According to an interesting new Gallup poll, 70% of Americans say religion is losing its influence on American life.
Note that this doesn’t necessarily mean religion is losing its influence on America, just that 70% of Americans think it is.
And they won’t all be atheists either. A significant part of that 70% will be fundamentalists who are convinced they’re being persecuted.
1 |
brookly red Thu, Dec 30, 2010 12:52:05pm |
/well on the bright side that is twice the congressional approval rating…
| 2 |
Eclectic Infidel Thu, Dec 30, 2010 12:52:31pm |
70%? Really?!? Seems rather high. Ok, ok. I’ll read the article now. Just, wow..
| 3 |
brookly red Thu, Dec 30, 2010 12:55:01pm |
re: #2 eclectic infidel
70%? Really?!? Seems rather high. Ok, ok. I’ll read the article now. Just, wow..
Well it’s like asking if the country is heading in the right direction…
| 4 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Dec 30, 2010 12:56:30pm |
Note that this doesn’t necessarily mean religion IS losing its influence on America, just that 70% of Americans THINK it is.
And they won’t all be atheists either. A significant part of that 70% will be fundamentalists who are convinced they’re being persecuted.
| 6 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 30, 2010 12:56:49pm |
Since the next question reveals that, “the influence of religion in their own lives have been considerably more stable over the past six or seven decades than their views about the influence of religion on American society,” and, “Fifty-four percent of Americans in 2010 say religion is “very important” in their lives,” I guess most of ‘em think this is a bad thing.
| 7 |
brookly red Thu, Dec 30, 2010 12:57:37pm |
re: #4 Charles
Note that this doesn’t necessarily mean religion IS losing its influence on America, just that 70% of Americans THINK it is.
And they won’t all be atheists either. A significant part of that 70% will be fundamentalists who are convinced they’re being persecuted.
I would ask ” and do you think this to be a good thing or a bad thing?”
| 8 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 12:57:54pm |
re: #4 Charles
Note that this doesn’t necessarily mean religion IS losing its influence on America, just that 70% of Americans THINK it is.
And they won’t all be atheists either. A significant part of that 70% will be fundamentalists who are convinced they’re being persecuted.
Damn, I didn’t think about the “Help Help I’m being repressed!” factor.
| 9 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Dec 30, 2010 12:59:38pm |
re: #4 Charles
And they won’t all be atheists either. A significant part of that 70% will be fundamentalists who are convinced they’re being persecuted.
I’d be willing to bet they make up an overwhelming majority of that 70%.
| 10 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:00:31pm |
Freerepublic quote of the day (Hitchens - Kissinger gas chamber comment thread, link goes to google search):
God doesn’t put anyone in the furnace. It is an individual decision by those who reject the Father’s free gift of salvation through faith and trust in His Son Jesus Christ.
posted on December 30, 2010 1:03:15 PM PST by thethirddegree
| 11 |
Eclectic Infidel Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:00:37pm |
| 12 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:01:25pm |
re: #10 goddamnedfrank
Freerepublic quote of the day (Hitchens - Kissinger gas chamber comment thread, link goes to google search):
Holy shit.
| 13 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:01:33pm |
and I’m sure some of that 70% is all juiced up on eggnog and War On Christmas bullshit, waving their arms because they can’t plunk down fifty manger scenes in every town in America. Blah blah blah holiest of holidays
I still see Gretchen Carlson’s sneering ugly lips, a perfectly formed image my head, raking that poor mayor of whatever town over the coals for not being Jesusy enough, ugh. People who watch those sort of shows, I feel bad for them
| 14 |
What, me worry? Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:01:49pm |
re: #6 wrenchwench
Since the next question reveals that, “the influence of religion in their own lives have been considerably more stable over the past six or seven decades than their views about the influence of religion on American society,” and, “Fifty-four percent of Americans in 2010 say religion is “very important” in their lives,” I guess most of ‘em think this is a bad thing.
If you have an affinity to your religion and want your kids to also, I think it’s important that religion is timely and connected to people’s lives and families. Interesting activities, trips, bringing in current events as it relates to beliefs. That kind of thing. I don’t know if the decline has anything to do with this - religion being not interesting - or as Charles said, it’s just perception.
| 15 |
PhillyPretzel Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:02:09pm |
I guess I am not part of the 70%. I think religion does have influence in many ways.
| 16 |
jaunte Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:03:00pm |
The results may also be influenced by a greater freedom to admit that religion plays a smaller part in one’s life than was admissible in the past.
| 17 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:03:12pm |
re: #15 PhillyPretzel
Often times, not in a good way.
| 18 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:03:27pm |
| 20 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:03:48pm |
| 21 |
brookly red Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:05:27pm |
re: #15 PhillyPretzel
I guess I am not part of the 70%. I think religion does have influence in many ways.
well the point is obviously the majority thinks that religion is losing it’s influence… now if the majority is pleased or upset by that is another question.
| 22 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:07:03pm |
re: #18 Dark_Falcon
Reverse, please.
You want religion to have more influence or you want people to think it has more influence so they’ll quit whining about it?
| 23 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:07:58pm |
re: #19 PhillyPretzel
I believe that religion, or faith, can be a force for good in an individual’s life.
When applied to the body politic, I find the reverse to be true.
| 24 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:08:08pm |
re: #10 goddamnedfrank
Freerepublic quote of the day (Hitchens - Kissinger gas chamber comment thread, link goes to google search):
On most threads, if that comment is read with “the furnace” = Hell, I’d allow it as a theological point. But used in on a thread with that subject, it looks horrendous and speaks to very poor judgment at best and outright malice at worst.
| 26 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:08:11pm |
re: #14 marjoriemoon
If you have an affinity to your religion and want your kids to also, I think it’s important that religion is timely and connected to people’s lives and families. Interesting activities, trips, bringing in current events as it relates to beliefs. That kind of thing. I don’t know if the decline has anything to do with this - religion being not interesting - or as Charles said, it’s just perception.
I wanted to post the Atheist Song on my Facebook page, but my godparents have been posting religious stuff, and I was afraid they would be offended, so I emailed it to my siblings instead. (Godparents in the Catholic tradition are responsible, along with parents, for one’s religious upbringing.)
/the influence of religion in my life….
| 27 |
brookly red Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:09:52pm |
| 28 |
Varek Raith Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:10:03pm |
It is what it is.
Organized religion sure as hell isn’t helping.
| 29 |
PhillyPretzel Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:10:36pm |
re: #23 Slumbering Behemoth
That is how I feel too. For me religion is a personal thing. I prefer to keep it that way. Some folks get upset when I tell them I am Jewish. So I try to leave my religion out of my work life whenever possible.
| 30 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:10:45pm |
re: #28 Varek Raith
It is what it is.
Organized religion sure as hell isn’t helping.
Disorganized Religion is a hell of a lot more fun anyways.
| 31 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:10:46pm |
re: #22 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
You want religion to have more influence or you want people to think it has more influence so they’ll quit whining about it?
I’d rather it have more influence, but not be as mule-headed in its use.
| 32 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:10:51pm |
re: #26 wrenchwench
I can’t imagine why a religious person wouldn’t like that song, what with the atheists poking fun at themselves with it, but who the heck can predict how some folk would react?
| 33 |
Varek Raith Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:11:48pm |
re: #29 PhillyPretzel
That is how I feel too. For me religion is a personal thing. I prefer to keep it that way. Some folks get upset when I tell them I am Jewish. So I try to leave my religion out of my work life whenever possible.
As long as you’re not a Jedi, you’re ok in my book.
;)
| 35 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:12:19pm |
re: #31 Dark_Falcon
I’d rather it have more influence, but not be as mule-headed in its use.
Unfortunately, those two ideas seem to be mutually exclusive.
| 36 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:12:34pm |
re: #31 Dark_Falcon
given human nature that’s all but impossible.
| 37 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:13:12pm |
Private religion… good.
Public religion… bad.
Jesus said that. That’s good enough for me.
| 38 |
PhillyPretzel Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:13:27pm |
re: #33 Varek Raith
Thanks. I will admit I like Star Wars but I like the Honorverse much more.
| 39 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:13:37pm |
have some amazing occult art in the religion thread:
| 40 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:13:43pm |
re: #33 Varek Raith
As long as you’re not a Jedi, you’re ok in my book.
;)
For a Xenos loving heretic, you’re an OK guy sometimes.
| 41 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:14:03pm |
re: #31 Dark_Falcon
I’d rather it have more influence, but not be as mule-headed in its use.
Religion has as much influence in a individual’s life as they permit it to, and that is as it should be.
In American politics as a whole, it has far too much, and not for the greater good. In this area, I would like to see that influence greatly decreased.
| 42 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:14:19pm |
re: #30 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Disorganized Religion is a hell of a lot more fun anyways.
More disorganized the better! [Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
| 43 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:14:23pm |
re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Unfortunately, those two ideas seem to be mutually exclusive.
Maybe, but I have hope that Christian morality and justice can be separated from anti-gay feelings. I have tried to do this in my own life.
| 44 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:14:40pm |
re: #32 Slumbering Behemoth
I can’t imagine why a religious person wouldn’t like that song, what with the atheists poking fun at themselves with it, but who the heck can predict how some folk would react?
They’re just enjoying themselves too much, boldly being atheists like that.
Until I signed up on Facebook this spring, I hadn’t been in touch with my godparents since 1977, when my godmother gave me a little talk about how religion becomes more important to you when you get older. I was 19, and had been an atheist for years already, but I didn’t tell her that.
| 45 |
What, me worry? Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:14:42pm |
re: #26 wrenchwench
I wanted to post the Atheist Song on my Facebook page, but my godparents have been posting religious stuff, and I was afraid they would be offended, so I emailed it to my siblings instead. (Godparents in the Catholic tradition are responsible, along with parents, for one’s religious upbringing.)
/the influence of religion in my life…
hehe Well, you made a good decision not to insult the family :) Steve Martin’s a scream. I’m gonna have to share that with my beloved. Man, you people are everywhere!
Religion can be timely and interesting, but you have to find a place and people who suit you. That’s all very personal and should stay personal, IMO.
| 46 |
brookly red Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:15:41pm |
just wait till God comes and refudiates all you sinners. just wait!
| 47 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:16:31pm |
I’m a devout Agnostic. I think there is a God and that not one single person on Earth can claim to speak for him, and if they do, they’re deluded.
| 48 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:16:33pm |
re: #38 PhillyPretzel
Thanks. I will admit I like Star Wars but I like the Honorverse much more.
Albrecht Dectwhieler is a better villain than Palpatine was. Much better drawn and believable.
| 49 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:16:35pm |
re: #41 Slumbering Behemoth
Religion has as much influence in a individual’s life as they permit it to, and that is as it should be.
In American politics as a whole, it has far too much, and not for the greater good. In this area, I would like to see that influence greatly decreased.
yeah if it recedes though, it’ll probably be replaced with something worse, like even more strident tribal divisions
because that’s really what we’re talking about when we talk about fundamentalists, we’re not talking about religion at all, we’re talking about groups of people who hate the Other, and that won’t go away. it’s just being dressed up as religion, it could easily be dressed up as sports (EDL) or science (eugenics)
| 50 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:16:50pm |
Speaking of Jesus. I am reading the book “Lamb” by Christopher Moore.
Freaking fantastic. Hysterical. Irreverent without being blasphemous.
Review over.
| 51 |
Varek Raith Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:16:51pm |
re: #46 brookly red
just wait till God comes and refudiates all you sinners. just wait!
“Don’t bring me into this!
KTHXBAI”
-God.
| 52 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:17:05pm |
re: #44 wrenchwench
They’re just enjoying themselves too much, boldly being atheists like that.
Until I signed up on Facebook this spring, I hadn’t been in touch with my godparents since 1977, when my godmother gave me a little talk about how religion becomes more important to you when you get older. I was 19, and had been an atheist for years already, but I didn’t tell her that.
I must be some kind of weirdo. I find the older I get, the less important it is to me.
| 54 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:17:41pm |
re: #45 marjoriemoon
hehe Well, you made a good decision not to insult the family :) Steve Martin’s a scream. I’m gonna have to share that with my beloved. Man, you people are everywhere!
Religion can be timely and interesting, but you have to find a place and people who suit you.
My brother and his wife sent their two kids to atheist summer camp, to find a place and people to suit them.
That’s all very personal and should stay personal, IMO.
Agreed.
| 55 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:17:47pm |
re: #48 Dark_Falcon
Albrecht Dectwhieler is a better villain than Palpatine was. Much better drawn and believable.
Palpatine was a 2-bit hack who couldn’t even control a galactic segment for more than 20 years.
| 56 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:18:31pm |
re: #52 Slumbering Behemoth
I must be some kind of weirdo. I find the older I get, the less important it is to me.
I am apparently the same kind of weirdo. Don’t tell my godmother!
| 57 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:18:54pm |
re: #49 WindUpBird
Unfortunately, all too true.
| 58 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:20:48pm |
re: #44 wrenchwench
They’re just enjoying themselves too much, boldly being atheists like that.
Until I signed up on Facebook this spring, I hadn’t been in touch with my godparents since 1977, when my godmother gave me a little talk about how religion becomes more important to you when you get older. I was 19, and had been an atheist for years already, but I didn’t tell her that.
I do think that it’s true that as you get older, things you already find important take on greater meaning, for some people that’s religion
| 59 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:21:43pm |
re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Palpatine was a 2-bit hack who couldn’t even control a galactic segment for more than 20 years.
Padme Amidala couldn’t even have two babies. Sarah Palin had five.
/ runs away laughing
| 60 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:21:49pm |
re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I’m a devout Agnostic. I think there is a God and that not one single person on Earth can claim to speak for him, and if they do, they’re deluded.
| 61 |
lawhawk Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:22:16pm |
Gonna wade through the topline and other data from the full survey results.
Question 36 is the key question: At the present time, do you think religion as a whole is increasing its influence on American life or losing its
influence?
What’s interesting is that the figures are mostly in line with results with past results.
The major outliers on that question from the last 25 years are from the December 2001 survey, where 71% found religion was increasing in influence in American life - probably directly correlated with the 9/11 attacks. But since then, the percentage that thought religion was increasing in influence cracked 50% (and only at 50%) just once - in April 2005. Otherwise, the percentages found it split or losing influence. It’s been that way pretty for all the periods polled - going back to 1957 (and that was the last time before December 2001 that religion was found increasing its influence in a level anywhere as close to the post- 9/11 result.
| 62 |
brookly red Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:22:41pm |
now if you will excuse me, I must pay homage at the alter of the fruitless (and therefore holy) thin crust…
| 63 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:22:49pm |
re: #58 WindUpBird
I do think that it’s true that as you get older, things you already find important take on greater meaning, for some people that’s religion
Agreed, but I won’t even try to explain to my godmother that I think it can be something other than religion.
| 64 |
Varek Raith Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:22:56pm |
re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Palpatine was a 2-bit hack who couldn’t even control a galactic segment for more than 20 years.
JAR JAR BINKS BROUGHT ABOUT THE GALACTIC EMPIRE WITH HIS VOTE.
WTF, LUCAS?!
Lol.
| 65 |
PhillyPretzel Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:23:41pm |
re: #48 Dark_Falcon
He is a baddie and not many people like him but his name is spelled:
Albrecht Detweiler
I had to go through 39 chapters to get to an easy place to copy the son of a you know whats name.
| 66 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:23:46pm |
re: #64 Varek Raith
JAR JAR BINKS BROUGHT ABOUT THE GALACTIC EMPIRE WITH HIS VOTE.
WTF, LUCAS?!
Lol.
I just saw the Family Guy Jedi sendup, pretty goddamn funny
| 67 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:24:05pm |
re: #59 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Padme Amidala couldn’t even have two babies. Sarah Palin had five.
/ runs away laughing
Perhaps if the delivery droid didn’t have SPATULAS FOR HANDS!
| 68 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:24:43pm |
re: #67 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Perhaps if the delivery droid didn’t have SPATULAS FOR HANDS!
“Someone call for a flapjack?”
“GET OUT!”
| 69 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:25:15pm |
re: #67 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Perhaps if the delivery droid didn’t have SPATULAS FOR HANDS!
Edward Spatulahands, MD, FACS, OBGyn
| 70 |
PhillyPretzel Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:25:56pm |
re: #69 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
ROFL and thanks for making me laugh.
| 71 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:26:02pm |
re: #63 wrenchwench
Agreed, but I won’t even try to explain to my godmother that I think it can be something other than religion.
For some like my grandma, there isn’t anything other than religion. In other words, religion must always be the top priority, 24/7/365.
| 72 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:26:11pm |
re: #65 PhillyPretzel
He is a baddie and not many people like him but his name is spelled:
Albrecht DetweilerI had to go through 39 chapters to get to an easy place to copy the son of a you know whats name.
Thanks for the correction. The next book of Honorverse short stories comes out in February. Are you looking forward to it?
| 73 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:26:14pm |
re: #68 WindUpBird
“Someone call for a flapjack?”
“GET OUT!”
“She lost the will to live.”
“No, seriously, why did she die?”
“…”
“I hope you got a good lawyer droid handy.”
| 74 |
Political Atheist Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:26:34pm |
The trouble with this poll is it’s all about mere perception. Perception affected by the modern lame-stream media, and random personal events. The real motives of the answers are impenetrable. Perception more apt to shift about than our wild winds today.
Look at this from the methodology
Samples are weighted by gender, age, race, Hispanic ethnicity, education, region, adults in the household, cell phone-only status, cell phone-mostly status, and phone lines. Demographic weighting targets are based on the March 2009 Current Population Survey figures for the aged 18 and older non-institutionalized population living in U.S. telephone households. All reported margins of sampling error include the computed design effects for weighting and sample design.
What % of fundies would one expect in the above group? I do not see reason to assume a big % at all.
Seems more likely ordinary people influenced more by the last TV show they watched or whatever whim of the second they got the call. Right there you have your majority of respondents.
| 75 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:26:46pm |
re: #49 WindUpBird
yeah if it recedes though, it’ll probably be replaced with something worse, like even more strident tribal divisions
because that’s really what we’re talking about when we talk about fundamentalists, we’re not talking about religion at all, we’re talking about groups of people who hate the Other, and that won’t go away. it’s just being dressed up as religion, it could easily be dressed up as sports (EDL) or science (eugenics)
This one needed a rerun.
| 76 |
lawhawk Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:27:19pm |
re: #67 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And she lost the will to live? Really? Not to see that Aniken had some good left in him and see if she could get him to realize the folly of following Darth Sidious/Palpatine?
But the real reason that Palpatine had trouble running the Galactic Empire?
He had to deal with a whiny Darth Vader.
[Link: www.vidilife.com…]
| 77 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:28:14pm |
re: #74 Rightwingconspirator
You’re probably right.
| 78 |
Varek Raith Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:28:18pm |
re: #69 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Edward Spatulahands, MD, FACS, OBGyn
Dr. Ball M.D.
[Link: www.milkandcookies.com…]
| 79 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:28:32pm |
He’s five minutes of Eddie Izzard on religion.
Even mentions Scooby Doo here (I think)
| 80 |
PhillyPretzel Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:28:56pm |
re: #72 Dark_Falcon
I will take a peek at it. I have a rule with Mr Weber’s books. It has to have a CD-ROM in the book for me to buy it. Otherwise I read them online.
| 81 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:29:14pm |
| 82 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:29:43pm |
re: #76 lawhawk
And she lost the will to live? Really? Not to see that Aniken had some good left in him and see if she could get him to realize the folly of following Darth Sidious/Palpatine?
But the real reason that Palpatine had trouble running the Galactic Empire?
He had to deal with a whiny Darth Vader.
[Link: www.vidilife.com…]
And he kept sinking resouces into crappy super weapons rather than effective infantry training and support systems.
| 83 |
PhillyPretzel Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:30:29pm |
re: #74 Rightwingconspirator
That puts a wrinkle into it.
| 84 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:30:49pm |
re: #82 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And he kept sinking resouces into crappy super weapons rather than effective infantry training and support systems.
| 85 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:31:45pm |
re: #68 WindUpBird
“Someone call for a flapjack?”
“GET OUT!”
Do not trust the flipper robot, flipping is the answer, flipping will protect you from the terrible secret of space.
| 86 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:32:37pm |
re: #85 goddamnedfrank
Do not trust the flipper robot, flipping is the answer, flipping will protect you from the terrible secret of space.
PAK CHOOIE
| 87 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:34:23pm |
re: #85 goddamnedfrank
I think the funniest thing Lowtax ever did in his life was that ICQ prank where he was pretending his keyboard was broken, and had to use the speech recognition on his computer to converse with the prankee on ICQ. motherfucker kept getting mistranslated as MOTHER FRIEND, that always makes me laugh
| 88 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:34:41pm |
| 89 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:35:05pm |
re: #54 wrenchwench
My brother and his wife sent their two kids to atheist summer camp, to find a place and people to suit them.
Agreed.
Did the counselors get them up at dawn to curse Mithra?
| 91 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:37:24pm |
re: #82 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And he kept sinking resouces into crappy super weapons rather than effective infantry training and support systems.
You need troops to claim objectives and fast attack to get crumpin’ early, Palpatine spent all his points on HQ and heavy support slots.
| 92 |
calochortus Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:37:38pm |
re: #61 lawhawk
Gonna wade through the topline and other data from the full survey results.
Question 36 is the key question: At the present time, do you think religion as a whole is increasing its influence on American life or losing its
influence?What’s interesting is that the figures are mostly in line with results with past results.
The major outliers on that question from the last 25 years are from the December 2001 survey, where 71% found religion was increasing in influence in American life - probably directly correlated with the 9/11 attacks. But since then, the percentage that thought religion was increasing in influence cracked 50% (and only at 50%) just once - in April 2005. Otherwise, the percentages found it split or losing influence. It’s been that way pretty for all the periods polled - going back to 1957 (and that was the last time before December 2001 that religion was found increasing its influence in a level anywhere as close to the post- 9/11 result.
I believe “we’re going to hell in a handbasket-things were better in my youth” has been the general opinion of people from time immemorial.
There was a Daily Show segment a few months ago that featured comments of various conservative commentators about how much better things were ‘in the old days (when they were children)’ and then interviewing people about what things were like back then (hint: not as golden as one remembers)
| 93 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:37:54pm |
re: #82 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And he kept sinking resouces into crappy super weapons rather than effective infantry training and support systems.
You’d like Timothy Zhan’s Heir to the Empire books then. The Imperial leader, Grand Admiral Tharwn, deploys tricks but no super weapons and actually focuses on building up a competent military. He wins battles that Darth Vader would have needed 33% more force to win by such methods.
| 94 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:39:02pm |
re: #93 Dark_Falcon
You’d like Timothy Zhan’s Heir to the Empire books then. The Imperial leader, Grand Admiral Tharwn, deploys tricks but no super weapons and actually focuses on building up a competent military. He wins battles that Darth Vader would have needed 33% more force to win by such methods.
Yeah, read them.
| 95 |
Varek Raith Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:40:38pm |
re: #91 goddamnedfrank
You need troops to claim objectives and fast attack to get crumpin’ early, Palpatine spent all his points on HQ and heavy support slots.
SPAWN MORE OVERLORDS!
| 96 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:41:14pm |
re: #91 goddamnedfrank
You need troops to claim objectives and fast attack to get crumpin’ early, Palpatine spent all his points on HQ and heavy support slots.
In the 60s, Poul Anderson did The High Crusade, in which the UFO baddies the land in medieval England are very good at interstellar war, not to good at swordplay.
[Link: www.amazon.com…]
| 97 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:41:28pm |
re: #88 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Droids and conscripted labor are not covered by Union rules.
But shoddy union work might explain leaving that vulnerable exhaust port.
OMG, TEH GOV’MENT UNIONS RUINED THE EMPIRE!!1
/Stay on Target!
| 98 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:41:50pm |
re: #91 goddamnedfrank
You need troops to claim objectives and fast attack to get crumpin’ early, Palpatine spent all his points on HQ and heavy support slots.
You ever seen a grown man break down and cry because he forgot his uber-unit does not count as a scoring unit to claim an objective?
| 100 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:45:02pm |
re: #96 Decatur Deb
In the 60s, Poul Anderson did The High Crusade, in which the UFO baddies the land in medieval England are very good at interstellar war, not to good at swordplay.
[Link: www.amazon.com…]
There was another book whose name escapes me where the intergalactic rules of warfare had strict guidelines on what technology could be used when conquering primitive planets, so the aliens kidnapped a Roman legion to serve as their ground forces.
| 101 |
Varek Raith Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:46:02pm |
re: #100 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
There was another book whose name escapes me where the intergalactic rules of warfare had strict guidelines on what technology could be used when conquering primitive planets, so the aliens kidnapped a Roman legion to serve as their ground forces.
Meh.
Just stay out in the asteroid belt an chuck an asteroid or two at Earth.
:P
| 102 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:47:51pm |
re: #100 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
There was another book whose name escapes me where the intergalactic rules of warfare had strict guidelines on what technology could be used when conquering primitive planets, so the aliens kidnapped a Roman legion to serve as their ground forces.
Don’t know that theme. Another Anderson in that genre is “Three Hearts and Three Lions”, which includes discussion of the physics involved when a giant is turned to stone.
[Link: www.amazon.com…]
| 103 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:48:39pm |
re: #101 Varek Raith
Meh.
Just stay out in the asteroid belt an chuck an asteroid or two at Earth.
:P
They had no interest in conquering Earth, they wanted the Romans to fight off world.
Plus, rocks aren’t free.
Rocks are NOT “free”, citizen.
Firstly, you must manoeuvre the Emperor’s naval vessel within reach of the asteroid belt, almost assuredly sustaining damage to the Emperor’s ship’s paint from micrometeoroids, while expending the Emperor’s fuel.
Then the tech priests must inspect the rock in question to ascertain its worthyness to do the Emperor’s bidding. Should it pass muster, the Emperor’s Servitors must use the Emperor’s auto-scrappers and melta-cutters to prepare the potential ordinance for movement. Finally, the tech priests finished, the Emperor’s officers may begin manoeuvring the Emperor’s warship to abut the asteroid at the prepared face (expending yet more of the Emperor’s fuel), and then begin boosting the stone towards the offensive planet.
After a few days of expending a prodigious amount of the Emperor’s fuel to accelerate the asteroid into an orbit more fitting to the emperor’s desires, the Emperor’s ship may then return to the planet via superluminous warp travel and await the arrival of the stone, still weeks (or months) away.
After twiddling away the Emperor’s time and eating the Emperor’s food in the wasteful pursuit of making sure that the Emperor’s enemies do not launch a deflection mission, they may finally watch the ordinance impact on the planet (assuming the Emperor’s warship does not need to attempt any last-minute course correction upon the rock, using yet more of the Emperor’s fuel).
Given a typical (class Bravo-CVII) system, we have the following:
Two months, O&M, Titan class warship: 4.2 Million Imperials.
Two months, rations, crew of same: 0.2 MI
Two months, Tech Priest pastor: 1.7 MI
Two months, Servitor parish: 0.3 MI
Paint, Titan class warship: 0.9 MI
Dihydrogen peroxide fuel: 0.9 MI
Total: 9.8 MIContrasting with the following:
5 warheads, magna-melta: 2.5 MI
One day, O&M, Titan class warship: 0.3 MI
One day, rations, crew of same: 0.0 MI
Dihydrogen peroxide fuel: 0.1 MI
Total: 2.9 MIGiven the same amount with under one third of the cost, the Emperor will have saved a massive amount of His most sacred money and almost a full month of time, during which His warship may be bombarding an entirely different planet.
The Emperor, through this – His office of Imperial outlays – hereby orders you to attend one (1) week of therapeutic accountancy training/penance. Please report to Areicon IV, Imperial City, Administatum Building CXXI, Room 1456, where you are to sit in the BLUE chair.
For the Emperor,
Bursarius Tenathis,
Purser Level XI,
Imperial Office of Outlays.
| 104 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:50:21pm |
re: #103 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
They had no interest in conquering Earth, they wanted the Romans to fight off world.
Plus, rocks aren’t free.
So, just send in the Imperial Guard and never mind the losses? Nice Guy, the Emperor.
| 105 |
Varek Raith Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:50:26pm |
re: #103 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
They had no interest in conquering Earth, they wanted the Romans to fight off world.
Plus, rocks aren’t free.
Bureaucracies.
Feh!
| 106 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:51:45pm |
This was Tweeted a few minutes ago:
| 107 |
Kragar Thu, Dec 30, 2010 1:53:04pm |
re: #104 Dark_Falcon
So, just send in the Imperial Guard and never mind the losses? Nice Guy, the Emperor.
The Imperial Guard’s built around the fact they always can send in another wave.
| 108 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:00:39pm |
re: #107 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
The Imperial Guard’s built around the fact they always can send in another wave.
I know. Some of my gaming group are big Battlefleet Gothic fans.
| 109 |
Joe Max Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:01:28pm |
re: #26 wrenchwench
For some reason, Tom Lehrer’s song “Doin’ the Vatican Rag” is going through my head all of a sudden…
Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There, the guy who’s got religion’ll
Tell you if your sin’s original.
If it is, try playing it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!
So get down upon your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!
| 110 |
wrenchwench Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:03:16pm |
| 113 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:05:00pm |
re: #109 Joe Max
Welcome. Hatched just in time for the Lizard tax deduction.
| 115 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:05:39pm |
| 117 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:06:48pm |
| 118 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:07:55pm |
re: #50 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Speaking of Jesus. I am reading the book “Lamb” by Christopher Moore.
Freaking fantastic. Hysterical. Irreverent without being blasphemous.
Review over.
I like the bit about how Biff has a giant crush on Mary, and fantasizes about marrying her if, you know, something tragic happened to Joseph.
| 119 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:08:55pm |
re: #118 SanFranciscoZionist
I like the bit about how Biff has a giant crush on Mary, and fantasizes about marrying her if, you know, something tragic happened to Joseph.
hey ,,, a carpenter ,, doing a roof job ,,, slippery roof tiles ,, ya never know!!
| 120 |
PhillyPretzel Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:09:48pm |
re: #112 Dark_Falcon
I checked out Baen’s website. Boy has it changed. I found the upcoming Honor anthology and skimmed the only story available. It is a pretty good story.
| 121 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:11:26pm |
| 122 |
Bubblehead II Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:11:33pm |
re: #100 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
There was another book whose name escapes me where the intergalactic rules of warfare had strict guidelines on what technology could be used when conquering primitive planets, so the aliens kidnapped a Roman legion to serve as their ground forces.
David Drake - Ranks of Bronze
| 123 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:11:58pm |
| 124 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:12:05pm |
re: #49 WindUpBird
yeah if it recedes though, it’ll probably be replaced with something worse, like even more strident tribal divisions
because that’s really what we’re talking about when we talk about fundamentalists, we’re not talking about religion at all, we’re talking about groups of people who hate the Other, and that won’t go away. it’s just being dressed up as religion, it could easily be dressed up as sports (EDL) or science (eugenics)
The lamest religion has at least this going for it, that it insists that its adherents must have no other superstition before it. The wide gamut of secular superstition is full of mechanisms to separate the gullible from their money and their honor.
The one true faith, whichever that one is, also inoculates its adherents against superstitious nonsense. Heaping scorn upon a faith because it advances some fanciful story or other is a losing game for society. Better that than, as the man says, nonsense on stilts, masquerading as science.
George Washington opined that, whatever the merits of philosophy as guidance for those of rare and refined disposition, it could never take the place of religion for the moral instruction of the populace at large. And that’s not him saying that for those of a philosophically inclined temper, philosophy is outright better than religion. Just that, in those few, it can provide a substitute that serves for purposes of building a citizen.
| 125 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:12:29pm |
| 126 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:13:24pm |
| 127 |
watching you tiny alien kittens are Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:13:34pm |
Well since “Unaffiliated” has been the fastest growing religious preference in the last two Pew research polls I would say that the survey is pretty much right. There are still very few people willing to call themselves atheist, less than 2% of the population. But close to 20% now say they are atheist, agnostic, or have no religious preferences whatsoever.
The Protestant Christian church still holds a large majority in this country but it is disappearing very quickly, once upon a time not being a protestant was as harmful to your job prospects as being Catholic or (gasp) Black was, perhaps more so. Now with more and more people openly “out” about not having a particular religion many others feel free to also declare their views openly.
At this rate it could be as little as a decade before the Protestant Church loses it’s majority (not likely but possible). Expect a gigantic death throe backlash first though…there is no way they are going out of power without a fight.
| 128 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:13:48pm |
| 129 |
lostlakehiker Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:15:55pm |
re: #74 Rightwingconspirator
The trouble with this poll is it’s all about mere perception. Perception affected by the modern lame-stream media, and random personal events. The real motives of the answers are impenetrable. Perception more apt to shift about than our wild winds today.
Look at this from the methodology
Samples are weighted by gender, age, race, Hispanic ethnicity, education, region, adults in the household, cell phone-only status, cell phone-mostly status, and phone lines. Demographic weighting targets are based on the March 2009 Current Population Survey figures for the aged 18 and older non-institutionalized population living in U.S. telephone households. All reported margins of sampling error include the computed design effects for weighting and sample design.What % of fundies would one expect in the above group? I do not see reason to assume a big % at all.
Seems more likely ordinary people influenced more by the last TV show they watched or whatever whim of the second they got the call. Right there you have your majority of respondents.
Weighting a sample helps to correct for accidental biases resulting from the fact that it can be easier to contact people who are more plugged in than those who aren’t. Failure to weight the sample caused the epic belly flop of Dewey beats Truman polling.
These guys are getting a better read on the situation than they would if they didn’t employ this professional-grade tool when they evaluated their raw data.
| 130 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:17:34pm |
re: #123 sattv4u2
I am reading the book
Show off!!
Actually… I am lying. I am listening to the book on CD in my car.
I don’t actually read pages and stuff.
| 131 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:17:46pm |
Mmm. Golan Sion Creek red.
| 132 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:18:02pm |
re: #130 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Actually… I am lying. I am listening to the book on CD in my car.
I don’t actually read pages and stuff.
street signs?
| 133 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:18:39pm |
Just a thought on one of the topics being discussed on this thread. Some of the European/ex-USSR far right do like Israel very much. Many - while being antisemitic. It’s not hard to understand. They see the state of Israel just like some on the far-far left do, it’s just unlike the far left the far right likes the fantasy picture of Israel in their head.
| 134 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:19:37pm |
re: #118 SanFranciscoZionist
I’ve laughed out loud several times.
John the Baptist: “Hey! You guys! Know how I’ve been telling you that the messiah was coming? Well, there he is! Right there! Up on the camel! Guy on the left!”
That struck me as hysterical.
| 135 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:20:17pm |
re: #132 sattv4u2
Shape… red octagon means stop.
| 136 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:20:54pm |
| 137 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:21:26pm |
re: #131 Alouette
Mmm. Golan Sion Creek red.
“To preserve the quality of the wine, this bottle should be stored on its side in a cool, dark place, like a Katyusha shelter.”
| 138 |
reine.de.tout Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:21:45pm |
re: #50 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Speaking of Jesus. I am reading the book “Lamb” by Christopher Moore.
Freaking fantastic. Hysterical. Irreverent without being blasphemous.
Review over.
Should your next one be “The Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove”?
| 139 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:22:48pm |
re: #137 Decatur Deb
“To preserve the quality of the wine, this bottle should be stored on its side in a cool, dark place, like a Katyusha shelter.”
Bottle of wine hits THIS house it doesn’t have time to “be stored”!!
| 140 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:26:07pm |
heh
Look at that
My son and his friends are actually OUTSIDE ,, PLAYING!!
Anyone have the temperature reading for HELL!?!?!
| 141 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:26:33pm |
re: #100 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
There was another book whose name escapes me where the intergalactic rules of warfare had strict guidelines on what technology could be used when conquering primitive planets, so the aliens kidnapped a Roman legion to serve as their ground forces.
Just watched the last Season 5 Dr. Who episode—Romans in that, too.
I like the bit where Dr. Song—after impersonating Cleopatra—tells the guy in charge about the aliens, and informs him, “We’re all barbarians now.”
And then shoots some stuff, just to give him the idea.
| 142 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:28:56pm |
re: #132 sattv4u2
street signs?
I was once in a cab, trying to get to a meeting in a totally unfamiliar town on time, when I realized that at least half the problem was that the cabbie was functionally illiterate, which makes finding a street you don’t know very, very difficult.
It was quite a cab ride.
| 143 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:29:54pm |
re: #140 sattv4u2
heh
Look at that
My son and his friends are actually OUTSIDE ,, PLAYING!!
Anyone have the temperature reading for HELL!?!?!
Although ,, what this ALSO means, is that they are re-building their appetites!!!
“hello, Pizza Hut,,,,”
| 144 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:31:20pm |
re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist
I was once in a cab, trying to get to a meeting in a totally unfamiliar town on time, when I realized that at least half the problem was that the cabbie was functionally illiterate, which makes finding a street you don’t know very, very difficult.
It was quite a cab ride.
Nothing worse than not knowing where you’re going then realizing your driver doesn’t know where HE’S going!
| 145 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:32:10pm |
re: #129 lostlakehiker
Weighting a sample helps to correct for accidental biases resulting from the fact that it can be easier to contact people who are more plugged in than those who aren’t. Failure to weight the sample caused the epic belly flop of Dewey beats Truman polling.
These guys are getting a better read on the situation than they would if they didn’t employ this professional-grade tool when they evaluated their raw data.
Actually, “Dewey Defeats Truman” was more driven by the need for the Chicago Tribune to get its issue out on time (a typesetter’s strike meant that it needed to finalize the morning edition earlier than most papers) coupled with the paper’s dislike of Democrats (Barack Obama is only Democratic presidential candidate the Tribune has ever endorsed).
| 146 |
sattv4u2 Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:40:45pm |
re: #145 Dark_Falcon
Actually, “Dewey Defeats Truman” was more driven by the need for the Chicago Tribune to get its issue out on time (a typesetter’s strike meant that it needed to finalize the morning edition earlier than most papers) coupled with the paper’s dislike of Democrats (Barack Obama is only Democratic presidential candidate the Tribune has ever endorsed).
Thats what I thought
I didn’t think it had anything to do with bad polling sampling!!
| 147 |
Vicious Babushka Thu, Dec 30, 2010 2:45:48pm |
re: #133 Sergey Romanov
Just a thought on one of the topics being discussed on this thread. Some of the European/ex-USSR far right do like Israel very much. Many - while being antisemitic. It’s not hard to understand. They see the state of Israel just like some on the far-far left do, it’s just unlike the far left the far right likes the fantasy picture of Israel in their head.
Wait, wait, let me understand.
They hear, “Israel is a racist, apartheid state!” And they think, “Hey that’s cool! I dig racism and apartheid!”
Am I right?
| 148 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Dec 30, 2010 3:58:46pm |
re: #147 Alouette
Wait, wait, let me understand.
They hear, “Israel is a racist, apartheid state!” And they think, “Hey that’s cool! I dig racism and apartheid!”
Am I right?
Exactly. Not all of them. But some do.
Just one good example from the biggest nationalist (and, for all intents and purposes, neo-fascist) Russian org DPNI (which also supports Wilders). Its founder and former leader is one Aleksandr Belov, who in 2008 interview said this:
[Link: www.rusrep.ru…]
In fact, I love Jews, we have a lot to learn from them. The State of Israel is a standard of a national state. It is necessary to take all of their laws, rewrite them by replacing the word “Jew” to “Russian” and “Judaism” for “Orthodox Christianity” - and happiness will come soon.
Needless to say Belov’s views are beyond disgusting. He was even sentenced for “calling for hostile actions by Russians against other groups, including Jews, peoples of Central Asia and Transcaucasia” (after which he stepped down as DPNI boss). This is not a seldom view. Many of them think like this. Another modification is that of a nationalist ideologue K. Krylov, who in a posting entitled “A defense of Israel from an antisemitic point of view” wrote:
[Link: krylov.livejournal.com…]I just wanted to demonstrate that one doesn’t have to love Jews in general and the most disgusting members of that tribe in particular to not wish victories for Arabs and to wish them to Israel.
Here Israel serves basically as a shield against “Muslim aggression”.
| 149 |
Joe Max Thu, Dec 30, 2010 4:24:06pm |
re: #113 Decatur Deb
Welcome. Hatched just in time for the Lizard tax deduction.
I guess I made it right under the line!
Thanks for the welcome, folks. I’ll try not to track mud across the floor.
| 150 |
Joe Max Thu, Dec 30, 2010 4:26:25pm |
re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist
Just watched the last Season 5 Dr. Who episode—Romans in that, too.
I like the bit where Dr. Song—after impersonating Cleopatra—tells the guy in charge about the aliens, and informs him, “We’re all barbarians now.”
And then shoots some stuff, just to give him the idea.
How do we know she wasn’t Cleopatra?
| 151 |
reloadingisnotahobby Thu, Dec 30, 2010 4:39:54pm |
I’m confused…So Free Masons are a Religion or not??
/
| 152 |
Amory Blaine Thu, Dec 30, 2010 8:39:30pm |
Hmm. We’re fighting Muslim extremists (half the country thinks it’s all Muslims). Capitalists and government have merged in an effort to build a Noahs Ark theme park. Christmas is the biggest time of year for retailers and about everyone else. But religion is losing it’s influence. OK.
| 153 |
Querent Thu, Dec 30, 2010 9:13:49pm |
re: #10 goddamnedfrank
Freerepublic quote of the day (Hitchens - Kissinger gas chamber comment thread, link goes to google search):
sounds like “cake or death” to me…
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