What Right Wing Extremists?

US News • Views: 4,761

Anyone think stories like this might have something to do with the Department of Homeland Security being concerned about right wing extremism? Bomb-maker talked of Obama, Clinton assassination, feds say.

A Clearfield County man caught with several homemade bombs told undercover federal agents how he would hope to see Sens. Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama assassinated if either of them reaches the White House, according to an affidavit unsealed today.

Bradley T. Kahle, 60, of Troutville was arrested Sunday by the Pittsburgh Joint Terrorism Task Force on a charge of unlawful import or manufacture of firearms.

Kahle unwittingly discussed his ominous desires with undercover FBI agents in April, according to federal authorities.

“Kahle said words to the effect of, that ‘if Hillary Clinton, or Barack Obama, get elected, hopefully they will get assassinated, if not they will disarm the country and we will have a civil war,’” FBI Special Agent William B. Weiss wrote in an eight-page affidavit.

Kahle had two AK-47 assault rifles, a sniper rifle and approximately 500 rounds of ammunition in his possession when he made that comment, Weiss wrote.

According to Weiss, undercover FBI agents have routinely met with Kahle since February 2007, when the man provided detailed instructions on how to make a “bean can grenade.”

Kahle told the agents the improvised explosive devices used powerful firecrackers and nails inside a can with the top cut off. He said the explosives could be used to kill police officers if they attempted to raid his house.

Or maybe stories like this? Militia probe began at ‘flamethrower party,’ agent says.

Two men with alleged ties to area militias — who are self-proclaimed “survivalists” — will remain in the Allegheny County Jail pending disposition of their charges in federal court on weapons violations.

Perry Landis, 62, of Du Bois, Clearfield County, is charged with selling blasting caps to undercover agents on Sept. 29, 2007, and March 27.

During a hearing this afternoon before U.S. District Magistrate Judge Amy Reynolds Hay, FBI agent Daniel Yocca testified that Mr. Landis crafted “one hell of a mean grenade,” using pill bottles and CO-2 cartridges to provide propulsion. He also made an ammunition belt to store several medicine bottle grenades at one time.

Mr. Yocca told the judge that Mr. Landis is the sergeant at arms of a group called the Brookville Tiger Militia, which met in a cabin on his property.

He also testified that Mr. Landis told undercover officers that if Hillary Clinton won the presidency, it would be a good thing because she would demand disarmament, and “we would come out of the woodwork.”

Earlier in the day, Judge Hay ordered that Marvin E. Hall, of Rimersberg, remain in custody. He is accused of making exploding golf balls and a host of other weapons. Judge Hay deemed him a flight risk and a danger to the community.

Mr. Hall was arrested Sunday in a raid during which federal agents seized a laundry list of ammunition, explosives and firearms from his home.

FBI agents and the Pennsylvania State Police had been investigating Mr. Hall since 2005, when undercover agents met him at a “flamethrower party,” a gathering for neighbors, gun owners and aspiring militia members in Clarion County, Mr. Yocca said.

The FBI launched its probe to “target militias and individuals in militias who have a propensity toward violence,” but Mr. Hall told undercover agents he was not part of such a group, Mr. Yocca said. However, he continued that, if need be, he would associate himself with a group called the 91st Warrior, the agent testified.

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636 comments
1 Chicken Kiev  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:46:41am

uh oh

2 EaterOfFood  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:49:25am

Oh, THAT right wing extremism. The way some people said it you’d think the FBI were investigating everyone who voted against Obama.

Relax, people. If you’re not actively plotting treason or terrorism you have little to fear.

3 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:52:12am

Most people associate Right Wing, as opposed to Left Wing, as people who are Conservatives, meaning believers and supporters of the constitution as well as all the other asundry non-left wing stuff like a strong defense - Peace through Stength, etc.

And these two fine men you bring us today are fine examples of the majority of Right Wingers aren’t they.

4 zenpig  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:52:47am

great, generic right wing extremism stories to fit the generic DHS report on right wing extremism. This is just getting lame on all sides.

5 Immolate  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:53:24am

Ah, so if I’m not one of those Tim McVeigh, skinhead/jew-hating militia nuts, then it’s all good and I shouldn’t be offended by being lumped with them and any perception that I have been lumped with them is my own and nobody elses and says more about me than it does about DHS? Oh… alright then… carry on.

6 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:53:33am

re: #4 zenpig

What part is the generic part?

7 rain of lead  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:53:34am

just one of those things that make you go hmmmm……

8 Racer X  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:54:11am

re: #2 EaterOfFood

Oh, THAT right wing extremism. The way some people said it you’d think the FBI were investigating everyone who voted against Obama.

Relax, people. If you’re not actively plotting treason or terrorism you have little to fear.

Exactly!

Same as those on the left under Bush. They had little to fear unless they were actively plotting to vandalize a Hummer dealership or helping to funnel money to alQaeda.

9 tom from pv  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:54:13am

I looked for the term “right winger” in the article. Didn’t find it, but I’m sure its encoded in some way. Probably “militia” is the key. Obviously we need to investigate all right-winger groups and individuals since plotting assassinations and bombings is part and parcel of the “right-winger” raison d’etre.

It would help is the media would be a bit more explicit too. They should help the public discern which groups are dangerous and which are not by using the term “right winger” directly in their stories.

10 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:54:19am

re: #4 zenpig

great, generic right wing extremism stories to fit the generic DHS report on right wing extremism. This is just getting lame on all sides.

And so are you. If you don’t like what the owner of this blog posts, then leave.

11 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:54:40am

re: #4 zenpig

Registered since: Nov 27, 2007 at 6:57 pm
No. of comments posted: 1
No. of links posted: 0

12 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:54:49am

Aryan Nations recruiting again in N. Idaho

The Aryan Nations has returned to northern Idaho with what it is calling a “world headquarters” and is recruiting new members.

Coeur d’Alene resident Jerald O’Brien is one of the leaders of the white supremacist group and said he expects membership to grow due to the election of President Barack Obama.

He told The Spokesman-Review that the president is the “greatest recruiting tool ever” and that “like-minded individuals will respond and seek membership.”

Residents of a Coeur d’Alene subdivision on Friday found recruitment fliers on their lawns and O’Brien said a lot more fliers will be distributed. He said the group has “several handfuls” of members in the city.

The fliers show a young girl asking her father “Why did those dark men take mommy away?”

/hey Janet, over here

13 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:55:23am

These stories are about specific events and people. Nothing generic about them.

14 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:55:44am

re: #2 EaterOfFood

Oh, THAT right wing extremism. The way some people said it you’d think the FBI were investigating everyone who voted against Obama.

Relax, people. If you’re not actively plotting treason or terrorism you have little to fear.

Unless you are peace loving, non-racist, right wing people like myself, then you better get worried because the Democrats, not just DHS are trying very hard to reclassify you as racist Nazi flag carrying terrorists.

15 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:55:46am

re: #5 Immolate

Ah, so if I’m not one of those Tim McVeigh, skinhead/jew-hating militia nuts, then it’s all good and I shouldn’t be offended by being lumped with them and any perception that I have been lumped with them is my own and nobody elses and says more about me than it does about DHS? Oh… alright then… carry on.

The DHS report did not lump anyone with the extremists except other extremists. Did you read it for yourself, or are you just repeating what’s been said on blogs and Fox News?

16 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:55:49am
17 Immolate  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:56:11am

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

And so are you. If you don’t like what the owner of this blog posts, then leave.

Oh stop being a nancy-boy. Dissent is still allowed here. Right Charles?

18 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:56:38am

re: #4 zenpig

First post. Great job. The sleepers are waking up.

19 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:56:44am

re: #3 cincinnati_kid37

Most people associate Right Wing, as opposed to Left Wing, as people who are Conservatives, meaning believers and supporters of the constitution as well as all the other asundry non-left wing stuff like a strong defense - Peace through Stength, etc.

And these two fine men you bring us today are fine examples of the majority of Right Wingers aren’t they.

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? Does the word “extremist” just slip right past your eyes as if it doesn’t exist?

20 tom from pv  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:57:35am

re: #3 cincinnati_kid37

And these two fine men you bring us today are fine examples of the majority of Right Wingers aren’t they.

You missed the point, imho. People who bomb and assassinate are, by definition, “right-wingers”. If one decides to bomb and assassinate, they have become part of the “right wing”.

Sure, there may be tons of people who don’t bomb and assassinate and are also part of the vast “right wing” in this country. But that’s only because they’re not “right wing” enough!

See how it works?

21 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:57:55am

In fairness, these incidents happened in my home state of Pennsylvania - Home of the bitter, gun-clingers.

/////

22 Jimmah  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:58:57am

Agreed. Unfortunately there seem to be some very loud people around who are taking great pains to define themselves as the extremists referenced in the document in order to claim oppression and persecution, and to convince themselves that Obamageddon is just around the corner. A true friend of the conservatives is one like Charles who points out how insane this is. People like Glenn Beck are encouraging conservatives down the road to political ruin.

23 brookly red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:59:12am

re: #20 tom from pv

uh, no it’s lost on me…

24 Opinionated  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:59:16am

Mentally unbalanced takes many forms.

If they want to target Obama they are characterized as Right Wing Extremists.

If they attack an immigrant absorption center, we wonder what pissed them off.

If a woman rapes and murders a child, we have no clue.

Most of these crazies are not right wing or left wing no mater how they channel their insanity or who their targets are, they’re just plain nuts.

But only in one case is a political philosophy blamed.

We have plenty of crazies on our side, as does the Left, but their infirmity is that they are crazy first, not political first.

25 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 10:59:45am

re: #20 tom from pv

You forgot to include “whining” as an indicator, but everyone can take it as read.

26 Immolate  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:00:01am

re: #15 Charles

The DHS report did not lump anyone with the extremists except other extremists. Did you read it for yourself, or are you just repeating what’s been said on blogs and Fox News?

I don’t watch Fox (or any other TV for that matter). I’ve been getting my news from blogs such as this one and Powerline since Rathergate, with occasional forays out into the media to research issues of greater interest to me.

27 Mithrax  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:01:47am

In reading these stories, something struck me:

The reason the folks charged in this stuff sound like really wacko nutjubs, is because they are.

So far, despite people’s best attempts at fearmongering, the vast majority of people have no need to fear the knock at midnight.

28 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:02:02am

re: #4 zenpig

great, generic right wing extremism stories to fit the generic DHS report on right wing extremism. This is just getting lame on all sides.

So up till now, everything was ok?

A man and woman got married and had a little boy who was very healthy, but as he got older his parents noticed that he never spoke. This concerned his parents greatly. They took their son to several doctors who ran series of tests and told them that the boy was perfectly healthy but would probably never speak. Resigned, the parent took their son home and did everything in their power to keep him happy. One night seven years later while eating dinner, the little boy looked up from his plate and said in a clear voice, “These peas are cold.” Overjoyed, his parents celebrated and hugged and kissed him. “Oh,” they said. “Were so happy. We thought you couldn’t speak. Why haven’t you spoken until now?” The boy looked at his parents and said, “Well up until these peas, everythings been fine.”
29 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:02:05am

re: #26 Immolate

I don’t watch Fox (or any other TV for that matter). I’ve been getting my news from blogs such as this one and Powerline since Rathergate, with occasional forays out into the media to research issues of greater interest to me.

So you haven’t seen Megyn Kelly? You don’t know what you’re missing!

30 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:02:09am

re: #26 Immolate

I don’t watch Fox (or any other TV for that matter). I’ve been getting my news from blogs such as this one and Powerline since Rathergate, with occasional forays out into the media to research issues of greater interest to me.

So you didn’t read it.

31 Racer X  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:02:39am

I think it is important to not take offense when the term “right wing extremest” pops up. I am not an extremist; I have no problem making fun of extremists on either side. In fact I’m thinking of dropping the term “Right” from my profile. I prefer the term “Sane wing”, although some may disagree with me on that.

32 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:02:53am

My unscientific rule of thumb is that 10% of any group is nuts. I don’t care if you’re talking about priests or doctors, poiticians, religious believers or lizards for that matter.
The key is to disassociate those nuts from staining and branding the entire group.

33 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:03:17am

re: #20 tom from pv

People who bomb and assassinate are, by definition, “right-wingers”. If one decides to bomb and assassinate, they have become part of the “right wing”.

Sure, there may be tons of people who don’t bomb and assassinate and are also part of the vast “right wing” in this country. But that’s only because they’re not “right wing” enough!

Did you play football without a helmet?

34 thebigolddog  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:04:09am

What’s up with these crazy 60 year olds?

35 madeindetroit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:04:15am

The problem is not that the federal government is issuing reports about a potential rise in extremist sympathizers, there are Timothy McVeighs out there and they hurt anyone who gets in the way of their goals. The problem starts with the interpretation of these memos and the actual actions taken by law enforcement personnel. Take for example this memo:

On page 6 it tells me to watch out for anyone who claims to be a libertarian, on page 5 it suggests those who are anti-abortion could become violent. Now, some libertarians are unhinged and some anti-abortion folk are violent and possibly dangerous. Would that be all of them? Not so much. My concern is that the paramilitary organizations (that’s the police in most areas) don’t know who is dangerous and who isn’t and so will begin to treat the majority as if they behave like the dangerous minority. That’s fascism and that’s the mentality that can lead to people being led away to camps. Does that mean that all police will behave in such a manner? Not any more likely than most anti-abortion folk bombing clinics or most libertarians hijacking planes. Just as the govt should be worried about the few, so should we worry about those few. I am even more concerned that support of a political party is now enough to make one a suspect. Is that really a democracy anymore?
36 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:04:27am

re: #33 sattv4u2

People who bomb and assassinate are, by definition, “right-wingers”. If one decides to bomb and assassinate, they have become part of the “right wing”.

Sure, there may be tons of people who don’t bomb and assassinate and are also part of the vast “right wing” in this country. But that’s only because they’re not “right wing” enough!

Did you play football without a helmet?

Maybe Rugby.

37 Mithrax  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:05:10am

re: #36 Erik The Red

Maybe Rugby.

Rugby players have leather balls.

38 Jim D  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:05:25am

re: #24 Opinionated

Great! More deflection. They’re crazy, not right wing. And anyway the left is worse. Let’s all keep on pretending there are no problems with the right.

39 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:05:28am

re: #20 tom from pv

People who bomb and assassinate are, by definition, “right-wingers”. If one decides to bomb and assassinate, they have become part of the “right wing”.

Sure, there may be tons of people who don’t bomb and assassinate and are also part of the vast “right wing” in this country. But that’s only because they’re not “right wing” enough!

See how it works?

Pure denialist crap.

40 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:05:51am

re: #20 tom from pv

You missed the point, imho. People who bomb and assassinate are, by definition, “right-wingers”. If one decides to bomb and assassinate, they have become part of the “right wing”.

Sure, there may be tons of people who don’t bomb and assassinate and are also part of the vast “right wing” in this country. But that’s only because they’re not “right wing” enough!

See how it works?

Oh only right wingers kill, gotcha.
Dipshit.

41 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:06:01am

re: #37 Mithrax

Rugby players have leather balls.

BIG BRASS BALLS

FTFY

42 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:06:02am

Charles needs to add a “Heads Explode at LGF” thread - I’ve never seen so many come out of the woodwork so quickly to criticize Charles. Stay classy, lurkers!

43 madeindetroit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:06:10am

re: #33 sattv4u2


Did you play football without a helmet?

Doesn’t everyone outside of the US play football without a helmet? I believe it’s called soccer here.

44 Opinionated  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:06:31am

Somehow I doubt that in his eight years in office, the Secret Service was not busy investigating threats against George Bush. And I don’t mean from Jihadists.

Assuming one or two or more crazy individuals did threaten the President, what sort of extremists were they?

45 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:06:35am

re: #9 tom from pv

I looked for the term “right winger” in the article. Didn’t find it, but I’m sure its encoded in some way. Probably “militia” is the key. Obviously we need to investigate all right-winger groups and individuals since plotting assassinations and bombings is part and parcel of the “right-winger” raison d’etre.

It would help is the media would be a bit more explicit too. They should help the public discern which groups are dangerous and which are not by using the term “right winger” directly in their stories.

So this

“Kahle said words to the effect of, that ‘if Hillary Clinton, or Barack Obama, get elected, hopefully they will get assassinated, if not they will disarm the country and we will have a civil war,’” FBI Special Agent William B. Weiss wrote in an eight-page affidavit.

and this

He also testified that Mr. Landis told undercover officers that if Hillary Clinton won the presidency, it would be a good thing because she would demand disarmament, and “we would come out of the woodwork.”

are irrelevant, I suppose.

/

46 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:06:39am

re: #40 DEZes

Oh only right wingers kill, gotcha.
Dipshit.

Great, Now I have to go beat someone to death.

///

47 Immolate  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:07:18am

re: #22 Jimmah

Agreed. Unfortunately there seem to be some very loud people around who are taking great pains to define themselves as the extremists referenced in the document in order to claim oppression and persecution, and to convince themselves that Obamageddon is just around the corner. A true friend of the conservatives is one like Charles who points out how insane this is. People like Glenn Beck are encouraging conservatives down the road to political ruin.

Beck must have been a fairly regional phenomenon until recently. I remember reading something about him on one of the conservative blogs years ago, and it wasn’t a complimentary thing… more of a scandal of some sort. Back then the blogs were less-than-impressed with his qualities. I’ve never experienced him in my neck of the woods (central FL).

I have no idea what his beliefs are, just that he’s become a target of those critical of conservatives lately.

48 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:07:26am

re: #33 sattv4u2

People who bomb and assassinate are, by definition, “right-wingers”. If one decides to bomb and assassinate, they have become part of the “right wing”.

Sure, there may be tons of people who don’t bomb and assassinate and are also part of the vast “right wing” in this country. But that’s only because they’re not “right wing” enough!

Did you play football without a helmet?

Those guys were hard core - He plays Playstation without a wrist guard.

49 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:07:37am

re: #42 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Charles needs to add a “Heads Explode at LGF” thread - I’ve never seen so many come out of the woodwork so quickly to criticize Charles. Stay classy, lurkers!

Since closing the Lounge. Come out and play sleeping gecko’s.

50 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:07:45am

re: #35 madeindetroit

Take for example this memo: [Link: www.scribd.com…] On page 6 it tells me to watch out for anyone who claims to be a libertarian, on page 5 it suggests those who are anti-abortion could become violent. Now, some libertarians are unhinged and some anti-abortion folk are violent and possibly dangerous. Would that be all of them? Not so much.

I invite people to go read the report you linked, because they’ll discover that you are completely distorting what it says.

51 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:08:00am

re: #48 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Those guys were hard core - He plays Playstation without a wrist guard.

Drinks soda without a straw!

52 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:08:28am

re: #46 Wyatt Earp

Great, Now I have to go beat someone to death.

///

Beating them senseless would be redundant I suppose.
//

53 madeindetroit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:08:55am

re: #50 Charles

I invite people to go read the report you linked, because they’ll discover that you are completely distorting what it says.


Really? How so?

54 tom from pv  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:08:57am

re: #24 Opinionated

We had a similar thread yesterday. It kind of devolved into a discussion on whether Nazis were right-wing or left-wing. I passed out before the mystery was solved, but the discussion seemed pretty energetic at the time. Your comment is interesting in the same way.

This could be the same sort of discussion. Are bombers and assassins always extremists of the “right wing”? Are militias (groups with guns, imo) always “right wing”?

If so, the DHO has a point. Our soldiers use guns, thus must be on the right wing. When they leave the service, who’s to tell if they’ve become extreme in their right wing views? Hence the need to investigate all leads.

BTW, I personally don’t think bombers and assassins have a “wing”. Like Al Capone, they’re just mean, vicious, mentally ill people who like to kill others who are weaker than themselves. I wish we could just drop the constant partisan warfare and improve the US instead.

55 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:08:58am

re: #47 Immolate

Beck must have been a fairly regional phenomenon until recently. I remember reading something about him on one of the conservative blogs years ago, and it wasn’t a complimentary thing… more of a scandal of some sort. Back then the blogs were less-than-impressed with his qualities. I’ve never experienced him in my neck of the woods (central FL).

I have no idea what his beliefs are, just that he’s become a target of those critical of conservatives lately.

Beck has had the third most listened to radio talk show in the country for 4-5 years.

It’s evident that you talk without having any info, but that’s ok, just go on and make a fool out of yourself.

56 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:09:14am

re: #20 tom from pv

2 tasks for you

1) define “right wing’
2) incorporate the word EXTREMIST in a politically contextual sentence

Your work will be graded on grammar, spelling and accuracy

proceed

57 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:09:31am

Charles,

You are right to warn people to not speak crazily on your blog as many folks express things online they should not.

Some folks have no idea how crazy they sound to others.

58 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:09:39am

re: #48 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Those guys were hard core - He plays Playstation without a wrist guard.

or a helmet for that matter……
/

59 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:09:56am

re: #54 tom from pv

This could be the same sort of discussion. Are bombers and assassins always extremists of the “right wing”? Are militias (groups with guns, imo) always “right wing”?

Maybe not, but the ones in the articles above ARE.

Deny, deny, deny.

60 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:10:01am

re: #57 alegrias

Charles,

You are right to warn people to not speak crazily on your blog as many folks express things online they should not.

Some folks have no idea how crazy they sound to others.

Most of these jerk here do realize how crazy they sound, and they are ok with it.

61 MPH  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:10:12am

In searching through some of the Google blog search results for LGF, I came across probably the funniest of all spawn of LGF sites:

lgfonevolution.blogspot.com Too funny…

“A blog created with the purpose of commenting some of the “evidences” for evolution given by Darwinist Rage Boy Charles Johnson, also to refute the anti-creationist and anti-ID “arguments” therein.”

The great thing about the internet is the crazies usually marginalize themselves…

62 Mithrax  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:10:12am

re: #57 alegrias

Charles,

Some folks have no idea how crazy they sound to others.

And some of us know how crazy we are.


woobwoobwoobwoobwoob

63 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:11:07am

re: #54 tom from pv

Our soldiers use guns, thus must be on the right wing

They also eat green beans. Guess that means they must be vegetarians

64 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:11:07am

re: #46 Wyatt Earp

Great, Now I have to go beat someone to death.

///

The Phillies bullpen would be start.

65 grahamski  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:11:16am

I guess they are not worried about Bernardine Dohrn and William Ayers anymore…

66 Opinionated  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:11:19am

re: #38 Jim D

Great! More deflection. They’re crazy, not right wing. And anyway the left is worse. Let’s all keep on pretending there are no problems with the right.

Oh, there is a problem on the Right. Absolutely.

For example, there is a problem that our candidates have to jump through hoops to demonstrate fealty to groups who are out of the mainstream and accept no compromise.

But just because some lunatic targets the President, we don’t have to acquiesce to the Left’s and media’s obsession that such lunacy is part and parcel of holding more Conservative views.

67 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:11:40am

re: #53 madeindetroit

Really? How so?

This is what you wrote:

On page 6 it tells me to watch out for anyone who claims to be a libertarian, on page 5 it suggests those who are anti-abortion could become violent.

And that’s a distortion.

68 WhiteRasta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:11:46am

Roses are red, violets are blue,
I’m not crazy and neither am I.

69 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:12:06am

I remember the good old days when only folks like the hard core left, and communist revolutionaries, were known to to be bombers.

You know, people who thought like Bill Ayers.

But he put that all behind long before he met Obama.

70 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:13:31am

re: #32 LGoPs

My unscientific rule of thumb is that 10% of any group is nuts. I don’t care if you’re talking about priests or doctors, poiticians, religious believers or lizards for that matter.
The key is to disassociate those nuts from staining and branding the entire group.

Ten percent? I’m pretty sure it’s closer to fifteen…
But yeah, some portion of any group is going to be off its rocker.

71 brookly red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:13:38am

If people with a thing for fire are pyromaniacs, is there a clinical term for those who have a thing for explosives?

just curious…

72 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:13:44am

re: #46 Wyatt Earp

Great, Now I have to go beat someone to death.

///


Just give em a *WHACK*

73 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:14:30am

re: #35 madeindetroit

MadeinDetroit
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(Logged in)
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74 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:14:39am

re: #73 haakondahl

MadeinDetroit
Karma: 4
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Yep.

75 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:15:30am

re: #71 brookly red

If people with a thing for fire are pyromaniacs, is there a clinical term for those who have a thing for explosives?

just curious…

Splodyedopes

76 ladycatnip  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:15:57am

47 Immolate

I have no idea what his beliefs are, just that he’s become a target of those critical of conservatives lately.

I decided to hold my nose and watch a little of Glen Beck, as I’d only heard others speak of him, or comments on LGF. He is waaay too emotional and comes across as trying too hard to be something he’s not - that being intelligent. In a word, I’d describe him as obtuse.

I don’t know whether he’s trying to be Rush, or a combination of other radio talk show hosts that boast large audiences. He just doesn’t seem sincere, but forced. Beck is handing his critics fodder, cause he’s full of it.

77 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:16:18am

re: #71 brookly red

If people with a thing for fire are pyromaniacs, is there a clinical term for those who have a thing for explosives?

just curious…


Or in that case

Splodydopiacs

78 Opinionated  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:16:38am

Was John Hinckley a Left Wing Extremist?

A better question- are there any Left Wing Extremists?

Search the term, see how often, if ever, the MSM and press use it to describe anyone no matter what outrageous act they commit.

79 madeindetroit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:17:26am

re: #67 Charles

And that’s a distortion.

On page five of the article I quoted it says: “Anti abortionists have been known to take up arms in support of their beliefs. Eric Rudolph, who was responsible for the Olympic Park Bombing and abortion clinics was an anti-abortionist.” I said that the document suggests that some anti-abortionists become violent. Furthermore, I did not disagree with that fact. I am really interested in how that could be a distortion.

Once again, my problem is not with the original document, but in the potential problems that could arise in policies that are created to deal with those potential threats the original document warns of.

80 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:17:31am

Unfairness is just so wrong.

81 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:17:33am

re: #71 brookly red

If people with a thing for fire are pyromaniacs, is there a clinical term for those who have a thing for explosives?

just curious…

Boomanauts?

82 tom from pv  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:17:43am

re: #45 Fat Jolly Penguin

But Penguin, nowhere in your two quotes is the term “right winger”?

I presume you think that if someone wants to kill a Democrat, they must be “right wing”. There is no need to actually PROVE the point, alls you got to do is accept it, like the gospel.

And anyone who thinks that maybe the would-be assassin is just a mean, vicious, SOB is a “denier”.

OK, that means Al Capone was another “right winger” - he routinely threatened politicians in Chicago in the 30s, who were generally Democrats. Sirhan Sirhan, “right winger”. The muslim who shot the pope, “right winger”. The list is long when you have a built-in assumption that can’t be challenged!

83 Bookworm  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:18:09am

I don’t think, Charles, that anyone is claiming there are no right wing extremists. We know they exist. What offends people is that the DHS report, rather than zeroing in on actual groups, simply tars federalism with a broad brush, as well as characterizing vets — all vets — as high risk. The same report on left wing extremism was very specific in terms of defining precisely which groups required watching. Right now, practically all of us who didn’t pull the lever for Obama are being labeled as extremists. That’s Ailinsky-ism in action and is unnerving, to say the least.

84 Rancher  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:19:34am

I and some of the guys at the prison are talking about starting a militia, although we probably won’t call it that. Nevertheless I am not worried about big brother. First it will be open to all races and religions, none of the people I associate with are racist even though I was a Minuteman and was branded as such. The majority will be Hispanic because that’s what the majority of the population is. Second most of us are in law enforcement and plan to be quite open about what we are about. We have connections with ATF so we should be able to stay well within the law. Mostly however none of us want to see anyone dead much less assassinated even if Biden, Pelosi, Byrd, and Hillary weren’t the ones to succeed Obama. We just want to be prepared should society break down, which we believe could happen if hyperinflation like what occurred in post WWI Germany or a pandemic like Avian Flu were to happen. Mostly we just like guns.

85 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:19:37am

OT

“President Kennedy like the Green Berets” and enhanced their unconventional warfare ….

(Super Special Forces documentary on Fox Right now, repeated from last night. Oliver North interviews Army special forces, US navy SEALs, Marines, all kinds of tough guys, SOCOM)

86 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:19:41am

re: #70 davinvalkri

re: #82 tom from pv

Sigh…case in point…

87 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:19:41am

re: #81 LGoPs

Boomanauts?

Booby traps?

88 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:19:46am
89 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:19:51am

re: #76 ladycatnip

I heard Beck on the radio last week launch into a rant about how Helen Keller was a communist. He also has a segment on his show called ‘putting science in its place’. The man is whacked out.

90 ladycatnip  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:19:58am

#76 ladycatnip…

Croc57, I take it you are a Beck fan.

91 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:19:59am

re: #78 Opinionated

Was John Hinckley a Left Wing Extremist?

A better question- are there any Left Wing Extremists?

Search the term, see how often, if ever, the MSM and press use it to describe anyone no matter what outrageous act they commit.


Do you want the Fairness Doctrine to ensure equal reporting? Why do you care what language is being used? Because it hurts your delicate feelings? You guys have turned into whining, sniveling wimps.

92 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:20:24am

re: #79 madeindetroit

On page five of the article I quoted it says: “Anti abortionists have been known to take up arms in support of their beliefs. Eric Rudolph, who was responsible for the Olympic Park Bombing and abortion clinics was an anti-abortionist.” I said that the document suggests that some anti-abortionists become violent.


No, you did not write that. Here are your words:

On page 6 it tells me to watch out for anyone who claims to be a libertarian, on page 5 it suggests those who are anti-abortion could become violent.

Both of those statements in bold are distortions of what the report says.

93 WhiteRasta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:20:31am

re: #70 davinvalkri

You haven’t lived until you have actually worked with someone who is bat-shit, barking crazy.

94 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:20:33am

re: #32 LGoPs

My unscientific rule of thumb is that 10% of any group is nuts. I don’t care if you’re talking about priests or doctors, poiticians, religious believers or lizards for that matter.
The key is to disassociate those nuts from staining and branding the entire group.

I think the 10% guess is pretty close, but often, that 10% make the majority of the noise, the moderates often just remain silent until it is too late. I think Charles is just sort of a early warning system, I wish we had more like him on the left.

95 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:21:00am

re: #64 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

The Phillies bullpen would be start.

I wanna bat against the Yankees!

96 HoosierHoops  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:21:08am

re: #83 Bookworm

I don’t think, Charles, that anyone is claiming there are no right wing extremists. We know they exist. What offends people is that the DHS report, rather than zeroing in on actual groups, simply tars federalism with a broad brush, as well as characterizing vets — all vets — as high risk. The same report on left wing extremism was very specific in terms of defining precisely which groups required watching. Right now, practically all of us who didn’t pull the lever for Obama are being labeled as extremists. That’s Ailinsky-ism in action and is unnerving, to say the least.


It does no such thing…That is a bullshit assertion…

97 Immolate  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:21:12am

re: #30 Charles

So you didn’t read it.

Nope. My objection is to the title of the publication and the impression that it makes, as that is the impact that it will have on most people. I would read more deeply into it if I were afraid that, under Obama, the FBI and other federal agencies were likely to take too little interest in rightwing hate groups. I have no such fear. If anything, they will overreact and try to use them as a stain on the non-extremists, as they have done here.

The truth can be harnessed for evil as easily as for good, you just have to be a bit more selective.

98 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:21:38am

re: #95 opnion

I wanna bat against the Yankees!

Huga Chavez has been doing it for a couple of years now !

99 MJ  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:21:48am

re: #54 tom from pv


BTW, I personally don’t think bombers and assassins have a “wing”. Like Al Capone, they’re just mean, vicious, mentally ill people who like to kill others who are weaker than themselves. I wish we could just drop the constant partisan warfare and improve the US instead.


Nonsense on stilts. Some people who murder are mentally ill. Most are not. Most mentally ill people are not murders. Most murderers are not mentally ill.

100 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:21:55am

re: #74 Charles

I just stumbled on this page on “wikio” which purports to list the top 100 political blogs ranked according to traffic — and I notice LGF is not on it.

BUT…several other blogs (both good blogs and bad blogs) that I absolutely know have far less traffic than LGF are listed. LGF has a visitor stats counter at the upper left, and the sheer number of commenters here prove beyond any doubt the very large traffic LGF gets, yet blogs (I won’t name names — click the link yourself to see, and look at the 51-100 rankings) with far less traffic make the list.

What gives? Is LGF being intentionally blackballed, or is wikio just somehow clueless?

101 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:22:12am

re: #83 Bookworm

I don’t think, Charles, that anyone is claiming there are no right wing extremists. We know they exist. What offends people is that the DHS report, rather than zeroing in on actual groups, simply tars federalism with a broad brush, as well as characterizing vets — all vets — as high risk.

It absolutely DOES NOT characterize all veterans as being high risk. That is false. It very clearly says “a small percentage” of veterans might be recruited by extremist groups.

A small percentage. Have you read the actual document? Because I don’t see how you could honestly say something like that if you had.

102 Opinionated  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:22:35am

re: #54 tom from pv

If so, the DHO has a point. Our soldiers use guns, thus must be on the right wing.

It may be more insidious.

They joined an all volunteer army- they must be Right Wing. Normal people become community organizers instead. /s

103 jvic  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:22:37am

re: #32 LGoPs

My unscientific rule of thumb is that 10% of any group is nuts. I don’t care if you’re talking about priests or doctors, poiticians, religious believers or lizards for that matter.

And 10% or so of the time the nuts succeed in taking over.

104 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:22:59am

re: #97 Immolate

Nope. My objection is to the title of the publication and the impression that it makes, as that is the impact that it will have on most people. I would read more deeply into it if I were afraid that, under Obama, the FBI and other federal agencies were likely to take too little interest in rightwing hate groups. I have no such fear. If anything, they will overreact and try to use them as a stain on the non-extremists, as they have done here.

The truth can be harnessed for evil as easily as for good, you just have to be a bit more selective.

Great. So you haven’t read the document, but still feel qualified to yell about it.

Thanks for clarifying that.

105 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:23:09am

re: #71 brookly red

If people with a thing for fire are pyromaniacs, is there a clinical term for those who have a thing for explosives?

just curious…

They’re called “Mythbusters”

106 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:24:30am

re: #104 Charles

Great. So you haven’t read the document, but still feel qualified to yell about it.

Thanks for clarifying that.

* * *
Charles, a poster with a name like “immolate”—whoa! Sorry but that name alone is creepy.

107 RadicalRon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:24:53am

My gut - or maybe it’s commonsense - tells me that the threat assessments are not a first-time occurrence. Consider that they are at least an annual assessment, but more likely semi-annual or quarterly.

108 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:26:12am

This article mentions “militia,” “survivalists,” mentally unstable creatures who have amassed huge amounts of firearms and explosives, who have made threats to murder law enforcement officers.

Yeah, that describes every typical, garden-variety Republican and “tea party” enthusiast.

/

109 madeindetroit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:26:21am

re: #92 Charles

Both of those statements in bold are distortions of what the report says.


Are you saying then, that the quoted example of Eric Rudolph, a violent anti-abortionist, is not in the document? Or are you saying that using Eric Rudolph as the only stated example of an anti-abortionist does not suggest that some anti-abortionists could become violent?

110 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:26:25am

re: #107 RadicalRon

My gut - or maybe it’s commonsense - tells me that the threat assessments are not a first-time occurrence. Consider that they are at least an annual assessment, but more likely semi-annual or quarterly.

They are ongoing. Have been for decades. The question I have is why all of a sudden are they being released?

111 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:26:29am

re: #24 Opinionated

Mentally unbalanced takes many forms.

If they want to target Obama they are characterized as Right Wing Extremists.

If they attack an immigrant absorption center, we wonder what pissed them off.

If a woman rapes and murders a child, we have no clue.

Most of these crazies are not right wing or left wing no mater how they channel their insanity or who their targets are, they’re just plain nuts.

But only in one case is a political philosophy blamed.

We have plenty of crazies on our side, as does the Left, but their infirmity is that they are crazy first, not political first.

I think that you have a good point buried in this mishmash. I agree (with what I *think* you’re saying), that similarly to how Congresscritters in trouble are frequently identified by party if Republican, and by state if Democrat, the media calls crazy right-wingers “crazy right-wingers” but crazy left-wingers are siimply crazy.

The problem is this:

If we allow ourselves to see jackbooted thugs at DHS when in fact they are helping to separate the right-wing crazies from the right wing, then we really are nuts.

We as conservatives cannot give traction to the lunatics. We used to be better at pushing the loonies overboard, both because we had something to lose, and a majority of rational people pragmatic enough to hold a party together.

Now many on the right feel that we have nothing to lose because we lost a couple of (monumental, albeit) elections, and are either consorting with or becoming lunatics.

We will destroy the party and the movement if we follow this madness.

A few pointers for all of us—back up what you say, admit the possibility of error, exercise rumor control, and in general try to be on the lookout for internet crazies, not part of the problem.

$.02

112 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:26:38am

re: #107 RadicalRon

My gut - or maybe it’s commonsense - tells me that the threat assessments are not a first-time occurrence. Consider that they are at least an annual assessment, but more likely semi-annual or quarterly.

* * * *
Why call yourself “Radical”, Ron? C’mon. Please get a new name. Have some respect for Charles’ blog as a place for non-idiots.

113 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:27:31am

.

114 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:27:43am

re: #109 madeindetroit

Are you saying then, that the quoted example of Eric Rudolph, a violent anti-abortionist, is not in the document? Or are you saying that using Eric Rudolph as the only stated example of an anti-abortionist does not suggest that some anti-abortionists could become violent?

You did not write “some” anti-abortionists could become violent. You wrote:

On page 6 it tells me to watch out for anyone who claims to be a libertarian, on page 5 it suggests those who are anti-abortion could become violent.

I notice you’re not even trying to defend your first claim now.

115 tom from pv  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:27:47am

re: #56 sattv4u2

In my view, right wing is short-hand for conservative. left wing is short-hand for liberal.

Both conservatives and liberals vehemently oppose assassinations and bombings.

However, the liberal media has a penchant for ascribing all acts of violence using guns, bombs, or other military-style weapons to the “extremists” in the “right wing”.

Let me try one last time and then its off to work. Can we all agree Al Capone used guns and bombs? Can we all agree he also threatened Democrat politicians with death? Can we all agree Al Capone was evil and vicious? But isn’t it stupid and non-useful to try to label Al Capone as a “right winger”?

If you’re still with me, what is the point of all this partisan name-calling with these vicious SOBs? Why bother to “induce” they are right wing at all? Isn’t this like arguing whether Nazis were liberal or conservative - what’s the damn point, except to score some kind of meaningless partisan points?

116 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:28:01am

re: #112 alegrias

* * * *
Why call yourself “Radical”, Ron? C’mon. Please get a new name. Have some respect for Charles’ blog as a place for non-idiots.

My 14 year old has informed me that “radical” in todays culture has a far differenr meaning than it did in mine!

117 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:28:26am

re: #71 brookly red

If people with a thing for fire are pyromaniacs, is there a clinical term for those who have a thing for explosives?

just curious…

Probably, but it’s a term used mostly in the ER, I’ll bet.

118 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:28:33am

re: #111 haakondahl

I think that you have a good point buried in this mishmash. I agree (with what I *think* you’re saying), that similarly to how Congresscritters in trouble are frequently identified by party if Republican, and by state if Democrat, the media calls crazy right-wingers “crazy right-wingers” but crazy left-wingers are siimply crazy.

The problem is this:

If we allow ourselves to see jackbooted thugs at DHS when in fact they are helping to separate the right-wing crazies from the right wing, then we really are nuts.

We as conservatives cannot give traction to the lunatics. We used to be better at pushing the loonies overboard, both because we had something to lose, and a majority of rational people pragmatic enough to hold a party together.

Now many on the right feel that we have nothing to lose because we lost a couple of (monumental, albeit) elections, and are either consorting with or becoming lunatics.

We will destroy the party and the movement if we follow this madness.

A few pointers for all of us—back up what you say, admit the possibility of error, exercise rumor control, and in general try to be on the lookout for internet crazies, not part of the problem.
$.02

That is worth more like $1,000,000.

119 Opinionated  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:28:39am

re: #91 Killgore Trout

Do you want the Fairness Doctrine to ensure equal reporting? Why do you care what language is being used? Because it hurts your delicate feelings? You guys have turned into whining, sniveling wimps.

It’s a tool of the Democrats and the press to characterize the Right as crazy.

It was done to Palin.

They attempted to so characterize anyone who attended the tea parties.

They are attempting to educate the public to a reflexive association between leaning Right politically and being crazy.

I reject that association.

120 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:29:37am

re: #34 thebigolddog

What’s up with these crazy 60 year olds?

yes, that surprised me also.
one of these guys is 62. for some reason i expected them to be much younger.
i guess extremism has no age barriers.
getting older doesn’t mean getting smarter.

121 Perplexed  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:29:44am

Look at the ages of these guys. Might be early onset dementia. Time to take grandpa in for a checkup.

122 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:29:45am

re: #119 Opinionated

It’s a tool of the Democrats and the press to characterize the Right as crazy.

It was done to Palin.

They attempted to so characterize anyone who attended the tea parties.

They are attempting to educate the public to a reflexive association between leaning Right politically and being crazy.

I reject that association.

Maybe you should spend more effort on rejecting the crazies.

123 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:29:50am

re: #98 sattv4u2

Huga Chavez has been doing it for a couple of years now !

Hugo’s gift book to Obama is written in Spanish & BHO does not hable espanol. Question, since during the Campaign he shared his embarrassment at the lack of the foreign language skills of Americans, how come he does not speak Spanish?
Millions of non-Latino Americans speak Spanish.

124 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:30:06am

re: #97 Immolate

You’re an idiot.

125 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:30:08am

re: #115 tom from pv

Problem with your “Al Capone” theorum is that he was not a POLITICAL movement nor activist. He was an equal opportunity PETTY THEIF/ THUG

So please don;t equate him with political extermists

It’s disengenouos at best,,,, a flat out lie at worse

126 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:30:33am

People who make grenades and threaten elected political leaders are crazy.

127 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:30:57am

re: #119 Opinionated

It’s a tool of the Democrats and the press to characterize the Right as crazy.

It was done to Palin.

They attempted to so characterize anyone who attended the tea parties.

They are attempting to educate the public to a reflexive association between leaning Right politically and being crazy.

I reject that association.

So do I, and so does the mouse in my pocket.
/

128 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:31:27am

re: #19 Charles

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? Does the word “extremist” just slip right past your eyes as if it doesn’t exist?

Do you have a problem with understanding how propaganda works ? Propaganda is untrue. Believe come to believe it by it’s volume of reference.

So, let’s pretend they are only talking about extremists today as it will be a short hop to right wing tomorrow. This is the point where the battle being, not after everyone believes right wing = extremist.

If that weren’t true, we wouldn’t be dealing with racism against black people today.

You mention Fox news and blags. How about CNN.

8 references to Right Wing. One picture of Nazi flag carrying skin heads.
Here’s the link. Count em up for yourself.
cnn.com

129 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:32:12am

Bookworm
Karma: 26
Registered since: Apr 3, 2007 at 6:45 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 16
No. of links posted: 1

130 Pvt Bin Jammin  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:32:12am

re: #20 tom from pv

You missed the point, imho. People who bomb and assassinate are, by definition, “right-wingers”. If one decides to bomb and assassinate, they have become part of the “right wing”.

Sure, there may be tons of people who don’t bomb and assassinate and are also part of the vast “right wing” in this country. But that’s only because they’re not “right wing” enough!

See how it works?

So I guess that means the Weather Underground are right wingers now. Who knew?

131 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:32:31am

Since September 11, 2001, there’s no justification in provocation.

Why anyone would voluntarily label themselves “Right Wing Extremist” even in jest, as one idiot did at the Washington DC Tea Party last week, is

STUPID
Distinctly Unhelpful
Not funny
Attention whorish
Depraved.

Our country’s police & military have enough to do without idiotic attention whores adding to our problems and taxing our resources.

132 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:33:08am
A DHS official said the department was not trying to squelch free speech by issuing the report. “There is no link between extremists being talked about in that report and conservative political thinkers, activists and voters,” the official said.
advertisement

But conservative radio talk show host Roger Hedgecock was not persuaded. “If the Bush administration had done this to left-wing extremists, it would be all over the press as an obvious trampling of the First Amendment rights of folks and dissent,” he told CNN.cnn.com

Unfair!

133 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:33:08am

This is the same thing that happened when the “Bush-is-wiretapping-Democrats!” nonsense was in vogue. It has been spun and renamed, but this is deliberate.

134 slicerdicer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:33:10am

re: #54 tom from pv

I think this administration terms anyone who has a conservative political opinion and beliefs a “right wing extremist”.

135 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:33:13am

re: #50 Charles

I invite people to go read the report you linked, because they’ll discover that you are completely distorting what it says.

————————————————————-

Charles,

Just a note. With regards to post #35. That file being hosted at scribd dot com was uploaded buy a guyrazer.

He’s also uploaded:

1. Rothschild Tryants - 13 Documents
2. Martial Law - 17 Documents
3. Nuclear NPT and The Mid East - 8 Documents

His Rothschild tyrants uploads are the usual conspiracy material. Many of it outright homemade propaganda.

The Nuclear NPT uploads includes one document titled: Zionist Israel Nuclear Blackmail of America - Where is the real Mid-East Threat? Has Rothschild acquired control of nuclear weapons through Israel?

136 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:33:28am

re: #84 Rancher

I and some of the guys at the prison are talking about starting a militia, although we probably won’t call it that. Nevertheless I am not worried about big brother. First it will be open to all races and religions, none of the people I associate with are racist even though I was a Minuteman and was branded as such. The majority will be Hispanic because that’s what the majority of the population is. Second most of us are in law enforcement and plan to be quite open about what we are about. We have connections with ATF so we should be able to stay well within the law. Mostly however none of us want to see anyone dead much less assassinated even if Biden, Pelosi, Byrd, and Hillary weren’t the ones to succeed Obama. We just want to be prepared should society break down, which we believe could happen if hyperinflation like what occurred in post WWI Germany or a pandemic like Avian Flu were to happen. Mostly we just like guns.

Hey Rancher. Glad to see you are not wasting your time.////

137 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:34:09am

re: #128 cincinnati_kid37

8 references to Right Wing. One picture of Nazi flag carrying skin heads.
Here’s the link


That’s because neo-nazi groups and White Supremacists are a problem and potentially dangerous. Despite what Jonah Goldberg tells you, fascism is not a leftist liberal ideology. You are a victim of historical revisionism.

138 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:34:11am

I just got an email from Fed Ex. They are trying to deliver a cashiers check to me for $800,000. All ihave to do is give them my credit card number, so that they can charge $60 for security. Sweet!

139 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:34:13am

re: #129 haakondahl

Bookworm
Karma: 26
Registered since: Apr 3, 2007 at 6:45 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 16
No. of links posted: 1

Bookworm is OK. She’s just been taken in by the propaganda about the report.

140 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:34:33am

re: #121 Perplexed

Look at the ages of these guys. Might be early onset dementia. Time to take grandpa in for a checkup.

* * * *
And if it’s your father, upset about his savings going down the drain, get a second job to help out your family, or reassure your worried elders you’ll take care of them. Then DO IT.

These times are extremely upsetting for many people, but we must stay optimistic as we do for our childrens’ sake.

141 Opinionated  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:34:34am

re: #111 haakondahl

If we allow ourselves to see jackbooted thugs at DHS when in fact they are helping to separate the right-wing crazies from the right wing, then we really are nuts.

I have no particular trouble with the aim of the DHS report.

There are extremists and they are dangerous. And being Jewish, they may even be more dangerous to me.

I argue that when the news reaches the public, the line of demarcation between the “right wing crazies” and the “right wing” fades and the image that remains is that if you hold Right of center views, if you don’t see what a great man Obama is, something is wrong with you too.

142 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:34:58am

re: #84 Rancher

I and some of the guys at the prison are talking about starting a militia…

Mostly we just like guns.

They let guys in prison start gun clubs?
/

143 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:35:01am

I’d venture to guess that not every threat against Obama comes from the “right”.

/IIRC, those Bonkey primaries got pretty heated

144 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:35:03am

re: #133 swamprat

This is the same thing that happened when the “Bush-is-wiretapping-Democrats!” nonsense was in vogue. It has been spun and renamed, but this is deliberate.

The reight has become the new LLL. They are just as crazy and just as stupid.

145 KingKenrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:35:04am

I don’t think anybody sane will argue that our govt shouldn’t by looking at right-wing extremists. So this post is a bit of a straw man.

My problem with the DHS report is that it assigns behavior to right-wing radicals that is quite ordinary and not radical. The report was prepared for law enforcement agencies which could demonize ordinary activity and make them more likely to violate civil rights. Which (I assume) is why the civil liberties lawyers in the DHS objected to certain language in the report.

146 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:35:16am

re: #88 buzzsawmonkey

Right wing extremists? They’re just Aryan their grievances.

And their gievances are Naziating.

147 slicerdicer  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:35:30am

re: #119 Opinionated

Interesting article on the same subject by Andrew C. McCathy on National Review on line called

“DHS Wants to Know What You’re Thinking, The Obama administration defines extremism down”

148 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:35:43am

“bean can grenade”

(it’s amazing what people will come up with.)

149 MJ  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:36:03am

re: #128 cincinnati_kid37

Do you have a problem with understanding how propaganda works ? Propaganda is untrue. Believe come to believe it by it’s volume of reference.

So, let’s pretend they are only talking about extremists today as it will be a short hop to right wing tomorrow. This is the point where the battle being, not after everyone believes right wing = extremist.

If that weren’t true, we wouldn’t be dealing with racism against black people today.

You mention Fox news and blags. How about CNN.

8 references to Right Wing. One picture of Nazi flag carrying skin heads.
Here’s the link. Count em up for yourself.
[Link: www.cnn.com…]

Actually, that is a simpleton’s view of how propaganda works.
Suggest you actually read a good book on the subject.
May I suggest

Jacques Ellul. Propaganda: The Formation of Men’s Attitudes. New York: Vintage Books, 1973

swaraj.org

150 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:36:12am

re: #144 Killgore Trout

The SOME ON THE reight has become the new LLL. They are just as crazy and just as stupid.


FTFY,,

151 Bloodnok  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:36:17am

This one goes out to all of you who can’t be bothered to read the DHS memo for what it is and are looking for reasons to feel persecuted.

The Kinks - Acute Schizophrenia Paranoia Blues

Well the milkman’s a spy, and the grocer keeps on following me,
And the woman next door’s an undercover for the K.G.B.,
And the man from the Social Security
Keeps on invading my privacy,
Oh there ain’t no cure for acute schizophrenia disease.

152 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:36:35am

re: #135 Gus 802

————————————————————-

Charles,

Just a note. With regards to post #35. That file being hosted at scribd dot com was uploaded buy a guyrazer.

He’s also uploaded:

1. Rothschild Tryants - 13 Documents
2. Martial Law - 17 Documents
3. Nuclear NPT and The Mid East - 8 Documents

His Rothschild tyrants uploads are the usual conspiracy material. Many of it outright homemade propaganda.

The Nuclear NPT uploads includes one document titled: Zionist Israel Nuclear Blackmail of America - Where is the real Mid-East Threat? Has Rothschild acquired control of nuclear weapons through Israel?

Further information.

Guy Razer is a 911 Truther.

153 Rancher  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:36:48am

re: #114 Charles

I notice you’re not even trying to defend your first claim now.

Which points out how weak such broad based arguments are. I forget who it was earlier this week that equated Murfa’s Marine bashing with the DHS bashing we’re seeing today but he or she was spot on. Some right wing-nuts are a threat, thats all this says, DHS is just doing its job.

154 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:36:50am

re: #149 MJ

If it was true that would really simplify the advertising business.

155 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:37:25am

re: #145 KingKenrod

I don’t think anybody sane will argue that our govt shouldn’t by looking at right-wing extremists. So this post is a bit of a straw man.

No, it is obviously not a “straw man,” when you can see numerous people right here in this thread trying to deny there’s anything “right wing” about the people in the stories I linked.

My problem with the DHS report is that it assigns behavior to right-wing radicals that is quite ordinary and not radical.

It does not.

The report was prepared for law enforcement agencies which could demonize ordinary activity and make them more likely to violate civil rights. Which (I assume) is why the civil liberties lawyers in the DHS objected to certain language in the report.

Oh, for Pete’s sake. What a crock.

156 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:37:30am

re: #123 opnion

Hugo’s gift book to Obama is written in Spanish & BHO does not hable espanol. Question, since during the Campaign he shared his embarrassment at the lack of the foreign language skills of Americans, how come he does not speak Spanish?
Millions of non-Latino Americans speak Spanish.

I was hoping I could tell you he speaks a few, but no, he’s embarrassed too. :)

No second language .

157 Immolate  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:37:32am

re: #104 Charles

Great. So you haven’t read the document, but still feel qualified to yell about it.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Who’s yelling Charles? I’m having a little fun on a Sunday afternoon. What about you?

158 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:37:36am

re: #20 tom from pv

You missed the point, imho. People who bomb and assassinate are, by definition, “right-wingers”. If one decides to bomb and assassinate, they have become part of the “right wing”.

Sure, there may be tons of people who don’t bomb and assassinate and are also part of the vast “right wing” in this country. But that’s only because they’re not “right wing” enough!

See how it works?

That’s bullshit.

159 Rancher  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:37:49am

re: #142 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

They let guys in prison start gun clubs?
/


Correctional Officers and staff, yes.

160 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:37:50am

re: #146 solomonpanting

And their gievances are Naziating.

A very Horthy pun indeed.

161 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:37:58am

To Charles, you said:

re: #128 cincinnati_kid37

Do you have a problem with understanding how propaganda works ?

cincinnati_kid37
Karma: 21
Registered since: Aug 28, 2007 at 6:10 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 288
No. of links posted: 0

You’re not quite new, but we’ve been talking about this for years around here, and you haven’t been a part of that discussion.

You are feeding the problem. If I accept your slippery-slope scenario, then try this one on for size:
It’s just a short hop from your right-wing craziness to my right-wing sanity, so off with your head. Nothing personal. Can’t afford the risk to the sane people.

162 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:38:06am

re: #78 Opinionated

Was John Hinckley a Left Wing Extremist?

A better question- are there any Left Wing Extremists?

Search the term, see how often, if ever, the MSM and press use it to describe anyone no matter what outrageous act they commit.

Yep. How often did one read “left-wing communist supporter” Lee Harvey Oswald?

163 DistantThunder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:38:07am

I watched Eminems’s new video this morning that skewers and mocks Sarah Palin. It shows a Palin double dressed in a bustier in suggestive poses, and in bed with eskimos and a polar bear.

Meanwhile, over on the left, eco-terrorists pursue their anti-nuclear agenda.

Authorities investigate Eco-Terror Threat in Plainsfield

PLAINFIELD - Officials are investigating an alleged eco-terrorism threat involving the developers of a proposed wood-burning power plant in Plainfield.

Investigators say the threat was sent to an executive of Plainfield Renewable Energy, claiming to be from Earth First, a radical environmental group.

Police say the letter claims members of the group have targeted the private homes of company executives for contamination.

The letter also claims the group has dumped more than 1,200 pounds of pollutants at various sites off Mill Brook Road, where the company plans to build a $160 million energy plant.


State Department of Environmental Protection officials say investigators are still excavating portions of the Plainfield site.

A person at earthfirst.org, who identified himself as Jezebel Dreamboat, told the Norwich Bulletin that the group didn’t send the threat.

164 golf and ski  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:38:25am

Interesting discussion. Also interesting is the first sentence in the original report, noting the lack of “specific information” about all of their concerns. I’d think they would have better intel before voicing their opinions.

“The DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) has no specific
information that domestic rightwing* terrorists are currently planning acts of violence,
but rightwing extremists may be gaining new recruits by playing on their fears about
several emergent issues.”

165 arromdee  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:38:32am

I heard Beck on the radio last week launch into a rant about how Helen Keller was a communist.


Maybe not an actual Communist, but she was a well-known socialist and was a member of the Socialist Party.

166 Opinionated  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:38:37am

re: #122 Charles

Maybe you should spend more effort on rejecting the crazies.

I leave that to you and other blocgers and opinion makers.

If every post here were a reiteration that yes, I too reject White Supremacists, and Nazis, and the rest of the riff raff too, it would be very boring here.

What I’m saying is that I reject the implication that their “right wing” views are anything like my “right wing” views.

167 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:38:57am
168 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:39:09am

This is why the DHS memo was put out:

Protesters even threw what appeared to be a box of tea bags over the fence onto the White House grounds, causing a brief lockdown at the compound before the package was declared not dangerous.

The extreme right - the biblethumping, reactionaries are showing the hate and how dangerous they are. If one of those boxes of teabags had contained a hugebomb , the DHS secretary would have been crucified for noth having warned everyone.

{msnbc link}

169 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:39:19am

re: #134 slicerdicer

I think this administration terms anyone who has a conservative political opinion and beliefs a “right wing extremist”.

Think of the pixels you wasted sharing that brilliant analysis with us all.

170 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:39:45am

re: #165 arromdee

I heard Beck on the radio last week launch into a rant about how Helen Keller was a communist.


Maybe not an actual Communist, but she was a well-known socialist and was a member of the Socialist Party.

Did she actually know she was?
//

171 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:39:46am

re: #166 Opinionated

What I’m saying is that I reject the implication that their “right wing” views are anything like my “right wing” views.

That’s an “implication” that no one made.

172 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:39:48am

re: #163 DistantThunder

Britain has a really bad problem with eco-terrorists. There was an environmental nut last year mailing out letter bombs.

173 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:40:07am

re: #133 swamprat

This is the same thing that happened when the “Bush-is-wiretapping-Democrats!” nonsense was in vogue. It has been spun and renamed, but this is deliberate.

and, shockingly, somehow this benefits the same side. That’s an amazing coincidence.

174 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:40:20am

re: #137 Killgore Trout

That’s because neo-nazi groups and White Supremacists are a problem and potentially dangerous. Despite what Jonah Goldberg tells you, fascism is not a leftist liberal ideology. You are a victim of historical revisionism.

Really, then why are the left acting like Fascists ?
They want everyone else to shut up and their agendas are above debate. Pretty Fascist don’t ya think?

175 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:40:27am

re: #119 Opinionated

It’s a tool of the Democrats and the press to characterize the Right as crazy.

It was done to Palin.

They attempted to so characterize anyone who attended the tea parties.

They are attempting to educate the public to a reflexive association between leaning Right politically and being crazy.

I reject that association.

re: #122 Charles

Maybe you should spend more effort on rejecting the crazies.

I still don’t see how these two positions are mutually exclusive.

a. Yes, there are crazies on the right. The “militia” movement of the pre-9/11 era never entirely went away; and there are Aryan Nation types and nutballs of various stripes who love their guns and occasionally have violent fantasies.

b. However: Every minute of every day the left does indeed try to demonize everyone who doesn’t toe the leftist line. One doesn’t nee to find individual “examples” of this because every post on every moonbat blog every day is an attempt to smear any non-liberals, and most of the MSM does it on an hourly basis as well. A constant drumbeat of “If you voted against Obama you’re a racist; if you don’t like socialism you’re a conspiracy theorist; if you oppose abortion you’re a raving Christian; if you are an NRA member you’re a violent madman,” etc. etc. etc.

Both “a” and “b” are true. The reason this argument won’t end is that each side’s affirmation of veracity does not undermine or contradict the veracity of the other position.

As for the Homeland Security report: Yes, there is a legitimate reason to keep an eye out for right-wing crazies. And yes, it also seems that partisan hacks re-wrote parts of the document to subtly smear all conservatives by association. Again, both statements can be true.

176 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:40:31am

Slipperyslopism unleashed.

177 LGoPs  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:40:41am

re: #91 Killgore Trout

Do you want the Fairness Doctrine to ensure equal reporting? Why do you care what language is being used? Because it hurts your delicate feelings? You guys have turned into whining, sniveling wimps.

Because language makes a difference. The cumulative, repetitive impact of how things are described does have an impact on the perceptions and the subsequent decisions the people make - not necessarily us lizards, but the population in general. Take Billy Ayers for example. His name, and actions, were sufficiently sanitized to anesthetize voters to his history. Were he a ‘right-winger’, associated with McCain, rest assured that the media would have instructed America on his background - to McCain’s detriment.
Words and labels and most importantly their repetition mean something.
And get off the name calling. We’re not in some grammar school playground.

178 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:40:42am

re: #167 MandyManners

These people are neither conservative nor liberal. They are reactionaries.

and criminals.

179 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:40:54am

re: #164 golf and ski

Interesting discussion. Also interesting is the first sentence in the original report, noting the lack of “specific information” about all of their concerns. I’d think they would have better intel before voicing their opinions.

It was a “threat assessment.” Not a warning of a specific imminent threat.

180 WhiteRasta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:41:03am

re: #172 Killgore Trout

Yes and the animal rights nuts, too. A few years ago they put poison in Mars bars.

181 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:41:13am
182 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:41:43am

re: #175 zombie

Thank you for the sanity.

183 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:41:45am

re: #149 MJ

Actually, that is a simpleton’s view of how propaganda works.
Suggest you actually read a good book on the subject.
May I suggest

Jacques Ellul. Propaganda: The Formation of Men’s Attitudes. New York: Vintage Books, 1973

[Link: www.swaraj.org…]

In the meantime how abut explaining why so many people are falling for the propaganda which surrounds us in the media.

184 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:41:52am

re: #156 avanti

I was hoping I could tell you he speaks a few, but no, he’s embarrassed too. :)

No second language .

Seriously? You are honest for saying that.
How is your cigarette quiting friend doing? I quit years ago, but just typing cigarette make me want to light up!

185 Opinionated  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:42:28am

re: #171 Charles

That’s an “implication” that no one made.

The media makes it, which was the point of my original post.

Why are they called “right wing” extremists?

Why not just extremists, or just crazy or a neutral term “political extremists”.

186 NukeAtomrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:42:30am

Um… these guys are just, uh… amateurs without any, um… real ability to pull off acts of terrorism.

/ / / / / / It doesn’t sound any more believable than when it was said about Muslim terrorists. Way to go DHS! Keep keeping us safe from all the nutjobs out there.

187 UberInfidel67  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:42:33am

re: #138 opnionI recently got one of those “Confirmed by Snopes” emails from my brother about FedEx. They are notifying you that they have something for you and BAM! your machine crashed. Just wanted to pass that on : )

188 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:42:38am

re: #16 taxfreekiller

Earth First Terrorist.

Al Gore lies and fraud.

how many will suffer due to global warming by man bull shit lies

[Link: www.arapahoebasin.com…]
web cams
CO2 is being used as means of destruction of the U.S.A. by Al Gore
environmental wacko terrorist.
IMO

The earth gets warm.
The eath gets cool.
Al Gore lies and people will die.

Right, because snow in the mountains tells us all we need to know about the global climate, right, honco?

189 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:42:41am

re: #167 MandyManners

These people are neither conservative nor liberal. They are reactionaries.

exactly - the conservatives that will try to get back to power will HAVE to get rid of these extemists - way too many votes were lost in 11/2008 because middle of the road people voted Dem cuz they were sick of the evangelicals, the anti-choicers, the whack jobs who want to deport 20 million people.

190 USCMSNE  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:42:47am

No where in any of their craziness, does it excuse a poorly worded report by the DHS which carelessly lumps together so many different sections of the society with little to no proof supporting their arbitrary claims. Honestly, the DHS report read like a weather forecast. There’ll be a 30% chance of terrorist activity on Wednesday morning lightening up midday by… *spins the rolodex of random militia organizations* these retards in BFE Pennsylvannia. No shit. I could have told you that myself.

I don’t think any normal person could refute the existence of the crazies. I do think that a normal person could take exception to that vague DHS report.

191 Shr_Nfr  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:43:12am

If they ban flame throwers, then only flaming idiots will have flame throwers.
/sarc

There are people with axis 2 mental dysfunctions from all parts of the spectrum. I personally have no problem with finding someplace to put them where they cannot harm anyone. Sadly they missed Bill Ayers.

192 MJ  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:43:24am

re: #154 jaunte

If it was true that would really simplify the advertising business.

You simply cannot assume all propaganda is “untrue” as “cincinnati_kid37”
wrote.

193 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:43:31am

re: #185 Opinionated

The media makes it, which was the point of my original post.

Why are they called “right wing” extremists?

Why not just extremists, or just crazy or a neutral term “political extremists”.

Because it’s an accurate description.

194 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:44:03am

re: #167 MandyManners

These people are neither conservative nor liberal. They are reactionaries.

Great term 2M.

195 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:44:05am

re: #174 cincinnati_kid37

Really, then why are the left acting like Fascists ?


Lol
/at you

196 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:44:17am

re: #190 USCMSNE

No where in any of their craziness, does it excuse a poorly worded report by the DHS which carelessly lumps together so many different sections of the society with little to no proof supporting their arbitrary claims.

The report does not do that. There are qualifiers all over every statement.

197 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:44:27am

re: #3 cincinnati_kid37

[…] Peace through Stength […]

Rotating title?

198 DistantThunder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:44:40am

re: #164 golf and ski

Interesting discussion. Also interesting is the first sentence in the original report, noting the lack of “specific information” about all of their concerns. I’d think they would have better intel before voicing their opinions.

“The DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) has no specific
information that domestic rightwing* terrorists are currently planning acts of violence,
but rightwing extremists may be gaining new recruits by playing on their fears about
several emergent issues.”

It’s how alQueda attracted new recruits: The Americans are coming to rule your country, and steal your oil, etc…..

199 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:44:40am

re: #160 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

A very Horthy pun indeed.

Insert a “w” and get the “H” out of there.

200 KipAllen  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:44:43am

I thought this was about Bill Ayers.

201 Rancher  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:44:49am

re: #185 Opinionated

The media makes it, which was the point of my original post.

Why are they called “right wing” extremists?

Why not just extremists, or just crazy or a neutral term “political extremists”.

It is interesting that the same bunch who didn’t like using the words “jihadist” and “Islamofascist” for fear of offending Muslims throw the term “rightwing” all over the place.

202 Bloodnok  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:45:10am

What the heck. Since I enjoyed the first one so much here is a second Kinks song, from the same album.

Here Come the People in Grey


The people in grey have gone and taken away my right to voice my complaint,
Her Majesty’s Government have sent me a form I must complete it today.
But it’s making me blue, don’t wanna tell all my secrets to
The people in grey.
I’m gonna pass me a brand new resolution,
I’m gonna fight me a one man revolution, someway,
Gonna start my rebellion today.
But here come the people in grey,
To take me away.
Oh, Lord, those people in grey,
I gotta get back at those people in grey,
Here come the people in grey,
To take me away.

203 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:45:16am

re: #175 zombie

I still don’t see how these two positions are mutually exclusive.

a. Yes, there are crazies on the right. The “militia” movement of the pre-9/11 era never entirely went away; and there are Aryan Nation types and nutballs of various stripes who love their guns and occasionally have violent fantasies.

b. However: Every minute of every day the left does indeed try to demonize everyone who doesn’t toe the leftist line. One doesn’t nee to find individual “examples” of this because every post on every moonbat blog every day is an attempt to smear any non-liberals, and most of the MSM does it on an hourly basis as well. A constant drumbeat of “If you voted against Obama you’re a racist; if you don’t like socialism you’re a conspiracy theorist; if you oppose abortion you’re a raving Christian; if you are an NRA member you’re a violent madman,” etc. etc. etc.

Both “a” and “b” are true. The reason this argument won’t end is that each side’s affirmation of veracity does not undermine or contradict the veracity of the other position.

As for the Homeland Security report: Yes, there is a legitimate reason to keep an eye out for right-wing crazies. And yes, it also seems that partisan hacks re-wrote parts of the document to subtly smear all conservatives by association. Again, both statements can be true.


You never disappoint me with your well reasoned posts.
Thank you

204 Mithrax  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:45:21am

re: #201 Rancher

It is interesting that the same bunch who didn’t like using the words “jihadist” and “Islamofascist” for fear of offending Muslims throw the term “rightwing” all over the place.

“Right wing” isn’t a perjorative term.

205 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:45:43am

re: #174 cincinnati_kid37

Really, then why are the left acting like Fascists ?
They want everyone else to shut up and their agendas are above debate. Pretty Fascist don’t ya think?

Karl Hagel, the father of Left & Right terminology for politics saw fascism as a product of extremism on either side. So yes, lefties can indeed be fascists.

206 katemaclaren  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:45:44am

Well, dang. I posted this in the wrong thread. So, here goes again.
I expect we’ll see a lot of these stories in the press. It would be dumb to ignore them, but it would also be churlish to comment that it would undoubtedly be used to bolster the militancy against the right. This in turn might have the opposite effect—instead of calming down that fringe of people, it might rile them up and get others to join them. Not a good idea.
Although, just noting from Zombie’s past photo essays, there was considerable hatred and threats from the left wing zealots—there wasn’t much in the press about anyone being arrested. We can speculate on what that might mean. One, perhaps the left wing fringe just likes to parade around and talk—paper tigers all. Or maybe the ones who were caught were sent to foreign prisons for torture. Or maybe even disappeared a la the South American way. Or…. maybe the press just didn’t print any articles about it.
I, for one, am just thinking about this. I don’t like fringe. Either on my rugs, my scarves, or my politics or in my country. fringe is unpredictable and a collector of dirt, parasites and crumbs. N’est pas?

207 Mithrax  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:45:55am

re: #204 Mithrax

that is, isn’t perjorative to THEM.

208 Rancher  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:46:14am

re: #204 Mithrax

“Right wing” isn’t a perjorative term.

I can’t tell.

209 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:46:19am

re: #204 Mithrax

It seems that some are trying to make it one.

210 Killian Bundy  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:46:20am

The reprobate in the first article is clearly a menace but there’s no mention of his political leanings. He’s an obvious gun fanatic that believes Clinton or Obama would take his guns away. Is that necessarily only a “right wing” fear?

/calling him “right wing” is a guess, maybe a good guess, but still a guess

211 Shay4l  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:46:30am

You know, these bomb throwing right-wingers may end up being respected professors some day.

212 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:46:56am

re: #161 haakondahl

To Charles, you said:

cincinnati_kid37
Karma: 21
Registered since: Aug 28, 2007 at 6:10 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 288
No. of links posted: 0

You’re not quite new, but we’ve been talking about this for years around here, and you haven’t been a part of that discussion.

You are feeding the problem. If I accept your slippery-slope scenario, then try this one on for size:
It’s just a short hop from your right-wing craziness to my right-wing sanity, so off with your head. Nothing personal. Can’t afford the risk to the sane people.

So, you are ‘sane right wing’ and I am ‘crazy right wing’. I’d ask you to qualify that but I don’t really care. Instead, did you read the CNN news article wiht the one pic of Nazi flag carrying idiots and notice the 8 references to right wing in there? Here it is again if you missed it - cnn.com
Does it bother you as a ‘sane’ right winger to be lumped in with these bastards?

And ask me if I care about recs and how many posts I have. What difference does it make whether I was here talking about this yesterday. It’s a post. It’s a subject. I comment on it today. May not again.

213 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:47:03am

re: #196 Charles

The report does not do that. There are qualifiers all over every statement.

exactly and it was shameful that the real media didnt come to the defense of sec. Napalitano - they just sat there and let the right wing nuts shoot that report down - I didnt see any reporter or news anchor stand up and say she was right on the money for issuing that memo

214 thebigolddog  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:47:06am

re: #120 nyc redneck


yes, that surprised me also.
one of these guys is 62. for some reason i expected them to be much younger.
i guess extremism has no age barriers.
getting older doesn’t mean getting smarter.

I hope the classified report has a whole section devoted to white AARP members buying firecrackers and golf balls.

215 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:47:08am

re: #184 opnion

Seriously? You are honest for saying that.
How is your cigarette quiting friend doing? I quit years ago, but just typing cigarette make me want to light up!

One more day without smoking, We are going to try the casino this week and I told her she’d have to kill me first if wanted to smoke.

216 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:47:18am

re: #175 zombie

Zombie helps my brain.
But I will still say some dumb stuff.
I have never been blind to these types of nuts.
Certainly they are and have been dangerous.
But I do believe that the cruddy DHS report can and will and has been read
( with considerably less care) in ways that could defame Veterans and cast suspicion on people with views on Illegal immigration and other things that even being a “liberal democrat” I hold considerable “Conservative” views on, that in the Garafolo wing (Which gets a lot of face time) of the leftard party make mild mannered me. some kind of dangerous right wing lunatic.
Yikes I need more Zombie.

217 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:47:22am

re: #126 jaunte

People who make grenades and threaten elected political leaders are crazy.

And people like Ann Coulter who publish jokes about poisoning Supreme Court Justices they don’t like are the link between the sane and the kooks. Which is why I don’t buy her crap anymore. No matter how good most of her stuff is—the baggage weighs too much.

218 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:47:56am

re: #144 Killgore Trout

I suspect you are right.

219 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:48:08am

re: #216 Jimash

But I do believe that the cruddy DHS report can and will and has been read ( with considerably less care) in ways that could defame Veterans…

You have been lied to. The report DOES NOT defame veterans.

220 Shay4l  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:49:38am

re: #211 Shay4l

Not saying I believe in their ideas, but weird things like that have happend.

221 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:49:59am

re: #195 Killgore Trout

Lol
/at you

Why did you feel the need to truncate my statement ? Would you have had a harder time trying to make your point ?

In fact, by doing so, you DID make my point.

Cackle away. What a friggin fever swamp this place is.

222 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:50:19am

re: #215 avanti

One more day without smoking, We are going to try the casino this week and I told her she’d have to kill me first if wanted to smoke.

If she falls off of the wagon & she may, help her get right back on.
Quitting smoking is a miserable experience.

223 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:50:23am

re: #221 cincinnati_kid37

Buh bye.

224 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:50:55am

re: #212 cincinnati_kid37

Instead, did you read the CNN news article wiht the one pic of Nazi flag carrying idiots and notice the 8 references to right wing in there? Here it is again if you missed it - [Link: www.cnn.com…]

And seven of those references to “right-wing” are direct quotes from the DHS report on “right-wing extremism.”

225 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:51:17am

re: #197 Cato the Elder

Rotating title?

Don’t understand the concept?

226 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:51:37am

FUTURE CLEN UP ON AISLE 221

/// Miss Chloe off

227 katemaclaren  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:51:53am

re: #205 opnion

Karl Hagel, the father of Left & Right terminology for politics saw fascism as a product of extremism on either side. So yes, lefties can indeed be fascists.

An interesting point—I used to envision a circle whereas those on the right would be backing further and further around the curve, while likewise those on the left would also—eventually, bam. Back to back (like in a duel!)—Extremist mind meld.

228 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:51:54am

re: #219 Charles

You have been lied to. The report DOES NOT defame veterans.


We are being played. The release, I mean “leak”. The “interpetations”. The “outcry”.
All done on purpose.

229 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:51:56am

re: #221 cincinnati_kid37

Why did you feel the need to truncate my statement ? Would you have had a harder time trying to make your point ?

In fact, by doing so, you DID make my point.

Cackle away. What a friggin fever swamp this place is.

Than don’t come here. You sanctimonious prick.

230 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:52:16am
231 gitarfan  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:52:19am

I read it. Quotes like this:
“Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.”

The problem is the report doesn’t define extremism per se. Where are they drawing the line? They don’t say. Based on what they’ve written, the NRA could be considered an extremist group. Pooh-pooh it all you want but this is the mind set of those running DHS and Justice. You’ll be an extremist until proven otherwise.

Where does this guy or group fit?

The Weld County sheriff’s office is looking for whoever sent it a letter threatening to put bombs around Greeley next week unless illegal immigrants are released from jail.

The sheriff’s office says the letter was handwritten in Spanish, and the threats were directed primarily toward judicial and law-enforcement officials.

Sheriff John Cooke says he wants the public to know his office is working diligently to find and arrest whoever wrote the letter. The Greeley police department and state and federal law enforcement agencies have been notified…The Weld County jail has 58 inmates who are waiting for Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials to pick them up and deport them.

Not right wing I’ll bet

232 Bloodnok  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:52:21am

re: #221 cincinnati_kid37

Yeah. We’re the ones making wild accusations.

/Sheesh.

233 cincinnati_kid37  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:52:36am

re: #223 Killgore Trout

Buh bye.

Who said I was going anywhere ? I’ll probably be back, but not today. Unless Charles removes me which will Really make my point.

234 Rancher  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:52:59am

Why are Nazi’s called “right wing”. They were socialists, they did not believe in individual freedom, a hallmark of conservative thought.

235 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:53:00am

re: #221 cincinnati_kid37

Why did you feel the need to truncate my statement ? Would you have had a harder time trying to make your point ?

In fact, by doing so, you DID make my point.

Cackle away. What a friggin fever swamp this place is.


You say that like it’s a bad thing.
swamprat

236 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:53:04am

re: #215 avanti

One more day without smoking, We are going to try the casino this week and I told her she’d have to kill me first if wanted to smoke.

Wait a minute! You said Obama has no foreign language?
I heard him say “Si, se puede” Why that fraud!

237 HoosierHoops  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:53:18am

re: #225 cincinnati_kid37

Chill the fuck out…now..take a deep breathe and step back

238 thebigolddog  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:53:20am
239 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:53:21am

re: #233 cincinnati_kid37

Who said I was going anywhere ? I’ll probably be back, but not today. Unless Charles removes me which will Really make my point.

ahhh ,,,, VICTIM mode! Well played !

240 Tatterdemalian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:53:25am

Past behavior is a good indication of future behavior, and we do have the example of the OK City bombing to go on. We can’t focus on Islamic terrorists to the point where we start ignoring domestic terrorists. The far-right are too easily goaded into launching attacks against their own country, just as the far-left are too prone to trust the enemies of America and hate their fellow Americans.

241 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:54:11am

re: #219 Charles

You have been lied to. The report DOES NOT defame veterans.

very true. all the report says is:

“The willingness of a small percentage of military personnel to join extremist groups during the 1990s because they were disgruntled, disillusioned, or suffering from the psychological effects of war is being replicated today,” the report reads.


{Link…}
With tons of veterans coming back from a war in Iraq that 80% of the American people were against certainly makes for a huge chance that the same crap of Mcveigh and those types would happen all over again.

242 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:54:14am

re: #233 cincinnati_kid37

Who said I was going anywhere ? I’ll probably be back, but not today. Unless Charles removes me which will Really make my point.

OK, consider your “point” made. Bye now.

243 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:54:31am

re: #54 tom from pv

BTW, I personally don’t think bombers and assassins have a “wing”.

You’re correct. That is a ‘personal’ feeling. However, the Weather Underground, whose tactics included bombings

was an American radical left organization founded in 1969

244 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:54:37am

Very bad idea to dare me to block your account.

245 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:55:27am

re: #204 Mithrax

“Right wing” isn’t a perjorative term.

And “perjorative” isn’t a word.

246 Jimmah  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:55:28am

re: #61 MPH

In searching through some of the Google blog search results for LGF, I came across probably the funniest of all spawn of LGF sites:

[Link: lgfonevolution.blogspot.com…] Too funny…

The great thing about the internet is the crazies usually marginalize themselves…

Heh. These people look crazy enough when you see them posting on LGF, but when you see them posting in a creationism friendly environment, in the company of idiots who egg them on to be even more stupid, that’s when the real comedy begins.

Btw, did you notice the “Proud Right-Wing Extremist” flag he’s got there?

247 katemaclaren  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:55:35am

O/t
Charles, if you lived where I lived (not on the left coast), you would be in a bike race today! Beautiful weather for it.

248 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:55:55am

re: #244 Charles

Very bad idea to dare me to block your account.

Sorry Charles ,,, but my 239 will have to be expunged also

249 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:56:00am

re: #227 katemaclaren

An interesting point—I used to envision a circle whereas those on the right would be backing further and further around the curve, while likewise those on the left would also—eventually, bam. Back to back (like in a duel!)—Extremist mind meld.

Excellent! That is the exact imagery used by Hegel.

250 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:56:01am
251 seagreenroom  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:56:08am

I would just like to know that our illustrious goobermint is also hot on the trail of left-wing extremists.

Is that too much to ask? I don’t believe anybody in the current administration is the least bit interested in digging up any dirt on their leftist cronies.

252 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:56:20am

I think the cincinnatti kid was confused.
fever swamp
A political website or mindset that is prone to wild accusations and is especially susceptible to conspiracy theories.
urbandictionary.com

253 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:56:44am

Why do all the trolls ask Charles to ban them? Is it a badge to be worn at LGF2 or other stalker sites?

Fuck off and don’t post you sanctimonious ASREHOLES

254 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:56:55am

Charles, I read it.
It says that a small percentage of veterans will be susceptible to being recruited by Right Wing extremist groups.
It then goes on to say that an Unnamed Civil Rights Organization estimates that there are a “Large number” of ALREADY Right wing extremist Nazi Skinhead types serving in order to learn “The art of war “.
And it says that ‘Rural” veterans are particularly at risk.
Though these statements might all be true and reasonable, they will be read as a blanket condemnation by the same people who say that as a democrat I must be a Racist since I didn’t vote for Pres, Obama.
Or that a belief in legal immigration and deportation of illegals is somehow “Fascist” or extreme.
Not everyone reads as well as you, and I do not trust the motivations of many of them.

255 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:57:04am

re: #212 cincinnati_kid37

And ask me if I care about recs and how many posts I have. What difference does it make whether I was here talking about this yesterday. It’s a post. It’s a subject. I comment on it today. May not again.

They make Ritalin for that.

256 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:57:16am

re: #222 opnion

If she falls off of the wagon & she may, help her get right back on.
Quitting smoking is a miserable experience.

I know, I already told her she could be a bitchy as she wants while quitting, it’ll be worth it to her and me in the long run.

257 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:57:35am

re: #244 Charles

Very bad idea to dare me to block your account.

Is it possible that he wanted his account blocked, so he could say he was ‘kicked off for disagreeing?’
Bingo.

258 Bloodnok  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:58:12am

re: #253 Erik The Red

Why do all the trolls ask Charles to ban them? Is it a badge to be worn at LGF2 or other stalker sites?

Fuck off and don’t post you sanctimonious ASREHOLES

They do it so they can misrepresent themselves at some other blog in their obligatory “I got banned and I didn’t even DO nuthin’” post.

259 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:58:13am

Was Ayers considered a left wing extremist, or simply an extremist.

I am seriousl

260 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:59:14am
261 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:59:32am

re: #175 zombie

I still don’t see how these two positions are mutually exclusive.

a. Yes, there are crazies on the right. The “militia” movement of the pre-9/11 era never entirely went away; and there are Aryan Nation types and nutballs of various stripes who love their guns and occasionally have violent fantasies.

b. However: Every minute of every day the left does indeed try to demonize everyone who doesn’t toe the leftist line. One doesn’t nee to find individual “examples” of this because every post on every moonbat blog every day is an attempt to smear any non-liberals, and most of the MSM does it on an hourly basis as well. A constant drumbeat of “If you voted against Obama you’re a racist; if you don’t like socialism you’re a conspiracy theorist; if you oppose abortion you’re a raving Christian; if you are an NRA member you’re a violent madman,” etc. etc. etc.

Both “a” and “b” are true. The reason this argument won’t end is that each side’s affirmation of veracity does not undermine or contradict the veracity of the other position.

As for the Homeland Security report: Yes, there is a legitimate reason to keep an eye out for right-wing crazies. And yes, it also seems that partisan hacks re-wrote parts of the document to subtly smear all conservatives by association. Again, both statements can be true.

The man speaks truth!

262 katemaclaren  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:59:45am

re: #245 Cato the Elder

And “perjorative” isn’t a word.


Let’s not take too many points off, okay?

263 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 11:59:46am

re: #254 Jimash

Charles, I read it.
It says that a small percentage of veterans will be susceptible to being recruited by Right Wing extremist groups.
It then goes on to say that an Unnamed Civil Rights Organization estimates that there are a “Large number” of ALREADY Right wing extremist Nazi Skinhead types serving in order to learn “The art of war “.
And it says that ‘Rural” veterans are particularly at risk.
Though these statements might all be true and reasonable, they will be read as a blanket condemnation by the same people who say that as a democrat I must be a Racist since I didn’t vote for Pres, Obama.
Or that a belief in legal immigration and deportation of illegals is somehow “Fascist” or extreme.
Not everyone reads as well as you, and I do not trust the motivations of many of them.

and the fact of the matter is that its the repsonbility of DHS to check out all veterans so we dont get blindsided ,like we did at OKC - the conservative movement in America is lousy with these anti-government types

264 katemaclaren  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:00:23pm

re: #249 opnion

Excellent! That is the exact imagery used by Hegel.

Wow. I’m a filosofer and dint no it! (being very pleased with myself, now)

265 Mikey_Dallas  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:00:38pm

Gee folks. Don’t you see the whole purpose of all of this is to cause conservatives and/or Republicans (since it is clear now that many C’s are not R’s anymore and many R’s are not C’s) to have dissent within the ranks? Keep us busy arguing about this stupid report instead of organizing against the Great Obama Deity’s extreme makeover of the country?

Looks like it’s working at least in this thread….

266 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:00:51pm

re: #263 GlockNspell

and the fact of the matter is that its the repsonbility of DHS to check out all veterans so we dont get blindsided ,like we did at OKC - the conservative movement in America is lousy with these anti-government types

Sparky makes my point.

267 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:01:03pm

re: #216 Jimash

… DHS report can and will and has been read …

The words you use are true. A nutcase can read anything into anything.

I’ll give you my unsolicited two cents. I’m a Vietnam vet. My Dad was a pre-WW II Marine, and a WW II and Korea vet. I’ve read the DHS report, and I see nothing … NOTHING … in it which is addressed to, or at, military veterans in general.

There’s been an unconscionable amount of Obama (and LLL) Derangement Syndrome over that report. Certain leaders of veterans associations have damaged the cause by going off utterly half-cocked.

IMHO, they don’t need to apologize to the DHS as much as to we veterans. They have f*cked us … THE VETERANS … by lack of due dilligence in exercising reason in defending our rights.

/I . am . pissed !

268 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:01:20pm

re: #259 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was Ayers considered a left wing extremist, or simply an extremist.

I am seriousl

He was and is a lefty.

269 katemaclaren  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:02:05pm

re: #259 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was Ayers considered a left wing extremist, or simply an extremist.

I am seriousl

Good question. I always thought left wing extremist because he was so far out into the land of Anarchia.

270 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:02:08pm

re: #259 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was Ayers considered a left wing extremist, or simply an extremist.

I am seriousl

See #243.

271 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:02:10pm

re: #256 avanti

I know, I already told her she could be a bitchy as she wants while quitting, it’ll be worth it to her and me in the long run.

I am sure that you know that nicotine is purged from the blood stream in about 72 hours. Now it is psychological. Do not let her handle a sharp object & do not turn your back. Back out of a room, you will be better off.

272 thebigolddog  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:02:33pm

re: #254 Jimash

It says that a small percentage of veterans will be susceptible to being recruited by Right Wing extremist groups.

The FBI’s own data linked here at LGF shows the number of vets in extremist groups is 0.001% (around 250 members out of a vet population close to 24M). That is not “small” it is infinitesimal. In fact, I bet I could come up with 100 things more than 5% of these nuts had in common. As for Vets being some sort of super multiplier, I’d worry about engineers long before vets. But, that’s just me.

273 DistantThunder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:02:48pm

Screening people is a skill set. People, like job recruiters, and law enforcement, are trained to ask questions, and look for significant clues in those answers. People who are untrained, or who have low social EQ’s, the equivalent of emotional IQ’s, often jump to conclusions about people and the significance of certain characteristics.

Now if the DHS report was meant for law enforcement, and they are trained to screen for certain traits, it might have been useful for them to have the report since the subset of right-wing extremists, in fact, might just show up at the tea parties BECAUSE the extremists are trying to blend in.

Being a vet does not give them extremist views, but they can blend in with vets, and the same goes with right to life supporters. Extremists are looking for ways to appear mainstream, and their “ven diagram” may overlap with mainstream interests, but they have a big area that is extreme. They try and exploit their overlap areas. So it makes sense that the authorities would think that the tea parties draw them out.

274 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:02:51pm
275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:03:29pm

re: #270 solomonpanting

Thanks.

276 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:03:56pm

Charles, I’m just curious—has there been a recent, severe upswing in the number of people you had to take the ban stick to?

277 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:04:03pm

……-.. .—. -.-.— / .. .——. — / -… . .. -. —. / ……-.. -.. / .. -. / .- -. / ..- -. -.…-. —. .-. —- ..- -. -.. / .-.. —- -.-. .- - .. —- -. / -… -.— / - …. . / -.. …. … .-.-.- / .- .-.. .-.. / .. / -.. .. -.. / .— .- … / — . -. - .. —- -. / —- -… .- — .- / .. -. / - …. . / … .- — . / … . -. - . -. -.-. . / .— .. - …. / -… —- — -… —..— / … -. .. .—…-. / .-. .. ..-. .-.. . —..— / .- -. - …. .-. .- -..- / .- -. -.. / .- … … .- … … .. -. .- - .. —- -. .-.-.- / -. —- .— / - …. . -.— / … .- -.— / .. .——. — / .- -. / . -..- - .-. . — .. … - .-.-.- / .— . .-.. .-.. —..— / .- .-.. .-.. / — -.— / — .. .-.. .. - .. .- / -… ..- -.. -.. .. . … / … .- -.— / - …. . / … .- — . / - …. .. -. —. … / .- .-.. .-.. / - …. . / - .. — . .-.-.- / .— …. -.— / .- — / .. / -… . .. -. —. / .—…-. … . -.-. ..- - . -.. ..—.. / .. … / .- -. -.— —- -. . / .-.. .. … - . -. .. -. —. ..—..

…—-…

278 Rancher  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:04:08pm

re: #251 seagreenroom

I would just like to know that our illustrious goobermint is also hot on the trail of left-wing extremists.

Is that too much to ask? I don’t believe anybody in the current administration is the least bit interested in digging up any dirt on their leftist cronies.

Maybe not but the career guys are.

279 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:04:28pm

re: #231 gitarfan

“Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.”

The problem is the report doesn’t define extremism per se.

For the purpose of broad definition, the quoted paragraph was clear enough to me.

Study the grammar very carefully.

280 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:04:31pm

re: #265 Mikey_Dallas

Gee folks. Don’t you see the whole purpose of all of this is to cause conservatives and/or Republicans (since it is clear now that many C’s are not R’s anymore and many R’s are not C’s) to have dissent within the ranks? Keep us busy arguing about this stupid report instead of organizing against the Great Obama Deity’s extreme makeover of the country?

Looks like it’s working at least in this thread….


whoa. looks to me like Charles is one of the few out there that is being rational - that Obama is doiing no such thing, he’s actually the reasoned one amidst all this craziness and hysteria put up by jerks like Beck and Limbaugh and hannity. the tea parties were all about the right wing conservative dictators directing theese reactionaries out onto the streets and it backfired big time

281 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:04:37pm

re: #259 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Was Ayers considered a left wing extremist, or simply an extremist.

I am seriousl


I do not ever recall Ayers, Dohrn & that ilk referred to as Left Wing anything. They were usually referred to as Militants.

282 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:04:38pm

re: #274 MandyManners

Kinda’ like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Just not advisable.

283 Bloodnok  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:04:39pm

re: #277 Cato the Elder

……-.. .—. -.-.— / .. .——. — / -… . .. -. —. / ……-.. -.. / .. -. / .- -. / ..- -. -.…-. —. .-. —- ..- -. -.. / .-.. —- -.-. .- - .. —- -. / -… -.— / - …. . / -.. …. … .-.-.- / .- .-.. .-.. / .. / -.. .. -.. / .— .- … / — . -. - .. —- -. / —- -… .- — .- / .. -. / - …. . / … .- — . / … . -. - . -. -.-. . / .— .. - …. / -… —- — -… —..— / … -. .. .—…-. / .-. .. ..-. .-.. . —..— / .- -. - …. .-. .- -..- / .- -. -.. / .- … … .- … … .. -. .- - .. —- -. .-.-.- / -. —- .— / - …. . -.— / … .- -.— / .. .——. — / .- -. / . -..- - .-. . — .. … - .-.-.- / .— . .-.. .-.. —..— / .- .-.. .-.. / — -.— / — .. .-.. .. - .. .- / -… ..- -.. -.. .. . … / … .- -.— / - …. . / … .- — . / - …. .. -. —. … / .- .-.. .-.. / - …. . / - .. — . .-.-.- / .— …. -.— / .- — / .. / -… . .. -. —. / .—…-. … . -.-. ..- - . -.. ..—.. / .. … / .- -. -.— —- -. . / .-.. .. … - . -. .. -. —. ..—..

…—-…

I was saying that only this morning.

284 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:04:49pm

re: #277 Cato the Elder

……-.. .—. -.-.— / .. .——. — / -… . .. -. —. / ……-.. -.. / .. -. / .- -. / ..- -. -.…-. —. .-. —- ..- -. -.. / .-.. —- -.-. .- - .. —- -. / -… -.— / - …. . / -.. …. … .-.-.- / .- .-.. .-.. / .. / -.. .. -.. / .— .- … / — . -. - .. —- -. / —- -… .- — .- / .. -. / - …. . / … .- — . / … . -. - . -. -.-. . / .— .. - …. / -… —- — -… —..— / … -. .. .—…-. / .-. .. ..-. .-.. . —..— / .- -. - …. .-. .- -..- / .- -. -.. / .- … … .- … … .. -. .- - .. —- -. .-.-.- / -. —- .— / - …. . -.— / … .- -.— / .. .——. — / .- -. / . -..- - .-. . — .. … - .-.-.- / .— . .-.. .-.. —..— / .- .-.. .-.. / — -.— / — .. .-.. .. - .. .- / -… ..- -.. -.. .. . … / … .- -.— / - …. . / … .- — . / - …. .. -. —. … / .- .-.. .-.. / - …. . / - .. — . .-.-.- / .— …. -.— / .- — / .. / -… . .. -. —. / .—…-. … . -.-. ..- - . -.. ..—.. / .. … / .- -. -.— —- -. . / .-.. .. … - . -. .. -. —. ..—..

…—-…

And here I am without my Space Ranger Super Decoder Ring!

285 Spider Mensch  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:04:49pm

re: #277 Cato the Elder

……-.. .—. -.-.— / .. .——. — / -… . .. -. —. / ……-.. -.. / .. -. / .- -. / ..- -. -.…-. —. .-. —- ..- -. -.. / .-.. —- -.-. .- - .. —- -. / -… -.— / - …. . / -.. …. … .-.-.- / .- .-.. .-.. / .. / -.. .. -.. / .— .- … / — . -. - .. —- -. / —- -… .- — .- / .. -. / - …. . / … .- — . / … . -. - . -. -.-. . / .— .. - …. / -… —- — -… —..— / … -. .. .—…-. / .-. .. ..-. .-.. . —..— / .- -. - …. .-. .- -..- / .- -. -.. / .- … … .- … … .. -. .- - .. —- -. .-.-.- / -. —- .— / - …. . -.— / … .- -.— / .. .——. — / .- -. / . -..- - .-. . — .. … - .-.-.- / .— . .-.. .-.. —..— / .- .-.. .-.. / — -.— / — .. .-.. .. - .. .- / -… ..- -.. -.. .. . … / … .- -.— / - …. . / … .- — . / - …. .. -. —. … / .- .-.. .-.. / - …. . / - .. — . .-.-.- / .— …. -.— / .- — / .. / -… . .. -. —. / .—…-. … . -.-. ..- - . -.. ..—.. / .. … / .- -. -.— —- -. . / .-.. .. … - . -. .. -. —. ..—..

…—-…


sure! easy for you to say!

286 Mithrax  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:05:17pm

re: #277 Cato the Elder

Lol

287 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:05:26pm
288 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:05:36pm

re: #274 MandyManners

Kinda’ like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Some knives are more equal than others.

289 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:05:38pm

re: #224 Charles

And seven of those references to “right-wing” are direct quotes from the DHS report on “right-wing extremism.”

Yes, but even in that article they give quotes from the DHS report that are examples of the subtle subtle clever little needling innuendos which feel like smears of Obama’s ideological opponents. Such as (from the CNN article):

“The election of President Obama is cited as a key recruitment tool. ‘Many right-wing extremists are antagonistic toward the new presidential administration and its perceived stance on a range of issues, including immigration and citizenship, the expansion of social programs to minorities, and restrictions on firearm ownership and use,’ the report said.”

Wait wait wait — “the expansion of social programs to minorities”? ? ? What federal social programs were previously denied to minorities until Obama came along? There aren’t any. The Civil Rights Act in 1965 put an end to any governmental discrimination according to race.

The implication here is that Obama is “expanding social programs to minorities” (itself a false claim) and that anybody who opposes Obama’s social programs is possibly a racist extremist.

But since the expansion of social programs under Obama has nothing to do with race, but is rather an overall growing of the welfare state, then those who oppose it are in no way racists. But the subtle implication is there.

These kind of innuendos are buried throughout the document. I could cite more, but they’re easily spottable.

I can’t vouch for any of the hyperbolic claims made about the document by other pundits (“it smears all veterans” etc.), but it seems to my personal observation that it does indeed contain many underhanded innuendos.

290 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:05:47pm

re: #284 sattv4u2

And here I am without my Space Ranger Super Decoder Ring!

Copy message and click on the link!

291 debutaunt  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:05:53pm

re: #284 sattv4u2

And here I am without my Space Ranger Super Decoder Ring!

It’s some rant about Ovaltine or something.

292 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:05:58pm

re: #277 Cato the Elder

That’s what she said.

293 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:06:27pm

re: #277 Cato the Elder

I understood that///Not. Now do this.

˙˙—-˙˙˙

˙˙—˙˙ ˙— ˙- ˙˙ ˙- ˙ - ˙˙˙ ˙˙ ˙˙-˙ / ˙ ˙- —- —˙- ˙- -˙ / ˙˙˙ ˙˙ / ˙˙—˙˙ ˙˙- ˙ - -˙˙ ˙-˙- ˙ ˙˙˙ ˙-˙ ˙ ˙—˙ / ˙— ˙- ˙˙ ˙ ˙˙˙- / ˙˙ / — -˙ / —˙- ˙˙˙˙ —˙ / -˙-˙-˙ ˙ — ˙˙ - / ˙ ˙˙˙˙ - / ˙˙-˙ ˙˙-˙ -˙ / ˙˙˙ ˙— ˙- ˙˙ ˙˙˙˙ - / ˙ — -˙ ˙˙˙ / ˙ ˙˙˙˙ - / —˙- -˙ ˙˙˙ / ˙˙˙ ˙ ˙˙ ˙˙- ˙˙- -˙˙ ˙˙˙- / -˙ ˙˙ - ˙˙ ˙˙-˙ ˙˙ — / —˙- — / ˙˙-˙ ˙˙-˙ -˙ / —˙˙— ˙˙-˙ ˙˙-˙ ˙ —˙ / -˙-˙-˙ - ˙˙˙ ˙˙ — ˙ ˙-˙ - -˙˙- ˙ / ˙- -˙ / — ˙——˙ ˙˙ / —˙- -˙ ˙˙˙ / —˙- ˙ ˙˙˙˙ - / —˙ —- ˙- / -˙-˙-˙ ˙- —- ˙˙ - -˙ ˙- ˙˙ ˙˙˙ ˙˙˙ -˙ ˙˙˙ ˙˙˙ -˙ / ˙˙- ˙- -˙ / -˙˙- -˙ ˙-˙ ˙˙˙˙ - ˙- -˙ / —˙˙— ˙ ˙˙-˙ ˙-˙˙ ˙˙ ˙-˙ / ˙-˙ ˙ ˙—˙ ˙˙ ˙- ˙˙˙ / —˙˙— ˙˙˙- — —- ˙˙˙- / ˙˙˙˙ - ˙˙ —˙ / ˙ ˙-˙- ˙- ˙ - ˙- ˙ ˙˙˙ / ˙ — -˙ ˙˙˙ / ˙ ˙˙˙˙ - / ˙- ˙˙ / -˙ — -˙ ˙˙˙- —- / ˙- —- ˙˙ - ˙- ˙ — / ˙˙˙ -˙ —˙ / ˙˙- ˙˙ ˙˙- / ˙˙ / ˙˙-˙ ˙˙-˙ -˙ / -˙-˙-˙ ˙˙˙ ˙˙˙˙ ˙˙- / ˙ ˙˙˙˙ - / —˙- ˙˙˙- / ˙- —- ˙˙ - -˙ ˙-˙- —- ˙˙-˙ / ˙˙- ˙- -˙˙ —- ˙-˙ ˙— ˙-˙ ˙ ˙˙- ˙- -˙˙ / ˙- -˙ / ˙- ˙˙ / ˙˙- ˙˙-˙ ˙ ˙˙˙˙ / ˙— ˙- ˙˙ ˙ ˙˙˙- / — ˙——˙ ˙˙ / —˙-˙- ˙—˙ ˙˙-˙ ˙ ˙˙˙˙

294 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:06:36pm

re: #277 Cato the Elder

We are on the way to save you. Stand away from the door.

295 Last Mohican  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:06:37pm

re: #284 sattv4u2

And here I am without my Space Ranger Super Decoder Ring!

You can just click the space ranger super decoder link at the bottom of the post.

The times they are a-changin’.

296 brookly red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:06:51pm

re: #277 Cato the Elder

ooooops! I hope the food is good….

297 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:07:21pm

re: #288 DEZes

Some knives are more equal than others.

I see you’ve played “Knifey-Spoony” before.

298 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:08:00pm

re: #251 seagreenroom

I would just like to know that our illustrious goobermint is also hot on the trail of left-wing extremists.

Is that too much to ask? I don’t believe anybody in the current administration is the least bit interested in digging up any dirt on their leftist cronies.

Wrong:

foxnews.com

299 NukeAtomrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:09:02pm

Maybe the reason heads are exploding everywhere has to do with the confusion caused by the left-right dichotomy.

On a scale which begins with Stalin on the Left and ends with Hitler on the Right, where exactly does Milton Friedman fit on the scale? I think the correct answer is nowhere.

If you are a conservative, it’s time to stop identifying yourself with the Right or the Left. We are Small Government Anti-Authoritarians. Downists? Southists? I don’t know, but it’s time we define ourselves properly.

300 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:09:56pm

“Oh Brother, Where Art Thou” is on.

So is “The Fifth Element”.

Lakers/Jazz.

Which to watch?

301 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:10:13pm

re: #297 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I see you’ve played “Knifey-Spoony” before.

I want one. ;)

302 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:10:24pm

re: #300 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

“Oh Brother, Where Art Thou” is on.

So is “The Fifth Element”.

Lakers/Jazz.

Which to watch?

Watch the B-Ball.

303 debutaunt  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:11:49pm

re: #299 NukeAtomrod

Maybe the reason heads are exploding everywhere has to do with the confusion caused by the left-right dichotomy.

On a scale which begins with Stalin on the Left and ends with Hitler on the Right, where exactly does Milton Friedman fit on the scale? I think the correct answer is nowhere.

If you are a conservative, it’s time to stop identifying yourself with the Right or the Left. We are Small Government Anti-Authoritarians. Downists? Southists? I don’t know, but it’s time we define ourselves properly.

Either you have individual freedom or you don’t.

304 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:12:20pm

re: #256 avanti

I know, I already told her she could be a bitchy as she wants while quitting, it’ll be worth it to her and me in the long run.

I quit many years ago, after many failures. I finally quit reading the instructions on the various aids I had tried (in addition to cold turkey, which was a dismal failure, too) and slapped two patches on each arm, then gnawed nicotine gum incessantly whenever I had the urge, which was pretty much continually.

Got rid of the patches, one at a time, within two weeks; stuck with the gum for a couple of months, then ditched it completely one day with no withdrawal symptoms at all. Smoke-free since.

Just my experience. People have mixed results with the nicotine aids, but they can certainly get you through a rough patch.

305 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:12:37pm

re: #293 Erik The Red

Doesn’t work with that translator. Did you encode it with theirs?

306 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:12:48pm

re: #299 NukeAtomrod

Maybe the reason heads are exploding everywhere has to do with the confusion caused by the left-right dichotomy.

On a scale which begins with Stalin on the Left and ends with Hitler on the Right, where exactly does Milton Friedman fit on the scale? I think the correct answer is nowhere.

If you are a conservative, it’s time to stop identifying yourself with the Right or the Left. We are Small Government Anti-Authoritarians. Downists? Southists? I don’t know, but it’s time we define ourselves properly.

You just summarized the essay I’ve been working on (about identifying a new political orientation that jettisons the left/right dichotomy).

307 Jimmah  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:12:55pm

re: #265 Mikey_Dallas

It’s a conspiracy!

“In a years time, following Obama’s election win, we will release this document, and it will create havoc at LGF and conservative web sites all around the grobe bwahahahaha! Then Obama, (having already been elected President), will be able to…er… take over and stuff”

308 HoosierHoops  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:13:06pm

re: #276 davinvalkri

Charles, I’m just curious—has there been a recent, severe upswing in the number of people you had to take the ban stick to?

I’ve been here since last summer..I have never seen such a rush of moths to the flame..Generally not long time respected lizards..Folks you have never heard of just exploding on scene with some dramatic meme..
/Not to future lizards considering jumping off the cliff..My Son is a Marine..If I read or thought the DHS report smeared our brave sons and daughter Vets..I’d be leading the march with pitchforks..
Now back the fuck down and relax folks.. The DHS not only didn’t smear our Vet’s..Alot of the employees are Vets..I need a calculator just to get track of all the people jumping the shark the last couple of days and getting banned..
Chill the fuck out..For the last time..

309 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:13:08pm

re: #230 buzzsawmonkey

You give me fever
Fever when you kiss me
Fever when you hold me tight
Feeeeeee-vah! In the morning
Fever all through the night

That loses something without Peggy Lee (or Rita Moreno) singing it.

/you don’t pack th’ gear, buzz … :D

310 alegrias  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:13:22pm

It takes a real macho person to attend local, state, regional monthly political meetings, and fundraisers, and work THROUGH the existing system month after month, year after year, rain or shine, to get and keep the leaders and government you want.

311 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:13:38pm

re: #300 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #302 Erik The Red

Watch the B-Ball.

Nahhh ,, it’s already on the way to “blow out” territory

312 Seagreenroom  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:14:06pm

re: #280 GlockNspell

whoa. looks to me like Charles is one of the few out there that is being rational - that Obama is doiing no such thing, he’s actually the reasoned one amidst all this craziness and hysteria put up by jerks like Beck and Limbaugh and hannity. the tea parties were all about the right wing conservative dictators directing theese reactionaries out onto the streets and it backfired big time

Do you believe hard-working Americans who chafe at being taxed to death are racist and/or unpatriotic?

313 J.S.  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:14:46pm

re: #289 zombie

Might also add that there are some “leftists” (?) who also take issue with the DHS report…it’s on the grounds that the reports may focus too narrowly on what “the thoughts” (belief system, etc) are of the individual/groups, as opposed to a focus on behavior…Thus, from Lou Dobbs Tonight (aired April 15), Robert Zimmerman stated:

ZIMMERMAN: Also, the Department of Homeland Security had commissioned a report focusing on the growth of right wing extremists and left wing extremists. And the Bush administration was wrong to take that position to the report. And the Obama administration was entirely wrong to release it.

Extremists are not defined by philosophy, they are defined by their murderous tactics. And we’re talking about people who are essentially murderers and terrorists and it’s not about philosophy. It’s about their behavior. And that should be focus. It was entirely off base and I think very, I think misleading and very defamatory to start dealing with liberal or conservative philosophy.

314 Last Mohican  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:14:52pm

re: #298 Charles

Wrong:

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

I’m glad you had that handy. It would seem to refute the argument that DHS is solely concerned about “extremists” on the political right. However, I must say, I’m not concerned with this language in the appendix, which limits the definition of left-wing “extremists” to just anarchists and animal rights/environmental groups:

(U//FOUO) DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis defines leftwing extremists as groups or individuals who embrace radical elements of the anarchist, animal rights, or environmental movements and are often willing to violate the law to achieve their objectives. Many leftwing extremist groups are not hierarchically ordered with defined members, leaders, or chain of command structures but operate as loosely-connected underground movements composed of “lone wolves,” small cells, and splinter groups.
315 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:15:19pm

re: #311 sattv4u2

re: #302 Erik The Red

Nahhh ,, it’s already on the way to “blow out” territory

5th Element. More Mila Jovovich, less George Clooney.

316 NukeAtomrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:15:43pm

re: #174 cincinnati_kid37

Really, then why are the left acting like Fascists ?
They want everyone else to shut up and their agendas are above debate. Pretty Fascist don’t ya think?

Silencing your opponents is the first and most sought after goal of any Authoritarian state/movement. Communists, fascists and tyrants of all types have wet-dreams about attaining such power.

317 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:15:44pm

re: #289 zombie

The trouble with looking for “subtle implications” is that, by definition, they’re subtle. In other words, if you look for them you’ll probably find them.

When blogs started yelling about the DHS report, I actually held off from posting for several days. During that time I found an original copy of the report at Wikileaks (some of the ones out there have been tampered with), and read it for myself. Then I read it again. Then I went around and read what blogs were saying about it, and was utterly shocked because they seemed to be describing an entirely different report from the one I read.

And several blogs went even beyond that into deliberate misrepresentation. There’s a reason why so many people seem to think the report “smears all veterans” — because sources like the Washington Times and a number of right wing bloggers are lying about that.

318 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:16:12pm

re: #312 Seagreenroom

Do you believe hard-working Americans who chafe at being taxed to death are racist and/or unpatriotic?

Updinged.

319 Jimash  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:16:13pm

re: #298 Charles

Charles, grant me some string because there is some part of this whole thing that is eluding me, no kidding.
I read that one too.
It focuses SOLELY on Cyber-attacks, and makes no mention of bombs, violence, r anarchic center-city rave-ups.
It sure doen’t mention Ayers -like communist cells as a threat.
It pretty much absolves all such groups of any violent intent.
What wit the old right-wing extremists seeming to find common ground with Islamists and then the left-wing survivalist faction (whose racism rivals the right) going truther, and now the Right -wing nutters climbing back out of the soup on their own again it does get a little confusilating.

320 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:16:31pm

re: #300 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

“Oh Brother, Where Art Thou” is on.

So is “The Fifth Element”.

Lakers/Jazz.

Which to watch?

Fifth Element, mos def. Hot chicks beat hoops and chain gangs like a hammer beats a nail.

321 Last Mohican  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:16:34pm

re: #314 Last Mohican

However, I must say, I’m not concerned with this language in the appendix, which limits the definition of left-wing “extremists” to just anarchists and animal rights/environmental groups:

Oops. It’s never good when your typo turns your comment into the opposite of what you were trying to say. Sorry about that.

322 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:17:09pm
323 unrealizedviewpoint  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:17:14pm

re: #304 SixDegrees

If I were you I would ask Charles to delete your post. You are advocating a very dangerous practice that can and maybe will cause death. Nicotine is a very dangerous drug. You are suggesting to people that they should overdose to quit smoking. Not good.

324 Mikey_Dallas  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:17:19pm

re: #280 GlockNspell

1st - I didn’t say anything about Charles - he’s the one who is saying this report is no big deal, which is what I said - that it is a stupid report that is no big deal.

2nd - Pundits like Limbaugh or Hannity are in the business of expressing opinions. You don’t have to agree, but they are upfront about what they are doing, unlike our “news” organizations.

3rd - Obama’s proposals are nothing less than extreme. And he is not a pundit, he’s leader of the free world. If he got all his programs enacted, this country would look dramatically different that it does now. I don’t know how anybody can not believe that. Maybe you want what he’s selling, but to deny that his proposals are extreme in the context of the history of our country and the founding principles is to simply be blind. I don’t want what he’s selling, and I have the absolute right to political dissent, and I would like to keep it and use it if you don’t mind.

4th - the tea parties were about big government, being made much, much bigger over the next 10 years if BO gets his way. When will that bother you? If 70+ trillion in unfunded liabilities doesn’t bother you, will 100 trillion?

That’s the plan of the left. Anybody who thinks Obama has an extreme agenda is crazy.

325 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:17:28pm

OT,,,
I would just like to thank the peice of broiled trout that is sitting in front of me for jumping onto my hook Saturday. You are making my afternoon

326 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:17:37pm

re: #308 HoosierHoops

I’ve been here since last summer..I have never seen such a rush of moths to the flame..Generally not long time respected lizards..Folks you have never heard of just exploding on scene with some dramatic meme..

No offense to Buzzsawmonkey, Alegrias & other “old-timers” but it’s gotten to the point that when I see a poster without an avatar, I just assume that they are a nutty lurker popping up to spew at Charles.

327 doppelganglander  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:18:06pm

re: #289 zombie

Your observation comes close to what I’ve been thinking about this report. Its observations about potential threats are true in a broad way, which is all it seems to be intending to say. However, I am concerned that it’s so broad and vague that it could easily be misused to characterize anyone who is, say, against illegal immigration as a right wing extremist.

That “expansion of social services to minorities,” in my opinion, refers to illegal immigrants. It’s still a mischaracterization, because illegal immigrants have been getting free public schooling, health care, food stamps, and other forms of assistance for years. If it’s expanding, I can’t imagine what else they’re proposing to give them.

But in any event, I can easily see the Obama administration using a vague report like this to smear its opponents as racists and extremists. And THAT, not the actual contents, is what concerns me.

328 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:18:25pm

re: #251 seagreenroom

I would just like to know that our illustrious goobermint is also hot on the trail of left-wing extremists.

Is that too much to ask? I don’t believe anybody in the current administration is the least bit interested in digging up any dirt on their leftist cronies.

There have been references on previous threads to a report on left-wing extremist threats that was leaked in January. It has come up often enough that a web search will probably land it for you.

329 madeindetroit  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:18:51pm

re: #114 Charles

I notice you’re not even trying to defend your first claim now.

Honestly, my original response contained multiple points, most of which explained a direction of thought contrary to what you immediately accused me of meaning. In an attempt to correct what I thought was a simple matter of miscommunication, I have tried to stay to one point to see where the miscommunication lies, but you have failed to actually answer the questions I have directed to you. I don’t know why.

So, let’s try again. Do you think there is a possibility that someone in law enforcement could take the policies that have and will come out of this report in a direction that is perhaps, over zealous?

330 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:19:11pm

re: #289 zombie

Yes, but even in that article they give quotes from the DHS report that are examples of the subtle subtle clever little needling innuendos which feel like smears of Obama’s ideological opponents. Such as (from the CNN article):

The implication here is that Obama is “expanding social programs to minorities” (itself a false claim) and that anybody who opposes Obama’s social programs is possibly a racist extremist.

But since the expansion of social programs under Obama has nothing to do with race, but is rather an overall growing of the welfare state, then those who oppose it are in no way racists. But the subtle implication is there.

These kind of innuendos are buried throughout the document. I could cite more, but they’re easily spottable.

I can’t vouch for any of the hyperbolic claims made about the document by other pundits (“it smears all veterans” etc.), but it seems to my personal observation that it does indeed contain many underhanded innuendos.

I think the “smearing” aspects of this memo are way way overblown, but I also think it is indeed a very sloppily written memo. I am surprised it got published in the form it’s in.

Back when I was employed by a state gubmint agency, these types of memos were not issued until the entire executive staff had gone over all the wording with a fine-toothed comb, one purpose of which was to make sure no one’s political view got in the way of the writing of the document, and then the attorneys had to give their OK.

I think DHS skipped that process before they issued this.

331 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:19:17pm

re: #289 zombie

This was cited from the DHS report as noted in the CNN article you mention.

“The election of President Obama is cited as a key recruitment tool. ‘Many right-wing extremists are antagonistic toward the new presidential administration and its perceived stance on a range of issues, including immigration and citizenship, the expansion of social programs to minorities, and restrictions on firearm ownership and use,’ the report said.”

Notice the emphasis on “perceived stance” which is important in that citation. They are making these observations based on a perceived stance. Further that citation includes the following from the DHS report.

The most important sentence should follow from the DHS report which is:

Rightwing extremists are increasingly galvanized by these concerns and leverage them as drivers for recruitment.

So in summary they’re saying that right-wing extremists are antagonistic towards a perceived stance of the president on a variety of issues. Galvanized by these perceptions it is thus used as recruitment propaganda.

332 drogheda  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:19:19pm

re: #196 Charles

The report does not do that. There are qualifiers all over every statement.

Some folks just don’t grok qualifiers. Qualifiers might as well be fnord as far as they are concerned.

333 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:19:30pm

re: #317 Charles

I hear you saying that there are “different versions” of the report circulating. Correct?

Without doing the research you did, I began to seriously wonder about that … just from watching comments.

/blind men with hands upon DIFFERENT elephants

334 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:19:35pm

re: #312 Seagreenroom

Do you believe hard-working Americans who chafe at being taxed to death are racist and/or unpatriotic?

if they take to the streets carrying racist signs and asking for overthrow of our President who was elected by a huge majority, yes.

335 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:20:39pm
336 NukeAtomrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:20:59pm

re: #306 zombie

Glad to be of service.

337 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:21:16pm

re: #321 Last Mohican

Oops. It’s never good when your typo turns your comment into the opposite of what you were trying to say. Sorry about that.

*grin*
Simple mistake. You merely tied yourself into a “not”.

338 brookly red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:21:18pm

re: #334 GlockNspell

mighty big “if”…

339 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:21:38pm

re: #299 NukeAtomrod

Maybe the reason heads are exploding everywhere has to do with the confusion caused by the left-right dichotomy.

On a scale which begins with Stalin on the Left and ends with Hitler on the Right, where exactly does Milton Friedman fit on the scale? I think the correct answer is nowhere.

If you are a conservative, it’s time to stop identifying yourself with the Right or the Left. We are Small Government Anti-Authoritarians. Downists? Southists? I don’t know, but it’s time we define ourselves properly.

First off, I there with Jonah Goldberg about Communism and Fascism being heresies of Socialism, so your spectrum only runs from left ot left. Second, we need to claim and defend the right, not walk off the field. America has room for two major parties—be in one of them.

340 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:21:44pm

re: #304 SixDegrees

I quit many years ago, after many failures. I finally quit reading the instructions on the various aids I had tried (in addition to cold turkey, which was a dismal failure, too) and slapped two patches on each arm, then gnawed nicotine gum incessantly whenever I had the urge, which was pretty much continually.

Got rid of the patches, one at a time, within two weeks; stuck with the gum for a couple of months, then ditched it completely one day with no withdrawal symptoms at all. Smoke-free since.

Just my experience. People have mixed results with the nicotine aids, but they can certainly get you through a rough patch.

I used the patches and quit while I used them, but before I was completely “cured”, I developed a fierce allergy to them, where if one got anywhere near my skin, I would get a huge itching red welt.

I just got the “smokeless” cigarette system (delivers nicotine but none of the other stuff), and I’ll see how that works.

341 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:22:18pm

re: #319 Jimash

Charles, grant me some string because there is some part of this whole thing that is eluding me, no kidding.
I read that one too.
It focuses SOLELY on Cyber-attacks, and makes no mention of bombs, violence, r anarchic center-city rave-ups.
It sure doen’t mention Ayers -like communist cells as a threat.

The Weather Underground stopped being a threat more than 30 years ago.

It pretty much absolves all such groups of any violent intent.

Uh — that is simply not true. From the first page of the report:

This assessment examines the potential threat to homeland security from cyber attacks conducted by leftwing extremists, a threat that DHS/I&A believes likely will grow over the next decade. It focuses on the more prominent leftwing groups within the animal rights, environmental, and anarchist extremist movements that promote or have conducted criminal or terrorist activities (see Appendix).

In other words, the report focuses on cyber attacks because that is the focus of the report. And it clearly says that some of the animal rights groups, et al, promote criminal and terrorist activity.

342 carbon footprint  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:22:22pm

Great work Charles.
We have to expose all extremist groups. The only difference between a violent right-wing extremist and a violent left-wing extremist is ideology. The fact that they use violence rather than debate makes both equally dangerous and they should be condemned and prosecuted.

343 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:22:30pm

At the risk of being downdinged, I think this guy nails it! From our local newspaper today.
lvrj.com

344 HoosierHoops  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:22:56pm

re: #326 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

No offense to Buzzsawmonkey, Alegrias & other “old-timers” but it’s gotten to the point that when I see a poster without an avatar, I just assume that they are a nutty lurker popping up to spew at Charles.

I gotta agree with ya..I have never seen anything like it the last week or so..On a positive note.. It’s spring cleaning time and a bunch of nutters just got flushed.. I like the sparkly shine and new car smell..

345 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:22:58pm

re: #335 buzzsawmonkey

It is clear to me now. This “elephant” is like a sack of avocadoes.

And some of them appear to be rather (*cough*) … “ripe”.

346 Last Mohican  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:23:50pm

re: #319 Jimash

Charles, grant me some string because there is some part of this whole thing that is eluding me, no kidding.
I read that one too.
It focuses SOLELY on Cyber-attacks, and makes no mention of bombs, violence, r anarchic center-city rave-ups.
It sure doen’t mention Ayers -like communist cells as a threat.
It pretty much absolves all such groups of any violent intent.

True, it focuses solely on cyber-attacks, which makes these groups seem less violent and somehow more civlized. If this were the only DHS document on left-wing extremism, I’d be quite upset about this. But it’s only one leaked document. Maybe there are others that focus on violence.

What concerns me more is the limitation of the definition of left-wing extremist to just anarchists, environmentalists, and animal rights activists. If I spend half an hour walking down the street in the right neighborhood, I can see people proudly wearing the insignia of PLO terrorists. At virtually any big left-wing demonstration, including “peace marches,” you’ll find people waving the flags of Hizbollah terrorists. American universities are full of left-wing professors who teach their students that American civilians deserved to die on 9/11, certainly inciting at least a few of these students to kill even more Americans. Mainstream left-wing websites are full of proclamations that Jews should be killed.

Is DHS not concerned about all of this? Or do they merely mean to protect the good name of the political left by implying that these people aren’t leftists, just because they’re not chaining themselves to trees and freeing laboratory animals?

347 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:23:50pm

re: #306 zombie

You just summarized the essay I’ve been working on (about identifying a new political orientation that jettisons the left/right dichotomy).

We’ll have to re-arrange some chairs in Washington.

348 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:24:26pm

re: #334 GlockNspell

if they take to the streets carrying racist signs and asking for overthrow of our President who was elected by a huge majority, yes.

Wow! Exaggerate much Glock? Screw you.

349 MJ  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:24:41pm

re: #326 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

No offense to Buzzsawmonkey, Alegrias & other “old-timers” but it’s gotten to the point that when I see a poster without an avatar, I just assume that they are a nutty lurker popping up to spew at Charles.

Hey…I’m “old-school”. Was here long before avatars. I find them distracting and turned them all off within a few days of their appearance on lgf.

350 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:25:06pm

re: #343 VegasRick

At the risk of being downdinged, I think this guy nails it! From our local newspaper today.
[Link: www.lvrj.com…]

Oh, please. Here we go again, making claims about the report that are NOT TRUE:

According to the Department of Homeland Security, Americans need to be on the lookout for twisted, hate-filled veterans recruited from the ranks of people passionate about a single issue like, say, illegal immigration or abortion.

Talk about profiling. Navy vet? Check. Strong border laws? Check. Anti-abortion? Check. Uh-oh. My government thinks I’m a potential terrorist.

This, of course, is absurd. But more importantly, it is dangerous fear-mongering at its worst. The folks in the Department of Homeland Security could not be more scary when they use such language to describe, and thus target, citizens who disagree politically with the Obama administration.

This is bullshit.

351 tryptic67  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:25:32pm

Do you think we could find examples of dangerous right wing nutcases that post-date 2007? Then I might be truly be worried about the situation on the ground in 2009.

After all, wasn’t it the DHS that said it was the economic crisis and the historic election of Barak Obama that were fueling an uptick in right-wing domestic terror groups, including a “small” percentage of veterans (actually, as one poster has correctly pointed out it is not a “small” percentage, but a number so close to infintesimal that one wonders if it’s simply a liberal fantasy rather than anything based on fact).

In any event, if the DHS report is to be justified, then the evidence of 2009 activity should be manifest, shouldn’t it? We should be seeing story ripped from today’s headlines … not re-treads from the dark days of the Bush administration and high times economically. Shouldn’t we? Or maybe it’s the political equivalent of global warming … cooked books and alarmist facts and a government hatchet job.

I wonder if anyone thought to ask if Messrs Kahle and Landis are veterans. Or if they even voted.

352 Dustyvet  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:25:33pm

re: #267 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The words you use are true. A nutcase can read anything into anything.

I’ll give you my unsolicited two cents. I’m a Vietnam vet. My Dad was a pre-WW II Marine, and a WW II and Korea vet. I’ve read the DHS report, and I see nothing … NOTHING … in it which is addressed to, or at, military veterans in general.

There’s been an unconscionable amount of Obama (and LLL) Derangement Syndrome over that report. Certain leaders of veterans associations have damaged the cause by going off utterly half-cocked.

IMHO, they don’t need to apologize to the DHS as much as to we veterans. They have f*cked us … THE VETERANS … by lack of due dilligence in exercising reason in defending our rights.

/I . am . pissed !

Well said Boomer, thanks!

353 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:26:27pm

re: #189 GlockNspell

exactly - the conservatives that will try to get back to power will HAVE to get rid of these extemists - way too many votes were lost in 11/2008 because middle of the road people voted Dem cuz they were sick of the evangelicals, the anti-choicers, the whack jobs who want to deport 20 million people.

What do “evangelicals, the anti-choicers, the whack jobs who want to deport 20 million people” have anything to do with nutjobs who make bombs and have delusions of assassination?

354 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:26:30pm

re: #342 carbon footprint

Great work Charles.
We have to expose all extremist groups. The only difference between a violent right-wing extremist and a violent left-wing extremist is ideology. The fact that they use violence rather than debate makes both equally dangerous and they should be condemned and prosecuted.

that hits the nail on the head - the far right conservatives CANT debate anymore cuz their platforms of right-2-life, creationism, imperialistic wars in the middle east, abandoning education and social asistance, and deporting 20 million people from this country are completely out of touch with the majjority of americans - so they resort to the extremism.

355 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:27:02pm

re: #351 tryptic67

Do you think we could find examples of dangerous right wing nutcases that post-date 2007? Then I might be truly be worried about the situation on the ground in 2009.

After all, wasn’t it the DHS that said it was the economic crisis and the historic election of Barak Obama that were fueling an uptick in right-wing domestic terror groups, including a “small” percentage of veterans (actually, as one poster has correctly pointed out it is not a “small” percentage, but a number so close to infintesimal that one wonders if it’s simply a liberal fantasy rather than anything based on fact).

In any event, if the DHS report is to be justified, then the evidence of 2009 activity should be manifest, shouldn’t it? We should be seeing story ripped from today’s headlines ... not re-treads from the dark days of the Bush administration and high times economically. Shouldn’t we? Or maybe it’s the political equivalent of global warming … cooked books and alarmist facts and a government hatchet job.

I wonder if anyone thought to ask if Messrs Kahle and Landis are veterans. Or if they even voted.

Like the headline that Charles posted at the very beginning of this thread?

356 Seagreenroom  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:27:14pm

re: #314 Last Mohican

Agreed on the appendix definition of “left-wing extremists”. Even though I was somewhat smacked down with the link (thanks Charles), I also felt the definition was much too narrow. We have a LOT of left-wing extremists in the country.. many in positions of influence and power. Their goal is to destroy America as we know it.

357 pink freud  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:27:31pm

re: #299 NukeAtomrod

Maybe the reason heads are exploding everywhere has to do with the confusion caused by the left-right dichotomy.

On a scale which begins with Stalin on the Left and ends with Hitler on the Right, where exactly does Milton Friedman fit on the scale? I think the correct answer is nowhere.

If you are a conservative, it’s time to stop identifying yourself with the Right or the Left. We are Small Government Anti-Authoritarians. Downists? Southists? I don’t know, but it’s time we define ourselves properly.

Your answer. Scroll to second chart.

358 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:27:36pm

re: #317 Charles

The trouble with looking for “subtle implications” is that, by definition, they’re subtle. In other words, if you look for them you’ll probably find them.

When blogs started yelling about the DHS report, I actually held off from posting for several days. During that time I found an original copy of the report at Wikileaks (some of the ones out there have been tampered with), and read it for myself. Then I read it again. Then I went around and read what blogs were saying about it, and was utterly shocked because they seemed to be describing an entirely different report from the one I read.

And several blogs went even beyond that into deliberate misrepresentation. There’s a reason why so many people seem to think the report “smears all veterans” — because sources like the Washington Times and a number of right wing bloggers are lying about that.

You’re much more well-versed than I am in the blogospheric over-reaction to this report. Unlike you, I haven’t had the time to keep tabs on all the craziness being spouted by various blogs and pseudo news sites.

You are undoubtedly correct in pointing out that the document is being misrepresented and overblown by many on the “right” side of the aisle. And you are correct to not join the herd of over-reactors, and to stand firm in your position.

Even so, the hyperbolic mis-characterization of the report does not mean that the report is necessarily blameless. What I’ve seen of it does (to my eyes at least) contain subtle innuendos and ideological jabs. Not overt ones as many are claiming — but rather implied insinuations.

The problem, which you’ve pinpointed so well, is that the over-reaction has poisoned the well. Because places like World Net Daily etc. have over-reached and made claims that weren’t true, then the more accurate criticisms of the report are thereby discredited. And that’s what’s so infuriating.

359 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:27:53pm

re: #335 buzzsawmonkey

It is clear to me now. This “elephant” is like a sack of avocadoes.


With bad breath.

360 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:28:06pm

re: #334 GlockNspell

if they take to the streets carrying racist signs and asking for overthrow of our President who was elected by a huge majority, yes.

Were you around any of the actual Tea Parties? I walked though one in Chicago on my way to a meeting. Out of curiosity I lingered a while.
I did not see any “racist” signs or calls for the overthrow of the government.

361 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:28:13pm

re: #350 Charles

This is bullshit.

I respectfully disagree. I do not trust this administration.

362 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:28:19pm

re: #323 unrealizedviewpoint

If I were you I would ask Charles to delete your post. You are advocating a very dangerous practice that can and maybe will cause death. Nicotine is a very dangerous drug. You are suggesting to people that they should overdose to quit smoking. Not good.

Worked wonders for me. The instructions that come with the aids are chock full of such warnings. They are also written for an unstated “average” smoker - which at three packs a day, I certainly wasn’t. There is no attempt made in the instructions to tailor dosage if you smoke more than one pack a day, which they term “heavy,” with a recommendation that “lighter”smokers use less.

Not that any of that matters.

I’m not advocating this approach, just relating it. My advice to anyone else was plainly stated: the nicotine aids can be helpful.

363 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:28:50pm

re: #343 VegasRick

At the risk of being downdinged, I think this guy nails it! From our local newspaper today.
[Link: www.lvrj.com…]

I think the opposite. He not only does not nail it, he twists BHO’s position on abortion enough to inspire the kind of hatred that inspires radicals.

364 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:28:54pm

re: #156 avanti

I was hoping I could tell you he speaks a few, but no, he’s embarrassed too. :)

No second language .

Wow. Even this backwoods rube speaks 2.2 languages.

365 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:29:32pm

re: #322 buzzsawmonkey

If I recall, the left/right dichotomy is a survival of the French Revolution, being based on which side of the room in the Chamber of Deputies the more conservative or more radical members sat.

Since we didn’t bother to adopt their attempt at a decimal system reorganization of the months and hours, I don’t see why we need to keep this relic either.

Have you been peeking over my shoulder at my essay?

366 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:29:36pm

I think Thanos had a link this morning to an article about the Aryan Nation creeps having stepped up recruitment efforts in Idaho.

I’ve heard Idaho is beautiful and that Boise offers a high quality of living, but the whole Aryan Nation thing has always kinda turned me off.

367 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:29:56pm

re: #363 avanti

I think the opposite. He not only does not nail it, he twists BHO’s position on abortion enough to inspire the kind of hatred that inspires radicals.

And BHO’s position on abortion is ,,

legal, safe and rare !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

368 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:30:32pm

re: #299 NukeAtomrod

Maybe the reason heads are exploding everywhere has to do with the confusion caused by the left-right dichotomy.

On a scale which begins with Stalin on the Left and ends with Hitler on the Right, where exactly does Milton Friedman fit on the scale? I think the correct answer is nowhere.

If you are a conservative, it’s time to stop identifying yourself with the Right or the Left. We are Small Government Anti-Authoritarians. Downists? Southists? I don’t know, but it’s time we define ourselves properly.

That’s why I believe it isn’t a left / right scale but a circle. Stalin and Hitler converge at the bottom by moving to the opposite sides.

369 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:30:46pm

re: #343 VegasRick

At the risk of being downdinged, I think this guy nails it! From our local newspaper today.
[Link: www.lvrj.com…]

IMHO … the fellow is WAY over-reacting. He’s taking words like immigration and abortion (to which the report itself attached conditional wording) and waving them about as broad generalizations.

The precise grammar used in the DHS report does NOT support his point of view.

370 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:30:59pm

re: #360 opnion

Were you around any of the actual Tea Parties? I walked though one in Chicago on my way to a meeting. Out of curiosity I lingered a while.
I did not see any “racist” signs or calls for the overthrow of the government.

then i take it you didn’t see these photos from the tea parties…

….(Tea parties….. )

371 Scion9  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:31:08pm

re: #156 avanti

I was hoping I could tell you he speaks a few, but no, he’s embarrassed too. :)

No second language .

Obama needs to go back and read his own book, where he claims that he is conversationally fluent in Indonesian.

372 Seagreenroom  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:31:20pm

re: #334 GlockNspell

if they take to the streets carrying racist signs and asking for overthrow of our President who was elected by a huge majority, yes.

Huge majority? 53%?

“O” was the lucky recipient of a crashing economy and a complicit MSM. Otherwise, he’d be nothing more than a footnote. And I’ve been to some tax protests. The vast majority in attendance are patriotic Americans who want to return to our founding principles.

The race card is going to blow up in your face.

373 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:31:20pm

re: #350 Charles

This is bullshit.

It is. Here’s what the report actually says:

Paralleling the current national climate, rightwing extremists during the 1990s exploited a variety of social issues and political themes to increase group visibility and recruit new members. Prominent among these themes were the militia movement’s opposition to gun control efforts, criticism of free trade agreements (particularly those with Mexico), and highlighting perceived government infringement on civil liberties as well as white supremacists’ longstanding exploitation of social issues such as abortion, inter-racial crimes, and same-sex marriage.

Emphasis mine. And they’re not saying those involved with abortion issues but pointing out the exploitation of said issue.

374 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:31:44pm

re: #340 reine.de.tout

I used the patches and quit while I used them, but before I was completely “cured”, I developed a fierce allergy to them, where if one got anywhere near my skin, I would get a huge itching red welt.

I just got the “smokeless” cigarette system (delivers nicotine but none of the other stuff), and I’ll see how that works.

Yeah, they’re not for everyone. Patches and gum were the only options available when I quit. Never had any irritation from them, but it’s warned about in the instructions, as I recall.

375 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:32:14pm

re: #354 GlockNspell

that hits the nail on the head - the far right conservatives CANT debate anymore cuz their platforms of right-2-life, creationism, imperialistic wars in the middle east, abandoning education and social asistance, and deporting 20 million people from this country are completely out of touch with the majjority of americans - so they resort to the extremism.

Are you for real? I’m thinking you are a plant of some kind. Maybe a peanut tree.

376 tryptic67  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:32:23pm

#355 - go read it again. They’ve been targeting this guy since 2007.

377 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:32:30pm

re: #371 Scion9

Obama needs to go back and read his own book, where he claims that he is conversationally fluent in Indonesian.

Is Socialist a language? He’s fluent in that also.

378 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:32:33pm

re: #352 Dustyvet

Well said Boomer, thanks!

Thank you.

I was prepared to log off after posting that, but the seething passed.

379 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:32:37pm

re: #280 GlockNspell

You feeling ok?

Go on, tell us that Bush was evil for disposing saddam, and liberating Afganistan.
‘Cause it bad to deal with dictators and oppressive regimes.

Should cheer you right up.

380 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:32:53pm
381 jaunte  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:33:36pm

re: #375 VegasRick

Are you for real? I’m thinking you are a plant of some kind. Maybe a peanut tree.

Strictly a partisan.

382 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:33:47pm

re: #363 avanti

I think the opposite. He not only does not nail it, he twists BHO’s position on abortion enough to inspire the kind of hatred that inspires radicals.

I am so very glad that you disagree with him. The world is still spinning correctly.

383 themadking  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:34:10pm

Charles, I luv ya! Always have. In my opinion, you have done the American public great services with your Dan Rather and Fauxtography shootdowns. One can only wonder how Dan’s lie would have gone over with the voting public, had he not been caught with his typographical pants down by some sharp-eyed hawks who were looking for it. Perhaps even President Kerry?

I am even in agreement with you on right wing extremists. We have them. Just like we have the Lefties that burn down animal labs and housing developments, and plot cyber attacks, which DHS has also reported on.

What I disagree with is the DHS RWE report’s generality. It’s too broad and vague. Individuals with views on abortion and illegal immigration? Are you kidding me? Even the DHS Civil Liberties Division objected to the broad language, but DHS rushed it out the door over their objections anyway.

By the way, a DHS Fusion Center in Missiori issued this report:

“If you’re an anti-abortion activist, or if you display political paraphernalia supporting a third-party candidate or a certain Republican member of Congress, if you possess subversive literature, you very well might be a member of a domestic paramilitary group.

“That’s according to “The Modern Militia Movement,” a report by the Missouri Information Analysis Center (MIAC), a government collective that identifies the warning signs of potential domestic terrorists for law enforcement communities.”

Fusion centers were originally set up after 9/11 by DHS as regional anti-terrorist information processing centers, but are now becoming highly politicized. Many are, in effect, political profiling centers now. And that’s the ACLU talking, not me.

Charles, I have no beef with you, and certainly want none. I admire you. But I see worrisome political signposts here. I’m not going to go off the deep end and call it Night and Fog, but I sure don’t like what I see. That domestic wiretaps have shot up under Obama, and well beyond limits set by Congress, is worrisome also. NSA called it an “over-collection of domestic communications.”

On what? DHS-defined right-wing chatter? Doesn’t bother you? I also find it interesting that the DHS RWE report mentioned ‘right wing chatter’, yet the term ‘left wing chatter’ isn’t even in the report on left wing cyber attacks! How bad is that? Where else have you heard the term ‘chatter’ most widely applied to, Charles?

Lastly, I’m with Michelle Malkin. This DHS RWE report may have been started under Bush, but it lacked all the specificity of the Bush-era Left Wing Extremism report, and was far too vague and broad. Their Civil Liberties Division even said so!

I’ve said my piece, both here and for Breitbart. Make up your own mind. But I have gone out of my way not to make this a personal attack, Charles. I know you’re getting hammered right now. I wouldn’t want to anyway. I like you too much. Consider it a strong opinion, much like your own.

‘nuff said.

384 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:34:23pm

2:20 not 2:30 minutes Erik. I just burnt microwave popcorn for about the 10th time.

385 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:34:23pm

re: #379 swamprat

you’re off topic, doofus

386 HoosierHoops  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:34:38pm

******************
Programming note:
******************
The Lakers are playing..They look really good..Crap! I’d love to see them upset…Do you think the Goddess would let me put a prayer request on her list to see LA destroyed and humiliated this year? Would that be out of line?

387 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:34:43pm

re: #358 zombie

Even so, the hyperbolic mis-characterization of the report does not mean that the report is necessarily blameless. What I’ve seen of it does (to my eyes at least) contain subtle innuendos and ideological jabs. Not overt ones as many are claiming — but rather implied insinuations.

The problem, which you’ve pinpointed so well, is that the over-reaction has poisoned the well. Because places like World Net Daily etc. have over-reached and made claims that weren’t true, then the more accurate criticisms of the report are thereby discredited. And that’s what’s so infuriating.

My view too. Precisely put. Thanks.

388 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:35:08pm

re: #361 VegasRick

I respectfully disagree. I do not trust this administration.

That editorial makes several false claims about the DHS report. I quoted it — all of the claims in the section I quoted are false or distorted. This has nothing to do with trusting the Obama administration — it has to do with people who are lying about the DHS report.

389 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:35:31pm

re: #370 GlockNspell

then i take it you didn’t see these photos from the tea parties…

….(Tea parties….. )

Actually no, I have just seen these particular pictures for the first time & yes a couple are offensive. What I do know is that I saw none of that in Chicago.
Again, did you atually attend one?

390 J.S.  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:35:57pm

re: #358 zombie

Might note that in the DHS report there are a number of references to “immigration” issues…I did not pick up many qualifiers (such as “illegal immigration” — the report simply notes those who are opposed to immigration — as far as I’m concerned, that too should be perfectly acceptable under the First Amendment — as an American citizen i have an absolute right to critique Immigration laws and opposed those laws I find unjust…)

391 NukeAtomrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:36:10pm

re: #339 haakondahl

First off, I there with Jonah Goldberg about Communism and Fascism being heresies of Socialism, so your spectrum only runs from left ot left. Second, we need to claim and defend the right, not walk off the field. America has room for two major parties—be in one of them.

I tend to agree, but this is the accepted spectrum. I didn’t make it up.

en.wikipedia.org

en.wikipedia.org

392 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:36:15pm

re: #358 zombie

You’re much more well-versed than I am in the blogospheric over-reaction to this report. Unlike you, I haven’t had the time to keep tabs on all the craziness being spouted by various blogs and pseudo news sites.

You are undoubtedly correct in pointing out that the document is being misrepresented and overblown by many on the “right” side of the aisle. And you are correct to not join the herd of over-reactors, and to stand firm in your position.

Even so, the hyperbolic mis-characterization of the report does not mean that the report is necessarily blameless. What I’ve seen of it does (to my eyes at least) contain subtle innuendos and ideological jabs. Not overt ones as many are claiming — but rather implied insinuations.

The problem, which you’ve pinpointed so well, is that the over-reaction has poisoned the well. Because places like World Net Daily etc. have over-reached and made claims that weren’t true, then the more accurate criticisms of the report are thereby discredited. And that’s what’s so infuriating.

With as much paper as I’ve shuffled for the government, I’m more than willing to chalk up, sight unseen, a lot of subtle innuendo to the random-walk approach taken to editing and tone in professional documents.

There’s huge potential for abuse of citizenry by the government. That’s why we have set the government up the way we have. But to go from that concept to accusations of systemic tyranny will require a far higher signal-to-noise ratio than the whispers of concern we see in some parts of the report.

“Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.”

—Various

393 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:36:18pm

re: #385 GlockNspell

no doubt

394 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:37:03pm

re: #372 Seagreenroom

Huge majority? 53%?

“O” was the lucky recipient of a crashing economy and a complicit MSM. Otherwise, he’d be nothing more than a footnote. And I’ve been to some tax protests. The vast majority in attendance are patriotic Americans who want to return to our founding principles.

The race card is going to blow up in your face.

Notce that the Ist picture of the little boy is circa 1962, just to set the mood.

395 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:37:04pm
Aryan Nations recruiting again in northern Idaho
23 hours ago
COEUR D’ALENE, Idaho (AP) — The Aryan Nations has returned to northern Idaho with what it is calling a “world headquarters” and a recruitment campaign.
Coeur d’Alene resident Jerald O’Brien, who has a large swastika tattoo on his scalp, is one of the leaders of the white supremacist group and said he expects membership to grow because of the election of President Barack Obama.
He told The Spokesman-Review newspaper that the president is the “greatest recruiting tool ever.”
Residents of a Coeur d’Alene subdivision found recruitment fliers on their lawns Friday and O’Brien said more fliers will be distributed. He said the group has “several handfuls” of members in the city.
The fliers show a young girl asking her father “Why did those dark men take mommy away?”
But many in the region reject the group.
“I saw Aryan Nations and put it in the trash,” said Garvin Jones. “What’s wrong with these people? Give me a break. I bet if you went back in their family history, not one is 100 percent white.”
The newspaper reported that most people interviewed about the fliers declined to be identified for fear of retribution.
The Aryan Nations had a compound in northern Idaho until 2000, when the group lost a $6.3 million civil judgment in favor of two people who sued after being attacked by Aryan Nations’ members.
The Kootenai County Task Force on Human Relations has fought the Aryan Nations for decades and is offering its services to anyone threatened or harassed by the group.
“It’s bound to be a small group of people trying once again to bring hate into the community,” said Tony Stewart, a spokesman for the task force. “They don’t have anywhere to operate from except a post office box.”
O’Brien said he regularly flies two white supremacist flags outside his home on the east side of the city.
The newspaper reported that its files show O’Brien marching in a neo-Nazi parade in Coeur d’Alene in July 2004 and joining in a skinhead rally that drew eight people outside the Spokane County courthouse in Spokane, Wash., in June 2007.

LOL 8 people. What a bunch of hard core losers.

But they are still disgusting, and tragically advertise themselves as right wing, which, yes, makes them right wing extremists.

396 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:37:09pm
397 GlockNspell  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:37:46pm

re: #389 opnion

Actually no, I have just seen these particular pictures for the first time & yes a couple are offensive. What I do know is that I saw none of that in Chicago.
Again, did you atually attend one?

no i didnt attend one but i didnt have to watch every minute of Fox news coverage either to now know that they lied about the DHS memo, did i?

398 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:38:02pm

re: #385 GlockNspell

you’re off topic, doofus

LOL! He’s a poopypants! Very mature of you.

399 davinvalkri  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:38:08pm

Tinfoil hat time!
Maybe someone in the Department of Homeland Security deliberately constructed and worded the report the way it is explicitly to split Buckley’s conservative movement into two hostile camps and ensure the preservation of progressiveist power!
/pffffft…do I really?

400 Dustyvet  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:38:34pm

re: #378 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thank you.

I was prepared to log off after posting that, but the seething passed.

Is ok…:) My BP is up for about the 10th time today…;(

401 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:39:07pm
402 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:39:10pm

re: #380 buzzsawmonkey

Melanin is not a magic talisman against criticism; neither is “being elected by a huge majority.” One can “be elected by a huge majority” and still be dead wrong, or clueless—and, for that matter, even if one is correct, people who disagree with the person “elected by a huge majority” still have not only the right to criticize his actions if they so choose, but the obligation to do so if they feel he is taking the country in the wrong direction. That does not mean anyone else has the obligation to agree with them, of course.

I don’t know what you imagine “racism” to be—other than criticism of someone bearing the magic melanin talisman against contradiction—but without supporting racism in any way, shape or form I would remind you that “racism” is not illegal. We have not degenerated to outlawing thoughtcrime yet, the best efforts of the PC left notwithstanding. Racist acts of certain types are illegal, and rightly so—but, again without endorsing racist acts or expressions of racism, if someone wants to carry a sign giving vent to such expressions they have a perfect right to do so, repulsive as such sentiments may be.

That might depend. If one were to carry a racist sign to a Martin Luther King rally it could be deemed as incitement. Another example would be what occurred during the Jena 6 demonstrations with racist symbolism which could be considered incitement by law enforcement.

403 NukeAtomrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:39:17pm

re: #368 Oh no…Sand People!

That’s why I believe it isn’t a left / right scale but a circle. Stalin and Hitler converge at the bottom by moving to the opposite sides.

If it’s a circle, there should be a logical progression. How do you travel Right, making government smaller and smaller and accepting more and more individual liberty and arrive at Hitler’s National Socialism? I just don’t see it.

404 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:39:29pm

re: #354 GlockNspell

I see your true colors shining through…

405 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:39:42pm

re: #396 MandyManners

How about that dynamic duo in Tennesee right now, arrested for planning to kill FCBBHO and as many blacks as they could find? (I don’t recall the exact charges but, that is the plot they allegedly were hatching.)

littlegreenfootballs.com

406 RadicalRon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:39:55pm
#112 alegrias

re: #107 RadicalRon

My gut - or maybe it’s commonsense - tells me that the threat assessments are not a first-time occurrence. Consider that they are at least an annual assessment, but more likely semi-annual or quarterly.

* * * *
Why call yourself “Radical”, Ron? C’mon. Please get a new name. Have some respect for Charles’ blog as a place for non-idiots.

Nice to see that you have your priorities right, sweetcakes.

407 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:39:58pm

re: #400 Dustyvet

Is ok…:) My BP is up for about the 10th time today…;(

Chill, my friend.
(-:

408 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:40:04pm

re: #397 GlockNspell

no i didnt attend one but i didnt have to watch every minute of Fox news coverage either to now know that they lied about the DHS memo, did i?

Oh I see, you have special power, congratulations.

409 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:40:17pm

re: #372 Seagreenroom

Huge majority? 53%?

“O” was the lucky recipient of a crashing economy and a complicit MSM. Otherwise, he’d be nothing more than a footnote. And I’ve been to some tax protests. The vast majority in attendance are patriotic Americans who want to return to our founding principles.

The race card is going to blow up in your face.

The race card was deployed over and over and over again and people apparently aren’t tired of it yet. I’m not overly optimistic that the race hustlers will suffer for dragging it out whenever it’s convenient.

410 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:40:21pm

re: #254 Jimash

Charles, I read it.
It says that a small percentage of veterans will be susceptible to being recruited by Right Wing extremist groups.
It then goes on to say that an Unnamed Civil Rights Organization estimates that there are a “Large number” of ALREADY Right wing extremist Nazi Skinhead types serving in order to learn “The art of war “.
And it says that ‘Rural” veterans are particularly at risk.
Though these statements might all be true and reasonable, they will be read as a blanket condemnation by the same people who say that as a democrat I must be a Racist since I didn’t vote for Pres, Obama.
Or that a belief in legal immigration and deportation of illegals is somehow “Fascist” or extreme.
Not everyone reads as well as you, and I do not trust the motivations of many of them.

Worse, the report also has no evidence whatsoever to support such claims.

The “large number” of extremists joining the army turn out to be: a few hundred gang members.

The “some returning military veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan [that] have joined extremist groups” turn out to be: a whopping 19 returning vets.

Seems like the willful distortion is coming from the DHS, not from us.

411 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:40:25pm

re: #358 zombie

You’re much more well-versed than I am in the blogospheric over-reaction to this report. Unlike you, I haven’t had the time to keep tabs on all the craziness being spouted by various blogs and pseudo news sites.

You are undoubtedly correct in pointing out that the document is being misrepresented and overblown by many on the “right” side of the aisle. And you are correct to not join the herd of over-reactors, and to stand firm in your position.

Even so, the hyperbolic mis-characterization of the report does not mean that the report is necessarily blameless. What I’ve seen of it does (to my eyes at least) contain subtle innuendos and ideological jabs. Not overt ones as many are claiming — but rather implied insinuations.

The problem, which you’ve pinpointed so well, is that the over-reaction has poisoned the well. Because places like World Net Daily etc. have over-reached and made claims that weren’t true, then the more accurate criticisms of the report are thereby discredited. And that’s what’s so infuriating.

Salesmen: “See Mr. Customer this widget3000 does many things. It does your dishes, grates your cheese, and mows your lawn.”

*Customer’s eyes mist over in thought*

Mr. Customer: “Wow! That must mean it can do laundry too, fix my t.v., and take out the trash…”

Salesmen: [silent]

Customer: “I’ll take it!”

You paint the picture to be as much truth as possible and then leave out a quarter of it or don’t even discuss negatives. Let the ‘Mr. Customer’ fill in the ‘missing’ pieces with their own assumptions…regardless of right or wrong.

Now that is the sign of a great salesmen. :)

412 tryptic67  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:40:46pm

re: #370 GlockNspell

then i take it you didn’t see these photos from the tea parties…

….(Tea parties….. )

It’s unsurprising pretend-conservatives like “GlockNspell” … who are actually liberals with not an iota’s understanding of conservative thought or policy, as evidenced by the “wars of imperialism reference” in one his posts …. would feel comfortable here, egging on the whole “you right-wing crazies are going to kill the whole party” meme. I wonder why the liberals like GlockNspell are happy to be advancing that same line of attack?

413 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:40:55pm

re: #400 Dustyvet

Is ok…:) My BP is up for about the 10th time today…;(

Do something relaxing — pet the dog or wok the cat.

414 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:41:00pm

re: #382 VegasRick

I am so very glad that you disagree with him. The world is still spinning correctly.

Look, just disagreeing with a person does not necessarily indicate political bias, it could indicate the guy was just wrong. In this case, he misrepresented both the DHS report and the POTUS’s abortion stand. I feel falsely accusing the POTUS of supporting infanticide is dangerous.

415 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:41:21pm

Ayers, uh no, Cheney, uh, Bush, uh, no, uh Soros, uh, Garolfolo, Hannitty, Orielly, Olberman, Pelosi, hmmmmm, well anyway, you devious bastards!
‘Had me fooled there, but it’s true. There are Right Wing Wackos!

/stop making sense………

416 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:41:26pm

re: #395 funky chicken

LOL 8 people. What a bunch of hard core losers.

But they are still disgusting, and tragically advertise themselves as right wing, which, yes, makes them right wing extremists.

In today’s world, the size of a group isn’t a reliable indicator of how dangerous they can be.

And yes, they do indeed call themselves “right wing.”

417 J.S.  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:41:29pm

re: #334 GlockNspell

I believe you need to take a refresher course on the First Amendment.

418 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:41:34pm

re: #408 opnion

Oh I see, you have special power, congratulations.

He rode the special bus in school.

419 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:41:36pm

re: #405 Charles

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

I thought they turned out to be a couple of crackheads?

420 Dustyvet  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:41:43pm

re: #413 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Do something relaxing — pet the dog or wok the cat.

I know I’ll wok my dogma, and let the cat chase it…:)

421 Seagreenroom  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:42:28pm

I’m with theMadKing on this one.

Well said.

422 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:42:47pm

re: #398 VegasRick

LOL! He’s a poopypants! Very mature of you.

He is a true intellectual.

423 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:42:50pm

re: #358 zombie

….. have over-reached and made claims that weren’t true, then the more accurate criticisms of the report are thereby discredited. And that’s what’s so infuriating.

Bingo Zombie. Charles is right, but I have problems with the report, though not as much as the current populist rage on this subject. I think Reine tagged it: it’s not written that well.

424 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:43:06pm
425 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:43:53pm

re: #422 opnion

He is a true intellectual.

Oh yea! LOL!

426 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:43:57pm

re: #383 themadking

[…] By the way, a DHS Fusion Center in Missiori issued this report:

“If you’re an anti-abortion activist, or if you display political paraphernalia supporting a third-party candidate or a certain Republican member of Congress, if you possess subversive literature, you very well might be a member of a domestic paramilitary group.

“That’s according to “The Modern Militia Movement,” a report by the Missouri Information Analysis Center (MIAC), a government collective that identifies the warning signs of potential domestic terrorists for law enforcement communities.” […]

I call bullshit. You link to the DHS site on fusion centers, but your text comes from somewhere else. Source, please?

I’m pretty sure no fusion center anywhere issues reports that read like “you know you’re a redneck when…” jokes.

And MIAC? Link? A “government collective”?

What freeper site did you get all this from?

427 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:44:29pm

re: #383 themadking

WTF was that? Like Liberace just swooped down in a UFO to disagree with Charles. TOODLES!

428 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:45:09pm
429 Bob Dillon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:45:27pm

re: #32 LGoPs

My unscientific rule of thumb is that 10% of any group is nuts. I don’t care if you’re talking about priests or doctors, poiticians, religious believers or lizards for that matter.
The key is to disassociate those nuts from staining and branding the entire group.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
Marcus Aurelius

430 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:45:44pm

re: #414 avanti

Look, just disagreeing with a person does not necessarily indicate political bias, it could indicate the guy was just wrong. In this case, he misrepresented both the DHS report and the POTUS’s abortion stand. I feel falsely accusing the POTUS of supporting infanticide is dangerous.

Avanti, you mentioned BHO’s stance on abortion. This is not a gotcha question, do you know what the Infant Protection Act is & how Obama voted as an Illinois State Senator?

431 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:46:05pm
432 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:46:07pm

I washed the inside of the living room windows today (tracks included).
Now I’m going to take off the screens and wash the outside.
BBIAB

/ and NO, I don’t make no GD house calls !

433 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:46:52pm

re: #403 NukeAtomrod

If it’s a circle, there should be a logical progression. How do you travel Right, making government smaller and smaller and accepting more and more individual liberty and arrive at Hitler’s National Socialism? I just don’t see it.

I guess only in the sense that both groups at the bottom are armed and are willing to push their beliefs with force. The one is Anarchy on the right. The other is an Oligarchy on the left. However, even with limited Gov’t, the Anarchy group will still be controlled by a group looking to seize power.

434 pink freud  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:47:38pm

Auschwitz survivors with consecutive numbered tattoos reunite.

Wow.

435 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:48:06pm

re: #430 opnion

Avanti, you mentioned BHO’s stance on abortion. This is not a gotcha question, do you know what the Infant Protection Act is & how Obama voted as an Illinois State Senator?

Why would you even ask? He will distort the truth to make it look like his hero is right there in the abortion room making sure all the aborted babies souls go straight to heaven. Just wait.

436 Dustyvet  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:48:12pm

re: #432 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I washed the inside of the living room windows today (tracks included).
Now I’m going to take off the screens and wash the outside.
BBIAB

/ and NO, I don’t make no GD house calls !

Gee lad the site of you hanging in a safety harness, out side my 5th story apatment windows made my wee heart soar…:)

437 NukeAtomrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:48:21pm

re: #357 pink freud

Your answer. Scroll to second chart.

I’ve seen this before, but it still makes my head want to asplode! According to this, Hitler isn’t either a Right or Left wing extremist. He was a moderate that wanted complete control of everyone’s personal lives. Is that what the DHS report should have been about? Moderate Extremists?

438 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:48:40pm
439 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:49:04pm

re: #435 VegasRick

Why would you even ask? He will distort the truth to make it look like his hero is right there in the abortion room making sure all the aborted babies souls go straight to heaven. Just wait.


I guess that I’m hoping for more.

440 zombie  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:49:08pm

re: #392 haakondahl

With as much paper as I’ve shuffled for the government, I’m more than willing to chalk up, sight unseen, a lot of subtle innuendo to the random-walk approach taken to editing and tone in professional documents.

There’s huge potential for abuse of citizenry by the government. That’s why we have set the government up the way we have. But to go from that concept to accusations of systemic tyranny will require a far higher signal-to-noise ratio than the whispers of concern we see in some parts of the report.

I’m making no claims of tyranny by the Obama administration, and no claims of the government “profiling” right-wingers, etc. My only claim is that, intentionally or not, the report very sloppily creates a vague conflation of people who have conservative ideals with people who have extreme right-wing ideologies; and then conflates people who have extreme right-wing views with people who will act violently on those right-wing views.

These implications are not government policy; but rather, simply add to the overall atmosphere of partisan demonization of one’s political opponents. We expect such partiship in academia and among pundits; It’s just very disappointing to see this in an official government document.

Whether this conflation was done purposely, I cannot say. But considering the extreme partisanship in Washington, I’d be surprised if it was entirely due to “random walk” randomness.

441 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:49:13pm

re: #416 Charles

Yep. Right wing, and a swastika tattoo on his scalp. Of course lots of folks on the right will bend themselves into pretzels trying to convince the world that they are left-wing because of their affection for swastikas.

It’s ludicrous. And now I’m laughing remembering the scene from The Producers where Roger DeBrie’s assistant asks Bialastok and Bloom for their swastikas…..

Keep it happy, keep it snappy, keep it gay!

/sorry, I know this is a very serious subject.

442 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:49:50pm

re: #299 NukeAtomrod

Maybe the reason heads are exploding everywhere has to do with the confusion caused by the left-right dichotomy.

On a scale which begins with Stalin on the Left and ends with Hitler on the Right, where exactly does Milton Friedman fit on the scale? I think the correct answer is nowhere.

If you are a conservative, it’s time to stop identifying yourself with the Right or the Left. We are Small Government Anti-Authoritarians. Downists? Southists? I don’t know, but it’s time we define ourselves properly.

Hitler was not on the right. Hitler was for expansion of the government, government control of industry and finance, the good of the collective over the interests of the individual, government-run education, expansion of the welfare state, and ultimate government control of everything.

None of those are rightwing ideologies.

(Anyone who says otherwise is, apparently, in denial.)

443 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:50:27pm

re: #418 VegasRick

He rode the special bus in school.

Alright, i just spit out Diet Coke!

444 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:50:28pm

Here we go again.

445 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:51:02pm

re: #403 NukeAtomrod

I take these five forms of Government and just put them in a circle from left to right…with both ends converging together… In my opinion…

446 swamprat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:51:05pm

re: #399 davinvalkri

Maybe every effort is being made to paint the right as idiots, and the right is providing the brushes and picking out the colors.
And the media is amplifying this because this fits their template.

447 sattv4u2  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:51:13pm

re: #444 Gus 802

Here we go again.

Oh goody ,,, I’ll get my riding bonnet,,, Where are we going !?!?!

448 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:51:44pm

re: #435 VegasRick

Why would you even ask? He will distort the truth to make it look like his hero is right there in the abortion room making sure all the aborted babies souls go straight to heaven. Just wait.

I think that he is researching. When he is finished he really may not want to respond.

449 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:52:05pm

re: #423 BigPapa

Bingo Zombie. Charles is right, but I have problems with the report, though not as much as the current populist rage on this subject. I think Reine tagged it: it’s not written that well.

Hey, close enough for government work.

/eek

450 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:52:17pm

re: #380 buzzsawmonkey

Melanin is not a magic talisman against criticism; neither is “being elected by a huge majority.” One can “be elected by a huge majority” and still be dead wrong, or clueless—and, for that matter, even if one is correct, people who disagree with the person “elected by a huge majority” still have not only the right to criticize his actions if they so choose, but the obligation to do so if they feel he is taking the country in the wrong direction. That does not mean anyone else has the obligation to agree with them, of course.

I don’t know what you imagine “racism” to be—other than criticism of someone bearing the magic melanin talisman against contradiction—but without supporting racism in any way, shape or form I would remind you that “racism” is not illegal. We have not degenerated to outlawing thoughtcrime yet, the best efforts of the PC left notwithstanding. Racist acts of certain types are illegal, and rightly so—but, again without endorsing racist acts or expressions of racism, if someone wants to carry a sign giving vent to such expressions they have a perfect right to do so, repulsive as such sentiments may be.

I’ve already defriended someone on Facebook for referring to Obama as the NiC. Of course, he has every right to be a racist prick, and I have every right to shun him.

That person in the picture should have been bodily ejected from the demo. Not to do so says more about the other protesters than it does about that asshole.

451 tryptic67  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:52:46pm

re: #396 MandyManners

How about that dynamic duo in Tennesee right now, arrested for planning to kill FCBBHO and as many blacks as they could find? (I don’t recall the exact charges but, that is the plot they allegedly were hatching.)

Mandy, my original point is that the two examples cited at the top of this thread as evidence of a right-wing ‘problem’ all date back to 2007 … as indicated in the text of the articles.

I don’t think its terribly difficult to find right-wing nut jobs. But I think it is a stretch to say that there is a statistical increase in right-wing nutter activity or a likelihood that even a small percentage of veterans are susceptible to its allurements, whatever they may be.

My thesis is that this is the same exact level of right-wing extremism that we’ve seen. Just as Charles pointed out that Weather Undeground is a spent force, so too do I believe the militia movement is a spent force. I’m happy to have the FBI and ATF go prove me wrong. I would have given the shoot order at Ruby Ridge and I would have given the green light to enter the Waco Compound. I think McVeigh is one of the worse villains to ever serve in our military and deserved worse than he received. And I despise the entire supremacist mantra.

That being said, I think that the federal government gutted and entirely penetrated this movement in the 1990s, and that it is currently nothing more than a collection of geriatric loners (see above) and venom-spewers like Stormfront who will not take action. As a result, I reject the DHS’s contention that there is anything more going on on the extreme right than there has been since the mid-1990s, and that both the tone, the writing and the release of the DHS report was entirely .. .and I mean entirely … politically motivated to discredit the tea-party protests. That is the way the game is played in Washington. I believe that if the report were to be taken at face-value, then we should all be seeing a real increase in this sort of activity … not nailing guys who’ve been targets since 2007 (and I am very happy they were arrested).

452 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:53:29pm

re: #298 Charles

Wrong:

[Link: www.foxnews.com…]

Note, the Leftwing Extremism report explicitly defines leftwing extremists as specific groups with a proclivity of criminal and violent actions; further, it references actual acts of violence committed by such groups as well as those groups’ stated intent to continue to carry out such acts.

Now compare and contrast with the Rightwing Extremist report.

453 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:53:33pm

re: #439 opnion

I guess that I’m hoping for more.

I’ll wait, I should go but I have to see what BS he comes up with. The facts are there and he voted “not to change the original intent of the mother” (if you can actually say that). Might be above Avanti’s paygrade as well.

454 Erik The Red  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:54:04pm

re: #442 chipbennett

Hitler was about killing the Jews and making an Aryan race.

455 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:54:12pm
456 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:54:32pm

re: #423 BigPapa

Bingo Zombie. Charles is right, but I have problems with the report, though not as much as the current populist rage on this subject. I think Reine tagged it: it’s not written that well.

“Well written government report” is an oxymoron.

457 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:55:15pm

re: #456 Charles

“Well written government report” is an oxymoron.

That’s funny!

458 DEZes  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:55:49pm

re: #456 Charles

“Well written government report” is an oxymoron.

That’s an undeniable fact!

459 Kronocide  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:56:14pm

re: #456 Charles

Yes…. true…. LOL.

If they wrote it as well as a press report….

460 hacker  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:56:54pm

re: #101 Charles

It absolutely DOES NOT characterize all veterans as being high risk. That is false. It very clearly says “a small percentage” of veterans might be recruited by extremist groups.

A small percentage. Have you read the actual document? Because I don’t see how you could honestly say something like that if you had.

No, I have not read the report, nor have I participated to this point.

A “small percentage” is not only not an identifiable group, it is basically a tautology.

461 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:57:13pm

re: #453 VegasRick

I’ll wait, I should go but I have to see what BS he comes up with. The facts are there and he voted “not to change the original intent of the mother” (if you can actually say that). Might be above Avanti’s paygrade as well.

Yeah, I’m waiting too. Obama was afraid that providing medical care to an actually born infant would indeed defeat the original intent of the mother & somehow weaken Roe V Wade. He was the only Illinois Senator that did not vote to compel medical care for the survivor of a botched abortion.

462 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:57:35pm

re: #452 chipbennett

Note, the Leftwing Extremism report explicitly defines leftwing extremists as specific groups with a proclivity of criminal and violent actions; further, it references actual acts of violence committed by such groups as well as those groups’ stated intent to continue to carry out such acts.

Now compare and contrast with the Rightwing Extremist report.

because the leftwing extremist groups are larger and more defined and have been more active lately

DHS is being proactive and doesn’t want to see the rightwing extremist groups get similarly established and active

I can’t get terribly upset by that

463 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:57:51pm

re: #460 hacker

No, I have not read the report, nor have I participated to this point.

A “small percentage” is not only not an identifiable group, it is basically a tautology.

Mislaid your dictionary again?

464 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:58:02pm

re: #430 opnion

Avanti, you mentioned BHO’s stance on abortion. This is not a gotcha question, do you know what the Infant Protection Act is & how Obama voted as an Illinois State Senator?

Sure, he voted no. The bill in question was a definition bill that did nothing to protect the rights of a fetus. Viable fetuses were, and still are protected under law. The bill was just a back door attempt to undermine the right of choice.

link.

465 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:58:22pm

re: #461 opnion

Yeah, I’m waiting too. Obama was afraid that providing medical care to an actually born infant would indeed defeat the original intent of the mother & somehow weaken Roe V Wade. He was the only Illinois Senator that did not vote to compel medical care for the survivor of a botched abortion.

I know. Absolutely disgusting.

466 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:58:25pm
467 reine.de.tout  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:59:02pm

re: #456 Charles

“Well written government report” is an oxymoron.

ARGH!
Having been the author of a few “government reports” in my life (albeit at a state level, not the federal level), I take exception to that!

Of course, we did spend literally hours writing and re-writing and editing those things before they went out. I used to think it was a waste. Not anymore.

468 haakondahl  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 12:59:30pm

re: #440 zombie

I’m making no claims of tyranny by the Obama administration, and no claims of the government “profiling” right-wingers, etc. My only claim is that, intentionally or not, the report very sloppily creates a vague conflation of people who have conservative ideals with people who have extreme right-wing ideologies; and then conflates people who have extreme right-wing views with people who will act violently on those right-wing views.

These implications are not government policy; but rather, simply add to the overall atmosphere of partisan demonization of one’s political opponents. We expect such partiship in academia and among pundits; It’s just very disappointing to see this in an official government document.

Whether this conflation was done purposely, I cannot say. But considering the extreme partisanship in Washington, I’d be surprised if it was entirely due to “random walk” randomness.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that you were the one claiming tyranny—quite the opposite. And the apparent randomness is only a result, not anything actually random. If you could submit the same document through the same chop chain on two different days (first time each, of course, hence the hypothetical), you would likely see two very different documents. Yet each actor in that chain would swear that his own actions would depend on the document and the standards, not the document and the standards and a whole lot of other factors, like fresh coffee, or a “case of the Mondays”.

469 Fred72  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:00:24pm

re: #331 Gus 802

So in summary they’re saying that right-wing extremists are antagonistic towards a perceived stance of the president on a variety of issues. Galvanized by these perceptions it is thus used as recruitment propaganda.

Thanks for pointing this out. I would have, if you hadn’t.

To amplify your point… I think it’s apparent that much of the left-wing shrieking and hair-pulling during the Bush years was not based on stuff that Bush actually said or believed, but stuff that left-wing blogs and groups extrapolated (or simply invented) and turned into rallying cries.

470 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:01:27pm

re: #460 hacker

No, I have not read the report, nor have I participated to this point.

A “small percentage” is not only not an identifiable group, it is basically a tautology.

Another person who hasn’t read the report, but still feels qualified to express negative opinions about it.

Thanks for clarifying.

471 nyc redneck  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:01:35pm

the reason i bristle at this report and have problems being objective abt.
it, is because i don’t trust o and his administration to be objective.
the american legion commander felt insulted that the military would be singled out based on such a small estimate of soldiers “going bad.”
it is timothy mcvee and maybe a handful of others.
iirc there are currently 42 million people who have served their country and are decent citizens going abt. their lives.
i recall o slandering the troops in iraq when he was campaigning. he said they were air raiding villages and killing innocent people.
it is difficult to see this report as anything other than a move by the leftist
administration to taint conservatives and the military.
i can’t suspend my judgment and give it the benefit of the doubt.
i do not trust o. that is the bottom line. he just does not inspire confidence.

472 Shay4l  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:01:49pm

re: #462 funky chicken

because the leftwing extremist groups are larger and more defined and have been more active lately

DHS is being proactive and doesn’t want to see the rightwing extremist groups get similarly established and active

I can’t get terribly upset by that

Is it going to take resources away from known (leftwing) extremists groups?

473 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:02:12pm

re: #442 chipbennett

Hitler was not on the right. Hitler was for expansion of the government, government control of industry and finance, the good of the collective over the interests of the individual, government-run education, expansion of the welfare state, and ultimate government control of everything.

None of those are rightwing ideologies.

(Anyone who says otherwise is, apparently, in denial.)

So, these guys are left-wingers, right Chip?

Coeur d’Alene resident Jerald O’Brien, who has a large swastika tattoo on his scalp, is one of the leaders of the white supremacist group and said he expects membership to grow because of the election of President Barack Obama.
He told The Spokesman-Review newspaper that the president is the “greatest recruiting tool ever.”
Residents of a Coeur d’Alene subdivision found recruitment fliers on their lawns Friday and O’Brien said more fliers will be distributed. He said the group has “several handfuls” of members in the city.
The fliers show a young girl asking her father “Why did those dark men take mommy away?”
But many in the region reject the group.
“I saw Aryan Nations and put it in the trash,” said Garvin Jones. “What’s wrong with these people? Give me a break. I bet if you went back in their family history, not one is 100 percent white.”
The newspaper reported that most people interviewed about the fliers declined to be identified for fear of retribution.
The Aryan Nations had a compound in northern Idaho until 2000, when the group lost a $6.3 million civil judgment in favor of two people who sued after being attacked by Aryan Nations’ members.
The Kootenai County Task Force on Human Relations has fought the Aryan Nations for decades and is offering its services to anyone threatened or harassed by the group.
“It’s bound to be a small group of people trying once again to bring hate into the community,” said Tony Stewart, a spokesman for the task force. “They don’t have anywhere to operate from except a post office box.”
O’Brien said he regularly flies two white supremacist flags outside his home on the east side of the city.
The newspaper reported that its files show O’Brien marching in a neo-Nazi parade in Coeur d’Alene in July 2004 and joining in a skinhead rally that drew eight people outside the Spokane County courthouse in Spokane, Wash., in June 2007.
O’Brien said he and Michael Lombard have taken over the group following longtime leader Richard Butler, who died in 2004.
The fliers are signed “Aryan Nations, Church of Jesus Christ Christian.” O’Brien and Lombard are listed on the group’s Web site as “pastors.”

google.com

474 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:02:55pm

re: #455 Iron Fist

It’s hard to twist Obama’s position on abortion. He’s for it. Considers it to be the most protected civil right we have. Has said that he will appoint judges (and attorney generals) who feel the same way.

This guy is just being rather graphic about what that really means.

No argument there, he is pro choice. The charges that he supports killing baby’s born alive is ridiculous.

475 hacker  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:03:05pm

re: #463 Cato the Elder

re: #463 Cato the Elder

Mislaid your dictionary again?

Uh, no.

Tautology = true for all variables.

476 tryptic67  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:03:16pm

re: #462 funky chicken

… or they don’t have anything to base it on, but it certainly made good political theater when they released it …

(and, yes, I know it wasn’t supposed to be released to the public. Right. If that is the case, how did we get our hands on the left wing radicalism counterpart … wasn’t it supposed to be TOP SECRET too?)

477 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:04:03pm

re: #469 Fred72

Thanks for pointing this out. I would have, if you hadn’t.

To amplify your point… I think it’s apparent that much of the left-wing shrieking and hair-pulling during the Bush years was not based on stuff that Bush actually said or believed, but stuff that left-wing blogs and groups extrapolated (or simply invented) and turned into rallying cries.

YW. I think it’s important to notice the qualifiers in the report instead of exploiting and cherry picking the groups mentioned in the DHS report. It’s odd yet expected to see the reversal of roles now that we have a new administration. The rallying cries will get more shrill in the coming years. That is unfortunate.

478 hacker  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:04:47pm

re: #470 Charles

Another person who hasn’t read the report, but still feels qualified to express negative opinions about it.

Thanks for clarifying.

It’s a meta thing. I was addressing your comment only, with the proper qualification.

479 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:05:13pm

re: #464 avanti

Sure, he voted no. The bill in question was a definition bill that did nothing to protect the rights of a fetus. Viable fetuses were, and still are protected under law. The bill was just a back door attempt to undermine the right of choice.

link.

Well it took you long enough. This woman can attribute any intent that she wants , but the language in the bill was directed toward surviving infants of botched abortions.
The trigger episode took place at Christ Hospital, outside Chicago.
Christ is an Abortion mill & part of that Advocate system, which the Obamas had a financial interest in according to the Chicago Tribune.
The infant in question was placed in a storage room to die. A nurse went in & cradled the baby for 45 minutes until it died.
Your hero was the only Senator, the only one not to support the bill.

480 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:06:57pm

re: #354 GlockNspell

that hits the nail on the head - the far right conservatives CANT debate anymore cuz their platforms of right-2-life, creationism, imperialistic wars in the middle east, abandoning education and social asistance, and deporting 20 million people from this country are completely out of touch with the majjority of americans - so they resort to the extremism.

Spoken like a true far-leftist.

Oh, by the way, the majority of Americans are opposed to abortion. Creationism is a marginal issue, and certainly not a Litmus issue for conservative voters. Describing the Iraq war as “imperialistic” is, well, just left-wing nutter. As was evidenced by the more than half-million people who exercised their First-Amendment rights against ridiculous expansion of government spending at the expense of overburdening the average taxpayer, “education” and “social assistance” spending are very much relevant. And those 20 million people are here illegally, and the standing law says that they are to be deported; what’s wrong with living according to the rule of law?

Oh, and holding all of those beliefs does not make one inherently prone to “resort to the extremism”.

481 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:07:46pm

re: #451 tryptic67

So the reason I can’t even get .22LR on Ammoman.com anymore is because…because…all the squirrel hunters are overwhelmed by the Canadian Squirrel Invasion?

The right-wing nuts are gearing up for what they see as the coming commie gun-grab. Which will happen the day after the Greek Kalends. Mark it down in your yearly planner.

Pay attention.

And yes, I’m a gun owner, no I don’t hate conservatives, and maybe I’m for a little more sanity and a lot less chin-dribbling conspiracy theories by the eternal end-timers.

482 NukeAtomrod  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:08:06pm

re: #445 Oh no…Sand People!

I take these five forms of Government and just put them in a circle from left to right…with both ends converging together… In my opinion…

That is an excellent video. It covers my concerns about this topic. Unfortunately, I doubt the writers of the DHS report on Right-Wing Extremists or the general public are aware of what is explained in the video.

483 SixDegrees  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:08:22pm

re: #452 chipbennett

Note, the Leftwing Extremism report explicitly defines leftwing extremists as specific groups with a proclivity of criminal and violent actions; further, it references actual acts of violence committed by such groups as well as those groups’ stated intent to continue to carry out such acts.

Now compare and contrast with the Rightwing Extremist report.

Uh - it does all those same things.

484 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:08:37pm
485 Immolate  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:09:45pm

re: #413 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Do something relaxing — pet the dog or wok the cat.

Wok the cat? Do you have a recipe?

486 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:11:18pm

re: #361 VegasRick

I respectfully disagree. I do not trust this administration.

A very long line is forming of people that I do not trust. They are not only in this administration.

487 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:11:28pm

re: #475 hacker

re: #463 Cato the Elder

Uh, no.

Tautology = true for all variables.

You must use a different dictionary.

488 tangerinesong  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:11:59pm

Charles,

This report disparages moderate conservatives no matter how one performs the post mortem on the document.

I see you’re now kicking folks off who have taken the time to participate in good faith and in good spirit on your site that should be embraced and not dispatched to Black Helicopter territory. It’s insulting and not necessary but it is your site. Not everyone interprets the same material the way you do? I’m convinced if you were named personally in this report you’d give Napolitano a pass and I’m quite sure your name is on some report or list anyway in Napolitano’s office. This could be the reason for this.

I didn’t read anything in this DHS report about Jamaat ul Fuqra and his training facilities in Delaware County and the Catskills to name just a few. I guess Fuqra’s group training would now be called “moderate left wing activity”. What’s happening in these camps would make your hair fall out and we are turning a blind eye with Fuqra’s groups operations across the US and Canada.

Do you really find it strange Charles that after 8 years of Murtha, Pelosi, Durbin, Rockefeller, et al., eviscerating our Military and its leaders as cold blooded murderers and rapists, et al., including MoveOn’s sandbag of General Petraeus after performing in such exemplary form on our behalf that we would have a touch of concern with the origination, publication, content and delivery of this DHS report?

489 Wendya  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:12:24pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

Despite what Jonah Goldberg tells you, fascism is not a leftist liberal ideology. You are a victim of historical revisionism.

Uh-huh. I guess it was just a coincidence that the American left were the ones who adored Mussolini.

Seriously, how does a dislike of capitalism and fear of the individual equate to conservatism?

490 hacker  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:14:08pm

re: #487 Cato the Elder

You must use a different dictionary.

Oh, for f’in sake. Quote your dictionary and I’ll quote mine, if it really matters.

See: oxymoron, redundancy, tautology

491 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:16:13pm

re: #484 Iron Fist

That depends on the definition of “born”, really. AFIK, Obama thinks partial-birth abortions are just fine. A protected right. As a practical matter, I question the difference between a partial-birth abortion (a procedure that Daniel Patrick Moynahan likened to “infanticide”. And Moynahan was a Liberal’s Liberal) and waiting a few seconds and popping the kid with w .22.

I’m not going to argue the pro choice position on a right wing forum. I will say I’m opposed to late term abortions except in extreme circumstances like life of the mother, or a fetus with only a brain stem for example.

492 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:16:44pm

re: #395 funky chicken

LOL 8 people. What a bunch of hard core losers.

But they are still disgusting, and tragically advertise themselves as right wing, which, yes, makes them right wing extremists.

Just because they advertise themselves as “right wing” doesn’t make it true. Their socialist beliefs make them rather squarely left wing.

493 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:18:20pm

re: #488 tangerinesong

Registered since: Jul 8, 2006 at 3:00 pm
No. of comments posted: 8
No. of links posted: 0

494 day734380  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:19:19pm

Reject the crazies no matter the political persuasion; as these groups are
always the poison of society… The valuable response would be to request a list of these groups; so that such democratic expressions (as tea parties) are protected…

Granted, the timing and lack of social grace by the DHS, leaves a lot to be desired… Any valuable change is society, should refute violence… And go the extra mile to promote your group, as one of peace… Even if you don’t think it is should be necessary… It is.

495 opnion  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:19:58pm

re: #491 avanti

I’m not going to argue the pro choice position on a right wing forum. I will say I’m opposed to late term abortions except in extreme circumstances like life of the mother, or a fetus with only a brain stem for example.

Avanti, we were talking about the denial of medical care to a fully born American citizen, an actual human being in full.

496 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:20:14pm

re: #488 tangerinesong

I didn’t read anything in this DHS report about Jamaat ul Fuqra and his training facilities in Delaware County and the Catskills to name just a few. I guess Fuqra’s group training would now be called “moderate left wing activity”. What’s happening in these camps would make your hair fall out and we are turning a blind eye with Fuqra’s groups operations across the US and Canada.

That story is completely bogus, promoted by the Christian Action Network, an offshoot of Jerry Falwell’s organization, but even more extreme. The FBI has stated that they have absolutely no evidence that there is any kind of “training camp” at that place.

It’s false.

497 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:21:08pm

re: #411 Oh no…Sand People!

Salesmen: “See Mr. Customer this widget3000 does many things. It does your dishes, grates your cheese, and mows your lawn.”

*Customer’s eyes mist over in thought*

Mr. Customer: “Wow! That must mean it can do laundry too, fix my t.v., and take out the trash…”

Salesmen: [silent]

Customer: “I’ll take it!”

You paint the picture to be as much truth as possible and then leave out a quarter of it or don’t even discuss negatives. Let the ‘Mr. Customer’ fill in the ‘missing’ pieces with their own assumptions…regardless of right or wrong.

Now that is the sign of a great salesmen. :)

Salesman: DHS
Customer: Maryland National Guard

498 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:21:32pm

re: #488 tangerinesong

I see you’re now kicking folks off who have taken the time to participate in good faith and in good spirit on your site that should be embraced and not dispatched to Black Helicopter territory.

People get banned for being insulting jerks, not for disagreeing. There’s plenty of disagreement on this subject.

499 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:22:58pm

re: #414 avanti

Look, just disagreeing with a person does not necessarily indicate political bias, it could indicate the guy was just wrong. In this case, he misrepresented both the DHS report and the POTUS’s abortion stand. I feel falsely accusing the POTUS of supporting infanticide is dangerous.

Given Obama’s vote against Illinois’ Born Alive Infant Act, I don’t think his views on abortion have been misrepresented in the slightest.

500 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:25:19pm

re: #490 hacker

Oh, for f’in sake. Quote your dictionary and I’ll quote mine, if it really matters.

See: oxymoron, redundancy, tautology

So “small” and “percentage” mean the same thing? Right. You’re a genius.

501 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:26:40pm

re: #426 Cato the Elder

I call bullshit. You link to the DHS site on fusion centers, but your text comes from somewhere else. Source, please?

I’m pretty sure no fusion center anywhere issues reports that read like “you know you’re a redneck when…” jokes.

And MIAC? Link? A “government collective”?

What freeper site did you get all this from?

Then you didn’t read the MIAC report, which was in fact so hyperbolic and over-generalized that Missouri rescinded the report and re-assigned to person responsible for its issuance.

(It also bears striking resemblance to the DHS report, and has likely led to much of the outrage expressed by the latter.)

502 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:31:31pm

re: #501 chipbennett

Then you didn’t read the MIAC report, which was in fact so hyperbolic and over-generalized that Missouri rescinded the report and re-assigned to person responsible for its issuance.

(It also bears striking resemblance to the DHS report, and has likely led to much of the outrage expressed by the latter.)

Maybe. Links would be nice.

And the DHS fusion center quote - I’d love to see where he got that. But Mad King seems to be back catching imaginary flies again, so I doubt I will. Still calling bullshit on that one.

“If you’re an anti-abortion activist, or if you display political paraphernalia supporting a third-party candidate or a certain Republican member of Congress, if you possess subversive literature, you very well might be a member of a domestic paramilitary group.”

Uh-huh.

503 dkorta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:31:48pm

Has everyone already forgotten the comedy of media errors surrounding the Beltway Snipers? The angry white male acting alone theory? And this shortly after 911? It would seem to indicate evidence of ingrained media bias which doesn’t need to be further reinforced by documents such as the DHS report.

Frankly, I’m more concerned about people who 20 years ago would have been considered hard-core leftist radicals that are now sitting at the controls of the Federal Government than I am about Grandpa and his exploding golf balls.

504 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:32:22pm

re: #454 Erik The Red

Hitler was about killing the Jews and making an Aryan race.

Indeed he was. Which of those ideals is right-wing?

That said, he was also “for” all of the thing listed, according to his own party’s 25-point program.

I know the truth can hurt, but it remains true: the Nazis were socialists.

505 hacker  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:34:36pm

re: #500 Cato the Elder

So “small” and “percentage” mean the same thing? Right. You’re a genius.

OK, I’m not going to insult you, or go back and read your comments and figure you out.

Any event that is possible is a member of the set of events that happen. The set of events that rarely happen are a subset of the total events.

To say that an event that can happen, however rarely, can happen, is a tautology. Anything else?

506 avanti  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:35:33pm

re: #495 opnion

Avanti, we were talking about the denial of medical care to a fully born American citizen, an actual human being in full.

It was, and is against the law in Illinois to deny care to a fetus capable of survival outside the womb. I have no idea what “fully born” means, it could be a 10 week miscarriage.

507 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:37:21pm

re: #473 funky chicken

[Link: www.google.com…]

First, racism isn’t inherently left or right wing.

Second, if the group is Nazi (neo or otherwise), it is socialist, and therefore, left wing.

508 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:41:38pm

re: #483 SixDegrees

Uh - it does all those same things.

Please, try reading the report.

Allow me to quote the Rightwing Extremism report’s “definition” of “rightwing extremism”:

Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely. It may include groups and individuals that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to abortion or immigration.

So, where are the explicit references to specific groups (by name), the criterion that rightwing extremists have a proclivity toward criminal/violent acts, etc?

You were saying?

509 tom from pv  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:42:18pm

re: #480 chipbennett

As was evidenced by the more than half-million people who exercised their First-Amendment rights against ridiculous expansion of government spending at the expense of overburdening the average taxpayer, “education” and “social assistance” spending are very much relevant. And those 20 million people are here illegally, and the standing law says that they are to be deported; what’s wrong with living according to the rule of law?

Well said. I noticed your “karma” score is even lower than mine. Maybe that should be the indicator for right-wing (karma0)? I wear my -37 as a badge of courage!

For those whose “karma” approaches the limits set by a 16-bit integer, maybe those are the extremists?

Anyway, well said. What IS wrong with living according to the rule of law? ALL laws, to be exact.

510 deportman  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:42:57pm

OK, OK, OK, so only stories about right-wing kooks get play to highlight the timeliness of the DHS report. In the first story, please define “sniper rifle”. The MSM won’t highlight any type of left-wing domestic terrorists or “extremist” groups because it doesn’t fit into their playbook.

511 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:46:53pm

re: #488 tangerinesong

This report disparages moderate conservatives no matter how one performs the post mortem on the document.

(assuming you’re referring to the original, unaltered, document …)
BULLSHIT!

512 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:47:18pm

re: #502 Cato the Elder

Maybe. Links would be nice.

And the DHS fusion center quote - I’d love to see where he got that. But Mad King seems to be back catching imaginary flies again, so I doubt I will. Still calling bullshit on that one.

“If you’re an anti-abortion activist, or if you display political paraphernalia supporting a third-party candidate or a certain Republican member of Congress, if you possess subversive literature, you very well might be a member of a domestic paramilitary group.”

Uh-huh.

I covered the MIAC report in depth. If you’re truly interested, head over to my blog and read to your heart’s content:

MIAC Report
Report Rescinded

513 tryptic67  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:49:34pm

re: #481 Cato the Elder

What’s your point, again, Cato?

I’m a “chin dribbler” because it’s so outside the scope of believability that a government agency would time a report for release to undermine a political movement that the agency’s boss and her boss don’t like? If you believe that, my inbox is flooded with a number of very high-end, can’t miss Nigerian investment opportunities that I will be happy to forward to you.

Your allusion to the huge buy-ups in ammo and weapons is a bit of a non-sequitur in responding to my post. Where does it fit, other than you’re trying to be insulting and smug at the same time? Why not debate the I was making point?

In any event, since you’re so historically-minded and all that (what with your recenty absolute certainty about what IHS means and all that), here are a couple of examples of other instances in U.S. history that show the purity of the government’s allegiance to the constitution, that “sane” people like yourself can look back on with a measure of pride: example one example two . I mean those kinds of things don’t happen, do they?

Note: I still have the same old 12 gauge and same old box of shells I’ve had since before the ‘00 election. Maybe I should be wondering why you’re buying 22LR ammo? Hmmm?

514 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:51:07pm

re: #511 pre-Boomer Marine brat

This report disparages moderate conservatives no matter how one performs the post mortem on the document.

(assuming you’re referring to the original, unaltered, document …)
BULLSHIT!

I’ve seen the allegation that the report has been altered thrown around quite a bit; however, I’ve yet to see anyone outline any such alterations - material or otherwise - in the report’s content.

So, what are the alterations?

515 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:55:03pm

re: #509 tom from pv

Well said. I noticed your “karma” score is even lower than mine. Maybe that should be the indicator for right-wing (karma0)? I wear my -37 as a badge of courage!

For those whose “karma” approaches the limits set by a 16-bit integer, maybe those are the extremists?

Anyway, well said. What IS wrong with living according to the rule of law? ALL laws, to be exact.

Karma? Meh. I argue my viewpoint, and try to stay respectful in doing so. I really couldn’t care less if others click a “-” on my comments just because they don’t like what I have to say.

516 NelsFree  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:58:13pm

re: #260 buzzsawmonkey

It seems to be kind of like a keffiyah that is worn with pride. A “banned-anaanal,” if you will.


/FTFY

517 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 1:59:12pm

re: #507 chipbennett

…if the group is Nazi (neo or otherwise), it is socialist, and therefore, left wing.

National Socialism is not a left wing ideology.

518 funky chicken  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:00:49pm

re: #496 Charles

That story is completely bogus, promoted by the Christian Action Network, an offshoot of Jerry Falwell’s organization, but even more extreme. The FBI has stated that they have absolutely no evidence that there is any kind of “training camp” at that place.

It’s false.

I would love to have a link about that. I just assumed it was true, since J al F is a known Islamist/Black Muslim group that recruits in prisons.

I figured it was a Muslim Ruby Ridge survivalist thing?

519 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:01:52pm

re: #517 Charles

National Socialism is not a left wing ideology.

Are you ever going to address the actual, socialist tenets from the Nazi party’s 25-point program? Do I need to quote them again?

National Socialism was very much leftwing ideology, because it very much was socialist.

Of course, responding with “Nazis were not socialists” and “National Socialism is not a left wing ideology” ad nauseum really doesn’t progress the discussion much.

520 Seagreenroom  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:06:11pm

re: #503 dkorta


Frankly, I’m more concerned about people who 20 years ago would have been considered hard-core leftist radicals that are now sitting at the controls of the Federal Government than I am about Grandpa and his exploding golf balls.

That would describe “O“‘s team almost in its entirety.

The delinquents are running the detention center at this point.

521 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:10:59pm

re: #519 chipbennett

National Socialism is neither socialist nor left wing.

522 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:16:22pm

re: #521 Charles

National Socialism is neither socialist nor left wing.

So, your answer then is, no, you’re not going to address the socialist tenets of the Nazi party’s 25-point program?

So you think that nationalization of industry and finance, expansion of the welfare state, expansion of government control of education, government control of the press, putting the needs of the collective ahead of the needs/wants of the individual, and establishment of ultimate government control are rightwing ideologies?

Are you really saying that? Or are you intentionally ignoring that the Nazi party held to all of these ideologies?

523 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:18:45pm

re: #521 Charles

National Socialism is neither socialist nor left wing.

Thank you! See my comment on the next thread.

524 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:19:12pm

All of Hitler’s alliances were with the right wing. After World War One, he joined the right-wing Bavarian German Workers’ Party, which then changed its name to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Hitler then worked to assimilate other far right German parties, eventually being appointed chancellor precisely because he was so successful at this.

The National Socialist party started as a right wing organization, and had almost nothing in common with socialist left wing parties. These are things known as “facts.”

525 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:23:16pm

re: #524 Charles

All of Hitler’s alliances were with the right wing. After World War One, he joined the right-wing Bavarian German Workers’ Party, which then changed its name to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Hitler then worked to assimilate other far right German parties, eventually being appointed chancellor precisely because he was so successful at this.

The National Socialist party started as a right wing organization, and had almost nothing in common with socialist left wing parties. These are things known as “facts.”

o you think that nationalization of industry and finance, expansion of the welfare state, expansion of government control of education, government control of the press, putting the needs of the collective ahead of the needs/wants of the individual, and establishment of ultimate government control are rightwing ideologies?

Are you really saying that? Or are you intentionally ignoring that the Nazi party held to all of these ideologies?

That the Nazi party held to those ideologies is also something known as a fact. There is absolutely nothing right-wing about those ideologies.

526 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:26:04pm
527 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:26:43pm

National Socialism, as applied to Nazism and neo-Nazism, is NOT a left wing ideology, and it is NOT socialism. Socialism promotes a classless society — Nazism is rigidly class-oriented and deeply racist. Socialism promotes redistribution of wealth — Nazism consolidated wealth into the hands of big industrialists and bankers. Socialism promotes the end of national states — Nazism was the ultimate patriotic/nationalistic society.

I could go on. The idea that National Socialism was equivalent to Marxism is ludicrous and wrong. This was and is a right wing ideology to its core.

528 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:27:38pm

re: #526 tangerinesong

Piss off.

529 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:30:17pm

re: #527 Charles

National Socialism, as applied to Nazism and neo-Nazism, is NOT a left wing ideology, and it is NOT socialism. Socialism promotes a classless society — Nazism is rigidly class-oriented and deeply racist. Socialism promotes redistribution of wealth — Nazism consolidated wealth into the hands of big industrialists and bankers. Socialism promotes the end of national states — Nazism was the ultimate patriotic/nationalistic society.

I could go on. The idea that National Socialism was equivalent to Marxism is ludicrous and wrong. This was and is a right wing ideology to its core.

These points were already addressed in the first thread in which you posted them. At least those who disagree with you had the decency to address each of these points that you’ve raised.

You’ve still failed to address the socialist ideologies of the Nazi party found in the party’s 25-point program.

530 J.S.  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:31:01pm

re: #525 chipbennett

why were the Nazis opposed to Communism? why did they hunt out and murder Communists? The nazis did not care about “equality” or redistributing the wealth in equal portions — they were adamantly opposed to that.

531 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:34:00pm

re: #530 J.S.

why were the Nazis opposed to Communism? why did they hunt out and murder Communists? The nazis did not care about “equality” or redistributing the wealth in equal portions — they were adamantly opposed to that.

As was pointed out in the previous thread, the Nazis and Communists warred with each other because they were vying for the same pool of believers. Their wars were not ideological. Also, socialism != communism.

532 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:34:39pm

re: #513 tryptic67

What’s your point, again, Cato?

I’m a “chin dribbler” because it’s so outside the scope of believability that a government agency would time a report for release to undermine a political movement that the agency’s boss and her boss don’t like? If you believe that, my inbox is flooded with a number of very high-end, can’t miss Nigerian investment opportunities that I will be happy to forward to you.

Your allusion to the huge buy-ups in ammo and weapons is a bit of a non-sequitur in responding to my post. Where does it fit, other than you’re trying to be insulting and smug at the same time? Why not debate the I was making point?

In any event, since you’re so historically-minded and all that (what with your recenty absolute certainty about what IHS means and all that), here are a couple of examples of other instances in U.S. history that show the purity of the government’s allegiance to the constitution, that “sane” people like yourself can look back on with a measure of pride: example one example two . I mean those kinds of things don’t happen, do they?

Note: I still have the same old 12 gauge and same old box of shells I’ve had since before the ‘00 election. Maybe I should be wondering why you’re buying 22LR ammo? Hmmm?

What exactly was the “you was making point”?

If you choose to apply the “chin-dribbling” part to yourself, that’s your affair. Wasn’t referring to you. But if the chin dribbles, wipe it. And all that.

The ammo sell-out is relevant because you claim the right-wing loons are a spent force. Somehow I don’t think it’s the Big Scrotum Guy and his friends with the giant puppets who are getting ready for the black helicopter invasion.

I learned something about IHS, admitted I was wrong and apologized. Will you do that when the expected clampdown on anyone who disagrees with Obama fails to materialize?

As for that inbox problem, there are things known as spam filters. You should check it out.

533 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:34:45pm

re: #530 J.S.

why were the Nazis opposed to Communism? why did they hunt out and murder Communists? The nazis did not care about “equality” or redistributing the wealth in equal portions — they were adamantly opposed to that.

It’s pointless to try to argue with this one. He’s a true believer that there’s no such thing as “right wing extremism.” He won’t even admit that most militias and Christian Identity are “right wing.”

534 LeonidasOfSparta  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:36:30pm

PJMedia blog author questions the term “RIGHT-WING extremism” :

pajamasmedia.com

April 19, 2009 - by John Rosenthal Page 1 of 2
“Numerous commentators have noted the extreme flimsiness of the DHS “rightwing-extremism” report. How seriously, after all, can one take a report on the ostensible threat of violent “right-wing extremism” that begins by admitting that it has no “specific information” to support the conclusion that the threat in question even exists? The alleged “resurgence” of “right-wing extremism” announced in the title turns out to be a matter of pure speculation, based on factors whose actual effects on “extreme” right-wing “radicalization and recruitment” are not substantiated with a single piece of concrete evidence. As Michelle Malkin has pointed out, in marked contrast to earlier DHS reports on, for instance, radical environmentalist groups, the “right-wing extremism” report fails even to name any ostensibly “right-wing extremist” groups.
But perhaps the most puzzling aspect of the DHS “right-wing extremist” report is the very use of the expression “right-wing extremism.”

Worth reading the whole article….

535 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:38:49pm

re: #534 LeonidasOfSparta

Wonderful. Let’s all argue that there’s no such thing as “right wing extremism.”

Now there’s a winning strategy!

536 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:41:11pm

re: #505 hacker

OK, I’m not going to insult you, or go back and read your comments and figure you out.

Any event that is possible is a member of the set of events that happen. The set of events that rarely happen are a subset of the total events.

To say that an event that can happen, however rarely, can happen, is a tautology. Anything else?

You said: ‘A “small percentage” is not only not an identifiable group, it is basically a tautology.’

Didn’t see all that other fancy stuff you say you meant. Guess my ESP is off today.

537 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:42:18pm

re: #533 Charles

It’s pointless to try to argue with this one. He’s a true believer that there’s no such thing as “right wing extremism.” He won’t even admit that most militias and Christian Identity are “right wing.”

Now who’s exhibiting distortion?

To say that I am a “true believer that there’s no such thing as ‘right wing extremism’” is an outright lie. Allow me to quote myself from the previous thread:

Right-wing extremism certainly exists, just as left-wing extremists exists.

Since the principle right-left spectrum is smaller government/power of the individual versus larger government/power of the collective, it follows that the extreme right-wing position would be no government/individual as ultimate authority, and that the extreme left-wing position would be maximumgovernment/state as the ultimate authority.

Right-wing extremist groups? Not so much. Rightwing extremism tends toward the lone wolf, rather than formal organization. However, one could make the argument in some cases. For instance, the wackos who attempt to claim sovereignty from the U.S. legal system (the ones who claim the U.S. has no jurisdiction in levying taxes, license fees, etc.) would aptly be labeled as having an extremist right-wing view.

Do right-wing extremists exist? Absolutely. In my opinion, right-wing extremists tend to be of the “vigilante justice” types (as opposed to the left-wing, anti-government/pro-chaos (think Bill Ayers) left-wing extremists). Anti-abortion bombers (think Eric Rudolph) would fall in this category.

(Note: Timothy McVeigh much more closely resembles Bill Ayers than he does Eric Rudolph.)

My primary disagreement is with lumping in white supremacists as “right-wing” extremists, when they tend not to hold any right-wing beliefs, at all.

It seems that you have left out more than a small percentage of my viewpoint in your distortion of my views, Charles.

Further, I have never - not once - said that militias are not “right wing”; rather, I said that I dispute that they are inherently extremist.

Again, you rather significantly distort my views.

On the matter of Christian Identity, I asked what was right-wing about their beliefs. They are racists, to be sure - but racism does not a rightwinger make.

For one who often accuses others of distortion, perhaps you should take your own advice.

538 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:46:29pm

re: #537 chipbennett

You’re correct. You have admitted that abortion clinic bombers are right wing extremists.

You just deny everything else.

539 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:46:46pm

re: #512 chipbennett

I covered the MIAC report in depth. If you’re truly interested, head over to my blog and read to your heart’s content:

MIAC Report
Report Rescinded

Can you source Mad King’s special quote for me? From the actual DHS fusion center document? Not from a secondary source or a quote in some other document? I’d be grateful. He doesn’t seem to be listening. Or maybe he’s just one of those guys who bring on the scary and expect us to rush out and join the nearest militia.

540 Jimmah  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:47:14pm

We are deeply into “no true Scotsman” territory here.

541 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:48:51pm

re: #540 Jimmah

We are deeply into “no true Scotsman” territory here.

Truly.

542 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:49:24pm

re: #540 Jimmah

We are deeply into “no true Scotsman” territory here.

Indeed.

543 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:49:37pm

re: #539 Cato the Elder

Can you source Mad King’s special quote for me? From the actual DHS fusion center document? Not from a secondary source or a quote in some other document? I’d be grateful. He doesn’t seem to be listening. Or maybe he’s just one of those guys who bring on the scary and expect us to rush out and join the nearest militia.

The MIAC report is the DHS fusion center document, as the MIAC is the DHS fusion center in question.

You can see the actual report, linked as a PDF scan, in my blog post.

To be sure, Mad King wasn’t quoting verbatim; however, it wasn’t nearly as hyperbolic as one might think. Go have a read for yourself. The MIAC report was significantly worse than the DHS report, with respect to profiling based upon socio-political ideology and expression of first-amendment rights.

544 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 2:54:04pm

re: #538 Charles

You’re correct. You have admitted that abortion clinic bombers are right wing extremists.

You just deny everything else.

No, I don’t deny “everything else”. As I’ve said, I agree that most militias are right wing.

I do deny that militias are inherently extremist.

We seem to have an impassable disagreement regarding whether or not Nazis adhere to socialist, therefore leftwing, ideology.

I also deny that racism is an inherently right wing ideology - in fact, I deny that racism is a right or left wing ideology.

I get the impression that many commenters believe that white supremacists are rightwing extremists simply because of their racist beliefs.

Why do you choose to paint me with such a broad brush?

545 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:01:24pm

re: #543 chipbennett

The MIAC report is the DHS fusion center document, as the MIAC is the DHS fusion center in question.

You can see the actual report, linked as a PDF scan, in my blog post.

To be sure, Mad King wasn’t quoting verbatim; however, it wasn’t nearly as hyperbolic as one might think. Go have a read for yourself. The MIAC report was significantly worse than the DHS report, with respect to profiling based upon socio-political ideology and expression of first-amendment rights.

The Mad King presented his drive-by comment as quoting from the actual document.

He was lying.

Oh, but that’s what it all boiled down to, right? You like a Republican congressman, you’re a potential extremist?

Wrong.

He was engaging in dishonest propaganda.

Since you’ve blogged extensively about the report, maybe you’d like to present us with some verbatim scariness so we can see for ourselves? Not everyone has the time to wade through the garbage.

Just be prepared to have folks fact-check your ass. No one’s really big on “take my word for it” around here these days.

546 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:04:11pm

re: #533 Charles

It’s pointless to try to argue with this one. He’s a true believer that there’s no such thing as “right wing extremism.” He won’t even admit that most militias and Christian Identity are “right wing.”

One of the reasons for this current phenomenon of assessing Nazism as left-wing may be attributable to Johah Goldberg’s “Liberal Faciscm.” I was able to find an interview in which we find:

What’s the book about?

It’s a revisionist history. It’s an attempt to reconfigure, or I would say correct, the standard understanding of the political and ideological context that frames most of the ideological debates that we have had since, basically, World War II. There’s this idea that the further right you go the closer you get to Nazism and fascism, and the further left you go the closer you get to decency and all good things, or at least having the right intentions in your heart.

He admits that it’s a revisionist history. He goes further to say he is correcting the history of Nazism to it’s “rightful” place as a left-wing ideology. He does so because he believes that all things right-wing are perceived as bad while all things left-wing are perceived as good. Of course this is not the case since both extremist cases are detrimental to a democratic society.

I would venture to guess that Goldberg is attempting to reverse this perception by adding Nazism to the left-wing only to add further evidence to his conclusion that everything on the left-wing of the political spectrum is inherently negative and in fact fascist.

One could use Goldberg’s own words and assume his conclusion would be: the further right you go the closer you get to decency and all good things, or at least having the right intentions in your heart. In a rather bizarre twist he goes on to compare the American left’s take on Terry Schiavo not being unlike Nazi’s acceptance of euthanasia during WWII.

A similar argument could be made by the left by trying to distance themselves from Chairman Mao by revising history to paint him as a right-wing ideologist by cherry picking his tenants that may in fact fit into a right-wing category.

547 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:06:16pm

re: #546 Gus 802

One of the reasons for this current phenomenon of assessing Nazism as left-wing may be attributable to Johah Goldberg’s “Liberal Faciscm.”

Actually, I was challenging my Social Studies teacher on this point back in my sophomore or junior year of high school, 15 years ago.

548 Jimmah  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:08:31pm

re: #544 chipbennett

I also deny that racism is an inherently right wing ideology - in fact, I deny that racism is a right or left wing ideology.

I get the impression that many commenters believe that white supremacists are rightwing extremists simply because of their racist beliefs.

There is a kind of racism that some on the extreme left display. But it is very different to and very easily distinguished from right wing racism. Left wing racism is the kind that expects less in terms of behaviour of non-whites than whites and makes excuses for poor human rights records of non-white regimes citing cultural differences etc. They treat non-whites as ‘noble savages’. Right wing racism simply exudes xenophobia and open hatred of non-whites and treats them as inferior or incompatible with white people and white society.

So, anyone you see talking about ‘white power’ and ‘get the foreigners out’ etc is very clearly a right wing racist. The idea of arguing that maybe they are actually left wing is laughable.

549 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:11:25pm

re: #545 Cato the Elder

The Mad King presented his drive-by comment as quoting from the actual document.

He was lying.

Oh, but that’s what it all boiled down to, right? You like a Republican congressman, you’re a potential extremist?

Wrong.

He was engaging in dishonest propaganda.

Since you’ve blogged extensively about the report, maybe you’d like to present us with some verbatim scariness so we can see for ourselves? Not everyone has the time to wade through the garbage.

Just be prepared to have folks fact-check your ass. No one’s really big on “take my word for it” around here these days.

Actually, the MIAC report specifically identified support for certain third-party candidates as being a potential indicator of extremism.

Here is what I quoted from the MIAC report:

Political Paraphernalia: Militia members most commonly associate with 3rd party political groups. It is not uncommon for militia members to display Constitutional Party, Campaign for Liberty, or Libertarian material. These members are usually supporters of former Presidential Candidate: Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr.

Anti-Government Propaganda: Militia members commonly display picture, cartoons, bumper stickers taht contain anti-government rhetoric. Most of this material will depict the FRS, IRS, FBI, ATF, CIA, UN, Law Enforcement, and “The New World Order” in a derogatory manor (sic). Additionally, Racial, anti-immigration, and anti-abortion, material may be displayed by militia members.

Militia Symbols: Gadsden Flag [ed: “Don’t Tread On Me”]: created by General Christopher Gadsden and utilized in colonial America. This is the most common symbol displayed by militia members and organizations.

Literature and Media Common to the Militia: Zeitgeist the Movie and America: Freedom to Fascism.

Bear in mind: the report had already gone to great lengths to establish that “militia” = “extremist”.

Feel free to fact-check all you wish. I linked the actual report. I have nothing to hide, and have made no attempts to distort anything from the report.

550 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:14:15pm

re: #549 chipbennett

Actually, the MIAC report specifically identified support for certain third-party candidates as being a potential indicator of extremism.

Exactly backwards. That section you quoted says that militia members often associate with third party groups. It did NOT say that association with third party groups is an indicator of extremism.

551 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:14:46pm

re: #549 chipbennett

Are you a member of a militia?

552 Gus  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:15:27pm

Sure enough I found one that flip the coin:

Totalitarian Communism Was as Right Wing as Hitler

Be forewarned there is some rather far-out conclusions at this link including associating Stalin with former President Bush.

553 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:17:05pm

re: #551 Charles

Are you a member of a militia?

Nope. Not even a gun owner.

I still respect their right of free assembly, though.

554 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:18:50pm

re: #550 Charles

Exactly backwards. That section you quoted says that militia members often associate with third party groups. It did NOT say that association with third party groups is an indicator of extremism.

Funny, Missouri’s Governor and Lt. Governor disagree with your assessment; in fact, they disagree to the extent that they had the report rescinded, and the person responsible for its release reassigned.

And, oddly enough, the the three political candidates specifically mentioned also disagreed with your assessment.

555 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:29:31pm

re: #82 tom from pv

But Penguin, nowhere in your two quotes is the term “right winger”?

I presume you think that if someone wants to kill a Democrat, they must be “right wing”. There is no need to actually PROVE the point, alls you got to do is accept it, like the gospel.

And anyone who thinks that maybe the would-be assassin is just a mean, vicious, SOB is a “denier”.

OK, that means Al Capone was another “right winger” - he routinely threatened politicians in Chicago in the 30s, who were generally Democrats. Sirhan Sirhan, “right winger”. The muslim who shot the pope, “right winger”. The list is long when you have a built-in assumption that can’t be challenged!

Umm, Islamofascists are rightwingers by definition, because fascism is right wing. That’s why they call them IslamoFASCISTS. They wanna control other peoples’ lives, just like communists do, because both of them are different vesions of collectivism, which claims the supermacy of the group over the individual. The socons who wanna intrude the government into peoples’ private lives are waay different in degree from the fataw-issuing mullahs, but not so much in essence.

556 rick554  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:31:36pm

Somehow I dont think that when DHS doe its Left-wing extremist “assessment” Bill Ayers, Bernadette Dohrn and Liberation theologist Jeremiah Wright wont be mentioned at all.
They are going to do an “assessment” right?

557 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:36:31pm

re: #109 madeindetroit

Are you saying then, that the quoted example of Eric Rudolph, a violent anti-abortionist, is not in the document? Or are you saying that using Eric Rudolph as the only stated example of an anti-abortionist does not suggest that some anti-abortionists could become violent?

Some antiabortionists HAVE become violent. Two of them shot three people dead and wounded another in my hometown. Do the names Michael Griffin and Paul Hill ring any bells? And there have been other antiabortion assassins, and plenty of antiabortion firebombers. There wer six clinic firebombings in my hometown alone; google Matthew Goldsby.

558 Render  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:38:38pm

politicalcompass.org

WATCHMAN,
R

559 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:45:02pm
560 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:45:42pm

re: #201 Rancher

It is interesting that the same bunch who didn’t like using the words “jihadist” and “Islamofascist” for fear of offending Muslims throw the term “rightwing” all over the place.

I think we should be logically consistent and employ them all. And leftwing extremist, too, of course.

561 SteveRogers  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:46:25pm

re: #231 gitarfan

Yes, the report was very poorly written, politicized and after reading it several times I can see nothing in it that would help law enforcement.

And since when is racism defined as extreme Right Wing only? There are racists in both wings and in the center. There are apolitical racists, just as there is bigots and anti-Semites in every category. These are not confined to the Right Wing, and it’s dishonest and divisive for the DHS to mention it in ther report about Right Wing Extremists only.

I do denounce the extreme Right Wing extremists this post mentions. They certainly don’t represent any Classical Liberal/Conservative principles I believe and I’m glad they were caught before they hurt or killed anyone.

The biased media and many Left Wing blogs have already taken advantage of this poorly written “assessment” to smear everyone that has Right Wing beliefs as “far Right,” “far far Right,” “radical,” and “extremist.”
Unfortunately, so have some of the Democrat representatives in Congress.

I believe that this is what has angered most Conservatives/Classic Liberals/Libertarians/Veterans, even more than the hack report itself.
By signing her name to this crappy report, Napolitano reveals much about her own non-objective thinking and biases.

And again, I saw nothing that helps law enforcement in it. Having been a cop, I know they already keep an eye out for extremists on any stripe. Specific information is always helpful, and although the Left-wing Extremist report could use some more work (inconsistancies), it was at least marginally helpful with some specifics.

562 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:53:33pm
563 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 3:54:08pm

re: #556 rick554

Somehow I dont think that when DHS doe its Left-wing extremist “assessment” Bill Ayers, Bernadette Dohrn and Liberation theologist Jeremiah Wright wont be mentioned at all.
They are going to do an “assessment” right?

Why should those people be mentioned in a threat assessment?

There was a “left wing extremist” assessment, by the way. And there was at least one “Islamic extremist” assessment too. But don’t let any of that get in the way of your seething.

564 hazzyday  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:02:56pm

IMO: A fascist is anyone who wants the state to control you making the individual subservient. And typically they denigrate the opposition with unsavory labels. A lot of the KoS falls under this category.

565 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:05:38pm

re: #524 Charles

All of Hitler’s alliances were with the right wing. After World War One, he joined the right-wing Bavarian German Workers’ Party, which then changed its name to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Hitler then worked to assimilate other far right German parties, eventually being appointed chancellor precisely because he was so successful at this.

The National Socialist party started as a right wing organization, and had almost nothing in common with socialist left wing parties. These are things known as “facts.”

The Nazis were socialist in the same way that Peoples’ Democracies are democracies.

566 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:07:26pm

re: #554 chipbennett

Funny, Missouri’s Governor and Lt. Governor disagree with your assessment; in fact, they disagree to the extent that they had the report rescinded, and the person responsible for its release reassigned.

And, oddly enough, the the three political candidates specifically mentioned also disagreed with your assessment.

That’s fine, I have no problem with them disagreeing, but they’re wrong just like you are.

Militia members most commonly associate with 3rd party political groups.

This does not say that people who associate with 3rd party groups are all militia members. It does say militia members often associate with 3rd party groups. A true statement.

It is not uncommon for militia members to display Constitutional Party, Campaign for Liberty, or Libertarian material.

This does not say that people who display Constitutional Party, Campaign for Liberty, or Libertarian material are all militia members. It does say that militia members often display Constitutional Party, Campaign for Liberty, or Libertarian material. Another true statement.

These members are usually supporters of former Presidential Candidate: Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr.

This does not say that all supporters of Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr are militia members. It does say that militia members are often supporters of Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr. Yet another true statement.

Maybe you should have spent less time arguing with your Social Studies teacher about National Socialism, and invested in a course in introductory logic.

567 hazzyday  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:07:48pm

Would right wing be characterized as “traditional”?

and left wing characterized as “change”?

568 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:15:36pm
569 Lynn  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:16:57pm

Do official government publications typically referred to ELF types, violent anti-war protestors and radical abortion rights proponents as “Left Wing Extremists?” Or do they simply specify the nature of their interests and violent tendencies? (Not trying to p*ss anyone off here, I’m really asking… .)

570 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:17:35pm

re: #568 themadking

Bye now! Take care. Sorry, but your dramatic farewell comment is deleted.

571 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:19:06pm

re: #569 Lynn

Do official government publications typically referred to ELF types, violent anti-war protestors and radical abortion rights proponents as “Left Wing Extremists?” Or do they simply specify the nature of their interests and violent tendencies? (Not trying to p*ss anyone off here, I’m really asking… .)

Yes, they do. In fact those groups are specifically named in the DHS report on “left wing extremism” that has been linked here several times. (Except the “radical abortion rights proponents,” who as far as I know have never threatened to blow up anything.)

572 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:24:09pm
573 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:27:55pm

re: #572 Iron Fist

What is somehow inherently negative about membership in a militia organization?

I didn’t say there was “something inherently negative” about it. However, you’d have to be pretty blind not to have noticed a high correlation between extreme right wing views and militia membership.

574 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:29:31pm

re: #562 Iron Fist

So fascists are “right wing” because they are like communists? I don’t disagree that fascitst are like communists mind you. They are and were. Just ask Ribbentrop or Molotov. They aren’t identical, but they persue the same goals in a general way. Communism had a more international dogma than the fascists, but even that was more of a difference in semantics than it was about principles. They both wanted to rule the world.

I addressed the historical common roots of both Communism and Fascism in three posts in another thread:

littlegreenfootballs.com

Go back to your philosophical history. Both Communism and Fascism originated in the German philosopher Hegel, but were a result of a split in his followers between Left-Hegelians and Right-Hegelians.

The Left-Hegelians reversed Hegel’s conception of the history of the human race being one of the evolution a God who had obliviously infused himself into humanity back to self-knowledge, and claimed that it was the collective evolution of the control of the material means of production, not Spirit, that defined human history. Since, unlike with religion, there was only one material science, all humans, being material, were considered to be equal, and any system that enabled some of them to live in idle luxury off the material labor of others was considered to be unjust and unfair, and in fact to be slavery.

The Right-Hegelians, on the other hand, considered the history of the human race as being the evolution of the manifestation of collective human will in the world. The individual spirit, or geist, that motivated this collective will was considered to be different for different tribes of people, and this is where Fascism’s ethnocentricity and racism came in.

Sal: I might add that the universalization aspect is what lent the Communists their international character, while the tribalization asp[ect is what lent Fascism its national character.

littlegreenfootballs.com

Both Fascism and Communism are collectivities, true, but collectivities of vastly different natures. But as collectivities, they are each opposed in their own way to individualism, as embodied in capitalist societies in general, and constitutional democracies in particular.

littlegreenfootballs.com

…They are different strains of collectivism that are opposed to the moderate individualism of constitutional democracy. There is also such a thing as extreme individualism; it is called anarchism.

575 jon_berzerk  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:46:33pm

Found another group of rightwing extremists in action
taking fire practice.

576 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:48:11pm

re: #549 chipbennett

Political Paraphernalia: Militia members most commonly associate with 3rd party political groups. [As Charles points out, this is a statement of fact, and says nothing about most third-party political groups themselves.] It is not uncommon for militia members to display Constitutional Party, Campaign for Liberty, or Libertarian material. These members are usually supporters of former Presidential Candidate: Ron Paul, Chuck Baldwin, and Bob Barr.

All of whom just happen to be bat-shit crazy.

Literature and Media Common to the Militia: Zeitgeist the Movie and America: Freedom to Fascism.

Because nothing says “we’re all normal and we want our freedom” like

Zeitgeist, the Movie […] a 2007 documentary film circulating online for free and also available on DVD. It alleges that Christianity was constructed, the September 11 events staged and the US Federal Reserve Bank created to serve as instruments in a plot for mass control.

As for America: Freedom to Fascism, they’ve picked another winner there. At points it skirts rather close to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

A quote by Mayer Amschel Rothschild is displayed:

Give me control of a nation’s money supply, and I care not who makes its laws.

The narrator in the film then states “[Rothschild] knew that he and the other bankers would now control the laws of the nation,” which gives the impression that Rothschild was involved in passing the Federal Reserve Act. The Federal Reserve Act was passed, however, in 1913; Rothschild died in 1812.

[both quotes from Wiki]

And I doubt not that you can find the Protocols themselves tucked in among the other “literature” at militia gatherings. Sort of like what you find on the tables at a Vlaams Belang shindig.

Who do you think you’re fooling?

577 crosspatch  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:53:28pm

At this rate Burning Man will soon be a right-wing militia event.

578 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 4:57:01pm

re: #577 crosspatch

At this rate Burning Man will soon be a right-wing militia event.

No, it leans more towards libertarianism, with some aspects bordering on anarchism (individualist extremism).

579 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:04:23pm
580 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:13:28pm
581 hacker  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:15:10pm

re: #536 Cato the Elder

You said: ‘A “small percentage” is not only not an identifiable group, it is basically a tautology.’

Didn’t see all that other fancy stuff you say you meant. Guess my ESP is off today.

I did not mean to be vague. A small percentage of American males will kill their families. This does happen, once or several times a month. It has happened in the last week.

Be on the lookout for American males.

An even smaller percentage of American females will do bad things to their families. Ditto.

582 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:24:51pm

re: #579 Iron Fist

I am quite aware of Hegel and dialetics, and the concept of theisis, anti-theisis and synthesis, etc. I’m quite aware that Fascism and Communism have the same intellectual roots. That is basically my point. If your political spectrum runs from Communists on the Left to National Socialist on the right, then there isn’t really any point on your scale for free-market, laissez faire capitalists. There is no place whatsoever for the work of Locke, the Bill of Rights, or any other school of political thought that isn’t ultimately Left-wing based. And, indeed, in Europe there has been little room for individualism or basic freedom for the European people as a whole.

The history of Leftism is the history of crushing individualism. That is a core belief in all the Left-wing schools of thought whether you are talking Marx or Chompsky or Hitler or Mussolini (Mussolini, BTW, wasn’t particularly focused on race so much as he was national identity and greatness). If you want to define that as the Left-Right scale, go ahead. It ignores a lot of British and American tradition to choose to do so, but a lot of what passes for scholarship today wants to ignore that tradition. In favor of more Statist doctrines.

Anarchism (real anarchism like Bakunin, not some skateboarder with an “A” tattooed on his left hand) is also a collectivist doctrine. One that wanted the smash the State as a precursor to the establisment of an “egalitarian” and decentralized dictatorship. Interestingly enough, Sandino’s (in Nicarauga) personal banner was half-black (the black flag of anarchism) and red (the red of communism) with a skull in crossbones on it.

I think of an X. Say the top left is extreme left anarchism, and the top right is extreme right (universalist) anarchism, while the bottom left is extreme left (tribalist) collectivism, and the bottom right is extreme right anarchism. Constitutional democracy would be the intersection in the middle, where individualism and collectivism are in balance, and where secularism, or at least the absence of any sectarian dogma, either political or religious, is maintained.

You might prefer a Y, and maintain that anarchism would not support any sectarian dogma, either. Bakunin, however, is not a good argument either way, since he wished to employ anarchist means for collectivist ends, rather than embrace anarchism as an end in itself.

583 SteveRogers  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:25:57pm

re: #581 hacker

I did not mean to be vague. A small percentage of American males will kill their families. This does happen, once or several times a month. It has happened in the last week.

Be on the lookout for American males.

An even smaller percentage of American females will do bad things to their families. Ditto.

Precisely. There is nothing specific or anything showing a pattern irt veterans in that report. Timothy McVeigh is not indicative of a pattern and the fact he was a veteran means nothing.
As I have said before, the vagueness and generality without specific evidence to back it up inherent in the RWE is inexcusable.

Going by that logic one could say a small percentage of chemists, or engineers, or anybody who can find that sort of information in a library or on the internet, or hollywood special effects experts may be recruited by any extremist group (Right or Left) to make bombs.
Without specific information it’s useless to say such a thing to law enforcement.

584 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:26:41pm

and the bottom right is extreme right anarchism cvollectivism.

pimf

585 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:27:27pm

re: #581 hacker

I did not mean to be vague. A small percentage of American males will kill their families. This does happen, once or several times a month. It has happened in the last week.

Be on the lookout for American males.

Another distortion. The DHS report does not say anything like “be on the lookout for all veterans.”

586 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:35:07pm

re: #581 hacker

I did not mean to be vague. A small percentage of American males will kill their families. This does happen, once or several times a month. It has happened in the last week.

Be on the lookout for American males.

An even smaller percentage of American females will do bad things to their families. Ditto.

Therefore DHS should pay no attention to anything that comes under the rubric of “patriots” or “militias” or such, right? Because it’s no use trying to stop things that are going to happen anyway.

Tell that to all the women whose lives have been saved because someone dropped a dime on their abusive mackers.

And I guess the same argument would apply to any DHS attempts to identify markers flagging potential Muslim extremists. Small percentages don’t count, right, so CAIR is correct, it’s all about illegal profiling.

587 hacker  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:37:22pm

re: #585 Charles

This is getting surreal. Again, at the meta level, because I did not RTFA, did you not say that the aspersion was at a “small percentage” of veterans?

“Be on the lookout” is literary license, but shouldn’t it be “be on the lookout for a small percentage of veterans”?

588 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:43:17pm

re: #587 hacker

This is getting surreal. Again, at the meta level, because I did not RTFA, did you not say that the aspersion was at a “small percentage” of veterans?

“Be on the lookout” is literary license, but shouldn’t it be “be on the lookout for a small percentage of veterans”?

There was no “be on the lookout” at all. It was a simple, factual warning that extremist groups are targeting veterans for recruitment, and it very clearly said that only a small percentage of veterans might be susceptible to such recruitment.

The distortion comes in when you try to claim there was an APB out on all veterans.

589 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:45:30pm

re: #587 hacker

… because I did not RTFA …

Are you actually saying that you didn’t even read the DHS report, but you’re still ranting about it?

Man, that’s pathetic.

590 SteveRogers  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:52:14pm

re: #585 Charles

Another distortion. The DHS report does not say anything like “be on the lookout for all veterans.”

I agree, Charles. So who or what kind of behavior should law enforcement be looking for as a possible indication of potential danger?
Other than providing a bunch of possibilities and poor speculation, the RWE tells law enforcement basically nothing. It does however provide lots of fodder to irresponsible reporters, bloggers and politicians, on both the Left and the Right.

Those who are on the Right should be very careful not to exaggerate or make false claims, but I do understand why so many on the Right are upset with the wording of this report.

Meanwhile, many of those on the Left including the MSM have indeed been using this report to smear those on the Right who are law abiding as radical, racist, extremist and far right nutjobs.

The President himself should speak out against irresponsible smearing going on by those in the press and some politicians and have the report rewritten in better language.
I realize this report wasn’t intended for public use, but that doesn’t change the fact it’s one of the worst assessment reports I have ever seen and unnecesarily inflammatory.

Besides, with the sheer number of law enforcement agents and officers that would see this information it’s not surprising it leaked out. We should expect better from Napolitano.

591 hacker  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 5:53:29pm

re: #589 Charles

Are you actually saying that you didn’t even read the DHS report, but you’re still ranting about it?

Man, that’s pathetic.

It’s approaching slapstick, but you have convinced me to RTFA. I’ll check back when that happens.

592 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:03:17pm

“Bored now.”

—Willow

593 Render  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:06:28pm

I’m no fan of Bob Barr’s, but I think he’s being done a disservice here somewhere. As I recall, he’s worked pretty hard at separating himself and his politics from the extreme nutbags.

===

At some point in the mid-90’s, the “organized” extreme Right became disorganized, by intention. Moving to small cells and lone wolf types in an effort to escape massive persecution and surveillance during the Clinton era. This followed the realization that most of the larger organized groups had been so heavily infiltrated by various Federal agencies that in some cases undercover Federal agents were investigating other undercover Federal agents or leading the parties being investigate. In other cases virtually every single member of certain groups (The Order, Aryan Nations) were confidential informants for one law enforcement agency or another, and sometimes multiple agencies.

(I still have no confirmation, but I still believe that Kevin Alfred Strom had the dime dropped on him by David Duke and Stroms own wife.)

As per usual for the gangs that couldn’t shoot straight, this planned disorganization didn’t go exactly as planned. The David Duke and Alex Linder crowds quickly realized that without the donations that come from some form of organization or another they couldn’t make a living (who’d hire them?) and that as well known, recognized, and recognizable leaders of the extreme Right, they were never going to be able to go underground.

I’m calling them Right Wing in this comment only for the sake of simplicity, as most of those groups and their leaders don’t think of themselves as being Right Wing, in spite of their hatred for the Left. They consider themselves as being the Third Way or Option. They will use the Right Wing as a vehicle to gain power but the form of government that they would install more closely resembles the Extreme Left they claim to hate so much.

The only proper way to label somebody is to use the labels they give themselves. Everything else is just made up.

===

What do Alex Jones, Alex Linder, David Duke, The Cockburn Family (Alex and Andrew) and Justin Raimondo all share in common? They all hate Jews.

When the firing squad is that big, it looks like a circle.

CHESTY
PULLER,
R

594 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:12:36pm
595 hacker  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:16:19pm

I’m back. I scanned TFA. I’m not a lawer, so I don’t read with a fine tooth comb, but it’s worse than I imagined. I can see why folks are pissed.

They can’t let McVeigh go. And anti-illegals - baad.

Unnamed civil rights organization sez:
“… reported in 2006 that “large numbers of potentially violent neo-Nazis, skinheads, …. are now learning the art of warfare in the [U.S.] armed forces.”

We’ve gone from “small percentage” to “large numbers”. Hmm.

596 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:17:27pm

re: #594 4k78

Can’t you give a fapping warning when you link to a goddam PDF? I hate that…

597 kansas  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:21:33pm

The real action is in the enemy’s reaction. The enemy properly goaded and guided in his reaction will be your major strength.

Anyone else starting to feel goaded?

598 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 6:52:11pm
599 tryptic67  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:03:13pm

re: #532 Cato the Elder

What exactly was the “you was making point”?

If you choose to apply the “chin-dribbling” part to yourself, that’s your affair. Wasn’t referring to you. But if the chin dribbles, wipe it. And all that.

The ammo sell-out is relevant because you claim the right-wing loons are a spent force. Somehow I don’t think it’s the Big Scrotum Guy and his friends with the giant puppets who are getting ready for the black helicopter invasion.

Love the way you sling the insult against me (chin dribbler), then say it wasn’t directed my way but if I want to “apply” it to myself, that’s ok with you. Nice debating technique there.

For your “ammo sell-out” paragraph to make sense, you must be claiming that anyone worried that Barack and the 111th congress will make a move to cutail gun rights and ammunition purchases - and thus buys both guns and ammunition - MUST therefore be a racist/extremis/right-winger, which supports your contention that the extreme right is not a spent force as I had suggested. Now there’s a bit of logical sleight-of-hand at action. How did you come up with that? Facts? Nah … you don’t cite any. You just take one group you don’t like (scared gun-buyers) and then suggest that they’re all right-wing haters like Stormfront. It has a certain effectiveness as a debating point, I suppose - even if it’s not, you know, based on anything but your own prejudice.

In its own way, though, it proves the point that some of us have been trying to make about the DHS report all along - that it is a club to be used against any unpopular conservative group in general whenever the time is right … anyone who may have inconvenient political thoughts (scared gun and ammo buyers) are *poof* right wing extremists. So says Cato, at least. Thanks all the same for illustrating the danger of the DHS report so clearly.

In any event, I doubt it’s all skinhead, Nazi killers buying up 22LR in order to start the next race war with a load that is mainly “used for hunting small pests, for sports shooting, for plinking, and for inexpensive training …,” as well shooting competitions. If that is the case, then we certainly don’t have anything to worry about, since our troops pack a heavier bullet. Maybe you’re just shopping at the wrong store.

600 guysmiley  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:26:13pm

boston.com

US Marine arrested at Logan
April 19, 2009 05:42 PM Email%P% Comments (25)%P% Text size – +

John C. Drake, Globe Staff

A US Marine was arrested today at Logan International Airport after federal airport screeners discovered a gun, bomb-making materials, and ammunition in his checked baggage, State Police and Transportation Security Administration officials said.

Corporal Justin Reed, 22, of Jacksonville, N.C., was booked on US Airways Flight 877 to Charlotte, N.C., said TSA spokeswoman Ann Davis. She said Reed had arrived on a flight from Las Vegas this morning.

601 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 7:41:50pm

re: #599 tryptic67

Meh. See my #592.

602 tom from pv  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 8:54:59pm

re: #544 chipbennett

I appreciated the debate on whether “Nazi’s are socialists or right wingers”. It is hard to refute that those 25 points are anything but socialism.

However, what were the contemporaneous views in the 20’s and 30’s? I mean, what was the “right wing” in Germany assuming Hitler and his ilk were “left wing”. Or was the only opposition to Hitler a even more leftist wing?

What I’m getting at is the center keeps shifting. What was quite leftist in 1932 America can often be something that Conservatives today will defend. Any thoughts on pre-war Germany?

603 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:01:04pm

re: #573 Charles

I didn’t say there was “something inherently negative” about it. However, you’d have to be pretty blind not to have noticed a high correlation between extreme right wing views and militia membership.

Likewise, you’d have to be pretty blind not to have noticed that those extremists by and large end up on their own, or in very small groups (i.e. single-digits), because the militias disassociate themselves with such people due to the militia’s rejection of their extremism.

604 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:05:28pm

re: #566 Charles

That’s fine, I have no problem with them disagreeing, but they’re wrong just like you are.

No disrespect intended, but somehow I put greater weight in the opinion of the two chief executives of the state of Missouri than in yours, in this matter.

The outrageous implications of the MIAC report were well understood by the people for whom it mattered, which is why the report was rescinded.

605 chipbennett  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:13:31pm

re: #595 hacker

I’m back. I scanned TFA. I’m not a lawer, so I don’t read with a fine tooth comb, but it’s worse than I imagined. I can see why folks are pissed.

They can’t let McVeigh go. And anti-illegals - baad.

Unnamed civil rights organization sez:
“… reported in 2006 that “large numbers of potentially violent neo-Nazis, skinheads, …. are now learning the art of warfare in the [U.S.] armed forces.”

We’ve gone from “small percentage” to “large numbers”. Hmm.

And those “large numbers” are not of militia members or white supremacists, but rather of gang members (according to the source document - and FBI report on gang infiltration of the military).

606 crosspatch  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:16:11pm

re: #578 Salamantis

Yeah, I know. I was being sarcastic. But there is a US Marine Corps camp.

607 zenpig  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:28:08pm
re: #4 zenpig

Registered since: Nov 27, 2007 at 6:57 pm
No. of comments posted: 1
No. of links posted: 0


by Charles


So, is this evidence of something?….I’m hardpressed to see relevance here but perhaps it speaks for itself just as what is “right-wing” and what is “left-wing” do. The assumptions are so thick here I guess it’s too much to ask that irony be given it’s due.

608 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:37:46pm

re: #607 zenpig

by Charles

So, is this evidence of something?….I’m hardpressed to see relevance here but perhaps it speaks for itself just as what is “right-wing” and what is “left-wing” do. The assumptions are so thick here I guess it’s too much to ask that irony be given it’s due.

When you wait for over a year to post a snarky comment that then gets 10 downdings, you are probably a troll. Charles was just posting the evidence.

609 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:45:14pm

re: #602 tom from pv

I appreciated the debate on whether “Nazi’s are socialists or right wingers”. It is hard to refute that those 25 points are anything but socialism.

However, what were the contemporaneous views in the 20’s and 30’s? I mean, what was the “right wing” in Germany assuming Hitler and his ilk were “left wing”. Or was the only opposition to Hitler a even more leftist wing?

What I’m getting at is the center keeps shifting. What was quite leftist in 1932 America can often be something that Conservatives today will defend. Any thoughts on pre-war Germany?

Have you ever read the Soviet Constitution? It’s quite an individual liberty document - that was systematically ignored.

Watch not what they say, but what they do.

610 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:48:24pm

re: #603 chipbennett

Likewise, you’d have to be pretty blind not to have noticed that those extremists by and large end up on their own, or in very small groups (i.e. single-digits), because the militias disassociate themselves with such people due to the militia’s rejection of their extremism.

Check out the National Alliance website. You’ll have to Google it; if I posted a link, Charles would quite justifiably whack it.

Same for Stormfront.

And by no stretch of the rational imagination could they either be considered to either have tiny memberships, or to be anything but extreme right wing.

611 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:49:47pm

re: #604 chipbennett

No disrespect intended, but somehow I put greater weight in the opinion of the two chief executives of the state of Missouri than in yours, in this matter.

The outrageous implications of the MIAC report were well understood by the people for whom it mattered, which is why the report was rescinded.

You’d probably give more credence to Bobby Jindal on creationism, as well. After all; isn’t he Louisiana’s chief executive?

612 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 19, 2009 9:54:56pm

re: #605 chipbennett

And those “large numbers” are not of militia members or white supremacists, but rather of gang members (according to the source document - and FBI report on gang infiltration of the military).

If the cockroaches are infesting your grain silo, chances are the rats are, as well.

Here’s the thing; fascism and communism are both collevivisms, but the former is right-wing and the latter is left-wing. And both are anathema to participatory democracy and constitutionally guaranteed individual liberties. Likewise, both rattlers and coral snakes are reptiles, but one’s bite contains hemotoxin and the other’s bite contains neurotoxin. But both will kill you, in differing ways. Either way, you’re just as dead.

613 Michal  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 4:00:21am

re: #4 zenpig

I agree with him
I ask you: are these stories just seeing the light of day because of the current political/economic climate?
Have they been there all along, buried in the middle of the paper?
Or have the “authorities” been keeping them quiet?
Homeland Security may not have had any interest in publicizing these investigations and arrests for the last 7 yrs.

They do have a new boss, no? New policies about publicity?

I’m talking not conspiracy theory here. I’m not a conspiracy nut.
This is policy change.

I just ask: isn’t it possible that law enforcement are being given permission to report on these folks and the press are putting it on pages 1 to 3 and the back page so it’s getting noticed?

I wonder if there are more kooks out there.
I wonder if they are actually more active. Moving out of all talk to doing something.
I just wonder.
Because I’m inclined to doubt it.

614 Michal  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 4:05:47am

re: #277 Cato the Elder

……-.. .—. -.-.— / .. .——. — / -… . .. -. —. / ……-.. -.. / .. -. / .- -. / ..- -. -.…-. —. .-. —- ..- -. -.. / .-.. —- -.-. .- - .. —- -. / -… -.— / - …. . / -.. …. … .-.-.- / .- .-.. .-.. / .. / -.. .. -.. / .— .- … / — . -. - .. —- -. / —- -… .- — .- / .. -. / - …. . / … .- — . / … . -. - . -. -.-. . / .— .. - …. / -… —- — -… —..— / … -. .. .—…-. / .-. .. ..-. .-.. . —..— / .- -. - …. .-. .- -..- / .- -. -.. / .- … … .- … … .. -. .- - .. —- -. .-.-.- / -. —- .— / - …. . -.— / … .- -.— / .. .——. — / .- -. / . -..- - .-. . — .. … - .-.-.- / .— . .-.. .-.. —..— / .- .-.. .-.. / — -.— / — .. .-.. .. - .. .- / -… ..- -.. -.. .. . … / … .- -.— / - …. . / … .- — . / - …. .. -. —. … / .- .-.. .-.. / - …. . / - .. — . .-.-.- / .— …. -.— / .- — / .. / -… . .. -. —. / .—…-. … . -.-. ..- - . -.. ..—.. / .. … / .- -. -.— —- -. . / .-.. .. … - . -. .. -. —. ..—..

…—-…

could you put this up in Pig Latin?
Thanks

615 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:49:10am

re: #609 Salamantis

Have you ever read the Soviet Constitution? It’s quite an individual liberty document - that was systematically ignored.

Watch not what they say, but what they do.

Again, how did the Nazis act in any way differently from what they stated in their 25-point program? Specifically, what ideologies did they implement that were counter to the socialist ideologies found therein?

616 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:51:24am

re: #610 Salamantis

Check out the National Alliance website. You’ll have to Google it; if I posted a link, Charles would quite justifiably whack it.

Same for Stormfront.

And by no stretch of the rational imagination could they either be considered to either have tiny memberships, or to be anything but extreme right wing.

I’ve read what the ADL (certainly no right-wing apologists, they) has to say about National Alliance. They are National Socialists.

What right wing ideologies do such groups profess?

(And, please, make sure your answer doesn’t include “racism”.)

617 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:52:14am

re: #611 Salamantis

You’d probably give more credence to Bobby Jindal on creationism, as well. After all; isn’t he Louisiana’s chief executive?

Well, if he were making the decision about an intelligence report issued in his state, then yes, I would give his opinion more credence.

Otherwise, how is your assertion even relevant?

618 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:55:04am

re: #612 Salamantis

If the cockroaches are infesting your grain silo, chances are the rats are, as well.

Here’s the thing; fascism and communism are both collevivisms, but the former is right-wing and the latter is left-wing. And both are anathema to participatory democracy and constitutionally guaranteed individual liberties. Likewise, both rattlers and coral snakes are reptiles, but one’s bite contains hemotoxin and the other’s bite contains neurotoxin. But both will kill you, in differing ways. Either way, you’re just as dead.

There is no such thing as “right-wing collectivism”. The very concept of collectivism is anathema to right-wing ideology.

As has been stated several times, if Hagel is defining the left and right extremes, then the spectrum is being artificially limited.

By the way, what do gangs have to do with either militias or white supremacists?

619 jon_berzerk  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:55:25am

Posting a couple of examples of why the President may have released the rightwing extremist booklet is as goofy as gun control advocates pointing to a random shooting to push more gun control.

620 jackfetch  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:35:14am

Yes, we’re about to be treated to every story that could possibly be spun into “right-wing nuts plan violence”… It’s like the freeway shootings in Southern California that began with a shooting in a driveway by two people who knew each other, then with story after story about “freeway violence” hitting the airwaves people actually began shooting at each other on the road.

I suspect we’ll eventually see the same with “right wing” plots and such, since the media has decided to justify the DHS report.

621 jaunte  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 7:57:59am

Remember to save some of the DHS outrage for The FBI, the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Division, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.

The FBI documents show the bureau was working with investigators inside the nation’s uniformed services “in an effort to identify those current or former soldiers who pose a domestic terrorism threat.” The other agencies working with the FBI are the U.S. Army Criminal Investigative Division, the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.online.wsj.com

622 jon_berzerk  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 12:58:23pm

Did Oswald join a Right wing extremist group after his gig in the marines?

623 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:37:19pm

re: #615 chipbennett

Again, how did the Nazis act in any way differently from what they stated in their 25-point program? Specifically, what ideologies did they implement that were counter to the socialist ideologies found therein?

By following the Right-Hegelian tribal ethnocentric vision of attempting to cleanse the Vokish soil of non-Aryan races.

Left-Hegelians are unversalist, and do not recognize tribal or geographic differences.

624 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:46:40pm

re: #616 chipbennett

I’ve read what the ADL (certainly no right-wing apologists, they) has to say about National Alliance. They are National Socialists.

What right wing ideologies do such groups profess?

(And, please, make sure your answer doesn’t include “racism”.)

But tribal ethnocentrism is an essential component of Left-Hegelianism. You seriously don’t think that Hitler was gassing Jews for their politics, do you? If so, why was he gassing both religious and secular Jews, regardless of their political stances?

And National Socialists are Nazis. They are socialist in the same way that China is a Peoples Republic.

But the nationalist part is true. It is a reflection of the fascist tribalism (antisemitic, anti-black) of the National Alliance.

Read their publications The Turner Diaries and Hunter, by William Pierce (writing under the alias Andrew Macdonald), their founder, and Serpent’s Walk, by Randalph D. Calverhall, and Might Is Right, by Ragnar Redbeard, to learn what you need to know about this group.

625 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 1:50:28pm

re: #617 chipbennett

Well, if he were making the decision about an intelligence report issued in his state, then yes, I would give his opinion more credence.

Otherwise, how is your assertion even relevant?

It’s relevant because simply being elected to office does not grant one infallibility. And Bobby Jindal is a case in point.

626 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 2:05:42pm

re: #618 chipbennett

There is no such thing as “right-wing collectivism”. The very concept of collectivism is anathema to right-wing ideology.

Wrong. Both fascism and communism are different strains of collectivism. Extreme individualism is represented by anarchism.

As has been stated several times, if Hegel is defining the left and right extremes, then the spectrum is being artificially limited.

You just don’t get it. Both fascism AND communism were theoretical outgrowths, in different directions, from Hegel’s philosophical thought. He is the ideological father of both of them; the single conceptual fount from which both originally sprang. Hegel couldn’t have been critiquing them; they didn’t even exist until he wrote his books and they were both abstracted from them.

By the way, what do gangs have to do with either militias or white supremacists?

Gangs are just criminal organizations. The Crips and the Bloods, the People and the Folk, do each have their own Bible, called the Wisdom or the Knowledge, which gang members are expected to know. But it is basically an extended exhortation to embrace the murder of outsiders and one’s own individual death for the sake of the gang family.

627 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 3:48:57pm

re: #623 Salamantis

By following the Right-Hegelian tribal ethnocentric vision of attempting to cleanse the Vokish soil of non-Aryan races.

Left-Hegelians are unversalist, and do not recognize tribal or geographic differences.

Why do you keep limiting the right to Hegelian philosophy?

It may be convenient for your argument, but it is inaccurate with respect to right-wing ideology in America.

628 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 3:50:21pm

re: #625 Salamantis

It’s relevant because simply being elected to office does not grant one infallibility. And Bobby Jindal is a case in point.

So why do you believe Jay Nixon and Peter Kinder to be wrong on this issue?

629 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 3:54:00pm

re: #626 Salamantis

Wrong. Both fascism and communism are different strains of collectivism. Extreme individualism is represented by anarchism…

You just don’t get it. Both fascism AND communism were theoretical outgrowths, in different directions, from Hegel’s philosophical thought. He is the ideological father of both of them; the single conceptual fount from which both originally sprang. Hegel couldn’t have been critiquing them; they didn’t even exist until he wrote his books and they were both abstracted from them.

Look, you don’t get to tell us on the right that we are wrong when we say that we reject the concept of collectivism. Why do you think that you get to dictate our ideology to us?

We declare that we reject collectivism. What you (or Hagel) say really doesn’t change the ideology to which we ascribe.

(Or is it only the National Alliance that get to self-identify, without challenge?)

Gangs are just criminal organizations. The Crips and the Bloods, the People and the Folk, do each have their own Bible, called the Wisdom or the Knowledge, which gang members are expected to know. But it is basically an extended exhortation to embrace the murder of outsiders and one’s own individual death for the sake of the gang family.

So, again, what do gangs have to do with militias and white supremacists?

630 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 5:57:24pm

re: #627 chipbennett

Why do you keep limiting the right to Hegelian philosophy?

It may be convenient for your argument, but it is inaccurate with respect to right-wing ideology in America.

It’s the seminal fount from which all right wing philosophy sprang. All of its various fascist and neonazi children still retain it in their conceptual DNA.

631 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:03:53pm

re: #628 chipbennett

So why do you believe Jay Nixon and Peter Kinder to be wrong on this issue?

Because I have read the DHS report, and find it to be fair, if clumsily stated. We SHOULD be keeping our eyes open for recruitment of US military personnel by extreme right wing groups. Just like we should keep our eyes open for the depredations of extreme left wing groups and of Islamofascist groups, as detailed in two other DHS reports.

There are several US military veterans, including myself, who have publicly stated on this list that they in no way feel slandered by the report. We know that in an organization numbering in the high hundreds of thousands that there is a good chance that there might be some folks susceptible to such suasion. And our military training makes us much more dangerous than the average civilian citizen, as far as planning and perpetrating paramilitary and terror attacks are concerned.

632 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:19:27pm

re: #629 chipbennett

Look, you don’t get to tell us on the right that we are wrong when we say that we reject the concept of collectivism. Why do you think that you get to dictate our ideology to us?

We declare that we reject collectivism. What you (or Hegel) say really doesn’t change the ideology to which we ascribe.

(Or is it only the National Alliance that get to self-identify, without challenge?)

Perhaps, as I said before, you are more libertarian than you are conservative. The two hang out a lot together and swap ideas. But when anti-collectivism morphs into revolutionary anti-governmentism, as it does with the extreme right wing, there is a clear problem.

So, again, what do gangs have to do with militias and white supremacists?

I never said that gangs DID have anything to do with militias or white supremacists (that is, if we’re talking Crips or Bloods). Bob Mathews, on the other hand, was a radical right-wing neofascist who put together an armed gang called The Order, and proceeded to knock over gun shows for weaponry he used to knock over banks, businesses, and armored cars, distributing the cash to several neonazi organizations, including the White Patriot Party. And of course they used military tactics to do so. They also got into counterfeiting.

You really need to bone up on the history of these people. Here’s a documentary called Blood in the Face, where these people are allowed to speak for themselves:

633 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:37:37pm

re: #630 Salamantis

It’s the seminal fount from which all right wing philosophy sprang. All of its various fascist and neonazi children still retain it in their conceptual DNA.

It’s not the fount from which sprang American right-wing philosophy. It is far to the left of us.

634 chipbennett  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 6:40:30pm

re: #631 Salamantis

Because I have read the DHS report, and find it to be fair, if clumsily stated. We SHOULD be keeping our eyes open for recruitment of US military personnel by extreme right wing groups. Just like we should keep our eyes open for the depredations of extreme left wing groups and of Islamofascist groups, as detailed in two other DHS reports.

There are several US military veterans, including myself, who have publicly stated on this list that they in no way feel slandered by the report. We know that in an organization numbering in the high hundreds of thousands that there is a good chance that there might be some folks susceptible to such suasion. And our military training makes us much more dangerous than the average civilian citizen, as far as planning and perpetrating paramilitary and terror attacks are concerned.

Did you read the MIAC report? I’m guessing not, since you, for some reason, diverted the conversation back to the DHS report.

Before you impugn the judgement of (the democrat) Governor Nixon and (the republican) Lt. Governor Kinder, please read the report. Its hyperbole far exceeds the DHS report.

635 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 9:48:43pm

re: #633 chipbennett

It’s not the fount from which sprang American right-wing philosophy. It is far to the left of us.

Not as long as blatant ethnic supremacist racism remains an essential component of groups like Stormfront and National Alliance.

636 Salamantis  Mon, Apr 20, 2009 10:28:26pm

re: #634 chipbennett

Did you read the MIAC report? I’m guessing not, since you, for some reason, diverted the conversation back to the DHS report.

Before you impugn the judgement of (the democrat) Governor Nixon and (the republican) Lt. Governor Kinder, please read the report. Its hyperbole far exceeds the DHS report.

Okay, I read it over at prisonplanet (I need a shower after visiting that site).

I am familiar with most of the groups mentioned, and they do have historically demonstrated violent tendencies. Since you claim to have read the report, you must have perused the list of violent attacks perpetrated by them.

Perhaps your concern is their mentioning that some of these people might identify themselves as supporting the candidacies or political parties of Ron Paul, Bob Barr, and Chuck Baldwin.

Ron Paul has had racist material published in his newsletter several times. This sort of thing would naturally attract such people, as would his desire to shut down most governmental functions. Chuck Baldwin is the pastor of the Crossroads Baptist Church, near me. He is known here as a certified loon with a cultish congregation, and he has ties to the theocratic Dominionist movement, which wishes to abolish the US Constitution and replace it with the Bible (a Christian version of sharia law). Of the three, Bob Barr has tried the most to dissociate himself from folks like this, yet some of them nevertheless persist in clinging to him. These are, as the report states, NOT the kind of people who would be either Republicans or Democrats, since they are likely to consider the two main parties to simply be two wings of the ZOG (Zionist Occupation Government), against which they have sworn eternal resistance. They are unlikely to have supported John McCain, and highly unlikely to have supported Barack Obama.

But, of course, the vast majority of supporters of Paul, Baldwin and Barr wouldn’t touch these people with a ten foot pole. Nevertheless, the fact that someone supports one of these candidates means that there is a greater (although still tiny) chance that they are associated with a militant far right group than if they supported the two mainstream candidates. Just like the vast majority of Muslims aren’t gonna blow up your plane, but if a passenger is a Muslim, there is a greater (although still tiny) chance that he might try it than that the Quaker passenger would. So, if you only got to search one of them, which one would it be?

Either all profiling is bad, or none of it is bad. And profilng does not obey politics, either correct or un-, but statistics.

And I know how violent radical antiabortionists can be. Such people have murdered three people and wounded another in two separate firearms attacks in my home town, and firebombed half a dozen clinics here. One of the murderers, Methodist minister Paul Hill, was executed for his crimes, and radical antiabortionists still maintain websites in his posthumous honor.


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