Anti-Science GOP Trying to Kill the Webb Space Telescope

The Republican Party’s total war on science

PoliticsJuly 2011 • Views: 28,425

You’ve got to be kidding me.

One of America’s greatest, grandest scientific successes — and possibly one of the biggest scientific successes of all time — has been the Hubble Space Telescope. It has expanded our knowledge of the universe in ways that no one could ever have imagined.

NASA has been working on the next generation of this revolutionary device, the James Webb Space Telescope, for years. Billions of dollars have already been spent. The Webb Telescope will orbit in deep space, and send back images from the very dawn of time, looking farther and deeper into the universe than ever before.

And now the Republican Party is trying to kill the project: Nasa fights to save the James Webb space telescope from the axe.

Last week the US House of Representatives’ appropriations committee on commerce, justice, and science decided that it had had enough of these escalating costs and moved to cancel the project by stripping $1.9bn from Nasa’s budget for next year.

A terse statement, released by the Republican-dominated committee, said that the project “is billions of dollars over budget and plagued by poor management”. The decision still has to be approved by the full appropriations committee, the House and the Senate. Nevertheless, analysts say the telescope now faces a struggle to survive.

Not surprisingly, the move to scrap the telescope, which has been under construction since 2004 and is named after a former Nasa administrator, has horrified astronomers. The James Webb was intended to be the centrepiece of astronomical research for the next two decades. Its segmented mirror would be almost three times the diameter of the Hubble telescope’s, and because it would orbit outside Earth’s atmosphere it would be able to make observations of unprecedented accuracy. This would allow it to capture images from a time when the first stars and galaxies lit up the universe.

Tod Lauer, of the National Optical Astronomy Observatory in Tucson, said: “[Cancellation] would be an unmitigated disaster for cosmology. After two decades of pushing the Hubble to its limits, which has revolutionised astronomy, the next step would be to pack up and give up. The Hubble is just good enough to see what we’re missing at the start of time.” The James Webb would be able to fill in those gaps, he added.

The Republican Party is deliberately sabotaging America’s future. This is truly horrifying.

Also see

Why You Need to Help Save the James Webb Space Telescope

Jump to bottom

135 comments

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:13:58pm

NASA has been working on the next generation of this revolutionary device, the James Webb Space Telescope, for years. Billions of dollars have already been spent. The Webb Telescope will orbit in deep space, and send back images from the very dawn of time, looking farther and deeper into the universe than ever before.

Yes, but it won't find Jesus, and is therefore useless.
/

Political Atheist Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:14:23pm

What's next de-funding asteroid tracking? Oh, just underfunded it.

Weather sats? Ditto.

dragonfire1981 Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:16:42pm

Yep this is definitely going to help the U.S. stay competitive with China.

And create jobs too!

albusteve Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:17:41pm

the Jindal Syndrome...
where is the blowback?

Hal_10000 Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:18:08pm

To be fair, JWST *is* way overbudget and well behind schedule. An article earlier this year described it as NASA's Hurricane Katrina -- and that was Alan Boss, an astronomer, who called it that. It's been gobbling up a lot of the science budget and was eventually split off. That's practically hanging out a "cut me" sign.

That having been said, I'd hate to see it killed. I'd especially hate to see it killed and have the money just disappear from the NASA budget. Whatever else one can say about NASA, the science programs have been extremely successful and usually way over-performed their mission spec. I'm all in favor of budget cutting, but this is not the place I'd start. If this were a defense project, the cost over-runs would just prove how vital it is.

(Disclosure: I work for a NASA contractor.)

Jdorfma4 Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:18:17pm

We should all live in filth and ignorance lest we suffer the hell of a 2% mariginal tax increase on the upper 1%!

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:19:28pm

We ditched a super collider after $12B into it as well. Now some other country(s) will get to reap the benefits of early discovery.

And once again, we have 'evil foreigners' doing the jobs that Americans refuse to do.
/

albusteve Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:20:51pm

re: #7 Slumbering Behemoth

We ditched a super collider after $12B into it as well. Now some other country(s) will get to reap the benefits of early discovery.

And once again, we have 'evil foreigners' doing the jobs that Americans refuse to do.
/

we ditched Yucca Mt after a few billion was spent on it

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:21:31pm

Future historian:
"The American Experiment reached its pinnacle at precisely 19:24:59 UTC on December 19, 1972. We can rarely place the beginning of a decline so accurately."

(Translated from the Chinese by Won Hung Lo.)

Political Atheist Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:21:34pm

Expecting breakthrough technology to come in at or under budget is about like expecting Michelle Bachmann to make sense. Might happen from time to time but do not hold your breath.

recusancy Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:22:28pm

re: #10 Rightwingconspirator

Expecting breakthrough technology to come in at or under budget is about like expecting Michelle Bachmann to make sense. Might happen from time to time but do not hold your breath.

This.

Political Atheist Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:22:37pm

re: #8 albusteve

At least the hole and the mountain is still there...
///

albusteve Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:23:08pm

re: #10 Rightwingconspirator

Expecting breakthrough technology to come in at or under budget is about like expecting Michelle Bachmann to make sense. Might happen from time to time but do not hold your breath.

I wonder how mush the GOP intends to spend on celery picking technology

Political Atheist Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:24:18pm

re: #11 recusancy

Link not there.

mikefromArlington Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:24:19pm

Just wait till the left protests the 2012 elections and these idiots control all three branches of Govn't.

We're screwed.

recusancy Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:26:46pm

re: #14 Rightwingconspirator

Link not there.

No link. I was just emphasizing what you wrote.

albusteve Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:27:43pm

re: #12 Rightwingconspirator

At least the hole and the mountain is still there...
///

worlds largest mushroom farm?

recusancy Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:28:16pm

re: #15 mikefromArlington

Just wait till the left protests the 2012 elections and these idiots control all three branches of Govn't.

We're screwed.

Hopefully the suicidal morons on the left are small in number.

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:28:22pm

re: #8 albusteve

we ditched Yucca Mt after a few billion was spent on it

That's what they want you to believe. It's actually a top secret site used for disposing of those hideous troll dolls that were so popular in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

Political Atheist Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:30:32pm

re: #16 recusancy

Oh sorry. Thanks.
D'oh!

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:32:08pm

re: #15 mikefromArlington

Just wait till the left protests the 2012 elections and these idiots control all three branches of Govn't.

Probably won't happen. Especially if there is a Bachmann or Palin whackjob on the GOP tix. That will bring out even the most sullen anti-Obama "disappointed" grumblers.

Kragar Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:33:52pm

God hates telescopes after that whole Galileo business. Its been downhill ever since.

Kragar Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:37:07pm

re: #13 albusteve

I wonder how mush the GOP intends to spend on celery picking technology

They have a cunning plan for that.

Step 1) deport all the people willing to do the work
Step 2) ???
Step 3) God loves America again.

Gus Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:38:34pm

Pardon my French but this is fucking bullshit of the worst kind. Are they out of their stupid little minds? They want to kill the next generation space telescope that will help advance astronomy miles ahead of what's already been done with Hubble? Can they be this ignorant? Can they be this short sighted? WTF? This is bullshit. They're idoits.

Gus Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:39:22pm

Mikulski Statement On House Appropriations Subcommittee Termination of James Webb Telescope
July 7, 2011

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- U.S. Senator Barbara A. Mikulski (D-Md.) today released the following statement on funding for the James Webb Telescope:

"Today the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science and Related Agencies passed a bill that would terminate the James Webb Space Telescope, kill 2,000 jobs nationwide and stall scientific progress and discovery. It was a shortsighted and misguided move.

"The Webb Telescope will lead to the kind of innovation and discovery that have made America great. It will inspire America's next generation of scientists and innovators that will have the new ideas that lead to the new jobs in our new economy.

"The Administration must step in and fight for the James Webb Telescope."

In the next step of the House Appropriations process, the funding bill will be considered by the Full Appropriations Committee on July 13.

Shiplord Kirel Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:39:52pm

re: #24 Gus 802

Pardon my French but this is fucking bullshit of the worst kind. Are they out of their stupid little minds? They want to kill the next generation space telescope that will help advance astronomy miles ahead of what's already been done with Hubble? Can they be this ignorant? Can they be this short sighted? WTF? This is bullshit. They're idoits.

They are indeed that stupid. I know people who revel in this kind of ignorance.The GOP has seance science to go with their superstition sociology and voodoo economics.

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:40:45pm

re: #5 Hal_10000

Because the JWST has been sucking up all the funds several other proposed, second tier (much less expensive) space based astronomy assets have been put on hold. Thus there has been some grousing in the astro community over the JWST.

In fairness to the JWST team, they are attempting to build a cutting edge satellite and telescope. Think of this - a folding mirror, a design to work in the infra-red which means active cooling in space, on a platform that is located far enough away from Earth that it will not be reachable to be repaired (unlike the HST) so it has to work without any further tinkering when launched.

The infra-red capability is important - being able to detect the infra-red portion of the spectrum is what will tell scientists the composition of planetary atmospheres as well as early stars/galaxies. The JWST will be able to see portions of the spectrum that ground-based telescopes can only do so poorly because of the Earth's atmosphere.

If the JWST is cancelled, though, it might free up some money for a couple of the less expensive proposed satellites, which can be built for substantially less than a billion dollars.

Varek Raith Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:41:08pm

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

What's next de-funding asteroid tracking? Oh, just underfunded it.

Weather sats? Ditto.

Pffft, like asteroids ever hit the earth.
Wait...
Fuck.

Gus Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:41:36pm

From Why You Need to Help Save the James Webb Space Telescope

If you’re American, you can help keep NASA funded to complete JWST: First, contact your congressperson online either via email or his/her official website, because the bill has to clear the House first. If it should make it through the House, contact your senators urging them to vote against it. Help them see that, even though the price isn’t cheap (although compared to the rest of the budget, it might actually look cheap), the knowledge gained from the project’s completion will almost certainly make it look like a bargain. And spread the word on Twitter, on Facebook, on Google+, and anywhere else you can think of: This is a project we can’t afford to lose. Senator Barbara Mikulski of Maryland, who initiated the study last fall that revealed the cost overruns, has issued a statement strongly opposing defunding the project.

Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:41:51pm

Can't help but suspect that one reason why the GOP is anxious to kill this project is because this telescope may discover things about the origin of the universe -- things that will seriously undermine the fundamentalist mindset.

When you believe in the literal truth of the Bible, you're going to be hostile to projects like this because they have the very real potential to wreck your world view.

Shiplord Kirel Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:42:25pm

An American was the first human being to walk on the Moon, they can never take that from us, not in a million years. The next person to walk on the Moon will probably be Chinese though.

Varek Raith Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:42:59pm

re: #31 Shiplord Kirel

An American was the first human being to walk on the Moon, they can never take that from us, not in a million years. The next person to walk on the Moon will probably be Chinese though.

And Mars, the the rate we're going.
:/

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:44:03pm

re: #30 Charles

Here are the members of the Appropriations Committee:

[Link: appropriations.house.gov...]

Shiplord Kirel Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:44:13pm

re: #30 Charles

Can't help but suspect that one reason why the GOP is anxious to kill this project is because this telescope may discover things about the origin of the universe -- things that will seriously undermine the fundamentalist mindset.

When you believe in the literal truth of the Bible, you're going to be hostile to projects like this because they have the very real potential to wreck your world view.

Sledgehammer, nail, head.

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:47:15pm

Here are the Republicans on the subcommittee that overlooks the NASA appropriations and who wrote the amendment:

Frank R. Wolf, Virginia, Chairman
John Abney Culberson, Texas
Robert B. Aderholt, Alabama
Jo Bonner, Alabama
Steve Austria, Ohio
Tom Graves, Georgia
Kevin Yoder, Kansas

blueraven Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:48:29pm

re: #32 Varek Raith

And Mars, the the rate we're going.
:/

Hey...Michele Bachman was there!

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:49:22pm

re: #31 Shiplord Kirel

An American was the first human being to walk on the Moon, they can never take that from us, not in a million years. ...snip

Wrong--if they write the histories.

Kragar Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:49:27pm

re: #36 blueraven

Hey...Michele Bachman was there!

Speaking of Michelle...

Bachmann clinic using discredited therapy to 'cure gays'

Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:50:57pm

re: #35 freetoken

Frank R. Wolf:

Wolf believes abortion should be illegal and he opposes subsidized birth control for federal employees. Congressman Wolf has also voted to deny funding to Planned Parenthood. He also opposes funding for international family planning in developing countries. Frank Wolf is against the Employment Non-Discrimination Act for fear it would destroy religious freedom. He believes marriage is between one man and one woman.

Targetpractice Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:51:15pm

So, remind me again, how many billions over budget and years behind schedule is the F-35?

Kragar Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:52:05pm

re: #40 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So, remind me again, how many billions over budget and years behind schedule is the F-35?

But what if the unexpected occurs?!?!
/

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:52:11pm

re: #39 Charles

Aderholt is a staunch supporter and confidant of "Ten Commandments Judge" Roy Moore, whose home is in Gadsden, the longtime political center of the district. Moore joined Aderholt when Aderholt introduced the Constitution Restoration Act, controversial legislation which would remove issues regarding the First Amendment to the Constitution from the reach of the Federal Courts.

However, the Marshall Space Center is in his district and he has been noted as being a congressmen who tries to get money for his district.

Varek Raith Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:52:27pm

re: #40 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So, remind me again, how many billions over budget and years behind schedule is the F-35?

Killing people >>> Science.
How sad.

Gus Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:52:39pm

re: #39 Charles

Frank R. Wolf:

Top 5 Contributors, 1989 - 2010
Contributor Total Indivs PACs
Natl Active & Retired Fed Employees Assn $73,000 $0 $73,000
Aircraft Owners & Pilots Assn $71,000 $0 $71,000
National Assn of Realtors $69,885 $0 $69,885
Air Line Pilots Assn $63,600 $0 $63,600
National Air Traffic Controllers Assn $59,900 $0 $59,900

Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:53:18pm

re: #42 freetoken

I looked up three more of those Republicans, and they're ALL social conservatives. Which means they're almost certainly all creationists.

Lidane Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:53:28pm

re: #1 Slumbering Behemoth

Yes, but it won't find Jesus, and is therefore useless.
/

For the nutjobs currently running the GOP, this is an article of faith.

The more we explore deep space and the universe around us, the more people question the words of primitive shepherds from 3000 years ago. That's not allowed.

Kragar Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:54:03pm

re: #43 Varek Raith

Killing people >>> Science.
How sad.

Paying off your buddies and lobbyists > effective weapons programs

Varek Raith Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:54:42pm

re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Paying off your buddies and lobbyists > effective weapons programs

Ain't it grand?

Lidane Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:54:55pm

re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Paying off your buddies and lobbyists > effective weapons programs

Ladies and gents-- our Defense policy in a nutshell.

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:55:04pm

Every freakn' 4 years it's "the most important election of our lifetime", and every freakn' time it's true. Getting old.

wrenchwench Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:56:03pm

re: #30 Charles

Can't help but suspect that one reason why the GOP is anxious to kill this project is because this telescope may discover things about the origin of the universe -- things that will seriously undermine the fundamentalist mindset.

When you believe in the literal truth of the Bible, you're going to be hostile to projects like this because they have the very real potential to wreck your world view.

It's a danger to their immortal souls to even spend time thinking about looking for something they don't believe in, ie: scientific reality.

Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:56:09pm

Let private enterprise explore deep space.

Varek Raith Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:56:30pm

Man, this really ticks me off.

TedStriker Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:56:34pm

re: #1 Slumbering Behemoth

Yes, but it won't find Jesus, and is therefore useless.
/

You may be more right about the wingnuts than you know...

Targetpractice Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:57:37pm

re: #43 Varek Raith

Killing people >>> Science.
How sad.

It's really par for the course. A Congress critter knows he can get more votes for being "strong on national defense" than he can being "for science" or "for the arts." Blowing up "enemies" half a world away is never a bad investment, at least according to the military-industrial complex.

blueraven Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:57:38pm

Seems to me the only thing the republicans have been doing about jobs since they took over the house is to destroy them. Same thing with all the republican governors.

Cut science/space programs, cut teachers, police and fire fighters just to name a few. Like these are not real jobs and real people who contribute to the health of the economy.

Lidane Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:58:08pm

re: #50 Decatur Deb

Every freakn' 4 years it's "the most important election of our lifetime", and every freakn' time it's true. Getting old.

And every four years I wonder how people keep falling for the GOP's bullshit.

I mean, if you have any appreciation for things like reason, science, education, technology, and actually pushing this country forward, how can anyone keep voting for these ignorant, reactionary, backwards, completely bugfuck insane people?

The Dems are hardly a bastion of bright ideas, but being sane puts them leagues ahead of the GOP.

Gus Sat, Jul 9, 2011 2:59:38pm

re: #53 Varek Raith

Man, this really ticks me off.

Sure does. I'm fecking boiling over here. I had to break open a beer.

Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:00:04pm

re: #27 freetoken

Yes, it's true that some scientists are protesting at the cost overruns of the Webb Telescope.

But if it's built and starts sending back images as planned, they'll forget all about the protests.

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:00:42pm

re: #21 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Probably won't happen. Especially if there is a Bachmann or Palin whackjob on the GOP tix. That will bring out even the most sullen anti-Obama "disappointed" grumblers.

Hell, the prospective GOP ticket for 2012 we see me voting for Obama.

/I know, I know. Purge the RINO!!!

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:00:54pm

The Tea Party Caucus is looking to cut anything and everything. Any project that has a whiff of "mismanagement", which unfortunately has been accused of the JWST, will be a target without looking at each case on the merits.

albusteve Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:01:08pm

re: #57 Lidane

And every four years I wonder how people keep falling for the GOP's bullshit.

I mean, if you have any appreciation for things like reason, science, education, technology, and actually pushing this country forward, how can anyone keep voting for these ignorant, reactionary, backwards, completely bugfuck insane people?

The Dems are hardly a bastion of bright ideas, but being sane puts them leagues ahead of the GOP.

politics is a team sport and voters are loath to change teams

engineer cat Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:03:00pm

said that the project “is billions of dollars over budget and plagued by poor management”

if that's the criterion, then we'll have to shut down two thirds of the united states, and the entire bush administration in retrospect

Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:04:26pm

re: #63 engineer dog

said that the project “is billions of dollars over budget and plagued by poor management”

You mean like almost any US military weapons procurement plan?

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:04:52pm

re: #57 Lidane

And every four years I wonder how people keep falling for the GOP's bullshit.

I mean, if you have any appreciation for things like reason, science, education, technology, and actually pushing this country forward, how can anyone keep voting for these ignorant, reactionary, backwards, completely bugfuck insane people?

...snip

That's what I said, then I pulled the lever for Hubert Humphrey.

engineer cat Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:05:44pm

John Galt Was Framed

"never deserted my fellow employees over some stupid self-centered pissy fit" declares reclusive engineer

Amory Blaine Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:07:36pm

We could sell it for pennies on the dollar to China.

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:08:48pm

I'm amazed that the NOAA budget went as smoothly as it did. If you remember, the replacement satellite for polar orbiting weather was held up because it is also listed as a "climate" resource and certain GOP members went after it as part of the AGW-Is-A-Hoax attack.

However, I think the military jumped up and down enough to convince the GOP in the Appropriations subcommittee that the satellite replacement was indeed important enough to keep.

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:10:43pm

re: #68 freetoken

PIMF "the replacement polar-orbiting satellite for weather observation..."

engineer cat Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:11:27pm

re: #65 Decatur Deb

That's what I said, then I pulled the lever for Hubert Humphrey.

if robert kennedy hadn't been assassinated he probably would have won, and then how different would the past 40 years have been?

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:12:27pm

re: #70 engineer dog

Reagan instead of Carter in 1976?

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:14:04pm

re: #70 engineer dog

if robert kennedy hadn't been assassinated he probably would have won, and then how different would the past 40 years have been?

No ping-pong tournaments with Red China. Work from there.

Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:15:05pm

Democrat thugs breaking into the RNC headquarters?

engineer cat Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:15:46pm

the US House of Representatives’ appropriations committee on commerce, justice, and science decided that it had had enough of ~~the united states being a world leader in scientific research~~ these escalating costs

Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:18:27pm

re: #38 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Speaking of Michelle...

Bachmann clinic using discredited therapy to 'cure gays'

I'm still waiting to the video. The story is certainly plausible but I'm suspicious why they didn't release the videos or at least give them to journalists to verify. So far it's just accusations from biased activists.

Gus Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:19:07pm

Hoyer to Appropriators: Reconsider Cuts to James Webb Space

WASHINGTON, DC – Congressman Steny H. Hoyer (MD-5) sent a letter today to Members of the House Appropriations Committee urging them to reconsider their decision to cut funding for the James Webb Space Telescope at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center as they proceed to Full Committee markup next week. Hoyer, whose District includes Goddard, has taken the lead on discussions with Congressman Frank Wolf (R-VA), the Chairman of the Subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies, and Congressman Chaka Fattah (D-PA), the Ranking Member, on how they can work together to preserve this critical investment in America’s space program.

The letter as sent is below.

...

Gus Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:19:24pm

Dear Chairman Rogers:
The Subcommittee-reported FY2012 Commerce, Justice, and Science Appropriations bill eliminates funding for the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST). The JWST is of critical importance to the mission of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration’s (NASA) Goddard Space Flight Center in my district and is an investment of national and global significance in the future of space astronomy and astrophysics. The full Committee will consider this bill next week, and I urge the Committee to continue to provide funds for this critical project. Among its merits:

* Scientific Discovery. The JWST is designed to be the successor to the Hubble Space Telescope which is presently used by more than 8,000 scientists. Its observational capabilities will allow those scientists to continue their work and support the next generation of discovery.

* Job Creation. In addition to supporting researchers, JWST is supporting 2000 full time private sector jobs in 22 states. 500 of these jobs are in Maryland, and 250 at Goddard.

* U.S. Prominence and Leadership. JWST technologies are unique to the United States, and will ensure American dominance in space observation.

The Committee has already provided $3 billion for JWST. The telescope is in fabrication with the mirror finished and other components nearly complete. It would be devastating to lose the project at this juncture. It is my hope the Committee can rectify the situation for the benefit of the country.

Sincerely,

Steny H. Hoyer

Member of Congress

Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:20:09pm

Peace activists in Gaza are feeling froggy....
3 Gaza rockets fired at Israel

More Gaza terror: Two rockets land in open areas south of Ashkelon, one explodes in Strip
....
In recent days there has been a certain escalation of attacks around the Strip. On Tuesday, the Air Force struck a terror cell engaged in final preparations for launching a rocket at Israel. The Palestinian said two people were killed in the strike and another man sustained moderate wounds.

William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:20:12pm

re: #9 Decatur Deb

Future historian:
"The American Experiment reached its pinnacle at precisely 19:24:59 UTC on December 19, 1972. We can rarely place the beginning of a decline so accurately."

(Translated from the Chinese by Won Hung Lo.)

Why say that about Alyssa Jayne Milano's birthday?

////

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:21:02pm

Forgot the rotten link:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:21:33pm

re: #74 engineer dog

Kansas Outlaws Practice Of Evolution

TOPEKA, KS—In response to a Nov. 7 referendum, Kansas lawmakers passed emergency legislation outlawing evolution, the highly controversial process responsible for the development and diversity of species and the continued survival of all life.

"From now on, the streets, forests, plains, and rivers of Kansas will be safe from the godless practice of evolution, and species will be able to procreate without deviating from God's intended design," said Bob Bethell, a member of the state House of Representatives. "This is about protecting the integrity of all creation."

The sweeping new law prohibits all living beings within state borders from being born with random genetic mutations that could make them better suited to evade predators, secure a mate, or, adapt to a changing environment. In addition, it bars any sexual reproduction, battles for survival, or instances of pure happenstance that might lead, after several generations, to a more well-adapted species or subspecies.

Gus Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:23:17pm

re: #81 Slumbering Behemoth

Kansas Outlaws Practice Of Evolution

Fool me once...

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:24:44pm

Speaking of budget cuts...

I looked at the fall schedule of classes for a large community college in my region, at which I've taken various courses over the decades, and there is a noticeable reduction in the number of class sections being offered compared to a few years ago. And an increasing number of sections are offered "online".

The California budget debacle is being felt. There has been a material cut in the community college level of education.

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:25:31pm

re: #76 Gus 802

Hoyer to Appropriators: Reconsider Cuts to James Webb Space

...

There is hope that the project will be funded. That hope rests on the likelihood that someone will find a way to massage the right egos, line the right pockets, and barter for some absurd earmark. It has nothing to do with an enlightened electorate influencing patriotic representatives.

Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:25:43pm

Bachmann Stands By Marriage Pledge That Links Slavery to Black Family Values

It's not clear whether Bachmann was aware of the slavery passage on the first page. Alice Stewart, a spokeswoman for the Bachmann campaign, told FoxNews.com that the Minnesota congresswoman has no second thoughts about signing the "candidate vow" portion that doesn't mention slavery.

"She stands by the points that are outlined in the pledge," she said. "Particularly the ones for strong marriage. She's been happily married for 32 years. That's the focus of the pledge."

Gus Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:26:07pm

Back later.

William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:26:14pm

re: #81 Slumbering Behemoth

I know that's onion without even looking at the url but it still makes my head hurt.

Sol Berdinowitz Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:28:04pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Bachmann Stands By Marriage Pledge That Links Slavery to Black Family Values

Slaves were happy until 1865, when they were forcibly divorced from their masters, weren't they?

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:28:44pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

"Slavery had a disastrous impact on African-American families, yet sadly a child born into slavery in 1860 was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA's first African-American President," the opening statement reads.

Great Gravel's Dust! What a gawd-awful load of ridiculous bullshit!

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:29:17pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Do I dare take a look at the comments on that story?

Iwouldprefernotto Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:30:28pm

re: #30 Charles

Can't help but suspect that one reason why the GOP is anxious to kill this project is because this telescope may discover things about the origin of the universe -- things that will seriously undermine the fundamentalist mindset.

When you believe in the literal truth of the Bible, you're going to be hostile to projects like this because they have the very real potential to wreck your world view.

Yes.

I have always wondered what would happen if we meet aliens from a distant planet and they have never heard of Jesus?

Shiplord Kirel Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:30:49pm

A terse statement, released by the Republican-dominated committee, said that the project “is billions of dollars over budget and plagued by poor management”.

As usual, someone has forgotten to tell the GOP that a misleading half truth is the same as a lie. In fact, the Webb Space Telescope is making good progress and costs are under control.
From Wikipedia:

Notably, this (2010) review commended the JWST project for being in excellent technical shape with most flight hardware making good progress to completion. The delay and cost overruns are due to an unrealistic original budget and insufficient program management. In response, NASA instituted significant management changes in the JWST project, but the need for increased funding has led to a substantial mission delay.

The GOP luddites are destroying the program to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Iwouldprefernotto Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:32:26pm

re: #92 Shiplord Kirel

As usual, someone has forgotten to tell the GOP that a misleading half truth is the same as a lie. In fact, the Webb Space Telescope is making good progress and costs are under control.
From Wikipedia:

The GOP luddites are destroying the program to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

The Iraq war is over budget, when do we cancel it?

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:34:54pm

re: #91 Iwouldprefernotto

Yes.

I have always wondered what would happen if we meet aliens from a distant planet and they have never heard of Jesus?

By the 1950's, the nuns had an answer for that. It would have no theological impact, because the Christian "economy of salvation" was only needed for the descendants of Adam and Eve. BEMs would have their own history.

Killgore Trout Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:35:24pm

re: #90 freetoken

Do I dare take a look at the comments on that story?

I took a peek, they were discussing Mitt for some reason.

Idle Drifter Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:36:18pm

This just sums up my reaction. Just add x10 the rage.

Youtube Video

Shiplord Kirel Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:37:44pm

re: #91 Iwouldprefernotto

Yes.

I have always wondered what would happen if we meet aliens from a distant planet and they have never heard of Jesus?

I've wondered what would happen if we find that they had.

CuriousLurker Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:37:58pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Bachmann Stands By Marriage Pledge That Links Slavery to Black Family Values

From the article:

It's not clear whether Bachmann was aware of the slavery passage on the first page.

[...]

Former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum, another GOP presidential hopeful, also signed the pledge. But it's not clear whether he agrees with the slavery passage because his campaign did not respond to a request for comment.

Seriously? You can sign your name to something and then later claim that you were not "aware of" its contents? Or you signed it but since you didn't explicitly state that you agreed with every word, then maybe you don't actually agree with it? If any Dem had signed anything even marginally controversial...

Coracle Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:40:20pm

From the article, the claim JWST: “is billions of dollars over budget and plagued by poor management” is true. It's recognized within the science community. JWST is controversial _within_ the NASA science community because of its obscene overruns. There's no question it would provide fantastic science return, but the 'bang for the buck' _in_ science return goes down with each impressively large overrun.

Two billion dollars - overrun money alone for JWST - would fund _four_ Discovery missions of the class of Dawn, soon to arrive at Vesta, then Ceres, and MESSENGER, now in orbit around Mercury. And we're not done with the overruns yet. Within the community itself JWST _proponents_ are rueful, but feel 'we've gone too far to stop now'.

I'm no Republican, but the desire to kill JWST is not a partisan issue - or at least it's not _only_ a partisan issue.

100

Charles Johnson Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:49:15pm

re: #99 Coracle

And as I wrote above, as soon as the Telescope is in space and sending back images, all the people upset about the cost overruns will forget they ever had a problem with it.

101

Coracle Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:50:56pm

re: #100 Charles

Not me. I look at all the missions JWST ate and weep.

102

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:53:46pm

re: #100 Charles

And as I wrote above, as soon as the Telescope is in space and sending back images, all the people upset about the cost overruns will forget they ever had a problem with it.

Even after the Perkin-Elmer screw-up, Hubble became a triumph. It did need human intervention, though (Ophthalmologists In Space).

103

Hal_10000 Sat, Jul 9, 2011 3:55:57pm

re: #101 Coracle

Yeah. That's why I'm mixed on it. Potential ground-breaking science but so many eggs in one basket.

My larger concern is that the JWST money will just disappear, not go into other missions. The GOP talks about "American exceptionalism". There are few fields where we are as exceptional as we are than astronomy. To most of the world, America is astronomy.

104

abolitionist Sat, Jul 9, 2011 4:37:11pm

re: #102 Decatur Deb

Even after the Perkin-Elmer screw-up, Hubble became a triumph. It did need human intervention, though (Ophthalmologists In Space).

Or optometrists?

105

Olsonist Sat, Jul 9, 2011 4:59:46pm

NPR did an interesting story about how we spend more on air conditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan than we do on NASA:

The amount the U.S. military spends annually on air conditioning in Iraq and Afghanistan: $20.2 billion, according to a former Pentagon official.
That's more than NASA's budget. It's more than BP has paid so far for damage from the Gulf oil spill. It's what the G-8 has pledged to help foster new democracies in Egypt and Tunisia.

That the Right Wing also wants to gut the Webb Space Telescope is only too consistent.

106

Dark_Falcon Sat, Jul 9, 2011 5:06:32pm

I would point out that what Republicans are moving to cut is a program that is behind schedule and badly over budget. I'd prefer to fix the program rather than end it, but I'd rather end it than let it keep failing.

107

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 5:28:09pm

re: #104 abolitionist

Or optometrists?

Had to be diagnosed. IIRC, an indexing rod was installed backwards in a grinding machine.

108

freetoken Sat, Jul 9, 2011 5:30:21pm

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

But here is the thing: the claim of "badly over budget" is applied to a program which isn't necessarily performing badly but whose initial costs were under estimated due to the fact because such a device (space borne active cooling infra-red telescope) is a new thing.

Yes, infrared imaging has been done in space before, but never on this scale or at this extreme.

The whole point of research is that one intentionally goes down paths one has not gone down before.

In this case the original costing of the project is now seen, in hindsight, to have been too simplistic. It is not as if the people constructing the telescope are doing a poor job.

109

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sat, Jul 9, 2011 5:48:09pm

re: #88 ralphieboy

Slaves were happy until 1865, when they were forcibly divorced from their masters, weren't they?

The slaves were the ultimate victims of federal northern aggression, too.

The War for Constitutional Liberty deprived the poor slaves of loving masters, whose enterprising culture provided them with their own space to develop their talents for singing, laughing, and tapdancing.

(No / ... the neoconfederate contingent of the GOP actually believe this.)

110

jvic Sat, Jul 9, 2011 6:57:02pm

re: #9 Decatur Deb

Future historian:
"The American Experiment reached its pinnacle at precisely 19:24:59 UTC on December 19, 1972. We can rarely place the beginning of a decline so accurately."

(Translated from the Chinese by Won Hung Lo.)

Sixty years after the nation's last moon landing, a dramatic event confirmed that the American Renaissance was fully underway.

A multinational XYZ Aerospace construction crew landed on the Moon and began unsealing the unmanned cargo craft already at the landing site. The crew will begin constructing tourism facilities.

Some in the world's financial elite have already made down payments. The astronomical prices are expected to fall precipitously as space technology progresses and world living standards continue to rise. Planning is underway regarding sustainable long term habitats.

The President congratulated the crew and Albuquerque-based XYZ and its competitors, most of whom are also US-based. Recalling the history of the global system once called the Internet, she declared that it is a core national interest of the United States to assure that the Moon becomes a resource for all humanity. Spokesmen in Beijing, Rio, Brussels & elsewhere declined to comment on the President's statement. The Chinese government refused to enable media contact with its lunar facilities.

111

Decatur Deb Sat, Jul 9, 2011 7:03:39pm

re: #110 jvic

Sixty years after the nation's last moon landing, a dramatic event confirmed that the American Renaissance was fully underway.

A multinational XYZ Aerospace construction crew landed on the Moon and began unsealing the unmanned cargo craft already at the landing site. The crew will begin constructing tourism facilities.

Some in the world's financial elite have already made down payments. The astronomical prices are expected to fall precipitously as space technology progresses and world living standards continue to rise. Planning is underway regarding sustainable long term habitats.

The President congratulated the crew and Albuquerque-based XYZ and its competitors, most of whom are also US-based. Recalling the history of the global system once called the Internet, she declared that it is a core national interest of the United States to assure that the Moon becomes a resource for all humanity. Spokesmen in Beijing, Rio, Brussels & elsewhere declined to comment on the President's statement. The Chinese government refused to enable media contact with its lunar facilities.

"Replacement pilot Rajayavit Patel, seconding for First Pilot Jesus Gutierrez after his company-provided HB6 visa bounced, said he was pleased to lead..."

112

laZardo Sat, Jul 9, 2011 7:34:43pm

You know, I'm not exactly a fan of the GOP's cost cutting but I honestly do not see how staring off into the depths of space has benefited Americans on earth.

Maybe the only reason we're spending that money in the first place is out of some cynical forecast that we're eventually going to screw up the earth anyway before the Universe does (through comets/red giant sun, etc) and we need to find an alternative place to ship the future of humanity fast.

113

boxhead Sun, Jul 10, 2011 12:48:36am

re: #112 laZardo

You know, I'm not exactly a fan of the GOP's cost cutting but I honestly do not see how staring off into the depths of space has benefited Americans on earth.

Maybe the only reason we're spending that money in the first place is out of some cynical forecast that we're eventually going to screw up the earth anyway before the Universe does (through comets/red giant sun, etc) and we need to find an alternative place to ship the future of humanity fast.

IMHO, science and engineering is exactly where we need to invest. Designing, building, deploying, and using a device such as the Web, will only make us collectively smarter. Smart is good, science is good, engineering is good, education focusing on these things is good. Letting the rest of the world to lead in science is a big FAIL for USA.

114

RogueOne Sun, Jul 10, 2011 3:41:44am

re: #108 freetoken

But here is the thing: the claim of "badly over budget" is applied to a program which isn't necessarily performing badly but whose initial costs were under estimated due to the fact because such a device (space borne active cooling infra-red telescope) is a new thing.

Yes, infrared imaging has been done in space before, but never on this scale or at this extreme.

The whole point of research is that one intentionally goes down paths one has not gone down before.

In this case the original costing of the project is now seen, in hindsight, to have been too simplistic. It is not as if the people constructing the telescope are doing a poor job.

According to the NASA report that isn't accurate. The problem isn't the technology, it's the management.

[Link: www.pcmag.com...]

JWST will study the history of the universe and document the far corners of space; it's managed by NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. Previously slated to launch in 2014, the telescope is now delayed until at least September 2015. It's $1.5 billion over its $5 billion budget.
But it's not the design or build of the telescope that is causing the problems. JWST is in "very good technical shape," according to a Friday letter John Casani from NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab wrote to NASA chief Charles Bolden. Instead, the root causes of the cost and scheduling issues are due to a "badly flawed" budget and the inability of those involved to adequately assess what is needed, Casani wrote.

The report (pdf):
[Link: www.nasa.gov...]

oh, and the final nail came in April:

[Link: www.flightglobal.com...]

NASA Administrator Charlie Bolden has declared the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) will not launch until at least 2018.

Bolden made the remarks on 11 April before a Congressional panel in Washington, DC.

The revised launch date is the latest in a series of blows to the troubled telescope programme, which is at least $1.5 billion over budget and four years behind the initially projected launch date.

When it launched, if it ever did, it would have been a decade late and billions of dollars over budget. This should have been cut 2 years ago.

115

Charles Johnson Sun, Jul 10, 2011 11:19:16am

re: #114 RogueOne

Not surprised to see you defending killing this project. You invariably shill for every single far right agenda item of the Republican Party. Invariably.

116

Varek Raith Sun, Jul 10, 2011 12:27:38pm

re: #106 Dark_Falcon

I would point out that what Republicans are moving to cut is a program that is behind schedule and badly over budget. I'd prefer to fix the program rather than end it, but I'd rather end it than let it keep failing.

And how many badly behind schedule and over budget military items are you/the GOP willing to kill?

117

HistoryInAction Sun, Jul 10, 2011 7:30:21pm

Gonna send this to Charles directly, but if anyone's still on this thread, I'm working with Votizen and drafted up this letter in support of saving the Jim Webb Space Telescope: [Link: www.votizen.com...]

Votizen connects your online presence with your voting record to make elected officials pay attention to emails or facebook messages. They are just launching.

118

laZardo Sun, Jul 10, 2011 7:50:00pm

re: #113 boxhead

IMHO, science and engineering is exactly where we need to invest. Designing, building, deploying, and using a device such as the Web, will only make us collectively smarter. Smart is good, science is good, engineering is good, education focusing on these things is good. Letting the rest of the world to lead in science is a big FAIL for USA.

So why does this necessarily have to take place in outer space?

119

RogueOne Sun, Jul 10, 2011 8:14:41pm

re: #115 Charles

This would be a nice program to have if we could afford it and if NASA could get it right but we can't and they haven't. There isn't a company around that would put up with a program being 8 years past it's due date and 200% over its budget. We have programs that people depend on, which are going broke, and people want to throw good money after bad on a meaning of life science project? That doesn't make any sense.

It might also help to remember that the original funding for this was put through by a republican congress, senate, and president that didn't know when to stop spending other peoples money either.

120

boxhead Mon, Jul 11, 2011 12:57:09am

re: #118 laZardo

So why does this necessarily have to take place in outer space?

To remove the atmosphere from distorting the view. Not to sound like a dick, but I learned that in a college physics class. Education matters...

121

boxhead Mon, Jul 11, 2011 1:02:41am

re: #119 RogueOne

This would be a nice program to have if we could afford it and if NASA could get it right but we can't and they haven't. There isn't a company around that would put up with a program being 8 years past it's due date and 200% over its budget. We have programs that people depend on, which are going broke, and people want to throw good money after bad on a meaning of life science project? That doesn't make any sense.

It might also help to remember that the original funding for this was put through by a republican congress, senate, and president that didn't know when to stop spending other peoples money either.

So instead of finishing this project, we should just throw away the money already invested because the science was harder than what was proposed.

That is a sure path to surrender.

damn folks, USA needs to get smarter. Our Country seems to have no interest in long term planning. so sad..................

122

Obdicut Mon, Jul 11, 2011 3:01:34am

re: #119 RogueOne

This would be a nice program to have if we could afford it and if NASA could get it right but we can't and they haven't. There isn't a company around that would put up with a program being 8 years past it's due date and 200% over its budget.

Of course there are. That goes on in the real world all the time, in R&D, in programming projects, etc. Why do you need to assert crap that's not true? Shit, there are ads all over town for Duke Nukem Forever, a game that's more than a decade late and has had several companies collapse under it.

An estimate of costs can be wildly off without it meaning that the money spent isn't worthwhile.

We have programs that people depend on, which are going broke, and people want to throw good money after bad on a meaning of life science project? That doesn't make any sense.

Because you don't understand the project, I guess, and how basic science supports technology in general. It's not about the meaning of life. It's about unlocking the most basic physics behind the interactions of matter-- the kind of thing that leads, after much hard work, to amazing technological inventions, especially in the area of energy.

This is exactly the sort of basic science research that led us to our understanding of atomic theory, and our ability to manipulate radioactive material.

123

RogueOne Mon, Jul 11, 2011 3:24:39am

re: #122 Obdicut

Of course there are. That goes on in the real world all the time, in R&D, in programming projects, etc. Why do you need to assert crap that's not true? Shit, there are ads all over town for Duke Nukem Forever, a game that's more than a decade late and has had several companies collapse under it.

Which makes my point for me. Thank you.

An estimate of costs can be wildly off without it meaning that the money spent isn't worthwhile.

I didn't say it wasn't worthwhile. What I said was it would be a nice project to have if we could afford it. We can't.

Because you don't understand the project, I guess, and how basic science supports technology in general. It's not about the meaning of life. It's about unlocking the most basic physics behind the interactions of matter-- the kind of thing that leads, after much hard work, to amazing technological inventions, especially in the area of energy.

This is exactly the sort of basic science research that led us to our understanding of atomic theory, and our ability to manipulate radioactive material.

That's a weird assertion. I hadn't realized Einstein and Oppenheimer had access to satellite technology. Once again I'm pretty sure I understand the project but I don't believe you do...

[Link: www.jwst.nasa.gov...]

The science goals for the Webb can be grouped into four themes:
The End of the Dark Ages: First Light and Reionization seeks to identify the first bright objects that formed in the early Universe, and follow the ionization history.

Assembly of Galaxies will determine how galaxies and dark matter, including gas, stars, metals, physical structures (like spiral arms) and active nuclei evolved to the present day.

The Birth of Stars and Protoplanetary Systems focuses on the birth and early development of stars and the formation of planets.

Planetary Systems and the Origins of Life studies the physical and chemical properties of solar systems (including our own) and where the building blocks of life may be present.

It's a "meaning of life" science project. It would be nice but, again, we can't afford it and it's unnecessary. If you think it's that important then what entitlement programs would you be willing to slash by a couple billion dollars to pay for it?

124

RogueOne Mon, Jul 11, 2011 3:25:58am

re: #121 boxhead

So instead of finishing this project, we should just throw away the money already invested because the science was harder than what was proposed.

That is a sure path to surrender.

damn folks, USA needs to get smarter. Our Country seems to have no interest in long term planning. so sad...

Sometimes you have to cut your losses. Again, according to NASA, the science isn't the problem, the problem is mismanagement.

125

Obdicut Mon, Jul 11, 2011 3:43:44am

re: #123 RogueOne

Which makes my point for me. Thank you.

Not really. It showed your claim was wrong. If your claim is now that every project that goes over budget and over schedule causes a company to collapse, you're totally wrong about that, too.

Check into some of the budget/time overruns for the constructions of casinos in Vegas. They can get freaking enormous.

Basically: What you said bears no resemblance to reality. Why do you think it does?

That's a weird assertion. I hadn't realized Einstein and Oppenheimer had access to satellite technology. Once again I'm pretty sure I understand the project but I don't believe you do...

They didn't. They had access to radar telescope technology, which was the precursor to orbital satellites But their work was theoretical-- depending on the findings that were coming in from the astronomers. Data drives basic physics research; we've reached the limit of the data we can obtain through Hubble.

Do you really not get that?

It's a "meaning of life" science project.

Nope. It's a project to look into the first moments of the big bang, deeper than we have before, and understand the relationships between matter and energy in a revolutionary way, just like atomic theory did.

You seem to not get that all basic science looks like a 'meaning of life' project. That's why it has to be done by governments and universities, because corporations can never see the benefit in it.

126

RogueOne Mon, Jul 11, 2011 3:59:13am

re: #125 Obdicut

Not really. It showed your claim was wrong. If your claim is now that every project that goes over budget and over schedule causes a company to collapse, you're totally wrong about that, too.

Check into some of the budget/time overruns for the constructions of casinos in Vegas. They can get freaking enormous.

Basically: What you said bears no resemblance to reality. Why do you think it does?

The only projects that get massive overruns are government programs. I work in the construction field remember? There isn't a company around that would allow 10 years and a couple billion dollars in overruns. Granted, there are problems that occur that don't know about until you actually break ground (bad soil) but otherwise someone is responsible for those overruns (either the architect, the engineers, or the lead contractor) but it's usually not the customer.

They didn't. They had access to radar telescope technology, which was the precursor to orbital satellites But their work was theoretical-- depending on the findings that were coming in from the astronomers. Data drives basic physics research; we've reached the limit of the data we can obtain through Hubble.

Do you really not get that?

So they didn't need satellites? I'm pretty sure that's my contention, this project isn't a necessity.

Nope. It's a project to look into the first moments of the big bang, deeper than we have before, and understand the relationships between matter and energy in a revolutionary way, just like atomic theory did.

You seem to not get that all basic science looks like a 'meaning of life' project. That's why it has to be done by governments and universities, because corporations can never see the benefit in it.

You neglected to answer my question. Which beneficiaries of government aid are you willing to tell they're going to have to take additional cuts so NASA can look deep into space? We're quickly going broke. We have to prioritize and this project isn't a priority from my POV.

127

Obdicut Mon, Jul 11, 2011 4:23:53am

re: #126 RogueOne

The only projects that get massive overruns are government programs.

That's just a lie, Rogue.

Often, it's only govenments or government related projects-- like the many, many aviation projects that have had massive overruns-- that have the massive, billion-dollar budgets. But in oil and gas exploration and development, in the movies, in any large construction, you can get massive overruns.

In Software, the Standish report found an average of 189% overrun in software costs. I think they cherry-picked a little, but they certainly at least showed in a subset of software projects-- a large subset-- the overrun was an average of 189%-- which means the upper limit was obviously quite a bit higher.

Why do you feel it necessary to assert something so blatantly untrue? Do you actually believe that private companies never run into huge cost overruns?

So they didn't need satellites? I'm pretty sure that's my contention, this project isn't a necessity.

Yes, Rogue. If we want to do the theory of special relativity, we won't need satellites for that.

Cannot tell if you're just playing dumb at this point. They needed telescopes for what they did, as well as a host of other costly scientific equipment. That's the price of advancing physics.

You neglected to answer my question. Which beneficiaries of government aid are you willing to tell they're going to have to take additional cuts so NASA can look deep into space?

I'd like to raise taxes, cut corn subsidies, bust mostly focus on medical costs by going to a single-payer system.

We're quickly going broke.

Not by any definition of the word 'broke', no. We have excellent credit, we have a huge income. We have costs exceeding our income. That doesn't make us broke.

128

Varek Raith Mon, Jul 11, 2011 1:06:35pm

re: #126 RogueOne

I'll be blunt.
If we followed your attitude towards basic R&D, we'd be decades behind in technology right now. You have to do basic, often unprofitable, R&D to get to the profitable/tangible breakthroughs.

129

Coracle Mon, Jul 11, 2011 8:45:16pm

I agree with RogueOne on virtually nothing, but he's hit a real problem. NASA's coffers are not unlimited, and most of the arguments presented about it are that JWST is too big to fail. I'm highly conflicted about that. I personally feel that JWST was at least partially knowingly sold to its own community as a lowballed bill of goods, and has resulted in unnecessary pain and sacrifice within NASA, robbing Peter to pay Paul on numerous occasions.

If we could cannibalize JWST equipment and advances and divert them to other more ready-to-go missions, I'd axe it in a heartbeat. But I don't think that's possible. Make no mistake JWST has damaged NASA, and it will take quite a lot just to undo that. JWST's science return had _better_ be everything they hope and more, or it will be a worse black eye for NASA - and its future budget, and the community of science and infrastructure support - than Hubble ever was.

130

Obdicut Tue, Jul 12, 2011 3:39:07am

re: #129 Coracle

But Hubble isn't a black eye for NASA. It's a shining star.

131

Coracle Tue, Jul 12, 2011 4:34:54am

I'm sure you remember it took years to undo its damage and become that. Years of 'NASA put a broken telescope into orbit' even after it was fixed (at the cost of an additional shuttle mission. And you can't tell me that did not affect NASA"s image and reputation - and budget - with the Congress and the people for years. And Hubble has the warm fuzzies of producing extraordinary beauty as well as excellent science. I'm uncertain whether Webb will have that ability.

132

Obdicut Tue, Jul 12, 2011 4:45:07am

re: #131 Coracle

Yes, I remember it took years for Hubble to reach its full potential. But it's not a black eye.

Why are you uncertain whether Webb will have the warmth of producing beauty? Because it's mostly infra-red?

133

Coracle Tue, Jul 12, 2011 5:41:32am

re: #132 Obdicut

No, the IR when processed can make great art as well as science. I'm more uncertain that JWST will have the _time_ to turn itself from a hole into a mountain.

Hubble's been operational for over 20 years - the first three-plus of which it was optically crippled. JWST's nominal mission lifetime is 5 years, with fuel-limited lifetime of 10.

There are kids entering college today who literally grew up with Hubble in their background providing their eyes on the universe. Webb can't even hope to have that kind of influence.

So no, I'm not uncertain about it's capabilities. I'm certain about some of its inherent limiting factors, though. I don't believe JWST can pay anywhere near the nonscientific dividend Hubble has, and I'm dubious that it's scientific bang for the buck will be anything close to what was originally envisioned.

134

Obdicut Tue, Jul 12, 2011 5:51:29am

re: #133 Coracle

There are kids entering college today who literally grew up with Hubble in their background providing their eyes on the universe. Webb can't even hope to have that kind of influence.

Hubble's life was extended, you know. I'm not sure why 'have the lifetime of Hubble' is now required. Hell, with all the pictures from Hubble, they could keep releasing them for fifty years after the telescope is burnt into nothing. The Webb would be the same.

I'm dubious that it's scientific bang for the buck will be anything close to what was originally envisioned.

Why?

135

Coracle Tue, Jul 12, 2011 7:19:31am

re: #134 Obdicut

JWST is a one-shot. It's not going to be serviceable. When its limited lifetime consumables are gone, so are those capabilites. I was taking a look to see whether the cryocooler lifetime is expected to be 5-10 years or could be longer, but haven't found a good bottom line yet. Lose the cryo, lose the IR and the telescopes main strength. Exhaust fuel (a more reliable limit ~10 years) and you can't dump momentum and point.

Also releasing 'new' Hubble (or whatever) images after the telescope is gone will have the same appeal as 'new' Beatles songs after Lennon died did. "It's not the same."

NASA has an extremely tough dual mission - public outreach on top of scientific advance and exploration, and has had its successes and failures in both. Hubble is absolutely of a near-failure turned into a great success. Please forgive me if I'm not as optimistic about JWST.

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Anti-Science GOP Trying to Kill the Webb Space Telescope

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