Ohio GOP Congressional Candidate Played Nazi Games

For years Rich Iott, Republican Tea Party nominee for Congress from Ohio’s 9th District, liked to play dress-up as a member of the Third Reich’s Waffen SS in Nazi reenactments.

Iott says it was perfectly harmless fun, and he is not a Nazi.

When contacted by The Atlantic, Iott confirmed his involvement with the group over a number of years, but said his interest in Nazi Germany was historical and he does not subscribe to the tenets of Nazism. “No, absolutely not,” he said. “In fact, there’s a disclaimer on the [Wiking] website. And you’ll find that on almost any reenactment website. It’s purely historical interest in World War II.”

Iott, a member of the Ohio Military Reserve, added, “I’ve always been fascinated by the fact that here was a relatively small country that from a strictly military point of view accomplished incredible things. I mean, they took over most of Europe and Russia, and it really took the combined effort of the free world to defeat them. From a purely historical military point of view, that’s incredible.”

Several right wing bloggers are currently engaged in a full-throated defense of Iott, of course, because this kind of thing really isn’t a problem for them.

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131 comments
1 Vambo  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:28:05am

this is like drag for conservatives

2 lawhawk  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:29:28am

So, it’s a military reenactment and they don’t condone the actions taken by the Nazis. It’s all to realistically engage in game playing. I’m not buying it…

Or, are they trying to engage in the Werner von Braun defense? Once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down. That’s not my department, says Werner von Braun.

About the only one who can dress up as a Nazi and get away with it is Mel Brooks - when he incessantly lampoons ‘em.

3 PT Barnum  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:31:09am

re: #2 lawhawk

So, it’s a military reenactment and they don’t condone the actions taken by the Nazis. It’s all to realistically engage in game playing. I’m not buying it…

Or, are they trying to engage in the Werner von Braun defense? Once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down. That’s not my department, says Werner von Braun.

About the only one who can dress up as a Nazi and get away with it is Mel Brooks - when he incessantly lampoons ‘em.

Upding for the Tom Lehrer reference!

4 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:31:24am

If they did this in Germany, of course, they’d be arrested.

5 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:33:19am

Geez, dressing up as Confederates and Nazis.
How…
Odd.

6 lawhawk  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:33:23am

re: #4 Charles

Well, Germany’s speech law/conduct law prohibits any displays of Nazi imagery, so yes - they would be arrested.

The US has a much more protective free speech law, so they can dress up like Goose Stepping morons (who’d rather burn books than read ‘em). /okay, I’m in full on movie reference mode today.

7 wrenchwench  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:35:37am

re: #5 Varek Raith

Geez, dressing up as Confederates and Nazis.
How…
Odd.

I was just thinking that the guys from Ohio can’t do the Confederate thing so much.

What is it about dressing up as a racist from the losing side that appeals to a winger?

8 Political Atheist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:36:33am

Funny how nobody wants to be the re-enactor of the victims in the camps. Nope rather play the bastards that put people in Auschwitz.

9 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:38:31am

“You couldn’t do Civil War re-enacting if somebody didn’t play the role of the Confederates”

Exactly, and those people creep me out as well.

10 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:39:17am

You’d think they’d at least bother to get the uniforms right.

11 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:41:31am

re: #10 negativ

You’d think they’d at least bother to get the uniforms right.

Kinda shoots down their whole “re-enactment” and “historical accuracy” angle, no?

12 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:43:08am

From the Atlantic article:

Iott says the group chose the Wiking division in part because it fought on the Eastern Front, mainly against the Russian Army, and not U.S. or British soldiers.

From the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy Wikipedia article:

Members of the division’s bakery column, led by Obersturmführer Braunnagel and Untersturmführer Kochalty, assisted Einsatzgruppe A in rounding up Ukrainian Jews. Witnesses report that the Jewish victims were forced to run a gauntlet formed by soldiers who would beat them as they passed, and when they reached the end of the gauntlet, Einsatzgruppen officers murdered them and their bodies were pushed into a bomb crater. The German 1st Mountain Division is also suspected of being implicated. Between 50 and 60 Jews were killed in this manner, as a part of the larger Einsatzgruppe operation which resulted in over 700 murders[8]

13 PT Barnum  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:44:36am

Maybe they’re running around singing one of these songs:

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

14 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:46:28am

I hate Illinois Ohio Nazis.

15 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:47:10am

If they think so highly of German military achievement I would think they’d dress up in Wehrmacht uniforms instead. It was people like Heinz Guderian and Erich von Manstein who were responsible for Nazi Germany’s success in WWII. The Waffen SS were for the most part just murdering bastards.

And I thank God every day that the Nazis did so much to smother those people’s genius.

16 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:51:20am
“I’ve always been fascinated by the fact that here was a relatively small country that from a strictly military point of view accomplished incredible things. I mean, they took over most of Europe and Russia, and it really took the combined effort of the free world to defeat them. From a purely historical military point of view, that’s incredible.”

This is pretty much bullshit in terms of serious military history. Germany was in fact larger and more populous than every country it invaded during World War 2 except the Soviet Union. Additionally, they had a number of allies themselves. Japan diverted a huge part of the US and British effort, while Italy contributed far more to the war than is commonly acknowledged. In my experience, these re-enactors and Third Reich fans tend to unfairly denigrate the Italians, a position derived ironically enough from British war-time propaganda. Compared to such countries as France and Poland, Germany was far better prepared for war, since the country had been on a war footing essentially since Hitler’s rise to power in 1933. The allies’ failure to prepare or recognize the danger is a whole field of history in itself but it does not particularly endorse the idea of Aryan military superiority.
This fawning admiration of Nazi military prowess and martial virtue is a companion ideology to the “Aryan technology cult” that I posted about a few weeks ago.

17 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:52:21am

re: #9 goddamnedfrank

“You couldn’t do Civil War re-enacting if somebody didn’t play the role of the Confederates”

Exactly, and those people creep me out as well.

The problem with ‘re-enactments’ is they never get the smell right.

I suspect if you added the odors of blood, brains, guts, feces and urine to the re-enactments they’d be much less popular. Adding the sounds of people screaming in agony, pleading for someone to end their misery and praying to God to take them away from this hell wouldn’t make for a pleasant experience either.

18 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:56:09am

re: #17 Romantic Heretic

The problem with ‘re-enactments’ is they never get the smell right.

Someone notable (can’t recall who) said something along the lines that re-enactments need to scatter some week-old cattle carcasses every few hundred feet to get the smell right.

19 Charleston Chew  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:56:22am

How times have changed. There was a time when a few melted snow flakes on Edmund Muskie’s face meant he was unfit to be President.

Tea Party candidates seem to be at the forefront of gaffe innovation. They’re like the Large Hadron Collider of political embarrassment.

20 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 10:56:56am

re: #15 Romantic Heretic

If they think so highly of German military achievement I would think they’d dress up in Wehrmacht uniforms instead. It was people like Heinz Guderian and Erich von Manstein who were responsible for Nazi Germany’s success in WWII. The Waffen SS were for the most part just murdering bastards.

And I thank God every day that the Nazis did so much to smother those people’s genius.

Well, actually the 5th SS Panzer was a first-rate armored division. It mostly functioned as a ‘fire brigade’ unit, rushed to sections of the front in danger of collapse. On more than one occasion it was able to retrieve situations for the Germans with well-placed counter-attacks.

Moreover, the Wehrmacht Panzer formations took part in the killing of Soviet POWs and the rounding up of Jews (though not in the mass murders of Jews). All of the German mobile units on the Eastern Front were guilty of something nasty. It was a very ugly war.

21 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:04:45am

re: #16 Shiplord Kirel

This is pretty much bullshit in terms of serious military history. Germany was in fact larger and more populous than every country it invaded during World War 2 except the Soviet Union. Additionally, they had a number of allies themselves. Japan diverted a huge part of the US and British effort, while Italy contributed far more to the war than is commonly acknowledged. In my experience, these re-enactors and Third Reich fans tend to unfairly denigrate the Italians, a position derived ironically enough from British war-time propaganda. Compared to such countries as France and Poland, Germany was far better prepared for war, since the country had been on a war footing essentially since Hitler’s rise to power in 1933. The allies’ failure to prepare or recognize the danger is a whole field of history in itself but it does not particularly endorse the idea of Aryan military superiority.
This fawning admiration of Nazi military prowess and martial virtue is a companion ideology to the “Aryan technology cult” that I posted about a few weeks ago.

Well, the Germans did have better officers and enlisted men than the Red Army (as a whole). But much of that was due to the much stronger German economy. Germany was (and still is) far more economically advanced than Russia and that allowed for much better educated men.

That having been said, German tactical doctrine was good in both attack and defense. Operationally, the Germans did well but had their share of miscues. The Strategic level bring us to the question of Adolf Hitler and the fact that attacking the Soviet Union was one of the greatest strategic blunders of all time.

22 jaunte  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:06:36am

re: #1 Vambo

this is like drag for conservatives

I don’t think some people would be paying the prices they do for Nazi memorabilia if there wasn’t some fetish component. Someone may have paid these people $16,000 for a Waffen SS helmet. That’s just nuts.
oakleafmilitaria.com

23 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:07:03am

re: #20 Dark_Falcon

Well, actually the 5th SS Panzer was a first-rate armored division. It mostly functioned as a ‘fire brigade’ unit, rushed to sections of the front in danger of collapse. On more than one occasion it was able to retrieve situations for the Germans with well-placed counter-attacks.

Moreover, the Wehrmacht Panzer formations took part in the killing of Soviet POWs and the rounding up of Jews (though not in the mass murders of Jews). All of the German mobile units on the Eastern Front were guilty of something nasty. It was a very ugly war.

Too true. Worse than most.

Very few innocents. I’ve several biographies by people who fought in Allied units (Brit and American). Each of them has at least one incident where prisoners were murdered.

And don’t get me started on the ‘strategic’ bombing campaign.

24 lawhawk  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:07:10am

re: #16 Shiplord Kirel

On a materials standpoint, even France was better equipped than the Germans at the outset of hostilities (as in the German invasion of France). France had more tanks and more mechanized divisions and equipment than the Nazis, but the French tactics and strategy dispersed and limited their utility and effectiveness.

The French Navy was as larger or larger than the Germans on most counts; so were the Brits.

25 Taqyia2Me  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:08:49am

I’d be damned before I’d vote for a Nazi reenactment player.

26 nines09  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:12:13am

Dressed up as a Nazi. Some play time. Republican Tea Party candidate. Some party.

27 brucee  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:12:30am
Iott’s participation in the Wiking group is not mentioned on his campaign’s website, and his name and photographs were removed from the Wiking website.

Why try to hide it, if it’s just an interest in military history?

28 palomino  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:13:43am

At least we can be pretty sure he’s gonna lose. And not just for this stunt. His district has been Dem for 53 of the past 55 years. It’s rated D+10, giving this freak almost no shot.

29 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:15:20am

re: #24 lawhawk

On a materials standpoint, even France was better equipped than the Germans at the outset of hostilities (as in the German invasion of France). France had more tanks and more mechanized divisions and equipment than the Nazis, but the French tactics and strategy dispersed and limited their utility and effectiveness.

The French Navy was as larger or larger than the Germans on most counts; so were the Brits.

Many of the Brit and French tanks were better than the German ones as well. Thicker armor and better guns.

Their ergonomics sucked though. Many French tanks had a single crewman in the turret. So he had to command the tank as well as lay and fire the gun. If he was a unit commander he had to command his unit as well. Also, no radios. Communication between tanks was performed by going outside and waving flags. Not recommended in a battle.

The heaviest British tank could only move at a brisk walking speed and had no explosive ammo for its main gun. No machine guns either as I recall.

Most importantly, the people in command of the French and British forces still thought in terms of WWI speed. They just couldn’t think or react fast enough to respond.

The German Panzer doctrine worked well in France. But in Russia there was too much space for it to be successful.

My opinion anyway.

30 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:15:31am

re: #24 lawhawk

On a materials standpoint, even France was better equipped than the Germans at the outset of hostilities (as in the German invasion of France). France had more tanks and more mechanized divisions and equipment than the Nazis, but the French tactics and strategy dispersed and limited their utility and effectiveness.

The French Navy was as larger or larger than the Germans on most counts; so were the Brits.

True. The only point to note is the matters of radios. All German tanks in 1940 had radios, while only commander’s tank did in the French Army. Also of note is that Germans had two or three man turrets, which freed the tank commander from gunnery duties. This allowed German tank commanders to perform better than their French counterparts.

31 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:17:48am

Nice. I wonder what people would think if I said I had a “purely historical interest” in terrorism and spent time running around wearing a suicide vest filled with fake explosives while reenacting terrorist attacks…

32 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:18:03am

re: #9 goddamnedfrank

“You couldn’t do Civil War re-enacting if somebody didn’t play the role of the Confederates”

Exactly, and those people creep me out as well.

Actually, some Confederate re-enactor units have Union uniforms and take turns being the Opposition Force. Seems there isn’t that much passionate interest on the other side.

33 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:18:10am

re: #29 Romantic Heretic

Many of the Brit and French tanks were better than the German ones as well. Thicker armor and better guns.

Their ergonomics sucked though. Many French tanks had a single crewman in the turret. So he had to command the tank as well as lay and fire the gun. If he was a unit commander he had to command his unit as well. Also, no radios. Communication between tanks was performed by going outside and waving flags. Not recommended in a battle.

The heaviest British tank could only move at a brisk walking speed and had no explosive ammo for its main gun. No machine guns either as I recall.

Most importantly, the people in command of the French and British forces still thought in terms of WWI speed. They just couldn’t think or react fast enough to respond.

The German Panzer doctrine worked well in France. But in Russia there was too much space for it to be successful.

My opinion anyway.

Actually, the Matilda Mk. II had a co-axial MG. Of note is that it was a BESA, which fired the standard German 7.92mm cartridge. The British did that to avoid redesigning the gun (it was a Czech design).

34 Mark Pennington  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:18:36am

I’m not buying the father/son bonding ritual explanation.

35 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:19:54am

re: #32 Decatur Deb

Actually, some Confederate re-enactor units have Union uniforms and take turns being the Opposition Force. Seems there isn’t that much passionate interest on the other side.

And that is acceptable. American Civil War reenactments have a honorable history in our nation (and in the UK, too) and they are not a problem as long as people remember the wrongs of the Southern cause.

36 Fozzie Bear  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:20:24am

Justice Thomas’ wife is now the direct beneficiary of the ruling her husband made in the Citizen’s United case. She’s started her own 501(C)(4) called “Liberty Central”, which is currently advertising on Rush Limbaugh and Mark Levin’s websites. The group has already garnered a $500,000 and a $50,000 donation, both donated anonymously, thanks to the recent SCOTUS ruling. Under the recent ruling, the tax-exempt 501(C)(4) groups are required to spend less than half of their funding on political advocacy, though there is no mechanism in place to verify or enforce this requirement.
Liberty Central states that it’s primary goal is opposing the “leftist tyranny” of the Obama administration.

Link: nytimes.com

37 Killgore Trout  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:20:28am

re: #31 CuriousLurker

Nice. I wonder what people would think if I said I had a “purely historical interest” in terrorism and spent time running around wearing a suicide vest filled with fake explosives while reenacting terrorist attacks…

Heh. Good point.

38 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:22:33am

re: #36 Fozzie Bear

Justice Thomas’ wife is now the direct beneficiary of the ruling her husband made in the Citizen’s United case. She’s started her own 501(C)(4) called “Liberty Central”, which is currently advertising on Rush Limbaugh and Mark Levin’s websites. The group has already garnered a $500,000 and a $50,000 donation, both donated anonymously, thanks to the recent SCOTUS ruling. Under the recent ruling, the tax-exempt 501(C)(4) groups are required to spend less than half of their funding on political advocacy, though there is no mechanism in place to verify or enforce this requirement.
Liberty Central states that it’s primary goal is opposing the “leftist tyranny” of the Obama administration.

Link: [Link: www.nytimes.com…]

But she was not a beneficiary when the law was struck down, correct? What does not mean legally?

39 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:22:55am

re: #24 lawhawk

On a materials standpoint, even France was better equipped than the Germans at the outset of hostilities (as in the German invasion of France). France had more tanks and more mechanized divisions and equipment than the Nazis, but the French tactics and strategy dispersed and limited their utility and effectiveness.

The French Navy was as larger or larger than the Germans on most counts; so were the Brits.

The French air force was in bad shape in 1940 and this is directly attributable to pre-war politics, namely the ill-planned nationalization of the aircraft industry in 1936. The French army was huge and had the best tanks in the world at the time, but they were not otherwise prepared for modern war in any respect. French CinC Gamelin had little regard for radio or even telephones, for example. He did not communicate with field units except by motorcycle dispatch riders who left his headquarters every hour on the hour. French generals were mired in First World War if not Napoleonic thinking and the enlisted men were hastily recalled reservists for the most part, badly paid, poorly treated, and incompetently led.

The French and British navies were actually incomparably larger and stronger than the German Kriegsmarine, which placed many limits on German strategy as the war progressed.

40 Mark Pennington  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:23:37am

re: #31 CuriousLurker

Nice. I wonder what people would think if I said I had a “purely historical interest” in terrorism and spent time running around wearing a suicide vest filled with fake explosives while reenacting terrorist attacks…

heh.

At least this guy isn’t doing very well: elections.nytimes.com

41 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:23:52am

re: #35 Dark_Falcon

And that is acceptable. American Civil War reenactments have a honorable history in our nation (and in the UK, too) and they are not a problem as long as people remember the wrongs of the Southern cause.

I suppose I could get a balaclava and Armalite-18 and reenact the Troubles.

google.com

42 CuriousLurker  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:25:25am

re: #40 beekiller

heh.

At least this guy isn’t doing very well: [Link: elections.nytimes.com…]

Thank goodness for that. Ick.

43 Political Atheist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:26:58am

re: #34 beekiller

I’m not buying the father/son bonding ritual explanation.

I’m beyond “not buying”. That’s just teaching the insanity. Makes it worse.

44 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:27:10am

re: #41 Decatur Deb

I suppose I could get a balaclava and Armalite-18 and reenact the Troubles.

[Link: www.google.com…]

That ain’t funny, given that IRA remnants have actually killed British police this year. At least one bomb attack and two sniper killings.

45 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:27:53am

I’ve always thought that WW2 German uniforms were deliberately designed for fetishistic appeal. Allied uniforms, otoh, were, well, somewhat lacking in any kind of sex appeal (except for British WAAF outfits, which were more cute than sexy).

46 Tigger2005  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:28:08am

Christine O’Donnell and Rich Iott can do an ad together!

“I’m not a witch…”

“… and I’m not a Nazi!”

(Smiling at each other, then at the camera)

“We’re YOU!”

47 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:28:49am

re: #44 Dark_Falcon

That ain’t funny, given that IRA remnants have actually killed British police this year. At least one bomb attack and two sniper killings.

Yup. Time doesn’t blow away all the stink.

48 Tigger2005  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:28:56am

re: #45 Shiplord Kirel

I’ve always thought that WW2 German uniforms were deliberately designed for fetishistic appeal. Allied uniforms, otoh, were, well, somewhat lacking in any kind of sex appeal (except for British WAAF outfits, which were more cute than sexy).

Ilka, She-Wolf of the SS…

49 Charleston Chew  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:30:20am

re: #45 Shiplord Kirel

The leather jackets of American bomber crews were pretty cool looking and did well in the civilian world. Didn’t Eisenhower’s short jacket become a civilian fashion, as well?

50 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:31:03am

Later kids, I’m off to my Imperial Japanese Army re-enacters club, today we’re doing the Bataan Death March, tomorrow Nanking.

re: #31 CuriousLurker

Nice. I wonder what people would think if I said I had a “purely historical interest” in terrorism and spent time running around wearing a suicide vest filled with fake explosives while reenacting terrorist attacks…

You need to sex it up a little, head on over to Hot Topic and get the see through mesh suicide vest.

51 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:31:06am

re: #49 Charleston Chew

Hit my nic.

52 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:31:32am

re: #45 Shiplord Kirel

I’ve always thought that WW2 German uniforms were deliberately designed for fetishistic appeal. Allied uniforms, otoh, were, well, somewhat lacking in any kind of sex appeal (except for British WAAF outfits, which were more cute than sexy).

You’re not that far off. Himmler designed the SS parade uniform with a view towards “luck with the ladies” (his words, not mine). Remember that the SS were to be his racial elite as well, and they were supposed to be married to “Aryan” women of the highest quality.

53 Charleston Chew  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:32:33am

re: #51 Decatur Deb

Skin on leather. Nice.

54 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:34:43am

re: #49 Charleston Chew

The leather jackets of American bomber crews were pretty cool looking and did well in the civilian world. Didn’t Eisenhower’s short jacket become a civilian fashion, as well?

Yes. Of course, it was Patton who truly modified his uniform for looks. He wore high riding boots and two Colt Peacemaker revolvers with ivory grips. On fact I recently learned was that Patton only loaded each revolver with five rounds and kept the hammer over the empty chamber to prevent an accidental discharge.

55 Mark Pennington  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:35:05am

His next ad will be: I’m not a Nazi. I’m you.

56 Sunstrider  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:36:03am

I don’t really see this as especially outrageous. Maybe bad taste and a little sad, but evidence for crypto-fascism? Seems like a bit of a stretch.

By the logic of this post, everyone who plays the Wehrmacht in Call of Duty WaW harbors Nazi sympathies.

Oh, and all of those Renaissance faire types secretly desire the reinstitution of serfdom and feudalism.

57 Mark Pennington  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:36:05am

re: #46 Tigger2005

Christine O’Donnell and Rich Iott can do an ad together!

“I’m not a witch…”

“… and I’m not a Nazi!”

(Smiling at each other, then at the camera)

“We’re YOU!”

lol I didn’t see this when I posted.

58 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:36:13am

Has Michael Steele explained yet that this is Pelosi’s fault?

59 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:36:27am

Since we’ve got a WWII them going:

Youtube Video

60 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:36:36am

re: #37 Killgore Trout

Heh. Good point.

Allahu Spaghettibar!

61 kirkspencer  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:36:44am

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Well, the Germans did have better officers and enlisted men than the Red Army (as a whole). But much of that was due to the much stronger German economy. Germany was (and still is) far more economically advanced than Russia and that allowed for much better educated men.
[snip]

I disagree to the cause of the better officers and enlisted men. I think the Great Purge, particularly of the army, was more significant. Removing (and in most cases killing) 80% of officers of colonel and above and almost half of those under that rank only a few years before Germany left the army leaderless and paranoid. It’s worth recalling the Great Purge of the army was only a small part of the 1936-1938 Great Purge.

The fanatics took over and got rid of those who had disagreed with them, leaving them vulnerable.

62 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:38:38am

re: #56 Sunstrider

I don’t really see this as especially outrageous. Maybe bad taste and a little sad, but evidence for crypto-fascism? Seems like a bit of a stretch.

By the logic of this post, everyone who plays the Wehrmacht in Call of Duty WaW harbors Nazi sympathies.

Oh, and all of those Renaissance faire types secretly desire the reinstitution of serfdom and feudalism.

Until last week you could play as “Taliban” in the MoH wargme. Someone must have thought it was in poor taste.

MSNBC Video

63 brownbagj  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:40:15am

My wife is mostly Native American. Maybe I should suggest dressing up as a Union soldier and force her and the rest of her relatives to mock walk the trail of tears.

//

Ugly stuff.

64 Charleston Chew  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:40:42am

re: #56 Sunstrider

The comparison to a Renaissance fair misses the specificity of the costume. If he liked dressing up like “1940s man” in a wool suit and fedora, I’d have no problem. The problem is that he chose a very specific sort of person to dress as.

65 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:41:02am

re: #61 kirkspencer

I disagree to the cause of the better officers and enlisted men. I think the Great Purge, particularly of the army, was more significant. Removing (and in most cases killing) 80% of officers of colonel and above and almost half of those under that rank only a few years before Germany left the army leaderless and paranoid. It’s worth recalling the Great Purge of the army was only a small part of the 1936-1938 Great Purge.

The fanatics took over and got rid of those who had disagreed with them, leaving them vulnerable.

German enlisted quality was much better than the Red Army, due to better education and training. As for officers, you have a point. But don’t just say “the fanatics”. The Great Purge was Stalin’s idea, and was designed to consolidate his own power.

66 KingKenrod  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:41:03am

re: #56 Sunstrider

I don’t really see this as especially outrageous. Maybe bad taste and a little sad, but evidence for crypto-fascism? Seems like a bit of a stretch.

By the logic of this post, everyone who plays the Wehrmacht in Call of Duty WaW harbors Nazi sympathies.

Oh, and all of those Renaissance faire types secretly desire the reinstitution of serfdom and feudalism.

I think there are only two reasons to dress up like a Nazi: because you want to be them, or you want to mock them. Benign admiration doesn’t seem like quite enough motivation to dress up like one and go out in public.

67 brownbagj  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:42:07am

Or, I could dress up like Ted Bundy. Other than the murdering, raping stuff, he was a pretty smart guy.

//

68 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:44:50am

re: #60 Varek Raith

Allahu Spaghettibar!

Oahu Snackbar!

69 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:45:17am

re: #66 KingKenrod

I think there are only two reasons to dress up like a Nazi: because you want to be them, or you want to mock them. Benign admiration doesn’t seem like quite enough motivation to dress up like one and go out in public.

What about providing the OpFor for WWII re-enactments?

70 kirkspencer  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:46:40am

re: #65 Dark_Falcon

German enlisted quality was much better than the Red Army, due to better education and training. As for officers, you have a point. But don’t just say “the fanatics”. The Great Purge was Stalin’s idea, and was designed to consolidate his own power.

I’ll grant the enlisted quality. But no, I’ll stick with “the fanatics”. While Stalin was the leader, he was ably assisted by a number of individuals such as Yagoda and Yezhov.

71 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:47:57am
72 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:47:57am

re: #15 Romantic Heretic

If they think so highly of German military achievement I would think they’d dress up in Wehrmacht uniforms instead. It was people like Heinz Guderian and Erich von Manstein who were responsible for Nazi Germany’s success in WWII. The Waffen SS were for the most part just murdering bastards.

And I thank God every day that the Nazis did so much to smother those people’s genius.

I am not about to defend this bastard’s actions or maintain that they are perfectly harmless and free of any ideological shadings, but would like to point out that the Waffen SS are not identical with the Einsatz-SS, who ran the concentration camps and executed civilians.

The Waffen-SS was highly ideologically drilled, but mostly served as elite units alongside the regular army. They were also allowed to conscript non-Germans, which the Wehrmacht could not until the end of the war. There were Dutch, Belgian and Scandanavian SS units.

But when the allies decided to resurrect the German Army in the 1950’s and needed ex-WWII officers to staff it, they came on the general talking point: Wehrmacht good Germans just serving their country, SS, bad Nazis.

73 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:48:30am

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

What about providing the OpFor for WWII re-enactments?

Too soon.

On the other hand there are more Roman legionnaires marching today than under Augustus.

larp.com

74 Sunstrider  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:49:35am

re: #65 Dark_Falcon

German enlisted quality was much better than the Red Army, due to better education and training. As for officers, you have a point. But don’t just say “the fanatics”. The Great Purge was Stalin’s idea, and was designed to consolidate his own power.

Eh, that really depends what period of time you’re looking at. By ‘45 the jerries were all tapped out of manpower - old men, teenagers and medical discharges were rounded up for the front. IIRC there was a German soldier, previously repatriated from a US POW camp on medical grounds, that was captured during a Soviet offensive.

re: #64 Charleston Chew

The comparison to a Renaissance fair misses the specificity of the costume. If he liked dressing up like “1940s man” in a wool suit and fedora, I’d have no problem. The problem is that he chose a very specific sort of person to dress as.

If he dressed up in a noble’s costume, does that mean he supports the oppression of serfs and prima noctae?

75 Charleston Chew  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:51:09am

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

The problem I have with coming up with excuses for dressing up as a Nazi is that it’s just so darn easy to not dress up as a Nazi. Everyday, billions of people don’t dress as Nazis. It’s just that easy. So if you’re gonna, your reasoning had better be pretty strong.

76 palomino  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:54:29am

re: #56 Sunstrider

I don’t really see this as especially outrageous. Maybe bad taste and a little sad, but evidence for crypto-fascism? Seems like a bit of a stretch.

By the logic of this post, everyone who plays the Wehrmacht in Call of Duty WaW harbors Nazi sympathies.

Oh, and all of those Renaissance faire types secretly desire the reinstitution of serfdom and feudalism.

Really? Well, Halloween is just around the corner. Why don’t you dress as a Nazi SS Officer and then try to explain to people how it’s just like Call of Duty or the Renaissance Faire.

77 Varek Raith  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:55:33am

re: #74 Sunstrider

Problem is, this GOP candidate’s uniform is wrong, wrong, wrong.
As in, they couldn’t bother to even get it right.
So, that kills the whole “historical accuracy” and “re-enactment” thing for me.
So…
Why do it?

78 Cardio (formerly JRCMYP)  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:58:05am

re: #56 Sunstrider

I don’t really see this as especially outrageous. Maybe bad taste and a little sad, but evidence for crypto-fascism? Seems like a bit of a stretch.

By the logic of this post, everyone who plays the Wehrmacht in Call of Duty WaW harbors Nazi sympathies.

Oh, and all of those Renaissance faire types secretly desire the reinstitution of serfdom and feudalism.

You might be surprised by how their inaccurate and romantic vision of the past pretty much means that they *do* wish for a re-institution of serfdom and feudalism.

79 Charles Johnson  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:58:16am

80 jaunte  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 11:59:09am

re: #75 Charleston Chew

The problem I have with coming up with excuses for dressing up as a Nazi is that it’s just so darn easy to not dress up as a Nazi. Everyday, billions of people don’t dress as Nazis. It’s just that easy. So if you’re gonna, your reasoning had better be pretty strong.

“I was in the closet, and I slipped.”

81 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:01:10pm

re: #77 Varek Raith

Problem is, this GOP candidate’s uniform is wrong, wrong, wrong.
As in, they couldn’t bother to even get it right.
So, that kills the whole “historical accuracy” and “re-enactment” thing for me.
So…
Why do it?

For several reasons—

1. They’re a**holes.
2. They’re not the brightest bulbs in the chandelier.
3. They’re a**holes.
4. They plan “re-enactments” so they have an excuse to dress up.
5. They’re a**holes.
6. They’re “bonding” with like-minded men.
7. They’re a**holes.
8. Calling it “re-enactment” is a cover for dressing up like historical racists.
9. They’re a**holes.

82 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:04:44pm

re: #74 Sunstrider

Eh, that really depends what period of time you’re looking at. By ‘45 the jerries were all tapped out of manpower - old men, teenagers and medical discharges were rounded up for the front. IIRC there was a German soldier, previously repatriated from a US POW camp on medical grounds, that was captured during a Soviet offensive.

Yeah. The German division (IIRC the 71st ID) defending Walcheren Island in the Scheldt Estuary was all men with digestive ailments or wounds who could not regularly eat the the rye bread that was the normal fare in the German Army. Battalions of such men were known as “white bread” units. Despite that limitations, the German soldiers on Walcheren turned the island into a fortress and fought hard. The same factors that limited it also ensured the 71st had a large number of skilled veterans. Thankfully, the Allies had the heavy firepower and specialized armor needed to win the day.

83 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:05:23pm

re: #78 JRCMYP

You might be surprised by how their inaccurate and romantic vision of the past pretty much means that they *do* wish for a re-institution of serfdom and feudalism.

Those who wish for a return to those “better days” always assume that they’ll be the nobles and not the serfs, just like those who yearn for “God’s Law” theocracies always assume that the particular “God’s Law” will be the laws of the cult they’re in.

84 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:07:47pm

re: #83 ClaudeMonet

Those who wish for a return to those “better days” always assume that they’ll be the nobles and not the serfs, just like those who yearn for “God’s Law” theocracies always assume that the particular “God’s Law” will be the laws of the cult they’re in.

If their names are Smith, Carter, Fletcher, Turner, or Farmer they’d be fooked.

85 webevintage  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:14:25pm

Here’s a hint kiddies:
If you are planning on running for Congress at some point (or any political office) you might want to not reenact WW2 as a Nazi…and if you do please try not to pose for pictures.

86 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:29:15pm

re: #56 Sunstrider

I don’t really see this as especially outrageous. Maybe bad taste and a little sad, but evidence for crypto-fascism? Seems like a bit of a stretch.

By the logic of this post, everyone who plays the Wehrmacht in Call of Duty WaW harbors Nazi sympathies.

Oh, and all of those Renaissance faire types secretly desire the reinstitution of serfdom and feudalism.

I think I’ll dress up as Torquemada for Purim, that should go over well.

87 Mentis Fugit  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:29:25pm

re: #45 Shiplord Kirel

I’ve always thought that WW2 German uniforms were deliberately designed for fetishistic appeal. Allied uniforms, otoh, were, well, somewhat lacking in any kind of sex appeal (except for British WAAF outfits, which were more cute than sexy).


“We looked like sacks of shit tied in the middle.” - Spike Milligan, ‘D’ Battery, 56th Heavy Regiment Royal Artillery

88 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:32:48pm

re: #84 Decatur Deb

If their names are Smith, Carter, Fletcher, Turner, or Farmer they’d be fooked.

I’ll be the fool and ask the question—What does this mean?

It’s probably something that will have me saying, “Duh!”, accompanied by a good, hard smack to the side of the head.

89 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:35:31pm

re: #88 ClaudeMonet

I’ll be the fool and ask the question—What does this mean?

It’s probably something that will have me saying, “Duh!”, accompanied by a good, hard smack to the side of the head.

Those names derive from occupations that wouldn’t be at the laird’s table. There are many, many, others. (Not me, our family crest is listed in the ad in the back of the airline magazines.)

90 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:39:53pm

re: #89 Decatur Deb

Those names derive from occupations that wouldn’t be at the laird’s table. There are many, many, others. (Not me, our family crest is listed in the ad in the back of the airline magazines.)

Ah, thank you. At least it wasn’t something obvious.

As one of those evil Joos, I would never be allowed in the castle, let alone dine at the laird’s table. Unless the laird needed to borrow money so he could raise an army and go out to slaughter people.

91 Mentis Fugit  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:40:25pm

Youtube Video
And the uniforms are more authentic.

92 Ojoe  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:44:56pm

What we really need are more nudists in the house and senate.

93 Ojoe  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:45:54pm

re: #84 Decatur Deb

“Felkner” means “Hod Carrier.”

94 Ojoe  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:46:22pm

“Gillis” means “Servant.”

95 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:48:42pm

re: #92 Ojoe

What we really need are more nudists in the house and senate.

Where do you think you are, Italy?

hartford-hwp.com

96 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:53:07pm

re: #2 lawhawk

So, it’s a military reenactment and they don’t condone the actions taken by the Nazis. It’s all to realistically engage in game playing. I’m not buying it…

Or, are they trying to engage in the Werner von Braun defense? Once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down. That’s not my department, says Werner von Braun.

About the only one who can dress up as a Nazi and get away with it is Mel Brooks - when he incessantly lampoons ‘em.

So far, Ronald Reagan is the only major American politician to have appeared in a Nazi uniform, and he had a good excuse.

I’d like to keep it like that.

97 Ojoe  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:56:51pm

re: #95 Decatur Deb

From your link: What an Improvement over politics in the USA!

ROME (December 16, 1997 4:42 p.m. EST nando.net) - Some 200 dairy farmers, a cow named Ercolina and a nude porn star picketed Italy’s Senate Tuesday amid continued protests of milk fines imposed by the European Union.

“I’m here to support the rights of the milk producers,” said porn star Jessica Massaro, who wore only a cowbell around her neck and leather boots — but her body was painted with black and white spots like a Fresian cow.

She was accompanied by about 200 dairy farmers and their mascot Ercolina, who handed out barbecued sausages and wine to passersby as part of the latest protest in the center of Rome.


* * *

The cow’s name means “Little Hercules.”

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:57:00pm

re: #9 goddamnedfrank

“You couldn’t do Civil War re-enacting if somebody didn’t play the role of the Confederates”

Exactly, and those people creep me out as well.

I don’t say that it’s wrong to play a Confederate soldier on the weekends, but I have to admit it would cast some real doubt for me over a politician. Similarly, this.

Now, a hypothetical: if a Democrat had played a Soviet in WWII reenactments (which is probably what I’d do if I was into this, both because they had women in combat, and because I grew up surrounded by vets of the Great Patriotic War), what would this man’s backers have to say on the subject?

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 12:58:18pm

re: #10 negativ

You’d think they’d at least bother to get the uniforms right.

Some people get very into this. There’s a group down around San Bernardino that managed to get a period Soviet Tank. They can’t use it in combat, but they drive it around at events.

Does seem odd that the uniforms are off. What’s wrong with ‘em?

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:01:18pm

re: #16 Shiplord Kirel

This is pretty much bullshit in terms of serious military history. Germany was in fact larger and more populous than every country it invaded during World War 2 except the Soviet Union. Additionally, they had a number of allies themselves. Japan diverted a huge part of the US and British effort, while Italy contributed far more to the war than is commonly acknowledged. In my experience, these re-enactors and Third Reich fans tend to unfairly denigrate the Italians, a position derived ironically enough from British war-time propaganda. Compared to such countries as France and Poland, Germany was far better prepared for war, since the country had been on a war footing essentially since Hitler’s rise to power in 1933. The allies’ failure to prepare or recognize the danger is a whole field of history in itself but it does not particularly endorse the idea of Aryan military superiority.
This fawning admiration of Nazi military prowess and martial virtue is a companion ideology to the “Aryan technology cult” that I posted about a few weeks ago.

When I graduated from college, one of my friends was ‘engaged’ to this boy who spent some time at our graduation lunch talking about what a military genius Hitler was.

Photos from the event show my father, and several other history buffs on the lawn, eating sandwiches like their lives depended on it.

He then talked about his military career (later discovered to be bogus), and announced loudly that women shouldn’t be in combat because they could be captured and raped.

My grandma, of blessed memory, smiled and said, “Well, so could you be, dear, but you haven’t let that stop you from serving your country. I think that’s very brave.”

He went pale green, and shut up for a while.

101 Ojoe  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:03:28pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

What a Grandma you had!

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:04:24pm

re: #31 CuriousLurker

Nice. I wonder what people would think if I said I had a “purely historical interest” in terrorism and spent time running around wearing a suicide vest filled with fake explosives while reenacting terrorist attacks…

LOL!

For some reason, that reminded me of another blog I used to play on, where some guy had just found out about WWII reenactors, and thought it was weird. “There are people still alive who fought in WWII,” he said. “If when I’m old, there’s guys running around playing Vietnam, it’s going to feel really bizarre to me.”

Someone else posted back, “Uh, Bob, hate to break it to you, but…”

A minute later, “WHAT? That’s ridiculous. What do they DO? Oh, never mind, don’t tell me…”

103 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:05:35pm

re: #36 Fozzie Bear

Justice Thomas’ wife is now the direct beneficiary of the ruling her husband made in the Citizen’s United case. She’s started her own 501(C)(4) called “Liberty Central”, which is currently advertising on Rush Limbaugh and Mark Levin’s websites. The group has already garnered a $500,000 and a $50,000 donation, both donated anonymously, thanks to the recent SCOTUS ruling. Under the recent ruling, the tax-exempt 501(C)(4) groups are required to spend less than half of their funding on political advocacy, though there is no mechanism in place to verify or enforce this requirement.
Liberty Central states that it’s primary goal is opposing the “leftist tyranny” of the Obama administration.

Link: [Link: www.nytimes.com…]

I don’t totally know what to think about that. I don’t think you lose your right to be a partisan nut when your husband is a SCJ, but it does look a little weird.

104 Linden Arden  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:06:34pm

When Nazi artifacts are mentioned I always think of the Lester’s neighbor in American Beauty.

I loved that movie and my wife and best friend did not.

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:08:46pm

re: #64 Charleston Chew

The comparison to a Renaissance fair misses the specificity of the costume. If he liked dressing up like “1940s man” in a wool suit and fedora, I’d have no problem. The problem is that he chose a very specific sort of person to dress as.

There are people who dress up forties civilian. Mostly manic swing dancers. Some of the girls even get seam lines tattooed on their legs. Mostly harmless, although some of them are a little too obsessed with how GREAT things were in their chosen decade.

106 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:10:03pm

re: #2 lawhawk

So, it’s a military reenactment and they don’t condone the actions taken by the Nazis. It’s all to realistically engage in game playing. I’m not buying it…

Or, are they trying to engage in the Werner von Braun defense? Once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down. That’s not my department, says Werner von Braun.

About the only one who can dress up as a Nazi and get away with it is Mel Brooks - when he incessantly lampoons ‘em.

They do make movies about the war, and in those movies, some actors play Germans. Amateur reenactors play both sides in all sorts of historical settings.

But why would it be the SS? Why, especially, SS Wiking? SS Wiking was a volunteer division recruited from traitors in Norway, Belgium, Denmark, Netherlands etc. who self-identified as Nordics. Almost all the people who do re-enacting are innocent of all sympathy for the bad guys. But the choice of division really stinks.

This is a horse of a different color from, say, a reenactment of some incident in the battle of Stalingrad.

As to the remark about the Nazi military record being incredible, this is not adulation. It’s realism, and Iott is not the first to say so. Charles de Gaulle, visiting Stalingrad some years after the war, remarked to his Soviet hosts, as he gazed across the city from the hill that dominates its view, (Mamayev Kurgan, wikipedia’s account
photo …

incredible


Incredible that the Soviets were able to make this stand?
Incredible that the Germans got this far.
107 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:10:20pm

re: #33 Dark_Falcon

Actually, the Matilda Mk. II had a co-axial MG. Of note is that it was a BESA, which fired the standard German 7.92mm cartridge. The British did that to avoid redesigning the gun (it was a Czech design).

Thanks. I couldn’t remember and was too lazy to break out my old Squad Leader™ collection to check.

108 Linden Arden  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:11:20pm

I am amazed at how much folks here know about WWII.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:11:29pm

re: #74 Sunstrider

Eh, that really depends what period of time you’re looking at. By ‘45 the jerries were all tapped out of manpower - old men, teenagers and medical discharges were rounded up for the front. IIRC there was a German soldier, previously repatriated from a US POW camp on medical grounds, that was captured during a Soviet offensive.

re: #64 Charleston Chew

If he dressed up in a noble’s costume, does that mean he supports the oppression of serfs and prima noctae?

Ius primae nocta is almost certainly myth.

110 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:11:47pm

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

When you’re strafing through the day’s threads does it feel like you’re grading papers?

111 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:14:35pm

Hitlers victories were political ones, not necessarily military: he took Austriaa nd Czechoslovakia without firing a shot, he knew that the western Allies would not mobilize in time to confront him over Poland and left only a skeleton force on the French border, and he knew that the Belgians had refused to even plan a joint defense against him in the West for fear of “provoking” Germany to violate their neutrality.

And his greatest defeat was a political one: he started treating occupied areas of the Ukraine and White Russia like conquered territory before he had finally defeated the USSR and the populace turned against him. His supply lines and rear areas were never safe from partisans after that.

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:15:53pm

re: #86 goddamnedfrank

I think I’ll dress up as Torquemada for Purim, that should go over well.

If you do, I’ll have to tell folks I couldn’t Torquemada it.

113 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:16:54pm

re: #90 ClaudeMonet

Ah, thank you. At least it wasn’t something obvious.

As one of those evil Joos, I would never be allowed in the castle, let alone dine at the laird’s table. Unless the laird needed to borrow money so he could raise an army and go out to slaughter people.

Irish and Jewish here. I’m not getting above the salt on SOOOO many levels.

And the English side is named Smith.

114 Romantic Heretic  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:19:49pm

re: #83 ClaudeMonet

Those who wish for a return to those “better days” always assume that they’ll be the nobles and not the serfs, just like those who yearn for “God’s Law” theocracies always assume that the particular “God’s Law” will be the laws of the cult they’re in.

Yep. Few ever say, “I support this idea of how the world should be so much that I’ll exist on the bottom of the ladder to support it.”

Because in their minds, they’re special.

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:20:18pm

re: #110 Decatur Deb

When you’re strafing through the day’s threads does it feel like you’re grading papers?

A bit.

116 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:22:48pm

re: #74 Sunstrider

Eh, that really depends what period of time you’re looking at. By ‘45 the jerries were all tapped out of manpower - old men, teenagers and medical discharges were rounded up for the front. IIRC there was a German soldier, previously repatriated from a US POW camp on medical grounds, that was captured during a Soviet offensive.

re: #64 Charleston Chew

If he dressed up in a noble’s costume, does that mean he supports the oppression of serfs and prima noctae?

One of those Jerries was Ratzinger, now Pope, but at the time, a child. One of the most improbable items in this vein concerns a construction battalion captured at Cherbourg by the Americans. It was under German command, working for the Germans, but it was not itself German. The rank and file consisted of Koreans! They’d been enslaved by the Japanese and employed in the Japanese “Khalkin Gol” Mongolian border incursion of 1938. The Japanese got royally thrashed by the Soviets under Zhukov, and this particular construction battalion had been captured, more or less intact.

The Soviets weren’t particularly intent on vengeance against those slaves, but they could come in handy some day…and they were sent to the front in 1941. There, they were captured again, this time by the Germans. Who took them slaves and put them to work at Cherbourg, constructing their Atlantic Wall.

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:24:56pm

re: #114 Romantic Heretic

Yep. Few ever say, “I support this idea of how the world should be so much that I’ll exist on the bottom of the ladder to support it.”

Because in their minds, they’re special.

There was some British show where they reenacted a well-to-do Edwardian household.

You saw how the servants worked their asses off, ridiculous hours, so these people could live a comfortable, gracious life.

The woman who played the wife went off on this whole riff in one of the late interviews about how much had been LOST now that people didn’t live like this anymore, it was just so GRACIOUS, and LOVELY, and you had time for the IMPORTANT things in life.

I could have slapped her. Yes, lady, when other people get up at five in the morning to make you breakfast, and do your laundry, and get half a day off a week, I’m sure it feels lovely. To you.

118 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:25:55pm

re: #111 ralphieboy

Hitlers victories were political ones, not necessarily military: he took Austriaa nd Czechoslovakia without firing a shot, he knew that the western Allies would not mobilize in time to confront him over Poland and left only a skeleton force on the French border, and he knew that the Belgians had refused to even plan a joint defense against him in the West for fear of “provoking” Germany to violate their neutrality.

And his greatest defeat was a political one: he started treating occupied areas of the Ukraine and White Russia like conquered territory before he had finally defeated the USSR and the populace turned against him. His supply lines and rear areas were never safe from partisans after that.

That wasn’t the biggest consequence. The biggest consequence was almost invisible: had the Germans treated those territories the same as they treated the Netherlands or Belgium, for instance, they could surely have raised a dozen SS Wiking type divisions from Ukrainians with bitter memories of Stalin’s engineered famine of the 1920s.

119 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:26:29pm

re: #116 lostlakehiker

One of those Jerries was Ratzinger, now Pope, but at the time, a child. One of the most improbable items in this vein concerns a construction battalion captured at Cherbourg by the Americans. It was under German command, working for the Germans, but it was not itself German. The rank and file consisted of Koreans! They’d been enslaved by the Japanese and employed in the Japanese “Khalkin Gol” Mongolian border incursion of 1938. The Japanese got royally thrashed by the Soviets under Zhukov, and this particular construction battalion had been captured, more or less intact.

The Soviets weren’t particularly intent on vengeance against those slaves, but they could come in handy some day…and they were sent to the front in 1941. There, they were captured again, this time by the Germans. Who took them slaves and put them to work at Cherbourg, constructing their Atlantic Wall.

Jeez—that’s a bunch of guys with some bad karma.

120 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:29:20pm

re: #119 Decatur Deb

Jeez—that’s a bunch of guys with some bad karma.

What happened to them after that? Did they get repatriated to Korea—and stuck in the North?

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:29:52pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

There was some British show where they reenacted a well-to-do Edwardian household.

You saw how the servants worked their asses off, ridiculous hours, so these people could live a comfortable, gracious life.

The woman who played the wife went off on this whole riff in one of the late interviews about how much had been LOST now that people didn’t live like this anymore, it was just so GRACIOUS, and LOVELY, and you had time for the IMPORTANT things in life.

I could have slapped her. Yes, lady, when other people get up at five in the morning to make you breakfast, and do your laundry, and get half a day off a week, I’m sure it feels lovely. To you.

The day the ‘family’ drove away from the manor for the last time, the downstairs maid and the footman stripped down and jumped into the master bed together. (They’d gotten friendly during the show.)

The butler had to pry them out to get them to help with the final clean-up.

122 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:32:02pm

re: #120 ClaudeMonet

What happened to them after that? Did they get repatriated to Korea—and stuck in the North?

That story needs to go into a “Quitcherbitchin” campaign.

123 Wendell Zurkowitz (slave of the waffle light)  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:34:56pm

re: #116 lostlakehiker

One of those Jerries was Ratzinger, now Pope, but at the time, a child.

There was a big blow-up in Germany when it turned out that Günther Grqass, Nobel Prize lauerate for literature, and a major pacifist and social reformer, often cited as the “conscience of post-war Germany” had served in the Waffen-SS.

He was a teenager at the time and had been drafted into the unit, most of the scandal involved the fact that he had managed to cover up the fact until very late in his life.

124 Decatur Deb  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:46:24pm

Must find food. BBL.

125 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:53:58pm

re: #5 Varek Raith

Geez, dressing up as Confederates and Nazis.
How…
Odd.

I know! The Confederates merely wanted to enslave people while the Nazis just sought to exterminate an entire population. Details, details…

//////

126 sunstrider  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 2:50:35pm

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

I don’t say that it’s wrong to play a Confederate soldier on the weekends, but I have to admit it would cast some real doubt for me over a politician. Similarly, this.

Now, a hypothetical: if a Democrat had played a Soviet in WWII reenactments (which is probably what I’d do if I was into this, both because they had women in combat, and because I grew up surrounded by vets of the Great Patriotic War), what would this man’s backers have to say on the subject?

I wouldn’t care. Hell, he could be an NKVD commissar for that matter, assuming he disavowed all interest in shooting Poles and kulaks.

127 Gus  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 3:17:33pm

Reenactors have been used in numerous films including Steven Spielberg’s “Saving Private Ryan”. Ironically it was later found that there were some neo-Nazi infiltrators within the reenactment group used for “Saving Private Ryan”. While there may be an occasional controversy from time to time it is on the level. The German reenactors are not only used for film but they’re also seen from time to time at air shows, D-Day at Normandy events, and other military shows.

Historical reenactment

Historical reenactment is an educational activity in which participants attempt to recreate some aspects of a historical event or period. This may be as narrow as a specific moment from a battle, such as the reenactment of Pickett’s Charge at the Great Reunion of 1913, or as broad as an entire period, such as Regency reenactment.

[…]

Criticism

Reenactors are sometimes looked on with suspicion, particularly by military veterans, but also by elements of the general public. It is often difficult for veterans or the public to understand why reenactors do what they do, or there may be questions as to the motivation, or the knowledge of the reenactors.

[…]

A final concern mentioned by Thompson’s book is the “fantasy farb”, or tendency of reenactors to gravitate towards “elite” units such as commandos, paratroopers, or Waffen-SS units resulting in an under-representation in the reenactment community of what were the most common types of military troops in the period being reenacted. This is largely drawn from a North American perspective, although there are parallel issues on the European scene, such as the tendency in Britain for Napoleonic War reenactors to perform as members of the 95th Rifles (perhaps due to the popularity of Sharpe) and larger proportions of plate-armoured soldiers in later medieval groups. In the UK there are multi-period events such as ‘History in Action’ where groups get to look at each other’s appearance and performances as well as perform for the general public. One other concern which can cause misunderstandings are in countries where weapons of most forms are legally or socially frowned upon (such as in the UK). Reenactors own interactions with the public, and the work of volunteer groups like NARES, help to mitigate such issues.

128 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 5:21:25pm

re: #120 ClaudeMonet

What happened to them after that? Did they get repatriated to Korea—and stuck in the North?

Afraid so. If they weren’t executed by the Soviets for “collaboration.” Stalin was like that.

129 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 5:34:53pm

re: #16 Shiplord Kirel

This is pretty much bullshit in terms of serious military history. Germany was in fact larger and more populous than every country it invaded during World War 2 except the Soviet Union. Additionally, they had a number of allies themselves. Japan diverted a huge part of the US and British effort, while Italy contributed far more to the war than is commonly acknowledged. In my experience, these re-enactors and Third Reich fans tend to unfairly denigrate the Italians, a position derived ironically enough from British war-time propaganda. Compared to such countries as France and Poland, Germany was far better prepared for war, since the country had been on a war footing essentially since Hitler’s rise to power in 1933. The allies’ failure to prepare or recognize the danger is a whole field of history in itself but it does not particularly endorse the idea of Aryan military superiority.
This fawning admiration of Nazi military prowess and martial virtue is a companion ideology to the “Aryan technology cult” that I posted about a few weeks ago.

You put de Gaulle in the category of a fawning admirer, then? It’s just a fact that the Germans had better small unit leadership, better small arms, better tanks, and better command and control at the regimental, divisional, Corps, and Army level, than did the Western Allies, and apart from tanks, better than the Soviets. Up until Hitler’s psychological fixation with holding ground came to the fore, late in 1942, the Germans even had better operational and strategic leadership.

German tanks were all equipped with radios, while with the Soviets, only a few command tanks had that. This sort of thing gave the Germans a big edge in tank fights, enough of an edge to blunt what was on the face of it a crushing Soviet edge in numbers. At Kursk, for instance, the Russians were losing about 8 tanks for each 1 German. And that’s a big Soviet victory.

Aryan military superiority is an entirely different question from German. The Germans themselves deemed their British opponents “Aryan”. What happened in the early going was a product of better preparation and better prewar “doctrine”. And what happened at the end was a product of better engineering and science on the part of the Allies. Race had nothing to do with it; Brits, Americans, French, Germans, Russians, were all pretty much peas in the same pod as far as the race of their combat soldiers was concerned.

130 Intenzity  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 9:06:52pm

You can’t make this stuff up.

I have to laugh or else I will start a riot.

To all the GOP/TEA fans out there -

Youtube Video

131 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Oct 11, 2010 1:30:35pm

re: #56 Sunstrider

I don’t really see this as especially outrageous. Maybe bad taste and a little sad, but evidence for crypto-fascism? Seems like a bit of a stretch.

By the logic of this post, everyone who plays the Wehrmacht in Call of Duty WaW harbors Nazi sympathies.

Oh, and all of those Renaissance faire types secretly desire the reinstitution of serfdom and feudalism.

I’m a gamer dude, don’t lay that shit on me

It’s a LOT different to go source a Nazi uniform and then wear it in the company of a whole bunch of other people in Nazi uniforms than it is to play Day Of Defeat


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