Another Huge Demonstration in Tehran

World • Views: 1,905

Thousands of demonstrators took to the streets of Tehran today, in what’s beginning to look like an exercise in futility — because the mullahs are not going to back down, and they have the power of the Revolutionary Guard and the Basiji militias behind them.

TEHRAN, Iran – Tens of thousands of protesters wearing black and carrying candles filled the streets of Tehran again Thursday, joining opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi to mourn demonstrators killed in clashes over Iran’s disputed election.

The massive protest openly defied orders from Iran’s supreme leader, despite a government attempt to placate Mousavi and his supporters by inviting the reformist and two other candidates who ran against hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to a meeting with the country’s main electoral authority.

Many in the huge crowd carried black candles and lit them as night fell. Others wore green wristbands and carried flowers in mourning as they filed into Imam Khomenei Square, a large plaza in the heart of the capital named for the founder of the Islamic Revolution, witnesses said. …

The demonstrators had marched silently until they arrived at the square, where some chanted “Death to the dictator!” one of the witnesses said. Press TV showed protesters making V-for-victory gestures and holding pictures of Mousavi and signs that say “Where’s our Vote?”

The witnesses spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity for fear of government retaliation.

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308 comments
1 CIA Reject  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:52:59am

"Prague Spring" reloaded...

2 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:53:26am

Rave on protestors! Rave on!

3 2by2  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:55:03am

G'd bless them.
They'll need it. Sincerely hoping it's not going to be the Prague Spring reloaded.

4 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:55:11am

I don't know if I would call it futility, yet. A stalemate, certainly, but until and unless something happens to force the deadlock, the protesters could yet win the day.

5 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:55:26am

Hoping this is a stepping stone.

6 Macker  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:55:31am

If those protesters want a new and better Iran, then they'd better ratchet it up because the tree of freedom and liberty has to be fed the blood of tyrants!
If they don't, they could end up pounded into dust. And not by the Mullahs either.

7 VioletTiger  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:56:00am

The human spirit will always long for freedom and democracy. I hope they manage to find both.

8 captdiggs  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:56:00am

As Obama hits the snooze button.

9 CIA Reject  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:56:00am

re: #3 2by2

G'd bless them.
They'll need it. Sincerely hoping it's not going to be the Prague Spring reloaded.

Yes, may G*d help them because Obama sure as hell won't.

10 zombie  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:56:30am
Thousands of demonstrators took to the streets of Tehran today, in what’s beginning to look like an exercise in futility — because the mullahs are not going to back down, and they have the power of the Revolutionary Guard and the Basiji militias behind them.

One could have said the same about the crowds trying to storm the Bastille in 1789, or staging impotent rallies in St. Petersburg in 1917.

Everything seems futile until it succeeds.

11 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:56:36am

Of course, instead of using the Revolutionary Guard or the Basiji, they could use gas or chemical weapons (fortunately they don't have nukes yet)
-- and then blame Israel.

12 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:57:23am

Let's send 'em tanks.

13 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:57:25am

to the brave citizens in the styreets of iran: remember what this regime stands for ...

[Link: atheism.about.com...]

keep fighting for a free iran. we support you.

14 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:57:49am

Irresistible force v. immovable object.

I fear there will be blood, and it's only a matter of time, because the protesters aren't going to go quietly into the night. They've pierced the heart of darkness that is the Ahmadinejad regime and seen it for that it is. They've further seen just what Khamenei is (or has become, depending on your view of his participation and support for Ahmadinejad).

15 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:58:17am

re: #8 captdiggs

As Obama hits the snooze button.

It's not 3 AM yet.

16 Macker  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:58:19am

re: #11 Kosh's Shadow

Of course, instead of using the Revolutionary Guard or the Basiji, they could use gas or chemical weapons (fortunately they don't have nukes yet)
-- and then blame Israel the JOOOOOOS.

There, fixed that for ya!

17 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:58:33am
18 OrlandoParkRat  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:58:41am

Too bad the White House didn't offer any support ... but here's hoping they don't give up. Maybe they could show us a few things about how to fight against what was sold as "change."

19 MikeAlv77  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:58:44am

re: #10 zombie

One could have said the same about the crowds trying to storm the Bastille in 1789, or staging impotent rallies in St. Petersburg in 1917.

Everything seems futile until it succeeds.

Or even a few colonials signing a declaration against the largest empire on earth

20 filetandrelease  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:58:52am

I hope Charles assessment is wrong, but fear not.

21 notutopia  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:58:57am

I agree this is futile with only rocks and petrofuel. There will only be more deaths of protesters. I cannot help but wonder if these demonstrators even know the real underlying mastermind purpose they are following Mousavi's lead.
They are being used as pawns.

22 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:59:07am

re: #13 _RememberTonyC

to the brave citizens in the styreets of iran: remember what this regime stands for ...

[Link: atheism.about.com...]

keep fighting for a free iran. we support you.


I'm not sure what these demonstrators are fighting for, but one thing I am pretty sure of is that an Iran free of the Mullahs is NOT in the cards. I hope I am wrong but time will tell.

23 formercorpsman  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:59:08am

I hope in my heart of hearts, this is not an exercise in futility.

As well, albeit I do not own a firearm, I think this demonstrates clearly why the founders here wanted a nation equipped & able to fight back if need be.

It is time for this theocracy in Iran to die off.

24 Bob Dillon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 9:59:56am

re: #10 zombie

One could have said the same about the crowds trying to storm the Bastille in 1789, or staging impotent rallies in St. Petersburg in 1917.

Everything seems futile until it succeeds.

This is a similar pattern that took out the Shah (and the same folks are behind the curtain today). If there is bloodshed today ... another mourning rally will be called ... larger.

25 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:00:00am

re: #15 Cannadian Club Akbar

forgot..
///

26 haakondahl  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:00:16am

re: #10 zombie

One could have said the same about the crowds trying to storm the Bastille in 1789, or staging impotent rallies in St. Petersburg in 1917.

Everything seems futile until it succeeds.

Ding!

27 2by2  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:00:39am

re: #9 CIA Reject

Yes, may G*d help them because Obama sure as hell won't.

As things develop, and if they resist and don't lay down (probably at a terrible cost of lives) there will be a groundswell around the world in support of them. With that, the Obama administration will probably come out behind them as well.

28 Macker  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:01:02am

re: #26 haakondahl

What, no 10,000 updings for zombie?

29 wiffersnapper  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:01:35am

Democracy in the Middle East is spreading. If not democracy, at least dissatisfaction for despotism. Good for the protesters.

30 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:01:39am

Its not only happening in Tehran - here is a photo from Isphahan, from yesterday's demo:

Image: crowdsceneiran1.jpg

(Via the Grauniad blog)

31 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:01:41am

re: #28 Macker

What, no 10,000 updings for zombie?

I think we are entering MEGA ding territory right about now.

32 phillies2008  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:01:53am

#23

If each of these demonstrators were armed, I bet the brave Revolutionary Guard would be running for the hills.

33 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:02:11am

re: #9 CIA Reject

Yes, may G*d help them because Obama sure as hell won't.

ODS nonsense. We have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. We are almost certainly helping, interfering and meddling. Just because Obama isn't foaming at the mouth with rhetoric doesn't mean that nothing is going on.

34 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:02:37am

re: #32 phillies2008

#23

If each of these demonstrators were armed, I bet the brave Revolutionary Guard would be running for the hills.

The RG is only elite because they have all the arms.

35 filetandrelease  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:02:56am

re: #24 Bobibutu

This is a similar pattern that took out the Shah (and the same folks are behind the curtain today). If there is bloodshed today ... another mourning rally will be called ... larger.

The Islamist were instrumental in overthrowing the Shaw.

36 haakondahl  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:03:00am

re: #22 Nevergiveup

I'm not sure what these demonstrators are fighting for, but one thing I am pretty sure of is that an Iran free of the Mullahs is NOT in the cards. I hope I am wrong but time will tell.

Sounds like you gave up.

37 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:03:07am

re: #34 FurryOldGuyJeans

The RG is only elite because they have all the arms.

And snappy uniforms.

38 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:03:26am

From the CNN report:

Iran said it was investigating reports of violence at a Tehran University dormitory, and Iran's parliament Speaker Ali Larijani blamed the Interior Ministry for the raid on the dorm and attacks on civilians.

Larijani's comments are seen as an unprecedented rebuke to Ahmadinejad, who has been taking heat from many religious conservatives over his criticism of protesters. And such criticism reflects an unprecedented public airing of a rift among ruling conservatives.

---

If true some interesting fissures are starting to appear.

39 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:03:28am

re: #27 2by2

As things develop, and if they resist and don't lay down (probably at a terrible cost of lives) there will be a groundswell around the world in support of them. With that, the Obama administration will probably come out behind them as well.

I want to believe that to be true, and that the world will indeed rally behind those people in Iran who want to get out from under the oppression of the theocracy. And, I want to believe the administration will offer their support as well.

I just can't realistically believe that will happen.

I will continue to hope that it does.

40 soxfan4life  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:03:57am

re: #34 FurryOldGuyJeans

The RG is only elite because they have all the arms.

And haven't been tested against an equal or greater force.

41 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:04:05am

HERE is one of the dreaded internet polls - but worth doing this time.
They ask for Google to turn green, for one day, in support of the Iranian dissent.

42 CIA Reject  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:04:07am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

ODS nonsense. We have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. We are almost certainly helping, interfering and meddling. Just because Obama isn't foaming at the mouth with rhetoric doesn't mean that nothing is going on.

A simple statement of support would do wonders.

I never suggested that he should "foam at the mouth".

And I'll thank you for not putting words into my mouth.

43 Unakite  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:04:15am

Barack Obama’s response to why he’s been silent on the election fraud in Iran: “So what’s the big deal? We do this all the time in Chicago.”

44 aRedPhishHead  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:04:35am

Well, it's a good thing the fists are now unclenched. I was beginning to worry that we wouldn't be able to have a rational, good-faith partner in nuclear negotiations for our beloved President to talk to and hug.

:-)

45 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:04:37am

"Amadi-Bye-Bye!"

46 MikeAlv77  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:04:39am

re: #32 phillies2008

#23

If each of these demonstrators were armed, I bet the brave Revolutionary Guard would be running for the hills.

Which proves the point that the best way to control a population is to disarm them...

47 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:04:49am

re: #38 Shr_Nfr

If true some interesting fissures are starting to appear.

Gorbachev and Perestroika, Iran 2009.

48 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:04:57am

Reg: Solidarity, brother!

Revolutionary VIII: Oh, yes...solidarity, Reg.

49 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:04:58am

re: #37 Son of the Black Dog

And snappy uniforms.

How is it everyone in the ME but the Iranians have weapons?

50 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:05:18am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

ODS nonsense. We have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. We are almost certainly helping, interfering and meddling. Just because Obama isn't foaming at the mouth with rhetoric doesn't mean that nothing is going on.

Sure hope you are right.

51 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:05:35am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

ODS nonsense. We have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. We are almost certainly helping, interfering and meddling. Just because Obama isn't foaming at the mouth with rhetoric doesn't mean that nothing is going on.

I am not so sure about that and this has nothing to do with Obama. I doubt our own State Department, CIA, or other intelligence Agencies really have a good grip on what is happening and in all likelihood are watching just like we are.

52 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:05:56am

Conservatives’ Dangerous Iran Response Runs Off the Rails

Despite the almost unanimous opinion of serious Iran experts that it would be very harmful to the demonstrators if the United States were seen as directly supporting them, conservative political leaders - such as Mike Pence, Eric Cantor, and John McCain - and thinkers – such as Robert Kagan – have insisted that the United States do just that. Ascertaining the motives of these conservatives is difficult – are they so blinded by ideology that they actually don’t recognize that U.S. meddling would play into Ahmadinejad’s hands and would potentially further endanger Iranian demonstrators; or are they simply trying to score cheap political points by attacking Obama. But what is clear is that their cries, recommendations, and critiques are reflective of a conservative movement that on foreign policy has run off the rails.

Calling for the United States to directly support the protests – even symbolically – could place the demonstrators in severe danger. The Iranian regime is feverishly attempting to label the demonstrators as western agitators backed by the United States – Iranian state television even used a clip from FOX News in an effort to make this point. Therefore the calls from Pence, Cantor, and McCain are not only just unhelpful, but they are a total gift to Ahmadinejad. Furthermore, conservatives seem oblivious to their own record of failure to promote democracy under the Bush administration, as democracy failed to advance and even receded in much of the world. Aggressive sounding talk, threats of force, and an over emphasis on the mere holding of elections served only to strengthen hardliners and undermine the United States.

Iranians, Iranian Americans, journalists, and Iranian national security experts all agree that the last thing Iranian demonstrators need is U.S. interference.

53 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:06:01am

re: #51 Nevergiveup

I am not so sure about that and this has nothing to do with Obama. I doubt our own State Department, CIA, or other intelligence Agencies really have a good grip on what is happening and in all likelihood are watching just like we are.

Sure hope you are wrong.

54 bbcrackmonkey  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:06:02am

Never underestimate the human spirit's drive to be free.

55 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:06:12am

re: #36 haakondahl

Sounds like you gave up.

well your often tone deaf

56 haakondahl  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:06:22am

re: #51 Nevergiveup

I am not so sure about that and this has nothing to do with Obama. I doubt our own State Department, CIA, or other intelligence Agencies really have a good grip on what is happening and in all likelihood are watching just like we are.

Ding.

57 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:06:27am

re: #36 haakondahl

Dinnerjacket's espoused vision according to the Age [Link: www.theage.com.au...] is:

It is widely believed that Mr Ahmadinejad and his supporters harbour dreams of transforming Iran from an Islamic republic to an "Islamic government", a distinction that would do away with elections and the need to observe the late Ayatollah Khomeini's invocation to respect the "people's will". By this vision, Iran would forever take its guidance only from the divine, in the form of an all-powerful spiritual leader.

-----

Interestingly from the same story they are arresting some of the leaders from the 79 revolution:

Ebrahim Yazdi, a former foreign minister and aide to the father of the revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, was arrested at the Tehran hospital where he was having medical tests, according to the website of his Freedom Party. Seven other members of the party were also detained.

Mohammad Tavassali, Tehran's mayor in the years after the revolution, was also arrested. Mr Tavassali is close to former president Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, and the arrest was widely seen as a warning shot aimed at Mr Rafsanjani.

58 MikeAlv77  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:06:49am

"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
— Winston Churchill

59 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:07:24am

It's obvious that this is an unarmed population. No?

60 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:07:28am

re: #47 FurryOldGuyJeans

Or Stalin and liquidations Russia 1930s.

61 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:07:47am

re: #51 Nevergiveup

We've been active on the ground in Iran for decades. The CIA and the NSA are very well informed about what's going on there and are probably very involved.

62 MikeAlv77  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:08:04am

Found my quote...

"...to disarm the people (is) the best and most effective way to enslave them..."

-- George Mason

63 notutopia  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:08:10am

The Art of War (6th century BC), Sun Tzu
知彼知己,百戰不殆;不知彼而知己,一勝一負;不知彼,不知己,每戰必殆
translation: It is said that if you KNOW your enemies and KNOW yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do NOT know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do NOT know your enemies NOR yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.

[Link: www.gutenberg.org...]

64 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:08:32am

re: #56 haakondahl

Ding.

OK maybe your not tone deaf.

65 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:08:53am

re: #59 DistantThunder
I wouldn't carry a weapon to demonstrtion!
An armed coup...YES!

66 CIA Reject  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:08:53am

re: #51 Nevergiveup

I am not so sure about that and this has nothing to do with Obama. I doubt our own State Department, CIA, or other intelligence Agencies really have a good grip on what is happening and in all likelihood are watching just like we are.

re: #50 Creeping Eruption

re: #53 Creeping Eruption

I think hope (and prayer) are all any of us have to go on with this situation at this point.

BBL

67 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:08:55am

re: #59 DistantThunder

How can you tell? But the liberals will always be second amendment deniers.

68 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:08:55am
69 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:09:03am

re: #61 Killgore Trout

We've been active on the ground in Iran for decades. The CIA and the NSA are very well informed about what's going on there and are probably very involved.

The same CIA and NSA that screwed the pooch regarding Iraqi WMDs? Excuse me while I laugh at your assertion of competence.

70 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:09:04am

re: #57 Shr_Nfr

Ebrahim Yazdi is back in hospital:

'5.30pm:
As we reported earlier, prominent dissident Dr Ebrahim Yazdi of the Iran Freedom Movement has been returned under guard to Pars Hospital, where he was undergoing treatment for complications from prostate cancer.'

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

71 bbcrackmonkey  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:09:23am

Also do not doubt that America has a presence in the area. We are likely working covertly with opposition groups to supply funding and intel. Due to the Plame Affair it is open public knowledge that we have CIA assets in Iran, and judging by how the State Department intervened to change Twitter's downtime, the administration is firmly in the protesters camp.

But we cannot intervene directly or else we would undermine domestic support for the opposition groups when they need it most.

72 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:09:27am

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

73 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:09:30am

re: #50 Creeping Eruption

Sure hope you are right.

If that turns out to be true, I just might have to develop some grudging respect for our naive Marxist-in-Chief.

74 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:09:36am

re: #14 lawhawk

Irresistible force v. immovable object.

I fear there will be blood, and it's only a matter of time, because the protesters aren't going to go quietly into the night. They've pierced the heart of darkness that is the Ahmadinejad regime and seen it for that it is. They've further seen just what Khamenei is (or has become, depending on your view of his participation and support for Ahmadinejad).

They've also seen that Iraq got rid of their dictator/oppressor, and now has somewhat of a democracy. How can they not be looking at that and thinking..."Hey, what about us? We can do that."

75 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:09:40am

re: #63 notutopia

Sounds like Obammy boy is class 3.

76 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:09:51am

Reza Aslan on the 1979 Playbook


What’s really fascinating about what’s happening right now in 2009 is that it looks a lot like what was happening in 1979. And there’s a very simple reason for that. The same people are in charge — I mean, Mousavi, Rafsanjani, Khatami, Medhi Karroubi, the other reformist candidate — these were all the original revolutionaries who brought down the Shah to begin with, so they know how to do this right.

And so what you’re going to see tomorrow is something that was pulled exactly out of the playbook of 1979, which is that you have these massive mourning rallies, where you mourn the deaths of those who were martyred in the cause of freedom. And these things tend to get a little bit out of control, they often result in even more violence by the security forces and even more deaths, which then requires another mourning rally which is even larger, which then requires more violence from the government, and this just becomes an ongoing snowball that can’t be stopped.

That’s how the Shah was removed from power, was these mourning ceremonies. And so Mousavi very smartly calling for an official — not a rally — but an official day of mourning tomorrow. I think we’re going to see crowds that we haven’t even begun to see yet, and then follow that, on Friday, which is sort of the Muslim sabbath, the day of prayer, which is a traditionally a day of gathering anyway. This is just beginning,..., this is just the beginning.

77 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:10:09am

re: #49 Cannadian Club Akbar

How is it everyone in the ME but the Iranians have weapons?

An excellent question. "An AK-47 in every pot!" "A T-72 in every garage!"
But seriously, the Iraq-Iran border is open in both directions. AK knockoffs are manufactured by every former Soviet bloc state in the world, plus a few others. There ought to be a way to provide some material support to these people without it being traced back to us.

78 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:10:14am

re: #61 Killgore Trout

We've been active on the ground in Iran for decades. The CIA and the NSA are very well informed about what's going on there and are probably very involved.

Well not sure where you get that from. I certainly have no idea and from some things I have read and seen over the years I doubt it, but I hope your correct.

79 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:10:17am

re: #69 FurryOldGuyJeans


The same CIA and NSA that screwed the pooch regarding Iraqi WMDs? Excuse me while I laugh at your assertion of competence.


How patriotic of you.

80 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:10:49am

Germany has come out with statements.
France has made a statement.
Dinnerjacket predictably screamed about "western interference."
The protesters are holding up signs in ENGLISH.

81 aRedPhishHead  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:10:56am
You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

I forget where and whence, but I once read a debate in a comment thread between a pretty rabid leftist and a few other commentors. The topic was about the subjugation that Islamic regimes often force on their people and their women in particular.

One of the commenters asked the leftist if he would prefer that such a draconian set of primitive "laws" would be acceptable here in America should they be "voted" into practice, and he merely replied that "I'd rather live on my knees than die on my feet."

I laughed with pity.

Pretty much sums it all up right there.

82 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:10:57am

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Ah, I saw similar sentiment yesterday on TNR. It's a critique of Kagan's article yesterday.

The response generally goes like this - US shouldn't interfere, and Obama shouldn't say anything because it would mean bad things for the opposition.

That's the sum total of the criticism, and it falls apart because the regime will say and do anything to remain in power - regardless of what the US says or does. The least that the US can do is say that it supports free and fair elections - rehashing Ahmadinejad's own language about elections.

That's not interfering. That's a statement of fact. Besides, if the US does nothing (which appears to be the case) - it will still be blamed as the bogeyman by the mullahs who want to retain power over the objections of the people.

Besides, since when is it acceptable to stand by silently in the face of evil? The left seems to have no problem with this, and it is sickening.

Moreover, they claim that this is some form of realpolitik, but that too fails on its face since there is no reason to recognize the Ahmadinejad regime and the outcome of the election. An uncertain outcome strengthens US hand in power politics since it is a form of divide and conquer allowing the various factions to fight among themselves instead of uniting against the US.

83 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:11:01am

re: #71 bbcrackmonkey

Also do not doubt that America has a presence in the area. We are likely working covertly with opposition groups to supply funding and intel. Due to the Plame Affair it is open public knowledge that we have CIA assets in Iran, and judging by how the State Department intervened to change Twitter's downtime, the administration is firmly in the protesters camp.

But we cannot intervene directly or else we would undermine domestic support for the opposition groups when they need it most.

The Mossad probably knows a lot more than the CIA, but they're not saying.

84 haakondahl  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:11:21am

re: #61 Killgore Trout

We've been active on the ground in Iran for decades. The CIA and the NSA are very well informed about what's going on there and are probably very involved.

We don't seem to have been well-informed for quite a long time. From the collapse of the USSR to the visas and plane tickets for 9/11, it certainly feels like we are flying blind. And I would say that the only consistent theme across administrations is an inability to respond adequately to events which should not have surprised us. The root of that is bad intel, or badly filtered intel.

85 notutopia  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:11:40am

re: #65 reloadingisnotahobby

I wouldn't carry a weapon to demonstrtion!
An armed coup...YES!

?
The opposition military is carrying and using them to murder innocent demonstrators.
?

86 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:11:54am

re: #72 Charles

Anything is possible. But it seems that the popular opinion is otherwise.

87 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:11:57am

re: #73 Dar ul Harb

If that turns out to be true, I just might have to develop some grudging respect for our naive Marxist-in-Chief.

Thats the thing. If the gov is doing its job, we should never find out.

88 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:12:09am

I can only imagine what punches Obama is pulling round about now micromanaging CIA operatives.

89 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:12:15am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

Yes, and we have also heard from several other 'reliable sources" that the election was rigged and that Ahmadinehad lost the election. We really don't know what happened.

90 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:12:40am
91 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:12:43am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

I've seen that claim but I don't know if I buy it. If the vast majority of the population support Ahmadinejad then why aren't they holding their own rallies? Why are the protests so large with no counter protests? It just doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

92 John Neverbend  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:12:54am

re: #33 Killgore Trout

We are almost certainly helping, interfering and meddling. Just because Obama isn't foaming at the mouth with rhetoric doesn't mean that nothing is going on.

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Iranians, Iranian Americans, journalists, and Iranian national security experts all agree that the last thing Iranian demonstrators need is U.S. interference.

I suspect that Obama is not interfering, for reasons that were spelled out in a Washington Post article that appeared yesterday.

93 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:12:57am

re: #76 Kenneth

Hitler made much of one of his supporters that was killed by some Communists. He used it as a rallying point in his rise to power.

94 haakondahl  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:13:01am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

That matters less to me than it should.

95 Jack_Ita  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:13:08am

re: #23 formercorpsman

I hope in my heart of hearts, this is not an exercise in futility.

As well, albeit I do not own a firearm, I think this demonstrates clearly why the founders here wanted a nation equipped & able to fight back if need be.

It is time for this theocracy in Iran to die off.

I wholeheartedly agree. I really feel for the protesters. They are not really asking too much.
They just don't want a national leadership that is willing to let an entire country die in a blaze of nuclear glory. And they do not want to be fooled either.

96 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:13:16am

re: #81 aRedPhishHead

I forget where and whence, but I once read a debate in a comment thread between a pretty rabid leftist and a few other commentors. The topic was about the subjugation that Islamic regimes often force on their people and their women in particular.

One of the commenters asked the leftist if he would prefer that such a draconian set of primitive "laws" would be acceptable here in America should they be "voted" into practice, and he merely replied that "I'd rather live on my knees than die on my feet."

I laughed with pity.

Pretty much sums it all up right there.

Dennis Prager said that he has observed that at the heart of every liberal is physical cowardice. How anyone can look at Obama and NOT believe that, is beyond me.

97 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:13:34am

re: #85 notutopia

My point was ....If your going to arm yourself ...be one of MANY!
Otherwise your a body bag stuffer!
You'd be dropped by the first armed security thug....

98 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:13:39am

re: #90 buzzsawmonkey

Which is why we got caught with our pants down not only when the mullahs took power, but when their proxies killed the Marines in Beirut, etc., etc.

Oh, I'm sure the CIA is just fabulously informed about the situation in Iran.

Watch out, you will have your patriotism questioned uttering facts like that.

99 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:14:04am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

I noted that as a distinct possibility a couple days ago.

100 JohnnyReb  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:14:04am

re: #61 Killgore Trout

We've been active on the ground in Iran for decades. The CIA and the NSA are very well informed about what's going on there and are probably very involved.


That is 100% pure and complete BS@! You pulled that straight out of your butt. We have at best meager assets on the ground in Iran and have had a terribly difficult time in getting agents in after the revolution. The CIA keeps complaining about our ability to field agents in the ME overall and not just Iran. We keep getting blindsided by event there since Hussein invaded Kuwait.

101 haakondahl  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:14:08am

re: #79 Killgore Trout

How patriotic of you.

KT, that seems unnecessary. And odd, considering the source.

102 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:14:13am

re: #91 Killgore Trout

I've seen that claim but I don't know if I buy it. If the vast majority of the population support Ahmadinejad then why aren't they holding their own rallies? Why are the protests so large with no counter protests? It just doesn't pass the sniff test for me.

Mousavi won in the urban centers where mass protests can be organized. Ahmadinejad won in rural areas.

103 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:14:41am

re: #89 Kenneth

In fact, there are three general scenarios that should be kept in mind. The first is that Ahmadinejad stole the election, in conjunction with the mullahs. The second is that there was a coup, and Ahmadinejad kept Khamenei on as a figurehead and to preserve the facade of power. The third is that Ahmadinejad actually won the election because Tehran is not the entirety of the country of Iran. Just because Ahmadinejad lost Tehran doesn't mean that he didn't lose the rest of the country.

Right now, there's insufficient information to discern which of these scenarios carries the most weight. A coup and a purification of the Islamic revolution are both plausible. Stealing elections isn't unheard of, but Iranian elections are generally seen as clean, so this would be a first.

104 zelnaga  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:15:00am

Why are Mousavi's supporters drawn to him over Ahmadinejad? Ahmadinejad wants Iran to get nukes. Does Mousavi not want that?

What kinds of freedoms is Mousavi proposing the Iranian people have that they don't currently have? Mousavi was endorsed by the United States, I think, so based on that, alone, he seems like the better candidate, but beyond that, I don't know anything about him. I mean, as is, I'm almost wondering if people in Iran see him as some of Obama's supporters saw Obama - as a messiah or something. Obama's supporters wound up being disappointed (since he didn't immediately pull out of Iraq, put Bush and Cheney on trial for war crimes, etc) and I'm just wondering if Mousavi's supporters would wind up similarly disappointed if Mousavi became president.

Finally, it seems to me that if Ahmadinejad wanted to stay in power, he could do what Vladimir Putin did. ie. go from being President to Prime Minister. He didn't really step down - he just changed the name of the position he held so as to maintain the illusion of democracy (in so far as it seems to me). Couldn't Ahmadinejad do the same thing? The world would probably be worse off for it, but it seems to me that it'd be in his own self-interest to do something like that, all the same.

105 John Neverbend  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:15:07am

re: #93 Shr_Nfr

Hitler made much of one of his supporters that was killed by some Communists. He used it as a rallying point in his rise to power.

That was Horst Wessel of the eponymous song.

106 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:15:17am

re: #93 Shr_Nfr

Hitler made much of one of his supporters that was killed by some Communists. He used it as a rallying point in his rise to power.

An insightful story about HItler is how he used a private military to off his political adversaries on his rise to power. When he finally made it to the top, he called in his most loyal head of this execution group and did the job personally in a hotel room.

107 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:15:23am

I'm not excusing anything...but a molitov cocktail throw would be shot in an L.A. riot.....And did!

108 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:15:28am

re: #82 lawhawk

There is a real debate to be had and strategy and rhetoric. However, much of what I see is reflexive anti-Obama instinct. I think conservatives paint themselves into some really difficult corners by opposing everything Obama does because sometimes he's right. I also object to the tone of trying to make our president appear weak.

109 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:16:00am

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Conservatives’ Dangerous Iran Response Runs Off the Rails

Let's see let's see.

The National Security Network.

Stanley S. Arkin
Samuel R. Berger
Wesley Clark
Rose Gottemoeller
Charles A. Kupchan
Hassan Nemazee
Lester Pollack
Theodore C. Sorensen
Frank G. Wisner

Connections connections agendas agendas.

This is fun.

This is NSN's 11-part examination of George W. Bush's national security and foreign policy legacy.

The sorry national security legacy of the Bush administration can be measured in in the President’s failure to meet his own rhetorical objectives: “victory” in Iraq, an Afghanistan cleansed of terrorists, a Middle East transformed and democratic, a US military strengthened, a global economy rejuvenated and a world in which democracy and freedom are “on the march.” It can also be charted in the renewal of terrorism, religious extremism and violence emanating from Central and South Asia, the Middle East, Africa and Central Asia about which the administration can or will do little; the disintegration of our closest alliances and rise of states openly hostile to us in our own hemisphere. Perhaps most starkly it is marked in domestic and world public opinion, where President Bush plummeted from the highest – to lowest-ranked President in the history of public opinion research, and took global regard for the US to uncharted lows. This dramatic decline, the largest in history, can be attributed first and foremost to the President’s failed national security policies. While economic failure will undoubtedly mar the Bush’s legacy, it is his foreign policy which will define George W. Bush as one of the worst presidents in American history.

No agenda there.

Now, maybe later a can google everyone one of the board, and see any, let's say, Questionable connections to other left WING dubiuosly funded groups.

110 Gus  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:16:21am

re: #98 FurryOldGuyJeans

Watch out, you will have your patriotism questioned uttering facts like that.

Sort of reminds me of move on dot org sometimes.

111 Gang of One  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:16:29am

re: #1 CIA Reject

"Prague Spring" reloaded...

I pray it does not turn into Tlatelolco 1968.

112 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:16:37am

re: #108 Killgore Trout

He is doing a lot of the painting himself, no meddling with Iran and extreme meddling with Israel.

113 capitalist piglet  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:16:42am

re: #108 Killgore Trout

There is a real debate to be had and strategy and rhetoric. However, much of what I see is reflexive anti-Obama instinct. I think conservatives paint themselves into some really difficult corners by opposing everything Obama does because sometimes he's right. I also object to the tone of trying to make our president appear weak.

So now we're making him appear weak?

Now I've heard everything. Good frigging grief.

114 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:16:48am
115 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:16:58am
116 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:17:08am

Everyone see how the Feds are demands names, and IP addresses and more of anonymous commenters in a Las Vegas newspaper. Paper is fighting it.

117 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:17:40am

re: #100 JohnnyReb

That is 100% pure and complete BS@! You pulled that straight out of your butt. We have at best meager assets on the ground in Iran and have had a terribly difficult time in getting agents in after the revolution.


Members of my family have been on the ground in Iran post revolution. I personally know quite a few people who have. It's usually a bad move to assume what other know.

118 MikeAlv77  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:17:54am

re: #116 DistantThunder

Everyone see how the Feds are demands names, and IP addresses and more of anonymous commenters in a Las Vegas newspaper. Paper is fighting it.

Linky?

119 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:18:07am

re: #108 Killgore Trout

President Obama's tone has been weak. It was belated, and it was insufficient. Those are the facts. The words he's used to describe the situation in Iran are far less urgent than those he used to describe the political situation in New Jersey's race for Governor.

It's perspective and priorities, and Obama doesn't look good at all.

120 Jack_Ita  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:18:30am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

I have my doubts.
Not on the fact that Ahmadinejad would not have eventually won these elections.
But on the fact these elections were not rigged. Too many factors against the government (ballots burned, party observers banned from polls, polls closed, almost-miraculous ballot count...)

121 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:18:37am

re: #83 Kosh's Shadow

The Mossad probably knows a lot more than the CIA, but they're not saying.

The Mossad doesn't want their intel on the front page of the NYT.

122 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:18:50am

re: #69 FurryOldGuyJeans

The same CIA and NSA that screwed the pooch regarding Iraqi WMDs? Excuse me while I laugh at your assertion of competence.

Saddam successfully fooled the entire world. All Agencies (not just US spooks) believe they existed. They may have actually existed to some extent and may exited via Syria, with plans to retrieve when the action ended.

123 Gearhead  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:19:20am

re: #115 taxfreekiller

Flys now have great fear.

Clinton had problems with flies, too...

124 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:19:28am

re: #108 Killgore Trout


I also object to the tone of trying to make our president appear weak.

This is all happening because of the US appears strong!

We are strong, so the Norks won't test their nukes.
They won't fire off missiles - especially over Japan and towards occupied Hawaii.

125 dhg4  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:19:53am

On Sunday Thomas Friedman wrote:

Third, the Bush team opened a hole in the wall of Arab autocracy but did a poor job following through. In the vacuum, the parties most organized to seize power were the Islamists — Hezbollah in Lebanon; pro-Al Qaeda forces among Iraqi Sunnis, and the pro-Iranian Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq and Mahdi Army among Iraqi Shiites; the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan; Hamas in Gaza.
. . .
Finally, along came President Barack Hussein Obama. Arab and Muslim regimes found it very useful to run against George Bush. The Bush team demonized them, and they demonized the Bush team. Autocratic regimes, like Iran’s, drew energy and legitimacy from that confrontation, and it made it very easy for them to discredit anyone associated with America. Mr. Obama’s soft power has defused a lot of that. As result, “pro-American” is not such an insult anymore.

But is it the demonstrators whom President Obama has encouraged or the regime?

126 aRedPhishHead  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:20:00am

re: #123 Gearhead

Clinton had problems with flies, too...

OOOooohh!

127 notutopia  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:20:08am

Ball Of Confusion
The Temptations

128 SurferDoc  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:20:20am

re: #108 Killgore Trout

There is a real debate to be had and strategy and rhetoric. However, much of what I see is reflexive anti-Obama instinct. I think conservatives paint themselves into some really difficult corners by opposing everything Obama does because sometimes he's right. I also object to the tone of trying to make our president appear weak.

He is weak. By design and by nature. The cost to the world and us of his weakness will be paid in blood.

129 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:20:26am
130 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:21:35am

re: #116 DistantThunder

Everyone see how the Feds are demands names, and IP addresses and more of anonymous commenters in a Las Vegas newspaper. Paper is fighting it.


IIRC, that was from actual threats, not people like us who just tell the politicians to STFU.

131 DistantThunder  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:21:40am

re: #120 Jack_Ita

I have my doubts.
Not on the fact that Ahmadinejad would not have eventually won these elections.
But on the fact these elections were not rigged. Too many factors against the government (ballots burned, party observers banned from polls, polls closed, almost-miraculous ballot count...)

People have sent screen shots of news broadcasts of the vote totals going down for the opposition later in the evening. Screwy.

132 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:22:21am

re: #119 lawhawk

President Obama's tone has been weak. It was belated, and it was insufficient. Those are the facts. The words he's used to describe the situation in Iran are far less urgent than those he used to describe the political situation in New Jersey's race for Governor.

It's perspective and priorities, and Obama doesn't look good at all.

I think that's been the problem with right wing coverage of the story. It's not all about Obama. There are real things happening and not everything can be twisted to make Obama look bad.
Let's suppose that Charles is right and the elections were legitimate. How is Obama publicly supporting the overthrow of a legitimately elected government going to help? There are a lot of possibilities. They know what's going on and maybe they're handling the situation correctly. I don't think the right is going to score any big points out of this situation and they might even damage themselves while attempting it.

133 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:22:28am

re: #1 CIA Reject

I'd rather see Romania 1989 reloaded.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

134 Gearhead  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:23:15am

I'm not qualified to plumb the depths of all the possible the scenarios that could be playing out, and what the consequences might be. I just know what I'm hoping and praying for: for the Iranians to be free of the thugocracy and for a peaceful Iran that doesn't promote terror and violence.

(who had the soapbox next?)

135 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:23:19am

re: #123 Gearhead

Clinton had problems with flies, too...

Was that fly Mirandized before it was demised?

136 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:23:20am

re: #82 lawhawk
Democrat pundits are accusing Republicans of being unwise in their intemperate support of democracy & freedom in Iran. This attitude presupposes the essential leftist world view of America as a malign influence nobody likes. That is certainly not true in Iran, where the US is well liked by a majority of the population.

The Bush policy of isolation and honesty about the essential evil nature of the Iranian regime did indeed help bring Iran to this crisis. The pressures of the economic sanctions has weakened Ahmadinjad's support, while increasing the scope for corruption in Iran, further delegitimized the regime.

If the Democratic policy of engagement and rapprochement with Iran which Clinton had pushed had been continued under Bush, the regime would be safe today.

137 JohnnyReb  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:23:50am

re: #117 Killgore Trout

Members of my family have been on the ground in Iran post revolution. I personally know quite a few people who have. It's usually a bad move to assume what other know.

You made an unqualified statement that can neither be proven nor disproven. And now you attempt to defend it by saying you know numerous undercover CIA agents that deploy to Iran personally and they are in your family? If that was/is true you know better than to say that in a public forum. I am going to have to toss the BS flag.

138 zombie  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:24:49am

re: #19 MikeAlv77

Or even a few colonials signing a declaration against the largest empire on earth

But that's an interesting point:

There are two kinds of revolution -- those that require military force (an actual army), and those that don't.

The American Revolution and the Chinese Revolution of course required a standing army to defeat those entrenched in power.

But the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution, which admittedly later devolved into war and which did indeed involve armies, both at first were "people's uprisings" with no standing army to force the regime's hand. There are similar examples as well -- Prague Spring, Solidarity in Poland, etc.

And then there's the third category -- "revolutions" that necessitate the intervention of a foreign army (i.e. Iraq in 2003-5, for example).

Which will this be? Time will tell.

But just because there is no army backing this revolution at the moment, doesn't mean it's doomed to fail.

139 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:25:00am

Power will only be pried from the Mullah's cold dead hands.

140 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:25:02am

re: #132 Killgore Trout

No one here that I have read has been saying they want Obama to public support the overthrow of the Iranian Regime, they want the POTUS to promote American Ideals of freedom, human rights, and free and fair elections.

There is a difference.

141 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:25:08am

re: #120 Jack_Ita

I have my doubts.
Not on the fact that Ahmadinejad Frankin would not have eventually won these elections.
But on the fact these elections were not rigged. Too many factors against the government (ballots burned, party observers banned from polls, polls closed, almost-miraculous ballot count...)

142 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:25:13am
143 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:25:17am

Here's how you know there's a chance:

The Basij have now begun to cover their faces, whereas previously they hadn’t. This indicates they are becoming more scared of retaliation from the general public. Also, we have heard that cell phone service is cut off at night. There have been efforts to identify members of the Basij who have used violence against demonstrators, through facebook and other social networking websites.

It’s interesting to see some in the feared militias themselves becoming afraid of retaliation.

Once the thugs become afraid to show their face, then you know that on the ground, there is some understanding that the tide is shifting.

And really, What should Obama be doing at this point? sending troops in? promising tanks and air support? Jump up and down and express just how much the US Government supports the rebellion? I'm sure that'd help the nacent rebellion win the general population over to their side /sarcasm

144 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:25:44am

re: #132 Killgore Trout

I think that's been the problem with right wing coverage of the story. It's not all about Obama. There are real things happening and not everything can be twisted to make Obama look bad.
Let's suppose that Charles is right and the elections were legitimate. How is Obama publicly supporting the overthrow of a legitimately elected government going to help? There are a lot of possibilities. They know what's going on and maybe they're handling the situation correctly. I don't think the right is going to score any big points out of this situation and they might even damage themselves while attempting it.


1. BARACK OBAMA IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

2. LEGITIMATELY ELECTED GOVERNMENT?


Iran is a democracy now? The only legitimately elected government in the ME is in Israel and the Obama administration is 100% trying to reverse that election.

145 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:26:03am
146 NukeAtomrod  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:26:19am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

Maybe. But, how can we know? If it is true, then the Iranian populace agree with Ahmadinejad in his stance towards Israel-- contrary to popular belief. And the argument for intervention by the Israel and/or the USA to stop Iran's nuclear program becomes very compelling.

147 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:27:07am

May the Persians, source of some great poets, get out from under the oppressive imposition of islam, which is Arab.

148 Dar ul Harb  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:27:12am

re: #87 Creeping Eruption

Thats the thing. If the gov is doing its job, we should never find out.

Well, if the New York Times hasn't let the secret out yet, it's probably because they haven't been able to figure out a way of maximally harming U.S. interests while simulteneously protecting Obama.

149 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:27:27am

The 'election' is nonsense rigged or not.

They are not electing their executive power. They are electing a stooge to handle budgets and make speeches.

Iran is a tyranny ruled by Khameni and enforced by the Revolutionary Guards that he controls.

150 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:28:14am

re: #132 Killgore Trout

I think that's been the problem with right wing coverage of the story. It's not all about Obama. There are real things happening and not everything can be twisted to make Obama look bad.
Let's suppose that Charles is right and the elections were legitimate. How is Obama publicly supporting the overthrow of a legitimately elected government going to help? There are a lot of possibilities. They know what's going on and maybe they're handling the situation correctly. I don't think the right is going to score any big points out of this situation and they might even damage themselves while attempting it.

If you've been following my comments on this all along, there is a way for Obama to show solidarity with the demonstrators and opponents of Ahmadinejad without jumping in bed with them. The free and open elections is a critical element, and focusing on that doesn't give Ahmadinejad room to argue that the US is interfering, and it still keeps the focus on the fact that the opposition believes the elections were bogus - and that the US is focusing on them.

151 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:28:30am

re: #132 Killgore Trout

I think that's been the problem with right wing coverage of the story. It's not all about Obama. There are real things happening and not everything can be twisted to make Obama look bad.
Let's suppose that Charles is right and the elections were legitimate. How is Obama publicly supporting the overthrow of a legitimately elected government going to help? There are a lot of possibilities. They know what's going on and maybe they're handling the situation correctly. I don't think the right is going to score any big points out of this situation and they might even damage themselves while attempting it.

The government in Iran hasn't been legitimate in 3 decades. Certainly the last election was not legitimate.

Legitimacy stems from consent of the governed.

Fear is not consent.

152 Baier  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:28:40am

The vote was rigged not matter what the outcome because the candidates are chosen by the 'Supreme Commander, nor is there freedom of speech or press. It's a sham. A hoax. A phony democratic election.
There is no way to have a fair election under such circumstances, even if the vote is accurate.

153 Gearhead  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:28:51am

re: #135 n in wi

Was that fly Mirandized before it was demised?

Nope, but it was televised.

154 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:29:13am
155 itellu3times  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:29:17am

I will say again, the issue regarding futility is not whether something will succeed - if you don't have anything you're working towards. What do the people really want, Mousavi instead of Achmadinejad? Is that worth dying for? No.

HOWEVER, keeping even the semplance of a democracy, versus what is looking more and more like a dictatorial power grab by Achmadinejad - THAT may just be worth fighting for. And maybe Mousavi gets to be the beneficiary of this, not that he's all that hot stuff, but he's not-Achmadinejad.

So, I'm skeptical, but just maybe Nutjob has reached too far and something will happen after all.

156 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:29:19am

OT - Another "ignore the elephant in the room" moment:

Analysts: NKorea's chemical arms as grave as nukes
Jun 18 12:38 PM US/Eastern
By JAE-SOON CHANG
Associated Press Writer

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - North Korea's massive stockpile of chemical weapons is as threatening as its nuclear program, analysts said Thursday, highlighting an aspect of the secretive regime's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction that is rarely talked about.

157 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:29:32am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

Too many arguments to think Ahmalphabet won, let alone by a large majority. One that gets over looked, is that Mousavi was tracking the results in a parallel tabulation system that showed him ahead, and then was forced out of their election headquarters and forced to shut their tabulation system down, and then right after that, Ahmalphabet was suddenly winning by a landslide.

More information showing some fairly strong support for Fraud

158 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:29:52am

re: #125 dhg4

On Sunday Thomas Friedman wrote:

But is it the demonstrators whom President Obama has encouraged or the regime?

Friedman (typically) misses the point that the US continued to be very popular among the Iranian people all through the Bush years.

159 Ojoe  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:30:33am

re: #154 taxfreekiller

That is not a right vs left thing. IMO.

It is a good vs. evil thing.

160 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:31:02am

re: #135 n in wi

Was that fly Mirandized before it was demised?

Did BHO shake hands with the interviewer at the end of the interview?

161 Mike McDaniel  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:31:03am

re: #10 zombie

One could have said the same about the crowds trying to storm the Bastille in 1789, or staging impotent rallies in St. Petersburg in 1917.

Everything seems futile until it succeeds.

No, everything seems futile - until you get some real firepower. And a few well-armed friends. :-D

162 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:31:04am

From a story on the Globe and Mail of Canada:

Mr. Mousavi alleges the Guardian Council is not neutral and has already indicated it supports Mr. Ahmadinejad. He wants an independent investigation.

------

If the Guardian Council is canned, the mullatocracy is over.

163 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:31:07am

Assuming that the elections are Legitimate (and I take the idea witha Salt Lick or 1000), I don't think the Iranians care anymore. They've been beaten and bruised, and bloodied enough where they want Dinnjerjacket GONE. and if this keeps up they will be talking "Down with Mullahs and the Shah. Opposite Sides of the Coin", or some such

it's going to get bloody

164 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:31:34am

re: #150 lawhawk

Repost...

The View from the Gulag
From the June 21, 2004 issue: An interview with Natan Sharansky: He describes the "beautiful moment" when the news of the Evil Empire speech reached Siberia.

I have to laugh. People who take freedom for granted, Ronald Reagan for granted, always ask such questions. Of course! It was the great brilliant moment when we learned that Ronald Reagan had proclaimed the Soviet Union an Evil Empire before the entire world. There was a long list of all the Western leaders who had lined up to condemn the evil Reagan for daring to call the great Soviet Union an evil empire right next to the front-page story about this dangerous, terrible man who wanted to take the world back to the dark days of the Cold War. This was the moment. It was the brightest, most glorious day.
165 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:32:13am

re: #144 Ben Hur

1. BARACK OBAMA IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

2. LEGITIMATELY ELECTED GOVERNMENT?

Iran is a democracy now? The only legitimately elected government in the ME is in Israel and the Obama administration is 100% trying to reverse that election.

Lebanon & Iraq have legitimately elected governments.

166 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:32:30am

re: #153 Gearhead

Nope, but it was televised.


So you surmise

167 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:32:47am

re: #165 Kenneth

Lebanon & Iraq have legitimately elected governments.


I'm pretty sure the Imams have to OK the lists in Leb, no?

168 Digital Display  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:33:08am

Hi ya Lizards! How is everyone this fine Thursday?
Sure wish it would stop raining here

169 laZardo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:33:12am

I suspect that these protests were strictly urban in the first place, and that the biggest base of Ahmadinejad's support was out in the rural areas.

/and how are we all this evening?

170 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:33:21am

re: #167 Ben Hur

I'm pretty sure the Imams have to OK the lists in Leb, no?


Maybe that's only within each party, (if they have Imams).

171 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:33:29am

OT - Too bad the voters won't elevate her to the supreme position of EX-Senator:

Barbara Boxer: Please Call Me 'Senator'
Posted:
06/17/09
Filed Under:The Capitolist

Overheard at a Senate hearing yesterday:

"Could you say 'senator' instead of 'ma'am?' It's just a thing. I worked so hard to get that title. I'd appreciate it."

--Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) to Brigadier General Michael Walsh during Senate hearing Tuesday, when he the general repeatedly said, "Yes, ma'am," and "No, ma'am," when answering Boxer's questions at hearing she chaired on New Orleans' levee system.

172 3 wood  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:33:52am

OT:

The market is up about 1% at the moment, but 10 year bond rates are also up to 3.82%.

Oil is still rising as well

173 Gearhead  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:33:54am

re: #166 n in wi

So you surmise

Seen it with my own 'ize'

/sorry, folks. I'll stop.

174 filetandrelease  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:34:10am

Does anyone believe that if the "O" came out forcefully in some way in support of the demonstrators that the pundits who now say the "O"s restraint is the right thing do, would say he is making a mistake by supporting the demonstrators?

If you answer yes to this question, have I got a deal for you.

To be clear, I am not referencing analysis read here by posters.

175 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:34:19am

re: #167 Ben Hur

Which imams?

176 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:34:23am

re: #168 HoosierHoops

Hi ya Lizards! How is everyone this fine Thursday?
Sure wish it would stop raining here

Hoops!

Record setting day in Seattle; 29 consecutive dry days.

177 laZardo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:34:43am

Also, OT: I don't get how a national health care system would "monopolize" health care. It would give private insurers much-needed competition and at least keep the pharmaceutical industry running.

178 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:10am

OT: So is there a good place to throw in that Wilders is planning a follow-up to Fitna? Its to focus on Israel. That should help her cause./

Dutch anti-Islam MP: 'Israel is West's first line of defense'

179 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:13am

re: #169 laZardo

I suspect that these protests were strictly urban in the first place, and that the biggest base of Ahmadinejad's support was out in the rural areas.

/and how are we all this evening?

It is most likely, but the previous revolution, 1979, was also urbane, IIRC. And it would not be alone in that regard. The French Revolution started as Paris bread riots.

180 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:15am

re: #171 FurryOldGuyJeans

Video of the "Call me Senator!" incident.

181 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:27am

Interesting:

Questions grow as Ahmadinejad stays out of sight
Speculation over whereabouts of Iranian president, who has not been seen since Monday

From that link:
'Speculation is intensifying about the whereabouts of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who claimed victory in the Iranian presidential election but has not been seen in public since Monday, when he was in Russia for a conference.

Iranian media have reported only that the president was greeted by a number of senior government officials when he arrived home late on Tuesday.

Ahmadinejad's last public appearance in Iran was on Sunday, when he gave a combative press conference at his Tehran office for foreign and local media, and compared the supporters of the defeated election candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi to football fans whose team had lost.

He then addressed a crowd of tens of thousands of supporters at Vali Asr square in the centre of the capital.

Analysts and diplomats say that the fact that Ahmadinejad has not been seen for three days as street protests and political turmoil rage suggests his position may have been weakened. Rallies backing him have been far less well attended than those organised by the Mousavi camp.'

182 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:32am

re: #164 jcm

Is it possible the people of Iran are encouraged by what they see their neighbors in Iraq and Afghanistan have?

183 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:43am

re: #104 zelnaga

Mousavi's supporters are drawn him by the reason I noted earlier. The ultimate goal of Dinnerjacket is to throw even the pretense of an election down the hopper. It would be basically raw dictatorial rule without even the 99% voted for Saddam when the ballot was:

[] Do you approve of Saddam for president?
[] Do you want to be dead?

184 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:35:49am

KT:

Besides, if the idea is that the Administration shouldn't be meddling in the internal affairs of other nations, why then is the left jubilant over Obama's demands on Israel to make still more concessions and rid itself of settlements at every opportunity? That's meddling in the internal affairs of an ally with a big stick. But on Iran, Obama has to speak softly?

Sorry, but there's quite a bit of cognitive dissonance with this administration when it comes to foreign policy and no place greater is that dissonance than in dealing with the Middle East, where he's demanding Israel make concessions for the sake of peace with terror-regimes of Hamas and Fatah, both of which refuse to accept Israel as a Jewish state as a 2-state solution. Focusing on settlements is a nonstarter, since settlements were never the stumbling block - only in the psuedorealistic world of the diplomats was the idea that a bunch of buildings was the stumbling bloc (Sinai via Camp David and the 2005 disengagement from Gaza are proof positive that settlements aren't the problem).

Iran has a thug as a leader. It's foolish to ignore that salient point. The thug in charge now is more evil than some of his predecessors, but only by degree. His genocidal rhetoric takes it up a notch, and is matched by his regime's call for nuclear technologies.

This is with whom Obama thinks he can carry on a dialog? Sorry, but Ahmadinejad senses only weakness in that approach, and will exploit it by enabling his regime to have still more time to obtain the very technologies that enable him to carry through with his genocidal rhetoric.

185 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:36:00am

re: #172 3 wood

OT:

The market is up about 1% at the moment, but 10 year bond rates are also up to 3.82%.

Oil is still rising as well

Oil is probably up more on the events in Iran than anything else, I'd assume.

186 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:36:07am

re: #176 jcm

Hoops!

Record setting day in Seattle; 29 consecutive dry days.

jcm, it was actually sprinkling here in the South Sound!

187 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:36:17am
188 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:36:38am

re: #169 laZardo

I suspect that these protests were strictly urban in the first place, and that the biggest base of Ahmadinejad's support was out in the rural areas.

/and how are we all this evening?


Actually, I read the opposite this morning.

MICHAEL TOTTEN: Ahmadinejad: A Man Of The Cities. “Cities everywhere in the world are more broadly liberal and cosmopolitan than small towns and villages. Rural areas in the Middle East are often startlingly conservative, especially from the point of view of Western visitors like me and my colleagues in the media. This does not mean, however, that country people are more likely to support fascist political movements. Egypt’s Bedouin, for instance, are far more open-minded about and friendly toward Jews and Israelis than are the denizens of cities like Cairo. Backers of the Iraqi insurgency were based primarily in urban areas like Baghdad, Ramadi, and Fallujah. And as Nate Silver documents with hard data at FiveThirtyEight, even in 2005 most of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s supporters lived in Iranian cities, not the countryside.”

[Link: pajamasmedia.com...]

189 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:36:43am

re: #165 Kenneth

Yes, Iraq now basically does. Lebanon is a bit more cloudy, but its certainly close now.

190 KenJen  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:36:44am

re: #168 HoosierHoops

Hi ya Lizards! How is everyone this fine Thursday?
Sure wish it would stop raining here

Hi Hoops. We got hammered here in Louisville. More to come later. How's your vacation going?

191 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:36:56am

re: #173 Gearhead

That would be wise

192 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:37:08am

Here's another possibility: Suppose Charles is correct and the election was real. This whole thing might have been engineered foreign intelligence agencies. I think that's unlikely but anything is possible.
We have no real idea of what's going on and where this is headed.

193 Digital Display  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:37:18am

re: #176 jcm

Hoops!

Record setting day in Seattle; 29 consecutive dry days.

JCM! I heard on the weather report this morning that it hasn't happened since 1992 or 1982....Enjoy the drought!
How are you today?

194 Gearhead  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:37:23am

re: #180 FurryOldGuyJeans

Video of the "Call me Senator!" incident.

Humility is dead.

195 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:37:34am

re: #176 jcm

Hoops!

Record setting day in Seattle; 29 consecutive dry days.

You can have some of ours. We got 4 inches in two hours on Tuesday on already waterlogged ground. Made for an interesting afternoon commute.

196 itellu3times  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:37:34am

re: #172 3 wood

OT:

The market is up about 1% at the moment, but 10 year bond rates are also up to 3.82%.

Oil is still rising as well

summer doldrums I think.

197 NukeAtomrod  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:37:36am

re: #122 unrealizedviewpoint

They may have actually existed to some extent and may exited via Syria, with plans to retrieve when the action ended.

That's where the smart money's at. And I think Saddam was betting on France and their other Oil Voucher bought U.N. buddies to stop the fight quickly through political pressure. He never expected the main invasion to be finished in less than 48 hours. He had a huge armed forces, but none of the Iraqi troops were willing to die for him. So, when push came to shove, he had no defense.

198 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:15am

re: #181 yma o hyd

Interesting.

199 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:18am

re: #182 n in wi

Is it possible the people of Iran are encouraged by what they see their neighbors in Iraq and Afghanistan have?

Iran is now actually surrounded by democracies.

200 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:24am

re: #175 Kenneth

Which imams?

I'm not sure.

I read a report a while back.

Must've been just within the Hizballah, or something.

Forget it.

201 lawhawk  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:24am

re: #170 Ben Hur

Lebanon doesn't need the mullahs to approve the political slate - not when there is a significant Christian (Maronite) population there. Some of the parties, including Hizbullah may need the mullahs seal of approval, but that's for their individual slates.

202 Kragar  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:29am

re: #171 FurryOldGuyJeans

OT - Too bad the voters won't elevate her to the supreme position of EX-Senator:

Barbara Boxer: Please Call Me 'Senator'
Posted:
06/17/09
Filed Under:The Capitolist

"Senator, my title is General."

203 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:30am

re: #170 Ben Hur

Maybe that's only within each party, (if they have Imams).

Links to Political Parties in Lebanon

* Amal
* Democratic Renewal Movement
* Free Patriotic Movement
* Future Movement
* Green Party
* Hizbollah
* Jebha
* Kataeb
* Lebanese Democratic Party
* Lebanese Forces
* Lebanese Option
* Lebanon Green Party
* Marada
* Movement for Islamic Unity
* National Liberal Party
* Progressive Socialist Party
* Syrian Socialist Nationalist Party
* The Guardians of the Cedars

In Lebanon, there are Christian, Druze, Sunni, Shia, Marxist and several other parties of various religious, ethnic and ideological stripe. To insist that "the imams" approve the candidates list, is sheer ignorance, my friend.

204 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:31am

re: #187 taxfreekiller

3-Wood

What's up with the Kennedy Bonds needing smuggling?

Billions,

500 Million Kennedy Bonds, in a fake bottom suit case....

Japan Mob Money?

No one seems to know yet. I thought it was more like 130 billion, not 500 million.

205 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:53am

re: #187 taxfreekiller

Can you imagine smuggling Barry Bonds in a suitcase? The "athlete" would be too big and if Obama issued them they would be worthless.

206 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:54am

From the Grauniad's live blog

'5.24pm:
A reader in Tehran reports that Iranian state television has begun a campaign to discredit Mousavi reporters by portraying them as unpatriotic trouble makers. This would follow Ahmadinejad's characterisation of the pro-Mousavi forces in the streets as "dirt and dust".

The television station has been asking people on the street about the effect the demonstrations have had on their lives. All interviewees condemn the protests as disruptive and violent.

About an hour ago, former Iranian Majlis (parliament) speaker Gholam-Ali Haddad Adel criticised Mousavi on state television for staging what he said were illegal demonstrations.

"Not a word of condemnation for plain clothed forces who ransacked the dormitories and killed at least five students," my source writes.

207 Digital Display  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:38:57am

re: #190 KenJen

Hi Hoops. We got hammered here in Louisville. More to come later. How's your vacation going?

Need more sun and Boating and less eating and drinking...
Be safe Jen....

208 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:39:14am
209 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:39:16am

re: #144 Ben Hur

1. BARACK OBAMA IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

2. LEGITIMATELY ELECTED GOVERNMENT?

Iran is a democracy now? The only legitimately elected government in the ME is in Israel and the Obama administration is 100% trying to reverse that election.

Iraq also has an elected government, and while it isn't perfect, it is a lot better than just about any other mideast country (after Israel, of course.)
Thanks to GWB.

210 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:39:18am

re: #182 n in wi

Is it possible the people of Iran are encouraged by what they see their neighbors in Iraq and Afghanistan have?

Yes indeed. They now see their Iraqi Shia brothers have free elections.

211 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:40:11am
212 johnnyreb  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:40:27am

re: #204 Creeping Eruption

No one seems to know yet. I thought it was more like 130 billion, not 500 million.


It was 153 billion IIRC. I head this AM that the two Japanese guys that got caught have since disappeared. apparently no one knows where they are.

213 laZardo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:40:54am

re: #210 Kenneth

I'd think it's a combination of both the Bush and Obama "effects." Bush for "bringing" democracy to these countries, Obama for purging the "ghosts of 2000" that ring eerily similar to what these Iranian protesters want.

214 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:04am

re: #208 taxfreekiller

Liberal method.

Change the subject.

...at the immediate second the facts cannot be disputed any longer.

215 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:10am

re: #199 unrealizedviewpoint

Iran is now actually surrounded by democracies.


Two of them prompted by the idiot Bush who destroyed our image around the world/////

216 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:13am

re: #182 n in wi

Is it possible the people of Iran are encouraged by what they see their neighbors in Iraq and Afghanistan have?

Very much so. The younger generation is fed up, in every way. Iran is one of the top net savvy countries and the young people are well informed.

My dad is still involved with short wave gospel radio into Iran, the response over that last decade has been huge. They see and know what the Mad Mullahs have wrought. I don't think there is any going back. The Mullahs may be able to put this down. But the revolution has started, it's the beginning of the end of the Mullahs. How the history of end is being written as we watch.

217 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:14am

re: #181 yma o hyd

Interesting:

Questions grow as Ahmadinejad stays out of sight
Speculation over whereabouts of Iranian president, who has not been seen since Monday

From that link:
'Speculation is intensifying about the whereabouts of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who claimed victory in the Iranian presidential election but has not been seen in public since Monday, when he was in Russia for a conference.

Iranian media have reported only that the president was greeted by a number of senior government officials when he arrived home late on Tuesday.

Ahmadinejad's last public appearance in Iran was on Sunday, when he gave a combative press conference at his Tehran office for foreign and local media, and compared the supporters of the defeated election candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi to football fans whose team had lost.

He then addressed a crowd of tens of thousands of supporters at Vali Asr square in the centre of the capital.

Analysts and diplomats say that the fact that Ahmadinejad has not been seen for three days as street protests and political turmoil rage suggests his position may have been weakened. Rallies backing him have been far less well attended than those organised by the Mousavi camp.'


Interesting. This must the last time from a week ago:

218 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:30am

re: #194 Gearhead

Where I come from its always Ma'am and Sir. I don't care if you are the minimum wage guy bagging groceries with an IQ of 10. Its "Thank you sir." We do not have titles in this country. It is imperious of her to think so.

219 [deleted]  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:31am
220 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:47am

re: #201 lawhawk

Lebanon doesn't need the mullahs to approve the political slate - not when there is a significant Christian (Maronite) population there. Some of the parties, including Hizbullah may need the mullahs seal of approval, but that's for their individual slates.

That's what I figured. Thanks.

221 iLikeCandy  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:41:56am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

Sad, but not terribly surprising.

222 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:42:21am

re: #213 laZardo

I'd think it's a combination of both the Bush and Obama "effects." Bush for "bringing" democracy to these countries, Obama for purging the "ghosts of 2000" that ring eerily similar to what these Iranian protesters want.

"ghosts of 2000"... WTF does that mean?

223 songbird  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:42:37am

re: #166 n in wi

So you surmise

To no one's surprise.

224 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:42:50am

re: #209 Kosh's Shadow

Iraq also has an elected government, and while it isn't perfect, it is a lot better than just about any other mideast country (after Israel, of course.)
Thanks to GWB.

Funny how Obama doesn't mention that in his list of things he has inherited.

225 Ben Hur  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:42:51am

re: #209 Kosh's Shadow

Iraq also has an elected government, and while it isn't perfect, it is a lot better than just about any other mideast country (after Israel, of course.)
Thanks to GWB.

Sorry.

It's a reflex.

Will get over it.

226 Digital Display  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:43:03am

re: #212 johnnyreb

It was 153 billion IIRC. I head this AM that the two Japanese guys that got caught have since disappeared. apparently no one knows where they are.

Maybe they were just mules....
Wish somebody gave me a 100 Billion to carry....I'd buy a remote Island....
Come and get me suckers! LOL

227 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:43:07am

re: #217 Ben Hur

He was supposed to have been traveling to someplace and then delayed his trip.

228 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:43:17am

re: #193 HoosierHoops

JCM! I heard on the weather report this morning that it hasn't happened since 1992 or 1982....Enjoy the drought!
How are you today?

Doing well, yelling at my It guys. We switched to Trend Office Micro Scan for virus scanning. For some reason it likes to run from 8 am to noon on my machine and takes a huge chunk of CPU time... I disable it but it's a logon script and resets itself....

229 Bloodnok  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:43:24am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

If that is the case then I have no problem with the administration's response whatsoever. As tempting as the current power vacuum is, while the ideals of freedom and liberty should be aired as often as possible in that part of the world, now would not be the time to instigate from afar. The US interfering with an elected regime (as unpleasant as they are and despite the process that gave Iranians the candidates) would not be looked upon very favorably.

And yes, even though the process is flawed in Iran if Charles' sources are correct the election followed the established rules Iran has in place. Do I believe it was rigged? I think it was. But I'm speaking from the position of IF what Charles source says is true.

230 yma o hyd  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:43:36am

re: #198 Killgore Trout

Interesting.

Very much so!

Another pointer for things going on behind the scenes in the Mullahcracy of which not much is getting out.

Methinks the old Kremlinologists need to dust down their skills for this situation.

231 laZardo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:43:40am

re: #222 Kenneth

The whole 2000 election debacle that brought Bush to power, the "ghosts" of which were purged in the 2008 election.

232 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:43:56am

re: #177 laZardo

Also, OT: I don't get how a national health care system would "monopolize" health care. It would give private insurers much-needed competition and at least keep the pharmaceutical industry running.

A government run insurance plan will be taxpayer subsidized, to keep it "affordable", thereby undercutting private insurers and ultimately creating a government monopoly. The government never competes on a level playing field. So called public-private partnerships always require subsidies from the taxpayer. Witness Fannie and Freddie.

233 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:44:08am

re: #224 n in wi

Funny how Obama doesn't mention that in his list of things he has inherited.

No kidding!

234 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:44:17am

OT - GW, please don't follow the partisan example of Clinton and Carter no matter how correct your assessment might be:

Thursday, June 18, 2009
Bush takes swipes at Obama policies
Joseph Curl (Contact)

ERIE, Pa.%P% Former President George W. Bush fired a salvo at President Obama on Wednesday, asserting his administration's interrogation policies were within the law, declaring the private sector -- not government -- will fix the economy and rejecting the nationalization of health care.

"I know it's going to be the private sector that leads this country out of the current economic times we're in," the former president said to applause from members of a local business group. "You can spend your money better than the government can spend your money."

Repeatedly in his hourlong speech and question-and-answer session, Mr. Bush said he would not directly criticize the new president, who has moved to take over financial institutions and several large corporations. Several times, however, he took direct aim at Obama policies as he defended his own during eight years in office.

235 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:45:01am

re: #212 johnnyreb

It was 153 billion IIRC. I head this AM that the two Japanese guys that got caught have since disappeared. apparently no one knows where they are.

SO you are using the term "caught" loosely? :) Pretty fucked up those are real.

236 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:45:11am

re: #231 laZardo

The whole 2000 election debacle that brought Bush to power, the "ghosts" of which were purged in the 2008 election.

You mean it was a bad thing when Bush won that election and the Supreme Court prevented Gore from stealing it? Obama did exactly what with that ghost?

237 Shr_Nfr  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:45:21am

re: #219 taxfreekiller

Not really. If you are doing a foreign debt fund, you might very well have that. Grantham Mayo Van Otterloo's various foreign debt funds have assets in the billions. Tom Cooper and Bill N. do a good job too. Normally, the bonds are held by a trustee bank however.

238 3 wood  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:45:32am

Here is an example of flawed reporting:


U.S. continuing jobless claims fall by 148,000

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- Continuing U.S. jobless claims took a big drop in the latest week, the Labor Department reported Thursday, in a sign that fewer people are having trouble finding employment.

Continuing claims fell by 148,000 to 6.68 million during the week ended June 6, the lowest level in about a month. The four-week average of continuing claims rose, however, by 2,250 to 6.75 million.

It was the first time continuing claims fell since early January.

The continuing claims drop "convincingly ended the 19-week string of new all-time highs, and may suggest that the more general rate of gain for these figures is diminishing," said analysts at Action Economics. "This slower rate of climb may signal that the uptrend in the jobless rate may soon slow as well."


Ummm, what they are missing in their report is the number of people who fell off the unemployment rolls because they exhausted their benefits.

Without that number, you can interpret this change just about any way you want.


I'm not saying that the writer has an agenda. I think the writer (and editor) does not know enough about these stats to know that.


Initial jobless claims rose:

Initial claims, meanwhile, rose slightly in the week ended June 13, up by 3,000 to a seasonally adjusted 608,000.


So that hope and change stimulus plan is still not working out.

239 unrealizedviewpoint  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:45:57am

re: #215 n in wi

Two of them prompted by the idiot Bush who destroyed our image around the world/////

Libs don't believe freedom is important enough to wage even the threat of violence.

240 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:46:27am

re: #234 FurryOldGuyJeans

I read that earlier but the title really doesn't match the content of the article.

241 Digital Display  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:46:42am

Moving upstairs....

242 bbcrackmonkey  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:47:30am

There were a lot of small villages that had overwhelmingly supported Moussavi, to the point of publicly shaming Ahmadinejad supporters, only to find that on election day their ballot boxes were whisked away by Interior Ministry men instead of counted by a council of civilian representatives of all 4 candidates as had happened in past elections.

Then they found out that their village had 'voted' overwhelmingly for Ahmadinejad.

Also the Kurds 'voted' Ahmadinejad, marking the first time in Iran's 30 year history of elections that they voted for a non-opposition candidate. Also Karroubi, the most liberal of all the candidates, who is a Lur and previously won the majority of the votes in large parts of Eastern Iran also lost his home province that he had won overwhelmingly just a few years earlier.

And of course just 30 days before the election the Revolutionary Guards said they wouldn't interfere, but at the last minute all of a sudden they were on the street in full riot gear because they knew riots were going to result from the election result.

If 65% of Iran voted for Ahmadinejad then why are his crowds so miniscule and his detractors howling from every street? Really it doesn't even matter anymore. What matters is that the vast majority of the Iranian people believe they've been cheated and popular anger at the Islamic Republic is likely going to cause a paradigm shift.

243 albusteve  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:47:46am

BO is determined to win the big one...a two state conceded solution favorable to the Palis...as has been pointed out his train wreck of diplomacy and insult toward Israel, and his ass kissing nuclear okey dokey for Iran pretty much sums it up....he is using Iran and nuclear blackmail to force Israel to her knees...it's entirely despicable and unAmerican...a moral crime of astounding magnitude...as usual his liberal, antiAmerican approach will get lots of innocent people killed

244 3 wood  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:47:59am

re: #177 laZardo

I don't get how a national health care system would "monopolize" health care. It would give private insurers much-needed competition and at least keep the pharmaceutical industry running.

The deduction f or employer provided health insurance would be eneded. Therefore, employers would have an overwhelming motivation to drop private insurance and let their employees get it from Uncle Sam.

In short order, there would be no private insurance to compete with. It's a back door way of getting to a siongle payer system.

245 Gearhead  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:48:04am

re: #218 Shr_Nfr

Where I come from its always Ma'am and Sir. I don't care if you are the minimum wage guy bagging groceries with an IQ of 10. Its "Thank you sir." We do not have titles in this country. It is imperious of her to think so.

Her "It's just a thing" comment got me. Whenever someone says that, I think "You left out a word: It's just an EGO thing." I know you worked hard for it. I work hard, too.

OF course, I wouldn't expect any different from Ms. Boxer.

246 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:48:15am

re: #212 johnnyreb

It was 153 billion IIRC. I head this AM that the two Japanese guys that got caught have since disappeared. apparently no one knows where they are.

Back in North Korea.

247 JohnnyReb  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:48:39am

re: #232 Son of the Black Dog

A government run insurance plan will be taxpayer subsidized, to keep it "affordable", thereby undercutting private insurers and ultimately creating a government monopoly. The government never competes on a level playing field. So called public-private partnerships always require subsidies from the taxpayer. Witness Fannie and Freddie.

Amtrack and the Post Office are two more stellar examples of thrift and well run organizations.

248 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:48:41am

re: #238 3 wood

WHAT?
Do you mean 4.5% unemployment under Bush isn't bad,
and 9% under Obama isn't OK?

249 haakondahl  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:48:48am

re: #192 Killgore Trout

Here's another possibility: Suppose Charles is correct and the election was real. This whole thing might have been engineered foreign intelligence agencies. I think that's unlikely but anything is possible.
We have no real idea of what's going on and where this is headed.

It could have been Freemasons.

250 laZardo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:49:17am

re: #232 Son of the Black Dog

And how would "undercutting" the competition drive private insurers out of business, assuming that national health care pans out like it does? Especially if doctors on the NHC payroll start ending up on the wrong end of malpractice suits.

/devil's advocate

251 J.S.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:50:46am

re: #146 NukeAtomrod

CNN had on (the other day) a person from a polling firm. The firm conducted a poll (shortly before the "election" day), and they found a 2 to 1 advantage for Ahamdinejad (over that of Mousavi). (I've forgotten the name of the polling firm, and I haven't seen the polling questions/methodology, etc., so I don't know how accurate, etc the poll was). But, Iran is a huge country...and what do we see from the opposition? most of the protesters are on the streets of Tehran (which could, in turn, lead to a skewed understanding of what's taking place when considering all of Iran)...what is going on in the rural areas?

252 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:50:49am

re: #239 unrealizedviewpoint

Libs don't believe freedom is important enough to wage even the threat of violence.

It should be pointed out to Libs that two democracies have never gone to war with one another.

253 laZardo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:51:41am

re: #236 Kenneth

You mean it was a bad thing when Bush won that election and the Supreme Court prevented Gore from stealing it? Obama did exactly what with that ghost?

Wasn't it the other way around? Obama purged those ghosts by winning both the popular and electoral college votes.

254 Rancher  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:51:59am

Obama can't lend moral support to the protesters because the Mullahs will accuse the U.S. of meddling in Iranian affairs. He is also afraid that if he does it will kill any chance he has of negotiating Iran out of building the bomb. Finally Iran could make our exit from Iraq problematic by supporting Sadr and other Shia extremists and ramp up efforts in Afghanistan, Gaza, the West Bank, and Southern Lebanon.

However Obama has no chance of getting Iran to abandon its nuclear ambitions through flowery words, the Mullahs are already accusing us of meddling and blaming America for the riots, and if they feel its in their intrest to interfere in other areas of the Middle East what the hell can Obama do? Say "Hey, we had a deal"? Support the movement for Democracy after its been squashed?

255 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:52:24am

re: #22 Nevergiveup

I'm not sure what these demonstrators are fighting for, but one thing I am pretty sure of is that an Iran free of the Mullahs is NOT in the cards. I hope I am wrong but time will tell.


I think a "mullah free iran" is exactly what many of the demonstrators are fighting for. They are fighting very long odds, but I believe miracles are possible. And a counterrevolution in iran that changes that regime would qualify as a miracle.

256 Kragar  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:52:43am

re: #238 3 wood

Here is an example of flawed reporting:


U.S. continuing jobless claims fall by 148,000


So that hope and change stimulus plan is still not working out.

Yup, they said its the first drop in 21 weeks. I was on unemployment for a few months a few years back and they only cover you for 6 months in most circumstances. Do the math.

257 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:53:56am

re: #249 haakondahl
Don't forget the Jews. They can be very clever.

258 zombie  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:54:16am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.

Are you referring to the Washington Post poll which showed Ahmadinejad did have a significant lead, before the election?

I looked closely at that poll and was not overwhelmingly convinced. They did point out and try to address the most obvious possible source of error -- that people would be afraid to answer honestly (the polling was done over the phone, and there was no proof of who was really calling -- government agents or whoever). Their "evidence" that people were being honest in their answers was they they sometimes also gave other answers to other poll questions that were "independent" in nature -- i.e. they didn't toe the government line.

Hence, the average polling conversation went like this (in Farsi, obviously):

Q: Who do you support for president?
A: Ahmadinejad
Q: Would you like more freedom in your country?
A: Uh, sure.
Q: Are you pro-America?
A: Yeah, they're OK -- Jessica Simpson is pretty hot.
...and so forth.

But this evidence could also be interpreted the other way: The very fact that they didn't toe the governement line in the other answers might suggest that they weren't Ahmadinejad supporters after all, and that they only gave a dishonest answer to that one particular question because that is they one hot-button question they fear to be honest about.

I think that the obviously phony hour-by-hour results, in which the EACT same percentage of people voted for Ahmadinejad in every city, every polling station, every region, so that the results are an exact straight line that could have been drawn with a ruler, are the greatest evidence of fraud. Results never ever happen like that.

259 zombie  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:55:41am

EACT same percentage = EXACT same percentage
PIMF

260 jbolty  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:55:58am

I can hear Reagan now:

"Mr Gorbachev, this wall is none of our business"

wait, what?

261 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:56:11am

re: #253 laZardo

Wasn't it the other way around? Obama purged those ghosts by winning both the popular and electoral college votes.

No it wasn't the other way around ,as 5 independent recounts show.
and Bush won the popular and electoral college votes in 2004.
Does Bill Clinton's getting 43% of the vote in 1992 de-legitimize both his terms?

262 Call me Infidel  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:56:44am

What do we actually know about Mousavi? Is there evidence that he would change Iran from a thugocracy to a democracy? I have a feeling that Dinnerjacket did win the election by a narrow margin. Quite why they thought they needed to fiddle the results is open to speculation.

As far as Obama giving support to one side over the other I think it would be counterproductive. This country has had over thirty years of indoctrination that the US is the Great Satan. I think any interference would be misconstrued and seized upon by the mad mullahs as evidence that the US wants to take over Iran and put a puppet in place.

263 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:58:06am

re: #251 J.S.

CNN had on (the other day) a person from a polling firm. The firm conducted a poll (shortly before the "election" day), and they found a 2 to 1 advantage for Ahamdinejad (over that of Mousavi). (I've forgotten the name of the polling firm, and I haven't seen the polling questions/methodology, etc., so I don't know how accurate, etc the poll was). But, Iran is a huge country...and what do we see from the opposition? most of the protesters are on the streets of Tehran (which could, in turn, lead to a skewed understanding of what's taking place when considering all of Iran)...what is going on in the rural areas?

How do you conduct a "poll" in a place like Iran?

People do not speak out loud what they think, let alone to a complete stranger. One with a "minder" looking over their shoulder.

The rural areas? High Illiteracy rates, they'll for the most part do what the local Mullah tell them.

264 Rancher  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:58:47am

re: #72 Charles

By the way, I've also heard from several reliable sources that the election results were not rigged -- that Ahmadinejad really did win by a large majority.

Just to throw another depressing data point into the mix.


He may well have won, I doubt by a large majority, definitely didn't win in the other candidates home towns and almost certainly didn't win two thirds of the youth vote. What sources may I ask?

265 laZardo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 10:59:38am

re: #261 n in wi

Still won the popular vote back then over his rivals.

266 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:00:16am

I wish the Europeans who were so quick to demonstrate by the thousands against the iraq war would get their asses back into the streets and demonstrate against this brutal crackdown at every iranian embassy in europe. think of the statement that would make to the people in iran if every free society in europe showed their solidarity by demonstrating outside iranian embassies in paris, london, rome, etc. Since there is no iranian embassy in the US, we don't have that opportunity.

Do the euros even have a clue that they could be very helpful here?

267 iLikeCandy  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:02:24am

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Meta-ODS nonsense. AS IF the United States could have manufactured an uprising of this magnitude?

We're going to be accused of meddling no matter what:

even the Obama's administration's tepid comments about the situation have prompted the Iranian Foreign Ministry to summon the Swiss ambassador, who represents U.S. interests in Tehran, to complain of "interventionist comments" from the U.S.

[Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

So what have we got to lose by making a public, principled stand on the right side of this issue? Compare Obama's inaction to Ronald Reagan on the Polish uprising:

[Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

Long to quote, but the gist is that Reagan faced down gutless Western European leaders and forced a firm, unified stance with Solidarity. It's an inspiring read, completely unlike this nuanced, 11-dimensional chess game Obama is supposedly playing.

268 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:04:59am

re: #253 laZardo

Wasn't it the other way around? Obama purged those ghosts by winning both the popular and electoral college votes.

Bush won the election. The Supreme Court ruled that Gore could not go ahead with a selective recount which was ruled as unconstitutional. A subsequent unofficial recount conducted by a committee of journalists and academics found that Bush did indeed win the Florida poll.

Gore led by a slight margin in the national popular vote, but Bush won the Electoral College vote, which is how US elections are decided.

The "ghost" you mention is in fact a lie.

269 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:05:53am

re: #265 laZardo

Still won the popular vote back then over his rivals.

That is irrelevant and hardly a "ghost". Geesh.

270 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:06:26am

re: #262 Call me Infidel

What do we actually know about Mousavi? Is there evidence that he would change Iran from a thugocracy to a democracy? I have a feeling that Dinnerjacket did win the election by a narrow margin. Quite why they thought they needed to fiddle the results is open to speculation.

As far as Obama giving support to one side over the other I think it would be counterproductive. This country has had over thirty years of indoctrination that the US is the Great Satan. I think any interference would be misconstrued and seized upon by the mad mullahs as evidence that the US wants to take over Iran and put a puppet in place.

Mousavi was the Mullah's "lite" offering to the people. What I get out of things is the Mullahs were taken aback by the popular support for him, and and to rethink their plans.

No matter what is said here, the Mullahs will spin it for consumption as "interference" even if he says nothing, they'll still blame "spies and agitators."

The young urban people have slipped the indoctrination noose. Iran has allowed net access and the young people are net savvy and well informed, they also are tired of the economic, political and social repression and see via the net what the west looks like and they want it for themselves.

271 J.S.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:06:48am

re: #263 jcm

Gallup (last year) conducted a poll -- they do it face-to-face. (I've provided a link to one of their Gallup polls the other day...you can read their methodology section. Under these adverse circumstances -- which they are aware, ie, that states such as Egypt, Iran, are, indeed, police states -- I think they give us at least a glimpse into the worldview of those interviewed.)

272 n in wi  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:08:23am

re: #265 laZardo

Still won the popular vote back then over his rivals.

Maybe thats why Clinton governed to be popular , rather than governing with principle.Winning the popular vote means nothing as far as being President.

273 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:08:47am

#265 laZardo

To return to your original assertion, that the Iranian election is somehow a reflection of the Obama effect of overturning the Ghost of the 2000 elections.

First of all, the Iranian election is about Iranian domestic issues. This might come as a huge shock to you, but nobody when to the polls in Iran last week thinking, "Gosh, I'm still miffed at that Florida recount thing, so I'm going to vote for candidate x."

You are being absurd.

274 restitutor orbis  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:10:57am

If we were smart we would set both sides to really fighting each other. I'm not ready to jump on Mousavi's nuts just yet. Seems to me he's just the lesser of two evils...with both being exceptionally evi

Why do we have to always be the peacemakers....sometimes you have to let these things play out.
Let the place burn, their misery is our gain.

275 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:12:15am

re: #271 J.S.

Gallup (last year) conducted a poll -- they do it face-to-face. (I've provided a link to one of their Gallup polls the other day...you can read their methodology section. Under these adverse circumstances -- which they are aware, ie, that states such as Egypt, Iran, are, indeed, police states -- I think they give us at least a glimpse into the worldview of those interviewed.)

Face to face, did they do a random sampling? Did Iran in any way influence sampling?

Face to face, people in a police state are very guarded in what they say.

Even under the Shah, what people told us in public, and what we heard in their homes were different things.

276 laZardo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:13:23am

re: #268 Kenneth

Electoral college votes per state are decided from popular votes in those respective states. That the recount was halted only during its limited county-by-county basis implies that the election could those deciding electoral college votes would have turned the results on their head.

277 Florida Lady  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:15:39am

re: #119 lawhawk

President Obama's tone has been weak. It was belated, and it was insufficient. Those are the facts. The words he's used to describe the situation in Iran are far less urgent than those he used to describe the political situation in New Jersey's race for Governor.

It's perspective and priorities, and Obama doesn't look good at all.

He's used more forceful words talking about capitalism and many of his fellow citizens.

What a weak nancy boy this country has put in the White House. It's embarrassing.

278 Land Shark  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:17:50am

I think Charles has raised a valid point. This could be an exercise in futility if the movement doesn't start to get some key people on their side, like the military. Or if the people aren't willing to take the next step, continue the protests and disobedience in spite of a violent crackdown. Sadly, the bad guys have all the guns.

279 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:18:19am

re: #276 laZardo

Electoral college votes per state are decided from popular votes in those respective states. That the recount was halted only during its limited county-by-county basis implies that the election could those deciding electoral college votes would have turned the results on their head.

NY Times and other papers did a number recount analysis, Al Gore lost every one.

Al Gore wanted to recount (D) controlled counties only, include over count ballots (ballots with two presidential candidates selected) as his and excluded military ballots without a post mark date (military mail does not have dated post marks).

Al Gore chose Richard Daley (Chicago) to head is recount effort.

280 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:19:22am

re: #250 laZardo

And how would "undercutting" the competition drive private insurers out of business, assuming that national health care pans out like it does? Especially if doctors on the NHC payroll start ending up on the wrong end of malpractice suits.

/devil's advocate

Your last point first. Under a NHC system you won't be allowed to sue a doctor on the government payroll for malpractice. Ex. the VA not properly sterilizing their colonoscopy equipment. You think any of the veterans who've caught hepatitis of HIV are going to be able to sue? Think again. There may be a compensation board, but the money won't come from the doctors, it will come from the taxpayers, and the compensation will be small compared to current awards or to the actual damages suffered. How much do you think a veteran who turns up with hepatitis is really going to collect?

Explain how a subsidized government subsidized health insurance system is NOT going to drive private insurers out of the market. The only way I can see private insurance staying in business is if people are allowed to opt out of the government system into a private system, as occurs in Britain. Note that opting out would not have been allowed under Hillarycare.

281 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:20:08am

re: #278 Land Shark

I think Charles has raised a valid point. This could be an exercise in futility if the movement doesn't start to get some key people on their side, like the military. Or if the people aren't willing to take the next step, continue the protests and disobedience in spite of a violent crackdown. Sadly, the bad guys have all the guns.

This is the first chapter, how long, how bloody the book is remains to be seen.

But the book is about the end of mullah's reign of terror.

282 bbcrackmonkey  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:22:45am

Revolutionary Guards or Basij shot a pregnant woman in the belly, baby was hit through torso, stillborn.

NWS
WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT
NWS

283 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:23:18am

re: #265 laZardo

Still won the popular vote back then over his rivals.

No, a majority of the voters voted for Not-Clinton.

284 laZardo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:23:31am

re: #280 Son of the Black Dog

First off, how will they be prevented from suing? There could be a psychological "campaign" against it but there don't seem to be any concrete rules for that.

Hmm, that must be why Hillary's plan got shot down so badly. Though I do recall that NHC would allow for opt-out.

285 laZardo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:25:00am

re: #279 jcm

Source plz.

/references will be greenheart'd.

286 bbcrackmonkey  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:27:18am

Sorry old link dead

Warning: NOT WORK SAFE
Image: 4923_1190209438279_1319641571_30528792_7507638_n.jpg

Fetus shot in mother's womb by Basij or IRGC

287 bbcrackmonkey  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:29:37am

Very sorry another dead link, last try

Warning: Very Graphic, NWS
Stillborn from AK-47

288 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:33:57am

re: #276 laZardo

Electoral college votes per state are decided from popular votes in those respective states. That the recount was halted only during its limited county-by-county basis implies that the election could those deciding electoral college votes would have turned the results on their head.

Your statement makes no sense. Are you alleging the Florida vote was halted in progress? That is completely untrue. The count was completed and legally certified. In any event, the subsequent recounts showed that Bush would have won any constitutionally legal recount. The only recount arrangement in which Gore could have "won" was if the recount was restricted to 3 counties, and that the rules of the recounts were different in each of those 3 counties. That was the kind of unconstitutional recount which the SCOTUS refused, citing the Equal Protections principle. In any possible recount in which the same rules were applied in all counties, Bush won.

289 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:43:16am

re: #285 laZardo

Source plz.

/references will be greenheart'd.



Quick and dirty wiki....

The media companies involved were:

* Associated Press
* The New York Times
* The Wall Street Journal
* CNN
* St. Petersburg Times
* The Palm Beach Post
* The Washington Post
* Tribune Company
o Los Angeles Times
o Chicago Tribune
o Orlando Sentinel
o The Baltimore Sun


All Big Bush Backers.... //////

The media reported the results of the study during the week after November 12, 2001. The results of the study showed that had the limited county by county recounts requested by the Gore team been completed, Bush would still have been the winner of the election.
290 Realityzealot  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:46:45am

Not futile at all. If all goes well, this will be a very strong example of how the internet and other instant, open, communication systems can bring freedom and justice.

Even if they do get crushed by the Tyrants, no one will forget this.

291 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:47:16am

re: #287 bbcrackmonkey

Very sorry another dead link, last try

Warning: Very Graphic, NWS
Stillborn from AK-47

I'm speechless

292 Kenneth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:47:50am

Don’t Stop Meddling Now

In February 2006, Secretary of State Condoleezza told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, “We are going to work to support the aspirations of the Iranian people for freedom in their own country.” She requested, and was granted, $75 million dollars to be put toward the effort. What became known as the “Democracy fund” for Iran was routinely slammed as unnecessarily confrontational by critics of robust democracy promotion.

Realists, isolationists, and simple Obamatons can proceed as cautiously as they like, but there’s reason to believe that the Bush administration’s “meddling” may have played some role in the revolt we see today. Consider this June 2007 New York Times magazine article’s account of a U.S.-funded Iranian “human rights workshop” held in Dubai:

Over three sets of sessions, [Iranians] were not only given some basic human rights and health training but also a session on successful popular revolts in places like Serbia, conducted by the International Center on Nonviolent Conflict, a Washington-based group. At least two members of Otpor - the Serbian youth movement instrumental in ousting Slobodan Milosevic - were present. Portions of “A Force More Powerful,” a three-hour documentary series featuring civil-resistance movements overcoming authoritarian rule around the world, was also screened.

Further sessions included a lesson on how to use Hushmail (an encrypted e-mail account) and a secure open-source software called Martus designed to store information about human rights abuses. With the press of a single button, you can upload information to a server and erase any trace of the file from your computer. Each participant was given the software to take back to Tehran. One participant recently told me: “We were certain that we would have trouble once we went back to Tehran. This was like a James Bond camp for revolutionaries.”

Now we know why Obama is avoiding giving support to the Iranian pro-democracy protests: he views this messy election as yet another mess he inherited from the meddling Bush administration.

293 nyc redneck  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:51:35am

re: #140 FurryOldGuyJeans

No one here that I have read has been saying they want Obama to public support the overthrow of the Iranian Regime, they want the POTUS to promote American Ideals of freedom, human rights, and free and fair elections.

There is a difference.

if he had any balls he would denounce the tyrannical savage thugs who are killing innocent citizens in iran.
a strong pres. would condemn them in no uncertain terms..
it is so obvious. it needs to be stated. it should be stated.
it is wrong what these bastards are doing.
totus won't go out on a limb because he is thinking of himself and his chance to hopey change the "winners"
they are not impressed w/ his dance of innuendo. they see him as weak.
he is not helping himself.
the people of iran are calling out for help.
how sad o won't answer.

294 Solomon2  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:54:39am

There is some doubt that Ahmedinejad can win this Fronde, because he may be uncertain of the ultimate loyalty of his cadres. Suppose the crowd starts photographing and fingerprinting (you can always break open a pen) the thugs they capture before releasing them. Fear that they will be held accountable for their brutality will spread through their ranks very quickly.

295 Caboose  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 11:57:51am

re: #10 zombie

One could have said the same about the crowds trying to storm the Bastille in 1789, or staging impotent rallies in St. Petersburg in 1917.

Everything seems futile until it succeeds.

"War is a series of defeats followed by victory".

296 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 12:00:37pm

re: #287 bbcrackmonkey

Very sorry another dead link, last try

Warning: Very Graphic, NWS
Stillborn from AK-47

The mullahs would murder an infant in the womb,
Just as they hope to murder democracy in the womb.

297 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 12:07:48pm

re: #185 Honorary Yooper

Oil is probably up more on the events in Iran than anything else, I'd assume.

No, actually the price of oil(along with gas at the pumps) has been going up steadily since March. The Fraud's hope to hold the price in the 70-75 range while the Russian's, Mullah's & now some in the GCC want to see 100 or more(Russia needs 95, the Mullah's in the 110-125 range).

298 J.S.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 12:17:02pm

re: #275 jcm

Gallup (as I believe is true of other "public opinion" polling firms) don't release a lot of info about selection of "samples" (unlike in an academic milieu -- if a survey is published in the academic presses, then you'll be able to see/read everything -- how the sample was obtained, how it was weighted, etc. -- it'll all be very transparent, so that if another academic wants to do the same/similar survey, and see if he/she gets a similar result, then that info is there. but this is not the case with Gallup and other polling firms who are out to make a profit (and consider their methods proprietary) -- the results they obtain must be accurate, yet they don't want to reveal their weighting schemes, sampling techniques, etc., to the public -- otherwise, their competition would make use of it...) So what Gallup does do is state that the results are "scientific" and they will, typically, give you a confidence interval. but, that's it...

299 jcm  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 12:26:37pm

re: #298 J.S.

Gallup (as I believe is true of other "public opinion" polling firms) don't release a lot of info about selection of "samples" (unlike in an academic milieu -- if a survey is published in the academic presses, then you'll be able to see/read everything -- how the sample was obtained, how it was weighted, etc. -- it'll all be very transparent, so that if another academic wants to do the same/similar survey, and see if he/she gets a similar result, then that info is there. but this is not the case with Gallup and other polling firms who are out to make a profit (and consider their methods proprietary) -- the results they obtain must be accurate, yet they don't want to reveal their weighting schemes, sampling techniques, etc., to the public -- otherwise, their competition would make use of it...) So what Gallup does do is state that the results are "scientific" and they will, typically, give you a confidence interval. but, that's it...

I see polls and elections in Thugocracies as giving the governments a false patina of legitimacy.

It give excuses to those who want avoid doing the right thing, the hard thing and excuse a thug. But they voted... polls show....

300 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 12:31:57pm

re: #96 DistantThunder

Dennis Prager said that he has observed that at the heart of every liberal is physical cowardice. How anyone can look at Obama and NOT believe that, is beyond me.

This liberal would like to believe that Obama is not a good representative of the whole pack of us...perhaps that my own family of veterans, police officers, and reckless little old ladies might serve as a better example.

I'd also like to know about anything physically brave that Dennis Prager has done lately.

301 SFGoth  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 12:40:50pm

Anyone have a link to info on how the demonstrators feel about Obama and whether they'd prefer Bush?

302 J.S.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 12:46:54pm

re: #299 jcm

When one considers public opinion polls in the Middle East -- it's a whole different world..(there are a number of examples of spectacular failures -- I recall a Pali "polling" outfit which claimed -- erroneously as it turned out -- that HAMAS was sure to go down to defeat in Gaza; there are also the those polling outfits which tick-off the local dictators -- Ayandeh in 2002 was run out of Iran -- so, politics will, indeed, interfere at times...)

303 Solomon2  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 12:47:42pm

"the mullahs are not going to back down"

Not quite, imo. You see, these guys have done this before. I'll repeat here what I wrote elsewhere:

Mousavi and Ahmedinejad are both professional revolutionaries. Almost certainly, that means they are mobilizing their respective armed cadres.

On the plus side, that means each of them should know - better than we do - at what point they should give in to the other without further bloodshed, just as experienced generals know when to authorize their troops to retreat or surrender rather than continue to fight. This second revolution could be a lot less bloody than the first.

304 Robert O.  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 1:04:33pm

Repeat after me:

Marg bar Ahmadinejad!
Marg bar Khamenei!
Marg bar Jomhouri-e-Islami!

305 bbcrackmonkey  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 1:30:05pm

I've got one hell of a treat for you guys.

Fissures in Iranian Gov't Run Deep

It's an article all in Farsi but I'll give you the jist of it.

Yesterday a couple of the members of the Iranian parliament started asking questions regarding the plainclothes security forces who have been beating the protesters in Iran.

Apparently, Abutorabi (Parliament secretary) questioned the connections of the plainclothes security forces who had earlier storm Tehran University's dorms and killed and injured students. Abutorabi claims that those individuals have been identified and says: "Why do plainclothes individuals without permission from the government get to storm the dorms?"

Then Ansari, a member of the parliament took the floor and talked about the "fact finding" committee and the fact that everyone in that comity is an Ahmadinejad supporter and therefore questioned the legitimacy of the committee.

After Ansari, Abutorabi took the floor again and continued questioning the plainclothes security forces once again. At this point Hosseinian, Koochakzadeh, and Resaee, the three biggest supporters of Ahmadinejad in the parliament, started a verbal argument which ended with a number of physical fights. As a result a number of pro and anti Ahmadinejad members of the parliament join the fight and start slapping and pushing each other.

In the end, the anti-Ahmadinejad bloc claims that they will expose the identities of those behind the plainclothes security forces.

Keep in mind that the pro and anti Ahmadinejad blocs belong to the same political party! I think the government is starting to crack up from the inside.

306 tommygum  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 1:54:17pm

re: #93 Shr_Nfr

Hitler made much of one of his supporters that was killed by some Communists. He used it as a rallying point in his rise to power.

Horst Wessel.

307 Wendya  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 2:58:17pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

an over emphasis on the mere holding of elections

You've got to be kidding....


Now, that does not surprise me in the least coming from a website that describes itself as building a "strong, progressive national security".

Have you ever read that website and looked at the "issues" and how progressive should solve them? It's a load of unmitigated bullshit that looks like it was written by a bunch of Kossacks.

308 Jack_Ita  Thu, Jun 18, 2009 5:09:44pm

re: #287 bbcrackmonkey

Very sorry another dead link, last try

Warning: Very Graphic, NWS
Stillborn from AK-47

I'm disgusted, cannot really comment.

I hope that the people in Iran will be able to see this, and that the mindless and reckless violence tartgeting their fellow citizens will only fuel the protest some more. This is the moment to keep the attention high on Iran, keep up the pressure on the government. Not the time to say "meh, who cares" like Obama.

A good photographic account of the elections and the demonstrations (with fairly less crude images) can be seen here: [Link: www.flickr.com...]


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