Why Creationists Seek to Influence Texas Schoolbook Purchases

Science • Views: 4,221

Here’s an excellent article at Washington Monthly by Mariah Blake, showing how the atavistic GOP creationist agenda has a direct and highly deleterious effect on education in the United States: Revisionaries.

Don McLeroy is a balding, paunchy man with a thick broom-handle mustache who lives in a rambling two-story brick home in a suburb near Bryan, Texas. When he greeted me at the door one evening last October, he was clutching a thin paperback with the skeleton of a seahorse on its cover, a primer on natural selection penned by famed evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr. We sat down at his dining table, which was piled high with three-ring binders, and his wife, Nancy, brought us ice water in cut-crystal glasses with matching coasters. Then McLeroy cracked the book open. The margins were littered with stars, exclamation points, and hundreds of yellow Post-its that were brimming with notes scrawled in a microscopic hand. With childlike glee, McLeroy flipped through the pages and explained what he saw as the gaping holes in Darwin’s theory. “I don’t care what the educational political lobby and their allies on the left say,” he declared at one point. “Evolution is hooey.” This bled into a rant about American history. “The secular humanists may argue that we are a secular nation,” McLeroy said, jabbing his finger in the air for emphasis. “But we are a Christian nation founded on Christian principles. The way I evaluate history textbooks is first I see how they cover Christianity and Israel. Then I see how they treat Ronald Reagan—he needs to get credit for saving the world from communism and for the good economy over the last twenty years because he lowered taxes.”

Views like these are relatively common in East Texas, a region that prides itself on being the buckle of the Bible Belt. But McLeroy is no ordinary citizen. The jovial creationist sits on the Texas State Board of Education, where he is one of the leaders of an activist bloc that holds enormous sway over the body’s decisions. As the state goes through the once-in-a-decade process of rewriting the standards for its textbooks, the faction is using its clout to infuse them with ultraconservative ideals. Among other things, they aim to rehabilitate Joseph McCarthy, bring global-warming denial into science class, and downplay the contributions of the civil rights movement.

Battles over textbooks are nothing new, especially in Texas, where bitter skirmishes regularly erupt over everything from sex education to phonics and new math. But never before has the board’s right wing wielded so much power over the writing of the state’s standards. And when it comes to textbooks, what happens in Texas rarely stays in Texas. The reasons for this are economic: Texas is the nation’s second-largest textbook market and one of the few biggies where the state picks what books schools can buy rather than leaving it up to the whims of local districts, which means publishers that get their books approved can count on millions of dollars in sales. As a result, the Lone Star State has outsized influence over the reading material used in classrooms nationwide, since publishers craft their standard textbooks based on the specs of the biggest buyers. As one senior industry executive told me, “Publishers will do whatever it takes to get on the Texas list.”

I’ve been pounding on exactly this issue at LGF for quite a while, pointing out that the textbook choices made by Texas have an outsized effect on the entire country. This is why creationists are so determined to promote their Dark Ages nonsense there — because it gives them a chance to spread their craziness over the whole United States.

Previous LGF posts about the agenda of Don McLeroy and the Texas creationist mafia.

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140 comments
1 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:17:37pm

Heh. Secular humanists.

2 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:20:09pm

Does anyone else find the depiction of all those post-its, and binders creepy? It reminds me of the behavior of some of the less balanced conspiracy nuts.

3 freetoken  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:20:42pm

Given the ever increasing costs of textbooks, which seem to be in a race to be one of the most affected aspects of education-inflation, perhaps it is time to re-examine the roll of "textbooks" in the education process?

I am all in favor of emphasizing reading, especially in the first 9 years of school, yet there is little need for a "textbook" if every student has access to an electronic reading device (e.g., computer.)

Perhaps school boards will soon realize that they can save quite a few dollars in not buying new textbooks every year. Indeed, some school districts seem to be well on that path now.

Of course, what to do then if a teacher instructs their students to go to the Answers In Genesis website?

4 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:21:18pm

The other day I sent two (one mild, one strongly worded) e-mails to the Executive Editor of the local newspaper, urging them to take an editorial stand against the creationism efforts in Louisiana.

I posted about the first response, but I did get a 2nd response, in which he told me the paper has written against this effort.

I subscribe to the paper and get it every day, and read it every day, and I have not noticed any sort of particularly strong stand by them on this issue over the past year or so.

He said he would check into the latest developments - I'll be looking for a story in the near future, but I'll admit I'll be surprised if they do anything.

5 Randall Gross  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:22:05pm

Notice how these luddite Ultracons always want to use antique kiddie books instead of current ones to try to "disprove evolution"?

6 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:23:43pm

re: #3 freetoken

Given the ever increasing costs of textbooks, which seem to be in a race to be one of the most affected aspects of education-inflation, perhaps it is time to re-examine the roll of "textbooks" in the education process?

I am all in favor of emphasizing reading, especially in the first 9 years of school, yet there is little need for a "textbook" if every student has access to an electronic reading device (e.g., computer.)

Perhaps school boards will soon realize that they can save quite a few dollars in not buying new textbooks every year. Indeed, some school districts seem to be well on that path now.

Of course, what to do then if a teacher instructs their students to go to the Answers In Genesis website?

Simple, suspend the teacher for insubordination and make it clear if they do it again they'll be fired.

7 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:26:21pm

David Barton has recently been endorsing a gubernatorial candidate in Iowa

David Barton endorses Vander Plaats

David Barton, a nationally recognized social conservative, has endorsed Bob Vander Plaats for Iowa governor, the Sioux City Republican’s campaign has announced.

Barton is a Texas-based public speaker and author who focuses on constitutional issues. He was hired by President George W. Bush’s 2004 re-election campaign as a consultant for outreach with evangelical groups and was named in 2005 by Time Magazine one of the nation’s 25 most influential social conservatives.

Some Iowans may remember Barton headlined the Iowa Christian Alliance’s annual fall banquet in 2007 and this year.

8 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:26:46pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

Does anyone else find the depiction of all those post-its, and binders creepy? It reminds me of the behavior of some of the less balanced conspiracy nuts.

It reminds me of research.

9 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:28:19pm

re: #8 rwdflynavy

It reminds me of research.

We can disagree with his position, but the man is at least trying to research the books. Can't really argue with that.

10 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:29:22pm

re: #9 rwdflynavy

We can disagree with his position, but the man is at least trying to research the books. Can't really argue with that.

I'm not sure how objective his research can be. It's more like he is on a "mission".

11 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:30:05pm
“The secular humanists may argue that we are a secular nation,” McLeroy said, jabbing his finger in the air for emphasis. “But we are a Christian nation founded on Christian principles.

I've seen this sort of statement a million times, yet it's monumental level of igonarnce never ceases to astound me. Even my sometimes kooky, "End Times, All The Time" relative recognizes that the U.S. was founded as a secular nation, and is grateful for the religious freedom that such has afforded her.

12 freetoken  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:30:43pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

Simple, suspend the teacher for insubordination and make it clear if they do it again they'll be fired.

Ok, so now let's take it to the next step.

Say in the near future we are in a no-dead-tree school class, say a jr. high biology class, and the subject of the day is evolution. After the class, the teacher assigns homework for each student to go on the internet and find 5 websites that have something to do with Darwin.

So next day, smiling Jane comes in to class and when asked, pulls out a link to AiG, saying her parents recommended it to her. What is the teach to do?

1) tell her that the material in AiG is a fantasy and literal creationism is blatantly false, and give her an F on the assignment;
2) tell her that the material at AiG is misleading and not the best of sources, and give her a C;
3) smile at her and say "that's nice" and move on as quickly as possible.

Because, if the recent case in Southern California is any indication, if the teacher takes track #1 then that teacher will be in trouble, even though the response in #1 is indeed the best and most accurate.

13 jaunte  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:31:01pm

More from the article:

The Texas legislature finally intervened in 1995, after a particularly heated skirmish over health textbooks—among other things, the board demanded that publishers pull illustrations of techniques for breast self-examination and swap a photo of a briefcase-toting woman for one of a mother baking a cake.


This shows where they would like to keep half the population. Cake!

14 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:31:01pm

re: #11 Slumbering Behemoth

I've seen this sort of statement a million times, yet it's monumental level of igonarnce never ceases to astound me. Even my sometimes kooky, "End Times, All The Time" relative recognizes that the U.S. was founded as a secular nation, and is grateful for the religious freedom that such has afforded her.

I think people get the Founders confused with the Pilgrams.

15 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:31:37pm

re: #9 rwdflynavy

We can disagree with his position, but the man is at least trying to research the books. Can't really argue with that.

You have got to be kidding.

Don McLeroy is one of the most hardcore creationists I've ever seen. He's not trying to "research" anything -- he's looking for anything he can use to promote the creationist agenda, no matter how distorted or dishonest.

16 prairiefire  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:31:39pm

We've been through this charade once already in Kansas. Probably will again.

17 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:31:49pm

re: #8 rwdflynavy

It reminds me of research.

Fair enough. It just struck me as odd, but its seems I'm wrong. Not the first time that's happened. Comment #2 is hereby retracted.

18 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:33:08pm

re: #10 ggt

Some folks pick cherries from orchards, others pick them from literature.

I prefer to eat the ones picked from orchards.

19 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:33:27pm

re: #12 freetoken

Ok, so now let's take it to the next step.

Say in the near future we are in a no-dead-tree school class, say a jr. high biology class, and the subject of the day is evolution. After the class, the teacher assigns homework for each student to go on the internet and find 5 websites that have something to do with Darwin.

So next day, smiling Jane comes in to class and when asked, pulls out a link to AiG, saying her parents recommended it to her. What is the teach to do?

1) tell her that the material in AiG is a fantasy and literal creationism is blatantly false, and give her an F on the assignment;
2) tell her that the material at AiG is misleading and not the best of sources, and give her a C;
3) smile at her and say "that's nice" and move on as quickly as possible.

Because, if the recent case in Southern California is any indication, if the teacher takes track #1 then that teacher will be in trouble, even though the response in #1 is indeed the best and most accurate.

i myself would go with #2, simply to avoid a hassle. What happened in California?

20 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:35:04pm

re: #13 jaunte

Hey dude. Excellent work on that illustration of Beck for the Fiskie. You got mad skills, bro. Makes me kinda jealous.

21 freetoken  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:35:10pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

What happened in California?

A teacher told a student that creationism was a silly idea. Said teacher was chastised by the school and taken to court by the family (egged on and supported by the creationist lobby.)

22 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:35:14pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

i myself would go with #2, simply to avoid a hassle. What happened in California?

4) Challenge her to think thru the info on the AiG website. Perhaps ask her to answer specific questions and offer extra credit for her to do so. (meaning use the Socratic Method to help her think for herself).

23 Randall Gross  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:35:45pm

re: #9 rwdflynavy

We can disagree with his position, but the man is at least trying to research the books. Can't really argue with that.

That's a ridiculous statement. His digging back to old Ernst Mayr books proves that he's not interested in the least in current science, and that he probably hasn't read anything new and scientific about evolution in years.

24 rwdflynavy  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:35:57pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

i myself would go with #2, simply to avoid a hassle. What happened in California?

I agree, 1 would be stupid, you told her to find 5 websites dealing with Darwin.

25 jaunte  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:36:32pm

re: #20 Slumbering Behemoth

Thanks!

26 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:36:45pm
27 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:37:05pm

You should try finding high school-level textbooks for homeschoolers. I wanted to step my son up a level (Yes, he's technically middle-school, but we have those and he's read them.)

I automatically veto any science textbook with God in the title. I ended up going to the major textbook publisher, and buying a used version of their chemistry textbook for him to start chewing on. There was nothing at the high school level on the homeschooling site I would have trusted.

28 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:37:08pm

re: #13 jaunte

More from the article:


This shows where they would like to keep half the population. Cake!

I wonder if they included a picture of testicle-self examination?

29 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:37:24pm

re: #21 freetoken

A teacher told a student that creationism was a silly idea. Said teacher was chastised by the school and taken to court by the family (egged on and supported by the creationist lobby.)

That would definitely motivate me to choose option #2. When faced with bowdlerizing the facts or catching a lawsuit, bowdlerize. It's a lot better than a lawsuit.

30 jaunte  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:37:50pm

re: #28 ggt

I was told they don't have that in baseball.

31 Jaerik  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:38:14pm

re: #14 ggt

I think people get the Founders confused with the Pilgrams.

Pilgrims, but yes. You'd be surprised how many people think George Washington came over on the Mayflower.

32 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:38:50pm

re: #13 jaunte

More from the article:


This shows where they would like to keep half the population. Cake!


There's nothing wrong with cake.

I have a cousin trying to figure out what path she should take to open her own bakery. She's going to go to college in busines, but also take a course in baking at one of the local cooking schools.

33 jaunte  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:39:18pm

re: #32 Emmmieg

She'll probably need a briefcase too.

34 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:39:33pm

re: #31 Jaerik

Pilgrims, but yes. You'd be surprised how many people think George Washington came over on the Mayflower.

No, I wouldn't after the blank stares I got from my coworkers after I mentioned D-Day in connection with a product launch on the 6th of June.

35 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:39:56pm

re: #12 freetoken

Ok, so now let's take it to the next step.

Say in the near future we are in a no-dead-tree school class, say a jr. high biology class, and the subject of the day is evolution. After the class, the teacher assigns homework for each student to go on the internet and find 5 websites that have something to do with Darwin.

So next day, smiling Jane comes in to class and when asked, pulls out a link to AiG, saying her parents recommended it to her. What is the teach to do?

1) tell her that the material in AiG is a fantasy and literal creationism is blatantly false, and give her an F on the assignment;
2) tell her that the material at AiG is misleading and not the best of sources, and give her a C;
3) smile at her and say "that's nice" and move on as quickly as possible.

Because, if the recent case in Southern California is any indication, if the teacher takes track #1 then that teacher will be in trouble, even though the response in #1 is indeed the best and most accurate.

Why punish the student for the stupidity of the parents?!

One likely side-effect of No. 1 is that it will harden the parents AND the student in their beliefs that they are a persecuted group.

I'd go with a modification of No. 2 and let her raise that score to a B by bringing in non-AiG url's.

36 darthstar  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:40:09pm

"Evolution is hooey!"...and Don McElroy has yet to achieve hooeyness (i.e. evolve).

I saw this article the other day. Teh stoopid...it burns.

37 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:40:13pm

re: #14 ggt

And those early colonists weren't exactly as keen on "freedom of religion" as they have sometimes been made out to appear.

38 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:40:47pm

re: #33 jaunte

She'll probably need a briefcase too.

I was thinking a laptop and a business plan.

39 Jaerik  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:40:49pm

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

No, I wouldn't after the blank stares I got from my coworkers after I mentioned D-Day in connection with a product launch on the 6th of June.

That was when George Washington sailed across the Channel on a rowboat and killed Hitler, right?

40 freetoken  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:40:58pm

re: #22 ggt

Good idea, but there is a giant pitfall. A child in the home of creationists who are training their child to be a creationist is already significantly handicapped.

What you and D.F. are proposing is that a young teenager not be confronted with the truth, which IMO is the wrong approach.

Socratic methods have their place, but implied in the method is that the student is already mature enough to stand by themselves. Any student that has been and is undergoing indoctrination needs something a bit stronger and intense, IMO. Once a crisis in thought is arrived, then the Socratic method can help a person sort through paths to take intellectually.

When someone is learning to speak and later to read no one uses the Socratic method. It is by repetition that these basic skills are passed on. When it comes to basic mathematics and science I believe similar approaches yield the best results.

41 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:41:20pm

re: #37 Slumbering Behemoth

And those early colonists weren't exactly as keen on "freedom of religion" as they have sometimes been made out to appear.

Freedom for THEM from the evils of anything they didn't like.

42 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:41:55pm

re: #39 Jaerik

That was when George Washington sailed across the Channel on a rowboat and killed Hitler, right?

Nah, he just beaned him with the half-dollar he threw across.

43 jaunte  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:42:02pm

Coming up January 13 in Austin:

Texas SBOE Takes Up Social Studies Curriculum Standards
The State Board of Education is about to decide whether far-right politics trumps facts and sound scholarship in new social studies curriculum standards for Texas public schools. The state board will hold a public hearing on the proposed new standards on January 13 in Austin.
...
We reported in April that the creationist faction on the Texas State Board of Education was moving to pack a key “expert” review panel for the social studies curriculum revision with like-minded ideologues. (See here and here.) We now have the names of all the “expert” panelists. As with the science “expert” panel, it appears that the social studies panel will be evenly split between mainstream academics and ideologues aligned with the creationist faction.
[Link: www.tfn.org...]
44 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:43:06pm

re: #40 freetoken

Good idea, but there is a giant pitfall. A child in the home of creationists who are training their child to be a creationist is already significantly handicapped.

What you and D.F. are proposing is that a young teenager not be confronted with the truth, which IMO is the wrong approach.

Socratic methods have their place, but implied in the method is that the student is already mature enough to stand by themselves. Any student that has been and is undergoing indoctrination needs something a bit stronger and intense, IMO. Once a crisis in thought is arrived, then the Socratic method can help a person sort through paths to take intellectually.

When someone is learning to speak and later to read no one uses the Socratic method. It is by repetition that these basic skills are passed on. When it comes to basic mathematics and science I believe similar approaches yield the best results.

I guess I was thinking of a watered down version of the method as a teacher in a regular public school classroom really can't do much. But any questions that might get the student to "spark" might be the best the teacher can do.

45 JoyousMN  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:43:33pm

re: #19 Dark_Falcon

I think teaching kids _how_ to get information from the internet will be part of a teachers job. Actually my tense is wrong. It's happening now. My 5th grader had to find websites that were credible and not credible and explain why just last month.

Teaching kids how to sift through all the info now available to them will be a major part of the curriculum moving forward.

46 Summer Seale  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:43:36pm

Hi everyone! Sarah here....

Ya know, isn't it just great how awesome Americans are taking charge of schools this way? This is a great movement in America, and it just makes me so proud to be a Conservative American!

You know, lots of left-wing stuff gets taught to our kids at school today - really bad stuff that terrorists write from overseas like from Soviet Russiana or France. You know, stuff that doesn't really make any sense which is why we Americans don't come up with it!

And there's a reason for this: Scientists.

Now, I know to a lot of you in this audience, that is a dirty word, and I agree! After all, have you ever seen a scientist with a good hair cut? You betcha haven't! The fact is that they don't wash much at all, and they're trying to do the same to our kids: make them dirty.

You know, it's important to keep our kids clean because it's part of the great plan for God's America, which I fully support, and I know you do as well.

That's why I support changing the school books nationwide to reflect this stand against leftist science which really is Obama's kinda Marxism. And I should know! Remember, I can see Russia from my porch!

You know, that's why I also support home schooling for God's children - the children who pray to the right kinda God on the right side of the issue. Because, we all know how old the earth really is, don't we? We don't need to spend billions of dollars to try to find out the answer to a question we've had answered in our book since thousands of years!

The fact is that instead of pointing the big telescope "Bubble" thing in the sky outwards, they should point it on the Bible and read God's word real close.

Maybe then those scientists might get a clue!

Well, I'm going to keep asking these questions, because they're important questions! And I'm going to keep sticking up for people who are trying to take back science from the scientists!

See you all later?

You betcha!

47 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:43:57pm

re: #43 jaunte

Coming up January 13 in Austin:

So . . . it spreads out into other areas.

48 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:44:01pm

re: #35 MandyManners

Why punish the student for the stupidity of the parents?!

One likely side-effect of No. 1 is that it will harden the parents AND the student in their beliefs that they are a persecuted group.

I'd go with a modification of No. 2 and let her raise that score to a B by bringing in non-AiG url's.

Quite concur. Expose her to the truth while avoiding a major conflict. Good plan.

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:45:00pm

re: #12 freetoken

Ok, so now let's take it to the next step.

Say in the near future we are in a no-dead-tree school class, say a jr. high biology class, and the subject of the day is evolution. After the class, the teacher assigns homework for each student to go on the internet and find 5 websites that have something to do with Darwin.

So next day, smiling Jane comes in to class and when asked, pulls out a link to AiG, saying her parents recommended it to her. What is the teach to do?

1) tell her that the material in AiG is a fantasy and literal creationism is blatantly false, and give her an F on the assignment;
2) tell her that the material at AiG is misleading and not the best of sources, and give her a C;
3) smile at her and say "that's nice" and move on as quickly as possible.

Because, if the recent case in Southern California is any indication, if the teacher takes track #1 then that teacher will be in trouble, even though the response in #1 is indeed the best and most accurate.

Teaching students to use good resources on the Internet is one of the most incredibly complicated processes.

50 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:45:27pm

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

Quite concur. Expose her to the truth while avoiding a major conflict. Good plan.

The goal is not to punish the student but to let him expose himself to science.

51 Randall Gross  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:45:37pm

Update: I take back Antique, the book he's reading is just 9 years old, but as science advances so quickly today it might as well be antique now. When the article mentioned Mayr, I thought they were talking about his books from the 1940's.
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

It's a layman's book designed to explain evolution in relatively simple terms. Mayr is responsible for our understanding of genetic drift and the concept of peripatric speciation.

52 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:46:20pm

re: #46 Summer

Would you mind if I feature your Palin posts on the front page? You're so good at channeling the Sarah-thing that it's a little scary. But also insanely funny.

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:46:21pm

re: #24 rwdflynavy

I agree, 1 would be stupid, you told her to find 5 websites dealing with Darwin.

Bad assignment, BTW.

54 avanti  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:46:24pm

re: #21 freetoken

A teacher told a student that creationism was a silly idea. Said teacher was chastised by the school and taken to court by the family (egged on and supported by the creationist lobby.)

I think we have a two edged sword there. While the school has no business teaching religion, the teacher should not mock the kids beliefs either. A little tact would seem to be in order. This is from a agnostic Darwinist.

55 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:46:34pm

re: #50 MandyManners

The goal is not to punish the student but to let him expose himself to science.

I thought that critical thinking --asking questions, setting up premises, trying to prove them, etc. was SCIENCE.

Where did I go wrong?

/

56 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:47:15pm

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

Bad assignment, BTW.

You're a teacher so I'd like to know your thoughts on that method.

57 freetoken  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:47:21pm

re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist

Teaching students to use good resources on the Internet is one of the most incredibly complicated processes.

Yes! Which is of course one of the real weaknesses of so much of what we see on blogs and forums. So many people seem unable to sort the wheat from the chaff.

58 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:47:50pm

re: #40 freetoken

All I know is that if I were assigned to do a report on the history of space exploration, and I brought in a bunch of crap about Millennium Falcons, X-Wings, Death Stars, and friggin Ewoks, I would (and should) get a failing grade.

59 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:47:54pm

re: #37 Slumbering Behemoth

And those early colonists weren't exactly as keen on "freedom of religion" as they have sometimes been made out to appear.

What do you mean? They were very keen to have freedom of religion. It was just when other people wanted freedom of religion that they tended to get a little hysterical.

/

60 Sharmuta  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:47:58pm

re: #11 Slumbering Behemoth

I've seen this sort of statement a million times, yet it's monumental level of igonarnce never ceases to astound me. Even my sometimes kooky, "End Times, All The Time" relative recognizes that the U.S. was founded as a secular nation, and is grateful for the religious freedom that such has afforded her.

What's more, many of the Founders were men of science, and the Declaration and Constitution are Newtonian documents, not religiously inspired as creationist historians would have us believe, but rather they were shaped by the science of the day- Newton!

For example, take the DoI:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

In Revolutionary times, the term "Laws of Nature" with a plural on "Laws" always meant natural philosophy, or science. This is followed up by the next immortal line:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Now, the word "self-evident" is synonymous with "axiom" which is significant because 'Axiom' is what Newton labeled his 3 Laws of Motion (note it says redirected from Newton's Axioms).

That's just the start- Jefferson was a mathematician by training and he fully understood Newton's physics, unlike any other Founder. This is all on top of what we know of Jefferson's religious leanings- hardly a devout fundamentalist. These theo-cons have no basis for their claims- none- and the damage they could do to civics education should be worrisome to all Americans.

61 amused  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:48:40pm

I've lived in Austin for nearly 30 years. This has been going on the entire time I've been here. It's why I can *never* vote Republican, because that party pushes the anti-science agenda here non-stop. It would be okay if it remained an election ploy, which is what it was for many years. But now that they win elections so easily, I guess they forgot to turn it off when it come to making policy.

62 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:48:44pm

re: #55 ggt

I thought that critical thinking --asking questions, setting up premises, trying to prove them, etc. was SCIENCE.

Where did I go wrong?

/

Well, I could be wrong but, presenting evidence that the only sites you've visited (even if just to save the url) are against the scientific method somehow seems wrong to me.

63 freetoken  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:49:42pm

re: #54 avanti

I'm not proposing pummeling creationist students.

Yet, science students have to hear the words "wrong", "error", "false".

Unless you want to create some sort of new post-modern version of the scientific method... which I suppose is happening in some indirect way with all the mealiness that has crept into modern intelligentsia.

64 Summer Seale  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:50:18pm

re: #52 Charles

Would you mind if I feature your Palin posts on the front page? You're so good at channeling the Sarah-thing that it's a little scary. But also insanely funny.

I would be incredibly honored. =)

Wow, thank you. =)

65 Interesting Times  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:50:19pm

re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist

Teaching students to use good resources on the Internet is one of the most incredibly complicated processes.

No doubt. But if it can be done successfully, the long-term rewards - not just for the student, but society as a whole - are immeasurable. It's the future, after all - being in my 30s, I've just realized that mine is the last generation to grow up without the Internet (in the developed world, at least).

66 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:50:28pm
67 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:50:37pm

re: #62 MandyManners

Well, I could be wrong but, presenting evidence that the only sites you've visited (even if just to save the url) are against the scientific method somehow seems wrong to me.

I was referring to my idea of offering the girl extra credit to think thru some of the ideas presented on the AiG Website.

68 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:50:48pm

re: #5 Thanos

Obviously they're looking for reading material that's meshes with their mental skill level.

(Too mean?)

69 Scriptorium  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:51:05pm

Good start on an underclass. Or... increasing momentum towards an underclass since work on this science-crippling project began quite some time ago.

But wait--haven't we witnessed in the last 50 years countries that penalized and punished their scientific and professional elite? Nah, those were only commie countries. Nothing to worry about here.

/

70 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:51:11pm

re: #63 freetoken

Could you address my No. 35?

71 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:52:11pm

re: #67 ggt

I was referring to my idea of offering the girl extra credit to think thru some of the ideas presented on the AiG Website.

Oops.

That might be beyond the scope of the class as well as the limits to the knowledge of a kid that age.

72 Randall Gross  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:52:39pm

re: #68 jamesfirecat

Obviously they're looking for reading material that's meshes with their mental skill level.

(Too mean?)

No that's honest and factual. They always take on popular press layman books and quote mine instead of taking on science papers about evolution that actually have mechanisms built into the submission process specifically for criticism.

73 darthstar  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:52:56pm

re: #64 Summer

I would be incredibly honored. =)

Wow, thank you. =)

I believe the appropriate response is "You betcha! and also."

74 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:53:02pm

re: #9 rwdflynavy

We can disagree with his position, but the man is at least trying to research the books. Can't really argue with that.

He's not researching, he's quote-mining.

75 avanti  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:54:37pm

re: #63 freetoken

I'm not proposing pummeling creationist students.

Yet, science students have to hear the words "wrong", "error", "false".

Unless you want to create some sort of new post-modern version of the scientific method... which I suppose is happening in some indirect way with all the mealiness that has crept into modern intelligentsia.

OK, kid says dad tells me the earth is 6000 years old to the teacher. The teacher can say I respect your dads faith, but in school we look at what the scientific method teaches us, but you are free to make up your own mind. You do not tell the kid she or her parents are "silly".

76 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:54:44pm

re: #56 MandyManners

You're a teacher so I'd like to know your thoughts on that method.

I don't know all the details, but I would give them a more specific assignment with research objectives--and honestly, with such a potentially explosive subject, I might direct them to specific websites. Let them do independent research on something else.

I've dealt with kids with deep anti-science religious beliefs, just briefly, and it's pretty damn hard to deal with. We didn't get as far as Darwin--I did a lecture on Galileo, and we were already at loggerheads. The magic bad word is 'science'.

One of the truly nice things about working at a Catholic school is that this doesn't come up. Ironically enough, given Galileo's troubles with the Church.

77 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:54:44pm

re: #52 Charles

Would you mind if I feature your Palin posts on the front page? You're so good at channeling the Sarah-thing that it's a little scary. But also insanely funny.

It's a trap. That is Sarah, and she's trying to hijack the site.

78 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:54:48pm

re: #71 MandyManners

Oops.

That might be beyond the scope of the class as well as the limits to the knowledge of a kid that age.

I have a hard time with all this in general. Probably because I was raised in an above-average brain power family and have been surrounded most of my life with like people.

I have a hard time abstracting to a level where "bullshit could be roses, maybe, I dunno".

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:55:57pm

re: #57 freetoken

Yes! Which is of course one of the real weaknesses of so much of what we see on blogs and forums. So many people seem unable to sort the wheat from the chaff.

One of my students last year said that her teacher showed the class why Wikipedia was a bad site to use for research by logging in with her Wikipedia account and changing the octopus article to say that an octopus had seven legs.

Not a bad strategy.

80 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:56:10pm

re: #35 MandyManners

Why punish the student for the stupidity of the parents?!

One likely side-effect of No. 1 is that it will harden the parents AND the student in their beliefs that they are a persecuted group.

I'd go with a modification of No. 2 and let her raise that score to a B by bringing in non-AiG url's.

What, and no attempt to "teach" by explaining why such sources are suspect? Seems more like a formula for playing PC politics rather than achieving anything concrete in education.

81 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:56:14pm

re: #76 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know all the details, but I would give them a more specific assignment with research objectives--and honestly, with such a potentially explosive subject, I might direct them to specific websites. Let them do independent research on something else.

I've dealt with kids with deep anti-science religious beliefs, just briefly, and it's pretty damn hard to deal with. We didn't get as far as Darwin--I did a lecture on Galileo, and we were already at loggerheads. The magic bad word is 'science'.

One of the truly nice things about working at a Catholic school is that this doesn't come up. Ironically enough, given Galileo's troubles with the Church.

At loggerheads over Galileo?

*fanning self*

I hope they're okay with Newton.

82 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:56:30pm

re: #57 freetoken

More like find the diamonds among the coal given that there's a lot of bad material out here on the internet..

83 doubter4444  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:57:19pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

Does anyone else find the depiction of all those post-its, and binders creepy? It reminds me of the behavior of some of the less balanced conspiracy nuts.

You are right, it sounds very "It puts the lotion on it it's body" kind of thing, to me.

84 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:57:46pm

re: #61 amused

Wow it says something about a party when you're wishing that they would be more hypocritical....

85 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:58:04pm

Let's see... a nation of relatively wealthy consumers who are woefully ignorant, inadequately educated, and who have demonstrated over and over that they will buy any dumb-ass thing imaginable in vast quantities; vs. a generation of technically skilled and relatively well-educated common folks in a couple of places so impoverished that you can live like a king on $200 / week.

That's a plutocrat's wet dream, and it looks like we're living it.

Meanwhile, articles will continue to be written marveling at how those darn Indian and Chinese kids incomprehensibly keep out-performing our red-blooded American Kids in the fields of science and math.

86 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:58:11pm

re: #75 avanti

OK, kid says dad tells me the earth is 6000 years old to the teacher. The teacher can say I respect your dads faith, but in school we look at what the scientific method teaches us, but you are free to make up your own mind. You do not tell the kid she or her parents are "silly".

Perhaps you don't use that word, but assuming the kid is smart enough to understand and you are not in violation of some blasphemy law, then how does the situation actually differ from "silly" in the final analysis?

87 doubter4444  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:58:11pm

re: #5 Thanos

Notice how these luddite Ultracons always want to use antique kiddie books instead of current ones to try to "disprove evolution"?

I like "Ultracon".
Good term.

88 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:58:21pm

re: #78 ggt

I have a hard time with all this in general. Probably because I was raised in an above-average brain power family and have been surrounded most of my life with like people.

I have a hard time abstracting to a level where "bullshit could be roses, maybe, I dunno".

Bullshit leads to roses.

89 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:58:22pm

re: #80 Naso Tang

What, and no attempt to "teach" by explaining why such sources are suspect? Seems more like a formula for playing PC politics rather than achieving anything concrete in education.

Teachers are so limited, IMHO. How much time does said teacher really have to explore this with the students in a PC, age-appropriate and educational manner. If she doesn't have a lesson plan for it ready-to-go, what choices does she/he really have. Another few days and they are off onto another area and testing is coming in another week or two . . .

90 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:59:20pm

re: #80 Naso Tang

What, and no attempt to "teach" by explaining why such sources are suspect? Seems more like a formula for playing PC politics rather than achieving anything concrete in education.

Now, please show me where I denied the chance to teach!

My focus was on not punishing the student.

91 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:59:39pm

re: #88 MandyManners

Bullshit leads to roses.

oh STOP!
;)

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 6:59:56pm

re: #81 MandyManners

At loggerheads over Galileo?

*fanning self*

I hope they're okay with Newton.

This was a very, very academically low group, from a very rough neighborhood. They didn't give a damn about academics, but they knew that scientists are those people who want you to believe in science, and not God, and that we used to be monkeys. Total shutdown.

I wasn't prepared.

93 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:00:12pm

re: #89 ggt

Teachers are so limited, IMHO. How much time does said teacher really have to explore this with the students in a PC, age-appropriate and educational manner. If she doesn't have a lesson plan for it ready-to-go, what choices does she/he really have. Another few days and they are off onto another area and testing is coming in another week or two . . .

Excuses may sometimes be valid, but they nevertheless amount to just excuses in the end.

94 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:00:31pm
95 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:00:52pm

re: #83 doubter4444

I think its "It puts the lotion on the skin" actually...

Its put the lotion on the skin, or else it gets the hose again....


The rhyme makes it easy to remember and I've never even seen the movie....

96 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:01:14pm

re: #76 SanFranciscoZionist

(snip)

One of the truly nice things about working at a Catholic school is that this doesn't come up. Ironically enough, given Galileo's troubles with the Church.

Have you read Koestler's "The Sleepwalkers"? He explains GG's troubles as an accidental intrusion into a struggle between the Dominicans and the current Pope. IIRC, he was having dinners with the Pope while under ecclesiastical house arrest.

97 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:01:18pm

re: #90 MandyManners

Now, please show me where I denied the chance to teach!

My focus was on not punishing the student.

OK that's fine, but you did it without teaching anything of value, except perhaps avoid the avoidable.

98 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:01:47pm

re: #91 ggt

oh STOP!
;)

8-)

99 freetoken  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:01:52pm

re: #70 MandyManners

Could you address my No. 35?

I have no problem with it... but I'm not sure it addresses the heart of the matter.

Helping a student get better grades by assigning follow up homework is all well and good, but again, the issue that a student coming from a creationist household will confront is that the modern world, where science is a hallmark of "modernism", rejects the beliefs of her creationist parents.

Said student needs to know why. The also need to learn that the scientific method leads to the rejection of erroneous ideas, such as literal creationism.

Now, whatever method works... that probably is best determined on a student-by-student basis. Everyone learns differently, and each student ideally would have a approach geared best for them.

100 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:02:11pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

This was a very, very academically low group, from a very rough neighborhood. They didn't give a damn about academics, but they knew that scientists are those people who want you to believe in science, and not God, and that we used to be monkeys. Total shutdown.

I wasn't prepared.

I cannot comprehend that level of ignorance.

101 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:02:18pm

re: #93 Naso Tang

Excuses may sometimes be valid, but they nevertheless amount to just excuses in the end.

What excuses? Teachers are on schedules-determined by higher powers.

102 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:02:34pm

re: #95 jamesfirecat

I think its "It puts the lotion on the skin" actually...

Its put the lotion on the skin, or else it gets the hose again...

The rhyme makes it easy to remember and I've never even seen the movie...

See it. The Silence of the Lambs is well worth the time.

103 darthstar  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:02:58pm

re: #74 Alouette

He's not researching, he's quote-mining.

"quote mining"...I like that term. Thanks! That's exactly what these wingnuttards do....search for bits of text they can use to spin shit in their direction.

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:03:18pm

re: #96 Decatur Deb

Have you read Koestler's "The Sleepwalkers"? He explains GG's troubles as an accidental intrusion into a struggle between the Dominicans and the current Pope. IIRC, he was having dinners with the Pope while under ecclesiastical house arrest.

Sounds interesting. However, given that my students thought that Catholicism was a completely different religion from Christianity...

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:03:45pm

re: #100 MandyManners

I cannot comprehend that level of ignorance.

Neither could I. I was totally unprepared.

106 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:03:47pm

re: #101 ggt

What excuses? Teachers are on schedules-determined by higher powers.

Correct. They are judged on results, and those results are measured by test scores and grades, not by whether a student can think or not.

107 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:04:12pm

re: #95 jamesfirecat

I think its "It puts the lotion on the skin" actually...

Its put the lotion on the skin, or else it gets the hose again...

The rhyme makes it easy to remember and I've never even seen the movie...

Here is a nice Lego renditioned ditty to help you remember it better. NSFW.

If I remember correctly, the h/t goes to Fat Bastard for finding that one.

108 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:04:17pm
109 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:04:35pm

re: #101 ggt

What excuses? Teachers are on schedules-determined by higher powers.

Isn't that an excuse?

110 avanti  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:04:45pm

re: #86 Naso Tang

Perhaps you don't use that word, but assuming the kid is smart enough to understand and you are not in violation of some blasphemy law, then how does the situation actually differ from "silly" in the final analysis?

From a science prospective, it is silly, but as you seem to infer, the choice of words could be better. Even as I watch some atheists debate fundies, I cringe at the insulting, condescending comments while making valid points. I'm just for respecting faith, even if in your core, you may want to giggle at their rebuttal.

111 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:05:01pm

re: #104 SanFranciscoZionist

Sounds interesting. However, given that my students thought that Catholicism was a completely different religion from Christianity...

Nothing to be done then. A fundie like that is a lost cause. Leave them alone and help those you can help.

112 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:05:22pm

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

Correct. They are judged on results, and those results are measured by test scores and grades, not by whether a student can think or not.

So, is the excuse that the tests measure the wrong parameters?/

113 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:05:27pm

re: #97 Naso Tang

OK that's fine, but you did it without teaching anything of value, except perhaps avoid the avoidable.

How so? I've taught her to look elsewhere in her pursuit of knowledge than that which is available from her parents. And, I've done so without punishing her harshly.

114 Lidane  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:05:46pm

re: #61 amused

I've lived in Austin for nearly 30 years. This has been going on the entire time I've been here. It's why I can *never* vote Republican, because that party pushes the anti-science agenda here non-stop.

I've only been here in Austin since '98 (lived in Houston before that), but I'm the same way. Even if I was a conservative or Republican, I'd never vote for any of the ones that run for office in this state precisely because of this anti-science, anti-intellectual stuff. You're right-- they don't just peddle it out at election time to attract the far right socons. They do it year in, year out and this nonsense at the SBOE is proof.

It's so damned infuriating, and it hurts kids when they finally get to college, because their professors then have to pick up the slack and try to correct all the BS these kids are fed before they get there.

I will never, ever understand why these people are so afraid of science. Is their faith in God really that weak, or is it just a desire to bend everyone else to their ideological will, or is it some hellish combination of the two? I've tried to make sense of the whole socon mindset and keep coming up blank.

115 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:08:04pm

re: #99 freetoken

I have no problem with it... but I'm not sure it addresses the heart of the matter.

Helping a student get better grades by assigning follow up homework is all well and good, but again, the issue that a student coming from a creationist household will confront is that the modern world, where science is a hallmark of "modernism", rejects the beliefs of her creationist parents.

Said student needs to know why. The also need to learn that the scientific method leads to the rejection of erroneous ideas, such as literal creationism.

Now, whatever method works... that probably is best determined on a student-by-student basis. Everyone learns differently, and each student ideally would have a approach geared best for them.

I go back to my assertion that punishing him harshly likely will do little but ensure that he sticks closely to his parents on such matters.

Reach out to the kid. Give him a chance to show what he can do if given a second chance.

Hell-fire. We're able to give Micheal Vick a chance.

Why not a child in high school?!

116 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:08:36pm

re: #109 Naso Tang

Isn't that an excuse?

explanation = excuse?

Actually it was a question--I omitted the "?" in error.

117 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:08:59pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

Neither could I. I was totally unprepared.

It brings to mind images of the Third World.

118 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:10:40pm

Screw the horms. I wanna' see the majorettes.

119 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:11:59pm

My gosh. Those are not majorette uniforms. They are best suited to pool-side past-times.

120 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:12:31pm

re: #112 Naso Tang

So, is the excuse that the tests measure the wrong parameters?/

The test are fine. But the need to use them does constrain teachers. Sadly, there's nothing for it. It's the only way to run schools these days. And it does work if the material is properly structured and doesn't spoon-feed the kids the test questions, such spoon-feeding being depicted in season 4 of The Wire.

121 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:13:18pm

re: #110 avanti

From a science prospective, it is silly, but as you seem to infer, the choice of words could be better. Even as I watch some atheists debate fundies, I cringe at the insulting, condescending comments while making valid points. I'm just for respecting faith, even if in your core, you may want to giggle at their rebuttal.

No, I didn't mean from a science perspective, I meant (using prior post terminology) that there is no way to contradict a parent's "teachings on fantasy" without implying that they are "silly".

We can debate all day about how to conduct a debate about religion versus no religion, but in the end there is no way either party can avoid saying the other's perspective is wrong, period.

122 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:15:22pm

I'm off to the land of laundry and science fiction, again.

Have a great evening all!

123 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:16:31pm

re: #122 ggt

I'm off to the land of laundry and science fiction, again.

Have a great evening all!

Those Bounce sheets need to be closely monitored, ggt. They are evil.

124 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:18:51pm

re: #113 MandyManners

How so? I've taught her to look elsewhere in her pursuit of knowledge than that which is available from her parents. And, I've done so without punishing her harshly.

I understand your perspective, and the approach is rational, given the circumstances; but it is still the Excuse for not Teaching why some data is wrong.

The compromise is supposedly that you taught her to "think" by supposedly looking into alternate information, but in this regard that sounds more like wishful thinking without backing evidence, particularly since the grade was given before the followup work was done. Kind of like an excuse.

125 doubter4444  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:21:12pm

re: #95 jamesfirecat

I think its "It puts the lotion on the skin" actually...

Its put the lotion on the skin, or else it gets the hose again...

The rhyme makes it easy to remember and I've never even seen the movie...

lol.
Rwdflnavy, I saw the comment that it's research, and that's fair, I guess, but when research stretches into obsession (as it can in many areas), it's still obsession, IMO. And he seems obsessed.

126 MandyManners  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:24:54pm

re: #124 Naso Tang

I understand your perspective, and the approach is rational, given the circumstances; but it is still the Excuse for not Teaching why some data is wrong.

The compromise is supposedly that you taught her to "think" by supposedly looking into alternate information, but in this regard that sounds more like wishful thinking without backing evidence, particularly since the grade was given before the followup work was done. Kind of like an excuse.

Well, considering the choices FreeToken gave,...

127 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:25:16pm

re: #76 SanFranciscoZionist

Sounds like you've run into a budding crop of Geocentrists, and here I thought they'd gone extinct....

128 doubter4444  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:25:21pm

re: #95 jamesfirecat

I think its "It puts the lotion on the skin" actually...

Its put the lotion on the skin, or else it gets the hose again...

The rhyme makes it easy to remember and I've never even seen the movie...

You are right.
Damn, I can never remember song lyrics (my daughter and wife roll their eyes when I try), and now I've lost my quoting ability.
I'm old.

129 Achilles Tang  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:28:05pm

re: #126 MandyManners

Well, considering the choices FreeToken gave,...

Right, blame it on Freetoken :=)

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:32:07pm

re: #127 jamesfirecat

Sounds like you've run into a budding crop of Geocentrists, and here I thought they'd gone extinct...

I never did totally figure out what that particular group thought about heliocentrism...

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:32:26pm

re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist

I never did totally figure out what that particular group thought about heliocentrism...

But if science was for it, they were agin it....

132 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 7:41:33pm

re: #100 MandyManners
Some of my boys are that ignorant and they are neither stupid nor in other ways uneducated. When we ask religious preference for their id tags, most of us NCOs wince. We can't help it. Soldier says he's Christian. I say, "Non-denominational?" He insists, he's just Christian. "Ok, but you can't put just Christian, CAtholic, Baptist, Methodist... " No, just Christian. "Soooo, you're non-denominational right?" No CHRISTIAN. (spoken slowly like I'm the reard.) Then there are the one's who insist we are atheists if we say we belive in God but are not Christian or Jewish. One even insisted I must be a Devil Worshipper. It's painful, it really is.

133 abolitionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 8:38:31pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

David Barton has recently been endorsing a gubernatorial candidate in Iowa

David Barton endorses Vander Plaats

This can't be good. I've seen David Barton sharing the stage as a featured speaker with Ken Hamm at an Answers in Genesis seminar in Virginia in 2002.

Barton is president and founder of Wallbuilders.com - bio
Issues and Articles (many by David Barton)

134 abolitionist  Thu, Jan 7, 2010 8:46:56pm

PIMF: Ken Ham

135 lostlakehiker  Fri, Jan 8, 2010 8:39:18am
The way I evaluate history textbooks is first I see how they cover Christianity and Israel. Then I see how they treat Ronald Reagan—he needs to get credit for saving the world from communism and for the good economy over the last twenty years because he lowered taxes.”

Views like these are relatively common in East Texas, a region that prides itself on being the buckle of the Bible Belt.


Two sad things here. The main problem is that McLeroy holds the opinion (I won't say "thinks") that evolution is hooey. People hold all sorts of counterfactual views, but this is in the same category as thinking the sun goes around the earth.

But the other problem is that the author of the article about McLeroy holds the opinion (I won't say "thinks") that it is just as far from factual to believe that Reagan's lowering taxes helped the economy, or that Reagan had anything to do with the end of the Soviet Empire.

Reagan did lower taxes, and the economy did enjoy a sustained boom. Reagan did call on Gorbachev to take down the Berlin wall, and in a twist of fate that you couldn't write into a B movie about a superhero president, down it came, by and by. There is just no comparison between the error of believing that evolution is hooey, and the quite sensible opinion that Reagan was a good president.

And school textbooks are not very strong on history if they leave out Reagan's connection to the story of the Berlin wall.

136 Hakkoryu  Fri, Jan 8, 2010 10:13:30pm

Schools that indoctrinate in favor of promiscuity, homosexuality, and the like...good? Schools that allow for free expression of faith and entertain the idea of an alternative to evolutionary theory...bad? You guys are sad.

137 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 9, 2010 1:56:06am

re: #136 Hakkoryu

Schools that indoctrinate in favor of promiscuity, homosexuality, and the like...good?

Links, please. Credible, factual ones, please.

138 iceweasel  Sat, Jan 9, 2010 2:04:46am

re: #136 Hakkoryu

Schools that indoctrinate in favor of promiscuity, homosexuality, and the like...good? Schools that allow for free expression of faith and entertain the idea of an alternative to evolutionary theory...bad? You guys are sad.

Newsflash, moron: there are no schools that 'indoctrinate in favour of promiscuity'. And none 'indoctrinate' homosexuality either.

And yes, schools that 'entertain the idea of an alternative to evolutionary theory' are bad. Because they are indoctrinating kids with lies that undercut science -- which is factual, not some 'dogma' -- and as such, they're helping to raise a generation of ignoramuses, who can't contribute to science, intellectual culture, or anything but the furthering of a medieval agenda.

You're stealing the propaganda of the ID movement, which pretends it merely is offering an intellectual 'alternative' to evolution completely divorced from religion. Nonsense. If that were so, they'd be quite content for ID to be taught where it always has been: In universities as part of a philosophy class or in theological schools.

139 iceweasel  Sat, Jan 9, 2010 2:13:10am

re: #136 Hakkoryu

Schools that indoctrinate in favor of promiscuity, homosexuality, and the like...good?

I really shouldn't feed the troll this way, but WTF? "Indoctrinate in favour of promiscuity"? I bet by that you mean "teach anything other than abstinence" and "acknowledge that people have sex before marriage".

140 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, Jan 9, 2010 2:13:45am

re: #136 Hakkoryu

And BTW, ID/Creationism is not a credible, demonstrable theory, scientific or otherwise. If there is anyone who is a "sad" example of rational thought, it is those who believe it is.

Tell me, what testable, falsifiable hypotheses does Intelligent Design put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the Discovery Institute, or any other promoters of ID/Creationism? On what grounds can anyone claim that ID/Creationism is a scientific theory?

Alternative theory my arse! It is untestable, unverifiable, unfalsifiable, indemonstrable speculation. No more confirmable nor deniable in the scientific sense than is the existence of Jove.

Sad indeed, that your position is so weak you would think bringing a strawmen of such poor caliber here would make a valid point.

Schools that indoctrinate in favor of promiscuity, homosexuality, and the like...good?


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