The Justice Department has released a statement about this article by Scott Horton at Harper’s Magazine, saying that an investigation has uncovered no evidence of wrongdoing — but Horton’s piece contains some very disturbing details that strongly suggest the full story has yet to come out: The Guantánamo “Suicides”: A Camp Delta sergeant blows the whistle.
2 |
Digital Display Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:18:32am |
Good Morning Lizards..
This is a disturbing article by Harpers..
| 3 |
theheat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:18:58am |
Warehousing bad guys and suspected bad guys has been a double edged sword from the get-go. Yeah, there are a lot of really dangerous assholes there. There are also people who have never been charged with a crime.
If know if I was rotting in prison year after year, without being charged with a crime, I'd be "a little grumpy" about it, to paraphrase the late Steve Irwin.
| 4 |
Ben Hur Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:19:09am |
re: #1 _RememberTonyC
Uh oh ... Better investigate this ASAP.
It has been.
But that's besides the point.
| 5 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:19:46am |
When I asked Talal Al-Zahrani what he thought had happened to his son, he was direct. “They snatched my seventeen-year-old son for a bounty payment,” he said. “They took him to Guantánamo and held him prisoner for five years. They tortured him. Then they killed him and returned him to me in a box, cut up.”
SNIP
What the (*&!?
| 6 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:19:54am |
| 7 |
theheat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:20:58am |
re: #5 Rightwingconspirator
I believe "cut up" probably refers to post-autopsy, or embalmed.
| 8 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:21:08am |
General Al-Zahrani grieves for his son, but at the end of a lengthy interview he paused and his thoughts turned elsewhere. “The truth is what matters,” he said. “They practiced every form of torture on my son and on many others as well. What was the result? What facts did they find? They found nothing. They learned nothing. They accomplished nothing.”
He says the truth is what matters and that they practiced every form of torture on his son.
He doesn't care about the truth.
| 9 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:21:23am |
re: #4 Ben Hur
It has been.
But that's besides the point.
Yes ... but.
I do trust the military, however, good people have been known to go into "CYA Mode" at times.
| 10 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:22:17am |
re: #9 _RememberTonyC
Yes ... but.
I do trust the military, however, good people have been known to go into "CYA Mode" at times.
So they deliberately murdered 3 folks and faked their suicides. To what end?
| 12 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:24:41am |
re: #7 theheat
I suppose the throat. And box was coffin. But this just gave me a chill like nothing I have read in a long time. For the first time ever I'm thinking war crimes as a serious rather than a rhetorical accusation. My god, what if this takes down both Presidents? I mean if this stuff continued over the last year... Hello President Biden.
| 13 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:25:12am |
re: #12 Rightwingconspirator
And be glad of it BTW!
| 14 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:26:08am |
Why would the Bush Justice Department try to cover this up?
| 15 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:26:40am |
re: #13 Rightwingconspirator
And be glad of it BTW!
My you are feelin feisty this morning! Second cup of Joe, Hummm?
| 16 |
Digital Display Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:27:06am |
re: #10 rwdflynavy
So they deliberately murdered 3 folks and faked their suicides. To what end?
Good Question.. But it is striking how close this is to the Story of A few good men Rag down the throat of someone at Gitmo..
| 17 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:28:16am |
re: #16 HoosierHoops
Good Question.. But it is striking how close this is to the Story of A few good men Rag down the throat of someone at Gitmo..
That was fiction. I agree this is strikingly close to fiction.
| 18 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:32:38am |
re: #14 Walter L. Newton
Why would the Bush Justice Department try to cover this up?
I just got that.
| 19 |
Digital Display Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:33:31am |
re: #11 MandyManners
Interesting...He certainly writes the article from a certain point of view..
I would have preferred reading an account of this from a neutral writer and not a human rights lawyer..
I want the truth!
You can't handle the truth!
| 20 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:33:33am |
| 21 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:34:28am |
I for one will be glad when it's closed. They have way too much secrecy going on out there that makes me real wary of the military ever telling the truth about whats really going on there. CYA seem to be the policy there and I don't like it one bit!
| 22 |
Obdicut Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:35:06am |
According to the NCIS documents, each prisoner had fashioned a noose from torn sheets and T-shirts and tied it to the top of his cell’s eight-foot-high steel-mesh wall. Each prisoner was able somehow to bind his own hands, and, in at least one case, his own feet, then stuff more rags deep down into his own throat. We are then asked to believe that each prisoner, even as he was choking on those rags, climbed up on his washbasin, slipped his head through the noose, tightened it, and leapt from the washbasin to hang until he asphyxiated. The NCIS report also proposes that the three prisoners, who were held in non-adjoining cells, carried out each of these actions almost simultaneously.
If that's an accurate summation of the report-- that does seem physically impossible to pull off. And the re-occurrence... that's either an insane conspiracy to commit suicide, or an insane conspiracy to fake suicides and cover up murder.
And this:
Now four members of the Military Intelligence unit assigned to guard Camp Delta, including a decorated non-commissioned Army officer who was on duty as sergeant of the guard the night of June 9, have furnished an account dramatically at odds with the NCIS report—a report for which they were neither interviewed nor approached.
Makes it look even worse.
| 23 |
_RememberTonyC Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:35:27am |
re: #10 rwdflynavy
So they deliberately murdered 3 folks and faked their suicides. To what end?
I am not prejudging ... I hope it is not true
| 24 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:36:39am |
re: #10 rwdflynavy
So they deliberately murdered 3 folks and faked their suicides. To what end?
CYA, CYA, CYA!
| 25 |
MandyManners Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:36:39am |
re: #19 HoosierHoops
Interesting...He certainly writes the article from a certain point of view..
I would have preferred reading an account of this from a neutral writer and not a human rights lawyer..
I want the truth!
You can't handle the truth!
He's represented three detainees.
| 26 |
Digital Display Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:37:22am |
re: #20 Walter L. Newton
Try another cup of coffee. :)
OT: sorry...Walter..how far do you live from Denver? I may need to call you today about something
| 27 |
Mad Al-Jaffee Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:38:05am |
| 28 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:38:14am |
re: #25 MandyManners
Even given that, murdering captives isn't something we do in America without some form of due process. Or is it?
| 29 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:38:21am |
| 30 |
Digital Display Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:39:05am |
| 31 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:39:26am |
For those we didn't read it when it was recently declassified, or those who believe the US never tortured, here's the link to the OIG CIA Report from 2004: pdf document.
That's the Office of the Inspector General of the CIA.
Some highlights: footnotes 14 and 26:
"According to individuals with authoritative knowledge of the SERE program, the waterboard was used for demonstration purposes on a very small number of students in a class. Except for Navy SERE training, use of the waterboard was discontinued because of its dramatic effect on the students who were subjects."
Footnote 26:
According to the Chief, Medical Services, OMS was neither consulted nor involved in the initial analysis of the risk and benefits of EITs, nor provided with the 01' 5 report cited in the OLC opinion. In retrospect, based on the OLC extracts of the OTS report, OMS contends that the reported sophistication of the preliminary EIT review was exaggerated, at least as it related to the waterboard, and that the power of this EIT was appreciably overstated in the report. Furthermore, OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologist / interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. Consequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the water board with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist / interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.
repost from spinoffs.
| 33 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:39:56am |
OT but I'm jazzed..Norah Jones is coming to my area in March. Tickets go on sale on Friday!
| 34 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:40:18am |
re: #26 HoosierHoops
OT: sorry...Walter..how far do you live from Denver? I may need to call you today about something
From downtown Denver (like city hall) about 45 miles west. I work in Littleton, which is on the west side of town, and that's about 22 miles east of me, downhill.
I will only be here until about noon, I'm on the second shift at the store tonight, you know, the furniture shlepping team, so won't be back until late.
| 35 |
lawhawk Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:40:29am |
It's in Horton's interest to dig up as much dirt as he can to find wrongdoing at Gitmo seeing how he's been critical of US treatment of detainees in the past, including Bilal Hussein. He's been opposed to the US treatment of detainees in the fashion they were under the Bush Administration (and continued by Obama - and will continue to be treated in same fashion through at least 2011 or later as Congress has provided no funding to close Gitmo). So, he's got an agenda isn't an understatement.
Now, are any of his allegations true? The Justice Department and the military have investigated and found no wrongdoing. Coverup? Really? In the year since Obama took office, you don't think someone in AG Holder's office wouldn't have investigated the matter further to see if there was wrongdoing so that they could use it to hasten the close of the facility? It would be in the Administration's interest to find and publicize any wrongdoing so that they can fulfill a campaign promise to close Gitmo in addition to punishing those who violated the UCMJ (those military officials responsible for the detention would have violated provisions of the military code of justice).
| 36 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:42:51am |
re: #35 lawhawk
Nobody had the balls to go after Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney and Yoo, so I don't see this turning out any different.
| 37 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:43:07am |
Here are some DOD reports listing manners of death of detainees. Over 100 classified as homicides.
The hippie military haters who concluded that? That would be the well-known military-hating organisation known as the Department of Defense and their doctors.
| 39 |
lawhawk Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:44:37am |
re: #22 Obdicut
The four officers have offered dramatically different accounts? In what way are they different? That the account of what happened makes it more or less likely it was suicide?
And if their accounts differ from the NCIS report, what is the culpability of those officers since they would be in the know? Does that mean the NCIS report investigators lied or made up details?
| 40 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:45:40am |
Now Mr. Beck, which political party was it that you said supported an Oligarchy?
Supreme Court eases restrictions on corporate campaign spending (5-4 Decision)
| 41 |
Obdicut Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:46:10am |
re: #39 lawhawk
The four officers have offered dramatically different accounts? In what way are they different? That the account of what happened makes it more or less likely it was suicide?
The article is actually rather thorough on those points.
| 42 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:46:11am |
re: #38 Obdicut
Did you read the article?
I did...quite the story, but I still don't understand what motive there was for these killings...and of course, why isn't the MSN and BOs admin all over this?....somethings fishy
| 43 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:46:22am |
re: #39 lawhawk
The military has a history of covering up embarrassing episodes: See Pat Tillman, et al.
Given that, most people are much less likely to dismiss this out of hand.
| 44 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:47:45am |
re: #43 PT Barnum
The military has a history of covering up embarrassing episodes: See Pat Tillman, et al.
Given that, most people are much less likely to dismiss this out of hand.
The Tillman episode still baffles and troubles me.
| 45 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:47:56am |
re: #21 Dragon_Lady
I for one will be glad when it's closed. They have way too much secrecy going on out there that makes me real wary of the military ever telling the truth about whats really going on there. CYA seem to be the policy there and I don't like it one bit!
Unfortunately closing Gitmo, while important, doesn't mean we'll stop holding people off-site elsewhere and without access to council (or a trial). Initial indications are that the 'New Gitmo' will be Bagram (and already is, to some extent).
CAP: Postpone Gitmo Close, Send Leftovers to Bagram
Those concerned that the Bagram detention center in Afghanistan is becoming “Obama’s Gitmo,” as it’s increasingly called, may not appreciate Gude’s final recommendation. While Gude would imprison anyone convicted in U.S. criminal courts in U.S. prisons, as we usually do, he recommends transferring anyone now at Guantanamo who will remain in military custody — either to be tried by a military commission or simply to be detained indefinitely — to the U.S.-run prison at Bagram.
| 46 |
Obdicut Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:48:38am |
re: #42 albusteve
Steve Ballmer likes that typo.
As for why Barack Obama's administration isn't all over this, the article says this:
The Justice Department thus faced a dilemma; it could do the politically convenient thing, which was to find no justification for a thorough investigation, leave the NCIS conclusions in place, and hope that the public and the news media would obey the Obama Administration’s dictum to “look forward, not backward”; or it could pursue a course of action that would implicate the Bush Justice Department in a cover-up of possible homicides.
So it appears that Obama's administration is at least tacitly assisting a cover-up. I think this article was probably published to put pressure on Obama for an additional investigation into the matter.
| 47 |
MandyManners Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:49:46am |
re: #28 PT Barnum
Even given that, murdering captives isn't something we do in America without some form of due process. Or is it?
Whom are you accusing of murder?
| 48 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:50:06am |
re: #45 iceweasel
Okay, refresh my memory. I do not remember where Bagram is exactly. For give my ignorance?
| 49 |
Obdicut Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:50:11am |
re: #46 Obdicut
Er, assisting a cover-up if one exists, I should say.
Given Hickman's statements, though, someone is lying-- or creatively arranging the truth-- either he or the original reports and investigations.
| 50 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:50:23am |
re: #28 PT Barnum
Even given that, murdering captives isn't something we do in America without some form of due process. Or is it?
It is.
| 51 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:51:01am |
re: #50 iceweasel
It is.
Right. Time I stepped out of this thread before I blow a blood vessel. Be back later, lizards.
| 52 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:52:00am |
re: #51 thedopefishlives
Right. Time I stepped out of this thread before I blow a blood vessel. Be back later, lizards.
I'm beginning to feel the same way, but I'll hang in there for a while longer.
| 53 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:52:08am |
re: #48 Dragon_Lady
Okay, refresh my memory. I do not remember where Bagram is exactly. For give my ignorance?
An air force base in Afghanastan
| 54 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:52:17am |
re: #47 MandyManners
If the captives were murdered or tortured to death (no difference in my mind) then it should be investigated and prosecuted.
The odds that they were just suicides seems a bit suspect at this point and should be looked into further.
| 55 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:52:19am |
Harper's has always been against the WOT. I'll need another source before I take their word for anything regarding it.
| 56 |
Soap_Man Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:54:08am |
re: #43 PT Barnum
The military has a history of covering up embarrassing episodes: See Pat Tillman, et al.
Given that, most people are much less likely to dismiss this out of hand.
The Tillman incident itself wasn't even an embarrassing episode. The cover-up was what was embarrassing.
| 57 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:54:16am |
re: #48 Dragon_Lady
Okay, refresh my memory. I do not remember where Bagram is exactly. For give my ignorance?
Afghanistan. Here's wiki on toture and homicides there.
It's wiki, of course, so take that for what it's worth. But here is the 2002 US Army report the NYT did a piece on back in 2005
In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths
| 58 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:55:17am |
re: #56 Soap_Man
If the original incident wasn't embarrassing, why bother to cover it up?
| 59 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:55:22am |
re: #55 The Sanity Inspector
Harper's has always been against the WOT. I'll need another source before I take their word for anything regarding it.
Then you can check the Seton Hall report, linked in spinoffs, or the CIA 2004 linked there, or the Department of Defences own reports on detainee deaths, linked upthread.
| 60 |
Digital Display Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:55:28am |
re: #56 Soap_Man
The Tillman incident itself wasn't even an embarrassing episode. The cover-up was what was embarrassing.
Who said the first casualty of war is the truth?
| 61 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:55:45am |
re: #46 Obdicut
Steve Ballmer likes that typo.
As for why Barack Obama's administration isn't all over this, the article says this:
So it appears that Obama's administration is at least tacitly assisting a cover-up. I think this article was probably published to put pressure on Obama for an additional investigation into the matter.
that's Horton's speculation...maybe Holder should make an official statement
| 62 |
lawhawk Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:55:56am |
The Harper's article notes that there were 1700 pages of the NCIS report, much of it highly redacted and admitted by Harpers to be virtually indecipherable and a Seton Hall Law school team tried to decipher it. Their version is the version that this article is based on.
They note multiple contradictions, but is it also not possible that the reason there were multiple contradictions is that the report was redacted and the key details that would make the events understandable were in the sections redacted?
Further, if there was an intention to murder these three detainees by guards or others at Gitmo, would there not have been easier ways to accomplish this without going through the Rube Goldbergian contraptions and events as described? The same goes for the suicide theory. Again, I think the solution lies in what was redacted, not by what the Seton Hall team came up with.
| 63 |
Donna Ballard Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:56:44am |
re: #53 sattv4u2
An air force base in Afghanastan
Oh God. I'm really beginning to hate where this is going. My stomach is starting to convulse as the thoughts of what might be going on over there reverberate in my head. Time to exit this before they truly rebel. I'm too nice for this topic. See you later guys!
| 64 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:56:57am |
re: #54 PT Barnum
If the captives were murdered or tortured to death (no difference in my mind) then it should be investigated and prosecuted.
The odds that they were just suicides seems a bit suspect at this point and should be looked into further.
Note I said, IF. But I dont' think anyone should dismiss this article out of hand.
| 65 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:58:08am |
re: #64 PT Barnum
Note I said, IF. But I dont' think anyone should dismiss this article out of hand.
No, it shouldn't be. There are numerous questions remaining, and there is more than enough other evidence of similar activities happening for the last several years.
| 66 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:58:19am |
re: #58 PT Barnum
If the original incident wasn't embarrassing, why bother to cover it up?
They thought the American public was too immature to handle to the fact that a highly publicized soldier had died through friendly fire. In the process, they made themselves look really bad.
| 67 |
captdiggs Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:59:32am |
re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist
The Tillman episode still baffles and troubles me.
But the truth always comes out, eventually.
I don't know the truth of this story, but it is very hard to keep a conspiracy that involves so many people under wraps.
Navy NCIS is very competent and all officers involved know the ramifications of any intentional coverup.
| 68 |
Obdicut Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:59:59am |
re: #55 The Sanity Inspector
I think it's very unlikely that they'd misquote or misrepresent Hickman himself. And that his lawyer would be party to misrepresentations of his client's statements-- that strikes me as a career-ending move.
Further, if there was an intention to murder these three detainees by guards or others at Gitmo, would there not have been easier ways to accomplish this without going through the Rube Goldbergian contraptions and events as described?
Do you understand that the Rube Goldbergian contraptions are the ones claimed by the official story to have been used by the prisoners to kill themselves?
| 69 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:00:16am |
re: #45 iceweasel
Initial indications are that the 'New Gitmo' will be Bagram
Lets close a prison that is virtually isolated from retribution attacks that people hate and associate with torture and transfer these people to another prison that is NOT isolated from retribution attacks that people hate and associate with torture
What could possibly go wrong!?!?!
| 70 |
Soap_Man Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:00:31am |
re: #58 PT Barnum
If the original incident wasn't embarrassing, why bother to cover it up?
Because he was a well-known football player and there was a tremendous outpouring of respect after he died. Obviously, they wanted to portray his death as "heroically" as possible. There was nothing embarrassing about his death, it just didn't fit the narrative the military was trying to set up.
Personally, I don't think dying from friendly fire is any less heroic. I think the reaction from the public would have been the same if they were honest from the get-go.
| 71 |
Obdicut Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:00:40am |
re: #68 Obdicut
Sorry, the second part of my above post was for lawhawk. Apologies.
| 72 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:02:44am |
re: #71 Obdicut
lahawk seems to be hoping that if he asks enough leading questions he can avoid having to face up the possibility that something went very wrong and just got wronger as time went on. (yeah, I know wronger isn't a word)
| 73 |
The Sanity Inspector Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:04:03am |
re: #72 PT Barnum
lahawk seems to be hoping that if he asks enough leading questions he can avoid having to face up the possibility that something went very wrong and just got wronger as time went on. (yeah, I know wronger isn't a word)
Would've been a good one for yesterday's grammar nazi thread, though.
| 74 |
Obdicut Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:04:22am |
re: #72 PT Barnum
Rather than speculating about the motives of others on the internet, I prefer to simply let what they say and what I say do the talking. Interwebs psychologist is a fools game, Mr. Barnum.
| 75 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:04:46am |
re: #72 PT Barnum
lahawk seems to be hoping that if he asks enough leading questions he can avoid having to face up the possibility that something went very wrong and just got wronger as time went on. (yeah, I know wronger isn't a word)
Is this the current administrations Justice Department that's mentioned in the article?
| 76 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:05:05am |
re: #74 Obdicut
You might be right..but the rhetorical flourishes he was using were overly obvious.
| 77 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:05:13am |
re: #70 Soap_Man
I think the reaction from the public would have been the same if they were honest from the get-go.
Not from a PR standpoint
Johnny in BackWoods Kentucky would be more likely to sign up if he thought a famous football player gave it all up and went down fighting killed by the bad guys
If someone had told a freind of mine that he was going to die in a car (jeep) accident in Vietnam instead of in battle, he most likely wouldn't have enlisted
| 78 |
abolitionist Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:05:24am |
| 79 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:06:26am |
re: #51 thedopefishlives
Right. Time I stepped out of this thread before I blow a blood vessel. Be back later, lizards.
You know, I realise this isn't a pleasant subject. And I realise that it's absolutely horrifying to realise what happened. But nothing is to be gained by just closing our eyes to this and insisting it never happened.
I'm not talking merely about the Horton article, either. Most of us haven't looked because we don't want to know what went on, and in general both the govt and the media didn't especially want to talk about it either.
And probably another reason why people are resistant to looking is because unfair attacks were often made on Bush/Cheney in re: the war on terror.
Finally, none of us wants these things to be true because America is supposed to be the good guys. We're supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard than others, because that's what we're about.
But we did subvert some of our own core values as a country post-9-11. Which is something no outside force, however malignant, could have done to us. We did it to ourselves.
| 80 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:06:39am |
re: #72 PT Barnum
lahawk seems to be hoping that if he asks enough leading questions he can avoid having to face up the possibility that something went very wrong and just got wronger as time went on. (yeah, I know wronger isn't a word)
ah, that does not really fit Lawhawks MO
| 81 |
Obdicut Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:06:40am |
re: #77 sattv4u2
My grandfather considered his main job as an officer to prevent guys from dying for dumb reasons.
| 87 |
lawhawk Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:12:00am |
re: #72 PT Barnum
Punish those who engaged in wrongdoing, but you have to acknowledge that the Seton Hall reconstruction could be seriously flawed because they were basing their results on a highly redacted report - where key details were likely blocked out from the report that would shed light on potential wrongdoing, or to suggest how the events could have gone down the way they did. The Harpers article is based heavily on the Seton Hall reconstruction, which is admittedly lacking because of the highly redacted nature. We would be much better served if the whole report were released, and not just a redacted version.
If the report was influenced by political decisions, that too should be investigated. If the DOJ is burying details of wrongdoing, investigate and punish.
| 89 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:12:45am |
re: #86 PT Barnum
I was listening..
Evidently not, since I asked you a question and I didn't see an answer... "Is this the current administrations Justice Department that's mentioned in the article?"
| 90 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:13:30am |
re: #87 lawhawk
On that we agree. I just want to know whether or not we are doing this crap, and if we are that we are stopping.
| 91 |
bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:13:52am |
Furthermore, new evidence now emerging may entangle Obama’s young administration with crimes that occurred during the George W. Bush presidency, evidence that suggests the current administration failed to investigate seriously—and may even have continued—a cover-up of the possible homicides of three prisoners at Guantánamo in 2006.
What partisan tripe. Who cares why a few terrorists commit suicide? Let them all rot in hell. Scott Horton is a traitor.
The terrorists are already far better treated than they deserve and every effort is made to prevent them from committing more crimes like these suicides, so they found a 'loop hole' good for them, three less terrorists for the leftists to weep over.
| 92 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:14:43am |
re: #89 Walter L. Newton
Sorry, I figured you had already read the article, and so didn't need to reply. it appears that the Justice department is the current one, but the crimes occurred during the Bush Administration.
In my mind, the Justice department should go after them and go after them hard.
| 93 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:14:57am |
re: #91 bagua
What partisan tripe. Who cares why a few terrorists commit suicide? Let them all rot in hell. Scott Horton is a traitor.
The terrorists are already far better treated than they deserve and every effort is made to prevent them from committing more crimes like these suicides, so they found a 'loop hole' good for them, three less terrorists for the leftists to weep over.
maybe Holder himself is dirty
| 94 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:15:50am |
re: #91 bagua
Have trouble knawing through the leather straps this morning?
| 95 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:16:14am |
re: #91 bagua
What partisan tripe. Who cares why a few terrorists commit suicide? Let them all rot in hell. Scott Horton is a traitor.
The terrorists are already far better treated than they deserve and every effort is made to prevent them from committing more crimes like these suicides, so they found a 'loop hole' good for them, three less terrorists for the leftists to weep over.
Did you read how the story about how they killed themselves? It seems to paint a pretty difficult picture to swallow.
| 97 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:16:50am |
| 98 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:17:02am |
re: #92 PT Barnum
Sorry, I figured you had already read the article, and so didn't need to reply. it appears that the Justice department is the current one, but the crimes occurred during the Bush Administration.
In my mind, the Justice department should go after them and go after them hard.
It all points out how the left fell for all that hope and change bullshit... you wanted change, you got jack shit... congrats.
| 99 |
metrolibertarian Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:17:25am |
re: #91 bagua
Explain how Scott Horton is a traitor.
| 100 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:17:31am |
re: #94 PT Barnum
Have trouble knawing through the leather straps this morning?
nice "rhetorical flourish"
| 101 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:18:16am |
re: #12 Rightwingconspirator
I suppose the throat. And box was coffin. But this just gave me a chill like nothing I have read in a long time. For the first time ever I'm thinking war crimes as a serious rather than a rhetorical accusation. My god, what if this takes down both Presidents? I mean if this stuff continued over the last year... Hello President Biden.
That's one reason why the prosecutions we're so far seeing, initated under Holder, have such extremely narrow and limited scope.
Those prosecutions were announced at noon on the day following the ACLU winning the court case that compelled the release of the 2004 OIG CIA report.
Contrary to the fantasies on the right, Obama (and Holder) have exactly zero interest in ever seeing Bush, Cheney, Yoo, et al. ever prosecuted-- because it would open the door for the same to happen to Obama admin officials, and possibly even Obama, in future.
The prosecutions that are going to take place will target a few low level operatives who 'exceeded' the EIT. And possibly some (lowlevel) lawyers. Those prosecutions, should they happen, will therefore have the effect of legitimising the Yoo memos ex post facto -- they will take it as a given that the Yoo framework is valid, that is.
So, meet the new boss, same as the old boss, more or less.
| 102 |
ryannon Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:18:16am |
re: #95 jamesfirecat
Did you read how the story about how they killed themselves? It seems to paint a pretty difficult picture to swallow.
Especially with rags stuffed down their throats.
What a mess.
| 103 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:19:30am |
re: #98 Walter L. Newton
Although there was a much greater chance of that happening with Obama than with McCain, IMO. I am disappointed, though. I would have wanted Obama and Justice to go after the pricks that perpetrated this. Not sure how well that would have done for W's already tarnished legacy, though.
| 104 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:20:50am |
re: #100 albusteve
Sorry, I was looking for something funnier than woke up on the wrong side of the bed and over did it.
| 105 |
ryannon Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:22:03am |
re: #94 PT Barnum
Have trouble knawing through the leather straps this morning?
Funniest thing I've read so far in a very downbeat thread.
| 106 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:22:22am |
re: #103 PT Barnum
Although there was a much greater chance of that happening with Obama than with McCain, IMO. I am disappointed, though. I would have wanted Obama and Justice to go after the pricks that perpetrated this. Not sure how well that would have done for W's already tarnished legacy, though.
Who cares?
| 107 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:22:24am |
re: #69 sattv4u2
Initial indications are that the 'New Gitmo' will be Bagram
Lets close a prison that is virtually isolated from retribution attacks that people hate and associate with torture and transfer these people to another prison that is NOT isolated from retribution attacks that people hate and associate with torture
What could possibly go wrong!?!?!
Bagram's already had a prison, and as indicated in the 2005 article in the NYT I already linked, detainee abuses were already taking place there in 2002, according to the US Army itself.
| 108 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:24:43am |
| 109 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:26:14am |
re: #106 Walter L. Newton
You seem to be quite incensed that Obama is president. You asked me how the hope and change thing is working as if I should be ready to throw the bum out after only 1 year in office. I didn't feel that way about W until he'd been in there almost 4. I'm a little disappointed so far, but I'm not ready to give up entirely yet.
| 110 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:26:20am |
re: #103 PT Barnum
Although there was a much greater chance of that happening with Obama than with McCain, IMO. I am disappointed, though. I would have wanted Obama and Justice to go after the pricks that perpetrated this. Not sure how well that would have done for W's already tarnished legacy, though.
Don't forget how it would look to the nation. Could you imagine how the Republicans would react if Obama's first act as President was to launch an investigation into if Dick Cheney and George W. Bush were war criminals?
| 111 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:27:31am |
I never liked the idea of terrorist detainees in the first place, except in the most high value cases...and I never liked the idea that civilians or the media be allowed access to these facilities...there has always been a Plan B on the table
| 112 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:30:08am |
re: #109 PT Barnum
You seem to be quite incensed that Obama is president. You asked me how the hope and change thing is working as if I should be ready to throw the bum out after only 1 year in office. I didn't feel that way about W until he'd been in there almost 4. I'm a little disappointed so far, but I'm not ready to give up entirely yet.
No, I'm incensed that this could be going on and his Justice Department may be covering it up. I'm incensed that he promised to close Gitmo and it's still open. I'm incensed that he promised health care and he can't even get his own party on the same page. I'm incensed that we have a man in the white house that has not accomplished anything he promise.
I love it how the progressives are ready to suck it up and make believe it's not as bad as it is, when the evidence is so evident that there is no way for you to ignore it anymore.
Happy now?
| 113 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:30:53am |
re: #111 albusteve
I never liked the idea of terrorist detainees in the first place, except in the most high value cases...and I never liked the idea that civilians or the media be allowed access to these facilities...there has always been a Plan B on the table
Yes if only the people never knew what was going on in our prisons nobody would complain about it!
| 114 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:31:30am |
re: #110 jamesfirecat
I don't disagree, it was politically untenable. But it irks me that no one who is really responsible will ever be held accountable for something that in many people's minds was much more serious than lying about getting a (insert oral sex euphemism here)
| 115 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:31:45am |
re: #113 jamesfirecat
Yes if only the people never knew what was going on in our prisons nobody would complain about it!
yup, war is hell
| 116 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:32:23am |
re: #113 jamesfirecat
Yes if only the people never knew what was going on in our prisons nobody would complain about it!
Yeah, it's not the crime, it's the, uh, inability to cover it up. that's it!
/Wait, that doesn't sound right...
| 117 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:32:38am |
re: #112 Walter L. Newton
Yeah...I am. I at least have a sense that you are as dissappointed as I am..I was under the impression that you were suffering from ODS, somehow.
| 118 |
bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:33:24am |
re: #99 metrolibertarian
Explain how Scott Horton is a traitor.
Not worth the effort. Lock him up with the terrorists he supports and we can argue over the details.
| 119 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:33:37am |
re: #114 PT Barnum
I don't disagree, it was politically untenable. But it irks me that no one who is really responsible will ever be held accountable for something that in many people's minds was much more serious than lying about getting a (insert oral sex euphemism here)
Believe me it irks me to, that Obama apparently has to let by gones be by gones, he should have also been the cop who was looking for the arsonist rather than just the firefighter trying to put out the blaze. I suppose you can argue it doesn't make sense to get to work on that first job till the second is taken care of, but I've got low hopes of anything ever coming from it.
| 120 |
Obdicut Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:34:18am |
re: #112 Walter L. Newton
Hyperbole doesn't help, Walter. That nifty promise-meter thingy [Link: www.politifact.com...] allows us to track what promises he's fulfilled and which he's broken.
| 121 |
KernelPanic Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:35:36am |
I don't subscribe to any theories that suggest we intentionally murdered detainees but I do find it possible that they might have died under some messed up and interrogation effort which could explain the reason for a coverup in the first place - especially if the questioning was handled by outside contractors (which I think is common?) rather than uniformed military professionals or if the questioning was done on behalf of the CIA or some other group outside of the standard chain of command there.
The description of the deaths makes it hard to seriously believe suicide. Hanging fine. Hanging after filling your own throat with rags? A little hard to believe.
| 122 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:35:39am |
re: #118 bagua
Not worth the effort. Lock him up with the terrorists he supports and we can argue over the details.
Argumentum ad populum
If he really is a traitor why is he talking about Gitmo instead of in it?
| 123 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:35:44am |
re: #120 Obdicut
Hyperbole doesn't help, Walter. That nifty promise-meter thingy [Link: www.politifact.com...] allows us to track what promises he's fulfilled and which he's broken.
BO is a serial liar....besides that his performance record is pitiful
| 124 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:36:01am |
re: #117 PT Barnum
Yeah...I am. I at least have a sense that you are as dissappointed as I am..I was under the impression that you were suffering from ODS, somehow.
I'm not suffering from anything. I don't like the president. So, if I don't like the president, I'm suffering from something? Bullshit. I guess that makes me a racist too! and anti-american, and a right wing nut and a denier and...
Have any other diagnoses for me, jerk.
| 125 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:39:09am |
re: #107 iceweasel
Bagram's already had a prison, and as indicated in the 2005 article in the NYT I already linked, detainee abuses were already taking place there in 2002, according to the US Army itself.
And as I stated, there is no "upside" to making it the new Gitmo
| 126 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:39:52am |
re: #120 Obdicut
Hyperbole doesn't help, Walter. That nifty promise-meter thingy [Link: www.politifact.com...] allows us to track what promises he's fulfilled and which he's broken.
Well, hell, with that logic, anything that he hasn't accomplished yet could be said as pending, right up to the his last day in office. I'm not waiting that long to decide if he is not living up to my standards.
| 127 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:40:30am |
re: #123 albusteve
BO is a serial liar...besides that his performance record is pitiful
91 Kept to 15 Broken is hardly the mark of a serial liar to me.
I wonder what a site like that would look like if we held Bush up to it?
| 128 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:41:59am |
re: #127 jamesfirecat
91 Kept to 15 Broken is hardly the mark of a serial liar to me.
I wonder what a site like that would look like if we held Bush up to it?
comparisons to Bush are old, tied, weak and especially irrelevant...carry on tho if it makes you feel better about BO
| 129 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:42:04am |
re: #125 sattv4u2
And as I stated, there is no "upside" to making it the new Gitmo
You implied that it would somehow increase the security risks there. There is no reason to believe that, because it's almost always been the "Other Gitmo".
Not that I support the abuses that occurred in either, or the continuing hold of these people without access to council or trials of any sort.
| 130 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:42:25am |
re: #127 jamesfirecat
91 Kept to 15 Broken is hardly the mark of a serial liar to me.
I wonder what a site like that would look like if we held Bush up to it?
You DO know that Bush isn't the President anymore
And if you do know that, will you please tell Obama and Howard Dean?
| 131 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:42:34am |
re: #127 jamesfirecat
91 Kept to 15 Broken is hardly the mark of a serial liar to me.
I wonder what a site like that would look like if we held Bush up to it?
Bush was a lier, Obama is a liar, lies are lies and don't give anyone any note if they lie... you can deal with that bullshit if you want, I won't. Of course, my standards are probably a little higher than you. If you like shit, enjoy.
| 132 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:42:39am |
re: #124 Walter L. Newton
I'm not suffering from anything. I don't like the president. So, if I don't like the president, I'm suffering from something? Bullshit. I guess that makes me a racist too! and anti-american, and a right wing nut and a denier and...
Have any other diagnoses for me, jerk.
I got that you didn't like the president. I was just trying to figure out if it was an unreasoning dislike or a dislike that actually had some actual logic behind it. ODS is the former and I generally dismiss people who seem to dislike the president out of hand rather than for specific reasons. that have to do with what he's done in office rather than any paranoid fears of what he might do.
You and albusteve both appear to have deep seated dislike of this president, I just wondered whether it was rational.
| 133 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:43:16am |
re: #129 iceweasel
You implied that it would somehow increase the security risks there. There is no reason to believe that, because it's almost always been the "Other Gitmo".
Not that I support the abuses that occurred in either, or the continuing hold of these people without access to council or trials of any sort.
It's location alone "implies" that there would be an increase in security risks
| 134 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:43:53am |
re: #126 Walter L. Newton
As I recall you and others were ready to declare the Obama presidency a failure only 9 months in, so I am not sure how much credibility you have on this.
| 135 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:45:01am |
re: #134 PT Barnum
As I recall you and others were ready to declare the Obama presidency a failure only 9 months in, so I am not sure how much credibility you have on this.
I was ready to call it a failure on the day he was elected.
| 136 |
sagehen Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:45:03am |
re: #91 bagua
What partisan tripe. Who cares why a few terrorists commit suicide? Let them all rot in hell. Scott Horton is a traitor.
The terrorists are already far better treated than they deserve and every effort is made to prevent them from committing more crimes like these suicides, so they found a 'loop hole' good for them, three less terrorists for the leftists to weep over.
You didn't actually read the article, did you? There's good reason to believe the "suicides" were anything but.
And for that matter, what makes you so certain they were terrorists?
My state, and I presume yours as well, has a bunch of murderers in prison. How do we know they're murderers? Because trials were held. Evidence was presented. Testimony was heard. Verdicts were rendered. The same cannot be said of the Gitmo detainees.
| 138 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:45:12am |
re: #130 sattv4u2
Except that without comparing Obama's to other presidencies, that metric is useless.
| 139 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:45:32am |
re: #135 Walter L. Newton
I was ready to call it a failure on the day he was elected.
And so far, he's right on target.
| 140 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:45:54am |
re: #133 sattv4u2
It's location alone "implies" that there would be an increase in security risks
Simply because we transfer a few more prisoners there, to add to the ones already there?
It'll have exactly the same security status it always did. One dependent upon events in Afghanistan, not on whether we have 150 vs 200 detainees. *
* I don't actually know how many are there.
We appear to agree that holding anyone at Bagram is a bad idea, so I don't really know what you want to argue at this point.
| 141 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:47:21am |
re: #128 albusteve
comparisons to Bush are old, tied, weak and especially irrelevant...carry on tho if it makes you feel better about BO
What? We we cackle at the phrase "honest politician" the same way we do "honest lawyer". I think a site like this should exist for every president. Data is only useful if we compare apples to apples and not to oranges.
Not to mention you have to bare in mind, how many of those promises were broken or compromised because while Obama wanted to do them the congress wasn't up for it.
Do we blame a president for going back on his word when his desires are thwarted by the legislative branch of the government?
| 142 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:47:48am |
re: #139 Walter L. Newton
So in other words, you were never going to give him a chance to prove you wrong? Pretty much confirms what I already suspected.
| 143 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:48:46am |
re: #138 PT Barnum
Except that without comparing Obama's to other presidencies, that metric is useless.
Are you telling me that the Obama administration can't be held to it's own effectiveness? You mean, we have to compare it to another administration?
That would be like your boss saying to you "well, we found out that you lost 100,000 dollars for our company, but since the last guy in this position lost 120,000 thousand dollars, we are going to let you keep your job because he was more incompetent than you."
Right, move on over to the real world with the rest of us. If Obama is a srewup, it doesn't matter what any other administration has done or not done.
| 144 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:48:52am |
re: #138 PT Barnum
Except that without comparing Obama's to other presidencies, that metric is useless.
Thank you, I have but one upding to give for your well reasoned point.
| 145 |
Blueheron Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:50:14am |
re: #141 jamesfirecat
What? We we cackle at the phrase "honest politician" the same way we do "honest lawyer". I think a site like this should exist for every president. Data is only useful if we compare apples to apples and not to oranges.
Not to mention you have to bare in mind, how many of those promises were broken or compromised because while Obama wanted to do them the congress wasn't up for it.
Do we blame a president for going back on his word when his desires are thwarted by the legislative branch of the government?
Comprised entirely of a majority of those from his own party?
Well yeah!
| 146 |
sagehen Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:50:24am |
re: #128 albusteve
comparisons to Bush are old, tied, weak and especially irrelevant...carry on tho if it makes you feel better about BO
Yes, because history starts anew the day a new president is inaugurated. And policies put in place by the previous administration magically evaporate, and need never be mentioned again.
| 147 |
Obdicut Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:51:12am |
re: #126 Walter L. Newton
No, Walter, I meant your statement that:
I'm incensed that we have a man in the white house that has not accomplished anything he promise.
Which is silly hyperbole.
| 148 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:51:55am |
re: #145 Blueheron
Comprised entirely of a majority of those from his own party?
Well yeah!
Parties are suppose to be big tents and the President can't force people to vote for what he wants, and remember part of Obama's "supermajority" in the senate included a man who actively campaigned against him.
Obama can cajole, give impressive speeches, ecetra, ecetra, but its not the presidents job or place to force the congress to give him what he wants.
| 149 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:52:42am |
re: #140 iceweasel
Bagram has been and continues to be a target of attacks from (wait for it) LOCALS
I don;t recall many/any Cubans attacking GITMO!
Now, make public that Bagram is the "new Gitmo" (your words) and the attempts will increase
| 150 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:52:47am |
re: #142 PT Barnum
So in other words, you were never going to give him a chance to prove you wrong? Pretty much confirms what I already suspected.
He's had the chance. Did I stop him from doing anything? Of course not. Once again, you progressives cannot take responsibility for your own party, your own politicians, you own mistakes.
It doesn't matter one whit if I give him any chances. All I have to do is sit back and see how he does. What I hope he does, what I don't want to see him do, none of that matters.
What does matter is the actual facts. I can't change them, I can't hide them, I can't lie about them, the facts are there for all to see and respond to.
Obama has given himself all the chances he needs, and so far, the facts speak for him, I don't speak for him.
| 151 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:52:48am |
re: #143 Walter L. Newton
So what metric would you use for accomplishments and how many should have been done in the first year? Whether or not you agree with them is not the issue. How would you otherwise define success or failure?
| 152 |
Blueheron Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:53:24am |
re: #148 jamesfirecat
Parties are suppose to be big tents and the President can't force people to vote for what he wants, and remember part of Obama's "supermajority" in the senate included a man who actively campaigned against him.
Obama can cajole, give impressive speeches, ecetra, ecetra, but its not the presidents job or place to force the congress to give him what he wants.
Right. :/
| 153 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:53:38am |
| 154 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:54:32am |
re: #149 sattv4u2
Bagram has been and continues to be a target of attacks from (wait for it) LOCALS
I don;t recall many/any Cubans attacking GITMO!Now, make public that Bagram is the "new Gitmo" (your words) and the attempts will increase
It's been public since at least 2002. I linked you to a 2005 article about it. There are many more.
Just because you were unaware of it, doesn't mean it wasn't public.
I've also pointed out that calling it the 'new' Gitmo is misleading, as it was always the 'other Gitmo'.
| 155 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:54:44am |
re: #150 Walter L. Newton
No, but you seem bound and determined to run the "facts" through your own prism without considering that others may be looking at it from a different perspective.
Being opinionated is one thing, we're all opinionated or we wouldn't be here. Being arrogant is quite another.
| 156 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:55:17am |
re: #150 Walter L. Newton
He's had the chance. Did I stop him from doing anything? Of course not. Once again, you progressives cannot take responsibility for your own party, your own politicians, you own mistakes.
It doesn't matter one whit if I give him any chances. All I have to do is sit back and see how he does. What I hope he does, what I don't want to see him do, none of that matters.
What does matter is the actual facts. I can't change them, I can't hide them, I can't lie about them, the facts are there for all to see and respond to.
Obama has given himself all the chances he needs, and so far, the facts speak for him, I don't speak for him.
What would Obama have needed to do to impress you/ make you consider his presidency a success?
| 157 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:56:10am |
re: #151 PT Barnum
So what metric would you use for accomplishments and how many should have been done in the first year? Whether or not you agree with them is not the issue. How would you otherwise define success or failure?
Obama is his own metric. Accept it. Stop blaming it on Bush, stop blaming it on the right wing nuts, stop making excuses. in short, stop whining like a baby. Embrace the hope and change, or what little there is of it. Stop trying to place the blame on everyone else's head, you yourself admitted you are not happy with what he has accomplished. Who's fault is that, mine, Bush, someone else?
| 158 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:56:49am |
re: #155 PT Barnum
No, but you seem bound and determined to run the "facts" through your own prism without considering that others may be looking at it from a different perspective.
Being opinionated is one thing, we're all opinionated or we wouldn't be here. Being arrogant is quite another.
Tough shit, did I hurt you little feelings. Goodness, are we dealing with adults here?
| 159 |
koedo Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:56:52am |
The metric I hold Obama up to is his own words and promises. Yes, he can encounter resistance but in the end 'the buck stops with him'.
However, I do believe one year is a very short time on the national level.
| 160 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:57:28am |
re: #157 Walter L. Newton
You didn't answer my question. What objective metric would you use to consider whether or not Obama was a success or failure?
| 161 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:57:46am |
re: #154 iceweasel
Just because you were unaware of it
Nice try
It was me upthread that answered where/what Bagram is
And if you don't think that closing GITMO and sending how many ever detainees there are to Bagram won't increase the resolve of the local Taliban and Al Q to cause harm there, theres nothing more for us to discuss
| 162 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:58:26am |
re: #158 Walter L. Newton
Walter, I don't care if you are arrogant, it makes no difference to me at all. I would think you might want people to take you seriously though.
| 163 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:58:28am |
re: #156 jamesfirecat
What would Obama have needed to do to impress you/ make you consider his presidency a success?
I am not the gauge of whether he is accomplishing what his supporters want. He is, stop trying to place the blame for what he has done or not doing on me or anyone else. The facts speak for themselves.
| 164 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:58:53am |
re: #161 sattv4u2
Just because you were unaware of it
Nice try
It was me upthread that answered where/what Bagram is
And if you don't think that closing GITMO and sending how many ever detainees there are to Bagram won't increase the resolve of the local Taliban and Al Q to cause harm there, theres nothing more for us to discuss
Isn't that why we were planning to send them to a Supermax in Thompson Illinois instead?
| 165 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:59:03am |
re: #159 koedo
The metric I hold Obama up to is his own words and promises. Yes, he can encounter resistance but in the end 'the buck stops with him'.
However, I do believe one year is a very short time on the national level.
I think it would be too short to judge any admin on, even if it hadn't been this particular year when there were many severe problems to tackle all at once.
2008 was going to be a rough year for any admin to tackle.
| 166 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:59:22am |
re: #163 Walter L. Newton
If you are not the gauge of whether he is a success or failure, then shut up about it already, and let the man do his job.
| 167 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 9:59:52am |
re: #165 iceweasel
I think it would be too short to judge any admin on, even if it hadn't been this particular year when there were many severe problems to tackle all at once.
2008 was going to be a rough year for any admin to tackle.
2009, that is. Given the economic collapse starting in 2008, etc.
| 168 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:00:29am |
re: #159 koedo
I think the promises made versus promises kept is a good metric to use. But I think having something to compare it to wold be useful as well.
| 169 |
koedo Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:01:01am |
re: 165
I agree, no matter who won the White House, 2008 was for all practical purposes a very troublesome year regardless.
Based on the recent events in Massachusetts, I think it's clear people are not buying the 'Bush/Cheney did it' excuse anymore. People are now holding Obama and the Dems responsible.
| 170 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:01:20am |
re: #160 PT Barnum
You didn't answer my question. What objective metric would you use to consider whether or not Obama was a success or failure?
Ok, I'm sorry, I will. The metric I use, and I have used over and over during the last few months, is Obama supporters. They are my metric, the ones who voter for him, the ones who were expecting hope and change, in short, you are my metric, and you have defined his effectiveness... as you said yourself above...
"I at least have a sense that you are as dissappointed as I am"
There's your answer, look in a mirror.
| 171 |
Blueheron Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:01:20am |
re: #156 jamesfirecat
What would Obama have needed to do to impress you/ make you consider his presidency a success?
I know this is Walter you are addressing but
I would have liked to see the health issues televised on CSPAN as he promised. Of course he couldn't make the Congress live up to that but none the less he said it numerous times on the campaign trail. Was he lying to us?
I would have liked him to be more responsive to the people who attended town halls rather than dismissing them. You know red state, blue state we are all Americans? What happened to that?
Now he wants to compromise with Republicans. :x
| 172 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:01:23am |
re: #166 PT Barnum
If you are not the gauge of whether he is a success or failure, then shut up about it already, and let the man do his job.
{sigh}
You're really earning the downdings today!
| 174 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:01:42am |
| 175 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:01:45am |
instead of a giant, costly, destined to fail Stimulus bill...BO should have slashed every tax he could think of...corporate, payrole, gains...everyone of them, to get as much cash back into the pockets of the people...real money...he didn't, he fucked up bigtime...this economic problem should be over now...
| 176 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:02:14am |
re: #94 PT Barnum
Have trouble knawing through the leather straps this morning?
I see you are having no trouble being an insulting asshole this morning.
| 177 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:02:21am |
re: #164 jamesfirecat
Isn't that why we were planning to send them to a Supermax in Thompson Illinois instead?
No, I think that was to remove the complaints about habeas issues and also just the whole stink surrounding holding them outside the US.
The reality is that we do have people in custody who can't be let go and can't be brought to trial, even a military one. So even if the supermax plan had gone through, we were always planning (or rather, Obama was) to send some detainees to a place like Bagram.
| 179 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:03:58am |
re: #176 Bagua
I see you are having no trouble being an insulting asshole this morning.
That's all they have left after Tuesday. Did you watch Chrissy Matthews, insult after insult, that what passes for acceptable journalism. I'm taking my lead from them. If I can be as much an asshole as Chrissy, I may be able to get a high paying job as a MSM reporter.
Ha :)
| 180 |
Sharmuta Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:04:09am |
Questions Raised Over 3 Gitmo Detainee Suicides
The month after the Obama administration took office, according to the magazine, a father-son legal team that had been in contact with Hickman met in Washington, D.C., with two Justice Department lawyers and related what Hickman said he had seen the night of the three detainees' deaths. That led to a meeting between Hickman and Teresa McHenry, head of the criminal division's domestic security section at the Justice Department, who told Hickman's lawyers that she was heading up an inquiry, Harper's reported.
Two and one half months ago, McHenry called one of Hickman's lawyers, Mark Denbeaux, and said that the Justice Department was closing the inquiry.
"The department took this matter very seriously," Justice Department spokesperson Laura Sweeney said in response to the Harper's article. "A number of department attorneys extensively and thoroughly reviewed the allegations and found no evidence of wrongdoing."
Surely the Obama Administration wouldn't lie to me, so I have no reason to think there is anything to this story.
| 181 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:04:25am |
re: #170 Walter L. Newton
Ok, I'm sorry, I will. The metric I use, and I have used over and over during the last few months, is Obama supporters. They are my metric, the ones who voter for him, the ones who were expecting hope and change, in short, you are my metric, and you have defined his effectiveness... as you said yourself above...
"I at least have a sense that you are as dissappointed as I am"
There's your answer, look in a mirror.
So if we all start acting happy about Obama around you then you'll have to admit his presidency is a success?
| 184 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:05:58am |
re: #171 Blueheron
I know this is Walter you are addressing but
I would have liked to see the health issues televised on CSPAN as he promised. Of course he couldn't make the Congress live up to that but none the less he said it numerous times on the campaign trail. Was he lying to us?I would have liked him to be more responsive to the people who attended town halls rather than dismissing them. You know red state, blue state we are all Americans? What happened to that?
Now he wants to compromise with Republicans. :x
What I want to know is whose choice is it if it ends up being televised on CSPAN or not, and why did they make the choice they did?
I'm not saying it excuses Obama making a promise he couldn't live up to, but it might help put things in context...
| 185 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:06:24am |
re: #181 jamesfirecat
So if we all start acting happy about Obama around you then you'll have to admit his presidency is a success?
he's accomplished nothing...so far he has been an abject failure...even his supporters admit it....if you don't think so that's cool, but there is an unhealthy disconnect there
| 186 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:06:29am |
re: #161 sattv4u2
Just because you were unaware of it
Nice try
It was me upthread that answered where/what Bagram is
And if you don't think that closing GITMO and sending how many ever detainees there are to Bagram won't increase the resolve of the local Taliban and Al Q to cause harm there, theres nothing more for us to discuss
I'd agree that there's nothing more to discuss. You clearly did not know that Bagram has always been the other gitmo, and you're resolved to pick some sort of fight over sending detainees there, even though I've already made clear that we seem to agree we shouldn't be holding any there.
So I'd agree that there's nothing more to discuss.
| 187 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:07:04am |
re: #112 Walter L. Newton
I love it how the progressives are ready to suck it up and make believe it's not as bad as it is, when the evidence is so evident that there is no way for you to ignore it anymore.
We appear to be reaching agreement on a term. 'Progressives'. OK, I can work with that.
| 188 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:08:12am |
re: #185 albusteve
he's accomplished nothing...so far he has been an abject failure...even his supporters admit it...if you don't think so that's cool, but there is an unhealthy disconnect there
I was commenting on how Walter seems to have no opinion himself on if Obama is doing good or bad, and no desire to form a personal opinion.
I admire his Switzerland like neutrality on the issue.
| 189 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:08:20am |
re: #181 jamesfirecat
So if we all start acting happy about Obama around you then you'll have to admit his presidency is a success?
Since he was dutifully elected by a majority of the eligible voters, and it is his supporters who are the real metric, yes, if I saw some indication from the progressives here that they have something positive with what he is doing, then that would indicate to me that he is doing what he promised.
But as PT Barnum and others have proven over and over during the last few months, his supporters are not satisfied. And polling have shown that too. And as a conservative, what does that say to me?
| 190 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:09:22am |
re: #183 PT Barnum
Not a chance.
You're the one that said "I at least have a sense that you are as dissappointed as I am"
Are you lying. You're my metric, I hope my metric is not lying?
| 191 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:09:32am |
re: #186 iceweasel
I'd agree that there's nothing more to discuss. You clearly did not know that Bagram has always been the other gitmo, and you're resolved to pick some sort of fight over sending detainees there, even though I've already made clear that we seem to agree we shouldn't be holding any there.
So I'd agree that there's nothing more to discuss.
And you are clearly incorrect
Now make sure you get the last word in on this!
| 192 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:10:13am |
re: #188 jamesfirecat
I was commenting on how Walter seems to have no opinion himself on if Obama is doing good or bad, and no desire to form a personal opinion.
I admire his Switzerland like neutrality on the issue.
And I don't admire how you can't admit to the truth. At least PT Barnum was honest enough to state "I at least have a sense that you are as dissappointed as I am"
Is he lying?
| 193 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:10:18am |
re: #95 jamesfirecat
Did you read how the story about how they killed themselves? It seems to paint a pretty difficult picture to swallow.
Nope, I don't care. That is the point of my comment. If there was some violation of military law, let the military investigate it and hand out a reprimand. A few dead terrorists don't even register on my give a damn meter.
Terrorists are trying to blow up aircraft and leftist bleeding hearts are still agonising over the alleged "rights" of the few murdering bastards we have been lucky enough to capture.
| 194 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:10:24am |
I think threads about torture are going to be just like the history of posts here about teabaggers: whole lot of resistance by some to recognising a problem.
| 195 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:11:16am |
re: #194 iceweasel
I think threads about torture are going to be just like the history of posts here about teabaggers: whole lot of resistance by some to recognising a problem.
I hate torture and I am totally against it. I hope the Obama Justice Department is not covering this up for some reason.
| 196 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:11:41am |
re: #190 Walter L. Newton
I simply stated that if I very much doubted that you would truly consider Obama a success if his supporters did.
I don't consider him a failure. Disappointment is not the same as surrender.
| 197 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:11:55am |
re: #189 Walter L. Newton
Since he was dutifully elected by a majority of the eligible voters, and it is his supporters who are the real metric, yes, if I saw some indication from the progressives here that they have something positive with what he is doing, then that would indicate to me that he is doing what he promised.
But as PT Barnum and others have proven over and over during the last few months, his supporters are not satisfied. And polling have shown that too. And as a conservative, what does that say to me?
I'd say as a conservative you shouldn't judge the democratic party by conservative metrics. Democrats are a lot more likely to be fractious than conservatives, because we believe in going somewhere rather than staying put, and not everyone can agree on the destination.
Simply put, democrats are a lot like cats, and republicans are like dogs.
[Link: www.strangecosmos.com...]
| 198 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:12:48am |
re: #169 koedo
re: 165
I agree, no matter who won the White House, 2008 was for all practical purposes a very troublesome year regardless.
Based on the recent events in Massachusetts, I think it's clear people are not buying the 'Bush/Cheney did it' excuse anymore. People are now holding Obama and the Dems responsible.
That's a reasonable shift at this point.
| 200 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:13:26am |
re: #192 Walter L. Newton
And I don't admire how you can't admit to the truth. At least PT Barnum was honest enough to state "I at least have a sense that you are as dissappointed as I am"
Is he lying?
Well if you're only reflecting what you see back at us then by nature you'd be as dissapointed as he is.
| 201 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:13:29am |
re: #195 Walter L. Newton
I hate torture and I am totally against it. I hope the Obama Justice Department is not covering this up for some reason.
As do I.
| 202 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:14:44am |
re: #196 PT Barnum
I simply stated that if I very much doubted that you would truly consider Obama a success if his supporters did.
I don't consider him a failure. Disappointment is not the same as surrender.
Ok, reading is comprehension, pay close attention. I would consider him successful with his supporters and would admit to his success. Evidently he is not, as you so well put it... "I at least have a sense that you are as dissappointed as I am."
I consider his Afghan strategy as successful so far.
| 203 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:16:01am |
re: #197 jamesfirecat
I'd say as a conservative you shouldn't judge the democratic party by conservative metrics. Democrats are a lot more likely to be fractious than conservatives, because we believe in going somewhere rather than staying put, and not everyone can agree on the destination.
Simply put, democrats are a lot like cats, and republicans are like dogs.
[Link: www.strangecosmos.com...]
I'm not... I'm judging it by what the left is saying, folks like PT Barnum... "I at least have a sense that you are as dissappointed as I am"
Stop trying to ignore what he said.
| 204 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:17:11am |
re: #196 PT Barnum
I simply stated that if I very much doubted that you would truly consider Obama a success if his supporters did.
I don't consider him a failure. Disappointment is not the same as surrender.
BO has allowed the economy to melt down far beyond thr initial drop...he has taken Bush's deficits, which he railed against in his campaign and quadrupled them...he flat out lied....his socialistic method of taking money out of the economy (money earned by workers creating wealth and paying taxes) and spending it to create an even larger more intrusive govt will not improve the economy....you cannot stimulate by subtraction and any ninny can see this....his lust for more and bigger govt has killed any chance for a reasonable rebound...it's not stupidity, it's intentional
| 205 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:17:31am |
re: #197 jamesfirecat
Simply put, democrats are a lot like cats, and republicans are like dogs.[Link: www.strangecosmos.com...]
That cartoon is hilarious. Bookmarked!
| 206 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:17:35am |
re: #178 PT Barnum
I apologized upthread for that.
I see that now, thanks, if it was meant as humour then I appologise for my come-back.
Now, don't let me interrupt all the weeping and moaning over the fate of a few terrorist scumbags. Carry on.
Were their Miranda rights read to them? Did they have frosting on their birthday cakes? Inquiring minds want to know.
Oh, and for the record, Lefty down-dings taste like candy. Yum!
| 207 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:17:47am |
re: #196 PT Barnum
I simply stated that if I very much doubted that you would truly consider Obama a success if his supporters did.
I don't consider him a failure. Disappointment is not the same as surrender.
Then what are you disappointed about in regards to the Obama administration. Educate me since you claim I don't understand what you mean or say, or how you feel about things.
| 208 |
Sharmuta Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:19:00am |
re: #195 Walter L. Newton
I hope the Obama Justice Department is not covering this up for some reason.
Why would they be? This would have happened on Bush's watch, so why protect Bush? Makes no sense, and therefore this has the potential for a nontroversy. The point was raised, it was reviewed, and nothing was found to be wrong. The end.
| 209 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:20:06am |
re: #208 Sharmuta
Why would they be? This would have happened on Bush's watch, so why protect Bush? Makes no sense, and therefore this has the potential for a nontroversy. The point was raised, it was reviewed, and nothing was found to be wrong. The end.
The reporter says there is something to this. I think the Obama administration should be all over this.
| 210 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:20:13am |
re: #202 Walter L. Newton
Fair enough. I think that's a reasonably nuanced point of view.
Frankly, I was prepared to vote for McCain until he chose Palin as his running mate. I voted for Obama because he appeared to be a thoughtful, pragmatic leader who would not shoot from the lip or the hip.
At the same time, I do want him to be less interested in bipartisanship and more interested in getting something done, regardless of whether anybody get their feelings hurt. Not sure that's possible when both aisles of congress are more interested in gotcha.
| 211 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:20:40am |
re: #203 Walter L. Newton
I'm not... I'm judging it by what the left is saying, folks like PT Barnum... "I at least have a sense that you are as dissappointed as I am"
Stop trying to ignore what he said.
I'm saying that its perfectly natural for democrats to be dissapointed in any given democratic president, and it doesn't mean his Presidency is a failure. Democrats are a lot more likely to squabble amongst themselves then Republicans are...
| 212 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:20:43am |
re: #208 Sharmuta
Why would they be? This would have happened on Bush's watch, so why protect Bush? Makes no sense, and therefore this has the potential for a nontroversy. The point was raised, it was reviewed, and nothing was found to be wrong. The end.
And if it's a nontroversy, why are we discussing it?
| 213 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:20:48am |
re: #206 Bagua
I see that now, thanks, if it was meant as humour then I appologise for my come-back.
Now, don't let me interrupt all the weeping and moaning over the fate of a few terrorist scumbags. Carry on.
Were their Miranda rights read to them? Did they have frosting on their birthday cakes? Inquiring minds want to know.
Oh, and for the record, Lefty down-dings taste like candy. Yum!
It's simply false to assert that people who are concerned about the rule of law, civil liberties violations, and torture are 'weeping and moaning' about terrorists, or that their concern is for the terrorists.
The concern is for American values, and upholding them.
| 214 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:22:19am |
re: #212 Walter L. Newton
And if it's a nontroversy, why are we discussing it?
That's like the question of Seinfeld isn't it?
"If nothing is happening on the show why am I watching it?"
"Because its on TV!"
| 215 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:22:33am |
re: #210 PT Barnum
Fair enough. I think that's a reasonably nuanced point of view.
Frankly, I was prepared to vote for McCain until he chose Palin as his running mate. I voted for Obama because he appeared to be a thoughtful, pragmatic leader who would not shoot from the lip or the hip.
At the same time, I do want him to be less interested in bipartisanship and more interested in getting something done, regardless of whether anybody gets their feelings hurt. Not sure that's possible when both aisles of congress are more interested in gotcha.
PIMF
| 216 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:25:12am |
re: #211 jamesfirecat
I'm saying that its perfectly natural for democrats to be dissapointed in any given democratic president, and it doesn't mean his Presidency is a failure. Democrats are a lot more likely to squabble amongst themselves then Republicans are...
he's wrecking the economy...the economy belongs to the people...the govt serves the people, not the other way around...he's ripping you off and even ripping off your children...epic fail imo...if you don't have a problem with this fine...but take your head out of your ass and quit pretending there is little justification to consider BO a failure....there is no such thing as OBS....his actions speak for themselves....if yu want to bend over and feed the beast so be it...I don't and I won't
| 217 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:25:27am |
re: #208 Sharmuta
Why would they be? This would have happened on Bush's watch, so why protect Bush? Makes no sense, and therefore this has the potential for a nontroversy. The point was raised, it was reviewed, and nothing was found to be wrong. The end.
Agreed! One big fat nontroversy.
| 218 |
Sharmuta Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:26:15am |
re: #212 Walter L. Newton
And if it's a nontroversy, why are we discussing it?
If it was reviewed extensively, and no wrong-doing was found, then I wonder if this isn't becoming a conspiracy theory for far-side wingers of whatever flavor.
I don't think Obama would cover up Bush misdeeds, so I think it's a non-story, but that's just me.
| 219 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:26:16am |
re: #211 jamesfirecat
I'm saying that its perfectly natural for democrats to be dissapointed in any given democratic president, and it doesn't mean his Presidency is a failure. Democrats are a lot more likely to squabble amongst themselves then Republicans are...
And that means what? The fact of the matter is, he is a disappointment many of his own supporters. Listen to Thom Hartman, listen to Chris Matthews, listen to Ed Shultz, read Huffington, read Kos, pay attention.
These are all people and places that 9 months ago were treating Obama like the second coming. The polls were all shooting favorably through the roof.
And now, when there is evidently problems (and I will say it again, the metric I use is his supporters, you, PT Barnum)... you wiggle and squirm trying to balme it on how I feel, what I think or even if I care or not.
It's yours Ranger, embrace it and deal with it, no one is going to hold you little hand, you're on your own.
| 220 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:27:05am |
re: #218 Sharmuta
If it was reviewed extensively, and no wrong-doing was found, then I wonder if this isn't becoming a conspiracy theory for far-side wingers of whatever flavor.
I don't think Obama would cover up Bush misdeeds, so I think it's a non-story, but that's just me.
and me
| 221 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:27:57am |
re: #214 jamesfirecat
That's like the question of Seinfeld isn't it?
"If nothing is happening on the show why am I watching it?"
"Because its on TV!"
I never watch Seinfeld. I don't like self-serving self-obsessed people, and that's all that the show was about. Boring. I can see that at any Democratic caucus.
| 223 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:28:43am |
re: #219 Walter L. Newton
As I said earlier, being disappointed in some one is not the same as considering them an abject failure.
The fact that you want to exaggerate disappointment among Obama's supporters to the level of disdain you obviously have is telling.
| 225 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:29:58am |
re: #223 PT Barnum
As I said earlier, being disappointed in some one is not the same as considering them an abject failure.
The fact that you want to exaggerate disappointment among Obama's supporters to the level of disdain you obviously have is telling.
Yes, telling of Walter's good judgement.
| 226 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:31:21am |
re: #223 PT Barnum
As I said earlier, being disappointed in some one is not the same as considering them an abject failure.
The fact that you want to exaggerate disappointment among Obama's supporters to the level of disdain you obviously have is telling.
No, it's the truth. You need to get out more, listen to what your progressive are say... for a matter of fact, start with progressive talk show host Thom Hartmann, he's even suggest that the progressive need to link up with the tea party people since they are all closer in ideology than the rest of the left party. Thom Hartmann like Tom Buchannan, and no, he's not fringe, he is mainstream Air America.
You are isolated, get out, spread your wings, get back to me when you investigate a little.
| 227 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:31:48am |
re: #216 albusteve
he's wrecking the economy...the economy belongs to the people...the govt serves the people, not the other way around...he's ripping you off and even ripping off your children...epic fail imo...if you don't have a problem with this fine...but take your head out of your ass and quit pretending there is little justification to consider BO a failure...there is no such thing as OBS...his actions speak for themselves...if yu want to bend over and feed the beast so be it...I don't and I won't
Yes because a spending freeze in the face of an economic down turn makes tons of sense!
| 228 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:32:09am |
re: #225 Bagua
Yes, telling of Walter's good judgement.
Thank you for that. That will be a nice comment to take to work in a few minutes.
| 229 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:32:24am |
Some more old news, no doubt new to some:
General who probed Abu Ghraib says Bush officials committed war crimes
"After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes," Taguba wrote. "The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."
Must be another filthy hippie. Or not.
| 230 |
Sharmuta Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:32:35am |
re: #228 Walter L. Newton
Have a great day at work, Walter. :)
| 231 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:33:17am |
re: #227 jamesfirecat
Yes because a spending freeze in the face of an economic down turn makes tons of sense!
Try this at home
"Honey, we owe VISA $5,000 and we only have $100 in the bank. Lets say we go out and buy 3 big screen HD TV's and a new car!"
| 232 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:33:17am |
re: #223 PT Barnum
As I said earlier, being disappointed in some one is not the same as considering them an abject failure.
The fact that you want to exaggerate disappointment among Obama's supporters to the level of disdain you obviously have is telling.
you split alot of hair and nuance the hell out of everything....where are the jobs?...why is unemployment leveling off at 10%?...why are we supporting the oil ticks?...where is your green revolution and who is going to finance it?...why does BO kiss Putins ass?....where is the beef?
| 233 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:33:25am |
re: #227 jamesfirecat
Yes because a spending freeze in the face of an economic down turn makes tons of sense!
When it's spending the tax payers money by the government, exactly. Please, don't start with economics. You proved yesterday that you don't know shit about it.
| 234 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:33:43am |
re: #228 Walter L. Newton
Thank you for that. That will be a nice comment to take to work in a few minutes.
Thsi your 'long" week?
| 235 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:33:44am |
| 236 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:34:07am |
| 237 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:34:12am |
| 238 |
Sharmuta Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:34:21am |
re: #235 Walter L. Newton
Yes. Best of luck to you, always.
| 239 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:34:59am |
re: #227 jamesfirecat
Yes because a spending freeze in the face of an economic down turn makes tons of sense!
who said anything about a freeze?
| 240 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:35:39am |
re: #229 iceweasel
LOL, McClatchy, Harper's, Rolling Stone.... let's leave no stone unturned in exposing the very, very, very bad Bush.
Do you ever tire of your attempts to slander the US Military and President Bush?
| 241 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:35:47am |
re: #234 sattv4u2
Thsi your 'long" week?
My weeks are never longer than 5 working days, it's just the way the week is situated... here it is.. Mon-Fri then Sat./Sun./Mon. off, then Tue.-Sat. then Sun. off... rinse... repeat. It's a two week schedule with one day off then three days off, this is my one day off week, this Sun.
| 242 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:36:20am |
re: #232 albusteve
We were just on the verge of a second Great Depression which appears to have been averted. You expect everything to happen immediately?
Jesus, I swear the conservatives had greater expectations of Obama than the progressives ever did.
| 243 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:36:32am |
re: #240 Bagua
LOL, McClatchy, Harper's, Rolling Stone... let's leave no stone unturned in exposing the very, very, very bad Bush.
Do you ever tire of your attempts to slander the US Military and President Bush?
I'm not slandering anyone, Bagua.
You can find Taguba's remarks in lots of places, should you care to.
| 244 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:36:32am |
re: #219 Walter L. Newton
And that means what? The fact of the matter is, he is a disappointment many of his own supporters. Listen to Thom Hartman, listen to Chris Matthews, listen to Ed Shultz, read Huffington, read Kos, pay attention.
These are all people and places that 9 months ago were treating Obama like the second coming. The polls were all shooting favorably through the roof.
And now, when there is evidently problems (and I will say it again, the metric I use is his supporters, you, PT Barnum)... you wiggle and squirm trying to balme it on how I feel, what I think or even if I care or not.
It's yours Ranger, embrace it and deal with it, no one is going to hold you little hand, you're on your own.
Personally I think the Daily Show covered why the things you talked about happened quite well recently last night.
People have discovered that "Obama isn't magic" and that Morgan Freeman isn't going to be running for President any time soon, of course they feel let down, they thought he'd somehow be able to make racism vanish with a wave of his hand, then do the same thing to unemployment and the wars we're involved in.
Its the nature of the democratic beast that it turns on itself, because we're a party based on progress but everybody has a different definition of progress while its a lot easier to agree on a common definition of things "staying the same" as conservatives tend to hope to achieve.
I don't consider Obama's presidency a failure even if I am disapointed in him. If you want to feel its a failure because of how I feel then I suppose that's your prerogative.
| 245 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:36:52am |
re: #232 albusteve
you split alot of hair and nuance the hell out of everything...where are the jobs?...why is unemployment leveling off at 10%?...why are we supporting the oil ticks?...where is your green revolution and who is going to finance it?...why does BO kiss Putins ass?...where is the beef?
Bush's fault... didn't you know?
| 246 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:36:56am |
re: #231 sattv4u2
Try this at home
"Honey, we owe VISA $5,000 and we only have $100 in the bank. Lets say we go out and buy 3 big screen HD TV's and a new car!"
Do you know the difference between macro and micro economics?
| 247 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:36:57am |
re: #241 Walter L. Newton
My weeks are never longer than 5 working days, it's just the way the week is situated... here it is.. Mon-Fri then Sat./Sun./Mon. off, then Tue.-Sat. then Sun. off... rinse... repeat. It's a two week schedule with one day off then three days off, this is my one day off week, this Sun.
Got it
Well ,,, be well and stay safe. Did you see HOOSIER upthread? Says he may have a job lead for you
| 248 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:37:10am |
re: #235 Walter L. Newton
You know I quit the live theatre?
not here you haven't!....break a leg!...actually that's a bit sad
| 249 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:38:06am |
re: #246 jamesfirecat
Do you know the difference between macro and micro economics?
Do you know the difference between profit and profit margin?
Do you know the difference betwen pre and post EBITDA!?!?!
| 250 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:38:49am |
re: #242 PT Barnum
We were just on the verge of a second Great Depression which appears to have been averted. You expect everything to happen immediately?
Jesus, I swear the conservatives had greater expectations of Obama than the progressives ever did.
good grief...and the moon is made out of green cheese
| 251 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:39:25am |
re: #244 jamesfirecat
Personally I think the Daily Show covered why the things you talked about happened quite well recently last night.
People have discovered that "Obama isn't magic" and that Morgan Freeman isn't going to be running for President any time soon, of course they feel let down, they thought he'd somehow be able to make racism vanish with a wave of his hand, then do the same thing to unemployment and the wars we're involved in.
Its the nature of the democratic beast that it turns on itself, because we're a party based on progress but everybody has a different definition of progress while its a lot easier to agree on a common definition of things "staying the same" as conservatives tend to hope to achieve.
I don't consider Obama's presidency a failure even if I am disapointed in him. If you want to feel its a failure because of how I feel then I suppose that's your prerogative.
Ding, ding ding, you finally figured it out...
Wait, wait, wait... one point... Obama promised unemployment would be at 7 percent or something like that by now... I guess this is a set back, not a failure. You don't think he failed in that promise... yes... no.
| 252 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:39:30am |
re: #243 iceweasel
I'm not slandering anyone, Bagua.
You can find Taguba's remarks in lots of places, should you care to.
Sure you are. On every similar thread you link to garbage alleging that President Bush and the US Military are criminals. It's disgusting.
President Bush is a great man and the US military is highly moral and deserving of respect, not these constant dirty attacks.
| 253 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:40:25am |
the Second Great Depression!....90% of which is brought to you by the Democratic Party!...free money!....get yer free money here!
| 254 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:40:51am |
re: #239 albusteve
who said anything about a freeze?
Lets see John McCain did
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
(check the transcript for the phrase)
House Republicans...
[Link: washingtonindependent.com...]
| 255 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:41:22am |
re: #252 Bagua
Sure you are. On every similar thread you link to garbage alleging that President Bush and the US Military are criminals. It's disgusting.
President Bush is a great man and the US military is highly moral and deserving of respect, not these constant dirty attacks.
Rubbish. The 'garbage' I've linked is from, among other places, those well-known 'military haters' such as the CIA and the DOD.
You just don't want the facts.
| 257 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:42:35am |
re: #253 albusteve
Uh..no..the..it was brought on by roughly the same things as the first one, lack of oversight and irresponsible speculation.
| 258 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:42:41am |
re: #248 albusteve
not here you haven't!...break a leg!...actually that's a bit sad
Not sad when I see my paycheck. 2 1/2 times what I was making at the theatre. And I work much harder for it. Some people don't understand that working really hard makes one feel really good, at least it makes me feel really good. I'm 57, and this job is more physical than anything I have ever done, even as a teen.
But it's good for me, I feel good about it. And I'm also helping disabled citizens all over my area, the money stays in Colorado, that's the was ARC works, the money stays in each state, doesn't go to some mother corporation where is disappears.
| 259 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:43:02am |
I gotta go earn a living..have fun...
| 261 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:44:21am |
re: #255 iceweasel
Rubbish. The 'garbage' I've linked is from, among other places, those well-known 'military haters' such as the CIA and the DOD.
You just don't want the facts.
Facts? Your 'facts' are a load of anti-Bush anti-military hogwash. You have a vendetta against President Bush and the United States Military. Own it. I've seen dozens of examples over months.
You hate Bush, you hate the US military, I get it. Boring.
| 262 |
sagehen Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:44:53am |
re: #216 albusteve
he's wrecking the economy...the economy belongs to the people...the govt serves the people, not the other way around...he's ripping you off and even ripping off your children...epic fail imo...if you don't have a problem with this fine...but take your head out of your ass and quit pretending there is little justification to consider BO a failure...there is no such thing as OBS...his actions speak for themselves...if yu want to bend over and feed the beast so be it...I don't and I won't
The economy was a wreck before he took office; we were on the verge of complete global meltdown.
Since he took office, the stock market is up by more than 30%.
And while unemployment is still pretty awful, it's turned the corner.
There's grounds to complain that he's not fixing the economy as quickly as we think should have been possible, but it's revisionism of the first degree to claim he's the one who wrecked it.
| 263 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:45:10am |
re: #260 iceweasel
later! *waves* Have a good day.
Ummm,, you DO know that he really can't see you *wave*, dontchya !?!?!
/
| 264 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:45:29am |
re: #258 Walter L. Newton
Not sad when I see my paycheck. 2 1/2 times what I was making at the theatre. And I work much harder for it. Some people don't understand that working really hard makes one feel really good, at least it makes me feel really good. I'm 57, and this job is more physical than anything I have ever done, even as a teen.
But it's good for me, I feel good about it. And I'm also helping disabled citizens all over my area, the money stays in Colorado, that's the was ARC works, the money stays in each state, doesn't go to some mother corporation where is disappears.
good karma...maybe you can move up and run the joint someday, anyway it's always enjoyable when others are satified
| 265 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:45:35am |
| 266 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:45:53am |
| 267 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:46:35am |
re: #249 sattv4u2
Do you know the difference between profit and profit margin?
Do you know the difference betwen pre and post EBITDA!?!?!
The difference between profit and profit margin is that profit refers to how much money you're "making"
Profit margin is your net profit after taxes, divided by your revenue multiplied by 100%.
EBITDA Stands for Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortization. So I'm assuming that Pre is how much you have before you take into account how much money you've "lost" to those things.
Now once again, do you know why in Macro economics its a bad idea for the government not to spend during a financial crisis?
Besides look on the bright side as Dick Cheney once said "Reagan proved deficits don't matter" And who are you to doubt the wisdom of Regan?
| 268 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:46:59am |
re: #265 Walter L. Newton
Hi Ice, I didn't notice you here.
Hello, Walter. You here too, huh? Fancy that!
| 269 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:48:16am |
re: #262 sagehen
The economy was a wreck before he took office; we were on the verge of complete global meltdown.
Since he took office, the stock market is up by more than 30%.
And while unemployment is still pretty awful, it's turned the corner.
There's grounds to complain that he's not fixing the economy as quickly as we think should have been possible, but it's revisionism of the first degree to claim he's the one who wrecked it.
I do not deny any of that...yet his fix will leave us in debt nearly forever and the fact that he's growing govt especially pisses me off....look for 7.5-8% permanent unemployment
| 270 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:48:56am |
re: #251 Walter L. Newton
Ding, ding ding, you finally figured it out...
Wait, wait, wait... one point... Obama promised unemployment would be at 7 percent or something like that by now... I guess this is a set back, not a failure. You don't think he failed in that promise... yes... no.
I feel that he failed to live up to that promise yes.
By the same token the untied states is not a communist/fascist/whatever state when the government is directly run by the president, even if he's natonalized a few companies.
The government doesn't "set" the unemployment level the way they do the interest one.
I feel that Obama has failed to live up to his promise but I also feel that things like the stimulus prove that he is trying to make progress on the issue and so I cut the guy some slack and sit back to let him work it all out, it took FDR several terms to get us out of the Great Depression after all...
| 271 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:49:16am |
re: #262 sagehen
And while unemployment is still pretty awful, it's turned the corner.
ummm,, huh !?!?!
[Link: online.wsj.com...]
JANUARY 21, 2010, 11:10 A.M. ET.Jobless Claims Rise in Latest Week
| 272 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:49:23am |
re: #261 Bagua
Facts? Your 'facts' are a load of anti-Bush anti-military hogwash. You have a vendetta against President Bush and the United States Military. Own it. I've seen dozens of examples over months.
You hate Bush, you hate the US military, I get it. Boring.
Wrong. You hate admitting what happened under the Bush admin, and probably also some of what's continuing under the Obama admin w/r/t those policies.
So you've resolved to not look at any of the evidence about it.
That's cool. Killgore took abuse here for months over the tea parties. I'm content to accept I'll be taking abuse over this issue.
It isn't going to stop me.
| 273 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:49:50am |
re: #253 albusteve
the Second Great Depression!...90% of which is brought to you by the Democratic Party!...free money!...get yer free money here!
Um you do realize that the first Great Depression was a time of horrible deflation don't you? So maybe "free money" is just what this situation calls for...
| 274 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:49:58am |
re: #267 jamesfirecat
The difference between profit and profit margin is that profit refers to how much money you're "making"
Profit margin is your net profit after taxes, divided by your revenue multiplied by 100%.
EBITDA Stands for Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortization. So I'm assuming that Pre is how much you have before you take into account how much money you've "lost" to those things.
Now once again, do you know why in Macro economics its a bad idea for the government not to spend during a financial crisis?
Besides look on the bright side as Dick Cheney once said "Reagan proved deficits don't matter" And who are you to doubt the wisdom of Regan?
The man can GOOGLE!!
Congrats
| 275 |
Sharmuta Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:50:51am |
re: #266 albusteve
you da bomb
Thanks, Bish.
Well- enough kook fodder and strawmen arguments for me today. Have a great day, Lizards.
| 276 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:51:04am |
Dammit ,,, gotta go calibrate a transmistter!
BBL
| 277 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:51:17am |
re: #268 iceweasel
Hello, Walter. You here too, huh? Fancy that!
Yes, but leaving to get to work at the thrift store. Got a lot of used furniture and electronics to move. We have a 18 wheeler come in this afternoon, full of used furniture. For a matter of fact, we have one come on Tuesdays and Thursdays, the truck driver and helper brings it into the warehouse, and there is only one of us at one time to move it out to the sales floor, or move what we have room for. And this stuff can really pile up on a slow week.
| 278 |
andres Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:51:21am |
re: #269 albusteve
I do not deny any of that...yet his fix will leave us in debt nearly forever and the fact that he's growing govt especially pisses me off...look for 7.5-8% permanent unemployment
Where were you on 2001-2004? Oh yeah, cheering on Bush actions.
| 279 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:52:00am |
re: #272 iceweasel
It isn't going to stop me.
Of course not, you are a full time anti-Bush/Anti-US Military propagandist. Why ever would you stop? You obviously take great pleasure in this vile behaviour.
Have fun bashing Bush and the Military. But don't expect me to ignore it either.
| 280 |
cliffster Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:52:08am |
re: #275 Sharmuta
Thanks, Bish.
Well- enough kook fodder and strawmen arguments for me today. Have a great day, Lizards.
Seconded on the da bomb bit. That made me want to get stuff done. Have a good day yourself.
| 281 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:52:18am |
re: #277 Walter L. Newton
Yes, but leaving to get to work at the thrift store. Got a lot of used furniture and electronics to move. We have a 18 wheeler come in this afternoon, full of used furniture. For a matter of fact, we have one come on Tuesdays and Thursdays, the truck driver and helper brings it into the warehouse, and there is only one of us at one time to move it out to the sales floor, or move what we have room for. And this stuff can really pile up on a slow week.
Yikes. Good luck. Congrats again, btw on the new job.
| 282 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:52:36am |
re: #274 sattv4u2
The man can GOOGLE!!
Congrats
Hey you didn't want me to google you answers you shouldn't have asked me questions that I could get the answer to.
You still haven't answered my question about if you understand why the government not spending money when the market is down is a bad idea.
Or explained to me why the government not spending money in a market downturn is a good idea besides the penny ante example you gave of a single family, which doesn't make sense at all to compare to our government in economic terms...
| 283 |
sagehen Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:53:36am |
re: #231 sattv4u2
Try this at home
"Honey, we owe VISA $5,000 and we only have $100 in the bank. Lets say we go out and buy 3 big screen HD TV's and a new car!"
"Honey, the farm didn't bring in much this past season, so let's not buy any seeds or fertilizer this year; maybe we'll make enough to afford it next year."
| 284 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:53:40am |
re: #270 jamesfirecat
I feel that he failed to live up to that promise yes.
By the same token the untied states is not a communist/fascist/whatever state when the government is directly run by the president, even if he's natonalized a few companies.
The government doesn't "set" the unemployment level the way they do the interest one.
I feel that Obama has failed to live up to his promise but I also feel that things like the stimulus prove that he is trying to make progress on the issue and so I cut the guy some slack and sit back to let him work it all out, it took FDR several terms to get us out of the Great Depression after all...
I love it, keep digging a deeper hole... listen to the words you used in this comment... "he failed," "he's nationalized a few companies..." keep it up.
Talk about disconnect.
| 285 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:54:10am |
re: #279 Bagua
Of course not, you are a full time anti-Bush/Anti-US Military propagandist. Why ever would you stop? You obviously take great pleasure in this vile behaviour.
Have fun bashing Bush and the Military. But don't expect me to ignore it either.
Sorry, Bagua. Posting information about what happened isn't 'vile behaviour'.
Accusing me of hating the military, or Bush, or 'weeping and moaning' over terrorists, is.
I'm not some ANSWER/Code Pink/Cindy sheehan-ish wacko, whatever it pleases you to think.
| 286 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:54:11am |
re: #275 Sharmuta
Thanks, Bish.
Well- enough kook fodder and strawmen arguments for me today. Have a great day, Lizards.
Thanks for dropping by Sharmuta, always a pleasure to hear from you.
| 287 |
albusteve Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:55:07am |
re: #278 andres
Where were you on 2001-2004? Oh yeah, cheering on Bush actions.
I don't cheer for any politician, legislator or talking head...you must be thinking of someone else
| 288 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:55:19am |
re: #281 iceweasel
Yikes. Good luck. Congrats again, btw on the new job.
Thanks, it actually pay a bit better than a standard retail position, I guess "thanks" to the overly physical nature of some of the work. So, it's not like I'm doing this for minimum... but it's certainly not near what I was making as a programmer... but it's ok.
| 289 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:56:15am |
Off to work... buy thrift... recycle someone else's life.
| 290 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:56:39am |
re: #285 iceweasel
Blah, blah, blah.
You do this every similar thread. You never have anything positive to say about the US military, and you never highlight abuses committed by others.
You are an anti-US military bigot. Period. Look in the mirror and stop pretending.
| 291 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:09:41am |
re: #283 sagehen
"Honey, the farm didn't bring in much this past season, so let's not buy any seeds or fertilizer this year; maybe we'll make enough to afford it next year."
Bad analogy
seeds and fertilizer are NECESSITIES to running the 'farm'
An HDTV isn't
re: #282 jamesfirecat
the government not spending money when the market is down is a bad idea
The gov't spending money when the market is down IS a bad idea,, IF they don't spend it wisely!!
(geee ,,, just like the home analogy I gave you !!)
| 292 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:10:22am |
re: #290 Bagua
Blah, blah, blah.
You do this every similar thread. You never have anything positive to say about the US military, and you never highlight abuses committed by others.
You are an anti-US military bigot. Period. Look in the mirror and stop pretending.
Bullshit.
I'm a person who's concerned with the rule of law, civil liberties, and torture under the US, who's been following those issues for years.
Take a look at some of my prior posts and you'll find that I've always given Bush credit for, for example, his work in Africa-- which to my mind he has never yet received proper credit for, from either the right or the left.
So it's false to claim I'm an anti-military 'bigot', or that I hate Bush, or anything similar.
I don't care if we continue to disagree on the issue, but quit it with these personal -- and false -- attacks.
Because the more you make them, the more it starts to look like I'm right- you don't want to know the facts, and you're reacting with unwarranted hostility to anyone who points them out.
If it bothers you so much and you're so sure my posts are crap, then quit reading them. Neither you nor anyone else is going to bully me out of making them.
| 293 |
ckb Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:10:31am |
I read the piece and this thread and there's one thing I wanted to note that wasn't mentioned. Maybe it can help explain why the author and his client are so out of step with the conclusions of the investigation:
The investigators have access to the unredacted reports and likely know a lot more about what actually happened (or the explanation of what happened) than these peripheral witnesses. This would make Holder's office look complicit, when they were really doing a good job addressing and investigating the complaint.
Seems likely the commander REALLY messed up in the handling of something though, since he's now a ROTC instructor.
This appears to me to be one of those things that the full 40 years is going to have to pass before we see the full reports.
| 294 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:12:32am |
re: #291 sattv4u2
Bad analogy
seeds and fertilizer are NECESSITIES to running the 'farm'
An HDTV isn't
re: #282 jamesfirecat
the government not spending money when the market is down is a bad ideaThe gov't spending money when the market is down IS a bad idea,, IF they don't spend it wisely!!
(geee ,,, just like the home analogy I gave you !!)
Okay then, what do you consider to be the right way for the government to spend money when the market is down?
| 295 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:13:43am |
re: #293 ckb
This appears to me to be one of those things that the full 40 years is going to have to pass before we see the full reports.
That's my guess too, not just with these reports but many dealing with our conduct over the last 9 years (and w/r/t all forthcoming conduct by the Obama admin). Even those documents that have already been released under the FOIA or due to lawsuits by the ACLU's Accountability Project are often highly redacted.
| 296 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:15:50am |
re: #284 Walter L. Newton
I love it, keep digging a deeper hole... listen to the words you used in this comment... "he failed," "he's nationalized a few companies..." keep it up.
Talk about disconnect.
The disconnect between what and what exactly? How do you think Obama should have dealt with companies like GM as opposed to natonalizing them?
| 297 |
celticdragon Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:23:24am |
re: #87 lawhawk
Punish those who engaged in wrongdoing, but you have to acknowledge that the Seton Hall reconstruction could be seriously flawed because they were basing their results on a highly redacted report - where key details were likely blocked out from the report that would shed light on potential wrongdoing, or to suggest how the events could have gone down the way they did. The Harpers article is based heavily on the Seton Hall reconstruction, which is admittedly lacking because of the highly redacted nature. We would be much better served if the whole report were released, and not just a redacted version.
If the report was influenced by political decisions, that too should be investigated. If the DOJ is burying details of wrongdoing, investigate and punish.
That sounds fine, but the current administration has no intention of investigating a damned thing from the prior admin. They know it will blow up in their faces (tea party times 1000%) and suck all the oxygen out of the room as far as getting the Presidents agenda enacted. It will also immediately set him up for the next Republican administration to retaliate by opening up criminal investigation on his admin.
It will be 10 to 15 years before anybody starts to take this seriously, and possibly longer then that. When you look at threads where this is discussed, the culture war left/right bullshit kicks into high( more like insane) gear.
| 298 |
celticdragon Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:25:48am |
re: #293 ckb
I read the piece and this thread and there's one thing I wanted to note that wasn't mentioned. Maybe it can help explain why the author and his client are so out of step with the conclusions of the investigation:
The investigators have access to the unredacted reports and likely know a lot more about what actually happened (or the explanation of what happened) than these peripheral witnesses. This would make Holder's office look complicit, when they were really doing a good job addressing and investigating the complaint.
Seems likely the commander REALLY messed up in the handling of something though, since he's now a ROTC instructor.
This appears to me to be one of those things that the full 40 years is going to have to pass before we see the full reports.
Uh, because there was no real investigation. Interviews I have seen in the last two days with Scott Horton read between tragedy and farce when he mentions that FBI agents talked to one of the witnesses briefly at a Denny's restaurant.
There will be no investigation for 15 years at the least is my guess.
| 299 |
sagehen Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:26:02am |
re: #291 sattv4u2
Bad analogy
seeds and fertilizer are NECESSITIES to running the 'farm'
An HDTV isn't
When consumer demand contracts, as in a severe recession bordering on depression, government is the spender of last resort to keep any money circulating at all -- otherwise the economy contracts even further.The stimulus package was 1/3 tax cuts (a compromise with Republicans, in hopes that some of them might vote for the package); there were block grants to states and cities so they wouldn't have to lay off cops and teachers; and there's roadworks and building projects that Republicans who voted against the bill and railed against it show up to for photo ops and claim they brought this to the district. Oh, and the unemployment extensions.
Exactly which part of the stimulus spending do you think was unnecessary or wasteful?
| 300 |
celticdragon Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:26:26am |
re: #290 Bagua
Blah, blah, blah.
You do this every similar thread. You never have anything positive to say about the US military, and you never highlight abuses committed by others.
You are an anti-US military bigot. Period. Look in the mirror and stop pretending.
Maybe you need to find another place to play.
| 301 |
CapeCoddah Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:31:28am |
re: #270 jamesfirecat
Um, you need to go back and take a closer look at the depression, and the fact that those several terms of FDR was what dragged out the depression for more than 10 years.
| 302 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:31:44am |
re: #294 jamesfirecat
Okay then, what do you consider to be the right way for the government to spend money when the market is down?
Funny thing is, they don't have to "spend" a dime!
One HUGE reason companies aren't and haven't been hiring id they are skittish about how much it will cost them when/if health care reform passes. Companies like to have 3 month, 6 month, 1 year and 5 year plans. It's immpossible to plan/ budget if you have no idea what a fixed cost will be
ALSO ,,, raising taxes on "CORPORTAIONS" causes the same problem. In that those raised taxes have to come from somewhere, and I gauruntee it will not come from their profits nor profit margin, it will come from one of two places
charge the consumer more for that companies goods or services, which will most likely mean they will sell less due to the higher consumer cost
OR ,, cut more overhead ( read ,, SATFF)
Ever notice a big company moving it's headquarters from State "A" to State "B"? REASON ,,, state "A" gave them tax breaks
Benefits the company, obvioulsy, but ALSO benefits the state
Brings in jobs which the state takes taxes out of. Peolple with jobs spend money near home, which increases the profits in THOSE stores and the state collects MORE taxes from them
| 303 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:32:23am |
re: #299 sagehen
Exactly which part of the stimulus spending do you think was unnecessary or wasteful?
GOOGLE Stimulus EARMARKS for a running start!
| 304 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:38:34am |
re: #302 sattv4u2
Funny thing is, they don't have to "spend" a dime!
One HUGE reason companies aren't and haven't been hiring id they are skittish about how much it will cost them when/if health care reform passes. Companies like to have 3 month, 6 month, 1 year and 5 year plans. It's immpossible to plan/ budget if you have no idea what a fixed cost will be
ALSO ,,, raising taxes on "CORPORTAIONS" causes the same problem. In that those raised taxes have to come from somewhere, and I gauruntee it will not come from their profits nor profit margin, it will come from one of two places
charge the consumer more for that companies goods or services, which will most likely mean they will sell less due to the higher consumer cost
OR ,, cut more overhead ( read ,, SATFF)Ever notice a big company moving it's headquarters from State "A" to State "B"? REASON ,,, state "A" gave them tax breaks
Benefits the company, obvioulsy, but ALSO benefits the state
Brings in jobs which the state takes taxes out of. Peolple with jobs spend money near home, which increases the profits in THOSE stores and the state collects MORE taxes from them
So in other words you suggest that the Stimulius should have been all tax cuts?
| 305 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:38:46am |
re: #300 celticdragon
Maybe you need to find another place to play.
Wouldn't that be Charles' call!?!?!
| 306 |
bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:40:11am |
re: #292 iceweasel
Bullshit.
I'm a person who's concerned with the rule of law, civil liberties, and torture under the US, who's been following those issues for years.
[...]
Oh nonsense, you never have anything good to say about the brave men and women defending our freedoms. If you were even a bit balanced on this issue I wouldn't highlight it. I'm sure there are issues I'm biased on as well, we all are, you should accept the possibility in yourself.
But don't feel bad, I still love your moonbat self *smooch*
| 307 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:40:16am |
re: #304 jamesfirecat
So in other words you suggest that the Stimulius should have been all tax cuts?
Where did I say that?
I gave you two HUGE examples of where policy is getting in the way of recovery (Health Care reform and corporate tax rate INCREASE)
| 308 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:41:28am |
re: #300 celticdragon
Maybe you need to find another place to play.
Maybe you need to accept that others have different opinions?
| 309 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:44:59am |
re: #306 bagua
Oh nonsense, you never have anything good to say about the brave men and women defending our freedoms. If you were even a bit balanced on this issue I wouldn't highlight it. I'm sure there are issues I'm biased on as well, we all are, you should accept the possibility in yourself.
But don't feel bad, I still love your moonbat self *smooch*
I'm sorry, but you're wrong to think I 'never have anything good to say' about the military. I have been following these issues involving torture and civil liberties violations since 2004. That's why I always post in the threads about them.
This isn't an area in which I am 'biased', but one in which I am fairly well informed.
I love you too, even if you did call me a moonbat. *stamps tiny librhul feet*.
| 310 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:48:31am |
re: #307 sattv4u2
Where did I say that?
I gave you two HUGE examples of where policy is getting in the way of recovery (Health Care reform and corporate tax rate INCREASE)
So what is the solution to the health care situation? Should we just not touch it at all because it makes the Coporations skittish?
| 311 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:51:22am |
re: #310 jamesfirecat
So what is the solution to the health care situation? Should we just not touch it at all because it makes the Coporations skittish?
No,, we SHOULD do what you or I would do with our car if it had several problems
Identify and fix THOSE issues (flat tire ,,, bad muffler ,,,new wipers)
NOT go out and buy a new car
| 312 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:56:59am |
re: #311 sattv4u2
No,, we SHOULD do what you or I would do with our car if it had several problems
Identify and fix THOSE issues (flat tire ,,, bad muffler ,,,new wipers)
NOT go out and buy a new car
And in this situation that analogy relates to point by point healthcare reform where each individual issue (denying people with pre-existing conditions, dropping people who develop serrious conditions) should be made into its own bill rather than collected all in one big lump sum?
| 313 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:04:13pm |
re: #312 jamesfirecat
And in this situation that analogy relates to point by point healthcare reform where each individual issue (denying people with pre-existing conditions, dropping people who develop serrious conditions) should be made into its own bill rather than collected all in one big lump sum?
WTF is the difefrence if one thing at a time is fixed or if they do it in one fell swoop?
When I get a flat, I don't change my wipers NOR wait for my wipers to fail and then change both the flat AND the wipers
IF they come up with a fix for one issue at the same time as coming up with a fix for a seperate issue, roll them together, WTF would it matter
BUT ,, if they have a fix for one issue but can't find one for issue #2, should they wait and NOT legislate #1 until they have a solution to #2!?!?!
| 314 |
Bagua Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:06:40pm |
re: #309 iceweasel
I love you too, even if you did call me a moonbat. *stamps tiny librhul feet*.
*smooch*
We like our friends despite their faults, not because of them.
I'm just so tired of these blame the military, agonise over the rights of terrorist scum threads that I too am now biased against anyone who unfairly attacks the noble American military.
We need to move on as a nation and focus on defeating the enemy, not prosecuting our heroes.
| 315 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:07:05pm |
re: #313 sattv4u2
WTF is the difefrence if one thing at a time is fixed or if they do it in one fell swoop?
When I get a flat, I don't change my wipers NOR wait for my wipers to fail and then change both the flat AND the wipersIF they come up with a fix for one issue at the same time as coming up with a fix for a seperate issue, roll them together, WTF would it matter
BUT ,, if they have a fix for one issue but can't find one for issue #2, should they wait and NOT legislate #1 until they have a solution to #2!?!?!
So you're saying that the government should have done more stimulus work to get unemployment out of the double digits before trying to deal with healthcare?
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, it's just that apparently my brain isn't working today so I'm having trouble matching your metaphors to actual concrete actions.
| 316 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:10:39pm |
re: #306 bagua
Also, not to belabour this point, but I have friends and family myself who've been in the military. I am not someone who hates the military.
Moreover, I'm not someone who screamed about civil liberties or the rule of law, or torture, or the expansion of executive powers only under Bush and then is mysteriously ok with it when Obama continues and even (in some cases) extends those some policies.
But this is an area I am passionate about, probably the area I'm most passionate about apart from reproductive freedom issues, so there it is. We'll probably continue to disagree on this issue, but I'm not inconsistent in my positions or criticisms -- and they don't derive from any anti-military or anti-Bush bias.
| 317 |
sagehen Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:11:53pm |
re: #314 Bagua
*smooch*
I'm just so tired of these blame the military, agonise over the rights of terrorist scum threads that I too am now biased against anyone who unfairly attacks the noble American military.We need to move on as a nation and focus on defeating the enemy, not prosecuting our heroes.
And I ask again: with no trials, no evidence, no testimony, no verdicts -- how are we to know who's the terrorist scum and who's the innocent person mistakenly suspected of being terrorist scum?
| 318 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:16:55pm |
re: #314 Bagua
*smooch*
We like our friends despite their faults, not because of them.I'm just so tired of these blame the military, agonise over the rights of terrorist scum threads that I too am now biased against anyone who unfairly attacks the noble American military.
We need to move on as a nation and focus on defeating the enemy, not prosecuting our heroes.
I understand that and even have some sympathies with that -- I mentioned upthread that I think Bush/cheney did come under unfair attacks and criticisms at times, and I therefore see why people who were tired of that might automatically react in that way to all criticisms.
We just disagree over whether we can fight the enemy and at the same time examine where we've gone wrong. I think we can, and must.
For the record, I'm divided on the question regarding Obama's decision to refuse to release further photos about Abu G. I've posted about it here before. One reason I'm divided on it is because although I think those photos must and will come out (they always do, and some have been leaked in other non-US media like the UK), I don't want them released while there's the possibility of them inflaming sentiment against our troops, and potentially putting them in harm's way. I can't get behind that.
So, my position definitely isn't anti-military, or lacking nuance.
| 319 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:17:55pm |
re: #315 jamesfirecat
So you're saying that the government should have done more stimulus work to get unemployment out of the double digits before trying to deal with healthcare?
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, it's just that apparently my brain isn't working today so I'm having trouble matching your metaphors to actual concrete actions.
No ,, i'm saying they COULD have done both, but smartly
TARP was 100% necessary, and I applaud Bushs' team for devising it and for leaving half the money for the next administration (knowing that the problems would overlap the year)
As stated, GOOGLE Stimulus Earmarks for lists of spending that has nothing to do with long term job creation
| 320 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:27:21pm |
re: #319 sattv4u2
I think you're on the right track as far as incremental changes being more useful than a big monolithic package.
Targeting the most egregious abuses of the insurance industry first, would have been a populist win as well.
The problem with many of these is that you can't do A without affecting B,C,D and F. Or, since most people don't seem to understand that correlation does not prove causality, get beat up because you did A and Z came along, which had nothing to do with A, but which your political opponents will try to claim was a direct result of A.
| 321 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:32:28pm |
re: #319 sattv4u2
No ,, i'm saying they COULD have done both, but smartly
TARP was 100% necessary, and I applaud Bushs' team for devising it and for leaving half the money for the next administration (knowing that the problems would overlap the year)
As stated, GOOGLE Stimulus Earmarks for lists of spending that has nothing to do with long term job creation
I'll admit some of these seem silly but then so do some of the things the Republcians raise seem equally silly for being an issue.
"$88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaking ship."
Yeah because nothing is happening at the north pole which could create new trade routes.
"$448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters. $75 million to construct a “security training” facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies."
Because we're safe enough as is.
"$600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees. $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations." Lord knows there's no future in hybrid cars!
"$400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD’s." Cause you take the risk when you play the game so don't come crying to me about AIDS or trying to warn people who have it that they should stop f***ing around.
"$75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI." Who needs those stuffed shirts?
"$6 billion to turn federal buildings into “green” buildings." Once again, there's no future in Green tech!
"$500 million for state and local fire stations. $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands." Burn baby burn....
All that said I will admit some of the stuff they bring up is irritating for me to see.
"$246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film."
"$248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters." HOW THE F*** DOES THE FURNITURE COST HALF AS MUCH AS THE BUILDING?
So like I said clearly we could trim some of these ear marks, but do you suggest we get rid of the ear marking process entirely?
| 322 |
jvic Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:45:08pm |
The enemy has made this a dirty war.
War, especially dirty war, involves actions that I do not want to, and should not, know about.
That doesn't mean anything goes.
Combine Horton's allegation with the reports that a significant fraction of released Gitmo prisoners rejoin terrorist organizations. Innocent people are bought from bounty hunters and abused, and terrorists are released.
The ethical conundra aside, there's a serious issue of competence here. IMO it's a systemic issue, not a partisan one. Harper's:
Bumgarner was known as an eccentric commander. Hickman marveled, for instance, at the colonel’s insistence that his staff line up and salute him, to music selections that included Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony and the reggae hit “Bad Boys,” as he entered the command center.
Huh? What is this, the Zimbabwo-Slobbovian Imperial Legion? Maybe I don't want to know the truth. Maybe I can't handle the truth.
| 323 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 12:50:38pm |
re: #322 jvic
IMO it's a systemic issue, not a partisan one.
Exactly. It shouldn't be a partisan issue. For some it has been, like people on the left who cared about these issues when it meant a chance to attack Bush, but have nothing to say about it under Obama.
There were systemic flaws and abuses, and most of that system remains in place unchanged under Obama. (despite the rollback of the EIT and the eventual closing of Gitmo).
And those systemic problems need to be addressed.
| 324 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 1:14:16pm |
BTW, Horton has posted a response on his blog to the Justice Dept's statement:
The Official Response Begins
Excerpt:
This is all classic misdirection, an attempt to make the story not about the crimes at Guantánamo but the minutes of meetings in Baltimore and Columbia. Still, the fact that the Justice Department is unwilling to say who was at these brief interviews speaks volumes. It does not deny that the interviews occurred, nor that the descriptions of the meetings are otherwise accurate, nor even that the lawyers identified were in fact involved in the investigation. It simply insists that the team conducting these interviews not be identified.
Of course, this adamant insistence on official anonymity does nothing to dispel the accusation of cover-up. Just the opposite: it suggests that the lawyers and FBI agents involved quite urgently wish not to have their names associated with it.
| 325 |
koedo Thu, Jan 21, 2010 2:39:23pm |
I was just musing in a moment of absentmindedness that was entirely too short.
I know there's a lot of 'ifs'. And I know it strains the limits of probability. But what if we're beginning to see a sort of major shake-up in National politics? I've sen a few articles like this one since the Massachusetts Senatorial election and a lot of punditry on the news shows. What are the chances of the political mood in the country from sort of catching fire a little bit and seeing some big upsets in the mid-term. Apparently, people are or are approaching the snapping point and Obama's the President and the Senate is Democratic. Could we see an historic election on '12?
| 328 |
koedo Thu, Jan 21, 2010 2:46:28pm |
All of a sudden there's a lot of senator's that are in deep trouble if the HC is sent back to the house. Quite a few took, uhm, incentives to get on board with the Dems on HC. If '12 sees an appreciable increase in Republican power these Republican senators with green palms are going have to answer.
| 329 |
sagehen Thu, Jan 21, 2010 3:44:40pm |
re: #328 koedo
All of a sudden there's a lot of senator's that are in deep trouble if the HC is sent back to the house. Quite a few took, uhm, incentives to get on board with the Dems on HC. If '12 sees an appreciable increase in Republican power these Republican senators with green palms are going have to answer.
Excuse me? What Republican Senators got on board with the Dems in any way shape or form?
As far as I'm aware, there was only:
Olympia Snowe voted to let a bill out of committee (a committee that had enough Dems to pass it even if she hadn't), while stating that just wanting it out of committee didn't mean she'd vote for its eventual passage (and she's since stated she won't vote for it).
Freshman Cao voted for the House bill -- but he's from a deeply Democratic district, the only reason he even had a chance of being elected in the first place was because the incumbent had just been convicted on 37 counts of bribery.
That's it. That's all.
If you were referring to Ben Nelson (NB) or Mary Landrieau (LA), they're Democrats.
| 330 |
funky chicken Thu, Jan 21, 2010 7:42:43pm |
re: #95 jamesfirecat
Did you read how the story about how they killed themselves? It seems to paint a pretty difficult picture to swallow.
And that census worker in KY killed himself in a similar way. I was sure he was murdered by meth cookers, because I just couldn't believe a guy could manage to bind himself up so completely. I was wrong then, and I'm pretty sure these GTMO inmates were every bit as motivated to kill themselves as the census guy.
Maybe they helped each other? Fanatical Islamists do have a history of glorifying spectacular suicide, after all.
| 331 |
Sharmuta Thu, Jan 21, 2010 7:49:48pm |
re: #330 funky chicken
And that census worker in KY killed himself in a similar way. I was sure he was murdered by meth cookers, because I just couldn't believe a guy could manage to bind himself up so completely. I was wrong then, and I'm pretty sure these GTMO inmates were every bit as motivated to kill themselves as the census guy.
Maybe they helped each other? Fanatical Islamists do have a history of glorifying spectacular suicide, after all.
No way! The Obama Administration is clearly a bunch of closet fascist sympathizers hellbent on protecting Bushitler/Cheneyburton!!1!11
| 332 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:43:58pm |
For the torture apologists and those living in denial, and those who are still so uninformed on this issue that they claim there is 'no reason' for the Obama admin to cover this up, you could have tried making it through at least the first paragraph in the linked Harpers article, which ends thusly:
Furthermore, new evidence now emerging may entangle Obama’s young administration with crimes that occurred during the George W. Bush presidency, evidence that suggests the current administration failed to investigate seriously—and may even have continued—a cover-up of the possible homicides of three prisoners at Guantánamo in 2006.
I've also outlined some further points regarding this.
You may now return to your heavy schedules of denying and Obama-hating.
| 333 |
sireverlast Thu, Jan 21, 2010 8:56:08pm |
This is a conspiracy theory almost on par with the Birther and 9/11 troofers.
This article is suspect because it doesn't match the official accounts. Forget that several hundred people work on the Guard Force at any given time and that for this ridiculous conspiracy theory to have occurred, all of them would have had to shut their mouths about it, along with the NCIS, DoJ, and the current administration. Not to mention that it hasn't been proven that the site in the article is the CIA camp, nor was a credible reason given for why two prisoners who were on an upcoming DMO (detainee movement order) back to their native countries would be killed by US soldiers. There was no cover up. This is just a conspiracy theory article written by a bunch of law students who want to beef up their "constitutional rights" credentials. You'll notice that Seton Hall's Law school has been at the forefront of quite a few pro-detainee articles and some of the teachers there represented detainees. This allegation with it's "Camp No" account is simply ludicrous.
| 336 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 10:21:30pm |
re: #333 sireverlast
The second statement is an attempt to frame the conflict in terms of a controversy between Sergeant Hickman and himself, which he leads into by saying he doesn’t even know who Hickman is. That statement is demonstrably false. As we confirmed with Defense Department records, Bumgarner recommended Hickman for a medal (shown below) based on his cool-headed approach to defusing a prison riot on May 18, 2006. Moreover, Hickman was selected as NCO of the Quarter at Guantánamo, a fact the camp commander would certainly have known at the time. In any case, the key points in which Bumgarner figures do not rest on Hickman’s accounts alone—they are corroborated by a series of additional witnesses, as well as by published accounts in which Bumgarner himself is extensively quoted.
The third statement presents Bumgarner with even more serious problems. He denies that Hickman was present or has knowledge of what transpired at Camp 1 and the detainee clinic on the night of June 9. “I was there,” he says. Let’s be very clear about this: Either Bumgarner lied in a formal statement to NCIS, or he lied to AP.
Much, much more.
| 337 |
SirEverlast Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:14:01pm |
re: #336 iceweasel
I read Horton's rather shabby rebuttal, and it offers nothing. The fact that Sergeant Hickman was awarded an impact ARCOM means nothing. The approving authority for ARCOMs -- i.e. the person who approves the award, not the person who submits the award on behalf of the soldier, is the soldier's first line supervisor, and in the case of a Sergeant the Colonel was not. ARCOMs are fairly common, and in my experiences, Colonels sign hundreds of them on tours such as these. Furthermore, the non-sequitir of being NCO of the month has nothing to do with the Colonel, as senior NCOs select soldiers for these accolades.
Regarding the Colonel's statement, I read it to the fact that he was at the medical facility after they had died, not that he was present on the block in the late hours of the night. Neither you nor Horton has answered the critical points I've made nor provided any proof for this idiotic allegation.
| 338 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:20:36pm |
re: #337 SirEverlast
I read Horton's rather shabby rebuttal, and it offers nothing.
On the contrary, it proves that Bumgarner lied, either to the NCIS or to the AP.
It also exposes the shabbiness of the Justice Department's 'response':
The Justice Department response is also informative. It was confronted with several allegations: that the FBI had been involved in a cover-up from the first days after the deaths, launching a raid designed to intimidate witnesses from speaking openly; that the Justice Department may have made repeated misleading statements to federal judge James Robertson in furtherance of the cover-up; and that the Department claimed to have concluded its investigation into Hickman’s story before contacting witnesses who would have, and did, corroborate it.The Justice Department had no response to any of these serious allegations.
Check the DOD pathology reports linked upthread. Over 100 detainee deaths occurred in US custody which the DOD itself found to be homicides, several occurring under interrogation.
So there is no prima facie problem here in acknowledging the possibilty that there could be 3 more-- but there IS a prima facie problem in accepting the NCIS's bizarre and convoluted explanations for how these 'suicides' occurred.
Those questions continue to remain unanswered.
| 339 |
Sharmuta Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:28:39pm |
re: #337 SirEverlast
When the argument boils down to "the American government is lying", you know you're on the borders of conspiracy territory.
| 340 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:36:18pm |
re: #339 Sharmuta
When the argument boils down to "the American government is lying", you know you're on the borders of conspiracy territory.
That is not what the argument boils down to. But you would know this if you bothered to read any of the links or bothered to research it.
When the argument boils down to "everything the gov't says must be true, even when it conflicts with what other governemnt agencies say, eyewitness accounts, and required us to believe that detainees shoved rags down their own throats, put on masks, then hung themselves, somehow knowing that on that particular night no guards would make the regulat ten minutes checks, instead leaving them all unchecked for at least 2 1/2 hours" -- then it's kook fodder. And willful stupidity.
There are a lot of questions remaining even after the Justice Department statement. If you think Charles is a 'kook' or posting 'kook fodder' because he's pointed that out, have at it.
| 341 |
Aye Pod Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:42:27pm |
Supposing they were jihadists. Of the three, two were going to be released. I find it very hard to believe that two jihadists who were due for release would choose to suicide in a cell rather than get out there and do a whole lot more damage to the 'crusaders'. It really makes no sense at all. Anyone who thinks this is something to be dismissed out of hand needs their head looking at.
| 342 |
The Left Thu, Jan 21, 2010 11:59:29pm |
re: #341 Jimmah
Supposing they were jihadists. Of the three, two were going to be released. I find it very hard to believe that two jihadists who were due for release would choose to suicide in a cell rather than get out there and do a whole lot more damage to the 'crusaders'. It really makes no sense at all. Anyone who thinks this is something to be dismissed out of hand needs their head looking at.
Exactly. Look, we've known since 9-11 that there are people who hate us so much they don't care if they kill themselves just to kill as many US people as possible. That isn't at issue.
We also know that people have occasionally died under excessive interrogation. That isn't at issue either; the DOD itself confirms it.
We were told in the first days after these 'suicides' that they were an act of 'asymmetrical warfare' against the US, designed to make us look bad.
But two of those people were due to be released. Supposing they were jihadists, dedicated to killing the infidel and determined to hurt the US in any way possible. Wouldn't they have chosen release?
And that still doesn't explain how 3 prisoners held under tight security in non-adjacent cells were able to co-ordinate their 'suicides', were able to get access to all the fabric required (it's claimed they hung sheets in their cells and fashioned dummies of themselves, as well as having the fabric to hang themselves and jam some rags down their throats)-- nor how they knew in advance that the regular ten minute checks would not be performed for at least 2 1/2 hours.
Lots of questions remain.
And another death occurred in June 2009 under conditions that remain unknown.
People really ought to read at least the Horton article, where all of this is laid out and more, before simply deciding to dismiss it for no reason at all, so far as I can tell.
Especially the end parts about Obama, the JSOC black sites, and that Obama's order to close secret sites only applies to those under CIA control, not the JSOC.
| 344 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 12:48:35am |
re: #343 Sharmuta
GAZE
Like I said, you got nothin'.
Except random insults about the post being 'kook fodder'.
| 345 |
Aye Pod Fri, Jan 22, 2010 1:16:43am |
As for the idea that they redacted the bits of the report that show that everything was totally above board - of course it's possible, but I think any reasonable person would have to raise a distinctly Spockian eyebrow of doubt over that, to say the very least.
| 347 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 1:20:17am |
re: #346 Sharmuta
I proudly called zombie kook fodder too.
Sure. Long after I was openly calling her crap that.
Now you think CJ is posting kook fodder. Ooh-kay.
| 348 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 1:22:01am |
re: #345 Jimmah
As for the idea that they redacted the bits of the report that show that everything was totally above board - of course it's possible, but I think any reasonable person would have to raise a distinctly Spockian eyebrow of doubt over that, to say the very least.
Exactly. "We can't rule out that there's exculpatory information in the redacted bits! And that they chose instead to release the ones that, uh, look damn weird."
Why, oh why, does the NCIS hate our troops? /
| 349 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 1:34:47am |
For all those who would like to claim the post is 'kook fodder', here is what Charles said:
Horton’s piece contains some very disturbing details that strongly suggest the full story has yet to come out
For purposes of discussion, rather than baiting or attempting to pick fights with individuals here such as myself who happen to agree with that statement, I suggest the following:
1. Explain where and why and how you disagree with that statement, which will require you to actually read the Horton piece.
2. Try to justify your claim that that statement is 'kook fodder'.
Or better still, leave aside random insults like "kook fodder" entirely, and try to make substantive and cogent arguments and/or objections, preferably with links. Such as I have done in this thread.
| 352 |
funky chicken Fri, Jan 22, 2010 5:18:53am |
re: #333 sireverlast
This is a conspiracy theory almost on par with the Birther and 9/11 troofers.
This article is suspect because it doesn't match the official accounts. Forget that several hundred people work on the Guard Force at any given time and that for this ridiculous conspiracy theory to have occurred, all of them would have had to shut their mouths about it, along with the NCIS, DoJ, and the current administration. Not to mention that it hasn't been proven that the site in the article is the CIA camp, nor was a credible reason given for why two prisoners who were on an upcoming DMO (detainee movement order) back to their native countries would be killed by US soldiers. There was no cover up. This is just a conspiracy theory article written by a bunch of law students who want to beef up their "constitutional rights" credentials. You'll notice that Seton Hall's Law school has been at the forefront of quite a few pro-detainee articles and some of the teachers there represented detainees. This allegation with it's "Camp No" account is simply ludicrous.
Yep. But the iceweasel-Jimmah tag team just can't get enough of it. How sad that a recently married couple spends their time promoting conspiracy theories and updinging each other on a blog every day. Oh well, I guess it works for them.
Again:
And that census worker in KY killed himself in a similar way. I was sure he was murdered by meth cookers, because I just couldn't believe a guy could manage to bind himself up so completely. I was wrong then, and I'm pretty sure these GTMO inmates were every bit as motivated to kill themselves as the census guy.Maybe they helped each other? Fanatical Islamists do have a history of glorifying spectacular suicide, after all.
| 353 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 5:23:22am |
re: #333 sireverlast
This is a conspiracy theory almost on par with the Birther and 9/11 troofers.
This article is suspect because it doesn't match the official accounts. Forget that several hundred people work on the Guard Force at any given time
Unsurprisingly, you still haven't read the seton hall report, nor the NCIS report, nor (it appears) have you understood the Horton article.
If you had done any of those things, you would be aware that it's the NCIS report that is suspect because of the many contradictions it contains, as well as what it does say, which is:
As of June 14, 2006, all four Alpha guards assigned to Alpha Block that night, the Alpha
Block NCO, and the Alpha Block PL were informed that he or she was suspected of making
false official statements and/or failing to obey direct orders.There is no evidence of the
contents of these statements, what they were, or the time and place they were made. The
investigation does not indicate what prompted the suspected false statements and failures to obey
direct orders. No evidence of any disciplinary action taken as a result of these false statements
exists.
There you go. You can find that confirmed for you in the NCIS report itself, and also the Seton Hall report, which is where that quote is from.
| 354 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 5:25:28am |
re: #352 funky chicken
Maybe they helped each other?
They were held in nonadjacent cells, with empty cells inbetween. One of them had only arrived on that cell block 72 hours before.
But then, if you'd done any of the reading, you'd know that.
| 355 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 5:28:16am |
re: #352 funky chicken
And that census worker in KY killed himself in a similar way.
unsurprisingly, you're wrong about that as well. The KY census worker was found in a position where he could lift himself up to avoid putting pressure on his neck-- which is why auto-erotic asphyxia couldn't be ruled out right away.
He also didn't have rags jammed so far down his throat that a forceps would be required to retrieve them.
| 356 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 6:09:38am |
re: #355 iceweasel
unsurprisingly, you're wrong about that as well. The KY census worker was found in a position where he could lift himself up to avoid putting pressure on his neck-- which is why auto-erotic asphyxia couldn't be ruled out right away.
He also didn't have rags jammed so far down his throat that a forceps would be required to retrieve them.
Interested persons can find that info about the forceps in the NCIS report, p 1079.
“The[n] he tried to tube him but we could not get his jaw
open. REDACTED used a lyroscope…blade, which is made of
metal, to pry the detainee‟s mouth open and in doing so broke
some of the detainee‟s teeth. Once the mouth was open we saw
that there was a big piece of cloth lodged in the back of the
detainee‟s mouth. REDACTED extracted it with the forceps
and it appeared to take a good amount of force to get it out.
Once it was out I saw that it was folded repeatedly on itself
and nearly as big as a wash cloth that was folded once in
half.
Night Shift Team Leader at the DET clinic.
Why, oh why, does he and the NCIS hate our troops?///
| 357 |
Aye Pod Fri, Jan 22, 2010 8:50:23am |
re: #352 funky chicken
Yep. But the iceweasel-Jimmah tag team just can't get enough of it. How sad that a recently married couple spends their time promoting conspiracy theories and updinging each other on a blog every day. Oh well, I guess it works for them.
Whereas making stupid unprovoked personal attacks and downdinging people saying goodnight to each other is what works for you.
That's what I call sad.
Obnoxious personal bitchiness isn't going to help you here. And neither is reposting points that have already been dealt with.
| 358 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 11:43:44am |
re: #357 Jimmah
FC hasn't bothered to read the Horton report CJ linked, nor has he read any of the other docs it talks about: the NCIS report, or the Seton Hall report. Nor has he read any of the links in spinoffs, or any of the links provided in this thread.
Most people in this thread (not all, but most, and certainly all of the deniers) haven't bothered to even read the link Charles gave. That's why they reduced to posting crap or insults.
I'll summarise some of the issues for them; these are from the Q&A Horton did some months ago with the primary author of the Seton Hall report-- in other words, this doesn't even deal with the more troubling revelations in the link Charles posted:
Q: You conclude that the military investigators reached conclusions that are unsupported by evidence and that they established other facts which they then ignore, failing to draw conclusions from them. Can you give some examples of each? Why would they do this?
A: Some examples include the following:
• There is no explanation of how three bodies could have hung in cells for at least two hours while the cells were under constant supervision and by guards continually walking the corridors guarding only 28 detainees.
• The original military press releases did not report that the detainees had been dead for more than two hours when they were discovered, nor that rigor mortis had set in by the time of discovery.
• The initial military press releases did not report that, when the detainees' bodies arrived at the clinic, it was determined that each had a rag obstructing his throat.
• There is no explanation of why the Alpha Block guards were advised that they were suspected of making false statements or failing to obey direct orders.
• There is no explanation of why the guards were ordered not to provide sworn statements about what happened that night.
• There is no explanation of why no one was disciplined for acts or failures to act that night.
Also:
There is no explanation of how each of the detainees, much less all three, could have done the following: braided a noose by tearing up his sheets and/or clothing, made a mannequin of himself so it would appear to the guards he was asleep in his cell, hung
sheets to block vision into the cell—a violation of Standard Operating Procedures-- tied his feet together, tied his hands together, hung the noose from the metal mesh of the cell wall and/or ceiling, climbed up on to the sink, put the noose around his neck and released his weight to result in death by strangulation, hanged until dead and hung for at least two hours completely unnoticed by guards.
| 359 |
sireverlast Fri, Jan 22, 2010 12:30:24pm |
re: #358 iceweasel
Fine, I'll address some of these points, as I've worked in a detention facility before in Afghanistan and have a good understanding of how things go.
Re: the first point wherein "no explanation of how three bodies could have hung in cells for at least two hours while the cells were under constant supervision and by guards continually walking the corridors guarding only 28 detainees."
Easy enough. It's night shift, and if you read this article:
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
You'll find the following information:
"More than two years later, a Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) probe and other documents reveal that the men took advantage of lapses in guard protocol and of lenient policies toward compliant detainees to commit what suicide notes described as an attack on the United States. "
""I feel that the guards and myself on Alpha block did an inadequate job monitoring the detainees that night to make sure that they were following the rules as to show some kind of skin while sleeping," said one guard, who name was redacted from the documents. "
"Investigators found that guards had become lax on certain rules because commanders wanted to reward the more compliant detainees, giving them extra T-shirts, blankets and towels. Detainees were allowed to hang such items to dry, or to provide privacy while using the toilet, but were not supposed to be able to obscure their cells while sleeping. "
When one works the night shift at a det facility, the leadership has to be vigilant because there is a tendency for people to slackoff. The detainees have mandatory sleep time, and other than cleaning and checks, which should be enforced by leadership, there generally isn't a whole lot of activity.
Re: Point 2 and 3: So what? Do ISAF press releases point out in great detail how soldiers in Afghanistan die?
Re: Point 4 It's possible that the Guards claimed that they had performed their checks when they hadn't. I'm unaware of any charges of murder being brought against them, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Re: 5 and 6: Has either of these points been proven? Furthermore, have you read the entire 1700 page NCIS report? I'd like a yes or no answer on this question.
| 360 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 12:56:04pm |
re: #359 sireverlast
Re: 5 and 6: Has either of these points been proven? Furthermore, have you read the entire 1700 page NCIS report? I'd like a yes or no answer on this question.
The answer, unfortunately for you, is yes. I have.
You have not.
If you had, you would know:
As of June 14, 2006, all four Alpha guards assigned to Alpha Block that night, the Alpha Block NCO, and the Alpha Block PL were informed that he or she was suspected of making
false official statements and/or failing to obey direct orders.There is no evidence of the contents of these statements, what they were, or the time and place they were made. The investigation does not indicate what prompted the suspected false statements and failures to obeydirect orders. No evidence of any disciplinary action taken as a result of these false statements exists.
| 361 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 1:02:12pm |
re: #359 sireverlast
"
Easy enough. It's night shift, and if you read this article:
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]
You'll find the following information:
"More than two years later, a Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) probe and other documents reveal that the men took advantage of lapses in guard protocol and of lenient policies toward compliant detainees to commit what suicide notes described as an attack on the United States. "
You know, it really isn't a good idea to imagine you can catch me out in some way, or refute the Horton piece, by googling and reading a news report that quotes only some-- not all-- of the NCIS report. Heads up for you.
Get back to me when you've read the NCIS report, the Horton piece, and the Seton Hall report. Which I have done, and you still have not.
| 362 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 1:08:20pm |
Since I'm all about helping the ignorant, here's the links for you once again:
Seton Hall report
NCIS report.
They're PDFs. Enjoy.
| 363 |
davesax Fri, Jan 22, 2010 1:37:57pm |
I haven't read this full article yet, but if it's true, it really is a disgrace and there is absolutely no excuse for it.
| 364 |
The Left Fri, Jan 22, 2010 1:49:47pm |
re: #363 davesax
I haven't read this full article yet, but if it's true, it really is a disgrace and there is absolutely no excuse for it.
Please do read it when you can!
Also the Seton Hall report I linked upthread. If you have time, I also linked the heavily redacted NCIS report.
Reading the NCIS report and the Seton Hall report will really bring home what Horton says. When you see the NCIS report you'll have no doubt that the conclusions the Seton Hall people drew were true. The NCIS report is a mess.
| 365 |
sireverlast Fri, Jan 22, 2010 4:53:03pm |
re: #360 iceweasel
It's doubtful you read the report in it's entirety, or if you did you need to re-read it. I read the report, and pages 191-193 are the recollection of the night's events by a guard who found one of the dead detainees, and 197-200 and on to about page 220 are of similar stuff. It's apparent that someone made a JDIMS entry (that's the Joint Detainee Information Management system) into the log that they had done the check into the detainee's cell when it probably never had happened, and it appears because of that all the Guards who worked the block were "suspected" of issuing false statements because one person made that entry -- but unless I'm mistaken there's been no proof they were charged with murder. Furthermore, if you've read the report, you will see that they all attributed the detainee's ability to commit suicide undetected to the fact that the Guard Force was:
1. Not allowed to carry flashlights at night to aid in visual inspection of the cell;
2. Detainees were allowed to hang up blankets and sheets for privacy in spite of Guard's protests that it prevented them from having full visual ID on them;
3. Guards were not allowed to wake detainees during sleeping hours, and were counseled if they did so.
Pages 277-278 give the testimony of an Arabic translator (who must be in on this massive conspiracy theory, natch) who described the other detainees in the same block's behavior as acting "like all students in a classroom after someone had cheated and they were involved in helping him, and were staying quiet."
Furthermore, in the article Charles linked to, Horton made this statement:
"They were being held in a cell block, known as Alpha Block, reserved for particularly troublesome or high-value prisoners."
which is not true at all. Alpha Block was reserved for compliant detainees, as stated by the Joint Detention group Commander Burmgardner on Page 282, to wit:
"Camp 1 contains compliant detainees and our goal always was to bring as many detainees as possible into the compliant or highly compliant category."
This statement "Hickman, who was frequently put in charge of security for all of Camp America, was not briefed about the site" is patently absurd. Hickman was a Sergeant. He might have been in charge of a guard tower, not the entire security for Camp America. Absolutely ridiculous.
Pages 143-150 are a record of photographs taken of the dead bodies, all of which state there are ligature marks under the neck.
After reading this report, it is beyond me how anyone can draw the conclusions (Camp No indeed) made in Horton's rather shabby piece. Furthermore, there are plenty more materials available here:
[Link: www.dod.mil...]
I suggest you read them and get off this ridiculous conspiracy theory.
| 366 |
littleugly Sat, Jan 23, 2010 4:16:12am |
re: #349 iceweasel
For all those who would like to claim the post is 'kook fodder', here is what Charles said:
For purposes of discussion, rather than baiting or attempting to pick fights with individuals here such as myself who happen to agree with that statement, I suggest the following:1. Explain where and why and how you disagree with that statement, which will require you to actually read the Horton piece.
2. Try to justify your claim that that statement is 'kook fodder'.Or better still, leave aside random insults like "kook fodder" entirely, and try to make substantive and cogent arguments and/or objections, preferably with links. Such as I have done in this thread.
Iceweasel,
Again, you are accusing our government of murder.
You are a very difficult girl.
We are not Angels, heh, we are not Angels.
Are you?
| 368 |
The Left Tue, Jan 26, 2010 12:18:51am |
re: #365 sireverlast
It's clear you still haven't read the Seton Hall report, because nothing you say touches any of its conclusions.
In fact, I highly doubt that you've even read the NCIS report, rather than just reproducing a list you found on some wingnutty site. Let's go through it:
You mention the testimony of one person who alleges that the detainees were behaving oddly that night-- yet neglect to mention all the testimony in the NCIS report saying otherwise (some of it, yes, from translators).
We established, with your comment at 333:
Forget that several hundred people work on the Guard Force at any given time
that you were either ignorant of the facts or were willing to lie and distort what the NCIS report says.
And you're continuing to do so.
| 369 |
The Left Tue, Jan 26, 2010 12:23:04am |
re: #366 littleugly
Iceweasel,
Again, you are accusing our government of murder.
You are a very difficult girl.
We are not Angels, heh, we are not Angels.Are you?
You're wrong to think I'm accusing the military of murder.
For that, you can read the DOD reports-- which establish that homicides have taken place in US custody.
As to the three 'suicides' at Gitmo, there are two options.
Best case scenario involves some very serious dereliction of duty and a coverup.
Worst case scenario: these people died under excessive interrogation, just like we know others have died (the DOD itself has concluded that), and then there was a coverup.
As for your personal comments about me, particularly the one calling me 'a difficult girl', cram your condescension and your sexism up your ass.
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Alone in a Bathroom: The Fear and Uncertainty of a Post-Roe Medication Abortion Angel tucked two white pills into each side of her mouth, bracing herself as they began to dissolve. Her deepest fears and anxieties took over. Angel had wanted to talk to a doctor before she took the pills to ... Cheechako
They Were Desperate to Get Pregnant. Then IVF Gave Them Extra Embryos. One morning last spring, Ashley Harrolle put her 1-year-old daughter down for a nap and went to the kitchen. She pulled up her fertility clinic’s contact information. It was time to make the call. In a freezer several hundred ... CheechakoJoe Bacon ✅
March FavoritesYou've seen these all already but looking back, just because. These are my favorite shots of this last month. That 1937 Zeiss Sonnar is such a gloriously wonderful bit of glass. Thanks for looking.
William Lewis
Russia’s New Combat Robots Blown Up by Drones Near Avdiivka When we landed on the moon, I thought about how science fiction had become real. Now, the robot wars have begun. It's more poignant somehow on the ground than in the missile wars we have in the air as ...
Rightwingconspirator
Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ... CheechakoKGxvi
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ... Cheechako
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ... Cheechako
