Far Right Texas School Board Members Push Revisionist History

US News • Views: 10,254

The New York Times has a disturbing article about the far right conservatives in charge of the Texas State Board of Education, and their outrageous attempt to manipulate curriculum development and textbook production for public schools.

The social conservatives appointed by Texas Governor Rick Perry (including infamous young earth creationist Don McLeroy) are pushing a revisionist history of the United States in which separation of church and state does not exist, in which the founding fathers intended the US to be a “Christian nation.”

And their ultimate goal is to influence textbook production throughout the United States, because Texas buys so many schoolbooks — 48 million annually — that the state’s purchasing decisions affect school curricula across the country. How Christian Were the Founders?

Over two days, more than a hundred people — Christians, Jews, housewives, naval officers, professors; people outfitted in everything from business suits to military fatigues to turbans to baseball caps — streamed through the halls of the William B. Travis Building in Austin, Tex., waiting for a chance to stand before the semicircle of 15 high-backed chairs whose occupants made up the Texas State Board of Education. Each petitioner had three minutes to say his or her piece.

“Please keep César Chávez” was the message of an elderly Hispanic man with a floppy gray mustache.

“Sikhism is the fifth-largest religion in the world and should be included in the curriculum,” a woman declared.

Following the appeals from the public, the members of what is the most influential state board of education in the country, and one of the most politically conservative, submitted their own proposed changes to the new social-studies curriculum guidelines, whose adoption was the subject of all the attention — guidelines that will affect students around the country, from kindergarten to 12th grade, for the next 10 years. Gail Lowe — who publishes a twice-a-week newspaper when she is not grappling with divisive education issues — is the official chairwoman, but the meeting was dominated by another member. Don McLeroy, a small, vigorous man with a shiny pate and bristling mustache, proposed amendment after amendment on social issues to the document that teams of professional educators had drawn up over 12 months, in what would have to be described as a single-handed display of archconservative political strong-arming.

McLeroy moved that Margaret Sanger, the birth-control pioneer, be included because she “and her followers promoted eugenics,” that language be inserted about Ronald Reagan’s “leadership in restoring national confidence” following Jimmy Carter’s presidency and that students be instructed to “describe the causes and key organizations and individuals of the conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s, including Phyllis Schlafly, the Contract With America, the Heritage Foundation, the Moral Majority and the National Rifle Association.” The injection of partisan politics into education went so far that at one point another Republican board member burst out in seemingly embarrassed exasperation, “Guys, you’re rewriting history now!” Nevertheless, most of McLeroy’s proposed amendments passed by a show of hands. …

The cultural roots of the Texas showdown may be said to date to the late 1980s, when, in the wake of his failed presidential effort, the Rev. Pat Robertson founded the Christian Coalition partly on the logic that conservative Christians should focus their energies at the grass-roots level. One strategy was to put candidates forward for state and local school-board elections — Robertson’s protégé, Ralph Reed, once said, “I would rather have a thousand school-board members than one president and no school-board members” — and Texas was a beachhead. Since the election of two Christian conservatives in 2006, there are now seven on the Texas state board who are quite open about the fact that they vote in concert to advance a Christian agenda. “They do vote as a bloc,” Pat Hardy, a board member who considers herself a conservative Republican but who stands apart from the Christian faction, told me. “They work consciously to pull one more vote in with them on an issue so they’ll have a majority.”

This year’s social-studies review has drawn the most attention for the battles over what names should be included in the roll call of history. But while ignoring Kennedy and upgrading Gingrich are significant moves, something more fundamental is on the agenda. The one thing that underlies the entire program of the nation’s Christian conservative activists is, naturally, religion. But it isn’t merely the case that their Christian orientation shapes their opinions on gay marriage, abortion and government spending. More elementally, they hold that the United States was founded by devout Christians and according to biblical precepts. This belief provides what they consider not only a theological but also, ultimately, a judicial grounding to their positions on social questions. When they proclaim that the United States is a “Christian nation,” they are not referring to the percentage of the population that ticks a certain box in a survey or census but to the country’s roots and the intent of the founders.

Read the whole thing…

I’ve covered the Texas School Board extensively at LGF; here’s an LGF search page for more information about Rick Perry appointee Don McLeroy and his religious fanatic cronies, who have turned Texas education into a national laughingstock.

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343 comments
1 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:51:17am

Here's an interesting little article that was published in 1850:

The United States is not a Christian nation.

2 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:51:17am

Nice piece. Longish but it does a very good job of detailing both sides of the issue.

3 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:52:51am

This is a debate we've had here many times, and you can see where the urge comes from to brand the US as a "Christian Country". While the predominant faith is Christian, the backbone and strength of our government is our protection of individual rights, and those include protections from overweening fundamentalism.

4 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:54:21am

Very good piece. I just got it in an email from the Texas Freedom Network and logged in to post the link! From near the end of the article, some positive news:

...Don McLeroy is now facing the stiffest opposition of his career. Thomas Ratliff, a well-connected lobbyist, has squared off against McLeroy in the Republican primary and is running an aggressive campaign, positioning himself as a practical, moderate Republican. “I’m not trying to out-conservative anyone,” Ratliff told me. “I think the state board of education has lost its way, and the social-studies thing is a prime example. They keep wanting to talk about this being a Christian nation. My attitude is this country was founded by a group of men who were Christians but who didn’t want the government dictating religion, and that’s exactly what McLeroy and his colleagues are trying to do.”
5 Claire  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:56:02am

If the school board is so worried about the moral core of the children why don't they introduce ethics courses and make those mandatory?

6 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:57:23am

re: #5 Claire

If the school board is so worried about the moral core of the children why don't they introduce ethics courses and make those mandatory?

I know the recommended and higher HS curricula in texas do include I think at least one credit in Ethics.
for all the good it does.

7 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:57:28am

They must be pretty insecure about their own faiths if they wanna push it on everyone else.

...Though, what do I know? I'm just a CommuNaziEeevilutionist atheist. ;)

8 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:57:56am

re: #4 jaunte

Very good piece. I just got it in an email from the Texas Freedom Network and logged in to post the link! From near the end of the article, some positive news:

-----------
...Don McLeroy is now facing the stiffest opposition of his career. Thomas Ratliff, a well-connected lobbyist, has squared off against McLeroy in the Republican primary and is running an aggressive campaign, positioning himself as a practical, moderate Republican. “I’m not trying to out-conservative anyone,” Ratliff told me. “I think the state board of education has lost its way, and the social-studies thing is a prime example. They keep wanting to talk about this being a Christian nation. My attitude is this country was founded by a group of men who were Christians but who didn’t want the government dictating religion, and that’s exactly what McLeroy and his colleagues are trying to do.”

Too bad this material will never see the coverage that the article above will have. Happens all the time.

9 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:58:49am

Competent and honest history books will never reach public school children. In the 90's, when the left had better organized activists, the founding fathers got less ink than Harriet Tubman and protesters of the 60s. Coverage of WW2 gave as much space to the Japanese internment as every battle put together. Now the right is pushing its agenda onto the choice and spin of facts in the textbooks.

Ask any Muslim or Chinese person and he will tell you the US is part of Christendom.

Nothing ever changes.

10 badger1970  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:59:04am

What part of the TAKS (Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills) does revisionist Creationist history/psuedo-sceince come into play?

11 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:59:37am

Typical McLeroy prattle:

For McLeroy, separation of church and state is a myth perpetrated by secular liberals. “There are two basic facts about man,” he said. “He was created in the image of God, and he is fallen. You can’t appreciate the founding of our country without realizing that the founders understood that. For our kids to not know our history, that could kill a society. That’s why to me this is a huge thing.”

12 researchok  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 11:59:43am

Thoughtful article, much to think about.

That said, it hard to separate the influence religion played in formation and character of the nation. Beyond that, Thanos is right, I believe. Religion may indeed be the 'skeleton', but we are made up of a lot more than that. The protection of individual rights really does define us.

This is not a zero sum game.

13 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:00:23pm

re: #8 Walter L. Newton

That's a quote from page 10 (next to last paragraph) of the NYT article.

14 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:01:39pm

The unfortunate thing is that the argument against this will get refuted with a story about some little billy who got suspended for praying during lunch.

15 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:02:00pm

re: #11 Gus 802

Typical McLeroy prattle:

Well, I was created in the image of a Pirate, so...
/;)

16 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:02:11pm

Thankfully the NYT's posted the article on Friday and I was very impressed with the job they did. It was actually fair and balanced! There has always been a strong sense among many Americans that this is a "Christian" nation. But as I posted in my own blog, we have to ask several questions about all of the terms being used. Whose Christianity are we talking about? Can any "nation" be Christian? Certainly the attempts by these conservatives to paint the founders as being Christian is almost entirely false. Were most of them religious? Absolutely. But were they Christian in any tradition orthodox sense? Very few of them were. Most were deists of varying types and a few were rather irreligious. This attempt is just another nationalistic mythology being resurrected. I don't think it'll go away any time soon. It seems to feed an appetite for a sense of exceptionalism, both personal and national.

17 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:02:23pm

Primary coming up. Texas R's have a chance to clean house a bit.

18 researchok  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:02:27pm

re: #9 keloyd

Competent and honest history books will never reach public school children. In the 90's, when the left had better organized activists, the founding fathers got less ink than Harriet Tubman and protesters of the 60s. Coverage of WW2 gave as much space to the Japanese internment as every battle put together. Now the right is pushing its agenda onto the choice and spin of facts in the textbooks.

Ask any Muslim or Chinese person and he will tell you the US is part of Christendom.

Nothing ever changes.

True. That said, in Islamic world every democracy is Christian, because there is no fundamental and universal right of equality.

19 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:02:34pm

re: #10 badger1970

What part of the TAKS (Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills) does revisionist Creationist history/psuedo-sceince come into play?

As a Texan, I can tell you we elect too many people who should be appointed. This gets some eccentric characters into power. Fortunately, we Texans have a saying, (which some claim originated with the Chinese) - the mountains are high and the emperor is far away. Competent teachers will do their job either in spite of their books, as always.

20 fizzlogic  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:02:38pm

It's not like they haven't been letting us know what they've been up to.

Image: ralph_reed.jpg

21 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:04:14pm

Printing now offers technology to eliminate the Texas factor.

Publish on Demand. Every State can have its own. Just a tad of innovation. LAUSD alone could do the whole state.

22 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:04:32pm

re: #3 Thanos

the backbone and strength of our government is our protection of individual rights, and those include protections from overweening fundamentalism.

Dunno about all that, but at the very least... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise therof."

23 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:04:35pm

re: #5 Claire

If the school board is so worried about the moral core of the children why don't they introduce ethics courses and make those mandatory?

I think based on this, that their goal is a bit different:

Many of the points that have been incorporated into the guidelines or that have been advanced by board members and their expert advisers slant toward portraying America as having a divinely preordained mission. In the guidelines — which will be subjected to further amendments in March and then in May — eighth-grade history students are asked to “analyze the importance of the Mayflower Compact, the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut and the Virginia House of Burgesses to the growth of representative government.” Such early colonial texts have long been included in survey courses, but why focus on these in particular? The Fundamental Orders of Connecticut declare that the state was founded “to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus.” The language in the Mayflower Compact — a document that McLeroy and several others involved in the Texas process are especially fond of — describes the Pilgrims’ journey as being “for the Glory of God and advancement of the Christian Faith” and thus instills the idea that America was founded as a project for the spread of Christianity.
24 Kragar  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:05:05pm

That whole "Establishment clause"? Fuck it, not in the Bible.

/

25 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:05:54pm

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That whole "Establishment clause"? Fuck it, not in the Bible.

/

Neither are germs! Sickness is cured!
/going to hell or some such place.:P

26 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:06:35pm

...checking to see if the electoral college is in the Bible...

27 Kragar  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:06:39pm

“Beware the man of one book.”

28 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:07:19pm

I'd be interested in seeing if there are any Teabag Party associations since we hear this rhetoric about a Christian nation from them. And they say it's the Left trying to change the Constitution?!

29 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:07:59pm

re: #28 marjoriemoon

Old, old tug of war there.

30 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:10:59pm

Once again I highly recommend Richard Hughes' seminal book called Myths American Live By. One of the best books on the topic out there.

31 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:11:13pm

re: #21 Rightwingconspirator

Printing now offers technology to eliminate the Texas factor.

Publish on Demand. Every State can have its own. Just a tad of innovation. LAUSD alone could do the whole state.

Or don't publish at all. My daughter got a grant for enough kindles for 1/3 of her students.

32 abbyadams  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:11:48pm

The best teacher I ever had in my high school days was one Mr. P, who taught a class called PUSH (Perspectives in US History.) We read original political texts, letters, and treatises. Paine. Hamilton. Jefferson. We had debates. (Memorably, I had to defend slavery, from the perspective of Civil-War era Southern citizen.) It was singularly the best course I ever took in history, and that includes college.

To say that any student is going to learn "real" history in a class by reading a textbook is just not true.

33 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:11:52pm

re: #28 marjoriemoon

I'd be interested in seeing if there are any Teabag Party associations since we hear this rhetoric about a Christian nation from them. And they say it's the Left trying to change the Constitution?!

I think it's safe to say that a very large number of people see the Constitution through a very personal lens

34 recusancy  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:11:56pm

re: #19 keloyd

As a Texan, I can tell you we elect too many people who should be appointed. This gets some eccentric characters into power. Fortunately, we Texans have a saying, (which some claim originated with the Chinese) - the mountains are high and the emperor is far away. Competent teachers will do their job either in spite of their books, as always.

That must be why Texas education is perennially ranked so highly in the nation. Oh, wait...

35 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:11:59pm

re: #30 Irenicum

oops. Make that Myths America Live By.

36 loubob57  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:12:00pm

I'll probably be voting for the Dem candidates for school board this Nov.

37 subsailor68  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:12:25pm

re: #26 keloyd

...checking to see if the electoral college is in the Bible...

Hi krloyd! Here's kind of an interesting read on the college and the Constitution:

Constitutional Topic: The Electoral College

38 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:13:29pm

re: #31 Decatur Deb

...enough kindles for 1/3 of her students.

Oh my. Does that mean the biggest, scrappiest, and fastest 1/3 of the kids got kindles?

39 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:14:03pm

re: #38 keloyd

Oh my. Does that mean the biggest, scrappiest, and fastest 1/3 of the kids got kindles?

Means she's after another grant.

40 simoom  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:14:34pm

(AP/CBS News) Georgia Billboards Link Race, Abortion

The message on dozens of billboards across Atlanta is provocative: Black children are an "endangered species."

The eyebrow-raising ads featuring a young black child are an effort by the anti-abortion movement to use race to rally support within the black community. The reaction from black leaders has been mixed, but the "Too Many Aborted" campaign, which so far is unique to only Georgia, is drawing support from other anti-abortion groups across the country.

"It's ingenious," said the Rev. Johnny Hunter, national director of the Life Education and Resource Network, a North Carolina-based anti-abortion group aimed at African-Americans that operates in 27 states. "This campaign is in your face, and nobody can ignore it."

The billboards went up last week in Atlanta and urge black women to "get outraged."

The effort is sponsored by Georgia Right to Life, which also is pushing legislation that aims to ban abortions based on race.

41 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:14:50pm

re: #18 researchok

True. That said, in Islamic world every democracy is Christian, because there is no fundamental and universal right of equality.

Except for Israel.

42 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:14:56pm

In Romans XIII, St Paul urges Christians to obey those whom God has placed to rule over them. Had we been a Christian Nation in 1776, we would not have rebelled against George II in the first place...

43 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:16:10pm

re: #42 ralphieboy

George III

44 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:16:53pm

re: #16 Irenicum

Thankfully the NYT's posted the article on Friday and I was very impressed with the job they did. It was actually fair and balanced! There has always been a strong sense among many Americans that this is a "Christian" nation. But as I posted in my own blog, we have to ask several questions about all of the terms being used. Whose Christianity are we talking about? Can any "nation" be Christian? Certainly the attempts by these conservatives to paint the founders as being Christian is almost entirely false. Were most of them religious? Absolutely. But were they Christian in any tradition orthodox sense? Very few of them were. Most were deists of varying types and a few were rather irreligious. This attempt is just another nationalistic mythology being resurrected. I don't think it'll go away any time soon. It seems to feed an appetite for a sense of exceptionalism, both personal and national.

As deists, from my understanding, they had a concept of God or an ultimate creator and why the Declaration of Independence mentions being "endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights". Meaning, however you interpret the word "creator". The Constitution does not mention God.

We are not a Christian nation, but Christianity is the dominant religion. I think for people who grow up in nations run under religion doctrine, such as Islam, they can't see it any other way.

45 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:17:23pm

re: #23 jaunte

Yes, analyze these compacts and documents but they must realize and accept the fact that this nation has evolved greatly since the Mayflower Compact that was signed in 1620. That document itself expresses a loyalty to the King of England and as subject of the King.

This nation too evolved greatly from 1620 to 1776 and from there until now, 2010. While it is true that the Mayflower Compact reflected an overt Christian ethic in its words it is now just a milepost in the history of this nation and by not an instructional manual by any means.

46 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:18:40pm

re: #31 Decatur Deb

Or don't publish at all. My daughter got a grant for enough kindles for 1/3 of her students.

The lesson plan-Use 21st century tech to hold off the 11th century.

47 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:19:15pm

re: #46 Rightwingconspirator

The lesson plan-Use 21st century tech to hold off the 11th century.

What've you got against 1066?

48 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:20:34pm

re: #47 mr. hammer

What've you got against 1066?

Harold only batted .500.

49 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:21:37pm

re: #35 Irenicum

I highly recommend an upsetting history book by James Bradley-Imperial Cruise. How we gave Korea to the Japanese.

50 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:21:37pm

re: #16 Irenicum

......Certainly the attempts by these conservatives to paint the founders as being Christian is almost entirely false. Were most of them religious? Absolutely. But were they Christian in any tradition orthodox sense? Very few of them were. Most were deists of varying types and a few were rather irreligious. .....

I gave you a thumbs-up but this portion of your post isn't quite true. "Most" were not deists, as a matter-of-fact very few of the signers of the declaration and the constitution were actually deists.

51 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:22:45pm

re: #50 RogueOne

Certainly not General Washington...

52 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:22:52pm

McLeroy would have been a spy for the Red Coats.

53 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:23:20pm

re: #50 RogueOne

I gave you a thumbs-up but this portion of your post isn't quite true. "Most" were not deists, as a matter-of-fact very few of the signers of the declaration and the constitution were actually deists.


I somehow suspect that the Christianity practiced by the Christian founding fathers was rather different from that which is practiced by many members of the Texas School Board.

54 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:23:27pm

re: #7 Varek Raith

They must be pretty insecure about their own faiths if they wanna push it on everyone else.

...Though, what do I know? I'm just a CommuNaziEeevilutionist atheist. ;)

I agree with you, and I'm a heathen Catholic Christian.

55 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:24:19pm

re: #51 mr. hammer

Certainly not General Washington...

Washington didn't sign the declaration but he did sign the constitution.

56 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:24:40pm

We still grow up being taught that the Puritans came here to practice their religion in freedom. They came here because other Europeans would not allow them to shove thier view of Christianity down everyone else's throats, and they wanted to start from scratch where nobody would take them to task for it.

57 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:24:41pm

re: #47 mr. hammer

Heh. 1067.

58 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:25:17pm

re: #55 RogueOne

he was a little busy when they wrote the declaration. But he chaired the constitutional convention

59 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:25:31pm

re: #44 marjoriemoon

You're quite right about that. Muslims have always seen America as a Christian nation precisely because they have no conception of the separate spheres of sacred and secular. Now some Christians share that same sentiment that there is no divide between the sacred and the secular. They generally fall into the theocratic mold of various types and also hold to a strong "Christendom" view of the church. As a Christian who believes that the Christendom model is the worst thing that could have happened to the church I'm completely at odds with their viewpoint. I also believe they do great damage to the testimony of the New Testament, which "de-nationalizes" the faith, or more accurately multi-nationalizes the faith. But that's a separate topic.

60 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:25:38pm

re: #53 ralphieboy

You're right. They were brought up around the puritan lifestyle. It helps if people keep in mind that the grandparents of our founders were the ones burning witches 50 years before the declaration of independence.

61 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:25:49pm

re: #37 subsailor68

Hi krloyd! Here's kind of an interesting read on the college and the Constitution:

Constitutional Topic: The Electoral College

That's good stuff. It just proves you can't be an "originalist" with the Bible. I'm actually not against the EC; it would be a shame if the politicians for national office only had to pander to a dozen large cities. That tyranny of the majority partly lead to the War Between The States.

OTOH, in the dozen countries who we "helped" by spreading democracy, we have never once suggested it to other nations.

62 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:25:55pm

re: #50 RogueOne

I gave you a thumbs-up but this portion of your post isn't quite true. "Most" were not deists, as a matter-of-fact very few of the signers of the declaration and the constitution were actually deists.

It's interesting we try to sum up a person's evolving beliefs over the course of their lives with a simple, static, "he was Christian". Samuel Taylor Coleridge is an interesting study for that. He changed his meaning for "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" repeatedly, as he went back and forth between faith and unbelief.

63 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:27:12pm

re: #60 RogueOne
They didn't burn any witches. They witch trials were in 1692.

64 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:27:24pm

re: #60 RogueOne

You're right. They were brought up around the puritan lifestyle. It helps if people keep in mind that the grandparents of our founders were the ones burning witches 50 years before the declaration of independence.

Witches were burned in Europe. In the American colonies, witches were hanged.

65 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:27:42pm

re: #60 RogueOne

You're right. They were brought up around the puritan lifestyle. It helps if people keep in mind that the grandparents of our founders were the ones burning witches 50 years before the declaration of independence.

"Mayflower Compact OK for Texas TEKs. Do not mention witch trials and with burnings hangings... Don McLeroy..."

//

66 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:28:11pm

re: #63 mr. hammer

They didn't burn any witches. They witch trials were in 1692.

I was rounding, I should have said 75 years. Either way it was just a generation previous.

67 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:28:54pm

re: #64 Alouette

Witches were burned in Europe. In the American colonies, witches were hanged.

You sure? I thought we burned a few ourselves? We miss out on everything.

68 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:29:05pm

re: #64 Alouette

Witches AND Christians burned in Europe. Lots of Christians.

69 subsailor68  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:29:07pm

re: #61 keloyd

That's good stuff. It just proves you can't be an "originalist" with the Bible. I'm actually not against the EC; it would be a shame if the politicians for national office only had to pander to a dozen large cities. That tyranny of the majority partly lead to the War Between The States.

OTOH, in the dozen countries who we "helped" by spreading democracy, we have never once suggested it to other nations.

What an interesting (and accurate) observation. I need to think about that. It probably has something to do with the lack of individual "states" like our Founders were dealing with, although I suppose "provinces" in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan might be similar. Great point - I need to give that some thought. Maybe some other folks here have some ideas.

70 Ericus58  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:29:23pm

I noticed a Freetoken downding on an article linked from the Times Online - Climate change being the gist of it.

Hey Free, did you even read it? Because once you get past the headline, I came away with this toward the end of the article:

"Kevin Trenberth, a lead author of the chapter of the IPCC report that deals with the observed temperature changes, said he accepted there were problems with the global thermometer record but these had been accounted for in the final report.

“It’s not just temperature rises that tell us the world is warming,” he said. “We also have physical changes like the fact that sea levels have risen around five inches since 1972, the Arctic icecap has declined by 40% and snow cover in the northern hemisphere has declined.”

The European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts has recently issued a new set of global temperature readings covering the past 30 years, with thermometer readings augmented by satellite data.

Dr Vicky Pope, head of climate change advice at the Met Office, said: “This new set of data confirms the trend towards rising global temperatures and suggest that, if anything, the world is warming even more quickly than we had thought.” "

Perhaps one should read the material before doing a knee-jerk response, thinking that's the best way to stifle what appears to be against your beliefs.

71 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:29:24pm

Thin whole thing's a buncha hooey!

The United States of America is as close to a Masonic republic as can be found.

72 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:29:25pm

re: #9 keloyd

Competent and honest history books will never reach public school children. In the 90's, when the left had better organized activists, the founding fathers got less ink than Harriet Tubman and protesters of the 60s. Coverage of WW2 gave as much space to the Japanese internment as every battle put together. Now the right is pushing its agenda onto the choice and spin of facts in the textbooks.
.

I don't believe so, and I grew up in the '90s.

We spent at least months on WWII, and then it was as if US History just kind of stopped after that. It was ridiculous, hardly anyone my age knew anything about Soviet Russia or the Cold War. Maybe that was the liberal bias?

73 Ps2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:29:40pm

America's God and Country - Encyclopedia of Quotations


Softcover

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Hardcover

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845 p.

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Author: William J. Federer

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DO YOU KNOW WHO SAID THE FOLLOWING?

1. "I believe that the next half century will determine if we will advance the cause of Christian civilization or revert to the horrors of brutal paganism."
2. "Education is useless without the Bible."
3. "Let every Student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life."
4. "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances ... could have been formed by natural selections, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
5. "Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for man to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence."
6. "Whoever shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world."
7. "If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a Nation gone under."

ANSWERS: 1. President Theodore Roosevelt 2. Noah Webster 3. Harvard University, 1642 4. Charles Darwin 5. Martin Luther King, Jr. 6. Benjamin Franklin 7. President Ronald Reagan

These astounds quotes are only a few of the thousands in America's God And Country Encyclopedia Of Quotations. This comprehensive 845-page reference tool includes over 2,100 quotations from nearly 700 sources highlighting America's noble heritage. Complete with footnotes and illustrations, this book is a valuable resource to individuals in any occupation or endeavor.

In America's God And Country Encyclopedia Of Quotations you'll find quotes such as ...

"History fails to record a single precedent in which nations subject to moral decay have not passed into political and economic decline." -General Douglas MacArthur

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

"The New Testament is the very best book that ever was or ever will be known in the world." -Charles Dickens

"Why, then, should we who believe in Christ be so surprised at what God can do with a willing man in a laboratory? Some things must be baffling to the critic who has never been born again." -George Washington Carver

"But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious Hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own." - President Abraham Lincoln

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." -United States Supreme Court 1892, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States

"All must admit that the reception of the teachings of Christ results in the purest patriotism, in the most scrupulous fidehty to public trust, and in the best type of citizenship." -President Grover Cleveland

"Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America win cease to be great." -Alexis de Tocqueville

74 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:29:47pm

re: #68 mr. hammer

Witches AND Christians burned in Europe. Lots of Christians.

Lots of Jews too. Muslims, even.

75 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:30:29pm

re: #73 Ps2

You need to work on your formatting and preview before posting stuff like that.

76 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:30:35pm

re: #74 Alouette

Lots of Jews too. Muslims, even.

Matinee acts.

77 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:31:42pm

re: #73 Ps2

I tried to click on Add To Cart and it wouldn't let me. Did you mean to put your credit card # in that post?

78 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:31:44pm

re: #64 Alouette

Witches were burned in Europe. In the American colonies, witches were hanged.

You're correct. We crushed one and hung the others.

79 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:32:05pm

re: #9 keloyd

Competent and honest history books will never reach public school children. In the 90's, when the left had better organized activists, the founding fathers got less ink than Harriet Tubman and protesters of the 60s. Coverage of WW2 gave as much space to the Japanese internment as every battle put together. Now the right is pushing its agenda onto the choice and spin of facts in the textbooks.

Ask any Muslim or Chinese person and he will tell you the US is part of Christendom.

Nothing ever changes.

Uh what? This wasn't even remotely true in any of my high school history classes, and I was in high school from 1991 to 1994. We did many units on the effects of WW2, we spent a long time on the holocaust, we addressed the Japanese Internment, but it was a very small part of our WW2 cirrculum.

80 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:32:12pm

re: #50 RogueOne

I base the deist ascertain on the fact that many of the founders were freemasons, and freemasonry at that point had changed from a distinctly Christian organization to a deistic one early that century (1720ish). Now some otherwise solid Christians were also masons, but that was always a tension that many churches (to this day) have tried to address. Washington always spoke of a generic deity, and even if other founders spoke of "Christianity" they generally meant its morals and not its theological distinctives. That's makes it so confusing to so many, Christians included.

81 ps2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:33:33pm

re: #77 cliffster

no

82 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:34:01pm

re: #69 subsailor68

By the time we were spreading democracy, vote results were no longer distributed by horseback or horse carriage.

83 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:34:18pm

re: #79 WindUpBird

Uh what? This wasn't even remotely true in any of my high school history classes, and I was in high school from 1991 to 1994. We did many units on the effects of WW2, we spent a long time on the holocaust, we addressed the Japanese Internment, but it was a very small part of our WW2 cirrculum.

also, I remember Harriet Tubman in elementary school, not so much in high school. '60s protests? I think having a conservative Vietnam Vet as a teacher, we learned quite a bit there... but not from some flowery liberal perspective.

84 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:34:18pm

re: #79 WindUpBird

Uh what? This wasn't even remotely true in any of my high school history classes, and I was in high school from 1991 to 1994. We did many units on the effects of WW2, we spent a long time on the holocaust, we addressed the Japanese Internment, but it was a very small part of our WW2 cirrculum.

Agreed. I graduated in 2000 and I don't agree at all with keloyd's assessment. In fact, most of our WWII curriculum was about the events leading up to the war, then the holocaust, then the war itself. Internment camps didn't get an incredible amount of time, if memory serves....

85 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:34:31pm

We only hanged the uppity ones though. IIRC, if you played along, put on an act of repentance, and confessed to a big mound of nonsense, you could live. It was the ones who were all about telling the truth and being idealistic about it who didn't back down. Only they got killed, as a rule, as I recall. It's like nowadays when you can't afford a good lawyer and have to cop a plea. There's justice, then there's what is the smart thing to do.

86 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:34:31pm

re: #9 keloyd

Competent and honest history books will never reach public school children. In the 90's, when the left had better organized activists, the founding fathers got less ink than Harriet Tubman and protesters of the 60s. Coverage of WW2 gave as much space to the Japanese internment as every battle put together. Now the right is pushing its agenda onto the choice and spin of facts in the textbooks.

Ask any Muslim or Chinese person and he will tell you the US is part of Christendom.

Nothing ever changes.

Also, we studied Harriet Tubman, but the founding fathers got WAAAY more ink and more attention in my classes, some of which were advanced placement.

87 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:34:48pm

re: #80 Irenicum

I base the deist ascertain on the fact that many of the founders were freemasons, and freemasonry at that point had changed from a distinctly Christian organization to a deistic one early that century (1720ish). Now some otherwise solid Christians were also masons, but that was always a tension that many churches (to this day) have tried to address. Washington always spoke of a generic deity, and even if other founders spoke of "Christianity" they generally meant its morals and not its theological distinctives. That's makes it so confusing to so many, Christians included.

See my #71. That was one of the chief things that amazed me once I was raised up as a Mason, was how familiar it all was. It took me some time before I realized that the familiarity I was feeling was the result of the success of the Masonic Founders in setting up this country.

The nation is more or less ecumenical, mildly Theist or Deist in its "official" culture, and broadly tolerant.

88 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:34:53pm

re: #60 RogueOne

You're right. They were brought up around the puritan lifestyle. It helps if people keep in mind that the grandparents of our founders were the ones burning witches 50 years before the declaration of independence.

I got better.

89 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:35:14pm

re: #83 Vambo

also, I remember Harriet Tubman in elementary school, not so much in high school. '60s protests? I think having a conservative Vietnam Vet as a teacher, we learned quite a bit there... but not from some flowery liberal perspective.

yeah, this all smacks of THE LEFT DID IT TOO, SEE?!?!?! tu quoque stuff.

90 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:35:25pm

re: #88 MandyManners

it was only a matter of time

92 subsailor68  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:36:22pm

re: #82 Rightwingconspirator

By the time we were spreading democracy, vote results were no longer distributed by horseback or horse carriage.

LOL! Good point. Not here perhaps, but probably still the transportation of choice in some areas of Iraq and Afghanistan.

;-)

93 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:36:27pm

Texas is not the only state in which the action is becoming rather heated:

In Utah, a plan to cut 12th grade

The proposal by state Sen. Chris Buttars would chip away at Utah's $700-million shortfall. He's since offered a toned-down version: Just make senior year optional.

[...]

The sudden buzz over the relative value of senior year stems from a recent proposal by state Sen. Chris Buttars that Utah make a dent in its budget gap by eliminating the 12th grade.

The notion quickly gained some traction among supporters who agreed with the Republican's assessment that many seniors frittered away their final year of high school, but faced vehement opposition from other quarters, [...]

Buttars has since toned down the idea, suggesting instead that senior year become optional for students who complete their required credits early. He estimated the move could save up to $60 million, the Salt Lake Tribune reported.

[...]

So, you might say, tough economic times require tough decisions, or something like that. Yeah, but you have to know something about the state Senator Chris Buttars:

During the 2006 General Session of the 56th Utah State Legislature Buttars sponsored S.B. 96, an Intelligent Design Bill. The bill would allow instructors to teach students that evolution is a controversial theory and counter it with the pseudoscience of Creationism, using the term "Divine Design."[4] The New York Times called the bill "Anti-Darwin" and critics have pointed to Buttars' words "Divine Design" as evidence for its religious undertow. [...]

In a January 2009 interview with openly gay documentary filmmaker Reed Cowan, for the documentary 8: The Mormon Proposition, Buttars said that gays and lesbians were "the greatest threat to America going down," comparing members of the LGBT community to radical Muslims. "I believe they will destroy the foundation of the American society," he said.[17] [...]

He's also made some notedly racists remarks.

Public Education: it's on the chopping block if the RR can't remold it into what they want.

94 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:36:31pm

re: #80 Irenicum
Washington saw the hand of the Almighty at work during the revolution, and said so. A Deist would not have viewed it that way.

95 badger1970  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:36:49pm

re: #38 keloyd

It means the Kindles in the hands of the students has a life expectancy of one week.

re: #72 Vambo

Your US History class actually got to WWII?

96 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:36:52pm

re: #73 Ps2

Wow - an entire book of misquotes and distortions. And that people charge money for. Who woulda thunk people would swallow such bilge?

97 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:37:25pm

re: #63 mr. hammer

They didn't burn any witches. They witch trials were in 1692.

Didn't one or two get pressed to death?

98 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:37:49pm

LOL Donald Trump, AGW-denier: [Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

99 ps2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:38:06pm

so you've read the book and the original sources?

100 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:38:52pm

re: #97 MandyManners

One man. I just returned from Salem myself and heard the story.

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:38:53pm

re: #99 ps2

so you've read the book and the original sources?

Hey, troll. How's it going? If I answer three of your questions, do I get a shiny gold egg?

102 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:39:25pm

re: #90 cliffster

it was only a matter of time

I loves me some Monty.

103 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:39:52pm

re: #72 Vambo

Your US History class actually got to WWII?

LOL. In every U.S. history class I ever took, we never made it past the 70's, if even that. The textbook went to the 90's, as did the curriculum, but we were always way behind by then.

104 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:39:57pm

re: #99 ps2

so you've read the book and the original sources?

Why don't you paste the entire contents of the book into a comment so we can read it?

105 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:40:06pm

re: #99 ps2

I've read most of the original source, yes. And the quotes, as presented by you, are pure bullshit. Some are outright lies.

There's this thing called Google; you could use it yourself to check. I'm guessing you won't, however - it seems very important to you to believe that this bong water is pure.

106 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:40:22pm

re: #89 WindUpBird

yeah, this all smacks of THE LEFT DID IT TOO, SEE?!?!?! tu quoque stuff.

it does.

this new revisionism of omitting anyone who doesn't fit the conservative ideal is over the top. I suppose kids are going to spend a week studying Newt Gingrich and the Heritage Foundation (OMFG are you serious?!), but Anne Hutchinson and Emma Goldman never existed, amirite?

107 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:40:51pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

I've never quite understood, if the founding fathers intended this to be a nation founded on the Christian religion, then why did they sign and ratify a treaty that asserted the exact opposite in no uncertain terms?

Good find.

Maybe they were tired of the religious wars ravaging Europe.

108 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:41:57pm

re: #99 ps2

so you've read the book and the original sources?

Pardon?

109 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:42:18pm

re: #100 mr. hammer

One man. I just returned from Salem myself and heard the story.

I'd love to tour that region.

110 theliel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:42:37pm

re: #100 mr. hammer

One man. I just returned from Salem myself and heard the story.


ANd he was only pressed for not entering a plea.
(these sorts of shenanigans are where needing self-incrimination protections come from)

111 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:43:19pm

Windupbird, Vambo, Soap_man -
What I'm hearing is you and I were all in hs within the space of a decade, and all had a wide spread of both what was emphasized and the competence of our history teachers/coaches teaching history part time. I stand by my point, all history since it was written with birds and squiggles and people with dog-heads on Egyptian tombs is 90% spin. The direction depends on who just grabbed power from whom. Show me someone who knows some good and proper history and I'll show you someone who read a whole lot beyond textbooks. In any event, no one in this 'Christian' nation is willing to pay me for my blog-fu, so I gotta get to work.

112 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:43:19pm

re: #70 Ericus58

Down dinged your comment for arrogantly assuming I don't know what I'm doing when I'm dinging away...

That article is written by the Telegraph's Jonathan Leake, whose recent attempts at discussing AGW is akin to the TEACH THE CONTROVERSY approach so common by the anti-science types (of all stripes, on various topics.) Given the first person mentioned by Leake is John Christie it becomes rather obvious where Leake is going.

113 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:43:22pm

re: #70 Ericus58

I noticed a Freetoken downding on an article linked from the Times Online - Climate change being the gist of it.

Perhaps one should read the material before doing a knee-jerk response, thinking that's the best way to stifle what appears to be against your beliefs.

What's interesting to me is that ignorant deniers are now refraining from participating in discussion threads about climate change, where their nonsensical talking points are exposed, and instead post links to distorted propaganda like that Times article.

114 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:43:27pm

re: #109 MandyManners

I'd love to tour that region.

Beautiful harbor and customs house they've got up there. Don't forget to visit the House fo the 7 Gables while up there.

A nice town, and exactly as high-brow or low-brow (eg, witch-kitsch) as you want it to be.

115 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:44:04pm

re: #98 WindUpBird

I waited all weekend to see if you had seen this video and you were never around. It hurt my feelings.//

Now that we're passed 100 posts I can post this:

Rock Sugar:

116 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:44:30pm

re: #91 goddamnedfrank

I've never quite understood, if the founding fathers intended this to be a nation founded on the Christian religion, then why did they sign and ratify a treaty that asserted the exact opposite in no uncertain terms?

What's quite shocking is how little these "Texas Board of Education" folks actually know about American history. Sad and scary, really.

117 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:44:40pm

re: #103 Soap_Man

Your US History class actually got to WWII?


LOL. In every U.S. history class I ever took, we never made it past the 70's, if even that. The textbook went to the 90's, as did the curriculum, but we were always way behind by then.

yeah, I don't think we made it past the '70s either. That was when our teacher starting telling us 'Nam war stories for most of the class.

They actually don't spend much time covering the founding fathers, as most kids learn about that in grammar school. Of course, when you're that age it's all whitewashed and stupid with stuff like the Abe Lincoln "cherry tree" story, but it's a start nonetheless.

118 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:44:50pm

re: #112 freetoken

Meant Times, not Telegraph.

/too many newspapers start with "T"...

119 Jadespring  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:44:58pm

OT. Some doofus, elseboard is trying to argue that 'Tea Party' politics is representative of a moderate and middle of the road political viewpoint that sits between the Dem side and the GOP side. His logic is that since it's supposedly supported by lots of 'independents' meaning people who identify with neither party and 'independents' are always looked on as being middle sitters then ergo tea partiers are moderates politically.

120 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:45:53pm

re: #117 Vambo

+ for cherry tree ;)

121 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:46:02pm

re: #114 Guanxi88

Then continue up north to Cape Ann. Beautiful.

122 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:46:58pm

re: #111 keloyd

Windupbird, Vambo, Soap_man -
What I'm hearing is you and I were all in hs within the space of a decade, and all had a wide spread of both what was emphasized and the competence of our history teachers/coaches teaching history part time. I stand by my point, all history since it was written with birds and squiggles and people with dog-heads on Egyptian tombs is 90% spin. The direction depends on who just grabbed power from whom. Show me someone who knows some good and proper history and I'll show you someone who read a whole lot beyond textbooks. In any event, no one in this 'Christian' nation is willing to pay me for my blog-fu, so I gotta get to work.

I think you are wildly exaggerating the notion that there's some mysterious leftist influence that de-emphasizes real history. I don't believe it's true. OF COURSE you get better history from finding great sources on your own. That's not the same thing as claiming we didn't study battles of WWII. ;-) Hell, my 300-level college courses on art history didn't scratch the surface of what I wanted to learn, so I struck out and learned on my own.

123 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:47:27pm

re: #114 Guanxi88

lol do they actually sell witch-burning tchotkes there? Thats funny and awful >

124 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:47:45pm

re: #117 Vambo

yeah, I don't think we made it past the '70s either. That was when our teacher starting telling us 'Nam war stories for most of the class.

They actually don't spend much time covering the founding fathers, as most kids learn about that in grammar school. Of course, when you're that age it's all whitewashed and stupid with stuff like the Abe Lincoln "cherry tree" story, but it's a start nonetheless.

Uh - it's the George Washington "Cherry Tree" story. Abe Lincoln is the one with the "Log Cabin" story.

125 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:48:51pm

re: #124 SixDegrees

Uh - it's the George Washington "Cherry Tree" story. Abe Lincoln is the one with the "Log Cabin" story.

What's the "Log Cabin" story? That he slept in the same bed with other guys? NTTAWWT.

126 subsailor68  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:49:09pm

re: #117 Vambo

yeah, I don't think we made it past the '70s either. That was when our teacher starting telling us 'Nam war stories for most of the class.

They actually don't spend much time covering the founding fathers, as most kids learn about that in grammar school. Of course, when you're that age it's all whitewashed and stupid with stuff like the Abe Lincoln "cherry tree" story, but it's a start nonetheless.

LOL! I guess they didn't spend much time, since the cherry tree thing was George Washington, not Lincoln! (Probably your very point!)

;-)

127 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:49:15pm

re: #115 RogueOne

ahahahahahahaha it hurts my brain I love it :D

128 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:49:22pm

re: #112 freetoken

Down dinged your comment for arrogantly assuming I don't know what I'm doing when I'm dinging away...

That article is written by the Telegraph's Jonathan Leake, whose recent attempts at discussing AGW is akin to the TEACH THE CONTROVERSY approach so common by the anti-science types (of all stripes, on various topics.) Given the first person mentioned by Leake is John Christie it becomes rather obvious where Leake is going.

I read the article, which was mostly devoted to anti AGW hysteria, and the section at the end which was mostly quotes was just their disclaimer so they could say they are presenting both views. The paras devoted to bullshit far outnumbered that small segment at the end.

129 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:49:25pm

What is it about Texas School Boards? Do they meet right after church in Hallelujah mode?

130 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:49:25pm

As a newcomer to the north shore of Boston, I've only been to Salem a couple of times. Can't wait for the warmer weather to visit it more often. And local rte 127 out to Gloucester is stunning. It's such a beautiful area.

131 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:50:13pm

re: #130 Irenicum

As a newcomer to the north shore of Boston, I've only been to Salem a couple of times. Can't wait for the warmer weather to visit it more often. And local rte 127 out to Gloucester is stunning. It's such a beautiful area.

Easily some of the most beautiful coast-line this side of Heaven.

132 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:50:25pm

Since the topic of AGW has come up again, and I threw Utah into this mix, it might be a good time to note that last week the Utah House passed (overwhelmingly, in the Republican dominated body) Utah Joint Resolution 12

CLIMATE CHANGE JOINT RESOLUTION

[...]

WHEREAS, global temperatures have been level and declining in some areas over the
30 past 12 years;
31 WHEREAS, the "hockey stick" global warming assertion has been discredited and
32 climate alarmists' carbon dioxide-related global warming hypothesis is unable to account for
33 the current downturn in global temperatures;
34 WHEREAS, there is a statistically more direct correlation between twentieth century
35 temperature rise and Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) in the atmosphere than CO2;
36 WHEREAS, outlawed and largely phased out by 1978, in the year 2000 CFC's began to
37 decline at approximately the same time as global temperatures began to decline;
38 WHEREAS, emails and other communications between climate researchers around the
39 globe, referred to as "Climategate," indicate a well organized and ongoing effort to manipulate
40 H. [ and incorporate "tricks" related to ] .H global temperature data in order to produce a global
41 warming outcome;
[...]

And so on and so forth (it's a litany of standard FoxNation-type claims).

The institutionalization of ignorance, I'm calling it.

The Utah (GOP dominated) body politic putting on display their anti-knowledge, atavistic attitudes, and writing it into the record.

133 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:50:49pm

re: #123 windsagio

lol do they actually sell witch-burning tchotkes there? Thats funny and awful >

No 'cause no witches were burned in Salem, but you can buy books on witchcraft, wands, amulets, and various rare herbs...

134 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:51:32pm

re: #133 mr. hammer

No 'cause no witches were burned in Salem, but you can buy books on witchcraft, wands, amulets, and various rare herbs...

Do they sell eyes of newts and toes of frogs?

/

135 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:51:48pm

re: #122 WindUpBird

Its funny, one of the truisms we hear today is made up of 'history is written by the victors', to the point that we automatically distrust history teaching, no matter what.

The fact is, that while htere is always some bias in the writing, for the last several decades we've put a strong emphasis (some would say over-emphasis: See mainstream acceptance of Civil War revisionism) on trying to weed that bias out of our history.

Outside of places like Texas, the teaching is better than it is worse, and is in general getting better.

136 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:52:07pm

re: #134 Gus 802

that sort of thing, yes.

137 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:52:30pm

re: #127 WindUpBird

Reminds me of Steele Panther. They put some money into that video, I thought it was hilarious but my wife didn't get it at all.

138 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:52:33pm

re: #117 Vambo

yeah, I don't think we made it past the '70s either. That was when our teacher starting telling us 'Nam war stories for most of the class.

They actually don't spend much time covering the founding fathers, as most kids learn about that in grammar school. Of course, when you're that age it's all whitewashed and stupid with stuff like the Abe Lincoln "cherry tree" story, but it's a start nonetheless.

The last HS social studies class I had was taught by a guy who was pretty conservative. (He delivered such lines like "Republicans are like referees whose only job it is to keep people from breaking the rules. Democrats are like mommy, who pat your butt and wipe the snot off your nose for you." There was little question which party he preferred.)

For the 60's, he asked us to dress like hippies and come up with hippie names (mine was Moonsilver.) He basically spent a month using this "teaching tool" as a way to make fun of hippies. We never made it to the 70's.

139 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:52:39pm

re: #133 mr. hammer

So its like going to Glastonbury, but in the US?

Still awesome >>

140 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:52:43pm

In spinoffs up top is a great editorial from the Austin Statesman on the upcoming election, recommended reading if you are in Texas.

[Link: www.statesman.com...]

141 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:53:27pm

re: #92 subsailor68

Afghanistan has a unique exit poll. Count the Asses. I mean donkeys. No not Democrats, real Donkeys... :)

142 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:53:44pm

re: #93 freetoken

At least we have a Democratic administration that wants to improve education. I don't know how far he (Obama) will get with it. He's done a few things with greater access to community college and the Duncan/Sharpton/Gingrich tour giving schools more funding for computers and such, and trying to get parents involved with education.

Anyway, depending on where the economy and healthcare issues go, I'd hope he can spend more attention to education.

143 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:54:00pm

re: #138 Soap_Man

For the 60's, he asked us to dress like hippies and come up with hippie names (mine was Moonsilver.) He basically spent a month using this "teaching tool" as a way to make fun of hippies. We never made it to the 70's.

Well, I think:

1) Moonsilver is an excellent self-given hippy name. Very good, indeed
2) The 70's would have been too hard to critique with ridicule - the experience is still too new, raw, and disturbing.

144 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:54:14pm

re: #125 Alouette

free upding for anyone who knows the real term for 'thigh sex'!

145 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:54:50pm

re: #144 windsagio

free upding for anyone who knows the real term for 'thigh sex'!

frottage, isn't it?

146 ps2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:55:12pm

Check out the original documents....

Subject: God in your state Constitution !!!!

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING! After you check your state(s), look at the last
sentence or two.

America's founders did not intend for there to be a separation of God and
state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their
state constitutions:

Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the
favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following
Constitution ..

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to
those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ..

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to
Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful
to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California,
grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence
for the Supreme Ruler of Universe .

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
dictates
of
their consciences .

Florida 1845, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to
Almighty God for our constitutional liberty ... establish this
Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine
Guidance . establish this Constitution

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings ..

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful
to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath
so
long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our
endeavors
.

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to
Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of
government
..

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the
Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence
on Him for a continuation of these blessings ... establish this Constitution

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God
for our civil and religious privileges . establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to
Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful
to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy ..

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine .. acknowledging with grateful
hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us
an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful
to Almighty God or our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts,
acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of
the
Universe...

147 shiplord kirel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:55:22pm

Our local BSOE rep, Bob Craig, is a Republican but not one of these Bible-thumping nutburgers. He is being absolutely vilified in some of the local media for his stance against creationism and historical revisionism. He is routinely called a RINO and even *gasp* a liberal.
I have to wonder what leads Bob to put up with this abuse. He doesn't need power or influence, since he has a very sucessful law practice. He may decide that it just isn't worth it and decide not to run again when his term expires. That will leave his seat ripe for the picking by the well-organized socon machine here in West Texas.

148 Buck  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:55:30pm

OT:
Would you like bacon with that?

Becoming vegetarian 'can harm the environment'
Adopting a vegetarian diet based around meat substitutes such as tofu can cause more damage to the environment, according to a new study.


[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

149 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:55:45pm

re: #145 Guanxi88

no thats rubbing up against people. Sticking your unit between someones thighs is called something else I think.


I don't even know how to begin looking it up.

Upding anyways :p

150 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:55:55pm

re: #138 Soap_Man

The last HS social studies class I had was taught by a guy who was pretty conservative. (He delivered such lines like "Republicans are like referees whose only job it is to keep people from breaking the rules. Democrats are like mommy, who pat your butt and wipe the snot off your nose for you." There was little question which party he preferred.)

For the 60's, he asked us to dress like hippies and come up with hippie names (mine was Moonsilver.) He basically spent a month using this "teaching tool" as a way to make fun of hippies. We never made it to the 70's.

I want a Hippie name!
I'm picking moondust

151 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:56:01pm

re: #143 Guanxi88

Well, I think:

1) Moonsilver is an excellent self-given hippy name. Very good, indeed
2) The 70's would have been too hard to critique with ridicule - the experience is still too new, raw, and disturbing.

/but we still have the 8-tracks to prove it...

152 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:56:09pm

re: #146 ps2

- for posting a 'PLEASE FORWARD THIS!!!!' email.

153 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:56:10pm

re: #142 marjoriemoon

As I've mentioned before, I'm quite open to the idea of major reforms in public education. I would prefer if the local communities and States led the way, versus a Federal mandate, but something must be done to find a way to help young people get a productive start to life, while at the same time understanding that funding is limited.

154 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:56:11pm

re: #149 windsagio

no thats rubbing up against people. Sticking your unit between someones thighs is called something else I think.

I don't even know how to begin looking it up.

Upding anyways :p

There's a japanese name for it, which also escapes me.

155 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:57:12pm

re: #119 Jadespring

Wishful thinking there, big time.

156 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:57:34pm

re: #146 ps2

S.P.A.M.

157 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:57:38pm

re: #154 Guanxi88

I mention it because thats the intercourse generally mentioned in regards to lincoln. It was pretty common on the west, no women y'know.


Also; The '70s are a massively wrongly maligned decade. Amazing music and general personal expression, as well as some of the most interesting politics in US history.

158 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:58:12pm

Downding for proselytizing the Dominionist cause.

159 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:58:26pm

re: #148 Buck

OT:
Would you like bacon with that?

Becoming vegetarian 'can harm the environment'
Adopting a vegetarian diet based around meat substitutes such as tofu can cause more damage to the environment, according to a new study.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Yeah, and did you read the part about where it was about Britain, because they don't have the land to grow the grain (beans) crops?

160 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:58:31pm

re: #157 windsagio

Also; The '70s are a massively wrongly maligned decade. Amazing music and general personal expression, as well as some of the most interesting politics in US history.

It's the clothes and the sudden national preference for depressants.

161 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:58:50pm

re: #158 Thanos

Downding for proselytizing the Dominionist cause.

Upding for using the word "proselytizing"

162 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:59:04pm

re: #157 windsagio

Yeah, but the 70's were the decade that fashion forgot.

163 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:59:10pm

re: #129 HoosierHoops

What is it about Texas School Boards? Do they meet right after church in Hallelujah mode?

Texas has had a huge amount of control over the nation's textbook purchases for a very long time - several decades, at least. And the religious right has been keenly aware of this. they have carefully maneuvered to take over control of the board which makes Texas' textbook decisions for many years, and their plans are now about to bear fruit. I believe I first heard of their plans to manipulate the national textbook market by seizing control of purchasing in Texas at least 25 years ago.

They have long term plans, clear goals and a strategy for carrying them out that is regularly updated to adjust to changing events.

On a somewhat related note, the way in which school districts review their textbooks can be appallingly bad. For a truly terrifying first-hand account of this process, as experienced by Nobel laureate Richard Feynman, see Judging Books by Their Covers. I recommend an empty stomach, and a room without heavy or sharp objects.

164 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:59:53pm

re: #160 Guanxi88

hey! Bell bottoms look great in motion, like say dancing!

165 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 12:59:57pm

Here's a quote from the US Constitution:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

166 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:00:27pm

re: #162 Irenicum

Yeah, but the 70's were the decade that fashion forgot restraint.

FTFY.

167 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:00:42pm

re: #164 windsagio

hey! Bell bottoms look great in motion, like say dancing!

White 3 piece polyester suits....

168 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:00:45pm

re: #146 ps2

You collected all the original documents and posted those phrases here singly? Or, did you C/P from an on-line source? If the latter, would you please provide a link?

169 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:00:56pm

BBL, maybe. Cya people.

170 Lidane  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:01:00pm

re: #36 loubob57

I'll probably be voting for the Dem candidates for school board this Nov.

I definitely will be.

There's a reason why I'll never vote Republican in this state, and the whackjobs on the State Board of Education are a prime example of it. I'm completely over the stranglehold these creationist far-right anti-intellectuals have on the GOP around here. It's nauseating.

171 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:01:14pm

re: #146 ps2

I'm not sure that the text of the various state constitutions has much bearing regarding the intentions of the founder's. I think the only thing codified by the founders in that regard is the first amendment. They didn't want a repeat of the Church of England here.

172 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:01:29pm

re: #166 CyanSnowHawk

FTFY.

I've seen hang gliders smaller than some of those collars.

173 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:01:37pm

re: #158 Thanos

Downding for proselytizing the Dominionist cause.

Amazing isn't it? They still come, no matter how obvious it is that they will be flatly confronted here.

174 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:01:53pm

re: #146 ps2

Gee. Spam.

175 Soap_Man  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:02:01pm

re: #143 Guanxi88

Well, I think:

1) Moonsilver is an excellent self-given hippy name. Very good, indeed
2) The 70's would have been too hard to critique with ridicule - the experience is still too new, raw, and disturbing.

I have to be honest here. I forgot to come up with a name before class, so I stole it from my brother. When he was a kid, he played D&D and that was the name of his horse (or maybe his dragon, or his troll, or some goddamn thing.)

176 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:02:01pm

re: #172 CyanSnowHawk

And ties that double as dinner napkins.

177 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:02:36pm

re: #167 HoosierHoops

thats the problem, dammit!

We reduce the 70s to 'Saturday Night Fever'!!

Supporting clip:

I can say without irony that this is amazing:

such freedom!

178 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:02:42pm

re: #143 Guanxi88

Well, I think:

1) Moonsilver is an excellent self-given hippy name. Very good, indeed
2) The 70's would have been too hard to critique with ridicule - the experience is still too new, raw, and disturbing.

Particularly the layered look, shag haircuts and Earth shoes. Which we all thought was very cool at the time.

179 AK-47%  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:03:50pm

Reply button not working, re #146.

God, as expressed in these State Constitutions, could also be taken as Allah, Buddah or the OT Jehovah. Monotheism, yes, but no mention of the Bible or Jesus.

Which simply reflects the way that the majority of people thought when these documents were written and adopted.

180 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:04:04pm

re: #176 Irenicum

And ties that double as dinner napkins.

Shirts unbuttoned to the naval and a big ugly something hanging around your neck..

181 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:04:19pm

re: #165 Thanos

What article?

182 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:04:25pm

re: #153 freetoken

As I've mentioned before, I'm quite open to the idea of major reforms in public education. I would prefer if the local communities and States led the way, versus a Federal mandate, but something must be done to find a way to help young people get a productive start to life, while at the same time understanding that funding is limited.

Well yea, but cutting the 12th grade? So they going to cram all the 12th grade stuff into the other grades or just forget about it? I thought eliminating arts and music was bad, but wow!

183 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:04:49pm

re: #181 mr. hammer

What article?

Second half of Article VI

184 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:05:11pm
185 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:05:20pm

re: #73 Ps2

From Federer's Wiki:

Federer signed a November 2009 ecumenical statement known as the Manhattan Declaration calling on evangelicals, Catholics and Orthodox not to comply with rules and laws forcing them to accept abortion, same-sex marriage and other matters that go against their religious consciences.

186 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:05:34pm

re: #178 marjoriemoon

Particularly the layered look, shag haircuts and Earth shoes. Which we all thought was very cool at the time.

I find that hard to believe ;)

187 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:06:28pm

re: #177 windsagio

I loved the guy that painted his name of his bell bottom jeans....
I'm going to try that.. You know what they say about fashion...It always comes back around

188 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:07:55pm

re: #187 HoosierHoops

I loved the guy that painted his name of his bell bottom jeans...
I'm going to try that.. You know what they say about fashion...It always comes back around

well if it still fits....

189 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:08:17pm

re: #185 MandyManners

From Federer's Wiki:

Federer signed a November 2009 ecumenical statement known as the Manhattan Declaration calling on evangelicals, Catholics and Orthodox not to comply with rules and laws forcing them to accept abortion, same-sex marriage and other matters that go against their religious consciences.

Carried to logical extremes, that's the recipe for chaos.

190 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:08:19pm

re: #187 HoosierHoops

I think people are too afraid of self-expression (or just of standing out) these days. Outside particular places, outfits like that are dead forever.

re: #188 brookly red

I'd pay money to see that >

191 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:09:08pm

re: #189 MandyManners

There's a good theological argument there tho', if no easy answers.

192 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:10:14pm

re: #190 windsagio

I think people are too afraid of self-expression (or just of standing out) these days. Outside particular places, outfits like that are dead forever.

re: #188 brookly red

I'd pay money to see that >

My mom had a Black and white checkered pill hat just like Jackie-O..

193 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:10:33pm

re: #186 cliffster

I find that hard to believe ;)

heh It was the natural look. Granny dresses. Muted colors, browns and greens which is one reason I think the 80's then went overboard with the neon colors.

194 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:10:51pm

White America was originally comprised of large numbers of European refugees from Christian religious persecution. Eventually the separation of church and state was enshrined in the constitution in 1802, thanks to great men like Madison and Jefferson. Of course they did not see fit at the same time to outlaw slavery or to grant universal suffrage.

Later, the SCOTUS considered the separation clause in 1878, and later reinforced the doctrine in a series of contentious cases starting in 1947. And the "one nation under God" issue surfaced and has been a source of controversy in the US ever since its inclusion in the pledge of allegiance in 1952.

Lately, no longer content to flaunt the separation clause with reference to a generic deity, some Christian zealots now seem eager to take the issue to the next level...by effectively discriminating against religions other than Christianity.

As if this were not divisive enough, the Islamists have lately been conducting their own special version of how state religion is done, by establishing theocratic regimes in which the separation of mosque and state is shunned and its proponents punished by stoning or decapitation.

And let's not forget tiny, little Israel, nation-child of the Holocaust; ever-handy scapegoat for world-wide anti-semitism; and the latest whipping boy for sudden convenient opponents of state-sanctioned religion.

Battle of civizations, anyone?

195 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:11:45pm

re: #182 marjoriemoon

Well, in that particular case I tried to highlight that the proponent of cutting 12th grade was also a creationist, racist, homophobe who is trying to implement his own version of theocracy in Utah.

OTOH, I'm not sure a full 12 years is necessary. In my parents' day (the Great Depression), it was rare to finish the full 12 years. My mother never finished HS (but later in life got her GED), yet she was (still is) much more literate than what I see in today's HS students/ college students. My father never went past 8th grade, yet could do trig in his head.

We have to face an unpleasant truth, one exploited greatly by the racists and other throwbacks (and thus we must be wary of whose fleet in which we might find ourselves rowing...) ... Namely this: public education has become a big experiment in social engineering, rather than a means of developing intellectual prowess or skill proficiency.

196 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:12:12pm

re: #153 freetoken

As I've mentioned before, I'm quite open to the idea of major reforms in public education. I would prefer if the local communities and States led the way, versus a Federal mandate, but something must be done to find a way to help young people get a productive start to life, while at the same time understanding that funding is limited.

Funding and government management appear to have nothing to do with it.

Several years ago, the Detroit News did an exhaustive study of factors affecting high school graduation rates. They looked at just about everything you could imagine - local tax rates, dollars per pupil, per capita income, student/teacher ratios, teen pregnancy rates and dozens of other factors, all broken down for every school district in the state and subjected to multivariate analysis to identify those factors which strongly correlated with high graduation rates and those which didn't.

The rather surprising answer was...hardly any of them made any difference. Especially funding rates. The Detroit School District, by far the largest recipient of dollars and the highest per pupil spending, had the absolute worst outcomes, with an abysmal graduation rate, while districts receiving far less money per pupil often did extremely well.

The only factor which had a significant influence on graduation rates was the level of parent education. Kids whose parents had more education had higher graduation rates, across the board, consistent from district to district and independent of all other factors examined. Kids from two-parent households had a weaker correlation with success, but still significant, and even in those case, the combined level of their parent's educational background was a strong predictor of success as measured by high school graduation rates.

I don't know how you manage to bring such an outcome about. But tossing money at the problem is not the answer.

197 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:12:16pm

re: #194 Spare O'Lake

Sorry, what happened in 1802?

198 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:12:17pm

re: #193 marjoriemoon

watching these Soul Train videos, these folks weren't much into muted colors and grannie dresses ;)

199 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:12:18pm

re: #193 marjoriemoon

heh It was the natural look. Granny dresses. Muted colors, browns and greens which is one reason I think the 80's then went overboard with the neon colors.

I had an orange crushed Velvet suit..
I looked good!
*wink*

200 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:12:39pm

re: #193 marjoriemoon

heh It was the natural look. Granny dresses. Muted colors, browns and greens which is one reason I think the 80's then went overboard with the neon colors.

The 80's - that was me. That was some bad stuff.

201 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:13:23pm

re: #199 HoosierHoops

Leisure suit

202 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:13:29pm

re: #191 windsagio

There's a good theological argument there tho', if no easy answers.

Where in the Bible are we told to disobey the law?

203 That's Holier Than Thou To Thee  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:14:19pm

This nation was not only founded by Christians but the original Constitution (as ratified by the first 13 states) had a clause in it that made non-papist Christianity the official religion of the United States.

What? You demand a link to a credible source? Fine.

204 shiplord kirel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:15:07pm

re: #146 ps2

America's founders did not intend for there to be a separation of God and
state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their
state constitutions:

And references to God in the preamble prove this? Sheesh, this is a new low in theocrat pidgin-logic.
Crack dealers are known to accept money with "In God We Trust" printed on it. Does this make their enterprise a Christian activity?

205 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:15:09pm

re: #202 MandyManners

I'm not making the argument, I'm more saying the argument has been made many times, and its always interesting to see :p

/to answer: Nowhere I know of.

206 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:15:30pm

re: #203 That's Holier Than Thou To Thee

This nation was not only founded by Christians but the original Constitution (as ratified by the first 13 states) had a clause in it that made non-papist Christianity the official religion of the United States.

What? You demand a link to a credible source? Fine.

EXCELLENT!

207 theheat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:15:49pm

It would appear because there are so many Christians in Texas, they've decided to railroad anyone and everyone else into conforming to their world view. Numbers matter, and when you get enough Christians out to vote, right or wrong, legal or not, it's easy to see who else gets trampled.

Gay, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Wiccan, agnostic, atheist... all grist for the progressive Christian mill.

It isn't about education, it's about power. The Christian coalition thrives on that shit, and the minute they're called on it, the tears start flowing and their endless supply of straw men pop up from behind the bushes.

208 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:15:49pm

re: #203 That's Holier Than Thou To Thee

awesome

209 subsailor68  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:15:55pm

re: #202 MandyManners

Where in the Bible are we told to disobey the law?

Quite clearly in Exodus, when Moses, seeing the Red Sea, with the Egyptians closing in behind, looks at the waters and says "Barges? We don't need no stinkin' barges!"

Or am I thinking of something else? Hmmm.

210 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:16:20pm

re: #205 windsagio

I'm not making the argument, I'm more saying the argument has been made many times, and its always interesting to see :p

/to answer: Nowhere I know of.

How can it be a theological argument if it is not based on the founding document?

211 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:16:23pm

re: #195 freetoken

Well, in that particular case I tried to highlight that the proponent of cutting 12th grade was also a creationist, racist, homophobe who is trying to implement his own version of theocracy in Utah.

OTOH, I'm not sure a full 12 years is necessary. In my parents' day (the Great Depression), it was rare to finish the full 12 years. My mother never finished HS (but later in life got her GED), yet she was (still is) much more literate than what I see in today's HS students/ college students. My father never went past 8th grade, yet could do trig in his head.

We have to face an unpleasant truth, one exploited greatly by the racists and other throwbacks (and thus we must be wary of whose fleet in which we might find ourselves rowing...) ... Namely this: public education has become a big experiment in social engineering, rather than a means of developing intellectual prowess or skill proficiency.

I remember going to high school and having the option to have "accelerated classes" that would complete the required credits by the end of the 11th grade & also the "advanced placement" option of taking classes that counted as credits in the state university system in the 12th grade.

212 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:16:26pm

re: #197 mr. hammer

Sorry, what happened in 1802?

Jefferson's famous letter to the Danbury Baptists about "a wall of separation".

213 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:16:36pm

re: #146 ps2

God Damn It!!! - SixDegrees, 15 February, 2010, several times, before lunch.

214 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:17:58pm

re: #210 MandyManners

Alot of traditions and theological points aren't in the Bible, and thats leaving out other religions.

/what are we disagreeing about?

215 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:18:02pm

re: #187 HoosierHoops

I loved the guy that painted his name of his bell bottom jeans...
I'm going to try that.. You know what they say about fashion...It always comes back around

I have this book I got for $.50 at a yard sale. I think it's called "Blue Jeans", put out in the 70s by Levi Strauss Co (it's in my closet lol). They had a contest, send us your most far-out jeans. It's a cocktail table book with a short history of jeans in the front and then the rest are pictures from all over the country.

The jeans are painted, crocheted, knitted, stitched, rhinestoned, studded, riveted, feathered. Jeans vests, bowties, hats, shorts, bathing suits. Some of THE most beautiful designs imaginable.

There's a religious theme with some, very interesting. Embroidered or cross-stitched designs of Creation, with the tree of knowledge up the leg and Adam and Eve at either side. Beautiful. Same, I think with Noah's ark and the animals. Very inspiring if you're a craft person.

216 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:18:33pm

re: #209 subsailor68

Quite clearly in Exodus, when Moses, seeing the Red Sea, with the Egyptians closing in behind, looks at the waters and says "Barges? We don't need no stinkin' barges!"

Or am I thinking of something else? Hmmm.

Something else.


217 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:18:45pm

re: #146 ps2

Which God? Humanity has...thousands.
;)

218 mr. hammer  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:18:55pm

re: #212 Spare O'Lake

OK, but... but they didn't cut and paste TJ's letter into the Constitution...

219 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:19:09pm

re: #214 windsagio

Alot of traditions and theological points aren't in the Bible, and thats leaving out other religions.

/what are we disagreeing about?

I didn't know we were.

220 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:20:16pm

re: #219 MandyManners

heh no problem then, I'm trying to think of an example from Christianity anyways, but I need to research to make sure I don't come up with somehting that actually is in the bible.

221 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:20:43pm

re: #195 freetoken

Well, in that particular case I tried to highlight that the proponent of cutting 12th grade was also a creationist, racist, homophobe who is trying to implement his own version of theocracy in Utah.

OTOH, I'm not sure a full 12 years is necessary. In my parents' day (the Great Depression), it was rare to finish the full 12 years. My mother never finished HS (but later in life got her GED), yet she was (still is) much more literate than what I see in today's HS students/ college students. My father never went past 8th grade, yet could do trig in his head.

We have to face an unpleasant truth, one exploited greatly by the racists and other throwbacks (and thus we must be wary of whose fleet in which we might find ourselves rowing...) ... Namely this: public education has become a big experiment in social engineering, rather than a means of developing intellectual prowess or skill proficiency.

So let's scrap it and not improve it? Unless you see improving it as not worth it. I don't. Neither can you compare what is needed in today's world academically with that of our grandparents, or even parents.

222 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:20:56pm

re: #219 MandyManners

I didn't know we were.

Right about here, I think

223 CarryOn  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:21:27pm

Left or the right hijacking of the textbooks is pathetic.

Homeschool!!!

224 webevintage  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:22:06pm

Evan Bayh needs a good smack.
Not because he is not running again, could care less, but for being all dickish about it.

225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:22:15pm

re: #218 mr. hammer

MS Word just wasn't available...

226 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:22:16pm

re: #219 MandyManners

OK got one: There is very little (nothing real I can find) in the Bible supporting the current christian model of marriage. There are certainly theological discussions about that.

/note I'm not taking a position again, just bringing up an example :p

227 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:22:32pm

re: #202 MandyManners

Where in the Bible are we told to disobey the law?

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s,” is a point that has many squirrelly interpretations.

228 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:22:35pm

re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

MS Word just wasn't available...

LOTUS, you suspect?

229 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:23:31pm

re: #220 windsagio

heh no problem then, I'm trying to think of an example from Christianity anyways, but I need to research to make sure I don't come up with somehting that actually is in the bible.

Christ Himself told us to render unto Caesar his due.

230 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:24:32pm

re: #222 Guanxi88

WTF is that?

231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:24:41pm

re: #229 MandyManners

Jesus' W2 was pretty simple...

Judas'? More complicated...

232 shiplord kirel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:24:43pm

I don't think the theocrats have given enough thought to the unintended consequences of insisting on school prayer.

233 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:25:03pm

re: #229 MandyManners

Christ Himself told us to render unto Caesar his due.

Then why do so many on the religious right disregard that?

234 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:25:05pm

re: #229 MandyManners

I think I'm answering a different question...

That being said, as frank says above, there's been a TON of theological debate on what that passage means.

235 subsailor68  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:25:06pm

re: #229 MandyManners

Christ Himself told us to render unto Caesar his due.

It's a shame he was talking to Brutus at the time.

;-)

236 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:25:27pm

re: #221 marjoriemoon

I never said anything about scrapping public education.

Rather, I was trying to point out that years is not always an indicator of quality.

In other nations there is some greater flexibility around the number of years spent in primary and secondary education.

I would like to see an emphasis on quality, not time-in-service, so to speak. Also, the overwhelmingly dominant idea that a student has to be in with here very tightly defined "peers" strikes me as counterproductive (and indeed, in the examples I shared of my parents, in the olden days mixed age classrooms in the countryside were the norm.)

237 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:25:28pm

re: #146 ps2

Wow! An actual theocrat, in the wild. We don't get many of those around here any more. Must be a drought over at Free Republic.

238 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:25:37pm

re: #207 theheat

It would appear because there are so many Christians in Texas, they've decided to railroad anyone and everyone else into conforming to their world view. Numbers matter, and when you get enough Christians out to vote, right or wrong, legal or not, it's easy to see who else gets trampled.

Gay, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Wiccan, agnostic, atheist... all grist for the progressive Christian mill.

It isn't about education, it's about power. The Christian coalition thrives on that shit, and the minute they're called on it, the tears start flowing and their endless supply of straw men pop up from behind the bushes.

Not so much. See my earlier post. Domination of the Texas schoolbook market has been a very well planned goal of the religious kooks for at least the last 25 years, and they have been making slow but steady progress during that entire interval. It has little to do with the population of Texas, and everything to do with Texas' dominance in the national schoolbook market. It was a carefully selected target, and all their work is now at a stage where it is bearing fruit.

Longer term, they will seek to introduce creationism into the science curriculum in Texas, after having had it incorporated into textbooks disseminated nationwide. Well organized, authoritative, comprehensive curricula are mother's milk to school districts, who find it much easier and cheaper to purchase (or simply adopt) an already-completed lesson plan than to develop their own. As a result, the nation's schools often wind up teaching garbage en masse, like New Math. The zealots are very aware of this, and will begin disseminating their own creationist-oriented science curricula as soon as circumstances permit.

From there - these people think very long term - it's several more steps until the nation arrives at a monolithic theocracy.

Look up the Wedge Document if you don't believe me. Most of the whole long-term plan is outlined in it.

239 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:25:54pm

re: #233 Varek Raith

because, like the rest of the Bible, its subject to interpretation. Literalists don't last long >>

240 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:25:59pm

re: #226 windsagio

OK got one: There is very little (nothing real I can find) in the Bible supporting the current christian model of marriage. There are certainly theological discussions about that.

/note I'm not taking a position again, just bringing up an example :p

Didn't Christ say that we leave our FOO to cleave to another, i.e., a spouse? Didn't He talke about adultery which implies marriage 'cause you cannot do the adulterous deed if you're not married.

241 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:26:11pm

re: #230 MandyManners

WTF is that?

Good old Bill Burroughs, narrating the adventures of Dr. Benway, with Burroughs his own funky self in the title role.

I've seen many a discussion in here that remind me of nothing so much as just such a scene of surrealistically absurd horror.

242 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:26:24pm

re: #226 windsagio

OK got one: There is very little (nothing real I can find) in the Bible supporting the current christian model of marriage. There are certainly theological discussions about that.

/note I'm not taking a position again, just bringing up an example :p

Oh, and His first miracle was performed at a wedding.

243 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:26:45pm

re: #143 Guanxi88

Well, I think:

1) Moonsilver is an excellent self-given hippy name. Very good, indeed
2) The 70's would have been too hard to critique with ridicule - the experience is still too new, raw, and disturbing.

The 70's was the worst fashion decade, ever!

244 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:26:50pm

re: #239 windsagio

because, like the rest of the Bible, its subject to interpretation. Literalists don't last long >>

Yeah, I'm just being a pain in the ass.
;)

245 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:26:56pm

re: #227 goddamnedfrank

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s,” is a point that has many squirrelly interpretations.

I was too lazy to get the full scripture. Thank you.

246 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:27:19pm

re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

*whack*

247 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:27:32pm

re: #233 Varek Raith

Then why do so many on the religious right disregard that?

Beats me.

248 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:27:42pm

re: #238 SixDegrees

Not so much. See my earlier post. Domination of the Texas schoolbook market has been a very well planned goal of the religious kooks for at least the last 25 years, and they have been making slow but steady progress during that entire interval.


Funny that the technology for e-readers and publishing on demand is going to wipe out all of those years of work for them.

249 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:28:04pm

re: #234 windsagio

I think I'm answering a different question...

That being said, as frank says above, there's been a TON of theological debate on what that passage means.

Yep.

250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:28:06pm

Not wanting to hijack, but before the firewor(k)(d)s start this afternoon/evening... little request here.

My Mom's cancer appears to have arrived for a third round... kind thoughts, prayers, etc would be appreciated.

After round two, I think she was ready to stop all the fighting...

I am going to have to support her wishes. Gonna be hard for me, just wanted to get that out there.

251 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:28:12pm

re: #146 ps2

Learn how to format after you cut and paste.

252 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:28:45pm

Smokes in the car. bbiab

253 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:28:48pm

re: #240 MandyManners

I'm reading a bunch of stuff on it right now, and it talks about divorce, but not really about multiple marriage, or premarital sex.

Really it says its better to stay away from sex altogether, but we threw that out about 6 minutes after he said it :p


/I should be careful tho', this is a case for SERIOUS theologians, which I suspect nobody on here really is.

254 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:28:58pm

re: #250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not wanting to hijack, but before the firewor(k)(d)s start this afternoon/evening... little request here.

My Mom's cancer appears to have arrived for a third round... kind thoughts, prayers, etc would be appreciated.

After round two, I think she was ready to stop all the fighting...

I am going to have to support her wishes. Gonna be hard for me, just wanted to get that out there.

Sorry to hear that, my friend.

255 Randall Gross  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:29:06pm

850 Congregations celebrate Evolution weekend

[Link: www.christianpost.com...]

It's good to remember that the religious whackjobs pushing this crap are a small but noisy and influential minority of Christendom.

256 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:29:19pm

re: #250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Best wishes and Lizardly love to thee and thine.

257 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:29:50pm

re: #253 windsagio

I know I'm sure as hell not!
:)

258 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:30:14pm

re: #250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

{FBV}

259 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:30:32pm

re: #237 Charles

Wow! An actual theocrat, in the wild. We don't get many of those around here any more. Must be a drought over at Free Republic.

It's first couple of posts (in 2005) pimped a now-defunct blog. Since then it's been religion, Joel Rosenberg, and World Nut Daily.

260 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:31:00pm

re: #242 MandyManners

Oh, and His first miracle was performed at a wedding.

Anybody that can turn 20 Vats of water into wine will always be invited to my parties.

261 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:31:29pm

re: #243 Alouette

The 70's was the worst fashion decade, ever!

What are you talking about? Platform shoes, giant hair, poofy sleeves, two-foot-wide bell bottoms - that stuff is ALL coming back, any day now!
/

262 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:31:30pm

re: #257 Varek Raith

we can get in an obnoxious-contest sometime.

I'll insist that Atheism is a religion, and you can insist.... well I'm sure theres something you can think of ;)

263 subsailor68  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:31:36pm

re: #250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not wanting to hijack, but before the firewor(k)(d)s start this afternoon/evening... little request here.

My Mom's cancer appears to have arrived for a third round... kind thoughts, prayers, etc would be appreciated.

After round two, I think she was ready to stop all the fighting...

I am going to have to support her wishes. Gonna be hard for me, just wanted to get that out there.

Hi FBV. Believe me, my prayers are with you and your Mom. Just over two years ago, my Mom made the same decision. It was hard for me to accept at the time, but she was able to be at home with her puppy and my wife and I took turns caring for her to the end. She taught me a great deal throughout my life, but her greatest lesson was in acceptance with grace and courage. Stay strong my friend.

264 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:31:51pm

re: #261 SixDegrees

its come back and left again at least once already ;)

265 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:31:51pm

BTW, when I lived in Japan two things struck me about there education system that are worthy of being copied here:

(1) NOT based on a 9-month calendar, but rather a 12 month calendar (with a major break at New Years, and with another at the end of August.)

(2) Students, as part of their required daily activities, have to be responsible for cleaning their own school/classroom, daily if possible.

266 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:31:56pm

re: #250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

{FBV and his mom}

267 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:32:01pm

re: #250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not wanting to hijack, but before the firewor(k)(d)s start this afternoon/evening... little request here.

My Mom's cancer appears to have arrived for a third round... kind thoughts, prayers, etc would be appreciated.

After round two, I think she was ready to stop all the fighting...

I am going to have to support her wishes. Gonna be hard for me, just wanted to get that out there.

Can I put your mom on the Lizard prayer list?

268 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:32:33pm

pimf "their"...

269 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:32:37pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

Anybody that can turn 20 Vats of water into wine will always be invited to my parties.

Jesus Was Way Cool:

270 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:33:09pm

re: #253 windsagio

I'm reading a bunch of stuff on it right now, and it talks about divorce, but not really about multiple marriage, or premarital sex.

Really it says its better to stay away from sex altogether, but we threw that out about 6 minutes after he said it :p


/I should be careful tho', this is a case for SERIOUS theologians, which I suspect nobody on here really is.

Where does Christ say that?

271 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:33:15pm

re: #267 HoosierHoops

I'm glad you're here. Please do.

272 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:33:16pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

Anybody that can turn 20 Vats of water into wine will always be invited to my parties.

Reason enough to choose Christianity. You won't see Mohammad, Buddha, or any of the others doing that shit.

273 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:33:26pm

re: #265 freetoken

BTW, when I lived in Japan two things struck me about there education system that are worthy of being copied here:

(1) NOT based on a 9-month calendar, but rather a 12 month calendar (with a major break at New Years, and with another at the end of August.)

(2) Students, as part of their required daily activities, have to be responsible for cleaning their own school/classroom, daily if possible.

1. But....what about harvest??!?! ;)
2. Indeed.

274 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:33:43pm

re: #248 jaunte

Funny that the technology for e-readers and publishing on demand is going to wipe out all of those years of work for them.

The schools will be the slowest to adopt that technology. And see my other post - they'll be moving on to producing curricula next, and you can be sure theirs will mandate what reading material to use in conjunction.

275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:33:46pm

re: #268 freetoken

I do that all the time...

276 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:34:12pm

re: #270 MandyManners

I don't have a quote from Jesus directly, I can quote you some stuff from the rest of the NT, if you really want me to tho.

277 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:36:41pm

To jump back some, I had no idea that Soul Train kept going all the way into the '90s

278 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:36:54pm
279 freetoken  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:37:00pm

re: #275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I do that all the time...

Yeah.... easy to do in a hurry. I was actually probably going to write about "Japan... there" but my aging brain changed the structure of the sentence midstream... oh well..

Sorry to hear about your Mom's cancer. It can be rough. Let's hope your mother will fight this one off.

280 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:37:21pm

re: #271 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm glad you're here. Please do.

Done.. Be well Veggie and we'll all pray for your mother Sunday morning

281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:37:43pm

re: #270 MandyManners

I think Wind is thinking of Paul. Paul said, (FBV Translation); "It'd be better if folks didn't marry and just worked for the Lord. But I know y'all wanna get you some, so those of you who 'just gotta have it'? Get married."

282 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:38:21pm

re: #276 windsagio

I don't have a quote from Jesus directly, I can quote you some stuff from the rest of the NT, if you really want me to tho.

Paul said it? Well, some would say that Paul had *issues* with that subject.

Wait. Was it the "better to marry than to burn" quote?

283 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:39:14pm

re: #282 MandyManners

Was it the "better to marry than to burn" quote?

Well, that depends. Some days, yes, other days, no, and some days, six of one, a half dozen of the other....

284 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:39:25pm

re: #279 freetoken

Thanks.

I have been thinking of removing all contractions from my writing (that is where the majority of my mistakes happen). But, I try to write the way I speak.

And, well... since I screw up all the time when I speak, why not?

285 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:39:33pm

re: #281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think Wind is thinking of Paul. Paul said, (FBV Translation); "It'd be better if folks didn't marry and just worked for the Lord. But I know y'all wanna get you some, so those of you who 'just gotta have it'? Get married."

Well, that's a bit cruder than I would put it but, yes.

It was a very hard road to travel to spread the Gospel in the First Century.

286 theheat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:40:23pm

re: #238 SixDegrees

I'm familiar with the Wedge Document - you're preaching to the choir.

I do a fair amount of business in Texas; used to live there for a spell. In my line of work, I get a lot of correspondence 'from the ground,' so to speak, including weekly outrage bulletins (telling me what I need to be outraged out) from the far right.

They live in a comfort zone, full of like-minded citizens. I realize the Texas school system paves the way for the infiltration of their agenda throughout the country, but the citizens I know there are happy as pigs in manure as theocracy gains each millimeter of footing.

Fun facts: each one I know is a creationist, self-described "good" Christian, Republican, anti-gay, anti-gay marriage, anti-environment, and denies global climate change. A few are outright racist, and I've learned several loath Jews. These are traits they tend to reveal over time - it isn't like they're on a resume or business application when our client relationship begins.

Business makes for odd bedfellows.

287 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:41:38pm

re: #285 MandyManners

I'm not so sure Paul, (or Jesus for that matter) didn't use some of the language of the people more than we would think.

I am only guessing, but I can imagine Jesus looking at some Pharisee saying, "That is a load of horse shit and you know it!"

(at least I hope he did)...

Probably didn't say it in English though.

288 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:41:40pm

re: #272 cliffster

Reason enough to choose Christianity. You won't see Mohammad, Buddha, or any of the others doing that shit.

20 Vats of high class wine...Heck of a party...Can you imagine drinking with Jesus? Getting tipsie with him? Oh Son of Man...Can you make my wife's b00bs bigger?
/

289 SixDegrees  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:42:45pm

re: #286 theheat

I'm familiar with the Wedge Document - you're preaching to the choir.

I do a fair amount of business in Texas; used to live there for a spell. In my line of work, I get a lot of correspondence 'from the ground,' so to speak, including weekly outrage bulletins (telling me what I need to be outraged out) from the far right.

They live in a comfort zone, full of like-minded citizens. I realize the Texas school system paves the way for the infiltration of their agenda throughout the country, but the citizens I know there are happy as pigs in manure as theocracy gains each millimeter of footing.

Fun facts: each one I know is a creationist, self-described "good" Christian, Republican, anti-gay, anti-gay marriage, anti-environment, and denies global climate change. A few are outright racist, and I've learned several loath Jews. These are traits they tend to reveal over time - it isn't like they're on a resume or business application when our client relationship begins.

Business makes for odd bedfellows.

Oh, the climate certainly helps things along. It's not what's driving the agenda, however.

The kooks had the choice of trying the same thing in California, for instance, but it's a lot harder to get past the ballot with such an agenda there.

290 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:43:26pm

OT —

I have a really great idea.

Let's take about 10-15 % of the workforce, and have them all sit around and twiddle their thumbs !

Signed, the Financial Elite of the USA

291 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:43:40pm

re: #282 MandyManners

re: #285 MandyManners

The 'burn' one was the first thing that came to mind, but the ref I came up with most doesn't use that language (altho' you never know with translaitons: 1 Cor 7: 1,2)

Theres also some whacky stuff in Revelations, but Rev is kinda whacky.


My point isn't what Jesus said, but rather there are things in modern christian belief that aren't strictly biblical. A ton of things.


The problem again, comes with the concept of interpretation. A piece of scripture can mean alot of things, depending on who you ask.

292 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:44:26pm

re: #291 windsagio

:and thus, there's theological debate about whats in the source document.

293 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:44:46pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

Anybody that can turn 20 Vats of water into wine will always be invited to my parties.

Yeah, that's the Jesus a lot of people think they're inviting to the party. Hope nobody calls "party foul" when the angry guy with a sword shows up instead and starts pitching all of the funniest sinners into a lake of fire.

294 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:45:01pm

re: #287 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'd read that Bible for sure :)

295 theheat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:45:31pm

re: #289 SixDegrees

And I don't need to tell you what they think of those "tree hugging homos" in California!

296 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:45:33pm

re: #293 goddamnedfrank

'funniest' or 'funnest'?

Most fun is sinful, but not all jokes >>

297 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:45:36pm

re: #288 HoosierHoops

Hear about the large breasted woman who went to a plastic surgeon to have reduction surgery. The surgeon asked her, "Are you sure you want to do this? They are quite lovely, nicely balanced, just a little over proportioned, but not too out of whack."

She said, "I am sure!"

He said, "You do know I'll have to numb them."

She says, "Of course."

He sticks his face between them and says, "NUM NUM NUM NUM NUM NUM!"

298 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:46:13pm

re: #293 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, that's the Jesus a lot of people think they're inviting to the party. Hope nobody calls "party foul" when the angry guy with a sword shows up instead and starts pitching all of the funniest sinners into a lake of fire.

Whoa, dude, major buzz kill

299 Buck  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:47:42pm

re: #71 Guanxi88

Thin whole thing's a buncha hooey!

The United States of America is as close to a Masonic republic as can be found.

"All in all, we are just another Brick in the Wall."

Suddenly that lyric makes sense...


/s

300 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:47:46pm

re: #293 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, that's the Jesus a lot of people think they're inviting to the party. Hope nobody calls "party foul" when the angry guy with a sword shows up instead and starts pitching all of the funniest sinners into a lake of fire.

You know what they say.. Might as well be walking on the sun..
/Are we going to have an issue here?

301 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:47:48pm

*sigh*

Treaty Of Tripoli, ratified by the US Congress in the late 1700's.........

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Board of Texas Ed - STFU

302 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:48:21pm

re: #299 Buck

"All in all, we are just another Brick in the Wall."

Suddenly that lyric makes sense...

/s

Yeah. Pass that over this way, wouldja?

303 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:48:49pm

re: #300 HoosierHoops

You know what they say.. Might as well be walking on the sun..
/Are we going to have an issue here?

About you walking on the sun? Yeah, there will be some minor issues.
:P

304 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:49:40pm

Wat OT but just blew me away this morning...
I picked uo some scrap gold that had been through the Malibu fires of a few years ago. That fire combined with the intense wind actually melted this nice ladies jewelry into a rough puddle. Only a white good ring and a 245 kt coin did not melt, just got stuck in the mess with the diamonds etc. The yellow gold melts at 1700 F, white gold or pure gold about 1900F. So that house fire got to or about 1700 degrees F. Incredible.

305 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:49:54pm

re: #303 Varek Raith

About you walking on the sun? Yeah, there will be some minor issues.
:P

I love that song! kick butt keyboards...

306 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:50:30pm

re: #250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

{{FBV and Mom}}
Stay strong. Kindest regards.

307 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:50:41pm

re: #304 Rightwingconspirator

collecting melted disaster scrap gold?

How cool is htat?!


I don't think I could part with something like that after I bought it >>

308 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:52:59pm

You want The Lord Jesus using earthy language - check out St. Matthew 15:17. Remember, what we see was the original Aramaic, cleaned up a bit when translated to Greek, then tidied up when translated to Latin, then polished when put into English. I'm guessing his original quote would be correctly rendered with "the shitter", if you'll pardon the expression. He rarely felt the need to put on the airs of the theologian. We need priests with PhD's to interpret His straightforward, blue collar language, idioms, and stories.

Then there's all the talk in the Song of Solomon about a maiden's tender and moist 'navel' and her fiance's 'feet'.

309 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:53:55pm

re: #60 RogueOne

You're right. They were brought up around the puritan lifestyle. It helps if people keep in mind that the grandparents of our founders were the ones burning witches 50 years before the declaration of independence.

Hanging. Hanging. And not all of them were from Puritan backgrounds, by a long stretch.

Also, it was the descendents of the Puritans who were the hardcore anti-slavery activists of the bunch. Complicated people.

310 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:55:02pm

re: #308 keloyd

S'what I'm sayin'!

311 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:55:11pm

re: #67 RogueOne

You sure? I thought we burned a few ourselves? We miss out on everything.

We never burned. Hanging was the English norm. In Scotland, they burned.

312 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:55:48pm

re: #311 SanFranciscoZionist

We never burned. Hanging was the English norm. In Scotland, they burned.

or made them eat haggis...

313 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:56:01pm

re: #72 Vambo

I don't believe so, and I grew up in the '90s.

We spent at least months on WWII, and then it was as if US History just kind of stopped after that. It was ridiculous, hardly anyone my age knew anything about Soviet Russia or the Cold War. Maybe that was the liberal bias?

Basically, all the history you can handle in two semesters takes you up to 1945.

314 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:57:16pm

re: #78 RogueOne

You're correct. We crushed one and hung the others.

He wasn't crushed for witchcraft, per se, they just overdid it while trying to get him to enter a plea.

315 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:57:50pm

re: #12 researchok


This is not a zero sum game.

But that's the game that is being played out in Texas, and will continue to be played out so long as arch-conservatives (such as the ones here) remain unopposed. I wonder if Texas will serve as the first domino with other states following suit.

316 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:57:50pm

re: #314 SanFranciscoZionist

He wasn't crushed for witchcraft, per se, they just overdid it while trying to get him to enter a plea.

Due process done him in, as it were.

317 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 1:58:05pm

re: #79 WindUpBird

Uh what? This wasn't even remotely true in any of my high school history classes, and I was in high school from 1991 to 1994. We did many units on the effects of WW2, we spent a long time on the holocaust, we addressed the Japanese Internment, but it was a very small part of our WW2 cirrculum.

I've never seen these extremely politically correct textbooks either, but people keep telling me they're out there.

318 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:00:30pm

re: #94 mr. hammer

Washington saw the hand of the Almighty at work during the revolution, and said so. A Deist would not have viewed it that way.

Washington was a reasonably mainstream Anglican, IIRC.

319 Lidane  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:01:40pm

re: #250 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm sorry to hear that. Best wishes to you and to your family.

320 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:01:45pm

re: #317 SanFranciscoZionist

I've never seen these extremely politically correct textbooks either, but people keep telling me they're out there.

I'm sure they exist, they're just never adopted.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:01:59pm

re: #106 Vambo

it does.

this new revisionism of omitting anyone who doesn't fit the conservative ideal is over the top. I suppose kids are going to spend a week studying Newt Gingrich and the Heritage Foundation (OMFG are you serious?!), but Anne Hutchinson and Emma Goldman never existed, amirite?

Well, they sure want to make sure Margaret Sanger is demonized. No secret about wha tthe agenda is there.

322 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:02:31pm

Guanxi88
I had to step away...
You asked about Pentjak Silat downstairs-It's from Indonesia. I loved that style when I was at the Magda Institute. Check out this school!

323 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:03:42pm

re: #320 Guanxi88

I think thats the key. They're not textbooks, they're 'proposed curriculums'... ones that never make it into the mainstream.

324 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:04:55pm

re: #138 Soap_Man


For the 60's, he asked us to dress like hippies and come up with hippie names (mine was Moonsilver.) He basically spent a month using this "teaching tool" as a way to make fun of hippies. We never made it to the 70's.

Wow. That's...quite a teaching tool.

(Some unresolved issues there?)

325 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:05:55pm

re: #322 Rightwingconspirator

Guanxi88
I had to step away...
You asked about Pentjak Silat downstairs-It's from Indonesia. I loved that style when I was at the Magda Institute. Check out this school!

Sweetness, indeed. What this world needs is more schools of martial arts.

Let a thousand flowers bloom, and a hundred schools content in a no-holds barred contest of skill and will.

326 Digital Display  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:06:36pm

re: #308 keloyd

People believe the Bible is the literal word of God..
It is inspired by God for man..
Do forget...These were men that lived thousands of years ago..
They thought the Earth was flat and still had not invented Toilette paper yet..
I'm not just taking these guys word literally... please..
It doesn't matter what in generally it says in the Bible....Good stories and all.
God is the one in your heart..not a book..
And I don't live my life from a book..except like the 10 Commandments or something.. God gave me a spirit and I plan to continue using it.

327 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:07:11pm

re: #324 SanFranciscoZionist

heh, thats quite a teacher.

Sounds like the old football coach whose been retired to teaching history, and keeps his 'coffee' in a flask.

328 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:10:04pm

re: #223 CarryOn

Left or the right hijacking of the textbooks is pathetic.

Homeschool!!!

So that you can pick out books hijacked only by the side you're rooting for?

329 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:12:36pm

re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist

So that you can pick out books hijacked only by the side you're rooting for?

It's the American way.

330 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:17:37pm

re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist

So that you can pick out books hijacked only by the side you're rooting for?

If it's legal to homeschool your kid, then regardless of standards (I've no idea if homeschooling even has standards), bias is going to creep into the education of the child. While I'm not comfortable with the idea that kids are being brainwashed with pseudo-science and a social agenda that includes demonizing gays, atheists, and scientists, I'd have no idea how to prevent a parent from teaching their kid exactly that. And I equally wouldn't be comfortable with the government entering said homes and dictating what a kind of material a parent can use.

331 Jadespring  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:18:00pm

re: #324 SanFranciscoZionist

Wow. That's...quite a teaching tool.

(Some unresolved issues there?)

In grade 8 the social studies curriculum covered two chapters of world religion. On the day we covered Hinduism and Buddism my teacher burned incense and he taught us a meditative chant.

(spelling not correct) Om ghatti para gatti, par sum ghatti, bohdi sva.'

Been close to 30 years and I still remember it.

332 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:19:24pm

re: #330 eclectic infidel

If it's legal to homeschool your kid, then regardless of standards (I've no idea if homeschooling even has standards), bias is going to creep into the education of the child. While I'm not comfortable with the idea that kids are being brainwashed with pseudo-science and a social agenda that includes demonizing gays, atheists, and scientists, I'd have no idea how to prevent a parent from teaching their kid exactly that. And I equally wouldn't be comfortable with the government entering said homes and dictating what a kind of material a parent can use.

Yep, it's a bit of a catch-22: commitment to the principles of limited state interference and freedom of choice on a broad range of matters requires tolerance of opposing world-views and their right to organize and indoctrinate their young ones to undo the order from which they have benefited.

And I'm a righty, writing this, and I see a world of problems no matter which way one goes with it.

333 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:30:38pm

re: #331 Jadespring

In grade 8 the social studies curriculum covered two chapters of world religion. On the day we covered Hinduism and Buddism my teacher burned incense and he taught us a meditative chant.

(spelling not correct) Om ghatti para gatti, par sum ghatti, bohdi sva.'

Been close to 30 years and I still remember it.

Keep it handy there for the end. Throw that, a Paternoster, and a little bit of whatever else you can memorize into a pure cry from the heart. Hedge your bets and confuse the witnesses.

334 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:33:38pm

re: #330 eclectic infidel

re: #328 SanFranciscoZionist

Drive by post:

No, there are no standards anywhere for homeschooling. Testing, yes, but not curriculum standards.

Most homeschoolers do pick their work based on a bias. I, for example, am biased against books that mix religion and science, but have no problem with religion in a health book.

335 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:43:30pm

re: #111 keloyd

Windupbird, Vambo, Soap_man -
What I'm hearing is you and I were all in hs within the space of a decade, and all had a wide spread of both what was emphasized and the competence of our history teachers/coaches teaching history part time. I stand by my point, all history since it was written with birds and squiggles and people with dog-heads on Egyptian tombs is 90% spin. The direction depends on who just grabbed power from whom. Show me someone who knows some good and proper history and I'll show you someone who read a whole lot beyond textbooks. In any event, no one in this 'Christian' nation is willing to pay me for my blog-fu, so I gotta get to work.

well I can agree with all of that.

something is always going to be left out -- either as an oversight or on purpose. It was your suggestion that there was a liberal bias equal to the blatant revisionism being put forth now that seems completely false.

336 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 2:50:56pm

re: #126 subsailor68

LOL! I guess they didn't spend much time, since the cherry tree thing was George Washington, not Lincoln! (Probably your very point!)

;-)

noooo!!! I originally typed George Washington too. :-P

337 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 3:44:57pm

Ahem!

...in which separation of church and state do does not exist

Fixed that for you, Charles!

;^)

338 Petero1818  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 3:54:11pm

Well, with respect at least to Texas, can I now change my position on home schooling? I am all for it, in Texas at least, and for those for whom private school is not an option.

339 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:03:18pm

What would be so wrong with publishing a history textbook that simply told what actually happened: The Founders were Age of Enlightenment-type Deists. But their creed never sunk roots in the hearts of the American people, whose spiritual character was formed instead by the First and Second Great Awakenings.

340 SpaceJesus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:40:27pm

can we please give it back to mexico

341 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 7:12:10am

re: #340 SpaceJesus

can we please give it back to mexico

We didn't get it from Mexico.

342 jordash1212  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 8:20:09am

The students of that curriculum would be in for a shock once they got to a public university where the opposite kind of revisionist history is learned.

343 jordash1212  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 8:20:30am

learned taught.


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