Sunday Morning Open

Charles Johnson

OpenJanuary 2011 • Views: 26,327

Came down with a nasty stomach flu yesterday, so here’s an open thread while I shuttle back and forth to the loo…

Open Thread

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550 comments

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:19:12am

Get better soon, Charles.

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:19:41am

Ahhh hope you're feeling better soon, Charles!

Watching the surgeons speaking on CNN now. They seem optimistic. So many people are praying for her. Surely hope for the best.

Ericus58 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:20:50am

"Skip, skip. Skip to the Loo......"
"Skip to the Loo, my darling!"

Liberal Classic Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:21:28am

I finally topped 1000 karma. :)

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:21:29am

Hope you recover quickly, Charles.

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:22:37am

re: #3 Ericus58

"Skip, skip. Skip to the Loo..."
"Skip to the Loo, my darling!"

*groaning, but LOL*

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:23:12am

re: #3 Ericus58

"Skip, skip. Skip to the Loo..."
"Skip to the Loo, my darling!"

Eek! Stomach flus are not fun at all!

b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:23:26am

re: #4 Liberal Classic

I finally topped 1000 karma. :)

To what address should we send the toaster? Or is it a coffee maker this month?

Ericus58 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:23:48am

re: #6 CuriousLurker

*groaning, but LOL*

I'm sorry - please forgive my crass humor ;)

Get better soon, Charles.

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:23:56am

re: #4 Liberal Classic

I finally topped 1000 karma. :)

That's a nice little Karma you've got there. Shame if something happened to it."
(In Brookly's voice.)

rwmofo Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:23:56am

Happy Birthday Jimmy Page.

...and for something completely different.

Largely because of Jimmy Page, I have a Les Paul just like the one he's playing in that video. It will get some attention this afternoon, of course.

Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:24:47am

AllahPundit declines Frum's offer to tone down the hateful rhetoric....

Contra David Frum, I don’t see this as a particular moment to reflect on “extreme political rhetoric,” since there’s nothing to connect political rhetoric from either side of the political spectrum to this crime. I wouldn’t even call for reflection on the continued sales of Mein Kampf or The Communist Manifesto, even though the suspect credits both of these as among his favorites, as they have no causal connection to the actions of a lunatic. Perhaps, though, this is a good moment to reflect on those who rush to exploit tragedy in an attempt to bully political activists into silence.
The time to criticize “extreme political rhetoric” is when it occurs, and making sure that the people making the accusations aren’t just as culpable as those they attempt to indict.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:25:49am

Road to Nowhere

Youtube Video

Ericus58 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:26:21am

A few errands to run, back later all.

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:26:58am

re: #6 CuriousLurker

*groaning, but LOL*

ditto.

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:27:39am

Charles, hope you're better soon (like, maybe this is 24-hour "flu", nothing more).

lawhawk Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:29:02am

Feel better Charles... lots of fluids and chicken soup will help get you back on your feet and feeling better...

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:29:25am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

AllahPundit declines Frum's offer to tone down the hateful rhetoric...

Good grief. They're falling over themselves to keep on clinging to their comments. They want to be able to continue with the vitriol whether it's proven to be connected to this tragedy or not. It's not healthy and it's not safe.

And we have been criticizing the rhetoric all along. Some good it does.

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:31:00am

re: #17 lawhawk

Feel better Charles... lots of fluids and chicken soup will help get you back on your feet and feeling better...

And if he can't eat anything, POPSICKLES are great for keeping hydrated.

Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:31:23am

re: #18 marjoriemoon

Good grief. They're falling over themselves to keep on clinging to their comments. They want to be able to continue with the vitriol whether it's proven to be connected to this tragedy or not. It's not healthy and it's not safe.

And we have been criticizing the rhetoric all along. Some good it does.

It's interesting how vigorously they're fighting to keep their crazy talk. On some level I think they're afraid what they'd do without it. They'd have to come up with real ideas and legitimate criticism.

lawhawk Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:32:01am

Looks like Hamas is worried about blowback. After two separate kassam and mortar barrages were fired from Gaza and injured four in Israel, Hamas has warned other terror groups to cease and desist.

And bear in mind that terrorists fired 235 kassams and mortars into Israel during 2010. That works out to 4.5 per week - every week. They've already fired 10 this year.

So, when Israel eventually responds with force, know that the terrorists have been attacking Israel incessantly and that Israel's reprisals are well deserved.

jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:32:24am

Stomach flu's are the worst.

I spent four years at college and stomach flu was the only time I was genuinely really really sick.

There were a few times when I threw up a little and then felt fine afterwards, but when I came down with stomach flu I ended up vomiting four times and two of them were into campus trash cans and another was actually flat out on the hallway floor....

I came down with it on Saturday, and I wasn't ready to attend classes until Wensday...

Hope you feel better soon Charles....

Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:34:06am

Instapundit is on quite a run this morning. He's now hinting that this is another crisis created by the left for Obama to exploit....

Mark Penn said Obama needs another Oklahoma City. And they want to give it to him. But aren’t they being a bit transparent, here?
Or is it a ruse? (link to ann Althouse)

But whose interests are served by chewing up the wounded flesh in the meat grinder of political rhetoric and whose interests are served by pretending to be above all that? Liberals have an interest in creating a big distraction that might undercut the prevailing conservative momentum. To conservatives, I would say: Don’t help them.

Hmm.

It's an inside job!

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:34:23am

re: #18 marjoriemoon

Good grief. They're falling over themselves to keep on clinging to their comments. They want to be able to continue with the vitriol whether it's proven to be connected to this tragedy or not. It's not healthy and it's not safe.

But it's lucrative and takes little effort.

b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:34:56am

re: #22 jamesfirecat

Stomach flu's are the worst.

I spent four years at college and stomach flu was the only time I was genuinely really really sick.

There were a few times when I threw up a little and then felt fine afterwards, but when I came down with stomach flu I ended up vomiting four times and two of them were into campus trash cans and another was actually flat out on the hallway floor...

I came down with it on Saturday, and I wasn't ready to attend classes until Wensday...

Hope you feel better soon Charles...

The only time I've thrown up in the last 50 years was under the table at Oktoberfest.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:34:58am

OK, I never had anything good to say about RussiaToday but this is a jaw-dropper even for me. Fucking Jared Taylor whining about persecution:

Youtube Video

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:35:23am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

re: #20 Killgore Trout

re: #23 Killgore Trout

They've lost their minds.

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:35:38am

re: #25 b_sharp

The only time I've thrown up in the last 50 years was under the table at Oktoberfest.

That was you?

(get better Charles)

rwmofo Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:35:45am

re: #19 reine.de.tout

And if he can't eat anything, POPSICKLES are great for keeping hydrated.

When I had pneumonia about 30 years ago, the Dr. told me that I was gong to sweat a lot (I did), so stock up on Gatorade to replenish the minerals - or something like that.

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:35:46am

re: #8 b_sharp

To what address should we send the toaster? Or is it a coffee maker this month?

I think at 1000 you just get a gold stickum star..I mean, like, who gives....
never mind, downding me

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:36:36am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Instapundit is on quite a run this morning. He's now hinting that this is another crisis created by the left for Obama to exploit...

I knew it would be Obama's fault/conspiracy within 24 hours or less. Ugh. I wish I'd been wrong.

jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:36:43am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Liberals have an interest in creating a big distraction that might undercut the prevailing conservative momentum.

That's pretty twisty.

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:37:23am

re: #20 Killgore Trout

It's interesting how vigorously they're fighting to keep their crazy talk. On some level I think they're afraid what they'd do without it. They'd have to come up with real ideas and legitimate criticism.

shutting down the hot blab implies guilt...the truth hurts but to flee from it is cowardly

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:39:13am

re: #21 lawhawk

Looks like Hamas is worried about blowback. After two separate kassam and mortar barrages were fired from Gaza and injured four in Israel, Hamas has warned other terror groups to cease and desist.

And bear in mind that terrorists fired 235 kassams and mortars into Israel during 2010. That works out to 4.5 per week - every week. They've already fired 10 this year.

So, when Israel eventually responds with force, know that the terrorists have been attacking Israel incessantly and that Israel's reprisals are well deserved.

That still won't mater to the Hamas apologists. They'll start right in with the crap about "disproportionate use of force".

Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:40:19am

Wow, the hatred directed at me on Twitter today is really over the top.

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:40:42am

re: #31 CuriousLurker

I knew it would be Obama's fault/conspiracy within 24 hours or less. Ugh. I wish I'd been wrong.

Anything to keep the cash register ringing.

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:40:58am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Instapundit is on quite a run this morning. He's now hinting that this is another crisis created by the left for Obama to exploit...

Hmm.

It's an inside job!

Gosh, combat the crazy with more crazy.

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:41:16am

re: #26 Sergey Romanov

OK, I never had anything good to say about RussiaToday but this is a jaw-dropper even for me. Fucking Jared Taylor whining about persecution:

[Video]

Believe it or not, it gets worse:

[Link: rt.com...]

Then, has affirmative action turned into a form of discrimination against all whites? Are poor Americans falling behind? Alyona is joined by Jared Taylor the editor of American Renaissance and Adam Lerman, an organizer for affirmative action group By Any Means Necessary. They debate what race is worse off in this recession and who’s to blame, if anyone and how to measure equality.

Liberal Classic Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:41:22am

re: #26 Sergey Romanov

I'm threatened by his Thurston B. Howell, III accent.

b_snark (Fact-Checker Extraordinaire) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:41:44am

re: #35 Charles

Wow, the hatred directed at me on Twitter today is really over the top.

They're just being poopy-heads.

(Sorry. I couldn't help myself)

charlz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:42:10am

Esbjörn Svensson Trio - Elevation of Love (Live / 2004) :

Youtube Video

sattv4u2 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:42:48am

re: #21 lawhawk

Hamas has warned other terror groups to cease and desist.

re: #34 Dark_Falcon

That still won't mater to the Hamas apologists. They'll start right in with the crap about "disproportionate use of force".

OR , Hamas doesn't want any competition!!

Seriously,, Drak, as you said, Hamas is just setting the scenario of when Israel retaliates Hamas can claim disproportionate use of force and show the world "Hey ,, look ,,we told other groups to back off, now Israel has come in and killed women and children!"

Digital Display Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:43:00am

So I woke up Saturday Morning at 4am.. Couldn't go back to sleep so I got up and went into the living room turned on the TV and was watching COPS..At 4:30am somebody walked up and knocked on my door..Freaked me out..
I have no idea what that was about...I just sat there as they walked away..Wierd

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:43:10am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Instapundit is on quite a run this morning. He's now hinting that this is another crisis created by the left for Obama to exploit...

Yep. And the shooter is just a lone nutcase too, I bet.

It was only a matter of time before all the excuses started flying. Wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not. It's par for the course for what we've seen since 2008.

William of Orange Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:43:48am

Came down with a nasty stomach flu yesterday, so here’s an open thread while I shuttle back and forth to the loo…

Is that a Mark Twain quote? :)

jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:43:59am

re: #29 rwmofo

When I had pneumonia about 30 years ago, the Dr. told me that I was gong to sweat a lot (I did), so stock up on Gatorade to replenish the minerals - or something like that.

Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes!

sattv4u2 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:44:04am

re: #43 HoosierHoops

So I woke up Saturday Morning at 4am.. Couldn't go back to sleep so I got up and went into the living room turned on the TV and was watching COPS..At 4:30am somebody walked up and knocked on my door..Freaked me out..
I have no idea what that was about...I just sat there as they walked away..Wierd

It was Ed McMahon,, you just blew it,, he had a HUGE check for 15 million dollars!

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:44:29am

re: #35 Charles

Wow, the hatred directed at me on Twitter today is really over the top.

Any especially nasty/stupid ones?

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:44:44am

re: #35 Charles

Wow, the hatred directed at me on Twitter today is really over the top.

Share. It's time for another trip to the tip jar. (I pay by the threat.)

Kefirah Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:45:57am

it's been a while since i checked in here at "the footballs." however, yesterday's tragedy sent me scrambling for honest, solid reporting; nu, i'm back. thankee, charles + fellow lizards for maintaining integrity.

i have to say that i'm sick to my stomach reading comments about the shooting. an acquaintance [who skews VERY conservative] actually had the temerity to argue that any connection to sarah palin is spurious because:

"jewish congresswoman shot, jewish staffer killed, shooter lists mein kampf among favorite books, and sarah palin is at fault? really?"

had to slam my head against a wall to clear my brain after reading that. "he must be a nazi, therefore sarah palin is entirely innocent of spouting inflammatory rhetoric!" talk about godwining a national discourse.

baruch dayan haemet for the deceased, and a refuah shleimah for the injured.

hope everyone has a better day...

[and charles: matzoh ball soup will fix you right up!]

zora Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:47:01am

reading the accounts of some of the eyewitnesses of the shooting in az. i saw a couple of accounts that said that it took about 30 min. for ems to arrive on the scene. that made it even more amazing that gifford did not succumb to the gun shoot wound to the head. it appears that an intern of gifford's deserves much of the credit for this.

Daniel Hernandez, intern, stays by Gabrielle Giffords' side
UA student pulls her into lap, holds head to stop bleeding

More from Gateway pundit:

Of course, now we know that Democrats plotted to blame the tea party for the slaughter. That may explain why we have DHS going after a hate group that just happens to have Gadsden Flags ads on their website… And the media trying to link the pro-Marx lunatic to the tea party.

Lol

101

Liberal Classic Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:07:21am

re: #71 CuriousLurker

About an hour ago I discovered that there are people who actually view The Wonderful Wizard of Oz as an allegorical road map for successful monetary policy.

Someone sent me a link to The Secret of Oz. Having no idea what it was about, I started watching the video. Within the first 60 seconds I suspected I was watching something wingnutty—shots of the Capitol, TP'ers, our way of life & freedoms are under attack, etc. The next 60 seconds sealed it for me when the filmmaker started talking about the yellow brick road Dorothy's shoes having originally been silver. Then Joseph Farah popped up on the screen and I was done.

WTF?

People like to make hay about L. Frank Baum's writing. It is supposedly a social satire, or commentary on monetary policy, or a populist fairy tale. I'm not sure any of these are widely accepted, though.

102

rwmofo Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:07:34am

About an hour ago it was raining hard in Plano. Now it's snowing (rare for the Dallas area). I was wondering why it got so quiet.

103

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:07:38am

re: #96 Killgore Trout

I'm so tempted to start taunting Breitbart but I'm trying to behave myself. Damn it's tempting.

jump KT! jump!

104

moderatelyradicalliberal Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:08:33am

re: #102 rwmofo

I live in the Dallas area too. The snow it really coming down.

105

Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:08:39am

re: #103 albusteve

jump KT! jump!

No dice.

106

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:08:39am

re: #102 rwmofo

About an hour ago it was raining hard in Plano. Now it's snowing (rare for the Dallas area). I was wondering why it got so quiet.

Snow in Texas! Time to fire up the anti-AGW Talking Points Machinery!!!

107

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:08:53am

re: #83 elizajane

I just want to spend a moment thinking about Christina Green, who was born on the date of one act of senseless violence and died as the victim of another, just nine years later.

I made a page about her early this morning. All the loss of life and injuries yesterday were tragic, but Christina never even got a chance to grow up and realize any of her hopes & dreams.

108

jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:08:58am

re: #98 Sergey Romanov

Here's Pat of the Political Byline assuring us he is not a neo-Nazi:

[Link: www.politicalbyline.com...]

Spiders in the jar.

Huh? I've never heard that expresion before ("Spiders in the jar" what does it mean"?

109

rwmofo Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:09:27am

re: #95 Decatur Deb

I've seen the Oz thing discussed in non-wingnutty contexts, but it referred to the "Free Silver" movement of the WJ Bryan era.

...and you're supposed to watch it while listening to "Dark Side Of The Moon."

110

moderatelyradicalliberal Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:09:31am

re: #108 jamesfirecat

I think it means crabs in a barrel.

111

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:09:37am

re: #92 Killgore Trout

Check out Breitbart's latest tweet. Gateway Pundit "BREAKING: DEMOCRATS PLOTTED TO BLAME TEA PARTY FOR SLAUGHTER!"
Instapundit arrived at the same conspiracy theory. The Wingnuts got their "inside job" talking points.

Jebus! Six people are dead (including a nine year old child), 14 people wounded, and they want to spin this horrible event for political points?

Fucking depressing.

112

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:09:56am

re: #105 Killgore Trout

No dice.

*Pushes KT*

113

NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:09:57am

re: #93 Amory Blaine

There has been no call to tone down the rhetoric from the right and Palin has denied any culpability. These fuckups are unreachable and irrational. How can you have civil discourse with them? What can be done?

Howard Kurtz has called for both sides to do that:

"This isn't about a nearly year-old Sarah Palin map; it's about a lone nutjob who doesn't value human life. It would be nice if we briefly put aside partisan differences and came together with sympathy and support for Gabby Giffords and the other victims, rather than opening rhetorical fire ourselves."

114

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:10:09am

re: #87 Sergey Romanov

IIRC that guy was delinked by the likes of RSM for open antisemitism...

Indeed. That guy is so hateful even the Stalkers stopped defending him.

115

Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:10:56am

re: #96 Killgore Trout

I'm so tempted to start taunting Breitbart but I'm trying to behave myself. Damn it's tempting.

If I felt better I'd be doing that myself. Breitbart's fun to wind up.

116

Obdicut Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:11:01am

re: #100 Killgore Trout

The entire reason they're calling him pro-Marx is because the Communist Manifesto is one of his 'favorite' books?

It's one of mine, too. Everyone should read it. I don't at all agree with the conclusions that Marx comes to, but as a critique, it's very, very good.

117

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:11:07am

re: #114 Dark_Falcon

Indeed. That guy is so hateful even the Stalkers stopped defending him.

Yeah. Seems like everybody hates ol' Paleo-Pat/Chuck Adkins.

118

rwmofo Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:11:11am

re: #104 moderatelyradicalliberal

I live in the Dallas area too. The snow it really coming down.

Was planning on going to the gym this afternoon. I probably will since I have a 4WD.

119

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:11:45am

re: #98 Sergey Romanov

Here's Pat of the Political Byline assuring us he is not a neo-Nazi:

[Link: www.politicalbyline.com...]

Spiders in the jar.

An in case you're interested just what these epithets were, I give you a screenshot hosted at RedState of Pat's posting entitled "The Feckless Far-Right: Exhibit ZS for Zionist Stupidity". I promise you, it gets better:

Image: zionist.png

120

Obdicut Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:12:06am

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

I'm trying to respect Gifford by repeating this quote of hers as often as I can:

"They really need to realize that the rhetoric and firing people up, and, you know, even things for example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, that the way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gunsight over our district. When people do that, you gotta realize there's consequences to that action."

121

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:12:40am

re: #108 jamesfirecat

Huh? I've never heard that expresion before ("Spiders in the jar" what does it mean"?

... eating each other.

122

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:13:00am

Lunch. BBL

123

moderatelyradicalliberal Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:13:02am

re: #118 rwmofo

I'm saying my ass at home. LOL!

I like days when I have a perfect excuse to not go outside and be productive in anyway. They are so rare.

124

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:13:14am

re: #108 jamesfirecat

Huh? I've never heard that expresion before ("Spiders in the jar" what does it mean"?

It means they are trapped and everyone is seeing them for what they are.

125

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:13:43am

re: #91 jamesfirecat

re: #101 Liberal Classic

I understand the socio-political-economic allegory part, I just think it's silly to consider it a viable roadmap for present day monetary policy. Especially when people like Joseph Farah approve.

126

moderatelyradicalliberal Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:14:19am

re: #120 Obdicut

Every time a read or see the video clip of this, I get a chill.

127

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:14:28am

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

Howard Kurtz has called for both sides to do that:

Good on him, but more need to join him.

128

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:14:38am

re: #108 jamesfirecat

Huh? I've never heard that expresion before ("Spiders in the jar" what does it mean"?

Oh, I thought they meant "Spiders from Mars"

Youtube Video

129

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:14:48am

re: #105 Killgore Trout

No dice.

good choice

130

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:14:50am

re: #125 CuriousLurker

re: #101 Liberal Classic

I understand the socio-political-economic allegory part, I just think it's silly to consider it a viable roadmap for present day monetary policy. Especially when people like Joseph Farah approve.

Click your heels three times and the economy will recover.
Or something.

131

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:14:56am

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

Howard Kurtz has called for both sides to do that:

Yeah cling to that raft.

132

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:15:11am

re: #74 rwmofo

There's a huge difference between what is going on with Muslims and Jews in the Middle East and what's going on here in the States. As a Zionist, my heart is in Jerusalem and I will always support our people, but the issues in Israel are wholly different, mainly (not entirely) because they are still dealing with war and land issues.

I support the NY mosque because I believe in our constitutional right of freedom of religion for all people. American Muslims love the U.S. as we all do and live here to be a part of that American dream. We need to be an example of hope in the world, where all people can live along side of one another no matter their race, creed or religion. We can show the world this can be done. It is people like Geller and her nasty ilk who cannot comprehend that. They mix up the issues to spread their hatred and by doing so, kill the American dream for everyone.

133

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:15:22am

re: #131 Amory Blaine

And fuck that both sides bullshit fuck him.

134

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:15:49am

re: #108 jamesfirecat

Huh? I've never heard that expresion before ("Spiders in the jar" what does it mean"?

like spiders in a jar

135

jamesfirecat Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:16:16am

re: #125 CuriousLurker

re: #101 Liberal Classic

I understand the socio-political-economic allegory part, I just think it's silly to consider it a viable roadmap for present day monetary policy. Especially when people like Joseph Farah approve.

Not to mention that the point of the allegory was all about how America CAN'T BE SUCCESSFUL if we have a limited monetary supply.

The thing that the allegory was in theory arguing for, the minting of silver was their way of attempting to liberate their society from the problems of having ONLY A GOLD BACK CURRENCY something oh so many people on the right now want to go back to...

Not that this would be the first time crazies have totally distorted the message/meaning of past events.

136

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:16:50am

re: #116 Obdicut

The entire reason they're calling him pro-Marx is because the Communist Manifesto is one of his 'favorite' books?

It's one of mine, too. Everyone should read it. I don't at all agree with the conclusions that Marx comes to, but as a critique, it's very, very good.

just proves how flimsy their stand is....a house of cards

137

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:17:03am

re: #90 Gus 802

Image: chuck-adkins-paleopat-political-byline.jpg

I thought I recognized that pic. From 2007 (Cached link):

"This might explain why this Christina Hendrix bitch is dead, If I had to hang around idiots like that, I’d fucking die too.

Yeah, I said that, I meant ever fucking word of it."

- Chuck Adkins, on the death of a rival blogger's wife.

138

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:17:57am

re: #133 Amory Blaine

Cool off, Hater.

139

NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:18:59am

re: #120 Obdicut

Last night after I got control of the TV I put on the football game. During a commercial I went to the various news channels to get updates on the shooting since I missed most of it. FNC had a commercial, went to MSNBC and Keith Olbermann was blaming the right, went to CNN and Wolf Blitzer said the shooter didn't represent either side, went back to FNC and they were still at commercial, went back to the game and fell asleep before it was over.

140

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:19:07am

re: #134 Sergey Romanov

like spiders in a jar

Ooo, nice idiom. That one's a keeper.

It reminds me of crabs in a barrel, but more sinister.

141

Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:19:22am

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

Howard Kurtz has called for both sides to do that:

I'm so weary of these absurd attempts to equate the rhetoric "from both sides." It's NOT the same. Right wing rhetoric has been completely demented since Obama was elected.

142

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:19:29am

Well, it did prompt Sarah to take down her bullseye map, but she will never admit that is why. Or even acknowledge doing it...

143

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:19:55am

re: #141 Charles

I'm so weary of these absurd attempts to equate the rhetoric "from both sides." It's NOT the same. Right wing rhetoric has been completely demented since Obama was elected.

Yeah and I should cool off. Fuck that.

144

elizajane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:21:35am

re: #142 ralphieboy

Well, it did prompt Sarah to take down her bullseye map, but she will never admit that is why. Or even acknowledge doing it...

Oh, it did more than that. However much she may send condolences, wipe websites clean, talk about "surveyors markers" instead of gun sights, and try to weasel around her own words on Fox, the woman is toast as a political candidate. In fact, I thought she was toast after the reality show; now she is singed toast.

145

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:21:35am

re: #132 marjoriemoon

I support the NY mosque because I believe in our constitutional right of freedom of religion for all people. American Muslims love the U.S. as we all do and live here to be a part of that American dream. We need to be an example of hope in the world, where all people can live along side of one another no matter their race, creed or religion. We can show the world this can be done. It is people like Geller and her nasty ilk who cannot comprehend that. They mix up the issues to spread their hatred and by doing so, kill the American dream for everyone.

QFA.

146

rwmofo Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:21:51am

There's a football game on TV. Later.

147

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:22:00am

re: #143 Amory Blaine

Yeah and I should cool off. Fuck that.

so what is your anger accomplishing besides elevating your BP....everybody is angry, but we are dealing with printed words

148

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:22:35am

re: #146 rwmofo

There's a football game on TV. Later.

really?....I might check it out
GO PACKERS!

149

NJDhockeyfan Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:23:33am

re: #146 rwmofo

There's a football game on TV. Later.

I'm with that. Got more things to do here at the house and watching football is one of them.

150

jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:23:41am

re: #141 Charles

I'm so weary of these absurd attempts to equate the rhetoric "from both sides." It's NOT the same. Right wing rhetoric has been completely demented since Obama was elected.

Peter Daou wrote a good piece on that here: [Link: peterdaou.com...]

When center becomes right and right becomes far right, conservatives can get away with wilder and weirder behavior. Exhortations from radio blatherers to bash liberals are dismissed as “entertainment.” Glenn Beck’s bizarre rantings barely get a yawn.
This has been a long time coming and culpability lies not just with the haters but with those in the media and Democratic establishment who refuse to confront the hate-mongering when they see it.

151

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:23:41am

re: #144 elizajane

Oh, it did more than that. However much she may send condolences, wipe websites clean, talk about "surveyors markers" instead of gun sights, and try to weasel around her own words on Fox, the woman is toast as a political candidate. In fact, I thought she was toast after the reality show; now she is singed toast.

I was thinking exactly the same thing yesterday.

152

Renaissance_Man Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:23:41am

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Good on him, but more need to join him.

Good on him? Read the piece.

What a crock of shit.

'Some commentators' blamed Glenn Beck for the Tides Foundation wannabe gunman? Really? He said it himself, Kurtz, you idiot.

Kurtz isn't calling for more responsible rhetoric. He's saying, 'The fact that a Democrat was shot in cold blood after two-plus years of violent, anti-government rhetoric and repeated episodes of violence in the same anti-government vein has nothing to do with the anti-government rhetoric. And if you evil liberals would just stop pushing your political agenda and destroying America, we wouldn't have any of these problems. You liberals have only yourselves to blame.'

153

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:23:51am

re: #144 elizajane

A woman who posts "don't retreat, reload" and portrays herself on TV as a caribou-blasting grizzly mom was trying to say those were "surveyor's markers"?

That is just craven.

154

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:24:02am

re: #147 albusteve

so what is your anger accomplishing besides elevating your BP...everybody is angry, but we are dealing with printed words

Except you know the right wing has been calling liberals traitors since Iraq and I'm dead tired of their lying bullshit.

155

Semper Fi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:24:08am

re: #61 jaunte

50,000 rally against changing Pakistan's blasphemy law

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

50,000!
It seems radicals are so easily rallied whatever the cause.

Good morning all.

156

FQ Kafir Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:24:41am

Investigators have allegedly linked the shooter to the American Rennaissance, an offshoot of New Century Foundation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-youtube-videos-_n_806370.html

157

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:24:42am

And stalker "Doppelganger" called LGF a "far left hate site". He called the Daily Kos the same thing and then said that the "hateful rhetoric" from sites like ours was causing graduates of public schools to be "tripped over the brink". Per the request of Charles, I am not posting the entire post. But the insanity of it is just stunning and I felt it needed to be mentioned.

158

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:25:46am

re: #154 Amory Blaine

Except you know the right wing has been calling liberals traitors since Iraq and I'm dead tired of their lying bullshit.

You may call them traitors, you may call for their arrest and trial. But advocating violence against them is just beyond the pale of civil discourse, and that is the problem I have been having with the Right since 2008.

159

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:25:56am

Whitewash - To whitewash is to gloss over or cover up vices, crimes or scandals or to exonerate by means of a perfunctory investigation or through biased presentation of data. It is especially used in the context of corporations, governments or other organizations.

Whitewash - Concealment or palliation of flaws or failures.

160

moderatelyradicalliberal Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:26:32am

re: #150 jaunte

But the problem is Democrats and the media aren't listened to by the far right. The people they trust and believe have the most responsibility to calm this rhetoric down because they have the most ability to do it. They aren't going to listen to Barack Obama telling them to chill out. That's why I don't hold out much hope. The people who can do it, won't do it. They benefit from it.

161

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:26:50am

re: #158 ralphieboy

You may call them traitors, you may call for their arrest and trial. But advocating violence against them is just beyond the pale of civil discourse, and that is the problem I have been having with the Right since 2008.

Welcome to the party but this problem has predated 2008. Obama just brought it out into the wide open.

162

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:27:01am

re: #155 Semper Fi

We are on the verge of losing Pakistan, which will really shift the balance of diplomacy in Asia and make things a lot more difficult for the US.

163

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:28:11am

re: #161 Amory Blaine

Welcome to the party but this problem has predated 2008. Obama just brought it out into the wide open.

Yes, but after 2008 it reached a level that went beyond civil discourse and started to border on sedition.

164

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:29:29am

re: #155 Semper Fi

50,000!
It seems radicals are so easily rallied whatever the cause.

Good morning all.

There's also people afraid to oppose the blasphemy law. Sadly, the killer of Punjab's governor got what he wanted. The radicals a rallying and everyone else is scared into silence.

165

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:29:33am

re: #163 ralphieboy

Yes, but after 2008 it reached a level that went beyond civil discourse and started to border on sedition.

The eliminationist rhetoric on right wing media was full blast after 9/11. Every one of them was calling liberals traitors and terrorist sypathisers while we were supposed to be "together" as a country.

166

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:30:51am

re: #165 Amory Blaine

The eliminationist rhetoric on right wing media was full blast after 9/11. Every one of them was calling liberals traitors and terrorist sypathisers while we were supposed to be "together" as a country.

I won't disagree with you there, but subjectively, it really started sticking in my craw with Obama's election.

167

moderatelyradicalliberal Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:31:41am

re: #166 ralphieboy

The bad economy hasn't helped either.

168

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:32:43am

re: #144 elizajane

Oh, it did more than that. However much she may send condolences, wipe websites clean, talk about "surveyors markers" instead of gun sights, and try to weasel around her own words on Fox, the woman is toast as a political candidate. In fact, I thought she was toast after the reality show; now she is singed toast.

Some of Alex Jones' fans have already said that this was an inside job false flag attack by the NWO (as predicted) designed to get rid of Sarah Palin (this part I didn't expect).

169

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:32:48am

Robert Stacy McCain:

I just conducted a telephone interview with Jared Taylor of American Renaissance. He said his group has no record of accused shooter Jared Loughner ever being involved with the organization. Taylor said there is no basis for the DHS characterization of American Renaissance as “anti-ZOG,” anti-Semitic or anti-government.
Taylor has been contacted by Fox News, CNN and the New York Times. He said he has contacted the Department of Homeland Security in an effort to determine why his group was named in this memo. Taylor said he believes that his organization may have been cited by DHS simply because of the coincidence of the name “Jared” being identified as the perpetrator of the shooting. He said he will post an official response later today.

The article RSM wrote for AmRen:

[Link: www.amren.com...]

The letter to the editor:

[Link: www.amren.com...]

170

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:33:17am

re: #161 Amory Blaine

Welcome to the party but this problem has predated 2008. Obama just brought it out into the wide open.

It was all over the place during the Clinton admin, you just had to know where to look. Lots of militia movements, anti-gov't rhetoric and what not.

The difference between then and now is the proliferation of the internet. This stuff is more visible and more easily connected now.

171

moderatelyradicalliberal Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:33:38am

re: #168 000G

Those people sound too stupid to live. I can't believe they haven't forgotten to stop breathing.

172

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:33:41am

re: #167 moderatelyradicalliberal

The bad economy hasn't helped either.

Bad economy and a "foreign" force to blame for it = recipe for rightwing disaster.

173

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:34:23am

re: #170 Slumbering Behemoth

It was all over the place during the Clinton admin, you just had to know where to look. Lots of militia movements, anti-gov't rhetoric and what not.

The difference between then and now is the proliferation of the internet. This stuff is more visible and more easily connected now.

And they have their own news network, too...

174

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:34:51am

re: #166 ralphieboy

I won't disagree with you there, but subjectively, it really started sticking in my craw with Obama's election.

I'm more or less responding to this "both sides" bullshit. It is not both sides. And just because people are starting to speak up about the hate coming from the right, doesn't mean they are engaging in inflamed rhetoric. There is no history of widespread left wing media and leaders spreading eliminationist rhetoric. It is all coming from the right and they have been doing it for a long time.

175

moderatelyradicalliberal Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:35:29am

re: #172 000G

We really do have quite a bitch's brew for the crazy going don't we?

176

jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:37:53am

re: #169 Sergey Romanov

Well, if you can't trust a 'white race realist' phone interview of a white supremacist, the country is really in trouble.

177

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:38:07am

I'm heading out. Back later.

178

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:38:21am

re: #170 Slumbering Behemoth

It was all over the place during the Clinton admin, you just had to know where to look. Lots of militia movements, anti-gov't rhetoric and what not.

The difference between then and now is the proliferation of the internet. This stuff is more visible and more easily connected now.

It's not just that. It is also a skin color thing. This did not happen to Clinton:

Birthers: Obama is a foreigner not eligible to be President.
Anti-Muslim groups: Obama is a muslim trying to destroy the christian nation.
NWO conspiracy nuts: Obama is selling America to offshore globalists.
Mainline conservatives: Obama is a socialist who has an anti-colonial agenda to stick it to the white man because of his daddy issues.

And on and on and on. Not even getting into outright open racist crap.

179

Charles Johnson Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:38:41am

re: #169 Sergey Romanov

RS McCain denies up and down that he's a white supremacist, and yet here he is running interference for a blatant undeniable hate group.

180

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:38:43am

re: #174 Amory Blaine

Just look at the central imagery of the Tea Party: overthrowing a tyrannical government, which is what we did in 1776.

But they tend to overlook the fact that our current government was legally and democratically elected. Because that annoying stae of affairs pulls the rug out from their pathetic "Second Amendment Solution" fantasies

181

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:39:17am

re: #170 Slumbering Behemoth

The difference between then and now is the proliferation of the internet. This stuff is more visible and more easily connected now.

Y'know, I was thinking about that last night. There has been no shortage of nasty political rhetoric in our past, but email and the web have made its propagation virtually instantaneous and much more widely available. One of the downsides of technology.

182

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:39:25am

re: #173 ralphieboy

And all Rush has to do is reach back into the 1990's archives, dust 'em off a little and change a few names.

183

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:39:40am

re: #154 Amory Blaine

Except you know the right wing has been calling liberals traitors since ~~Iraq~~ FDR and I'm dead tired of their lying bullshit.

Perspectivized that fur 'ya.

184

Semper Fi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:40:15am

re: #162 ralphieboy

We are on the verge of losing Pakistan, which will really shift the balance of diplomacy in Asia and make things a lot more difficult for the US.

Yes, that is cause for major concern that I hope can be averted. Their nukes worry me too.

185

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:40:48am

re: #183 Decatur Deb

Perspectivized that fur 'ya.

Of course but I'm trying to keep it current. :)

186

jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:40:52am

re: #181 CuriousLurker

Y'know, I was thinking about that last night. There has been no shortage of nasty political rhetoric in our past, but email and the web have made its propagation virtually instantaneous and much more widely available. One of the downsides of technology.

Roger Ebert posted some ads for historical perspective:
[Link: blogs.suntimes.com...]

187

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:41:21am

re: #178 000G

It's not just that. It is also a skin color thing. This did not happen to Clinton:

Birthers: Obama is a foreigner not eligible to be President.
Anti-Muslim groups: Obama is a muslim trying to destroy the christian nation.
NWO conspiracy nuts: Obama is selling America to offshore globalists.
Mainline conservatives: Obama is a socialist who has an anti-colonial agenda to stick it to the white man because of his daddy issues.

And on and on and on. Not even getting into outright open racist crap.

I might want to add that one more differing factor from the Clinton era is that all of these different rightwing groups and movements are borrowing ideas from each other these days. It's full-fledged synergy. Nobody is ashamed of the fringe on the right anymore because the right has been mainstreaming it more and more. It's a big tent alright.

188

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:41:26am

re: #185 Amory Blaine

Of course but I'm trying to keep it current. :)

FDR is current. Young Punk.

189

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:42:03am

re: #154 Amory Blaine

Except you know the right wing has been calling liberals traitors since Iraq and I'm dead tired of their lying bullshit.

don't read that stuff....if it makes you angry then step away from your keyboard
jus sayin

190

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:42:37am

re: #186 jaunte

Roger Ebert posted some ads for historical perspective:
[Link: blogs.suntimes.com...]

Great link. Tanks!

191

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:43:27am

re: #190 CuriousLurker

Great link. Tanks!

Um, thanks even. ;)

192

Four More Beers Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:43:48am

re: #115 Charles

And it doesn't take much to wind him up. Quite a thrill, that pea-sized brain of his.

193

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:44:25am

re: #160 moderatelyradicalliberal

But the problem is Democrats and the media aren't listened to by the far right. The people they trust and believe have the most responsibility to calm this rhetoric down because they have the most ability to do it. They aren't going to listen to Barack Obama telling them to chill out. That's why I don't hold out much hope. The people who can do it, won't do it. They benefit from it.

rage has a half life....it will burn out at some point

194

Semper Fi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:44:27am

re: #164 Dark_Falcon

There's also people afraid to oppose the blasphemy law. Sadly, the killer of Punjab's governor got what he wanted. The radicals a rallying and everyone else is scared into silence.

I agree with you and also see our right wing gunsight stuff as intimidation.

195

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:44:32am

re: #189 albusteve

don't read that stuff...if it makes you angry then step away from your keyboard
jus sayin

Thanks for the concern. Shit really grinds my gears sometimes. I'll behave now ;)

196

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:44:43am

Afternoon Honcos.

197

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:45:34am

re: #178 000G

There is that extra layer, but without the internet as it is today, we wouldn't be seeing as much of it, out in the open like this, as we are now.

re: #181 CuriousLurker

I feel ya. It can get depressing, but then I think of stories like these, and remind myself that this technology can be a force for good as well.

198

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:45:35am

re: #196 Cannadian Club Akbar

Afternoon Honcos.

Dude!

199

FreedomMoon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:45:39am

re: #179 Charles

RS McCain denies up and down that he's a white supremacist, and yet here he is running interference for a blatant undeniable hate group.

Isn't this the guy that had his twitter user name as "Porchmonkey?" Or something to that effect?

200

Digital Display Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:45:45am

re: #196 Cannadian Club Akbar

Afternoon Honcos.

What's kick'n Chick'n?

201

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:46:12am

re: #198 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dude!

What's happening!!!

202

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:46:18am

re: #169 Sergey Romanov

You know, this guy reminds me so much of David Duke. I was recently watching a history of the Klan on The History Channel and after the Klan's national demise, when their numbers fell like a stone, Duke appeared as the shiny, new face. Good looking, educated fellow who stayed away from the most vitriol of statements against Blacks and Jews. He was the Father of the new Klan propaganda, spewing nonsense about "white nationalism" and "white persecution." But by going about it from that angle, he (and people like Taylor) manage to make their message palatable to others. It's a real mind fuck.

203

Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:46:22am

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Good on him, but more need to join him.

More need to join in pretending that violent political rhetoric has nothing to do with political violence?

As I have said before, this won't stop any time soon, because there are still plenty of people who want to believe, despite any amount of evidence to the contrary, that you can have peace while banging the drums of war.

If you can't see the connection between the rhetoric of Palin et. al., and the assassination attempt yesterday, then it is because you don't want to see it.

204

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:46:41am

re: #200 HoosierHoops

What's kick'n Chick'n?

The sun plows are in full force again.:)

205

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:46:42am

re: #201 Cannadian Club Akbar

Been concerned about you. Haven't seen ya for a while. Hope things are okay.

206

jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:46:50am

re: #199 tacuba14

Isn't this the guy that had his twitter user name as "Porchmonkey?" Or something to that effect?

[Link: www.urbandictionary.com...]

207

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:47:25am

re: #197 Slumbering Behemoth

True that.

Well, lizards, I was hoping my weekend chores would finish themselves if I ignored them for a while, but they don't appear to be cooperating. BBL...

208

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:48:00am

re: #205 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Been concerned about you. Haven't seen ya for a while. Hope things are okay.

Best analogy for the time being is Christmas lights that have been in the attic for a few years. But it's OK.

209

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:48:25am

re: #182 Slumbering Behemoth

And all Rush has to do is reach back into the 1990's archives, dust 'em off a little and change a few names.

During the press conference last night, the Sheriff of Pima County had their names right on his lips. He kinda hesitated, picked his words carefully, when he mentioned "TV" and "radio" vitriol being spewed. I was wondering if he would say "Beck" and "Limbaugh". He didn't, but he didn't have to.

210

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:48:38am

re: #162 ralphieboy

We are on the verge of losing Pakistan, which will really shift the balance of diplomacy in Asia and make things a lot more difficult for the US.

well, considering that there are probably only a thousand AQ and Talis combined, maybe we should cut them loose...whatever BOs 'plan' is for Afghanistan, it cannot and will not work....pull out and let them both go to hell...we can pound them with Preds whenever we find primo targets...warn the Pakis we will deal with their nukes, if they don't secure them and leave it at that

211

makeitstop Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:48:45am

Good day, Lizards. I have a question.

How six people getting shot and killed in Arizona turn into 'The liberals are trying to censor us?'

I post on an NBA board, and apparently between last night and this morning it stopped being about the people who were killed and wounded and became about conservatives as victims of the big, bad Librulz.

These guys have playing the victim down to a science.

212

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:49:01am

re: #208 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well, good to know you walk among us, even still.

See y'all later. Gonna watch some football.

213

Four More Beers Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:49:18am

re: #209 marjoriemoon

I noticed that myself.

214

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:49:55am

re: #211 makeitstop

Good day, Lizards. I have a question.

How six people getting shot and killed in Arizona turn into 'The liberals are trying to censor us?'

I post on an NBA board, and apparently between last night and this morning it stopped being about the people who were killed and wounded and became about conservatives as victims of the big, bad Librulz.

These guys have playing the victim down to a science.

I wonder where they learned it?

215

jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:50:14am

re: #211 makeitstop

It's a Cloward-Piven conspiracy.

216

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:50:19am

re: #195 Amory Blaine

Thanks for the concern. Shit really grinds my gears sometimes. I'll behave now ;)

don't want your head to pop!

217

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:50:22am

re: #209 marjoriemoon
From what I've read the guy was worried about gubment mind control. Out of the Beck/Limbaugh range. Think more AJ.

218

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:51:43am

re: #188 Decatur Deb

FDR is current. Young Punk.

Please teach me.

219

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:53:01am

re: #211 makeitstop

I don't get it either. Were it my nine year old daughter that was murdered yesterday, political ideologies would be the last thing on my mind.

220

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:53:15am

re: #218 Amory Blaine

Please teach me.

Patience, Grasshopper.

221

makeitstop Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:54:12am

re: #214 Walter L. Newton

I wonder where they learned it?

It wasn't me. /

222

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:55:22am

re: #203 Fozzie Bear

More need to join in pretending that violent political rhetoric has nothing to do with political violence?

As I have said before, this won't stop any time soon, because there are still plenty of people who want to believe, despite any amount of evidence to the contrary, that you can have peace while banging the drums of war.

If you can't see the connection between the rhetoric of Palin et. al., and the assassination attempt yesterday, then it is because you don't want to see it.

not sure this makes any sense....maybe I missed something

223

Obdicut Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:55:34am

re: #214 Walter L. Newton

I wonder where they learned it?

I think the tendency to play the victim card is an outgrowth of two things from modern 'conservatives': PC, and the idea of cultural values under attack.

PC is something that many 'conservatives' have played the victim card about for a long time, complaining that they're not allowed to phrase things certain ways due to PC (though still actually doing so in the form of the complaint.)

In addition, many 'conservatives' have complained that cultural values are shifting too quickly, are under attack, and that it's unfair and victimizing to shift them or move them. This is most visible in the 'conservative' opposition to gay rights, especially surrounding the term 'marriage'. The entire concept that gay people marrying can somehow affect the marriages of straight people is a gigantic victim card.

I think both of these things are leftovers from the civil rights era, where resistance to civil rights was often formed in a "It's moving too quickly, it's not fair" fashion or a "Our way of life is being taken away, even our language".

224

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:57:02am

re: #209 marjoriemoon

During the press conference last night, the Sheriff of Pima County had their names right on his lips. He kinda hesitated, picked his words carefully, when he mentioned "TV" and "radio" vitriol being spewed. I was wondering if he would say "Beck" and "Limbaugh". He didn't, but he didn't have to.

too bad he didn't have the guts to out them by name...another missed PC chance....people need to hear it

225

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 10:57:40am

re: #223 Obdicut

I think both of these things are leftovers from the civil rights era, where resistance to civil rights was often formed in a "It's moving too quickly, it's not fair" fashion or a "Our way of life is being taken away, even our language".

So they learned it from their parents. Values start in the home.

226

zora Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:02:18am

[Link: ajliebling.blogspot.com...]

Tuscon, Pakistan

The attempted assassination of a respected Congresswoman whose astronaut husband is scheduled for a mission this spring is a vivid reminder that it may be more dangerous to venture into politics these days than into an unknown void...

227

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:04:43am

re: #226 zora

[Link: ajliebling.blogspot.com...]

Nice of the author to slip in the gun control jab at the end.

228

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:04:51am

re: #223 Obdicut

Their twisted logic is this: we are a blessed and exceptional country because we believe in Christian values and embody them in our laws. Allowing gay marriage or gays in the military is seen as an abomination unto the Lord and will diminish us in His sight.

229

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:05:51am

re: #223 Obdicut

You know, you're pretty smart for an anarchist :p

Btw, I apologize for the saying that. I don't know what came over me. I guess I was upset, but it's no excuse. I hope you'll accept my apology for it.

230

nines09 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:06:13am

I await Glenn and Hannity and Rush and all the water boys for the hate fest that passed for a political party to turn this senseless act into an attack on them. Then we can listen to how the leftist socialist Marxist commies drove this troubled young man to do what he did. After all, it's just ~~words, rhetoric,phrases~~. No one would actually want this to happen. No one.
Isn't that right?

231

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:06:34am

re: #224 albusteve

too bad he didn't have the guts to out them by name...another missed PC chance...people need to hear it

Well he said what needed to be said pretty clearly. It riled up the rightwing masses anyway.

232

Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:07:36am

Meet Daniel Hernandez, the intern who likely saved Gabrielle Giffords’ life

Daniel Hernandez had only been Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' intern for five days, and on Saturday, he may have saved her life.

The University of Arizona junior was standing 30 feet away from the Democratic congresswoman when she was shot in the head at a meet-and-greet event in her district, and he immediately rushed to her side. As everyone on hand waited for emergency medical support to arrive, Hernandez held Giffords's head in his lap and applied pressure to her wound.

At the same time, Hernandez advised others on providing help for the other 20 others injured and killed in the attackâ€”and that quick thinking has led many to label him a hero in Saturday's horrific event.

233

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:07:55am

re: #226 zora

[Link: ajliebling.blogspot.com...]

Stupid hyperbole... there has been 17 American astronauts killed in space and 8 Russian astronauts killed in space. We have had an average of 500 astronauts in space.

Compare those figures to living politicians versus those who has suffered from the hands of an assassin.

Any politician getting injured or killed in this way is horrible, but I wish people would stop with the rhetoric and deal with facts. Including the Glenn Becks and et al.

234

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:09:19am

re: #144 elizajane

Oh, it did more than that. However much she may send condolences, wipe websites clean, talk about "surveyors markers" instead of gun sights, and try to weasel around her own words on Fox, the woman is toast as a political candidate. In fact, I thought she was toast after the reality show; now she is singed toast.

"Hard to refute she saw it as a "bullseye" not a surveyor's mark"

235

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:10:17am

re: #233 Walter L. Newton

Those going into space are aware of the risks, ones that arise from being explorers on the edge of new and sometimes unproven technology.

Those who enter politics should not have to be exposed to random violence.

236

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:11:02am

re: #234 Slumbering Behemoth

"Hard to refute she saw it as a "bullseye" not a surveyor's mark"

doubly craven...

237

Obdicut Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:11:41am

re: #229 marjoriemoon

You know, you're pretty smart for an anarchist :p

Btw, I apologize for the saying that. I don't know what came over me. I guess I was upset, but it's no excuse. I hope you'll accept my apology for it.

It's perfectly okay. I'm glad for the apology, though I was more just confused than anything else. I'm so very far from an anarchist. But don't worry about it-- forgiven, forgotten.

238

Renaissance_Man Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:12:44am

re: #230 nines09

I await Glenn and Hannity and Rush and all the water boys for the hate fest that passed for a political party to turn this senseless act into an attack on them. Then we can listen to how the leftist socialist Marxist commies drove this troubled young man to do what he did. After all, it's just ~~words, rhetoric,phrases~~. No one would actually want this to happen. No one.
Isn't that right?

No need to wait. That started happening within the hour after the shooting. By this time next week it will be established fact. And the resolve of the cult will be redoubled - the liberals incited this leftist nut to senseless murder, and calculatingly conspired to blame good conservatives for it. They must become even more passionate, before the liberals murder more people next.

239

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:13:06am

Jack Shafer seems to argue that the calls to cool the rhetoric are like the calls to "stop the Ground Zero Mosque": In Defense of Inflamed Rhetoric

240

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:13:32am

Tragedy in Tucson: Profile of Shooting Suspect

Youtube Video

241

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:14:17am

re: #235 ralphieboy

Those going into space are aware of the risks, ones that arise from being explorers on the edge of new and sometimes unproven technology.

Those who enter politics should not have to be exposed to random violence.

You miss my point... "this spring is a vivid reminder that it may be more dangerous to venture into politics these days than into an unknown void"

That line is not true.

242

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:15:33am

re: #237 Obdicut

It's perfectly okay. I'm glad for the apology, though I was more just confused than anything else. I'm so very far from an anarchist. But don't worry about it-- forgiven, forgotten.

Thank you :) It's been bothering me. You have a great mind and I enjoy reading what you have to say.

243

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:16:27am

re: #241 Walter L. Newton

Then it is hyperbole, but there is a big difference between known risks and random mayhem.

244

nines09 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:18:24am

re: #238 Renaissance_Man

That was my point. It will pick up with the "official" broadcasts on radio followed by the ramp up on TV. It might just turn out to be as shameless as anything recently vomited by this large ball of hate passing for a choice of beliefs know as.....
I was dreading something like this.

245

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:18:34am

re: #240 Gus 802

The more I hear about this mass murderer, the more I get to thinking that even he doesn't know what his political ideologies are.

246

nines09 Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:20:16am

re: #245 Slumbering Behemoth

The more I hear about this mass murderer, the more I get to thinking that even he doesn't know what his political ideologies are.

But he got a good long dose of who to hate, didn't he?

247

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:20:24am

re: #245 Slumbering Behemoth

The more I hear about this mass murderer, the more I get to thinking that even he doesn't know what his political ideologies are.

Yes, he was unstable, even insane. But the point is that the level of violent rhetoric out there just makes it heasier for people like him to rationalize and relativize their behavior. And there are lots more like him out there.

248

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:20:41am

re: #245 Slumbering Behemoth

The more I hear about this mass murderer, the more I get to thinking that even he doesn't know what his political ideologies are.

Agree. He wasn't for either side. He was a kook. He believed in gubment mind control.

249

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:20:53am

re: #243 ralphieboy

Then it is hyperbole, but there is a big difference between known risks and random mayhem.

I never said they were the same... but I did say it was "stupid hyperbole" in my comment. And I did say it was horrible that this happen. This shouldn't happen to any public servant just because someone doesn't agree with their politics.

Thanks you for agreeing with me.

250

Obdicut Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:21:14am

re: #242 marjoriemoon

Thank you :) It's been bothering me. You have a great mind and I enjoy reading what you have to say.

It is possible I'm a bananarchist, or an anachronist. Or even a bananachronist, who only eats these:

Image: pict0268.jpg

251

makeitstop Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:21:28am

re: #245 Slumbering Behemoth

The more I hear about this mass murderer, the more I get to thinking that even he doesn't know what his political ideologies are.

I want to know about this other 'person of interest' they're looking for. The narrative thus far has been 'lone wacko with a gun,' but the second person's level of involvement could radically change that narrative.

252

Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:22:03am

re: #245 Slumbering Behemoth

The more I hear about this mass murderer, the more I get to thinking that even he doesn't know what his political ideologies are.

They're looking for an older man who accompanied him. Wouldn't suprise me if he was a mentor.

253

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:22:39am

re: #251 makeitstop

I want to know about this other 'person of interest' they're looking for. The narrative thus far has been 'lone wacko with a gun,' but the second person's level of involvement could radically change that narrative.

Agree. The person of interest could have pointed the kook in the direction he personally wanted.

254

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:23:46am

re: #246 nines09

But he got a good long dose of who to hate, didn't he?

I don't know. I imagine we will find out as he is questioned. We don't know anything about his motives yet, and I'll be damned if I can figure out this loon based on his own words prior.

255

zora Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:24:05am

[Link: www.rollingstone.com...]

Matt Taibbi: The Crying Shame of John Boehner

Another Ohio Democrat, Steve Driehaus, clashed repeatedly with Boehner before losing his seat in the midterm elections. After Boehner suggested that by voting for Obamacare, Driehaus "may be a dead man" and "can't go home to the west side of Cincinnati" because "the Catholics will run him out of town," Driehaus began receiving death threats, and a right-wing website published directions to his house. Driehaus says he approached Boehner on the floor and confronted him.

"I didn't think it was funny at all," Driehaus says. "I've got three little kids and a wife. I said to him, 'John, this is bullshit, and way out of bounds. For you to say something like that is wildly irresponsible.'"

Driehaus is quick to point out that he doesn't think Boehner meant to urge anyone to violence. "But it's not about what he intended — it's about how the least rational person in my district takes it. We run into some crazy people in this line of work."

Driehaus says Boehner was "taken aback" when confronted on the floor, but never actually said he was sorry: "He said something along the lines of, 'You know that's not what I meant.' But he didn't apologize."

256

Semper Fi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:24:17am

re: #245 Slumbering Behemoth

The more I hear about this mass murderer, the more I get to thinking that even he doesn't know what his political ideologies are.

I read somewhere yesterday that his weapon was a 9mm with a special 30 round magazine. Don't know how true that is.

257

blueraven Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:25:37am

re: #19 reine.de.tout

And if he can't eat anything, POPSICKLES are great for keeping hydrated.

True...now they even have Gatorade popsickles.

258

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:25:42am

re: #254 Slumbering Behemoth

Seems a NWO type.

259

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:26:08am

re: #255 zora

So no tears from dear leader?

260

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:27:00am

I am beginning to think that the basic ideology of "anarcho-capitalists" or "libertarians" on the right is nothing but conservatism that got a little too antagonized by their realization that they had to pay x ammount of taxes. It's mostly extreme anti-tax conservatism, nothing more. The part of libertarians or anarchists that actually care about civil liberties and rights, a pluralistic society etc. seem to be the fringe on the right-wing these days, as the former fringe gets mainstreamed.

261

spocomptonite Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:27:03am

In other news, EWU wins their championship, Ganzaga won their game, and the Seahawks pulled off probably the biggest upset in the history of Washington State sports ever. Spokane, and indeed most of the rest of Washington (UW also won) is NUTS this weekend! Sorry, Canada, Idaho, and Oregon; hope the noise doesn't disturb you too much!

262

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:27:57am

re: #256 Semper Fi

I read somewhere yesterday that his weapon was a 9mm with a special 30 round magazine. Don't know how true that is.

Six dead and fourteen wounded, so it seems pretty likely to me.

263

jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:28:03am

re: #255 zora

Joe Barton:

"Speaker Boehner is our Dwight Eisenhower in the battle against the Obama Administration. Majority Leader Cantor is our Omar Bradley. I want to be George Patton - put anything in my scope and I will shoot it."

264

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:29:06am

re: #262 Slumbering Behemoth

Six dead and fourteen wounded, so it seems pretty likely to me.

I heard the same weapon used at the UVA massacre.

265

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:30:44am

re: #71 CuriousLurker

About an hour ago I discovered that there are people who actually view The Wonderful Wizard of Oz as an allegorical road map for successful monetary policy.

And here I thought it was something to watch with Dark Side of the Moon playing in the background. Who knew?

266

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:31:09am

re: #250 Obdicut

It is possible I'm a bananarchist, or an anachronist. Or even a bananachronist, who only eats these:

Image: pict0268.jpg

That doesn't look terribly tasty!

267

Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:31:55am

re: #263 jaunte

Joe Barton:

More proof that they are not articulate enough to speak in relevant terms to the task at hand but have to make analogies to war. This is part of the problem.

But how do we rationalize with people who are not that smart in the first place?

268

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:32:19am

re: #245 Slumbering Behemoth

The more I hear about this mass murderer, the more I get to thinking that even he doesn't know what his political ideologies are.

There's an obvious political bent to his words. However, his past history and the fact that he targeted a large group of people indicates to me that there is far more at play here than mere political ideals. He seems to be largely motivated by his own devious and deranged thoughts. People like this are known to be easily influenced by outside stimulation. We are in the end looking at multiple factors here.

269

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:32:26am

re: #260 000G

Modern Conservatism is not about personal liberties: on one hand, it is about letting corporations do whatever they want without government interference.

The other side of Modern Conservatism is about bringing America's laws into line with their idea of God's Law, which seeks to restrict a lot of the freedoms we have in this country.

270

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:34:33am

re: #111 Slumbering Behemoth

Jebus! Six people are dead (including a nine year old child), 14 people wounded, and they want to spin this horrible event for political points?

Fucking depressing.

Of course they do. If they spin it into a librul plant or conspiracy, they aren't responsible for anything they've been saying for the past two years.

271

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:34:37am

And of course, not being the type to let any opportunity slip by to behave like the scum of the earth, the Westboro Baptists plan to picket the funerals of those who were murdered yesterday.

I may start drinking very early today.

272

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:34:49am

Good read about recent arguments made regarding political rhetoric and the magical balance fairy: [Link: digbysblog.blogspot.com...]

273

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:34:53am

CNN is reporting they have "a second person" in custody but haven't said it's the same guy on the camera picture. They also know where Jared bought the gun, at a local gun shop last November. They also discovered another magazine which had 30 rounds that he didn't get to fire.

274

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:35:08am

I was listening to a gardening show on am radio the other day and some woman was complaining about planting some seeds on a sloping hill and then she made a reference to a "pre-emptive" strike on the soil. I was like WTF you can't escape the war mongering language even on a gardening show.

275

jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:35:18am

re: #267 BigPapa

We have to keep reminding them, when that rhetoric is used, that it's lazy thinking to imagine push button, pull-trigger solutions. There's a hugely greater proportion of toil and sweat relative to blood and tears in getting things done.

276

Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:35:26am

re: #269 ralphieboy

Modern Conservatism is not about personal liberties: on one hand, it is about letting corporations do whatever they want without government interference.

Corporate Liberalism?

277

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:36:09am

re: #269 ralphieboy

Modern Conservatism is not about personal liberties: on one hand, it is about letting corporations do whatever they want without government interference.

The other side of Modern Conservatism is about bringing America's laws into line with their idea of God's Law, which seeks to restrict a lot of the freedoms we have in this country.

Modern, as opposed to what?....conservatism doesn't change, the people that call themselves conservatives do...otherwise anything could be labeled whatever you want at any point...that's just chaos...there is no Modern Conservatism

278

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:36:12am

Jared Lee Loughner’s rants about grammar and mind control track closely to the writings of a conspiracy theorist who believes that is how the government controls the populace, one leading group says – and the man tells POLITICO he agrees with some of Loughner’s statements.
The far-right activist, David Wynn Miller, said in a telephone interview that he didn’t know Loughner, but agreed with his statement in a YouTube video that “the government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar.”

“Absolutely I would agree with it,” said Miller, 62, a former tool-and-die maker from Milwaukee who claims 1 billion “students” worldwide.

But he said any suggestion that his writings influenced Loughner to go on a shooting rampage is “ridiculous.”

Read the whole thing…

279

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:36:38am

re: #276 BigPapa

Corporate Liberalism?

And who ever said "Liberalism" had to be a bad word? You just have to apply it in the right places...

280

Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:36:47am

re: #275 jaunte

We have to keep reminding them, when that rhetoric is used, that it's lazy thinking to imagine push button, pull-trigger solutions. There's a hugely greater proportion of toil and sweat relative to blood and tears in getting things done.

I agree that it will need to be a sustained war of attrition.

But there I go using warfare analogy.

281

Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:38:06am

Then I should've said "present-day conservatism"...

282

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:38:27am

re: #273 marjoriemoon

CNN is reporting they have "a second person" in custody but haven't said it's the same guy on the camera picture. They also know where Jared bought the gun, at a local gun shop last November. They also discovered another magazine which had 30 rounds that he didn't get to fire.

Did they say if he registered the gun?

283

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:38:45am

re: #141 Charles

I'm so weary of these absurd attempts to equate the rhetoric "from both sides." It's NOT the same. Right wing rhetoric has been completely demented since Obama was elected.

Thank you! All this nonsense about equivalence on both sides is tiring. What has been going on since Obama was elected is beyond the pale.

We've all noticed it and have commented on it for ages around here. Why is it suddenly less of an issue now that someone's actually been shot? You'd think we'd be more concerned about the heated rhetoric from the right and from the teabaggers, not trying to minimize it.

284

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:39:11am

anybody know of any video websites similar to American Experience?...a place I can watch history or science vids?....btw AE has a cool vid up about Sea Bisquit, one hell of a story

285

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:39:20am

BoingBoing offers an evergreen sort of perspective of humility: Why the [shootings] Mean That We Must Support My Politics

286

charlz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:39:31am

re: #274 Amory Blaine

I was like WTF you can't escape the war mongering language even on a gardening show.

apparently you've never tried to eradicate bamboo.

287

Obdicut Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:40:21am

re: #273 marjoriemoon

They also discovered another magazine which had 30 rounds that he didn't get to fire.

I'm so glad that people had the bravery to tackle him. He could have fired another thirty shots, killed who knows how many more people.

288

KingKenrod Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:40:26am

re: #245 Slumbering Behemoth

The more I hear about this mass murderer, the more I get to thinking that even he doesn't know what his political ideologies are.

It's too early to say for sure he was involved with or influenced by hate rhetoric. But there are signs - his obsession with new currency, the unconstitutionality of police & government, and his comment in a class that a woman who had an abortion was like a terrorist. These are radical right-wing positions. But I think its too early to talk about Palin, Beck, etc as being culpable. There will plenty of time to hold the guilty accountable once we know more. Complaining about it now seems too opportunistic to me since we don't know much.

289

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:40:48am

re: #152 Renaissance_Man

Kurtz isn't calling for more responsible rhetoric. He's saying, 'The fact that a Democrat was shot in cold blood after two-plus years of violent, anti-government rhetoric and repeated episodes of violence in the same anti-government vein has nothing to do with the anti-government rhetoric. And if you evil liberals would just stop pushing your political agenda and destroying America, we wouldn't have any of these problems. You liberals have only yourselves to blame.'

Exactly. He's blaming the victim. It's abhorrent.

290

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:41:05am

re: #281 ralphieboy

Then I should've said "present-day conservatism"...

I get you, just chiming in....I'm appalled where conservatives are taking this ideology....bastardizing it into something it isn't and I resist to the last

291

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:41:41am

re: #268 Gus 802

There's an obvious political bent to his words. However, his past history and the fact that he targeted a large group of people indicates to me that there is far more at play here than mere political ideals. He seems to be largely motivated by his own devious and deranged thoughts. People like this are known to be easily influenced by outside stimulation. We are in the end looking at multiple factors here.

There is only one factor.. the Palin/Beck Effect.

292

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:42:43am

re: #291 Walter L. Newton

There is only one factor.. the Palin/Beck Effect.

Look! Look into my eyes! You are getting sleepy...

293

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:42:45am

re: #282 Cannadian Club Akbar

Did they say if he registered the gun?

can't leave the shop until you're checked for felonies/warrants and the gun is registered....in most states anyway, it's nearly universal...that's the loophole with gun shows

294

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:42:57am

re: #282 Cannadian Club Akbar

Did they say if he registered the gun?

No, they didn't. Can you purchase a gun without registering it?

295

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:43:37am

re: #278 000G

Read the whole thing…

Are there any "far-left activists" that believe in the government mind control conspiracy theory?

296

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:44:27am

re: #287 Obdicut

I'm so glad that people had the bravery to tackle him. He could have fired another thirty shots, killed who knows how many more people.

They said something about the magazine, that it was jammed? Or something about the pin? I don't know much about guns, but that it wasn't able to be fired. They weren't terribly clear on that.

297

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:45:08am

re: #291 Walter L. Newton

There is only one factor.. the Palin/Beck Effect.

you are relaxed, you are feeling sleepy...

298

Semper Fi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:45:20am

re: #262 Slumbering Behemoth

Six dead and fourteen wounded, so it seems pretty likely to me.

News update just a moment ago said Giffords was conscious and able to follow simple commands.
I'm going all the way with my prayer for complete recovery.

299

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:45:27am

(Reuters) - General Motors Co (GM.N) is in the running for up to $10 billion in government loans to produce fuel efficient cars, and accepting the money would make sense even if it adds debt and new financial ties to Washington.re: #295 Gus 802

Are there any "far-left activists" that believe in the government mind control conspiracy theory?

Dunno, haven't been following up on Foucault.

///

300

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:45:37am

re: #297 albusteve

bah..I'm behinder again

301

Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:45:39am

re: #279 ralphieboy

And who ever said "Liberalism" had to be a bad word? You just have to apply it in the right places...

Yah, I was just playing with it. However you do make me think of something else.

The precursor to the more violent rhetoric was turning otherwise practical terms like 'liberal' into a pejorative. That started (at least for me) 20 years ago listening to winger radio. After a while it gets beat into people.

If 'liberals' are so evil, and want to destroy America, and we're at war with them.... any kook can apply the last thought into the progression.

302

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:46:08am

re: #294 marjoriemoon

No, they didn't. Can you purchase a gun without registering it?

at a gun show

303

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:46:14am

re: #296 marjoriemoon

They said something about the magazine, that it was jammed? Or something about the pin? I don't know much about guns, but that it wasn't able to be fired. They weren't terribly clear on that.

I read this morning, on CNN I think (don't have a link), that he was tackled as he was reloading.

304

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:46:20am

re: #288 KingKenrod

Considering the horrific nature of this event, I am not comfortable with speculating on any of it. That he is disturbed to the extreme is a given. Everything else about him and his motives will come out in the investigation.

This is just so sad:

9-Year-Old Victim Was a 9/11 Baby, a ‘Face of Hope’

305

Big Joe Ghazi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:46:45am

MSNBC is saying authorities have contacted the person of interest in yesterday's shootings and they say he was just shopping at the Safeway store and is not a suspect.

306

makeitstop Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:47:19am

re: #283 Lidane

Thank you! All this nonsense about equivalence on both sides is tiring. What has been going on since Obama was elected is beyond the pale.

We've all noticed it and have commented on it for ages around here. Why is it suddenly less of an issue now that someone's actually been shot? You'd think we'd be more concerned about the heated rhetoric from the right and from the teabaggers, not trying to minimize it.

Protecting their cash cow, so to speak. Republicans cannot win elections without dog whistles and divisive rhetoric, and they know it.

Take that away from them and it would be a non-stop ass-kicking from Democrats as far as the eye could see.

307

funky chicken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:47:25am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Instapundit is on quite a run this morning. He's now hinting that this is another crisis created by the left for Obama to exploit...

Hmm.

It's an inside job!

I'm kinda curious--what was the first manufactured crisis? The Ft. Hood shootings? Do they really think Hasan was a product of the far left?

So 9/11 was an inside job of the far right to give Bush a crisis to respond to?

Nuts.

308

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:47:30am

re: #293 albusteve

can't leave the shop until you're checked for felonies/warrants and the gun is registered...in most states anyway, it's nearly universal...that's the loophole with gun shows

He did have some kind of criminal record, but no one said if it was a felony.

There's got to be a way to keep guns out of hands of deranged people. Send records of these people to gun store owners? Pima CC said they wouldn't let him back in school until he received a clean mental health exam so they knew something was wrong. I don't know.

309

zora Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:47:45am

re: #278 000G

from link:

Miller “claims to have invented truth language,” Potok said in an interview with POLITICO. “His idea is that if you only use the correct grammar and punctuation, you can throw off the shackles of the tyrannical government.”

sheds some light on loughner's ramblings about most people in his district being illiterate. i guess it's because they don't know the truth language. btw, i never heard of this nonsense (grammar mind control) before.

310

KingKenrod Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:48:15am

re: #295 Gus 802

Are there any "far-left activists" that believe in the government mind control conspiracy theory?

Cynthia McKinney did, right?

311

[deleted] Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:48:45am

312

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:48:52am

re: #308 marjoriemoon

IIRC, UVA had problems with the mental health of the shooter there before he bought weapons.

313

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:48:59am

re: #309 zora

from link:

sheds some light on loughner's ramblings about most people in his district being illiterate. i guess it's because they don't know the truth language. btw, i never heard of this nonsense (grammar mind control) before.

Me neither. Even Millers Wikipedia bio is insane gobbledeegook. Kind of Jacques Lacan on a bad acid trip.

314

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:49:04am

re: #302 albusteve

at a gun show

But I think you have to register there too, now, no? Rather you have to clear a background and felony check first before they give you the gun.

315

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:49:18am

re: #303 CuriousLurker

I read this morning, on CNN I think (don't have a link), that he was tackled as he was reloading.

Ah ok.

316

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:51:27am

re: #312 Cannadian Club Akbar

IIRC, UVA had problems with the mental health of the shooter there before he bought weapons.

I thought it was Pima Community College, but in any event, yea. I don't think they're obligated to let gun store owners know about these people, but maybe they should.

317

allegro Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:52:23am

re: #308 marjoriemoon

There's got to be a way to keep guns out of hands of deranged people. Send records of these people to gun store owners? Pima CC said they wouldn't let him back in school until he received a clean mental health exam so they knew something was wrong. I don't know.

I also saw that he was rejected for enlistment into the Army. Considering the lowered standards for acceptance in the past few years, that says something. Yet he can legally purchase a gun?

318

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:52:32am

re: #299 000G

Dunno, haven't been following up on Foucault.

///

Actually the answer to my question was yes. I think that Politico article you linked to had an obvious point to make. There are people that believe in government mind control conspiracy theories that are on both ends of the political spectrum. The article instead make the logical leap from a) mind control to b) far-right conspiracy theorist to c) an SPLC assessment.

319

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:52:48am

re: #314 marjoriemoon

But I think you have to register there too, now, no? Rather you have to clear a background and felony check first before they give you the gun.

A good 10+ years ago, a former acquaintance of mine purchased a gun at a gun show here in CA. Paid money up front at the show, then had to wait the legal period of time before picking it up at a local dealer. Every thing was done "above board".

YMMV

320

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:53:24am

re: #316 marjoriemoon

I thought it was Pima Community College, but in any event, yea. I don't think they're obligated to let gun store owners know about these people, but maybe they should.

I was talking about a previous shooting. The University of Virginia shooter. And to add to your point about mental health problems, where does HIPPA start and end?

321

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:53:31am

re: #307 funky chicken

I'm kinda curious--what was the first manufactured crisis?

You'd have to go way back for that answer. Some folks will seriously look you in the eye and tell you that Lincoln getting killed was an inside job to gain sympathy for the Union cause.

Conspiracy theories about false flags aren't new. That's why it's not shocking to see wingnuts try to say that teh libruls shot one of their own to make the right look bad.

322

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:53:46am

re: #317 allegro

I also saw that he was rejected for enlistment into the Army. Considering the lowered standards for acceptance in the past few years, that says something. Yet he can legally purchase a gun?

I know these cases aren't all that common, but considering how many died and were injured, the VA Tech shooter, etc. it would seem to be a good idea to alert gun shops.

323

funky chicken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:54:04am

re: #58 Killgore Trout

he was whining to Fox News today as well...
American Renaissance Denies DHS Charges, Any Affiliation With Shooter

They actually let this guy appear on their network? Yuck.

324

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:55:26am

re: #319 Slumbering Behemoth

A good 10+ years ago, a former acquaintance of mine purchased a gun at a gun show here in CA. Paid money up front at the show, then had to wait the legal period of time before picking it up at a local dealer. Every thing was done "above board".

YMMV

My brother in CA recently took his daughter to a gun show. She's into ComicCon and wanted to buy a sword for her outfit. We're really not gun people! But he took her and was telling me about the experience. And yes, you couldn't walk out of there with a gun as you said.

325

tradewind Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:55:54am

re: #320 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think that was the Hokies, not the Cavs.
Could be wrong.

326

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:56:30am

re: #320 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was talking about a previous shooting. The University of Virginia shooter. And to add to your point about mental health problems, where does HIPPA start and end?

Yes, HIPPA. I didn't think about that, but it's certainly a safety issue.

327

Semper Fi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:56:36am

Have a nice day all. Gotta warm up for game 2. Loosen my arm and go over the game plan. We're at the Eagles today. That's big trouble.

328

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:57:29am

re: #325 tradewind

I think that was the Hokies, not the Cavs.
Could be wrong.

Either way, the crazy guy from Virginia.

329

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:58:09am

So much for Caribou Barbie's excuses that they weren't bullseyes on her map:

[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]

One of these days, maybe these idiot pols will learn that everything they post on Twitter or Facebook or anywhere else is being archived by others, so erasing posts or issuing denials is pointless.

330

blueraven Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:58:19am

re: #314 marjoriemoon

But I think you have to register there too, now, no? Rather you have to clear a background and felony check first before they give you the gun.

I think the problem is the different classification of gun sellers at gun shows and what is required.

U.S. federal law requires persons engaged in interstate firearm commerce, or those who are "engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, to hold a Federal Firearms License and perform background checks through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System maintained by the FBI prior to transferring a firearm. Under the terms of the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, however, individuals "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, or who only make "occasional" sales within their state of residence, are under no requirement to conduct background checks on purchasers or maintain records of sale (although even private sellers are forbidden under federal law from selling firearms to persons they have reason to believe are felons or otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms)...

Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Five states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner.[14][15]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

331

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:58:22am

re: #318 Gus 802

Dunno, haven't been following up on Foucault.

///

Actually the answer to my question was yes. I think that Politico article you linked to had an obvious point to make. There are people that believe in government mind control conspiracy theories that are on both ends of the political spectrum. The article instead make the logical leap from a) mind control to b) far-right conspiracy theorist to c) an SPLC assessment.

Huh? I didn't see anything in the Politico article that suggested that "[t]here are people that believe in government mind control conspiracy theories that are on both ends of the political spectrum." Care to point the passage of the article out to me that supports your assertion?

Or did you mean that the Politico article failed to make that assertion (that you imply to be correct) and instead went with SPLC assessment? Then, still, I think you should back up your claim that "[t]here are people that believe in government mind control conspiracy theories that are on both ends of the political spectrum" and also point out how that would be applicable in the case of Loughner and his videos (I think the connection from Miller's "theories" to Loughner's ramblings is pretty obvious).

Btw, why do you keep asking me rhetorical questions?

332

tradewind Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:58:41am

re: #308 marjoriemoon
I don't really think it's a stretch to say that perhaps every time there's a disturbed student or employee on an institution's record, they fwd it to the Secret Service so they can use these records in their pre-checks of crowds where public officials will be speaking.
Not practical for things such as ' Congress on the Corner ', but still, could be utilized by local officials as well.
The old pound-of-prevention/preemption thing.

333

KingKenrod Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:59:01am

re: #305 mracb

MSNBC is saying authorities have contacted the person of interest in yesterday's shootings and they say he was just shopping at the Safeway store and is not a suspect.

That's good to hear. An organized hit or conspiracy would be a total game-changer. It's bad enough as it is.

334

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:59:19am

re: #327 Semper Fi

Have a nice day all. Gotta warm up for game 2. Loosen my arm and go over the game plan. We're at the Eagles today. That's big trouble.

It's not your team and you are not playing and you have no control over the outcome. Geeeesssshhhhh...

335

allegro Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:59:33am

re: #322 marjoriemoon

I know these cases aren't all that common, but considering how many died and were injured, the VA Tech shooter, etc. it would seem to be a good idea to alert gun shops.

CCA's HIPPA point is very valid. We do need to have our medical histories diligently protected, maybe especially mental and emotional disorders that could prevent one from getting employment even when the mental issue wouldn't cause any problems for job performance.

And yet... this is a tough one, eh?

336

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:59:35am

re: #331 000G

Huh? I didn't see anything in the Politico article that suggested that "[t]here are people that believe in government mind control conspiracy theories that are on both ends of the political spectrum." Care to point the passage of the article out to me that supports your assertion?

Or did you mean that the Politico article failed to make that assertion (that you imply to be correct) and instead went with SPLC assessment? Then, still, I think you should back up your claim that "[t]here are people that believe in government mind control conspiracy theories that are on both ends of the political spectrum" and also point out how that would be applicable in the case of Loughner and his videos (I think the connection from Miller's "theories" to Loughner's ramblings is pretty obvious).

Btw, why do you keep asking me rhetorical questions?

Oh. Never mind. Forget I even said anything.

337

Tricho Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:59:37am

Hello all.

I have reviewed Loughner's YouTube channel. I believe it is likely that he will be diagnosed as schizophrenic, a mixture of the paranoid and disorganized types. Media accounts of his history are consistent with the typical presentation and development of schizophrenia, with a prodromal period in the late teens that blossoms into florid psychosis in the early twenties. The writing on his YouTube videos is a textbook example of schoizophasia, the hallmark of the thought disorder characteristic of the disorganized types of schizophrenia. Media accounts also tell of his "nonsensical outbursts" (schizophasia) in classes at Pima Community College, and his social isolation, which is another key sign of schizophrenia.

People with untreated schizophrenia live in a bizarre world that is incomprehensible a healthy person. To attribute his motivations to a political ideology is to misunderstand how far a untreated schizophrenic's thought process is from a "normal" person's.

On the other hand, his nonsensical musings include references to currency and gold, which could point to a malign influence of the type some of you have been speculating about. If he is as ill as I believe him to be, he would be easily manipulable by a sufficiently evil person into committing the atrocious acts he is accused of, by "humoring" him in his delusions, and suggesting the course of action he should take- "Yes Jared, you are so right! You have opened my eyes to the control of grammar that is stealing our souls! You should go buy a gun and shoot Gabrielle Giffords- she is going to be at the Safeway down the street next week. Then we can all become literate treasurers of our own currencies and conscience dream all the time!" I'm sure the FBI will locate the person of interest they are looking for, and then we will have a better idea whether this is the case or not.

By the way, there is no such thing as "stomach flu". Influenza is a respiratory virus. Viral gastroenteritis is usually caused by a norovirus or rotavirus.

338

tradewind Sun, Jan 9, 2011 11:59:59am

re: #333 KingKenrod
Rats. Back to the drawing board for the ' find the tea party mentor dude ' crowd.//

339

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:00:04pm

re: #336 Gus 802

Oh. Never mind. Forget I even said anything.

Okay.

340

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:00:27pm

Sarah Palin!

341

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:00:27pm

Several lawmakers are already changing their security arrangements in wake of the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.), and at least two lawmakers say they’ll now be packing firearms in public when they’re in their home districts.
Both Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah) and Rep. Heath Shuler (D-N.C.) both told POLITICO they will be carrying their guns in their home districts for protection. Both lawmakers hold a conceal and carry permit, but will not carry their weapons in the District of Columbia.

[Link: www.politico.com...]

342

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:00:28pm

re: #270 Lidane

Of course they do. If they spin it into a librul plant or conspiracy, they aren't responsible for anything they've been saying for the past two years.

Exactly, the point here is not that Palin, et al. put a gun in Loughner's hand. We may never know whether/how much the shooter was influenced by right wing talkers. The point is that the right wing self-pity talkfest has created an overcharged climate of hysteria and hyperbolic rhetoric. So even if it didn't influence this guy, it has the potential to influence other wackos. Words have consequences, especially when they're freighted with fear, anger and talk of enemies within.

343

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:00:38pm

re: #330 blueraven

I think the problem is the different classification of gun sellers at gun shows and what is required.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Wow. Thanks for that. I was commenting yesterday about Arizona's liberal gun laws, so there you have it.

344

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:01:00pm

re: #331 000G

Huh? I didn't see anything in the Politico article that suggested that "[t]here are people that believe in government mind control conspiracy theories that are on both ends of the political spectrum." Care to point the passage of the article out to me that supports your assertion?

Or did you mean that the Politico article failed to make that assertion (that you imply to be correct) and instead went with SPLC assessment? Then, still, I think you should back up your claim that "[t]here are people that believe in government mind control conspiracy theories that are on both ends of the political spectrum" and also point out how that would be applicable in the case of Loughner and his videos (I think the connection from Miller's "theories" to Loughner's ramblings is pretty obvious).

Btw, why do you keep asking me rhetorical questions?

Why do you want to know?

345

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:01:14pm

re: #324 marjoriemoon

My brother in CA recently took his daughter to a gun show. She's into ComicCon and wanted to buy a sword for her outfit. We're really not gun people! But he took her and was telling me about the experience. And yes, you couldn't walk out of there with a gun as you said.

That's not what I meant to say. You could pay for a gun there, but not walk out with it. You still have to pass the background check and wait out the waiting period.

Like I said, my former acquaintance paid for the gun at the show, but had to wait the legal amount of time to then pick it up at a local dealer later.

346

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:01:19pm

re: #344 Walter L. Newton

Why do you want to know?

Who wants to know?

347

tradewind Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:01:32pm

re: #337 Tricho
I got pounded for that speculation yesterday, but yeah.
Stand by for incoming.

348

Semper Fi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:01:50pm

re: #334 Walter L. Newton

It's not your team and you are not playing and you have no control over the outcome. Geeessshhh...

But it's pretty intense anyway... LOL

349

tradewind Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:02:23pm

re: #340 Gus 802
Really, shouldn't her rent be raised?

350

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:02:54pm

Well. I can see that the agenda has taken over. No room for skepticism or free thought. Clearly everything points to the right-wing.

351

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:04:04pm

re: #332 tradewind

I don't really think it's a stretch to say that perhaps every time there's a disturbed student or employee on an institution's record, they fwd it to the Secret Service so they can use these records in their pre-checks of crowds where public officials will be speaking.
Not practical for things such as ' Congress on the Corner ', but still, could be utilized by local officials as well.
The old pound-of-prevention/preemption thing.

Debbie Wasserman-Schultz (Florida Congresswoman and all around terrific lady) was on Meet the Press this morning and commented that she doesn't do open rallies likes this. She also has some kind of police presence at her rallies. She speaks from inside buildings with a podium. I think that's wise and still gives you accessibility to your constituents.

Not sure you can really pre-check crowds coming to rallies, but certainly letting the FBI know about potentially dangerous people may be a good idea.

352

Mardukhai Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:04:11pm

Charles --

There is no such thing as "stomach flu" -- the so-called 24-hour bug is actually food poisoning. It's always caused by something you ate, most likely contaminated with bacteria.

Empty your frig of perishables, and figure out which salad bar to avoid in the future.

353

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:04:12pm

re: #347 tradewind

I seem to recall your speculation involving alcohol poisoning and weed making the shooter crazy. That's what you got pounded for, IIRC.

354

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:04:53pm

re: #335 allegro

CCA's HIPPA point is very valid. We do need to have our medical histories diligently protected, maybe especially mental and emotional disorders that could prevent one from getting employment even when the mental issue wouldn't cause any problems for job performance.

And yet... this is a tough one, eh?

It sure is, but it's a good discussion to have, I think.

355

Cannadian Club Akbar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:05:22pm

Alrighty, gotta run for now. See ya'll soon.

356

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:06:17pm

re: #314 marjoriemoon

But I think you have to register there too, now, no? Rather you have to clear a background and felony check first before they give you the gun.

in many states you just walk away with the piece....another bad thing that needs to be fixed

357

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:06:20pm

re: #345 Slumbering Behemoth

That's not what I meant to say. You could pay for a gun there, but not walk out with it. You still have to pass the background check and wait out the waiting period.

Like I said, my former acquaintance paid for the gun at the show, but had to wait the legal amount of time to then pick it up at a local dealer later.

I think I was agreeing with you, or attempting to :)

358

blueraven Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:06:59pm

re: #343 marjoriemoon

Wow. Thanks for that. I was commenting yesterday about Arizona's liberal gun laws, so there you have it.

It is a huge problem. The gun show loophole needs to be closed.

359

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:07:01pm

There is also a clear attempt to deflect from the fact that extreme rhetoric has consequences.
"2nd amendment remedies"
This is what it looks like. Blood and death.

360

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:07:52pm

re: #337 Tricho

Hello all.

I have reviewed Loughner's YouTube channel. I believe it is likely that he will be diagnosed as schizophrenic, a mixture of the paranoid and disorganized types. Media accounts of his history are consistent with the typical presentation and development of schizophrenia, with a prodromal period in the late teens that blossoms into florid psychosis in the early twenties. The writing on his YouTube videos is a textbook example of schoizophasia, the hallmark of the thought disorder characteristic of the disorganized types of schizophrenia. Media accounts also tell of his "nonsensical outbursts" (schizophasia) in classes at Pima Community College, and his social isolation, which is another key sign of schizophrenia.

People with untreated schizophrenia live in a bizarre world that is incomprehensible a healthy person. To attribute his motivations to a political ideology is to misunderstand how far a untreated schizophrenic's thought process is from a "normal" person's.

On the other hand, his nonsensical musings include references to currency and gold, which could point to a malign influence of the type some of you have been speculating about. If he is as ill as I believe him to be, he would be easily manipulable by a sufficiently evil person into committing the atrocious acts he is accused of, by "humoring" him in his delusions, and suggesting the course of action he should take- "Yes Jared, you are so right! You have opened my eyes to the control of grammar that is stealing our souls! You should go buy a gun and shoot Gabrielle Giffords- she is going to be at the Safeway down the street next week. Then we can all become literate treasurers of our own currencies and conscience dream all the time!" I'm sure the FBI will locate the person of interest they are looking for, and then we will have a better idea whether this is the case or not.

By the way, there is no such thing as "stomach flu". Influenza is a respiratory virus. Viral gastroenteritis is usually caused by a norovirus or rotavirus.

I believe you cannot diagnose schizophrenia with any accuracy without some extended observation and evaluation of the person themselves.

So far, there is nothing in his writings and ravings that indicate that "someone" (an internal voice) was guiding him in any way.

It's possible that an external voice, as you suggest, could have motivated him, then again, that voice wouldn't have to be someone he knew personally... there has been enough rhetoric in the political arena to give him support.

Schizophrenia... I think it's too early to suggest that. So far, what we actually know, the symptoms we can easily see, can fit a number of conditions in the DSM.

361

funky chicken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:08:04pm

re: #329 Lidane

So much for Caribou Barbie's excuses that they weren't bullseyes on her map:

[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]

One of these days, maybe these idiot pols will learn that everything they post on Twitter or Facebook or anywhere else is being archived by others, so erasing posts or issuing denials is pointless.

Yeah, I just read the stupid "they're surveyor marks!" assertion by Palin's rabid webmaster/ghostwriter woman. I think I read that this gal (name slipped my mind) took over Palin's web presence right after the election and that's when the real crazy started coming out. Combine their continued affiliation with the fact that Palin chose a personal friend of RSM to ghostwrite her book, and Palin looks like someone who reaches out to the crazy.

Too bad. She had an opportunity to be a positive force in the GOP.

This horrible event should be the end of her chances to ever be a serious factor in GOP politics ever again. It's a tiny silver lining.

362

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:08:20pm

re: #350 Gus 802

Which is why I am not speculating on any of this. Things can get weird, and I'm hanging back until more facts come to the front.

363

tradewind Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:08:47pm

re: #351 marjoriemoon
You can definitely scan 'em in a crowd, pre-checked or not. Would have been helpful to have had a picture of this guy circulated before the rally, as an area person to watch.
Thing is, this happens to judges rather frequently... twice here that I know of. Doesn't get as much attention, if they are below the federal level, but some occupations just carry a high level of risk/attraction for nutjobs.

364

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:08:50pm

re: #350 Gus 802

Well. I can see that the agenda has taken over. No room for skepticism or free thought. Clearly everything points to the right-wing.

The right wing or aliens... there's no other options.

365

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:09:28pm

re: #351 marjoriemoon

Debbie Wasserman-Schultz (Florida Congresswoman and all around terrific lady) was on Meet the Press this morning and commented that she doesn't do open rallies likes this. She also has some kind of police presence at her rallies. She speaks from inside buildings with a podium. I think that's wise and still gives you accessibility to your constituents.

Not sure you can really pre-check crowds coming to rallies, but certainly letting the FBI know about potentially dangerous people may be a good idea.

Always had a high opinion of Wasserman-Schultz. She seems like a future leader for the Dems in the House. She's got Pelosi's good qualities without most of the bad ones. And she's a better communicator.

366

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:09:29pm

I wonder how the far-right would be reacting to yesterday's tragedy if the shooter had been a mentally unstable Muslim, the cross-hairs map had been put out by Rep. Keith Ellison, and there had been constant anti-U.S. government rhetoric & references to violence coming from American Muslims.

Before anyone pounces, I'm well aware that there's no "proof" of the shooter's political affiliation (if any) and that his choice to kill was his own. I'm also aware that there are terrorists (and some American jihadi wannabees) who hate our government and wish us violence, but I'm talking about if it was daily railing, in English, coming from American Muslims with numbers of listeners/viewers on a par with Beck, Limbaugh, etc.

Just a thought exercise...

367

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:09:33pm

re: #350 Gus 802

Well. I can see that the agenda has taken over. No room for skepticism or free thought. Clearly everything points to the right-wing.

What agenda is that?

368

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:10:02pm

re: #357 marjoriemoon

I think I was agreeing with you, or attempting to :)

I think we're just confusing each other.

Quick! Pick a type of fruit you like, and we can argue about that!
/:P

369

tradewind Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:11:10pm

re: #365 palomino

She's got Pelosi's good qualities without most of the bad ones

Now If only she had her hair stylist.//

370

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:11:17pm

re: #367 Amory Blaine

What agenda is that?

Gun-toting liberal muslims?

///

371

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:12:31pm

re: #324 marjoriemoon

My brother in CA recently took his daughter to a gun show. She's into ComicCon and wanted to buy a sword for her outfit. We're really not gun people! But he took her and was telling me about the experience. And yes, you couldn't walk out of there with a gun as you said.

in other states you can...I'm certain of it

372

zora Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:12:40pm

re: #356 albusteve

in many states you just walk away with the piece...another bad thing that needs to be fixed

this is the case in va. notoriusly easy to leave a gun show with a gun with no registration and sometimes no paperwork whatsoever.

[Link: abclocal.go.com...]

Colin chose to go to the gun show there because it's just 40 minutes from his alma mater, Virginia Tech where three years ago, Colin nearly died after being shot four times by a deranged student.
32 of his classmates were killed.

Colin took Hoffer to the Roanoke gun show to honor his fallen classmates; he's fighting to close a loophole in Virginia law that makes it far too easy, he says, for criminals to buy guns.

In moments, Colin bought a 40-caliber semi-automatic handgun without even giving his name.

"You're able to walk out with a pistol, incredibly easy to hide," Hoffer said.

Yeah, that was the first gun we bought today for $470 bucks," Goddard said.

In less than an hour, he bought four guns, making sure each time to buy from the private sellers rather than licensed dealers because a loophole in Virginia law allows guns to be purchased privately without any paperwork.

"If I know it's so easy, I'm sure the person trying to bypass the background check also knows this is an easy way to do it. We need to not make it so easy," Goddard said.

373

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:12:41pm

re: #369 tradewind

Now If only she had her hair stylist.//

I think Wasserman's kinky blonde hair is sexy. Pelosi may not be a beauty like Barbara Bush, but she doesn't look bad for 70, 80, whatever she is.

374

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:13:17pm

re: #363 tradewind

You can definitely scan 'em in a crowd, pre-checked or not. Would have been helpful to have had a picture of this guy circulated before the rally, as an area person to watch.
Thing is, this happens to judges rather frequently... twice here that I know of. Doesn't get as much attention, if they are below the federal level, but some occupations just carry a high level of risk/attraction for nutjobs.

True, but then there's the added cost and what-not that surely would be argued against. I think we can do better with this, for sure, but getting Arizona to dial back on their gun laws is going to be a tough one. Especially since Gabby was pro-gun, although I don't know her stand on specific issues like waiting periods, etc.

WHEN she pulls out of this (as I know she will!) it will be interesting to see if any of her positions will change.

375

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:14:00pm

re: #365 palomino

Always had a high opinion of Wasserman-Schultz. She seems like a future leader for the Dems in the House. She's got Pelosi's good qualities without most of the bad ones. And she's a better communicator.

She's great. I've met her a few times at rallies, too.

376

Obdicut Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:14:24pm

re: #350 Gus 802

Well. I can see that the agenda has taken over. No room for skepticism or free thought. Clearly everything points to the right-wing.

There are lots of left-wing antigovernment-mindcontrol types. It's a hippy archetype.

Was that what you were asking about?

377

tradewind Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:14:31pm

re: #366 CuriousLurker

and there had been constant anti-U.S. government rhetoric & references to violence coming from American Muslim

s.
You mean like Dr Hasan......? Or Adam Gadhan?

378

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:15:27pm

re: #377 tradewind

Already covered that.

379

tradewind Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:15:39pm

re: #374 marjoriemoon

Very good news that her responding to simple commands indicates ' preservation of higher brain function '.
Go, Gabby, heal quickly with no complications. There is a lot of intercessory prayer out there for you.

380

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:15:49pm

re: #369 tradewind

Now If only she had her hair stylist.//

lol She's toned down the do a bit. She's looking better.

Don't be dissin on my Debbie!

381

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:17:01pm

gotta walk the pup, brb.

382

tradewind Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:17:13pm

re: #380 marjoriemoon
I'm sorry, but where does she still get the Dippity Do?//
(meeow).
Ah well. Unimportant in the scheme of things, for sure.

383

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:17:13pm

re: #332 tradewind

I don't really think it's a stretch to say that perhaps every time there's a disturbed student or employee on an institution's record, they fwd it to the Secret Service so they can use these records in their pre-checks of crowds where public officials will be speaking.
Not practical for things such as ' Congress on the Corner ', but still, could be utilized by local officials as well.
The old pound-of-prevention/preemption thing.

The problem with that is privacy laws. You'd need an act of Congress to implement a system like that, and its sure to face a challenge on Constitutional grounds.

384

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:17:25pm

re: #377 tradewind

s.
You mean like Dr Hasan...? Or Adam Gadhan?

Did the rhetoric of talking heads on the left influence those guys? Is the left proposing that angry Muslims used 2nd amendment remedies or start revolutions as legitimate forms of political protest? Of course not.

385

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:17:40pm

re: #350 Gus 802

Well. I can see that the agenda has taken over. No room for skepticism or free thought. Clearly everything points to the right-wing.

yeah, I'm disappointed, again...partisanship is like a disease, and I refuse to get dragged into it....of course if I counter argue against the grain, I'm a troll...but it gets very boring...I try to look at each person or event individually...it doesn't work

386

rwmofo Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:17:50pm

Tony Gwynn is fighting cancer.

Sigh.

He's one of the best ever and a top-shelf good guy. If you follow this link, there's an interview of Gwynn and Rod Carew (by Costas). I'd pay a lot to sit in the room with those two (15 batting titles between them) and just listen to any story they have to tell.

Hopefully Gwynn can beat this.

387

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:18:08pm

re: #377 tradewind

Quoting out of context like that specifically to draw on those two examples is not fair play.

388

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:18:34pm

re: #380 marjoriemoon

lol She's toned down the do a bit. She's looking better.

Don't be dissin on my Debbie!

It's a hairstyle that was really popular in the 80s when W-S grew up. Some things are hard to let go of once you get used to them. But it still looks good on her, even if a little dated.

389

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:19:03pm

re: #372 zora

this is the case in va. notoriusly easy to leave a gun show with a gun with no registration and sometimes no paperwork whatsoever.

[Link: abclocal.go.com...]

yup, thanks for that

390

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:19:34pm

re: #141 Charles

I'm so weary of these absurd attempts to equate the rhetoric "from both sides." It's NOT the same. Right wing rhetoric has been completely demented since Obama was elected.

re: #350 Gus 802

Well. I can see that the agenda has taken over. No room for skepticism or free thought. Clearly everything points to the right-wing.

We're just discussing the obvious.

391

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:19:59pm

re: #373 palomino

I think Wasserman's kinky blonde hair is sexy. Pelosi may not be a beauty like Barbara Bush, but she doesn't look bad for 70, 80, whatever she is.

Botox...it freezes you in time

392

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:20:05pm

re: #382 tradewind

I'm sorry, but where does she still get the Dippity Do?//
(meeow).
Ah well. Unimportant in the scheme of things, for sure.

As a fellow kinky-haired person, I totally feel her pain :)

Before I run out, I'm sitting here thinking, I want schools, employers, etc. to send notices to gun store owners about potential crazies while you can still walk out of a gun show in AZ with a semi-automatic. I must be nuts.

brb for realz

393

Varek Raith Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:20:46pm

Migraines suck.

394

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:21:07pm

re: #342 palomino

Words have consequences, especially when they're freighted with fear, anger and talk of enemies within.

That's the ultimate point in all this mess.

Conservatives aren't bad people. Neither are Republicans. HOWEVER, openly tolerating and encouraging the kind of violent imagery and rhetoric we've seen since Obama got elected created the kind of environment that this clearly unbalanced shooter found himself in.

No one in a position of power or responsibility has ever stepped back from any of the talk of Second Amendment remedies, trees of liberty, and revolution from within that's seized the far right since 2008. They've let that talk run rampant. Charles has documented it extensively. THAT is the problem, and it's one that is an issue in this case whether we like it or not, because Giffords was targeted by people like Palin for her views. She'd gotten threats and had her office vandalized, for fuck's sake.

This isn't about people like Palin or Beck directly whispering in this kid's ear, telling him to shoot Giffords. It's about the fact that we've allowed our political discourse to degrade so much since 2008 that politicians openly put crosshairs over the districts of political opponents, and revolutionary and violent rhetoric is openly embraced by party leadership and people who should damn well know better.

395

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:21:42pm

re: #386 rwmofo

Tony Gwynn is fighting cancer.

Sigh.

He's one of the best ever and a top-shelf good guy. If you follow this link, there's an interview of Gwynn and Rod Carew (by Costas). I'd pay a lot to sit in the room with those two (15 batting titles between them) and just listen to any story they have to tell.

Hopefully Gwynn can beat this.

bad new...one of the real good guys in the game

396

funky chicken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:22:27pm

re: #337 Tricho

And kiddie porn has no effect on pedophiles either.

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]

A 'SURVEYOR'S SYMBOL'?.... On March 22, the day before the Affordable Care Act became law, former half-term Gov. Sarah Palin (R) published a list of House Democrats with crosshairs, like that of a rifle scope, over their districts. A day later, she sent a message to "commonsense conservatives" and "lovers of America" -- it read, "Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!"
One of those crosshairs was directed to Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) who was, of course, shot yesterday, which renewed questions about Palin's political excesses. A Palin aide yesterday rejected any connection, and said the crosshairs image was unrelated to firearms.

"We never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights," [Palin staffer Rebecca Mansour] said.

"It's surveyor's symbols," the interviewer Tammy Bruce suggested. [...]

Mansour agreed. She said that the graphic was contracted out to a professional. They approved it quickly without thinking about it. "We never imagined, it never occurred to us that anybody would consider it violent," she said. Rather, she said, that it was simply "crosshairs that you would see on a map."

There is "nothing irresponsible about our graphic," she said.

The two did not discuss the fact that the image was immediately followed by Palin urging like-minded folks to "reload." Of course, everyone knows surveyors' equipment needs to be reloaded, too, right? Oh wait....

397

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:22:34pm

re: #386 rwmofo

Tony Gwynn is fighting cancer.

Sigh.

He's one of the best ever and a top-shelf good guy. If you follow this link, there's an interview of Gwynn and Rod Carew (by Costas). I'd pay a lot to sit in the room with those two (15 batting titles between them) and just listen to any story they have to tell.

Hopefully Gwynn can beat this.

Another great interview IMO was the one with Gwynn and Ted Williams. They had formed sort of a mutual admiration society. Basically each of them knew that the other was the best pure hitter of his era, and thus they had LOTS to talk about.

Gwynn could hit anybody. Even as a lefty he had success against Randy Johnson, something few lefty batters can say.

398

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:23:27pm

re: #391 albusteve

Botox...it freezes you in time

I live in California, so I know nothing about this botox you speak of.

399

Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:24:17pm

Just found out someone used my credit card to buy $600 worth of crap at Walmart, got to deal with the bank now.

400

Renaissance_Man Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:24:54pm

re: #394 Lidane

That's the ultimate point in all this mess.

Conservatives aren't bad people. Neither are Republicans. HOWEVER, openly tolerating and encouraging the kind of violent imagery and rhetoric we've seen since Obama got elected created the kind of environment that this clearly unbalanced shooter found himself in.

No one in a position of power or responsibility has ever stepped back from any of the talk of Second Amendment remedies, trees of liberty, and revolution from within that's seized the far right since 2008. They've let that talk run rampant. Charles has documented it extensively. THAT is the problem, and it's one that is an issue in this case whether we like it or not, because Giffords was targeted by people like Palin for her views. She'd gotten threats and had her office vandalized, for fuck's sake.

This isn't about people like Palin or Beck directly whispering in this kid's ear, telling him to shoot Giffords. It's about the fact that we've allowed our political discourse to degrade so much since 2008 that politicians openly put crosshairs over the districts of political opponents, and revolutionary and violent rhetoric is openly embraced by party leadership and people who should damn well know better.

Lalala, you're politicising the event and blaming the right for the actions of a schizophrenic lunatic, you liberals all march in lockstep with your liberal agenda, lalala...

401

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:24:56pm

re: #398 palomino

I live in California, so I know nothing about this botox you speak of.

I don't either, I made that up....but I hear it makes one a bit brittle over time

402

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:25:19pm

re: #399 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just found out someone used my credit card to buy $600 worth of crap at Walmart, got to deal with the bank now.

What a PITA. Sorry to hear that.

403

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:26:02pm

re: #394 Lidane

That's the ultimate point in all this mess.

Conservatives aren't bad people. Neither are Republicans. HOWEVER, openly tolerating and encouraging the kind of violent imagery and rhetoric we've seen since Obama got elected created the kind of environment that this clearly unbalanced shooter found himself in.

No one in a position of power or responsibility has ever stepped back from any of the talk of Second Amendment remedies, trees of liberty, and revolution from within that's seized the far right since 2008. They've let that talk run rampant. Charles has documented it extensively. THAT is the problem, and it's one that is an issue in this case whether we like it or not, because Giffords was targeted by people like Palin for her views. She'd gotten threats and had her office vandalized, for fuck's sake.

This isn't about people like Palin or Beck directly whispering in this kid's ear, telling him to shoot Giffords. It's about the fact that we've allowed our political discourse to degrade so much since 2008 that politicians openly put crosshairs over the districts of political opponents, and revolutionary and violent rhetoric is openly embraced by party leadership and people who should damn well know better.

Just as with the birther controversy, most republican leaders are reluctant to take a stand. They can read polls and see that almost 20% of the public erroneously thinks Obama is a non-citizen; and many of these are tea partiers and other right wing fantasists. So why alienate your energized base by refuting their addle-brained assumptions?

404

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:26:27pm

re: #399 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just found out someone used my credit card to buy $600 worth of crap at Walmart, got to deal with the bank now.

Man that sucks. Someone kicked my basement window in and broke two window screens trying to get in my house Friday AFTERNOON. Like 5 oclock. It wasn't even dark out.

405

KingKenrod Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:27:16pm

re: #394 Lidane

That's the ultimate point in all this mess.

Conservatives aren't bad people. Neither are Republicans. HOWEVER, openly tolerating and encouraging the kind of violent imagery and rhetoric we've seen since Obama got elected created the kind of environment that this clearly unbalanced shooter found himself in.

No one in a position of power or responsibility has ever stepped back from any of the talk of Second Amendment remedies, trees of liberty, and revolution from within that's seized the far right since 2008. They've let that talk run rampant. Charles has documented it extensively. THAT is the problem, and it's one that is an issue in this case whether we like it or not, because Giffords was targeted by people like Palin for her views. She'd gotten threats and had her office vandalized, for fuck's sake.

This isn't about people like Palin or Beck directly whispering in this kid's ear, telling him to shoot Giffords. It's about the fact that we've allowed our political discourse to degrade so much since 2008 that politicians openly put crosshairs over the districts of political opponents, and revolutionary and violent rhetoric is openly embraced by party leadership and people who should damn well know better.

It's a problem with or without Loughner. I think this rush to connect Loughner with right wing hate is premature and opportunistic, and it could backfire badly. I can just as easily see Loughner going after Jan Brewer as Giffords. It never hurts to wait for the facts.

406

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:27:44pm

re: #402 CuriousLurker

What a PITA. Sorry to hear that.

if you didn't use it Wells Fargo covers you, no questions asked...nice perk...they even called me one time after denying a 2k purchase and asked if it was mine, since my card never showed much beyond air fares or a few hundred here and there

407

Kragar Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:27:49pm

re: #402 CuriousLurker

What a PITA. Sorry to hear that.

Got the card frozen, but they instituted some kind of security codeword and won't access any records until I give it, but I haven't needed to call them for like 2 years and couldn't provide it. So I get to go into the branch tomorrow and sort it out.

408

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:28:45pm

re: #401 albusteve

I don't either, I made that up...but I hear it makes one a bit brittle over time

looks even less real than fake tits...told my wife not to get it, but it's tempting for women when they hit 40

409

TMRiddle Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:28:58pm

If the person who shot a congresswoman point-blank range turns out not to be associated in any way, shape or form with the right, does it make the suggestion that hyperbolic rhetoric incites violence any less true?

What kind of sick individual would condone placing crosshairs over something involving another human being? What kind of sick individual would permit themselves to discuss in the same breath dissatisfaction with our government and a bloody coup d'etat of it? Do we think these things aren't absurd?

When people talk about a fucking revolution to overthrow this government; when people like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh and every sick motherfucker talk about how these people in power are criminals and need to be put down like dogs, what do you think the next line is?

Do people actually think the next line is... just kidding? Ol' Rush and Glenn are just having a good time? That the people listening weren't nodding their heads, silently ceding their morality?

Putting crosshairs over someone's district is sick. It's juvenile and a country that permits such a woman to have relevance is equally sick and equally juvenile. That everyone has not condemned this woman to political irrelevance is a sign of a society filled with the very worst sort of hatred that festers in the hearts of men and demands action with violence and guns rather than reason and logic. We don't need a dead congresswoman to tell us that.

I love handguns. I own three of them. But I don't point them at anyone, I don't discussing killing people with them and I sure as fuck don't suggest or even joke about killing people in government with them. The tree of liberty needs no blood; it needs a conscience.

410

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:29:03pm

re: #403 palomino

Just as with the birther controversy, most republican leaders are reluctant to take a stand. They can read polls and see that almost 20% of the public erroneously thinks Obama is a non-citizen; and many of these are tea partiers and other right wing fantasists. So why alienate your energized base by refuting their addle-brained assumptions?

The effect of mainstreaming the fringe: Politicians will realize it to be politically unwise to condemn political lunacy, thus encouraging more mainstreaming. A vicious feedback cycle of extremism.

411

Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:29:04pm

re: #403 palomino

Just as with the birther controversy, most republican leaders are reluctant to take a stand. They can read polls and see that almost 20% of the public erroneously thinks Obama is a non-citizen; and many of these are tea partiers and other right wing fantasists. So why alienate your energized base by refuting their addle-brained assumptions?

Because doing so would be expressing liberal concepts such as leadership and integrity?

///

412

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:29:12pm

re: #406 albusteve

if you didn't use it Wells Fargo covers you, no questions asked...nice perk...they even called me one time after denying a 2k purchase and asked if it was mine, since my card never showed much beyond air fares or a few hundred here and there

Good to know. Thx.

re: #407 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Got the card frozen, but they instituted some kind of security codeword and won't access any records until I give it, but I haven't needed to call them for like 2 years and couldn't provide it. So I get to go into the branch tomorrow and sort it out.

Hope they get it sorted out quickly.

413

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:29:46pm

re: #404 Amory Blaine

Man that sucks. Someone kicked my basement window in and broke two window screens trying to get in my house Friday AFTERNOON. Like 5 oclock. It wasn't even dark out.

whoa....home invasion is a very scary prospect...the primary reason I'm armed...I treat my bunkhouse like a bunker after dark btw

414

Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:30:22pm

re: #405 KingKenrod

It's a problem with or without Loughner. I think this rush to connect Loughner with right wing hate is premature and opportunistic, and it could backfire badly. I can just as easily see Loughner going after Jan Brewer as Giffords. It never hurts to wait for the facts.

I think the rush to blame the rush to blame Loughner is every bit if not more opportunistic. Nobody here is rushing shit, we're merely speculating and it's a pretty good assumption considering the last few years.

415

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:30:40pm

re: #406 albusteve

if you didn't use it Wells Fargo covers you, no questions asked...nice perk...they even called me one time after denying a 2k purchase and asked if it was mine, since my card never showed much beyond air fares or a few hundred here and there

Same thing happened to me with them. It was a 2k charge from a charity in England.

416

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:30:59pm

re: #413 albusteve

whoa...home invasion is a very scary prospect...the primary reason I'm armed...I treat my bunkhouse like a bunker after dark btw

Get a bunch of big loud dogs. I've never felt safer.

417

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:31:23pm

re: #405 KingKenrod

It's a problem with or without Loughner. I think this rush to connect Loughner with right wing hate is premature and opportunistic, and it could backfire badly. I can just as easily see Loughner going after Jan Brewer as Giffords. It never hurts to wait for the facts.

exactly correct...and for two years little has been done to refute that shit

418

CuriousLurker Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:31:47pm

re: #404 Amory Blaine

Man that sucks. Someone kicked my basement window in and broke two window screens trying to get in my house Friday AFTERNOON. Like 5 oclock. It wasn't even dark out.

YIKES! Glad you're okay.

419

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:32:23pm

re: #404 Amory Blaine

Man that sucks. Someone kicked my basement window in and broke two window screens trying to get in my house Friday AFTERNOON. Like 5 oclock. It wasn't even dark out.

It's Bush's fault.

420

webevintage Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:32:36pm

It is snowing in Central Arkansas and cold so I made some curried peas and garbanzo beans.
Yummy and warming.

Tonight we will have chicken and dumplings.

421

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:33:12pm

re: #413 albusteve

whoa...home invasion is a very scary prospect...the primary reason I'm armed...I treat my bunkhouse like a bunker after dark btw

I didn't even call the cops. My neighborhood is very dangerous. I have my car broken into or vandalized regularly. This was scary. I guess there were like 3 people. The boy (he's 24) was sleeping. I'm getting my shit together now for security precautions.

422

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:34:02pm

re: #405 KingKenrod

It's a problem with or without Loughner. I think this rush to connect Loughner with right wing hate is premature and opportunistic, and it could backfire badly. I can just as easily see Loughner going after Jan Brewer as Giffords. It never hurts to wait for the facts.

I'd be saying the same things if this kid had gone after Brewer, or Kyl, or anyone with an (R) after their name, so to me, the ideology of the target doesn't matter at all. It's the ideology of the shooter that matters, as do the voices that played a role in reinforcing his warped beliefs and prejudices.

It's the political cesspool that has bubbled up since 2008, creating the kind of hostile, hate-filled environment that had a congresswoman from Arizona taking a bullet to the head at point blank range that's the problem.

423

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:34:30pm

re: #409 TMRiddle

If the person who shot a congresswoman point-blank range turns out not to be associated in any way, shape or form with the right, does it make the suggestion that hyperbolic rhetoric incites violence any less true?

No, I don't think it does.

Personally, I am not comfortable with speculating on this kind of thing until all the facts are in. If other people want to speculate, that's fine, but I don't think it's helpful.

424

allegro Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:34:31pm

re: #409 TMRiddle

... The tree of liberty needs no blood; it needs a conscience.

*applause*

425

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:34:50pm

re: #408 palomino

looks even less real than fake tits...told my wife not to get it, but it's tempting for women when they hit 40

women/people can be very vain...usually it's harmless enough, they just want to look good, but there is a line somewhere...a woman friend of mine was very small breasted to she finally got implants at 35 or so and it radically changed her whole gig....past that I'm no expert

426

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:35:25pm

re: #421 Amory Blaine

I didn't even call the cops. My neighborhood is very dangerous. I have my car broken into or vandalized regularly. This was scary. I guess there were like 3 people. The boy (he's 24) was sleeping. I'm getting my shit together now for security precautions.

When I say I didn't call the cops is because it really doesn't make a difference. Nothing was stolen, just vandalized so it won't even matter for insurance as I'm not declaring it.

I used to report everything just so it would go into crime data and stuff but it's more hassle than it's worth and I never feel satisfaction from calling the cops.

427

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:35:44pm

re: #416 palomino

Get a bunch of big loud dogs. I've never felt safer.

A gun is much less expensive and requires less attention. Even if you practice every week, it takes up less time. If you're a dog lover, then by all means get a dog. But it's not a good option for Steve right now: He's using an artificial leg and a big dog has to be walked.

428

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:36:11pm

re: #416 palomino

Get a bunch of big loud dogs. I've never felt safer.

my laundry girls are pretty noisy

429

KingKenrod Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:36:12pm

re: #414 BigPapa

I think the rush to blame the rush to blame Loughner is every bit if not more opportunistic. Nobody here is rushing shit, we're merely speculating and it's a pretty good assumption considering the last few years.

You don't think Kos saying "Mission accomplished, Sarah Palin" is rushing it?

430

allegro Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:37:15pm

re: #427 Dark_Falcon

A gun is much less expensive and requires less attention. Even if you practice every week, it takes up less time. If you're a dog lover, then by all means get a dog. But it's not a good option for Steve right now: He's using an artificial leg and a big dog has to be walked.

A service dog could be a wonderful help and companion as well as protection.

431

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:37:57pm

Half of my problems are psychosomatic, the other half are not real.

432

recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:39:03pm

re: #419 Walter L. Newton

It's Bush's fault.

btw... here's your guy BoyBlue today. Think we'll see anything similar on the right today?

433

funky chicken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:39:31pm

re: #429 KingKenrod

You don't think Kos saying "Mission accomplished, Sarah Palin" is rushing it?

A 'SURVEYOR'S SYMBOL'?.... On March 22, the day before the Affordable Care Act became law, former half-term Gov. Sarah Palin (R) published a list of House Democrats with crosshairs, like that of a rifle scope, over their districts. A day later, she sent a message to "commonsense conservatives" and "lovers of America" -- it read, "Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!"

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]

434

recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:40:19pm

re: #429 KingKenrod

You don't think Kos saying "Mission accomplished, Sarah Palin" is rushing it?

Nope.

435

Lidane Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:42:06pm

Yet again, John Cole is awesome:

Want to watch a Republican freak out? Utter the following statement:

“This shooting demonstrates that we really need to tone down the violent political rhetoric.”

Then watch the freakout begin, even though there is nothing partisan or pointed about that statement. “Why are you pointing fingers? Both sides do it! Why are you blaming Sarah Palin?”

And then my personal favorite: “He was just crazy!”

No shit. You have to be crazy to walk into a crowd of people and start spraying bullets, killing a bunch of elderly people and a little kid. That is crazy.

The point we have been trying to make for the last couple of years is that Republicans need to stop whipping up crazy people with violent political rhetoric. This is really not a hard concept to follow. There are crazy people out there. Stop egging them on.

[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]

436

Kronocide Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:42:13pm

re: #429 KingKenrod

You don't think Kos saying "Mission accomplished, Sarah Palin" is rushing it?

I wasn't speaking of Kos but don't like what he did.

437

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:42:25pm

re: #432 recusancy

btw... here's your guy BoyBlue today. Think we'll see anything similar on the right today?

First off, not my guy... I got the link from NPR... secondly, I posted it to show there is rhetoric available from both side's.. thirdly, no I don't think you are going to hear too many people on the right apologizing for extreme rhetoric.

For some fucking reason, as long as you have been hanging around here, you keep mistaking me for some wingnut.

Get smart.

438

TMRiddle Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:44:02pm

re: #423 Slumbering Behemoth

I agree that it is early and we should permit the authorities to do their job in determining what lead a young man to take the lives of six, possibly seven, people. What I am merely saying is that my convictions concerning this will not change, regardless. Sarah Palin is a sick individual, influential with her words and her actions and there are many people who just don't get it. That we can make a point in this country without calling into question whether another person deserves to live.

439

Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:44:04pm

Fox News: Arizona Suspected Gunman Passed FBI Background Check

New details emerging about the suspected shooter behind Saturday's deadly rampage reveal a 22-year-old man with a troubled past who law enforcement say may have been influenced by American Renaissance, a pro-white publication.

I guess that's one way to put it.

440

recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:44:08pm

re: #437 Walter L. Newton

First off, not my guy... I got the link from NPR... secondly, I posted it to show there is rhetoric available from both side's.. thirdly, no I don't think you are going to hear too many people on the right apologizing for extreme rhetoric.

For some fucking reason, as long as you have been hanging around here, you keep mistaking me for some wingnut.

Get smart.

Well... There is stuff like this. That's pretty wing nutty.

441

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:45:09pm

re: #440 recusancy

Well... There is stuff like this. That's pretty wing nutty.

Walter is from the Radical Carny wing of the political spectrum.

442

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:45:32pm

re: #427 Dark_Falcon

A gun is much less expensive and requires less attention. Even if you practice every week, it takes up less time. If you're a dog lover, then by all means get a dog. But it's not a good option for Steve right now: He's using an artificial leg and a big dog has to be walked.

it will be months before I get a leg...I have one leg and a severely chopped up stump...plus my Stoeger

443

Stanghazi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:45:41pm

re: #432 recusancy

btw... here's your guy BoyBlue today. Think we'll see anything similar on the right today?

No, we are reading about surveyors marks or some other bullshit.

444

Fozzie Bear Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:46:47pm

re: #439 Killgore Trout

Fox News: Arizona Suspected Gunman Passed FBI Background Check

I guess that's one way to put it.

I'd say they are just a tad more than merely "pro white". I'm continually amazed at Fox and the willingness to spin EVERYTHING. It's like there is no floor there, no limit to how low they go.

445

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:47:17pm

re: #438 TMRiddle

I absolutely agree with you that the rhetoric is reaching deplorable and potentially dangerous levels.

446

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:47:30pm

re: #431 Walter L. Newton

Half of my problems are psychosomatic, the other half are not real.

therefore, nothing is your fault!....crazy people are not responsible, everybody knows that

447

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:48:17pm

re: #439 Killgore Trout

Fox News: Arizona Suspected Gunman Passed FBI Background Check

I guess that's one way to put it.

Well, it's a reasonable article, which is often not the case with Fox. It mentions his ties to AmRes and does properly quote the SPLC on the nature of AmRes. And the fact that this guy passed a background check does tell us that he bought the gun legally and without loophole.

448

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:50:16pm

re: #440 recusancy

Well... There is stuff like this. That's pretty wing nutty.

I dislike all politicians and their parties equally...you presume too much from a short exchange...nice fu tho, you keep an archive on me and Walter?

449

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:51:13pm

re: #443 Stanley Sea

No, we are reading about surveyors marks or some other bullshit.

pathetic isn't it?....so childish

450

recusancy Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:51:37pm

re: #448 albusteve

I dislike all politicians and their parties equally...you presume too much from a short exchange...nice fu tho, you keep an archive on me and Walter?

Haha.. No i wanted to find out why someone yesterday said Oliver Willis called Charles a racist and I read through the comments on that related diary. You should probably read through your own stuff. There's a lot more.

451

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:52:46pm

re: #442 albusteve

it will be months before I get a leg...I have one leg and a severely chopped up stump...plus my Stoeger

Thanks for the clarification. I was just making the point that it would be hard for you to properly care for a large dog right now.

452

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:53:38pm

re: #450 recusancy

Haha.. No i wanted to find out why someone yesterday said Oliver Willis called Charles a racist and I read through the comments on that related diary. You should probably read through your own stuff. There's a lot more.

I'm conservative...it's more personal than political by far....liberals can be first class crackpots and if so, I might have an opinion

453

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:53:41pm

re: #440 recusancy

Well... There is stuff like this. That's pretty wing nutty.

You're sarcasm meter is busted, isn't it? I've been here before 2004, I have been playing devils advocate, gadfly, smart ass and Mr. crankypants characters since day one.

Most intelligent folks here have kept up with the program, recognizing when I'm making nuance sarcastic points, satirical jabs or being downright rude. And much of what I do and say is also based on "a long con." In the sense that I tie many days, weeks or months of thought, mine and others, across multiple threads, building a narrative.

And my bottom line is not designed to get anyone to agree with me or like me.

And in between all of the back and forth, I have friends here, and we talk about such mundane topics as coffee farts and the weather.

So, I'm sorry that you haven't caught on yet, didn't mean to upset you. Actually, it's not my job to even explain it to you, but I thought I would... this one time. Try to have fun... I do.

454

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:53:46pm

Cold and snow! Colder (freezing) on Tuesday. That's January for ya'.

So. When did North Face jackets become poser gear?

455

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:54:15pm

re: #448 albusteve

I dislike all politicians and their parties equally...you presume too much from a short exchange...nice fu tho, you keep an archive on me and Walter?

I'm in his head. Poor child.

456

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:54:56pm

re: #451 Dark_Falcon

Thanks for the clarification. I was just making the point that it would be hard for you to properly care for a large dog right now.

or much else, but I can pull a trigger and operate the pump for seconds..lol

457

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:56:03pm

Burp! Got a free 5 pack of beer. One glass was broken.

458

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:56:26pm

The man whose photograph was circulated as a “person of interest” in the Tucson shootings has been cleared by the FBI.

459

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:56:33pm

re: #454 Gus 802

Cold and snow! Colder (freezing) on Tuesday. That's January for ya'.

So. When did North Face jackets become poser gear?

Explain that... I don't understand... the jacket part.

460

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:57:27pm

re: #454 Gus 802

So. When did North Face jackets become poser gear?

When non-snowboarding people who just want to stay warm started wearing them?

461

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:57:39pm

re: #459 Walter L. Newton

Explain that... I don't understand... the jacket part.

Coats.

462

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:57:42pm

re: #455 Walter L. Newton

I'm in his head. Poor child.

we are natural targets because of our style more than ideology....if people don't get it, it's because they don't want to...I try to like everyone...even you

463

Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:58:16pm

re: #444 Fozzie Bear

I'd say they are just a tad more than merely "pro white". I'm continually amazed at Fox and the willingness to spin EVERYTHING. It's like there is no floor there, no limit to how low they go.

There's no sign of bottom yet. This incident has really brought the worst out of the wingnuts. They'll hit bottom eventually. I honestly didn't think it would get this bad before turning around.

464

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:58:33pm

A U.S. Attorney has filed a five-count complaint against shooting suspect Loughner, including charges of first-degree murder.

465

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:58:49pm

re: #454 Gus 802

Cold and snow! Colder (freezing) on Tuesday. That's January for ya'.

So. When did North Face jackets become poser gear?

a bit over 50 and bone dry in ABQ...patio and tee shirt weather, for a few hours anyway...I love this climate

466

funky chicken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:59:12pm

re: #429 KingKenrod

You don't think Kos saying "Mission accomplished, Sarah Palin" is rushing it?

I do want to say that Kos is an ass, and his site has featured nasty leftist stuff, like the Joe Lieberman in blackface/whiteface crap several years ago, etc.

But even Kos didn't put pictures of rifle scopes over politicians he disagreed with, and I don't remember his ever using "2nd amendment solutions" language, either.

467

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:59:23pm

re: #461 Gus 802

Coats.

No... I know what North Face jackets are... every other customer at the supermarket is wearing one, or something from the North Face clothes line... I don't understand "poser." Poser of what?

468

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:59:25pm

re: #460 Slumbering Behemoth

When non-snowboarding people who just want to stay warm started wearing them?

In theory. But in practice it's clearly youthful symbology being utilized to fit into a peer group.

469

Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:59:33pm

re: #458 000G

from the link....

The man had been seen on video entering the Safeway with Loughner before the Saturday morning rampage.On Sunday, CNN and Fox News reported that he was a cab driver who had taken the suspect to the store

Ah, ok. Mystery solved.

470

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 12:59:55pm

re: #467 Walter L. Newton

No... I know what North Face jackets are... every other customer at the supermarket is wearing one, or something from the North Face clothes line... I don't understand "poser." Poser of what?

Really? There too. Hmmm. Must be some other kind of trend.

471

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:00:01pm

And the Baltimore Ravens have clubbed the Kansas City Chiefs 30-7. With both the 3 and 4 seeds falling this weekend, the Ravens will play the Steelers next weekend while the Jets head to Massachusetts to play the Patriots.

472

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:01:16pm

re: #470 Gus 802

Really? There too. Hmmm. Must be some other kind of trend.

Ok... maybe you are trying to toy with me... and no one toys with Walter... I asked " I don't understand "poser." Poser of what?" Was the question too hard :)

473

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:01:37pm

Ah nevermind. It's just your typical American group think at work.

474

funky chicken Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:01:56pm

re: #454 Gus 802

Cold and snow! Colder (freezing) on Tuesday. That's January for ya'.

So. When did North Face jackets become poser gear?

When jealous "true outdoorsman dudes" couldn't afford them any more?

And why did somebody in one of those searches bag on people who wear REI brand? That's the one we would buy when we lived in CO because it was warm and cheaper than the other brands.

475

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:02:28pm

re: #472 Walter L. Newton

Ok... maybe you are trying to toy with me... and no one toys with Walter... I asked " I don't understand "poser." Poser of what?" Was the question too hard :)

I'd have to go to the Urban Dictionary for a more detailed definition.

476

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:02:40pm

re: #463 Killgore Trout

There's no sign of bottom yet. This incident has really brought the worst out of the wingnuts. They'll hit bottom eventually. I honestly didn't think it would get this bad before turning around.

I concede that I didn't either...but I firmly believe it cannot sustain itself....most Americans will not stand for it, which raises the question, what is mainstream?...my conservative family do not watch much TV and have no clue, but that works both ways....they end up uninformed...it's a national problem and as a result we have AmIdol politics

477

Stanghazi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:02:41pm

Johngcole

RT @jaketapper: FBI affidavit says in shooter's safe was envelope stating "I planned ahead” and “My assassination” and "Giffords"

478

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:03:08pm

re: #464 000G

Good. That asshole should face a Federal trial. Convict him of the murders, then execute him.

479

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:04:01pm

re: #474 funky chicken

When jealous "true outdoorsman dudes" couldn't afford them any more?

And why did somebody in one of those searches bag on people who wear REI brand? That's the one we would buy when we lived in CO because it was warm and cheaper than the other brands.

Maybe. I was out there in a sweater with no gloves on. They're all dressed in coats driving around in their heated cars. Not very Earth Friendly™ or Green™ on their part.

480

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:04:49pm

re: #478 Dark_Falcon

Good. That asshole should face a Federal trial. Convict him of the murders, then execute him.

Mhm. Anti-death-penalty guy here. Just don't think a state should have that power.

481

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:05:03pm

re: #460 Slumbering Behemoth

When non-snowboarding people who just want to stay warm started wearing them?

by a $65 lift ticket, make one easy run, then sit and gossip....I know the type well, resorts are full of them wearing $500 worth of ski attire

482

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:05:54pm

re: #474 funky chicken

When jealous "true outdoorsman dudes" couldn't afford them any more?

And why did somebody in one of those searches bag on people who wear REI brand? That's the one we would buy when we lived in CO because it was warm and cheaper than the other brands.

re: #473 Gus 802

Ah nevermind. It's just your typical American group think at work.

Ok... funky cleared that up for me. I guess your saying that North Face started as a piece of professional clothing gear, for a particular audience, that of the professional outdoors person, or at least someone that actually has a real need for such specialized outer garments. But, over the years, like spandex, North Face has filter down into society, and there is a lot of posers, wearing the clothing but rarely spend any more time in the actual cold than it takes for them to walk from their car to the counter at Starbucks.

That was simple, why didn't you just say that :)

483

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:06:05pm

re: #454 Gus 802

Cold and snow! Colder (freezing) on Tuesday. That's January for ya'.

So. When did North Face jackets become poser gear?

Urban dictionary's definition for "poser" is the same as the Merriam-Webster definition for "poseur".

484

charlz Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:06:33pm

re: #472 Walter L. Newton

I don't understand "poser."

Originally it was 'poseur' Kids now use 'poser' synonymously.

485

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:07:19pm

re: #484 charlz

Originally it was 'poseur' Kids now use 'poser' synonymously.

At the same time, together, in one breath?

486

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:07:25pm

re: #482 Walter L. Newton

re: #473 Gus 802

Ok... funky cleared that up for me. I guess your saying that North Face started as a piece of professional clothing gear, for a particular audience, that of the professional outdoors person, or at least someone that actually has a real need for such specialized outer garments. But, over the years, like spandex, North Face has filter down into society, and there is a lot of posers, wearing the clothing but rarely spend any more time in the actual cold than it takes for them to walk from their car to the counter at Starbucks.

That was simple, why didn't you just say that :)

Thwack!

Apparently it's a social phenomenon.

The North Face: A Social Phenomenon

487

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:08:01pm

re: #480 000G

Mhm. Anti-death-penalty guy here. Just don't think a state should have that power.

I understand you view, but I don't agree with it.

488

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:08:01pm

re: #483 reine.de.tout

Urban dictionary's definition for "poser" is the same as the Merriam-Webster definition for "poseur".

I KNOW WHAT POSER IS... I just didn't understand how it related to a jacket... geeeesssshhhhh... I'm not stewpeed.

489

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:08:20pm

re: #488 Walter L. Newton

I KNOW WHAT POSER IS... I just didn't understand how it related to a jacket... geeessshhh... I'm not stewpeed.

LOL.

490

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:08:48pm

It's like that cheap beer "they're" all drinking. What's that brand again?

491

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:09:12pm

Pabst?

492

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:09:13pm

re: #471 Dark_Falcon

And the Baltimore Ravens have clubbed the Kansas City Chiefs 30-7. With both the 3 and 4 seeds falling this weekend, the Ravens will play the Steelers next weekend while the Jets head to Massachusetts to play the Patriots.

now comes a game...knock Vick on his ass a few times, and the Packers have the D that can do it, game over...Vick got utterly pounded last week, and in fact, all season....he has to get rid of the ball sooner and get that McCoy kid going to have a chance...the Eagles could actually lose big, but I predict a Packer win

493

Killgore Trout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:09:14pm

Cat Drumming

Youtube Video

494

CarleeCork Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:09:50pm

re: #150 jaunte

Peter Daou wrote a good piece on that here: [Link: peterdaou.com...]

Wow! Excellent piece, thanks for sharing.

495

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:10:22pm

re: #491 Gus 802

Pabst?

PBR=hipster more than "kid".

496

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:10:48pm

re: #487 Dark_Falcon

I understand you view, but I don't agree with it.

My thoughts are essentially summed up in Camus' Reflections on the Guillotine, should you ever actually want to bother. It's a good read anyhow. Camus is fantastic.

497

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:11:01pm

re: #480 000G

Mhm. Anti-death-penalty guy here. Just don't think a state should have that power.

well they do...so he has to live with that

498

KingKenrod Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:11:55pm

re: #480 000G

Mhm. Anti-death-penalty guy here. Just don't think a state should have that power.

I used to be pro-death penalty, but not anymore. I think death is often a justified punishment, but I simply don't want the burden of inflicting death to fall on the citizenry. I'm not sure you can separate revenge from justice when the decision to inflict the death penalty is made.

499

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:12:03pm

re: #495 Decatur Deb

PBR=hipster more than "kid".

Parliament cigarettes - check.
North Face jacket - check.
Vans sneakers - check.
iPhone - check.

500

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:12:05pm

If I could get in on the armchair psychology...

Not all schizophrenics are dangerous. I've known a couple homeless people who are schizophrenics living on the streets in Miami. It's such a terrible condition. They can't hold jobs or homes. Their families try to help them but often don't have the money or resources. The meds have gotten better over the years, but there still are side effects that are awful to deal with, vertigo, nausea, so they stop taking them.

One woman in particular caught my attention. She was actually highlighted on 60 Minutes or 20/20 about 15 years ago. She used to hang out in front of my building and what struck me about her was she was about my age. It hit home for me in a "there but for the grace of God go I" kinda thing. I would buy her lunch or give her money, She told me she was in an out of clinics most her adult life. Her family couldn't keep her any longer. I mean, you can't chain someone to a bed. I haven't seen her in about 5 years, but think about her from time to time.

Sociopaths, on the other hand, are a different story. They are dangerous. They have no remorse or consequence for their actions and don't believe what they do or think is wrong. From this armchair, it would seem Jared Lee fits more into this category.

501

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:12:18pm

re: #486 Gus 802

Thwack!

Apparently it's a social phenomenon.

The North Face: A Social Phenomenon

Didn't know I was fashionable. Got a nice one for 10 bucks in an Alabama army Surplus store. (My camo gortex is better, but I don't want to fit in that often.)

502

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:12:33pm

re: #497 albusteve

well they do...so he has to live with that

i c whut u did there

503

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:12:42pm

re: #484 charlz

Originally it was 'poseur' Kids now use 'poser' synonymously.

I do myself...if i don't like the way a word is spelled, I simply alter it

504

jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:12:50pm

re: #486 Gus 802
Now people are having jacket fights: [Link: www.facebook.com...]

505

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:13:17pm

re: #501 Decatur Deb

Didn't know I was fashionable. Got a nice one for 10 bucks in an Alabama army Surplus store. (My camo gortex is better, but I don't want to fit in that often.)

10 bucks? Yeah, I figured when I mentioned North Face someone here might actually wear one. ;)

506

Stanghazi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:13:58pm

re: #491 Gus 802

Pabst?

PBR as posers say.

507

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:14:10pm

re: #504 jaunte

Now people are having jacket fights: [Link: www.facebook.com...]

That's hilarious. I'm a North Face "hater"!

508

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:14:36pm

re: #505 Gus 802

10 bucks? Yeah, I figured when I mentioned North Face someone here might actually wear one. ;)

Yeah--lightweight hooded rain jacket, 2 plies.

509

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:14:54pm

re: #491 Gus 802

Pabst?

Actual conversation at the Kiata, Ross, Ohio.
Him, farmers kid
Me, rhythm guitar player on break

"I'm drinking Miller High life, what's that...is that a German beer?"
"No, PBR"
"Pee Bee Are?'
"Pabst Blue Ribbon...in a can...?"
"That's German, right?"
"Newark, I think"
"What?"
"Set's about to start, got to go."

510

jaunte Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:15:16pm

re: #507 Gus 802

I remain in the Carhartt camp.

511

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:16:09pm

re: #508 Decatur Deb

Yeah--lightweight hooded rain jacket, 2 plies.

I'm a Columbia guy myself...

512

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:16:41pm

re: #510 jaunte

Too warm here, except for a day of winter construction.

513

PhillyPretzel Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:16:47pm

North Face Jacket fights?? It is a good thing that my parka comes from LLBean.

514

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:16:56pm

Granola Poser

Often a college student or young adult, marked by an excessive attitude and attire of the rugged outdoors. The said poser is usually accompanied by generic granolaeske traits, always flaunted in public areas. Although the granola poser does usually enjoys outdoor activities such as hiking, fishing, camping, canoeing, etc., the granola's desire for others to see his outdoorsyness far outweighs his actual interest.

These traits include, but are not limited to: an obsession in certain intramural sports; an all natural diet; flaunting intense camping gear such as ropes or carabiners; unnecessarily wearing outdoor gear made for extreme weather (North Face, REI, Mountain Hardwear); an obsession with Chacos and wearing them for activities they were not designed for; an uncontrollable love for ultimate frisbee; the desire to hammock in populated areas; the drinking out of nalgene bottles; mountain-men beards; a taste in music that the normal population (including the granola poser himself) would naturally find unattractive; hippi-eske attire such as bandanas and shoelessness.

These activities, and many more that remain unlisted, are stressed by granolas so that onlookers might look at them with a jealous and slightly impressed eye.
Jim: "Hannah, why are you wearing an all natural fleece Columbia jacket? It's 80 degrees outside. A why is your Nalgene bottle and Chaco's attached to your backpack with a carabiner?

Hannah: "Shut up Jim. I am wild. I am adventurous. I am free."

Jim: "This is psychology class. You're a granola poser"

515

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:17:03pm

re: #496 000G

My thoughts are essentially summed up in Camus' Reflections on the Guillotine, should you ever actually want to bother. It's a good read anyhow. Camus is fantastic.

I take my whole philosophy on life from Camus' play "Caligula." From a notebook entry by Camus...

"No, Caligula is not dead. He is here, he is there. He is each of you. If the power were given to you, if you had a heart, if you loved life, you would see unleashed this monster or this angel that you carry within you. Our time of believing that things could be beautiful and stop being absurd is dying. Goodbye, I return to history where I feel trapped for so long those who fear to love too much."

Simple truth.

516

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:17:17pm

re: #506 Stanley Sea

PBR as posers say.

What are you posing as when you drink PBR? Old and needing a bath?

517

Renaissance_Man Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:18:28pm

re: #500 marjoriemoon

If I might - he doesn't seem like a sociopath to me. The sociopaths I have seen clinically are different - they are entirely self-absorbed, and become angry only when they personally are thwarted or insulted. It does not fit the clinical picture for a sociopath to become enraged when he hears about a social issue such as abortion; issues that arouse such emotional responses in other people just don't bother them at all.

A schizophreniform disorder of some kind seems appropriate in this case. The age is right, the dissociation and social difficulties, as well as delusions, also seem right.

Needless to say, people with these sorts of dissociation disorders are very easily influenced in their delusions by emotional manipulation, such as inflammatory rhetoric.

518

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:18:29pm

re: #513 PhillyPretzel

North Face Jacket fights?? It is a good thing that my parka comes from LLBean.

just the label...but they usually carry quality stuff under their brand....I've spent a fortune at the Beaners through the years

519

albusteve Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:19:09pm

game time

520

PhillyPretzel Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:20:11pm

re: #518 albusteve

I spend quite a bit there too.

521

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:20:11pm

re: #516 Jeff In Ohio

What are you posing as when you drink PBR? Old and needing a bath?

This far south, Rolling Rock is carried as a 'premium'. Cracks me up.

522

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:20:13pm

re: #506 Stanley Sea

PBR as posers say.

PBR found a way to remain popular among the young'uns. Retail for a buck a piece in a bar.

523

Obdicut Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:20:17pm

re: #516 Jeff In Ohio

What are you posing as when you drink PBR? Old and needing a bath?

PBR is a shit beer. I'm glad the hipsters drink it, because it leaves more Smuttynose for me.

524

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:20:29pm

North Face

1) A well-known brand of very high quality outdoor gear, especially jackets, backpacks, and tents.

2) A brand-name that has regrettably been appropriated by thugs and yuppies alike as a way of either projecting an image of wealth or interest in rugged activities and the great outdoors.

I was talking to this guy at the trailhead, and noticed that even though his North Face pack had to be a good 15-20 years old and faded from the sun, it wasn't ripped and all the seams were still solid! I hope my Gore-tex jacket lasts that long.

525

Stanghazi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:20:52pm

re: #516 Jeff In Ohio

What are you posing as when you drink PBR? Old and needing a bath?

Went to a nice restaurant for dinner a while back. All the guys ordered PBR, they served it in the can on a white napkin on a dish. Hopefully it was cheap.

526

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:21:58pm

re: #525 Stanley Sea

Went to a nice restaurant for dinner a while back. All the guys ordered PBR, they served it in the can on a white napkin on a dish. Hopefully it was cheap.

See. That's weird.

527

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:22:30pm

re: #466 funky chicken

I do want to say that Kos is an ass, and his site has featured nasty leftist stuff, like the Joe Lieberman in blackface/whiteface crap several years ago, etc.

But even Kos didn't put pictures of rifle scopes over politicians he disagreed with, and I don't remember his ever using "2nd amendment solutions" language, either.

Well, I think Kos himself is nice (despite "Screw'em"), and his site did have some nasty stuff because anyone can post there (and yes, some "Kossacks" are assholes), and Joe L. was in blackface at HuffPo rather than Kos, but otherwise I agree ;-)

528

Stanghazi Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:22:36pm

re: #526 Gus 802

See. That's weird.

Southern California baby!

529

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:22:43pm

re: #515 Walter L. Newton

I take my whole philosophy on life from Camus' play "Caligula." From a notebook entry by Camus...

"No, Caligula is not dead. He is here, he is there. He is each of you. If the power were given to you, if you had a heart, if you loved life, you would see unleashed this monster or this angel that you carry within you. Our time of believing that things could be beautiful and stop being absurd is dying. Goodbye, I return to history where I feel trapped for so long those who fear to love too much."

Simple truth.

Caligula is a fantastic play. My favorite part is the poetry recital.

530

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:23:02pm

I gotta say, as American commercial beers go, Pabst leads the pack. Having spent a large amount of my life in shithole bars, when they have PBR or ROlling Rock, I know those first few cold ones are going down easy. You can have your Bud, Miller, and the rest of that shit, but Pabst just tastes good. Nothing crafty about it, better in a bottle.

Maybe the posers are posing as cheapskates with good taste.

531

What, me worry? Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:23:13pm

re: #517 Renaissance_Man

If I might - he doesn't seem like a sociopath to me. The sociopaths I have seen clinically are different - they are entirely self-absorbed, and become angry only when they personally are thwarted or insulted. It does not fit the clinical picture for a sociopath to become enraged when he hears about a social issue such as abortion; issues that arouse such emotional responses in other people just don't bother them at all.

A schizophreniform disorder of some kind seems appropriate in this case. The age is right, the dissociation and social difficulties, as well as delusions, also seem right.

Needless to say, people with these sorts of dissociation disorders are very easily influenced in their delusions by emotional manipulation, such as inflammatory rhetoric.

I'll accept that :) Like I say, my thoughts are from my armchair and what I read on the subject. I'm not a clinician, but became interested when I met a few people with the condition.

532

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:23:25pm

Was at a Kroger in Richmond near the VCU campus. They can't keep Natural Light on the shelves. 12.00 a case.

I wonder why?

533

Dark_Falcon Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:24:24pm

re: #522 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

PBR found a way to remain popular among the young'uns. Retail for a buck a piece in a bar.

It actually won its blue ribbon at the Grand Colombian Exhibition in Chicago in 1893. For such a poor quality beer to win the top prize would seem to indicate the poor quality of beer in general back then,

534

reine.de.tout Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:25:03pm

re: #508 Decatur Deb

Yeah--lightweight hooded rain jacket, 2 plies.

I have the women's version rain jacket.
Love it.

535

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:26:09pm

"MTV" values.

536

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:26:44pm

re: #534 reine.de.tout

I have the women's version rain jacket.
Love it.

That's about right, pretty well made.

537

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:27:35pm

re: #529 000G

Caligula is a fantastic play. My favorite part is the poetry recital.

I played multiple roles in a production of that show, as people do with classical Shakespeare, the director added contemporary elements to the costuming, setting and attitude... in short... it was a "punk" interpretation of the material. This production was very physical, very sick and very upsetting. It was wonderful. We stopped short of having Caligula having sex with his horse.

But he nailed just about everything else that wasn't bolted down :)

538

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:27:41pm

re: #523 Obdicut

PBR is a shit beer. I'm glad the hipsters drink it, because it leaves more Smuttynose for me.

This redneck is going to kick your ass.

539

Reginald Perrin Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:28:28pm

re: #533 Dark_Falcon

It actually won its blue ribbon at the Grand Colombian Exhibition in Chicago in 1893. For such a poor quality beer to win the top prize would seem to indicate the poor quality of beer in general back then,

It's unlikely today's version of the beer has much in common with the beer that won the 1883 Blue Ribbon.

540

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:28:47pm

re: #530 Jeff In Ohio

I gotta say, as American commercial beers go, Pabst leads the pack. Having spent a large amount of my life in shithole bars, when they have PBR or ROlling Rock, I know those first few cold ones are going down easy. You can have your Bud, Miller, and the rest of that shit, but Pabst just tastes good. Nothing crafty about it, better in a bottle.

Maybe the posers are posing as cheapskates with good taste.

Surprised "in Ohio" didn't go for Yeungling's. I'd want Iron City or the old Duquesne, but Yeunglings will do for regional nostalgia.

541

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:30:06pm

I have a birthday coming up.

[Link: www.llbean.com...]

542

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:31:40pm

re: #540 Decatur Deb

Surprised "in Ohio" didn't go for Yeungling's. I'd want Iron City or the old Duquesne, but Yeunglings will do for regional nostalgia.

Southern Ohio. Yuenglings isn't found in the rural country bars. Burger, PBR, Rolling Rock if your lucky. Corona is about as far outside the beer box as they go.

543

Walter L. Newton Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:32:21pm

re: #541 Gus 802

I have a birthday coming up.

[Link: www.llbean.com...]

Are you registered at LL Bean... because I don't know how else someone is going to get a present to you... I tried around Christmas time, but you keep playing secret hermit.

544

Decatur Deb Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:32:52pm

re: #542 Jeff In Ohio

Southern Ohio. Yuenglings isn't found in the rural country bars. Burger, PBR, Rolling Rock if your lucky. Corona is about as far outside the beer box as they go.

Jeez, we can get it at Sam's here in AL.

545

Gus Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:33:20pm

re: #543 Walter L. Newton

Are you registered at LL Bean... because I don't know how else someone is going to get a present to you... I tried around Christmas time, but you keep playing secret hermit.

I thought that wasn't a secret?

Nah, I'm not registered.

546

Amory Blaine Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:36:26pm

re: #516 Jeff In Ohio

What are you posing as when you drink PBR? Old and needing a bath?

Pabst fucked their workers with their pensions.

Very patriotic.

547

Jeff In Ohio Sun, Jan 9, 2011 1:44:18pm

re: #546 Amory Blaine

Pabst fucked their workers with their pensions.

Very patriotic.

Jesus, man, not when I'm working.

548

palomino Sun, Jan 9, 2011 2:10:59pm

re: #427 Dark_Falcon

A gun is much less expensive and requires less attention. Even if you practice every week, it takes up less time. If you're a dog lover, then by all means get a dog. But it's not a good option for Steve right now: He's using an artificial leg and a big dog has to be walked.

True enough, but I've got a slightly different take.

With over 200 breeds out there, you can find one for just about any needs. Think of all the incredibly well trained service dogs used by all kinds of people. And they don't need to be big to be good watchdogs. (Guard dogs are a different story, but over half the dog's value is its hearing and the loud noise it makes when perceiving threats.) The nice thing about the dogs is that they tell you when something is up--prowler, home invader, whatever. Which then signals you to bust out the heavy artillery, if you have it. In my case, that's limited to a baseball bat and a stun gun.

549

SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Jan 9, 2011 3:26:25pm

re: #51 zora

reading the accounts of some of the eyewitnesses of the shooting in az. i saw a couple of accounts that said that it took about 30 min. for ems to arrive on the scene. that made it even more amazing that gifford did not succumb to the gun shoot wound to the head. it appears that an intern of gifford's deserves much of the credit for this.

Read more: [Link: www.azcentral.com...]

[Link: www.azcentral.com...]

Thank God he had the presence of mind.

550

RexMundi Mon, Jan 10, 2011 9:40:12am

Harris Interactive Poll regarding Obama:

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

Spy Mode Auto

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