Three newly released recordings that I highly recommend, in three very different genres. If you like what you hear, click through to Amazon to buy these albums in CD or downloadable MP3 format, and you’ll help support LGF by doing so.
2 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:27:24pm |
Ooh- Keith Jarrett…
Lalene may be one of my favorite jazz piano pieces.
And the Koln Concerts, side 4? Forget it. Beyond brilliant.
| 3 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:27:54pm |
I have to say, I really love Spotify sometimes..
| 4 |
Sharmuta Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:29:14pm |
re: #2 austin_blue
Looks like the CD is 3 disks. Not a bad price. Hmm…
| 5 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:29:19pm |
Even if I just hated the topics or the crowd, the music would have me coming back. Lucky me I like all the above. I have this embarrassingly gushing email from my niece about the Acoustic Guitar tags. 22 years old. Utterly apolitical. But plays five instruments.
| 6 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:38:52pm |
Here’s a refreshing change of pace: Dawkins/leftist fail - Conservative win!
The 2009 recipient of the Richard Dawkins Award (a.k.a Bill Maher) “doesn’t believe in” vaccines or “Western medicine”
Bill Maher gets schooled on vaccines by Bill Frist
| 7 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:39:20pm |
re: #5 Rightwingconspirator
Even if I just hated the topics or the crowd, the music would have me coming back. Lucky me I like all the above. I have this embarrassingly gushing email from my niece about the Acoustic Guitar tags. 22 years old. Utterly apolitical. But plays five instruments.
Good for her! Encourage that exploration. Has she taken theory? Music is mathematics. It opens up worlds.
| 8 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:40:41pm |
AtlanticWire picked up my post about the shrieking harpy:
[Link: www.theatlanticwire.com…]
| 9 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:44:19pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
Here’s a refreshing change of pace: Dawkins/leftist fail - Conservative win!
The 2009 recipient of the Richard Dawkins Award (a.k.a Bill Maher) “doesn’t believe in” vaccines or “Western medicine”Bill Maher gets schooled on vaccines by Bill Frist
If Dawkins himself gave that award, he’ll probably take it back now. Bill Maher may dislike religion as Dawkins does, but he apparently does not share Dawkins’ practice of following the evidence. Instead, he subscribes to the left coast anti-vax fashion. Congratulations Bill: You not only an atheist, you’re also an asshole!
| 10 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:45:10pm |
re: #7 austin_blue
THX
She just got her BA in science, not sure exactly what discipline. At risk of being OT and a suck up- Her instruments are all wind. Until on the road here from home. She buys this cheap guitar at a raodside country truck stop. She strolls in to visit and starts to teach herself the guitar. So, I put her Bose headset on her and pulled up the tags from LGF on my laptop-acoustic and shred and four finger from right here. An Uncle and a niece never had a better moment as family.
| 11 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:45:54pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
Here’s a refreshing change of pace: Dawkins/leftist fail - Conservative win!
The 2009 recipient of the Richard Dawkins Award (a.k.a Bill Maher) “doesn’t believe in” vaccines or “Western medicine”Bill Maher gets schooled on vaccines by Bill Frist
[Video]
Gah! I see this and I wonder where some of these people have got their common sense. I suspect in many cases, squarely up their asses. This is what happens when you mix pundits, science, and religion. Maher needs to keep his focus on what he does best. It ain’t science.
| 12 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:47:39pm |
re: #8 Charles
AtlanticWire picked up my post about the shrieking harpy:
[Link: www.theatlanticwire.com…]
The headline they put on it makes it sound as if Atlas’ descent into craziness and your calling her out on it is something new.
| 13 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:49:13pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
Here’s a refreshing change of pace: Dawkins/leftist fail - Conservative win!
The 2009 recipient of the Richard Dawkins Award (a.k.a Bill Maher) “doesn’t believe in” vaccines or “Western medicine”Bill Maher gets schooled on vaccines by Bill Frist
[Video]
Killgore - love ya!
You appear to be getting updings from what appear to be the few remaining conservatives. Has the world as we know it turned upside down?
You called it awhile back … said it would be difficult to keep the conservatives here. You were right.
| 14 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:49:58pm |
re: #9 Dark_Falcon
I wasn’t aware of the award until just now. It was hotly debated and was a very stupid decision.
| 15 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:50:23pm |
re: #10 Rightwingconspirator
THX
She just got her BA in science, not sure exactly what discipline. At risk of being OT and a suck up- Her instruments are all wind. Until on the road here from home. She buys this cheap guitar at a raodside country truck stop. She strolls in to visit and starts to teach herself the guitar. So, I put her Bose headset on her and pulled up the tags from LGF on my laptop-acoustic and shred and four finger from right here. An Uncle and a niece never had a better moment as family.
Sweet! If she is good enough to go from the various flavors of clarinet/sax/flute (I’m assuming she’s not a double reed geek), to being able to pick up a guitar and intrinsically understand the fret board, she has some real talent.
I understand your pride of place, my man. Good times.
| 16 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:51:07pm |
re: #13 reine.de.tout
We are splitting for real. The big tent got loaded on the truck and left there.
| 17 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:52:31pm |
| 18 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:52:37pm |
re: #13 reine.de.tout
You called it awhile back … said it would be difficult to keep the conservatives here. You were right.
Why is this? Are the topics brought forth so grating to them? Can’t they stand the company?
| 19 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:53:35pm |
re: #13 reine.de.tout
You called it awhile back … said it would be difficult to keep the conservatives here. You were right.
It’s going to be tough. I can’t speak for Charles or LGF as a whole but I haven’t changed. The political landscape has changed around me. I’ll still goof on whoever’s being an idiot.
| 20 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:53:39pm |
re: #13 reine.de.tout
Killgore - love ya!
You appear to be getting updings from what appear to be the few remaining conservatives. Has the world as we know it turned upside down?You called it awhile back … said it would be difficult to keep the conservatives here. You were right.
You will notice that some of the Libs here are just as appalled. (waves hand!!) I came here because this was an anti-idiotarian site.
And there is certainly no political bias on that!
| 21 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:53:48pm |
re: #18 cenotaphium
It’s the dogmatic fleeing the dynamic.
| 22 |
Kronocide Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:54:47pm |
re: #13 reine.de.tout
You called it awhile back … said it would be difficult to keep the conservatives here. You were right.
I’m conservative. I guess I can be the Token Conservative.
| 23 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:54:50pm |
re: #17 Rightwingconspirator
What do I do if she has a crush on Our Host?
J/K!
Keep her away from the basement of the Denver Airport…
| 24 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:55:16pm |
re: #20 austin_blue
The conservatives have been taking a lot of well deserved knocks lately. Just because they deserve it doesn’t mean it’s easy to take.
| 25 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:55:33pm |
re: #18 cenotaphium
Why is this? Are the topics brought forth so grating to them? Can’t they stand the company?
Lefties have BO.
| 26 |
McSpiff Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:56:39pm |
re: #20 austin_blue
You will notice that some of the Libs here are just as appalled. (waves hand!!) I came here because this was an anti-idiotarian site.
And there is certainly no political bias on that!
Add my name to that list. I’m also fairly conservative on foreign policy, and lib on domestic. But always anti-idiotarian.
| 27 |
Sharmuta Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:57:45pm |
I liked the Jarrett best, but the Porcupine Tree was good too.
| 28 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:57:53pm |
re: #26 McSpiff
Add my name to that list. I’m also fairly conservative on foreign policy, and lib on domestic. But always anti-idiotarian.
And I’m just you everyday common fire spitting right wing nut case, be careful.
| 29 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:58:03pm |
Cat registered as hypnotherapist
U r feeling sleepy. Bring cheezeburger.
| 31 |
McSpiff Mon, Oct 12, 2009 8:59:34pm |
re: #28 Walter L. Newton
And I’m just you everyday common fire spitting right wing nut case, be careful.
I love having my ideas attacked. The good ones will stand, the crappy ones will fall. Its grand. More right wing nut cases the better.
| 32 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:00:47pm |
re: #19 Killgore Trout
It’s going to be tough. I can’t speak for Charles or LGF as a whole but I haven’t changed. The political landscape has changed around me. I’ll still goof on whoever’s being an idiot.
Killgore- that’s how I see it. LGF is the same. The political landscape is different. And none of us do ourselves any favors if we ignore idiocy. And much of what is happening now in the Rep party is idiocy. The question for me: What do I do (or can I do) about it? That’s something I need to think on, and something will happen where my voice will be heard. Always does.
My values are the same they’ve always been. I have no fear of posting my thoughts here. I don’t care if others around do not agree. It affects me and my life in no way for anonymous people on the internet to either agree OR disagree with me. The premier source of information is here … and that’s what I need (and so do others, even if they don’t realize it).
| 33 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:01:07pm |
re: #29 Killgore Trout
Cat registered as hypnotherapist
U r feeling sleepy. Bring cheezeburger.
Klilgore, why are you so anti-science!?!?
| 34 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:01:20pm |
Sounds like Northern California has one hell of a storm inbound.
| 35 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:01:37pm |
re: #22 BigPapa
I’m conservative. I guess I can be the Token Conservative.
That would be you and me, and perhaps Dark Falcon … Spare O’Lake? We are few, but we are here. FWIW.
| 36 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:02:16pm |
re: #20 austin_blue
You will notice that some of the Libs here are just as appalled. (waves hand!!) I came here because this was an anti-idiotarian site.
And there is certainly no political bias on that!
Nope!
| 37 |
freetoken Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:02:32pm |
re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist
It’s the remnant of the typhoon that caused laZardo so much trouble. It might even rain down here.
| 38 |
Walter L. Newton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:02:39pm |
re: #35 reine.de.tout
That would be you and me, and perhaps Dark Falcon … Spare O’Lake? We are few, but we are here. FWIW.
What am I, chopped liver. Gee, thanks…
| 39 |
sngnsgt Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:03:27pm |
re: #29 Killgore Trout
Yea but, hypnotizing a cat is so much more fun… /
| 40 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:04:16pm |
re: #38 Walter L. Newton
What am I, chopped liver. Gee, thanks…
Am I regarded as Conservative, Liberal, Centrists… or just barking mad?
Just curious.
| 41 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:04:18pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
Here’s a refreshing change of pace: Dawkins/leftist fail - Conservative win!
The 2009 recipient of the Richard Dawkins Award (a.k.a Bill Maher) “doesn’t believe in” vaccines or “Western medicine”Bill Maher gets schooled on vaccines by Bill Frist
[Video]
Actually, there were a lot of people on the pro-science side who were unhappy about Maher getting that award. Dawkins said he didn’t even know about Maher’s crazy antivax ideas, and I believe him — I didn’t know either until all this blew up.
Here’s a good recap of the controversy at Respectful Insolence:
[Link: scienceblogs.com…]
| 42 |
Sharmuta Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:04:21pm |
re: #35 reine.de.tout
That would be you and me, and perhaps Dark Falcon … Spare O’Lake? We are few, but we are here. FWIW.
*sniff*
| 43 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:04:44pm |
re: #24 Killgore Trout
The conservatives have been taking a lot of well deserved knocks lately. Just because they deserve it doesn’t mean it’s easy to take.
Agreed. I just think that thoughtful conversation, even with significant disagreement, is possible. When I started lurking on this board, it took forever to become a hatchling. Even after that point, I waited a long time before posting. Before I did, anyone with a Lib bias was immediately (and massively) attacked as a troll and GAZED upon. Pretty intimidating. Most of the worst abusers have been weeded out as, well, abusive posters, for various whack philosophies.
I think this is an opportunity, here, to pillory the extreme right and the extreme left for the crazies on both sides. To find common ground. We should be, as anti-idiotarians, pushing for policies that advance the agendas of both sides of the aisle. And we should be doing so from a position of mutual respect.
| 45 |
Kragar Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:05:18pm |
| 46 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:06:08pm |
re: #32 reine.de.tout
Things will turn around eventually. Conservatism isn’t dead, it’s just resting right now.
| 47 |
freetoken Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:07:05pm |
re: #46 Killgore Trout
Things will turn around eventually. Conservatism isn’t dead, it’s just resting right now.
The South will rise again?
| 48 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:07:16pm |
| 49 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:07:20pm |
re: #46 Killgore Trout
Things will turn around eventually. Conservatism isn’t dead, it’s just resting right now.
I thought it was pining for the fjords.
| 50 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:07:38pm |
re: #46 Killgore Trout
Things will turn around eventually. Conservatism isn’t dead, it’s just resting right now.
I’m not so sure about that. I’m reading Sam Tanenhaus’ book, and he makes a pretty devastating case that conservatism may indeed be very, very dead.
| 51 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:08:33pm |
re: #46 Killgore Trout
Things will turn around eventually. Conservatism isn’t dead, it’s just resting right now.
Uh.. beautiful plumage?
| 52 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:08:41pm |
Here’s the book — I recommend it:
| 53 |
Sharmuta Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:08:47pm |
re: #20 austin_blue
You will notice that some of the Libs here are just as appalled. (waves hand!!) I came here because this was an anti-idiotarian site.
And there is certainly no political bias on that!
I stayed here because this was an anti-idiotarian site. To tell the truth, without LGF, I don’t know where I’d spend my blog time. I’m sure as hell not hanging out with the friends of euro-fascists.
| 54 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:08:53pm |
| 55 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:09:18pm |
| 56 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:09:42pm |
| 58 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:09:45pm |
re: #50 Charles
I’m not so sure about that. I’m reading Sam Tanenhaus’ book, and he makes a pretty devastating case that conservatism may indeed be very, very dead.
I don’t agreed with Tanenhaus. That said, conservatism will not make a comeback until and unless it is willing to open up and be inclusive.
| 59 |
freetoken Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:10:20pm |
re: #50 Charles
Some things never get discussed, or perhaps I should say rarely get discussed, not the least of which is that there really is no “going back” in life.
IMO people who are trying to recreate the past are just diddling with their time until someone creative comes along and shows something new.
Specifically, the desire to recreate Ronald Reagan and 1980… or those who want to return to the golden era of the 1950’s.
| 60 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:10:28pm |
re: #58 Dark_Falcon
I don’t agreed with Tanenhaus. That said, conservatism will not make a comeback until and unless it is willing to open up and be inclusive.
If you haven’t read the book, how do you know you don’t agree?
| 61 |
Sharmuta Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:10:38pm |
re: #58 Dark_Falcon
I don’t agreed with Tanenhaus. That said, conservatism will not make a comeback until and unless it is willing to open up and be inclusive.
The GOP has to go back to Goldwater principles. The GOP doesn’t win without fisc-cons.
| 62 |
Spare O'Lake Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:12:02pm |
re: #35 reine.de.tout
That would be you and me, and perhaps Dark Falcon … Spare O’Lake? We are few, but we are here. FWIW.
Ich bin ein question mark.
| 63 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:12:49pm |
re: #61 Sharmuta
True! Often its a Republican oval office and a Dem house that actually runs best.
| 64 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:13:05pm |
re: #52 Charles
Hmmm…I’ll have to add that to my list. My thinking is that “conservatism” has taken a wrong turn and it seems to be at a dead end. But looking back at Lincoln, he was a practical, “progressive” and forward looking president. This current strain of conservatism might be at the end but the consept can (and probably will) continue in a different form.
| 65 |
freetoken Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:13:38pm |
re: #61 Sharmuta
The GOP has to go back to Goldwater principles.
I think I know what you mean… but I repeat my earlier statement - there is no “going back” in life.
Goldwater had a luxury we don’t have, which was a post-Eisenhower American world-wide economic dominance, and the co-requisite baby-boom expansion of the “middle class”.
| 66 |
Timmeh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:14:18pm |
I think I see what’s going to be the next Outrageous Outrage.
White House strips immigration policing powers from Arizona sheriff
Sheriff Joe Arpaio
A controversial Arizona sheriff known for taking a hard line against illegal immigrants has been stripped of some of his powers in what he described as a political move by the Obama administration.Joe Arpaio, a gruff lawman who styles himself as America’s toughest sheriff, has won acclaim from US anti-immigrant forces for his relentless pursuit of mostly Hispanic illegal immigrants in Maricopa county, Arizona, a fast-growing county of 4 million people that is home to Phoenix, the nation’s fifth largest city.
Arpaio’s aggressive tactics include the jailing of illegal immigrants in tent cities surrounded by barbed wire in the middle of Arizona’s searingly hot summers, the reduction of meal costs to 20 cents per day, the use of pink jail clothing for men, and chain gangs for women inmates.
| 67 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:14:52pm |
The sleepers are really coming out today:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
| 68 |
Sharmuta Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:15:00pm |
re: #63 Rightwingconspirator
True! Often its a Republican oval office and a Dem house that actually runs best.
Senator Goldwater was much less willing to deal with social conservatives, and was much more of a liberal in those areas. For example- Goldwater was pro-choice, and pro-science. When people like that are back in control of the party, and not being held hostage by the religious right, the GOP can come back.
| 69 |
Kosh's Shadow Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:15:01pm |
re: #64 Killgore Trout
Hmmm…I’ll have to add that to my list. My thinking is that “conservatism” has taken a wrong turn and it seems to be at a dead end. But looking back at Lincoln, he was a practical, “progressive” and forward looking president. This current strain of conservatism might be at the end but the consept can (and probably will) continue in a different form.
I would hope so, because the alternative, modern liberalism, will leave the West much like the Roman Empire, as the citizens live off the bread and circuses supplied by the state.
| 70 |
reine.de.tout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:15:12pm |
re: #38 Walter L. Newton
What am I, chopped liver. Gee, thanks…
oof!
Sorry Walter!
And you of course!
| 71 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:15:51pm |
re: #32 reine.de.tout
My values are the same they’ve always been. I have no fear of posting my thoughts here. I don’t care if others around do not agree.
And this is why, in a very short time, I’ve really come to appreciate this place. I doubt we’d agree on very much but being able to post as you say is a real freedom that I greatly appreciate.
Went to upding you but it seems I don’t have enough posts here yet. I can understand that change (but can I get a troll hunting license? It would be good practice for whitetail season :) ) Still, you’ll have to have a virtual upding for now.
William
| 72 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:16:53pm |
| 73 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:17:22pm |
re: #66 Timmeh
Outrage he has been restricted from arresting illegal immigrants?
| 74 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:18:01pm |
re: #69 Kosh’s Shadow
I would hope so, because the alternative, modern liberalism, will leave the West much like the Roman Empire, as the citizens live off the bread and circuses supplied by the state.
How do you figure? I mean, as a part of “the west” in a comparatively very liberal country, I’d like to know how my civilization will crumble.
| 75 |
Sharmuta Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:18:22pm |
re: #65 freetoken
I think I know what you mean… but I repeat my earlier statement - there is no “going back” in life.
Goldwater had a luxury we don’t have, which was a post-Eisenhower American world-wide economic dominance, and the co-requisite baby-boom expansion of the “middle class”.
Valid point. But the general principles are there, and can be built on, if someone would tell the religious right to sit down and play nice. Instead, we’re held hostage to the fringe.
| 76 |
Kronocide Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:19:27pm |
I feel like I’ve always been changing. But the last year has been quite a shocka. The problem with conservatism isn’t the term it’s the people who are defining it now. If they win at it then conservatism is dead.
| 77 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:19:29pm |
The 50-comment rule is going to work very well. I didn’t consider this, but it has the benefit of getting people to post comments and make their views known, instead of lurking and dinging without having to defend anything.
| 79 |
Sharmuta Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:20:06pm |
re: #77 Charles
The 50-comment rule is going to work very well. I didn’t consider this, but it has the benefit of getting people to post comments and make their views known, instead of lurking and dinging without having to defend anything/
It will encourage newbies to jump into the conversations too.
| 80 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:20:16pm |
re: #66 Timmeh
I think I see what’s going to be the next Outrageous Outrage.
White House strips immigration policing powers from Arizona sheriffSheriff Joe Arpaio
Actually, I’m siding with Arpaio on this one. He’s got a mammoth need for attention, but he does good work in removing criminals from the streets. The Obama administration is just playing politics.
| 81 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:20:42pm |
re: #77 Charles
The 50-comment rule is going to work very well. I didn’t consider this, but it has the benefit of getting people to post comments and make their views known, instead of lurking and dinging without having to defend anything.
Quite Concur.
| 83 |
webevintage Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:22:11pm |
re: #59 freetoken
Specifically, the desire to recreate Ronald Reagan and 1980… or those who want to return to the golden era of the 1950’s.
Most people who want to go back to the “good old days” always seem to forget that the good old days really were not all that good.
| 84 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:22:23pm |
re: #52 Charles
Here’s the book — I recommend it:
I think that I shall read it, I saw him on Book TV a couple weeks back. I trust the content is a little more reasoned than the title. To declare Conservatism dead, as opposed to the power that be within the current Republican Party, is to deny the tendency/instinct of at least half of the population.
No doubt it will take time to recompose Conservatism politically, but the natural desire to preserve will not simply die and become “progressive”.
| 85 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:25:13pm |
re: #72 Charles
I may be about to get schooled here but I admit I support that strict sheriff and police having the ability to detain illegal immigrants. How much to worry about that association Charles sent is something I’ll now have to consider. But LAPD has a sad history there in my opinion. While the Minutemen may have gone nutty, there is a very real need for something like that run well.
| 86 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:26:27pm |
re: #83 webevintage
Most people who want to go back to the “good old days” always seem to forget that the good old days really were not all that good.
‘Cause the Good Old Days weren’t always good, and Tomorrow ain’t as bad as seeems’
| 87 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:26:43pm |
re: #61 Sharmuta
The GOP has to go back to Goldwater principles. The GOP doesn’t win without fisc-cons.
Hmmm.. I would suggest (Okay, I’m ducking already) that the last Fiscon was Clinton, who between 1996 and 2000 balanced the budget, reined in spending, and was paying down the debt.
When GW was campaigning in 2000, even as the tech bubble was collapsing, he was holding up three one dollar bills on the campaign trail, explaining how one dollar was to go to tax relief, (in a stock market crash!), how one was going to debt relief (as if!), and one was going to Social Security.
Great theater. Really, really unstuck from reality, though.
As we have seen.
| 88 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:26:44pm |
re: #85 Rightwingconspirator
I may be about to get schooled here but I admit I support that strict sheriff and police having the ability to detain illegal immigrants. How much to worry about that association Charles sent is something I’ll now have to consider. But LAPD has a sad history there in my opinion. While the Minutemen may have gone nutty, there is a very real need for something like that run well.
Agreed.
| 89 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:27:15pm |
re: #85 Rightwingconspirator
I may be about to get schooled here but I admit I support that strict sheriff and police having the ability to detain illegal immigrants. How much to worry about that association Charles sent is something I’ll now have to consider. But LAPD has a sad history there in my opinion. While the Minutemen may have gone nutty, there is a very real need for something like that run well.
How is Arpaio connected to the LAPD?
| 90 |
freetoken Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:28:45pm |
re: #75 Sharmuta
Then the challenge remains for someone to take Goldwater’s beliefs and understanding of governance, deconstruct them to separate out those which were unique to his time (i.e., time dependent) from those which are relevant to today and the future, and then take those beliefs which are relevant to today and build a contemporary political movement around them.
I’ve not seen that happening.
Mostly I see reactionary responses, especially from the revanchist/atavist crowd but also those who might be considered more mainstream.
| 91 |
Kosh's Shadow Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:29:29pm |
re: #74 cenotaphium
How do you figure? I mean, as a part of “the west” in a comparatively very liberal country, I’d like to know how my civilization will crumble.
We can look at Rome, first. It’s late here, so I’ll have to be sketchy. Rome ended up basically outsourcing its defense to barbarians, because Romans weren’t as interested. They also ended up with an inbred (not so much physically, but what happens to a closed group) ruling class, that spent money on the Emperor’s whim, with limited checks and balances.
Basically, people became less active in running their own lives and their country, and let others do it for them.
While governments make some advances, ultimately, it comes down to individuals; the governments pay but don’t necessarily develop. A system as I described tries to minimize risk, which also minimizes advancement - no risk, minimal advancement.
Rome eventually collapsed to the barbarians; we have more advanced adversaries (China) as well as barbaric ones (Al Qaeda and other jihadists).
And I see signs that we aren’t going to defend our culture. Some are real, like the desire to pull out of anyplace dangerous, without realizing that lets the danger get bigger. Another sign to me are things like the ending of Battlestar Galactica, and that few people actually found a problem with them just giving up and deciding their culture wasn’t worth preserving. I think that is representative of many people’s thoughts today.
Conservatives tend to think their culture is worth preserving, even when it isn’t, so what we need is the combination. The death of one means the other goes hog-wild.
I’m trying to write more to connect this, but it’s 12:30 AM where I live, and I am too tired. I would be glad to continue the discussion tomorrow when I’m awake.
| 92 |
metrolibertarian Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:29:50pm |
While I hold no brief for the conservative movement, the left in 2005 looked eerily similar in its craziness until Katrina. The left and some Dems were celebrating people like Hugo Chavez, Cindy Sheehan, and George Galloway. Rumors that President Bush’s re-election was illegitimate because he “stole” Ohio were rampant on the internet, and even Keith Olbermann “investigated” this. The House even “looked” into it.
Then the Dems stopped, collected itself, and moved towards a less extreme position on the left/right spectrum, allowing people like Heath Shuler to run for office. If the GOP recognizes that politicians like Governor Crist of Florida are the way to go, it will revive itself.
| 93 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:33:16pm |
re: #91 Kosh’s Shadow
I’m trying to write more to connect this, but it’s 12:30 AM where I live, and I am too tired. I would be glad to continue the discussion tomorrow when I’m awake.
Upding because you provided a structured answer. I have plenty of objections, but I’ll expect a discussion later then.
| 94 |
Racer X Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:33:43pm |
To Be 6 Again…
A man was sitting on the edge of the bed, observing his wife, looking at herself in the mirror. Since her birthday was not far off he asked what she’d like to have for her Birthday.
‘I’d like to be six again’, she replied, still looking in the mirror.
On the morning of her Birthday, he arose early,made her a nice big bowl of Lucky Charms, and then took her to Six Flags theme park. What a day!
He put her on every ride in the park; the Death Slide, the Wall of Fear, the screaming Monster Roller Coaster, everything there was. Five hours later they staggered out of the theme park. Her head was reeling and her stomach felt upside down.
He then took her to a McDonald’s where he ordered her a Happy Meal with extra fries and a chocolate shake.
Then it was off to a movie, popcorn, a soda pop, and her favorite candy, M&M’s.. What a fabulous adventure!
Finally she wobbled home with her husband and collapsed into bed exhausted. He leaned over his wife with a big smile and lovingly asked, ‘Well Dear, what was it like being six again?’
Her eyes slowly opened and her expression suddenly changed. ‘I meant my dress size, you knucklehead!!!’
The moral of the story: Even when a man is listening, he is gonna get it wrong.
| 95 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:34:22pm |
The Tanenhaus book is good because it’s not just a leftist screed. He really understands the historical roots of conservatism, and makes a powerful argument that it may have reached the end of its viability as a political movement.
Whether this is a good thing or not is another matter entirely.
| 96 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:34:53pm |
re: #84 The Shadow Do
If he wants to declare the GOP and it’s specific platform, or more to the point, it’s deeds rather than words, as dead then it would be hard to disagree. Simply claiming conservatism is dead though is problematic. Like someone said in the other thread the terms ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ don’t mean anything anymore.
Socons and Ficons are so far away from each other, it is almost laughable to put them together under a common label. If the socons pull the ficons down with the sinking ship we are all screwed.
| 97 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:38:27pm |
re: #92 metrolibertarian
While I hold no brief for the conservative movement, the left in 2005 looked eerily similar in its craziness until Katrina. The left and some Dems were celebrating people like Hugo Chavez, Cindy Sheehan, and George Galloway. Rumors that President Bush’s re-election was illegitimate because he “stole” Ohio were rampant on the internet, and even Keith Olbermann “investigated” this. The House even “looked” into it.
Then the Dems stopped, collected itself, and moved towards a less extreme position on the left/right spectrum, allowing people like Heath Shuler to run for office. If the GOP recognizes that politicians like Governor Crist of Florida are the way to go, it will revive itself.
Good comment. The Epic Fail of Katrina (yes, yes, I know that everybody had a hand in screwing the pooch, but the Feds looked entirely impotent, when they were the one entity that could have acted effectively, and didn’t) was a turning point for the Bush Presidency. When he said “Helluva job, Brownie.” he lost the rank and file.
Three words. Fancy that.
| 98 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:41:00pm |
re: #92 metrolibertarian
While I hold no brief for the conservative movement, the left in 2005 looked eerily similar in its craziness until Katrina. The left and some Dems were celebrating people like Hugo Chavez, Cindy Sheehan, and George Galloway. Rumors that President Bush’s re-election was illegitimate because he “stole” Ohio were rampant on the internet, and even Keith Olbermann “investigated” this. The House even “looked” into it.
Then the Dems stopped, collected itself, and moved towards a less extreme position on the left/right spectrum, allowing people like Heath Shuler to run for office. If the GOP recognizes that politicians like Governor Crist of Florida are the way to go, it will revive itself.
It got so bad in 2004-2005, at one point the MSM was reporting Bush reinstating the draft rumors from the moonbatosphere as if they were facts.
| 99 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:42:47pm |
re: #95 Charles
He really understands the historical roots of conservatism, …
I always get a kick out of telling people that Adam Smith (yes, that one) distrusted bankers and believed in US style public education. Explodes a few heads…
William
| 100 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:46:46pm |
re: #99 wlewisiii
I always get a kick out of telling people that Adam Smith (yes, that one) distrusted bankers and believed in US style public education. Explodes a few heads…
William
Ah, you live in the southern tier of our Great Republic!
(((Deep sarcasm, here. Hoping I am dead wrong.)))
| 101 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:47:07pm |
re: #97 austin_blue
Good comment. The Epic Fail of Katrina (yes, yes, I know that everybody had a hand in screwing the pooch, but the Feds looked entirely impotent, when they were the one entity that could have acted effectively, and didn’t) was a turning point for the Bush Presidency. When he said “Helluva job, Brownie.” he lost the rank and file.
Three words. Fancy that.
It hurt him with me, I can say that. He was entirely too willing to believe what he was told and didn’t have his info checked. It was a foolish mistake (though not evidence of malice), and it got people killed.
| 102 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:47:33pm |
re: #99 wlewisiii
I always get a kick out of telling people that Adam Smith (yes, that one) distrusted bankers and believed in US style public education. Explodes a few heads…
William
I love how the Libertarian party likes to use Thomas Paine as a poster boy but he was one of the original proponents of social security, nationalized health care, and publicly funded education. Three big things they are against.
| 103 |
Timmeh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:49:01pm |
re: #73 Rightwingconspirator
Outrage because Obama is “soft on illegal immigration.”
| 104 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:49:22pm |
re: #102 ArchangelMichael
I love how the Libertarian party likes to use Thomas Paine as a poster boy but he was one of the original proponents of social security, nationalized health care, and publicly funded education. Three big things they are against.
Isn’t this like the “traditional Judeo-Christian values” rethoric that tries to incorporate the Founders into the same thinking?
| 105 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:49:27pm |
re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist
LAPD has special order number 40. I oppose it. It bars LAPD from arresting for illegal immigration. So the LAPD and Sheriff now have a certain retriction in common.
[Link: www.judicialwatch.org…]
| 106 |
TheMatrix31 Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:50:11pm |
re: #103 Timmeh
I’m pissed at anyone who is “soft on illegal immigration”.
| 107 |
metrolibertarian Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:51:44pm |
re: #101 Dark_Falcon
It hurt him with me, I can say that. He was entirely too willing to believe what he was told and didn’t have his info checked. It was a foolish mistake (though not evidence of malice), and it got people killed.
Bush was far too trusting of people whose competence was severely lacking. That George Tenet still had a job on September 12th, 2001, and was at all involved in the intelligence gathering before the war in Iraq speaks to this fact.
| 108 |
Velvet Elvis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:51:50pm |
re: #6 Killgore Trout
If Frist runs for Governor of TN I’ll probably vote for him despite the whole Terry Schivo remote diagnosis thing just because He’ll at least be able to fix TennCare. I don’t like his politics but he’s competent and he’s sharp and I don’t have a lot of faith in the TN Democratic party coming up with anyone who can really match him.
| 109 |
Kragar Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:52:20pm |
re: #105 Rightwingconspirator
LAPD has special order number 40. I oppose it. It bars LAPD from arresting for illegal immigration. So the LAPD and Sheriff now have a certain retriction in common.
[Link: www.judicialwatch.org…]
Not be be confused with Special Order 66, where they round up and execute all Jedi
/
| 110 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:52:29pm |
The Limbaugh fans keep popping in to the St. Louis Rams thread to down-ding any comments that criticize the Almighty Rush.
| 111 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:53:21pm |
re: #105 Rightwingconspirator
LAPD has special order number 40. I oppose it. It bars LAPD from arresting for illegal immigration. So the LAPD and Sheriff now have a certain retriction in common.
[Link: www.judicialwatch.org…]
A lot of police departments choose very carefully how to deal with immigration issues. I can certainly see why LAPD would be one of them.
| 112 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:53:28pm |
re: #105 Rightwingconspirator
LAPD has special order number 40. I oppose it. It bars LAPD from arresting for illegal immigration. So the LAPD and Sheriff now have a certain retriction in common.
[Link: www.judicialwatch.org…]
Good article but be careful with that site. Their current video is of one of them being interviewed be Glen Beck, which is a major warning flag.
| 113 |
Timmeh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:53:56pm |
re: #78 McSpiff
50 comment rule?
You have to post 50 comments before you can rate other comments. I know this because I just tried and it told me this. (This one is about my fourth comment so far.)
| 114 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:54:10pm |
re: #101 Dark_Falcon
It hurt him with me, I can say that. He was entirely too willing to believe what he was told and didn’t have his info checked. It was a foolish mistake (though not evidence of malice), and it got people killed.
Well, yes. He was clueless. And people died.
That’s a hell of a legacy for that tragedy.
Thank you, Mr. President!! (((Disclaimer: I lived in New Orleans for ten years of my life. I had several friends and acquaintances (including two aged university professors) die in the disaster.)))
| 115 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:54:17pm |
re: #107 metrolibertarian
Bush was far too trusting of people whose competence was severely lacking. That George Tenet still had a job on September 12th, 2001, and was at all involved in the intelligence gathering before the war in Iraq speaks to this fact.
His default position was always to trust, witness Putin. A big, big defect.
| 116 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:55:42pm |
re: #103 Timmeh
Thx. I hope we get far better control of illegal immigration. I could endorse big increases in the legal quota. But first get a grip on the flow.
| 117 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:56:01pm |
re: #115 The Shadow Do
His default position was always to trust, witness Putin. A big, big defect.
Well, he did claim to be able to see Putin’s soul. But lots of people see things that don’t exist when they’re jet-lagged.
| 118 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:56:24pm |
re: #105 Rightwingconspirator
LAPD has special order number 40. I oppose it. It bars LAPD from arresting for illegal immigration. So the LAPD and Sheriff now have a certain retriction in common.
[Link: www.judicialwatch.org…]
It bars them from asking immigration status at all, not from arresting on hat basis.
I don’t think beat cops on the street should be worrying about that (they have enough to do already), but if they take someone in and find out that he or she is an illegal alien, they should turn them over to ICE at that point, or should after their sentence if convicted or after trial if acquitted or the charges are dropped.
If the Administration pushed (or more to the point allowed) the ICE to actually do it’s job, and combined that with some immigration reforms and labor law enforcement, none of this crap would be necessary not the least of which that damn fence.
| 119 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:56:38pm |
re: #101 Dark_Falcon
It hurt him with me, I can say that. He was entirely too willing to believe what he was told and didn’t have his info checked. It was a foolish mistake (though not evidence of malice), and it got people killed.
Didn’t you want better than that of a Chief Executive Officer?
| 120 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:58:55pm |
re: #110 Charles
The Limbaugh fans keep popping in to the St. Louis Rams thread to down-ding any comments that criticize the Almighty Rush.
The Rams almost deserve Limbaugh the way they’re playing. The Packers and the Vikings have already kicked their asses and the Bears will pummel them in December. In fact, I’ll even go so far as to make a prediction:
On November 1st, the Rams will play the Detroit Lions. I think that the Lions will win that game.
/I know this post has nothing to do the politics of the matter, but I had to say it.
| 121 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:59:11pm |
re: #112 Dark_Falcon
Thanks for the word. I had hoped to respond rapidly, the thread moves fast this evening. Its not easy to find objective info on that very hot topic. Wiki is not it!
| 122 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Oct 12, 2009 9:59:49pm |
re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, he did claim to be able to see Putin’s soul. But lots of people see things that don’t exist when they’re jet-lagged.
Jet lag does not account for rolling with Rummy too long, nor with Brownie, nor with Harriet Meirs, etc etc
| 123 |
metrolibertarian Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:00:16pm |
re: #120 Dark_Falcon
The Lions already beat the Redskins, who beat the Rams, so it seems perfectly reasonable to assume the Lions will beat the Rams.
| 124 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:00:34pm |
re: #120 Dark_Falcon
The Rams almost deserve Limbaugh the way they’re playing. The Packers and the Vikings have already kicked their asses and the Bears will pummel them in December. In fact, I’ll even go so far as to make a prediction:
On November 1st, the Rams will play the Detroit Lions. I think that the Lions will win that game.
/I know this post has nothing to do the politics of the matter, but I had to say it.
I skipped the post, but what are the politics of the matter? I think Limbaugh is a mean blowhard with sucky opportunistic politics, but if he wants to buy a sports team, why shouldn’t he?
| 125 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:01:07pm |
re: #122 The Shadow Do
Jet lag does not account for rolling with Rummy too long, nor with Brownie, nor with Harriet Meirs, etc etc
There was supposed to be a sarc tag…
| 127 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:02:06pm |
re: #119 austin_blue
Didn’t you want better than that of a Chief Executive Officer?
Yes, i did. But my alternative in 2000 was Al Gore and the other guy in 2004 was John f’ing Kerry. I voted for Bush because he was the best option available.
| 128 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:02:07pm |
| 129 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:02:37pm |
re: #100 austin_blue
Ah, you live in the southern tier of our Great Republic!
(((Deep sarcasm, here. Hoping I am dead wrong.)))
Heh. Wisconsin boy, myself. My FIL came from Alabama but he grew up in a company town and his middle management father was paid in script till that was outlawed. He became a major organizer for the United Brotherhood of Carpenters as a result. My family tends to like unionism while mourning the as&hats that ruin so many unions…
William
| 130 |
The Shadow Do Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:02:58pm |
re: #127 Dark_Falcon
Yes, i did. But my alternative in 2000 was Al Gore and the other guy in 2004 was John f’ing Kerry. I voted for Bush because he was the best option available.
Yup, there you have it.
| 131 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:03:53pm |
| 132 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:04:43pm |
re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist
I skipped the post, but what are the politics of the matter? I think Limbaugh is a mean blowhard with sucky opportunistic politics, but if he wants to buy a sports team, why shouldn’t he?
Limbaugh has a history of making nasty racial comments. That might not make him the best manager of a mostly black team.
| 133 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:05:36pm |
re: #132 Dark_Falcon
Limbaugh has a history of making nasty racial comments. That might not make him the best manager of a mostly black team.
I can see your point. Who decides if he gets to, though?
| 134 |
TheMatrix31 Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:06:01pm |
“That’s pretty amazing, winning the Nobel Peace Prize. Ironically, his biggest accomplishment as president so far … winning the Nobel Peace Prize.” -Jay Leno
…seriously.
| 135 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:06:54pm |
re: #134 TheMatrix31
“That’s pretty amazing, winning the Nobel Peace Prize. Ironically, his biggest accomplishment as president so far … winning the Nobel Peace Prize.” -Jay Leno
…seriously.
My most moonbatty colleague responded to the news of the Nobel with “That’s great! What for?”
I don’t think anyone but Alice Walker really seems to understand this.
| 136 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:07:12pm |
re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist
I can see your point. Who decides if he gets to, though?
The other NFL owner and the Commissioner.
| 137 |
Timmeh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:09:51pm |
re: #80 Dark_Falcon
I need to do a little more research before I can say what I think of this federal policy in general or Sheriff Joe Arpaio in particular. I’m not in favor of illegal immigration, but I’m no fan of Arpaio’s grandstanding either. If we are going to go after illegal immigration I don’t see why we can’t do it by measures like changing social security cards so that they can’t be easily forged and going after employers. But, I admit that this is an area I don’t know so much about.
I’m an American living in Japan. I’m a legal immigrant here. Japan is an island nation, so it is not so easy for illegals to enter. Most are visa overstayers rather than people who sneak into the country.
| 138 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:10:32pm |
re: #136 Dark_Falcon
The other NFL owner and the Commissioner.
Well, I wish them well figuring this out.
| 139 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:11:37pm |
re: #127 Dark_Falcon
Yes, i did. But my alternative in 2000 was Al Gore and the other guy in 2004 was John f’ing Kerry. I voted for Bush because he was the best option available.
I hate to pull a Doctor Phil, but “How did that work for ya?”
Here’s Obama on gaining office:
Pretty fair, isn’t it?
| 140 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:16:12pm |
re: #139 austin_blue
I hate to pull a Doctor Phil, but “How did that work for ya?”
Here’s Obama on gaining office:
[Link: donstuff.files.wordpress.com…]
Pretty fair, isn’t it?
Bush worked out for a while, then his weaknesses started to come to the fore.
| 141 |
Political Atheist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:16:27pm |
re: #118 ArchangelMichael
The other “don’t ask” “don’t tell” . Okay yes that’s how it works. But as I see it ICE will not ever be so numerous as to cover our long borders and critically the cities with big ports of entry like LAX. Those cities need the authority. All the police should have the authority to enforce all the criminal laws. How they are assigned is another matter. But the authority should be there. At least in port of entry counties. Border states. Etc. Lets get after the employers and the illegals. And the fence. And BTW, some incentives for Mexico to treat our southern border as they do their own with Guatemala. Lets not have San Diego and L.A. as the easiest place to flee to for Mexican drug org.
| 142 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:19:53pm |
re: #137 Timmeh
I’m an American living in Japan.
Anecdotally, I’ve heard that Japan is very inhospitable to foreigners. Do you care to tell what your impression has been?
| 143 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:22:00pm |
re: #142 cenotaphium
Anecdotally, I’ve heard that Japan is very inhospitable to foreigners. Do you care to tell what your impression has been?
Japan is a multicultural and diverse nation.
Japanese 98.5%
Koreans 0.5%
Cninese 0.4%
Other 0.6%
| 144 |
lastlaugh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:24:29pm |
re: #141 Rightwingconspirator
Being in a drug dealer is an arrestable offense. I mean do you want every stop with a Hispanic person to turn into an immigration interrogation? What’s the probable cause here? Or do all US citizens need to have “their papers in order” in case they see a police officer that day?
| 145 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:25:32pm |
re: #143 Bagua
Japan is a multicultural and diverse nation.
Am I detecting a certain.. sarcasm?
More to the point, I’ve been to a few places that were very streamlined ethnically, but welcoming nonetheless. Then again, I wasn’t trying to move in either.
| 146 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:26:52pm |
re: #144 lastlaugh
Being in a drug dealer is an arrestable offense.
Damn sodomy laws! When will government get out of the bedroom?!
/
| 147 |
lastlaugh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:27:07pm |
re: #144 lastlaugh
“Being a drug dealer” not “in a Drug dealer”
Whoops.
| 148 |
Timmeh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:27:08pm |
Interesting story about Russia.
Seems organized crime has influence very high in the government.
Russians gripped by YouTube video claims of government role in hedge fund scam
Makes Russia less attractive as a place to invest money.
| 149 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:28:02pm |
re: #141 Rightwingconspirator
The other “don’t ask” “don’t tell” . Okay yes that’s how it works. But as I see it ICE will not ever be so numerous as to cover our long borders and critically the cities with big ports of entry like LAX. Those cities need the authority. All the police should have the authority to enforce all the criminal laws. How they are assigned is another matter. But the authority should be there. At least in port of entry counties. Border states. Etc. Lets get after the employers and the illegals. And the fence. And BTW, some incentives for Mexico to treat our southern border as they do their own with Guatemala. Lets not have San Diego and L.A. as the easiest place to flee to for Mexican drug org.
I think Mexico pretty much just shoots everything that moves on their southern border. I’m not sure I want them to try that down by the Rio Grande.
| 150 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:28:29pm |
re: #145 cenotaphium
They do have illegal aliens however, about 5,000 Indonesians for example, and 3,000 Pakistanis.
| 151 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:28:30pm |
re: #140 Dark_Falcon
Bush worked out for a while, then his weaknesses started to come to the fore.
Okay. And what did it leave the present inhabitant of the White House when he came into office?
Would you call it an advantageous situation, or a crock of shit? Somewhere in between?
I gotta tell you, my opinion is (and I could be completely wrong) is that the fact that our economy has not *completely* cratered is because of the stimulus package. Should more more money have been put up front for job creation? Yes. But what does that mean?
Street cleaners?
Look, this country needs to invest in windmill manufacturing. Solar panel manufacturing. Nuclear power technology.
We need to start *designing and building things* again.
Those are real jobs.
| 152 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:29:02pm |
re: #143 Bagua
Japan is a multicultural and diverse nation.
Japanese 98.5%
Koreans 0.5%
Cninese 0.4%
Other 0.6%
I had a classmate while doing my teaching credential who was Korean, raised in Japan.
| 154 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:30:14pm |
re: #144 lastlaugh
Or do all US citizens need to have “their papers in order” in case they see a police officer that day?
In Europe, we had the fantastic deal of traveling without a passport between nations, only hamstrung a bit by being required to somehow identify oneself as a European, like.. uh, with a passport or something.
(In fairness the treaty has actually made it easier to jump around between nations)
| 155 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:30:25pm |
re: #144 lastlaugh
Being in a drug dealer is an arrestable offense. I mean do you want every stop with a Hispanic person to turn into an immigration interrogation? What’s the probable cause here? Or do all US citizens need to have “their papers in order” in case they see a police officer that day?
I suspect that if LAPD takes an active role in immigration enforcement, their ability to be effective police in many parts of Los Angeles will pretty much end.
| 156 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:32:14pm |
| 157 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:32:58pm |
re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist
I had a classmate while doing my teaching credential who was Korean, raised in Japan.
Then he or she was treated as a second class citizen.
Oh, wait! Koreans can’t be citizens in Japan!
Possibly the most insular (read: racist) society in the world.
Don’t *even* Google leatherworkers…
| 158 |
Timmeh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:33:15pm |
re: #142 cenotaphium
Anecdotally, I’ve heard that Japan is very inhospitable to foreigners. Do you care to tell what your impression has been?
In my experience it’s not particularly inhospitable (assuming you are willing to abide by local laws, etc.)
| 159 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:34:54pm |
re: #151 austin_blue
Okay. And what did it leave the present inhabitant of the White House when he came into office?
Would you call it an advantageous situation, or a crock of shit? Somewhere in between?
I gotta tell you, my opinion is (and I could be completely wrong) is that the fact that our economy has not *completely* cratered is because of the stimulus package. Should more more money have been put up front for job creation? Yes. But what does that mean?
Street cleaners?
Look, this country needs to invest in windmill manufacturing. Solar panel manufacturing. Nuclear power technology.
We need to start *designing and building things* again.
Those are real jobs.
I agree with the bolded part. As for the first part, I need to think about it.
| 160 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:35:19pm |
re: #157 austin_blue
Then he or she was treated as a second class citizen.
Oh, wait! Koreans can’t be citizens in Japan!
Possibly the most insular (read: racist) society in the world.
Don’t *even* Google leatherworkers…
I got the impression it was not all that easy. But he was a very cool guy.
| 161 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:36:14pm |
re: #144 lastlaugh
[…] Or do all US citizens need to have “their papers in order” in case they see a police officer that day?
That is not at all necessary or desirable. Simple identity check during interactions such as arrest, traffic stops, and other interactions with police that have probable cause for a threshold inquiry would quickly touch the criminal element of the illegals.
Even checking the immigration status of convicted criminals in prisons is highly controversial. The alternative is not random ID checks in the streets.
| 162 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:36:15pm |
re: #142 cenotaphium
Anecdotally, I’ve heard that Japan is very inhospitable to foreigners. Do you care to tell what your impression has been?
I was in Japan for a while back in the early ’80s (I was listening to AFN Tokyo radio when the Challenger went to heaven instead of orbit…)
“Forever Gaijin” was the phrase in those days. Perhaps a reflection of when I was there, but I undersand that gaijin isn’t too PC these days? I always considered it better than some of the really nasty alternatives… :facepalm:
William
| 163 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:38:36pm |
re: #151 austin_blue
We need to start *designing and building things* again.
Those are real jobs.
“We need to start building things again” is a Paulian talking point meant to address shortcomings that they don’t like to overtly acknowledge about returning to the Gold Standard.
We don’t need to have people working in factories. This isn’t 1909. That is moving backwards. We should have robots manufacturing everything for us now as it is.
| 164 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:42:59pm |
re: #159 Dark_Falcon
I agree with the bolded part. As for the first part, I need to think about it.
Nope, Wind Farms are Subsidy Farms, there is no justification for their construction. Solar at the moment is a bit player. When these technologies mature the free market demand will cause their employment levels to skyrocket. As a government industry they will be an inefficient cash cow.
| 165 |
Timmeh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:43:23pm |
re: #157 austin_blue
Then he or she was treated as a second class citizen.
Oh, wait! Koreans can’t be citizens in Japan!
Possibly the most insular (read: racist) society in the world.
Don’t *even* Google leatherworkers…
I think that’s a bit of an overstatement. The country (culture, social attitudes) is evolving just like the US and other modern countries. Go back just a few decades in the US or other countries and look at some of the racial/gender laws and practices that existed at the time. Japan in 2009 is pretty modern in social attitudes overall, although some pockets of backward think still exist.
Korean residents who *want* to become Japanese citizens can do so. I could, if I wanted to (I don’t).
| 166 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:44:00pm |
re: #159 Dark_Falcon
I agree with the bolded part. As for the first part, I need to think about it.
Please do. I do not mean to be condescending, but do a little research. The difference between the world during the election of 2000 and the world after 9/11 was, sure to say, fundamental. Despite the fact that the Bush Admin had every reason to believe, based on credible intelligence, that an attack was coming, they dithered. Richard Clark was screaming at the top of his lungs that we were soon going to be attacked.
(((I like the word “dithered’. It is much nicer than “They fucked the dog”.)))
| 167 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:49:17pm |
re: #166 austin_blue
Richard Clark was screaming at the top of his lungs that we were soon going to be attacked.
Glenn Beck is predicting fascism and Ron Paul is predicting the collapse of the dollar. Hindsight is 20/20 and quacks predict the end of the world every day. Eventually they’re going to be right.
| 168 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:50:55pm |
re: #163 ArchangelMichael
“We need to start building things again” is a Paulian talking point meant to address shortcomings that they don’t like to overtly acknowledge about returning to the Gold Standard.
We don’t need to have people working in factories. This isn’t 1909. That is moving backwards. We should have robots manufacturing everything for us now as it is.
I design and build and make things on my laptop! Robots can’t design video games or paint funky art to spec. There are ways forward, we have a new merchantile economy springing up through the internet, people who can make a living through Etsy and Ebay and other sites, just making stuff, finding a market for the stuff they make via the web. None of this was possible ten years ago.
| 169 |
lastlaugh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:52:11pm |
re: #161 Bagua
This is a fair point. I’ll let it stand since I need to sign off. Night All.
| 170 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:52:30pm |
re: #163 ArchangelMichael
“We need to start building things again” is a Paulian talking point meant to address shortcomings that they don’t like to overtly acknowledge about returning to the Gold Standard.
We don’t need to have people working in factories. This isn’t 1909. That is moving backwards. We should have robots manufacturing everything for us now as it is.
Okey Dokey, then.
We have over three hundred million people in this country. If you don’t think we should be making things, what do you those people should be doing? Setting up shops to sell the objects that are made overseas and sold at a profit that goes back overseas
How stupid is that? We should be building and selling to the rest of the world.
| 171 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:53:36pm |
re: #170 austin_blue
Okey Dokey, then.
We have over three hundred million people in this country. If you don’t think we should be making things, what do you those people should be doing? Setting up shops to sell the objects that are made overseas and sold at a profit that goes back overseas
How stupid is that? We should be building and selling to the rest of the world.
Quite Concur.
| 172 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:54:03pm |
re: #167 Killgore Trout
Glenn Beck is predicting fascism and Ron Paul is predicting the collapse of the dollar. Hindsight is 20/20 and quacks predict the end of the world every day. Eventually they’re going to be right.
I heard a quote (don’t know by who) where old people tend to like to predict the end of the world because they can’t imagine the world going on without them.
| 173 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:54:08pm |
re: #167 Killgore Trout
Glenn Beck is predicting fascism and Ron Paul is predicting the collapse of the dollar. Hindsight is 20/20 and quacks predict the end of the world every day. Eventually they’re going to be right.
Clark was right on. Big difference. He had it nailed.
| 174 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:57:17pm |
re: #170 austin_blue
You can down ding me all you want but it’s true.
Ask any Paulian… Any Paulian about “America needing to build things again” and they will go off on a non-stop rant which will often include isolationism and the fact that college educations are worthless scams to put people in debt up to their eyeballs… I shit you not.
Perhaps you wanted me to offer a solution. OK…
Working in factories is a non starter. We can never compete against developing nations in terms of costs. We need more engineers and scientists. Full stop. Not more factory workers. Not more farm workers. Not more McDonalds employees. Not more lawyers. Definitely not anymore touchy-feely social sciences workers either.
Real Engineers and Scientists. The “product” of American labor should be intellectual property, not “widgets”.
I saw your reply after I was basically done with this but specifically. We cant “make things to sell to the rest of the world” because they do it all already, MUCH cheaper. Nothing we do will change that and it is a reality that Americans need to wake up to and not let paleo-libertarians and labor unions dictate a fantasy about.
| 175 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:58:34pm |
re: #170 austin_blue
Okey Dokey, then.
We have over three hundred million people in this country. If you don’t think we should be making things, what do you those people should be doing? Setting up shops to sell the objects that are made overseas and sold at a profit that goes back overseas
How stupid is that? We should be building and selling to the rest of the world.
For a while many of them were building houses! Which was great, because you can’t export houses. Then the housing bubble popped. Hooray housing speculation and reckless lending!
| 176 |
austin_blue Mon, Oct 12, 2009 10:59:29pm |
Ach. Late. Good night, Lizards.
Sweet dreams, all.
I hope for more good discussions tomorrow, without bomb throwers, and whacks, and trolls, and socks…
((I know, I know, it’s a dream I have))
| 177 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:01:48pm |
re: #176 austin_blue
Ach. Late. Good night, Lizards.
Sweet dreams, all.
I hope for more good discussions tomorrow, without bomb throwers, and whacks, and trolls, and socks…
((I know, I know, it’s a dream I have))
You give yourself a lot of labels.
| 178 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:03:31pm |
re: #174 ArchangelMichael
You can down ding me all you want but it’s true.
Ask any Paulian… Any Paulian about “America needing to build things again” and they will go off on a non-stop rant which will often include isolationism and the fact that college educations are worthless scams to put people in debt up to their eyeballs… I shit you not.
Perhaps you wanted me to offer a solution. OK…
Working in factories is a non starter. We can never compete against developing nations in terms of costs. We need more engineers and scientists. Full stop. Not more factory workers. Not more farm workers. Not more McDonalds employees. Not more lawyers. Definitely not anymore touchy-feely social sciences workers either.
Real Engineers and Scientists. The “product” of American labor should be intellectual property, not “widgets”.
Better start subsidizing education more (which many conservatives don’t like) because the current state of affordability of higher education is going in the wrong direction.
Maybe not more lawyers (though keep in mind that lawyers are essential to defending intellectual property) but definitely more health care workers. Many parts of the country have nursing shortages. Ask Ron Paul if his doctorate in medicine was a scam. 9_9
| 179 |
Velvet Elvis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:05:04pm |
re: #163 ArchangelMichael
“We need to start building things again” is a Paulian talking point meant to address shortcomings that they don’t like to overtly acknowledge about returning to the Gold Standard.
We don’t need to have people working in factories. This isn’t 1909. That is moving backwards. We should have robots manufacturing everything for us now as it is.
You don’t think the fact that we have no industrial base is a problem?
You don’t the fact that if we want to implement next generation nuclear power technology we’re going to have to pay the Japanese and Canadians to do it for us is a problem?
You don’t think the blight of Detroit is a problem? It used to be one of the great American cities and now they can’t pay people to live there.
| 180 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:07:57pm |
re: #179 Conservative Moonbat
There is a big difference between a competitive industrial base and a government job farm making useless windmills. Sapping our economy to “make jobs” will be counter productive in all real terms except political.
| 181 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:09:26pm |
Gotta go splat on my bed. More tomorrow, promise. God willing, it might even be coherent… :banghead:
William
| 182 |
Gus Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:10:02pm |
I’ll take “we need to start building things again.” I’m at my wits end here.
| 183 |
Killgore Trout Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:12:18pm |
re: #182 Gus 802
I’ll take “we need to start building things again.” I’m at my wits end here.
It’s late and I’ve had a few beverages. It’s a battle best left for later.
| 184 |
Gus Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:13:33pm |
re: #183 Killgore Trout
It’s late and I’ve had a few beverages. It’s a battle best left for later.
I just had a slug of whiskey. Helps numb the thoughts of money but it’s only temporary.
| 185 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:14:20pm |
re: #178 WindUpBird
Better start subsidizing education more (which many conservatives don’t like) because the current state of affordability of higher education is going in the wrong direction.
Maybe not more lawyers (though keep in mind that lawyers are essential to defending intellectual property) but definitely more health care workers. Many parts of the country have nursing shortages. Ask Ron Paul if his doctorate in medicine was a scam. 9_9
Unlike the Paulians, I don’t think college is a waste of money. I’m not so adverse to the idea of debt that some of them are, that I don’t see a student loan as an “investment”. I didn’t speak to Ron Paul himself but I heard this “school is a waste of money” spiel from someone who knows Ron Paul and Peter Schiff personally. The guy is the biggest Gold Standard nut I’ve ever met too.
I do see science, engineering, and CS classrooms empty while social science majors are legion. The school I graduated from last year has been trying to start a physics major for years. No one wants it. The CS classes were getting fewer and fewer. While this is going on, the social science classes are packed. They are building yet another social science building there, even after 2 other buildings are mostly monopolized by those departments.
| 186 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:14:22pm |
re: #183 Killgore Trout
It’s late and I’ve had a few beverages. It’s a battle best left for later.
Agreed. It’s after 1am here and this thread is winding down. I’m going to sign off for the night myself. Stay sane everyone, and I’ll see you in the morning.
| 187 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:16:03pm |
re: #182 Gus 802
I’ll take “we need to start building things again.” I’m at my wits end here.
The U.S. economy is the worlds largest, our GDP in the top ten, the leader in science, medicine, technology, and foreign investments.
Yet if the government doesn’t step in and start an industry building windmills we are doomed. Heresy I say.
| 188 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:16:26pm |
re: #174 ArchangelMichael
Working in factories is a non starter. We can never compete against developing nations in terms of costs. We need more engineers and scientists. Full stop. Not more factory workers. Not more farm workers. Not more McDonalds employees. Not more lawyers. Definitely not anymore touchy-feely social sciences workers either.
I’ve had similar discussions regarding the future of Sweden several times, and the debate has been flowing on a national level as well. Of course the situations between our nations is extremely different. However, I think our case only shows more clearly the problem with trying to resurrect the industrial era’s values and economy.
With our low population and relatively high costs we can’t compete with anything but trade protectionism that will hurt us in the long term as well. We can and do compete with good education and technology. I’m not saying we should abandon the use of our natural resources, but that it should supplement building a future economy rather than build our coffin as we cling to an unsustainable “industrialized mindset”.
Going from a socialist mindset and labour intensive economy to a bold new future of technology creation and design won’t be easy, but I think it can be done.
| 190 |
Velvet Elvis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:17:00pm |
re: #180 Bagua
There is a big difference between a competitive industrial base and a government job farm making useless windmills. Sapping our economy to “make jobs” will be counter productive in all real terms except political.
As opposed to the Bush stimulus when they just gave everybody money? What was it $2000 a household? Paying people to do work is more productive than just giving them the money to spend directly. I don’t see how you can argue with that.
As to the utility of wind power, I guess that all depends on your stance on AGW and the necessity of stopping it. If you believe in AGW, subsidizing wind farms in order to put coal out of business is a necessary evil.
I’d personally rather see the money invested in next generation nuclear technology but that’s not going to happen without subsidies either.
On the other hand, building windmills keeps more of the money in the domestic economy. The reactors Westinghouse can build are still based on 1960s technology because there has been no serious money invested in nuclear research here since three mile island (which had zero casualties).
| 191 |
Velvet Elvis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:18:08pm |
re: #184 Gus 802
I just had a slug of whiskey. Helps numb the thoughts of money but it’s only temporary.
Keeps the thoughts lubricated
| 192 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:19:50pm |
re: #179 Conservative Moonbat
You don’t think the fact that we have no industrial base is a problem?
You don’t the fact that if we want to implement next generation nuclear power technology we’re going to have to pay the Japanese and Canadians to do it for us is a problem?
You don’t think the blight of Detroit is a problem? It used to be one of the great American cities and now they can’t pay people to live there.
Why would this be so? The inability for us to cheaply build consumer junk like IPods, T-Shirts, or unfortunately automobiles is not directly connected to infrastructure projects such as those.
As for the rest… problem? Not really assuming we can learn to live in the now and not pine for the industrial revolution. Turning back the clock to magically fix these “problems” is impossible and undesirable. We need to be forward looking.
| 193 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:23:15pm |
re: #190 Conservative Moonbat
As opposed to the Bush stimulus when they just gave everybody money? What was it $2000 a household? Paying people to do work is more productive than just giving them the money to spend directly. I don’t see how you can argue with that.
It doesn’t always come back to Bush, we can discuss what we need now without that straw.
As to the utility of wind power, I guess that all depends on your stance on AGW and the necessity of stopping it. If you believe in AGW, subsidizing wind farms in order to put coal out of business is a necessary evil.
Nope, even Ludwig will acknowledge that wind is not ready for deployment. Ones stance on AGW is irrelevant.
I’d personally rather see the money invested in next generation nuclear technology but that’s not going to happen without subsidies either.
Subsidies are not at all needed, rather, legislation that streamlined the process and then put it all up for private industry. Works great.
On the other hand, building windmills keeps more of the money in the domestic economy. The reactors Westinghouse can build are still based on 1960s technology because there has been no serious money invested in nuclear research here since three mile island (which had zero casualties).
Building windmills is chasing unicorns. The Government “creating jobs” is more harm than good.
| 194 |
Velvet Elvis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:23:19pm |
re: #192 ArchangelMichael
Why would this be so? The inability for us to cheaply build consumer junk like IPods, T-Shirts, or unfortunately automobiles is not directly connected to infrastructure projects such as those.
As for the rest… problem? Not really assuming we can learn to live in the now and not pine for the industrial revolution. Turning back the clock to magically fix these “problems” is impossible and undesirable. We need to be forward looking.
We’ve invested almost zero money in researching nuclear technology since Three Mile Island. The one next generation test reactor was shut down during the Clinton administration.
We no longer have the ability to produce a reactor vessel. Any such thing will have to be imported from Japan, even with Westinghouse reactors. We lack the ability to produce one. If you want cites, ask me in the morning.
| 195 |
Gus Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:23:35pm |
re: #187 Bagua
The U.S. economy is the worlds largest, our GDP in the top ten, the leader in science, medicine, technology, and foreign investments.
Yet if the government doesn’t step in and start an industry building windmills we are doomed. Heresy I say.
I don’t know who manufactures wind turbines. Anything realistic or profitable to that end would be the infrastructure. Unless of course there were start-up companies that could make these turbines but they would still have to be competitive.
When I said build I meant commercial and residential construction. Institutional construction as well but that a limited market. In other words to start seeing growth once again that has been dead in the water for over a year now.
| 196 |
Gus Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:25:04pm |
re: #194 Conservative Moonbat
We’ve invested almost zero money in researching nuclear technology since Three Mile Island. The one next generation test reactor was shut down during the Clinton administration.
We no longer have the ability to produce a reactor vessel. Any such thing will have to be imported from Japan, even with Westinghouse reactors. We lack the ability to produce one. If you want cites, ask me in the morning.
My uncle was a nuclear engineer for Westinghouse. Long since retired.
| 197 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:25:10pm |
re: #195 Gus 802
The point isn’t who manufacturers wind turbines, it is that they are inefficient and almost useless at this point in their development.
| 198 |
cenotaphium Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:25:51pm |
re: #192 ArchangelMichael
The inability for us to cheaply build consumer junk like IPods, T-Shirts, or unfortunately automobiles is not directly connected to infrastructure projects such as those.
This bugs me about the “we need to make things” mentality - if you can design something and use a cheap outside labour force creating a product that you then sell for a nice mark-up, how have you not generated more local money than you would trying to build the things locally?
You’ve made a more affordable product with a potentially higher profitability that stays within the country, right? The small portion of money that does go abroad is of course very beneficial to the country that recieves it, but usually because the standards are so low that what’s a pittence here can be a real salary over there.
Can someone explain where I’m going wrong with this?
| 199 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:26:15pm |
re: #194 Conservative Moonbat
We’ve invested almost zero money in researching nuclear technology since Three Mile Island. The one next generation test reactor was shut down during the Clinton administration.
We no longer have the ability to produce a reactor vessel. Any such thing will have to be imported from Japan, even with Westinghouse reactors. We lack the ability to produce one. If you want cites, ask me in the morning.
The destruction of our nuclear industry is a massive scandal, we could correct this, but all we can consider is chasing unicorns like Windmills and Solar.
| 200 |
Gus Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:26:53pm |
re: #197 Bagua
The point isn’t who manufacturers wind turbines, it is that they are inefficient and almost useless at this point in their development.
Right. You need, a lot of consistent prevailing winds. Therefore it will only be sufficient within certain regions. So it wouldn’t be something that could be “nationwide.” It’s a limited market. There’s still opportunity but it’s not that large.
| 201 |
Timmeh Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:28:29pm |
re: #174 ArchangelMichaelWorking in factories is a non starter. We can never compete against developing nations in terms of costs. We need more engineers and scientists. Full stop. Not more factory workers. Not more farm workers. Not more McDonalds employees. Not more lawyers. Definitely not anymore touchy-feely social sciences workers either.
Real Engineers and Scientists. The “product” of American labor should be intellectual property, not “widgets”.
I agree that America needs as many “Real Engineers and Scientists” as we can get, but I don’t think that everyone is Real Engineer and Scientist material. We’re going to need something for people who can’t be successful scientists, engineers, novelists, management consultants, lawyers, doctors, musicians or other high-level creative people. I suspect that services are the answer, but I suspect that there are going to be more and more people who have trouble finding an economic role in the modern world.
| 202 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:29:11pm |
re: #194 Conservative Moonbat
We’ve invested almost zero money in researching nuclear technology since Three Mile Island. The one next generation test reactor was shut down during the Clinton administration.
We no longer have the ability to produce a reactor vessel. Any such thing will have to be imported from Japan, even with Westinghouse reactors. We lack the ability to produce one. If you want cites, ask me in the morning.
I never said that this is a good thing or an necessary evil. Putting money into research is exactly the kind of thing both government and private industry should be doing. When I say “building things” I’m talking about things we cant build here because we can never be competitive. Researching, designing, and building next-generation nuclear power plants is not even in the same ballpark as building cars or consumer electronics bullshit.
I said the product of American labor should be intellectual property, in other words, the products of scientists and engineers, not “unskilled labor”.
| 203 |
Velvet Elvis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:29:47pm |
re: #196 Gus 802
My uncle was a nuclear engineer for Westinghouse. Long since retired.
My mother’s family is from Oak Ridge so I’ve heard all kinds of nuclear horror stories and the people who live there seem to get by just fine.
After 9/11 they put up new radiation detectors at the roads going in and out of town to make sure nobody was trying to sneak out with any nuclear material. The only problem was that frogs were swimming in one of the coolant ponds for one of the test reactors and getting hot. The frogs were the jumping out onto the road and getting squished, making everyone’s tires slightly radioactive. This resulted in so many false positives that the whole system was useless.
| 204 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:29:48pm |
re: #200 Gus 802
Not just prevailing wind, but storage capacity or you destabilise the grid, massive transmission loss, the need for a full backup from another generator source, the cost of manufacture, maintenance, land use, their eventual scrapping, etc. etc, in the final analysis they don’t even reduce CO2 emissions.
| 205 |
Gus Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:29:56pm |
Out of interest…
Large Wind Turbine Manufacturers in the United States by State
I was never an electronics guy.
| 207 |
Gus Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:35:30pm |
re: #203 Conservative Moonbat
My mother’s family is from Oak Ridge so I’ve heard all kinds of nuclear horror stories and the people who live there seem to get by just fine.
After 9/11 they put up new radiation detectors at the roads going in and out of town to make sure nobody was trying to sneak out with any nuclear material. The only problem was that frogs were swimming in one of the coolant ponds for one of the test reactors and getting hot. The frogs were the jumping out onto the road and getting squished, making everyone’s tires slightly radioactive. This resulted in so many false positives that the whole system was useless.
For many years I lived nearby a rather large nuclear power facility. Oyster Creek in South Jersey. Never really gave it a second thought. In fact it was near a very popular partying spot that we would sometimes frequent. Worst in the region was the infamous Toms River Chemical which is north of there. Never had a problem with Oyster Creek. TRC however was in the news for cancer and contamination events. I drank water from a location upstream to all of these locations. Just once but sometimes I wonder. Oh, and the local pissing stop was an old Bomarc facility many miles inland towards McGuire AFB. They had a fire once. I’m surprised I don’t glow in the dark.
| 208 |
Jack Burton Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:37:54pm |
re: #198 cenotaphium
This bugs me about the “we need to make things” mentality - if you can design something and use a cheap outside labour force creating a product that you then sell for a nice mark-up, how have you not generated more local money than you would trying to build the things locally?
You’ve made a more affordable product with a potentially higher profitability that stays within the country, right? The small portion of money that does go abroad is of course very beneficial to the country that recieves it, but usually because the standards are so low that what’s a pittence here can be a real salary over there.Can someone explain where I’m going wrong with this?
Apple is a American company. Electrical Engineers and Computer Scientists design their products here, and unskilled laborers in Asia build them. Money goes to both.
Or they could hire American union laborers to do the job, pay them 6 times as much, get less productivity out of the labor force, and then have to sell the product for substantially more to make a profit. Meanwhile someone looking for a job in China or Taiwan goes hungry.
I prefer option 1 over option 2.
| 209 |
Velvet Elvis Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:38:19pm |
re: #207 Gus 802
For many years I lived nearby a rather large nuclear power facility. Oyster Creek in South Jersey. Never really gave it a second thought. In fact it was near a very popular partying spot that we would sometimes frequent. Worst in the region was the infamous Toms River Chemical which is north of there. Never had a problem with Oyster Creek. TRC however was in the news for cancer and contamination events. I drank water from a location upstream to all of these locations. Just once but sometimes I wonder. Oh, and the local pissing stop was an old Bomarc facility many miles inland towards McGuire AFB. They had a fire once. I’m surprised I don’t glow in the dark.
My gf’s grandad was at Los Alamos playing with radioactive isotopes during the Manhatten project years. Between my family’s Oak Ridge experience and her family’s Los Alimos experience I’m pretty sure we’re going to give birth to the X-Men.
| 210 |
Gus Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:44:40pm |
re: #209 Conservative Moonbat
My gf’s grandad was at Los Alamos playing with radioactive isotopes during the Manhatten project years. Between my family’s Oak Ridge experience and her family’s Los Alimos experience I’m pretty sure we’re going to give birth to the X-Men.
My dad once brought home a rather large mercury switch from work. Of course, my brother and me had to take it apart and proceeded to play with the mercury. None of us gave it any thought. Then there was the solvents and model airplanes and rockets involving butyrate dope, thinners, aerosols, etc. Oh, and of course there was the good old soldering gun and lead solder. Only radiation I can think of is from getting all “bubbled up” from sun burn one time.
I should attach some wires from my body to a light bulb some day and see if it lights up.
/
| 211 |
Bagua Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:47:21pm |
re: #210 Gus 802
I knew there was something funny about you Gus but I couldn’t put my finger on it.
| 212 |
Gus Mon, Oct 12, 2009 11:50:01pm |
re: #211 Bagua
I knew there was something funny about you Gus but I couldn’t put my finger on it.
It’s the eerie music emanating from the mercury fillings in my mouth.
It plays the Outer Limits theme.
/
| 213 |
Leonidas Hoplite Tue, Oct 13, 2009 4:40:11am |
Well I’m sorry I missed this thread. I’m a big Porcupine Tree fan and am impressed/surprised/happy that Charles endorsed their new album!
Charles did you happen to catch them on their recent tour? I saw the show in NYC and it was excellent.
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