New Details on Kissinger and Operation Condor

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Henry Kissinger has long been accused of denying and/or downplaying the danger of the covert assassination plan Operation Condor, and the Los Angeles Times has a story about a newly declassified document that gives even more weight to these accusations, suggesting that Kissinger canceled sending a cable that might have alerted officials to the plot to assassinate Orlando Letelier in Washington DC: Kissinger cable heightens suspicions about 1976 Operation Condor killings.

A newly declassified document has added to long-standing questions about whether Henry Kissinger, while secretary of State, halted a U.S. plan to curb a secret program of international assassinations by South American dictators.

The document, a set of instructions cabled from Kissinger to his top Latin American deputy, ended efforts by U.S. diplomats to warn the governments of Chile, Uruguay and Argentina against involvement in the covert plan known as Operation Condor, according to Peter Kornbluh, an analyst with the National Security Archive, a private research organization that uncovered the document and made it public Saturday.

In the cable, dated Sept. 16, 1976, Kissinger rejected delivering a proposed warning to the government of Uruguay about Condor operations and ordered that “no further action be taken on this matter” by the State Department.

Five days after Kissinger’s message, Chilean exile Orlando Letelier and an American colleague were killed in Washington’s Embassy Row in a car bombing later tied to Chilean secret police working through the Condor network. The killings are considered one of the most brazen attacks ever carried out in the capital.

“The document confirms that it’s Kissinger’s complete responsibility for having rescinded a cease-and-desist order to Condor killers,” said Kornbluh, author of a 2004 book on Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet.

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313 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 11:55:34am

Ouch... wish I was old enough to truly appreciate the meaning of this...

2 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 11:57:28am

I need a little while to absorb this. Is the upshot of this that a domestic terrorist attack in the US can be tied to Kissinger's policies?

That's what it seems to say.

3 fizzlogic  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:00:31pm

1976? Hmm, I only remember Three Days of the Condor.

4 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:02:41pm

I don't think it's a direct tie -- the most they're saying right now is that Kissinger blocked the sending of a cable that would have told South American leaders (dictators, most of them) not to support Operation Condor.

In the days before the Letelier bombing, that might have been enough to get the plan called off. And it might not. No way to know for sure.

But this cable does make the case for Kissinger's involvement with Condor that much stronger.

5 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:02:45pm

re: #2 Obdicut

I need a little while to absorb this. Is the upshot of this that a domestic terrorist attack in the US can be tied to Kissinger's policies?

That's what it seems to say.

Not terrorism. This was an attack aimed at the killing of a specific person. It seems to me an overreaction by the Pinochet regime. I understand why they wanted that lousy socialist ass out of Chile, but why did they want to kill him after he was gone?

6 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:04:32pm

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

Because the Pinochet regime was a bunch of fascists who routinely killed the opposition, and our support of them was completely morally bankrupt.

7 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:11:44pm

re: #6 Obdicut

Because the Pinochet regime was a bunch of fascists who routinely killed the opposition, and our support of them was completely morally bankrupt.

I'm going to get downdined a lot for this one: I think supporting Pinochet's coup was the correct decision. Allende was courting Cuban support and had pushed plans to "introduce socialism at once". He had to be considered hostile to our interests and we really could not afford Chile as a Soviet satellite. He had to go and his support base had to be destroyed.

8 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:13:08pm

I remember those days. People who said the Soviet Union and the US were in many ways mirror images of each other were right, especially as regards "our" treatment of "our" backyard.

The stuff the Soviets got up to in Eastern Europe was bad. So was what we did in Central and South America.

9 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:14:30pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

And the thousands of people killed by Pinochet, tortured by him, the money he and his thugs stole from his people-- while the CIA kept many of them on our payroll-- what of them?

If you use Saddam's treatment of his citizens as one of the things legitimizing our invasion of Iraq, how can you possibly say that supporting a military coup of a Saddam-like figure is the right thing to do?

10 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:17:42pm

Cui bono.

11 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:19:14pm

re: #8 Cato the Elder

I remember those days. People who said the Soviet Union and the US were in many ways mirror images of each other were right, especially as regards "our" treatment of "our" backyard.

The stuff the Soviets got up to in Eastern Europe was bad. So was what we did in Central and South America.

Nicely said. I'm actually taking a class on modern Latin American history. Really interesting stuff and reading a book for the class about the student movement in Mexico circa 1968.

12 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:20:29pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, democracy is against our interests.

13 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:21:07pm

re: #9 Obdicut

And the thousands of people killed by Pinochet, tortured by him, the money he and his thugs stole from his people-- while the CIA kept many of them on our payroll-- what of them?

If you use Saddam's treatment of his citizens as one of the things legitimizing our invasion of Iraq, how can you possibly say that supporting a military coup of a Saddam-like figure is the right thing to do?

My concern is mainly for America. In the case of Chile, that meant throwing those people to the wolves. I'm not proud of it, but we did what we had to do. Moral considerations simply don't enter into it. It was an action based on power politics and I'm defending it only on those grounds.

14 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:21:19pm

No smoking gun, just some speculation.

15 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:21:51pm

re: #4 Charles

No good comes of support for fascist regimes.

16 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:22:46pm
17 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:22:48pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to get downdined a lot for this one: I think supporting Pinochet's coup was the correct decision. Allende was courting Cuban support and had pushed plans to "introduce socialism at once". He had to be considered hostile to our interests and we really could not afford Chile as a Soviet satellite. He had to go and his support base had to be destroyed.

Murky waters, but we had to go in.

18 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:24:58pm

South American politics were dirty in the extreme in those days, but in this case we ended up giving covert support to an operation that probably resulted in an attack on US soil.

19 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:25:14pm

re: #12 Olsonist

Yeah, democracy is against our interests.

And Allende was a savior?

20 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:25:34pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

I find those grounds to be completely indefensible, and indistinguishable from the 'grounds' that every dictator has used throughout history to excuse their own actions.

I also think it's factually wrong. By our support for dictators and radical groups in the world, I think we have actively destabilized many countries.

America is not an island, and the more often we take actions solely based on our own calculus of our own benefit, the less often any nation on earth has reason to trust us or support us. The US missed a gigantic opportunity to be a real world leader for democracy and freedom after World War II. Instead, we took a murkier solution, trading being pro-Democracy for being anti-Soviet, and I think Afghanistan shows us the tragic failure of that policy.

21 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:27:00pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

The USSR was not going to be a step closer to invading the mainland US/laucnhing nukes with a soft left satellite in Chile.

The bluff was called in Cuba with the missile crisis with much harder line left wingers.

Throwing an entire population under the bus in self interest isn't the right thing to do on many occasions, this was definitely not one of them.

22 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:27:05pm

re: #18 Charles

The attacks would have happened regardless, in my opinion.

Attacks in the US come with publicity for the cause du jour.

It is as true now as it was then.

23 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:27:43pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

Sorry about the downding but supporting state sponsored terrorism and the overthrow of a legitimately elected government are not things that reflect American values.

24 shiplord kirel  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:27:54pm
In the cable, dated Sept. 16, 1976, Kissinger rejected delivering a proposed warning to the government of Uruguay about Condor operations and ordered that “no further action be taken on this matter” by the State Department.

My reading of this is that the cancelled note was intended only for Uruguay and not for Chile, which we now know was directly responsible for the Letelier hit. The situation in Uruguay at the time is highly relevant.
President Juan Bordaberry, who had been installed in a military coup in 1973, had been removed in June, 3 months before the Kissinger action. It was Bordaberry who had created a notorious torture regime in Uruguay. He was replaced by the elderly and much more moderate Alberto Demicheli, who favored a partial restoration of civil rights. Demicheli, in turn, was replaced by Aparicio Méndez in early September. It was Mendez who supervised the return to democracy, with a Constitutional referendum in 1980. This resulted in the defeat of the military regime's program and a return to democracy.
In light of these events, and the changes taking place at the time, it is likely that Kissinger decided the warning was not necessary for Uruguay, which had already taken steps to moderate its policies.

As a postscript, Bordaberry was arrested on November 17th 2006 and charged with involvement in the assasinations of two exiled legilators, Zelmar Micheliniand Héctor Gutiérrez and in Argentina in May, 1976. He was convicted and sentenced to 30 years. He is now 81 years old and is in poor health.

25 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:28:35pm

re: #22 researchok

How, exactly, would this guy have been assassinated in the US-- along with an American citizen, remember-- if he hadn't had to flee from Chile?

26 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:28:42pm

Is Virginia's attorney general the craziest AG in America? He just might be.

He told a crowd he was thinking of not registering his son for a social security number because "it is being used to track you."

WOW

27 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:29:49pm

re: #20 Obdicut

I find those grounds to be completely indefensible, and indistinguishable from the 'grounds' that every dictator has used throughout history to excuse their own actions.

I also think it's factually wrong. By our support for dictators and radical groups in the world, I think we have actively destabilized many countries.

America is not an island, and the more often we take actions solely based on our own calculus of our own benefit, the less often any nation on earth has reason to trust us or support us. The US missed a gigantic opportunity to be a real world leader for democracy and freedom after World War II. Instead, we took a murkier solution, trading being pro-Democracy for being anti-Soviet, and I think Afghanistan shows us the tragic failure of that policy.

There is merit to the point you are trying to make.

That said, do you suggest we cut off the Arab world? Ought we encourage revolt?

Principles and politics are two very different animals, I'm afraid.

28 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:29:57pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to get downdined a lot for this one: I think supporting Pinochet's coup was the correct decision. Allende was courting Cuban support and had pushed plans to "introduce socialism at once". He had to be considered hostile to our interests and we really could not afford Chile as a Soviet satellite. He had to go and his support base had to be destroyed.

On what moral ground? Only to be replaced by the puppet Pinochet who then went on to murder 3,200 Chileans and torture close to 30,000? Then there were the secrets arms deals of the Pinochet regime.

29 shiplord kirel  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:30:24pm

re: #26 WindUpBird

Is Virginia's attorney general the craziest AG in America? He just might be.

WOW

I hope we don't find a crazier one ;)

30 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:30:25pm

re: #8 Cato the Elder

I remember those days. People who said the Soviet Union and the US were in many ways mirror images of each other were right, especially as regards "our" treatment of "our" backyard.

The stuff the Soviets got up to in Eastern Europe was bad. So was what we did in Central and South America.

How many deaths was the USSR responsible for in their sphere of influence compared to the US in ours?

That is one jacked up mirror!

31 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:31:33pm

re: #25 Obdicut

How, exactly, would this guy have been assassinated in the US-- along with an American citizen, remember-- if he hadn't had to flee from Chile?

Terrorists (and psycho ideologues) are like whackamoles- knock one down and another comes up.

South American politics at the time were a continental Disneyworld of dysfunction and corruption.

32 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:31:45pm

re: #29 shiplord kirel

I hope we don't find a crazier one ;)

Draft Orly Taitz!!11

33 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:32:29pm

re: #27 researchok

I think we should realize that we cannot shape the entire world to our liking, but have to sometimes react to things we can't change.

With the Middle East, if we develop green energy technology, we remove much of their power. Likewise, if we demand from our trading partners better conditions for their workers, etc., we could achieve great good.

We have an enormous power in our economy that we don't use for what we should. We could use it much more to promote the values we believe in.

34 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:32:56pm

laters kids.

just about to have desert.

35 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:33:03pm

re: #31 researchok

Could you give a shot at answering the question I asked? What you said doesn't relate to it.

36 lostlakehiker  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:33:19pm

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

My concern is mainly for America. In the case of Chile, that meant throwing those people to the wolves. I'm not proud of it, but we did what we had to do. Moral considerations simply don't enter into it. It was an action based on power politics and I'm defending it only on those grounds.

Moral considerations DO enter into it. But there are heavy weights in the scales on both sides. The rise to power of communism around the world has been attended by mass murder on a scale utterly dwarfing what tinpot south american dictators get up to.

If you're averting another Killing Fields, then it is scarcely possible to do enough harm that you ought to have just allowed it instead. Other communist regimes were not that insanely evil, but they were all deliberately and systematically evil. Castro included.

Stopping something like that may require harsh measures, including assassinations. Singapore's president Lee Kuan Yu saved Singapore from a communist takeover but it wasn't pretty. Greece was kept out of the communist orbit and again it wasn't pretty. But ugly or not, sometimes fire must be fought with fire.

37 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:33:31pm

re: #34 wozzablog

about to have just desert.

Fixed that for you.

38 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:34:19pm

re: #19 researchok

Actually, Allende was elected. Pinochet was the dictator.re: #30 rwdflynavy

How many deaths was the USSR responsible for in their sphere of influence compared to the US in ours?

That is one jacked up mirror!

Translated into English: our enemy is worse than we are so clearly we aren't being bad enough.

39 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:34:34pm

re: #37 Obdicut

appreciated.

although i do much prefer the cheesecake i'm about to tuck into...........

40 yenta-fada  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:35:14pm

AFAIK, Nations are not moral entities in the academic sense. They can have politicians and leaders who are moral, amoral, or immoral. For example, I believe Chavez of Venezuela to be immoral. He has sold his own country out for the sake of grabbing more and more power on the world stage. He has turned a democracy into an almost thugocracy for the sake of his ego. His people no longer have freedom of speech and can have anything from their businesses to their lives sacrificed at the whim of their leadership. Their news stations have been obliterated, except for the State news. Their oil has been used to draw alliances with other Latin American nations, and the country has become a Hezbollah stronghold in the region. The people suffer an increasingly Cubanized way of life.

41 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:35:28pm

re: #26 WindUpBird

Is Virginia's attorney general the craziest AG in America? He just might be.

WOW

I'm so "proud" and even more ticked off at the Virginia Democratic Party for running such a shitty campaign in the fall. Cuccinelli though reminds me a lot of George Allen and that's not a compliment. This state needs more Republicans like John Warner and less like George Allen.

42 MrSilverDragon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:35:33pm

re: #34 wozzablog

laters kids.

just about to have desert.

Desert is too sandy for my tastes, but I hope you enjoy it!

/end smartass

43 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:36:46pm

re: #33 Obdicut

I think we should realize that we cannot shape the entire world to our liking, but have to sometimes react to things we can't change.

With the Middle East, if we develop green energy technology, we remove much of their power. Likewise, if we demand from our trading partners better conditions for their workers, etc., we could achieve great good.

We have an enormous power in our economy that we don't use for what we should. We could use it much more to promote the values we believe in.

I would love to develop green energy- wind, solar, etc.

That's the easy part. As of now, the greenies won't allow the transmission of power from major wind and solar projects.

As for demanding anything from these regimes is a waste of energy. I have noted before that

When nations that are that are led by or are under the influence of tyrants or dictators, attempt to justify those actions, we can rightly assume that justification is false. Tyrants and dictators do not make moral choices, because moral choices can only lead to the demise of the tyranny.

Anyone that comes to the defense of tyrannical regimes and their leaders, have themselves made a conscious choice to defend and stand by what is immoral. They themselves consciously adopt an immoral posture.

44 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:36:53pm

re: #40 yenta-fada

Their news stations have been obliterated

News stations and media outlets that called for open revolution and a military coup had their broadcasting licenses revoked, iir.

45 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:36:58pm
46 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:37:05pm

re: #24 shiplord kirel

My reading of this is that the cancelled note was intended only for Uruguay and not for Chile, which we now know was directly responsible for the Letelier hit. The situation in Uruguay at the time is highly relevant.
President Juan Bordaberry, who had been installed in a military coup in 1973, had been removed in June, 3 months before the Kissinger action. It was Bordaberry who had created a notorious torture regime in Uruguay. He was replaced by the elderly and much more moderate Alberto Demicheli, who favored a partial restoration of civil rights. Demicheli, in turn, was replaced by Aparicio Méndez in early September. It was Mendez who supervised the return to democracy, with a Constitutional referendum in 1980. This resulted in the defeat of the military regime's program and a return to democracy.
In light of these events, and the changes taking place at the time, it is likely that Kissinger decided the warning was not necessary for Uruguay, which had already taken steps to moderate its policies.

As a postscript, Bordaberry was arrested on November 17th 2006 and charged with involvement in the assasinations of two exiled legilators, Zelmar Micheliniand Héctor Gutiérrez and in Argentina in May, 1976. He was convicted and sentenced to 30 years. He is now 81 years old and is in poor health.

That's an interesting take on it, possibly with some merit. On the other hand, there's little doubt that all these dictators, semi-dictators, and possibly reforming semi-dictators were in constant contact, and an official US cable to one would be assumed to immediately leak to the others -- so a warning to Uruguay not to support Condor would be a warning to all of them.

47 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:37:29pm

re: #38 Olsonist

Translated into English: our enemy is worse than we are so clearly we aren't being bad enough.

That's easier than doing the math, isn't it...

48 alexknyc  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:37:31pm

re: #12 Olsonist

Yeah, democracy is against our interests.

Democracy is a process, not an outcome.

If we're serious about "exporting democracy," we need to be ready to live with (and deal with) democratically-elected governments that we don't like.

49 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:38:11pm

re: #38 Olsonist

Actually, Allende was elected. Pinochet was the dictator.re: #30 rwdflynavy

Translated into English: our enemy is worse than we are so clearly we aren't being bad enough.

Hitler came to power by way of free elections as well, as has Hamas.

Simply being elected does not make any regime a moral one or one that we have to deal with.

50 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:40:09pm

So, would a coup to bring down Obama's "socialist" régime and install an American Pinochet be justified under any circumstances?

51 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:40:14pm
52 shiplord kirel  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:40:22pm

re: #46 Charles

That's an interesting take on it, possibly with some merit. On the other hand, there's little doubt that all these dictators, semi-dictators, and possibly reforming semi-dictators were in constant contact, and an official US cable to one would be assumed to immediately leak to the others -- so a warning to Uruguay not to support Condor would be a warning to all of them.

We really need to find out if warnings were sent directly to Argentina and Chile, which were very much the senior partners in Condor.
I'll go back to digging.

53 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:40:23pm

re: #36 lostlakehiker

Moral considerations DO enter into it. But there are heavy weights in the scales on both sides. The rise to power of communism around the world has been attended by mass murder on a scale utterly dwarfing what tinpot south american dictators get up to.

If you're averting another Killing Fields, then it is scarcely possible to do enough harm that you ought to have just allowed it instead. Other communist regimes were not that insanely evil, but they were all deliberately and systematically evil. Castro included.

Stopping something like that may require harsh measures, including assassinations. Singapore's president Lee Kuan Yu saved Singapore from a communist takeover but it wasn't pretty. Greece was kept out of the communist orbit and again it wasn't pretty. But ugly or not, sometimes fire must be fought with fire.

Then why didn't we assassinate Jorge Rafael Videla? I think we know the answer to that. You want a killing field look at Argentina and Jorge Rafael Videla. 30,000 dead. But yes, these crimes were committed in the name of anti-Communism.

54 alexknyc  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:41:04pm

re: #49 researchok

Hitler came to power by way of free elections as well, as has Hamas.

There aren't too many historians who will say that the 1932 elections were "free."

Also, Hitler's emergency powers were not democratically obtained.

55 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:41:18pm

If they had replaced Allende with someone who wasn't a mass murderer like Pinochet then I doubt the controversy would be as high as it is today.

56 yenta-fada  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:43:01pm

re: #44 wozzablog

Chavez has the army in his pocket. He tolerates NO form of opposition. There are many oil workers who went to Calgary in Canada because they expressed opposition to Chavez's methods in running the oil industry. They were fired and Chavez ideologues put in their places. That's when their oil output lessened considerably. The people who actually knew how to run the business had been let go. Since that time, Venezuela started importing oil. ANY point of view opposing Chavez disappears in Venezuela. It's a dictatorship.

57 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:43:22pm

re: #54 alexknyc

There aren't too many historians who will say that the 1932 elections were "free."

Also, Hitler's emergency powers were not democratically obtained.

Yes, I am aware. I specifically did not say Hitler was elected. He manipulated the election to his advantage.

Hamas on the other hand were elected- and it wasn't as if Hamas hid their agenda.

58 wrenchwench  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:43:23pm

re: #40 yenta-fada

For example, I believe Chavez of Venezuela to be immoral. He has sold his own country out for the sake of grabbing more and more power on the world stage. He has turned a democracy into an almost thugocracy for the sake of his ego. His people no longer have freedom of speech and can have anything from their businesses to their lives sacrificed at the whim of their leadership. Their news stations have been obliterated, except for the State news. Their oil has been used to draw alliances with other Latin American nations, and the country has become a Hezbollah stronghold in the region. The people suffer an increasingly Cubanized way of life.

I met a Venezuelan two weeks ago whose stories expand and elaborate on what you said. He's hoping to become an American (by marrying my sister).

59 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:43:39pm

re: #49 researchok

Godwin. BTW, Hitler wasn't elected.

60 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:44:27pm

This whole episode is the base problem with "realist" foreign policy types. Every time someone said during the last 8 years we needed to return to a realist policy I wanted to slap someone.

61 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:44:45pm

re: #59 Olsonist

Godwin. BTW, Hitler wasn't elected.

Yes, I know. See my response above. he manipulated the system to his advantage.

62 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:45:14pm

re: #23 Reginald Perrin

Sorry about the downding but supporting state sponsored terrorism and the overthrow of a legitimately elected government are not things that reflect American values.

No, they're not. But said values were not my concern in this matter. Sadly, it is my considered opinion that the strategic resources and large size of Chile dictated that practical concerns outweigh moral ones. Pinochet was a monster, but in my opinion he was better for America than the alternative.
Sorry about the delay of my response. I'm getting ready to leave for an interview, so I needed to get dressed and shave.

63 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:45:33pm

re: #59 Olsonist

Godwin. BTW, Hitler wasn't elected.

Further, it doesn't change the truth about Allende.

64 Aceofwhat?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:45:38pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

good luck!

65 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:46:09pm

re: #31 researchok

Terrorists (and psycho ideologues) are like whackamoles- knock one down and another comes up.

South American politics at the time were a continental Disneyworld of dysfunction and corruption.

I wouldn't have used the past tense in that sentence.

66 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:46:44pm

re: #53 Gus 802

They drugged these people, flew them out over the Atlantic and dropped them in the ocean. Then they took their children and gave them over to Argentinian military families.

67 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:46:46pm

re: #55 HappyWarrior

If they had replaced Allende with someone who wasn't a mass murderer like Pinochet then I doubt the controversy would be as high as it is today.

Quite Concur.

68 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:47:51pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

Good luck with the interview, I'll keep my fingers crossed.

69 yenta-fada  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:48:22pm

re: #58 wrenchwench

We have been to Venezuela before, and it was a beautiful country very proud to be the longest running democracy in South America. It had a thriving middle class. That has disappeared mostly because of Chavez. A country without a middle class loses a democratic and entreprenurial spirit. Either you are for Chavez, or you lose everything.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:48:30pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

I'm going to get downdined a lot for this one: I think supporting Pinochet's coup was the correct decision. Allende was courting Cuban support and had pushed plans to "introduce socialism at once". He had to be considered hostile to our interests and we really could not afford Chile as a Soviet satellite. He had to go and his support base had to be destroyed.

I am withholding downdinging, although that is my first impulse, because I know you and have seen you examine and change your thought processes.

The U.S. chose to support a murderer, a torturer, and a fascist in Pinochet. We chose, as we always did in Latin America in those days, to choose the murderer over the Commie. A Communist who committed the crimes of Pinochet would be rightly condemned as a monster, and his crimes attributed to the innate inhumanity of Communism. Let's not let the Fascist off the hook.

We screwed up.

71 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:49:11pm

re: #62 Dark_Falcon

No, they're not. But said values were not my concern in this matter. Sadly, it is my considered opinion that the strategic resources and large size of Chile dictated that practical concerns outweigh moral ones. Pinochet was a monster, but in my opinion he was better for America than the alternative.
Sorry about the delay of my response. I'm getting ready to leave for an interview, so I needed to get dressed and shave.

Good luck with your interview. Thanks for at least acknowledging he was a monster of a man. I've seen some refuse to acknowledge that and justify the coup because he practiced free market economics. I won't downding you since you realize Pinochet was a bastard.

72 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:49:19pm

re: #66 Olsonist

They drugged these people, flew them out over the Atlantic and dropped them in the ocean. Then they took their children and gave them over to Argentinian military families.

And it was a part of Operation Condor.

Here is a gallery of but a few of the victims: Wall of Memory

Also a photo here:

Image: Que_digan_d%C3%B3nde_estan.jpg

73 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:49:31pm

re: #30 rwdflynavy

How many deaths was the USSR responsible for in their sphere of influence compared to the US in ours?

That is one jacked up mirror!

We don't actually know, do we, because unlike so much that belonged to the KGB, many CIA files are still classified.

75 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:51:25pm

re: #73 Cato the Elder

We don't actually know, do we, because unlike so much that belonged to the KGB, many CIA files are still classified.

Stalin is credited with about 20 Million. Do you think we are fairly close to that number?

I don't.

We certainly made mistakes in South and Central America but I don't think it is fair to say we were a mirror image of the Soviets.

76 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:51:48pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

I am withholding downdinging, although that is my first impulse, because I know you and have seen you examine and change your thought processes.

The U.S. chose to support a murderer, a torturer, and a fascist in Pinochet. We chose, as we always did in Latin America in those days, to choose the murderer over the Commie. A Communist who committed the crimes of Pinochet would be rightly condemned as a monster, and his crimes attributed to the innate inhumanity of Communism. Let's not let the Fascist off the hook.

We screwed up.

This underlines exactly what I've been trying to say but better put. We let our anti-Communism get in the way of being pro-Democracy in Chile I believe. As I said, if you replace Allende with someone who isn't a Fascist monster like Pinochet then I doubt this is as controversial as it is today.

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:53:41pm

re: #36 lostlakehiker

Moral considerations DO enter into it. But there are heavy weights in the scales on both sides. The rise to power of communism around the world has been attended by mass murder on a scale utterly dwarfing what tinpot south american dictators get up to.

I find it interesting that this argument (I choose this snippet as an example), seems to come out when we discuss men such as Pinochet, while realpolitik arguments against going into Iraq have been so often met (here) with sobs about Saddam's torture chambers.

78 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:53:42pm

re: #50 Cato the Elder

So, would a coup to bring down Obama's "socialist" régime and install an American Pinochet be justified under any circumstances?

I repeat the question.

79 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:54:11pm

re: #71 HappyWarrior

Good luck with your interview. Thanks for at least acknowledging he was a monster of a man. I've seen some refuse to acknowledge that and justify the coup because he practiced free market economics. I won't downding you since you realize Pinochet was a bastard.

Thank you. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone and I thank you all for being decent. I'll make sure to read this thread again when I get home this evening. Talk to you folks then.

80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:54:32pm

re: #76 HappyWarrior

our right wing fascist was better than their left wing communist. It was a part of our policy in S/Central america. My future father-in-law worked for Noriega and recalls how he was a useful tool for the U.S. for a while.

81 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:55:05pm

re: #75 rwdflynavy

Stalin is credited with about 20 Million. Do you think we are fairly close to that number?

I don't.

We certainly made mistakes in South and Central America but I don't think it is fair to say we were a mirror image of the Soviets.

I'm sorry, but in many ways we were. And those who felt our boots in their faces would agree.

82 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:55:59pm

re: #80 Dreggas

our right wing fascist was better than their left wing communist. It was a part of our policy in S/Central america. My future father-in-law worked for Noriega and recalls how he was a useful tool for the U.S. for a while.

It was the whole, "A sob but our sob" thing right which was influentially I believe applied to Somoza in Nicaragua.

83 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:56:56pm

re: #82 HappyWarrior

and Saddam Hussein, and the Shah and a bunch of others.

84 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:57:02pm

re: #81 Cato the Elder

I'm sorry, but in many ways we were. And those who felt our boots in their faces would agree.

Can you cite any sources that would prove any of this? Soviets are credited with some for killing upwards of 100 Million people.

85 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:57:21pm
86 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:57:37pm

re: #78 Cato the Elder

I repeat the question.

No

87 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:57:46pm

and to hear the tales from my future FIL of Noriega and the drug trade is a trip.

88 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:57:56pm

re: #77 SanFranciscoZionist

I find it interesting that this argument (I choose this snippet as an example), seems to come out when we discuss men such as Pinochet, while realpolitik arguments against going into Iraq have been so often met (here) with sobs about Saddam's torture chambers.

That's the same thing, only opposite, of what I pointed out earlier. People who want a return to a "realist" foreign policy tend to ignore what occurred during those decades.

89 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:58:19pm

re: #75 rwdflynavy

Stalin is credited with about 20 Million. Do you think we are fairly close to that number?

I don't.

We certainly made mistakes in South and Central America but I don't think it is fair to say we were a mirror image of the Soviets.

Cato said the KGB, not Stalin. There is no moral equivalence. The main cause of death during the Stalin regime was famine.

90 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:58:32pm

re: #85 SanFranciscoZionist

Soft on terror! He is! He is!

I think this is outrageous. Targeting an American citizen, who is presently in another country, targeting him for assassination. No way... you support this?

91 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:58:39pm

By the way, Allende was a great fan of Che Guevera.

You know, the guy who shot and killed hundreds of people (including women and children) by himself, in addition to the thousands killed in the name of the 'people'.

See this

Pinochet was a no saint- he was brutal, but making it seem as if Allende was anyone less brutal or had only noble intentions is simply a PC fantasy.

92 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:59:14pm

re: #84 rwdflynavy

Can you cite any sources that would prove any of this? Soviets are credited with some for killing upwards of 100 Million people.

No, that is not true. That figure applies to all communist regimes. The number is actually 94 million. The reference is the book "The Black Book of Communism."

93 HoosierHoops  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 12:59:35pm

re: #87 Dreggas

and to hear the tales from my future FIL of Noriega and the drug trade is a trip.

I recall reading some stuff about that at the time.. There were a lot of dirty hands and much more to the story than the MSM talked about

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:00:03pm

re: #89 Gus 802

Cato said the KGB, not Stalin. There is no moral equivalence. The main cause of death during the Stalin regime was famine.

Deliberate, mind you, but not part of the chess-playing of the Cold War.

95 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:00:18pm

re: #88 RogueOne

I'm a realist to the core. I think you're confusing realism with corporatism.

96 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:00:27pm

re: #38 Olsonist

Actually, Allende was elected. Pinochet was the dictator.re: #30 rwdflynavy

Translated into English: our enemy is worse than we are so clearly we aren't being bad enough.

Actually, my post was English and it stands on its own. Our enemy was worse than us.

97 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:01:27pm

re: #91 researchok

How many political opponents did Allende have killed?

How many people did he have tortured?

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:02:05pm

re: #91 researchok

By the way, Allende was a great fan of Che Guevera.

You know, the guy who shot and killed hundreds of people (including women and children) by himself, in addition to the thousands killed in the name of the 'people'.

See this

Pinochet was a no saint- he was brutal, but making it seem as if Allende was anyone less brutal or had only noble intentions is simply a PC fantasy.

My government didn't prop up Allende, now did they? Makes a difference.

You show me a list of people murdered by Guevara. How many people did ALLENDE kill?

How many people did Pinochet kill?

99 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:02:21pm

re: #93 HoosierHoops

he told me about walking through wearhouses full of cocaine bound for the U.S. and other destinations and how Noriega was well aware of it all and doing it, at the time, with our blessing. Of course then Noriega became no longer useful and we invaded which was another story altogether. My future FIL had no love for noriega and said he was an ass and a dictator and prone to kill opponents, he worked in the gov't cuz it was a job.

100 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:02:39pm

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

Deliberate, mind you, but not part of the chess-playing of the Cold War.

Right. I don't see the point about Stalin however. So Stalin killed 20 million of his people. That doesn't make the sponsorship of Operation Condor that killed 30,000 people in Argentina right or less morally significant.

101 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:02:44pm

re: #83 Dreggas

and Saddam Hussein, and the Shah and a bunch of others.

Yep. Honestly from the little I know of the subject, I really like the goals of the Alliance for Progress, seems like a sort of Latin American Marshall Plan from what I understand of it.

102 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:02:56pm

re: #92 Gus 802

No, that is not true. That figure applies to all communist regimes. The number is actually 94 million. The reference is the book "The Black Book of Communism."

Gus, See this. I believe you'll find it interesting.

103 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:04:07pm

re: #95 Olsonist

I'm a realist to the core. I think you're confusing realism with corporatism.

No, I don't think I am. The "realist" crowd has people like Baker, Brzezinski, and Kissinger as their role models. I may be understanding of their reasoning, just like DF opined earlier, but it doesn't make their actions much better than their soviet counter-parts. Turning a blind eye to abuse is just as morally vacant as being the abuser.

104 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:04:27pm

re: #102 researchok

Gus, See this. I believe you'll find it interesting.

OK, thanks. I've been to that site before. So the figure would be close to 100 million. Rummel states 110 million.

105 Gang of One  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:05:05pm

Hello everyone, been a long time ... too much going on and very little time to stop by. My sincerest appy-poly-logies for going so OT, but some time ago, Charles posted some pix by someone [maybe Charles himself] using some kind of digital multi-exposure or multi-F-Stop settings that made the pix look awesome. Can't remember when, where, who ... can anyone help me out? Would really be grateful.

Thanks, G-of-1

106 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:05:33pm

re: #100 Gus 802

Right. I don't see the point about Stalin however. So Stalin killed 20 million of his people. That doesn't make the sponsorship of Operation Condor that killed 30,000 people in Argentina right or less morally significant.

Cato said the US and Soviet Union were mirror images of each other with regard to how we operated in our spheres of influence. It wasn't limited to Operation Condor.

I just don't think the moral equivalence is appropriate.

107 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:05:35pm

Maybe this is alright with everyone, I don't know, but I really am interested in opinions...


re: #74 Walter L. Newton

The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen, the radical Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki

I think this is outrageous. Targeting an American citizen, who is presently in another country, targeting him for assassination. No way... anyone support this?

108 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:06:03pm

re: #84 rwdflynavy

Can you cite any sources that would prove any of this?

Prove any of what? That we were exactly like or exactly as bad as the Soviets? Get real.

That we treated Central and South America as our fiefdom and that the boots in the face we served up felt just as bad to the ones chowing down on them as did Russian leather to Czechs, Poles or Uzbeks? There is plenty of evidence for that, including lots of survivors, but from your tone here I doubt you'd credit any of it. Do your own googling.

Soviets are credited with some for killing upwards of 100 Million people.

And if we only killed one million, or ten, or 17.69331, what then?

109 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:06:09pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

My government didn't prop up Allende, now did they? Makes a difference.

You show me a list of people murdered by Guevara. How many people did ALLENDE kill?

How many people did Pinochet kill?

No, but there were those who wanted us- and our government- to support Allende. And Che. And Castro.

As for Che, start here.

110 avanti  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:06:29pm

O.T. watch your Netflix movies on your TV/big screen via the net using your Wii game console. Free disk at the link.

Instant movies..

112 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:08:26pm

re: #99 Dreggas

So Maxine Waters was right about the CIA being involved in the cocaine trade.

113 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:08:36pm

re: #106 rwdflynavy

Cato said the US and Soviet Union were mirror images of each other with regard to how we operated in our spheres of influence. It wasn't limited to Operation Condor.

I just don't think the moral equivalence is appropriate.

OK If that's the case then I don't think there should be an equivalence to any of the parties.

It's a bit like going to court for murder and then using a defense by saying "well, Son of Sam killed a lot more people."

114 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:08:53pm

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

Maybe this is alright with everyone, I don't know, but I really am interested in opinions...

I think this is outrageous. Targeting an American citizen, who is presently in another country, targeting him for assassination. No way... anyone support this?

I do, but you probably already knew that. If he were in VA or MI then there would be a problem but he's not so there isn't.

I'm headed home. BBIAB.

115 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:09:25pm

re: #110 avanti

O.T. watch your Netflix movies on your TV/big screen via the net using your Wii game console. Free disk at the link.

Instant movies..

I've been doing this on the Xbox 360 for a loo-o-ong time now :D

116 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:10:00pm

re: #108 Cato the Elder

Prove any of what? That we were exactly like or exactly as bad as the Soviets? Get real.

That we treated Central and South America as our fiefdom and that the boots in the face we served up felt just as bad to the ones chowing down on them as did Russian leather to Czechs, Poles or Uzbeks? There is plenty of evidence for that, including lots of survivors, but from your tone here I doubt you'd credit any of it. Do your own googling.

Soviets are credited with some for killing upwards of 100 Million people.


And if we only killed one million, or ten, or 17.69331, what then?

As I said, we made mistakes in South and Central America during the Cold War. I think we were and are a better country than the USSR ever was.

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:10:54pm

re: #116 rwdflynavy

As I said, we made mistakes in South and Central America during the Cold War. I think we were and are a better country than the USSR ever was.

Hey, we're better than Stalin! YEAH!

118 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:11:28pm

re: #50 Cato the Elder

Well if Obama lost his re-election bid, and tried to keep it by force despite losing to the Palin/Rove Republicans...

Just Kidding!

119 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:11:45pm

re: #114 RogueOne

I do, but you probably already knew that. If he were in VA or MI then there would be a problem but he's not so there isn't.

I'm headed home. BBIAB.

Well, I think it terrible that we would target an American for assassination. We have international police and civilian courts to take care of citizens like this.

Lots of hypocrisy, it seems to me.

120 shiplord kirel  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:11:48pm

re: #78 Cato the Elder

I repeat the question.

Ok, I'll be the devil's advocate here:

Suppose in some alternate world that the armed ACORN militia were real and strong enough to challenge the police and the judicial authority. Suppose further that this militia were put to work intimidating political opponents, destroying or stealing private property, and in general attempting to make the elected president a permanent Castro-style dictator. Suppose further that Congress and the Supreme Court intervened to stop this and the president ignored them.
This, according to many, is what was happening in Chile under Allende. There is no doubt at all that Allende was defying both the Supreme Court and the Chamber of Deputies in his enforcement of socialist economic measures, often by force of arms.
Chamber of Deputies Resolution, preceeding the coup.
There is also good evidence of Soviet involvement with Allende's extra-legal policies and no doubt at all of Cuban involvement.

121 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:11:56pm

re: #104 Gus 802

OK, thanks. I've been to that site before. So the figure would be close to 100 million. Rummel states 110 million.

Sad as it is to say, at that point the exact number isn't important.

Like the Holocaust numbers, whether it was 5.5 million or 6.5 million doesn't change the material reality of those times.

122 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:11:57pm

re: #3 Olsonist

Yeah pretty much.

123 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:12:32pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Ohio Tea Party Organizer And Father Of Part-Latino Son Threatens To Shoot Latino Immigrants

(not the Onion.)

First time I'd ever see someone blame their threats on the Bee Gees. What an assclown.

124 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:12:36pm

re: #77 SanFranciscoZionist

I find it interesting that this argument (I choose this snippet as an example), seems to come out when we discuss men such as Pinochet, while realpolitik arguments against going into Iraq have been so often met (here) with sobs about Saddam's torture chambers.

just logging backed in to ding ding ding.

125 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:12:45pm

re: #116 rwdflynavy

As I said, we made mistakes in South and Central America during the Cold War. I think we were and are a better country than the USSR ever was.

I agree with that.

126 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:13:22pm

re: #116 rwdflynavy

As I said, we made mistakes in South and Central America during the Cold War. I think we were and are a better country than the USSR ever was.

American or American-financed boot-leather kicking in your teeth doesn't taste like a "mistake". It tastes like boot-leather.

All I'm saying is that acknowledging and owning up to our sometimes ginormous "mistakes" should not be the taboo that it apparently is with some people, nor raise their hackles to the extent it does.

127 avanti  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:13:54pm

re: #115 WindUpBird

I've been doing this on the Xbox 360 for a loo-o-ong time now :D

Yea, I have 3 choices to do it now, but since my Blu ray player does Netflix, Pandora, Blockbuster and Youtube, I use it.

128 Fozzie Bear  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:14:39pm

The debate over how many this or that despot killed is a bit tu quoquey to my eyes, to use an oft-cited LGF phrase.

"lets stop bickering and arguing over who killed who..."

No seriously. Stalin could have killed eleventy billion people, it has no bearing on what we did post-stalin, imo. It's a form of hubris, imo, when the US engages in all kinds of manipulation of foreign powers, and expects anything other than chaos and resentment to ensue.

Pinochet was a disaster, and he is, in part, the fault of the US. We should own that, so we can learn from it. Shades of Iraq and Afghanistan come to mind.

129 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:14:55pm

re: #126 Cato the Elder

American or American-financed boot-leather kicking in your teeth doesn't taste like a "mistake". It tastes like boot-leather.

All I'm saying is that acknowledging and owning up to our sometimes ginormous "mistakes" should not be the taboo that it apparently is with some people, nor raise their hackles to the extent it does.

I have no problem admitting to the things we did wrong. I just dislike hearing that the US and USSR were moral equivalents during the Cold War because I think that is ridiculous.

If that wasn't your point with the "mirror image" comment then we don't disagree.

130 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:15:02pm

re: #116 rwdflynavy

In the eyes of our harshest critics, historic moral and pragmatic perfection is required, or we are as bad as our worst enemies on the world stage.

131 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:15:41pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

Hey, we're better than Stalin! YEAH!

HI FIVE!!!!

132 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:15:58pm

re: #130 Rightwingconspirator

In the eyes of our harshest critics, historic moral and pragmatic perfection is required, or we are as bad as our worst enemies on the world stage.

to our harshest critics, we will always be as bad as our worst enemies...

133 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:16:03pm

re: #22 wozzablog

America Fuck Yeah!

134 avanti  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:16:09pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Ohio Tea Party Organizer And Father Of Part-Latino Son Threatens To Shoot Latino Immigrants

(not the Onion.)

Big deal, the GOP has already lost the (insert racial/ethnic slur here) vote./

135 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:16:50pm

re: #132 rwdflynavy

and so it goes time and time again - all sides all historys/

136 Gang of One  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:17:08pm

re: #134 avanti

Big deal, the GOP has already lost the (Lizardoid/scaly bastard) vote./


//

137 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:17:30pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

Hey, we're better than Stalin! YEAH!

Makes me think of the "Friends" episode where Joey is trying to figure out a cool stage name.

Chandler recommends Joseph Stalin as a joke.

When Joey finds out the truth of Joseph Stalin he says to Chandler:

"You think you would have known something like that!!"

138 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:18:26pm

re: #135 wozzablog

and so it goes time and time again - all sides all historys/

"History is the autobiography of a Mad Man."

Dan Carlin

139 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:19:01pm

re: #137 rwdflynavy

Makes me think of the "Friends" episode where Joey is trying to figure out a cool stage name.

Chandler recommends Joseph Stalin as a joke.

When Joey finds out the truth of Joseph Stalin he says to Chandler:

"You think you would have known something like that!!"

Heh funny since Stalin was a fake name itself.

140 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:19:22pm

re: #134 avanti

Big deal, the GOP has already lost the (insert racial/ethnic slur here) vote./

The GOP has already lost the sane vote.

Wish I was kidding...

141 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:19:42pm

re: #103 RogueOne

I think Kissinger liked the image of being called a realist. It certainly showed in his Metternich thesis, A World Restored. But as a practical matter, he was a corporatist. His interests weren't American interests but rather political and corporate interests. Case in point.

Brezinski and Baker may be better models. Failures, but better models. Brezinski, the realist, tricked the Sovs into invading Afghanistan with long term disastrous consequences. BTW, Carter held our Olympic team out of Moscow on moral grounds. Meh. Baker for all the grooming and posturing as SOS really had nothing to show for himself.

142 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:20:18pm

re: #129 rwdflynavy

I have no problem admitting to the things we did wrong. I just dislike hearing that the US and USSR were moral equivalents during the Cold War because I think that is ridiculous.

If that wasn't your point with the "mirror image" comment then we don't disagree.

I was talking about what we did on the covert level, in fact. In keeping with the subject of this thread. For anyone to jump from that to me saying we were just alike in all or even most regards is a little - odd, shall we say?

In regard to our covert actions, I totally and absolutely stand by the "mirror image" statement. Go (re)read "The Spy Who Came In from the Cold" if you don't believe me.

143 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:20:49pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

I was talking about what we did on the covert level, in fact. In keeping with the subject of this thread. For anyone to jump from that to me saying we were just alike in all or even most regards is a little - odd, shall we say?

In regard to our covert actions, I totally and absolutely stand by the "mirror image" statement. Go (re)read "The Spy Who Came In from the Cold" if you don't believe me.

Did you just call me odd!!!!
//

144 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:21:50pm

re: #111 Killgore Trout

Ohio Tea Party Organizer And Father Of Part-Latino Son Threatens To Shoot Latino Immigrants

(not the Onion.)

Notice the NWO tagline on his tweets?

145 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:22:19pm

re: #143 rwdflynavy

Did you just call me odd!!!
//

I'm odd, you're scrod. Get used to it! ;^)

146 ryannon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:22:24pm

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

Maybe this is alright with everyone, I don't know, but I really am interested in opinions...

I think this is outrageous. Targeting an American citizen, who is presently in another country, targeting him for assassination. No way... anyone support this?

Why exactly are they picking on this poor guy? It wouldn't be anything like collaborating with the enemy in a war-zone, would it?

147 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:22:28pm

re: #144 Stanley Sea

Notice the NWO tagline on his tweets?

and he's probably not a Ministry fan...

148 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:22:35pm

Allende.
Hamas.
Ahmadinejad.
Chavez.
Hezbollah.
Castro.
All are examples of the futility of democracy in the absence of constitutional checks and balances including a bill of rights and an independent judiciary.

149 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:22:48pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

CIA contra death squads....................

150 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:24:32pm

re: #148 Spare O'Lake

Allende.
Hamas.
Ahmadinejad.
Chavez.
Hezbollah.
Castro.
All are examples of the futility of democracy in the absence of constitutional checks and balances including a bill of rights and an independent judiciary.

Castro was democratically elected?

151 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:24:48pm

re: #146 ryannon

Why exactly are they picking on this poor guy? It wouldn't be anything like collaborating with the enemy in a war-zone, would it?

Well, this thread is about covert operations and assassinations, and there is a lot of "we shouldn't have done this" but this order by the Obama administration doesn't even get a comment, an opinion, I'm a little strained to see the difference here.

It's another targeted assassination by the US government and I guess there's doesn't seem to be a problem? I have a problem with it.

152 Randall Gross  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:24:59pm

Things were very touchy back then, my dad was part of an international incident in one country that involved him being photographed with a rifle while guarding some crypto/commo gear that was destined for use on a high peak somewhere in the Andes by embassy staff.

The US troops had to surrender their weapons due to the snapshot, but the crypto and commo gear still made it to high places, and the embassy personnel hated the soldiers with orange scarves even more after that.

On the back and forth: I suspect that we have done some evil in our time and tacitly ignored some known evils (Rwanda?) and it's good to point those out so we don't repeat. At some point though you can go from "pointing out complicity" into what I call the Luap Norian "blowback" twilight zone where the US should never do anything period outside our borders ....

You have to judge each case on its own merits.

153 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:25:09pm

re: #116 rwdflynavy

As I said, we made mistakes in South and Central America during the Cold War. I think we were and are a better country than the USSR ever was.

We are of fucking course a better country than the Soviet Union and being a better country than the Soviet Union we should do better things such as defend rather than overthrow democracy.

154 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:25:23pm

re: #151 Walter L. Newton

I don't like it.

155 b_sharp  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:25:25pm

re: #96 rwdflynavy

Actually, my post was English and it stands on its own. Our enemy was worse than us.

That doesn't excuse what your country did though, does it?

156 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:25:38pm
157 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:26:30pm

re: #156 Walter L. Newton

see my 154.

158 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:28:16pm

re: #157 wozzablog

see my 154.

We crossed streams. Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any opinion on this from most of the Lizards. I guess if it's Obama, it's fine, if it's Kissinger or some other person, it's bad.

159 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:28:30pm

re: #150 HappyWarrior

Castro was democratically elected?

No but he has enjoyed much popular support from much of the Cuban people for all these many years.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

160 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:28:45pm

re: #148 Spare O'Lake

Saddam
The Shah
Ghadaffi (still)
Noriega
Pinochet
Somoza
Marcos

161 justaminute  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:30:08pm

re: #107 Walter L. Newton

Why don't they try him in absentia? I am not okay because it sets precedent.

162 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:30:22pm

re: #153 Olsonist

We are of fucking course a better country than the Soviet Union and being a better country than the Soviet Union we should do better things such as defend rather than overthrow democracy.

As I agreed several times. By all mean though, keep beating that horse!

163 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:30:23pm

re: #148 Spare O'Lake

Why is Allende on that list?

164 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:31:00pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

I don't know, i debated posse comitatas and a few other things here a couple of months back and some opinion was that "the ends justify the means" whatever the collateral damage to the constitution.

go figure.

165 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:31:23pm

re: #159 Spare O'Lake

Maybe they like him better than Fulgencio.

166 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:31:36pm

More on Allende:

Upon Stalin's death in 1953, Chilean Communists held a "Homage to Stalin" in Santiago's Baquedano theatre where Salvador Allende could hardly contain himself: "Stalin was a banner of creativity, of humanism and an edifying picture of peace and heroism!" he gushed while choking back the tears. "Everything he did, he did in service of the people. Our father Stalin has died but in remembering his example our affection for him will cause our arms to grow strong towards building a grand tomorrow-- to insure a future in memory of his grand example!" *

After assuming power in 1970 (with roughly the same percentage of votes that Hitler garnered in Germany in 1933), the Allende regime's true colors soon manifested. In January 1971, Allende's minister Carlos Altamirano boasted: "We're following the example of the Cuban Revolution and counting on the support of her militant internationalism....represented by Fidel Castro and Che Guevara. Armed conflict in continental terms remains as relevant today as ever!"

"Hear me loud and clear!" Salvador Allende himself boasted the following month. "We will employ revolutionary violence!"

This was more than an idle boast by Allende. Among the myriad unreported aspects of the Chilean coup were the dozens of "guerrilla" schools being set up throughout Chile by Soviet bloc agents shortly before that coup. Marxist death squads were also roaming Chile, murdering "bourgeois elements" with impunity or with the tacit support of the regime. When Salvador Allende visited Moscow in December 1972, his longest meetings was with Boris Ponomariev, the Kremlin's head of "Irregular Warfare" for the Western Hemisphere.

By 1973, 60 percent of Chile's arable land had been confiscated by the government, often with the aid of these death squads. Rolando Matus and Jacinto Huilipan were among the many farmers who protested Allende's "Agrarian Reform" and wound up kidnapped and murdered.

"In the final analysis only armed conflict will decide who is the victor!" added Allende's governmental ally, Oscar Guillermo Garreton. "Without the complete destruction of the bourgeois character of the state we cannot march on the path of Socialism! The class struggle always entails armed conflict. Understand me, the global strategy is always accomplished through arms!"

Read it all.

167 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:32:22pm

re: #161 justaminute

Why don't they try him in absentia? I am not okay because it sets precedent.

Why are "we" complaining in this thread about covert killings and operations, yet there appears to be no opinion about Obama ordering that it's open season on an American for assassination.

168 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:32:41pm

re: #162 rwdflynavy

So you do agree that overthrowing democracies is against American interests and values? Straight up question.

169 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:32:48pm

re: #166 researchok

That is not a credible source, dude.

170 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:33:04pm

re: #168 Olsonist

So you do agree that overthrowing democracies is against American interests and values? Straight up question.

Yes!

171 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:33:27pm

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

Why are "we" complaining in this thread about covert killings and operations, yet there appears to be no opinion about Obama ordering that it's open season on an American for assassination.

Maybe because in that case it's not covert?

172 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:33:45pm

re: #164 wozzablog

I don't know, i debated posse comitatas and a few other things here a couple of months back and some opinion was that "the ends justify the means" whatever the collateral damage to the constitution.

go figure.

Hypocrisy... runs among partisans.

173 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:33:57pm

re: #160 Olsonist

Saddam
The Shah
Ghadaffi (still)
Noriega
Pinochet
Somoza
Marcos

Castro hasn't murdered enough yet to make your list?

174 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:34:12pm

re: #171 Cato the Elder

Maybe because in that case it's not covert?

And that makes a difference? You happy with this decision by the administration?

175 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:34:41pm

re: #164 wozzablog

I don't know, i debated posse comitatas and a few other things here a couple of months back and some opinion was that "the ends justify the means" whatever the collateral damage to the constitution.

go figure.

Kinda like health insurance reform, the end justifies the means, constitution be damned...

176 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:34:48pm

re: #170 rwdflynavy

I'm sorry; I must have misread something further up. You've got my respect and my abject apology for misreading. Carry on, sir.

177 ryannon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:35:04pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

We crossed streams. Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any opinion on this from most of the Lizards. I guess if it's Obama, it's fine, if it's Kissinger or some other person, it's bad.

"The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen, the radical Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who is believed to have shifted from encouraging attacks on the United States to directly participating in them, intelligence and counterterrorism officials said Tuesday."

So along with a dedicated group of terrorists, I decide to declare war on the NYPD. We manage to kill some in ambushes and still others in suicide bombings of precinct houses. My photo is circulated by the NYPD and the instructions are to shoot to kill. Should I feel that my rights as an American citizen and a New Yorker are being violated?

178 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:35:18pm

re: #169 Obdicut

That is not a credible source, dude.

Why not? Are they in err?

There are other sources that reference the same material.

179 b_sharp  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:35:24pm

re: #119 Walter L. Newton

Well, I think it terrible that we would target an American for assassination. We have international police and civilian courts to take care of citizens like this.

Lots of hypocrisy, it seems to me.

I don't agree with it but I'm not an American so I shall refrain from becoming loud and obnoxious for a change.

180 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:35:35pm

re: #169 Obdicut

That is not a credible source, dude.

I know nothing about that source, but it looks like some serious research went into the article. In what way is it discredited?

181 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:35:56pm

re: #174 Walter L. Newton

And that makes a difference? You happy with this decision by the administration?

I am not displeased.

182 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:36:35pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Why is Allende on that list?

He was a democratically elected marxist who overrode the judiciary.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

183 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:36:36pm

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

Why are "we" complaining in this thread about covert killings and operations, yet there appears to be no opinion about Obama ordering that it's open season on an American for assassination.

Anwar al-Awlaki does not represent an internationally accepted nation state. He is also involved in terrorist activity that poses a direct threat to the citizens of the United States and the stability of this nation. He is a clear and present danger.

184 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:36:56pm

re: #181 Cato the Elder

I am not displeased.

Figures... partisan.

185 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:37:07pm

re: #178 researchok

Then provide those sources, please. That site is a David Horowitz special.

Come on.

186 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:37:17pm

re: #173 researchok

Castro hasn't murdered enough yet to make your list?

We didn't install/support Castro, so he doesn't fit the meme...

187 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:37:36pm

re: #184 Walter L. Newton

Figures... partisan.

I would not have been displeased if Bush had done it.

188 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:37:37pm

re: #183 Gus 802

Anwar al-Awlaki does not represent an internationally accepted nation state. He is also involved in terrorist activity that poses a direct threat to the citizens of the United States and the stability of this nation. He is a clear and present danger.

I don't care... he's an American citizen, we have international police and civil courts to take care of this.

189 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:38:04pm

re: #187 Cato the Elder

I would not have been displeased if Bush had done it.

Figures... death monger :)

190 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:38:19pm

re: #180 Cato the Elder

Horowitz is a self-important ex-Marxist blowhard with daddy issues. He has repeatedly shown himself to distort information on a regular basis. He has zero credibility.

191 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:38:24pm

re: #100 Gus 802

Right. I don't see the point about Stalin however. So Stalin killed 20 million of his people. That doesn't make the sponsorship of Operation Condor that killed 30,000 people in Argentina right or less morally significant.

Ten percent of those were Jews.

Two percent of Argentines were Jews.

192 rwdflynavy  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:38:46pm

bbiab

193 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:39:05pm

re: #189 Walter L. Newton

Figures... death monger :)

I would not be displeased to have the chance to do it myself.

194 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:39:42pm

re: #183 Gus 802

Anwar al-Awlaki does not represent an internationally accepted nation state. He is also involved in terrorist activity that poses a direct threat to the citizens of the United States and the stability of this nation. He is a clear and present danger.

So... this is ok with you too!

[Link: rawstory.com...]

195 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:41:03pm

re: #190 Obdicut

Horowitz is a self-important ex-Marxist blowhard with daddy issues. He has repeatedly shown himself to distort information on a regular basis. He has zero credibility.

I had no idea he had been discredited. Any material on that?

I know his stuff is controversial but I always believed him to be more than credible. To the best of my knowledge, he has never undermined his own credibility.

196 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:42:08pm

re: #175 rwdflynavy

Kinda like health insurance reform, the end justifies the means, constitution be damned...


from the O'neill institute @ Georgetown..

There are no Constitutional barriers for Congress to legislate a health insurance mandate as long as the mandate is properly designed and executed, as discussed below.

197 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:43:06pm

re: #194 Walter L. Newton

So... this is ok with you too!

[Link: rawstory.com...]

That's in conflict with the first article you linked:

It is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be approved for targeted killing, officials said. A former senior legal official in the administration of George W. Bush said he did not know of any American who was approved for targeted killing under the former president.

However to answer your question. Probably not. Allende was not a direct threat to the United States.

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:43:08pm

re: #109 researchok

No, but there were those who wanted us- and our government- to support Allende. And Che. And Castro.

As for Che, start here.

You're making some assumptions there. The first is that if I believe we screwed up in Chile, I can't possibly understand how dreadful Che was.

199 ryannon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:43:43pm

re: #194 Walter L. Newton

So... this is ok with you too!

[Link: rawstory.com...]

The guy is holed up somewhere in Yemen. Who do we send in to bring him back to justice, Wyatt Erp? Of course, an arrest and trial would be preferable, but how exactly would we go about doing this?

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:44:18pm
201 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:44:41pm

re: #195 researchok

I just linked to it.

Would you say falsely claiming that his materials were being used by the FBI damaged his credibility?

Under the banner of his David Horowitz Freedom Center, Horowitz sent out an email in August 2007 claiming:

One strong measurement of the effect we're having (and the need for what we do) came in the form of request from the head the FBI-California Highway Patrol Joint Counter-terrorism Task Force who called this week to ask if their group could use our flash video "What Every American Needs to Know About Jihad" as a training film. [3]

Historian and author Rick Perlstein tracked down a statement by the task force that denied Horowtiz's claim:

I can assure you the California Highway Patrol's head of the FBI-California Highway Patrol, Joint Terrorism Task Force did not request a copy of the video. While an employee of this Department did request a copy, the video was not used nor will it be used for training purposes. [4]


I think this quote says it all, really, after he was shown to have huge problems with his story about the professor failing a student over a "Was Bush a War Criminal" question.

"some of our facts were wrong; our point was right."

202 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:45:08pm

re: #197 Gus 802

However to answer your question. Probably not. Allende was not a direct threat to the United States.

Figures...

203 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:46:41pm

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

You're making some assumptions there. The first is that if I believe we screwed up in Chile, I can't possibly understand how dreadful Che was.

I'm with you. No question we screwed up in Chile. My point is that there no good choices at the time.

You might find this interesting.

204 justaminute  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:48:36pm

re: #199 ryannon

We try him in absentia. Make it public. If we order assignation of an American citizen who is abhorant were do we stop? This could be a very slippery slope.

205 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:48:50pm

re: #52 shiplord kirel

We really need to find out if warnings were sent directly to Argentina and Chile, which were very much the senior partners in Condor.
I'll go back to digging.

Come to think of it, a warning to Uruguay makes sense from a diplomatic angle too, because if they warned the real strong-arm guys directly they'd act like dictators, get all puffed up and bluster, and it would get nowhere. If the warning came from someone they knew was already playing ball with the US, it might make them ask, "what's going on here?" instead of provoking the ego response.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:48:56pm

re: #182 Spare O'Lake

He was a democratically elected marxist who overrode the judiciary.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

If he'd been a democratically elected non-Marxist who overrode the judiciary, he'd probably still be power.

207 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:49:41pm

re: #201 Obdicut

I just linked to it.

Would you say falsely claiming that his materials were being used by the FBI damaged his credibility?

Under the banner of his David Horowitz Freedom Center, Horowitz sent out an email in August 2007 claiming:

Yes, that's been beat to death.

He was given the information by a person he believed to be a credible source. He addressed the error and apologized. As far as I know, there are zero other instances of his work ever being questionable.

208 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:50:08pm

re: #203 researchok

... My point is that there no good choices at the time. ...

Trade? It worked for China. Nixon opened up the door to China and a little bit of capitalism became a little more and a little more. Some smart dude called it the Invisible Hand.

209 Gang of One  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:50:11pm

re: #201 Obdicut

"some of our facts were wrong; our point was right."

Fake but accurate?

210 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:51:07pm

re: #207 researchok

What about the other one I included in the same damn post, dude?

211 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:51:31pm

re: #185 Obdicut

Then provide those sources, please. That site is a David Horowitz special.

Come on.

The DTN site overstates the case against Allende but the fundamental facts about the lead-up to the coup are not in doubt. The wikipedia articles I cited are well-sourced. Note especially the Cuban packages scandal, which occurred well before the coup.
Most of the bloodshed associated with the Pinochet regime occurred well after the coup. This aftermath is far less excusable than the coup itself, in my frankly well-informed opinion.

Pinochet had a good opportunity to restore democracy and the rule of law pretty quickly after Allende's removal. The Chamber of Deputies, the courts, and the traditional political parties were all intact. Further, Chile had not had a military coup since the 19th century and this, too, would have simplified a return to democracy, with the courts sorting out the legal aspects just as they do here.
Instead, though, Pinochet and his henchmen dissolved congress, arrestd and imprisoned the opposition, turned the supreme court into a kangaroo court, and set up an actual fascist style dicatorship. The Wehrmacht style uniforms of his troops were a perfect symbol for this.

The Nixon administration was fully compliant and supportive of this, and (on Kissinger's advice) Ford continued that policy. The Condor document that was the original subject of this thread was issued while Ford was president, in fact.

212 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:52:13pm

re: #209 Gang of One

Fake but accurate?

A lie that gets to the essential truth.

213 ryannon  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:52:31pm

re: #204 justaminute

We try him in absentia. Make it public. If we order assignation of an American citizen who is abhorant were do we stop? This could be a very slippery slope.

I'm not sure that 'abhorrent' is the right word for him. From Walter's link:

“The danger Awlaki poses to this country is no longer confined to words,” said an American official, who like other current and former officials interviewed for this article spoke of the classified counterterrorism measures on the condition of anonymity. “He’s gotten involved in plots.”

The official added: “The United States works, exactly as the American people expect, to overcome threats to their security, and this individual — through his own actions — has become one. Awlaki knows what he’s done, and he knows he won’t be met with handshakes and flowers. None of this should surprise anyone.”

As a general principle, international law permits the use of lethal force against individuals and groups that pose an imminent threat to a country, and officials said that was the standard used in adding names to the list of targets. In addition, Congress approved the use of military force against Al Qaeda after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. People on the target list are considered to be military enemies of the United States and therefore not subject to the ban on political assassination first approved by President Gerald R. Ford.

Both the C.I.A. and the military maintain lists of terrorists linked to Al Qaeda and its affiliates who are approved for capture or killing, former officials said. But because Mr. Awlaki is an American, his inclusion on those lists had to be approved by the National Security Council, the officials said.

At a panel discussion in Washington on Tuesday, Representative Jane Harman, Democrat of California and chairwoman of a House subcommittee on homeland security, called Mr. Awlaki “probably the person, the terrorist, who would be terrorist No. 1 in terms of threat against us.”

214 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:52:44pm

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

You're making some assumptions there. The first is that if I believe we screwed up in Chile, I can't possibly understand how dreadful Che was.

In terms of the Cold War, overthrowing Allende may have been necessary.

Whether what followed under Pinochet was morally justifiable is the real question.

Wiki:

Almost immediately after the military's seizure of power, the junta banned all the leftist parties that had constituted Allende's UP coalition.[31] All other parties were placed in "indefinite recess," and were later banned outright. The government's violence was directed not only against dissidents, but also against their families and other civilians.[31]

The Rettig Report concluded 2,279 persons who disappeared during the military government were killed for political reasons or as a result of political violence, and approximately 31,947 tortured according to the later Valech Report, while 1,312 were exiled. The latter were chased all over the world by the intelligence agencies. In Latin America, this was made in the frame of Operation Condor, a cooperation plan between the various intelligence agencies of South American countries, assisted by a United States CIA communication base in Panama. Pinochet believed these operations were necessary in order to "save the country from communism".[32]

Some political scientists have ascribed the relative bloodiness of the coup to the stability of the existing democratic system, which required extreme action to overturn. Some of the most famous cases of human rights violation occurred during the early period: in October 1973, at least 70 people were killed throughout the country by the Caravan of Death. Charles Horman, a US journalist, "disappeared", as did Víctor Olea Alegría, a member of the Socialist Party, and many others, in 1973.

Furthermore, many other important officials of Allende's government were tracked down by the DINA in the frame of Operation Condor. Thus, General Carlos Prats, Pinochet's predecessor and army commander under Allende, who had resigned rather than support the moves against Allende's government, was assassinated in Buenos Aires, Argentina, in 1974. A year later, the murder of 119 opponents abroad was disguised as an internal conflict, the DINA setting up a propaganda campaign to accredit this thesis (Operation Colombo), campaign that received diffusion by the leading newspaper in Chile, El Mercurio.

Other victims of Condor included, among hundreds of less famous persons, Juan José Torres, the former President of Bolivia, assassinated in Buenos Aires on 2 June 1976; Carmelo Soria, a UN diplomat working for the CEPAL, assassinated in July 1976; Orlando Letelier, a former Chilean ambassador to the United States and minister in Allende's cabinet, assassinated after his release from internment and exile in Washington, D.C. by a car bomb on 21 September 1976. This led to strained relations with the US and to the extradition of Michael Townley, a US citizen who worked for the DINA and had organized Letelier's assassination. Other targeted victims, who escaped assassination, included Christian-Democrat Bernardo Leighton, who escaped an assassination attempt in Rome in 1975 by the Italian terrorist Stefano delle Chiaie; Carlos Altamirano, the leader of the Chilean Socialist Party, targeted for murder in 1975 by Pinochet, along with Volodia Teitelboim, member of the Communist Party; Pascal Allende, the nephew of Salvador Allende and president of the MIR, who escaped an assassination attempt in Costa Rica in March 1976; US Congressman Edward Koch, who became aware in 2001 of relations between death threats and his denunciation of Operation Condor, etc. Furthermore, according to current investigations, Eduardo Frei Montalva, the Christian Democrat President of Chile from 1964 to 1970, may have been poisoned in 1982 by toxin produced by DINA biochemist Eugenio Berrios.[33]

215 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:53:16pm

re: #208 Olsonist

Trade? It worked for China. Nixon opened up the door to China and a little bit of capitalism became a little more and a little more. Some smart dude called it the Invisible Hand.

Trade worked for China? We (successive Dem and GOP administrations) capitulated for the almighty buck with disastrous results

Human rights isn't even on our radar anymore.

216 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:53:45pm

re: #207 researchok

Horowitz has form. he's had to twist himself into pretzel like proportions on more than one occasion to justify something thats come out in his name.

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

217 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:54:34pm

re: #211 Shiplord Kirel

I know that Allende wasn't purty and saintly, and I haven't said a word in his defense. I'm just saying if you want to hit out at him, don't use an ex-Marxist like Horowitz who clearly has some freaking issues going on.

I'm not saying Allende was a good guy, or deserved to stay in power. I'm saying that we supported Pinochet past the coup, while he was killing his political opponents. I don't think we should ever support a military overthrow, either, but that's almost beside the point.

We supported Pinochet, and many others like him, when they were doing unspeakable things.

Or in other words, I agree completely with:

Most of the bloodshed associated with the Pinochet regime occurred well after the coup. This aftermath is far less excusable than the coup itself, in my frankly well-informed opinion.

Though my opinion is less well-informed.

218 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:54:56pm

re: #202 Walter L. Newton

Figures...

Well, I just can't see how one can equate the targeted killing of one single Anwar al-Awlaki who is actively engaged in terrorist war against American citizens with the systematic assassination of the democratically elected Salvador Allende followed up with a sponsored coup that placed Pinochet in power. This along with the corollary of state sponsored campaigns of terror against Latin and South American Citizens not only in Chile but in Argentina and other nations within that sphere.

219 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:55:36pm

re: #215 researchok

Now that I can agree with-- but trade still could have been the answer. We could have-- and could be-- getting more concessions out of other countries in terms of human rights and workers' rights. But we don't want to, because that would hurt our corporations bottom lines.

220 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:56:54pm

re: #215 researchok

Odd how you're defending the overthrow of (several) democracies and you're complaining about the (massively improved) human rights record of China. They have (censored) Internet now; they had the Cultural Revolution then.

221 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:57:22pm

re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist

If he'd been a democratically elected non-Marxist who overrode the judiciary, he'd probably still be power.

I believe that is correct, but besides my point. In order to qualify for international legitimacy it should not be sufficient for a regime simply to enjoy popular support. It should also be necessary for the government's powers to be limited by a constitutionally protected bill of rights and an independent judiciary. All 3 are necessary, otherwise you have tyranny by the majority and even worse, the ability of the party in power to cement its position by extrajudicial means.

222 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:57:33pm

re: #214 Cato the Elder

This is exactly what bothers me. It's not so much that we overthrew Allende but that we replaced him with a dictator. If Allende had been an anti-Communist doing the same things that made us overthrow him we wouldn't have even overthrown him and that is what bugs me about the whole thing is the hypocrisy and putting in a guy like Pinochet. No telling what Allende would have been like if he had been in power as long as Pinochet but there to me is no justification for putting and keeping Pinochet in there as long as it was.

223 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:58:15pm

re: #219 Obdicut

Colombia's current government is dissapearing union leaders and workers rights advocates to nary a peep from the state department.

224 prairiefire  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:58:26pm

re: #6 Obdicut

Dr. Kissinger should have accepted his Noble prize in a soccer stadium in Chile.

225 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:59:23pm

re: #224 prairiefire

Dr. Kissinger should have accepted his Noble prize in a soccer stadium in Chile.

I don't remember who said it - but satire died the day Kissinger won the peace prize.

226 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 1:59:35pm

re: #210 Obdicut

What about the other one I included in the same damn post, dude?

Wasn't that part of the same issue?re: #216 wozzablog

Horowitz has form. he's had to twist himself into pretzel like proportions on more than one occasion to justify something thats come out in his name.

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

Horowitz has addressed his critics.

In an article self-published on his FrontPageMag website, January 25, 2008, David Horowitz responded to what he claimed were outrageous and specious personal criticisms from the "progressive left", asserting that this identified political group uses biased tactics for attack, while he claimed his own moral and rhetorical superiority when arguing against them. Horowitz wrote that the progressive left's modus operandi when attacking himself, and conservatives in general were: "misrepresentation of facts, distortion of motives and general acts of character assassination are the preferred modes of progressive discourse, as any conservative who has acquired a public persona can attest." He further stated that, " raw material for this verbal malice is stored on data sites", singling out the following websites as the primary repositories: SourceWatch, Media Matters for America and Media Transparency, and People for the American Way's, Right Wing Watch

Further, Media Matters (like Frontpage) has a political agenda.

At this point, it's a 'he said, she said'.

227 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:00:07pm

re: #225 wozzablog

I don't remember who said it - but satire died the day Kissinger won the peace prize.

Tom Lerner.

228 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:00:20pm

re: #219 Obdicut

Now that I can agree with-- but trade still could have been the answer. We could have-- and could be-- getting more concessions out of other countries in terms of human rights and workers' rights. But we don't want to, because that would hurt our corporations bottom lines.

ABSOLUTELY!

229 justaminute  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:00:31pm

re: #213 ryannon

Maybe I didn't pick the right adjective because he deserves many. I just don't think we should bypass the courts. The precedent will be set. Bringing him to trial will not be hard, after all we have a great many things on him. Try him. He will be convicted. I hated Timothy McVeigh and he killed many of my friends and I would have like to just shoot him, but he got a trial. I think every American citizen deserves a trail.

230 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:00:46pm

re: #226 researchok

At this point, it's a 'he said, she said'.


It really really isn't.

Horowitz admitted to not reading stuff that went into his own book - and delegating it to his own agenda driven students.

231 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:02:34pm

re: #220 Olsonist

Odd how you're defending the overthrow of (several) democracies and you're complaining about the (massively improved) human rights record of China. They have (censored) Internet now; they had the Cultural Revolution then.

On what planet was Chile a democracy?

As to China, my remarks were observational.

232 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:03:05pm

re: #226 researchok

Wasn't that part of the same issue?

No, it wasn't. Completely different incident.

Horowitz may say reasonable things from time to time on some subjects, I don't know; as an anti-leftist, he's an extremist who should not be given any credibility. His book about liberal academics is rightly called out by Media Matters for how he misrepresented it-- it's McCarthy-esque, while purporting to be in favor of academic freedom.

233 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:03:55pm

re: #230 wozzablog

Ebetty, care to provide proof that what wozzablog said is incorrect?

234 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:04:08pm

re: #222 HappyWarrior

Yeah, but you cannot overthrow a democrat with a democrat. It just doesn't work that way. You can install a satrap (Karzai) or a straight up dictator (Allende) but you can't install a democrat.

235 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:04:16pm

re: #230 wozzablog

Ebetty, many thanks

;-)

236 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:04:26pm

re: #229 justaminute

Maybe I didn't pick the right adjective because he deserves many. I just don't think we should bypass the courts. The precedent will be set. Bringing him to trial will not be hard, after all we have a great many things on him. Try him. He will be convicted. I hated Timothy McVeigh and he killed many of my friends and I would have like to just shoot him, but he got a trial. I think every American citizen deserves a trail.

This order allowing the assassination of an American citizen is a continuation of a Bush/Cheney policy. When it was first discovered by the left, all hell broke loose. You can find article after article about this policy and read the comments.

But now, when Obama uses the same policy for the exact same reasons Bush/Cheney developed to policy, it's all cookie and milk.

I can smell the hypocrisy from here.

237 prairiefire  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:05:26pm

re: #224 prairiefire

Or a rice field in cambodia.

238 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:06:20pm

re: #230 wozzablog

It really really isn't.

Horowitz admitted to not reading stuff that went into his own book - and delegating it to his own agenda driven students.

Where then are the plethora of examples of Horowitz' intellectual errors?

You need a lot more than a single example of deliberate or obtuse error to invalidate the Horowitz work- or anyone else fro that matter.

That list goes on forever.

239 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:06:23pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

This order allowing the assassination of an American citizen is a continuation of a Bush/Cheney policy. When it was first discovered by the left, all hell broke loose. You can find article after article about this policy and read the comments.

But now, when Obama uses the same policy for the exact same reasons Bush/Cheney developed to policy, it's all cookie and milk.

I can smell the hypocrisy from here.


the medium far left and far far left of the democratic party never accepted Obama as one of their own, i don't know how suprised they will be - it's just another Obama continuation of a Bush policy.

240 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:06:34pm

re: #231 researchok

On this planet, Earth. You should check the election results.

241 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:06:35pm

re: #225 wozzablog

I don't remember who said it - but satire died the day Kissinger won the peace prize.

And was resurrected the day Jimmy Carter got his.

242 HappyWarrior  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:06:53pm

re: #234 Olsonist

Yeah, but you cannot overthrow a democrat with a democrat. It just doesn't work that way. You can install a satrap (Karzai) or a straight up dictator (Allende) but you can't install a democrat.

True this. It's tragic what happened in Chile arguably and I believe Pinochet's government either protected or did nothing about a cult that molested children there too headed by some former Nazi kook.

243 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:07:00pm

re: #238 researchok

Dude, more than a single error has already been provided to you.

244 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:08:10pm

re: #238 researchok

I only gave one - there are many many more, and in my book not reading your own damn book before it's released puts you on a par with caribou barbie in my book.

The media matters piece gives a list longer than my arm just on his Professors book alone.

He's an albatros around the neck of your arguent.

245 justaminute  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:08:42pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

Yes, it makes me fear for our future. I don't think our country understands the blow back that we will have in the future. Thanks for understanding.

246 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:09:06pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

This order allowing the assassination of an American citizen is a continuation of a Bush/Cheney policy. When it was first discovered by the left, all hell broke loose. You can find article after article about this policy and read the comments.

But now, when Obama uses the same policy for the exact same reasons Bush/Cheney developed to policy, it's all cookie and milk.

I can smell the hypocrisy from here.

Yep. They were against it before they were for it.

247 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:09:09pm

re: #244 wozzablog

arguent

A silver-based unguent?

248 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:10:28pm

Olsonist, why don't you just change your fucking nick to Moral Absolutist, you twerp?

249 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:11:23pm

re: #232 Obdicut

No, it wasn't. Completely different incident.

Horowitz may say reasonable things from time to time on some subjects, I don't know; as an anti-leftist, he's an extremist who should not be given any credibility. His book about liberal academics is rightly called out by Media Matters for how he misrepresented it-- it's McCarthy-esque, while purporting to be in favor of academic freedom.

I can agree that you may find his ideas objectionable- there are things he says I don't agree with either. But to say, "he's an extremist who should not be given any credibility" is absurd. I can think of 'extremists' on the other side who are far more egregious offenders than Horowitz!

It's one thing to argue Horowitz ideas. It's a whole other thing to say his facts are wrong when in fact they just don't like his conclusions.

As I said, very little of his work can be deemed not credible.

250 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:11:53pm

re: #249 researchok

Whatever, dude. You're refusing to look at it.

Seeya.

251 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:12:51pm

re: #247 Obdicut

A silver-based unguent?

why, yes, yes it is.

252 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:14:18pm

re: #240 Olsonist

On this planet, Earth. You should check the election results.

Uh, elections don't denote democratic governments or institutions.

See Hamas, Chavez, Hizbollah, a good part of South America ad infinitum.

PoliSci 101

253 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:14:54pm

re: #247 Obdicut

A silver-based unguent?

I prefer silver-based argument.

You pay me silver, I make your argument for you.

254 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:15:24pm

re: #249 researchok

If you read the link or bothered to look into any of the controversys he has not apologised for - you would (hopefully) change your tune.

255 Cato the Elder  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:17:30pm

re: #253 Cato the Elder

I prefer silver-based argument.

You pay me silver, I make your argument for you.

I'll even make it argent, if you pay me enough silver.

256 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:22:08pm

re: #249 researchok

I can agree that you may find his ideas objectionable- there are things he says I don't agree with either. But to say, "he's an extremist who should not be given any credibility" is absurd. I can think of 'extremists' on the other side who are far more egregious offenders than Horowitz!

It's one thing to argue Horowitz ideas. It's a whole other thing to say his facts are wrong when in fact they just don't like his conclusions.

As I said, very little of his work can be deemed not credible.

Is he related to Minnie Ha Ha Horowitz?

257 RogueOne  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:22:13pm

re: #225 wozzablog

I don't remember who said it - but satire died the day Kissinger won the peace prize.

It was reborn the day Obama won his.

258 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:22:54pm

re: #254 wozzablog

If you read the link or bothered to look into any of the controversys he has not apologised for - you would (hopefully) change your tune.

I will check it out. If you are correct, I will apologize of course.

That said, to my knowledge his research is credible. I did post a link up thread to a site other than his that essentially says the same thing about Allende.

See this Economist article as well.

259 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:28:21pm

re: #257 RogueOne

I'm a huge Obama fan but probably even he was embarrassed about that. He was awarded the Nobel for not being W.

260 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:29:36pm

re: #258 researchok

This does not mean that Chile will become another Brazil; for one thing, it is probably a less violent place even now, and for another, its soldiers have a rather different conception of their role from the soldiers behind Senhor Campos.

The above quote is from the Economist link you posted, it's obvious with 20/20 hindsight that they certainly didn't get that part right.

261 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:30:01pm

re: #258 researchok

I have the highest regard for the economist on the whole and
I generally agree with their content - but that's a "leader" piece, and i disagree with their assertion that the USA had nothing to do with Pinochet after the coup.

Also worth pointing out the economist is a center right publication - and almost universally opinions on the issue of Chile - as facts are often murky - go with political prejudice left or right.

the argument i was engaging above was that the Pinochet takeover and subsequent support from the USA was wrongheaded - mass killings and disapearences are not *better* because they are done by a favored side.

262 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:30:48pm

Trials Of Henry Kissinger

Part contemporary investigation and part historical inquiry, documentary follows the quest of one journalist in search of justice. The film focuses on Christopher Hitchens' charges against Henry Kissinger as a war criminal - allegations documented in Hitchens' book of the same title - based on his role in countries such as Cambodia, Chile, and Indonesia. Kissinger's story raises profound questions about American foreign policy and highlights a new era of human rights. Increasing evidence about one man's role in a long history of human rights abuses leads to a critical examination of American diplomacy through the lens of international standards of justice.

I haven't watched this yet. No doubt this is not a film that will please everyone.

263 b_sharp  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:31:04pm

re: #238 researchok

Where then are the plethora of examples of Horowitz' intellectual errors?

You need a lot more than a single example of deliberate or obtuse error to invalidate the Horowitz work- or anyone else fro that matter.

That list goes on forever.

After reading some of the sites Obdi linked to and a few more, it looks to me that Horowitz is the Plimer of History.

Evidence and accuracy is secondary to the political message.

And no, sloppy scholarship does not need deliberate or obtuse errors, it just needs obvious and uncorrected errors to invalidate the work.

I suspect, as an educated guess, that not one of those 101 worst professors Horowitz describes would accept the excuse Horowitz claimed, that all the errors were because of the hirelings, from any of their students, right or left leaning.

His answer to the reviews of his work is nothing but - 'they are all so mean to me' - even though his work is nothing more than a collection of personal attacks. Even his piece on Che Guevara was extremely short on fact and citation but long on rhetoric and appeals to emotion.

264 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:33:38pm

re: #258 researchok

Check into the "slavery debate" too

from source watch.........


Slavery "Debate"

David Horowitz’ book Uncivil Wars: The Controversy Over Reparations for Slavery (Encounter Books, 2002) caused a stir when it was first published. The contetns of this book were thoroughly rebutted in 2008 by Paul Anthony Dottin, in his article "The Hydra of Horowitzian History: The Mobilization of Scholarship against Black Reparations," Du Bois Review,

265 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:34:17pm

re: #263 b_sharp

Bingo my friend.

266 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:34:31pm

re: #261 wozzablog

I have the highest regard for the economist on the whole and
I generally agree with their content - but that's a "leader" piece, and i disagree with their assertion that the USA had nothing to do with Pinochet after the coup.

Also worth pointing out the economist is a center right publication - and almost universally opinions on the issue of Chile - as facts are often murky - go with political prejudice left or right.

the argument i was engaging above was that the Pinochet takeover and subsequent support from the USA was wrongheaded - mass killings and disapearences are not *better* because they are done by a favored side.

Good post.

I've said all along I agree that the Pinochet takeover was an disaster. My point is that Allende wasn't the benign leader he was made out to be post facto.

Pinochet was a horror show, to be sure, but Allende had set up the institutions he used. Given the chance, there is no doubt he would have been the same killer as Pinochet.

267 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:35:50pm

re: #263 b_sharp

After reading some of the sites Obdi linked to and a few more, it looks to me that Horowitz is the Plimer of History.

Evidence and accuracy is secondary to the political message.

And no, sloppy scholarship does not need deliberate or obtuse errors, it just needs obvious and uncorrected errors to invalidate the work.

I suspect, as an educated guess, that not one of those 101 worst professors Horowitz describes would accept the excuse Horowitz claimed, that all the errors were because of the hirelings, from any of their students, right or left leaning.

His answer to the reviews of his work is nothing but - 'they are all so mean to me' - even though his work is nothing more than a collection of personal attacks. Even his piece on Che Guevara was extremely short on fact and citation but long on rhetoric and appeals to emotion.

Please cite other examples of material errors.

Also, are you willing to extend your nullification of anyone who has committed similar errors?

268 b_sharp  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:36:00pm

re: #249 researchok

I can agree that you may find his ideas objectionable- there are things he says I don't agree with either. But to say, "he's an extremist who should not be given any credibility" is absurd. I can think of 'extremists' on the other side who are far more egregious offenders than Horowitz!

It's one thing to argue Horowitz ideas. It's a whole other thing to say his facts are wrong when in fact they just don't like his conclusions.

As I said, very little of his work can be deemed not credible.

Wrong facts are wrong facts. Only through the unfair toss of a coin will those wrong facts lead to a correct conclusion.

From what I can see Horowitz isn't on speaking terms with facts, but he is good at polemics.

269 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:36:33pm

re: #267 researchok

Errors pertaining to Chile and Allende in particular.

270 Gus  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:36:42pm

Back later. Hold the fort! ;)

271 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:37:13pm

re: #266 researchok

Fair do's

272 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:37:26pm

re: #268 b_sharp

Wrong facts are wrong facts. Only through the unfair toss of a coin will those wrong facts lead to a correct conclusion.

From what I can see Horowitz isn't on speaking terms with facts, but he is good at polemics.

What are the wrong facts on his article about Allende and Chile?

Simply asserting facts are wrong does not make that true.

273 b_sharp  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:40:52pm

re: #265 wozzablog

Bingo my friend.

Thanks, but I had to shoot Bingo, he was rabid. Or was that old yeller.

Too many dogs, not enough pu... Oops.

274 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:41:33pm

re: #264 wozzablog

Check into the "slavery debate" too

from source watch...

I actually read that. There is a difference. They disagree on the opinions and conclusions (and in fact, I'm less sympathetic to Horowitz in the matter).

275 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:44:38pm

re:researchok
#266

Allende had set up the institutions he used. Given the chance, there is no doubt he would have been the same killer as Pinochet.

What proof can you offer that supports your assertion that Allende would have become a murderous dictator on the scale of Pinochet?

276 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:46:49pm

re: #272 researchok

... Simply asserting facts are wrong does not make that true.

Once someone loses credibility, it's pretty much gone. You'll note that Horowitz doesn't get cited the way Hitchens, Hersch, Bloom, ... do. As soon as you cited Horowitz, you were instantly defending him. I don't agree with Hitchens about the Iraq War but I have to take what he writes seriously. I didn't agree with Bloom about his critique of American education but he had his points.

Horowitz is just a hack, a Glenn Beck for a slightly earlier generation.

277 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:49:34pm

re: #275 Reginald Perrin

re:researchok
#266

What proof can you offer that supports your assertion that Allende would have become a murderous dictator on the scale of Pinochet?

See this (Economist)

See this, too.

See this.

278 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:50:55pm

re: #276 Olsonist

Horowitz' standards of fact checking across the board seem to be little short of shoddy. He has a tendency to leap before he looks, and frequently lands on his face in concrete as a result.

He hears about someone defaming a conservative - or the potential for any new conservative cause'celeb and he tries to create the bandwagon.

279 b_sharp  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:52:04pm

re: #272 researchok

What are the wrong facts on his article about Allende and Chile?

Simply asserting facts are wrong does not make that true.

You are quite right, simply asserting facts says nothing. Horowitz may be correct about Allende and Chile, but based on his scholarship in other areas, I would not assume his work was any less shoddy so I would be careful to look for other sources of information. He obviously has an axe to grind, and grind it he does. That makes all of his work suspect. If you have other sources of information, sources that don't just link back to Horowitz but are truly independent, that corroborate his work, then and only then would I bother to use him as a source, and only for that one subject.

Unfair as it may seem, having a reputation as a poor scholar takes a lot of work to overcome, if it ever does, while having a reputation of good scholarship takes a lot of errors to screw up.

280 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:52:14pm

re: #276 Olsonist

Once someone loses credibility, it's pretty much gone. You'll note that Horowitz doesn't get cited the way Hitchens, Hersch, Bloom, ... do. As soon as you cited Horowitz, you were instantly defending him. I don't agree with Hitchens about the Iraq War but I have to take what he writes seriously. I didn't agree with Bloom about his critique of American education but he had his points.

Horowitz is just a hack, a Glenn Beck for a slightly earlier generation.

Again, you are stating an opinion.

Where in that article about Allende is Horowitz wrong? You may not like his conclusions, but that doesn't make him less credible.

I can cite legions of error filled articles by progressives- does that nullify them as well?

281 b_sharp  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:53:09pm

re: #276 Olsonist

Once someone loses credibility, it's pretty much gone. You'll note that Horowitz doesn't get cited the way Hitchens, Hersch, Bloom, ... do. As soon as you cited Horowitz, you were instantly defending him. I don't agree with Hitchens about the Iraq War but I have to take what he writes seriously. I didn't agree with Bloom about his critique of American education but he had his points.

Horowitz is just a hack, a Glenn Beck for a slightly earlier generation.

You said that well, better than I could.

282 b_sharp  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:55:36pm

re: #280 researchok

[snip]

I can cite legions of error filled articles by progressives- does that nullify them as well?

I don't know. Throw me a couple of links.
If their scholarship sucks, then I would have to say yes.

283 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:56:00pm

re: #279 b_sharp

You are quite right, simply asserting facts says nothing. Horowitz may be correct about Allende and Chile, but based on his scholarship in other areas, I would not assume his work was any less shoddy so I would be careful to look for other sources of information. He obviously has an axe to grind, and grind it he does. That makes all of his work suspect. If you have other sources of information, sources that don't just link back to Horowitz but are truly independent, that corroborate his work, then and only then would I bother to use him as a source, and only for that one subject.

Unfair as it may seem, having a reputation as a poor scholar takes a lot of work to overcome, if it ever does, while having a reputation of good scholarship takes a lot of errors to screw up.

You may be right. I will certainly fact check him from here on out but in reality, there are very few factual error he has made and he has apologized clearly for those he did make.

I will agree he can be annoying and frustrating but in all honesty, I think he is a more credible scholar than you give him credit for.

Still, I have to check this out (Horowitz scholarship) further. I suspect he's pretty solid on poli sci, perhaps a bit less so when it comes to history.

284 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:57:03pm

re: #280 researchok

I can cite legions of error filled articles by progressives- does that nullify them as well?

It isn't my opinion; it's my judgment. Horowitz isn't worth my time.

Hitchens isn't a progressive but if you can find an error in his writing, you've done yeoman's work. Hirsch writes for the New Yorker which is justifiably famous for its fact checking. Gary Wills doesn't make mistakes.

If you can find errors in articles by progressives, yeah, that discredits them.

285 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:57:56pm

re: #280 researchok

I can cite legions of error filled articles by progressives- does that nullify them as well?

It would - if it were all for the same individual left wing reporter as it seems to be for Horowitz. If a left wing reporter - or someone who sought to portray themselves as more than just an opinion merchant - then he would be discredited.

Hororwitz seems to have a defined MO - defend the conservative at all costs - even before the facts are in in several cases (see colorado exam paper controversy).

Hororwitz maybe right or wrong - but his consistent record of wrongness is very difficult to overcome. if he said 2+2=4 i would have to double check his working.

286 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 2:59:58pm

re: #282 b_sharp

I don't know. Throw me a couple of links.
If their scholarship sucks, then I would have to say yes.

Samantha Power, John Prendergast for starters. These 'scholars' and 'experts' have done a 180 on Darfur.

287 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:01:25pm

re: #277 researchok

You are recycling the same three pieces you posted earlier, including two from far right wing sources.
In the fact based universe, one cannot honestly make a statement like Allende would have been worse than Pinochet, because it didn't happen. It doesn't matter if you think he may have, reality doesn't support your assertion.

This is like using the Andy Cap defense where in the old English comic strip, Cap told the judge he punched a guy because he thought the other guy was going to punch him first.

288 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:05:21pm

re: #221 Spare O'Lake

I believe that is correct, but besides my point. In order to qualify for international legitimacy it should not be sufficient for a regime simply to enjoy popular support. It should also be necessary for the government's powers to be limited by a constitutionally protected bill of rights and an independent judiciary. All 3 are necessary, otherwise you have tyranny by the majority and even worse, the ability of the party in power to cement its position by extrajudicial means.

By that standard, exactly how many countries get 'international legitimacy'?

289 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:05:28pm

re: #285 wozzablog

It would - if it were all for the same individual left wing reporter as it seems to be for Horowitz. If a left wing reporter - or someone who sought to portray themselves as more than just an opinion merchant - then he would be discredited.

Hororwitz seems to have a defined MO - defend the conservative at all costs - even before the facts are in in several cases (see colorado exam paper controversy).

Hororwitz maybe right or wrong - but his consistent record of wrongness is very difficult to overcome. if he said 2+2=4 i would have to double check his working.

Here's where we disagree. I can't find a trend of factual errors by Horowitz! I see lots of disagreement (no surprise) but no pattern of accusations by other academics of factual error.

As to Horowitz style, you are right. He has found a niche and exploits it, a la Hitchens, Sullivan, et al.

By the way, thank you for this conversation. In addition to being cogent, I appreciate the civil exchange. I really do.

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:07:07pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

This order allowing the assassination of an American citizen is a continuation of a Bush/Cheney policy. When it was first discovered by the left, all hell broke loose. You can find article after article about this policy and read the comments.

But now, when Obama uses the same policy for the exact same reasons Bush/Cheney developed to policy, it's all cookie and milk.

I can smell the hypocrisy from here.

Cookies and milk? What are they saying on the lefty outlets?

291 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:07:22pm

re: #287 Reginald Perrin

You are recycling the same three pieces you posted earlier, including two from far right wing sources.
In the fact based universe, one cannot honestly make a statement like Allende would have been worse than Pinochet, because it didn't happen. It doesn't matter if you think he may have, reality doesn't support your assertion.

This is like using the Andy Cap defense where in the old English comic strip, Cap told the judge he punched a guy because he thought the other guy was going to punch him first.

Yes, that is true.

Again i ask, where are the factual error and deliberate obfuscations in any of the articles? Until you cite the errors, it would appear as if you excoriating Horowitz (and others) because you don't agree with him.

292 Olsonist  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:10:53pm

re: #291 researchok

Horowitz' errors have already been cited and Horowitz' credibility has already been impeached, #201 Obdicut

293 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:13:40pm

re: #289 researchok

I appreciate the conversation too.

I can't find a trend of factual errors by Horowitz!

Compromise - a well defined and documented history of poor academic judgement and horse backing..............

Mediamatters and others - partisan if you wish to call them such - have masses of different hororwitz word soup jumbles.

Colorado exam paper.
His (research students) book on academics
Defending mel gibson
declaring Obama to be a manchurian candidate
princeton student assault case
smearing Soros as a nazi colaberator.

(there are more)

294 Reginald Perrin  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:14:05pm

re: #291 researchok

I give up!

There is nothing in those articles that support your claim that Allende would have been a more murderous dictator than Pinocet, that is strictly your opinion, one that you share with other right wingers.

Unless you have the ability to posthumously read Allende's mind, it will always remain just that, your opinion and nothing more.

295 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:15:50pm

That is no pattern of error or deliberate deceit.

Cite me a real pattern of errors or academics accusing him of error. Simply disagreeing doesn't make him wrong.

Should we excoriate or negate Teddy Kennedy's entire career for his cheating and plagiarism at Harvard?

296 lostlakehiker  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:17:22pm

re: #50 Cato the Elder

So, would a coup to bring down Obama's "socialist" régime and install an American Pinochet be justified under any circumstances?

The premise is ridiculously wide of the mark. Obama is not a socialist. If he were, socialism is not communism. And if he were communist, which he is not, then our constitution would still constrain him.

It requires a wild range of fantastical what-ifs to get to the point that talk of extra-judicial steps can be anything but nonsense and dangerous nonsense at that. You'd have to have a string of killings that could be laid at his door, knocking off elected leaders, governors who had talked back, senators who didn't fall into line, and editorialists who complained. Mr. Putin begins to fit this description, Hugo Chavez fits it to a T; President Obama does not. Not even one whit.

You'd have to have a string of extrajudicial steps, such as the establishment of a national-level secret police answerable only to him and his appointees, rather than to any sort of law or court. Again, some fit, fairly good fit, no fit.

At some point, your hypothetical Caesar crosses the Rubicon and by that deed qualifies himself as an enemy of the constitution of the united states [domestic]. And if that happens, then the armed forces, if they do remove that Caesar from power, have not carried out a coup. They have carried out a counterrevolution; a restoration; a liberation.

No U.S. president has ever come anywhere near requiring such removal. When Nixon was impeached and it became apparent to him that he would be voted out by the Senate, he resigned. No night of the long knives, no decrees. Just a wave in front of the helicopter and a departure for private life. There is nothing, nothing, nothing in Obama's record or his ambitions to justify suggestions that something other than waiting for the next election, or waiting for him to be timed-out by the two-term limit, would be in order.

297 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:17:54pm

re: #295 researchok

That is no pattern of error or deliberate deceit.

See 293, and then check out - and i can provide links - for his obfuscations and self repudiations, half rebuttals and senseless jumblings on each topic.

He broaches topics - gets found out - then runs around in circles.

298 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:18:44pm

The problem is Horowitz just loves to make shit up.

299 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:20:07pm

re: #294 Reginald Perrin

I give up!

There is nothing in those articles that support your claim that Allende would have been a more murderous dictator than Pinocet, that is strictly your opinion, one that you share with other right wingers.

Unless you have the ability to posthumously read Allende's mind, it will always remain just that, your opinion and nothing more.

My 'claim' as you put it was that Allende set up the very mechanisms that Pinochet used himself. Allende had already started the extra judiciary killings before he was booted out.

You are right to say note that I don't have a crystal ball so I don't lknow for sure that Allende would have killed like Pinochet.

I suppose we can't say that Osama bin Laden really woulndn't have killed many thousands more if he got the chance.

300 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:21:53pm

re: #297 wozzablog

See 293, and then check out - and i can provide links - for his obfuscations and self repudiations, half rebuttals and senseless jumblings on each topic.

He broaches topics - gets found out - then runs around in circles.

OK, that seems to be what I'm looking for. I will check that out.

Thanks.

301 lostlakehiker  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:22:32pm

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

So... I guess we never learn...

The Obama administration has taken the extraordinary step of authorizing the targeted killing of an American citizen, the radical Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki

Good for Obama. The man is a traitor and if we get him, good riddance. You can't cut videos for Al Qaeda, advise them, etc. and then run under the skirts of "citizen". You're just another leader in the enemy camp when you do that.

302 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:24:23pm

ok, later days all.

303 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:27:09pm

re: #293 wozzablog

I appreciate the conversation too.

Compromise - a well defined and documented history of poor academic judgement and horse backing...

Mediamatters and others - partisan if you wish to call them such - have masses of different hororwitz word soup jumbles.

Colorado exam paper.
His (research students) book on academics
Defending mel gibson
declaring Obama to be a manchurian candidate
princeton student assault case
smearing Soros as a nazi colaberator.

(there are more)

By the way, how do you separate the agenda based provocateurs from the substantive stuff? For example, Media Matters (which as of late has gotten better), Source Watch (Not so good! Recall these were the 'Disinfodia originators. God knows how much crap they've had to pull!) and Frontpage, Expose the Networks, etc., etc..

I tell you, I don't really trust any of them anymore. I really do take it on a case by case situation. Whenever I hear a wholesale condemnation I tend to get really leery.

304 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:33:33pm

re: #303 researchok

mediamatters research on Horowitz is very very good - particularly their line by line disections of his books and statetments on princeton, mel gibson and colorado are all backed up by the established facts and Hororwitz' own statements in his own words.

Mediamatters have a massive audio/visual archive of Hororwitz being wrongheaded, in his own words - and even extending him the courtesy he does not extend to others of not clipping quotes.

The ire i have for Horowritz is rare among the conservative talking heads - he is out there in my estimation with beck, coulter and hannity.

305 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:36:24pm

re: #304 wozzablog

mediamatters research on Horowitz is very very good - particularly their line by line disections of his books and statetments on princeton, mel gibson and colorado are all backed up by the established facts and Hororwitz' own statements in his own words.

Mediamatters have a massive audio/visual archive of Hororwitz being wrongheaded, in his own words - and even extending him the courtesy he does not extend to others of not clipping quotes.

The ire i have for Horowritz is rare among the conservative talking heads - he is out there in my estimation with beck, coulter and hannity.

I'm going to do some more homework on these guys (all of them).

That said, ain't nobody out there like Beck, Coulter or Hannity (in my opinion, the worst of the lot).

306 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:40:47pm

re: #305 researchok

Those three latch onto bandwagons.

Hororwitz attempts to create them.

307 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:43:26pm

anyhews, again, g'night

308 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:45:58pm

re: #306 wozzablog

Those three latch onto bandwagons.

Hororwitz attempts to create them.

Naw... he's got the academic chops. They're hacks.

I will check him out more closely, but he does have a body of legit work.

Now, I just want to know if he's a 3 card monte jerk.

309 researchok  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 3:46:15pm

re: #307 wozzablog

anyhews, again, g'night

later!

310 b_sharp  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 4:56:57pm

re: #286 researchok

Samantha Power, John Prendergast for starters. These 'scholars' and 'experts' have done a 180 on Darfur.

I could find nothing that reflected poor research, quote mining or anything else wrong with S. Power.

If you have something you'll have to give me a direct link.

311 b_sharp  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 5:01:23pm

re: #286 researchok

Samantha Power, John Prendergast for starters. These 'scholars' and 'experts' have done a 180 on Darfur.

Same with John Prendergast.

I'm finding a lot of sites that admire him but haven't found any the question his work.

You must have a link to at least one site that discusses these two.

312 John Vreeland  Mon, Apr 12, 2010 6:27:51pm

re: #295 researchok

Should we excoriate or negate Teddy Kennedy's entire career for his cheating and plagiarism at Harvard?

Of course not. He was a Kennedy, after all.

313 Sacred Plants  Wed, Apr 14, 2010 6:16:42am

re: #4 Charles

I don't think it's a direct tie -- the most they're saying right now is that Kissinger blocked the sending of a cable that would have told South American leaders (dictators, most of them) not to support Operation Condor.

In the days before the Letelier bombing, that might have been enough to get the plan called off. And it might not. No way to know for sure.

But this cable does make the case for Kissinger's involvement with Condor that much stronger.

The irony here is that at least Henry Kissinger did nothing. For comparison, President Bush could have sent a similiar message to Arab leaders just before 9/11, but instead chose to do something worse than nothing.


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