get a big fat BONUS!…GM makes cars for 70$/man hour and across the street Toyota makes an even better car for 45$….break the UAW and restructure…problem solved

86 Sleepyone  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:17am

I hope all you retired and current UAW members are enjoying my tax dollars. I expect a Christmas card.

87 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:21am

re: #58 Ford_Prefect

Just remember, the answer is 42.

How I wish we had Zaphod for President!
Too bad that is infinitely improbable.

88 yma o hyd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:30am

re: #71 Ford_Prefect

Are they going to install a Fiat engine into Air Force One while they are over there?

Why not - would be fun to watch it fly back …

//////////////

89 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:31am
90 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:48am

Hold on, I’ll go stick my head in a bucket.

91 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:55am

Again, GM should never have been given one red cent.

This is an embarrassment.

92 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:56am

re: #87 Kosh’s Shadow

How I wish we had Zaphod for President!
Too bad that is infinitely improbable.

I don’t know, the guy’s pretty good at ping-pong.

93 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:57am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

Anyone want to check history? I think the first GM bailout was under Reagan. We’ve been wasting money on the pricks for decades. It’s been a bipartisan effort.

Wasn’t that Chrysler? And didn’t they pay it back?

94 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:17:58am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

Anyone want to check history? I think the first GM bailout was under Reagan. We’ve been wasting money on the pricks for decades. It’s been a bipartisan effort.

And I was mad about it back then, too.

95 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:18:06am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

Anyone want to check history? I think the first GM bailout was under Reagan. We’ve been wasting money on the pricks for decades. It’s been a bipartisan effort.

Nope, try again, Killgore. Chrysler was given a loan guarantee by the government in 1979-80. They paid it back early, with interest. That’s the only “bailout” to date.

96 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:18:11am

re: #67 rightside

DT dental tech? Don’t they still have those?

Well yes and no—They are all HM’s now- Hospital Corpsman. Everybody is suppose to be cross trained, but that doesn’t work as well as it should. But it all seems to work out. We got this new Dental Officer who seems to be afraid to see patients and just likes to take x-rays when we are short enlisted? Hey it works for me.

97 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:18:22am

re: #59 jester6

Bankruptcy will move the legacy costs - pension and healthcare - to the government. These account for well over 2/3 of debt on the automaker’s balance sheets.

The Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation’s monthly pension maxes out at $4,500 this year. PBGC does not cover medical coverage at all. UAW reitrees will get straight medicare.

The stockholders get wiped out and the bond holders - who were willing to take a 2/3 haircut if labor gave significant cuts - will be at the head of the line.

They should have did this last fall.

* * **
Great, so we taxpayers get to pay fat ass labor union employees overly generous benefits—out of my severance pay while I find work!

98 Baier  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:18:31am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

The First GM bailout actually benefited the tax payer, as it was more of a loan. This is free money that will do nothing but weaken our free market system.

99 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:18:33am

re: #87 Kosh’s Shadow

How I wish we had Zaphod for President!
Too bad that is infinitely improbable.

Hell, I’ll take Marvin the paranoid android at this point.

100 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:18:38am
101 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:18:42am

re: #87 Kosh’s Shadow

How I wish we had Zaphod for President!
Too bad that is infinitely improbable.

At least he was honest. “I like it so much, I’d like to steal it!”

102 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:18:45am

re: #80 Walter L. Newton


The Obama administration has decided that there is no need for luthiers, so, luthiers will have to shut down shop and find other employment before they will receive any breaks from the government.


I’m not receiving bailout money so the government is out of my business.

103 Diamond Bullet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:01am

re: #69 zombie

In other news, Obama announced today he is giving another $2 trillion bailout to the Stanley Steamer Automobile Corporation and the Graf Zeppelin Airship Works.

Heh, I was thinking this earlier today. “United Buggy Whip & Hand Churn is too big to fail!”

104 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:02am

re: #95 Honorary Yooper

Nope, try again, Killgore. Chrysler was given a loan guarantee by the government in 1979-80. They paid it back early, with interest. That’s the only “bailout” to date.

And we made money on the warrants

105 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:05am

re: #69 zombie

In other news, Obama announced today he is giving another $2 trillion bailout to the Stanley Steamer Automobile Corporation and the Graf Zeppelin Airship Works.

Sorry, the Goodyear Airship Company; he’s keeping it American.
(Goodyear did indeed build airships; look up the Akron and the Macon; huge airship aircraft carriers.)

106 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:05am

re: #99 Ford_Prefect

Hell, I’ll take Marvin the paranoid android at this point.

I’d take the towel.

107 dhg4  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:06am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

Anyone want to check history? I think the first GM bailout was under Reagan. We’ve been wasting money on the pricks for decades. It’s been a bipartisan effort.

I think it was a Chrysler bailout under Carter.

108 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:14am

Highly relevant:
From Daniel Ikenson at Cato:
cato-at-liberty.org


President Obama’s newly discovered prudence with taxpayer money and his tough-love approach to GM and Chrysler would both have more credibility if he hadn’t demanded Rick Wagoner’s resignation, as well. By imposing operational conditions normally reserved for boards of directors, the administration is now bound to the infamous “Pottery Barn” rule: you break it, you buy it. If things go further south, the government is now complicit.

It also means that Wagoner was perceived as an obstacle to whatever plans the administration has for GM. And that’s the real source of concern. If getting these companies back on their feet is the objective, a bankruptcy judge can make a determination pretty quickly about the viability of the firms and the steps necessary to get there. But if the objective is something more grandiose, such as transforming the industry into a model of green production, government oversight and close scrutiny of operations will be necessary. CEOs must be compliant and pliant. It is worth noting that a return to profitability and the metamorphosis of the industry according to a government script work at cross purposes.

109 jdog29  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:28am

This was ALWAYS the plan.

110 brookly red  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:32am

I didn’t read all the posts, so it may have been said already but this reminds me of “the producers”

111 mattm  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:32am

If Ch. 11 allows GM to rid them selves of the current Union Contracts and let them run a car company that makes the cars people want and not a heath and welfare business that makes some cars on the side ti will encourage me to buy a GM product if it looks like it will let them succeed.

Get rid of/loosen the Unions grip and you will see a huge difference.

112 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:34am

Damn, I need my towel.

113 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:35am

Romney ‘12 ad:

“Sick of this garbage yet?”

114 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:38am

re: #61 Guanxi88

This whole thing is amazing to me. Let the freakin’ company fail, already; keeping it on life-support, with constant transfusions and give-backs of the people’s blood (our cash) just prolongs the agony for everybody. Unless, of course, that’s the whole point.

Letting them fail is the way to let the natural selection process proceed. Survival of the fittest applies to business as well as to nature. As a matter of fact macroeconomics is like a force of nature. Anyone naive enough to think that they can centrally plan it is as crazy as one attempting to tame hurricanes or tornadoes.

115 rightside  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:39am

re: #96 Nevergiveup


OK, son was looking to learn dental stuff, but has to become an corpsman first? Is the manning level for it way up there?

116 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:41am

re: #93 Dianna

I don’t know. I googled a little bit but most stuff is on the current situation.

117 yma o hyd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:47am

re: #74 Lincolntf

The government also expected them to discontinue more than half of their profitable automobiles. That might have something to do with it.

One has to wonder that they actually allow them to build any cars at all, what with the carbon footprint, the globull warming and all that jazz …

118 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:48am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

I’m not receiving bailout money so the government is out of my business.

better check your tax returns again!

119 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:19:51am

re: #106 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I’d take the towel.

Man I could use a pan galactic gargleblaster about now.

120 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:12am

re: #99 Ford_Prefect

Hell, I’ll take Marvin the paranoid android at this point.

At least he has a brain the size of a planet, instead of an ego the size of a planet.

121 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:19am
122 doppelganglander  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:23am

re: #54 mattm

I disagree. My family has for the most part owned GM cars and trucks. No major problems. Our two chevys are near or over 100K and have only had routine maintenance.

I’m glad you’ve had a good experience. I grew up in a Chevy/Buick family, although I’ve had Toyotas since 1992 and wouldn’t go back.

123 father_of_10  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:23am

re: #107 dhg4

I think it was a Chrysler bailout under Carter.

It was only a loan guarantee then, and Lee paid it all back and the company made money.

124 Ben Hur  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:25am

Did the Union get its money for supporting The One?

125 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:28am

re: #75 Sleepyone

I want my money back!

* * * *
Plant a recession garden if you want to see any return on your investment. Cause you’ll never see your bailout dollars again.

126 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:33am

re: #99 Ford_Prefect

Hell, I’ll take Marvin the paranoid android at this point.

Actually, I think that would be Geithner. Take another look at him. Makes more sense now! “Brain the size of a planet, …” well forehead anyway.

127 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:38am

re: #107 dhg4

Thanks for the fact check. Nice find.

128 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:43am

re: #119 Ford_Prefect

Man I could use a pan galactic gargleblaster about now.

Hell, I’d settle for corn-squeezin’s and Mountain Dew at this point.

129 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:54am

re: #120 Kosh’s Shadow

At least he has a brain the size of a planet, instead of an ego the size of a planet.

Even Dent Arthur Dent would be better.

130 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:55am

It’s what I’d do if I was in charge of GM. They have to be sick of the governmental dog-and-pony-show by now. The more the Obama Administration tries to control them, the harder it becomes for them to run and possibly fix their business. And bankruptcy is the only way to get out from under the union, which is still refusing to take any concessions, regardless of how they spin it.

131 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:20:57am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

I’m not receiving bailout money so the government is out of my business.

For now, wait until the next round of new ideas brought to you by “Obama’s European Socialist Vacation.”

And you know what my point was, stop being obtuse.

132 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:21:23am

re: #96 Nevergiveup

Well yes and no—They are all HM’s now- Hospital Corpsman. Everybody is suppose to be cross trained, but that doesn’t work as well as it should. But it all seems to work out. We got this new Dental Officer who seems to be afraid to see patients and just likes to take x-rays when we are short enlisted? Hey it works for me.

“Cross-training” among fields of work that are related, but each requires a level of experience and expertise in order to perform well - it never really works out the way it sounds like it will on paper.

133 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:21:27am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

Anyone want to check history? I think the first GM bailout was under Reagan. We’ve been wasting money on the pricks for decades. It’s been a bipartisan effort.

* * *
Lee Iacocca paid back that bailout in two years.

134 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:21:31am

re: #115 rightside

OK, son was looking to learn dental stuff, but has to become an corpsman first? Is the manning level for it way up there?

Not really sure. I’ll ask around for you.

135 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:21:31am
136 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:21:31am

re: #39 Kosh’s Shadow

GM doesn’t make many parts anymore except engines. They sold off Delphi which made specialized parts like wiring harnesses and electronics. Most engine parts, including electronic ignition components, are re manufactured by companies in the aftermarket.

Brakes, ignition, steering and suspension, exhaust are all made by third parties and the parts are used on various makes and models. Those suppliers are happy to supply the data to the aftermarket so they can sell more stuff.

The car manufacturers already try to keep data from going to anyone except their dealers, but the automotive aftermarket is a $100 billion dollar plus industry.

Bottom line, bankruptcy will not effect the availability of parts. Even if the suppliers go broke someone is going to buy the plants and keep the lines running.

137 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:21:40am

re: #116 Killgore Trout

I expect it’s buried - but someone above answered it. Loan guarantees were given to Chrysler in 1979-80, paid back early, with interest.

138 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:21:46am

re: #131 Walter L. Newton

stop being obtuse.


What’s obtuse?
/

139 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:21:49am

Chrysler paid their loan back on time…fact

140 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:22:14am

re: #138 Killgore Trout

What’s obtuse?
/

It’s kinda like an oval, but sharper.

141 Bloodnok  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:22:30am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

Anyone want to check history? I think the first GM bailout was under Reagan. We’ve been wasting money on the pricks for decades. It’s been a bipartisan effort.

The Chrysler Loan Guarantee Act is listed as being passed on December 20, 1979. Carter signed it into law in January, 1980.

142 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:22:31am

BREAKING:
President Obama announces another $500 billion bailout package for Captain Percy’s TransAtlantic Slave Transport Service, and the Niagara Falls Direct Current Electrical Company.

143 rightside  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:22:34am

re: #134 Nevergiveup

Thanks Doc.

144 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:22:44am

re: #139 albusteve

Chrysler paid their loan back on time…fact

But they are back at the trough again?

145 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:22:58am

re: #138 Killgore Trout

What’s obtuse?
/

The last woman to get picked up in the bar Saturday night!

146 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:23:09am

If only Obama really was only mostly harmless.

147 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:23:11am

re: #124 Ben Hur

Did the Union get its money for supporting The One?

Short answer :

Fuckin’ A.

148 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:23:31am

re: #144 Nevergiveup

But they are back at the trough again?

Ricardo Montelban passed away.

149 Erik The Red  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:23:33am

re: #142 zombie

BREAKING:
President Obama announces another $500 billion bailout package for Captain Percy’s TransAtlantic Slave Transport Service, and the Niagara Falls Direct Current Electrical Company.

What makes me think that you are pissed off?

150 badger1970  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:23:34am

re: #126 itellu3times

“You make me verrryyyyy angry.”, then walks off in a huff.

151 jdog29  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:23:34am

“Bankruptcies are like labor strikes in baseball, when the next one scheduled?” Donald Trump

152 so.cal.swede  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:23:39am

ok enough with the hhgttg

153 Bloodnok  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:23:39am

re: #141 Bloodnok

The Chrysler Loan Guarantee Act is listed as being passed on December 20, 1979. Carter signed it into law in January, 1980.

I’m a day late and a dollar short on that one…

154 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:23:55am

re: #144 Nevergiveup

But they are back at the trough again?

I don’t know what’s going on….

155 gmsc  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:24:02am

re: #138 Killgore Trout

What’s obtuse?
/

Any angle greater than 90 degrees, in other words: not sharp.

156 Ben Hur  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:24:12am

re: #147 SasquatchOnSteroids

Short answer :

Fuckin’ A.


The One’s motivation all along.

157 itellu3times  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:24:12am

re: #146 Ford_Prefect

If only Obama really was only mostly harmless.

We’ll all be spending the next four years dead, for tax reasons.

158 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:24:17am

re: #135 MandyManners

Wasn’t Iaccoca the CEO of Chrysler who turned it around?

Yes, but he claimed that the K Car was a good car. I nearly got smushed getting onto I-280 in one, though I stood on the accelerator and screamed in terror.

159 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:24:20am

re: #19 Dianna

Why didn’t they just do that the first time?

Probably because they expected a fair deal from the government. A loan they could pay back some day. Maybe it was pie-in-the-sky even then, but GM probably wanted to succeed without going bankrupt.

160 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:24:49am

re: #144 Nevergiveup

But they are back at the trough again?

Yep.

161 jorline  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:25:00am

Avanti, I left this for you on the previous thread.

re: #581 avanti

If you study the growth of bonuses, you might rethink what is fair, and what is stockholder rape. If a CEO made billions in profit, and was paid even a 10 million dollar bonus I would not object. If he lost billions and was paid millions, I’d be concerned. If he lost billions and accepted the tax payers help and was paid millions, I’d demand OUR money back.

Avanti…key word is stockholders. Stockholders vote for the Board of Directors and the Board appoints the CEO. If the CEO doesn’t make the company money the Board should fire him/her. If the Board doesn’t take action the Stockholders should fire the Board. If the company doesn’t turn a profit they go out of business.

Simple solution for these problems and the government is NOT the answer!

Stockholder get earning statements…read them and vote your shares.

162 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:25:08am

re: #97 alegrias

* * **
Great, so we taxpayers get to pay fat ass labor union employees overly generous benefits—out of my severance pay while I find work!

PBGC is actually funded by fees charged to the pension plans. It is very similar to the FDIC.

And 401ks are not protected by PBGC. That’s why those of use without “defined benefit plans” are really in trouble.

163 markx  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:25:20am

Let me see…

Go into your local Chevrolet dealership, staffed by government employees.
Selling government spec vehicles.
With AmeriCorps trained mechanics.
Backed with an official US Government warrantee.

Yeah, the PERFECT business model.

Honda & Toyota execs must be ROFLMO in Toyko…

164 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:25:22am

re: #137 Dianna

Do we know the conditions of the current bailout? I expect everybody to claim it was just free money but does anyone know what the conditions are and how/when the money is supposed to be returned?

165 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:25:31am

re: #157 itellu3times

We’ll all be spending the next four years dead, for tax reasons.

Well, my little sideline business is doing something like that right now.

166 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:25:34am

re: #148 itellu3times

Ricardo Montelban passed away.

That’s a marvelous retort!

167 Ben Hur  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:25:46am

re: #147 SasquatchOnSteroids

Short answer :

Fuckin’ A.

Did the Joos get their money?

168 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:25:51am
169 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:25:55am

re: #135 MandyManners

Wasn’t Iaccoca the CEO of Chrysler who turned it around?

Hell, and all these years I thought he was the guy that took over in Iran……….The Iaccocca Khomeini. I’ll be damned.
/

170 Eowyn2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:26:01am

re: #12 reine.de.tout

Barack ‘08!

Baroke ‘09!

If it isn’t Baroke, then it doesn’t NEED to be fixed.

171 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:26:02am

re: #83 Killgore Trout

Anyone want to check history? I think the first GM bailout was under Reagan. We’ve been wasting money on the pricks for decades. It’s been a bipartisan effort.

In the case of Chrysler though, the company paid back every cent of the government’s money, with interest.

That’s obviously not going to happen this time.

172 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:26:03am

re: #157 itellu3times

We’ll all be spending the next four years dead, for tax reasons.

“Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so.”
-Ford Prefect.

173 Athos  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:26:05am

re: #144 Nevergiveup

But they are back at the trough again?

Now that they have a tentative merger with Fiat, its unclear to how much additional funds they may need from the government to fund their ongoing operations.

I would venture to say that like GM, Chrysler also needs some substantial management changes as well as a reduction in their union costs in order to return to being a competitive company.

174 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:26:12am

re: #164 Killgore Trout

Do we know the conditions of the current bailout? I expect everybody to claim it was just free money but does anyone know what the conditions are and how/when the money is supposed to be returned?

I think that little detail has been left undefined? Or, at least, I can’t find it.

175 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:26:14am

re: #164 Killgore Trout

Do we know the conditions of the current bailout? I expect everybody to claim it was just free money but does anyone know what the conditions are and how/when the money is supposed to be returned?

it is not going to be returned

176 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:26:18am

re: #167 Ben Hur

Did the Joos get their money?

I didn’t get mine; anybody know the over-under on when we should expect the shekels?

177 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:26:25am

OT

Last Call

NEW YORKERS: Vote today in your 20th congressional district to replace the woman who took Hillary’s Senate Seat.

Mr. Tedisco (R) vs. Mr. Murphy (D).

178 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:26:47am

re: #167 Ben Hur

Did the Joos get their money?

HA ! Surely you jest !?
I know, don’t call me Shirley.

179 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:27:06am

re: #173 Athos


I would venture to say that like GM, Chrysler also needs some substantial management changes as well as a reduction in their union costs in order to return to being a competitive company.


Probably.
But why should this be MY problem?

180 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:27:11am

re: #173 Athos

Now that they have a tentative merger with Fiat, its unclear to how much additional funds they may need from the government to fund their ongoing operations.

I would venture to say that like GM, Chrysler also needs some substantial management changes as well as a reduction in their union costs in order to return to being a competitive company.

That’s not signed sealed and delivered yet is it?

181 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:27:13am
182 Dianna  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:27:26am

re: #168 MandyManners

My father’s mother had one. It lasted forever.

I’m sorry.

//

183 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:27:32am

re: #172 Ford_Prefect

“Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so.”
-Ford Prefect.

Life is wasted on the living.

184 robdouth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:27:34am

Who wants to bet that through all the restructuring, they won’t touch the unions. They may force certain pay cuts through, but they’ll either leave the unions alone or laud them as the agents of change that helped pull of the restructuring when in actuality they are the dead weight dragging this leviathon to the bottom.

185 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:27:35am

re: #164 Killgore Trout

Congress never even read the bill, remember? How would we know what is really in it? The first time we got a look at the AIG text in the bill was when it came up in a gratuitous Capitol Hill grilling.

186 FredWM  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:27:41am

So what exactly did we get for the 50 quadrillion buck GM got since last fall? At that time it was obvious that GM’s only two choices were bankruptcy or never-ending life support from the federal government. So we chose the worse of both worlds: tens of billions in life support AND bankruptcy.

187 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:27:46am

re: #163 markx

Honda & Toyota execs must be ROFLMO in Toyko…


Yes, until the gov’t restircts there market share.

188 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:28:01am

re: #166 Nevergiveup

That’s a marvelous retort!

I like that word. Also means “I’d like another piece of cake, please”

189 Russkilitlover  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:28:10am

re: #141 Bloodnok

The Chrysler Loan Guarantee Act is listed as being passed on December 20, 1979. Carter signed it into law in January, 1980.

And they paid it back. With interest. Faster than the loan terms.

190 markx  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:28:11am

re: #186 FredWM

So what exactly did we get for the 50 quadrillion buck GM got since last fall?

90 days delay

191 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:28:28am

re: #171 Charles

In the case of Chrysler though, the company paid back every cent of the government’s money, with interest.

That’s obviously not going to happen this time.

This time the government doesn’t really want it back. As long as that loan is out they have leverage to do what they want with the company. If they were to pay it back they could say “screw you Washington, we aren’t firing our CEO or merging with f*cking Fiat.”

192 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:28:49am

Hey Obama.

GO FUCK YOUR STIMULUS BAILOUTS!

Just needed to be said.

193 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:28:51am

re: #166 Nevergiveup

That’s a marvelous retort!

It’s also a very important part of a still, which I recommend all lizards learn to build and run, in anticipation of the need for additional, off-the-books, cash-flow.

194 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:29:09am

giving tax money to the car makers is is funding the vote collusion between the feds and the unions…it is immoral and should be illegal…BO is a fucking gangster….there is no way around is there avanti

195 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:29:18am

re: #189 Russkilitlover

And they paid it back. With interest. Faster than the loan terms.

And we made money on the warrants

196 Ben Hur  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:29:23am

$50 says He blames Bush.

197 Harry Tuttle  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:29:41am

re: #41 zombie

Frankly, I’m sick of this propping up of failed businesses. It only masks the problem and prolongs the pain.

Let failing companies fail. Let them crash and burn. Take the economic hit. And then let better-run companies step in to fill the gap in the market.

That’s how innovation happens, and that’s the fastest ways for economies to get back on their feet.

But by keeping sick and mismanaged companies afloat with our taxpayer money is a recipe for permanent stagnation.

The road ahead is paved with the corpses of stodgy failed corporations.

Allowing the profitable to succeed and the unprofitable to fail is kind of the point of capitalism. It’s how the whole effing thing works.

198 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:29:49am

Mom: “What do you have to say for yourself, Barack”?

Obama: “Umm…Bush started it”!

199 Erik The Red  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:30:04am

re: #196 Ben Hur

$50 says He blames Bush.

Make that 50 gazillion.

200 Opinionated  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:30:08am

re: #142 zombie

BREAKING:
President Obama announces another $500 billion bailout package for Captain Percy’s TransAtlantic Slave Transport Service, and the Niagara Falls Direct Current Electrical Company.

If we are going to give to made up groups:

Given a choice, I rather give to the fictional Captain Percy’s TransAtlantic Slave Transport Service, and the Niagara Falls Direct Current Electrical Company. then to the “Palestinians”.

201 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:30:28am

re: #196 Ben Hur

$50 says He blames Bush.

I’m not taking that bet!

202 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:30:37am

re: #186 FredWM

So what exactly did we get for the 50 quadrillion buck GM got since last fall? At that time it was obvious that GM’s only two choices were bankruptcy or never-ending life support from the federal government. So we chose the worse of both worlds: tens of billions in life support AND bankruptcy.


Its a medical truism that the biggest patient expenditures generally come in the last weeks/months of life.

The true worst outcome here would be more and more bailouts. At least bankruptcy puts an end to this.

The best outcome SHOULD have been bankruptcy with no gov’t intervention at all. It would be more or less the same outcome, only the taxpayers wouldn’t be on the hook for any of it.

203 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:30:43am

re: #189 Russkilitlover

And they paid it back. With interest. Faster than the loan terms.

* * * *
No doubt Iacocca’s Chrysler company was able to repay the loans, since once CARTER left the scene on glorious January 20, 1981, the country RECOVERED from democrat malaise in record time. Happy days were here again once that schlub left the White House.

204 jdog29  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:31:03am

“Dang, why didn’t I think of that?” Rick Wagoner

205 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:31:12am

If GM and Chrysler fold what marques do you think that Ford will pick up and which might resurrect as niche independents or be picked up by others?

My guess is Jeep goes to Ford, Opel to VW or Mercedes.

Cadillac, GMC and Chevrolet should be worth something to somebody. I expect Buick, Pontiac and Saturn to disappear.

206 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:31:31am

I don’t know if you listened to Obama’s speech on the auto industry yesterday. He spent a long time talking about bankruptcy and how it does not necessarily mean liquidation.

Wagoner was dead set against bankruptcy. So was the UAW because they know it means their pensions and healthcare will be gone.

The government and the bond holders are secured creditors and they will be at the head of the table in bankruptcy proceedings.

Obama’s speech + Wagoner’s departure + Henderson’s comments tell me bankruptcy is a done deal.

207 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:31:40am

pandering on an astronomical level….buying power
I hate the feds

208 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:31:40am

re: #201 NukeAtomrod

re: #196 Ben Hur

$50 says He blames Bush.

I’m not taking that bet!


$50 isn’t going to be worth very much soon anyway.

209 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:31:44am

re: #170 Eowyn2

If it isn’t Baroke, then it doesn’t NEED to be fixed.

There was a classical music station here in Philly (that has since gone under), whose morning show was called “Baroque & Eggs.”

210 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:31:49am

re: #191 Ford_Prefect

Which, apart from the practical differences between Chrysler-Carter and GM-Obama, is the big philosophical difference. This bailout is less about the economy than it is about extending Government control beyond the limits imposed on Government by the Constitution.

211 Erik The Red  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:32:06am

re: #205 lifeofthemind

If GM and Chrysler fold what marques do you think that Ford will pick up and which might resurrect as niche independents or be picked up by others?

My guess is Jeep goes to Ford, Opel to VW or Mercedes.

Cadillac, GMC and Chevrolet should be worth something to somebody. I expect Buick, Pontiac and Saturn to disappear.

I want the Vette.

212 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:32:17am

re: #207 albusteve

pandering on an astronomical level….buying power
I hate the feds

I don’t have as much of problem with people buying power as I do with them using my money to buy power to use against me.

213 Kragar  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:32:25am

re: #208 looking closely

$50 isn’t going to be worth very much soon anyway.

Yet bricks of ammo on the other hand…

214 Athos  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:32:30am

re: #179 looking closely

Probably.
But why should this be MY problem?

It shouldn’t be the problem of the taxpayers - at least in the way it is being explained. The auto companies should be forced into Chapter 11 and undergo restructuring and modification of its contracts via the bankruptcy process. If there are no investors to provide operating capital during the time of Chap 11, then a case can be made for the US government to loan funds for these purposes to the companies with specific limits and timeframes defined around the conditions of these funds like the 1979-80 loan to Chrysler and approved specfiically by Congress representing the taxpayer. But to just toss taxpayer money at the companies and not address the fundamental conditions, many established by the unions and government, which made the companies unviable is nothing but irresponsible behavior.

The selective nature of the current Administration regarding what is and is not irresponsible behavior is something that gets far too little attention.

215 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:32:31am

re: #208 looking closely

$50 isn’t going to be worth very much soon anyway.

It’ll buy me a pack of cigarettes.

216 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:33:01am
217 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:33:03am

re: #213 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yet bricks of ammo on the other hand…

Yes, they will retain value better than a Toyota

218 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:33:04am

re: #181 MandyManners

Okay, Laverne.

You gonna Make our dreams come true ?

219 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:33:12am

re: #211 Erik The Red

I want the Vette.

Think Honda might want Chevrolet?

220 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:33:12am
221 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:33:15am

re: #206 jester6

Obama’s speech + Wagoner’s departure + Henderson’s comments tell me bankruptcy is a done deal.


Ding! We have a winner.

See post #108 above.

Money quote:

It also means that Wagoner was perceived as an obstacle to whatever plans the administration has for GM.
222 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:33:18am

re: #205 lifeofthemind

Cadillac, GMC and Chevrolet should be worth something to somebody. I expect Buick, Pontiac and Saturn to disappear.

Saturn is profitable. I think GMC is also. Caddy, Chevy, Pontaic are all dogs money wise

223 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:34:03am

re: #184 robdouth

Who wants to bet that through all the restructuring, they won’t touch the unions. They may force certain pay cuts through, but they’ll either leave the unions alone or laud them as the agents of change that helped pull of the restructuring when in actuality they are the dead weight dragging this leviathon to the bottom.

They can’t touch anything to do with a union contract. Like I said in the earlier thread, the unions will file a gazillion unfair labor practice suits if one single thing is changed in their current contract. I have seen them file a ULP because the price of a soda in a machine at work went up by 5 cents.

I agree that the government is going to leave the unions alone at this point.

224 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:34:14am

Pres. Obama is about to land in London.

May they give Obama the straight talk Daniel Hannan gave Prime Minister Brown last week.

You Have Run Out of Our Money!

225 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:34:22am
226 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:34:43am

re: #200 Opinionated

If we are going to give to made up groups:

Given a choice, I rather give to the fictional Captain Percy’s TransAtlantic Slave Transport Service, and the Niagara Falls Direct Current Electrical Company. then to the “Palestinians”.

Has the White Star Line put in a request for a “Bail Out” yet?

227 capitalist piglet  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:35:04am

re: #226 Nevergiveup

Has the White Star Line put in a request for a “Bail Out” yet?

British company…but hey, why not?

228 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:35:08am

re: #217 Leonidas Hoplite

Yes, they [ammo] will retain value better than a Toyota

Actually ammo is a pretty good investment.

Not only its it inflation resistant, but its been going up at 15% a year for the last several, with no trend towards reversal (yet).

Unfortunately, my 401k plan doesn’t offer an “ammo” fund.

229 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:35:11am
230 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:35:19am

re: #225 buzzsawmonkey

Just wait; we go a little farther down the Socialist road and Obama will normalize relations with Cuba. You’ll be able to go down there and get all the cheap tobacco you want.

Yeah, but who could afford it, by then?

231 badger1970  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:35:22am

re: #226 Nevergiveup

It’s been put on ice.

232 Caboose  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:35:27am

Well, I was considering a Chevy HHR, but I guess that is out of the question now (maybe a used one in a few years). And since it looks like my son may have just landed a job at a Nissan dealership, I may just have to look at their line of cars (I wish that they had an updated version of the old early ‘70’s Datsun 510 or the late ‘60’s 2000 convertible.)

It’s funny, I have a soft spot for the AMC line of cars; whoda thunk that GM would be facing a similar future? (Chrysler has been in trouble for a long time, so I’m not surprised about them.)

233 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:35:49am

re: #222 sattv4u2

Cadillac, GMC and Chevrolet should be worth something to somebody. I expect Buick, Pontiac and Saturn to disappear.

Saturn is profitable. I think GMC is also. Caddy, Chevy, Pontaic are all dogs money wise

I like Caddy. I hope they survive somehow……..

234 Nevergiveup  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:35:54am

re: #227 capitalist piglet

British company…but hey, why not?

I hear they are going to ask for a Titanic amount.

235 Opinionated  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:35:55am

If the topic is speciffically GM, it’s off topic.

If the topic is how Obama is screwing up, here is something under the radar I just read that has depressed me.


Another day, another scary nomination
By David Limbaugh

excerpts:

…..So while you should be mortified by his dictatorial power grab with General Motors, please don’t miss his recent nomination of former Yale Law School Dean Harold Koh as legal adviser for the State Department.

In his introductory remarks, Koh said the United States, along with North Korea and Iran, form “the axis of disobedience,” that is, those nations “whose disobedience with international law has attracted global attention after Sept. 11.” Are you beginning to see the picture here?

It’s no surprise to me that President Obama seeks to install as assistant State Department legal counsel a man who, like George Soros and a host of ultra-left-wing bloggers, believes America is always the bad guy and that we should rehabilitate ourselves through following the wisdom of foreign nations and international bodies.

jewishworldreview.com

236 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:36:15am

re: #221 looking closely

A business partner of mine is submitting a bid to a tier 2 automotive supplier today. I just called him and told him they will have to pay upfront for the project.

237 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:36:16am
238 Eowyn2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:36:37am

re: #117 yma o hyd

One has to wonder that they actually allow them to build any cars at all, what with the carbon footprint, the gloorebull warming and all—-that—-jazz …

fify

239 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:36:49am

re: #225 buzzsawmonkey

Just wait; we go a little farther down the Socialist road and Obama will normalize relations with Cuba. You’ll be able to go down there and get all the cheap tobacco you want.

Hold on just a minute there, me bucko. That wouldn’t be fair, so of course you will pay more so that it will be a fair trade. And, since you’d be hurting US tobacco farmers, who basically work for the government to fund all manner of largess (bread and circuses!) they won’t let you do it anyway.

240 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:37:01am

Well, to paraphrase the great Dale Gribble:

“You know what Chrysler stands for, dontcha, hank? Fix It Again, Tony.”

Fiat? Friggin Fiat?

241 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:37:06am

re: #216 Iron Fist

* * * *
Reagan’s firing of the PATCO air traffic controllers reputedly freaked out the Soviets and other thugs around the world.

It took moxie of the Reagan Cowboy kind, to stare down a thuggist union, for the sake of the law abiding citizens.

I don’t see Pres. Obama telling ACORN off, nor SEIU nor the UAW, nor anyone who BRUNG HIM TO THE DANCE.

242 SasquatchOnSteroids  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:37:21am

re: #237 MandyManners

We’re doing it our way.

Sounds like an Obama slogan.
I feel broke.

243 Ben Hur  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:37:25am

Obama read a paper on running a company once.

244 KenJen  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:37:41am

File for bankruptcy already GM! Its time to sh*t or get off the pot!

245 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:37:41am

re: #221 looking closely

It also means that Wagoner was perceived as an obstacle to whatever plans the administration has for GM.

Just got one of those cold shivers up my spine…

246 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:37:50am

re: #222 sattv4u2

Cadillac, GMC and Chevrolet should be worth something to somebody. I expect Buick, Pontiac and Saturn to disappear.

Saturn is profitable. I think GMC is also. Caddy, Chevy, Pontaic are all dogs money wise

Is Saturn still profitable? I thought that was true 5 years ago but times have changed. Somebody will want to buy the Caddy badge. Chevy has presence, it should be worth it to someone to pick up the affiliations on the cheap, and the ‘Vette.

247 KansasMom  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:37:56am

re: #205 lifeofthemind

If GM and Chrysler fold what marques do you think that Ford will pick up and which might resurrect as niche independents or be picked up by others?

My guess is Jeep goes to Ford, Opel to VW or Mercedes.

Cadillac, GMC and Chevrolet should be worth something to somebody. I expect Buick, Pontiac and Saturn to disappear.

Didn’t they already announce that they would be ending the Saturn line?

248 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:38:10am

re: #243 Ben Hur

Obama read a paper on running a company once.

the UAW Trumpet….

249 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:38:11am
250 jdog29  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:38:19am

Just calm down everyone. We’ll be printing up enough money for everyone. No need to crowd. Easy now, easy. There now, all better.

There is no pain you are receding, A distant ship’s smoke on the horizon.

251 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:38:36am

re: #249 Iron Fist

Guns, ammo, quality fighting knives, and the skills to use them…these are the tools needed to weather the harsh environments of the early 21st Century…

“Who run Bartertown?”

252 wiffersnapper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:38:42am

Hussein is learning the hard way that bailouts and stimulus plans never work.

253 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:38:45am
254 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:39:02am

re: #243 Ben Hur

Obama read a paper on running a company once.

He has proven that he can run a company by running the campaign to take over the company.
/

255 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:39:22am

re: #233 LGoPs

I like Caddy. I hope they survive somehow……..

Auto news has been speculating that in the event of Bankruptcy everything he wrote is true except that Caddy would be sold off and become it’s own brand again. Just a thought.

256 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:39:24am

re: #185 Lincolntf

Here’s the Bill

257 Leonidas Hoplite  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:39:30am

re: #243 Ben Hur

Obama read a paper on running a company once.


But did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express?

258 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:39:30am
259 gmsc  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:39:34am

re: #250 jdog29

Just calm down everyone. We’ll be printing up enough money for everyone. No need to crowd. Easy now, easy. There now, all better.

There is no pain you are receding, A distant ship’s smoke on the horizon.

Spending trillions of dollars isn’t a problem. Soon, we’ll all have trillion dollar bills in our pockets!

/Of course, it will take 10 of them to buy half a loaf of bread, but …

260 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:39:43am

re: #163 markx

Honda & Toyota execs must be ROFLMO in Toyko…

Yeah, they’re busy getting money from the Japanese government. They’ve also been helped every step of the way by their own government by the scrappage laws and tariff laws Japan has. The latter virtually stop any foreign cars (even Korean and Chinese ones) from being sold on their home turf.

If we did that here, they’d be screaming to the WTO.

261 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:40:00am

re: #259 gmsc

Spending trillions of dollars isn’t a problem. Soon, we’ll all have trillion dollar bills in our pockets!

/Of course, it will take 10 of them to buy half a loaf of bread, but …

You really think there’ll be bread?

262 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:40:18am

The vegetable garden is going to be a lot bigger this year.

263 zombie  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:40:21am

re: #198 Slumbering Behemoth

Mom: “What do you have to say for yourself, Barack”?

Obama: “Umm…Bush started it”!

I was talking to some big-time moonbats last week. All the moonbats were abuzz over reports in the NY Times about tent cities of unemployed people in Fresno and Sacramento. As they were talking about it, I casually said, “Obamavilles — that’s what everyone is calling them.”

You could have heard a pin drop. Everyone looked aghast. Them some “clever” moonbat broke the silence with, “Bushvilles would be more appropriate!”

He got all the accolades. I got the shunning treatment.

In moonbat mindset, Bush gets 110% of the blame for the crisis, Obama gets 0%.

I didn’t bother to remind them that the stock market started its crash in September — at the exact moment when all the polls pointed to an unstoppable Obama victory. Basically, they crashed because of Obama’s inevitable election, even though it still happened during Bush’s last days.

264 LGoPs  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:40:27am

re: #254 Ford_Prefect

He has proven that he can run a company by running the campaign to take over the company.
/

Obama keeps his wife company. That should make him qualified.
/

265 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:40:35am

re: #262 jill e

The vegetable garden is going to be a lot bigger this year.

Hoarder! Kulak!

266 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:41:00am

re: #255 Noam Chumpski

Auto news has been speculating that in the event of Bankruptcy everything he wrote is true except that Caddy would be sold off and become it’s own brand again. Just a thought.

my sister drives one of thos Caddy STDs or whatever they are….hell of a car…her gas milage is just less than my VW

267 Athos  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:41:03am

re: #180 Nevergiveup

That’s not signed sealed and delivered yet is it?

No, the FIAT deal is a tentative working agreement that has items to be worked out. Chrysler / Fiat Deal has substantial hurdles If a merger does not take place by the end of April, Chrysler looks likely for Chap 11 filing.

268 Muadib  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:41:12am

re: #4 zombie

Brilliant economic policy, Obama! Throw all our money down on a losing investment.

Socialism IS a loosing investment.

Just say no to 0bomunism.

269 JohnnyReb  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:41:20am

re: #261 Guanxi88

You really think there’ll be bread?

There is always food. Maybe not enough for every to get fat from, but it seems there is almost always food in economic hard times. Just not a whole lot of ways to pay for it.

270 gmsc  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:41:42am

Proof that 0bama is the anti-Chrysler.

271 Muadib  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:41:59am

re: #262 jill e

The vegetable garden is going to be a lot bigger this year.

Good idea. Mine too.

272 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:42:09am
273 Ford_Prefect  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:42:11am

re: #264 LGoPs

Obama keeps his wife company. That should make him qualified.
/

I don’t think she gives him a choice. If he wants to stay attached to his privates he has to keep her near.

274 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:42:18am

I’m praying the macho Europeans Just Say No to Obama—no to his cap & trade BS, no to nationalization, no to kleptocracy.

France or Czechs, quien es mas macho?

Who will bell the cat?

275 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:42:26am

re: #266 albusteve

my sister drives one of thos Caddy STDs or whatever they are….hell of a car…her gas milage is just less than my VW

After an accident, I drove one of the… uhm.. CTS Sedan(?) for a couple of weeks and just loved it.

276 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:42:34am

re: #158 Dianna

Yes, but he claimed that the K Car was a good car. I nearly got smushed getting onto I-280 in one, though I stood on the accelerator and screamed in terror.

I drove one of those once. It felt like a model car.

277 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:42:35am

re: #http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/266 albusteve

my sister drives one of thos or whatever they are….hell of a car…her gas milage is just less than my VW

They make an ointment for that now.

278 Eowyn2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:42:58am

re: #162 jester6

PBGC is actually funded by fees charged to the pension plans. It is very similar to the FDIC.

And 401ks are not protected by PBGC. That’s why those of use without “defined benefit plans” are really in trouble.

My defined benefit (and retirement) plan has gone from quietly investing into my 401k to winning the lottery before I die.

279 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:43:01am

re: #270 gmsc

Proof that 0bama is the anti-Chrysler.

*wipes coffee off screen*

280 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:43:11am

re: #249 Iron Fist

Guns, ammo, quality fighting knives, and the skills to use them…these are the tools needed to weather the harsh environments of the early 21st Century…


I was just talking from a purely business standpoint, not a functional/survival one.

Meanwhile, the ammo I bought the week after the election has ALREADY gone up in price.

I’m literally sitting on several thousand rounds of surplus serious caliber centerfire ammo and I even did something I don’t generally do, which is purchase ammo in a caliber I don’t own a weapon in. (In this case .308/7.62x51 NATO).

281 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:43:17am

re: #262 jill e

The vegetable garden is going to be a lot bigger this year.

* * * *Sweat equity is all we will have at this rate! You go, Jill!
May you have a bumper crop.

282 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:43:17am
283 Athos  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:43:33am

re: #263 zombie

Moonbats continue to be confused and distressed by facts. It’s their nature.

284 gmsc  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:43:38am

re: #268 Muadib

Socialism IS a loosing investment.

Just say no to 0bomunism.

LOSE/LOOSE

This confusion can easily be avoided if you pronounce the word intended aloud. If it has a voiced Z sound, then it’s “lose.” If it has a hissy S sound, then it’s “loose.” Here are examples of correct usage: “He tends to lose his keys.” “She lets her dog run loose.” Note that when “lose” turns into “losing” it loses its “E.”


On the other hand, I did upding you for “0bomunism”!

285 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:43:41am

re: #272 MandyManners

[Video]

the Greatest Guitar Solo Ever….sweet

286 turn  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:43:51am

re: #12 reine.de.tout

Barack ‘08!

Baroke ‘09!

rotating title nomination reine, that was good! Ranks right up there with “Hope was Hype” for a bumpersticker.

287 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:44:03am

Hey, guys it was not free money. Despite the claims by virtually every right wing blog and MSM reporter this was a loan…..
‘‘Auto Industry Financing and Restructuring Act’’.

5 (a) DURATION.—The duration of any loan made
6 under this Act shall be 7 years, or such longer period as
7 the President’s designee may determine with respect to
8 such loan.
9 (b) RATE OF INTEREST; TIMING OF PAYMENTS.—
10 (1) RATE OF INTEREST.—The annual rate of
11 interest for a loan under this Act shall be—
12 (A) 5 percent during the 5-year period be13
ginning on the date on which the President’s
14 designee disburses the loan; and
15 (B) 9 percent after the end of the period
16 described in subparagraph (A).
17 (2) TIMING OF PAYMENTS.—Payments of inter18
est on loans under this Act shall be made semiannu19
ally.
20 (c) NO PREPAYMENT PENALTY.—A loan made under
21 this Act shall be prepayable without penalty at any time.
22 (d) INFORMATION ACCESS.—As a condition for the
23 receipt of any financial assistance made under this Act,
24 an eligible automobile manufacturer shall agree—


Doesn’t anybody check facts anymore? Does anybody really care?

288 gmsc  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:44:18am

re: #279 scottishbuzzsaw

*wipes coffee off screen*

Sorry about that …

289 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:44:21am

One (if not 2) of the BIG THREE should have been allowed/ forced into CH 11 or closed last year.

round numbers. If 100 people were going to buy a car last week and instead of having 3 choices (I’m not including the foreigns to make a point) only had 2, those people would still buy a car. So now 2 manufacturers are sharing the marketplace instead of 3. What would happen? Because they each get more MARKET share, they each would seel more cars (50 instead of 33 1/3) They sell more cars they have to make more cars. Making more cars means hiring more workers. Those out of work from the failed one would be hired by one of the others!

290 Macker  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:44:38am

re: #244 KenJen

File for bankruptcy already GM! Its time to sh*t or get off the pot!

That’s what my ex would say to me whenever she was pissed.

291 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:44:45am

re: #265 Guanxi88

Hoarder! Kulak!

* * * *
You have a point, we may all have to become “community gardeners” now.
No private potatoes allowed.

292 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:44:59am

re: #249 Iron Fist

Fighting knives? Dude, if you gotta rely on fighting knives you didn’t buy enough ammo. :0

293 Killian Bundy  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:45:38am

General Motors’s new chief executive told CNBC that filing for Bankruptcy may be the best option for the struggling automaker.

Gee, that’s what I said that last year.

/ten’s of billions dollars ago

294 lifeofthemind  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:45:45am

A tranzi Socialist sometimes gets to meet a real Trade Unionist, the results are interesting. Real Labour would make short work of Obama. When the soviet era apparatchiks had gotten soft and complacent Lech Wałęsa climbed over the wall.

295 albusteve  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:45:46am

re: #275 Noam Chumpski

After an accident, I drove one of the… uhm.. CTS Sedan(?) for a couple of weeks and just loved it.

they are car nuts…this is about 5 years old and in flawless condition it is really a fine machine…she wants to sell it to me but she won’t get rid of it, and she’s a millionare

296 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:45:52am

My husband’s kicking himself for not buying Ruger stock.

297 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:46:05am

re: #288 gmsc

Sorry about that …

Please don’t apologize. It was a much needed laugh. Thanks!

298 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:46:37am

re: #280 looking closely

I was just talking from a purely business standpoint, not a functional/survival one.

Meanwhile, the ammo I bought the week after the election has ALREADY gone up in price.

I’m literally sitting on several thousand rounds of surplus serious caliber centerfire ammo and I even did something I don’t generally do, which is purchase ammo in a caliber I don’t own a weapon in. (In this case .308/7.62x51 NATO).

Whoa, whoa, whoa - I need that .308… How much for how many? :)

299 turn  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:46:46am

re: #287 Killgore Trout

Hey KT, if they restructure in bankrupcy are they still required to pay the full amount back or would this debt be negotiated like all their other debt?

300 Lincolntf  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:46:53am

re: #256 Killgore Trout

The answer to your #164 seems to be in Sect 11, lines 5 thru 24 on the document you linked to.

301 lurking faith  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:47:44am

re: #205 lifeofthemind

If GM and Chrysler fold what marques do you think that Ford will pick up and which might resurrect as niche independents or be picked up by others?

My guess is Jeep goes to Ford, Opel to VW or Mercedes.

Cadillac, GMC and Chevrolet should be worth something to somebody. I expect Buick, Pontiac and Saturn to disappear.

Saturn’s already being spun off, and is trying to make a go of it. Frankly, I hope they succeed; I like my Saturn. Good mileage, low maintenance costs, handles nicely.

302 Kenneth  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:47:55am

re: #263 zombie

The current financial crisis was a solid bipartisan project. The Dems & the GOP can each take their share of the credit for it. I can’t tell you how many times I have had to point this out to liberals & leftists up here.

303 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:48:02am

re: #294 lifeofthemind

A tranzi Socialist sometimes gets to meet a real Trade Unionist, the results are interesting. Real Labour would make short work of Obama. When the soviet era apparatchiks had gotten soft and complacent Lech Wałęsa climbed over the wall.

* * * *
I welcome a New Lech Walesa in Washington.

304 jill e  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:48:02am

Is this like a bait and switch?

305 Pupdawg  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:48:04am

All of the GM union TOTUS supporters should be up-in-arms about the report of probable bankruptcy plans, since that is the one thing that will adversely affect the union employess the most.
All the Kings horses and all the Kings men could not put this hard-boiled, cracked and peeled Humpty back together again!

306 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:49:07am

So, Obama wants to play at being the CEO of the US economy, he can now live with the consequences.

/Bambi, the economy is not something you can drive like some fucking kid on a joyride.

Frankly, this is good news. The automakers all need a fresh start.

307 redstateredneck  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:49:41am

re: #301 lurking faith

Saturn’s already being spun off, and is trying to make a go of it. Frankly, I hope they succeed; I like my Saturn. Good mileage, low maintenance costs, handles nicely.

The plan was to phase Saturn out by 2012.

308 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:49:57am

re: #287 Killgore Trout

Hey, guys it was not free money. Despite the claims by virtually every right wing blog and MSM reporter this was a loan…..
‘‘Auto Industry Financing and Restructuring Act’’.


Doesn’t anybody check facts anymore? Does anybody really care?

A subsidized loan *IS* a handout.

309 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:49:57am

re: #304 jill e

Is this like a bait and switch?

No, because in a bait and switch, they’re still offering something of value.

310 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:50:06am

The last GM CEO was sacked because GM “is too big to be allowed to fail”, yet the hand-picked government appointee now says it should fail. Who the fuck is in charge?!?

311 yma o hyd  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:50:09am

re: #274 alegrias

I’m praying the macho Europeans Just Say No to Obama—no to his cap & trade BS, no to nationalization, no to kleptocracy.

France or Czechs, quien es mas macho?

Who will bell the cat?

My money is on Madame ‘Non’ - thats Chancellor Merkel of Germany …

312 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:50:15am

re: #302 Kenneth

The current financial crisis was a solid bipartisan project. The Dems & the GOP can each take their share of the credit for it. I can’t tell you how many times I have had to point this out to liberals & leftists up here.

/golf claps

OT - I like classic stamps…

313 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:50:23am

re: #299 turn

Hey KT, if they restructure in bankrupcy are they still required to pay the full amount back or would this debt be negotiated like all their other debt?

I don’t know how that works. Do they get in line with the rest of GM’s creditors at the bankruptcy? Maybe they get preferential treatment but I’m not sure.

314 Muadib  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:50:30am

re: #272 MandyManners

Powerful music.

315 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:51:21am

re: #293 Killian Bundy

General Motors’s new chief executive told CNBC that filing for Bankruptcy may be the best option for the struggling automaker.

Gee, that’s what I said that last year.

/ten’s of billions dollars ago

The government didn’t have effective operating control a year ago.

316 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:51:31am

re: #313 Killgore Trout

I don’t know how that works. Do they get in line with the rest of GM’s creditors at the bankruptcy? Maybe they get preferential treatment but I’m not sure.

Aren’t Federal loans not applicable to Bankruptcy? I know student loans from the feds are?

/notta lawyer

317 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:52:27am

Correction: “I know student loans from the feds are not?”

318 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:52:59am

re: #308 looking closely

Bullshit. Handouts are free and don’t require repayment. If you have to pay it back with interest it’s called a loan. The English and reality language don’t bend to your political ideology.
The claim that this was a handout is an easily debunked myth. You will lose that argument every single time.

319 lurking faith  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:53:22am

re: #307 redstateredneck

The plan was to phase Saturn out by 2012.

Really? Dang. Maybe I should cash out what’s left of my IRA and stockpile parts.

320 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:53:24am

The Obama Administration here has inspired no confidence in me as regards to their ability to make the simplest sound financial decision.

321 Muadib  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:53:29am

re: #296 jill e

My husband’s kicking himself for not buying Ruger stock.

Go buy a Ruger before it’s too late. Ammo too! The defense of liberty begins with the individual.

322 Noam Chumpski  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:54:55am

re: #320 hazzyday

The Obama Administration here has inspired no confidence in me as regards to their ability to make the simplest sound financial decision.

I’d have to agree. The only inspiration this “inspirational” President has given me is when I made an impulse purchase on a Springfield SOCOM 16 shortly before election day…

323 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:55:22am

re: #306 unreconstructed rebel

So, Obama wants to play at being the CEO of the US economy, he can now live with the consequences.

/Bambi, the economy is not something you can drive like some fucking kid on a joyride.

Frankly, this is good news. The automakers all need a fresh start.

Obama’s driving the economy.

324 Muadib  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:56:10am

re: #284 gmsc

On the other hand, I did upding you for “0bomunism”!

Damn. How embarrassing. I did learn something useful though. Thanks.

325 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:56:34am

re: #298 Noam Chumpski

Whoa, whoa, whoa - I need that .308… How much for how many? :)


That’s EXACTLY why I bought it. Because .308 is one of those calibers you NEED.

FWIW, this is what I bought. I think I paid $120 for it, with shipping about two months ago.

I’m not selling mine, but if you’d like some, there is still plenty to be had:, assuming you have the wallet for it.

326 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:56:50am

re: #323 FurryOldGuyJeans

Obama’s driving the economy.

Thanks. I needed that.

327 Salem  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:57:20am

If you listen to Rush, you know what’s going on with this.

328 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:58:17am

re: #318 Killgore Trout

Bullshit. Handouts are free and don’t require repayment. If you have to pay it back with interest it’s called a loan. The English and reality language don’t bend to your political ideology.
The claim that this was a handout is an easily debunked myth. You will lose that argument every single time.


Excuse me.

When you don’t have collateral (eg your company is BANKRUPT), you don’t secure guaranteed 5% loans.

A loan at less than the fair market rate *IS* a handout.

329 hazzyday  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:58:33am

Now if UNC loses in the NCAA’s will we see Pres. Obama fire the head coach?

330 irongrampa  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:58:41am

re: #177 alegrias

Just got back from voting. Turnout (my district) has been steady all day, according to the ladies at the table.

331 ~BfromTX  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 11:59:57am

Why no one considers the parasite that is attached to the auto industry and why no one is lancing it off is beyond me I guess. My plan would include: all current UAW workers get whats coming to them. UAW is cut out of any “new” members and GM gets to man any new jobs with non-union workers which will eventually level the playing field against the other foreign auto makers that are in this country. This to me is investing in something that will pay off later down the road. Ford and Chrysler get the same deal. Until unions are cut out of the plan, the big three will always fail. Since Dem’s and Unions are connected at the hip…I will let everyone guess why this is happening. ~B

332 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:00:05pm

re: #322 Noam Chumpski

I’d have to agree. The only inspiration this “inspirational” President has given me is when I made an impulse purchase on a Springfield SOCOM 16 shortly before election day…


That was probably a good investment, too.
Problem is that feeding it is so expensive.

333 jaunte  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:04:06pm

I’m waiting for the next step, in which government tells us we will all buy a GM car to help pay for the UAW pensions. It will be disguised as a tax incentive, a tariff on foreign cars, or in Michigan, straight vandalism of imports.

334 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:04:40pm
335 A.W.  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:05:14pm

well, to be fair, this is coming from the government as much as GM (Government Motors).

336 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:06:27pm

re: #328 looking closely

A loan at less than the fair market rate *IS* a handout.


You can google and learn the current interest rate yourself if you want to be informed. Go ahead, take a look.

337 saylorfam  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:06:59pm

This was from last year:

nytimes.com

338 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:07:23pm

Sorry, I just get really frustrated by the disinformation and myths spread by ideologues.

339 Pupdawg  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:07:27pm

re: #305 Pupdawg

All of the GM union Mr. TOTUS supporters should be up-in-arms about the report of probable bankruptcy plans, since that is the one thing that will adversely affect the union employees the most.
All the Kings horses and all the Kings men could not put this hard-boiled, cracked and peeled Humpty back together again!

…and news reports today say, GM will propose more plant closings in their new restructuring plans demanded by Mr. TOTUS. More blue collar workers will have to go. So much for Mr. TOTUS’ job creating bullshit!

I can only hope union members from coast to coast realize they were instrumental in enabling the One who helped push them over the cliff and vote the Democrats out of power. Their reign as well as Mr. Obama’s should be as short-lived as their job security was.

Why isn’t the MSM all over this? I’m sorry, that is a stupid question. There is no escaping the Matrix and its supreme ruler.

News reports also today said Mr. Obama is in London for the G-20 meeting where he plans to ‘listen and lead.’ I hope he has his teleprompter with him, but evidently not since he said he plans to ‘listen.’ Please pardon my sarcasm when I say, the One could not ‘lead’ a one-man lemonade stand flush with lemons at home much less ‘lead’ the world and I hope he is listening. Just how does one ‘lead’ by ‘listening?’ Maybe, they all should ‘listen’ and thus ‘lead’…the way to the open bar and then the water closet.

340 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:12:14pm

re: #326 unreconstructed rebel

Thanks. I needed that.

You are welcome. Ramirez and his cartoons are always a good grim chuckle at the dark times ahead.

341 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:12:28pm

re: #334 Iron Fist

I bought an semi auto M4 a few weeks ago after looking for only two weeks. Found a supplier 100 miles away and took the drive.

The dealer was selling S&W rifles and did not have the problem with supply the he had with other top tier manufacturers (DPMS, Bushmaster, Colt). My guess is S&W never quite recovered from the beating they took when the CEO made a deal with the devil (aka Clinton Administration) in the late 1990s.

342 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:12:29pm

re: #334 Iron Fist

Good deal! Now, if you want to get a weapon in that caliber [.308], it may take some doing.


Well, getting “a weapon” in .308 isn’t all that difficult.

Frankly, I’m really not that interested in a .308 right now. I just look at that .308 ammo as an insurance policy of sorts.

If I need to get something done, I’ve already got a Mosin Nagant. Laugh all you like…7.62x54R actually hits harder than .308.

Plus, I’m still waiting for my back-ordered AR-15 clone to arrive.

343 turn  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:13:35pm

re: #313 Killgore Trout

ok, thanks

344 FrogMarch  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:13:38pm

Finally. Wasted enough tax payer money?

345 Rexatosis  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:17:02pm

I wonder how long the Unions will back Pres. Obama’s socialist agenda now that the UAW workers are getting the big shaft (not that it was really avoidable but it would have been a lot less painful if done years ago.)

346 alegrias  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:17:20pm

re: #330 irongrampa

Just got back from voting. Turnout (my district) has been steady all day, according to the ladies at the table.

* * **
Thank you for doing your civic duty Irongrampa.

347 gmsc  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:18:39pm

0bama assures us, that with his new government office, the Federal Unionized Bureau of Automotive Restructuring, nothing could possibly go wrong!

348 Mirage  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:19:00pm

re: #345 Rexatosis

I wonder how long the Unions will back Pres. Obama’s socialist agenda now that the UAW workers are getting the big shaft (not that it was really avoidable but it would have been a lot less painful if done years ago.)

The union bosses aren’t getting shafted so why would they drop their support?

349 jester6  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:20:53pm

re: #345 Rexatosis

There aren’t that many UAW workers to make that much of a difference. And from years of experience of living in Ohio, I know they will blame management, NAFTA, the bankruptcy court and Republicans long before they blame Obama. Obama will not loose too many of them.

Besides, the only unions growing significantly are those covering government workers. Obama is making them very happy.

350 debutaunt  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:21:26pm

re: #102 Killgore Trout

I’m not receiving bailout money so the government is out of my business.

You had better be paying yourself union wages.

351 saylorfam  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:26:12pm

re: #337 saylorfam

Sorry, This was Romney’s editorial about giving bailout money to Detroit Automakers. I wish I had his Crystal Ball because five short months later, it has all come true!

352 docremulac  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:29:53pm

My guess is the automakers have been considering bankruptcy all along but have been getting the message from the new overlords of American industry, the Democrat party, that the thickly padded union granted retirement funds that are pulling the industry down would never be allowed to be put on the table.

That is until this week when I heard a new term: “Structured bankruptcy”. It caught my ear because I had never heard the term and thought “Isn’t that redundant? Isn’t a bankruptcy a re-structuring of a person or business’ debts and assets and therefore already structured?”

My guess is that “structured” in this case is codeword for “bankruptcy with the union benefits off the table.” Which means what? The taxpayers (you) will pay for the bloated auto union contracts and the kleptocrats will have stealthily put another couple of million people on permanent welfare and tapped into another vein of the hated American taxpayer.

Mission accomplished.

353 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:39:06pm

re: #352 docremulac

My guess is the automakers have been considering bankruptcy all along but have been getting the message from the new overlords of American industry, the Democrat party, that the thickly padded union granted retirement funds that are pulling the industry down would never be allowed to be put on the table.

That is until this week when I heard a new term: “Structured bankruptcy”. It caught my ear because I had never heard the term and thought “Isn’t that redundant? Isn’t a bankruptcy a re-structuring of a person or business’ debts and assets and therefore already structured?”

My guess is that “structured” in this case is codeword for “bankruptcy with the union benefits off the table.”


Remember last November/December when Mitt Romney wrote an op-ed saying that GM and Chrysler should declare bankruptcy so they could restructure? It would have been a chance to do it with at least a nominal republican president.

Who blocked it? George W Bush. So now they will restructure under Obama.

shaking head

354 Arbalest  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:39:46pm

Recall this quote from an article yesterday

“I am absolutely committed to working with Congress and the auto companies to meet one goal: The United States of America will lead the world in building the next generation of clean cars,” Obama said in his first extended remarks on the industry since taking office nearly 10 weeks ago. And yet, he added, “our auto industry is not moving in the right direction fast enough to succeed.”

What about keeping GM in business? Does Obama really see building “clean cars” as the (only needed?) solution to GM’s problems, when the problems are clearly quality and cost (and labor problems and poor management, and …)?

Electric vehicles are not yet as practical as or cost competitive with standard internal-combustion-engined cars; current batteries are to expensive, and do not pack the same amount of energy-per-pound or per-volume as gasoline or diesel. Then there’s the effort (and pollution) to make the batteries … … .

Is it possible that Obama and Company insisted on GM converting to electric cars, ignored all other issues / problems, and Wagoner laughed?

I suggest that Wagoner was purged.

The WaPo implicitly agrees, and says bankers think they’re next.

The new GM CEO thinks bankruptcy looks good. My guess is that he considered all options and realized that this was his only option. Now Obama and Company have to play in the (probably very-well-publicized) real world.


Remember, before being elected, it was publicly known that Obama had
- spent $150million on various educational programs in Chicago, with absolutely no detectable effect.
- arranged for abut $42million to go to his pal A. Rezko to renovate buildings in Chicago, many of which are still uninhabitable and many of which went bankrupt.

Why, after failing with $190million, should we expect the $14billion on GM to succeed?

Why should we expect any of Obama’s other spending plans to not fail miserably?

Congress needs to be reminded. Campaigning for 2010 starts real soon.

355 funky chicken  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:41:20pm

re: #351 saylorfam

Sorry, This was Romney’s editorial about giving bailout money to Detroit Automakers. I wish I had his Crystal Ball because five short months later, it has all come true!

Yep. But GW Bush did everything in his power to stop them from declaring bankruptcy. It was like his last gasp of idiocy on the economic crisis.

356 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:42:40pm

re: #336 Killgore Trout

You can google and learn the current interest rate yourself if you want to be informed. Go ahead, take a look.


I don’t need to, because you’ve already posted it, and I’ve already quoted it back to you. To refresh your memory:

(b) RATE OF INTEREST; TIMING OF PAYMENTS.—
10 (1) RATE OF INTEREST.—The annual rate of
11 interest for a loan under this Act shall be—
12 (A) 5 percent during the 5-year period be
13 ginning on the date on which the President’s
14 designee disburses the loan; and
15 (B) 9 percent after the end of the period
16 described in subparagraph (A).


Again, there is NO WAY IN HELL GM could get a 5 year 5% loan on its own, anywhere, right now.

GM currently has a “junk” credit rating. If you check out GM bonds, current yield on some of them is above 65%!

In fact, on its own, GM probably couldn’t borrow $14 Billion ANYWHERE, period. Its just too bad a risk. Hell, the entire MARKET CAP of GM is only $1.3 Billion right now.

Sure, lending GM the money is not quite the same as just handing it the money with absolutely no expectation of repayment, but for the third time, when someone lends you money at a rate far less than the prevailing market interest rate, that is a GIFT.

You don’t think some of GM’s competitors would appreciate a nice cheap loan at 5% interest?

What do you think happens if GM can’t pay it back? Think there is any likelihood of it NOT happening?

357 joncelli  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:45:58pm

re: #205 lifeofthemind

I think Ford would love to have Cadillac (for luxury models) and GMC (for the trucks). The rest, maybe individual models but not entire marques.

358 docremulac  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 12:57:44pm

re: #353 funky chicken

“Remember last November/December when Mitt Romney wrote an op-ed saying that GM and Chrysler should declare bankruptcy so they could restructure? It would have been a chance to do it with at least a nominal republican president.

Who blocked it? George W Bush. So now they will restructure under Obama.

shaking head”

I’ve always said, Bush fumbled the ball on the 1 yard line of his Presidency with the way he handled this financial crisis the Democrats caused. His “solutions” paved the way for the nationalization of industry we’re experiencing under the subsequent administration.

359 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:00:56pm

This is the same bullshit Henderson’s weasely boss, Wagoner, was peddling: “Oh, Mr. Government man, we may have to declare bankruptcy and put thousands of UAW workers on the street if we don’t get what we want! You better soften your tone or we’ll cause massive unemployment!”

Shove it. A real man would take GM into bankruptcy and be done with it, instead of dicking around trying to get more Government payola. Take GM into bankruptcy court, dissolve your onerous contracts with suppliers and unions alike, and emerge stronger.

Oh, but without any value for your stock options and holdings. You’d have to work on rebuilding your personal wealth once you emerge from court protection, instead of keeping your head bent to the trough at taxpayer expense.

Wagoner’s “firing” gained him twenty million bucks, and counting. I doubt any of the sleaze running GM are capable of doing what’s right for the company.

360 Ojoe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:01:26pm

On the radio news they are bandying about the term “controlled bankruptcy” regarding GM, to try and make it seem more palatable & perhaps not to scare the stock market and the public too much.

Does this ever seem like the start of another great depression.

361 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:06:50pm

re: #205 lifeofthemind

If GM and Chrysler fold what marques do you think that Ford will pick up and which might resurrect as niche independents or be picked up by others?

My guess is Jeep goes to Ford, Opel to VW or Mercedes.

Cadillac, GMC and Chevrolet should be worth something to somebody. I expect Buick, Pontiac and Saturn to disappear.

I doubt that anyone will pick up GM’s models or facilities. For one, GM almost certainly isn’t going out of business - they may wind up seeking bankruptcy protection and restructuring significantly, but they’ll still be around, and in a few years they’ll emerge from protection with few debts and a much-enhanced contractual standing with their unions and suppliers, giving them an edge over their competition. For another, GM will certainly close down manufacturing facilities, but the remaining auto companies will quickly move to fill the void with their own models, without having to deal with the headache of hiring GM’s jaded employees under Union pressure to preserve their existing contracts.

362 looking closely  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:09:45pm

re: #356 looking closely

To be clear, the Federal gov’t doesn’t just HAVE $14 Billion to give to GM lying around The loan is to be underwritten by the US Treasury, which itself pays for it by issuing debt.

Right now, the yield on 5 year T-bills is just under 2%. So assuming GM does pay off this loan, then the spread is about 3% per year, which the gov’t could net as profit. It could potentially add up to a few Billion dollars, depending on how much gets paid, when, etc.

But there is one big assumption here, namely that GM remains solvent the entire time, and ultimately makes good on its obligation.

Assuming it does NOT and burns through this cash without becoming profitable again, then the taxpayers are left holding the bag, in this case a company potentially worth only pennies on the dollar.

Again, the market cap of GM is currently only 1/10 that of the size of this loan. The risk of default here is NOT small at all. .. that’s the reason why GM’s currently outstanding debt yields 65% interest.

Alternatively, GM may require yet ANOTHER infusion of cash down the road, and given the “you broke it, you own it” theory, it would probably get it, if only to provide political cover for subsidizing a dog at taxpayer expense.

363 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:14:10pm

re: #360 Ojoe

On the radio news they are bandying about the term “controlled bankruptcy” regarding GM, to try and make it seem more palatable & perhaps not to scare the stock market and the public too much.

Does this ever seem like the start of another great depression.

Not really. GM has been beyond bloated for many, many years, and has resisted all attempts to transform itself into a reasonably sized company. That worked fine while the economy was on the upswing. The fact is that even the tiniest downtick was enough to send GM into a death spiral. Recessions always shake deadwood out of the marketplace, and GM has been a corporate snag for a couple of decades, rotting away from within until the right breeze came along to topple it.

If you haven’t noticed, I blame their management, who are continuing in the same hogs-at-the-trough game they’ve been playing for years even while their company founders beneath them.

Time to quit screwing around. Take the company into bankruptcy, now, and let’s see if the horrendous “ripple effect” everyone’s bleating about really comes to pass. I’m betting it won’t even come close to what’s been projected. GM will continue making and selling cars at some moderately reduced level; job losses will be unpleasant but manageable; and executives at the company will find their stock holdings and options worthless, but their company will be in a stronger position to compensate them for their trouble once they emerge from court protection. Oh, wait! That would mean personally giving something up! We can’t have that!

364 NelsFree  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:18:11pm

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

The Obama administration has decided that there is no need for luthiers, so, luthiers will have to shut down shop and find other employment before they will receive any breaks from the government.


If Lex Luthiers are involved, we can call Superman.

365 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:22:27pm

It ain’t management, it’s labor.

366 SummerSong  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:27:18pm

Sorry to say, I’m not surprised.

367 Ojoe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:30:10pm

re: #363 SixDegrees

Well that’s a hopeful post. Thank you.

368 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:36:27pm

re: #365 Sharmuta

It ain’t management, it’s labor.

I don’t entirely agree. Historic labor costs are certainly a problem, especially when it comes to pensions. But current costs have achieved near equity with competitor’s costs. The resulting two-tiered workforce has created it’s own problems, with new hires making roughly half what they would have just a few years ago and working side-by-side with people only slightly more senior who have a much sweeter life.

And it really does seem to be management. Ford isn’t having similar problems, despite the UAW using agreements struck with GM as their template for negotiations with other auto makers. GM is a lumbering slug, staffed with small-brained, small-minded management whose only concern is it’s own short-term gratification with no thought at all for the good of the company.

Chrysler is even worse, having been gutted by a professional leech to the point where there is little left but a husk that may attract a buyer close to it’s own merit - Fiat - but has long since passed the point of being able to function on it’s own. Daimler started the bleeding, and Nardelli finished the company off. I don’t think there’s a single engineer left working there.

I’m no fan of the unions, but their power has lessened dramatically over the last couple of decades, and they have been in sharp decline for the last ten years in terms of the wages they command and the power they wield. Their past excesses certainly haven’t helped anyone, but their responsibility for the current fiasco at select companies seems greatly overstated.

369 Kobalt  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:36:50pm

At least BO is guaranteeing the warranties.
Now GM cars will run as well as the government.

There’s change you can believe in.

370 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:43:42pm

re: #368 SixDegrees

The administration seems so fond of interfering with the contracts of management, but what about the labor contracts? This isn’t all on labor, true, but nor is it all on management. There is no way this administration will reign in the union, so I feel it’s unfair to not mention the role of labor costs to the overall issues with the industry.

371 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:43:49pm

re: #369 Kobalt

At least BO is guaranteeing the warranties.
Now GM cars will run as well as the government.

There’s change you can believe in.

Buy a GM product, and add to your Frequent Amtrak Miles program!

372 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:49:52pm

re: #370 Sharmuta

The administration seems so fond of interfering with the contracts of management, but what about the labor contracts? This isn’t all on labor, true, but nor is it all on management. There is no way this administration will reign in the union, so I feel it’s unfair to not mention the role of labor costs to the overall issues with the industry.

The Administration has a distinctive favoritism toward labor. Comes with the territory. And the government is NOT in a position, at the moment anyway, to renegotiate current labor contracts. It wasn’t in a position to dictate management changes at GM, either, but GM decided to take the money the government was offering rather than turn them down and do…what they’re going to wind up doing, anyway, which is taking the company into bankruptcy. At least they get a few more weeks to convert their existing company shares into some other investment.

The unions, meanwhile, are about to be reined in no matter what else happens, because layoffs and plant closings are coming no matter what. And under bankruptcy protection, their contracts will be nullified.

Personally, I would have enjoyed seeing Gettlefinger publicly flogged - just on principle, and because it’s been awhile since there’s been a good public flogging - but the union’s aren’t begging the government for money (directly) so the government doesn’t have much sway when it comes to influencing union behavior.

373 Roark wannabe  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:52:24pm

The only way for GM to ever make money at making cars is to shed it’s benefits and health care for their retired workforce. My suspicion is that Uncle Sam will soon be paying all those debts as way to provide future viability without Union Labor having to make any additional concessions.
It’ll be the test case for the gov’t creating the complete welfare state that it seems to want to be. Think Social Security, Medicare, etc.. all rolled into one. And B.O. will make the case that he is only helping out the ‘workers’ not the corporations or shareholders.
Seems like he’s selling Chrysler down the river, or to the Italians.

374 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:53:51pm

re: #372 SixDegrees

The unions, meanwhile, are about to be reined in no matter what else happens, because layoffs and plant closings are coming no matter what. And under bankruptcy protection, their contracts will be nullified.

And it’s my opinion that this might be exactly why they’re considering bankruptcy.

375 Canoe Train  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:56:13pm

re: #331 ~BfromTX

I was thinking along the same lines myself. GMTA.

376 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 1:59:49pm

re: #373 Roark wannabe

The only way for GM to ever make money at making cars is to shed it’s benefits and health care for their retired workforce.

They pretty much already have, or soon will. They’ve been negotiating for some time to turn management (and responsibility) for those benefits over to the UAW.

Yes, I think this is a truly stupid idea. But it does get the stone off GM’s neck. And hands untold billions of dollars to one of the planet’s most thoroughly corrupt organizations. But still.

The deal’s currently hung up over just how much of a patronage payment GM will have to dole over to the UAW, over and above the pension assets themselves, in exchange for being rid of this burden.


Seems like he’s selling Chrysler down the river, or to the Italians.

Chrysler has been a lost cause since they sold themselves to Daimler-Benz. There’s practically nothing left of the company to sell; Nardelli is playing a shell game with Fiat, hoping they don’t notice that although the lights are still on, there’s nobody home. Chrysler has shed something like 90% of it’s engineers under Nardelli’s “management”; they’re pretty much doomed no matter what happens.

377 Canoe Train  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 2:01:45pm

re: #363 SixDegrees

Indeed. I’m thinkng along the same lines.

I wonder how this situation would compare or contrast with that of, say, the Rock Island RR, or the Milwaukee Road ? Those were two companies that folks used to think would be around “forever,” yet, by the middle of the 1980s, both were out of business, and in the process of liquidation.

378 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 2:06:29pm

re: #374 Sharmuta

And it’s my opinion that this might be exactly why they’re considering bankruptcy.

Indeed. It’s something they should have done originally, without asking for government help. But as I’ve pointed out before, doing so would have rendered the board member’s stock options and holding worthless, and we’re talking about the primitive leech brain, which has no ability for long-term planning or for concerns about anything other than it’s own leechy self’s immediate gratification.

Instead, management has painted a doomsday picture, with “bankruptcy” portrayed as the instantaneous closing of each and every GM-owned facility on the planet, with hundreds of thousands of direct and indirect employees thrown out onto the streets overnight. In reality, it means no such thing. Under bankruptcy, GM will continue making cars, at about the same level as current demand will support, and will retain most of it’s market share. Mostly, people will keep working, although the renegotiation of labor contracts would certainly wind up trimming a good deal of fat off the factory floor. The real savings, though, would come from reduced obligations to suppliers, and there would be some trimming of employment there, as well. But the Ride of the Four Horseman being trumpeted by the Board is, simply, a ridiculous lie. Not gonna happen, and nothing even close to it will.

Better to just man up and do it. Now rather than later, after more taxpayer money has circled the drain.

379 Canoe Train  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 2:08:43pm

I have to agree with SixDegrees in the post #378, here. It is about time that this bankruptcy take place. The company that emerges will be better off, and so will the economy and the nation.

380 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 2:10:57pm

re: #377 Canoe Train

Indeed. I’m thinkng along the same lines.

I wonder how this situation would compare or contrast with that of, say, the Rock Island RR, or the Milwaukee Road ? Those were two companies that folks used to think would be around “forever,” yet, by the middle of the 1980s, both were out of business, and in the process of liquidation.

I don’t think GM is headed for oblivion by any means. Demand for cars remains strong, despite recent downturns. GM may have to get used to reduced market share, but there’s still plenty of potential consumption to go around. I don’t think they’re anywhere near being liquidated.

381 ceemack  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 2:37:13pm

So, if my company took any bailout money, some old queen who used to have a gay prostitution ring run out of his basement is going to give some guy who doesn’t even pay his taxes the right to change my salary?

I don’t think so…

382 Sharmuta  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 2:40:42pm

re: #379 Canoe Train

re: #380 SixDegrees

And I agree. As a conservative, a capitalist, I support economic Darwinism. The government is interfering with the natural selection of the market place, and in the long run, it’s worse for all involved. Allow the company to evolve to work in its new environment. It might not be pretty, it might hurt for awhile, but government involvement is only delaying the inevitable.

383 RightMinded  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 2:42:04pm

Hi all, late to the thread here.

I have to say, as a former GM employee (94-97) this is a long time in coming. The inefficiency with which the company is run is astounding. A lot of the techs I worked with had a union type mind set even though we are in a right to work state (Arizona, GM has a proving grounds here). Getting things done with some of them was like pulling teeth. And no matter how much you complain, nothing seemed to change. It was bad here, but the stories I heard about the unions in MI were jaw-dropping.

I was told that an engineer would get “written up” (formal complaint against him/her) if they carried a part back to their desk from the production line. If you did this you were “taking away someone’s job” and you got in hot water for it. Instead, you’d have to write up a work order and submit it and have the union person pick it up and deliver it back to you. Massive waste of time and energy!

At one point the muckity mucks were coming out to the proving grounds here in AZ for a “ride” where they would judge performance etc..of production vehicles. The techs in our shop were put on “squeak and rattle” duty, meaning they went through and stuffed pieces of foam into areas in the interior where there might be squeaks or rattles in order to make the vehicle more quiet. Unbelievable! The whole point is for upper management to judge the quality of production vehicles, yet here we were with orders to make special alterations to the vehicles and make them seem better than they were!

And to add insult to injury, they took the techs assigned to my group to do some of the work, delaying finishing our testing! It drove me crazy!

They should have declared bankruptcy long ago.

384 cincinnati_kid37  Tue, Mar 31, 2009 5:07:02pm

This whole idiot story ‘they’ are tossing around that ‘consumers’ would never buy from a company in Bankruptcy is absurd.

Like we’d buy from a company who might go bankrupt any day instead. ?

Bankrupt. Reorganize, Come out Healthy. Put some decent warranty weight behind your products, add features that we all want, and I’ll likely buy one.

Go on thinking you can make your current structure work and I’ll Never buy one. Ever.

PS - And under any circumstances forget the idea of selling me an electric commuter car for anything between 30 and 40 K, especially when the battery costs 8 grand.

And I’d actually like to have such a vehicle for commuting to work.

Seriously, take all those current drive train components, computer controlled emissions, supported by a wide array of sophisticated expensive components and replace it all with some electric motors, battery(s), charging mechanism, and maybe a tiny motor to recharge while driving and you want to charge More ? Not happenin GM.


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