NYT Hyperventilates Over ‘Brutal’ CIA Tactics

US News • Views: 2,669

On the release of the Justice Department’s memos on interrogation techniques, the New York Times is predictably having a case of the torture vapors: Interrogation Memos Detail Harsh Tactics by the C.I.A.

The “brutal” tactics they describe sound very similar to what happens every spring in frat houses across America.

Together, the four memos give an extraordinarily detailed account of the C.I.A.’s methods and the Justice Department’s long struggle, in the face of graphic descriptions of brutal tactics, to square them with international and domestic law. Passages describing forced nudity, the slamming of detainees into walls, prolonged sleep deprivation and the dousing of detainees with water as cold as 41 degrees alternate with elaborate legal arguments concerning the international Convention Against Torture.

As I’ve written many times, describing these tactics as “torture” degrades the language and trivializes the victims of real torture. But that’s what this discussion has turned into; the demagogues of the left have succeeded in defining torture down.

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273 comments
1 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:33:46am

how nice of them.....

2 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:34:18am

But it's not like these pin heads at the NYT ever got into any Fraternities?

3 NYCHardhat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:34:43am

These "brutal" thctics saved lives.

4 CIA Reject  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:34:53am

Those "brutal" tactics are a large part of the reason why the NYT's building is not a smoking heap or rubble today.

/Idiots!

5 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:34:55am

Reading the New York Times is torture.

6 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:35:29am

Ladies and Gentlemen, the New York Times: All the Propaganda That's Fit to Wrap a Fish With.

/spits

7 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:35:36am

these brutal tactics are used in SERE school......

where were their complaints about how US prisoners were treated in the last few wars?

8 CIA Reject  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:35:40am

re: #3 NYCHardhat

GMTA!

9 NYCHardhat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:35:41am

I miss W.

10 J.D.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:35:43am
Leon E. Panetta, the C.I.A. director, had argued that revealing such information set a dangerous precedent for future disclosures of intelligence sources and methods.


Wouldn't listen to his own C.I.A. director.

I don't give a damn what anyone says, the O is not particularly smart.

11 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:03am

The NYT would hyperventilate over my cat's killing two mice recently.

Cry me a river.


12 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:06am

Yeah...but the NYT has hit junk bond status. I'm just waiting for it to finally die

13 Kragar  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:10am

These people calls this torture and demonize the CIA, yet idolize Che at every turn. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

14 simonml  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:29am

As a member of a fraternity I take offense (just a little bit) to the statement that fraternities "torture" pledges.

Ok, I'm not really upset, but not all frats are like that. Mine sure wasn't. We just drank a lot.

15 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:36am

Not only couldn't they get into a Frat, but they let others fight for their freedoms. The closest any of them ever got to putting their life on the line for something they love, like our country, is eating bad escargo at one of their fancy restaurants.

16 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:37am

re: #10 J.D.

Wouldn't listen to his own C.I.A. director.

I don't give a damn what anyone says, the O is not particularly smart.

you misspelled "an absolute fucking moron"

17 NYCHardhat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:41am

I hate the left.

18 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:54am

The New York Times New Slogan:

Our days are numbered, and we know it.

19 Dustyvet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:55am

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

Ladies and Gentlemen, the New York Times: All the Propaganda That's Fit to Wrap a Fish With.

/spits

When I could get it, the NYT's made great cat litter box liner.

20 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:36:56am

re: #14 simonml

As a member of a fraternity I take offense (just a little bit) to the statement that fraternities "torture" pledges.

Ok, I'm not really upset, but not all frats are like that. Mine sure wasn't. We just drank a lot.

can i join?

21 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:37:01am
the demagogues of the left have succeeded in defining torture down.

They're the sort of people who think evil is the victim of good.

22 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:37:33am

re: #17 NYCHardhat

I hate the left.

I hates mecees to piecess!

23 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:37:38am

Good thing the NYT doesn't know the CIA uses...
The Comfy Chair!
/

24 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:37:39am

re: #17 NYCHardhat

I hate the left msm.

FIFY

25 Spartacus50  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:37:47am

NYT should read through "The Gulag Archipelago" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn as a refresher on what true torture really is

26 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:37:56am

re: #21 Sharmuta

They're the sort of people who think evil is the victim of good.

actually, it appears that they believe evil IS good.

27 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:10am

re: #14 simonml

As a member of a fraternity I take offense (just a little bit) to the statement that fraternities "torture" pledges.

Ok, I'm not really upset, but not all frats are like that. Mine sure wasn't. We just drank a lot.

Uh -- I think you've completely missed the point. I wasn't saying fraternities "torture" pledges.

28 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:15am

CNN also did a number about "da torture! da torture, I tell ya!" which included "face slapping."

29 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:18am

re: #21 Sharmuta

I just shot something to you.

30 cronus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:18am

Just wait to the NYT learns that some detainees were forced to sit on flat hard chairs. They weren't even provided those comfy seat pillows from Bed, Bath and Beyond.

31 simonml  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:19am

re: #20 redc1c4

can i join?

In all honesty we didn't have many requirements. Just that you could pay your dues. So mail me a check for this semester's dues and I'll take care of the rest ;-)

32 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:28am
dousing of detainees with water as cold as 41 degrees

What does this say about all those polar bear clubs? Maybe they should be banned?

33 J.D.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:32am
But one previously unknown tactic the C.I.A. proposed — but never used — against Abu Zubaydah, a terrorist operative, involved exploiting what was thought to be his fear of insects.

“As we understand it, you plan to inform Zubaydah that you are going to place a stinging insect into the box, but you will actually place a harmless insect in the box, such as a caterpillar,” one memo says.


How could they even think of such an atrocity?

34 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:44am

They were going to convict them with or without Obama, anyhow.
Anyone want to venture a guess at how many consecutive front pagers this will generate ?

35 simonml  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:50am

re: #27 Charles

Uh -- I think you've completely missed the point. I wasn't saying fraternities "torture" pledges.

I know. I was joking. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

36 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:52am

re: #19 Dustyvet

When I could get it, the NYT's made great cat litter box liner.

I would never subject my cats to the NYT, even as litter material. My cats have more integrity then the NYT.

37 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:38:56am

re: #27 Charles

Uh -- I think you've completely missed the point. I wasn't saying fraternities "torture" pledges.

i think his was a response to #2.

38 NYCHardhat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:39:00am

Sticking a man in a confined space with a caterpillar is not torture. Sticking bamboo reeds under the fingernails of a POW is. See the difference.

39 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:39:07am

re: #19 Dustyvet

When I could get it, the NYT's made great cat litter box liner.

I don't think I'd want to soil my littler boxes with the NYT.

40 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:39:08am

Waterboarding....
Shackling.....
Stripping....

Frat houses, SERE School,........

Send captured Foreign Contingency Community Organizers to Frat houses in the future!

41 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:39:30am

I've had girlfriends who've treated me worse.

42 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:39:30am

re: #31 simonml

In all honesty we didn't have many requirements. Just that you could pay your dues. So mail me a check for this semester's dues and I'll take care of the rest ;-)

it's in the mail...... now, can i get a drink?


%-)

43 AMER1CAN  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:39:33am

These terrorists couldn't survive a day in Jr. high!

Dousing of water is torture?

Seriously?

Wow, Just Wow.

44 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:39:50am

re: #21 Sharmuta

They're the sort of people who think evil is the victim of good.

I'm getting very very weary of this attitude. When will people wake up?

45 Rednek  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:39:53am

In another news regarding Obama's bumbling presidency:

EPA calls CO2 dangerous


WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency on Friday issued a finding that carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases pose a danger to the public, setting the stage for a battle over regulations that could have far-reaching impact on the U.S. economy.

Unless superseded by congressional action, the EPA finding potentially could lead to a wave of new regulations, putting stricter emissions limits on a wide range of enterprises from power plants and oil refineries to automobiles and cement makers.

46 JohnnyReb  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:40:21am

You know, I see this as a serious attempt to the death sentence. Also we will be seeing overly long jail sentences handed down as "torture" very soon.

47 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:40:37am

re: #43 AMER1CAN

These terrorists couldn't survive a day in Jr. high!

Dousing of water is torture?

Seriously?

Wow, Just Wow.

Just you wait. Purple Nurples, Swirlies and trash canning will all become torture under the Geneva Conventions.

48 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:40:38am

re: #29 MandyManners

I just shot something to you.

i know a few people that need shooting: can i send you the list?

49 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:40:39am

re: #10 J.D.

Wouldn't listen to his own C.I.A. director.

I don't give a damn what anyone says, the O is not particularly smart.

Or particularly well educated, despite (or maybe because of) Columbia and Harvard Law. He regularly shows his cluelessness with respect to history and geopolitics.

50 J.D.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:40:48am

re: #41 Ringo the Gringo

I've had girlfriends who've treated me worse.

You mean they used real bees?

51 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:40:55am

re: #41 Ringo the Gringo

I've had girlfriends who've treated me worse.

In my house the food is marked :
1) OK to eat
2) Do NOT touch -- leave for Dad to eat

52 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:40:57am

Instead of cold water maybe they should just be swirlyed.

53 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:41:02am

re: #45 Rednek

In another news regarding Obama's bumbling presidency:

EPA calls CO2 dangerous

and there goes the economy.......

54 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:41:08am

re: #45 Rednek

In another news regarding Obama's bumbling presidency:

EPA calls CO2 dangerous

Don't tell that to the trees...

55 redheadredstate  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:41:27am

NYT=IRRELEVANCE

This is par for the course at the NY Times. Is it any wonder that their circulation is in the toilet and they're going to have to be "bailed out" by BHO and the boys? I wouldn't use this rag to wipe up my dog's poop.

56 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:41:34am

re: #54 MrSilverDragon

Don't tell that to the trees...

or my beer and soda.

57 NYCHardhat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:41:39am

Who is the hall monitor in here?

////

58 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:41:39am

re: #44 ArchangelMichael

I'm getting very very weary of this attitude. When will people wake up?

One day too late?

59 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:41:44am

re: #46 JohnnyReb

Wasn't that one of William Ayers' pet projects? -- to free all prisoners, since, after all, prisons constitute nothing more than cruel and unusual punishment...

60 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:41:54am
61 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:41:55am

re: #45 Rednek

In another news regarding Obama's bumbling presidency:

EPA calls CO2 dangerous

Individual CO2 limits, if you exceed your personal allocation in any 24 hour period, you'll have to hold your breath until you are back with in your allocation limits.

62 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:42:03am

re: #28 J.S.

CNN also did a number about "da torture! da torture, I tell ya!" which included "face slapping."

So what? Even if some Islamists got their faces slapped, its still a lot less than what they deserve.

63 Dustyvet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:42:12am

re: #54 MrSilverDragon

Don't tell that to the trees...

"I talk to the trees, that's why they put me away"

Peter Sellers

64 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:42:22am

re: #45 Rednek

In another news regarding Obama's bumbling presidency:

EPA calls CO2 dangerous

Well, CO2 is dangerous; if the concentration rises too high it can be deadly.
But that only happens in enclosed spaces now, so it's more OSHA's job.
Unless global cooling kills off all the plants.

65 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:42:29am
66 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:42:32am

re: #45 Rednek

In another news regarding Obama's bumbling presidency:

EPA calls CO2 dangerous

Now that's getting into the realm of ridiculousness. CO2 is a very necessary part of life on this planet. Without it, plants don't grow and give off oxygen.

67 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:42:39am

re: #11 MandyManners

The NYT would hyperventilate over my cat's killing two mice recently.

Cry me a river.

[Video]

Is that really her singing? Damn, she's good! Better than the original.

68 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:42:46am

re: #47 acwgusa

Just you wait. Purple Nurples, Swirlies and trash canning will all become torture under the Geneva Conventions.

Not to mention wedgies.

69 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:43:00am

re: #61 jcm

Individual CO2 limits, if you exceed your personal allocation in any 24 hour period, you'll have to hold your breath until you are back with in your allocation limits.

Hey! Democrats! Want to save the planet? Hold in your personal CO2 until you pass out! Planet saved!

70 Nevergiveup  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:43:02am

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

So what? Even if some Islamists got their faces slapped, its still a lot less than what they deserve.

Remind me again which is worse...face slapping or cutting off someone's head?

71 Dianna  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:43:03am

re: #47 acwgusa

Just you wait. Purple Nurples, Swirlies and trash canning will all become torture under the Geneva Conventions.

Considering that I've suffered most of those, I'd actually agree. I hate bullies.

72 Rednek  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:43:13am

re: #53 redc1c4

and there goes the economy.......

Not only that, but by declaring CO2 dangerous, breathing on terrorists can now be considered torture.

Additonally, maybe American's breathing will be considered a crime against humanity.

73 gegenkritik  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:43:26am

Those NYT-editors should read the essay on torture in Jean Améry's "Beyond Guilt and Atonement".
Maybe then they understand, how embarrassing their use of the word torture is.

74 Leonidas Hoplite  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:43:34am

re: #54 MrSilverDragon

Don't tell that to the trees...

Did someone say The Trees?

75 J.D.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:43:57am

re: #65 MandyManners

Will the NYT take bail-out money or other subsidies?


What a prize that one is!

76 Racer X  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:44:11am

Rush is talking about this now.

77 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:44:14am

re: #59 J.S.

Wasn't that one of William Ayers' pet projects? -- to free all prisoners, since, after all, prisons constitute nothing more than cruel and unusual punishment...

Maybe. Richard Pryor had a great bit after they filmed "Stir Crazy"
"There are reasons we've got penitentiaries!"

78 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:44:24am

re: #64 Kosh's Shadow

Well, CO2 is dangerous; if the concentration rises too high it can be deadly.
But that only happens in enclosed spaces now, so it's more OSHA's job.
Unless global cooling kills off all the plants.

O2 at 21% and 3 atmosphere's is toxic.

79 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:44:28am

re: #71 Dianna

Considering that I've suffered most of those, I'd actually agree. I hate bullies.

Ah, the bad old days of high school. Let's send the terrorists there. They'd be singing within days.

80 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:44:46am
81 sandspur  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:44:53am

Sawing a head off with a dull, rusty knife = torture
Pretend drowning = not so much

82 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:44:55am

re: #75 J.D.

What a prize that one is!

Coming to a fox-hole near you!

83 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:44:58am

re: #12 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Yeah...but the NYT has hit junk bond status. I'm just waiting for it to finally die

Don't worry; Obama will bail them out, and they'll get the first government license to operate as an approved media outlet, just like Rosa Brooks is fantasizing about.

84 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:07am

re: #78 jcm

O2 at 21% and 3 atmosphere's is toxic.

*everything* is toxic at some level......

/ban everything!

85 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:11am

Recently overheard conversation:

Guy A: What does this Starbuck's have for newspapers?

Guy B (looking over): Just the new york times.

Guy A: Eh- never mind. See you back up at the office.

/true story

86 opnion  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:14am

If the detainees were forced to play Dodge ball or take pop quizzes that were actually graded, then you would have clear Human Rights violations.

87 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:22am

re: #27 Charles

Uh -- I think you've completely missed the point. I wasn't saying fraternities "torture" pledges.

At my college they branded them -- permanently scarred with hot metal. I also had some frat boys threaten to break my legs.

I think the POWs got better treatment from the CIA.

88 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:24am

re: #43 AMER1CAN

These terrorists couldn't survive a day in Jr. high!

Dousing of water is torture?

Seriously?

Wow, Just Wow.

Exactly. According to the LLL definitions of torture, it damn near happened to me hundreds of time in public schools from 1980-1990.

Where are the war crimes trials for 6 grade bullies?

89 JammieWearingFool  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:31am

I hope there wasn't any teabagging involved.

90 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:37am
91 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:38am

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

CNN also had on someone from the ACLU who was asserting that torture is immoral and illegal and...(etc.) which, of course, real torture is...but c'mon, slapping someone's face constitutes "torture" and is "immoral" and "illegal"? etc...what a joke...(if any prisoners dare slap one another, I guess, next it'll be law suit time for allegations of "I bin tortured!")

92 Russkilitlover  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:43am
NYT Hyperventilates Over 'Brutal' CIA Tactics

NYT needs to glance out its window from time to time to where the Towers once stood.

93 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:56am

re: #85 Sharmuta

Recently overheard conversation:

Guy A: What does this Starbuck's have for newspapers?

Guy B (looking over): Just the new york times.

Guy A: Eh- never mind. See you back up at the office.

/true story

Hand it here, my office is out of TP.

94 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:45:58am

re: #84 redc1c4

*everything* is toxic at some level......

/ban everything!

DING!

95 wiffersnapper  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:46:07am

They should have given them the comfy chairs instead!

/monty python

96 J.D.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:46:10am

re: #76 Racer X

Rush is talking about this now.

"If we're hit again, President Obama owns it."

97 Emerald  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:46:22am

And yesterday the NYT announced it was cutting more sections in an effort to stay afloat. Because it's going down because it has too many weekly sections.

Cause, meet effect.

98 pat  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:46:28am

Reading the NYT is torture.

99 brookly red  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:47:14am

re: #92 Russkilitlover

NYT needs to glance out its window from time to time to where the Towers once stood.

That pretty much sums it up...

100 Dustyvet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:47:28am

re: #96 J.D.

"If we're hit again, President Obama owns it."

It's not a matter of if, but when...

101 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:47:35am

re: #61 jcm

Individual CO2 limits, if you exceed your personal allocation in any 24 hour period, you'll have to hold your breath until you are back with in your allocation limits.

That Lisa Jackson looks like a dingbat.

102 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:47:37am

re: #97 Emerald

And yesterday the NYT announced it was cutting more sections in an effort to stay afloat. Because it's going down because it has too many weekly sections.

Cause, meet effect.

I told my father, the minute the New York Times goes under, I'm going to buy him the biggest prime rib I can find in the U.S.

103 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:47:50am

re: #27 Charles

Uh -- I think you've completely missed the point. I wasn't saying fraternities "torture" pledges.

Charles, what I got as a fraternity pledge in the 1960's prepared me well for the psychological aspects of Army basic training (constantly screamed at, sleep deprivation, endless exercise, etc.).

104 Rednek  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:47:51am

re: #98 pat

Reading the NYT is torture.

And burning it releases CO2.

You can't win.

105 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:48:02am

re: #100 Dustyvet

It's not a matter of if, but when...

remiknd me not to fly, or go downtown.....

106 Scorch  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:48:14am

Spent a summer on Guantanamo or Gitmo as we called it back in 73 while in the Navy. I was amazed at the living conditions these prisoners have now compared to the conditions we lived in. Cannot believe some in our own government say these people were tortured while our everyday military personnel live under much harsher conditions.

107 redstateredneck  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:48:47am

Nick Berg was unavailable for comment.

108 alegrias  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:48:58am

Hey NYT,

When do babies get human rights? After Al Qaeda you say?

Go bankrupt already.

109 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:49:08am

re: #104 Rednek

And burning it releases CO2.

You can't win.

even composting it releases bad things....

maybe we can get it shut down for environmental reasons?

110 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:49:12am
111 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:49:56am

re: #70 Nevergiveup

Remind me again which is worse...face slapping or cutting off someone's head?

Slapping a poor, downtrodden, Third-Worlder is torture. Cutting off the head of a rich, evil, American is good for the planet.

/Moonbat

112 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:50:01am
dousing of detainees with water as cold as 41 degrees...

...in the tropical climate of Cuba.

Bastards. I bet those detention quarters weren't even air conditioned.

113 soxfan4life  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:50:34am

re: #106 Scorch

Spent a summer on Guantanamo or Gitmo as we called it back in 73 while in the Navy. I was amazed at the living conditions these prisoners have now compared to the conditions we lived in. Cannot believe some in our own government say these people were tortured while our everyday military personnel live under much harsher conditions.

Those in our government who complain about the treatment of prisoners, have no respect for our military anyhow. When I was a lower enlisted at Fort Hood we had 2 soldiers living in a barracks room smaller than the required space for 1 federal prisoner.

114 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:50:44am

re: #107 redstateredneck

Nick Berg was unavailable for comment.

Daniel Pearl likewise was not able to comment.

115 alegrias  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:50:58am

re: #106 Scorch

Spent a summer on Guantanamo or Gitmo as we called it back in 73 while in the Navy. I was amazed at the living conditions these prisoners have now compared to the conditions we lived in. Cannot believe some in our own government say these people were tortured while our everyday military personnel live under much harsher conditions.

* * * * *
Guess which end of GITMO gets to pray 5 times a day, with Korans & beads & beanies & prayer rugs?

Fidel's side can't celebrate Christmas or Easter. And you can check out mentally but you can never leave. Who's depriving whom?

116 SasquatchOnSteroids  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:51:17am

Those detainees wives' go through way worse shit than anything that's been done to them by us. Forced to sit thru elaborate legal arguments or beaten with a length of wire within an inch of your life, you decide.

117 gman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:51:37am
the demagogues of the left have succeeded in defining torture down.

The Left seems to be able to do a lot of "defining".
All accomplished by appealing to people's emotions, not reason.

118 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:51:38am

re: #106 Scorch

Spent a summer on Guantanamo or Gitmo as we called it back in 73 while in the Navy. I was amazed at the living conditions these prisoners have now compared to the conditions we lived in. Cannot believe some in our own government say these people were tortured while our everyday military personnel live under much harsher conditions.

up at Camp Roberts a few years back the Youth Authority wanted to do a program where selected wards (prisoners) could work around the base.

the Guard offered up two barracks, which were deemed unfit for the prisoners, so they were retrofitted to spec. when the program closed, they became officers quarters. GI's still get the unimproved barracks they have since WW2.

/true story

119 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:52:23am

re: #110 buzzsawmonkey

But the lights are much brighter there; you can forget all your troubles, forget all your cares if you go downtown. Things will be great; just go downtown. Don't wait a minute.

they'll be REALLY bright when the smuggled in nuke goes off.

120 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:52:28am

Obama releases these documents and the Left swoons and bloviates because the CIA isn't itself getting waterboarded and convicted for what they claim is torture of prisoners.

Obama's justification for the release of these documents is facetious. He claims that Bush era policy made the US less safe.

Obama couldn't be more hopelessly wrong on that count. Since Bush enacted those policies, the US has not been again attacked. Why is Obama taking any such chances that another attack occurs on his watch? Because it might make the Europeans feel better about the US?

It's so much nonsense. It's not the Europeans that we have to worry about. It's the jihadis and Islamofascists who are busy plotting attacks against the West and the US from places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, and other failed states around the world, and who have infiltrated into Europe and even the US.

Obama is willing to hang up tactics and procedures that have worked and which were rarely used - in fact, they were used sparingly and only on several high profile terrorists like AQ's KSM, among others. If we take these tools off the table, what happens when we catch other terrorists? Put them on the comfy chair?

As for the craziness over whether any of this constituted torture, it's a tortured reading to come to that conclusion. None of these techniques produce lasting physical harm, and even the mental anguish is of limited duration. The effectiveness of these techniques is in the suspect not knowing what is coming, and here Obama lays out the whole damned thing and says that we wont do it anymore.

It's obscene.

And I've seen plenty of obscene things on this point in the past few days. In fact, I walk past something obscene every frakking day. It's the open pit at Ground Zero where terrorists got their way on 9/11 and which politicians can't get their act together. Obama's job is to prevent another 9/11, and his policy leaves that door wide open.

It once again goes to Obama's character and judgment - and the failure on both.

121 comrade  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:52:30am

I belonged to a fraternity and I can personally vouch that many of the techniques described here were part of the pledge process.

Sleep deprivation - Check (over 72 hours)
Fear of sexual molestation by a farm animal (Baaah!)
Fear tactics - Check (blindfolded, screamed at, led to believe something dangerous was there that was not)
Manhandling - Check (grabbed by the shirt, pushed around, carried blindfolded)
Slamming against a flexible surface - Check (In this case a soiled mattress)

The difference would certainly be that in no case did I feel fear of gross bodily or mental harm, considering that I lived with and trusted all the guys, and that I could quit anytime (peer pressure notwithstanding). I would agree the military version would be more mentally traumatic, but in terms of actual bodily effect, no different.

122 Noam Chumpski  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:52:41am

I do some pro-bono work for a group in GA that assist immigrants who have been tortured in their native countries. They help them attain permanent asylum in the US.

I see articles like this and what they describe and I have to laugh. I've met (and seen the effects) of people whom have actually been tortured.

Charles is very right when he says that tossing around the 'torture' word willy-nilly like the Times is doing degrades the word and its meaning.

Side note: GA's Federal Court track record of granting asylum to individuals who have been proven to be the victims of brutal torture is around... zero. Maybe 2 over the past decade. I'd have to double-check.

123 DistantThunder  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:53:11am

Meanwhile, one of the Iraqi translators in Iraq is trying to get a visa to come to the US because he fears for his life. Alqueda kidnapped his brother, and really TORTURED him - drilling out his eyes with an electric drill. He did not reveal his brother's location.

Drilled.Out.His.Eyes. = Torture

124 soxfan4life  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:53:13am

re: #117 gman

The Left seems to be able to do a lot of "defining".
All accomplished by appealing to people's emotions, not reason.

They are so much smarter than us knuckledraggers you know.///

125 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:53:14am

re: #113 soxfan4life

Those in our government who complain about the treatment of prisoners, have no respect for our military anyhow. When I was a lower enlisted at Fort Hood we had 2 soldiers living in a barracks room smaller than the required space for 1 federal prisoner.

which is still better than a squad in the back of a 113.

/slightly cramped.

126 Kenneth  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:53:39am

According to the UN and Amnesty International, over 100 countries around the world regularly practice torture. Real torture. On thousands of prisoners.

This includes, by the way, Spain, where a judge wanted to file charges against former Bush administration figures.

127 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:54:01am

re: #102 acwgusa

I told my father, the minute the New York Times goes under, I'm going to buy him the biggest prime rib I can find in the U.S.

At the speed its going under, I may have to buy him the cow.

128 alegrias  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:54:07am

re: #113 soxfan4life

Those in our government who complain about the treatment of prisoners, have no respect for our military anyhow. When I was a lower enlisted at Fort Hood we had 2 soldiers living in a barracks room smaller than the required space for 1 federal prisoner.

* * * *
That's odd, our public housing residents get to complain ALL THE TIME about their accommodations, and my taxes pay for their renovations here in Alexandria, VA.

129 J.D.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:54:08am

re: #120 lawhawk

It once again goes to Obama's character and judgment - and the failure on both.


No big surprise, though.

130 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:54:16am
131 capitalist piglet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:54:27am

re: #38 NYCHardhat

Sticking a man in a confined space with a caterpillar is not torture. Sticking bamboo reeds under the fingernails of a POW is. See the difference.

I can add to that.

The Japanese in WWII inserted firecrackers into the bodily cavities of women and lit them, with their children watching, because they wouldn't give away the location of where American/Filipino guerillas were camped.

The Americans held in the camps after the Bataan Death March were given weevil-infested rice to eat, bayoneted in the abdomen, and pushed into slit trenches filled with human excrement.

I have to imagine they would have considered Gitmo a five-star resort.

132 ConservatismNow!  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:54:38am

re: #118 redc1c4

up at Camp Roberts a few years back the Youth Authority wanted to do a program where selected wards (prisoners) could work around the base.

the Guard offered up two barracks, which were deemed unfit for the prisoners, so they were retrofitted to spec. when the program closed, they became officers quarters. GI's still get the unimproved barracks they have since WW2.

/true story

Grandpa Joe slept in a tent on a concrete slab when he was going through basic at Camp Johnson duing WWII. They didn't even have a Quonset Hut at the time.

133 avanti  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:54:57am

re: #10 J.D.

Wouldn't listen to his own C.I.A. director.

I don't give a damn what anyone says, the O is not particularly smart.

He would not have been smart if he ignored a court order.

"The administration was compelled to release the memos, one written in 2002 and three in 2005, to the ACLU under a federal court-imposed deadline in an open-records lawsuit filed by the group. "

134 Dustyvet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:54:57am

re: #113 soxfan4life

Those in our government who complain about the treatment of prisoners, have no respect for our military anyhow. When I was a lower enlisted at Fort Hood we had 2 soldiers living in a barracks room smaller than the required space for 1 federal prisoner.

While I was a Fort Hood, we slept in 45 man bays! Thank God I had an upper bunk, when the drunks used to come back from Saturday night passes.

135 Russkilitlover  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:55:01am

re: #102 acwgusa

I told my father, the minute the New York Times goes under, I'm going to buy him the biggest prime rib I can find in the U.S.


When you do, I've got THE BEST way to cook a Prime Rib. I might share it with you....if you're nice. ;)

136 Kenneth  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:55:06am

re: #108 alegrias

Hey NYT,

When do babies get human rights? After Al Qaeda you say?

Go bankrupt already.

That is above their paygrade.

137 jjag  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:55:09am

Isn't one of the reasons why newspapers, like the NY Times, are failing due to their constant abuse of the English language?

When a presidential candidate can successfully run for office on the most VAPID campaign slogan ever "Change" and NEVER be questioned on its meaninglessness as a slogan (much less an "idea"), isn't public discourse completely cheapened?

And if a newspaper, who's whole existence revolves around communicating, clearly, using the WRITTEN word, can't be bothered to question (much less challenge) the emptiness of such rhetoric, what's the point in reading such a publication?

If a business doesn't protect or defend something that is essential to its "core competency" why should anyone be surprised that business should be failing?

Liberals are notorious for abusing language and using dubious rhetorical constructs to mask their positions and appear innocuous (i.e. the recent change in the use of the word "terrorist" to "man made disasters", the use of term "progressive" to co-opt the most favorable rhetorical perspective and "undocumented worker" for illegal alien).

Newspapers have committed suicide by becoming captive to liberal operatives. Its kind of perfect when you think about it; they gave liberal's the "rope" (the ability to contort and distort words with impunity) by which they've hung themselves.

138 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:55:20am

OT: Here's another excellent Frontpagemag smackdown, this time nailing both Troofers and Nirthers:

9/11 Truthers Meet the Birth Certificate Brigade

139 DistantThunder  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:55:36am

re: #122 Noam Chumpski

I do some pro-bono work for a group in GA that assist immigrants who have been tortured in their native countries. They help them attain permanent asylum in the US.

I see articles like this and what they describe and I have to laugh. I've met (and seen the effects) of people whom have actually been tortured.

Charles is very right when he says that tossing around the 'torture' word willy-nilly like the Times is doing degrades the word and its meaning.

Side note: GA's Federal Court track record of granting asylum to individuals who have been proven to be the victims of brutal torture is around... zero. Maybe 2 over the past decade. I'd have to double-check.

Why wouldn't we give asylum to the truly completely desperate?

140 soxfan4life  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:55:39am

re: #125 redc1c4

which is still better than a squad in the back of a 113.

/slightly cramped.

True that, but during peace time our soldiers, sailors, and airmen should have better quarters than what they endure in combat or training.

141 KenJen  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:55:50am

It's going to get to the point where just threatening torture is considered torture.

142 tfc3rid  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:56:01am

Yeah and of course, if we did not utilize these 'harsh' techniques, the Library Building in LA would be a crater just like the WTC site.

143 J.D.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:56:05am

re: #133 avanti

He would not have been smart if he ignored a court order.

"The administration was compelled to release the memos, one written in 2002 and three in 2005, to the ACLU under a federal court-imposed deadline in an open-records lawsuit filed by the group. "

Fuck the ACLU.

First time I've used the F-word here, but seriously!

144 redstateredneck  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:56:12am

re: #130 taxfreekiller

sounds like you and the mrs are real soul mates.
;-)

145 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:56:29am

re: #133 avanti

He would not have been smart if he ignored a court order.

"The administration was compelled to release the memos, one written in 2002 and three in 2005, to the ACLU under a federal court-imposed deadline in an open-records lawsuit filed by the group. "

He could have asserted a national security privilege on the documents, and let the courts try and sort it out. There was no reason to let a lower level court rule as much.

146 acwgusa  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:56:30am

re: #138 Dark_Falcon

OT: Here's another excellent Frontpagemag smackdown, this time nailing both Troofers and Nirthers:

9/11 Truthers Meet the Birth Certificate Brigade

Isn't those two groups meeting each other the 7th or 8th sign of the Apocalypse?

147 gman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:56:43am

re: #118 redc1c4

up at Camp Roberts a few years back the Youth Authority wanted to do a program where selected wards (prisoners) could work around the base.

the Guard offered up two barracks, which were deemed unfit for the prisoners, so they were retrofitted to spec. when the program closed, they became officers quarters. GI's still get the unimproved barracks they have since WW2.

/true story

I had the privilege of staying in those WWII barracks a few years back :)
The civilian world and the military world- two different worlds.

148 kansas  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:56:46am

re: #27 Charles

Uh -- I think you've completely missed the point. I wasn't saying fraternities "torture" pledges.

The fraternity I joined in 1968 did stuff that would make the weenies faint. Only a couple of weeks though.

149 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:57:06am

re: #120 lawhawk

You're a legal beagle, what's the precedent for an Administration release internal advisory / guidance documents like this?

I can't recall, and can't find a precedent.

150 soxfan4life  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:57:23am

re: #134 Dustyvet

While I was a Fort Hood, we slept in 45 man bays! Thank God I had an upper bunk, when the drunks used to come back from Saturday night passes.

Did you go to training there with Elvis?

151 redc1c4  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:57:37am

re: #133 avanti

He would not have been smart if he ignored a court order.

"The administration was compelled to release the memos, one written in 2002 and three in 2005, to the ACLU under a federal court-imposed deadline in an open-records lawsuit filed by the group. "

all he had to do was say "National Security".....

152 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:57:47am

Proposals for subsidizing the MFM.

If we're willing to use taxpayer money to build roads, pay teachers and maintain a military; if we're willing to bail out banks and insurance companies and failing automakers, we should be willing to part with some public funds to keep journalism alive too. In an article in the April 6 Nation, John Nichols and Robert McChesney offer some ideas on how to bail out the news industry. They suggest, for instance, eliminating postal rates for periodicals that get less than 20% of their revenues from advertising, a tax credit for the first $200 taxpayers spend on newspaper subscriptions and a substantial expansion of funding for public broadcasting. Meanwhile, Sen. Benjamin L. Cardin (D-Md.) has introduced legislation to allow many existing newspapers to restructure as tax-exempt nonprofit educational institutions. And these ideas are just a start.

153 redheadredstate  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:58:18am

re: #130 taxfreekiller

Went by a large grocery store on the way back out of a trip to Dallas yesterday, ms tfk had some shopping to do.

We went in a "baby Wal-Mart" grocery store.
There in the entry way, "Dallas Morning News" sales staff with a table and
sign.

It was like a red cape to a fighting bull. Ms tfk walked up, took off her sun glasses. "See these eyes" she ask....?
They see your liberal bias, in fact my family has had all the lies it can take,
my parents and we others subscribed for over 90 years.

We all have cancled, and will never renew.

Never ever will any one of us pay you commies one of your red cents.

the two guys were in shock,

When we checked out, they were gone.

she is like that

Terrific story. My hubby used to subscribe to the Dallas Morning Snooze too. I turned him on to the internet websites that I go to and he's never looked back. Our DMN subscrip has been gone for years now. The only time I miss it is when I clean the mirrors. Old newspaper sprayed with Windex is terrific for cleaning mirrors.

154 Sharmuta  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:58:31am

re: #117 gman

The Left seems to be able to do a lot of "defining".
All accomplished by appealing to people's emotions, not reason.

They do think it's reason though. They seem to think it reasonable to make people what they naturally are not- selfless. We're supposed to ensure equality of outcome because it's ideal and "reasonable" and all out of a spirit of altruism. While a noble sentiment, it's neither realistic nor practical.

155 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:58:33am

This is awful.

As hurricane season approaches, LSU fires hurricane expert.

He believes he's being fired for being right:

He was outspoken and uncompromising in criticizing the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for the many levee failures that caused massive flooding. He said LSU administrators have long sought to silence him because of his criticisms of the federal government and fears that LSU would lose federal funds.

I would love to know what the non-public story is on this.

156 Dustyvet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:58:34am

re: #150 soxfan4life

Did you go to training there with Elvis?

Nope, was assigned to an Artillery Unit after i cane home from Vietnam.

157 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:58:35am

re: #141 KenJen

Or any form of "confinement" will be torture!

158 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:58:37am

How long before the Obama administration makes the New York Times the public relation department for the CIA and the DOD?

/

159 soxfan4life  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:58:53am

re: #133 avanti

He would not have been smart if he ignored a court order.

"The administration was compelled to release the memos, one written in 2002 and three in 2005, to the ACLU under a federal court-imposed deadline in an open-records lawsuit filed by the group. "

Works for 0bama's illegal auntie.

160 kansas  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:59:33am

re: #152 MandyManners

Proposals for subsidizing the MFM.
we should be willing to part with some public funds to keep journalism alive too.

Too late. Journalism died. See CNN. /

161 Kenneth  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:59:47am

The President Ties His Own Hands on Terror

The terrorist Abu Zubaydah ... disclosed some information voluntarily. But he was coerced into disclosing information that led to the capture of Ramzi bin al Shibh, another of the planners of Sept. 11, who in turn disclosed information which -- when combined with what was learned from Abu Zubaydah -- helped lead to the capture of KSM and other senior terrorists, and the disruption of follow-on plots aimed at both Europe and the U.S. Details of these successes, and the methods used to obtain them, were disclosed repeatedly in more than 30 congressional briefings and hearings beginning in 2002, and open to all members of the Intelligence Committees of both Houses of Congress beginning in September 2006. Any protestation of ignorance of those details, particularly by members of those committees, is pretense.

Democrats in Congress knew about the methods and approved of them. Today they are lying hypocrites.

162 avanti  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 9:59:54am

re: #120 lawhawk

In all seriousness, how would he legally defy the federal court order to release the documents, can the executive ignore a federal court order ?

163 opnion  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:00:11am

re: #133 avanti

He would not have been smart if he ignored a court order.

"The administration was compelled to release the memos, one written in 2002 and three in 2005, to the ACLU under a federal court-imposed deadline in an open-records lawsuit filed by the group. "

Unless I misread this, the Obama Administration could have appealed the ruling of this court. The President has remedies at his disposal.
I get the feeling that Obama considers the release of the documents to be somehow cleansing.

164 Racer X  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:00:15am

Doesn't the NY Times endorse torture for Wall Street executives?

/damn capitalists

165 alegrias  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:00:29am

re: #136 Kenneth

That is above their paygrade.

* * * *
Yes. Yet they sponsor Adopt-an-Al Qaeda programs like Pres. Obama's plan to put the GITMO boyz in my neighborhood. Next thing, per the NSA director, is to provide Al Qaedans welfare benefits so they can "re-integrate into society"--like the homes for unwed mothers used to do.

166 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:00:51am

Obama is a traitor.

167 Noam Chumpski  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:01:09am

re: #139 DistantThunder

Why wouldn't we give asylum to the truly completely desperate?

Tough, tough judges. They sorta figure that the individual can just try again in Canada or Mexico... why keep them here :) Each Federal District is different on this matter; some are more lenient.

This particular group does a really good job of background checks to weed out anyone crying wolf and takes very few cases so it's not like they're just trying to get "Jose" in under false pretense.

168 SummerSong  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:01:28am

re: #130 taxfreekiller

Went by a large grocery store on the way back out of a trip to Dallas yesterday, ms tfk had some shopping to do.

We went in a "baby Wal-Mart" grocery store.
There in the entry way, "Dallas Morning News" sales staff with a table and
sign.

It was like a red cape to a fighting bull. Ms tfk walked up, took off her sun glasses. "See these eyes" she ask....?
They see your liberal bias, in fact my family has had all the lies it can take,
my parents and we others subscribed for over 90 years.

We all have cancled, and will never renew.

Never ever will any one of us pay you commies one of your red cents.

the two guys were in shock,

When we checked out, they were gone.

she is like that

Dad?

LOL Sounds like my mother.

169 Russkilitlover  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:02:02am

re: #133 avanti

Um...I call Bullshit until you link to something substantial. Obama's own administration said that the decision (their decision) to release the memos was difficult.

170 StillAMarine  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:02:09am

re: #137 jjag


Liberals Leftists are notorious for abusing language and using dubious rhetorical constructs to mask their positions and appear innocuous (i.e. the recent change in the use of the word "terrorist" to "man made disasters", the use of term "progressive" to co-opt the most favorable rhetorical perspective and "undocumented worker" for illegal alien).

Newspapers have committed suicide by becoming captive to liberal leftist operatives. Its kind of perfect when you think about it; they gave liberal's leftists the "rope" (the ability to contort and distort words with impunity) by which they've hung themselves.


Fixed it for ya!

171 Pietr  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:02:09am

re: #158 Gus 802

How long before the Obama administration makes the New York Times the public relation department for the CIA and the DOD?

/

You mean they aren't already? As MANY Top Secret documents as they've put on their front page over the last 8 years, I figured they had already infiltrated been hired........

172 redstateredneck  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:03:04am

re: #155 reine.de.tout

We need old Nash Roberts back. He could show more accurate weather using a chalkboard than any of these guys around now!

173 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:03:06am

re: #30 cronus

Just wait to the NYT learns that some detainees were forced to sit on flat hard chairs. They weren't even provided those comfy seat pillows from Bed, Bath and Beyond.

Oh noes! The comfy chair!

174 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:03:48am

re: #171 Pietr

You mean they aren't already? As MANY Top Secret documents as they've put on their front page over the last 8 years, I figured they had already infiltrated been hired........

Yeah. I thought maybe they could make it official. Given that Rosa Brooks is in the DOD right now.

175 Noam Chumpski  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:04:06am

re: #158 Gus 802

How long before the Obama administration makes the New York Times the public relation department for the CIA and the DOD?

/

I think I already read an article about that - a large number of fired journalists have found cozy positions in the Obama Admin.

176 jcm  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:04:20am

re: #162 avanti

In all seriousness, how would he legally defy the federal court order to release the documents, can the executive ignore a federal court order ?

National Security
Executive Privilege

The Courts are not Superior to the Executive branch they are Equal.

Separation of Powers.

177 [deleted]  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:05:30am
178 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:05:37am

re: #119 redc1c4

they'll be REALLY bright when the smuggled in nuke goes off.

Momentarily, anyway. After that, the fires will provide light.

/huge carbon footprint

179 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:05:46am

re: #175 Noam Chumpski

I think I already read an article about that - a large number of fired journalists have found cozy positions in the Obama Admin.

Pretty much a nightmare scenario. Left wing journalists in the Executive Branch.

180 Scorch  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:06:32am

re: #152 MandyManners

Subsidizing their own propaganda machines.

181 avanti  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:06:40am

re: #169 Russkilitlover

Um...I call Bullshit until you link to something substantial. Obama's own administration said that the decision (their decision) to release the memos was difficult.

I won't link to the ACLU, but here's the source of my quote.court case.

182 jayzee  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:07:03am

I fear the damage extends beyond the NYT. I do not believe the memos should have been released. Apparently the WH and JD could have fought this, but chose not to.

The NYT is doing what they do with info such as this. The ACLU is doing what they do with info such as this. Code Pink is doing what they do with info such as this. Al Qaeda et al will be doing what they do with with information such as this.

183 BatGuano  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:07:03am

re: #163 opnion

Obama has not only damaged his own presidency he has probably weakened the presidency of administrations to come. Now his office is subservient to dozens of federal judges. He should have resisted out of respect for his office. Only SCOTUS has any say in the matter.

184 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:07:26am

re: #162 avanti

In all seriousness, how would he legally defy the federal court order to release the documents, can the executive ignore a federal court order ?

Simple, just say 'no'. My preffered issue would be detainees at Bagram. The President should simply say "These detainee will not be available to the courts no matter what the judges say." What could the courts do about that? Nothing.

185 Athos  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:07:42am
But that’s what this discussion has turned into; the demagogues of the left have succeeded in defining torture down.

It is fundamentally far worse than just defining torture down. It also repositions the debate and focus on the United States as the primary nation (by extension the Bush Administration) that employs torture while ignoring and providing a complete pass to the odious regimes across the world that actually practice the definition of torture.

In this example of bankruptcy, the hard left ignores the fact that all of these decisions were, as required by law, shared and communicated from the Executive branch to the Legislative branch. There, the leading Democrats briefed, including the current Speaker of the House, not only had no issues or challenges with the means being employed, they actually asked if far more aggressive forms of interogation could be emnployed in order to extract critical intel from the illegal combatants.

This position only changed when it became politically expedient for the Democrats to do so in the interest of furthering the party - not protecting the country or executing the war.

186 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:08:03am

re: #182 jayzee

I fear the damage extends beyond the NYT. I do not believe the memos should have been released. Apparently the WH and JD could have fought this, but chose not to.

The NYT is doing what they do with info such as this. The ACLU is doing what they do with info such as this. Code Pink is doing what they do with info such as this. Al Qaeda et al will be doing what they do with with information such as this.

Barack Obama has essentially provided propaganda for the enemy.

187 Kenneth  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:08:56am

re: #186 Gus 802

Barack Obama has essentially provided propaganda for the enemy.

And an update for their training manual.

188 Athos  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:09:38am

re: #158 Gus 802

How long before the Obama administration makes the New York Times the public relation department for the CIA and the DOD?

/

Not the NY Times, but the hard left pinhead columnist from the LA Times, Rosa Brooks, now has a new job at the Pentagon where she will likely have all kinds of access into the workings of the Pentagon.

189 kansas  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:10:07am

re: #181 avanti

I won't link to the ACLU, but here's the source of my quote.court case.

That's not a court case, that's an article from McClatchy. Got any quotes or articles from Kos or MSNBC?

190 Noam Chumpski  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:10:08am

re: #187 Kenneth

And an update for their training manual.

That's too true.

If I knew that being captured by Al Qaeda meant that I would be sent to a sweet prison with great food and no possible inconvenience, I wouldn't be too afraid of doing anything to them.

191 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:11:01am

re: #188 Athos

Not the NY Times, but the hard left pinhead columnist from the LA Times, Rosa Brooks, now has a new job at the Pentagon where she will likely have all kinds of access into the workings of the Pentagon.

Essentially Brook will act as a "spy" within the department for the left and then some.

192 RaiderDan  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:11:05am

Nice to see we're back on the real enemy, the New York Times.

And speaking of fraternities, hazing and pledges.

Otter "They can't do that to our pledges?!"

Boone "Yeah, only we can do that to our pledges...."

193 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:11:48am

re: #187 Kenneth

And an update for their training manual.

Big time. The fox is in the henhouse and it begins at the top.

194 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:12:16am

Speaking of torture, every time Ahmadinejad opens his Jew-hating mouth, it tortures me. Think I can get the ACLU do do anything about it?
Maybe the IDF?

195 Noam Chumpski  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:12:57am

re: #191 Gus 802

Essentially Brook will act as a "spy" within the department for the left and then some.

Can you imagine? I'll bet they're like, "Wow, that Brooks girl is even burning the midnight oil on the weekends? Why, just yesterday she was down in the records department ordering up all kinds of copies of documents... That's a go-getter!"

196 Scorch  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:13:22am

re: #194 Kosh's Shadow

Would love to see the IDF turned loose on that little weasel.

197 jayzee  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:13:33am

re: #133 avanti

He would not have been smart if he ignored a court order.

"The administration was compelled to release the memos, one written in 2002 and three in 2005, to the ACLU under a federal court-imposed deadline in an open-records lawsuit filed by the group. "

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

They could have fought it. They decided to release it. There was no court order that says they had to release the memos to my knowledge, at least none that could not have been fought.

198 Gus  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:15:47am

re: #195 Noam Chumpski

Can you imagine? I'll bet they're like, "Wow, that Brooks girl is even burning the midnight oil on the weekends? Why, just yesterday she was down in the records department ordering up all kinds of copies of documents... That's a go-getter!"

For her upcoming tell-all book? No doubt. Of course she'll have to wait until after she has retired from her position before she authors such a "book." In the mean time she'll probably act as a "source" for her journalist buddies.

199 bolivar  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:16:17am

re: #133 avanti

He would not have been smart if he ignored a court order.

"The administration was compelled to release the memos, one written in 2002 and three in 2005, to the ACLU under a federal court-imposed deadline in an open-records lawsuit filed by the group. "

fuck the aclu

200 J.D.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:17:19am

re: #199 bolivar

fuck the aclu

GMTA

201 JustABill  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:17:30am

re: #15 Nevergiveup

Not only couldn't they get into a Frat, but they let others fight for their freedoms. The closest any of them ever got to putting their life on the line for something they love, like our country, is eating bad escargo at one of their fancy restaurants.

Your assumption that they love our country needs to be re-examined.

202 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:18:37am

re: #195 Noam Chumpski

Can you imagine? I'll bet they're like, "Wow, that Brooks girl is even burning the midnight oil on the weekends? Why, just yesterday she was down in the records department ordering up all kinds of copies of documents... That's a go-getter!"

She's just trying to help the NYT build its circulation - by giving them secret material to publish.

203 Kenneth  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:20:17am

re: #190 Noam Chumpski

How many terrorist captured by the US were given "enhanced interrogation techniques"? According to former CIA Director Hayden, "less than 40".

How many US troops captured by Al Qaeda were NOT tortured? Zero.

204 jayzee  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:20:40am

[Link: news.smh.com.au...]

A federal court had given the government until Thursday to either turn over the memos in response to a lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union or explain why they cannot be released.

205 nyc redneck  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:21:10am

the monstrous pos, kalid sheikh mohammed, one of architects of 9-ll,
and head chopper of danny pearl, lasted abt. 20 seconds when he was water boarded.
water boarding works. and it works fast.
it might be the most humane method of getting information.
at least quite a few politicians, that includes dems, thought so at one point.
now we don't even call the savages, "terrorists" so of course we must get rid
of harsh tactics to interrogate them.
they are only people engaged in 'human caused events' now.
give them a lollipop. and say please and thank you.

206 StillAMarine  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:22:40am

It is clear that the Death Eaters have penetrated the Ministry of Magic. Isn't there some resemblance between Dolores Umbrage and Nancy Pelosi? ..... Perhaps Pelosi is less attractive, but both of them are arrogant and patronizing.

And the minions of the leftist MSM "journalists" take more and more positions of power in the government.

When will it ever end? The answer is blowing in the wind emanating from the back ends of the leftists who pollute the seats of power in Washington.

207 soxfan4life  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:22:53am

re: #166 Gus 802

Obama is a traitor.


0bama is a commie, peole like Colin Powell who knew his opinion of our military and endorsed his campaign are traitors.

208 Lee Coller  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:23:42am

re: #133 avanti

He would not have been smart if he ignored a court order.

"The administration was compelled to release the memos, one written in 2002 and three in 2005, to the ACLU under a federal court-imposed deadline in an open-records lawsuit filed by the group. "

Technically true, but the administration could have chosen to appeal the order. They did not.

209 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:25:55am

re: #206 StillAMarine

It is clear that the Death Eaters have penetrated the Ministry of Magic. Isn't there some resemblance between Dolores Umbrage and Nancy Pelosi? ..... Perhaps Pelosi is less attractive, but both of them are arrogant and patronizing.

And the minions of the leftist MSM "journalists" take more and more positions of power in the government.

When will it ever end? The answer is blowing in the wind emanating from the back ends of the leftists who pollute the seats of power in Washington.

And He Whose Middle Name Must Not Be Named is running the country.

210 bolivar  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:26:59am

re: #208 Lee Coller

Technically true, but the administration could have chosen to appeal the order. They did not.

Cuz it gave them yet another excuse to bash Bush and his policies (that happened to work by the way). Not that the needed an excuse - their entire policy seems to be directed toward that end.

211 Bradley F  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:27:29am

After reading the description of these "torture" methods, I experienced a sweetly nostalgic moment remembering my week as a 12 year old "ringleader" at our Boy Scout Camporee. I think even skinny little Marvin - the weak link of our group - would've held out longer than KSM.

212 jayzee  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:29:11am

re: #208 Lee Coller

Technically true, but the administration could have chosen to appeal the order. They did not.

No. They would NOT have been in violation of the court order. The court order said they had to either release the memos or explain why they would not. The administration CHOSE to release those memos and that is a shame.

213 HDrepub  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:29:23am

Passages describing forced nudity, the slamming of detainees into walls, prolonged sleep deprivation and the dousing of detainees with water as cold as 41 degrees alternate with elaborate legal arguments concerning the international Convention Against Torture.

HA! Sounds like Army training back in the 60s. I survived it by the way.

214 blangwort  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:31:21am
As I’ve written many times, describing these tactics as “torture” degrades the language and trivializes the victims of real torture. But that’s what this discussion has turned into; the demagogues of the left have succeeded in defining torture down.

I disagree; this is legitimate philosophical question, Charles. I don't think anyone here would disagree that Torture is horrible and should not be used. But what constitutes "Torture?"

Real Torture is more than just a physical thing. It's mental. It's the infliction of pain on a person the to degree that they break down mentally. I mean, that's the whole point --isn't it? To break someone down so that they'll tell you what you want to know. And the problem with an approach like this is the victim really WILL tell you anything you want to know. Even if they don't know anything, they'll tell you something.

So if your definition of Torture is something that disfigures a person or leaves lasting marks, I would have to disagree. We're discussing a mental thing here, not a physical thing. In my opinion, the scars from such a defilement are no different than those from a rape.

And we don't sanction rape as an interrogation method, do we?

215 opinionated  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:31:21am
.....to square them with international and domestic law.

Is there law? Who wrote this law? Should there be a law?

What law?

Law has not yet caught up to the situation the world is facing.

The enemy is not a conventional enemy in a conventional war.

They are striving for mass murder. They are particularly targeting the most vulnerable civilians. They attack suddenly without warning or mercy.

How are they supposed to be treated if civilization hopes to survive?

Who is alive today and who would be dead if these methods had not been used over the past decade to prevent further barbaric attacks.

Call this by any name. If this is torture, torture away, because this is also life saving.

216 golly  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:37:19am

A friend of mine just asked me what his punishment for stealing an idea of mine would be. I told him he would be subjected to 24 hours of TV news with his eyelids glued open. His screams, of "no, no, no" are still echoing.

Real torture is what these igmos don't EVEN want to think about, but they would think about it long and hard if they were in a situation where one of their "freedom fighters" from the other side could possibly get a hold on them.

217 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:39:53am

re: #216 golly

A friend of mine just asked me what his punishment for stealing an idea of mine would be. I told him he would be subjected to 24 hours of TV news with his eyelids glued open. His screams, of "no, no, no" are still echoing.

Real torture is what these igmos don't EVEN want to think about, but they would think about it long and hard if they were in a situation where one of their "freedom fighters" from the other side could possibly get a hold on them.

Dr. Ludovico and Alex?

218 capitalist piglet  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:41:57am

re: #186 Gus 802

Barack Obama has essentially provided propaganda for the enemy.

Maybe that's the point. Maybe they'll look at this and say, "They arguing over whether it's okay to slap us?"

Then they'll start laughing hysterically, and forget how much they hate us.

/

219 golly  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:42:09am

re: #217 Kosh's Shadow

Dr. Ludovico and Alex?

I don't have that apparatus, but I do have super glue!

220 Opinionated  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:44:58am

re: #218 capitalist piglet

Maybe that's the point. Maybe they'll look at this and say, "They arguing over whether it's okay to slap us?"

Then they'll start laughing hysterically, and forget how much they hate us.

/

......and then they'll cut off a captive's head.

221 gman  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:48:34am

re: #154 Sharmuta

They do think it's reason though. They seem to think it reasonable to make people what they naturally are not- selfless. We're supposed to ensure equality of outcome because it's ideal and "reasonable" and all out of a spirit of altruism. While a noble sentiment, it's neither realistic nor practical.

The "Make Love not War", "Respect other Cultures No Matter What", "It Takes a Village" idiots are mostly followers (I've yet to meet a moonbat manager) who bond together using emotionally appealing mantras that "feel" reasonable. All of their dialogue has been copied and pasted from one drone to the next. Any thoughts of questioning these "copy and paste" memes is internally quashed in favor of maintaining collective harmony. They have an eternally guilty self- conscious, and beat themselves figuratively over the head each day to keep out their "indulgent" individualistic feelings. It's a miserable way of living, but they don't know any other way.

222 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 10:54:39am

So basically the Times would rather I die than expose a terrorist to a caterpillar. That explains their fast dive to junk bond status.

223 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:13:09am

re: #222 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

So basically the Times would rather I die than expose a terrorist to a caterpillar. That explains their fast dive to junk bond status.

I don't know, Rachael Corrie had a pretty scary experience with a Caterpillar.

224 SixDegrees  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:17:42am

re: #214 blangwort

I disagree; this is legitimate philosophical question, Charles. I don't think anyone here would disagree that Torture is horrible and should not be used. But what constitutes "Torture?"

Real Torture is more than just a physical thing. It's mental. It's the infliction of pain on a person the to degree that they break down mentally. I mean, that's the whole point --isn't it? To break someone down so that they'll tell you what you want to know. And the problem with an approach like this is the victim really WILL tell you anything you want to know. Even if they don't know anything, they'll tell you something.

So if your definition of Torture is something that disfigures a person or leaves lasting marks, I would have to disagree. We're discussing a mental thing here, not a physical thing. In my opinion, the scars from such a defilement are no different than those from a rape.

And we don't sanction rape as an interrogation method, do we?

You make interesting points here. But you fail to provide any useful definition of what constitutes torture. The lack of definition is what's caused all the current problems. If there were one that everyone involved could agree on, there would be no problem at all. We would either agree with it and agree not to do such things, or we would disagree and give an up-front refusal to abide. Case closed, problem solved.

Without a definition, anyone is free to invent their own, with some leaning toward slow dismemberment and others claiming that singing "Itsy Bitsy Spider" within earshot of a prisoner constitutes torture.

Yes, torture has a mental component. But that's not a useful definition. The very act of detention itself becomes a form of torture if we allow something as nebulous as "mental anguish" to be used. And certainly, under this approach, any form of coercion at all, whether it's batting a wasp's nest into a prisoner's cell or turning a single, furry caterpillar loose with them will fall under this rubric.

Feel free to provide a useful definition of what constitutes torture. If you can, this debate will end instantly.

225 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:23:09am

re: #54 MrSilverDragon

Don't tell that to the trees...

"MSD" -

Or bushes, flowers, vegetables, fruits, nuts.

-S-

226 Pupdawg  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:35:33am

Unfortunately, the demagogues of the left have succeeded in 'defining down' many things in America or as some might suggest 'dumbing down'...like around 52% of the voters. The NYT seems to be 'dumbing down' central.
In keeping with the subject at hand, I wonder if Cuba will reciprocate and allow their people to travel to America...if so, I see a ton of one-way tickets bought in Cuba in the future for vacationing in America! I also wonder if the warm and friendly Castro brothers will allow Cuban-Americans who left their homeland w/o the open-arms-aid of Jimmy Carter to return to America freely if they now visit Cuba thanks to TOTUS...for some strange reason I see arrests and real torture for those who return for a visit. I'd also think dumbing down central the NYT will play the three monkeys (deaf, dumb and blind) if this occurs.

227 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:38:33am

I am likely to get some dings for this, but I feel the need to strongly disagree with many of the people here and Charles.

Without getting into an elaborate psuedo-legal debate about what is and is not torture. I should note from the start that Gen MacArthur, not known for being left wing, hanged Japanese for waterboarding our troops after the Second World War. Graphic descriptions of waterboardings of our men were heard in the Tokyo trials. Please look it up. These fell under count 54.

Interestingly enough, a little while back, a fellow lizard linked to a great old movie (from the Sixties) with Alec Guinness called Echos of Glory. The new colonel of the regiment was psychologically scarred to say the least. He had been tortured by the Germans. They had waterboarded him. He describes the sure certainty that he was droning and going to die with terrible effect.

After the second World War, there was no question from the military or even from a general movie audience that this was a terrible thing. The CIA wouldn't do it to interrogate those prisoners if it was nice.

Now I do not want to get into a relativism debate about "is it worse than the rack?" Let's say that I grant you that it is not as terrible as some other things we have done to each other as a species. Maybe it is just the foreplay to "real torture." Perhaps. But even if I grant you that, we are supposed to be the good guys.

If you act like good guys and the enemy knows that you behave like the good guys, then they are more likely to surrender. If they think that they will be abused in your hands, they are more likely to fight to the last man. This gets more of our guys killed as well as more of them. It is not clear to me at all that the potential cost in lives of this policy was offset by the value of any intelligence we received.

Further, we are supposed to be the good guys. The good guys don't even do the foreplay to bad. They would not so stain their honor.

I find this whole thing a national tragedy.

228 Pupdawg  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:40:35am

re: #5 Leonidas Hoplite

Reading the New York Times is torture.

...and listening to Mr. Obama is more torturous than a 33 degree water-boarding in my tighty whities in December in Maine!

229 slterry40  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:41:12am

Sleep deprivation...cold water. Wow. And we are the bad guys despite the fact that the people we are subjecting this to cut peoples heads off for sport, right? Have I lost my mind? I must have lost my mind.

230 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:41:48am

re: #227 LudwigVanQuixote

So you figure that slapping a person across the face is "torture", eh?

231 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:44:33am

re: #230 J.S.

So you figure that slapping a person across the face is "torture", eh?

Where did I say that? I know from history that Gen MacArthur considered waterboarding to be torture.

As to roughing up prisoners in time of war, this is a reality. It is not kosher either, but we should be realistic and say that it has, and always will, happen - and sometimes may be necessary. You are bringing something different.

232 charles_martel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:45:18am
prolonged sleep deprivation and the dousing of detainees with water as cold as 41 degrees

Bah! That's Hell Week in most fraternity initiations. I had to sit in a garbage can filled with ice water and recite the Greek alphabet! This kind of ridiculous statement really does trivialize victims of REAL torture.

233 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:47:08am

re: #231 LudwigVanQuixote

You must have missed CNN's Anderson Cooper last night. One of the "reporters" by the name of Foreman said the following (he was listing off the torture techniques employed by the Dastardly United States of Amerikkka), I quote from the transcript:

"FOREMAN: Still, the list goes on. Also approved, slapping suspects in the face..." (Omg -- where's the ACLU? The horror, the horror! )

234 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:51:50am

re: #233 J.S.

You must have missed CNN's Anderson Cooper last night. One of the "reporters" by the name of Foreman said the following (he was listing off the torture techniques employed by the Dastardly United States of Amerikkka), I quote from the transcript:

"FOREMAN: Still, the list goes on. Also approved, slapping suspects in the face..." (Omg -- where's the ACLU? The horror, the horror! )

I understand your temptation to compare me with Anderson Copper given that post I wrote. I promise, I am not in his camp. However, on the narrowly defined issue of waterboarding, I think our side is much, much too quick to say it is OK and give it a pass. I really don't think we should give it a pass.

235 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:57:10am

re: #234 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm not comparing you to Anderson Cooper -- however, it is also necessary to realize what the Administration under Obama now considers "torture" -- and that now (apparently) includes "slapping the face of suspects." That's included in the list of "torture" tactics. Ok? And, the "problem" is that the list of "torture tactics" appears to be an ever expanding list -- rendering, as Charles has pointed out, the meaning of the term "torture" meaningless. The term "torture" is now without substantive meaning. Thank you, Obama.

236 Just_A_Grunt  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 11:57:52am

In my day we called that Basic Training.

237 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:00:53pm

re: #235 J.S.

That I hear. This is a case of two wrongs not making a right. Also, I am not so certain that Obama is curtailing everything interrogation wise. If he really wanted to do that, he would have prosecuted the CIA officers involved.

238 EricWRN  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:02:53pm

With all the criticism by the left about what monsters we are with our brutal torture techniques using caterpillars and LIGHT FACE SLAPPING (GASP!), have there been ANY suggestions from them about the appropriate way to detain and interrogate an enemy combatant? Has there been an ounce of actually constructive criticism from these screeching whiners?

As a side note, it's growing in popularity to call the detention center at Bagram, Afghanistan the next gitmo. I found this utterly appalling. I spent a year at Bagram and I've been to the detention center multiple times and had friends that worked in it. The biggest complaint the prisoners had while I was there? That we were making them eat strange food and they thought it was a trick. The punchline here is that they were eating the same food we were. There are some very unsavory characters at Bagram. I truly wish these morons criticizing it could spend an HOUR there getting spit at, having piss and shit thrown at them, and surrounded by prisoners who are perpetually willing to sacrifice themselves to inflict an ounce of harm against an American.

The people bitching about these interrogation techniques and inhumane detention centers aren't concerned citizens, they are anti-America propagandists whether they're aware of it or not. I'm sorry but scaring someone while taking care not to place their life or well-being in jeopardy is NOT torture.

239 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:05:42pm

re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote

No. The problem as I see it is a definitional one -- if one's definition of "torture" is overly broad (including such things as a slap in the face or on the abdomen), then you will be committing a variety of injustices. On the one hand, people who are truly tortured will be laughed at (as in, "ha, ha, what's cha complain' about, eh?"), while people who "suffer" a momentarily discomfort will be afforded the status of someone having been "tortured." It is obscene. But this is what occurs -- given definitional errors.

240 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:08:50pm

re: #238 EricWRN

With all the criticism by the left about what monsters we are with our brutal torture techniques using caterpillars and LIGHT FACE SLAPPING (GASP!), have there been ANY suggestions from them about the appropriate way to detain and interrogate an enemy combatant? Has there been an ounce of actually constructive criticism from these screeching whiners?

As a side note, it's growing in popularity to call the detention center at Bagram, Afghanistan the next gitmo. I found this utterly appalling. I spent a year at Bagram and I've been to the detention center multiple times and had friends that worked in it. The biggest complaint the prisoners had while I was there? That we were making them eat strange food and they thought it was a trick. The punchline here is that they were eating the same food we were. There are some very unsavory characters at Bagram. I truly wish these morons criticizing it could spend an HOUR there getting spit at, having piss and shit thrown at them, and surrounded by prisoners who are perpetually willing to sacrifice themselves to inflict an ounce of harm against an American.

The people bitching about these interrogation techniques and inhumane detention centers aren't concerned citizens, they are anti-America propagandists whether they're aware of it or not. I'm sorry but scaring someone while taking care not to place their life or well-being in jeopardy is NOT torture.

You make many very valid points. You are absolutely correct. Only an idiot would claim that even detaining Taliban and doing what was needed to maintain order was a violation. Unfortunately, there are many such fools.

ON the flip side, other things done that were not so savory granted such fools the courage and legitimacy of public perception to act as they do.

241 jcbunga  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:10:51pm

Was forced reading of the NYT on the torture list?

242 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:12:32pm

re: #239 J.S.

No. The problem as I see it is a definitional one -- if one's definition of "torture" is overly broad (including such things as a slap in the face or on the abdomen), then you will be committing a variety of injustices. On the one hand, people who are truly tortured will be laughed at (as in, "ha, ha, what's cha complain' about, eh?"), while people who "suffer" a momentarily discomfort will be afforded the status of someone having been "tortured." It is obscene. But this is what occurs -- given definitional errors.

I grant that point. Part of what I am saying though is that for some time waterboarding was considered to be part of the unquestioned "cannon" of torture techniques by most militaries of the world - including our own. The second our national policy crossed that threshold and blurred those lines, we made ourselves vulnerable to extreme and unrealistic perceptions of our military and how war is conducted.

243 ladycatnip  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:12:33pm

238 EricWRN

The people bitching about these interrogation techniques and inhumane detention centers aren't concerned citizens, they are anti-America propagandists whether they're aware of it or not. I'm sorry but scaring someone while taking care not to place their life or well-being in jeopardy is NOT torture.

They're aware of it.

These people are the same ones who fawn all over Castro but turn a blind eye to how his prisoners are treated. It all goes to ideology. If you're torturing (ok, gently slapping) a known terrorist, then you are evil. If it's the terrorists who are sawing off heads, it's justified.

244 EricWRN  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:13:31pm

re: #227 LudwigVanQuixote

I am likely to get some dings for this, but I feel the need to strongly disagree with many of the people here and Charles.

Without getting into an elaborate psuedo-legal debate about what is and is not torture. I should note from the start that Gen MacArthur, not known for being left wing, hanged Japanese for waterboarding our troops after the Second World War. Graphic descriptions of waterboardings of our men were heard in the Tokyo trials. Please look it up. These fell under count 54.

Interestingly enough, a little while back, a fellow lizard linked to a great old movie (from the Sixties) with Alec Guinness called Echos of Glory. The new colonel of the regiment was psychologically scarred to say the least. He had been tortured by the Germans. They had waterboarded him. He describes the sure certainty that he was droning and going to die with terrible effect.

After the second World War, there was no question from the military or even from a general movie audience that this was a terrible thing. The CIA wouldn't do it to interrogate those prisoners if it was nice.

Now I do not want to get into a relativism debate about "is it worse than the rack?" Let's say that I grant you that it is not as terrible as some other things we have done to each other as a species. Maybe it is just the foreplay to "real torture." Perhaps. But even if I grant you that, we are supposed to be the good guys.

If you act like good guys and the enemy knows that you behave like the good guys, then they are more likely to surrender. If they think that they will be abused in your hands, they are more likely to fight to the last man. This gets more of our guys killed as well as more of them. It is not clear to me at all that the potential cost in lives of this policy was offset by the value of any intelligence we received.

Further, we are supposed to be the good guys. The good guys don't even do the foreplay to bad. They would not so stain their honor.

I find this whole thing a national tragedy.

You've clearly thought this through a lot and come to what you think is a very rational and logical conclusion about a very irrational and illogical group of people.

Conventional Wisdom says that if you're nice to people and if you throw away your nuclear weapons and use smart bombs and guided missiles and shake hands with your opponents after you escort them off the battlefield, they'll be nicer to you in return for your good deeds and civility.

Reality says that your average Taliban fighter, even after 5 years, thinks that the US is a neighboring country intent on dominating afghanistan and creating a satanic empire fueled on the blood of afghani babies. This isn't hyperbole, it's experience. These are people that murder their own women and children for acts of dishonor.

You're not just wrong, you're dangerously wrong. I oppose actual torture very vehemently, but there is a fundamental lack of understanding of the reality of what's going on in this war by a LOT of people.

P.S. - You shouldn't be downticked for speaking your opinion!

245 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:26:49pm

re: #242 LudwigVanQuixote

I've also heard (from other cynics, btw) that the water-boarding and other (far more gruesome methods of so-called interrogations -- actually true torture) will continue -- only it'll be done outside the United States -- that is, "the renditions" or "torture by proxy" will continue.)

246 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:28:02pm

re: #244 EricWRN

You've clearly thought this through a lot and come to what you think is a very rational and logical conclusion about a very irrational and illogical group of people.

Conventional Wisdom says that if you're nice to people and if you throw away your nuclear weapons and use smart bombs and guided missiles and shake hands with your opponents after you escort them off the battlefield, they'll be nicer to you in return for your good deeds and civility.

Reality says that your average Taliban fighter, even after 5 years, thinks that the US is a neighboring country intent on dominating afghanistan and creating a satanic empire fueled on the blood of afghani babies. This isn't hyperbole, it's experience. These are people that murder their own women and children for acts of dishonor.

You're not just wrong, you're dangerously wrong. I oppose actual torture very vehemently, but there is a fundamental lack of understanding of the reality of what's going on in this war by a LOT of people.

P.S. - You shouldn't be downticked for speaking your opinion!

Thank you for your reply - and you really did write a great post.

However, I think you are attributing some thoughts to my arguments that are not there. I don't believe that once you have a fully indoctrinated and barbaric enemy, you can do anything other than defeat them in detail - like we did the Japanese. In fact, the Japanese make a very good parallel to what you are saying. The United States has faced fanatical, cruel and savage enemies who would rarely surrender before.

I do not believe that smart bombs will "shock and awe" them into submission. The only way to do it is to put a lot of our guys on the ground, hunt the bad guys down, and kill them.

However, there is a question about how we go about it. Consider the following photo...
Image: File:LeonardGSiffleet.jpg

What effect did such images and stories have on the resolve of the Allies? The Pacific campaign was no quarter asked and none given.

It is not a matter of conventional wisdom, but rather a matter of historical fact, that as soon as your foe starts thinking that it is preferable to fight to the death than to surrender because he thinks you are just that cruel a foe, you turn the campaign into no quarter asked and none given. In this case, it was the Japanese who took that terrible step.

I am not comparing our present forces to the Japanese. However, we should jealously guard the perception that we are nothing like them. The moonbats of the world have no understanding that war is brutal and that people get killed. There is nothing that could possibly bring reason to them.

However, for the average, not crazy person out there, when we crossed the threshold into waterboarding - something that we hanged Japanese for, we lost too much of our luster as being noble and just .

247 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:33:48pm

re: #246 LudwigVanQuixote

Oh, so now it's perceptions trumping reality? as in "However, we should jealously guard the perception that we are nothing like them." So, rendition (so long as it remains secretive) is ok? I believe that's pretty much the Obama position.

248 ladycatnip  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:34:03pm

#227 LudwigVanQuixote

I am likely to get some dings for this, but I feel the need to strongly disagree with many of the people here and Charles.

Without getting into an elaborate psuedo-legal debate about what is and is not torture. I should note from the start that Gen MacArthur, not known for being left wing, hanged Japanese for waterboarding our troops after the Second World War. Graphic descriptions of waterboardings of our men were heard in the Tokyo trials. Please look it up. These fell under count 54...If you act like good guys and the enemy knows that you behave like the good guys, then they are more likely to surrender. ..Further, we are supposed to be the good guys. The good guys don't even do the foreplay to bad. They would not so stain their honor...

I'm not sure I understand you - are you using the MacArthur example of how bad waterboarding is, or how bad MacArthur was to hang those who did it? By today's standards hanging would be considered cruel and unusual punishment and the pc Pentagon would have his head on a platter - after he was stripped of every rank and medal.

Your good guy statement is beyond naive.

249 StillAMarine  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:45:28pm

I am updinging both LudwigVanQuixote and EricWRN for making me think.
Both of you present very cogent arguments that we all should consider.

250 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:47:11pm

re: #247 J.S.

Oh, so now it's perceptions trumping reality? as in "However, we should jealously guard the perception that we are nothing like them." So, rendition (so long as it remains secretive) is ok? I believe that's pretty much the Obama position.

Actually, the idea of sending people to places like Syria, where there is no debate about whether torture will be used, sickens me. It is repugnant.

re: #248 ladycatnip

NO my statement about being the good guys is not naive. In the West, we fight because we think that we are the good guys, that our nation's cause is just. You do not have a volunteer military that gets recruits and gets public support in a democracy, if voters, or potential recruits, with Western values, believe that we are as bad as the enemy.

Further, you do not have the chance to punish a truly evil enemy for their crimes if your image is so clouded.

Further than that, there is the issue that not all of our foes are indoctrinated to the level of the Taliban. Other conflicts, where they might surrender and behave - because they think we will treat them justly will arise.

On a deeper level, there is the issue of right and wrong itself. If I believed (and I do not) the moonbat lines about how evil my nation supposedly is, I would feel it my duty to oppose her, like any other evil thing. That said, when we start breaking our basic principles in the name of expediency, I shudder.

I am not talking about occasional roughing up of prisoners to maintain order. I am not saying that the best way to get information from them is always to give them tea and cookies. I am saying that we have crossed a number of lines. I am saying that by crossing those lines we have damaged ourselves legally and morally. I am saying that we have given ammunition to the moonbats. I am saying that we have toughened world resolve against us. I am saying that we have weakened ourselves at home and abroad.

251 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 12:57:09pm

re: #249 StillAMarine

I am updinging both LudwigVanQuixote and EricWRN for making me think.
Both of you present very cogent arguments that we all should consider.

Thank you.

252 EricWRN  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 1:07:53pm

re: #246 LudwigVanQuixote

Well that's an excellent point and whole debacle at Abu Ghraib exemplifies that. Truth be told, those soldiers were idiots and deserve the punishment they got. And it's truly quaint how the left rallied behind that to vilify our military and fuel anti-US sentiment too.

I may have jumped on you unfairly after misunderstanding you. I certainly don't disagree with anything you just said. I simply believe that there is a vast disconnect between conventional wisdom and what the reality of this war and who we're fighting is.

My personal opinion is that the media alone has ruined our ability to wage war successfully. First, by giving a minute-by-minute, blow-by-blow update of how brutal war is to a civilian public who will never truly understand. Second, by saturating the world with an isolated event (abu ghraib) that truly does make us look bad, while giving little to no mention of the DAILY humanitarian deeds and missions performed in afghanistan and iraq, not to mention the rest of the world.

While I was in Bagram, the Afghani's brought us a little boy who had a congenital heart defect which would have, with 100% certainty, have killed him before the age of 5. We arranged to have the boy (and mother) flown to America to have life-saving heart surgery performed, and flown back to Afghanistan. So while conventional wisdom says our enemy will judge us by our character and act accordingly, it's simply not the case. To my knowledge, not a single taliban or al qaeda fighter has rescued an american after blowing him or her up with a roadside bomb.

253 BlueCanuck  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 1:21:04pm

Okay, just read the NY Slimes article. If these forms of "torture" are so horrible, can I sue the Military for infringing on my human rights? Sounds like typical training to me. I have seen Military Intelligence in operation on exercise. They used way harsher stuff then that. I mean, those raised voices really scared the crap out of me.

/partial sarc

254 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 1:23:14pm

re: #250 LudwigVanQuixote

"It is repugnant." Isn't that a statement of the obvious? (ie, that shipping off suspects to be tortured by foreign countries which have no qualms about the use of torture -- yeah, that's repugnant. But that's also reality and one of the ironies, isn't it? Obama's closing of Gitmo, the outlawing of slapping suspects, of sleep deprivations, etc, etc, where does this lead? other than to the increased liklihood of having "torture by proxy" and renditions (and, highly likely that that may also include innocent people) -- and, there will be no legal hair-splitters screaming about the tortuous use of "face slaps", and the "loud music" and the "lights always on" policies, in, say, Syria. Again, all a consequence of failing to arrive at an adequate, workable definition of what constitutes "torture."

255 Mauser  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 1:32:15pm

All of this "torture" sounds suspiciously to me like an episode of Fear Factor. All they need now is a box full of Madagascar Hissing Cockroaches.

256 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 1:34:29pm

I'm on the Left side of the torture debate. I migrated over to that side at the end of 2006 due to the Military Commissions Act, and its critique by James Bovard. But Ludwig as he so often does offers a pretty good critique of his own.

I wrote a blogpost on Bovard at the time, but it went down with the rest of my blog. "Dog ate my homework", I know.

I really wish I could give this thread the comment I think it deserves. Unfortunately I still feel like crap. (If it hadn't been for yesterday's meltdown, I'd no doubt post something so monumentally stupid it would be held up as Zimriel's Infamous Torture Post for years to come.) I'm sure interrogation technique will come up again in here so I'll say something then.

So... how will we feel when interrogation techniques are used to uncover the hidden assets and secret bank accounts of Tax Traitors? :^)

257 ladycatnip  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 1:36:33pm

250 LudwigVanQuixote

...On a deeper level, there is the issue of right and wrong itself. If I believed (and I do not) the moonbat lines about how evil my nation supposedly is, I would feel it my duty to oppose her, like any other evil thing. That said, when we start breaking our basic principles in the name of expediency, I shudder.

I am not talking about occasional roughing up of prisoners to maintain order. I am not saying that the best way to get information from them is always to give them tea and cookies. I am saying that we have crossed a number of lines. I am saying that by crossing those lines we have damaged ourselves legally and morally. I am saying that we have given ammunition to the moonbats. I am saying that we have toughened world resolve against us. I am saying that we have weakened ourselves at home and abroad.

Thank you, I understand your pov a bit better and I admit jumping to the conclusion that you were of the moonbat mindset after reading your #227.

You do present a very thoughtful argument. I don't agree, however, that the world sees us in a negative light because of waterboarding. America has been the favorite whipping boy for some time now prior to this war on terror. I lived in Germany for two years in the mid-1970's and the contempt for the U.S. was palpable; not a day went by that my co-workers didn't make some snide remark about Americans.

The bottom line is brutes respect strength - from playground bullies to islamic terrorists. Respect for the U.S. will increase when we grow bigger cashews, draw a line in the sand and then make good on it. The more we apologize and hand-wring, the less we are respected by other nations.

258 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 1:44:05pm

re: #252 EricWRN


My personal opinion is that the media alone has ruined our ability to wage war successfully. First, by giving a minute-by-minute, blow-by-blow update of how brutal war is to a civilian public who will never truly understand. Second, by saturating the world with an isolated event (abu ghraib) that truly does make us look bad, while giving little to no mention of the DAILY humanitarian deeds and missions performed in afghanistan and iraq, not to mention the rest of the world.

While I was in Bagram, the Afghani's brought us a little boy who had a congenital heart defect which would have, with 100% certainty, have killed him before the age of 5. We arranged to have the boy (and mother) flown to America to have life-saving heart surgery performed, and flown back to Afghanistan. So while conventional wisdom says our enemy will judge us by our character and act accordingly, it's simply not the case. To my knowledge, not a single taliban or al qaeda fighter has rescued an american after blowing him or her up with a roadside bomb.

Well said. I don't dissagree with a single thing you have said either - and you will certainly never catch me sympathizing with scum like the Taliban. I am harboring no illusions that "just being nice to them" is suddenly going to give them pause and cause them to rethink their actions or morality.
I am not arguing that at all. Not all Japanese loved the notion of the Empire and sending their kids to die for the Emperor more than their kids also.

I am arguing that not everyone, even in Afghanistan is Taliban. However brutal or terrible the people there are, every act of doing what Americans should be doing, like helping that little boy you mentioned, will have some value. Maybe, we get a tip from a family member. Maybe, someone tells us that the Talis are in a certain village. The flip side is that if we give our enemies the ability to paint us in a brutal light, we do not get those things. Even, deeper than that is the flip side.

If you have brutal people, they imagine what they would do to you if you captured they captured you. The necessarily project that onto their expectations of your soldiers. Japanese civilians at Okinawa fought like samurai, or threw themselves off of cliffs rather than be captured, not only because they believed we were so cruel, but because they knew how cruel their own forces were and expected the same in return. People used to harshens expect harshness. If you give them any reason to believe that you are harsh they will necessarily assume the worst of you, because they expect the worst.

Your point about the media actually dovetails with my own in many ways. In America and Europe, we do not have hardened and abused masses of backwards nations. Quite the opposite, we have the rigors of indolence. Our Military did it's job too well. Only those who volunteer - or go out to see the world outside of their television have a real clue about just how brutal and harsh the world really is. It is not just a matter of them being soft, it is a matter of middle class kids always having a sense of safety and security - always having food and always having shelter. They assume that because of this, everyone is nice and everyone will want to share and play nice. It is easy to smile and share if you always have in abundance. This promotes a notion that the "rules" of everyday life in the suburbs apply to the battlefield as well.

How do you explain to them that no, in war, the morality is to win with getting as few of your people killed as possible and that the way to do this is to hit the enemy as hard as you can? That hitting the enemy means killing them and breaking their will to fight?

The media only gives people what it wants to see. People do not (for actually very sane reasons) want to face the grim realities of war. However, in earlier, tougher times, people had more of an inkling.

259 Zimriel  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 1:46:02pm

re: #257 ladycatnip

250 LudwigVanQuixote
...
The bottom line is brutes respect strength - from playground bullies to islamic terrorists. Respect for the U.S. will increase when we grow bigger cashews, draw a line in the sand and then make good on it. The more we apologize and hand-wring, the less we are respected by other nations.

How about the argument that a precedent set by the Right to be used against foreign opponents can be subverted by the Left to be used against class opponents...?

Are tea-party protesters not a fifth column in the War on Poverty...?

260 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 1:58:36pm

re: #259 Zimriel

How about the argument that a precedent set by the Right to be used against foreign opponents can be subverted by the Left to be used against class opponents...?

Are tea-party protesters not a fifth column in the War on Poverty...?

Yes and warrantless wire taps too...

261 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 2:13:32pm

re: #257 ladycatnip

I absolutely agree we need to fight. We absolutely need to grow some cashews as you put it. Handwringing will only strengthen our foes.

However, we must fight with our honor and our principles intact. If we do not, for one thing, we will never convince the moonbats that they have a stake in this too, they will get too hung up on our own infractions - and for another, we will, we really will, only toughen the resolve of our left leaning "allies" against any actions we need to take.

All of that though is secondary to the fact that we shine because we are above certain things. We dare not loose that.

262 ladycatnip  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 2:30:08pm

261 LudwigVanQuixote

Agree with you, yet the problem of finding that honorable standard and what constitutes the gray on either side of it will be difficult if not impossible. This complex issue is even further convoluted by countless people on both sides of the political aisle. Who decides the honorable standard? What may be a mild form of hazing by one decision-maker may be seen as torture to another.

Don't think we're going to be seeing the answer to this problem anytime soon. Much of it depends upon Obama's policies and whether they keep America from being attacked. Should there be another horrific attack on American soil, I have a feeling that any pc treatment of prisoners will fly out the window - public outrage will take care of that.

263 Bradley F  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 2:30:44pm

"Passages describing forced nudity, the slamming of detainees into walls, prolonged sleep deprivation and the dousing of detainees with water as cold as 41 degrees"...

This reeks of Phi Kappa Tau tactics, Cal State Fullerton, circa 1976!

264 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 2:54:22pm

re: #262 ladycatnip

261 LudwigVanQuixote

Agree with you, yet the problem of finding that honorable standard and what constitutes the gray on either side of it will be difficult if not impossible. This complex issue is even further convoluted by countless people on both sides of the political aisle. Who decides the honorable standard? What may be a mild form of hazing by one decision-maker may be seen as torture to another.

Don't think we're going to be seeing the answer to this problem anytime soon. Much of it depends upon Obama's policies and whether they keep America from being attacked. Should there be another horrific attack on American soil, I have a feeling that any pc treatment of prisoners will fly out the window - public outrage will take care of that.

And yet with the even more horrific attack on Pearl Harbor, not to diminish 9-11 at all, we still did not waterboard Japanese prisoners and we still did not torture.

Getting into a precise what is and is not torture debate on exactly where the line is, is quite like trying to distinguish art with nudity in it, or literature that discusses sexuality from pornography. I will simply fall back on the position that wherever the line is, somethings are far enough over the line that pretty much everyone can make the call.

The fact is, that until President Bush suddenly made waterboarding OK, it was clearly considered over the line by our military and most of the rest of the world. But, let's forget about that for a moment. Certainly, sending folks to Syria, counts. Certainly, we do not doubt that the Syrians do much worse.

May I ask what in G-d's name is this nation thinking by doing such evil? May I ask how we can possibly stand that this is being done in our name? In MY name as an American? Hell, half of the time I am going on about how evil the Syrians are. Half of the time I am advocating that some of our "cashews" as you put it get pointed at them. And, not only are we in bed with them, but we are doing evil things with them.

This makes me sick. It does not go unnoticed by our allies or our foes either.

265 odorlesspaintthinner  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 3:00:20pm

re: #16 redc1c4

you misspelled "an absolute fucking moron"

Okay, this is going to be my favorite new joke to use...

266 J.S.  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 3:34:17pm

I just read the so-called "torture memos" (collected in a pdf), and I'm now convinced that this information should never have been made public...way, way, way too much info. (In the Wall Street Journal there's also an opinion piece written in part by Hayden -- the authors argue that the worse case scenario for the CIA is to be forever oscillating between periods of excessive aggression, followed by excessive timidity -- all contingent on the political climate of any given administration...I agree.) I also don't like the fact that the memo writers had their names affixed...(oh, and speaking of allies, can other countries now trust the CIA to keep info secret? or will it all be revealed in some political witch hunt? in other words, is there such a thing as "classified information" any longer in the United States? Again, have to say, Thanks Obama! said with dripping sarcasm.)

267 Salamantis  Fri, Apr 17, 2009 6:01:28pm

For a long time we tried other less intrusive techniques on Khalid Shaykh Mohammed, with no success. However, two and a half minutes of waterboarding persuaded him to give up his terror associates, and to reveal several ongoing terror plots that were then prevented from being perpetrated. Had they remained unknown and succeeded, thousands of innocent civilian citizens would have died horrific deaths.

Had we not waterboarded him, and those terror plots had subsequently reached fruition, who would have felt righteous, or virtuous, or comfortable explaining to the surviving family and friends of the dead that their relatives and loved ones died because we lacked the will and resolve to do what was necessary in order to prevent their deaths and save their lives, and that, after their terrible losses, we still considered it to be the right and moral decision?

Khalid Shaykh Mohammed also was the chief field organizer of the 9-11 trocity. Had we captured him several days before 9-11, and known that a massive terror attack was in the offing, but not known where or by what means it was planned to take place, would it or would it not have been acceptable to waterboard that bloody-handed terror mastermind then, in order to extract the information necessary to apprehend the terror flyers before they could perpetrate that vast atrocity upon masses of unsuspecting civilian citizens merely trying to make a decent living, raise their families, and live their own lives in peace, prosperity, and freedom?

I say that it would have been regrettably necessary to do so, and that a failure to so act would have been a feckless and cowardly abandonment and betrayal of all the innocents who died in that attack.

The world we live in is not perfect, or even in principle perfectable. Sometimes, choices must be made between the bad and the far, far worse, and unquestionably distasteful things must be done in order to prevent much greater evils.

268 retief_99  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 12:00:16am

I could get upset about the perceived torture we committed on the prisoners at Guantanamo or Abu Graib (sic), if there was 1/100th the outcry about the inhumane behavior of the Taliban or Al Quaida. I was tortured a bit during escape and evasion school in the Marines, we were roundly beaten and kicked, struck with rifle butts and and tied up to "apache poles" forced to kneel with our hands behind our heads on large gravel. This was to show us that we may face if captured. During this time a passing grade was being able to only give name, rank, and serial number. All the guards were of Asian descent and were very good in their roles.This was very unpleasant, some Marines gave in, it is easy to be courageous at times, sometimes it is not. Except for the "water boarding" I would say our treatment was as severe if not more severe than any torture the US has supposedly committed on these prisoners. I have very little sympathy for the Muslim characters in this respect. Their methods involve sawing peoples heads of for the Friday night movie. Gouging out peoples eyes for not following the rule of Islam. Breaking their neighbors legs because they may have a different political viewpoint. Stoning little girls to death because they were raped. So I see things relatively, there is a gap a light year across between what is being called inhumane behavior as is being performed by the US and what really is inhumane behavior. Calling what is being done by the US torture is doing nothing but redefining the term to encompass too hot, too cold, or too loud.

269 Ben F  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 5:43:44am

1) I am repulsed by those who "define torture down" by positing that it's OK to use various methods of torture so long as our enemies use worse ones.

2) If you don't think this is serious torture then you are not familiar with the neuropsychological literature. Our methods resemble those used by the Brits in Northern Ireland, and the long-term effects on the victims can be absolutely devastating.

E.g., [Link: www.greenwood.com...]

In a moral society such as our own, the torturers themselves are traumatized by the process as well, a fact that has been readily and repeatedly documented.

This is very disappointing, Charles. For years you have derided those who contended that we were torturing. The critics have been proven 100% correct, yet you remain thoroughly dismissive.

270 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 11:49:10am

re: #269 Ben F

This is very disappointing, Charles. For years you have derided those who contended that we were torturing. The critics have been proven 100% correct, yet you remain thoroughly dismissive.

Somehow, I'll have to live with your disappointment. I do not agree that these aggressive interrogation techniques cross the line into "torture," with the possible exception of waterboarding -- and that particular tactic was only used on three terrorists, all of whom had vitally important information we needed to get, in a time of war.

271 benzguy  Sat, Apr 18, 2009 5:23:33pm

I went to an all boys Catholic High School in the early 70's. Now they practiced real torture there! Bug in a box geez.....

272 mojo9  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:04:51am

pretty much describes my frat initiation!

273 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:33:12pm

"REAL" New Yorkers - at least in 2001-2 would have administered WOOD SHAMPOOS and ASPHALT FACIALS without regret!
"Search Engine" - 'Dershowitz, warrant for torture'
The "War" did not move fast enough, next time - hint, hint - use ALL of your power and - STEAL THEIR OIL!
99.9 cents per gallon Gasoline would CHANGE a lot of minds in the City of New York. Even Liberal Jewish ones - a tribe I used to belong to - Still Jewish, NOT LIBERAL.
With apologies to the Chinese Philosophers - VICTORY has 1000 Fathers - Defeat or Dithering IS AN ORPHAN.

-S-


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