Climate Denial is a Core Tea Party Value

EnvironmentOctober 2010 • Views: 5,695

The New York Times’ John M. Broder points out that climate change “doubt” (it’s actually categorical denial) is a Tea Party article of faith.

It’s true, of course, but it’s only one ingredient in the potpourri of bad craziness that is the Tea Party. At bottom, climate change denialism is part of the same anti-rational, anti-science, reality-rejecting ideology that keeps creationism alive — and that’s a very big ingredient in the modern Republican Party. As we’ve noted many times, it’s very often the same people and the same right wing think tanks behind both of these toxic belief systems.

Lisa Deaton, a small-business owner in Columbus, Ind., who started We the People Indiana, a Tea Party affiliate, is supporting [Tea Party candidate Todd] Young in part because of his stand against climate change legislation.

“They’re trying to use global warming against the people,” Ms. Deaton said. “It takes away our liberty.”

“Being a strong Christian,” she added, “I cannot help but believe the Lord placed a lot of minerals in our country and it’s not there to destroy us.”

As I was saying.

Jump to bottom

120 comments

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:31:05pm

Perfect post.

This is one of the many ways that these fundie faux Christians misconstrue scripture to suit their own ends.

One simple read will show that Man was created to be a gardener, no one who destroys creation.

Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:39:05pm

It's been quite a while since somebody tried to float the "climate denial is offensive because it sounds like Holocaust denial" talking point. Have they stopped with that one?

(I know. I can dream, can't I?)

bratwurst Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:39:55pm

Anyone care to take any bets as to how long it takes for someone in this thread to mention recent weather as a reason they are still not convinced of climate change?

HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:41:05pm

Or whenever global warming is mentioned throw a whine fit about Al Gore and elitist scientists.

jaunte Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:42:53pm

“Being a strong Christian,” she added, “I cannot help but believe the Lord placed a lot of minerals in our country and it’s not there to destroy us.”

I wonder if she thinks the Lord placed bigger oil fields in Saudi Arabia because he likes them better.

Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:43:15pm

I already know how the wingnut blogs are going to react to what I wrote about the timing of Juan Williams's move to Fox News: I'll be a conspiracy theorist in their alternate reality puppet show. They're tediously predictable.

Linden Arden Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:44:08pm

I'd vote for Paris Hilton over any teabagger.

At least with Paris she would have random chance of getting something right.

Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:44:21pm

g'night Charles, g'night lizardroids.

Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:44:40pm

re: #8 wozzablog

eeeek. not a flounce, repeat, not a flounce.

lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:45:55pm

re: #1 LudwigVanQuixote

Perfect post.

This is one of the many ways that these fundie faux Christians misconstrue scripture to suit their own ends.

One simple read will show that Man was created to be a gardener, no one who destroys creation.

We think alike sometimes. Maybe because the problems are simple enough that there's an answer we can just see. My earlier post on pretty much this topic:

Let's accept the premise for the sake of argument. God gave us the earth to do with as we please. It's ours, for our use. Made just for us, made just right, just like we like it.
So He's provided us with abundant passenger pigeons, easy meat, forever. We kill them all. He's provided us with abundant forests, easy wood, forever. We cut down the forests. He provides us with an atmosphere perfectly tuned to give us just the right climate. What should we do?

The instruction manual says not that the Garden is there for us to just eat from and enjoy. We are to tend it.

Vambo Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:46:44pm

sounds like one of those de-motivational posters...

OIL: The Lord dun put it dere.

lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:47:48pm

re: #7 Linden Arden

I'd vote for Paris Hilton over any teabagger.

At least with Paris she would have random chance of getting something right.

I wonder about her. She was pretty and bright, but then she got to playing with drugs and losing more weight than was good for her. It would be a pity if she were to lose her looks and her wits. She made the world a bit more fun.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:49:54pm

From the Article:

“It’s a flat-out lie,” Mr. Dennison said in an interview after the debate, adding that he had based his view on the preaching of Rush Limbaugh

Rush Limbaugh is a booze guzzling, pill popping, gold scam selling, racist, serial cheater who is currently working on his forth wife. He mocks those with illness and hates the idea of spending any money to help those less fortunate. How qualified a Christian he must be to preach.

and the teaching of Scripture. “I read my Bible,” Mr. Dennison said. “He made this earth for us to utilize.”

As stated above, one simple read will show that Man was created to be a gardener, not one who destroys creation.

“Carbon regulation, cap and trade, it’s all just a money-control avenue,” Ms. Khuri added.

Really??? It was originally a Reagan initiative to curb acid rain. It was run on by McCain and Palin as "a good conservative freemarket solution" some two short years ago. The GOP relies on the fact that the rubes have attention spans of house cats with ADD and less memory capacity than an old floppy disk.

“Some people say I’m extreme, but they said the John Birch Society was extreme, too.”

Because now JBS, is something normal to be accepted. Weep for the Republic.

The oil, coal and utility industries have collectively spent $500 million just since the beginning of 2009 to lobby against legislation to address climate change and to defeat candidates, like Mr. Hill, who support it...

Follow the money indeed. There is your conspiracy.

Those views in general align with those of the fossil fuel industries, which have for decades waged a concerted campaign to raise doubts about the science of global warming and to undermine policies devised to address it.

Like I said, follow the money.

They have created and lavishly financed institutes to produce anti-global-warming studies, paid for rallies and Web sites to question the science, and generated scores of economic analyses that purport to show that policies to reduce emissions of climate-altering gases will have a devastating effect on jobs and the overall economy.

All debunked lies, but to know that requires actually doing some research. The GOP can count on its base to not ever do such a thing, or even have the basic understanding of science or math to do it if they tried.

Their views are spread by a number of widely followed conservative opinion leaders, including Mr. Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, George Will and Sarah Palin, who oppose government programs to address climate change and who question the credibility and motives of the scientists who have raised alarms about it.

Like I said, follow the money.

In the mean time, AGW is real. If nothing is done, the science is very clear about the catastrophic consequences. We are looking at the loss of most coastal cities displacing almost a quarter of the world's population, the loss of most of our agriculture, drought and desertification over vast areas, mass starvation and spread of contagion. It will cause catastrophic damage to America and our way of life. It will cause the complete collapse of the global economy as we know it. It will cause billions of deaths. All of those things WILL, not might, but will eventually happen if nothing is done to change course.

HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:52:07pm

re: #13 LudwigVanQuixote

From the Article:

Rush Limbaugh is a booze guzzling, pill popping, gold scam selling, racist, serial cheater who is currently working on his forth wife. He mocks those with illness and hates the idea of spending any money to help those less fortunate. How qualified a Christian he must be to preach.

As stated above, one simple read will show that Man was created to be a gardener, not one who destroys creation.

Really??? It was originally a Reagan initiative to curb acid rain. It was run on by McCain and Palin as "a good conservative freemarket solution" some two short years ago. The GOP relies on the fact that the rubes have attention spans of house cats with ADD and less memory capacity than an old floppy disk.

Because now JBS, is something normal to be accepted. Weep for the Republic.

Follow the money indeed. There is your conspiracy.

Like I said, follow the money.

All debunked lies, but to know that requires actually doing some research. The GOP can count on its base to not ever do such a thing, or even have the basic understanding of science or math to do it if they tried.

Like I said, follow the money.

In the mean time, AGW is real. If nothing is done, the science is very clear about the catastrophic consequences. We are looking at the loss of most coastal cities displacing almost a quarter of the world's population, the loss of most of our agriculture, drought and desertification over vast areas, mass starvation and spread of contagion. It will cause catastrophic damage to America and our way of life. It will cause the complete collapse of the global economy as we know it. It will cause billions of deaths. All of those things WILL, not might, but will eventually happen if nothing is done to change course.

Please tell me Mr. Dennison is not a candidate for any elected position. SEriously this dude is getting his opinions based on the environment from Rush Limbaugh, a college drop out with less science credits to his name than I have (I'm a history major). The difference between me and a person like Limbaugh who is also weak in the sciences is unlike Rush I don't pretend to know climate science so I don't go around badmouthing scientists who have spent many years trying to understand how the world works.

lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:53:32pm

re: #3 bratwurst

Anyone care to take any bets as to how long it takes for someone in this thread to mention recent weather as a reason they are still not convinced of climate change?

Recent weather is certainly not the reason I am convinced of climate change. There's better reasons. Way better.

But recent weather has hardly been hurting the case. Red dot means hotter than normal, blue, colder. Nuff said

Dancing along the light of day Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:53:54pm

re: #13 LudwigVanQuixote

The money is where the action is.
For the good, the bad or the ugly.
Follow the money!

Heh! LVQ, I hope you have money following you!

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:54:53pm

re: #16 Floral Giraffe

The money is where the action is.
For the good, the bad or the ugly.
Follow the money!

Heh! LVQ, I hope you have money following you!

Me too! And you!

Phocid Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:56:17pm

Suggesting that skepticism about catastrophic manmade climate change is on a par with creationism is basically dishonest and shows ignorance of the fundamentals of the scientific method. Science is not a religion and challenging any particular viewpoint or theory is not a heresy.

Linden Arden Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:56:38pm

re: #12 lostlakehiker

I wonder about her. She was pretty and bright, but then she got to playing with drugs and losing more weight than was good for her. It would be a pity if she were to lose her looks and her wits. She made the world a bit more fun.

Like you I wish the best for her.

But mainly I was making a point about the body politic.

freetoken Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:56:43pm

Thing is, even for those with the best of intentions on being responsible to future generations by trying to conserve both whatever good things modern civilization has brought as well as the pre-existing, natural, environment in a human-friendly state (i.e., the Holocene climate), must realize how big of a battle reaching that goal will be.

There are so many imminent (within this century) issues that need to be addressed that anything less than thoughtful leaders and a fully informed citizenry will be a formula for some very hard times ahead.

freetoken Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:57:24pm

Just waiting for it...

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:58:45pm

re: #2 Charles

It's been quite a while since somebody tried to float the "climate denial is offensive because it sounds like Holocaust denial" talking point. Have they stopped with that one?

(I know. I can dream, can't I?)

Haven't heard it in a while myself. But I never heard it anywhere but here, so...meh, may not mean much.

Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:58:53pm

re: #18 Phocid

Suggesting that skepticism about catastrophic manmade climate change is on a par with creationism is basically dishonest and shows ignorance of the fundamentals of the scientific method. Science is not a religion and challenging any particular viewpoint or theory is not a heresy.

All right! That's pretty close to what I mentioned in #2. We have a winner!

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 8:59:11pm

re: #2 Charles

It's been quite a while since somebody tried to float the "climate denial is offensive because it sounds like Holocaust denial" talking point. Have they stopped with that one?

(I know. I can dream, can't I?)

In some sense, Climate Denial is much, much worse than Holocaust denial - and this said as a Jew who lost family to the Nazis.

Why?

Those family members who were murdered are dead. Nothing will bring them back.

AGW, if not averted, will kill us, our children and grand children - and in much greater numbers than the entire Second World War did. People who are not aware of the danger or flummoxed by the scope of the coming cataclysm (which can still be largely averted) don't get it.

brownbagj Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:03:55pm

So, I bought a car, made just for me.

I then put gas in it that had water as well. I shifted the hell out the gears and never changed the oil. I burned out tires and stomped on brakes to leave skid marks.

Should I expect that car to last forever the way I have treated it?

Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:04:48pm

That didn't take long.

lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:05:59pm

re: #18 Phocid

Suggesting that skepticism about catastrophic manmade climate change is on a par with creationism is basically dishonest and shows ignorance of the fundamentals of the scientific method. Science is not a religion and challenging any particular viewpoint or theory is not a heresy.

Scientific American has an article in the current issue about receiving skeptics politely, provided they make some sort of attempt to sound rational.

Challenging reality is, I would argue, heresy. Once the science is clear enough, to the point that the more intelligent challengers, the ringleaders, know in their heart that they're wrong, those challenges cross a moral line. From the point of view of believers, a theological line.

Would you lead a crowd of people into a killing field because you yourself were exempt and would be paid? The crowd is future generations. Your pay is cheaper electricity, enough that you can afford a few nights out per month. Some perspective, please?

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:06:37pm

re: #12 lostlakehiker

I wonder about her. She was pretty and bright, but then she got to playing with drugs and losing more weight than was good for her. It would be a pity if she were to lose her looks and her wits. She made the world a bit more fun.

I liked it when McCain said something dismissive about her (it was a swipe at Obama, he just used her as an example), only to learn that the Hiltons are, surprise, big Republican donors.

Paris announced herself ready to run.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:07:34pm

re: #18 Phocid

Suggesting that skepticism about catastrophic manmade climate change is on a par with creationism is basically dishonest and shows ignorance of the fundamentals of the scientific method. Science is not a religion and challenging any particular viewpoint or theory is not a heresy.

Ohh do come out and play...

Exactly what is your "challenge" to the accepted science?

Where is your data?

What evidence do you have?

Most importantly, since it is well established that CO2 is a green house gas, that traps IR, that energy is conserved, and the sun keeps warming us at a faster rate than before, because more heat is then trapped, how is it possible that all of those teratons of CO2 we have added to the atmosphere are doing nothing?

HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:08:35pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

I liked it when McCain said something dismissive about her (it was a swipe at Obama, he just used her as an example), only to learn that the Hiltons are, surprise, big Republican donors.

Paris announced herself ready to run.

The video she had on funny or die was quite funny and Paris usually annoys the crap out of me like most products of reality TV.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:12:20pm

re: #20 freetoken

Thing is, even for those with the best of intentions on being responsible to future generations by trying to conserve both whatever good things modern civilization has brought as well as the pre-existing, natural, environment in a human-friendly state (i.e., the Holocene climate), must realize how big of a battle reaching that goal will be.

The technology really does exist to do this. We do not have to forego our technological civilization to avert the worst of AGW. Nuclear, wind and solar along with smart grids and better batteries really do exist. It would create many millions of jobs to deploy them and we would make money in doing so.

There are so many imminent (within this century) issues that need to be addressed that anything less than thoughtful leaders and a fully informed citizenry will be a formula for some very hard times ahead.

There is the major rub.

This cartoon says it pretty well.

Youtube Video

Dancing along the light of day Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:12:37pm

I breathe, therefore I am!
Have at my Co2!
Recycle away!
The earth is a closed system.
It comes in, goes out, and returns!
VOILA!

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:14:11pm

Did I scare flaccid away?

Max Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:15:01pm

Jim DeMint plans to introduce legislation to strip NPR of its meager federal funding.

You can hear the wingnut blogs breaking out their bullhorns and pompoms.

Dancing along the light of day Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:15:25pm

re: #16 Floral Giraffe

Goodnight all.
Sleep well, Reginald & others.

Reginald Perrin Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:15:30pm

Charles, your serial stalker trolls became the subject of a discussion downstairs. Would you prefer that we take a continuation of the conversation to a Page, or even another venue? It's not always advisable to feed the trolls if you aren't using bait. Sometimes it pisses them off even more when they are ignored, they have an insatiable need for attention.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:17:18pm

re: #30 HappyWarrior

The video she had on funny or die was quite funny and Paris usually annoys the crap out of me like most products of reality TV.

My problem is that for several years I could not tell her apart from Nicole Richie unless they were standing side by side in the photograph.

Max Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:17:45pm

re: #18 Phocid

Suggesting that skepticism about catastrophic manmade climate change is on a par with creationism is basically dishonest and shows ignorance of the fundamentals of the scientific method

I'm quite the fundie when it comes to the scientific method.

HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:18:49pm

re: #34 Max D. Reinhardt

Jim DeMint plans to introduce legislation to strip NPR of its meager federal funding.

You can hear the wingnut blogs breaking out their bullhorns and pompoms.

Does DeMint do anything other than be a right wing troll in the Senate? Seriously this is what hsi concern is right now, stripping funding from NPR? It's too bad that hte Dem candidate runnign against him is absymmal. He's a sorry excuse for a US senator.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:19:52pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

My problem is that for several years I could not tell her apart from Nicole Richie unless they were standing side by side in the photograph.

And don't tell me that Nicole is the black one. Everyone tells me that. It didn't help.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:20:22pm

re: #39 HappyWarrior

Does DeMint do anything other than be a right wing troll in the Senate? Seriously this is what hsi concern is right now, stripping funding from NPR? It's too bad that hte Dem candidate runnign against him is absymmal. He's a sorry excuse for a US senator.

Someone said earlier that he also said something about the Schiavo case. What happened there?

HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:20:55pm

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

And don't tell me that Nicole is the black one. Everyone tells me that. It didn't help.

Heh, I kinda know what you mean when I first saw the preveiws for the SImple Life or whatever their show was I Thought they were sisters or something.

Max Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:20:57pm

re: #39 HappyWarrior

He's a sorry excuse for a US senator.

But that's not saying much these days.

freetoken Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:21:35pm

On topic, and probably worthy of a Page but I'm shot...

Today NOAA released their annual " Arctic Report Card":

[Link: www.arctic.noaa.gov...]

They even made a video:

Youtube Video

HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:21:45pm

re: #43 Max D. Reinhardt

But that's not saying much these days.

True be that :), I do think he's the worst of the worst since he's nothing more than a pathetic right wing shill.

Lidane Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:22:51pm

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

Someone said earlier that he also said something about the Schiavo case. What happened there?

DeMint was big on supporting the federal effort to overturn the Florida court decisions regarding the Schiavo case. That's all I remember offhand.

HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:22:57pm

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

Someone said earlier that he also said something about the Schiavo case. What happened there?

Gosh I dunno, but Demint who has been kingmaking all these crazy candidates we see is why I don't blieve them when they say we're for small government since Demint is as big government as they come on people's personal livss. And his tax proposal is insanely regressive.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:23:33pm

re: #38 Max D. Reinhardt

I'm quite the fundie when it comes to the scientific method.

So am I.

I think we scared him off.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:23:36pm

re: #42 HappyWarrior

Heh, I kinda know what you mean when I first saw the preveiws for the SImple Life or whatever their show was I Thought they were sisters or something.

I think it's just that they're both very skinny, petite girls, and they dressed so similarly back then, and wore their hair the same way...

And why a sane thirty-something woman should care about being able to distinguish them, I don't know.

Max Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:23:46pm

re: #47 HappyWarrior

What is his tax proposal?

HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:27:18pm

re: #50 Max D. Reinhardt

What is his tax proposal?

He favors an incredibly high sales tax to replace the income tax. Such a proposal would really hurt middle and lower class families. His social positions are bad enough for me but that tax position is absoultely inane.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:28:25pm

So, Sharron Angle is telling people she was the first Asian elected to the Nevada state assembly? I missed that in the ruckus about her defense of the ad.

Max Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:28:37pm

re: #51 HappyWarrior

He favors an incredibly high sales tax to replace the income tax. Such a proposal would really hurt middle and lower class families. His social positions are bad enough for me but that tax position is absoultely inane.

FairTax?

deranged cat Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:30:19pm

“They’re trying to use global warming against the people,” Ms. Deaton said. “It takes away our liberty.”
“Being a strong Christian,” she added, “I cannot help but believe the Lord placed a lot of minerals in our country and it’s not there to destroy us.”

how does it take away your liberty? what minerals are here to destroy us? what are you talking about? MAKE SENSE!

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:31:12pm

re: #34 Max D. Reinhardt

Jim DeMint plans to introduce legislation to strip NPR of its meager federal funding.

You can hear the wingnut blogs breaking out their bullhorns and pompoms.

Of course. It is all part of a well planned outrageous outrage right before elections to present Dems as liberal elitists.

HappyWarrior Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:31:34pm

re: #53 Max D. Reinhardt

FairTax?

Yeah, that's what he calls it. Honestly, given the choice between that and non income tax, I'd rather be like Delaware and have no sales tax and keep the income tax levels the same.

Max Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:32:50pm

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

So, Sharron Angle is telling people she was the first Asian elected to the Nevada state assembly? I missed that in the ruckus about her defense of the ad.

You know, last week in the Reid-Angle debate thread, I said that if I lived in Nevada I'd say home and withhold my vote.

What the fuck was I thinking?

That would be tacitly giving the vote to this sleazy, dishonest, anti-science, Bircher bitch. Never mind. I would swallow my little Republican pride, put on my hazmat suit, and haul my ass to the voting booth to pull the lever for Harry Reid.

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:33:37pm

re: #57 Max D. Reinhardt

You know, last week in the Reid-Angle debate thread, I said that if I lived in Nevada I'd say home and withhold my vote.

What the fuck was I thinking?

That would be tacitly giving the vote to this sleazy, dishonest, anti-science, Bircher bitch. Never mind. I would swallow my little Republican pride, put on my hazmat suit, and haul my ass to the voting booth to pull the lever for Harry Reid.

God bless, sir. I'm hoping there are more like you out there. Not because I'm a big Reid fan, either.

deranged cat Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:34:24pm

re: #57 Max D. Reinhardt

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd vote for reid but be grumbling too. he sounded pretty pathetic in the debate last week, but angle was just crazy nutsos/dumb/reading talking points off her hand

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:34:35pm

re: #54 deranged cat

how does it take away your liberty? what minerals are here to destroy us? what are you talking about? MAKE SENSE!

They don't make sense that is sort of the point.

They are morons who have been brainwashed by well paid propagandists.

Not a single one of them could describe the scientific method, reason their way through high-school mathematics or follow a train of logic and deduction on the basis of facts if there was a gun to their heads - which in a sense is the actual situation.

Our civilization and your kids and grandkids will be destroyed by worthless imbeciles and the callous, short sighted fools who deceived them.

It pisses me off more than anything. We are all being murdered by twits.

jamesfirecat Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:36:04pm

re: #18 Phocid

Suggesting that skepticism about catastrophic manmade climate change is on a par with creationism is basically dishonest and shows ignorance of the fundamentals of the scientific method. Science is not a religion and challenging any particular viewpoint or theory is not a heresy.

But challenging a valid scientific theory without backup proof of your own is idiocy.

So do you have any reasons you don't believe in AGW and better yet any proof for them?

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:36:31pm

re: #57 Max D. Reinhardt

You know, last week in the Reid-Angle debate thread, I said that if I lived in Nevada I'd say home and withhold my vote.

What the fuck was I thinking?

That would be tacitly giving the vote to this sleazy, dishonest, anti-science, Bircher bitch. Never mind. I would swallow my little Republican pride, put on my hazmat suit, and haul my ass to the voting booth to pull the lever for Harry Reid.

Exactly. It is not that I am a fan of the Dems. They are weak, disorganized, too interested in their petty fiefdoms to come together for the common good, and riddled with gutless and useless career politicians like Reid.

However, compared to the insane and frankly evil and anti-American baggers, they are saints - each and every one.

Max Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:40:18pm

Does anyone in Nevada actually like Harry Reid? Is there one activist in that state that is a proud devoted follower of his that agrees with all of his decisions and his agenda?

Because from what I've seen, he's universally reviled.

Gus Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:45:35pm

This! Is funny.

Image: 101020_cartoon_600.jpg

Gus Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:52:43pm

Off to watch some Hitchcock. Later.

William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 21, 2010 9:56:48pm

Good night, all.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Thu, Oct 21, 2010 10:07:17pm

Going to sign off myself.

lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 21, 2010 10:16:05pm

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

They don't make sense that is sort of the point.

They are morons who have been brainwashed by well paid propagandists.

Not a single one of them could describe the scientific method, reason their way through high-school mathematics or follow a train of logic and deduction on the basis of facts if there was a gun to their heads - which in a sense is the actual situation.

Our civilization and your kids and grandkids will be destroyed by worthless imbeciles and the callous, short sighted fools who deceived them.

It pisses me off more than anything. We are all being murdered by twits.

Wind energy production is growing by leaps and bounds. The technology is getting way cool. They're looking into having radar that tracks incoming gusts and adjusts the blade so that it doesn't get buffeted too hard. Near Boulder. Big R&D afoot

We're not quite there on solar, but we're not too far away. Our technological civilization is powerful and it has a survival instinct. We'll rise to the occasion.

Solzhenitsyn wrote on a related topic, dismissing the "oil crisis". He basically said that the West would surmount the loss of that source of energy without even a big hiccup.

watching you tiny alien kittens are Thu, Oct 21, 2010 10:17:06pm

The deniers have a small (well actually very large) problem.

[Link: www.arctic.noaa.gov...]

The latest (4th) report card on the artic is out and the findings are not good.

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Oct 21, 2010 10:20:57pm

re: #18 Phocid

Suggesting that skepticism about catastrophic manmade climate change is on a par with creationism is basically dishonest and shows ignorance of the fundamentals of the scientific method. Science is not a religion and challenging any particular viewpoint or theory is not a heresy.

You guys never stick around, because you have no facts. Because you have no data, because you have no understanding of the science

Go back to free republic and wallow with the pigs

SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 21, 2010 10:28:23pm

Late-night test writing sucks.

Lidane Thu, Oct 21, 2010 10:37:23pm

Scrambling to finish a paper that's due tomorrow is not fun.

However, the groovy tools that Microsoft Word has that not only create proper APA citations, but generate an automatic bibliography as I work? Awesome. Saves so much time for me. I will see this through to the end. :D

Surabaya Stew Thu, Oct 21, 2010 10:45:30pm

It's been great lurking tonight; sweet dreams, Lizards!

watching you tiny alien kittens are Thu, Oct 21, 2010 10:45:36pm

re: #18 Phocid

Suggesting that skepticism about catastrophic manmade climate change is on a par with creationism is basically dishonest and shows ignorance of the fundamentals of the scientific method. Science is not a religion and challenging any particular viewpoint or theory is not a heresy.

Uhh...I think that all depends on your motive for questioning the predominant viewpoint. If you are disputing it because you have new and better evidence of an alternate theory then more power to you, that is how science works. If however you simply want to deny it because it doesn't jive with what you want to believe and have no evidence to back that up?

Well then your just denying reality, but don't feel too bad, there seems to be a lot of that going around lately amongst the dumb and/or ignorant.

[deleted] Thu, Oct 21, 2010 11:30:24pm

[deleted] Thu, Oct 21, 2010 11:41:36pm

[deleted] Thu, Oct 21, 2010 11:57:28pm

[deleted] Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:08:24am

[deleted] Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:10:49am

[deleted] Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:11:17am

ClaudeMonet Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:24:05am

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

And don't tell me that Nicole is the black one. Everyone tells me that. It didn't help.

Both are skinny, incredibly stupid, annoying, and getting attention because of their last names and not because of any personal accomplishments. With all the resources of their families, they've done--nothing.

I find them both non-sexy and quite unattractive.

ClaudeMonet Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:28:14am

re: #78 Hollowpoint

No "consensus" by a political organization just as the IPCC can be regarded as scientific until every aspect of the study can be reproduced and verifed by independant parties. We're far from that point.

"verifed by independant parties"--WTF is that? If you want to be taken seriously, try checking your spelling before posting. That's what the "check spelling" button is for.

[deleted] Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:29:06am

[deleted] Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:32:24am

Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:33:09am

It is no catastropy if you misspel ocassionaly

ClaudeMonet Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:39:11am

re: #84 Hollowpoint

OH NO! I made a typo! Spelling "Independant" as "Independent" competely invalidates my time spend on Earth!

Get a life.

I have a life. I'm not sure if you do, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

What you don't have is twofold--one, a clue; and two, the ability to either spell or use a spell checker.

Seriously, BW, if you want to be taken seriously, try some proper spelling and grammar.

[deleted] Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:48:43am

Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Oct 22, 2010 12:54:52am

HP,

reports of your martyrdom are premature.

I came to this site when it was a lot more conservative, mostly because I enjoyed a lively discussion that did not turn into a shouting or insult match.

As for AGW, yes, there are jobs at stake here, but there are more than jobs at stake, there are serious consequences at stake as well, too.

i do not think that the will come in the form of a sudden Armageddon, but I believe we are seeing the signs of creeping change around us and blithely ignoring it because there are are well-funded vested interests convincing us to ignore it on ideological grounds.

Usually refered to as anyways Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:05:07am

re: #77 Hollowpoint

You expect to be able to go into peoples homes and shit on their floor?

Idjit...

freetoken Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:47:27am

re: #83 Hollowpoint

Sigh.... every one of your assertions about AGW is based on ignorance.

Every one of them.

For instance, you rely on innumeracy to make it seem as if the amount of CO2 that humans have added to the atmosphere is somehow unimportant. Rather than simply report that humans have increased the atmospheric CO2 by about 40% of what was in the atmosphere pre-industrial era you are trying the John Coleman approach of trying to convince people that the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is just too small to matter, just because you present CO2 concentration on a scale that gives you a small number. You seem to think by putting up a number like ".01%" that somehow proves your point.

That you jump on the MWP is a classic too... as if you think that somehow the roughly .5C temperature rise during those few centuries that appears to have been mainly in the Northern hemisphere somehow magically makes AGW a non-issue only shows that you really are just spouting the science-denier talking points. Same with the LIA... You're acting as if somehow you and your kind have suddenly discovered some dark secrets that climatologists are keeping from the world, secrets that undo legitimate concerns about AGW.

The truth is the opposite of what you proclaim. If anything, the MWP and the LIA show how small temperature changes, around .5C, do indeed affect human life. And in both of those cases we see that regional differences in effects are larger than what the global average temperatures might at first glance seem to imply, to the casual observer.

Your statement that "And yet, periods that were colder had higher levels of CO2 than now" also shows that you either (1) don't know that about which you are writing, or (2) you are intentionally lying. The only times when Earth temps were cooler than now but CO2 concentration was higher was many millions of years ago, when the distribution of continents on the surface was significantly different. You have to go back almost 450 million years to find a time that was as cold as our glacial periods and when CO2 was very high, long enough ago that the changes in our star's output due to age become significant.

You won't like this... and you'll play the martyr willingly about this... but not everyone is as ignorant as you. If you really had the amount of moral character that you pretend to have then you'd be more humble and go back and learn what science really says about these matters.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:51:26am

re: #77 Hollowpoint

You know you've managed to hit every stalker meme in the book with that one. You will be banned because you were before and are being an ass, not because you wrote something that deviates from "what is accepted" on AGW.

What you wrote about that is a bunch of BS, but I'll deal with that in my next post.

Of course it was a bit cowardly of you to wait until I signed off to spam this thread. You cowards are always whining to debate me... Silly of you.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 1:52:07am

re: #90 freetoken

Wow Free you beat me to it!

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:07:30am

re: #83 Hollowpoint

And you have managed to hit almost every standard moron talking point from WUWT and Rush. I am impressed. It's been a while since I've had to openly debunk so much stupidity.

And yet, periods that were colder had higher levels of CO2 than now.

Do you have anything to back that up with? What periods are you referring to. Mechanism is all important here. You will find that those were all the results of orbital variations and that most of the cold was limited to certain regions. Such orbital variations, called Milankovitch cycles are the result of, precession of the Earth's axis, and other wobbles that come from both the many body orbital problem and the fact that the Earth is not a uniform sphere.

They are well calculated.

It is true that there were some period where large amounts of volcanic activity from the younger and more active Earth, spilled out huge amounts of excess CO2 during an ice age. This is clearly not what is happening now, and to even bring it up on your part is a sign of willful ignorance and stupidity.

Moreover, what was the rate of change of temperature over those periods and how long did they last? Those cycles last and take many thousands of years. We have seen much more dramatic warming than in any of those cycles in a mere century. That is one of the biggest clues we are doing it.

CO2 is a trace gas in the atmosphere. Poison is in the dose- until the AGW "feedback" mechanisms are better demonstrated, it's far from "settled science" that increasing the C02 concentration .01% will lead to catastrophy.

This is laughable. A trace amount of cyanide will kill you! Did you know that? A tiny push away from equilibrium can cause a major shift. In this case, the largest feed backs are very well understood.

They are also simple to understand.

They are:

More CO2, even in small amount leads to evaporating substantially more water from the oceans. Water vapor is a powerful GHG in its own right. This is a powerful feed back that is well understood, vapor pressure goes up with heat! well observed and happening now.

As you melt more ice, you decrease reflectivity and trap more heat. That is well observed, relatively easy to calculate, well observed and happening now. That is quite settled.

As you saturate the oceans with CO2, it can absorb less and more goes into the atmosphere. Again, well understood, observed and happening now.

Then there is the methane feedback. As you warm the bogs, you allow bacteria to digest plant matter and release methane. Methane is also a very powerful GHG. This is a huge feed back. It is also well understood, well observed and happening now.

This is the settled part of the science.

I will continue your debunking in the next post.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:20:05am

re: #83 Hollowpoint

Look- skeptics like myself aren't "deniers" when it comes to the suggestion that C02 is a greenhouse gas. It is.

You don't know enough to call yourself a skeptic. You are not the equal of a scientist and you are in fact an ignorant moron who is repeating the brainwashed talking points you have heard from Fox and other propagandists. Don't kid yourself. You certainly aren't fooling anyone here.

However, the evidence that man-made C02 (a fraction of naturally occurring CO2) is a significant factor in changing the Earth's climate is severely lacking. Much of what has been presented as "science", isn't.

This is a repeat of your last debunked point. It most certainly is science.

Just to save time, all of this is covered here, with actual data and explanations of the mechanisms, in this full freshman level course from UCSD.

[Link: earthguide.ucsd.edu...]

You can, if you ever decide to read science, follow all the references as well.

Trillions of dollars and millions of jobs are on the line.

A lot more than that is on the line when we lose our coastal cities, our agriculture fails and we have millions of Americans without fresh water inland. Idiot.

If the AGW advocates are right, I want it to be irrefuatable,

It is. Look at the evidence for once.

and we're nowhere close to that point yet.

We are. Look at the evidence for once.

If they're wrong (and they might be),

We are not wrong. Look at the evidence for once.

...because money and prestige corrupted the scientific process.

OIl companies and fossil fuel companies have spent billions globally trying to spread misinformation and prevent action. That is where the money is. To claim that scientist who really don't make all that much are doing this for cash is ludicrous and marks you as delusional. But then again teabags are ludicrous, stupid and delusional.

The field of climate science has become a politically-driven mess.

It was made so by fossil fuel interests and their pet politicians - and idiots like you who believe their propaganda.

It's time to slow down, take the politics out of the process,

The first major reports that AGW could be a real issue in the US were sent by the National Academy to President Johnson. We've been going pretty slowly for the past 55 years, I assure you.

and conduct real science

We have.

in accordance with the currently neglected scientific method.

Asshole. And what exactly was forgotten or neglected? And by what right do you dare claim it wasn't? Part of what really astounds me about this, is that some out of work truck driver, can read some crap on a propaganda site, and he suddenly feels he is the equal of a scientist, and that his unfounded bluster somehow is the equivalent of actual knowledge.

Bring some data and evidence to back up your wild and ridiculous claims next time.

Idiot.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:21:35am

Also, Charles when you do eventually ban this stalker troll, I ask that you leave the debunking posts up. People should see what is wrong with those "arguments" and wingnut talking points.

Varek Raith Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:23:29am

re: #94 LudwigVanQuixote

SCIENCE TYRANT!
;)

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:26:12am

re: #96 Varek Raith

SCIENCE TYRANT!
;)

Yes! You know, you're right! This troll is reminiscent of bagua, but I can't picture him using a sock named hollowpoint. Though, he was always pissy when people mocked or abbreviated his nics.

I love being the Science Tyrant though!

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:35:38am

re: #90 freetoken

And excellent post on your part!

freetoken Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:36:47am

re: #95 LudwigVanQuixote

"Hollowpoint" is playing the martyr. By putting in a post that is of a normally deleted type (claims of persecution in a pre-flounce voice), he then, hoping to be banned for it, can claim he was banned for his AGW-science denial.

100

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:36:50am

re: #96 Varek Raith

Actually, when I re-read his posts, HP does have that same slimy feel as Douchebagua.

101

freetoken Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:40:05am

re: #98 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks.

Just remember - old age and serendipity will beat youth and IQ, every time...

102

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:40:32am

re: #99 freetoken

"Hollowpoint" is playing the martyr. By putting in a post that is of a normally deleted type (claims of persecution in a pre-flounce voice), he then, hoping to be banned for it, can claim he was banned for his AGW-science denial.

Of course he is. That is the other reason this stinks of Bagua. I could be wrong about which one it is, and it really doesn't matter. What matters is that of course he is just another of the stalker scumbags and that his moronic AGW denier talking points got debunked (by both of us, you wrote an excellent post) when he showed up. It is good to have the open ignorance of the wingnuts in one place where it can be neatly shown to be utterly false.

That way someone else coming here who doesn't know, or is confused can learn why that sort of denier propaganda is just lies.

103

Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:44:24am

People who understand this science are elitist.

People who deny it are just good, hard-working average citizens.

Remember that dichotomy and how it will play out in the upcoming elections....

104

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 2:48:42am

re: #103 ralphieboy

People who understand this science are elitist.

People who deny it are just good, hard-working average citizens.

Remember that dichotomy and how it will play out in the upcoming elections...

Well said.

I am always astonished how the GOP, a party of plutocrats, manages to paint liberals as the elite.

But science has no political leaning. Data has no party. Equations are completely uncaring of how anyone feels about them.

Part of what completely cheese me off is that these so called average, good, hardworking Americans are ignorant morons whose votes against the science will hurt everyone and, if they get their way for long enough, causing nothing to be done, will cause suffering on a scale that makes the Second World War into a footnote.

105

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:04:33am

The economic arguments of the deniers are very well summed up in this cartoon.

Youtube Video

106

Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:21:41am

re: #104 LudwigVanQuixote

Al Gore made a mistake when he though that he could retire from politics and embrace the cause of AGW in a non-partisan manner.

It raised a lot of partisan hackles, even among those were not already influenced by donations from energy companies and set the tone: AGW=liberal elisitst, AGW denier=level-headed, honest, hard working Joe.

107

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:31:50am

re: #106 ralphieboy

Al Gore made a mistake when he though that he could retire from politics and embrace the cause of AGW in a non-partisan manner.

It raised a lot of partisan hackles, even among those were not already influenced by donations from energy companies and set the tone: AGW=liberal elisitst, AGW denier=level-headed, honest, hard working Joe.

Yeah Gore might have done more harm than good in providing a target for a smear. However, I wouldn't really put the blame on him. After all, it took billions from fossil fuel interests and the 24/7 blaring of Fox and other well paid propagandists to get the situation where it is.

108

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:32:33am

Hey Jimmah!

109

Ziggy Standard Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:33:47am

re: #83 Hollowpoint

However, the evidence that man-made C02 (a fraction of naturally occurring CO2) is a significant factor in changing the Earth's climate is severely lacking. Much of what has been presented as "science", isn't.

Yes, the steady and massive increase in C02 output from man made processes since the onset of the industrial revolution, that correlates so well with the increasing levels of C02 in the atmosphere over the same time period is clearly a coincidence, with no bearing on climate whatsoever.

The extra C02 that is driving climate change must be coming from the plants. They're fucking with us, and the stoopid liberals are all to eager to eat their crap!

Youtube Video

110

Ziggy Standard Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:39:37am

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey Jimmah!

Hi Ludwig! Good to see you - I'm afraid I can't hang around this morning - I have an appointment shortly. You might see myself and ice here over the weekend though (hopefully!).

Till then...

Youtube Video

111

Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Oct 22, 2010 3:49:44am

re: #107 LudwigVanQuixote

He just made a mistake by allowing himself to be turned into a lighnting rod for all the denialist energies to concentrate on.

112

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Oct 22, 2010 4:57:31am

re: #111 ralphieboy

He just made a mistake by allowing himself to be turned into a lighnting rod for all the denialist energies to concentrate on.

Except of course, he was the only major politician with the courage to actually speak up about it.

I think in the balance, he still did the right thing. He is perhaps the last Dem with actual balls.

As it is now, I think that so many of the teabags are faced with the awful fact that admitting they were fooled and lied to, that they were completely snookered, is just something they can not face. So, they cling to AGW denial with ever more fervent urgency, even as it becomes obvious from the heat waves in Pakistan to the collapse of the Russian harvest and the insane monsoons, to even the Russian, Indian and Chinese governments that this is for real.

113

Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Oct 22, 2010 7:22:40am

re: #112 LudwigVanQuixote

Thzey just cannot bring themselves to support anything associated with Al Gore, even it were the concept of rescuing their children from a burning barn...

114

mkelly Fri, Oct 22, 2010 7:40:31am

Just wanted you to know I went back and dug out my old thermo book and the second law equation I wrote down was as I remember. Good to chat with you.

115

ihateronpaul Fri, Oct 22, 2010 7:45:20am

well no shit ahhahahah

116

Varek Raith Fri, Oct 22, 2010 8:52:23am

re: #114 mkelly

Lolwhut.

117

MKelly Fri, Oct 22, 2010 9:50:49am

re: #116 Varek Raith

Lolwhut.

Sorry I donot know what lolwhut is.

I missed inserting that what I posted was a reply to LVQ. But he will remember. Again it is good to chat with you.

118

djcelts Fri, Oct 22, 2010 9:52:08am

“Being a strong Christian,” she added, “I cannot help but believe the Lord placed a lot of minerals in our country and it’s not there to destroy us

maybe the Devil put them there to test us.......

119

lostlakehiker Fri, Oct 22, 2010 10:40:54am

re: #112 LudwigVanQuixote

Except of course, he was the only major politician with the courage to actually speak up about it.

I think in the balance, he still did the right thing. He is perhaps the last Dem with actual balls.

As it is now, I think that so many of the teabags are faced with the awful fact that admitting they were fooled and lied to, that they were completely snookered, is just something they can not face. So, they cling to AGW denial with ever more fervent urgency, even as it becomes obvious from the heat waves in Pakistan to the collapse of the Russian harvest and the insane monsoons, to even the Russian, Indian and Chinese governments that this is for real.

This sort of thing carries with it the seeds of a solution. Our problem has been "tragedy of the commons". Everybody's been thinking, let the other guy reduce his CO2 emissions. Meanwhile, I'll just burn coal and have electricity and electricity is good for my economy.

But now, things are getting to the point that if I'm Russia, or China, or India, or USA, the cost TO ME of my own CO2 emissions, which mostly hurt others, is STILL too great.

We can get out of this bind we're in, at a cost that will be a footnote compared to the cost of WW2. When we were all on the same side, we all faced a common enemy, and we did it despite the problem that always devils alliances, the problem that France may suspect that England is resolved to fight to the very last Frenchman.

We don't have to be saints, and sacrifice our own interests for the good of humanity. That doesn't seem to be the default behavior of our species; saints are scarce.

But things are serious enough, and the evidence is clear enough, that we need only have the wits and resolve to defend our own lives and our own interests, and it will all work out to the common good.

Down with NIMBY. Build the NV nuclear waste repository. License transmission lines across protected federal land. [Saving the desert spotted sand fly will not count for much if we lose the planet, desert, fly, and all. ]

Build offshore wind farms. [Saving the view from the coast won't count for much if the coast is six feet under.]

Build solar installations that cover a tenth of Arizona. [Saving a sun-blasted military base will be moot if half of Kansas becomes sun-blasted desert, perfectly suited to base use and unfit for any other use.]

120

WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Fri, Oct 22, 2010 11:29:16am

Really? A guy named himself Hollowpoint?

God damn people are dumb, dumb as two short planks

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