AFA Spokesman Bryan Fischer: Letting House Burn Down Was ‘The Christian Thing To Do’

Wingnuts • Views: 12,060

I’ve been a bit amazed (and not in a good way) at the cruel and inhuman responses of some right wingers to the story about the Tennessee subscription-based firefighters who watched a family home burn down because the owner hadn’t paid the fee — some of these people actually seem to believe the firefighters did the right thing by letting the house burn, with the family’s pets inside.

Nobody exemplifies this disgusting attitude more than the American Family Association’s chief hate monger, Bryan Fischer, who argues that not only was it the right thing to do, it was the Christian thing to do.

According to Fischer, it’s a praiseworthy example of robust, muscular Christian virtues.

The fire department did the right and Christian thing. The right thing, by the way, is also the Christian thing, because there can be no difference between the two. The right thing to do will always be the Christian thing to do, and the Christian thing to do will always be the right thing to do.

If I somehow think the right thing to do is not the Christian thing to do, then I am either confused about what is right or confused about Christianity, or both.

In this case, critics of the fire department are confused both about right and wrong and about Christianity. And it is because they have fallen prey to a weakened, feminized version of Christianity that is only about softer virtues such as compassion and not in any part about the muscular Christian virtues of individual responsibility and accountability.

The Judeo-Christian tradition is clear that we must accept individual responsibility for our own decisions and actions. He who sows to the flesh, we are told, will from the flesh reap corruption. The law of sowing and reaping is a non-repealable law of nature and nature’s God. …

This story illustrates the fundamental difference between a sappy, secularist worldview, which unfortunately too many Christians have adopted, and the mature, robust Judeo-Christian worldview which made America the strongest and most prosperous nation in the world. The secularist wants to excuse and even reward irresponsibility, which eventually makes everybody less safe and less prosperous. A Christian worldview rewards responsibility and stresses individual responsibility and accountability, which in the end makes everybody more safe and more prosperous.

I’m going with mature, robust Christianity on this one.

(Hat tip: Right Wing Watch.)

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255 comments
1 gdalpert  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:10:33am

Next thing you know, these secularists will equate Christianity with caring for the sick and helping beggars.

2 BlackFedora  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:12:04am

Being an ideologue will quickly make you an asshole.

3 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:12:26am

Yup. "Mature, robust Christianity", as personified by Newt Gingrich with his wives, David Vitter in his diapers, Rekers and his rent boy...

4 iossarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:14:29am

Is this for real? It reads like satire.

5 allegro  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:14:51am

Short version:

I am a confused misogynist pecker wagger.

6 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:14:59am

And I, as a liberal, am supposed to be "tolerant" of these people? Fuck that.

7 mr.fusion  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:15:35am

I really can't believe it's come to this

8 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:15:52am

I can't speak for Christians but I think now would be a good time for good Christians to rebuke this asshole. Having been a Catholic of sorts as a child I can tell you that letting the house burn down was anything but "the Christian thing to do".

9 MinisterO  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:16:26am

It is truly amazing, the pretzel logic required to reach this conclusion. Next they'll tell us it's OK to stand by and while a man chokes to death in a restaurant because he didn't pay you in advance for your Heimlich services.

10 bluecheese  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:16:26am

supply-side Jesus Gospel at work here.

Preach it, lol.

11 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:16:51am

re: #7 mr.fusion

I really can't believe it's come to this

I can. Listen to the shit that comes out of right wingers mouths. This is the exact result of their ideology.

12 Summer Seale  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:17:15am

This is what right-wing evangelical Christianity has become: A contortionist's set of wild philosophical rules where the strong justify kicking the weak down further into the dirt; spit on the helpless; mock the infirm; flaunt their money at the poor; fuck the world over in their own selfish interests.

What a piece of work.

13 darthstar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:17:33am

Fuck you, Fischer. And I only say that because, "The right thing to do will always be the Christian thing to do, and the Christian thing to do will always be the right thing to do." And telling you to go fuck yourself is the right thing to do.

14 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:18:01am

It was ethically and morally inexcusable for the fire department to sit idly by. The fire department created a greater risk of loss to nearby properties by failing to act until after the fire had spread to the nearby property.

And that's from this (my) Jewish perspective (you know - the Judeo part of Judeo-Christian). But note too that the Judeo is appended to give cover to something that really isn't part of the Jewish or Christian tradition or ignores a wide swatch of Jewish and Christian traditions - helping thy fellow man in a time of need; charity; etc.

15 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:18:02am
. And it is because they have fallen prey to a weakened, feminized version of Christianity

Yeah, like some kind of pussy Christ that would tell his followers to put down their swords when they tried to protect him. Some dumb-ass wimpy gay Christ that wouldn't even fight back against the Romans and would just, like, accept being put to death.

//

16 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:18:25am

Perhaps he is referring to Jesus' parable about the "Ant and the Grasshopper".

The money shot of the parable is "Prepare for want before it comes"...

Wait!! That was Aesop.

17 iossarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:19:00am

re: #10 bluecheese

supply-side Jesus Gospel at work here.

Preach it, lol.

This is exactly what I thought of when I first read the excerpt (Supply-Side Jesus). I was then going to post something about how Paulian theology is fundamentally based on the idea that man cannot be self-reliant and must instead accept grace in order to be saved, but really, what's the point?

18 TedStriker  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:20:48am

Bryan Fischer, you're not a Christian in any sense of the word, you're just a cold-hearted asshole...

19 mr.fusion  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:21:24am

re: #11 Amory Blaine

I can. Listen to the shit that comes out of right wingers mouths. This is the exact result of their ideology.

But it's so far from the America I remember even 5 years ago......not to be melodramatic or anything....but this is just heartbreaking.

20 bluecheese  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:21:59am

re: #17 iossarian

re: #17 iossarian

.... but really, what's the point?

personal responsibility is the point.

21 iossarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:23:17am

re: #14 lawhawk

The phrase "Judeo-Christian" is rapidly moving up my chart of most-hated buzzwords.

It's basically a lame attempt to give cover to a particularly nasty interpretation of Christianity. People who use the phrase wouldn't know Judaism if it punched them in the mouth.

What with Cantor's revealing slip the other day that Jews tend to vote Democratic because "they want to side with the underdog", you know all you need to know about this travesty.

22 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:23:22am

I guess he decided that being Christian means that one is not his brother's keeper...

23 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:24:03am

re: #8 Gus 802

I can't speak for Christians but I think now would be a good time for good Christians to rebuke this asshole. Having been a Catholic of sorts as a child I can tell you that letting the house burn down was anything but "the Christian thing to do".

Maybe it is the fundi evangelical "christian" thing to do....
One of those Puritan pull yourself up by your bootstraps-if a man does not work he should not eat-no freeloaders allowed- types of work/life ethics?

24 Gus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:24:08am

re: #20 bluecheese

re: #17 iossarian

personal responsibility is the point.

Moses would have charged a toll when he Parted the Red Sea.

/

25 avanti  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:24:13am

This is a interesting Ghandi quotes on Christians:

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

26 iossarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:24:32am

re: #20 bluecheese

I love Supply-Side Jesus, and his twisting of the rich man/eye of needle parable always reminds me of a Terry Pratchett quote:

"No no, you've got it the wrong way round: it's better to live on one's feet than to die on one's knees."

27 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:24:45am

re: #4 iossarian

Is this for real? It reads like satire.

Soon we will have no use for The Onion since it will all be reality.

28 RurouniKenshin  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:25:03am

Sexist reasoning? Check
Circular logic? Check
Hatred for the unfortunate? Check

Yep, it's a modern fundamentalist Christian.

29 mr.fusion  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:25:23am

re: #22 oaktree

I guess he decided that being Christian means that one is not his brother's keeper...

Or that whole "love thy neighbor" thing is only relevant if you're a girly man

30 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:25:28am

re: #24 Gus 802

Moses would have charged a toll when he Parted the Red Sea.

/

Would he have charged Pharaoh's chariots per-axle, or per-hoof?

31 darthstar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:26:03am

re: #29 mr.fusion

Or that whole "love thy neighbor" thing is only relevant if you're a girly man

Or Karen Owen.

32 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:26:24am

ANYONE, particularly one who claims to know the word of God (this man most certainly does not) who can stand by watching animals burn or who can justify such a thing - Oh I can hardly bear to think of it - has more in common with the devil then he does with God. And I don't even believe in the devil.

To me, that was the worst part of what the fire dept did. I don't know how those people sleep at night.

33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:27:03am

Thinking it would be funny, I searched the internets to find a good version of Plastic Jesus... and discovered this amazing musician...

If I were that talented, I would probably want to share my talents on Youtube too.

34 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:27:10am

re: #32 marjoriemoon

ANYONE, particularly one who claims to know the word of God (this man most certainly does not) who can stand by watching animals burn or who can justify such a thing - Oh I can hardly bear to think of it - has more in common with the devil then he does with God. And I don't even believe in the devil.

To me, that was the worst part of what the fire dept did. I don't know how those people sleep at night.

Hopefully in fear of the vengeance of the Feline Overlords.

35 Lidane  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:27:24am
36 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:27:33am

re: #25 avanti

This is a interesting Ghandi quotes on Christians:

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

I didn't realize Ghandi was that old!

37 calochortus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:27:46am

What a piece of work. It all goes back to the research that shows people attribute their own beliefs to God.

38 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:28:11am

re: #9 MinisterO

It is truly amazing, the pretzel logic required to reach this conclusion. Next they'll tell us it's OK to stand by and while a man chokes to death in a restaurant because he didn't pay you in advance for your Heimlich services.

Hey, I don't work for free!!!!!

39 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:28:19am

re: #32 marjoriemoon

ANYONE, particularly one who claims to know the word of God (this man most certainly does not) who can stand by watching animals burn or who can justify such a thing - Oh I can hardly bear to think of it - has more in common with the devil then he does with God. And I don't even believe in the devil.

To me, that was the worst part of what the fire dept did. I don't know how those people sleep at night.

And let us be clear NO ONE is suggesting that firemen rush into a burning building to save animals...what we are saying is that by putting out the fire there was a chance those 3 dogs and one cat could have been saved.
But I guess that's what they get for having an owner who was trying to "game" the system....

40 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:28:41am

Well Paulette Cranik seems to more of a Christian than Bryan Fischer.

Woman doesn't blame firefighters who let home burn

Paulette Cranik said the firefighters who came to the scene were just following orders. Her family had paid the fee in the past but simply forgot it recently. Cranik, 67, said she's just thankful no one was hurt in the fire last week that destroyed the doublewide trailer in rural northwest Tennessee.

"You can't blame them if they have to do what the boss says to do," Cranik told The Associated Press. "I've had firemen call and apologize."

41 sagehen  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:30:37am

I am either confused about what is right or confused about Christianity, or both.

I vote for both, Bryan.

42 calochortus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:31:12am

re: #40 Bubblehead II

Yeah, although we could have a long discussion of just-following-orders.

43 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:31:13am

I am no expert on Christian theology, but I am fairly certain that "turning the other cheek" does not refer to turning your backside to someone in need of assistance.

44 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:32:02am

re: #43 sliv_the_eli

I am no expert on Christian theology, but I am fairly certain that "turning the other cheek" does not refer to turning your backside to someone in need of assistance.

Right. That would be "cheeks".

45 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:32:25am

re: #23 webevintage

The Puritan ethic, if I recall my studies correctly, required one to assist one's neighbor in need.

46 sagehen  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:32:36am

re: #41 sagehen

I am either confused about what is right or confused about Christianity, or both.

I vote for both, Bryan.

p.s.

There's no "judeo" in your version of "judeo-christian." Please to be removing any insinuation that you think Jewish ethics would be okay with this.

47 mr.fusion  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:32:45am

re: #40 Bubblehead II

Well Paulette Cranik seems to more of a Christian than Bryan Fischer.

Woman doesn't blame firefighters who let home burn

Paulette Cranik said the firefighters who came to the scene were just following orders. Her family had paid the fee in the past but simply forgot it recently. Cranik, 67, said she's just thankful no one was hurt in the fire last week that destroyed the doublewide trailer in rural northwest Tennessee.

"You can't blame them if they have to do what the boss says to do," Cranik told The Associated Press. "I've had firemen call and apologize."

She's certainly more forgiving than I would be.....I can't imagine what it must have looked like....a bunch of fireman just standing around watching my house burn to the ground over $75?

Mrs. Cranik must be a pretty amazing woman

48 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:33:43am

re: #40 Bubblehead II

Well Paulette Cranik seems to more of a Christian than Bryan Fischer.

Woman doesn't blame firefighters who let home burn


Maybe she goes to Fishers church.

49 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:34:08am
The right thing, by the way, is also the Christian thing, because there can be no difference between the two. The right thing to do will always be the Christian thing to do, and the Christian thing to do will always be the right thing to do.


Classically circular.

50 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:35:54am

re: #39 webevintage

And let us be clear NO ONE is suggesting that firemen rush into a burning building to save animals...what we are saying is that by putting out the fire there was a chance those 3 dogs and one cat could have been saved.
But I guess that's what they get for having an owner who was trying to "game" the system...

I don't know the details surrounding that, but yes, if the fire was contained quickly, it most likely wouldn't have been a problem.

OTOH, I can guarantee you the owner was standing outside screaming for his animals. It's also not unheard of for a firefighter to risk his/her life to save them.

When my father lost his business, we lost everything and moved in with my grandfather. The house, all the furniture, jewelry, it all went up for auction. In the end, you learn it's just stuff. You can't, however, replace a life you love.

51 sagehen  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:36:36am

re: #23 webevintage

Maybe it is the fundi evangelical "christian" thing to do...
One of those Puritan pull yourself up by your bootstraps-if a man does not work he should not eat-no freeloaders allowed- types of work/life ethics?

Except fetusus. The pre-born have all sorts of special rights above and beyond those accorded to the born.

52 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:36:42am
The fire department did the right and Christian thing. The right thing, by the way, is also the Christian thing, because there can be no difference between the two. The right thing to do will always be the Christian thing to do, and the Christian thing to do will always be the right thing to do.

OMG, these people have lost their minds.


And this:

The Judeo-Christian tradition is clear that we must accept individual responsibility for our own decisions and actions

He seems to have forgotten that accepting individual responsibility for our own decisions and actions ALSO means we accept responsibility for making sure we make the charitable and loving decision to help those in need.

Gah.

53 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:36:44am

It needs to be pointed out that this kind of tragic absurdity is the inevitable consequence of treating essential government services (such as firefighting) as if they were private enterprises.

When you require people to pay a subscription fee to protect their homes against fire, you're creating a situation in which this kind of sickening outcome is unavoidable. How could the system possibly be enforced if the firefighters went ahead and extinguished fires in homes owned by people who hadn't paid up?

This is a very bad road to travel, and it has consequences for society that go far beyond one house burning down.

54 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:37:54am

re: #47 mr.fusion

A true Christian. I, on the other hand, have no forgiveness for the firefighters "just following orders" while they stood around and watched an elderly couple's home burn. Every one of them should be fired and prohibited from ever again claiming to be a firefigher.

55 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:38:11am

Mr. Fischer feels HE is the one who deserves compassion:

I talked about this story yesterday on my “Focal Point” radio program, and defended the fire department without reservation. It’s been intriguing to watch - I haven’t received as much angry blowback over anything I’ve said on air since the program began. I’ve been told I’m evil and anti-Christian to even suggest that the fire department may be in the right and that Mr. Cranick has no one to blame but himself. (Where, I might ask, is all their Christian compassion toward me?)
56 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:39:02am

re: #55 wrenchwench

Mr. Fischer feels HE is the one who deserves compassion:
(Where, I might ask, is all their Christian compassion toward me?)


hahahahahaha
What an asshole....

57 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:39:07am

re: #53 Charles

It needs to pointed out that this kind of tragic absurdity is the inevitable consequence of treating essential government services (such as firefighting) as if they were private enterprises.

When you require people to pay a subscription fee to protect their homes against fire, you're creating a situation in which this kind of sickening outcome is unavoidable. How could the system possibly be enforced if the firefighters went ahead and extinguished fires in homes owned by people who hadn't paid up?

This is a very bad road to travel, and it has consequences for society that go far beyond one house burning down.

Where I live - the city provides fire protection service within city limits.
I live outside the city limits and my fire protection is provided by a "fire protection district", which requires that I pay an annual fee. It's not much, about $50 a year or so. But I have no clue what would happen if someone didn't pay the fee - I have to assume some folks fail to pay it, but I've never heard of any fire going unfought.

58 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:39:11am

re: #55 wrenchwench

A boot on his neck would be too much compassion.

59 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:39:25am

re: #40 Bubblehead II

Well Paulette Cranik seems to more of a Christian than Bryan Fischer.

Woman doesn't blame firefighters who let home burn

Paulette Cranik said the firefighters who came to the scene were just following orders. Her family had paid the fee in the past but simply forgot it recently. Cranik, 67, said she's just thankful no one was hurt in the fire last week that destroyed the doublewide trailer in rural northwest Tennessee.

"You can't blame them if they have to do what the boss says to do," Cranik told The Associated Press. "I've had firemen call and apologize."

Well, wasn't it her son who cold-cocked the fire chief? Now that's some religion right there! I'm not a violent person, but that must have felt really good.

60 MinisterO  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:39:33am

Taking satisfaction in the suffering of another that you deem deserved is called Schadenfreude. Only a sociopath would embrace it as a virtue.

61 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:40:28am

By the way, when I click through to the article, the page is black unless I highlight the text. Does this have some significance?

62 calochortus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:40:36am

re: #56 webevintage

hahahahahaha
What an asshole...

What she said...

63 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:41:32am

re: #60 MinisterO

It does seem directly contradictory to the advice for Christians in Matthew 7

64 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:41:42am

It's kind of ironic that, if you remove all mention of Christianity - muscular or otherwise - from Fischer's piece, he'd still be making a specious argument.

First, like a broken clock being right twice a day, he's not completely wrong about the homeowner. The gentleman does and did have a responsibility to protect his home, his family, and his pets. He could have done that by paying the subscription dues of $75.

That's the end of Fischer's being correct.

However, the fire department had a moral responsibility - once they'd responded - to put out the fire and deal with the legal and financial issues after the fact. So, no Mr. Fischer, the fire department is not off the hook. They abrogated their responsibility as well.

So did the county commissioners of Obion county. They are responsible for the well-being of their constituents, and the subscription option they used to keep the county taxes lower (most likely) was an abrogation of their responsibilities - so they're not off the hook either.

The problem with Fischer is the rather simple minded conclusion that only the homeowner had a responsibility here.

The only group I may - and I stress may - get a pass from me would be the city council of South Fulton. After all, they'd be wrong to fund the fire department from city taxes, and then use that department to fight fires in the county where people would be receiving the service for free - paid for by the residents of the city.

But even here, I think the city council and mayor came up with a problematic (i.e. subscription) method for covering folks outside the city limits. I would have preferred, were I a resident, that the council work with the county commissioners to find a better way. Their decision to offer a subscription service led to this situation - an unintended consequence.

The city council may have been better off telling the county commissioners that the cost of providing fire service to county residents would be X dollars per year, and leaving it up to the county commissioners to figure out how to fund it - or form their own fire brigade.

65 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:42:09am

re: #61 wrenchwench

By the way, when I click through to the article, the page is black unless I highlight the text. Does this have some significance?

I get the same thing.
Are you supposed to have the sekret code to read the page?
If so, they didn't do a good job of it . . .

66 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:42:28am

re: #46 sagehen

p.s.

There's no "judeo" in your version of "judeo-christian." Please to be removing any insinuation that you think Jewish ethics would be okay with this.

In one of the comments on his site, someone mentioned that the "Judeo-Christianity" has nothing to do with it, but rather a strict libertarian rightwing viewpoint. He's gotten his political views all mixed up with this religion.

Amen, brother.

67 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:42:51am

re: #61 wrenchwench

By the way, when I click through to the article, the page is black unless I highlight the text. Does this have some significance?

I noticed that - it could be just inept HTML coding, or maybe he changed the text color to match the background because he thought he could hide it that way. Which is pretty stupid, but then Fischer is pretty stupid.

68 sagehen  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:42:52am

re: #57 reine.de.tout

Where I live - the city provides fire protection service within city limits.
I live outside the city limits and my fire protection is provided by a "fire protection district", which requires that I pay an annual fee. It's not much, about $50 a year or so. But I have no clue what would happen if someone didn't pay the fee - I have to assume some folks fail to pay it, but I've never heard of any fire going unfought.

Assuming you live in a rational and sane place (is that a fair assumption?), they'll send you a few reminder notices, and if you're still not paying up they'll eventually attach it as a lien on your house (plus interest), just like any other unpaid property tax.

69 calochortus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:43:21am

re: #63 jaunte

It does seem directly contradictory to the advice for Christians in Matthew 7

Yeah, but that's from the Wimpy Bible./ I wonder how that Conservative Bible Project (or whatever Schlafly calls it) is coming along?

70 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:43:57am

re: #57 reine.de.tout

Where I live - the city provides fire protection service within city limits.
I live outside the city limits and my fire protection is provided by a "fire protection district", which requires that I pay an annual fee. It's not much, about $50 a year or so. But I have no clue what would happen if someone didn't pay the fee - I have to assume some folks fail to pay it, but I've never heard of any fire going unfought.

I suspect that this happens all the time but this is a rare occasion that the firefighters showed up and refused to put out the fire. I suspect they usually put out the fire and bill the homeowner. It's amazingly callous to let the man's house burn and refuse to help and I suspect very few people are that heartless.

71 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:44:13am

re: #64 subsailor68

I think fire departments should be used to put out fires, and not to enforce collection of taxes and fees.

72 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:44:19am

re: #68 sagehen

Assuming you live in a rational and sane place (is that a fair assumption?), they'll send you a few reminder notices, and if you're still not paying up they'll eventually attach it as a lien on your house (plus interest), just like any other unpaid property tax.

Well ...
I like where I live, I think it's a rational and sane place, but it is, after all, in the dreaded south . . . SpaceJesus might take exception to my assessment.

73 JeffM70  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:45:02am

These people are nihilists. After all why did Jesus help the poor? If they weren't lazy drunks, they could have helped themselves. What a sappy secularist he was.

74 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:45:09am

re: #64 subsailor68

It's kind of ironic that, if you remove all mention of Christianity - muscular or otherwise - from Fischer's piece, he'd still be making a specious argument.

First, like a broken clock being right twice a day, he's not completely wrong about the homeowner. The gentleman does and did have a responsibility to protect his home, his family, and his pets. He could have done that by paying the subscription dues of $75.

With all due respect, you're wrong.

You ever have a payment lost when you paid the bill? Never received by the company?

Ever not receive notice of a payment due?

Not paying for PUBLIC services in your taxes is nothing short of insane and any one of these things can happen, other than the more common one of "I forgot."

75 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:45:13am

re: #71 jaunte

I think fire departments should be used to put out fires, and not to enforce collection of taxes and fees.

I agree completely! That should be, and is, the responsibility of the county commissioners (for the county) and the city council (for the city).

76 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:45:57am

re: #65 reine.de.tout

I get the same thing.
Are you supposed to have the sekret code to read the page?
If so, they didn't do a good job of it . . .

re: #67 Charles

I noticed that - it could be just inept HTML coding, or maybe he changed the text color to match the background because he thought he could hide it that way. Which is pretty stupid, but then Fischer is pretty stupid.

I thought maybe his website peered into my soul or something....

77 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:46:07am

re: #73 JeffM70

These people are nihilists. After all why did Jesus help the poor? If they weren't lazy drunks, they could have helped themselves. What a sappy secularist he was.

LOL It's true they are nihilists.

78 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:46:09am

re: #61 wrenchwench

By the way, when I click through to the article, the page is black unless I highlight the text. Does this have some significance?

Take your mouse from near the top, hold down the left mouse button and highlight the whole thing down the page. Then you can read it.

79 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:46:17am

Just checked some other articles at Fischer's blog and they all have the text set to black.

80 calochortus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:46:55am

The problem for the fire department is that when they responded to fires in the county regardless of whether people had paid their $75, is that apparently half the people didn't pay. The "honor system" didn't work. I think that's a great argument for a tax or a fee or whatever you want to call it.

81 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:47:08am

The family should have paid the consequences of not paying the $75, absolutely. How about a penalty of another bill, with a kicker? Whatever happens as 'punishment' it does not matter.

Once the firefighters showed up they should have put out the fire. This is just insane. This is fundamentalist paleoconservative dogma, not practical conservatism.

The 'Christian thing' to do would have been to put out the damn fire.

82 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:47:10am

Yeah, it was Christian of Christ not to feed 5,000 people with his loaves and fishes. It was their RESPONSIBILITY to bring food.

It was Christian of Christ not to heal the blind and the lepers. They should just rise above their problems, and besides, it's a sign of sin that they were blind or leprous in the first place. (As opposed to being a sign of genetics, parasites, or viruses.)

It was Christian of Christ not to die for us. Our sins are our problems, and it would just encourage us to sin again if we could repent.

Mr. Fischer? This Christianity you speak of? I do not recognize it.

83 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:47:31am

I also get the feeling that Fischer's "robust Christianity" isn't that far from Fred Phelp's "God Hates..." ideology.

84 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:47:57am

Black writing on a black background. Have to highlight text to read his own words. What a fucking coward.

85 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:48:16am

I hope they sue the hell out of the county, take whatever money they get from that and their insurance and get the hellouta Dodge.

86 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:49:51am

re: #74 marjoriemoon

With all due respect, you're wrong.

You ever have a payment lost when you paid the bill? Never received by the company?

Ever not receive notice of a payment due?

Not paying for PUBLIC services in your taxes is nothing short of insane and any one of these things can happen, other than the more common one of "I forgot."

Actually, I don't disagree with you on that as a general observation. But, IIRC, according to the article I read, the homeowner knew he hadn't paid the subscription. But, I'd also agree with ya that - if the council/fire district - or whoever was tasked to handle finances - never sent follow-on notices that he was behind in his fees, they blew it as well.

As to your final point, we agree there as well. Clearly, the subscription policy is nuts, and the county needs to find a way to provide these services and fund them from the property tax.

87 iossarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:50:01am

More of Fischer's take on homosexuality here:

[Link: action.afa.net...]

88 elizajane  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:50:52am

re: #53 Charles

It needs to pointed out that this kind of tragic absurdity is the inevitable consequence of treating essential government services (such as firefighting) as if they were private enterprises.

When you require people to pay a subscription fee to protect their homes against fire, you're creating a situation in which this kind of sickening outcome is unavoidable. How could the system possibly be enforced if the firefighters went ahead and extinguished fires in homes owned by people who hadn't paid up?

This is a very bad road to travel, and it has consequences for society that go far beyond one house burning down.

Would this be kind of like the people who say that emergency rooms shouldn't treat illegal immigrants because they haven't paid taxes (even though many of them have)?

I thought so.

Taxes are bad. People who don't pay them are bad. People who don't want to pay taxes for services but then don't pay private subscriptions are also bad. Where's the end of bad? Only at personal responsibility, like Christ said. Because He certainly never showed responsibility for anybody but himself.

89 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:51:17am

re: #81 BigPapa

The family should have paid the consequences of not paying the $75, absolutely. How about a penalty of another bill, with a kicker? Whatever happens as 'punishment' it does not matter.

Once the firefighters showed up they should have put out the fire. This is just insane. This is fundamentalist paleoconservative dogma, not practical conservatism.

The 'Christian thing' to do would have been to put out the damn fire.

Btw, when they talk about "the Christian thing to do" it basically means the rest of us don't have any morals and I find that deeply offensive.

The family DID pay the consequences of not paying the fee. Their house burned down! That's was the consequence.

Put the fire out and fine them later. What was the big deal?

90 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:52:52am

re: #89 marjoriemoon

Btw, when they talk about "the Christian thing to do" it basically means the rest of us don't have any morals and I find that deeply offensive.

The family DID pay the consequences of not paying the fee. Their house burned down! That's was the consequence.

Put the fire out and fine them later. What was the big deal?

Bingo! Absolutely right on.

91 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:53:27am

re: #89 marjoriemoon

Put the fire out and fine them later. What was the big deal?


One problem seems to be that the city is incompetent at following up to collect the money that they're owed.

92 JeffM70  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:53:30am

What nonsense is all this stuff in the Bible?

"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. "

"Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God."

"Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others."

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. "

93 Jadespring  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:54:14am

re: #74 marjoriemoon

With all due respect, you're wrong.

You ever have a payment lost when you paid the bill? Never received by the company?

Ever not receive notice of a payment due?

Not paying for PUBLIC services in your taxes is nothing short of insane and any one of these things can happen, other than the more common one of "I forgot."

Yep I have had a payment lost then the notice of a missed payment never came because the postal worker on my route screwed up (lied, he dumped mail, guy WAS fired because of this...)

Came close to losing my house because of a line of other peoples screw ups and generally bad work procedures. Took a month and a lawyer to sort it out a pile of shyte which wasn't my fault at all.

94 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:55:03am

re: #71 jaunte

Please don't give the government any ideas. They are desperately in need of additional tax revenues.

95 Sinistershade  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:55:07am

Yeah! We need more "butch" Christianity. Motorcycle jackets, handlebar mustaches, leather chaps . . . oh . . . wait . . .

96 pharmmajor  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:56:00am

Wow... Fischer is f*cking scum.

97 mr.fusion  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:56:08am

re: #82 Emmmieg

Yeah, it was Christian of Christ not to feed 5,000 people with his loaves and fishes. It was their RESPONSIBILITY to bring food.

Seriously, didn't he realize he was just making these people too lazy to get bread and fish on their own?

98 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:56:18am

re: #86 subsailor68

Actually, I don't disagree with you on that as a general observation. But, IIRC, according to the article I read, the homeowner knew he hadn't paid the subscription. But, I'd also agree with ya that - if the council/fire district - or whoever was tasked to handle finances - never sent follow-on notices that he was behind in his fees, they blew it as well.

As to your final point, we agree there as well. Clearly, the subscription policy is nuts, and the county needs to find a way to provide these services and fund them from the property tax.

It doesn't really matter if he knows, doesn't know or doesn't care about the fee. Maybe he's too stupid (and I really mean that, like a low IQ) to know the consequences of such an action. That's why when you own a home, it's not something you should have to think about.

"Love they neighbor".... except when they don't pay the $75 fee, then they should all burn to death in a fire.

What about that? What if it happened in the middle of the night and no one could get out of the house? They're passed out on the floor and the fire dept can't go in and look?

If I was stupid enough to live in this assbackwards city, I would walk my payment down to the city office and watch them put it in the system. I'd take no chances of even mailing it.

99 sffilk  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:56:46am

re: #21 iossarian

The phrase "Judeo-Christian" is rapidly moving up my chart of most-hated buzzwords.

It's basically a lame attempt to give cover to a particularly nasty interpretation of Christianity. People who use the phrase wouldn't know Judaism if it punched them in the mouth.

What with Cantor's revealing slip the other day that Jews tend to vote Democratic because "they want to side with the underdog", you know all you need to know about this travesty.

I quite agree with what you say. Up until 1965, "Judeo-Christian" included the following statement: "The Jews killed Jesus." Now how is that Judeo?

100 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:57:25am

I am going to warn you now this is a bit of a tear-jerker. It's about my church working with another faith in a charitable effort for some children. (If you're wondering why they produced the video, they're trying to get us to donate more so they can do more good.)

101 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:57:35am

re: #94 sliv_the_eli

That is the scary part of this story. The fire chief used the authority of his government position to force his employees to punish an 'uncooperative' taxpayer.

102 Interesting Times  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:58:20am

re: #92 JeffM70

What nonsense is all this stuff in the Bible?

"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. "

"Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God."

"Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others."

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. "

That's the weakened, feminized, secular-socialist bible. The robust, muscular one you're supposed to follow is here.

/

103 Batman  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:58:44am

The next time someone's life is in danger, I will run not because I'm a pussy (I totally am), but because it's the Right/Christian Thing To Do.

104 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:59:05am

Consider the lillies of the field: they neither sow nor reap, therefore they should be bulldozed

105 sliv_the_eli  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:59:21am

re: #80 calochortus

The solution is simple, create a significant enough penalty to prevent free-riding. For example, the same legislation that authorizes the fee can provide that if a person fails to pay and has to be provided with the service for which he/she did not pay, that person must bear the entire cost of the service. In this particular case, for example, the homeowner would be charged the entire actual cost of the firefighters showing up and putting out the fire (labor, materials, water usage, etc.)

106 avanti  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 10:59:22am

re: #79 Charles

Just checked some other articles at Fischer's blog and they all have the text set to black.

Looks like he's being attacked on the AFA web site now.
"Standing By While a House Burns Down Isn't Christlike, No Matter What Some People Say"

AFA.

107 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:00:24am

re: #53 Charles

I'd disagree that it was inevitable. The policy in this locality had gone on for 20 years and this was the first instance. Someone would have to go through the news reports from around the country to find other examples - even though fee-based subscriptions to fire protection is something that many unincorporated areas around the country deal with.

The problem here is that the fire department opted not to act when it was present at the scene of an active fire when it should have.

It was inevitable that the incident would occur because of a decision by the fire chief not to fight the fire when the fee wasn't paid, even though the decision could have resulted in an out-of-control fire that would have been beyond the means of the firefighters on scene to contain, causing damage to far more properties, including those that had paid the fee.

Moreover, fire departments around the country routinely fight fires on properties that have been abandoned and do not pay their taxes. It's because it is not only the morally and ethically prudent thing to do, but it's a protection to those properties that have paid their taxes.

The difference in fighting those kinds of fires is that the fire departments wont try to fight the fires from the interiors to save as much of the property involved in the fire itself but rather engage in containment to prevent its spread to adjacent properties.

108 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:01:04am

The problem with people like Fischer is that they think that the red words (the ones Jesus said) in the bible are "not really rules...more like "guidelines".

(make sure you say the quoted words like a pirate.)

109 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:01:07am

re: #93 Jadespring

Yep I have had a payment lost then the notice of a missed payment never came because the postal worker on my route screwed up (lied, he dumped mail, guy WAS fired because of this...)

Came close to losing my house because of a line of other peoples screw ups and generally bad work procedures. Took a month and a lawyer to sort it out a pile of shyte which wasn't my fault at all.

Once when I moved across the county, my mail came for about a month, no problem and then suddenly stopped. All my mail was being returned "No forwarding address". I had the post master from each of the post offices in the county at my doorstep checking my mail, but no one could fix it. It went on for 8 months. I had to call my bill collectors each month for my balance to be sure I paid. My stock was escheated. It was a nightmare.

You know who fixed it? Congresswoman Carrie Meek. I wrote her office and in less than a week, I got my mail.

110 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:01:50am

re: #98 marjoriemoon

It doesn't really matter if he knows, doesn't know or doesn't care about the fee. Maybe he's too stupid (and I really mean that, like a low IQ) to know the consequences of such an action. That's why when you own a home, it's not something you should have to think about.

"Love they neighbor"... except when they don't pay the $75 fee, then they should all burn to death in a fire.

What about that? What if it happened in the middle of the night and no one could get out of the house? They're passed out on the floor and the fire dept can't go in and look?

If I was stupid enough to live in this assbackwards city, I would walk my payment down to the city office and watch them put it in the system. I'd take no chances of even mailing it.

Yep, once again, you and I are on the same page.

First, regardless of what assbackward policy was in place, the fire department should have put out the fire.

Second, if the fire service had been funded by property taxes, even a guy with a single digit I.Q. would have been covered, even if he was behind in his own property taxes.

Third, I'd be walking down with you to pay my subscription. Heck, I'd probably go one step further and have my picture taken handing the check to the fire chief (or whoever).

;-)

111 shades  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:03:09am

"feminized" version of Christianity. So being a woman is a bad thing? In this fool's mind is Jesus decked out like Rambo? Oh silly me, these are "Christian" men. I'm supposed to be barefoot, pregnant and mute.

112 MinisterO  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:03:09am

I think a lot of people are ignoring the fact that allowing the house to burn was bad economics. One way or another the cost of allowing that capital to be destroyed will largely fall on taxpayers. The only rational thing to do is to put out the fire and bill the homeowner for the actual cost.

113 mikhailtheplumber  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:03:09am

I would have expected the AFA chief to know his Bible. After all, he thumps it so often... maybe he just looks at the funny pictures?

114 blueraven  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:03:12am

Well didn't you all know that while Jesus was roaming around healing the sick, the disciples went before him and collected the healing fees? The family of Lazarus had to pay extra for special services.

115 pharmmajor  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:03:23am

Again, I feel the need for some common sense in the wake of this fiasco:

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

...I have no problem with this kind of opt-in government in principle — especially in rural areas where individual need for government services and available infrastructure vary so widely. But forget the politics: what moral theory allows these firefighters (admittedly acting under orders) to watch this house burn to the ground when 1) they have already responded to the scene; 2) they have the means to stop it ready at hand; 3) they have a reasonable expectation to be compensated for their trouble?

The counterargument is, of course, that this kind of system only works if there are consequences for opting out. For the firefighters to have put out the blaze would have opened up a big moral hazard and generated a bunch of future free-riding — a lot like how the ban on denying coverage based on preexisting conditions, paired with penalties under the individual mandate that are lower than the going premiums, would lead to folks waiting until they got sick to buy insurance.

But that analogy is not quite apt. Mr. Cranick, who has learned an incredibly expensive lesson about risk, wasn’t offering to pay the $75 fee. He was offering to pay whatever it cost to put out the fire. If an uninsured man confronted with the pressing need for a heart transplant offered to pay a year in back-premiums to an insurer to cover the operation, you’d be right to laugh at him. But imagine if that man broke out his check book to pay for the whole shebang, and hospital administrators denied him the procedure to teach him a lesson.

I’m a conservative with fairly libertarian leanings, but this is a kind of government for which I would not sign up.

116 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:03:23am

Keep in mind that suburban cargo cults like AFA are largely dependent on voluntary donations they solicit in the name of charity, altruism, and other "feminized" ideas for which they apparently have no real regard. Where is the muscular, robust sense of personal responsibility in giving money to a bunch of soft-handed preachers when one could use it to advance your family's long-term security, social status and general comfort level?

117 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:03:51am

re: #110 subsailor68

Yep, once again, you and I are on the same page.

First, regardless of what assbackward policy was in place, the fire department should have put out the fire.

Second, if the fire service had been funded by property taxes, even a guy with a single digit I.Q. would have been covered, even if he was behind in his own property taxes.

Third, I'd be walking down with you to pay my subscription. Heck, I'd probably go one step further and have my picture taken handing the check to the fire chief (or whoever).

A big ass check like when you win the Masters.

;-)

118 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:03:55am

re: #100 Emmmieg

I am going to warn you now this is a bit of a tear-jerker. It's about my church working with another faith in a charitable effort for some children. (If you're wondering why they produced the video, they're trying to get us to donate more so they can do more good.)


[Video]

I'll watch tonight, but in the meanwhile. ((((emmie)))) and your church, too! :)

119 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:04:07am

re: #111 shades

"feminized" version of Christianity. So being a woman is a bad thing?


It means you have a vagina and everyone knows what having a vagina leads too...
/

120 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:04:44am

re: #119 webevintage

It means you have a vagina and everyone knows what having a vagina leads too...
/

Being bossy?
/

121 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:04:59am

re: #102 publicityStunted

That's the weakened, feminized, secular-socialist bible. The robust, muscular one you're supposed to follow is here.

/

OMG that was funny. There's an Onion story in there somewhere.

122 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:05:29am

re: #121 marjoriemoon

OMG that was funny. There's an Onion story in there somewhere.

Reality is now an Onion story....

123 BongCrodny  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:05:38am

Jesus may have died on the cross...but I'll bet he took a couple dozen of them fuckers with him before he went!

//

124 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:06:42am

bbiam

125 darthstar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:07:46am

Damn...I was hoping to sit at home wearing nothing but my Giant's snuggie and watch the game, but my wife's best friend called and has an extra ticket...woe is me...I'm going to the playoffs (where I'll have to be fully clothed).

126 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:08:17am

re: #125 darthstar

TMI, but have fun!

127 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:09:05am

re: #117 Cannadian Club Akbar

A big ass check like when you win the Masters.

LOL! Here''s me paying my fire subscription fee for the year:

[Link: www.fadysbeih.com...]

128 Jadespring  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:09:19am

re: #109 marjoriemoon

Once when I moved across the county, my mail came for about a month, no problem and then suddenly stopped. All my mail was being returned "No forwarding address". I had the post master from each of the post offices in the county at my doorstep checking my mail, but no one could fix it. It went on for 8 months. I had to call my bill collectors each month for my balance to be sure I paid. My stock was escheated. It was a nightmare.

You know who fixed it? Congresswoman Carrie Meek. I wrote her office and in less than a week, I got my mail.

Ugh. Mine was a nightmare as well. I didn't know anything was wrong until a process server showed up on my doorstep with court papers that said, pay up or we're taking the house back in 14 days. It got into the muddle because of a bank screw up, the postal worker and what I soon discovered dealing with a mortgage company that in the 'biz' is consider predatory. Any excuse and they'll go after a property. So they tried to make contact but not very hard, plus while they were enacting the court stuff they still took my mortgage payments for three months after the screwed one and just held them, so my records showed payments being made which made me none the wiser.
They were really brutal and tried to get more money then they were owed.

Total mess. I had to get a lawyer to do some sort of stop action thing under some sort of consumer protection thing until the mess was sorted. They finally backed down when my lawyer threatened to sue them.

129 Amory Blaine  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:10:47am

A country run by fiscal conservatives and enforced by social conservatives would be hell on earth.

130 MinisterO  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:11:37am

The consequence of not paying the $75 is paying the actual cost of saving your home. This concept does not require thousands of words to explain.

What does take a lot of words is rationalizing the righteous satisfaction in letting a house burn down.

131 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:12:14am

Pardon me for one more video, but I have to say that I am certainly glad that this man in the video received no help because...

*looks left, looks right, whispers*

It's obviously set in America, and he's a...a...furriner...

132 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:12:28am

Economic fun with Newt Gingrich:
Gingrich Can’t Figure Out Why Food Stamps Are Stimulative: ‘I Don’t Understand…Liberal Math’
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

GINGRICH: Well, you know, I carry around a bumper sticker that says 2 plus 2 equals 4. So I’d be very curious how a dollar given to somebody becomes a $1.79. And I think if we could get that to work with the U.S. Treasuries, so if people gave the Treasury $1,000, it became $1,790, we could pay off the federal debt and never worry about spending or anything. I mean, I — you know, somehow, I don’t understand how liberal math turns $1 into $1.79.

Of course Gingrich is a moron (well he's actually a lying asshole since we know he knows this stuff...I hate smart people acting stupid to connect with stupid people in the electorate):

Money from the program — officially known as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program — percolates quickly through the economy. The U.S. Department of Agriculture calculates that for every $5 of food-stamp spending, there is $9.20 of total economic activity, as grocers and farmers pay their employees and suppliers, who in turn shop and pay their bills.
While other stimulus money has been slow to circulate, the food-stamp boost is almost immediate, with 80% of the benefits being redeemed within two weeks of receipt and 97% within a month, the USDA says.

133 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:13:11am

I just want to say that I believe lots of churches are out doing good. We just have a video-making team.

134 dragonfire1981  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:14:29am

Personally I think Jesus would have done everything in his power to save that house. Jesus always put the needs of others for himself and always advocated helping out those who are less fortunate than you.

Maybe these people worship a different Jesus than the one I know.

135 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:15:19am

This sort of bad stingy behavior would have meant no lend-lease program in the dark days of early WW2:

Here is an excerpt from FDR's speech on that:

Seeking public support, FDR likened lend-lease to a fire hose lent to a neighbor to put out a fire, after which the hose is returned. “What do I do in such a crisis?” the president asked at a press conference. “I don’t say, ... ‘Neighbor, my garden hose cost me $15; you have to pay me $15 for it’ ... I don’t want $15 — I want my garden hose back after the fire is over.”


Link

This kind of degeneracy could lead to big bad results if it spreads.

136 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:16:01am

re: #19 mr.fusion

But it's so far from the America I remember even 5 years ago...not to be melodramatic or anything...but this is just heartbreaking.

Not to pick on you, but you just weren't paying attention to these creeps 5 years ago. I've been acquainted with them since they shut down Wichita, KS with their lunatic anti-abortion "protests" starting in 1991:

[Link: www.patrioticthunder.com...]

read it and weep that the GOP has allowed itself to be overtaken by these nuts.

137 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:17:11am

re: #110 subsailor68

Yep, once again, you and I are on the same page.

First, regardless of what assbackward policy was in place, the fire department should have put out the fire.

Second, if the fire service had been funded by property taxes, even a guy with a single digit I.Q. would have been covered, even if he was behind in his own property taxes.

Third, I'd be walking down with you to pay my subscription. Heck, I'd probably go one step further and have my picture taken handing the check to the fire chief (or whoever).

;-)

Definitely not a bad idea.

I hope you realize, I wasn't yelling or scolding you. This is just one of those things that get me really upset and then I start to rant a bit.

138 Henchman Ghazi-808  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:18:06am

Maybe they should burn other homes down to teach delinquents a good lesson. It's the Christian thing to do.

139 nines09  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:18:19am

What a dolt. If that's Christianity, let me off.

140 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:18:26am

re: #125 darthstar

Damn...I was hoping to sit at home wearing nothing but my Giant's snuggie and watch the game, but my wife's best friend called and has an extra ticket...woe is me...I'm going to the playoffs (where I'll have to be fully clothed).

Well, you don't HAVE to be....

Is that your handsome mug in your avatar??

141 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:19:02am

"Love your neighbor."

— Jesus

142 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:19:15am

I have a plan. Let's buy a foreclosed home there cheap. Get insurance. Pay the $75. Torch the place!! Collect insurance!!!
///

143 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:20:23am

re: #136 funky chicken

Nice Randall Terry quotation on that page:

"Let a wave of intolerance wash over you.

I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good…

Our goal is a Christian Nation... we have a biblical duty,

we are called by God to conquer this country.

We don't want equal time. We don't want Pluralism. We want theocracy.

Theocracy means God rules….”

-- Randall Terry,

Founder of Operation Rescue,

The News Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Aug 16, 1993

144 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:20:36am

re: #141 Ojoe

"Love your neighbor."

— Jesus

Only if your neighbor's credit rating is above 720 and he doesn't do anything to reduce property values.

145 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:20:57am
The right thing to do will always be the Christian thing to do, and the Christian thing to do will always be the right thing to do.

2000 years of history proves how completely wrong that statement is.

146 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:20:57am

re: #137 marjoriemoon

Definitely not a bad idea.

I hope you realize, I wasn't yelling or scolding you. This is just one of those things that get me really upset and then I start to rant a bit.

Nope - never crossed my mind at all. Your focus on the fire department's lack of responsibility and the lunacy of a "subscription" approach was exactly what i was thinking as well!

147 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:21:44am

re: #128 Jadespring

Awful story! How easily your life can be ruined by clerical areas (usually the case).

I got lucky because my mom mailed something to me the second month I moved and the letter was returned. She called me wondering if I had moved, yet again. That's when I realized I hadn't received my bills that month.

148 iossarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:22:15am

re: #141 Ojoe

Since the full line is "love thy neighbor as thyself" and these people seem to have the self-hatred thing down, maybe they're not as far off as we think.

149 darthstar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:23:09am
150 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:23:44am

re: #149 darthstar

Image: ticket.jpg

I hate you.
/

151 darthstar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:24:03am

re: #142 Cannadian Club Akbar

I have a plan. Let's buy a foreclosed home there cheap. Get insurance. Pay the $75. Torch the place!! Collect insurance!!!
///

Don't pay the $75...they'll put the damn thing out and you'll have a house that's under water...in two ways.

152 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:24:51am

re: #149 darthstar

Image: ticket.jpg

Now all we need is an ultra-high resolution satellite, and we can stalk you!

(Or not. I have better things to do, like take care of that horrible build-up of Milky Ways I have in the closet.)

153 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:25:48am

In fact, and in most jurisdictions, the homeowner would have owed the real cost of fightng the fire and he would have been billed. In this case, the city apparently believed they had little chance of collecting so they refused the service. A government agency that cannot collect money it is legitimately owed is, itself, grossly irresponsible and incompetent.
Other irresponsible parties include the county and the state of Tennessee, who apparently have failed to provide any plan for providing this service in rural areas. In Texas, it is an impeachable offense for county commissioners to fail to provide such services in their jurisdictions.

154 darthstar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:25:54am

re: #152 Emmmieg

Now all we need is an ultra-high resolution satellite, and we can stalk you!

(Or not. I have better things to do, like take care of that horrible build-up of Milky Ways I have in the closet.)

I'm charging my Flip Mino HD so I'll be able to create a video of the game...

155 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:26:07am

re: #151 darthstar

Don't pay the $75...they'll put the damn thing out and you'll have a house that's under water...in two ways.

They won't put it out with my ebil plan!!

156 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:26:07am

re: #107 lawhawk

A local TV report cited another instance 3 yrs ago. There's some history of city-city-county stuff going on.

157 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:26:25am

re: #53 Charles

It needs to be pointed out that this kind of tragic absurdity is the inevitable consequence of treating essential government services (such as firefighting) as if they were private enterprises.

When you require people to pay a subscription fee to protect their homes against fire, you're creating a situation in which this kind of sickening outcome is unavoidable. How could the system possibly be enforced if the firefighters went ahead and extinguished fires in homes owned by people who hadn't paid up?

This is a very bad road to travel, and it has consequences for society that go far beyond one house burning down.

Hopefully a few folks in KY will reconsider their support for Rand Paul.

158 darthstar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:28:37am

Obama to veto Notarizations bill (which the banks, of course, loved)

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

159 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:29:03am

It's very interesting that this highly localized and perhaps quirky news item has been such a grabber on LGF and the rest of the web. Hard to find a better parable from the Gospel of St. Ayn.

160 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:30:01am

re: #158 darthstar

Obama to veto Notarizations bill (which the banks, of course, loved)

[Link: www.whitehouse.gov...]

OMG!!!!!
Why does he keep picking on banks and Wall Street?
Won't anyone think of the poor pinata hedge fund managers?!!?
/

161 mr.fusion  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:30:17am

re: #136 funky chicken

Not to pick on you, but you just weren't paying attention to these creeps 5 years ago. I've been acquainted with them since they shut down Wichita, KS with their lunatic anti-abortion "protests" starting in 1991:

[Link: www.patrioticthunder.com...]

read it and weep that the GOP has allowed itself to be overtaken by these nuts.

Oh, pick away.....

I don't mean to imply that there haven't been nuts around since forever......but I just can't imagine that something like this would have happened before 2008. Just like I can't imagine individuals like Carl Paladino, Christine O'Donnell, or Rick Scott winning a major party nomination before 2008.

I'm not really a "sky is falling" kind of person.......but something very strange is going on. I just pray that its a very vocal yet very small minority that is just making it feel like the whole country is going nuts

162 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:30:39am

re: #143 wrenchwench

I hope it's a fabricated quote, but I fear it's not. And people want to join this guy's organization? Really, it's pretty hard to see much difference between Randall Terry and some Al Q imam.

163 BlackFedora  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:31:08am

re: #159 Decatur Deb

Updinged for St. Ayn. I gave Objectivism a try in college. Not a good idea.

164 Nick Schroeder  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:31:28am

This guy is a disgusting failure at anything remotely resembling humanity.

165 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:33:04am

Love thy nieghbor as thyself...
Do unto others...etc..
Greater love hath no man than
to lay down his life for another.

I know nothing of this person Bryan Fischer...
But if it's "Fruits"we must look for...this dudes a dead tree!!

166 Political Atheist  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:34:25am

As much as this example shows the foolhardiness of what we might have with Rand Paul style privatization, it also serves as a huge example of city and county government dysfunction.

I wonder what happens if you call the Fire Department in Bell, California?

In my town every tax cheat or fee dodger need not worry about the police of fire department failing to show up and do the job when called. The tax lien or a collection effort/agency is what better governments do for those folks. I suspect this is a pissing war between the local authorities.

167 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:36:32am

Has anyone been following the "Lake Pirate" story?
Coming Up Empty

Still no luck in the search for the missing American allegedly shot by "lake pirates" along the Mexico-Texas border. Possibly complicating the case is that the local sheriff on the U.S. side has a history of disputes with Mexican authorities and is an alarmist when it comes to border security. We'll have more on that later.

TPM has been insinuating the story is bogus, Any thoughts?

168 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:38:26am

re: #167 Killgore Trout

Of course it's bogus...
Violence on the Mexican Border??
...Why I never.........
////

169 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:39:48am

re: #168 reloadingisnotahobby

Of course it's bogus...
Violence on the Mexican Border??
...Why I never...
///

It seems a lot of the stories about border violence have been bogus or overblown. The Beheadings come to mind.

170 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:41:31am

re: #167 Killgore Trout

Has anyone been following the "Lake Pirate" story?
Coming Up Empty

TPM has been insinuating the story is bogus, Any thoughts?

I'd heard there were some questions about what really happened in this instance, but there's a history on Falcon Lake. A friend of mine who's an avid bass fisherman used to love hitting that lake, but not any longer.

Here's a Washington Post story from earlier this year:

Falcon Lake

171 theheat  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:42:03am

I have grown particularly tired of every nuance of a position or partyline needing to be translated or framed in Christian terms, as if plain English is meaningless, offensive, or become incomprehensible to the enlightened. The 24/7 devotion to all that is publicly pious wears thin. You'd think God was giving out bonus points for every biblical reference that can be worked in a conversation, like Scrabble points.

At some point I fully expect them to adopt a coded language, or maybe something on the order of pig Latin, so they aren't bound to using the Language of the Damned. At that point, they talk talk scripture all day without interruption, or the inconvenience of accomplishing anything meaningful that is not religious.

172 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:42:35am

re: #169 Killgore Trout

It seems a lot of the stories about border violence have been bogus or overblown. The Beheadings come to mind.

Have you read somewhere that the bodies found down there
were not beheaded or just DEAD?
Remember who is reporting and where the report comes from geographically!
I haven't been keeping up on it since I vowed to never go
south of Arizona!!

173 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:43:14am

re: #167 Killgore Trout

I'm fairly confident the wife's story is true. Reliable news sources have confirmed the presence of meth/coke dealers and their habit of sending out teenaged thugs in speed boats to traffic drugs and hassle folks on the lake down there. A lot of the TPM speculation seems to center around the fact that the teen guys shot the husband but didn't kill the wife when they had the opportunity.

Who wasn't part of a group of teenagers doing something stupid when the "oh, shit" moment happened when the situation went too far and everbody took off? Also, once the wife bailed, one of the boys would likely decide to take the husband's jet ski. It could be sold or just kept for recreation.

Meth makes people do awful things without remorse, ... lost a couple of friends to it.

174 iossarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:43:46am

re: #161 mr.fusion

I think it's a not a small minority. My take on the "Rise of the Nutjobs" is that, for the past 20 years, people have been told, over and over again, that taxes are evil and that government is always worse at doing anything than a private counterpart. Of course, they have been told other things as well, but this specific item is the central plank of the structure.

This has been the mantra of the Republican party, but also, sadly, has been repeated without any real caveat by a large number of neo-liberals.

I believe that a lot of people out there really don't think very carefully about issues, and indeed substitute the repetition of slogans for actual critical thought. The first time I really started to worry was when I read an interview with a bright kid from a small town in Kansas who was going to an elite university. When asked to characterize his personal outlook on life, he said "fiscal responsibility". What worried me was not so much that he said those words, but that there was clearly nothing of substance beneath them (as in, how do you actually govern in a "fiscally responsible" way). This was about ten years ago.

What's happening now is that we've reached the point where the system is failing, and the only thing that many people can think of doing is to tear apart its remnants (after all, it's failing - it must be defective).

I'm an optimistic person, and in the long term, that remains the case. I think that, if the crazy right does get into power, then there will be further crises, but that they will eventually lead to a strengthening of the social contract (or whatever you want to call it). In the short term, though, there could well be a lot of pain, and it will be concentrated (as always) among the weakest.

175 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:44:21am

re: #173 funky chicken

That sounds reasonable.

176 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:44:36am

re: #167 Killgore Trout

Has anyone been following the "Lake Pirate" story?
Coming Up Empty

TPM has been insinuating the story is bogus, Any thoughts?

I hate discussing real life "who done its" but if this was CSI we would find out that the wife and a BF did away with hubby (maybe at the lake, maybe before) and decided on the "Mexican Pirate" story because the "black guy with dark sunglasses" was played out.

Hint: there is a reason the spouse is always the first and main suspect....

177 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:45:06am

re: #171 theheat

I have grown particularly tired of every nuance of a position or partyline needing to be translated or framed in Christian terms, as if plain English is meaningless, offensive, or become incomprehensible to the enlightened. The 24/7 devotion to all that is publicly pious wears thin. You'd think God was giving out bonus points for every biblical reference that can be worked in a conversation, like Scrabble points.

At some point I fully expect them to adopt a coded language, or maybe something on the order of pig Latin, so they aren't bound to using the Language of the Damned. At that point, they talk talk scripture all day without interruption, or the inconvenience of accomplishing anything meaningful that is not religious.

Shaka, when the walls fell...

;)

178 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:45:10am

O'Donnell complains of 'character assassination'

Newark, Delaware (CNN) - Delaware Republican Senate candidate Christine O'Donnell is asking voters to give her a second look. At a candidate forum sponsored by a group of local Republicans, O'Donnell blamed her campaign's recent troubles on unfair coverage in the "liberal media."

"I've put my name on the line. And I've taken a lot of hits ... a lot of character assassination," O'Donnell said.

A local GOP leader moderated Wednesday night's tightly controlled event, asking the candidate her positions on taxes, spending and the new health care law. O'Donnell did take a few questions from the audience. But she left the forum via a back door and did not stop for interviews with reporters.

Serpentine Christine! SERPENTINE!

I also find allegations of character assassination from her extremely funny give a key part of her primary campaign was baseless smears on her opponent.

179 What, me worry?  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:45:21am

re: #162 funky chicken

I hope it's a fabricated quote, but I fear it's not. And people want to join this guy's organization? Really, it's pretty hard to see much difference between Randall Terry and some Al Q imam.

Randall Terry is one sick fuck.

180 darthstar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:49:11am

re: #178 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

O'Donnell complains of 'character assassination'

Serpentine Christine! SERPENTINE!

I also find allegations of character assassination from her extremely funny give a key part of her primary campaign was baseless smears on her opponent.

If, by "put my name on the line" she means her traditionally mocked as a nutcase name, then all I can say is, "boo-fucking-hoo"...

181 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:50:23am

re: #180 darthstar

I was just wondering what she meant by putting her name on the line.
It would seem to be the first condition for 'taking hits.'

182 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:50:48am

re: #107 lawhawk

Well, I didn't mean to say it's inevitable in all cases -- most fire chiefs won't take it to this extreme. But there will inevitably be some bureaucrats who get too obsessed with the letter of the law and make incredibly bad decisions like this one.

183 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:50:51am

re: #176 webevintage

I hate discussing real life "who done its" but if this was CSI we would find out that the wife and a BF did away with hubby (maybe at the lake, maybe before) and decided on the "Mexican Pirate" story because the "black guy with dark sunglasses" was played out.

Hint: there is a reason the spouse is always the first and main suspect...

True but it always feels a little creepy to suspect/accuse someone of killing their spouse/children who may not be responsible and are grieving. It happens but I'm hesitant to jump on the bandwagon.

184 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:52:19am

A few years ago, there was a minor uproar here in Lubbock when some libertarian cargo cultists showed up at a city council meeting to complain about the fire department using expensive disposable supplies like oxygen masks to revive and otherwise treat injured pets after fires. It was bad enough, one of them said, that the FD had to treat welfare bums and homeless derelicts for free without also using tax-payer funded material and equipment to save their cats and dogs. One of the complainers was a well-known prosperity gospel crank who frequently sent letters to the editor to bitch about the general decline of morals. I am not making this up.

The council actually considered a measure to forbid the practice. The fire chief and several firefighters spoke against it, offering to pay for the supplies out of their own pockets. Many others offered to do the same. One called the complainers inhuman. I ventured the opinion that the complainers were a waste of the city-owned oxygen in the room, which drew a scowl from the complainers but a round of applause from everyone else. It was voted down unanimously.

185 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:52:50am

re: #134 dragonfire1981

Maybe these people worship a different Jesus than the one I know.

Bolded for truth. Amen.

186 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:54:06am

Jeb Bush and Randall Terry:

What a difference term limits make! These days, it's Extreme Makeover/Governor Edition. In the fizzling days of his fiefdom, the guv is flip-flopping away, beating around the bush, backstabbing the ultra-conservatives who were there for him when he needed them.
In an about-face that would have been unthinkable if he still had to face voters, the new, homogenized, pasteurized Jeb Bush has endorsed state Sen. Jim King against Randall Terry, the anti-abortion-extremist-turned-Terri-Schiavo-champion.
Terry vowed to drum King out of office for, in his view, letting Terri Schiavo die. (King supported the first "Terri's Law," to keep the young woman on a feeding tube. But, after it was declared unconstitutional, he not only refused to back the governor's second version, but called his initial vote "one of the worst" of his career.)

Jeb has chosen to overlook King's disloyalty to him at the end of the Schiavo struggle, emphasizing his early support. But he's blasted Terry, saying he "made no positive contribution ... to the issues related to Terri Schiavo," and calling him "a hindrance in our efforts to save this woman's life."
But on his Society for Truth and Justice Web site, Terry quotes Bob Schindler, Terri's father, saying that "Randall helped us meet with Governor Bush, which gave us the momentum to pass [the first Terri's] law."

If Jeb Bush could really look at himself in the mirror, he'd see that he is Randall Terry and Randall Terry is he...

Terry's renewed celebrity is a byproduct of the governor's having opened a Pandora's lunchbox, pandering to the radical right for his personal political gain. The rabid activist and his Operation Rescue had been discredited and had fallen off the radar screen -- until the governor put him in the limelight when he turned the fate of Terri Schiavo into a three-ring circus. During all that time, he never uttered a peep against the extremists, never publicly called upon Terry and others to tone down their rhetoric. Nor did he modulate his own, until now.

[Link: www.talk2action.org...]

A lot of folks think I'm being unfair when I blame Bush/Rove for bringing these nuts into GOP leadership positions. Shrug. I think the facts speak for themselves.

187 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:54:09am

re: #167 Killgore Trout

Has anyone been following the "Lake Pirate" story?
Coming Up Empty

TPM has been insinuating the story is bogus, Any thoughts?

I've been reading the stories - the wife's story does seem a bit suspect, but so far there's no solid evidence against her.

188 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:56:02am

re: #167 Killgore Trout

Has anyone been following the "Lake Pirate" story?
Coming Up Empty

TPM has been insinuating the story is bogus, Any thoughts?

The first article I read about it said the couple had lived in another area near tha border, and recently moved to the area by the lake, so they had to know the danger before they went over there, which made me think it was fake. But they could just be foolhardy or stupid.

The other important, and obviously true, part of this story is that the Mexican authorities are not in control of their side. It was hard to get them to go search, and then they had to clear out before dark. That means the only legal authority on the border there is on our side.

189 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:56:04am

I love this time of year. Fiscal year is over, SLA are being renegotiated and we've got nothing to do but kick back and watch movies for the next 2 weeks.

190 brownbagj  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:57:06am

What about "Love thy neighbor as thyself?"

Nah. Plus, Jesus was a weightlifter. Very buff indeed.

191 Locker  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:57:25am

re: #167 Killgore Trout

Has anyone been following the "Lake Pirate" story?
Coming Up Empty

TPM has been insinuating the story is bogus, Any thoughts?

Yea the story that lake pirates road up, shot her husband and rode away leaving her to flee seems pretty suspect.

192 webevintage  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:57:48am

re: #183 Killgore Trout

True but it always feels a little creepy to suspect/accuse someone of killing their spouse/children who may not be responsible and are grieving. It happens but I'm hesitant to jump on the bandwagon.

That's the problem with being a fan of detective/mystery novels/tv/movies.
I always feel like the father in Shadow of a Doubt (1943 movie...pretty good) who's hobby it to sit around with his best friend discuss the best ways to kill someone without getting caught.
(Note they are not professional hit men, it's just their hobby. I would think mystery writers do that too.)

193 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:58:20am

re: #190 brownbagj

What about "Love thy neighbor as thyself?"

Nah. Plus, Jesus was a weightlifter. Very buff indeed.

I think I'd get arrested if I tried to do that to my neighbor... or end up with a letter in the Penthouse forums.

194 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:59:00am

From what I understand, the police are pretting good at profiling the behavior of the grieving spouse.

Terri Horman's behavior was suspect immediately, although they didn't tell us this until later.

195 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:59:24am

re: #19 mr.fusion

But it's so far from the America I remember even 5 years ago...not to be melodramatic or anything...but this is just heartbreaking.

I would like to say that I think the average right-wing Christian in this country, along with the average left-wing Christian, would still scream "Damnit, the Fisher's place is on fire!" and join the bucket brigade. These people are just assholes.

196 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 11:59:24am

re: #192 webevintage

That's the problem with being a fan of detective/mystery novels/tv/movies.
I always feel like the father in Shadow of a Doubt (1943 movie...pretty good) who's hobby it to sit around with his best friend discuss the best ways to kill someone without getting caught.
(Note they are not professional hit men, it's just their hobby. I would think mystery writers do that too.)

IIRC, there are online and print resources to help detective writers get the murder "right".

197 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:01:41pm

re: #196 Decatur Deb

IIRC, there are online and print resources to help detective writers get the murder "right".

Agatha Christie did her research. One of her first murder mystery how-they-dunnit came from her time in a WWI pharmacy.

198 SpaceJesus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:05:23pm

what a dick

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:07:32pm

re: #50 marjoriemoon


OTOH, I can guarantee you the owner was standing outside screaming for his animals. It's also not unheard of for a firefighter to risk his/her life to save them.

A couple of my friends had an apartment fire years ago. My friend was standing outside simply losing her shit, when a firefighter grabbed her, and yelled "Ma'am, is there anyone else in the apartment?"

She yelled "My cat! My cat!" and he said "Oh SHIT," marched into the flaming apartment, and came out carrying a small, elderly pissed-off cat that had been peacefully hiding from the hubbub in the closet.

200 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:08:01pm

re: #198 SpaceJesus

So...SJ...if someone's space station were on fire, his neighbors should help him out?

And, how, exactly, do fire hoses work in space with the physics all wonky like that?

201 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:08:04pm

re: #197 Emmmieg

Agatha Christie did her research. One of her first murder mystery how-they-dunnit came from her time in a WWI pharmacy.

She was something of an archaeologist in Mesopotamia. In one of her stories the victim is killed by a stone artifact dropped from on high.

202 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:08:49pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

She was something of an archaeologist in Mesopotamia. In one of her stories the victim is killed by a stone artifact dropped from on high.

Second husband was an archeologist.

First was a jerk.

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:08:58pm

re: #55 wrenchwench

Mr. Fischer feels HE is the one who deserves compassion:

I'm not a Christian, Mr. Fischer, but I do feel compassion toward you. It's simply tragic that you have no moral compass.

204 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:09:33pm

re: #191 Locker

Well, the wife's story will be put to the test when the ME examine's the husband's body when it is eventually found.

For now, the Mexican authorities seem to discount her version of events all while US officials have come to her side and some witnesses seem to corroborate her version of events. Others point out that it is unusual for jetskiers to use the lake, which is usually plied by fishermen looking for game fish.

205 Sol Berdinowitz  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:10:25pm

These guys serve to remind us why we must maintain a separation of church and state...

206 brownbagj  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:10:35pm

re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, he has a compass. It just points towards himself at all times.

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:11:11pm

re: #88 elizajane

Would this be kind of like the people who say that emergency rooms shouldn't treat illegal immigrants because they haven't paid taxes (even though many of them have)?

I thought so.

Taxes are bad. People who don't pay them are bad. People who don't want to pay taxes for services but then don't pay private subscriptions are also bad. Where's the end of bad? Only at personal responsibility, like Christ said. Because He certainly never showed responsibility for anybody but himself.

Why should Christ die for anyone? Shouldn't they take responsibility for their own sins, and die for themselves?

/

208 jaunte  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:11:38pm

re: #206 brownbagj

Oh, he has a compass. It just points towards himself at all times.

He's a load star.

209 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:11:39pm
Conspiracy theories linger in Falcon Lake Mexican 'pirates' shooting
An eyewitness corroborated part of Tiffany Hartley's story about a Mexican 'pirate' attack that killed her husband, David Hartley, on Falcon Lake last week. But not all doubts have been erased.

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

210 brownbagj  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:12:23pm

re: #205 ralphieboy

Sometimes, when I am ticked at the religionists (I am a Christian but believe in the separation of C&S), I want the wall to be broken down so that the government can start regulating what they say, forcing them to marry who they don't want to marry etc, so they would then start screaming for separation of C&S.

211 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:12:45pm

re: #204 lawhawk
Her acting may suck....
The body may not even be in the lake!!
It's not uncommon for bodies to NEVER be
recovered when lost in a large body of water.

212 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:13:31pm

re: #111 shades

"feminized" version of Christianity. So being a woman is a bad thing? In this fool's mind is Jesus decked out like Rambo? Oh silly me, these are "Christian" men. I'm supposed to be barefoot, pregnant and mute.

It's a recurrent RWR thing. Women are great--but 'feminized' anything is a sign of moral decay.

213 Kragar  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:14:16pm

re: #208 jaunte

He's a load star.

fixed

214 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:15:14pm

Oh God--it's Wendy Murphy, the Fox News version of Nancy Grace:

"It certainly feels better to imagine that a young good-looking married couple was blissfully in love, and that they were simply having fun in the sun when dark forces struck," writes law professor Wendy Murphy, author of "And Justice for Some," in a Fox News commentary. "But let's remember the Scott Peterson and Charles Stuart cases. Two men seemingly head over heels in love with their beautiful pregnant wives when they claimed an unknown killer ruined their picture-perfect lives."

In Zapata, some locals pointed out that jet skiers are unusual on a lake frequented mostly by fishermen, and that it's very rare to see jet skiers cross onto the Mexican side of the lake, which is marked by concrete posts. The Hartleys have lived in Mexico and had few reservations about crossing into Mexico to visit at a half-submerged church near Old Guerrero, despite warnings about pirates, Ms. Hartley has explained

[Link: www.csmonitor.com...]

I'm gonna believe the wife unless proven otherwise.

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:15:29pm

re: #139 nines09

What a dolt. If that's Christianity, let me off.

Don't worry. That's NOT Christianity.

216 avanti  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:16:31pm

Another black text on black background on AFA by Bryan Fischer about the gay students suicide. You see, it was his fault for correctly feeling shame for his sinful conduct and should have learned to like girls./

Gay.

217 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:18:08pm

re: #172 reloadingisnotahobby

Have you read somewhere that the bodies found down there
were not beheaded or just DEAD?
Remember who is reporting and where the report comes from geographically!
I haven't been keeping up on it since I vowed to never go
south of Arizona!!

There have been no decapitated bodies found anywhere on the border, last I checked. People who have said there have been are engaging in wishful thinking.

218 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:19:04pm

re: #216 avanti
Avanti...
Your Photo..
Is that a Fletcher Class Destroyer?

219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:19:56pm

re: #149 darthstar

I love football.

220 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:20:27pm

re: #25 avanti

This is a interesting Ghandi quotes on Christians:

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Ghandi also believed the jews should have just laid down and died so I'd take his beliefs with a grain of salt.

221 brownbagj  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:20:47pm

re: #213 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)


He's a pant load star.

fixed again.

222 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:20:47pm

re: #217 SanFranciscoZionist

OK
The last I read about beheaded bodies was in mex..in a cave....
Lots of bodies.
I have not been keeping up!!

223 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:21:31pm

re: #199 SanFranciscoZionist

A couple of my friends had an apartment fire years ago. My friend was standing outside simply losing her shit, when a firefighter grabbed her, and yelled "Ma'am, is there anyone else in the apartment?"

She yelled "My cat! My cat!" and he said "Oh SHIT," marched into the flaming apartment, and came out carrying a small, elderly pissed-off cat that had been peacefully hiding from the hubbub in the closet.

Third story is on pet rescue breathing equipment.

[Link: blogs.trb.com...]

224 theheat  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:21:52pm

re: #220 RogueOne

And if I recall, he also drank urine.

225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:22:15pm

re: #220 RogueOne

It's still a great quote.

226 calochortus  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:25:19pm

re: #217 SanFranciscoZionist

There have been incidents in Mexico. Jan Brewer was wrong about it happening in Arizona, or on the border.

227 subsailor68  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:26:00pm

re: #217 SanFranciscoZionist

There have been no decapitated bodies found anywhere on the border, last I checked. People who have said there have been are engaging in wishful thinking.

I think that's correct. There have been numerous beheadings in different parts of the Mexican interior, but as far as I know, most have been inter-cartel related. Here's a story Time magazine did on the subject:

Beheadings

228 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:27:26pm

re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It's still a great quote.

You know who else thought jesus was a wuss and had some good quotes?/

229 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:40:46pm

re: #207 SanFranciscoZionist

Why should Christ die for anyone? Shouldn't they take responsibility for their own sins, and die for themselves?

/

"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine.
Melting in a pot of thieves wild card up my sleeve
Thick heart of stone my sins my own
They belong to me. Me."
Patti Smith

230 Vambo  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:41:34pm
weakened, feminized version of Christianity that is only about softer virtues such as compassion and not in any part about the muscular Christian virtues of individual responsibility and accountability.

Dude, that Jesus guy was a fucking faggot!!!
/

231 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:43:10pm

re: #218 reloadingisnotahobby

Avanti...
Your Photo..
Is that a Fletcher Class Destroyer?

CA148, USS Newport News.

232 Slap  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 12:59:35pm

re: #229 wlewisiii

Quote Patti, and I'll always upding....!

233 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 1:00:53pm

re: #2 BlackFedora

Being an ideologue will quickly make you an asshole.

Yep. Because an ideologue is not about being good, but about being correct.

234 Slap  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 1:12:39pm

re: #92 JeffM70


"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. "

Is it just me, or does it seem that an awful lot of evangelical-types either ignore, or are unaware that this concept exists? I know that the concept of faith combined with good works is kind of a cornerstone Catholic belief (from what I remember of my long-ago catechism). Does anybody know what editorial contortion is used to justify de-emphasizing the importance of works in one's Christian faith?

And I'll fully admit to being ignorant about such details, mostly by choice. It just seems to me that there's a particularly virulent, specifically noticeable subset who believe that testifying is enough, and that emphasizing works equally is somehow not "really" Christian. I know we have many believers amongst our posters (I'm agnostic, in case that's important), and I'm genuinely curious about how such folks get there, and if it's systemic amongst denominations, or if such folks are isolated and just mouthy?

235 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 1:57:21pm

One word response as follows;

"Blarrrgh."

/so much for my lunch...sigh. :(

236 HappyWarrior  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 2:03:18pm

How earth does an asshole like this get invited to be speak at a value voters summit? The only values Bryan Fischer has are being a jerk and asshole. The right and moral thing to do would have been to put the fire out. Of course because Fischer's a jerk he thinks otherwise. I'm sick of this asshole claiming to be some exampifer of values and Christianity and I don't even consider myself a Christian and it offends me.

237 TedStriker  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 2:22:48pm

re: #178 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

O'Donnell complains of 'character assassination'

Serpentine Christine! SERPENTINE!

I also find allegations of character assassination from her extremely funny give a key part of her primary campaign was baseless smears on her opponent.

One has to have character before it can be assassinated...

238 pch  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 2:25:33pm

re: #236 HappyWarrior

How earth does an asshole like this get invited to be speak at a value voters summit? The only values Bryan Fischer has are being a jerk and asshole.

You just answered your own question.

239 sagehen  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 2:26:57pm

re: #186 funky chicken

Jeb Bush and Randall Terry:

[Link: www.talk2action.org...]

A lot of folks think I'm being unfair when I blame Bush/Rove for bringing these nuts into GOP leadership positions. Shrug. I think the facts speak for themselves.

It is unfair -- blame Ronald Reagan.

In 1976, Reagan's primary challenge against Ford was a miserable failure. After Ford's loss in the general, the names being batted around for next time were Howard Baker, John Anderson, and a couple of other.

The Reaganauts (aka The Purples, nobody remembers why) then cut a deal with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson -- if all the devout evangelicals were to register Republican and vote as a bloc for whoever JF/PR told their pastors to tell them to vote for, their chosen would win most of the southern primaries. Two entire Christian denominations would become hard right supply-siders, in return for which the anti-tax, anti-regulation people would adopt Baptist/Pentecostal views on the social issues.

(at the same time, under Purple direction and with Scaife funding: Rove, Norquist, Abramoff, Ralph Reed and Lee Atwater were engineering a conservative takeover of the College Republicans and Young Republicans -- by purging as many liberals and moderates as possible, and blacklisting them from entry-level campaign and legislative staff positions, they intended to take over the party).

George W. Bush had nothing to do with devising this strategy, but his election was the fulfillment of decades' worth of work towards this conspiracy.

240 sagehen  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 2:32:55pm

re: #230 Vambo

Dude, that Jesus guy was a fucking faggot!!!
/

Every picture I've seen, he wore a dress...

241 pch  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 2:34:23pm

This, of course, is the same Bryan Fischer who recently opined that Hitler was a homo who selected big, butch gay men to carry out his plans.

So, if those gay Nazis were all ultra-manly and stuff, I guess that means they were also Christians.

242 pch  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 2:35:12pm

re: #240 sagehen

Every picture I've seen, he wore a dress...

And on his last evening on Earth, he attended a dinner party with 12 other dudes.

243 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 2:37:50pm

ahaha I love this country, it's full of maniacs

244 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 2:47:48pm

re: #98 marjoriemoon

It doesn't really matter if he knows, doesn't know or doesn't care about the fee. Maybe he's too stupid (and I really mean that, like a low IQ) to know the consequences of such an action. That's why when you own a home, it's not something you should have to think about.

"Love they neighbor"... except when they don't pay the $75 fee, then they should all burn to death in a fire.

What about that? What if it happened in the middle of the night and no one could get out of the house? They're passed out on the floor and the fire dept can't go in and look?

If I was stupid enough to live in this assbackwards city, I would walk my payment down to the city office and watch them put it in the system. I'd take no chances of even mailing it.


It was precisely because the city fire team realizes that money is one thing but human life another, that they went to the fire even though it was none of their responsibility to protect that property.

ONLY when they had made sure that nothing but property was at risk did they stand aside and let it burn.

Do long term consequences and the way systems will work count with you? Do you understand the implications of your statement that if you lived in that district, you'd make sure sure sure you'd paid your subscription fee?

What you meant by that is that because the fire team protects the property of those who contribute, and not those who shirk, you want the protection and will pay for it. If the fire team promised to come whether you paid or not, only if you hadn't paid, you'd have to pay double or something, you'd think differently. So would everybody else. Nobody would contribute up front. Without all those $75 checks, there wouldn't be money for the fire truck. No fire truck, no response. Even if lives are at stake.

In the end, ultimately, people die if the financing of the fire response system falls through. And THAT is why the team let the place burn.

245 kahn_mann  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 2:54:24pm
softer virtues such as compassion


Hmmm, last I checked, mercy was among one of the Christian virtues... The Christian thing to do would be to forgive the folks for not paying their fees and save their house.

246 aagcobb  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 3:06:37pm

Jesus told a story about a poor man who lived on the street outside the house of a rich man. They both died, and the rich man found he was begging for a drink looking up from Hell at the poor man, who was sitting next to Abraham in Heaven. Guess which one Fischer is going to be.

247 celticdragon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 3:27:47pm

re: #167 Killgore Trout

Has anyone been following the "Lake Pirate" story?
Coming Up Empty

TPM has been insinuating the story is bogus, Any thoughts?

I think she is legit.

There have been other incidents similar to what she described.

248 celticdragon  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 3:31:58pm

re: #237 talon_262

One has to have character before it can be assassinated...

Serpentine is a phylo-silicate mineral group often associated with metamorphism.

Christine O'Donnell is a snake.

A cold hearted venomous reptile.

249 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 3:33:03pm

re: #247 celticdragon

I think she is legit.

There have been other incidents similar to what she described.

When you say "similar", do you mean harassment type incidents at that lake, or other actual deaths and missing bodies?

250 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 3:40:25pm

Nice relative morality there Mr. Fischer.

251 Yashmak  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 4:28:31pm

If I recall my biblical teaching as well as I think I do, the covenant marks a subtle change between a vengeful God, and a forgiving/compassionate God.

Perhaps this Fischer jack-hole would prefer we return to kickin' it Old-Testament style, and see sinners getting turned into pillars of salt, hit by columns of fire from the sky, etc. etc. But that very line of thinking in a way defies the crucial New Testament ideal:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them."

I have to agree with aagcobb's #246

252 jamesfirecat  Thu, Oct 7, 2010 5:58:28pm

re: #244 lostlakehiker

It was precisely because the city fire team realizes that money is one thing but human life another, that they went to the fire even though it was none of their responsibility to protect that property.

ONLY when they had made sure that nothing but property was at risk did they stand aside and let it burn.

Do long term consequences and the way systems will work count with you? Do you understand the implications of your statement that if you lived in that district, you'd make sure sure sure you'd paid your subscription fee?

What you meant by that is that because the fire team protects the property of those who contribute, and not those who shirk, you want the protection and will pay for it. If the fire team promised to come whether you paid or not, only if you hadn't paid, you'd have to pay double or something, you'd think differently. So would everybody else. Nobody would contribute up front. Without all those $75 checks, there wouldn't be money for the fire truck. No fire truck, no response. Even if lives are at stake.

In the end, ultimately, people die if the financing of the fire response system falls through. And THAT is why the team let the place burn.

Here's the thing.

You're wrong to suggest that people should even be allowed to make the choice to contribute the $75 or not. People clearly aren't smart enough.

People should be taxed $75 and always be able to count on the fire department.

It would solve everybody's problem (firefighting company getting money and houses not being left to burn down) wouldn't it?

253 morrisab  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:15:02am

Aaaand a mandate to purchase health insurance, so your Christian neighbour isn't on the hook for your irresponsibility?

Well, that's just socialism.

254 friarstale  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 10:00:03am

religion aside, and forgive me (no pun intended) if this was already brought up, but I wonder if that fire department got any state or federal funding whatsoever, and if so they should have responded with at least that fractional measure of support, since I'm sure the folks who lost their home pay some sort of state and federal taxes (even if only to social security, or even state and/or county sales tax)

255 martinsmithy  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:22:01pm

No, it's definitely not the "christian" thing to do. But we are not a christian nation. And, given the circumstances (which I will talk about further in the next paragraph), the fire department was right not to put out the fire. In the situation they were given, if they had put out this fire no one would be paying the $75 subscription fee, knowing that they would get the service anyway.

No, the problem lies not with the firefighters, it lies with the citizens of Obion County and its elected officials, who refused to provide a basic service like fire protection on a universal, mandatory basis. It shows the true nature of the libertarian philosophy as regards government services - a nature which would destroy our community and reduce us to a bunch of isolated, selfish individuals.


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