Demon Sheep Strike Back
Weird • Views: 2,478
California politics is getting very, very weird.
342 comments
1 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 7:44:15pm |
People are saying Democrats did this? Don’t be fooled, by the opening credits there’s no way we could be this clever!
| 3 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 7:46:23pm |
I think it’s a brilliant ad.
I don’t see anything from Carly to show me she’s up for the job.
| 7 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 7:48:09pm |
I miss Hunter Thompson, the ONLY journalist that could interpret this well.
| 8 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, May 7, 2010 7:50:37pm |
re: #4 Killgore Trout
Just legalize pot and get it over with.
I don’t think the creators of these ads are waiting.
| 10 |
cenotaphium Fri, May 7, 2010 7:51:16pm |
Whoever did this saw Black Sheep, right?
Yes. Zombie sheep. You must watch this, Bub commands it.
| 11 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 7:51:24pm |
| 12 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 7:51:36pm |
re: #7 Floral Giraffe
I miss Hunter Thompson, the ONLY journalist that could interpret this well.
Spider: I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today. I want vasopressin, washed caffeine, jumpstart, gingko biloba, guarana, and any intelligence enhancer introduced in the last five years.
Kid: You some kind of health freak?
Spider: I’m a journalist, damnit.
| 13 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 7:51:52pm |
| 15 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 7:54:57pm |
So Sheep are registered to vote in California? I’m confused, what are they trying to say?…
/Dohh!
| 16 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Fri, May 7, 2010 7:55:22pm |
Of course California politics are weird. It’s California!
(I mean, seriously, folks, what did you think it was?)
| 17 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, May 7, 2010 7:56:41pm |
re: #6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Mutton. B-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-d.
I knew someone who was in the Navy during WWII. His ship was anchored off the coast of Africa for a while and the only meat they had was mutton. He said the had mutton every day for months. To this day he can’t stand the smell of lamb.
| 18 |
Ojoe Fri, May 7, 2010 7:57:41pm |
| 19 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 7:58:04pm |
And speaking of crazy politics, can’t wait for the new Grindhouse flick.
| 20 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 7:58:43pm |
re: #17 NJDhockeyfan
Aunt Voula: What do you mean he don’t eat no meat?
[the entire room stops, in shock]
Aunt Voula: Oh, that’s okay. I make lamb.
-My Big Fat Greek Wedding
| 22 |
SteveC Fri, May 7, 2010 7:59:33pm |
re: #9 jaunte
It’s strictly medicinal…
Honest! We keep it in the same cabinet as the medicinal brandy!
| 24 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:00:25pm |
re: #17 NJDhockeyfan
I knew someone who was in the Navy during WWII. His ship was anchored off the coast of Africa for a while and the only meat they had was mutton. He said the had mutton every day for months. To this day he can’t stand the smell of lamb.
Just make sure he never gets so tied up in his hatred for it that he waste a night arguing how best to barbecue dwarfs.
| 25 |
Ojoe Fri, May 7, 2010 8:02:04pm |
Time to join the Modern Whigs, I think.
Centrist, moderate, dedicated to getting things done.
| 27 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, May 7, 2010 8:02:51pm |
re: #7 Floral Giraffe
I miss Hunter Thompson, the ONLY journalist that could interpret this well.
I think we’ve long since passed the Hunter Thompson exit, and are now into William H. Burroughs territory.
I drew closer and laid my dirty junky fingers on his sharkskin sleeve. “And us blood brothers in the same dirty needle, I can tell you in confidence he is due for a hot shot.” (Footnote: This is a cap of poison junk sold to addicts for liquidation purposes. Often given to informers. Usually the hot shot is strychnine since it tastes and looks like junk.) “Ever see a hot shot hit, kid? I saw The Gimp catch one in Philly. We rigged his room with a one-way whorehouse mirror and charged a sawski to watch it. He never got the needle out of his arm. They don’t if the shot is right. That’s the way they find them, dropper full of clotted blood hanging out of a blue arm. The look in his eyes when it hit — Kid, it was tasty….
The picture of American political discourse, circa 2010. Congratulations; you’re living in a time that people will be microanalyzing 50 years from now.
| 28 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 8:03:06pm |
re: #19 laZardo
And speaking of crazy politics, can’t wait for the new Grindhouse flick.
[Video]
Great stuff. The flick looks corny crazy, just like the first two in the series. And yes, I also put Machete in with Planet Terror and Death Proof. I wonder if Tarantino will do a cameo in this one.
| 29 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 8:03:51pm |
| 30 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:03:58pm |
re: #28 Dark_Falcon
Death Proof was off the hook!
| 31 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 8:04:16pm |
re: #28 Dark_Falcon
Great stuff. The flick looks corny crazy, just like the first two in the series. And yes, I also put Machete in with Planet Terror and Death Proof. I wonder if Tarantino will do a cameo in this one.
Machete is Robert Rodriguez’s, not Tarantino’s.
| 32 |
webevintage Fri, May 7, 2010 8:04:25pm |
baaaa baaaaa baahahahahahaha
The sheep at the end on the “teaparty” poster with the hat killed me…
| 33 |
Ojoe Fri, May 7, 2010 8:05:00pm |
re: #29 Stanley Sea
Cool. There is a little bit more light on the top of Mt. Wilson then.
| 34 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 8:06:20pm |
re: #31 laZardo
Machete is Robert Rodriguez’s, not Tarantino’s.
Oh wait, yeah, Tarantino cameo’d in Planet Terror. My bad.
| 35 |
Killgore Trout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:07:05pm |
re: #19 laZardo
And speaking of crazy politics, can’t wait for the new Grindhouse flick.
[Video]
Looks like fun.
| 36 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, May 7, 2010 8:08:32pm |
Baa Baa Black Sheep Squadron
| 38 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 8:11:03pm |
re: #34 laZardo
Oh wait, yeah, Tarantino cameo’d in Planet Terror. My bad.
Thanks for the self-catch. It does look like a fun movie, and putting out that trailer was a smart move. It gets the flick free buzz. Wingnuts will howl and Robert Rodriguez will laugh all the way to the bank.
| 39 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 8:11:30pm |
| 40 |
stevemcg Fri, May 7, 2010 8:11:55pm |
re: #36 NJDhockeyfan
Loved the way those Corsairs chewed up those AT-6’s.
| 41 |
SteveC Fri, May 7, 2010 8:12:41pm |
re: #39 Dark_Falcon
Yeah, this is me Riceball.
Oh, you are surprised I speak your language so well? I was educated at your UCLA before the war!
| 42 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:12:45pm |
re: #38 Dark_Falcon
There a scarier looking dude in movies today than Danny Trejo?
Not counting Gary Busey, of course.
| 44 |
MandyManners Fri, May 7, 2010 8:13:36pm |
The rest of the day was spent deciding that The Kid has FLUNKED fourth grade.
| 45 |
compound idaho Fri, May 7, 2010 8:13:58pm |
| 46 |
SteveC Fri, May 7, 2010 8:14:08pm |
re: #43 freetoken
I live in an Altered State.
And I live in the State of Confusion. I think they share a border.
| 47 |
sattv4u2 Fri, May 7, 2010 8:14:17pm |
| 48 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 8:14:29pm |
And now for my Jerry Brown PSA
Why was he called Gov. Moonbeam??
As Governor, Brown proposed the establishment of a state space academy and the purchasing of a satellite that would be launched into orbit to provide emergency communications for the state—a proposal similar to one that would indeed eventually be adopted by the state.
Satellites. Yep. Common practice now. I did not know this, and I think some people still don’t.
| 49 |
reine.de.tout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:14:34pm |
What triggered the blast on the rig.
This story seems to track pretty closely to what the Roi has heard happened.
It happened so fast, the safeguards were blown before they could activate.
| 50 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, May 7, 2010 8:14:41pm |
re: #44 MandyManners
The rest of the day was spent deciding that The Kid has FLUNKED fourth grade.
Oh, joy. How’s he taking it?
How are you taking it?
| 51 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, May 7, 2010 8:14:47pm |
re: #37 SteveC
You up here, Boyington?
Here is an interview with Pappy Boyington & Robert Conrad on the Today show.
| 53 |
reine.de.tout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:15:43pm |
re: #44 MandyManners
The rest of the day was spent deciding that The Kid has FLUNKED fourth grade.
{{mandy}}
One of my nephews was “held back” in 3rd grade, and it was the best thing that could have happened. The extra year of maturity helped him a lot.
Don’t fret.
| 54 |
MandyManners Fri, May 7, 2010 8:16:16pm |
re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh, joy. How’s he taking it?
How are you taking it?
It’s not final.
I’m just coasting.
| 55 |
MandyManners Fri, May 7, 2010 8:17:20pm |
| 56 |
SteveC Fri, May 7, 2010 8:17:22pm |
re: #45 compound idaho
Pappy Boyington Field Coeur d”Alene, Idaho Airport
This is my airplane, I’m just loaning it to you. Don’t bring my airplane back all shot up, Boyington! - Sgt. Micklin
| 57 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:19:30pm |
re: #55 MandyManners
NOT WELL AT ALL.
Ouch, I threw a royal hissy fit when I found out I was going to be put in my schools Special Education program (ran all the way home (it was about a block) after being told by my mom when the two of us were out on a nice walk) and I can’t imagine how much worse it must be to be told you’re going to be held back….
| 58 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 8:19:41pm |
re: #44 MandyManners
The rest of the day was spent deciding that The Kid has FLUNKED fourth grade.
I’m very sorry to hear that. Is it a huge deal if he has to repeat a grade?
| 59 |
stevemcg Fri, May 7, 2010 8:19:42pm |
re: #56 SteveC
Reminds me of a CLick and Clack Puzzler. The story was that the RAF had a guy analyze the returning bombers to decide where to put the armor. Obviously he could not see the ones that got shot down. So how did he decide where to put the armor? At the places that didn’t have bullet holes.
| 61 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 8:20:20pm |
re: #48 Stanley Sea
Because he dated Linda Ronstadt!
| 62 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:20:28pm |
re: #58 Floral Giraffe
I’m very sorry to hear that. Is it a huge deal if he has to repeat a grade?
My mom told me it was because the teacher liked me so much. She lied?
| 63 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 8:20:32pm |
re: #49 reine.de.tout
What triggered the blast on the rig.
This story seems to track pretty closely to what the Roi has heard happened.
It happened so fast, the safeguards were blown before they could activate.
Hold on, I thought it was a North Korean suicide mini sub explosion?
Methane? Hah!, you actually think anyone will believe something that far fetched?
/
| 64 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:21:04pm |
re: #62 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My mom told me it was because the teacher liked me so much. She lied?
Um. Sit down. We need to talk about Santa…
| 66 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, May 7, 2010 8:21:19pm |
Greg “Pappy” Boyington on “To Tell The Truth”
| 67 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 8:21:41pm |
re: #40 stevemcg
Loved the way those Corsairs chewed up those AT-6’s.
There were no flyable Zeros at the time Black Sheep Squadron was filmed. That has changed in recent years, with salvage of old wrecks yielding a small number of flying Zeros.
The Zero was quite badly outclassed by the Corsair. Though it could turn tighter, it was slower, had less firepower, and had no armor or self-sealing fuel tanks. The A6M3s committed to the Solomons and Rabaul in 1943 were at a grave disadvantage facing the Black Sheep.
| 68 |
reine.de.tout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:21:46pm |
re: #64 Cannadian Club Akbar
Um. Sit down. We need to talk about Santa…
LOL.
You know what’s funny - my daughter finally figured out Santa.
But she continued to believe in the Easter Bunny for another year.
*sigh*
It’s over way too quickly.
| 69 |
What, me worry? Fri, May 7, 2010 8:21:53pm |
re: #48 Stanley Sea
And now for my Jerry Brown PSA
Why was he called Gov. Moonbeam??
Satellites. Yep. Common practice now. I did not know this, and I think some people still don’t.
Brown was really quite ahead of his time. He was a big environmentalist too.
| 70 |
MandyManners Fri, May 7, 2010 8:21:55pm |
re: #58 Floral Giraffe
I’m very sorry to hear that. Is it a huge deal if he has to repeat a grade?
Oh, yeah.
| 72 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:22:33pm |
re: #65 MandyManners
(((James)))
Huh?
Sorry I guess you must have approved because you updinged me…
Wait….
Is that a fancy way of saying “hug”?
| 74 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:23:04pm |
re: #49 reine.de.tout
Ain’t tonight when they were going to try the new thang?
(Sorry if I am being overly technical)
| 75 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 8:23:32pm |
| 76 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:23:34pm |
re: #74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Ain’t tonight when they were going to try the new thang?
(Sorry if I am being overly technical)
Elitist!!
| 77 |
Ojoe Fri, May 7, 2010 8:23:47pm |
re: #67 Dark_Falcon
There are three flying zeros at the moment; only one with a Japanese engine. I saw another at the Watsonville air show; it had a pratt and whitney.
| 78 |
reine.de.tout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:24:06pm |
re: #74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Ain’t tonight when they were going to try the new thang?
(Sorry if I am being overly technical)
It’s on the sea floor now.
They want to wait 12 hours before attaching the pipe and beginning to pipe it to the boat at the surface. Not sure when the 12 hours will be up. It’s there, ready to go. Everybody pray.
| 79 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 8:24:16pm |
re: #75 Stanley Sea
But, he will ALWAYS remain Governor Moonbeam!
Such a great name. Too bad Arnold never got a good one.
| 81 |
jvic Fri, May 7, 2010 8:24:57pm |
re: #2 SanFranciscoZionist
GETTING weird?
That was my thought exactly, and I’m all the way over in MA.
The ad is hilarious, but once I stopped chuckling:
1. “Slashing health care and firing teachers.” It sounds like an ad for the governor’s mansion, not the Senate seat.
2. What party controlled the CA legislature during the ‘Schwarzenegger budget nightmare’? Just askin’…
3. As somebody who will vote for most any Republican who is qualified and competent (note the escape clause), I wish Carly Fiorina had followed her fellow stock-option zillionaires Jon Corzine and Maria Cantwell to the Democratic Party.
| 82 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:25:03pm |
re: #79 Floral Giraffe
The “Governator” was brilliant, I thought.
| 83 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:25:04pm |
re: #79 Floral Giraffe
But, he will ALWAYS remain Governor Moonbeam!
Such a great name. Too bad Arnold never got a good one.
What do you mean? Isn’t he the Governator? Or is that just in liberal circles?
| 84 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 8:25:17pm |
re: #78 reine.de.tout
Been praying for days. Will try harder, though.
| 85 |
reine.de.tout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:25:20pm |
re: #60 MandyManners
…
Mandy -
You will get through it.
As will he.
Love him without reservation.
And be glad he hasn’t come home and told you he’s pregnant.
| 86 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:26:10pm |
re: #85 reine.de.tout
Yeah. ‘Cause then she has to buy him Mother’s Day Cards.
| 87 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 8:26:29pm |
re: #82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
It’s not said, locally, much. At least, I haven’t heard it & the local papers don’t use it. He’s just been hamstrung by the unions, basically.
| 88 |
reine.de.tout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:26:38pm |
re: #86 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Yeah. ‘Cause then she has to buy him Mother’s Day Cards.
Now, that would be really weird.
| 89 |
SteveC Fri, May 7, 2010 8:26:39pm |
re: #74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Ain’t tonight when they were going to try the new thang?
(Sorry if I am being overly technical)
The Butterfly position? (As described on L.A. Law?) :)
| 90 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:26:43pm |
| 91 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 8:28:02pm |
re: #77 Ojoe
There are three flying zeros at the moment; only one with a Japanese engine. I saw another at the Watsonville air show; it had a pratt and whitney.
Thanks for the info. I knew their have been some wreck recoveries, but I did not know what had become of many of them.
| 92 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:28:18pm |
| 93 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 8:29:54pm |
re: #79 Floral Giraffe
But, he will ALWAYS remain Governor Moonbeam!
Such a great name. Too bad Arnold never got a good one.
The prison system wouldn’t let him.
| 94 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 8:30:18pm |
And, then we have this random (as far as I can tell) Proposition 16.
To prevent local governments from taking over the electric companies. Well, just one, as far as I can tell. They’re VERY well funded, PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric), I get junk mail from the Prop.16 stuff every day in the mail.
It’s very strange & I wonder what triggered it?
[Link: ballotpedia.org…]
And, WTF is “balletopedia”?
| 95 |
sattv4u2 Fri, May 7, 2010 8:31:10pm |
World Cup Welcome: A Billion Condoms and 40,000 Sex Workers
[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]
Who says soccer isn’t a great game !?!
| 96 |
reine.de.tout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:31:39pm |
re: #74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Ain’t tonight when they were going to try the new thang?
(Sorry if I am being overly technical)
Here’s a photo of the thang being lowered into the water.
| 97 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 8:32:45pm |
re: #94 Floral Giraffe
And, then we have this random (as far as I can tell) Proposition 16.
To prevent local governments from taking over the electric companies. Well, just one, as far as I can tell. They’re VERY well funded, PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric), I get junk mail from the Prop.16 stuff every day in the mail.
It’s very strange & I wonder what triggered it?
[Link: ballotpedia.org…]And, WTF is “balletopedia”?
Gah, can’t handle reading about that tonight. I haven’t received anything yet! I will look and review when clear headed.
| 98 |
SteveC Fri, May 7, 2010 8:32:55pm |
re: #96 reine.de.tout
Here’s a photo of the thang being lowered into the water.
It’s Clobberin’ Time!
| 99 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:33:17pm |
re: #95 sattv4u2
World Cup Welcome: A Billion Condoms and 40,000 Sex Workers
[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]Who says soccer isn’t a great game !?!
Sounds like there will soon be a lot of balls that have to be sorted out.
| 100 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 8:33:44pm |
So I headed over to my Presidential Candidate’s miting de avance (final campaign rally) and I got a green headband. I swear I look suspiciously like a Hamas member with that on.
| 101 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:34:16pm |
Getting your name in the paper?
Not always a good thing.
| 102 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 8:34:19pm |
re: #99 jamesfirecat
Sounds like there will soon be a lot of balls that have to be sorted out.
And a lot of positions to fill.
| 103 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:35:04pm |
re: #101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Getting your name in the paper?
Not always a good thing.
Maybe it was really cold.
| 104 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:35:12pm |
re: #102 laZardo
And a lot of positions to fill.
Hope people keep in mind that while you can score with your “head”, hands are a no no….
| 105 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 8:35:29pm |
re: #95 sattv4u2
World Cup Welcome: A Billion Condoms and 40,000 Sex Workers
[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]Who says soccer isn’t a great game !?!
From a link on the same page:
Palin Endorsement Outrages Some Facebook Fans
Even Sarah Palin can’t be allowed to be pragmatic, according to certain “real conservatives”. They must really like Jerry Brown, because he’s the one helped by their antics.
| 106 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:36:08pm |
re: #101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Getting your name in the paper?
Not always a good thing.
Most people go through life unnoticed. Their names are never in the paper; they’ve got no laws named after them. That’s fine for most people, but I want more.
| 107 |
sattv4u2 Fri, May 7, 2010 8:36:59pm |
re: #106 jamesfirecat
Most people go through life unnoticed. Their names are never in the paper; they’ve got no laws named after them. That’s fine for most people, but I want more.
You want a law named after you !?!?
| 108 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 8:37:06pm |
re: #99 jamesfirecat
Sounds like there will soon be a lot of balls that have to be sorted out.
In bed.
Or against a convenient wall. :D
| 109 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:37:12pm |
re: #106 jamesfirecat
Obviously, so does the dude in the story.
| 110 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:37:33pm |
re: #106 jamesfirecat
Most people go through life unnoticed. Their names are never in the paper; they’ve got no laws named after them. That’s fine for most people, but I want more.
You haven’t lived until your mug shot has been on TV. Or so I hear…
| 111 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:37:40pm |
re: #107 sattv4u2
You want a law named after you !?!?
It’s a quote from Malcolm in the Middle.
[Link: www.imdb.com…]
| 112 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 8:37:52pm |
re: #101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
An airport security guard allegedly battered a colleague who ridiculed him about the size of his manhood after he walked through a hi-tech body scanner.
Miami-Dade Police say Rolando Negrin snapped because he ‘couldn’t take the jokes anymore’.
I guess you could say he…overcompensated.
| 113 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 8:37:56pm |
re: #95 sattv4u2
World Cup Welcome: A Billion Condoms and 40,000 Sex Workers
[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]Who says soccer isn’t a great game !?!
Well, they are tasering spectators at a GOLF TOURNEMENT!!
PONTE VEDRA BEACH — A 36-year-old man was subdued by a Taser during the second round of The Players Championship.
Travis Parmelee, of Jacksonville, has been charged with disorderly intoxication and resisting arrest without violence, according to The Associated Press’ Mark Long.
| 114 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:38:33pm |
re: #107 sattv4u2
You want a law named after you !?!?
My wife has “rule” named after her. She cut her pinky finger off at work on a radiation therapy machine. Nationwide alerts went out with the “Linda Rule”…
| 115 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 8:38:37pm |
re: #104 jamesfirecat
Hope people keep in mind that while you can score with your “head”, hands are a no no…
And that you need to be able to keep from going soft under the pressure.
| 117 |
SteveC Fri, May 7, 2010 8:38:51pm |
excuse me for a moment, folks. Mini-crisis via email. Take a moment or two to stomp out the fire.
| 118 |
reine.de.tout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:39:18pm |
re: #116 avanti
Oil rig explosion cause explained.
Beatcha to it:
re: #49 reine.de.tout
What triggered the blast on the rig.
This story seems to track pretty closely to what the Roi has heard happened.
It happened so fast, the safeguards were blown before they could activate.
| 119 |
sattv4u2 Fri, May 7, 2010 8:39:48pm |
re: #114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My wife has “rule” named after her. She cut her pinky finger off at work on a radiation therapy machine. Nationwide alerts went out with the “Linda Rule”…
“They fired me because I stuck my finger into a pickle slicer
They fired the pickle slicer too”
Ron White
| 120 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 8:40:37pm |
re: #119 sattv4u2
“They fired me because I stuck my finger into a pickle slicer
They fired the pickle slicer too”Ron White
You cannot help but read that in his voice, manually.
| 121 |
sattv4u2 Fri, May 7, 2010 8:40:41pm |
| 122 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:40:49pm |
re: #117 SteveC
excuse me for a moment, folks. Mini-crisis via email. Take a moment or two to stomp out the fire.
Why do ducks have webbed feet? To stomp out forest fires.
Why do elephants live in trees? To stomp out flaming ducks.
| 123 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:41:18pm |
| 124 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:41:47pm |
re: #115 laZardo
And that you need to be able to keep from going soft under the pressure.
Remember you need to be ready to play for 45 min, and go back in there after a 15 min break….
| 125 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 8:42:03pm |
re: #121 sattv4u2
I was thinking farted, but OK. Yes.
| 126 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:42:04pm |
re: #122 Cannadian Club Akbar
The black stuff between elephants toes? Slow ducks.
| 127 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, May 7, 2010 8:42:11pm |
re: #122 Cannadian Club Akbar
Why do ducks have webbed feet? To stomp out forest fires.
Why do elephants live in trees? To stomp out flaming ducks.
We covered ducks last night!
| 128 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 8:42:27pm |
re: #123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Didja see that kid get tasered at the Phillie’s game.
Was great.
Yep. He called his dad to clear the running on the field beforehand. Pitiful.
| 129 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 8:42:47pm |
re: #127 NJDhockeyfan
We’re doing sheep tonight!
Baaahd!
| 130 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:43:15pm |
re: #128 Stanley Sea
Yep. He called his dad to clear the running on the field beforehand. Pitiful.
Not as bad as the father/son team that attacked the umpire years ago.
| 131 |
sattv4u2 Fri, May 7, 2010 8:43:18pm |
re: #128 Stanley Sea
Yep. He called his dad to clear the running on the field beforehand. Pitiful.
If dad said yes, they should go and taser HIM
| 132 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, May 7, 2010 8:43:23pm |
| 133 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:43:35pm |
I’d love to stay longer, but I don’t want to.
G’night knuckleheads!
| 134 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:43:54pm |
re: #129 Floral Giraffe
We’re doing sheep tonight!
Baaahd!
Were “doing” sheep. Thank goodness for the condom link.
/
| 135 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 8:44:17pm |
re: #121 sattv4u2
So basically, the earth burped!
I’d say it was the mechanical process, that fooled with the earth. Not the earth in particular.
I’m still really bummed about this whole thing, as is the coastline.
| 136 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:44:17pm |
re: #130 Cannadian Club Akbar
Not as bad as the father/son team that attacked the umpire years ago.
Did they get prison time?
Please say yes.
| 137 |
tnguitarist Fri, May 7, 2010 8:44:35pm |
| 138 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 8:44:44pm |
re: #130 Cannadian Club Akbar
Not as bad as the father/son team that attacked the umpire years ago.
Oh yeah, I remember that! wow
| 139 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:45:02pm |
re: #136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Did they get prison time?
Please say yes.
Don’t remember. Kid was young. Dad was a douche.
| 140 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 8:46:14pm |
re: #78 reine.de.tout
It’s on the sea floor now.
They want to wait 12 hours before attaching the pipe and beginning to pipe it to the boat at the surface. Not sure when the 12 hours will be up. It’s there, ready to go. Everybody pray.
It is much, much more complicated than that, it is so cold down there that the oil will partially solidify and block up the pipe on the way up. They will be pumping warm water mixed with methanol down and then sucking up the mixture. (why the “dome” had all those nipples sticking out of it at odd angles) When it gets to the surface they have to separate the methanol and water from the oil, along with venting off and burning the natural gas that comes up.
It is an engineers nightmare to have to come up with a system to do that in only a few weeks and then pray it works. Because you can be damn sure your name will make it into the news if it fails and your engineering career will be over.
| 141 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, May 7, 2010 8:46:20pm |
re: #78 reine.de.tout
It’s on the sea floor now.
They want to wait 12 hours before attaching the pipe and beginning to pipe it to the boat at the surface. Not sure when the 12 hours will be up. It’s there, ready to go. Everybody pray.
Believe it. I’m rooting for that weird-looking white thing with all my strength.
| 142 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, May 7, 2010 8:46:36pm |
re: #79 Floral Giraffe
But, he will ALWAYS remain Governor Moonbeam!
Such a great name. Too bad Arnold never got a good one.
Well, he was the Governator. We even had t-shirts at the airports.
| 143 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:47:15pm |
re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, he was the Governator. We even had t-shirts at the airports.
Put into office by a Total Recall I might add!
| 144 |
jvic Fri, May 7, 2010 8:47:43pm |
re: #105 Dark_Falcon
From a link on the same page:
Palin Endorsement Outrages Some Facebook Fans
Even Sarah Palin can’t be allowed to be pragmatic, according to certain “real conservatives”. They must really like Jerry Brown, because he’s the one helped by their antics.
From the text:
The former Republican vice presidential candidate made the endorsement on her Facebook page, saying Fiorina’s experience running a major corporation is sorely lacking in Washington.
Given Fiorina’s record at HP and Palin’s in Alaska, the attack ads just write themselves. Sarah Palin and Carly Fiorina got rich by failing at their jobs. Etc etc etc.
| 145 |
tnguitarist Fri, May 7, 2010 8:47:45pm |
I have a job interview tomorrow. Wish me luck.
| 146 |
reine.de.tout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:48:08pm |
re: #140 ausador
It is much, much more complicated than that, it is so cold down there that the oil will partially solidify and block up the pipe on the way up. They will be pumping warm water mixed with methanol down and then sucking up the mixture. (why the “dome” had all those nipples sticking out of it at odd angles) When it gets to the surface they have to separate the methanol and water from the oil, along with venting off and burning the natural gas that comes up.
It is an engineers nightmare to have to come up with a system to do that in only a few weeks and then pray it works. Because you can be damn sure your name will make it into the news if it fails and your engineering career will be over.
I’m just praying it doesn’t blow up. That’s a possibility, as well. I hope all the guys working out there on this right now stay safe and well.
| 147 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:48:23pm |
| 149 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 8:49:32pm |
re: #143 jamesfirecat
Put into office by a Total Recall I might add!
I actually have one of those t-shirts.
| 150 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, May 7, 2010 8:49:36pm |
re: #96 reine.de.tout
Here’s a photo of the thang being lowered into the water.
Jeez, you can see the oil smearing on it as it goes in.
Go, container, go! Cap that spill!! America is rooting for you!!
| 151 |
SteveC Fri, May 7, 2010 8:49:43pm |
Crisis averted. No sheep were harmed in the averting of this crisis.
| 152 |
sagehen Fri, May 7, 2010 8:50:54pm |
re: #79 Floral Giraffe
But, he will ALWAYS remain Governor Moonbeam!
Such a great name. Too bad Arnold never got a good one.
you don’t like the governator?
| 153 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 8:50:56pm |
| 154 |
reine.de.tout Fri, May 7, 2010 8:51:20pm |
| 155 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:52:05pm |
re: #148 SpaceJesus
ouch
[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com…]
“Who do you think you are”?
“Mom, I’m Jesus Christ”!!
-Bill Cosby
| 156 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 8:53:49pm |
re: #145 tnguitarist
I have a job interview tomorrow. Wish me luck.
BEST of luck! Go to bed early. Be early and prepared for your interview!
BEST of luck! ( I hope it’s a good job!)
| 157 |
sagehen Fri, May 7, 2010 8:53:59pm |
re: #81 jvic
2. What party controlled the CA legislature during the ‘Schwarzenegger budget nightmare’? Just askin’…
.
The minority party, of course.
Because California needs 2/3 to pass a budget or to raise taxes (more than the senate needs to end a filibuster).
So if the majority has 65%, that one last vote is priceless.
| 158 |
SteveC Fri, May 7, 2010 8:54:27pm |
re: #155 Cannadian Club Akbar
“Who do you think you are”?
“Mom, I’m Jesus Christ”!!
-Bill Cosby
Well you know who had it tough - Jesus’ brothers and sisters. Can’t you imagine the conversation?
“You need to be more like your brother Jesus.”
“But mom… he’s the Messiah!”
| 159 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 8:54:38pm |
re: #152 sagehen
you don’t like the governator?
He hasn’t been a big success, as far as I can tell….
| 160 |
jvic Fri, May 7, 2010 8:54:56pm |
re: #140 ausador
It is an engineers nightmare to have to come up with a system to do that in only a few weeks and then pray it works. Because you can be damn sure your name will make it into the news if it fails and your engineering career will be over.
Godspeed to them. We do not value them enough.
*** *** ***
The Sons of Martha
Rudyard Kipling 1907
The sons of Mary seldom bother, for they have inherited that good part;
But the Sons of Martha favour their Mother of the careful soul and the troubled heart.
And because she lost her temper once, and because she was rude to the Lord her Guest,
Her Sons must wait upon Mary’s Sons, world without end, reprieve, or rest.
It is their care in all the ages to take the buffet and cushion the shock.
It is their care that the gear engages; it is their care that the switches lock.
It is their care that the wheels run truly; it is their care to embark and entrain,
Tally, transport, and deliver duly the Sons of Mary by land and main.
They say to mountains, “Be ye removed.” They say to the lesser floods, “Be dry.”
Under their rods are the rocks reproved-they are not afraid of that which is high.
Then do the hill-tops shake to the summit-then is the bed of the deep laid bare,
That the Sons of Mary may overcome it, pleasantly sleeping and unaware.
They finger death at their gloves’ end where they piece and repiece the living wires.
He rears against the gates they tend: they feed him hungry behind their fires.
Early at dawn, ere men see clear, they stumble into his terrible stall,
And hale him forth a haltered steer, and goad and turn him till evenfall.
To these from birth is Belief forbidden; from these till death is Relief afar.-
They are concerned with matters hidden – under the earthline their altars are
The secret fountains to follow up, waters withdrawn to restore to the mouth,-
And gather the floods as in a cup, and pour them again at a city’s drouth.
They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose.
They do not teach that His Pity allows them to drop their job when they dam’-well choose.
As in the thronged and the lighted ways, so in the dark and the desert they stand,
Wary and watchful all their days that their brethren’s day may be long in the land.
Raise ye the stone or cleave the wood to make a path more fair or flat –
Lo, it is black already with blood some Son of Martha spilled for that!
Not as a ladder from earth to Heaven, not as a witness to any creed,
But simple service simply given to his own kind in their common need.
And the Sons of Mary smile and are blessed – they know the Angels are on their side.
They know in them is the Grace confessed, and for them are the Mercies multiplied.
They sit at the Feet – they hear the Word – they see how truly the Promise runs.
They have cast their burden upon the Lord, and – the Lord He lays it on Martha’s Sons!
| 161 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, May 7, 2010 8:55:32pm |
Good grief. I don’t care for Carly, to put it mildly (destroyed DEC & Compaq, and missed destroying Lucent & HP “by that much”) but this is just …
the only thing I can thing to compare it to is pure sugar (not even corn) moonshine made with a car radiator for the cooling coil - leftover antifreeze & lead solder! Yum!
I think it’s time to put on a Blue Oyster Cult album & turn it up as loud as my headphones can handle.
William
| 163 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, May 7, 2010 8:56:49pm |
re: #143 jamesfirecat
Put into office by a Total Recall I might add!
All the stations starting running his old movies when he won. I flipped on the TV. Arnold declaring victory. Arnold on the news. Arnold as the Terminator. Arnold doing something else. He’s on every channel!!!
| 164 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 8:56:49pm |
| 165 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 8:56:59pm |
The Blackhawks are hammering the Canucks. Up 6-3 with less than 10 minutes remaining in the game. Hold the line, Hawks! This Year is Next Year!
| 166 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 8:57:07pm |
| 167 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, May 7, 2010 8:57:20pm |
re: #139 Cannadian Club Akbar
Don’t remember. Kid was young. Dad was a douche.
[Link: luolsdong.blogspot.com…]
| 168 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, May 7, 2010 8:57:44pm |
re: #151 SteveC
Crisis averted. No sheep were harmed in the averting of this crisis.
What about Californians?
| 169 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 8:58:42pm |
re: #161 wlewisiii
Good grief. I don’t care for Carly, to put it mildly (destroyed DEC & Compaq, and missed destroying Lucent & HP “by that much”) but this is just …
the only thing I can thing to compare it to is pure sugar (not even corn) moonshine made with a car radiator for the cooling coil - leftover antifreeze & lead solder! Yum!
I think it’s time to put on a Blue Oyster Cult album & turn it up as loud as my headphones can handle.
William
I’m sick of cowbell. Let’s try something else.
| 170 |
SteveC Fri, May 7, 2010 8:59:22pm |
re: #161 wlewisiii
the only thing I can thing to compare it to is pure sugar (not even corn) moonshine made with a car radiator for the cooling coil - leftover antifreeze & lead solder! Yum!
Dizzy and Daffy Dean were on the train with the rest of the St. Louis Cardinals when the train stopped to take on water and coal. Daffy walked around to the back of the station and found an enterprising you man who sold him some ‘shine!
Back on the train, Dazzy pulled it out and offered it to his brother. After his brother refused Dazzy took a long pull from the bottle. At that instant the train entered a tunnel.
“Diz, don’t drink this stuff,” he said. “It done made me blind!”
| 171 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 9:01:33pm |
| 172 |
sagehen Fri, May 7, 2010 9:01:44pm |
re: #159 Floral Giraffe
He hasn’t been a big success, as far as I can tell…
I meant the name, not the job performance. I kinda like the name.
As for my view of his job performance… people in glass NY’s can’t throw stones.
| 173 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 9:02:35pm |
re: #154 reine.de.tout
How’s your job search going, DF?
One not so good interview, but two good in-person ones and a great phone interview, with two more phone interviews on Monday. I also got some online assessments, at least one of which actually checked my references. Naturally, my reference gave me a glowing referral. That helps.
| 174 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 9:02:39pm |
| 175 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 9:07:06pm |
re: #174 Cannadian Club Akbar
But the kid got hit with a VOP. He did time.
Gamboa, wondering how he’s doing. Man that photo of them swinging on him is awful.
| 176 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 9:08:19pm |
re: #173 Dark_Falcon
Saw an ad on Craig’s List today. Said “Don’t apply if” about 4 times. Guessing I wouldn’t.
| 177 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 9:09:47pm |
re: #175 Stanley Sea
Gamboa, wondering how he’s doing. Man that photo of them swinging on him is awful.
I thought it was an Ump. Was the first base coach. If a fan goes on the field, fair game. Same if a player goes into the stands.
| 178 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 9:12:19pm |
For those curious, here’s the father & son beatdown.
| 180 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 9:14:02pm |
re: #165 Dark_Falcon
The Blackhawks are hammering the Canucks.
Wait a second? We are at war with Canada now? Why didn’t anyone tell me?
Christ I knew I should have bought more shares in Sikorsky…
/
| 181 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 9:14:29pm |
re: #178 Stanley Sea
For those curious, here’s the father & son beatdown.
They look like they should be running a meth lab.
| 182 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 9:14:36pm |
re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar
Saw an ad on Craig’s List today. Said “Don’t apply if” about 4 times. Guessing I wouldn’t.
| 183 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, May 7, 2010 9:15:16pm |
re: #180 ausador
Wait a second? We are at war with Canada now? Why didn’t anyone tell me?
Christ I knew I should have bought more shares in Sikorsky…/
The Blackhawks have beaten the Canucks.
| 184 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 9:15:18pm |
And the Blackhawks win 7-4! Game 5 in Sunday night. Go Hawks!
| 185 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 9:16:56pm |
Good evening Lizards!
What an odd week.
Wall Street had this…thing…happen. I’m still convinced it was a hack or a crack. Accenture for a penny? Really? Really?!?!?!?
The Conservatives in England showed what the R’s in the US need to do to win a National election. Think they’ll listen?
Me neither.
And there is this other…thing…in the Gulf that is either the Worst Thing Evah! or the Worst Thing Nevah!
Wonder how that happened? Two and a half weeks and nobody is saying how or why it kicked that hard. Odd.
How is everyone tonight?
| 186 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, May 7, 2010 9:17:35pm |
re: #182 laZardo
I sold a table on CL. Guy sent an email asking me to send it, he was out of town. Then I could see his secretary and get the D’oh! I emailed back and said, “If you can afford a secretary, tell her to bring a check”. Never heard from him again.
| 187 |
goddamnedfrank Fri, May 7, 2010 9:20:40pm |
This Demon Sheep trilogy is pretty cool I guess, but it’s basically just a long, drawn out remake of The Shearing, a Hollywood classic which starred Gregory Peck as Little Bo Peep.
| 188 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, May 7, 2010 9:24:07pm |
re: #169 laZardo
I’m sick of cowbell. Let’s try something else.
[Video]
Most excellent! Here’s another great one from them:
William
| 189 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 9:24:07pm |
re: #185 austin_blue
The Conservatives in England showed what the R’s in the US need to do to win a National election. Think they’ll listen?
I don’t think so. Lots of people agree that the UK election was a lesson for the GOP, but liberals and conservatives disagree on what the lesson was.
| 190 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 9:24:34pm |
re: #185 austin_blue
Good evening Lizards!
What an odd week.
Wall Street had this…thing…happen. I’m still convinced it was a hack or a crack. Accenture for a penny? Really? Really?!?!?!?
The Conservatives in England showed what the R’s in the US need to do to win a National election. Think they’ll listen?
Me neither.
And there is this other…thing…in the Gulf that is either the Worst Thing Evah! or the Worst Thing Nevah!
Wonder how that happened? Two and a half weeks and nobody is saying how or why it kicked that hard. Odd.
How is everyone tonight?
They are circulating some “informed” theories already based on survivors testimony…a big methane ‘slug.’
/we all really know it was a North Korean suicide mini-sub already, don’t we?)
| 191 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 9:24:51pm |
re: #185 austin_blue
Good evening Lizards!
What an odd week.
Wall Street had this…thing…happen. I’m still convinced it was a hack or a crack. Accenture for a penny? Really? Really?!?!?!?
The Conservatives in England showed what the R’s in the US need to do to win a National election. Think they’ll listen?
Me neither.
And there is this other…thing…in the Gulf that is either the Worst Thing Evah! or the Worst Thing Nevah!
Wonder how that happened? Two and a half weeks and nobody is saying how or why it kicked that hard. Odd.
How is everyone tonight?
Thanks for the Gulf updates!
Just one quibble, the Conservatives [sic] didn’t win, it is a hung Parliament. The lesson for the Republicans is to not do what Cameron did, that he could not pull off a majority with everything, including the media on his side and history’s most unpopular Prime Minister is a tremendous blow to his re-branding efforts and a major failure.
| 192 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 9:25:44pm |
re: #189 Nimed
I don’t think so. Lots of people agree that the UK election was a lesson for the GOP, but liberals and conservatives disagree on what the lesson was.
Hey, stop reading my mind and preempting my posts!
| 193 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 9:26:11pm |
re: #185 austin_blue
The Conservatives in England showed what the R’s in the US need to do to win a National election.
Blame everything on Nick Clegg?
| 194 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 9:26:20pm |
re: #189 Nimed
I don’t think so. Lots of people agree that the UK election was a lesson for the GOP, but liberals and conservatives disagree on what the lesson was.
What do you think the lesson was?
| 195 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 9:27:11pm |
re: #190 ausador
They are circulating some “informed” theories already based on survivors testimony…a big methane ‘slug.’
/we all really know it was a North Korean suicide mini-sub already, don’t we?)
After cementing the production casing? Um…odd.
| 196 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 9:28:20pm |
re: #194 Dark_Falcon
What do you think the lesson was?
Oh I know!
Hurl the so cons under a bus and come out in favor of gay marriage and abortion?
| 197 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 9:29:04pm |
re: #191 Bagua
Thanks for the Gulf updates!
Just one quibble, the Conservatives [sic] didn’t win, it is a hung Parliament. The lesson for the Republicans is to not do what Cameron did, that he could not pull off a majority with everything, including the media on his side and history’s most unpopular Prime Minister is a tremendous blow to his re-branding efforts and a major failure.
Bagua;
They kicked Labor’s ass. And Cameron gets first crack at Clegg to set up a government. The BNP, meanwhile, was booed off the street. Good.
| 198 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 9:30:11pm |
re: #191 Bagua
Thanks for the Gulf updates!
Just one quibble, the Conservatives [sic] didn’t win, it is a hung Parliament. The lesson for the Republicans is to not do what Cameron did, that he could not pull off a majority with everything, including the media on his side and history’s most unpopular Prime Minister is a tremendous blow to his re-branding efforts and a major failure.
What do you think he did wrong?
| 199 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 9:31:24pm |
re: #196 jamesfirecat
Oh I know!
Hurl the so cons under a bus and come out in favor of gay marriage and abortion?
And make up for their votes how? The socons are far more numerous here.
| 200 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 9:31:42pm |
re: #191 Bagua
Thanks for the Gulf updates!
Just one quibble, the Conservatives [sic] didn’t win, it is a hung Parliament. The lesson for the Republicans is to not do what Cameron did, that he could not pull off a majority with everything, including the media on his side and history’s most unpopular Prime Minister is a tremendous blow to his re-branding efforts and a major failure.
Besides which the “conservatives” ran on cutting the debt and reducing government handouts, makes it hard to win a majority over there, even more so here… :p
| 201 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, May 7, 2010 9:32:19pm |
| 202 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 9:33:29pm |
re: #199 Dark_Falcon
And make up for their votes how? The socons are far more numerous here.
Sane people?
Sorry, I was making a joke based on the fact that hurling the so cons under a bus (or should I say “lorry” is something the conservatives in the UK have done, and they seem to be doing well enough at the moment….
| 203 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 9:34:08pm |
re: #197 austin_blue
Bagua;
They kicked Labor’s ass. And Cameron gets first crack at Clegg to set up a government. The BNP, meanwhile, was booed off the street. Good.
Not at all, it is the first hung Parliament since 1974, and unusual event in British politics (though quite normal on the continent). That Cameron was unable to get an overall majority is an incredible setback for the Boy. All the stars were aligned for a decisive majority for the Torry party and yet it was the ABC* vote which decided it.
*Anyone but Cameron
| 204 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 9:34:32pm |
re: #194 Dark_Falcon
What do you think the lesson was?
The Labour party will make a coalition government odds are, they do get the first chance in the event of a “hung parliment.”
Not sure anything at all has really changed regardless of all the tremendous hype.
| 205 |
cenotaphium Fri, May 7, 2010 9:35:43pm |
re: #197 austin_blue
They kicked Labor’s ass. And Cameron gets first crack at Clegg to set up a government. The BNP, meanwhile, was booed off the street. Good.
I’m very encouraged by the lack of support the BNP got. For all the bluster, internet comment bombarding and wailing about their inclusion or exclusion from debates, it really didn’t amount to much.
Hopefully that will turn out to be the case for the Sweden Democrats - our local looney tunes up for election this fall.
| 206 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 9:35:54pm |
re: #200 ausador
Besides which the “conservatives” ran on cutting the debt and reducing government handouts, makes it hard to win a majority over there, even more so here… :p
No doubt, Labour has pulled out all the stops over their reign to create a large block of new voters firmly on the Govs teat. This is a powerful advantage to be sure.
| 207 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 9:37:25pm |
re: #205 cenotaphium
I’m very encouraged by the lack of support the BNP got. For all the bluster, internet comment bombarding and wailing about their inclusion or exclusion from debates, it really didn’t amount to much.
Hopefully that will turn out to be the case for the Sweden Democrats - our local looney tunes up for election this fall.
The BNP is largely irrelevant and always has been. The big news was the UKIP effect, which almost certainly cost Cameron the election.
| 208 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 9:38:23pm |
re: #194 Dark_Falcon
What do you think the lesson was?
Well, being a liberal myself, it’s tempting to conclude that the lesson is the GOP should moderate their positions and shun Limbaugh & Co. to attract centrists and independents. And it’s true this was Cameron’s strategy in some issues.
But I just don’t the believe the dynamics of the UK election (or other European elections, for that matter) are very transposable. Republicans are up for a major victory in November. From a purely electoral perspective, they should probably glue themselves to the Tea Party movement as much as they can and try to reach a deal on Finance Reform as quickly as possible (this is not a good battle for the GOP).
| 209 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 9:39:14pm |
re: #193 laZardo
Blame everything on Nick Clegg?
Clegg was the turd in the punchbowl for both Labor and the Tories. The LDs didn’t get enough votes to gain seats (they lost four, I think), but they got enough to hang the Parliament and force the formation of a coalition government. By the way, odd how you can get 23% of the vote and only 9% of the seats in the Commons.
| 210 |
jaunte Fri, May 7, 2010 9:40:06pm |
The Utter Failure of the British National Party
The BBC says that they’ve lost 22 seats so far.
| 211 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 9:40:29pm |
re: #202 jamesfirecat
Sane people?
Sorry, I was making a joke based on the fact that hurling the so cons under a bus (or should I say “lorry” is something the conservatives in the UK have done, and they seem to be doing well enough at the moment…
That’s the UK. Like I said, socons are far more numerous here. They cannot simply be cast aside, several house seats would go with them.
| 212 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 9:40:58pm |
re: #196 jamesfirecat
Oh I know!
Hurl the so cons under a bus and come out in favor of gay marriage and abortion?
Got ‘em 46% of the Commons.
| 213 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 9:41:42pm |
re: #198 Dark_Falcon
What do you think he did wrong?
One word, Referendum. He betrayed his promise to hold a referendum on the EU Constitution Lisbon Treaty. This cost him the election. Plain and simple.
Yes, he did many other little things to create the not-Conservative party, but all else pales in the balance. This is likely the best result for the Conservatives if it results in Cameron being replaced and a new election within the year once whatever unstable government that emerges collapses.
| 214 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 9:42:01pm |
re: #209 austin_blue
Clegg was the turd in the punchbowl for both Labor and the Tories. The LDs didn’t get enough votes to gain seats (they lost four, I think), but they got enough to hang the Parliament and force the formation of a coalition government. By the way, odd how you can get 23% of the vote and only 9% of the seats in the Commons.
Well, now we know where the Americans got it from.
/rimshot
| 215 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 9:42:17pm |
re: #209 austin_blue
Clegg was the turd in the punchbowl for both Labor and the Tories. The LDs didn’t get enough votes to gain seats (they lost four, I think), but they got enough to hang the Parliament and force the formation of a coalition government. By the way, odd how you can get 23% of the vote and only 9% of the seats in the Commons.
The UK votes by district, like we do. So the nationwide totals matter less than which Parliamentary districts you actually had a majority in.
| 216 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 9:43:38pm |
Ah..this is an awesome find for me
| 217 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 9:44:20pm |
re: #200 ausador
Besides which the “conservatives” ran on cutting the debt and reducing government handouts, makes it hard to win a majority over there, even more so here… :p
But it was a kinder, gentler, more egalitarian Tory manifesto. Granted that the specifics of the cuts were fuzzier than hell, but that was part of the deal. it was a huge increase in vote count for them (more than 2 million nationwide).
| 218 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 9:44:22pm |
re: #213 Bagua
One word, Referendum. He betrayed his promise to hold a referendum on the EU
ConstitutionLisbon Treaty. This cost him the election. Plain and simple.Yes, he did many other little things to create the not-Conservative party, but all else pales in the balance. This is likely the best result for the Conservatives if it results in Cameron being replaced and a new election within the year once whatever unstable government that emerges collapses.
Well, that was foolish move. Britain should hold a referendum and reject the Lisbon treaty. They should not want to be part of an EU federal structure. The EU may come apart at the seams, joining it more closely now would be a fool’s action.
| 220 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 9:44:38pm |
re: #212 austin_blue
Got ‘em 46% of the Commons.
I think right now the GOP has less than 41% of the House of Representatives so it sounds like they can only go up from here!
| 221 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 9:45:51pm |
re: #205 cenotaphium
I’m very encouraged by the lack of support the BNP got. For all the bluster, internet comment bombarding and wailing about their inclusion or exclusion from debates, it really didn’t amount to much.
Hopefully that will turn out to be the case for the Sweden Democrats - our local looney tunes up for election this fall.
In the end sanity rules in Democracies. As long as you can keep one.
| 222 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 9:46:21pm |
re: #219 Cannadian Club Akbar
Great solo, huh?
Ben Orr never got the credit he deserved imo. rip 2000
| 223 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 9:46:42pm |
re: #209 austin_blue
Clegg was the turd in the punchbowl for both Labor and the Tories. The LDs didn’t get enough votes to gain seats (they lost four, I think), but they got enough to hang the Parliament and force the formation of a coalition government. By the way, odd how you can get 23% of the vote and only 9% of the seats in the Commons.
Odd doesn’t half describe the circus but it is a very good start. The Dim Libs are always a factor, but were way over-rated by the pundits. Their votes would go to Labour if not them. It will be risible to see what deal Brown makes with them to cling to power, likely the thing you regard as odd is exactly what they will demand, proportionate representation.
The BNP likely stole away some votes from Labour, but not enough to make any difference.
| 224 |
Lidane Fri, May 7, 2010 9:48:01pm |
re: #7 Floral Giraffe
I miss Hunter Thompson, the ONLY journalist that could interpret this well.
I missed him so much during the 2008 election that it hurt. God, I would have loved to read his take on all of it, especially Sarah Palin.
For that matter, imagine if he’d been sent to go and cover the Tea Parties. That would have been awesome.
| 225 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 9:50:14pm |
re: #210 jaunte
The Utter Failure of the British National Party
The BBC says that they’ve lost 22 seats so far.
YEEEHHHH!
/sorry, was an inappropriate level of gloating?
/
| 226 |
jamesfirecat Fri, May 7, 2010 9:51:14pm |
re: #225 ausador
YEEEHHH!
/sorry, was an inappropriate level of gloating?
/
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from all the Wolfenstine Sequals its that there is no inappropriate level of gloating when it comes to celebrating nazi/neo nazi failure….
| 228 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 9:51:56pm |
re: #215 Dark_Falcon
The UK votes by district, like we do. So the nationwide totals matter less than which Parliamentary districts you actually had a majority in.
Good point. But it was enough to keep Tories from an outright victory. Note that the Tories didn’t do very well in a large swath of the UK. Labor generally kept their strongholds. Only one Tory rep from Scotland for instance.
| 229 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 9:54:55pm |
re: #218 Dark_Falcon
Well, that was foolish move. Britain should hold a referendum and reject the Lisbon treaty. They should not want to be part of an EU federal structure. The EU may come apart at the seams, joining it more closely now would be a fool’s action.
Yep, denying the voters a vote on a drastic change to their government is a major violation of trust. Cameron is beneath contempt and his re-branding is risible. Thus the ABC vote which cost him the election.
There is not a hairs difference between the agendas of the three major parties on anything of consequence, the entire election is was no more than a farce. The real government is in Brussels, what’s left is a circus of personality politics and pap where they all ignore the elephant in the room and play make believe.
As I said before, this result is actually the best result given the situation. Had Cameron won, it would have sunk the Tories in the long run. Now the hope is that Cameron will resign or be forced aside and someone of merit will take his place in the next election.
| 230 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 9:55:14pm |
re: #228 austin_blue
Good point. But it was enough to keep Tories from an outright victory. Note that the Tories didn’t do very well in a large swath of the UK. Labor generally kept their strongholds. Only one Tory rep from Scotland for instance.
No real way for the Tories to win in Scotland. They want to put brakes on the growth of the state, and the population up there relies on government aid to a great degree. To win Scottish seats, the conservatives would have to discard conservatism entirely and they will not do that.
| 231 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 9:55:29pm |
re: #224 Lidane
LOL! Can you imagine what he would have said about Sarah?
Makes me laugh, to try to imagine it!
Cato does try, though…
| 232 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 9:56:18pm |
re: #225 ausador
YEEEHHH!
/sorry, was an inappropriate level of gloating?
/
Not a bit. In fact, too mild. Unwind the H&K and deposit 30 rounds of 7.62 hail into the sky.
//Kidding. That would be wrong
| 233 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 9:56:29pm |
So…anyone (else) paying attention to the upcoming elections over here?
| 234 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 9:56:59pm |
re: #229 Bagua
Yep, denying the voters a vote on a drastic change to their government is a major violation of trust. Cameron is beneath contempt and his re-branding is risible. Thus the ABC vote which cost him the election.
There is not a hairs difference between the agendas of the three major parties on anything of consequence, the entire election is was no more than a farce. The real government is in Brussels, what’s left is a circus of personality politics and pap where they all ignore the elephant in the room and play make believe.
As I said before, this result is actually the best result given the situation. Had Cameron won, it would have sunk the Tories in the long run. Now the hope is that Cameron will resign or be forced aside and someone of merit will take his place in the next election.
I hope you’re right, and I hope the treaty gets sunk.
| 235 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:00:24pm |
re: #228 austin_blue
Good point. But it was enough to keep Tories from an outright victory. Note that the Tories didn’t do very well in a large swath of the UK. Labor generally kept their strongholds. Only one Tory rep from Scotland for instance.
Of course, the Tory Party is an English party, they were never going to get much of a vote from Scotland nor did they expect to. What sunk their boat was the UKIP which pulled away just enough votes to cost Cameron the outright majority, mostly in the West Country. Had Cameron agreed a referendum as promised, the UKIP would have stepped aside and Cameron would have picked up at least 15 seats, enough for a majority.
| 236 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 10:00:56pm |
re: #233 laZardo
So…anyone (else) paying attention to the upcoming elections over here?
Nate is.
He was dead solid perfect in 2008.
[Link: www.fivethirtyeight.com…]
| 238 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 10:01:43pm |
If I am wrong please correct me but I thought the procedure now was that the Queen would ask the sitting Prime Minister (Labour) to attempt to form a coalition majority. Seems to me that the Labour Party would have an easier time with that with the Liberal Democrats than the Conservatives would.
So aren’t we most likely going to see another Labour government with the only difference being that they have to send some money, jobs, and patronage towards the Lib/Dems now?
| 239 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:02:19pm |
re: #225 ausador
YEEEHHH!
/sorry, was an inappropriate level of gloating?
/
They were never more than a side-show. We notice them, but no one else does.
| 240 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 10:02:36pm |
re: #235 Bagua
Of course, the Tory Party is an English party, they were never going to get much of a vote from Scotland nor did they expect to. What sunk their boat was the UKIP which pulled away just enough votes to cost Cameron the outright majority, mostly in the West Country. Had Cameron agreed a referendum as promised, the UKIP would have stepped aside and Cameron would have picked up at least 15 seats, enough for a majority.
That’s a tweak I haven’t read. How solid is that? Are there some solid numbers on that?
| 241 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:06:08pm |
re: #238 ausador
If I am wrong please correct me but I thought the procedure now was that the Queen would ask the sitting Prime Minister (Labour) to attempt to form a coalition majority. Seems to me that the Labour Party would have an easier time with that with the Liberal Democrats than the Conservatives would.
So aren’t we most likely going to see another Labour government with the only difference being that they have to send some money, jobs, and patronage towards the Lib/Dems now?
Yep, you got it. No way the Dim Libs will agree anything with the not-Conservatives, though they will put on a show of it for the media. Brown will cling to power with a deal with the Lib Dems, likely an unstable government that will collapse within the year. Alternatively, he will call a new election in the Autumn and hang on as a caretaker.
| 242 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 10:09:14pm |
re: #241 Bagua
Yep, you got it. No way the Dim Libs will agree anything with the not-Conservatives, though they will put on a show of it for the media. Brown will cling to power with a deal with the Lib Dems, likely an unstable government that will collapse within the year. Alternatively, he will call a new election in the Autumn and hang on as a caretaker.
I’d like that: A do-over with a Conservative party committed to the UK with fiscal discipline and opposition to the Lisbon treaty. I think that would be a good thing.
| 243 |
laZardo Fri, May 7, 2010 10:09:55pm |
re: #236 austin_blue
Nate is.
He was dead solid perfect in 2008.
[Link: www.fivethirtyeight.com…]
I didn’t notice Nate was following the Philippines. >_>
| 244 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:11:10pm |
re: #240 austin_blue
That’s a tweak I haven’t read. How solid is that? Are there some solid numbers on that?
Sure:
1. Birmingham Edgbaston: Lab 16,894, Con 15,620 – majority 1,274. BNP 1,196 and UKIP 732 (total 1,928).
2. Bolton West: Lab 18,327, Con 18,235 – majority 1,901. UKIP 1,901.
3. Derby North: Lab 14,896, Con 14,283 – majority 613. UKIP 829 and BNP 2,000 (total 2,829).
4. Derbyshire North East: Lab 17,948, Con 15,503 – majority 2,445. UKIP 2,636.
5. Dorset Mid & Poole North: Lib-Dims 21,100, Con 20,831 - majority 269. UKIP 2,109.
6. Dudley North: Lab 14,923, Con 14,274 – majority 649. UKIP 3,267 and BNP 1,899 (total 5,166).
7. Gedling: Lab 19821, Con 17,962 – majority 1,859. UKIP 1,459 and BNP 1,598 (total 3,057).
8. Great Grimsby: Lab 10,777, Con 10, 063 – majority 714. UKIP 2,043 and BNP 1,517 (total 3,560).
9. Halifax: Lab 16,278, Con 14,806 – majority 1,472. BNP 2,760 and UKIP 654 (total 3,414).
10. Hampstead & Kilburn: Lab 17,332, Con 17, 290 – majority 42. UKIP 408 and BNP 328 (total 736).
11. Hyndburn: Lab 17,531, Con 14,441 – majority 3,090. UKIP 1,481 and BNP 2,137 (3,618).
12. Middlesborough South & Cleveland East: Lab 18,138, Con 16,461 – majority 1,677. UKIP 1,881 and BNP 1,576 (total 3,457).
13. Morley and Outwood: Lab 18,365, Con 17,264 – majority 1,101. UKIP 1,506 and BNP 3,535 (total 5,041).
14. Newcastle-under-Lyme: Lab 16,393, Con 14,841 – majority 1,551. UKIP 3,491.
15. Nottingham South: Lab 15,209, Con 13,437 - majority 1,772. BNP 1,140 and UKIP 967 (total 2,107).
16. Penistone & Stocksbridge: Lab: 17,565m Con 14,516 – majority 3,049. UKIP 1,936 and BNP 2,207 (total 4,143).
17. Plymouth Moor View: Lab 15,433, Con 13,845 - majority 1,588. UKIP 3,188 and BNP 1,438 (total 4,626).
18. St Austell & Newquay: Lib-Dim 20,189, Con 18,877 - majority 1,312. UKIP 1,757 and BNP 1,022 (total 2,779)
19. St Ives: Lib-Dims 19,619, Con 17,900 - majority 1,719. UKIP 2,560.
20. S****horpe: Lab 14,640, Con 12,091 – majority 2,549. UKIP 1,686 and BNP 1,447 (total 3,183).
21. Solihull: Lib-Dim 23,635, Con 23,460 – majority 175. UKIP 1,200 and BNP 1624 (total 2,824).
22. Somerton & Frome: Lib-Dims 28,793, Con 26,976 - majority 1,817. UKIP 1,932 and Leave-the-EU Alliance 236 (total 2,168).
23. Southampton Itchen: Lab 16,326, Con 16,134 - majority 192. UKIP 1,928.
24. Sutton & Cheam: Lib-Dims 22,156, Con 20,548 – majority 1,608. BNP 1,014 and UKIP 950 (total 1,964).
25. Telford: Lab 15,977, Con 14,996 – majority 981. UKIP 2,428 and BNP 1,513 (3,941).
26. Walsall North: Lab 13,385, Con 12,395 – majority 990. BNP 2,930 and UKIP 1,737 (4,667).
27. Walsall South: Lab 16,211, Con 14,456 – majority 1,755. UKIP 3,449.
28. Wells: Lib-Dims 24,560, Con 23,760 - majority 800. UKIP 1,711 and BNP 1,004 (total 2,815).
29. Wirral South: Lab 16,276, Con 15,745 – majority 531. UKIP 1,274.
30. Wolverhampton North East: Lab 14,448, Con 11,964 – majority 2,484. UKIP 1,138 and BNP 2,296 (total 3,434).
That is 30, twice the 15 that the UKIP itself estimatesMail estimates.
Note that the UKIP offered to step aside if Cameron promised a referendum, the bulk of those votes would have gone to the Tories.
| 245 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 10:13:58pm |
re: #242 Dark_Falcon
I’d like that: A do-over with a Conservative party committed to the UK with fiscal discipline and opposition to the Lisbon treaty. I think that would be a good thing.
From a purely selfish perspective, we want an European Union as enlarged and integrated as possible. The UK should not rescind the Lisbon Treaty.
| 246 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:15:28pm |
re: #245 Nimed
From a purely selfish perspective, we want an European Union as enlarged and integrated as possible. The UK should not rescind the Lisbon Treaty.
Who is this “we” paleface?
| 247 |
dadaist Fri, May 7, 2010 10:16:37pm |
I am lodging an official complaint against Britain because they are cheating.
Their Conservatives haven’t gone bug-fucking nuts and are tracking to the centre in a completely unreasonable effort to gain middle-ground support instead of concentrating on lynching moderates. And their Liberal Democrats don’t have any giant papier-mache heads on sticks at all.
Hasn’t anybody told those tea drinking bastards what politics are supposed to be about? The only solution is to invade their limey asses.
| 248 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 10:16:42pm |
| 249 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 10:16:56pm |
| 250 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:17:25pm |
| 251 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 10:19:47pm |
re: #238 ausador
If I am wrong please correct me but I thought the procedure now was that the Queen would ask the sitting Prime Minister (Labour) to attempt to form a coalition majority. Seems to me that the Labour Party would have an easier time with that with the Liberal Democrats than the Conservatives would.
So aren’t we most likely going to see another Labour government with the only difference being that they have to send some money, jobs, and patronage towards the Lib/Dems now?
Maybe. The Queen can call out either side as I understand it. Her prerogative. But either way, Clegg is going to get 20% of the Ministries. He won’t the MOD or the Foreign Office, but he may very well get Exchequer. In any case, the LDs get Ministerial experience and future gravitas.
| 252 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 10:20:46pm |
re: #250 Bagua
{Floral Giraffe}
And me? My Friday night? Listening all this time to the old Cars songs & vids.
Yeah!
| 253 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, May 7, 2010 10:20:52pm |
re: #250 Bagua
Are we supposed to be fighting about something?
I forget.
Tacky you tube!
LOL!
| 254 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:21:55pm |
re: #248 Nimed
By “we” I mean the U.S.
You are probably right there, for simplistic reasons though. Less people to talk to, less complex diplomacy. But the end result is most certainly a weaker Britain and a toothless EU that will most certainly not be the partner to the US that Britain has been.
This will mean the eventual end of the Anglosphere and the US will be going it alone in future conflicts. The EU was set up to compete with US power, not ally with it.
| 255 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:23:50pm |
re: #252 Stanley Sea
And me? My Friday night? Listening all this time to the old Cars songs & vids.
Yeah!
Ha, the Cars, that’s a blast from the past. I booked a key part of a show for them back in the day, when the world was young and death was but a dream. (About 32 years ago that)
| 257 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 10:25:10pm |
re: #255 Bagua
Ha, the Cars, that’s a blast from the past. I booked a key part of a show for them back in the day, when the world was young and death was but a dream. (About 32 years ago that)
Get out!
Yeah, forever ago, but it was a sweet time!!
| 258 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 10:25:12pm |
re: #254 Bagua
You are probably right there, for simplistic reasons though. Less people to talk to, less complex diplomacy. But the end result is most certainly a weaker Britain and a toothless EU that will most certainly not be the partner to the US that Britain has been.
This will mean the eventual end of the Anglosphere and the US will be going it alone in future conflicts. The EU was set up to compete with US power, not ally with it.
The reasons you cited are why we should oppose the EU. If that makes diplomacy tougher, well, my heart bleeds for the diplomats.
| 259 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:25:26pm |
re: #251 austin_blue
Maybe. The Queen can call out either side as I understand it. Her prerogative. But either way, Clegg is going to get 20% of the Ministries. He won’t the MOD or the Foreign Office, but he may very well get Exchequer. In any case, the LDs get Ministerial experience and future gravitas.
Isn’t it decorum to give the first stab to the sitting PM in this instance of a hung Parliament?
| 260 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 10:28:26pm |
re: #255 Bagua
Ha, the Cars, that’s a blast from the past. I booked a key part of a show for them back in the day, when the world was young and death was but a dream. (About 32 years ago that)
I was only a child when they were in their prime, but their songs are still favorites of mine:
| 261 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 10:30:06pm |
re: #260 Dark_Falcon
I am thrilled that I passed the music on tonight. Love ya DF.
When MTV was mtv. Diane Keaton was one of the directors of the vids.
| 262 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 10:30:36pm |
re: #254 Bagua
You are probably right there, for simplistic reasons though. Less people to talk to, less complex diplomacy. But the end result is most certainly a weaker Britain and a toothless EU that will most certainly not be the partner to the US that Britain has been.
This will mean the eventual end of the Anglosphere and the US will be going it alone in future conflicts. The EU was set up to compete with US power, not ally with it.
Just wait for the inevitable French majority amongst the E.U. magistrates, next thing you know you’ll find that England has unconditionally surrendered to Estonia for the crime of “plundering” their women or something… ;)
| 263 |
bratwurst Fri, May 7, 2010 10:31:47pm |
re: #256 Stanley Sea
Bye bye love. (humor me)
[Video]
I was fortunate enough to meet Greg Hawkes last year before an AMAZING show he did with Todd Rundgren, performing the masterpiece “A Wizard, A True Star”. Really seems like a good guy.
| 264 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 10:32:38pm |
re: #259 Bagua
Isn’t it decorum to give the first stab to the sitting PM in this instance of a hung Parliament?
I don’t think so. She’s the Monarch. If the result had been 40% Tory, 39% LD and 21% labor, she shouldn’t be required to give Labor the first shot.
| 265 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:34:01pm |
re: #257 Stanley Sea
Get out!
Yeah, forever ago, but it was a sweet time!!
No, it’s true. They called up needing a crew and equipment to put on a show and got me on the phone as who they were looking for was unreachable, doing a benefit concert to protest a nuclear plant. I said “Sure, we’ll do it” always being the bold sort, then had to drive a few hours to the dump (literally) were the show was going on and say “Guys, you’ve got another paying show to do this weekend.” Luckily they were free.
Everything fell into place except for one detail, when I got to the actual show after a 2 hour drive my girlfriend couldn’t get in being under 18 at the time, a few months younger than I. Talk about denied!
| 266 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 10:35:48pm |
re: #254 Bagua
You are probably right there, for simplistic reasons though. Less people to talk to, less complex diplomacy. But the end result is most certainly a weaker Britain and a toothless EU that will most certainly not be the partner to the US that Britain has been.
This will mean the eventual end of the Anglosphere and the US will be going it alone in future conflicts. The EU was set up to compete with US power, not ally with it.
I disagree. Both sides of the Atlantic like to overstate their differences in domestic and international politics, but the truth is that most of our interests are common. For instance, American experts in foreign policy across the political spectrum have been pushing the EU to accept Turkey and Ukraine for years. The promise of EU membership has exerted a moderating influence on Turkey more than anything else. Nothing succeeds like success, as they say, and Turkey joining the biggest common market in the world would be a huge step towards the stabilization of the region. It would also partly reduce European dependence on Russian oil and natural gas.
In Geopolitical terms, our great competitors of the future are going to be the developing nations, not the EU. If the China political model continues to be economically successful, this will be a very serious threat to the Western model.
Ok, this second point is, in my opinion, the most important, but lets discuss it bit by bit.
| 267 |
Stanghazi Fri, May 7, 2010 10:40:19pm |
re: #265 Bagua
No, it’s true. They called up needing a crew and equipment to put on a show and got me on the phone as who they were looking for was unreachable, doing a benefit concert to protest a nuclear plant. I said “Sure, we’ll do it” always being the bold sort, then had to drive a few hours to the dump (literally) were the show was going on and say “Guys, you’ve got another paying show to do this weekend.” Luckily they were free.
Everything fell into place except for one detail, when I got to the actual show after a 2 hour drive my girlfriend couldn’t get in being under 18 at the time, a few months younger than I. Talk about denied!
UUGGH. I’m sure she still remembers the denial too. Although back then, rules were schmules. We all had fake ID’s.
I’ve seen a lot of the 80’s punk/new music bands, but never ever The Cars. I loved them. I really cried when Ben Orr died. Makes you feel really old, he died in 2000. Typical music/life experience I guess.
| 268 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 10:41:12pm |
re: #266 Nimed
I disagree. Both sides of the Atlantic like to overstate their differences in domestic and international politics, but the truth is that most of our interests are common. For instance, American experts in foreign policy across the political spectrum have been pushing the EU to accept Turkey and Ukraine for years. The promise of EU membership has exerted a moderating influence on Turkey more than anything else. Nothing succeeds like success, as they say, and Turkey joining the biggest common market in the world would be a huge step towards the stabilization of the region. It would also partly reduce European dependence on Russian oil and natural gas.
In Geopolitical terms, our great competitors of the future are going to be the developing nations, not the EU. If the China political model continues to be economically successful, this will be a very serious threat to the Western model.
Ok, this second point is, in my opinion, the most important, but lets discuss it bit by bit.
Yeah, but tying in to the Euro has been a disaster for the PIGS (Ireland, Portugal, Greece and Spain). The EU should think about bringing weaker economies in as junior partners before full membership.
| 269 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 10:46:16pm |
re: #268 austin_blue
Yeah, but tying in to the Euro has been a disaster for the PIGS (Ireland, Portugal, Greece and Spain). The EU should think about bringing weaker economies in as junior partners before full membership.
Agreed. The euro is in deep trouble over this. If it falls apart, the global financial situation may take a turn for the worse.
| 270 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:47:09pm |
re: #264 austin_blue
I don’t think so. She’s the Monarch. If the result had been 40% Tory, 39% LD and 21% labor, she shouldn’t be required to give Labor the first shot.
Right, more a question of decorum than requirement. The Queen will be kept updated by Christopher Geidt, the Private Secretary to the Sovereign, who will be informed by Sir Gus O’Donnell, the Cabinet Secretary who will send teams of civil servants to negotiate with the parties, and with Jeremy Heywood, the Permanent Secretary at 10 Downing Street.
Meanwhile Gordo will play patriot daring the opposition to topple the government during a financial crisis, but a Labour/Lib Dem government could be voted down. Also there is no love between Gordon Brown and Mr Clegg, so the price of a coalition will be very steep.
Alternatively, the Tories will likely claim the right to at least lead the interim government as they got the most votes. It will all be amusing to watch, but the likely end result is a stitch-up that keeps Brown in power.
| 271 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 10:54:33pm |
re: #268 austin_blue
Yeah, but tying in to the Euro has been a disaster for the PIGS (Ireland, Portugal, Greece and Spain). The EU should think about bringing weaker economies in as junior partners before full membership.
Right, the asymmetrical chocks of a common currency have been pretty huge. But, even the if euro is dissolved, the common market is not going anywhere. Neither the political integration, if we’re lucky.
I’ve mentioned China as the biggest threat because they have effectively separated a market economy from democracy. We don’t know that this isn’t an economically viable political model - so far it has been extremely successful. And successes tend to be imitated, they are already being imitated in East Asia.
Think of the potential consequences of this: 50 years from now, we can have a world in which most economic power is not in the hands of democratically elected governments. Our differences with the Europeans are trivial compared to this - we need an EU who doesn’t punch below their weight. That is not going to happen if they don’t get their shit together and agree on some sort of supranational foreign body with real political power.
| 272 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 10:56:26pm |
re: #268 austin_blue
Yeah, but tying in to the Euro has been a disaster for the PIGS (Ireland, Portugal, Greece and Spain). The EU should think about bringing weaker economies in as junior partners before full membership.
They did it on purpose, all part of the plan to create beneficial crises which are opportunities to call for more EU control. This is how the EU works. Of course monetary union without harmonisation of taxation was always going to create problems down the road. No problem for the EU, they just needed to move the process, which they knew to be flawed, forward.
It is what they do. Create new, but flawed, institutions that give them oversight and create new realities. Once the inevitable problems unfold, the EU can then propose how to “fix” or “reform” the flawed institution they created. At that time, the proposals will always sound reasonable and appropriate. But they will always involve more “Europe”, more EU control, never less and they will never admit they created the conditions for the disaster in the first instance.
It is ingenious and devious, but as it unfolds over numerous decades, it is virtually unacknowledged by the superficial media and the voters who remain fascinated by the present only and the personality politics that is the dominant force these days.
O
| 273 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 11:00:10pm |
re: #271 Nimed
Right, the asymmetrical chocks of a common currency have been pretty huge. But, even the if euro is dissolved, the common market is not going anywhere. Neither the political integration, if we’re lucky.
I’ve mentioned China as the biggest threat because they have effectively separated a market economy from democracy. We don’t know that this isn’t an economically viable political model - so far it has been extremely successful. And successes tend to be imitated, they are already being imitated in East Asia.
Think of the potential consequences of this: 50 years from now, we can have a world in which most economic power is not in the hands of democratically elected governments. Our differences with the Europeans are trivial compared to this - we need an EU who doesn’t punch below their weight. That is not going to happen if they don’t get their shit together and agree on some sort of supranational foreign body with real political power.
As long as the French are part of it they will always punch far below their weight, just sayin…
/
| 274 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:01:12pm |
re: #266 Nimed
That is not at all how the EU sees it, to them America is the threat and they need the EU to counter American power. No, it is neither realistic nor beneficial, it is wrong for the reason you cite, but the EU operates by fantasy, not reality.
As far as Turkey, just a joke really. Of course the US is stringing them along as the US has its own interests in mind and Turkey is a key military asset, though less so now that the USSR is gone.
France will not agree Turkey being let in the club. Period, end of story. But the US gets brownie points from the Turks for championing their cause.
| 275 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:02:06pm |
re: #273 ausador
As long as the French are part of it they will always punch far below their weight, just sayin…
/
Heh, that is the core weakness of the EU, the French are involved!
| 276 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 11:03:45pm |
re: #270 Bagua
Right, more a question of decorum than requirement. The Queen will be kept updated by Christopher Geidt, the Private Secretary to the Sovereign, who will be informed by Sir Gus O’Donnell, the Cabinet Secretary who will send teams of civil servants to negotiate with the parties, and with Jeremy Heywood, the Permanent Secretary at 10 Downing Street.
Meanwhile Gordo will play patriot daring the opposition to topple the government during a financial crisis, but a Labour/Lib Dem government could be voted down. Also there is no love between Gordon Brown and Mr Clegg, so the price of a coalition will be very steep.
Alternatively, the Tories will likely claim the right to at least lead the interim government as they got the most votes. It will all be amusing to watch, but the likely end result is a stitch-up that keeps Brown in power.
Maybe. Clegg will cut the best deal he can for his Party. This is the most stroke they have had in decades. He won’t squander it. There are some very shrewd people in the Old Guard of the LDs.
| 277 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 11:03:55pm |
re: #272 Bagua
They did it on purpose, all part of the plan to create beneficial crises which are opportunities to call for more EU control. This is how the EU works. Of course monetary union without harmonisation of taxation was always going to create problems down the road. No problem for the EU, they just needed to move the process, which they knew to be flawed, forward.
It is what they do. Create new, but flawed, institutions that give them oversight and create new realities. Once the inevitable problems unfold, the EU can then propose how to “fix” or “reform” the flawed institution they created. At that time, the proposals will always sound reasonable and appropriate. But they will always involve more “Europe”, more EU control, never less and they will never admit they created the conditions for the disaster in the first instance.
It is ingenious and devious, but as it unfolds over numerous decades, it is virtually unacknowledged by the superficial media and the voters who remain fascinated by the present only and the personality politics that is the dominant force these days.
O
I assumed you have posted this to ATS already?
/ ;)
| 278 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:07:05pm |
re: #271 Nimed
Gosh, those are all core EU propaganda. You have it all memorised. The reality though is that it is all a farce, the EU will always be a paper tiger, all hat and no cattle. The end result will be to forever weaken the former nation states in the fantasy hope of a super-state which will itself implode. It will all end in tears, Greece is merely the canary in the coal mine.
But granted, the reasons behind the EU always sound good, reasonable and noble, that is the allure. But look closely and they are fantasy and dreaming.
| 279 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:07:58pm |
re: #274 Bagua
That is not at all how the EU sees it, to them America is the threat and they need the EU to counter American power. No, it is neither realistic nor beneficial, it is wrong for the reason you cite, but the EU operates by fantasy, not reality.
As far as Turkey, just a joke really. Of course the US is stringing them along as the US has its own interests in mind and Turkey is a key military asset, though less so now that the USSR is gone.
France will not agree Turkey being let in the club. Period, end of story. But the US gets brownie points from the Turks for championing their cause.
I believe most nations in the EU, including the UK, already favor accepting Turkey. The Germans and the French opposite, but I don’t think the opposition is going to last, say, 20 years.
But, as I said in 271, our main beef is not with the French.
| 280 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:10:05pm |
re: #277 ausador
Lol, but actually this is all well known by those pedantic enough to actually study the EU. It is how they get away with it all, it’s all just too complex and at the end of the day, boring and bureaucratic. The media and the voters are more interested in bread and circus. It is the death by ten thousand paper cuts.
| 281 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:12:25pm |
re: #278 Bagua
Gosh, those are all core EU propaganda. You have it all memorised. The reality though is that it is all a farce, the EU will always be a paper tiger, all hat and no cattle. The end result will be to forever weaken the former nation states in the fantasy hope of a super-state which will itself implode. It will all end in tears, Greece is merely the canary in the coal mine.
But granted, the reasons behind the EU always sound good, reasonable and noble, that is the allure. But look closely and they are fantasy and dreaming.
What are you talking about? What part of it is propaganda? The EU really is the largest economic zone in the world, and the common market is really not going to be dissolved. Their combined army is the second most powerful in the world, though it severely lags our own. And their interest largely don’t collide with our own. What part of this is untrue?
| 282 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:14:16pm |
re: #279 Nimed
I believe most nations in the EU, including the UK, already favor accepting Turkey. The Germans and the French opposite, but I don’t think the opposition is going to last, say, 20 years.
But, as I said in 271, our main beef is not with the French.
Lol, the UK bends over for everything, it’s tradition. The French and the Germans are 2/3rds the actual EU, they run the show, with the UK more of an inconvenience and financier than partner.
The EU will collapse in disorder long before 20 years go by, if not now with Greece hitting the skids. I don’t think it can survive long enough to assimilate Turkey.
| 283 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 11:15:11pm |
re: #272 Bagua
They did it on purpose, all part of the plan to create beneficial crises which are opportunities to call for more EU control. This is how the EU works. Of course monetary union without harmonisation of taxation was always going to create problems down the road. No problem for the EU, they just needed to move the process, which they knew to be flawed, forward.
It is what they do. Create new, but flawed, institutions that give them oversight and create new realities. Once the inevitable problems unfold, the EU can then propose how to “fix” or “reform” the flawed institution they created. At that time, the proposals will always sound reasonable and appropriate. But they will always involve more “Europe”, more EU control, never less and they will never admit they created the conditions for the disaster in the first instance.
It is ingenious and devious, but as it unfolds over numerous decades, it is virtually unacknowledged by the superficial media and the voters who remain fascinated by the present only and the personality politics that is the dominant force these days.
O
Sorry, can’t buy that particular conspiracy theory. The Germans would rather cut their own throats than save the Greeks. It does them no good whatsoever. But the concept of a United Europe was just too strong for the naysayers to be heard, and Germany was leading the charge. As long as global economic growth was maintained, everything was cool, but the derivative collapse exposed the weaknesses of certain countries in the EU. Iceland is a basket case, and even though it is outside the EU, its collapse has impacted Ireland and the UK especially hard. Ireland is hanging by a thread. Greece is a basket case and may have to withdraw from the Euro to let it’s once and future currency, the Drachma, float down to save itself. Spain and Portugal are in dire straits because they are tied to the Euro. They may have to do the same. It’s complicated, but it was predictable. Paul Krugman did. No wonder he won the Nobel.
| 284 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:16:49pm |
re: #281 Nimed
Truth is relative. What you are stating is the basic Pro-EU arguments, I call them “propaganda” because I’m a sceptic, to a Eu-supporter they are “truth”. You are not wrong, you are correctly stating their side.
| 285 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:17:18pm |
| 286 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:18:58pm |
| 287 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:20:17pm |
re: #284 Bagua
Truth is relative. What you are stating is the basic Pro-EU arguments, I call them “propaganda” because I’m a sceptic, to a Eu-supporter they are “truth”. You are not wrong, you are correctly stating their side.
That is not my intention. I’m arguing that a strong EU in the international arena is more beneficial than harmful for U.S. interest. But so is a economically prosperous India, for instance.
See my argument regarding China in 271. It can be discussed independently of the EU.
| 288 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 11:21:15pm |
re: #281 Nimed
Their combined army is the second most powerful in the world, though it severely lags our own.
Well sure but the French insisted that all military vehicles carry a large white oblong cloth as part of the standard stores. No one is really sure what they are for but the French insist that they will be very handy later.
/
(What “combined army” they don’t have anything like a combined army, they have a bunch of little seperate ones that if you count their individual manpower and equipment adds up to a kinda impressive total, but a “Combined Army” it ain’t.)
| 289 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 11:22:15pm |
re: #286 Bagua
Define “imply”, both are part and parcel of the EU. The Euro is a core EU objective.
Yup. And the English Pound abides.
| 290 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:23:32pm |
re: #283 austin_blue
You are looking at the present situation, I’m talking about the whole multi-decade plan. The process is intricate, devious and very well thought out. The beneficial crises is exactly the mechanism by which it is advanced. The emergence of the EU is a step by step, inch by inch relentless process.
| 291 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 11:25:29pm |
re: #288 ausador
Well sure but the French insisted that all military vehicles carry a large white oblong cloth as part of the standard stores. No one is really sure what they are for but the French insist that they will be very handy later.
/
(What “combined army” they don’t have anything like a combined army, they have a bunch of little seperate ones that if you count their individual manpower and equipment adds up to a kinda impressive total, but a “Combined Army” it ain’t.)
Actually, when Sarkozy became president, he had that cloth replaced with a picture of a beret-wearing French soldier giving a thug a kick in the ass. The French have certainly fought like men against the Taliban and in dealing with the Somali pirates.
| 292 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:26:05pm |
re: #286 Bagua
Define “imply”, both are part and parcel of the EU. The Euro is a core EU objective.
It doesn’t have to be. The EU was a single european market (meaning free circulation of good, people and capital) before the euro currency. In this model, countries largely retained the control of their fiscal and monetary policy (except for the interest rate).
| 293 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:27:27pm |
re: #289 austin_blue
Yup. And the English Pound abides.
Of course, Britain has to actually agree the Euro, nothing is done by fiat. Also note that the EU and the Euro are not identical, though the latter is the likely result of the former growing more dominant. Right now the Euro is the key EU policy agenda, if it collapses it likely takes the political construct with it. Thus Merkel will make a few sounds of protest to please her voters, but ultimately, they will sacrifice their own national economies to save the Euro.
We will watch it together, right here on LGF.
| 294 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 11:29:14pm |
re: #288 ausador
Well sure but the French insisted that all military vehicles carry a large white oblong cloth as part of the standard stores. No one is really sure what they are for but the French insist that they will be very handy later.
/
(What “combined army” they don’t have anything like a combined army, they have a bunch of little seperate ones that if you count their individual manpower and equipment adds up to a kinda impressive total, but a “Combined Army” it ain’t.)
Now, now. French air power and armor was important in Iraq ‘91, and their assistance in Afghanistan has been very important. Their refusal to join us in Iraq ‘03 actually showed their intelligence. Chad was a former french colony and they knew for a fact (and sent us the intel), that Chad wasn’t sending yellowcake to Iraq. Conveniently overlooked by other western intelligence agencies.
It’s a slam dunk!
Err..not so much.
| 295 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:32:10pm |
re: #290 Bagua
You are looking at the present situation, I’m talking about the whole multi-decade plan. The process is intricate, devious and very well thought out. The beneficial crises is exactly the mechanism by which it is advanced. The emergence of the EU is a step by step, inch by inch relentless process.
Suppose you’re right - why do you see this as a bad thing?
| 296 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:32:40pm |
re: #292 Nimed
It doesn’t have to be. The EU was a single european market (meaning free circulation of good, people and capital) before the euro currency. In this model, countries largely retained the control of their fiscal and monetary policy (except for the interest rate).
Of course, that was the alleged original purpose, and the only thing Britons were ever allowed a vote on. A sensible thing indeed. However the EU has morphed from the single market ideal into a fledgling single state, all through incremental changes and offering “solutions” to crises which always involve more EU, more Europe.
Not a problem if the citizens were allowed a vote to accept or reject this. The problem being they weren’t allowed to vote on the emerging massive changes in their national governance. Those who were allowed to vote, voted no, but the EU brushed the “wrong” votes aside and managed to get their constitution regardless.
| 297 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 11:33:32pm |
re: #290 Bagua
You are looking at the present situation, I’m talking about the whole multi-decade plan. The process is intricate, devious and very well thought out. The beneficial crises is exactly the mechanism by which it is advanced. The emergence of the EU is a step by step, inch by inch relentless process.
Yah yah yah. There is nothing but the present situation in economic terms. The shit is hitting the fan and the EU is doing whatever it can to contain the damage. Your conspiracy theory is crap. That’s not how modern economies work.
Bagua, you aren’t turning all Freeper Dingbat on us, are you? That would be a shame.
| 298 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 11:38:01pm |
re: #296 Bagua
Of course, that was the alleged original purpose, and the only thing Britons were ever allowed a vote on. A sensible thing indeed. However the EU has morphed from the single market ideal into a fledgling single state, all through incremental changes and offering “solutions” to crises which always involve more EU, more Europe.
Not a problem if the citizens were allowed a vote to accept or reject this. The problem being they weren’t allowed to vote on the emerging massive changes in their national governance. Those who were allowed to vote, voted no, but the EU brushed the “wrong” votes aside and managed to get their constitution regardless.
And that is David Cameron’s problem: He didn’t want to let his nation vote the “wrong way”.
| 299 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:39:19pm |
re: #297 austin_blue
Yah yah yah. There is nothing but the present situation in economic terms. The shit is hitting the fan and the EU is doing whatever it can to contain the damage. Your conspiracy theory is crap. That’s not how modern economies work.
Bagua, you aren’t turning all Freeper Dingbat on us, are you? That would be a shame.
I don’t see why you guys are so passionate about this, one way or the other.
| 300 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:40:41pm |
re: #295 Nimed
Suppose you’re right - why do you see this as a bad thing?
There’s the rub, it all sounds like a jolly idea. No more war between France and Germany, (the real prime motivation), Germany achieves the European superstate they failed to create through war, and France gets to pretend they are leading “Europe.”
Some parts, the single market for example, are good for business and convenient as well. The European nation states, who have been troublesome historically, give up their irksome sovereignty in favour of a new, post-democratic rule by the Eurocrats, who presumably have all of our best interests at heart.
It all sounds ducky and we get to live in the sunlit upland with unicorn farts powering the new Eutopea. Problem is, it is the nation states that have created the new prosperity and peace, not the EU which is ultimately not democratically accountable. That is the problem. I want power to be retained by the voters, not unaccountable bureaucrats.
| 301 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 11:41:28pm |
re: #299 Nimed
I don’t see why you guys are so passionate about this, one way or the other.
“Bemused” would be a better description, I’m just reading and throwing in the occasional bit of snark. ;)
| 302 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, May 7, 2010 11:41:38pm |
re: #300 Bagua
There’s the rub, it all sounds like a jolly idea. No more war between France and Germany, (the real prime motivation), Germany achieves the European superstate they failed to create through war, and France gets to pretend they are leading “Europe.”
Some parts, the single market for example, are good for business and convenient as well. The European nation states, who have been troublesome historically, give up their irksome sovereignty in favour of a new, post-democratic rule by the Eurocrats, who presumably have all of our best interests at heart.
It all sounds ducky and we get to live in the sunlit upland with unicorn farts powering the new Eutopea. Problem is, it is the nation states that have created the new prosperity and peace, not the EU which is ultimately not democratically accountable. That is the problem. I want power to be retained by the voters, not unaccountable bureaucrats.
Quite concur.
| 303 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 11:43:25pm |
re: #299 Nimed
I don’t see why you guys are so passionate about this, one way or the other.
Markets, my man, markets. Money rules the world. A sneeze in Europe can cause pneumonia in the US. And we have lost 2.2 million manufacturing jobs in this country in the last two years and have only added 100,00 in the last three months. that’s a painfully slow recovery. We need a strong Europe to buy our goods.
| 304 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:45:52pm |
re: #300 Bagua
There’s the rub, it all sounds like a jolly idea. No more war between France and Germany, (the real prime motivation), Germany achieves the European superstate they failed to create through war, and France gets to pretend they are leading “Europe.”
Some parts, the single market for example, are good for business and convenient as well. The European nation states, who have been troublesome historically, give up their irksome sovereignty in favour of a new, post-democratic rule by the Eurocrats, who presumably have all of our best interests at heart.
It all sounds ducky and we get to live in the sunlit upland with unicorn farts powering the new Eutopea. Problem is, it is the nation states that have created the new prosperity and peace, not the EU which is ultimately not democratically accountable. That is the problem. I want power to be retained by the voters, not unaccountable bureaucrats.
Look, even if the EU takes these strides towards a Federation, they are still accountable to the votes of their member states - and small countries have a disproportionally large representation in the EU institutions - parliament, Councils and Comission.
| 305 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:47:36pm |
re: #303 austin_blue
Markets, my man, markets. Money rules the world. A sneeze in Europe can cause pneumonia in the US. And we have lost 2.2 million manufacturing jobs in this country in the last two years and have only added 100,00 in the last three months. that’s a painfully slow recovery. We need a strong Europe to buy our goods.
So what Bagua is saying is that a more politically integrated EU will have a weaker economy, which is going to harmful for the U.S. in the long run?
| 306 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 11:48:05pm |
re: #300 Bagua
There’s the rub, it all sounds like a jolly idea. No more war between France and Germany, (the real prime motivation), Germany achieves the European superstate they failed to create through war, and France gets to pretend they are leading “Europe.”
Some parts, the single market for example, are good for business and convenient as well. The European nation states, who have been troublesome historically, give up their irksome sovereignty in favour of a new, post-democratic rule by the Eurocrats, who presumably have all of our best interests at heart.
It all sounds ducky and we get to live in the sunlit upland with unicorn farts powering the new Eutopea. Problem is, it is the nation states that have created the new prosperity and peace, not the EU which is ultimately not democratically accountable. That is the problem. I want power to be retained by the voters, not unaccountable bureaucrats.
Wow. I think you may be certifiably insane if you believe all that.
| 307 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:48:37pm |
re: #297 austin_blue
Yah yah yah. There is nothing but the present situation in economic terms. The shit is hitting the fan and the EU is doing whatever it can to contain the damage. Your conspiracy theory is crap. That’s not how modern economies work.
Bagua, you aren’t turning all Freeper Dingbat on us, are you? That would be a shame.
Come on mate, don’t start with insults, we were having a good discussion. Freepers? Dingbat? That is uncalled for and you are now giving a parody of my position with your focus only on the present crises. Such a position is superficial and derivative of the lazy MSM, you are better than that.
The Greek situation didn’t just materialise out of a vacuum and the EU is complex and the result of decades of intricacies. And yes, of course “the EU is doing whatever it can to contain the damage.” That is what they do, make proposals which sound sensible in the face of real crises.
The part they don’t mention is that the crises were inevitable and their own doing. It is called Engrenage, and the EU project advances via these beneficial crises. But yes, it is too complex and conspiratorial for your simplistic view that is fascinated by the moment, the crisis dejure, effects not causes.
| 308 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 11:49:04pm |
The Europeans have their issues to sort out and we have ours. I for one certainly don’t believe that we really have any capacity to change anything over there, in fact bluntly sticking our noses in would almost surely make things go against us.
I’m willing to sit back and wait for the dust to settle, what other choice do we really have anyway?
| 309 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:50:14pm |
re: #306 austin_blue
Wow. I think you may be certifiably insane if you believe all that.
Nice of you to say so, asshole. Is it ever possible to discuss something detailed with you without your resort to juvenile insults? Just don’t talk to me if you can’t be civil.
| 310 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:50:56pm |
Ok, I’m going to re-post this, because I don’t understand you care about the EU than this:
I’ve mentioned China as the biggest threat because they have effectively separated a market economy from democracy. We don’t know that this isn’t an economically viable political model - so far it has been extremely successful. And successes tend to be imitated, they are already being imitated in East Asia.
Think of the potential consequences of this: 50 years from now, we can have a world in which most economic power is not in the hands of democratically elected governments. Our differences with the Europeans are trivial compared to this - we need an EU who doesn’t punch below their weight. That is not going to happen if they don’t get their shit together and agree on some sort of supranational foreign body with real political power.
| 311 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 11:51:56pm |
re: #305 Nimed
So what Bagua is saying is that a more politically integrated EU will have a weaker economy, which is going to harmful for the U.S. in the long run?
No, I think Bagua is nuts. The EU is a construct to prevent war between Germany and France?
Just play The Twilight Zone theme music now. That is certifiably batshit.
| 312 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 11:54:29pm |
re: #309 Bagua
Nice of you to say so, asshole. Is it ever possible to discuss something detailed with you without your resort to juvenile insults? Just don’t talk to me if you can’t be civil.
Dude, I tried. But the Common Market and then the EU was a construct that was primarily formed to prevent war between France and Germany?
Wooo!
| 313 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:55:06pm |
re: #305 Nimed
So what Bagua is saying is that a more politically integrated EU will have a weaker economy, which is going to harmful for the U.S. in the long run?
One key point. I don’t judge the EU from the point of view of how it benefits or harms the US. That is a typically American trait. I am concerned about whether the emerging EU super-state is beneficial for the people who populate its nation states. First and foremost America’s real ally, the UK.
A rough analogy is the Walmart effect, yes we get cheap goods and an easy place to shop, but what of all the smaller retailers put out of business? The EU is similar, doing away with all those pesky nation states, but what is lost to acheive this?
| 314 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, May 7, 2010 11:55:29pm |
and small countries have a disproportionally large representation in the EU institutions - parliament, Councils and Comission.
See I knew it! England is going to end up surrendering to Estonia for the “Wanton Plundering” of their women! Move to Northern Ireland while you still can, you might not have to face the Estonian reprisals there!
/
| 315 |
Bagua Fri, May 7, 2010 11:56:15pm |
re: #311 austin_blue
No, I think Bagua is nuts. The EU is a construct to prevent war between Germany and France?
Just play The Twilight Zone theme music now. That is certifiably batshit.
Again, you are arguing from ignorance about a subject you know little about, yet you feel free to insult me. Whatever. Read a few books, learn a little history and then get back to me.
| 316 |
Nimed Fri, May 7, 2010 11:56:21pm |
re: #311 austin_blue
No, I think Bagua is nuts. The EU is a construct to prevent war between Germany and France?
Just play The Twilight Zone theme music now. That is certifiably batshit.
Well, there’s some truth to that, but NATO had a much bigger role for the purposes of avoiding war.
re: #306 austin_blue
re: #309 Bagua
Come on, guys. Kiss, make up, and stop ignoring China!
| 317 |
austin_blue Fri, May 7, 2010 11:58:05pm |
re: #307 Bagua
Come on mate, don’t start with insults, we were having a good discussion. Freepers? Dingbat? That is uncalled for and you are now giving a parody of my position with your focus only on the present crises. Such a position is superficial and derivative of the lazy MSM, you are better than that.
The Greek situation didn’t just materialise out of a vacuum and the EU is complex and the result of decades of intricacies. And yes, of course “the EU is doing whatever it can to contain the damage.” That is what they do, make proposals which sound sensible in the face of real crises.
The part they don’t mention is that the crises were inevitable and their own doing. It is called Engrenage, and the EU project advances via these beneficial crises. But yes, it is too complex and conspiratorial for your simplistic view that is fascinated by the moment, the crisis dejure, effects not causes.
No. We were having a discussion and then you went off the deep end. Don’t try to play it any other way. If you think the Germans are happy with what they have been forced into, you are bug-nuts insane.
| 318 |
Nimed Sat, May 8, 2010 12:00:21am |
re: #313 Bagua
One key point. I don’t judge the EU from the point of view of how it benefits or harms the US. That is a typically American trait. I am concerned about whether the emerging EU super-state is beneficial for the people who populate its nation states. First and foremost America’s real ally, the UK.
A rough analogy is the Walmart effect, yes we get cheap goods and an easy place to shop, but what of all the smaller retailers put out of business? The EU is similar, doing away with all those pesky nation states, but what is lost to acheive this?
As I said in 304, the small European states will have a more than proportional representation in the EU institutions. Furthermore, and current crisis notwithstanding, the EU was much more beneficial than harmful for Europeans.
China, Bagua. China. No democracy at all there. Much greater population and rate of growth.
| 319 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 12:09:45am |
re: #316 Nimed
Well, there’s some truth to that, but NATO had a much bigger role for the purposes of avoiding war.
re: #306 austin_blue
re: #309 Bagua
Come on, guys. Kiss, make up, and stop ignoring China!
You, Nimed, are willing to do actual research. Austin wishes to dismiss through insult. Big difference.
You are, of course, are looking at the actual history. The Treaty of Paris in 1951 which led to the European Coal and Steel Community being the first major advance for the Pan-Europa movement which preceded WWII. This gave birth to the High Authority, which is now, of course, the European Commission and the Common Assembly which is now the European Parliament.
This was made possible by Winston Churchill’s 1946 call for a United States of Europe which led to the Council of Europe. That the intention was the end of European wars is clear and beyond dispute.
The reason the French proposed the European Coal and Steel Community was to integrate the two industries necessary to make weapons of war. See the Schuman declaration.
| 320 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 12:13:53am |
re: #317 austin_blue
No. We were having a discussion and then you went off the deep end. Don’t try to play it any other way. If you think the Germans are happy with what they have been forced into, you are bug-nuts insane.
Again, Austin, if you wish to trade insults, talk to yourself, not I. I’m not interested on your terms.
“If you think the Germans are happy with what they have been forced into, you are bug-nuts insane.” Is simplistic and absurd and just an observation about current popular mood. I am discussing a complex history, but I won’t do it with someone who just wants to call names.
| 321 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 12:18:42am |
re: #318 Nimed
As I said in 304, the small European states will have a more than proportional representation in the EU institutions. Furthermore, and current crisis notwithstanding, the EU was much more beneficial than harmful for Europeans.
China, Bagua. China. No democracy at all there. Much greater population and rate of growth.
Absolutely correct Nimed, spot on in fact. One of the core objections to the Pan-European project is that it ignores the real challenges posed by China and instead panders to a European unease with the USA. That is one of the core falsies, that a single EU super-state is necessary to counter-balance American power, when in fact America is the ally which has made freedom and prosperity possible for the European member nations.
The ultimate winners are China, India and Russia, and the ultimate losers are the EU member states and the US.
| 322 |
austin_blue Sat, May 8, 2010 12:40:14am |
re: #320 Bagua
Again, Austin, if you wish to trade insults, talk to yourself, not I. I’m not interested on your terms.
“If you think the Germans are happy with what they have been forced into, you are bug-nuts insane.” Is simplistic and absurd and just an observation about current popular mood. I am discussing a complex history, but I won’t do it with someone who just wants to call names.
Sorry, I was just noting the realpolotik on the ground. You seem to think that 1951 is relevant. I think 1951 was 59 years ago and completely irrelevant to the situation in Europe today. You seem to think that keeping France and Germany from going to war is still relevant to the Common Market/European Union that is in place today.
I call bullshit. Sorry, just my opinion, but consortiums like EADS put the lie to that, don’t they?
The weakness in the EU is that they brought struggling economies into the fold before they had mature financial systems in place when they adopted the Euro. If they had retained their own currencies, they could have floated them to manipulate their debt levels relative to the Euro but not been dictated by it.
This is macroeconomics 101 and doesn’t need any conspiracy theories to explain the problems that the EU is having right now. Sorry if I got up your nose, but you are just dead wrong.
| 323 |
Nimed Sat, May 8, 2010 12:41:36am |
re: #321 Bagua
Absolutely correct Nimed, spot on in fact. One of the core objections to the Pan-European project is that it ignores the real challenges posed by China and instead panders to a European unease with the USA. That is one of the core falsies, that a single EU super-state is necessary to counter-balance American power, when in fact America is the ally which has made freedom and prosperity possible for the European member nations.
The ultimate winners are China, India and Russia, and the ultimate losers are the EU member states and the US.
We’re probably getting closer to our final disagreement (which is a pretty satisfactory conclusion of a discussion for me).
As I said before, even if the EU continues to advance in the direction of a Federation, that really doesn’t bother me, since the EU institutions are democratically elected bodies. Same thing with India, Brazil, Turkey and Mexico, to name the biggest. Successes in these countries will promote democratic ideals around the world.
China, Russia, and probably Venezuela soon, are a different beast. They are undemocratic (or tilting that way), and they have a huge influence on their neighbors. If they are successful, they will be emulated. Singapure, for instance, is in no hurry to adopt a completely democratic form of government, and this is attributed mainly to Chinese influence.
Which is not to say, of course, that there isn’t strife and conflicts of interest inside these divisions. Nevertheless, the fight between the basic models of government will ultimately determine how most of the world population will live in the coming decades.
| 324 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 12:45:01am |
Austin, if you want to learn a little history, start with this below. History is important, and while current events are also important, they do not erase the foundations upon which the present reality is built. Above you called me “bug-nuts insane” for pointing out something that is in fact, not at all in dispute by those actually familiar with modern European history.
“Europe will not be made at once, nor according to a single master plan of construction. It will be built by concrete achievements, which create de facto dependence, mutual interests and the desire for common action.
The gathering of the nations of Europe demands the elimination of the age-old antagonism of France and Germany. The first concern of any action undertaken must involve these two countries.
With this objective in mind, the French government proposes to direct its action on one limited but decisive point:
The French government proposes to place Franco-German production of coal and steel under one common High Authority in an organisation open to the participation of other countries of Europe.
The pooling of coal and steel production will immediately assure the establishment of common bases for economic development as a first step for the European Federation. It will change the destiny of regions that have long been devoted to manufacturing munitions of war, of which they have been most constantly the victims.
This merging of our interests in coal and steel production and our joint action will make it plain that any war between France and Germany becomes not only unthinkable but materially impossible. The establishment of this powerful unity for production, open to all countries willing to take part, and eventually capable of providing all the member countries with the basic elements of industrial production on the same terms, will cast the real foundation for their economic unification.”
| 325 |
Nimed Sat, May 8, 2010 12:49:05am |
re: #322 austin_blue
Sorry, I was just noting the realpolotik on the ground. You seem to think that 1951 is relevant. I think 1951 was 59 years ago and completely irrelevant to the situation in Europe today. You seem to think that keeping France and Germany from going to war is still relevant to the Common Market/European Union that is in place today.
I call bullshit. Sorry, just my opinion, but consortiums like EADS put the lie to that, don’t they?
The weakness in the EU is that they brought struggling economies into the fold before they had mature financial systems in place when they adopted the Euro. If they had retained their own currencies, they could have floated them to manipulate their debt levels relative to the Euro but not been dictated by it.
This is macroeconomics 101 and doesn’t need any conspiracy theories to explain the problems that the EU is having right now. Sorry if I got up your nose, but you are just dead wrong.
You’re right that preventing war has not been one of the main priorities of the EU for quite a while now. I don’t think you and Bagua disagree on that point.
There’s plenty of substantial disagreement to go around. No need to amplify it with this point.
| 326 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 12:56:08am |
re: #323 Nimed
You are partly correct. The EU is most certainly not a dictatorship, nor does the EU = EUSSR. However, it is “post-democratic” in that the end result greatly weakens the individual votes of the member nations. Now, even unanimity among a majority of the voters of the UK becomes only one vote out of 27 other nations. Thus the vestiges of democracy are maintained, but the result is unwieldy and causes the interests of individual nations to be subsumed by the collective of 27 nations, most of whom do not even share a common language.
The end result is a rule by the unelected bureaucrats, who make the actual laws and regulations. All good and well except that there is no direct democratic accountability. The interests of the UK are now balanced with 27 others, meaning the UK no longer elects its own government. Rather, it elects a provincial government whose remit is to rubber stamp the regulations issuing from Brussles.
The equivalent for the US would be rule by a pan-American construct in which all member nations has a vote. The US President, Congress and Senate would be one vote among the dozens of pan-Americans. This would be unthinkable to most Americans.
| 327 |
austin_blue Sat, May 8, 2010 1:02:18am |
re: #325 Nimed
You’re right that preventing war has not been one of the main priorities of the EU for quite a while now. I don’t think you and Bagua disagree on that point.
There’s plenty of substantial disagreement to go around. No need to amplify it with this point.
I will respectfully disagree. My previous comments in #322 are *exactly* the point. The situation in the EU right now was plainly laid out. Among economists, it is not really a discussable point. Bagua’s conspiracy theories are fatuous. They are as detached from reality, as much as he believes them, as Elvis still being alive and pumping gas at a service station in Tupelo, Mississippi.
The King is just plain old dead.
| 328 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 1:07:13am |
re: #325 Nimed
You’re right that preventing war has not been one of the main priorities of the EU for quite a while now. I don’t think you and Bagua disagree on that point.
There’s plenty of substantial disagreement to go around. No need to amplify it with this point.
Well there’s the rub. The actual modern European peace and prosperity is really a result of American intervention and NATO. The EU set about to “achieve” something that was already achieved. Much of it is the French wanting it to be their plan, their deed, and the Germans willing to be the bankroll was because of very valid historical guilt, but also wanting to at last create their European unity.
It has, however, outlived its purpose on this account as no one contemplates another German-Franco war as even possible. Yet this ideal is a noble one, and as I have said, all the EU’s intentions are well meaning and sound reasonable on an individual basis. Ask almost anyone, (present company excluded) and you will hear it said that this new era of peace is the great accomplishment of the European Union. Just as any American can cite “liberty and freedom” as the essential result of the birth of the United States.
| 329 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 1:09:03am |
re: #327 austin_blue
That’s really deep Austin, Elvis? What are you drunk?
| 330 |
Nimed Sat, May 8, 2010 1:15:23am |
re: #326 Bagua
You are partly correct. The EU is most certainly not a dictatorship, nor does the EU = EUSSR. However, it is “post-democratic” in that the end result greatly weakens the individual votes of the member nations. Now, even unanimity among a majority of the voters of the UK becomes only one vote out of 27 other nations. Thus the vestiges of democracy are maintained, but the result is unwieldy and causes the interests of individual nations to be subsumed by the collective of 27 nations, most of whom do not even share a common language.
The end result is a rule by the unelected bureaucrats, who make the actual laws and regulations. All good and well except that there is no direct democratic accountability. The interests of the UK are now balanced with 27 others, meaning the UK no longer elects its own government. Rather, it elects a provincial government whose remit is to rubber stamp the regulations issuing from Brussles.
The equivalent for the US would be rule by a pan-American construct in which all member nations has a vote. The US President, Congress and Senate would be one vote among the dozens of pan-Americans. This would be unthinkable to most Americans.
But you can analogize the European Union you just described with the U.S. It’s not that different - a single U.S. state elects some bodies with representation proportional to their population (the Presidency and the House) and one body in which every state has equal representation (the Senate). Unanimity in a given state doesn’t count for much. But the U.S. is definitely democratic.
You might argue that the UK population doesn’t have a voice in the Treaty of Lisbon. I disagree - it’s true they never held a referendum, but the British citizens could have voted for the UK Independence Party, which had just 3.1% of the votes in this election. If rescinding the Treaty of Lisbon was so important for the British, they could simply have voted UKIP.
| 331 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 1:20:02am |
re: #322 austin_blue
Sorry, I was just noting the realpolotik on the ground. You seem to think that 1951 is relevant. I think 1951 was 59 years ago and completely irrelevant to the situation in Europe today. You seem to think that keeping France and Germany from going to war is still relevant to the Common Market/European Union that is in place today.
I call bullshit. Sorry, just my opinion, but consortiums like EADS put the lie to that, don’t they?
The weakness in the EU is that they brought struggling economies into the fold before they had mature financial systems in place when they adopted the Euro. If they had retained their own currencies, they could have floated them to manipulate their debt levels relative to the Euro but not been dictated by it.
This is macroeconomics 101 and doesn’t need any conspiracy theories to explain the problems that the EU is having right now. Sorry if I got up your nose, but you are just dead wrong.
No it is not 101, it is you oversimplifying and focusing on only a limited aspect of this one present crisis. The EU has a history, is quite complex, and the current economic problems with Greece are merely a symptom, not an underlying cause. A predictable one at that, though Italy, Spain or Portugal could have been the first to go belly up. You’ve shown me you are unfamiliar with the basic history we are discussing.
Understanding the underlying causation is the key to true understanding, just reacting to the crisis of the moment is reactionary. I’ve been following the increasing spread between Italian and German Euro bonds for over a two years now. The dark horse turned out to be Greece, but it was always going to be one of them, and may soon spread to Italy, Spain and Portugal.
| 332 |
Nimed Sat, May 8, 2010 1:24:21am |
re: #328 Bagua
Well there’s the rub. The actual modern European peace and prosperity is really a result of American intervention and NATO. The EU set about to “achieve” something that was already achieved. Much of it is the French wanting it to be their plan, their deed, and the Germans willing to be the bankroll was because of very valid historical guilt, but also wanting to at last create their European unity.
It has, however, outlived its purpose on this account as no one contemplates another German-Franco war as even possible. Yet this ideal is a noble one, and as I have said, all the EU’s intentions are well meaning and sound reasonable on an individual basis. Ask almost anyone, (present company excluded) and you will hear it said that this new era of peace is the great accomplishment of the European Union. Just as any American can cite “liberty and freedom” as the essential result of the birth of the United States.
Points of agreement between you and Austin:
- avoiding a war in Europe was a purpose in founding the UCSC (Bagua believes this was redundant);
- this is not the main purpose, or even one of the most important purposes, for the EU today;
- the current crisis can be attributed to proximal macroeconomic causes, namely the finantial crisis, Greece’s lack of fiscal responsibility and an inability to devalue their currency.
You two agree on this, right?
| 333 |
Nimed Sat, May 8, 2010 1:25:26am |
re: #332 Nimed
Points of agreement between you and Austin:
- avoiding a war in Europe was a purpose in founding the UCSC (Bagua believes this was redundant);
- this is not the main purpose, or even one of the most important purposes, for the EU today;
- the current crisis can be attributed to proximal macroeconomic causes, namely the finantial crisis, Greece’s lack of fiscal responsibility and an inability to devalue their currency.You two agree on this, right?
Ops, pretend the bold is just on the word “proximal”.
| 334 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 1:31:57am |
re: #330 Nimed
But you can analogize the European Union you just described with the U.S. It’s not that different - a single U.S. state elects some bodies with representation proportional to their population (the Presidency and the House) and one body in which every state has equal representation (the Senate). Unanimity in a given state doesn’t count for much. But the U.S. is definitely democratic.
You might argue that the UK population doesn’t have a voice in the Treaty of Lisbon. I disagree - it’s true they never held a referendum, but the British citizens could have voted for the UK Independence Party, which had just 3.1% of the votes in this election. If rescinding the Treaty of Lisbon was so important for the British, they could simply have voted UKIP.
Notice my example isn’t a union of United States, all of which make up one nation and speak the same language. The EU is a consortium of 27 separate nations which do not form one nation or even speak one language. But yes, it is democratic, but in a way that has made individual nations no longer directly voting their governance.
As far as the UKIP, this is exactly what has cost Cameron this election, the UKIP and voters angry with Cameron for reneging on his promise to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. People still tend to vote for one of the majors, but in this election we saw none of them achieve a majority.
Also, I don’t assert that what I’m stating is the pressing issue for the average Briton. As I’ve said, modern politics is now more like an episode of American Idol. The population is fascinated by personality, scandals, and TV. It is all bread and circuses and it is very much the voters who are allowing this to happen through ignorance.
The EU is boring, bureaucratic and bewildering to most people. It is more a man behind the curtain thing, with people playing along with the fantasy that Brown or Cameron will actually be in power. People are lazy, gullible, and easily entertained and distracted. Most people do not think too deeply or study much history, thus we the voters, get the governments we deserve.
| 335 |
Nimed Sat, May 8, 2010 1:48:56am |
re: #334 Bagua
Notice my example isn’t a union of United States, all of which make up one nation and speak the same language. The EU is a consortium of 27 separate nations which do not form one nation or even speak one language. But yes, it is democratic, but in a way that has made individual nations no longer directly voting their governance.
This is a very important difference, but I maintain that transference of control to EU bodies is ultimately in the hands of the population in each country (more in that below). Notice that, unlike in the U.S., the member states can leave the EU at any time. This would be economically disastrous, but they do have the legal option.
As far as the UKIP, this is exactly what has cost Cameron this election, the UKIP and voters angry with Cameron for reneging on his promise to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. People still tend to vote for one of the majors, but in this election we saw none of them achieve a majority.
Also, I don’t assert that what I’m stating is the pressing issue for the average Briton. As I’ve said, modern politics is now more like an episode of American Idol. The population is fascinated by personality, scandals, and TV. It is all bread and circuses and it is very much the voters who are allowing this to happen through ignorance.
The EU is boring, bureaucratic and bewildering to most people. It is more a man behind the curtain thing, with people playing along with the fantasy that Brown or Cameron will actually be in power. People are lazy, gullible, and easily entertained and distracted. Most people do not think too deeply or study much history, thus we the voters, get the governments we deserve.
But here’s the thing: what you’re saying about the gullibility of the population, the general tendency to be distracted by irrelevant stuff, and so on is a feature/bug common to all democracies. God knows we suffer from similar problems. I don’t necessarily agree with you in this point, but if the British are too stupid to vote their interest, hey, that’s just the way it is. We all felt the same way about our fellow citizens in past elections. But it’s still the best system we’ve got.
| 336 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 1:53:11am |
re: #332 Nimed
Points of agreement between you and Austin:
- avoiding a war in Europe was a purpose in founding the UCSC (Bagua believes this was redundant);
I’ve not seen Austin acknowledge this. Also, the UCSC was a key event, but not the only. There was the Treaty of Rome 1927 before it, and much since.
- this is not the main purpose, or even one of the most important purposes, for the EU today;
Not according to the EU and the average “European.”
This is from the EU’s website
The historical roots of the European Union lie in the Second World War. Europeans are determined to prevent such killing and destruction ever happening again. Soon after the war, Europe is split into East and West as the 40-year-long Cold War begins. West European nations create the Council of Europe in 1949. It is a first step towards cooperation between them, but six countries want to go further.
Austin can call this nuts, but it is an clear fact. Note that May 9th, the date of the Schuman Declaration is celebrated as ‘Europe Day.” Not unlike July 4th in the states.
- the current crisis can be attributed to proximal macroeconomic causes, namely the finantial crisis, Greece’s lack of fiscal responsibility and an inability to devalue their currency.
Of course, it is a symptom of the flawed Single Currency, a key project of the EU. By forming a monetary union without harmonisation of taxation it is almost inevitable that this crisis would occur. (Among other issues) I first said that about four years ago.
You see, it was always going to blow up. Greece, Italy, Spain, have in the past needed to devalue their currencies while Germany needs to control inflation. The question was when, not if. It it almost a joke to think they could have one currency between them.
The real question is: “Why does the EU wish to create flawed institutions which must go to crisis eventually?” Again, this is the idea of the “beneficial Crisis”, the next “proximal” problem is actually an opportunity for the EU to propose more EU control, never less. They never say, “Well we screwed that one up.” Rather, they say we need more central EU governance to “fix” whatever the current problem is, they are never wrong, and the next step always sounds reasonable and sensible considering the current crisis.
Once an institution, however flawed, is began, it is almost impossible to reverse. It can be fixed, but never eliminated. The NHS, Social Security, Medicare, these are all similar examples. For good or bad, once they are begun there is no way to eliminate them. And note also, they are always well intentioned.
| 337 |
Bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 2:06:05am |
re: #335 Nimed
This is a very important difference, but I maintain that transference of control to EU bodies is ultimately in the hands of the population in each country (more in that below). Notice that, unlike in the U.S., the member states can leave the EU at any time. This would be economically disastrous, but they do have the legal option.
Spot on, you got it! This is the Achilles heal of the EU and will result in its demise. When, is difficult to predict. Part of the EU program is to steadily erode and replace national institutions, thus, it becomes almost impossible and quite frightening to contemplate an exit. But fall it will on exactly these grounds.
But here’s the thing: what you’re saying about the gullibility of the population, the general tendency to be distracted by irrelevant stuff, and so on is a feature/bug common to all democracies. God knows we suffer from similar problems. I don’t necessarily agree with you in this point, but if the British are too stupid to vote their interest, hey, that’s just the way it is. We all felt the same way about our fellow citizens in past elections. But it’s still the best system we’ve got.
Absolutely, spot on again. Which is why I mention Bread and circuses This human weakness goes way back.
“Bread and circuses” (or bread and games) (from Latin: panem et circenses) is a metaphor for handouts and petty amusements that politicians use to gain popular support, instead of gaining it through sound public policy. The phrase is invoked not only to criticize politicians, but also to criticize their populations for giving up their civic duty.In modern usage, the phrase has become an adjective to deride a populace that no longer values civic virtues and the public life. To many across the political spectrum, left and right, it connotes the triviality and frivolity that defined the Roman Empire prior to its decline and that may contribute to the decline of modern society.
We are living in a modern fantasy world in which politics and issues are framed for us by the talking heads on TV and the superficial media. It is all personality and scandal, a soap opera. The Media helps keeping us dumb and entertained, but ultimately, it is we the voters who fail ourselves by being so easily amused and misled.
Blogs such as this are the one little ray of hope. We get to debate, inform, fact check and educate ourselves apart from the monolithic media. Also, at least in the US, there is still a difference between the two political parties, thus some debate. This last election in the UK there wasn’t a bit of substantial difference on any key issues, thus they debated ridiculous things such as bus passes and this and that personal scandal.
| 338 |
Nimed Sat, May 8, 2010 3:00:55am |
re: #337 Bagua
I was in the middle of a fairly long answer when I saw your latest post. It convinced me that our disagreement boils down to our political differences.
So, for instance, you seem to subscribe to the libertarian view of entitlement programs as a “drug addiction”: the NHS, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. are a net harm, but slowly addict a population, until a large share of voters is so dependent on them that they become very difficult/unpopular to reject. Add to the equation special interests, bureaucracy, and a bunch of other stuff from public choice theory, and you have a public program that lasts forever.
But, inefficiencies notwithstanding, I believe these programs are net benefits, for a number of reasons mostly based on utilitarian arguments. This is a separate discussion too long to have now. But, soon!
The European Union advances in a manner similar to entitlements - the institutions just become too encroached, and politicians will never have the courage to make the right decision and revert some of the integration steps. Again, it’s not clear to me that this is true. Greece abandoning the euro is now considered a very real possibility. And I’m not even sure that further integration would be a terrible thing. All this looks particularly ugly now, of course. OTOH, some poor Eastern European countries have had excellent rates of growth after joining the EU.
The last point you make is about the Media. I disagree the most with this one. Not because I don’t think we live to some extent “in a modern fantasy world in which politics and issues are framed for us by the talking heads on TV and the superficial media”. What I seriously doubt is that the public was more informed in the past, and that voters based their decisions in less frivolous matters. There may be a lot of noise today, but the signal is also much stronger.
| 339 |
bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 3:47:01am |
re: #338 Nimed
re: #337 Bagua
I was in the middle of a fairly long answer when I saw your latest post. It convinced me that our disagreement boils down to our political differences.
So, for instance, you seem to subscribe to the libertarian view of entitlement programs as a “drug addiction”: the NHS, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. are a net harm, but slowly addict a population, until a large share of voters is so dependent on them that they become very difficult/unpopular to reject. Add to the equation special interests, bureaucracy, and a bunch of other stuff from public choice theory, and you have a public program that lasts forever.But, inefficiencies notwithstanding, I believe these programs are net benefits, for a number of reasons mostly based on utilitarian arguments. This is a separate discussion too long to have now. But, soon!
Yes, agreed, and probably bad examples to introduce to this discussion at they are themselves larger issues. I’m more co-opting them as examples of “too big to fail” or “once introduced, impossible to eliminate.” But I’m not advocating eliminating SS or Medicaid, I agree they have value. My point is more, once a large government program or competence is introduced, it is almost impossible to get rid of, good or bad. The only options become to “fix” or “reform” it. Thus if one’s goal is larger government, it is not vital that the program work, rather, it is vital to introduce the program.
In the case of the EU, as it replaces and co-opts national institutions, there is no longer a fall back to replace it. Thus the alternative becomes anarchy, which no-one wants. The fear of what would replace it dampens the will to get rid of something flawed.
| 340 |
bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 3:47:59am |
The European Union advances in a manner similar to entitlements - the institutions just become too encroached, and politicians will never have the courage to make the right decision and revert some of the integration steps. Again, it’s not clear to me that this is true. Greece abandoning the euro is now considered a very real possibility. And I’m not even sure that further integration would be a terrible thing. All this looks particularly ugly now, of course. OTOH, some poor Eastern European countries have had excellent rates of growth after joining the EU.
Exactly, which is why the political class loves the EU, for them it is like killing the golden goose. Of course, the Eastern European countries are also net recipients of aid, which is financed by the richer countries, notably, Germany, France and the UK. Thus they trade their hard won fledgling national independence for handouts, this will continue as long as the handouts are on offer, then collapse.
In no one case will there be a clear right and wrong and never only one side to the debate. The EU is certainly not evil is the way of dictatorships, the intentions are always good and there are always pros and cons. It is on balance that it is a threat, and that only if one values what a strong, independent Britain has meant for the world. Those who prefer a unified government and the end to nationalism would, of course, support the EU and not and an independent UK.
| 341 |
bagua Sat, May 8, 2010 3:53:53am |
The last point you make is about the Media. I disagree the most with this one. Not because I don’t think we live to some extent “in a modern fantasy world in which politics and issues are framed for us by the talking heads on TV and the superficial media”. What I seriously doubt is that the public was more informed in the past, and that voters based their decisions in less frivolous matters. There may be a lot of noise today, but the signal is also much stronger.
Heh, I was actually thinking that as I wrote. I should have been more clear in going all the way back to the Roman Empire. A lazy population obsessed with entertainment and distraction is nothing new. What is perhaps different now is the “strong signal” as you say, but then so is our ability to counter it with the advent of blogs and the increase in knowledge and literacy.
In particular, I am referring to the current state of politics in Britain in which there is a noticeable dumbing down of the population. But was it all that different in the past? I can’t really say. I can say that prior to Blair, and Cameron’s current Blair imitation, there is less substantive debate of real issues and more personality politics. There is a sense of a farce at the present as the majority of all laws originate in Brussels, which is the elephant in the room never acknowledged.
Meanwhile Brown and Cameron debate nonsense and ignore difficult issues. They most certainly don’t debate “Europe” or anything that the voters really care about. This results in the apathy and resentment that has given us the current hung Parliament. An amazing thing, considering the media lining up behind Cameron and the how unpopular Brown is as a Prime Minister. The election was Cameron’s to lose, and he did so, by betraying his promise of a referendum.
The ABC vote won the day, anyone but Cameron, and the UKIP effect denied him the majority. Thus it can be convincingly argued that Cameron would be Prime Minister of a stable majority had he backed giving the British voters a referendum on the EU constitution. Mind you, I don’t say he had to come out against the constitution or advocate leaving the EU, just give the voters a chance to be heard on the issue, as he promised.
Cameron dropped that campaign promise before even being elected. That is supposed to occur after an election, not before.
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