Egyptian strongman Hosni Mubarak has deployed military units in the streets of Cairo.
Mohamed ElBaradei has pronounced that the Egyptian government is “on its last legs.”
Joe Biden, meanwhile, told PBS yesterday that he does not consider Mubarak to be a dictator.
1 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:37:20am |
For those just jioing: the AJ live feed:http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
| 2 |
Political Atheist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:39:30am |
I guess this proves VP Biden has not read a single memo on the subject from Sec State Clinton. How negligent is that? After all he is President pro tem of the senate.
| 3 |
Tumulus11 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:40:25am |
. The time for Mr. Mubarak to engage in dialogue with his people was before they began storming the police stations.
| 4 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:42:44am |
re: #2 Rightwingconspirator
Don’t you think it’s a purely political statement?
| 5 |
laZardo Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:42:48am |
The military appears to be shaking hands with the protesters. Uh oh.
| 6 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:43:37am |
Sounds like Biden’s response was an ill-timed one he got before he knew the extent of the situation in Egypt. Not to make excuses, but my guess is if he were asked the same question today he would say something like “Egypt has always been a US ally and we are watching the situation closely.” Instead, he defended a US ally. Of course, people will have a hay-day repeating this quote until it sounds like Biden is defending Osama bin Laden. I’m sure Rush is blowing this quote out his ass on his show right now.
| 7 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:44:48am |
re: #6 darthstar
Obama reportedly got a 40 page briefing book on Egypt this morning…
| 8 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:45:29am |
re: #7 BishopX
Obama reportedly got a 40 page briefing book on Egypt this morning…
And my guess is he’s probably read the entire thing already.
| 9 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:46:09am |
re: #2 Rightwingconspirator
I guess this proves VP Biden has not read a single memo on the subject from Sec State Clinton. How negligent is that? After all he is President pro tem of the senate.
Biden also said this:
“time has come for President Mubarak to begin to move in the direction of being more responsive to some of the needs of the people out there.”
Not very different from Clinton’s statement.
| 12 |
Fozzie Bear Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:46:58am |
Unless we plan on sending in troops (incredibly bad idea), our only move is to wait this out, like everybody else. This isn’t our revolution, but we do have to deal with whoever ends up in control of Egypt.
| 13 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:48:12am |
One problem with staying in power for 30 years: you can no longer blame anything on your predecessor.
| 14 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:48:52am |
Reuters is saying 410 injured, some with bullet wounds, reported so far.
| 15 |
PhillyPretzel Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:49:11am |
The Wall Street Journal is blogging about what is going on in Egypt.
[Link: blogs.wsj.com…]
| 16 |
wrenchwench Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:49:23am |
| 18 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:50:46am |
Egyptian tv says that the curfew has been expanded nationwide. No word on whether anyone’s actually heeding the curfew. By the looks of it, those protests are still going on and the security forces are still battling the protesters in the streets around the country.
| 19 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:50:54am |
Reports that police and military clashing… That could be the turning point if true.
| 20 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:51:39am |
Israel Fears Regime Change in Egypt
Israel is watching developments in Egypt with concern. The government is standing by autocratic Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, out of fear that the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood could take power and start supplying arms to Hamas.
| 22 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:52:10am |
re: #18 lawhawk
Some people were earlier were piling on pickups to get home in time… my guess is that these protests are morphing…people who have been out all day are going home and people who are hearing about the success are coming out.
| 23 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:52:14am |
Question: if TV the only media available right now in Egypt? Is that the only way for people to even find out about the curfew? If you were outside all day how would you even know?
| 25 |
karmic_inquisitor Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:52:22am |
While this is getting a lot of attention, Lebanon quietly turned into an Iranian client state this week. Iran has also demanded freedom of action in Egypt too in the recent past and did not get it. You can expect them to be fanning the flames.
[Link: news.xinhuanet.com…]
| 26 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:53:05am |
re: #9 Talking Point Detective
Biden also said this:
Not very different from Clinton’s statement.
You’re missing the point. The middle east is in turmoil. We must focus on criticizing our vice president! //
| 27 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:53:08am |
From the bbc:
#
1749: AP reporter Ashraf Sweilim reports that some Bedouins in Sinai are besieging the Sheikh Zoueid police station, demanding members of the security forces inside to surrender.
| 28 |
wrenchwench Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:53:22am |
| 29 |
karmic_inquisitor Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:53:23am |
| 31 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:55:26am |
re: #29 karmic_inquisitor
Israel has a very weak hand now. Gaza may end up re-occupied as a buffer.
In a worst case scenario, yes. My completely uneducated guess is that Mubarak will stay, he’ll make some token concessions and the protests will die down in a week or so.
| 32 |
karmic_inquisitor Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:55:40am |
Biden lives on his own planet. Why do you think his PR guy got the job as WH press sec? He was effective at containing Biden.
| 33 |
mr.ja Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:55:48am |
re: #2 Rightwingconspirator
Clinton just gave her comments, strongly urging the Egypt government not to use violence, and allow people to freely express their opnion. She also urged to keep the protests non-violent…
[Link: blogs.wsj.com…]
The livestream from Al Jazeera is really good, a bit ago it showed the difference between what their camera shown, and what is shown by the Egytian TV - their cameras are just a few 100m apart…
| 34 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:55:52am |
re: #29 karmic_inquisitor
Doubt that would happen. Far more likely is that Israel would reoccupy the Philadelphi corridor between Gaza and Egypt to prevent smuggling and Islamists from further open rearming of Hamas.
Israel’s going to be sitting and watching what happens but they’re going to watch what happens in Sinai very closely. Israel receives access to oil from Sinai oil fields under Camp David. If that flow is blocked, it could cause significant problems for Israel because Israel is still years away from fully exploiting the Leviathan natural gas field off its coast in the Med.
This means that should it be attacked by Hizbullah or Hamas in a coordinated effort, its ability to respond might be hampered by fuel supplies on hand.
| 35 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:56:15am |
re: #29 karmic_inquisitor
Israel has a very weak hand now. Gaza may end up re-occupied as a buffer.
Refugees should probably seek another border to cross…sadly.
| 36 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:56:32am |
“If Egypt goes, the entire region goes” - guy on AJ
| 37 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:56:42am |
This is terrible. I’ve been working so much I’ve been missing most of the news. This is the most awful thing I’ve read in world news in a while.
| 38 |
General Nimrod Bodfish Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:56:46am |
I don’t have much hope that a new regime there would be good for everyone involved, especially the Middle East. If the Muslim Brotherhood or other Islamic extremists get control, everything goes cattywampus. Hope actual democracy and freedoms come to fruition there, but, again, I don’t have much hope.
| 39 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:57:00am |
| 40 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:57:22am |
re: #37 NJDhockeyfan
Frankly I think this is good news…This is completely discrediting mubarak AND the MB at the same time.
| 41 |
Stanley Sea Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:57:34am |
BreakingNews
Protesters at the Information Ministry in Cairo are chanting, ‘The people and the army, we are one,’ - CNN [Link: bit.ly…]
| 43 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:58:07am |
re: #2 Rightwingconspirator
I guess this proves VP Biden has not read a single memo on the subject from Sec State Clinton. How negligent is that? After all he is President pro tem of the senate.
Which would be real important if we were ever likely to see a 50/50 split on a resolution that wasn’t filibustered first….
| 44 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:58:16am |
re: #37 NJDhockeyfan
This is terrible. I’ve been working so much I’ve been missing most of the news. This is the most awful thing I’ve read in world news in a while.
Don’t worry, the government will have it all under control shortly.
| 45 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:58:20am |
re: #42 lawhawk
The cat is out of the bag.
| 46 |
Interesting Times Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:58:47am |
| 47 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:58:50am |
Oil Rises Most Since 2009 on Concern Egyptian Unrest to Spread
Oil surged the most since September 2009 as unrest in Egypt raised concern that protests would spread to major oil-producing parts of the Middle East.
Crude gained as much as 4.8 percent after a day of clashes between police and protesters demanding an end to Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak’s 30-year regime. The unrest in Egypt followed an uprising that led to the Jan. 14 overthrow of Tunisian President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali.
“Tunisia isn’t a big oil producer, and Egypt isn’t a big oil producer, but it’s moving closer to the oil fields,” said Phil Flynn, vice president of research at PFGBest in Chicago. “This thing seems to be spreading from border to border.”
Ugh.
| 49 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:59:05am |
Clinton: ‘We support the universal human rights of the Egyptian people’
| 51 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:59:42am |
re: #47 NJDhockeyfan
Oil Rises Most Since 2009 on Concern Egyptian Unrest to Spread
Ugh.
Contagion. Revolution as Plague
| 52 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:59:48am |
re: #49 darthstar
Clinton: ‘We support the universal human rights of the Egyptian people’
Except for, you know, the last 30 years.
| 53 |
Ericus58 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:59:52am |
Too late closing the barn doors, the horse has gotten out.
| 54 |
Vicious Babushka Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:00:57am |
| 55 |
Varek Raith Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:00:59am |
Everywhere that freedom stirs, let tyrants fear.
-George W. Bush
| 56 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:02:06am |
The Telegraph is posting updates.
| 57 |
kilroy Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:02:12am |
Who speaks for the White House; Biden or Clinton?
| 59 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:02:42am |
re: #55 Varek Raith
Everywhere that freedom stirs, let tyrants fear.
-George W. Bush
[Link: www.zazzle.com…]
| 60 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:02:53am |
re: #51 bloodstar
Contagion. Revolution as Plague
It’s not as if things were really bad in those countries.
| 61 |
Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:03:13am |
| 62 |
RogueOne Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:03:30am |
| 63 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:03:31am |
#
1803: US President Barack Obama has convened his national security team for a briefing on the unrest in Egypt, the Associated Press reports.
#
1801: Kuwait Airways has suspended all flights to Egypt, and is waiting for the situation to stabilise, al-Arabiya TV reports.
| 64 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:03:33am |
re: #57 kilroy
Who speaks for the White House; Biden or Clinton?
White House speaks with forked tongue.
| 65 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:03:34am |
The genie is out of the bottle.
The toothpaste is out of the tube
The lunatic is on the grass.
The cat is out of the bag.
The fan blades have made contact with fecal matter.
That ship has sailed.
Too good.
I just had to collect them.
| 66 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:03:50am |
re: #61 oaktree
Cranky Geezer: Get off my lawn!
Speaking of cranky geezers…Why hasn’t President McCain made a statement yet?
| 67 |
Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:04:21am |
| 68 |
karmic_inquisitor Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:04:48am |
re: #31 Killgore Trout
In a worst case scenario, yes. My completely uneducated guess is that Mubarak will stay, he’ll make some token concessions and the protests will die down in a week or so.
I’d like to agree with you, but while our eyes see a progression from Tunis, what happened in Lebanon has vastly more significant implications. Iran asserts itself more and more and few seem capable (as in “mustering will”) of stopping them. More chaos means more opportunity. The Muslim Brotherhood would be willing to allow Hezbollah to move freely on the eastern side of the Nile to tie up Israel. Iran would use that freedom to undermine the Muslim Brotherhood and find a compliant Sunni dictator to replace them.
On our side of the ledger are an ugly gang of kleptocrats who have used theocratic ring leaders to control and distract their populations all propped up in the name of “realism” and “stability”.
We are running out of cards to play, IMO. One hopes there are earnest democrats who can bring about authentic change, but that was the hope we had in Iran in 1979.
| 69 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:04:54am |
re: #66 darthstar
Speaking of cranky geezers…Why hasn’t President McCain made a statement yet?
He can’t get his teeth to stop chattering long enough to talk.
| 70 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:05:02am |
| 71 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:05:17am |
re: #26 darthstar
You’re missing the point. The middle east is in turmoil. We must focus on criticizing our vice president! //
Politicizing the memorial in Tuscon was good practice. As a result, they’re in playing shape for politicizing the shooting of hundreds of protesters in the streets.
| 72 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:05:38am |
| 74 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:06:00am |
| 75 |
karmic_inquisitor Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:06:30am |
re: #49 darthstar
Clinton: ‘We support the universal human rights of the Egyptian people’
While admirable words, what does she have left to say?
| 76 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:06:33am |
Egypt’s ruling party HQ burns; violence erupts at ‘Friday of Wrath’
Sounds of gunshots were heard in the streets of central Cairo on Friday evening after the government imposed a curfew following a day of violent protests when police fired rubber bullets and teargas.
Protesters clashed in Kasr el-Aini street near parliament, the prime minister’s downtown office and other government buildings, a witness said. There were more than 1,000 demonstrators and thick smoke in that area.
The headquarters of the ruling National Democratic Party were set ablaze in Cairo shortly after a curfew came into force, live footage carried by Al Jazeera television showed.
State television confirmed the building was set on fire.
Meanwhile, tanks arrived on the streets of the eastern Egyptian city of Suez on Friday night in front of the charred remains of a police station set alight the night before, a Reuters witness said.
Dozens of protesters climbed on the tanks, said the Reuters witness who saw at least five tanks. They tried to talk to soldiers who tried to wave them off. One tank had about 25 protesters on it, he said.
| 77 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:06:42am |
| 79 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:07:55am |
Speaking of which, time to make some more coffee. I’m supposed to be doing interviews for an article due in a couple days buy I’m glued to this Egypt coverage.
| 80 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:08:10am |
#
1808: CBS Radio News Amoona tweets: “The entire staff of the Israeli Embassy in Cairo has been evacuated by helicopters.”
| 81 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:08:53am |
#
1804: There are unconfirmed reports of army personnel clashing with police in Cairo, according to al-Jazeera TV.
| 83 |
Baier Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:09:35am |
What is the world coming to we Mohamed ElBaradei is the good guy?
| 84 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:09:42am |
re: #81 lawhawk
If confirmed, that’s a hugely significant change in the tenor and suggests that the Mubarak government may be losing control over its security apparatus.
| 85 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:10:36am |
re: #83 Baier
What is the world coming to we Mohamed ElBaradei is the good guy?
For the Egyptians, he’s the good guy.
| 86 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:10:37am |
re: #84 lawhawk
AJ has been reporting the army is shaking hands with protesters and being welcomed…
| 88 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:11:09am |
re: #81 lawhawk
#
1804: There are unconfirmed reports of army personnel clashing with police in Cairo, according to al-Jazeera TV.
Not surprising. I heard many members of the police have joined the protesters.
| 89 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:11:44am |
re: #88 NJDhockeyfan
Not surprising. I heard many members of the police have joined the protesters.
They miss being able to chat on Facebook at the station…
| 91 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:11:57am |
re: #79 Alexzander
Speaking of which, time to make some more coffee. I’m supposed to be doing interviews for an article due in a couple days buy I’m glued to this Egypt coverage.
History being made, and we can watch it live, in real time.
| 92 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:12:09am |
I wish there was more information in the way of possible military support… That really is the biggest break the protesters could get.
| 93 |
recusancy Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:12:11am |
re: #83 Baier
What is the world coming to we Mohamed ElBaradei is the good guy?
He’s not the good guy, he’s just the guy who was an ally with the US and wasn’t dangerous towards Israel.
| 94 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:12:12am |
Are there any Egyptian lizards registered?
| 95 |
RogueOne Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:12:25am |
re: #86 BishopX
AJ has been reporting the army is shaking hands with protesters and being welcomed…
It’s hard to tell but that could be a very bad sign. The military is controlled by a very conservative faction.
| 96 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:12:48am |
re: #91 reine.de.tout
History being made, and we can watch it live, in real time.
Absolutely. Seeing the evening prayer suddenly bring a whole crowd to their knees was quite powerful.
| 97 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:13:10am |
Is no one going to point out how stupid the VP’s remark was?
Does anyone think that Biden thinks Egypt is a democracy?
| 98 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:13:46am |
This is the tightrope we walk in the Middle East: we can support repressive regimes that support US policy, or we risk of seeing the countires fall under the control of popular regimes that are hostile to US interests.
| 99 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:13:47am |
Meanwhile…
Some top Egyptian military officials are visiting Pentagon
Some of Egypt’s most senior military officials were inside the Pentagon Friday, even as Egyptian Army vehicles rolled through the streets of Cairo.
They’re attending the annual U.S.-Egypt Military Cooperation Committee meetings to discuss military training, security assistance and defense industrial cooperation.
All four heads of the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines were scheduled to meet with the Egyptian officials. The sessions are being hosted by Alexander Vershbow, the U.S. assistant secretary of defense for International Security Affairs.
I’m thinking the original meeting talking points have been changed.
| 100 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:14:03am |
re: #97 Buck
Its been discussed already yeah. I honestly dont take anything Biden has to say seriously.
| 101 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:14:12am |
re: #99 NJDhockeyfan
Meanwhile…
Some top Egyptian military officials are visiting Pentagon
I’m thinking the original meeting talking points have been changed.
Ya think?
| 102 |
Ericus58 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:14:19am |
Massive running of protesters away from Square…..
| 103 |
gehazi Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:14:27am |
re: #97 Buck
Someone already did. But Biden saying stupid things is hardly news.
Pretty sure he just got the “Things are about to get real” memo late. Or didn’t read it.
| 104 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:14:34am |
re: #97 Buck
Is no one going to point out how stupid the VP’s remark was?
Does anyone think that Biden thinks Egypt is a democracy?
As John Stewart pointed out, why does Mubarak keep getting re-elected with 80+ per cent of the vote?
| 105 |
Killgore Trout Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:14:41am |
re: #94 ralphieboy
Are there any Egyptian lizards registered?
We had a few a while back but the Muslims were chased off as Islamists and even a few Copts have registered over the years but were labeled traitors by the Christian supremacists. That was all on the old “right wing”LGF
| 106 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:15:04am |
re: #97 Buck
Is no one going to point out how stupid the VP’s remark was?
Buck - go to any rightwing website. You will find them talking about that.
Endlessly.
| 107 |
recusancy Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:15:37am |
re: #93 recusancy
He’s not the good guy, he’s just the guy who was an ally with the US and wasn’t dangerous towards Israel.
Oops.. I meant that to be a response to Mubarak. I mis-read the comment.
| 108 |
rwdflynavy Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:15:43am |
re: #104 ralphieboy
As John Stewart pointed out, why does Mubarak keep getting re-elected with 80+ per cent of the vote?
‘It’s Not the People Who Vote that Count; It’s the People Who Count the Votes’
Joseph Stalin
| 109 |
Ericus58 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:15:55am |
1808: CBS Radio News Amoona tweets: “The entire staff of the Israeli Embassy in Cairo has been evacuated by helicopters.
| 110 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:16:42am |
re: #109 Ericus58
1808: CBS Radio News Amoona tweets: “The entire staff of the Israeli Embassy in Cairo has been evacuated by helicopters.
Did they have helocipters back in 1808?
| 111 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:16:57am |
re: #60 ryannon
It’s not as if things were really bad in those countries.
The point of the Contagion quote is that it’s going to spread, and spread into countries that otherwise wouldn’t be vulnerable to a revolution or upheaval. You’re not going to see things just settle down, because this is the perfect time to agitate, the perfect time to push if you’re a revolutionary.
There’s so many people going, ‘if they can do it, why can’t we?’ and the next thing you know, it’s jumped from one boarder to the next. Heck Kuwait’s suddenly decided to offer all it’s citizens about $3000 as a one time bonus oil money, which is a very calculated move to keep them happy.
Yes, things are bad, but that doesn’t mean a revolution can or will make things better. In fact I’m willing to propose a bunch of unexpected revolutions will make things much much worse for the region, particularly since there will be no way to coordinate a response as food and necessities run low or out to that many areas.
Violent Revolutions really are like a natural disaster. And I’m presuming that even if Mubarak leaves the country right now, it’s going to go violent as the radical forces fight to gain control of power.
| 112 |
Ericus58 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:17:55am |
| 113 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:18:25am |
re: #97 Buck
Is no one going to point out how stupid the VP’s remark was?
Does anyone think that Biden thinks Egypt is a democracy?
LOL. What do you think P or VP would have said about Stalin in 1943? It’s pure politics, OK? I mean, it’s not quite Mission to Moscow. Sheesh.
| 114 |
Political Atheist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:18:33am |
re: #4 Sergey Romanov
Political or not, it’s so obviously wrong it damages his credibility-again.
| 115 |
Big Steve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:18:34am |
re: #6 darthstar
Sounds like Biden’s response was an ill-timed one he got before he knew the extent of the situation in Egypt. Not to make excuses, but my guess is if he were asked the same question today he would say something like “Egypt has always been a US ally and we are watching the situation closely.”
Not arguing with your assessment but if true it would actually bother me more about the administration. Because if the the VP, and by association the rest of the administration, is not able to project even one day into the future on possible outcomes of civil unrest in an ally’s country, well that is very worrisome.
| 116 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:18:56am |
This is interesting.
Questions arise on whether Syria has followed Egypt on Web crackdown
It is unclear whether Syria has shut down Internet services as rumors to that effect circulate rapidly around the Web.
A report that appeared to confirm it sent Twitter into a tizzy on Friday as people both repeated and refuted the claim.
The regional news outlet Al Arabiya said Syria is blocking Internet access, a possibility that would come on the heels of a similar action in Egypt.
But the outlet also said an official denied that the government is blocking the Web. Twitter users also spoke up to to say the report is false, claiming that they were tweeting from Syria.
More coming as the story develops.
| 117 |
gehazi Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:19:12am |
re: #109 Ericus58
1808: CBS Radio News Amoona tweets: “The entire staff of the Israeli Embassy in Cairo has been evacuated by helicopters.
Where’s the link to this? Curious to follow directly.
| 118 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:19:39am |
| 120 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:19:49am |
There are calls to protect the Cairo Museum, which appear to be going unheeded. That’s one of the great museums in the world, and it would be a huge loss if anything were to happen to its collections. It would be as if the Louvre or British Museum or the American Museum of Natural History went up in flames.
| 121 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:20:01am |
re: #114 Rightwingconspirator
Political or not, it’s so obviously wrong it damages his credibility-again.
He has credibility left? I thought he lost it all in custard-gate…
| 122 |
recusancy Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:20:02am |
re: #83 Baier
What is the world coming to we Mohamed ElBaradei is the good guy?
Why don’t you like him?
| 123 |
Ericus58 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:20:23am |
| 124 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:20:33am |
re: #114 Rightwingconspirator
Political or not, it’s so obviously wrong it damages his credibility-again.
Biden has such a knack for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time - seriously, I just pay zero attention to him.
But last night the Egyptians weren’t happy with him. That’s the danger when he opens his mouth - people on other countries take him seriously.
| 125 |
gehazi Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:20:53am |
Because if the the VP, and by association the rest of the administration
Stop right there. ;)
| 126 |
rwdflynavy Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:21:42am |
re: #120 lawhawk
There are calls to protect the Cairo Museum, which appear to be going unheeded. That’s one of the great museums in the world, and it would be a huge loss if anything were to happen to its collections. It would be as if the Louvre or British Museum or the American Museum of Natural History went up in flames.
It would be as if all 3 museums went up in flames!
| 127 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:21:56am |
There was just a big discussion about returning the Bust of Nefertiti from Berlin to Egypt. My guess is that she is going to be staying put for a while…
| 128 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:22:24am |
5.49pm: The latest from Alexandria from Peter Bouckaert, of Human Rights Watch:
The army has deployed in Alexandria but atmosphere is calm. Soldiers are talking to protestors. Confirmed that Alexandria governorate and many police stations burned down.
| 129 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:22:38am |
re: #111 bloodstar
The point of the Contagion quote is that it’s going to spread, and spread into countries that otherwise wouldn’t be vulnerable to a revolution or upheaval. You’re not going to see things just settle down, because this is the perfect time to agitate, the perfect time to push if you’re a revolutionary.
There’s so many people going, ‘if they can do it, why can’t we?’ and the next thing you know, it’s jumped from one boarder to the next. Heck Kuwait’s suddenly decided to offer all it’s citizens about $3000 as a one time bonus oil money, which is a very calculated move to keep them happy.
Yes, things are bad, but that doesn’t mean a revolution can or will make things better. In fact I’m willing to propose a bunch of unexpected revolutions will make things much much worse for the region, particularly since there will be no way to coordinate a response as food and necessities run low or out to that many areas.
Violent Revolutions really are like a natural disaster. And I’m presuming that even if Mubarak leaves the country right now, it’s going to go violent as the radical forces fight to gain control of power.
Next thing you know, the kids will be listening to rock ‘n roll and zipping around on skateboards.
| 130 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:22:48am |
re: #24 MurphysMom
Biden: “This is no big effin deal.”
re: #97 Buck
Is no one going to point out how stupid the VP’s remark was?
Does anyone think that Biden thinks Egypt is a democracy?
Not much else needs to be said about the state of the rightwing these days. Riots in the streets of Egypt, and they maintain their laser-like focus on venting at Obama, Biden, Clinton, and 1/2 of the American voting public.
| 131 |
Big Steve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:22:54am |
| 132 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:23:03am |
re: #127 ralphieboy
A similar discussion was made about the return of an obelisk in the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s collection in NYC.
| 133 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:23:43am |
re: #105 Killgore Trout
We had a few a while back but the Muslims were chased off as Islamists and even a few Copts have registered over the years but were labeled traitors by the Christian supremacists. That was all on the old “right wing”LGF
And that kind of crap is why I had to clean out the stables.
| 134 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:24:30am |
Maybe we should reinstate the Pharoah. I am willing to bet that some of his descendants are still living in Memphis (Tennessee)
| 135 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:24:31am |
AJ is reporting fire trucks near the national museum… the live feed can hear sirens….
| 137 |
Ericus58 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:24:56am |
man, it sure is getting hazy on the live feeds….
| 138 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:25:50am |
re: #135 BishopX
AJ is reporting fire trucks near the national museum… the live feed can hear sirens…
I can hear the Gaza Rooster!
| 139 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:26:12am |
I”m going to call it a military coup at this point.
| 140 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:26:22am |
Twitter:
@DavidCornDC: Modest idea. Next time US sells tear gas and weapons to an autocratic regime, put on a label: “Not Made in the USA.”
| 141 |
simoom Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:26:23am |
re: #97 Buck
Does anyone think that Biden thinks Egypt is a democracy?
It’s my understanding that Egypt is a democracy in name, but since 1967 Presidents have kept a near constant State of Emergency declared, which allows them to ignore all the trappings of democracies (the citizen’s constitutional rights).
| 142 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:26:29am |
Presumably like many others here, I will genuinely be upset if that museum burns down. My AJ live feed ended - is it just my connection or did the actual broadcast end?
| 143 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:27:22am |
re: #142 Alexzander
Presumably like many others here, I will genuinely be upset if that museum burns down. My AJ live feed ended - is it just my connection or did the actual broadcast end?
No, and I’ll wager that no one is going to torch the museum.
| 144 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:27:26am |
re: #139 BishopX
On what grounds would call this a military coup?
| 146 |
Big Steve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:28:19am |
re: #105 Killgore Trout
the old “right wing”LGF
The other day I checked my karma and to my surprise I am nearly above water (Karma points to number of posts). In the old LGF I was hugely negative after the karma thingy got put in. Now a days I must be doing better although it is refreshing to occasionally post and get whupped with negative points…..reminds me of the “old LGF”
| 147 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:28:29am |
re: #144 lawhawk
On what grounds would call this a military coup?
There is a difference between the military seizing power and the military refusing to maintain power for the regime. It is a fine distinction, but we should reserve judgement until we see how it plays out.
| 148 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:28:40am |
re: #145 BishopX
and great footage too….protester standing on the apcs talking to the crews.
| 149 |
Stanley Sea Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:28:52am |
re: #120 lawhawk
There are calls to protect the Cairo Museum, which appear to be going unheeded. That’s one of the great museums in the world, and it would be a huge loss if anything were to happen to its collections. It would be as if the Louvre or British Museum or the American Museum of Natural History went up in flames.
Oh I hope to hell nothing happens. I recall the Iraq museum debacle.
| 150 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:28:54am |
re: #143 ryannon
I’m not sure that the protesters would deliberately torch the museum, but that doesn’t mean that fires started in its vicinity couldn’t spread accidentally - and with the lack of fire fighters to battle the blaze that the museum could get damaged along with its collections.
| 151 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:29:12am |
re: #141 simoom
It’s my understanding that Egypt is a democracy in name, but since 1967 Presidents have kept a near constant State of Emergency declared, which allows them to ignore all the trappings of democracies (the citizen’s constitutional rights).
Well, they have an emergency, don’t they?
| 152 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:29:22am |
re: #150 lawhawk
I’m not sure that the protesters would deliberately torch the museum, but that doesn’t mean that fires started in its vicinity couldn’t spread accidentally - and with the lack of fire fighters to battle the blaze that the museum could get damaged along with its collections.
and looters…
| 153 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:29:31am |
re: #142 Alexzander
Presumably like many others here, I will genuinely be upset if that museum burns down. My AJ live feed ended - is it just my connection or did the actual broadcast end?
I’m still getting it.
| 154 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:30:17am |
re: #151 Decatur Deb
Well, they have an emergency, don’t they?
A State of Emergency that goes on for 45 years is a sign that someody really likes excercising those emergency powers…
| 156 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:30:39am |
re: #144 lawhawk
the military is securing public buildings, joining protesters…and Mubarak is nowhere….if he is still in power…I fell like there would have been statements….
I’m calling it…I don’t have much evidence yet though.
| 157 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:31:01am |
re: #154 ralphieboy
A State of Emergency that goes on for 45 years is a sign that someody really likes excercising those emergency powers…
Prescience.
| 158 |
Ericus58 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:31:12am |
As time drags on without Mubarak addressing the Egyptian nation, I would wager that it may eventually end up being live footage of him and his family boarding a helicopter for an “undisclosed destination” in preparations to his departure.
| 159 |
Big Steve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:31:42am |
re: #139 BishopX
I”m going to call it a military coup at this point.
Its never a coup until the old leader’s wife starts shipping her shoes out of the country.
| 160 |
recusancy Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:31:43am |
re: #158 Ericus58
As time drags on without Mubarak addressing the Egyptian nation, I would wager that it may eventually end up being live footage of him and his family boarding a helicopter for an “undisclosed destination” in preparations to his departure.
His son is already in London.
| 161 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:31:55am |
Its 8:30 PM in Egypt now - do you think Mubarak is going to wait until tomorrow to announce anything?
| 162 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:32:10am |
18:28 “Intense” gunfire near key government buildings in Cairo, say Al-Jazeera. The army is entering the city, apparently to the cheers of locals.
| 164 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:32:59am |
The presidential guard is on the streets in Cairo….and they’re being cheered.
| 165 |
Big Steve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:33:10am |
re: #154 ralphieboy
A State of Emergency that goes on for 45 years is a sign that someody really likes excercising those emergency powers…
so if the past 45 years have been a state of emergency, does today count as a double secret probation state of emergency.
| 166 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:33:37am |
re: #115 Big Steve
Not arguing with your assessment but if true it would actually bother me more about the administration. Because if the the VP, and by association the rest of the administration, is not able to project even one day into the future on possible outcomes of civil unrest in an ally’s country, well that is very worrisome.
I’d be more bothered if our VP was so glued to the internet and twitter that he was as current on every burp and fart on the planet as so many people on blogs (like this one, dKos, etc.) purport to be. That’s why I’m always pleased when someone in the administration refuses to comment in the first x hours of a new story. The press will always demand an instant answer. Calmer heads will step back and evaluate. Biden gave a political response (too soon, obviously) without knowing all of the facts of the situation. Shit happens sometimes…but I’m not about to jump on the “HE’S A GAFF MACHINE!!!” bandwagon when the real crisis is what is happening in Egypt and throughout the middle east.
| 167 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:33:43am |
1831: Sultan al-Qassemi tweets: “Protestors have stormed Egyptian TV building&have destroyed some equipment. Helicopter is arriving. #Jan25.
| 168 |
Ericus58 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:34:11am |
| 169 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:34:25am |
Here is a link to page(and its translation) from an Egyptian protesting panphlet, explaining what to wear during the protest:
| 170 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:34:38am |
| 171 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:35:08am |
| 173 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:35:58am |
Wow…today’s the 25th anniversary of the Challenger disaster. It’s hard to believe it’s been that long already.
| 174 |
NJDhockeyfan Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:36:14am |
Egyptians saluting massive army presence in downtown Cairo. #jan25 [Link: yfrog.com…]
| 175 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:36:50am |
re: #170 reine.de.tout
no idea…
AJ is reporting that the police are firing RPGS into the crowd in the northern Sinai….No military there.
| 176 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:37:31am |
re: #55 Varek Raith
Everywhere that freedom stirs, let tyrants fear.
-George W. Bush
Note: We never intended for this to apply to tyrants we figure to be better than the alternative. For us.
| 177 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:38:59am |
re: #163 ralphieboy
Not a great analogy. Perhaps a better one might be the days and weeks leading up to the assassination of Sadat, when Mubarak came to power. That’s from 1977 through to 1981. In this case, the issues are condensed for time, but the grievances aren’t all that different (food prices, economic and social constraints, roundups of Islamists, etc.) although this time the Muslim Brotherhood is largely on the sidelines watching what’s happening.
| 178 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:39:36am |
re: #97 Buck
Is no one going to point out how stupid the VP’s remark was?
Does anyone think that Biden thinks Egypt is a democracy?
No, I don’t think he does.
Now, will you please explain to me why we’ve been giving this brutal dictatorship such a lot of foreign aid for so many years?
| 179 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:40:31am |
re: #150 lawhawk
I’m not sure that the protesters would deliberately torch the museum, but that doesn’t mean that fires started in its vicinity couldn’t spread accidentally - and with the lack of fire fighters to battle the blaze that the museum could get damaged along with its collections.
They appeared to be deploying fire engines around it according to video on Al-Jazeera.
| 180 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:41:21am |
New footage on AJ showing tanks waving Egyptian flags.. possibly just taking advantage of good will, or genuinely flipping sides?
| 181 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:41:37am |
I just spoke to my boss who is Egyptian and has family there. He said he cannot call into the country and can’t get calls out so he has no idea how they are doing.
| 183 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:43:21am |
re: #173 darthstar
Wow…today’s the 25th anniversary of the Challenger disaster. It’s hard to believe it’s been that long already.
I guess it has been. I was in seventh grade, IIRC.
| 184 |
BishopX Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:43:23am |
re: #180 Alexzander
That’s the presidential guard…. it looks like they’re securing major government buildings…. my guess is coup.
| 185 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:44:08am |
re: #173 darthstar
Wow…today’s the 25th anniversary of the Challenger disaster. It’s hard to believe it’s been that long already.
I remember watching the launch in high school. I still remember the shock, horror, and disbelief of my classmates when the tragedy happened. Such a dark day, it was.
| 186 |
darthstar Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:45:00am |
Entire Senate Tea Party Caucus (plus Ensign) stands strong against rule change on secret holds - but they were the only four…it passed 92-4
DeMint (R-SC)
Ensign (R-NV)
Lee (R-UT)
Paul (R-KY)
| 187 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:45:28am |
re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist
No, I don’t think he does.
Now, will you please explain to me why we’ve been giving this brutal dictatorship such a lot of foreign aid for so many years?
OK…. Who do you think started it? As I understand it started during the Camp David Accords. Can you remember who was president then?
| 188 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:46:09am |
| 189 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:46:46am |
| 190 |
Kragar (Antichrist ) Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:47:00am |
re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist
I guess it has been. I was in seventh grade, IIRC.
Junior High, 7th or 8th grade, I forget exactly.
| 192 |
jaunte Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:47:24am |
Reuters photos from Egypt protests:
[Link: totallycoolpix.com…]
| 193 |
Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:47:52am |
re: #177 lawhawk
Not an analogy, but serious jitters about losing control over the Suez Canal.
| 194 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:48:13am |
re: #187 Buck
OK… Who do you think started it? As I understand it started during the Camp David Accords. Can you remember who was president then?
Anwar al-Sadat, IIRC.
| 195 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:49:14am |
re: #194 SanFranciscoZionist
Anwar al-Sadat, IIRC.
OK, avoid the obvious…
And who was President of the US? I somehow remember him getting a Nobel Peace Prize for it…
| 197 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:49:57am |
re: #193 ralphieboy
Not an analogy, but serious jitters about losing control over the Suez Canal.
Twelve army tanks and numerous troop carriers moving into Port Said…
| 198 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:50:13am |
re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist
No, I don’t think he does.
Now, will you please explain to me why we’ve been giving this brutal dictatorship such a lot of foreign aid for so many years?
Same reason we’ve done it in every other case? Because its in our (and our allies) geopolitical self-interest to maintain relations with these leaders, for a variety of security, military, economic and resource related reasons?
| 200 |
Political Atheist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:51:25am |
Looks like NDP HQ is cooked, looted and done.
| 201 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:51:28am |
re: #178 SanFranciscoZionist
No, I don’t think he does.
Now, will you please explain to me why we’ve been giving this brutal dictatorship such a lot of foreign aid for so many years?
to protect Israel
| 202 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:53:52am |
re: #198 Alexzander
Same reason we’ve done it in every other case? Because its in our (and our allies) geopolitical self-interest to maintain relations with these leaders, for a variety of security, military, economic and resource related reasons?
You mean like with Saddam? Noreiga?
| 203 |
Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:53:56am |
re: #201 albusteve
to protect Israel
Are we protecting Israel for Israel’s sake, or for our own foreign policy/internal policy interests?
| 204 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:53:58am |
re: #195 Buck
OK, avoid the obvious…
And who was President of the US? I somehow remember him getting a Nobel Peace Prize for it…
So we’re going to blame Carter for this? Okay, why not?
Now, explain why. Are you saying that peace between Israel and Egypt was a bad thing, or that it was bound to lead to repression in Egypt?
What do you think administrations since Carter should have done about Mubarak?
| 205 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:54:25am |
re: #198 Alexzander
Same reason we’ve done it in every other case? Because its in our (and our allies) geopolitical self-interest to maintain relations with these leaders, for a variety of security, military, economic and resource related reasons?
Yeah, that was sorta my point.
| 206 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:55:02am |
Egyptian military not enforcing curfew, NBC News’ Richard Engel reports.
That’s huge.
| 207 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:55:13am |
re: #203 oaktree
Are we protecting Israel for Israel’s sake, or for our own foreign policy/internal policy interests?
it’s all the same….we pay off Egypt to stick to the Accords
| 208 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:55:23am |
re: #198 Alexzander
Same reason we’ve done it in every other case? Because its in our (and our allies) geopolitical self-interest to maintain relations with these leaders, for a variety of security, military, economic and resource related reasons?
The Shah of Iran?
| 209 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:55:40am |
re: #201 albusteve
to protect Israel
In part, yeah.
We propped up Mubarak, and we propped up Saddam, and we propped up the Saudis—this is Middle East policy, boys and girls.
| 210 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:55:41am |
re: #206 lawhawk
Egyptian military not enforcing curfew, NBC News’ Richard Engel reports.
That’s huge.
game over…..TA DAAAA!
| 211 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:57:16am |
re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist
In part, yeah.
We propped up Mubarak, and we propped up Saddam, and we propped up the Saudis—this is Middle East policy, boys and girls.
Israel is the other half of the Accords….as for the others, not the same at all
| 212 |
PhillyPretzel Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:57:50am |
re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist
I forgot the sarc tag with #196.
| 213 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:57:51am |
re: #171 ralphieboy
Younger than that (barely) but I recall studying it.
I was 12, and very aware of it.
| 214 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:57:55am |
How come stuff like this never seems to happen in Syria, or Saddam’s Iraq?
/rhetorical
| 215 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:57:59am |
re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist
So we’re going to blame Carter for this? Okay, why not?
Now, explain why. Are you saying that peace between Israel and Egypt was a bad thing, or that it was bound to lead to repression in Egypt?
What do you think administrations since Carter should have done about Mubarak?
First of all it was you who was asking why. The answer is certainly the deal made by Carter.
Subsequent administrations would have had to live with the deal he made. However, there is a chance that this is NOT going to be allowed by the people of Egypt to just change from one tyrant to another. It just might be the moment when another ME country embraces true democracy. This just might be one pf the dominos falling.
| 216 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:59:32am |
re: #215 Buck
Why would subsequent administrations have to live with the deal he made? Did Carter say ‘no backsies’?
| 217 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 10:59:43am |
re: #215 Buck
First of all it was you who was asking why. The answer is certainly the deal made by Carter.
Subsequent administrations would have had to live with the deal he made. However, there is a chance that this is NOT going to be allowed by the people of Egypt to just change from one tyrant to another. It just might be the moment when another ME country embraces true democracy. This just might be one pf the dominos falling.
Your optimism is optimistic. God grant you might be right.
| 218 |
Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:00:41am |
re: #207 albusteve
it’s all the same…we pay off Egypt to stick to the Accords
But if push comes to shove according to the interests of the US Israel or Egypt (or anyone else) would go under the figurative bus in a flash, would they not?
(Debate, of course, would be what sort of crisis would lead the US government to make such a decision since many would question the wisdom of making such a move without some supreme challenge looming.)
| 219 |
recusancy Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:01:00am |
re: #216 Obdicut
Why would subsequent administrations have to live with the deal he made? Did Carter say ‘no backsies’?
He’s tying himself in knots trying to get a hit in on Biden and Carter.
| 220 |
Alexzander Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:01:22am |
re: #208 Talking Point Detective
The Shah of Iran?
Yes, and Saddam, Noriega, Pinochet, Mobutu, Baby Doc, Suharto, Batista and many others. I’m not saying I agree with this, I was just explaining why the US does it (at least, my understanding of why the US does it).
| 221 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:02:30am |
re: #219 recusancy
He’s tying himself in knots trying to get a hit in on Biden and Carter.
Not at all.
| 222 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:02:55am |
re: #216 Obdicut
Why would subsequent administrations have to live with the deal he made? Did Carter say ‘no backsies’?
it’s a legitimate US/Israel/Egypt agreement….everybody benefits and I see no reason to frame the question of ‘having to live with it’…Buck’s thing that is
| 223 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:03:08am |
This is the conflict we’ve been facing for years. Do we back the autocratic regime that will play ball with us, or do we allow the people to democratically elect a foaming-at-the-mouth theocratic regime that won’t play ball with us?
Middle East policy is fun!!
| 224 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:03:24am |
I certainly hope this leads to a tolerant/liberal democracy in Egypt, but the track record in the Middle East is not promising. I’m hoping they surprise us and exceed our/my expectations. At this point about all we can do is hope, anyway.
| 225 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:03:32am |
re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist
In part, yeah.
We propped up Mubarak, and we propped up Saddam, and we propped up the Saudis—this is Middle East policy, boys and girls.
We propped up these regimes because the alternatives were either worse or simply not there.
Factor in the reality that these nations have known nothing but strong arm regimes and that often the opposition parties are no different (think Muslim Brotherhood) or worse.
It’s nice to think the alternatives to these regimes would be a healthy democracy, but that just isn’t the case.
Consider Iraq. We handed over a blank slate to the Iraqis, funded that nation and so far all we have to show for it are a myriad of groups trying to strong arm their way into power.
There are no easy answers.
| 226 |
simoom Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:03:41am |
Leaked Cables Show US Pressure On, Cooperation With, Repressive Egyptian Government
Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has been a critical ally for the U.S. in standing against Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons program, in recognizing the Iraqi government, and in trying to broker peace between the Israelis and Paliestinians. Behind the scenes, officials say, the Obama administration has pushed Mubarak to get ahead of the strengthening democracy movement in his country.Recent cables obtained by Wikileaks seem to back up claims of pressure, U.S. concerns about Egypt, and a strong alliance. An anecdote-filled January 2009 missive from Scobey detailed how police brutality in Egypt is “routine and pervasive,” including brutality against “demonstrators, certain political prisoners and unfortunate bystanders.”
The brutality against political opponents has decreased, she wrote, but “security forces still resort to torturing Muslim Brotherhood activists who are deemed to pose a political threat.” The Egyptian government, she wrote, “has not yet made a serious effort to transform the police from an instrument of regime power into a public service institution.”
…
Scobey told Mueller that the “Egyptian government’s active opposition to Islamist terrorism and effective intelligence and security services makes Egypt an unattractive safe haven for terror groups.” But she noted that some of the reason for that was rooted in the “Egyptian government’s far-reaching powers in the realm of counter-terrorism come from a broad-reaching Emergency Law, which has been in force almost continuously since 1967.”That Emergency Law is not only “used to target violent Islamic extremist groups,” Scobey wrote, but also “to target political activity by the Muslim Brotherhood, writers, activists and others.”
…
| 227 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:04:31am |
re: #222 albusteve
it’s a legitimate US/Israel/Egypt agreement…everybody benefits and I see no reason to frame the question of ‘having to live with it’…Buck’s thing that is
I’m in favor, certainly. I just don’t know if the Camp David Accords are gonna live out the week.
| 228 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:05:03am |
re: #223 SanFranciscoZionist
This is the conflict we’ve been facing for years. Do we back the autocratic regime that will play ball with us, or do we allow the people to democratically elect a foaming-at-the-mouth theocratic regime that won’t play ball with us?
Middle East policy is fun!!
My belief is that I would rather a democratic leader who hates us to a tyrant who likes us.
| 229 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:05:18am |
re: #218 oaktree
But if push comes to shove according to the interests of the US Israel or Egypt (or anyone else) would go under the figurative bus in a flash, would they not?
(Debate, of course, would be what sort of crisis would lead the US government to make such a decision since many would question the wisdom of making such a move without some supreme challenge looming.)
maybe if the MB rose to power, the paradigm could change…other than that I see no reason to junk the CD Accords
| 230 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:05:28am |
| 231 |
recusancy Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:06:11am |
re: #228 Buck
My belief is that I would rather a democratic leader who hates us to a tyrant who likes us.
So you like Hamas?
| 232 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:06:38am |
re: #228 Buck
My belief is that I would rather a democratic leader who hates us to a tyrant who likes us.
There are no democratic leaders in the Arab world and there no serious contenders in the wings.
| 233 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:06:59am |
re: #220 Alexzander
Yes, and Saddam, Noriega, Pinochet, Mobutu, Baby Doc, Suharto, Batista and many others. I’m not saying I agree with this, I was just explaining why the US does it (at least, my understanding of why the US does it).
Fair enough - the explanation of “self-interest” was what was offered, no doubt. But I think it’s also fair to say that explaining that we supported the folks on that list out of self-interest is a bit facile.
| 234 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:11:39am |
Protesters swarm Egyptian military tank
| 235 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:11:45am |
re: #227 SanFranciscoZionist
I’m in favor, certainly. I just don’t know if the Camp David Accords are gonna live out the week.
It’s interesting, isn’t it, that as far as we’ve heard, no one’s claimed Zionism or the peace accords as a reason for hating Mubarak. Egyptians may not like Israel, but I think they have other priorities for the present.
The diplomatic agenda could change under a new regime, which may choose not to facilitate talks between the Palestinians and Israel, or support America’s efforts.
There is no major threat of Egyptian invasion. Most of Egypt’s weapons systems are American and we can probably shut them down or at least not resupply them.
What happens on the border with Israel and Gaza if there is loss of central authority is a bigger concern for Israel.
| 236 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:11:50am |
re: #225 researchok
We propped up these regimes because the alternatives were either worse or simply not there….It’s nice to think the alternatives to these regimes would be a healthy democracy, but that just isn’t the case.
Just to clarify - was their also “no alternative” to supporting the overthrow of a democratically-elected administration to install an autocrat in Iran?
| 237 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:12:20am |
re: #230 SanFranciscoZionist
Sure there are. It was Jimmy Carter’s fault.
And Reagan and Clinton and Kissinger and Nixon and Johnson and Kennedy and Eisenhower…
Fact is, these regimes are all home grown.
This isn’t Eastern Europe in 1989. Those people wanted freedom.
In the Middle East today, they want change- and there are already groups in the wings who will exploit that.
| 238 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:12:46am |
re: #231 recusancy
So you like Hamas?
That’s the key problem. The difference between ‘democratically elected’ and ‘behaving democratically in office’.
| 239 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:12:59am |
re: #216 Obdicut
I wonder just how many people here have actually read the Camp David Accords and the Egypt-Israel peace treaty (and the various annexes). My guess? A very small percentage of people.
Even fewer probably understand what went into making that happen.
| 240 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:13:33am |
re: #236 Talking Point Detective
Just to clarify - was their also “no alternative” to supporting the overthrow of a democratically-elected administration to install an autocrat in Iran?
Right- democratically elected means a government is legit.
You know, like Hamas
| 241 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:13:40am |
re: #231 recusancy
So you like Hamas?
I do not believe that Hamas was democratically elected, but given that… they have failed to follow through with regular elections, and therefore are not truly democratic.
Do you think that Hamas is democratic?
| 242 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:14:43am |
re: #225 researchok
Consider Iraq. We handed over a blank slate to the Iraqis,…
The mind boggles. You actually think that post-invasion Iraq is a “blank slate?”
| 243 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:14:46am |
re: #235 transient
It’s interesting, isn’t it, that as far as we’ve heard, no one’s claimed Zionism or the peace accords as a reason for hating Mubarak. Egyptians may not like Israel, but I think they have other priorities for the present.
The diplomatic agenda could change under a new regime, which may choose not to facilitate talks between the Palestinians and Israel, or support America’s efforts.
There is no major threat of Egyptian invasion. Most of Egypt’s weapons systems are American and we can probably shut them down or at least not resupply them.
What happens on the border with Israel and Gaza if there is loss of central authority is a bigger concern for Israel.
Local anti-Israel groups (local to me in California that is), and elsewhere in the States, are turning out to ‘support the Egyptian people’, by which they mostly mean ‘denounce the Zionist patsy Mubarak’.
But yeah, the border is going to be the hot issue.
| 244 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:15:36am |
re: #239 lawhawk
I wonder just how many people here have actually read the Camp David Accords and the Egypt-Israel peace treaty (and the various annexes). My guess? A very small percentage of people.
Even fewer probably understand what went into making that happen.
No, but I did sleep at the Bob Hope hotel.
| 245 |
abaleh Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:15:36am |
re: #215 Buck
Another ME country? there are democracies here?
| 246 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:15:54am |
re: #235 transient
Israel could lose its access to oil it normally obtains from the Sinai oil fields, which supplies a considerable percentage of Israel’s imports. Control of the Israel/Gaza/Sinai border is going to be a major concern if Mubarak is overthrown, but there isn’t much that Israel can do about it other than strengthen its border protections and find other sources of oil/energy to rely upon.
| 247 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:16:10am |
re: #233 Talking Point Detective
Fair enough - the explanation of “self-interest” was what was offered, no doubt. But I think it’s also fair to say that explaining that we supported the folks on that list out of self-interest is a bit facile.
we support Mu and the Accords in favor of Israel…it’s common knowledge. no subterfuge or hidden agendas
| 248 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:16:17am |
re: #245 abaleh
Another ME country? there are democracies here?
Yes, there are. In the middle east? Certainly.
| 249 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:17:14am |
That Hamas was democratically elected is irrelevant.
Hitler came to power by way of manipulating the democratic process.
Had we bombed Berlin in 1939 and eradicated the Nazi leadership, up to 50 million lives might have been saved.
And if mentioning the Holocaust is offensive to some, up to 44 million lives would have been saved.
| 250 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:17:46am |
re: #239 lawhawk
I wonder just how many people here have actually read the Camp David Accords and the Egypt-Israel peace treaty (and the various annexes). My guess? A very small percentage of people.
Even fewer probably understand what went into making that happen.
and a legit Nobel awarded to the participants….and it’s a cheap investment we make for our Jewish friends
| 251 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:17:58am |
re: #240 researchok
Right- democratically elected means a government is legit.
You know, like Hamas
Hamas has a lot of political support.
The answer to that is to work on changing how and why they get that support, not installing autocrats who rule against the will of the population. In addition to not working, it leaves us with zero credibility.
How well did it work installing the Shah in Iran?
| 252 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:18:34am |
re: #242 Talking Point Detective
The mind boggles. You actually think that post-invasion Iraq is a “blank slate?”
Yes, it was- and as you say, the mind boggles if you think otherwise.
| 253 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:19:35am |
re: #236 Talking Point Detective
Just to clarify - was their also “no alternative” to supporting the overthrow of a democratically-elected administration to install an autocrat in Iran?
the CIA fucked up…history doesn’t lie and what happened afterward is the result….you win a few, you lose a few
| 254 |
abaleh Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:20:12am |
| 255 |
recusancy Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:20:16am |
re: #252 researchok
Yes, it was- and as you say, the mind boggles if you think otherwise.
A blank slate would be: no history, no grudges, no tribalism. So no it wasn’t a blank slate.
| 256 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:20:27am |
re: #249 researchok
That Hamas was democratically elected is irrelevant.
Hitler came to power by way of manipulating the democratic process.
Had we bombed Berlin in 1939 and eradicated the Nazi leadership, up to 50 million lives might have been saved.
And if mentioning the Holocaust is offensive to some, up to 44 million lives would have been saved.
Maybe. But maybe it would have so antagonized Germany that they would have concentrated on attacking Western Europe and the US, and never gone to war with the Soviet Union. Furthermore, in 1939 we didn’t have the capacity to bomb Berlin.
Such speculation is absolutely foolish. And Hitler didn’t rise through the democratic process, manipulating it or otherwise, but by taking advantage of the non-democratic portions of the process. The problem was that Germany’s government wasn’t sufficiently democratic.
| 257 |
First As Tragedy, Then As Farce Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:20:44am |
re: #234 000G
“This video contains content from CNN (Europe), who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.”
Well, as long as somebody is making a buck. That’s the important thing.
| 258 |
Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:20:56am |
re: #251 Talking Point Detective
Hamas has a lot of political support.
The answer to that is to work on changing how and why they get that support, not installing autocrats who rule against the will of the population. In addition to not working, it leaves us with zero credibility.
How well did it work installing the Shah in Iran?
And given how high *our* founding documents are on self-determination it’s a bit of a “do as we say, not as we do” when it comes to our foreign policy.
That English (and US) foreign policy is fairly hypocritical along these lines is something that is pointed out quite often both now and in the past.
| 259 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:21:01am |
re: #251 Talking Point Detective
Hamas has a lot of political support.
The answer to that is to work on changing how and why they get that support, not installing autocrats who rule against the will of the population. In addition to not working, it leaves us with zero credibility.
How well did it work installing the Shah in Iran?
Yes, Hamas has a lot of political support.
So what? The KKK has political support as well- and you would be hard pressed to distinguish between them and Hamas.
Further, where are the democrats in Egypt? The Muslim Brotherhood are the only legitimate contenders in Egypt.
Then again, maybe we ought to install Mr Rogers.
| 260 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:21:16am |
re: #251 Talking Point Detective
Hamas has a lot of political support.
I really don’t know how we could ever measure that. Gaza is a closed society, and the use of sham courts and political assassinations is common.
| 261 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:21:20am |
re: #240 researchok
Right- democratically elected means a government is legit.
You know, like Hamas
and hey…Chavez was elected too
| 262 |
abaleh Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:22:17am |
| 263 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:22:56am |
re: #255 recusancy
A blank slate would be: no history, no grudges, no tribalism. So no it wasn’t a blank slate.
We gave them every opportunity to build a democratic nation.
You are right to note the baggage they carry is most heavy.
The same applied to the Palestinians- their political leaders have made stated genocide their goal. That too is unlikely to change.
| 264 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:23:20am |
re: #246 lawhawk
IIRC, supplying oil/ gas is part of the Camp David Accords. Not a popular part of it, but Egypt has so far kept the deal. If Egypt wants to ditch the accords entirely they might have a problem, not that the US has been uniformly insistent on Arabs keeping their agreements with Israel.
I’m sure Iran would be happy to fill any funding gaps left by the US. But then the Iranian people wouldn’t be very happy about that, either, since their economy is already in the trash.
A few more variables than even a chess master is likely to be able to handle.
Marvelously unpredictable.
| 265 |
jordash1212 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:23:47am |
Just because Hamas was voted in democratically does not make them a democratic party. Ever heard the phrase “one man, one vote, one time?”
| 266 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:24:00am |
| 267 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:24:15am |
re: #261 albusteve
and hey…Chavez was elected too
I actually said democratic leader, not democratically elected leader. I know the difference.
| 268 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:24:44am |
re: #249 researchok
Had we bombed Berlin in 1939 and eradicated the Nazi leadership, up to 50 million lives might have been saved.
Non-sequitur much?
Manipulating electoral processes is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the most common means for oppressive autocrats to attain power.
Electoral processes do not, by definition, create repressive regimes. Installing autocrats because some see it to be in our “best interests” does.
| 269 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:25:22am |
re: #253 albusteve
the CIA fucked up…history doesn’t lie and what happened afterward is the result…you win a few, you lose a few
Where have we “won” by installing an autocrat?
| 270 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:25:38am |
re: #256 Obdicut
Maybe. But maybe it would have so antagonized Germany that they would have concentrated on attacking Western Europe and the US, and never gone to war with the Soviet Union. Furthermore, in 1939 we didn’t have the capacity to bomb Berlin.
Such speculation is absolutely foolish. And Hitler didn’t rise through the democratic process, manipulating it or otherwise, but by taking advantage of the non-democratic portions of the process. The problem was that Germany’s government wasn’t sufficiently democratic.
50 million souls are worth a serious conversation.
And even if you are right (and I disagree), the lesson ought to be obvious- racists and bigots, even if democratically elected, are not legitimate regimes.
All it means is those who voted for them are racists and bigots.
| 271 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:26:24am |
re: #265 jordash1212
Just because Hamas was voted in democratically does not make them a democratic party. Ever heard the phrase “one man, one vote, one time?”
Hamas is a terrorist org, plain and simple….how they came to power in their little hell hole doesn’t matter to anyone but them…and the UN, their butt buddy
| 272 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:26:24am |
And I’m supposed to go to Egypt on vacation in a couple of weeks.
What to do, what to do….
| 274 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:28:09am |
re: #269 Talking Point Detective
Where have we “won” by installing an autocrat?
beats me….winning is relative, what’s the point again?
| 275 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:28:58am |
re: #272 transient
And I’m supposed to go to Egypt on vacation in a couple of weeks.
What to do, what to do…
Check the State Department website. That’s what my dad always does.
Where are you headed?
| 276 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:29:41am |
re: #252 researchok
Yes, it was- and as you say, the mind boggles if you think otherwise.
Cities that are ethnically-cleansed is a “blank slate?” Destroyed infrastructure, lack of access to water and electricity, millions living outside the country as refugees, the infusion of jihadis….. “blank slate?”
Really?
| 277 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:31:13am |
re: #272 transient
And I’m supposed to go to Egypt on vacation in a couple of weeks.
What to do, what to do…
hit Vegas and stay at the Luxor….problem solved
| 278 |
Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:32:17am |
re: #270 researchok
50 million souls are worth a serious conversation..
Speculating about ‘what-ifs’ in that manner is not a serious conversation.
And even if you are right (and I disagree), the lesson ought to be obvious- racists and bigots, even if democratically elected, are not legitimate regimes.
So the US wasn’t a legitimate nation up until the 1960s?
| 279 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:33:57am |
re: #274 albusteve
beats me…winning is relative, what’s the point again?
Where have we “relatively won” by installing or supporting an autocratic government?
| 280 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:34:40am |
re: #279 Talking Point Detective
Where have we “relatively won” by installing or supporting an autocratic government?
why do you keep asking me that?
| 281 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:36:02am |
Not seeing any “death to Israel” or “death to America” in the video, or in the twitter feeds….
| 282 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:36:05am |
re: #275 SanFranciscoZionist
Check the State Department website. That’s what my dad always does.
Where are you headed?
Headed to all the usual tourist sites. As far as I can tell, the Egyptian Museum is the one big question mark as it’s close to a major protest site. I echo lawhawk in his hope that the museum is preserved because there are priceless historical treasures there.
I did try checking the consular sheet but couldn’t get it to load. Maybe they’ve been overloaded in the past days. As of yesterday there was no major warning about Egypt, but you are probably aware that the US gov is loath to warn people away from allied destinations unless there is egregious danger.
Saw a Jpost headline that Cairo Air is cancelling flights out of Cairo…that’s ominous.
But the situation could be totally different in 2 weeks…for better or worse. My trip is brief but I hope for the sake of those who live there 24/7/365 it turns out well.
| 283 |
Talking Point Detective Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:37:20am |
re: #280 albusteve
why do you keep asking me that?
Oh. Sorry. I thought you said “you win a few and you lose a few,” and “winning is relative.”
Must have been that other albusteve.
| 284 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:37:41am |
re: #277 albusteve
hit Vegas and stay at the Luxor…problem solved
Ya know, after all the storms that’ve hit the Northeast I’d stay in a damn Cairo hotel room for a week as long as it was 70 degrees and no snow.
| 285 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:37:43am |
re: #276 Talking Point Detective
Cities that are ethnically-cleansed is a “blank slate?” Destroyed infrastructure, lack of access to water and electricity, millions living outside the country as refugees, the infusion of jihadis… “blank slate?”
Really?
Yes, they were given a blank slate, to start over again. Every opportunity to establish a democratic state was available to them.
Instead, we got more of the same.
| 286 |
Ericus58 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:39:47am |
#
1938: Abu Aardvark tweets: “Anybody else hear that Mubarak address canceled due to ‘sudden illness’? Trying to confirm.”
| 287 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:39:48am |
re: #282 transient
1908: : The US advisory to its citizens in Egypt urges people to stay in their homes or hotels during their demonstrations, and to exercise caution, Reuters reports. It warns them not to try and travel to the US embassy in Cairo, noting security forces may block off the area.
| 288 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:39:56am |
Things could change at a moment’s notice so I will wait til the last minute to decide. But I’ll probably go.
| 289 |
jordash1212 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:40:47am |
re: #285 researchok
Giving a country with as much sectarian strife as Iraq a blank slate and asking for immediate democracy is absurd.
| 290 |
PhillyPretzel Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:41:02am |
re: #286 Ericus58
sudden illness? Hmm saving his skin?//
| 291 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:41:26am |
re: #289 jordash1212
Giving a country with as much sectarian strife as Iraq a blank slate and asking for immediate democracy is absurd.
Perhaps- but how are any of the other Arab regimes any different?
| 292 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:41:51am |
re: #287 lawhawk
1908: : The US advisory to its citizens in Egypt urges people to stay in their homes or hotels during their demonstrations, and to exercise caution, Reuters reports. It warns them not to try and travel to the US embassy in Cairo, noting security forces may block off the area.
Very sensible. I wish the people well but have no desire to join in demonstrations or be tear gassed.
| 293 |
jordash1212 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:41:57am |
re: #291 researchok
They don’t have three different religious and ethnic groups vying for power.
| 294 |
SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:42:29am |
re: #290 PhillyPretzel
sudden illness? Hmm saving his skin?//
“I’m sick of having these damn protesters yell ‘Mubarak out!’.”
| 295 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:42:37am |
re: #285 researchok
Yes, they were given a blank slate, to start over again. Every opportunity to establish a democratic state was available to them.
Instead, we got more of the same.
It’s not over yet. Until then, everything else that happens is just progress.
| 296 |
Ericus58 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:42:46am |
The regime of Mubarak has ended. The Army will assume control in the interim.
Failing to address the Nation in the first 4 days of unrest was the final nail. Not only did no government official take a leadership role and address the country, but the President himself allowed his reign of power end.
| 297 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:43:16am |
re: #283 Talking Point Detective
Oh. Sorry. I thought you said “you win a few and you lose a few,” and “winning is relative.”
Must have been that other albusteve.
your constant pursuit of argument bores me….
hint: beats me is a euphemism for I don’t know
| 298 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:43:41am |
re: #295 Buck
It’s not over yet. Until then, everything else that happens is just progress.
On that I absolutely agree.
| 299 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:43:51am |
Al-Jaz: “Protesters are protecting museum in Cairo after nearby building is torched.”
| 301 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:45:05am |
re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist
“I’m sick of having these damn protesters yell ‘Mubarak out!’.”
he’s doing his last minute laundry…money wires take time to organize
| 302 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:45:53am |
re: #296 Ericus58
The regime of Mubarak has ended. The Army will assume control in the interim.
Failing to address the Nation in the first 4 days of unrest was the final nail. Not only did no government official take a leadership role and address the country, but the President himself allowed his reign of power end.
Could be- though it bears remembering the military has been the power force in Egypt for decades. Mubarak came from the military and he enjoyed their support.
How the military plays this out will be interesting to watch. I suspect we are in touch with them, looking for continuity.
| 303 |
jordash1212 Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:45:53am |
re: #301 albusteve
If he does it right, he’ll be rich and in exile.
| 304 |
PhillyPretzel Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:45:58am |
re: #301 albusteve
Bearer bonds take a while to pack./
| 306 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:47:10am |
AJ: “Protesters form human shield to protect Cairo museum from being looted.”
| 307 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:47:36am |
re: #302 researchok
Sadat came from the military. So too did Nasser. Mubarak was Sadat’s vice president at the time when Sadat was assassinated.
If the military moves to send Mubarak packing, that probably means that the military has picked his successor - another general.
| 308 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:47:49am |
[Link: totallycoolpix.com…]
| 309 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:48:00am |
Democracy is difficult and anyone who expects to achieve a fully functional democracy overnight is probably delusional. It took the US over 500 year from Magna Carta. It took France about 100 years from the Revolution, even with America as inspiration. Russia has retrogressed.
People living under dictatorships often have mistaken ideas of what democracy means and the extent of responsibility they bear. voting is a wonderful thing, but it will not produce bread during famine, it will not create jobs.
Democracy ain’t perfect, but it sure as heck beats the other options. (Liberally paraphrasing Churchill.)
| 310 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:48:11am |
re: #294 SanFranciscoZionist
“I’m sick of having these damn protesters yell ‘Mubarak out!’.”
Better than “Death to Israel!”
| 311 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:48:26am |
re: #303 jordash1212
If he does it right, he’ll be rich and in exile.
tomorrow night he will be dining with Mrs. Arafat…grooving on the good old days when they were killing Jews…ah, old times
| 312 |
Buck Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:48:40am |
re: #309 transient
Democracy is difficult and anyone who expects to achieve a fully functional democracy overnight is probably delusional. It took the US over 500 year from Magna Carta. It took France about 100 years from the Revolution, even with America as inspiration. Russia has retrogressed.
People living under dictatorships often have mistaken ideas of what democracy means and the extent of responsibility they bear. voting is a wonderful thing, but it will not produce bread during famine, it will not create jobs.
Democracy ain’t perfect, but it sure as heck beats the other options. (Liberally paraphrasing Churchill.)
I wish you one hundred updings.
| 315 |
albusteve Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:50:56am |
re: #313 PhillyPretzel
Most likely the case.
very predictable…I called it early this morning
ba da boom!
| 316 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:54:43am |
re: #307 lawhawk
If the military moves to send Mubarak packing, that probably means that the military has picked his successor - another general.
One can only hope that the military recognizes that times have changed, and they are willing to institute some serious reforms.
| 317 |
lawhawk Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:54:48am |
re: #308 000G
FYI - there are some quite graphic photos that aren’t for the faint of heart in that feed, including several of protesters who were shot and killed by security forces.
| 318 |
researchok Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:54:57am |
Report: Egyptian authorities mulling ‘transitional gov’t’
Arabic media sources on Friday night reported that Egyptian authorities are holding talks to establish a “transitional government,” following a series of protests against President Hosni Mubarak’s regime.
At least five people and nearly 900 were injured across Egypt in the recent wave of protests on Friday.
| 320 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:57:20am |
AJ: “Intense gunfire is heard around government buildings in Cairo.”
| 321 |
transient Fri, Jan 28, 2011 11:58:39am |
[Updated 2:25 p.m. (2125 in Egypt)] Delta Airlines tells CNN it will have a flight departing Cairo on Saturday and then suspend service to the Egyptian capital indefinitely as a result of the civil unrest.
[Updated 2:03 p.m. (2103 in Egypt)] The U.S. State Department has issued a travel alert regarding the unrest in Egypt. It cites disrupted travel between cities and the government’s interruption of internet and cell phone service. “Given this situation, the Department of State urges U.S. citizens to defer non-essential travel to Egypt at this time and advises U.S. citizens currently in Egypt to defer non-essential movement and to exercise caution,” the alert states.
| 322 |
Stanley Sea Fri, Jan 28, 2011 12:00:36pm |
[Link: theatlantic.tumblr.com…]
The most subversive protest of all: An Egyptian protester kisses a riot police officer.
| 323 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Jan 28, 2011 12:02:26pm |
re: #322 Stanley Sea
[Link: theatlantic.tumblr.com…]
The most subversive protest of all: An Egyptian protester kisses a riot police officer.
Unless that’s his mother, it’s “Game Over”.
| 324 |
PhillyPretzel Fri, Jan 28, 2011 12:15:20pm |
WH briefing on Egypt. I can’t figure out how to get the video feed. I think I have to have another password or something.
| 325 |
PhillyPretzel Fri, Jan 28, 2011 12:17:55pm |
[Link: interactive.foxbusiness.com…]
WH briefing on Egypt
| 326 |
ryannon Fri, Jan 28, 2011 12:26:12pm |
AJ: “Police appear to be absent from key positions in Cairo as protesters continue.”
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