Virginia Governor McDonnell and the Neo-Confederates

US NewsApril 2010 • Views: 5,098

Viriginia Governor Bob McDonnell’s pandering to the racist neo-Confederate crowd didn’t just start with his proclamation of “Confederate History Month.” In 2002, Donnell got into trouble when he used a pledge written by the United Daughters of the Confederacy to open sessions of the Virginia House of Delegates. Ben Tribbett has the details.

After the 2001 election where Republicans took 66 of 100 seats in the Virginia House of Delegates, then-Delegate Bob McDonnell had a motion on the opening day of the 2002 session. He wanted the House of Delegates to begin reciting a “salute to the flag of the Commonwealth of Virginia”. The words to the Salute had been passed in 1954 and didn’t raise a red flag on their own:

“I salute the flag of Virginia, with reverence and patriotic devotion to the “Mother of States and Statesmen” which it represents - the “Old Dominion,” where liberty and independence were born.”

A few days into 2002 session the Richmond Times-Dispatch broke a story of where this pledge came from. It was from the United Daughters of the Confederacy- who had been using it at every official gathering since 1946!

Immediately all hell broke loose in the General Assembly. McDonnell played coy- pretending he didn’t know where the pledge (that he had asked the House of Delegates to recite each day) came from:

Delegate Robert F. McDonnell (R-Virginia Beach), who suggested that the salute be revived, claimed ignorance of its origins but told the Times-Dispatch last week he hoped they would not detract from the sentiments it expresses. “The words are good,” he said. “I don’t think we should malign that great salute based on any links to the Confederacy, and I hope people will understand this.”

The Virginia Legislative Black Caucus then asked that the House stop with this UDC pledge. McDonnell led the fight on the floor to keep it. The motion to do away with the pledge failed on a 50-48 vote. Having ignored the pain he was causing- McDonnell continued to lead the House in the pledge for another two years until after the 2003 elections. For those two years, members of the Black Caucus refused to participate in this “pledge”.

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195 comments

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:19:50am

I was just about to post this on the previous thread:

re: #525 Charles

There were NO black soldiers fighting for the Confederacy in the Civil War.

There was a unit from Louisiana called the "Native Guards" composed of "Free Men of Color" who volunteered for the Confederacy. Their services were rejected, and they became a Union regiment. However, their black officers were all replaced by white men.

One of them was Jewish.

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:19:59am

And he said Slavery wasn't significant enough to mention in his proclamation yesterday:

McDonnell said he did not include a reference to slavery because "there were any number of aspects to that conflict between the states. Obviously, it involved slavery. It involved other issues. But I focused on the ones I thought were most significant for Virginia."

Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:21:05am

re: #1 Alouette

I was just about to post this on the previous thread:

There was a unit from Louisiana called the "Native Guards" composed of "Free Men of Color" who volunteered for the Confederacy. Their services were rejected, and they became a Union regiment. However, their black officers were all replaced by white men.

One of them was Jewish.

Was looking for that. NPR carried a segment.

MandyManners Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:21:14am

How to contact McDonnell.

[Link: www.governor.virginia.gov...]

Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:22:41am

I've posted Confederate leaders' source documents in links.

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:22:48am

re: #1 Alouette

I was just about to post this on the previous thread:

There was a unit from Louisiana called the "Native Guards" composed of "Free Men of Color" who volunteered for the Confederacy. Their services were rejected, and they became a Union regiment. However, their black officers were all replaced by white men.

One of them was Jewish.

Right, I know about them. This story reinforces my point. Not only were there no black soldiers fighting on the side of the Confederacy, the very few who wanted to were rejected by the South.

Obdicut Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:22:48am

re: #2 darthstar

It's really, really mindboggling that the GOP is so ready to give up any chance of blacks voting for them, any pretense that they respect the feelings of the black community.

To borrow a phrase from a poster here:

I HOPE EVERYONE THAT WAS PLEASED THAT A REPUBLICAN GOT ELECTED GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA IN THE MIDTERMS IS HAPPY NOW!

Not that the Democratic opponent was actually all that good, but McDonnell should not have been the GOP nominee.

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:22:56am

For those two years, members of the Black Caucus refused to participate in this “pledge”.

Good for them.

MandyManners Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:23:06am

re: #1 Alouette

I was just about to post this on the previous thread:

There was a unit from Louisiana called the "Native Guards" composed of "Free Men of Color" who volunteered for the Confederacy. Their services were rejected, and they became a Union regiment. However, their black officers were all replaced by white men.

One of them was Jewish.

With General Robert E. Lee's manpower reserves quickly draining, on March 23, 1865, General Orders #14 was issued which allowed for the enlistment of Blacks into the Confederate service. Shortly thereafter, a notice was posted in Petersburg's The Daily Express, "The commanding General deems the prompt organization of as large a force of negroes as can be spared, a measure of the utmost importance, and the support and co-operation of the citizens of Petersburg and the surrounding counties is requested by him for the prosecution to success of a scheme which he believes promises so great benefit to our cause...To the slaves is offered freedom and undisturbed residence at their old homes in the Confederacy after the war. Not the freedom of sufferance, but honorable and self won by the gallantry and devotion which grateful countrymen will never cease to reward."

The recruitment effort did bear fruit in Richmond where Majors James W. Pegram and Thomas P. Turner put together a "Negro Brigade" of Confederate States Colored Troops. The Richmond Daily Examiner noted of the unit "the knowledge of the military art they already exhibit was something remarkable. They moved with evident pride and satisfaction to themselves."

As the Confederate army abandoned Richmond on April 3rd, apparently these Black Confederate soldiers went along with General Custis Lee's wagon train on its journey. They would move unmolested until they reached the area of Painesville on April 5. Here they were attacked by General Henry Davies' cavalry troopers.

SNIP

Obdicut Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:25:56am

re: #5 Decatur Deb

I've posted Confederate leaders' source documents in links.

If I recall correctly, every single secession proclamation explicitly mentions slavery.

Here is Virginia's:

Virginia

AN ORDINANCE to repeal the ratification of the Constitution of the United State of America by the State of Virginia, and to resume all the rights and powers granted under said Constitution.

The people of Virginia in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under said Constitition were derived from the people of the United States and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States:

Now, therefore, we, the people of Virginia, do declare and ordain, That the ordinance adopted by the people of this State in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified, and all acts of the General Assembly of this State ratifying and adopting amendments to said Constitution, are hereby repealed and abrogated; that the union between the State of Virginia and the other States under the Constitution aforesaid is hereby dissolved, and that the State of Virginia is in the full possession and exercise of all the rights of sovereignty which belong and appertain to a free and independent State.

And they do further declare, That said Constitution of the United States of America is no longer binding on any of the citizens of this State.

This ordinance shall take effect and be an act of this day, when ratified by a majority of the voter of the people of this State cast at a poll to be taken thereon on the fourth Thursday in May next, in pursuance of a schedule hereafter to be enacted.

Adopted by the convention of Virginia April 17,1861.

Source: Official Records, Ser. IV, vol. 1, p. 223.

[ratified by a vote of 132,201 to 37,451 on May 23, 1861]

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:26:30am

re: #1 Alouette

I was just about to post this on the previous thread:

There was a unit from Louisiana called the "Native Guards" composed of "Free Men of Color" who volunteered for the Confederacy. Their services were rejected, and they became a Union regiment. However, their black officers were all replaced by white men.

One of them was Jewish.

Cause nothing say loyalty like being ready to fight for whatever side will let you!

Spider Mensch Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:26:46am

6 see 9

Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:27:37am

re: #10 Obdicut

In some I could only find reference to "property", so I didn't go for the obvious.

MandyManners Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:27:39am

How to contact the Virginia General Assembly.

[Link: legis.state.va.us...]

windsagio Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:27:49am

heh why is it so important for people to insist that blacks served the confederacy? What would that actually show?

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:28:05am

re: #6 Charles

Right, I know about them. This story reinforces my point. Not only were there no black soldiers fighting on the side of the Confederacy, the very few who wanted to were rejected by the South.

Ervin Jordan wrote a book about Black Confederates, desperately trying to find one "soldier" who was something other than a slave who waited on the white men.

Obdicut Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:28:31am

re: #11 jamesfirecat

Cause nothing say loyalty like being ready to fight for whatever side will let you!

Um, James, I don't think you really understand their situation that well.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:28:37am

"I hereby pledge to the flag of the state of Oregon, which is blue and gold and has a beaver on the backside and a bunch of pictures nobody can really see on the front side."

I feel better now.

Stanghazi Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:28:46am

re: #15 windsagio

heh why is it so important for people to insist that blacks served the confederacy? What would that actually show?

I swear. That's exactly what I'm thinking.

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:29:29am

re: #15 windsagio

heh why is it so important for people to insist that blacks served the confederacy? What would that actually show?

That the "War of Northern Aggression" wasn't about slavery, it was about tariffs!

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:29:39am

re: #15 windsagio

heh why is it so important for people to insist that blacks served the confederacy? What would that actually show?

That people can be made to act against their own self interest, which some might argue is the corner stone of much of today's GOP!

albusteve Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:29:43am

McDonnells soire passed by a meager two votes?...the guy is a self serving maniac...hope he has good personal security...a titanic insult to the citizens of Virginia

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:29:46am

re: #9 MandyManners

Right, they were "recruited" at the very end of the war when the South was losing badly and they were desperate. They never fought.

And by the way, "recruitment" means something a little different when the people being recruited are... you know ... slaves?

drcordell Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:29:54am

Only in the American South is there a clamoring to remember a war that was lost. Imagine if the French passed an official resolution to celebrate the "heritage" of the Vichy government.

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:30:00am

re: #17 Obdicut

Um, James, I don't think you really understand their situation that well.

I'm willing to bet you're right.

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:30:01am

re: #7 Obdicut

It's really, really mindboggling that the GOP is so ready to give up any chance of blacks voting for them, any pretense that they respect the feelings of the black community.

To borrow a phrase from a poster here:

I HOPE EVERYONE THAT WAS PLEASED THAT A REPUBLICAN GOT ELECTED GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA IN THE MIDTERMS IS HAPPY NOW!

Not that the Democratic opponent was actually all that good, but McDonnell should not have been the GOP nominee.

It's gotta be bolded.
:)

Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:30:02am

re: #16 Alouette

Ervin Jordan wrote a book about Black Confederates, desperately trying to find one "soldier" who was something other than a slave who waited on the white men.

There were labor battalions doing engineering work, still slaves on loan from their masters. There might have been a few freeman craftsmen in materiel production.

albusteve Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:30:09am

re: #15 windsagio

heh why is it so important for people to insist that blacks served the confederacy? What would that actually show?

who's doing that?

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:30:26am

This thread is bringing back memories of when I used to post on Usenet alt.war.civil.usa, where Robert Stacy McCain was the 3rd most obnoxious asshole troll.

windsagio Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:30:34am

re: #17 Obdicut

In that Folklore book I was pimping last night, they have a section about the "Native Guard, Colored", and about what their demands were to fight for the Union.

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:30:51am

re: #23 Charles

Right, there "recruited" at the very end of the war when the South was losing badly and they were desperate. They never fought.

And by the way, "recruitment" means something a little different when the people being recruited are... you know ... slaves?

They were more like expendable human shields.

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:31:23am

re: #29 Alouette

This thread is bringing back memories of when I used to post on Usenet alt.war.civil.usa, where Robert Stacy McCain was the 3rd most obnoxious asshole troll.

Only 3rd? He must not have been trying hard enough....

What, me worry? Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:31:31am

re: #23 Charles

Right, they were "recruited" at the very end of the war when the South was losing badly and they were desperate. They never fought.

And by the way, "recruitment" means something a little different when the people being recruited are... you know ... slaves?

In fact, those Black soldiers are holding instruments, not guns.

[Link: loc.gov...]

Summary: Photograph of Washington, 1862-1865, view of the defenses of Washington. Shows group of twenty African American soldiers with musical instruments.

windsagio Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:31:44am

re: #28 albusteve

Read the thread, its pretty clear :P

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:31:52am

re: #29 Alouette

This thread is bringing back memories of when I used to post on Usenet alt.war.civil.usa, where Robert Stacy McCain was the 3rd most obnoxious asshole troll.

I miss the usenet days. Who were the two who surpassed RSM?

Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:32:06am

This guy is the future of the Republican Party?

Time to send more money to the Libertarian party, The New Whig Party, The Democrats. Because I'm on an official, 'I'll vote for anyone else who doesn't have an (R) by their name pledge'

And yes, I know all political parties will have their corruption, or criminal activities, or general foolishness. But really? To hell with the Republican party if this is the best they can muster.

Can I have some politics without an order of dog whistle on the side?

Oh, wait, there's one Republican I'd vote for, Stormy Daniels against Vitter.

Obdicut Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:32:28am

re: #26 darthstar

Heh. It took an effort just to write it in all caps. Not my style.

re: #31 darthstar

They were more like expendable human shields.

We should note that, to our shame, the US Army was not integrated until after World War II, and during WWII we mostly forced blacks to take support jobs rather than combat jobs.

There are black veterans still living who remember signing up to fight, and who were handed a mop instead.

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:33:03am

re: #9 MandyManners

The commanding General deems the prompt organization of as large a force of negroes as can be spared, a measure of the utmost importance, and the support and co-operation of the citizens of Petersburg and the surrounding counties is requested by him for the prosecution to success of a scheme which he believes promises so great benefit to our cause...To the slaves is offered freedom and undisturbed residence at their old homes in the Confederacy after the war. Not the freedom of sufferance, but honorable and self won by the gallantry and devotion which grateful countrymen will never cease to reward."

SNIP

How bloody noble of the good general. Wait until liberation is in sight, and then offer your slaves the opportunity to fight for the wrong damn side.

Berlin, March 1, 1945: "Der Führer sees an immediate need to organize a brigade of those Jews still in hiding and strong enough to wield a weapon for the defense of the Fatherland against the invading Mongol Commie hordes and their mongrel American co-criminals. To those who volunteer is offered the freedom to return to their hiding places after the war, and the undying gratitude of all Aryans."

Feh.

badger1970 Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:33:17am

"Once let the black man get upon his person the brass letter, U.S., let him get an eagle on his button, and a musket on his shoulder and bullets in his pocket, there is no power on earth that can deny that he has earned the right to citizenship."

Frederick Douglass

albusteve Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:33:43am

re: #34 windsagio

Read the thread, its pretty clear :P

I see a handful of factoids, I don't see anyone insisting on anything....maybe you should go back and look

MandyManners Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:34:16am

Off to the bowels of hell, a/k/a, DMV.

Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:34:18am

re: #39 badger1970

I always wonder what it was like to be Frederick Douglass, being condescended to by whites who weren't bright enough to comprehend what he was saying.

3eff Jeff Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:34:38am

re: #24 drcordell

Only in the American South is there a clamoring to remember a war that was lost.

And I wish they understood that the country is better and stronger for that loss. It's no fun to be the losers, but this country is still better for having the South remain intact. And I say this as a 100% damnyankee (one side of my family is Italian, and came to Ohio circa WWI, the other side is Mormon).

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:34:39am

re: #15 windsagio

heh why is it so important for people to insist that blacks served the confederacy? What would that actually show?

It's like the people who argue that, just because one or two blacks show up at Tea Parties, they can't be racist...it's a defense mechanism.

drcordell Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:34:55am

I'm wondering where all the Northern states are on this? I'd fully support the passing of a resolution by New York that celebrates the fact that we won freedom for millions of black Americans by defeating the rebel South. Hell, why not rub it in their faces even further by calling it a "Declaration in remembrance of our victory in the War of Yankee Aggression."

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:35:12am

re: #41 MandyManners

Off to the bowels of hell, a/k/a, DMV.

Try not to get arrested this time.

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:35:24am

re: #42 EmmmieG

I always wonder what it was like to be Frederick Douglass, being condescended to by whites who weren't bright enough to comprehend what he was saying.

Well we could ask President Obama how it feels....

ZING!

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:35:30am

re: #35 darthstar

I miss the usenet days. Who were the two who surpassed RSM?

A frenzied anti-Semite named Ted Werntz, and a bipolar wife-beater who was a descendant of Matthew Fontaine Maury.

teleskiguy Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:35:32am

re: #9 MandyManners
This is telling. General Lee, losing soldiers to desertion and the battlefield left and right, he asks for black soldiers. In the CSA secession documents, they say that slavery is the natural condition of blacks. And yet they need them to be soldiers 4 years later. This shows complete ideological disarray, which is what were seeing with the GOP now.

allegro Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:35:37am

re: #37 Obdicut

and during WWII we mostly forced blacks to take support jobs rather than combat jobs.

Tuskegee Airmen

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:35:50am

re: #9 MandyManners

By the way, why didn't you quote this section from that page?

A Confederate officer, who rode upon this situation as it was transpiring, recalled: "Several engineer officers were superintending the construction of a line of rude breastworks...Ten or twelve negroes were engaged in the task of pulling down a rail fence; as many more occupied in carrying the rails, one at a time, and several were busy throwing up the dirt...The [Blacks] thus employed all wore good gray uniforms and I was informed that they belonged to the only company of colored troops in the Confederate service, having been enlisted by Major Turner in Richmond. Their muskets were stacked, and it was evident that they regarded their present employment in no very favorable light."

These weren't soldiers. They were still slaves.

drcordell Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:36:01am

re: #50 allegro

Tuskegee Airmen

Congratulations, you have found the exception that proves the rule!

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:36:12am

re: #42 EmmmieG

I always wonder what it was like to be Frederick Douglass, being condescended to by whites who weren't bright enough to comprehend what he was saying.

Ask President Obama...he knows.

Joo-LiZ Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:36:17am

I'm a little confused about the point being made.

Are we implying that McDonnell is a neo-Confederate and by extension pro-slavery/closet-racist?

That's what it looks like, by making the connection first between McDonnell and the Neo-Confederate groups through this oath, then the comments pointing out that one of the most apparent characteristics of the Union vs. Confederates was their respective stances on slavery.

I don't really have an opinion on McDonnell, I'm just not sure if I am making the right inferences here.

MandyManners Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:36:20am

The link to the archives:

On April 10th, as Confederate prisoners were being marched from Sailor's Creek and elsewhere to City Point (present day Hopewell) and eventually off to Northern prison camps, a Union chaplain observed the column. This incident along the retreat to Painesville, seems to be the only documented episode of "official" Black troops serving the Confederacy in Virginia as a unit under fire.

Now, I really gotta' git...er, hobble.

Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:36:34am

BBL

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:36:36am

re: #47 jamesfirecat

Well we could ask President Obama how it feels...

ZING!

GMTA

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:37:20am

re: #50 allegro

Tuskegee Airmen

Don't forget Patton's Black Panthers either!

Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:37:35am

re: #51 Charles

By the way, why didn't you quote this section from that page?

These weren't soldiers. They were still slaves.

I recruit my children for tasks all the time.

"they regarded their present employment in no very favorable light"

is a perfect description of a ten year old boy cleaning his room.

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:37:42am

re: #29 Alouette

This thread is bringing back memories of when I used to post on Usenet alt.war.civil.usa, where Robert Stacy McCain was the 3rd most obnoxious asshole troll.

I hope Robert Stacy McCain has a daughter who marries a Moor named Othello. And then Shakespeare comes back from the grave and writes a happy-ending version to the play.

After sending RSM briefly mad on a heath with King Lear and Hamlet.

Joo-LiZ Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:38:05am

re: #54 Joo-LiZ

Hmm, I missed the bit at the very top about his declaring a "Confederate History Month" ... I'm really out of the loop on this one.

drcordell Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:38:40am

re: #54 Joo-LiZ

I'm a little confused about the point being made.

Are we implying that McDonnell is a neo-Confederate and by extension pro-slavery/closet-racist?

That's what it looks like, by making the connection first between McDonnell and the Neo-Confederate groups through this oath, then the comments pointing out that one of the most apparent characteristics of the Union vs. Confederates was their respective stances on slavery.

I don't really have an opinion on McDonnell, I'm just not sure if I am making the right inferences here.

What other inference is there to make? The resolution was sponsored by the Sons of Confederate Veterans, considered by many to be a racist organization. McDonnell explicitly stated that slavery was not mentioned in the resolution because it wasn't "significant" enough. What other information do you need?

badger1970 Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:39:01am

This should encompass all questions of the difficulties that blacks had to overcome in order to serve in the military.

Teaching With Documents:
The Fight for Equal Rights: Black Soldiers in the Civil War

allegro Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:39:05am

re: #52 drcordell

Congratulations, you have found the exception that proves the rule!

No argument there. I just like to see these men remembered and honored if an opportunity arises. It arose. :)

Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:39:06am

re: #59 EmmmieG

Although, obviously, I'm not saying slavery is the same as being a child in a household, not in any realistic sense.

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:39:26am

re: #62 drcordell

She missed the CHM declaration...explained in 61

Feline Fearless Leader Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:39:27am

re: #29 Alouette

This thread is bringing back memories of when I used to post on Usenet alt.war.civil.usa, where Robert Stacy McCain was the 3rd most obnoxious asshole troll.

Ditto. {Shudder}

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:39:29am

re: #29 Alouette

This thread is bringing back memories of when I used to post on Usenet alt.war.civil.usa, where Robert Stacy McCain was the 3rd most obnoxious asshole troll.

I didn't know you were that interested in the Civil War! Your history buffness is impressive!

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:39:42am

re: #66 darthstar

Oops...He...I believe Joo-Liz is a guy.

Joo-LiZ Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:39:59am

re: #66 darthstar

~~She~~He missed the CHM declaration...explained in 61

FTFY

Obdicut Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:40:03am

re: #52 drcordell

The Tuskagee Airmen were still a segregated unit. And yes, Allegro is right that I shouldn't forget the enormous sacrifices and bravery of those black pilots who fought to be allowed to fight, and the importance of winning that fight.

The Airmen were still treated incredibly poorly by much of the Army.

This incident from WWII still makes my blood boil, too:

[Link: www.eotu.uiuc.edu...]

The hundreds of thousands of African-American soldiers who did not see combat faced segregation to its fullest in spite of being United States soldiers, and the government did nothing productive to keep this from happening. The Army allegedly sent the quartered African-American soldiers to the South to train in “year-round open weather,” coincidently also the heart of the Jim Crow Laws (Time 65). In other words, the Army sent African-Americans who were willing to give their lives for their country to the worst possible place in America that they could be sent. Some soldiers in El Paso, Texas, were denied entrance and service when they tried to enter a local restaurant. They ate cold food outside while watching “German prisoners of war seated in the restaurant and [eating] hot food” (Time 65). Even the enemies of the United States got treated better than the African-American soldiers. To make matters worse, nobody really saw anything wrong with the situation.

allegro Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:40:06am

re: #54 Joo-LiZ

Are we implying that McDonnell is a neo-Confederate and by extension pro-slavery/closet-racist?

I wouldn't imply such a thing. I'd come right out and say it.

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:40:13am

re: #31 darthstar

They were more like expendable human shields.

Operation Human Shield in the South Park movie.

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:40:32am

re: #51 Charles

By the way, why didn't you quote this section from that page?

Who knows why Mandy posts what she posts? Maybe The Shadow Do, or maybe we could ask The Sanity Inspector.

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:40:50am

re: #70 Joo-LiZ

FTFY

I always think your handle means Jewish Elizabeth, but really it's just Jewish Lizard...my mistake.

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:40:54am

re: #68 ludwigvanquixote

I didn't know you were that interested in the Civil War! Your history buffness is impressive!

Jews in the Civil War

What, me worry? Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:41:05am

re: #54 Joo-LiZ

I'm a little confused about the point being made.

Are we implying that McDonnell is a neo-Confederate and by extension pro-slavery/closet-racist?

That's what it looks like, by making the connection first between McDonnell and the Neo-Confederate groups through this oath, then the comments pointing out that one of the most apparent characteristics of the Union vs. Confederates was their respective stances on slavery.

I don't really have an opinion on McDonnell, I'm just not sure if I am making the right inferences here.

Is it that hard to figure out? There are many in the South who still want to give honor to the Confederacy. The same who constantly complain when their flag isn't recognized as acceptable. Virginia's previous Democrat Governors would have NONE of it. Now they have a Repub who is all to happy to tip his hat to racists.

You figure it out.

Joo-LiZ Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:41:34am

re: #75 darthstar

I always think your handle means Jewish Elizabeth, but really it's just Jewish Lizard...my mistake.

Yup... I realized that ambiguity about an hour after making the account!

Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:41:54am

re: #78 Joo-LiZ

Yup... I realized that ambiguity about an hour after making the account!

At least you spelled it right.

badger1970 Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:41:56am

re: #77 marjoriemoon

NASCAR? //

drcordell Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:42:33am

re: #64 allegro

No argument there. I just like to see these men remembered and honored if an opportunity arises. It arose. :)

It's true, they deserve much more credit than they have received. What I find the most fascinating about the Tuskegee Airmen is that they were the favorite escort unit of bomber pilots, because they were drilled so heavily on teamwork and mission objectives. They understood that staying close and defending bombers so they reached the target was priority #1, not flying off and getting into dogfights to rack up more individual kills.

Joo-LiZ Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:42:42am

re: #79 EmmmieG

At least you spelled it right.

And here I thought the triple m's were intentional!

Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:42:46am

re: #54 Joo-LiZ

I'm a little confused about the point being made.

Are we implying that McDonnell is a neo-Confederate and by extension pro-slavery/closet-racist?

That's what it looks like, by making the connection first between McDonnell and the Neo-Confederate groups through this oath, then the comments pointing out that one of the most apparent characteristics of the Union vs. Confederates was their respective stances on slavery.

I don't really have an opinion on McDonnell, I'm just not sure if I am making the right inferences here.

I think we're implying that ... at best, McDonnell views his Neo-Confederate loving white constituents over any hostility and humiliation he might be inflicing on his black constituents. That implies at best, a callous political calculation, a tone deafness for the crap the Blacks have gone through in America...

either that or yes, he's a bit of a racist asshole.

If you'd like, it'd be like seeing Local governments celebrating the German war against Soviet aggression and the sacrifices of the brave German soldier to continue to have the right to continue to run their country as they saw fit.

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:42:50am

re: #74 Cato the Elder

I know what happened to SI. What happened to Shadow? (I must have been away)

What, me worry? Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:42:58am

re: #80 badger1970

NASCAR? //

I'm not following you, but I'm not a race car fan either!

albusteve Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:43:22am

Buffalo Soldiers...a large part of western lore
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

garhighway Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:43:37am

re: #72 allegro

I wouldn't imply such a thing. I'd come right out and say it.

What are the choices?

1> He's just really stupid. (Seems unlikely to me.)
2> He's knows what he's doing, thinks it's wrong, but thinks he has to/needs to do it in order to pander to his base. In which case he may not be a racist, but would instead be an unprincipled opportunist, or
3> He's a racist.

Are there other potential outcomes here?

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:43:46am

re: #81 drcordell

It's true, they deserve much more credit than they have received. What I find the most fascinating about the Tuskegee Airmen is that they were the favorite escort unit of bomber pilots, because they were drilled so heavily on teamwork and mission objectives. They understood that staying close and defending bombers so they reached the target was priority #1, not flying off and getting into dogfights to rack up more individual kills.

You're forgetting the part where they never lost a bomber they were escorting to enemy action... at least that's something I recall hearing once or twice....

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:44:00am

re: #60 Cato the Elder

I hope Robert Stacy McCain has a daughter who marries a Moor named Othello. And then Shakespeare comes back from the grave and writes a happy-ending version to the play.

After sending RSM briefly mad on a heath with King Lear and Hamlet.

The only Shakespeare character that I can see RSM portraying is "Thisbe" in Midsummer Night's Dream.

reine.de.tout Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:44:54am

re: #15 windsagio

heh why is it so important for people to insist that blacks served the confederacy? What would that actually show?

Nothing, really.
re: #24 drcordell

Only in the American South is there a clamoring to remember a war that was lost. . . .

Heh.
There are those who fight those battles over and over and over again.
Some are just history buffs, I think.
But I think there are also those who keep hoping the outcome will be different.

3eff Jeff Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:44:56am

re: #87 garhighway

Are there other potential outcomes here?

Those three look like it to me. And I'm pretty sure he isn't that dumb.

What, me worry? Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:45:06am

re: #86 albusteve

Buffalo Soldiers...a large part of western lore
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The Indian tribes despised them. They fought against the the tribes.

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:45:08am

re: #89 Alouette

Or the wall.

badger1970 Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:45:10am

re: #85 marjoriemoon

NASCAR an all-white sport with a trailer park convention infield (beer and flags).

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:45:26am

re: #89 Alouette

The only Shakespeare character that I can see RSM portraying is "Thisbe" in Midsummer Night's Dream.

I would plump for "Bottom", myself... ;^)

Joo-LiZ Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:45:49am

re: #83 bloodstar

I think we're implying that ... at best, McDonnell views his Neo-Confederate loving white constituents over any hostility and humiliation he might be inflicing on his black constituents. That implies at best, a callous political calculation, a tone deafness for the crap the Blacks have gone through in America...

either that or yes, he's a bit of a racist asshole.

If you'd like, it'd be like seeing Local governments celebrating the German war against Soviet aggression and the sacrifices of the brave German soldier to continue to have the right to continue to run their country as they saw fit.

Yeah, as a Canadian I'm quite out of touch with the sensitivities involved in the Civil War.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:45:50am

re: #9 MandyManners

You know, I take no pleasure in beating on you, but the context of this history is lost when you post it like this.

The apologists for the atrocities committed on Blacks by the South would like to falsely paint some picture that says that black folks "fought for" the Confederacy too - and therefore slavery wasn't that bad, and you see you Yankees and uppity Negro loving types and uppity Negros don't understand the South.

The reality is that those men were slaves. The reality is that some men do suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. The reality is that every oppressed nation has both kapos and a lot more people who go along with their oppressor to whatever extent is needed to not be killed or brutalized.

To bring up those black people who "worked" for the Confederacy in this context, is to shamelessly sweep atrocity under the rug.

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:46:11am

re: #95 Cato the Elder

I would plump for "Bottom", myself... ;^)

He's not smart enough for Bottom.

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:46:29am

In other news, I am looking forward to yet another exciting season of utterly disregarding the existence of baseball.

100

teleskiguy Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:46:41am

re: #89 Alouette

The only Shakespeare character that I can see RSM portraying is "Thisbe" in Midsummer Night's Dream.

He's Polonius, a goddamned windbag who has nothing to do with the play!

101

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:46:47am

OT, but Charles, weren't you planning on doing something so that you didn't show up on the top 10 comments? I only ask because I managed to get a +15 comment yesterday but it never made the top 10 comments and at the moment you're occupying 6 of the top 10 slots....

102

Obdicut Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:47:05am

re: #81 drcordell

Patton was quite racist, and didn't want the black tankers that he was assigned. But once assigned them, he did right by them, supported them, and honestly reviewed them-- and their performance was excellent.

Men, you're the first Negro tankers to ever fight in the American Army. I would never have asked for you if you weren't good. I have nothing but the best in my Army. I don't care what color you are as long as you go up there and kill those Kraut sons of bitches. Everyone has their eyes on you and is expecting great things from you. Most of all your race is looking forward to your success. Don't let them down and damn you, don't let me down![1]

He privately remained a racist, but was able to still promote the cause of black men in the military. As always, Patton was an idiosyncratic guy.

My favorite aspect of Patton's use of black soldiers:

During the Battle of the Bulge, German soldiers who had raided American warehouses were reported to have disguised themselves as Americans guarding the checkpoints in order to ambush American soldiers. Patton solved this problem by ordering black soldiers, including the 761st, to guard the checkpoints, and gave the order to shoot any white soldiers at the checkpoints who acted suspiciously.[3]

The point of all this being that the Confederacy, and the treatment of black soldiers, and all of that, isn't something that happened in the distant, musty past. Our society has been evolving, striving for true equality, and we are not, by any means, there yet, and actions like this by McDonnell are stupid, divisive, thoughtless, and cruel.

103

Joo-LiZ Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:47:20am

re: #96 Joo-LiZ

I was gonna make a point about the bolded part but decided not to. Just ignore that, please.

104

drcordell Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:47:25am

re: #90 reine.de.tout

There are those who fight those battles over and over and over again.
Some are just history buffs, I think.
But I think there are also those who keep hoping the outcome will be different.

All this neo-Confederate stuff is about more than remembering history. There are plenty of avid WWII buffs who manage to be students of history without passing resolutions to honor the Third Reich.

105

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:47:49am

re: #101 jamesfirecat

OT, but Charles, weren't you planning on doing something so that you didn't show up on the top 10 comments? I only ask because I managed to get a +15 comment yesterday but it never made the top 10 comments and at the moment you're occupying 6 of the top 10 slots...

You top-comment whore! ;^)

106

allegro Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:47:58am

re: #92 marjoriemoon

The Indian tribes despised them. They fought against the the tribes.

Lore has it that the tribes are the ones who gave them the name Buffalo Soldiers due to:

a) their curly hair reminded them of buffalo fur and/or
b) they were fierce fighters

With the extreme respect the Native Americans had for the buffalo, the name is considered highly complimentary.

107

What, me worry? Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:49:04am

re: #94 badger1970

NASCAR an all-white sport with a trailer park convention infield (beer and flags).

I was a scooter tramp for a time. Belonged to the Ladies of Harley. Not hardcore bikers, of course. Most of us were yuppies.

But we did attract racists for sure. The iron cross, German helmets and the confederate flag were often seen at the large rallies, the poker runs or the toy drives, when lots of different groups would participate. My local Ladies of Harley group didn't have such folks, but I ended up leaving the group anyway and riding with just friends.

108

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:50:04am

re: #105 Cato the Elder

You top-comment whore! ;^)

Sorry, still new hear so I get a delightful tingle in my spine when I manage to make the top 10 comments, still have all the ones I've done it with faved including my very first "Frankly my dear I don't give a ding..."...

109

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:50:42am

re: #101 jamesfirecat

OT, but Charles, weren't you planning on doing something so that you didn't show up on the top 10 comments? I only ask because I managed to get a +15 comment yesterday but it never made the top 10 comments and at the moment you're occupying 6 of the top 10 slots...

Oops, had a version conflict and resolved it by merging a source file that didn't have that code in it. It's fixed now.

110

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:50:57am

re: #92 marjoriemoon

The Indian tribes despised them. They fought against the the tribes.

There are also the Black Cherokee nation. They are the descendent's of intermarriage after some of those soldiers were adopted into the tribe.

111

Obdicut Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:51:31am

re: #109 Charles

The speed with which you just fixed that makes me really want you to come to my company and give the engineers a lecture on source/version control.

112

reine.de.tout Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:51:54am

re: #104 drcordell

All this neo-Confederate stuff is about more than remembering history. There are plenty of avid WWII buffs who manage to be students of history without passing resolutions to honor the Third Reich.

Yes, but the Civil War battlefields are here; the WWII battlefields are not, and that plays into it, I think.

There are folks who for some reason I cannot personally fathom enjoy dressing up in the costumes and going out and camping in the way soldiers did then, etc etc etc.

Again I don't personally get it. Neither do I understand the folks who dress up in medieval costumes and go to the medieval sorts of fairs which are held periodically, but there are plenty of folks who do it.

113

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:51:59am

re: #110 ludwigvanquixote

There are also the Black Cherokee nation. They are the descendent's of intermarriage after some of those soldiers were adopted into the tribe.

Lots of blacks in the Seminole nation also.

114

_RememberTonyC Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:52:18am

welcome to our newest Filipino hatchling ....

[Link: www.comcast.net...]

Should we schedule e bris or anything?

115

Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:52:19am

re: #99 Cato the Elder

In other news, I am looking forward to yet another exciting season of utterly disregarding the existence of baseball.

I follow the Pirates until they crap out, so it's roughly the same thing.

116

What, me worry? Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:52:23am

re: #106 allegro

Lore has it that the tribes are the ones who gave them the name Buffalo Soldiers due to:

a) their curly hair reminded them of buffalo fur and/or
b) they were fierce fighters

With the extreme respect the Native Americans had for the buffalo, the name is considered highly complimentary.

I have quite a number of Native American friends and none of them have any respect for the Buffalo soldiers. They teamed up with the whites against the Indians.

117

jaunte Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:53:00am

re: #60 Cato the Elder

I hope Robert Stacy McCain has a daughter who marries a Moor named Othello. And then Shakespeare comes back from the grave and writes a happy-ending version to the play.

After sending RSM briefly mad on a heath with King Lear and Hamlet.

I'm hoping he fails to find anyone who will agree to reproduce with him.

118

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:53:20am

re: #112 reine.de.tout

Yes, but the Civil War battlefields are here; the WWII battlefields are not, and that plays into it, I think.

There are folks who for some reason I cannot personally fathom enjoy dressing up in the costumes and going out and camping in the way soldiers did then, etc etc etc.

Again I don't personally get it. Neither do I understand the folks who dress up in medieval costumes and go to the medieval sorts of fairs which are held periodically, but there are plenty of folks who do it.

I don't dress up, but I go for the turkey legs. And the beer wenches.:)

119

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:53:43am

re: #108 jamesfirecat

Sorry, still new hear so I get a delightful tingle in my spine when I manage to make the top 10 comments, still have all the ones I've done it with faved including my very first "Frankly my dear I don't give a ding..."...

Having been in the bottom ten and the top ten, I can confirm that the latter is better.

120

wrenchwench Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:53:49am

To be fair, McDonnell did proclaim Black History Month in February. I think he was going for even-handedness, but had the foresight to avoid the term White History Month.

121

Obdicut Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:53:55am

re: #118 Cannadian Club Akbar

I go for the total lack of historical accuracy, but I stay for the health code violations.

122

Vicious Michigan Union Thug Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:54:04am

re: #112 reine.de.tout

Yes, but the Civil War battlefields are here; the WWII battlefields are not, and that plays into it, I think.

There are folks who for some reason I cannot personally fathom enjoy dressing up in the costumes and going out and camping in the way soldiers did then, etc etc etc.

Again I don't personally get it. Neither do I understand the folks who dress up in medieval costumes and go to the medieval sorts of fairs which are held periodically, but there are plenty of folks who do it.

Somebody should write a Cracked.com list "The 5 most nostalgic historical eras that completely sucked"

123

What, me worry? Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:54:05am

re: #110 ludwigvanquixote

There are also the Black Cherokee nation. They are the descendent's of intermarriage after some of those soldiers were adopted into the tribe.

Fleeing slaves were accepted by the southeastern tribes, all the way down through Florida, but they weren't called Buffalo soldiers. Buffalo soldiers fought out west.

124

albusteve Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:54:09am

re: #116 marjoriemoon

I have quite a number of Native American friends and none of them have any respect for the Buffalo soldiers. They teamed up with the whites against the Indians.

yes, but there is nothing unnatural about it...Indians hated nearly anybody that was using or stealing their land

125

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:54:21am

re: #109 Charles

Oops, had a version conflict and resolved it by merging a source file that didn't have that code in it. It's fixed now.

And there I am number 7 of the top ten comments of the day, YAY! (Blows party noise maker)

Also for those interested in my ever continuing struggle towards an AKP (Average Karma per Post) of 2 I am now 1/4th of the way there at 1.25 and a bunch of other numbers after the 5 as of this morning!

126

Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:54:34am

re: #122 Alouette

Somebody should write a Cracked.com list "The 5 most nostalgic historical eras that completely sucked"

Two words: Flushing toilets.

127

[deleted] Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:54:47am

128

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:54:49am

re: #98 Alouette

He's not smart enough for Bottom.

But I'm betting he's a bottom in his seekrit sex life.

129

Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:54:54am

re: #88 jamesfirecat

You're forgetting the part where they never lost a bomber they were escorting to enemy action... at least that's something I recall hearing once or twice...

I think the TA group has disclaimed that. Our town's Airman died last year. We built a Habitat house across the street from him.

130

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:54:56am

RSM in the context of Shakespeare would be Demetrius from Titus Andronicus, a little sniveling, conniving, sociopath who wouldn't lead a terrible act, but would willingly participate if he thought he could get away with it.

131

Obdicut Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:55:06am

re: #126 EmmmieG

"I forgot how much the past reeks"

-- King Mob

132

Spider Mensch Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:57:55am

re: #99 Cato the Elder

In other news, I am looking forward to yet another exciting season of utterly disregarding the existence of baseball.

if I lived in Baltimore...so would I...;^)

133

Holidays are Family Fun Time Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:58:09am

Hey all!

A drive-by post to share (if it hasn't been already) the discovery of a new species of Giant Lizard!

Hey, I thought it was news.

Have a great day all!

134

Randall Gross Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:58:29am

re: #9 MandyManners

So basically as a desperation move as they were at the tag end of losing the war they sent out a boot squad to round up forced black recruits. Prior to that they wouldn't countenance it.

135

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:58:34am

re: #112 reine.de.tout

Yes, but the Civil War battlefields are here; the WWII battlefields are not, and that plays into it, I think.

There are folks who for some reason I cannot personally fathom enjoy dressing up in the costumes and going out and camping in the way soldiers did then, etc etc etc.

Again I don't personally get it. Neither do I understand the folks who dress up in medieval costumes and go to the medieval sorts of fairs which are held periodically, but there are plenty of folks who do it.

Well the Civil war stuff is a totally different breed then the Rennfest types.

The Rennfest, with the exception of a few lost souls are people who ike to pretend they are people from high fantasy for a day and mostly drink, shop and hang out as a social thing.

The Civil war re-enactor types have much more of a lifestyle to it.

Also, at the Rennfest their are girls, in bodices with flowy skirts. It is important to not discount the heaving bosoms aspectr ;)

136

Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:58:43am

re: #96 Joo-LiZ

Yeah, as a Canadian I'm quite out of touch with the sensitivities involved in the Civil War.

My Apologies, I didn't click on your profile link and realize that until just now.

It's not just the civil war, it's the realization that Blacks in America were treated, frankly, like shit, for the longest time. Things are a lot better now, but even relatively recently there's been some crappy behavior that happened, If you're bored, you can look up Hosea Williams and the March in Forsyth County, GA in 1987 and the stoning and beating him and the marchers received:

Bonnie M. Pike, an inspector of field operations for the Georgia Bureau of Investigation told The Associated Press, "We lost control of the crowd." The Forsyth County Sheriff, Wesley C. Walraven Jr., said he had not been prepared for the large turnout of segregationists protesting the march.

Remember, that's only 23 years ago. In fact, just to give you an idea of the latent segregationist attitudes in America, you didn't even see a plurality of people supporting interracial marriage until about 1990 or so.

I really think racists almost never change their views, they just hide them until they feel it's safe to express it.

137

What, me worry? Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:58:54am

re: #124 albusteve

yes, but there is nothing unnatural about it...Indians hated nearly anybody that was using or stealing their land

You can't really lump all the natives into "Indians". They were very different peoples. The Eastern bands were mostly sedimentary, farmers and fisherman, whereas the western bands were more nomadic. They had southern and northern homes and went back and forth between them.

The first encounters with whites (1600s?) were very favorable actually. It wasn't until 100s of years later that it turned horribly ugly.

138

3eff Jeff Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:59:04am

re: #122 Alouette

Somebody should write a Cracked.com list "The 5 most nostalgic historical eras that completely sucked"

That would just be "The 5 most nostalgic historical eras". Because, really, indoor plumbing, air conditioning and modern medicine are awesome.

Also, being not white before the 1980s totally sucked, no matter where you were (and it still sucks depending on your situation). For that matter, my family only became white sometime in the '50s or '60s.

139

What, me worry? Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:59:33am

re: #112 reine.de.tout

Yes, but the Civil War battlefields are here; the WWII battlefields are not, and that plays into it, I think.

There are folks who for some reason I cannot personally fathom enjoy dressing up in the costumes and going out and camping in the way soldiers did then, etc etc etc.

Again I don't personally get it. Neither do I understand the folks who dress up in medieval costumes and go to the medieval sorts of fairs which are held periodically, but there are plenty of folks who do it.

I had a renaissance wedding lol

140

drcordell Wed, Apr 7, 2010 10:59:54am

Just had a comment deleted, and I'm not sure why. Was it that it was off-topic, or because I accidentally posted a link to Breitbart.com?

141

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:00:36am

re: #128 Cato the Elder

But I'm betting he's a bottom in his seekrit sex life.

Don't insult bottoms that way. I'll tell you straight up[, he's the guy who dreams he would be the baddest ass "master" ever, but could never get a date.

142

Mostly sane, most of the time. Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:01:02am

re: #135 ludwigvanquixote

Last summer at the WWII reenactment, there was a guy who I was willing to bet was wearing historically accurate underwear. He had every single thing you would need to be a paratrooper with a specific division. Every single last thing.

These guys sleep in their tents and eat C-rations. I watched an article for a reenactment magazine being typed on an old typewriter.

It is a lifestyle, not that I would knock it.

143

Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:01:11am

re: #135 ludwigvanquixote

It's just not a renn-faire without wenches and beer. But I have to say it is a lifestyle for quite a few people I know. Granted they do their day jobs and act normal but they would dress that way in a heart beat, every day.

144

reine.de.tout Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:01:28am

re: #135 ludwigvanquixote

Well the Civil war stuff is a totally different breed then the Rennfest types.

The Rennfest, with the exception of a few lost souls are people who ike to pretend they are people from high fantasy for a day and mostly drink, shop and hang out as a social thing.

The Civil war re-enactor types have much more of a lifestyle to it.

Also, at the Rennfest their are girls, in bodices with flowy skirts. It is important to not discount the heaving bosoms aspectr ;)

Whatever.

I got seriously smacked the other day for implying that ALL of somebody did something, and now . . . some folks seem to be smacking me for agreeing that ALL those who take part in civil war reenactments have some sort of sinister something going on their heads.

Sheesh -

i got errands to run.
later.

145

badger1970 Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:01:30am

Pittsburgh and Baltimore head offices. Major League

146

darthstar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:02:44am

re: #140 drcordell

Just had a comment deleted, and I'm not sure why. Was it that it was off-topic, or because I accidentally posted a link to Breitbart.com?

Probably the Breitbart link. I think it's kind of cool how Charles prevents assholes like Breitbart from getting referrer headers from LGF...you're welcome to go browse there, but they get no bandwidth from here.

147

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:02:51am

re: #144 reine.de.tout

Whatever.

I got seriously smacked the other day for implying that ALL of somebody did something, and now . . . some folks seem to be smacking me for agreeing that ALL those who take part in civil war reenactments have some sort of sinister something going on their heads.

Sheesh -

i got errands to run.
later.

Wow, Reine, sorry! Seriously, no smack intended or meant!

148

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:03:27am

re: #145 badger1970

Pittsburgh and Baltimore head offices. Major League

As a Rays fan, I would like to thank Baltimore for giving up 2 in the bottom of the 9th last night.

149

reine.de.tout Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:03:42am

re: #147 ludwigvanquixote

Wow, Reine, sorry! Seriously, no smack intended or meant!

OH!
Right, sorry, I didn't mean you.
Just in a rush. . .

150

Decatur Deb Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:04:40am

re: #142 EmmmieG

Last summer at the WWII reenactment, there was a guy who I was willing to bet was wearing historically accurate underwear. He had every single thing you would need to be a paratrooper with a specific division. Every single last thing.

These guys sleep in their tents and eat C-rations. I watched an article for a reenactment magazine being typed on an old typewriter.

It is a lifestyle, not that I would knock it.

An excellent recent book was "Confederates in the Attic" by a Romanian-born journalist. He makes the same point about hard-core re-enactors.

151

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:04:57am

re: #143 Dreggas

It's just not a renn-faire without wenches and beer. But I have to say it is a lifestyle for quite a few people I know. Granted they do their day jobs and act normal but they would dress that way in a heart beat, every day.

Well that's true. ;)

And did I mention that we should encourage girls to wear low cut blouses, flowy skirts and bodices?

As to myself, I would honestly love it if we could go about our day to day with a rapier or a salamanca at our sides. I have a long rant about why this would be a better world if you allowed this and took guns away - but that is for another time.

152

windsagio Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:05:07am

I'm not a big fan of war reenactment in general tho', it bespeaks to me an unseemly fascination with the subject.

Unless the battle is near you, that seems different ot me somehow ;)

153

Joo-LiZ Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:05:07am

re: #136 bloodstar

Remember, that's only 23 years ago. In fact, just to give you an idea of the latent segregationist attitudes in America, you didn't even see a plurality of people supporting interracial marriage until about 1990 or so.

I really think racists almost never change their views, they just hide them until they feel it's safe to express it.

I grew up in Toronto, which is a relatively multi-cultural city and you don't see many problems based exclusively on race, especially in terms of Black/White. The most common problems are when two communities from elsewhere in the world have issues (such as Tamil/Senhalese or Arab/Israeli), but that is very different from actual racism. Because of that, I used to think that a lot of the brouhaha over race relations was very contrived, or at the least was simply designed to keep past-grievances alive.

I've spent the last few months in Indiana though, and it's kinda jarring to see the difference in various neighbourhoods. My old impressions were very much limited to the experiences back home.

154

What, me worry? Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:06:13am

re: #142 EmmmieG

Last summer at the WWII reenactment, there was a guy who I was willing to bet was wearing historically accurate underwear. He had every single thing you would need to be a paratrooper with a specific division. Every single last thing.

These guys sleep in their tents and eat C-rations. I watched an article for a reenactment magazine being typed on an old typewriter.

It is a lifestyle, not that I would knock it.

lol We use to go to "Rendezvous" they called them. Kind of a Mountain Man, Indian mix thing. It was in Plant City, Florida (home of the Strawberry Festival). Everything had to be authentic. No metal, plastic or rayon tents. Park your car and walk into the place. Tents had to be canvas or wood, or a teepee (lodge) made of canvas or animal skin. Iron pots only. No lighters or fluid. It was fun. Actually there was NO, NONE, NADA racist crap there that I'd see at the biker rallies. The women would trade beads for crafting and the guys traded knives and sheaths. There were contests, turkey shoots, knife throwing. I only went twice, but I really enjoyed it.

155

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:07:39am

re: #132 Spider Mensch

if I lived in Baltimore...so would I...;^)

LOL. Touché!

Actually it's a simple matter of memory space. I have genius friends who have the entire periodic table of elements memorized and know who's on first at any given moment.

All of my ROM goes for languages and rhymes.

As for baseball, I'm lucky I still remember the rules of the game from my vermiculated youth, when I was relegated to left field by default.

My dad is a scientist, my mother a linguist, and the sports gene expressed itself in me via long-distance bicycle riding in summer and speed-skating in winter.

Everything else is a total mystery to me, especially things like $14 million contracts for being able to catch a ball.

156

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:09:20am

re: #149 reine.de.tout

OH!
Right, sorry, I didn't mean you.
Just in a rush. . .

Reine: working on back-copy poem right now.

How many lines do I get? (I.e. what is the format of the cookbook?)

157

Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:11:43am

re: #151 ludwigvanquixote

I am in full agreement and considering my sword to firearm ratio is heavily stacked in favor of the sword I agree with you as well on that one (though I do hunt and firearms are convenient for that).

158

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:11:43am

re: #151 ludwigvanquixote

Well that's true. ;)

And did I mention that we should encourage girls to wear low cut blouses, flowy skirts and bodices?

As to myself, I would honestly love it if we could go about our day to day with a rapier or a salamanca at our sides. I have a long rant about why this would be a better world if you allowed this and took guns away - but that is for another time.

Talk to me sometime about my sword-cane. Very comforting in certain sitches, and if you make sure to reverse your hands when you draw it, you now have a stick in one hand and a sword in the other.

Still doesn't help with gunfights, though.

159

jaunte Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:12:06am

re: #156 Cato the Elder

Cato, I can answer that; I've got a column about 1 1/2 inches by 5 1/2 inches on the back cover to work with.

160

Spare O'Lake Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:12:53am

This is all very interesting. It reminds me of that movie Glory about the black troops (not slaves) in the Union Army who were commanded by a very white guy. Teh northern bigotry and segregation was plenty strong.

161

Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:12:54am

re: #158 Cato the Elder

Still doesn't help with gunfights, though.

which is why the scene in Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the lost ark was funny. Fancy sword play meets revolver.

162

albusteve Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:13:07am

factoid...

the first four non indigenous men to step foot into what is now New Mexico were lost wanders that walked all the way from Florida to northwest New Spain...the heartiest of them was a black slave belonging to another of the four...his name was Estevan

later he was the principle guide of a small band of explorers who tried to search out Cibola, the Seven Cities of Gold thought to be somewhere in northern NM...Estevan was well ahead of the rest scouting the terrain when he stumbled onto the Zuni pueblo in western NM where he was promptly killed

163

Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:13:42am

re: #160 Spare O'Lake

THAT was an excellent movie.

164

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:14:13am

re: #161 Dreggas

which is why the scene in Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the lost ark was funny. Fancy sword play meets revolver.

Also, Harrison Ford had some kind of bug that kept him near a bathroom. They re-wrote the scene for that reason.

165

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:14:18am

re: #159 jaunte

Cato, I can answer that; I've got a column about 1 1/2 inches by 5 1/2 inches on the back cover to work with.

re: #159 jaunte

Cato, I can answer that; I've got a column about 1 1/2 inches by 5 1/2 inches on the back cover to work with.

Ah, thank you. I should have asked that question right off the bat.

I guess the full-length Lizardiad I was working on will have to await separate publication... ;^)

166

jamesfirecat Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:15:04am

re: #164 Cannadian Club Akbar

Also, Harrison Ford had some kind of bug that kept him near a bathroom. They re-wrote the scene for that reason.

All Harrison's Ford's greatest moments on film have been him add libbing.

Same way with the "We're all fine hear, how are you?" Speech.

167

jaunte Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:15:23am

re: #165 Cato the Elder

Send it along too, I'll put it in somewhere!

168

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:15:32am

re: #156 Cato the Elder

Reine: working on back-copy poem right now.

How many lines do I get? (I.e. what is the format of the cookbook?)

Cato, may I commission your skills as a wordsmith?

I'm working on a ditty that just isn't scanning right and doesn't quite have the right bite to it...

I
I
Think it's
Too bad that
medication can't
fix TFK in any way.

P.S. extra credit if you retain the mathematical pattern!

169

Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:15:37am

re: #164 Cannadian Club Akbar

now that I did not know. Makes it even funnier in some respects. "Dude I'd love to sword fight but I really gotta get to a bathroom" followed by "Bang".

170

badger1970 Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:16:47am

re: #169 Dreggas

Of course he would have to decide or bathroom or get the girl, bathroom or get the girl....

171

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:16:57am

re: #166 jamesfirecat

All Harrison's Ford's greatest moments on film have been him add libbing.

Same way with the "We're all fine hear, how are you?" Speech.

From Wiki:
The fight scenes in the town were filmed in Kairouan; by then Ford was suffering from dysentery and did not want to shoot a fight scene between Indiana and a swordsman. He said to Spielberg "Why don't we just shoot the sucker?" Spielberg agreed, scrapped the rest of the fight scene, and filmed the gag of Indiana quickly gunning down the swordsman.[24] The truck chase was shot entirely by the second-unit who mostly followed Spielberg's storyboards, though they decided to add Indiana being dragged by the truck. Spielberg shot all the close-ups with Ford afterwards.[3]

172

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:18:01am

re: #159 jaunte

Cato, I can answer that; I've got a column about 1 1/2 inches by 5 1/2 inches on the back cover to work with.

Could you do me a favor and email me the front cover? I downloaded it but it's lost in the bowels of my iMac! Nick is blue.

173

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:19:42am

re: #162 albusteve

Don't mess with New Mexico!

174

jaunte Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:20:11am

re: #172 Cato the Elder

Here 'tis: Image: LGFCookbook2Cover.jpg

175

albusteve Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:20:58am

re: #173 Cato the Elder

Don't mess with New Mexico!

or the Zuni

176

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:21:07am

re: #157 Dreggas

I am in full agreement and considering my sword to firearm ratio is heavily stacked in favor of the sword I agree with you as well on that one (though I do hunt and firearms are convenient for that).

Ahh sword porn!

BTW, I knew the GF was really a keeper when I found out she knew Oakenshott!

Alrighty then all sword geeks!

Would you rather have a:

one hand vs two hand?
cutting vs. slashing vs. piercing

Personally, I am in favor of something like an Oakenshott type XIIIb

and this is my dream sword - i.e. if I could only have one.

[Link: www.albion-swords.com...]

Though, I also, love pallaches and English back swords and straight blade sabers.

177

albusteve Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:21:44am

re: #174 jaunte

Here 'tis: Image: LGFCookbook2Cover.jpg

another excellent picture...perfect!

178

Bubblehead II Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:21:50am

re: #161 Dreggas

It was also practically unscripted. Harrison Ford was supposed to take him on with his whip, but at the time of the shoot, was ill and didn't feel up to. It was suggested that he instead pull the revolver and shot the guy. Spielberg liked the idea and changed the script on the spot.

179

Cannadian Club Akbar Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:23:50am

re: #178 Bubblehead II

See my 164 and 171.:)

180

Cato the Elder Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:28:12am

re: #175 albusteve

or the Zuni

When I was in Taos in January, I helped out this hitchhiker kid who was on the bum in the middle of winter with a backpack, a fifteen-week-old puppy, and no cash. Nighttime temperatures were around 4 degrees at the time. He couldn't go to the men's shelter, because some nice local NIMBYs had torched the men's shelter about a month before. I ended up getting him a motel room for the night and tried to talk some sense into him (e.g. "if you're gonna be on the bum in winter, find a fucking warm place"), but he was impervious. Like me, at that age.

One of his goals was to clime the "sacred mountain" outside of town. I don't know if that's Zuni country or not, but well-meaning local Indians told him he'd get is throat cut before he ever got near the summit.

I hope he listened to them better than he listened to me.

181

reine.de.tout Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:28:45am

re: #156 Cato the Elder

Reine: working on back-copy poem right now.

How many lines do I get? (I.e. what is the format of the cookbook?)

I think size is like, 6x8 or close to it.

For you, because you are so special - you get as many lines as you want or need!

182

Bubblehead II Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:37:23am

re: #179 Cannadian Club Akbar

Running a bit behind.

183

lawhawk Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:40:48am

re: #160 Spare O'Lake

That would be Robert Gould Shaw, and there's a memorial in Boston in the Boston Commons to him and the Mass 54th that was used in the closing or opening sequence to the movie.

184

lawhawk Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:45:25am

re: #155 Cato the Elder

Mrs. Lawhawk gives me grief for trying to memorize the periodic table (I can name nearly all of them, but not necessarily where they are on the table).

185

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:47:44am

re: #15 windsagio

heh why is it so important for people to insist that blacks served the confederacy? What would that actually show?

It would show that this was much much more complicated than we understand today, and the relationship between blacks and whites in the South was really complicated and multi-layered, and we shouldn't insist on imposing our meanie modern Northern/modern sensibilities on all of this.

//Yeah, RIGHT.

//Also, people have heard it said for many years, so they tend to assume it to be true.

186

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:48:50am

re: #24 drcordell

Only in the American South is there a clamoring to remember a war that was lost. Imagine if the French passed an official resolution to celebrate the "heritage" of the Vichy government.

No one ever made a romantic motion picture starring Vivian Leigh about Vichy.

187

Mad Prophet Ludwig Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:06:01pm

OK humor break. Here are some gay black Jewish klansmen for tolerance and understanding. I wonder if they are allowed in the big tent?

[Link: www.jewcy.com...]

188

subliminator Wed, Apr 7, 2010 2:32:53pm

re: #6 Charles

Charles Dempsey, Private, Company F, 36th NC Regiment (2nd NC Artillery). Henry Dempsey, Private, Company F, 36th NC Regiment (2nd NC Artillery). J. Doyle, Private, Company E, 40th NC Regiment (3rd NC Artillery). Daniel Herring, Cook, Company F, 36th NC Regiment (2nd NC Artillery). All four men were captured at Fort Fisher, NC, on January 15,1865 and confined at Point Lookout, MD, until paroled and exchanged at Coxes Landing, James River, VA, February 14-15, 1865. All four men were treated as Prisoners of War. All four men were Black. The fact that each of these men have service records in the National Archives files (M270, go look it up) indicates they were treated as SOLDIERS from the rebel state of North Carolina by conquering Union forces. The assertion that there were no blacks that fought for the Confederacy is factually inaccurate.

189

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 7, 2010 2:44:20pm

re: #188 subliminator

You haven't shown that they were "fighting" at all. They were slaves. They had no choice about where they were sent, or why. The point is not whether the Union Army called these people prisoners of war -- it's whether the Confederate Army called them SOLDIERS. And they did NOT.

You also didn't link to anything to prove your assertions.

Even if this is true, which I'm not going to just take at the word of an anonymous blog commenter, you have cited FOUR WHOLE BLACK SOLDIERS.

Wow. Impressive.

190

subliminator Wed, Apr 7, 2010 2:48:20pm

re: #189 Charles

Not trying to comment. Just pointing out the Union treated them as POWs. Those are, usually, soldiers. Not slaves.

191

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 7, 2010 2:50:01pm

re: #190 subliminator

Not trying to comment. Just pointing out the Union treated them as POWs. Those are, usually, soldiers. Not slaves.

They were soldiers if they were enlisted in the Confederate Army, and you will be completely unable to prove this supposition, because it's simply not true.

192

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 7, 2010 3:05:33pm

Here's what black people were actually doing at Fort Fisher during the Civil War.

Over time, more than a thousand individuals including Confederate soldiers and slaves, had toiled at the location. The efforts had drawn more than 500 black slaves from nearby plantations.

193

Randall Gross Wed, Apr 7, 2010 3:08:46pm

re: #191 Charles

You missed one word: "Willingly" enlisted. There appears to have been one instance from earlier threads where someone used a boot squad and forcibly recruited some black slaves near the tag end of the war as part of a desperation ploy, this from the earlier links in the earlier thread.

Regardless, Slavery was evil, the civil war was fought over it and because of it, and the secessionist Southern staters led us into the bloodiest war for US troops ever. They were on the wrong side of the war, the wrong side of history, and have no honor no matter what their apologists say.

194

[deleted] Wed, Apr 7, 2010 4:45:16pm

195

Charles Johnson Wed, Apr 7, 2010 5:10:39pm

re: #194 DaveC13

Get off my website.

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