If you were to check out only one 9/11 retrospective today, The Atlantic’s 9-11 Ten Years Later would be a good one; especially Jeffrey Goldberg’s introductory essay: The Real Meaning of 9/11.
1 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 10:43:32am |
A very well thought-out piece by Goldberg.
| 3 |
PhillyPretzel Sun, Sep 11, 2011 10:52:46am |
Goldberg writes a good piece. I am giving a copy of it to my dad.
| 4 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Sep 11, 2011 10:58:15am |
Imagine, for a moment, you are Marwan al-Shehhi, the lead hijacker of Flight 175. You see Christine Hanson among the passengers on the plane you had just hijacked — a two-year-old child, seated on her father’s lap — and you fly the plane carrying this child into the South Tower of the World Trade Center anyway.
Can’t imagine it Jeffrey. I’m a sane, reasonable human.
Great piece.
| 6 |
PhillyPretzel Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:18:15am |
re: #5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I have no idea. It can’t be me I took a shower. /
| 9 |
PhillyPretzel Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:30:02am |
Maybe folks are taking a few more minutes to remember what happened and what has happened in the past ten years.
| 10 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:34:27am |
re: #9 PhillyPretzel
An incredibly fruitless exercise I know.
I can’t help but wonder what the world would be like today if 9-11 hadn’t happened.
I’m guessing this is the most world changing thing since WWII.
| 11 |
dragonfire1981 Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:37:27am |
Any bets on whether any of the wingnut bloggers will say something stupid and disrespectful before the end of the day?
| 12 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:38:17am |
re: #11 dragonfire1981
Any bets on whether any of the wingnut bloggers will say something stupid and disrespectful before the end of the day?
Some on the left already did their share.
| 13 |
dragonfire1981 Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:38:18am |
re: #5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Where’d erreybody go?
Well I can’t speak for everyone, but it’s a beautiful sunday afternoon here in the South. I imagine most people are resting/eating lunch/enjoying the weather.
| 14 |
PhillyPretzel Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:38:25am |
re: #11 dragonfire1981
That is an even money bet unfortunately. :(
| 15 |
dragonfire1981 Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:38:40am |
re: #12 Sergey Romanov
I guess maybe I should have said bloggers period.
| 16 |
dragonfire1981 Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:39:11am |
You can get the entire Dateline: America Remembers special online if anyone is interested:
| 17 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:42:14am |
re: #9 PhillyPretzel
Maybe folks are taking a few more minutes to remember what happened and what has happened in the past ten years.
For me it’s a little difficult to comment on this stuff. I have a few quibbles with the Goldberg essay but it was ok. All the 9-11 commentary seems to miss the mark with me.
| 18 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:43:43am |
re: #11 dragonfire1981
I would think that for all the debate over how much the event may or may not have been “exploited” to lead to everything over the last 10 years, it does not take away from the tragedy of the event itself.
For most anyway.
hope i worded that right :x
| 19 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:44:53am |
Meanwhile:
“The evening of September 11, Geller and Spencer will host a special screening (no charge) of the groundbreaking film, The Ground Zero Mosque: The Second Wave of the 911 Attacks (more here), at The Actor’s Temple Theater on 47th between 8th and 9th Avenues at 8:30 pm.”
That’s like 9/11 godwin.
| 20 |
dragonfire1981 Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:44:56am |
re: #18 laZardo
I would think that for all the debate over how much the event may or may not have been “exploited” to lead to everything over the last 10 years, it does not take away from the tragedy of the event itself.
For most anyway.
hope i worded that right :x
I think you did. Your statement makes perfect sense to me anyway.
| 21 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 11, 2011 11:58:09am |
re: #19 Sergey Romanov
In the end, it is not about citing chapter and verse; it is about establishing a mindset. At its best religion is a source of inspiration, not intimidation. At its best religion is about setting our hearts ablaze with a burning passion for the love of our neighbors, not setting holy books ablaze with a burning passion for the hate of our neighbors.
We must be on the side of those who seek to inspire, not intimidate. We must help them fight. We cannot fight in their stead because it is a civil war within their own community; but we can stand with them and give them the tools that will increase their chances of winning. We have a moral imperative and a strong self-interest to raise them up rather than tear them down. This is the greater good.
And the author?
By: Rabbi Ammiel Hirsch
Senior Rabbi, Stephen Wise Free Synagogue
Cue exploding heads…
| 22 |
Obdicut Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:07:11pm |
Yeah. I doubt I’ll post much today. It’s a quiet day, and I just really hope that there aren’t any attacks in New York today.
Of all the ways to commemorate 9/11, a terrorist attack is definitely the worst.
| 23 |
122 Year Old Obama Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:08:19pm |
re: #21 laZardo
STEALTH JIHADIST!!11ty
| 24 |
What, me worry? Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:11:28pm |
re: #19 Sergey Romanov
Meanwhile:
“The evening of September 11, Geller and Spencer will host a special screening (no charge) of the groundbreaking film, The Ground Zero Mosque: The Second Wave of the 911 Attacks (more here), at The Actor’s Temple Theater on 47th between 8th and 9th Avenues at 8:30 pm.”
That’s like 9/11 godwin.
Of all the days to get your hate on, I guess today would be the granddaddy. I saw some anti-American rhetoric on The Twitter today, not all of it foreign. Two heads of the same snake.
| 25 |
Lidane Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:12:19pm |
re: #5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Where’d erreybody go?
I’m watching the Colts get slaughtered by Houston right now, and I’m trying to avoid the blogosphere today, aside from checking in here at LGF.
I’m mindful of 9/11 today, but I refuse to watch any of the news coverage. Not interested.
| 26 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:13:50pm |
re: #25 Lidane
I’m watching the Colts get slaughtered by Houston right now, and I’m trying to avoid the blogosphere today, aside from checking in here at LGF.
I’m mindful of 9/11 today, but I refuse to watch any of the news coverage. Not interested.
I’m not sure how to take the 9/11 related commercials. Nice that they want to appear to care - but I also find it a bit tacky to still be essentially advertising a product using the event (even if indirectly).
| 27 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:17:43pm |
Reading [Link: en.wikipedia.org…] now.
Two things stand out for me:
“Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute’s silence at Tehran football stadium.”
And about the infamous Palestinian celebration footage (the one with the ululating woman):
“Annette Krüger Spitta of the ARD’s (German public broadcasting) TV magazine Panorama states that footage not aired shows that the street surrounding the celebration in Jerusalem is quiet. Furthermore, she states that a man in a white T-shirt incited the children and gathered people together for the shot. The Panorama report, dated September 20, 2001, quotes Communications Professor Martin Löffelholz explaining that in the images one sees jubilant Palestinian children and several adults but there is no indication that their pleasure is related to the attack. The woman seen cheering (Nawal Abdel Fatah) stated afterwards that she was offered cake if she celebrated on camera, and was frightened when she saw the pictures on television afterward.”
| 28 |
bratwurst Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:20:25pm |
re: #26 oaktree
I’m not sure how to take the 9/11 related commercials. Nice that they want to appear to care - but I also find it a bit tacky to still be essentially advertising a product using the event (even if indirectly).
This being one of the infamous examples:
| 29 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:21:31pm |
re: #28 bratwurst
This being one of the infamous examples:
Never saw that one before. That’s incredibly lame.
| 33 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:37:41pm |
re: #27 Sergey Romanov
The woman seen cheering (Nawal Abdel Fatah) stated afterwards that she was offered cake if she celebrated on camera, and was frightened when she saw the pictures on television afterward.”
oh, bullshit.
| 34 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:38:45pm |
| 35 |
Buck Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:39:23pm |
re: #33 Killgore Trout
oh, bullshit.
Serious bullshit. There were guns fired in celebration in many Palestinian towns (they are not camps). Reporters were threatened by the PA if they showed it.
It was not just a small localized event. It was all over.
| 36 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:41:04pm |
re: #35 Buck
Serious bullshit. There were guns fired in celebration in many Palestinian towns (they are not camps).
What do these supposed events have to do with the woman in question?
| 37 |
Buck Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:43:53pm |
that story about the woman makes it sound like it was “manufactured”, it was not. It was widespread, and spontaneous.
The PA were trying to stop it (because it embarrassed them), they were not offering cake to create it.
| 38 |
Lidane Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:47:46pm |
re: #36 Sergey Romanov
What do these supposed events have to do with the woman in question?
Personally, I’m sitting here wondering why it matters now what this woman did 10 years ago. The actions of a random civilian back then have less than zero significance now. It’s like using footage of an emotional American citizen on 9/11 back then to paint all Americans as Muslim-haters now.
| 39 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:50:52pm |
re: #27 Sergey Romanov
Offered her cake? That’s just wrong. Cake should never be used for evil.
| 40 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:53:44pm |
re: #39 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Offered her cake? That’s just wrong. Cake should never be used for evil.
Tell that to GLaDOS.
/spoiler: there really was a cake
//also pie is used for good, just ask alouette. :3
| 41 |
Feline Fearless Leader Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:53:53pm |
re: #39 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Offered her cake? That’s just wrong. Cake should never be used for evil.
Not even Devil’s Food?
| 42 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:54:16pm |
re: #38 Lidane
Indeed.
| 43 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:54:28pm |
| 44 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:56:23pm |
re: #43 Killgore Trout
Palestinians Celebrating 9/11 Attack
[Video]MSNBC, including quotes and names.
The cake is a lie?
/
| 45 |
Fozzie Bear Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:57:01pm |
re: #28 bratwurst
This being one of the infamous examples:
FREEDOM FRIES AREN’T FREE!!!
… oh wait… i guess they are.
| 46 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:57:12pm |
re: #43 Killgore Trout
(BTW, I didn’t know about that quote, so thanks.)
| 48 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:58:35pm |
re: #37 Buck
that story about the woman makes it sound like it was “manufactured”, it was not. It was widespread, and spontaneous.
The PA were trying to stop it (because it embarrassed them), they were not offering cake to create it.
These celebrations are also very common to celebrate successful terrorist attacks. The most recent one I recall was celebrating the guy who snuck into a settlement and stabbed a baby to death.
| 49 |
Jimmi the Grey Sun, Sep 11, 2011 12:59:49pm |
| 50 |
Buck Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:01:34pm |
re: #48 Killgore Trout
These celebrations are also very common to celebrate successful terrorist attacks. The most recent one I recall was celebrating the guy who snuck into a settlement and stabbed a baby to death.
Correct. And the celebrations they did when Iraqi scuds fell on Israel.
Just trying to imagine:
Go, make like you are celebrating… please? I will give you cake if you do.
| 51 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:03:37pm |
re: #50 Buck
Just trying to imagine:
Go, make like you are celebrating… please? I will give you cake if you do.
Nothing that is hard to imagine here. It just appears to be untrue from the quote that KT supplied, but there’s nothing “unimaginable” here.
| 52 |
researchok Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:04:45pm |
re: #43 Killgore Trout
Palestinians Celebrating 9/11 Attack
[Video]MSNBC, including quotes and names.
In a way, you can’t blame them. They have been poisoned by fanatical hate for generations. These kind of outbursts were knee jerk reactions without much thought given to them.
That said and understanding where they come from, it is absurd to ask them to sit down at peace negotiations and expect them to be reasonable, accommodating and to wipe away generations of hate with the wave of a hand. To believe that is a real suspension of of reality.
Asking Israel to negotiate with the Palestinians is a lot like asking the US to negotiate with Al Qaeda.
This isn’t about religion- it is about power, politics and hate.
| 53 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:05:11pm |
re: #27 Sergey Romanov
Reading [Link: en.wikipedia.org…] now.
Two things stand out for me:
“Huge crowds attended candlelit vigils in Iran, and 60,000 spectators observed a minute’s silence at Tehran football stadium.”
And about the infamous Palestinian celebration footage (the one with the ululating woman):
“Annette Krüger Spitta of the ARD’s (German public broadcasting) TV magazine Panorama states that footage not aired shows that the street surrounding the celebration in Jerusalem is quiet. Furthermore, she states that a man in a white T-shirt incited the children and gathered people together for the shot. The Panorama report, dated September 20, 2001, quotes Communications Professor Martin Löffelholz explaining that in the images one sees jubilant Palestinian children and several adults but there is no indication that their pleasure is related to the attack. The woman seen cheering (Nawal Abdel Fatah) stated afterwards that she was offered cake if she celebrated on camera, and was frightened when she saw the pictures on television afterward.”
Worth a repost for anyone interested in news coverage from that day, Paged: 9/11 Television News Archive.
| 54 |
jvic Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:05:26pm |
I logged in to express my respect to Charles, as unrelenting a polemicist as I’ve ever encountered, for not uttering a single partisan word about this anniversary.
And to express solidarity with all people of goodwill.
| 55 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:07:18pm |
re: #53 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Wow, that’s a worthy endeavor.
| 56 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:07:25pm |
re: #35 Buck
Serious bullshit. There were guns fired in celebration in many Palestinian towns (they are not camps). Reporters were threatened by the PA if they showed it.
It was not just a small localized event. It was all over.
Link?
| 57 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:08:17pm |
re: #54 jvic
I logged in to express my respect to Charles, as unrelenting a polemicist as I’ve ever encountered, for not uttering a single partisan word about this anniversary.
And to express solidarity with all people of goodwill.
A model to be the change you want to see in the world.
| 58 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:09:41pm |
re: #53 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Checking out the ABC segment. It’s divided into 35 seconds each for some reason. o_O
| 59 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:09:48pm |
re: #45 Fozzie Bear
FREEDOM FRIES AREN’T FREE!!!
… oh wait… i guess they are.
It would be a funny joke if they made them a buck o’five.
| 60 |
Buck Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:10:35pm |
re: #56 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Link?
The same wikipedia link in #27 to start with…
Fox News reported that in Ein el-Hilweh, Lebanon’s largest Palestinian refugee camp, revelers fired weapons in the air, with similar celebratory gunfire heard at the Rashidiyeh camp near the southern city of Tyre as well.[19]
Reports and images of Palestinians from East Jerusalem, Nablus, and Lebanon taking to the streets in celebration, were broadcast around the world.[19] with many newspapers, magazines, Web sites and wire services running photographs.
Do you need more?
| 61 |
Lidane Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:13:50pm |
Again— what do the actions of civilians ten years ago have to do with anything now? Someone explain this to me.
| 62 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:13:59pm |
re: #60 Buck
The same wikipedia link in #27 to start with…
Do you need more?
Interesting.
Am I to condemn all Irish because of the IRA?
All Americans because of the KKK?
All Israelis because of the Kahanists?
| 63 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:14:20pm |
re: #60 Buck
For “more” you should have provided something to begin with. The only source for that paragraph is Fox News, which is not a legitimate source.
| 64 |
Jimmi the Grey Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:14:24pm |
re: #54 jvic
It is good to be reminded we are not alone. Thx
| 65 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:15:44pm |
re: #60 Buck
If the claim that “Reports and images of Palestinians from East Jerusalem, Nablus, and Lebanon taking to the streets in celebration, were broadcast around the world.” were true, why we only see the same East Jerusalem footage?
| 66 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:16:20pm |
re: #60 Buck
The same wikipedia link in #27 to start with…
Do you need more?
Well no, you need more than just a wikipedia reference to the Fox News Victory Mosque, to substantiate your claim that “it was all over”.
| 67 |
simoom Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:16:32pm |
A StoryCorps animated short:
John Vigiano Sr. is a retired New York City firefighter whose two sons followed him into service—John Jr. was a firefighter, too, and Joe was a police detective. On September 11, 2001, both Vigiano brothers responded to the call from the World Trade Center, and both were killed while saving others. Here, John Sr. remembers his sons and reflects on coping with his tremendous loss.
| 68 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:17:27pm |
Palestinians Party on September 11
AP and Reuters ran the pics. They shouldn’t be hard to hunt down for those who are skeptical.
| 69 |
Buck Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:19:48pm |
re: #63 Sergey Romanov
For “more” you should have provided something to begin with. The only source for that paragraph is Fox News, which is not a legitimate source.
Of course they aren’t. You are right as usual…
| 70 |
Lidane Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:21:14pm |
More mood music. I’m on a U2 kick today:
Say what you want about Bono, but this album is amazing and ten years ago, I had it on constant replay.
| 71 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:21:29pm |
re: #68 Killgore Trout
What does anyone have to gain by pretending that it didn’t happen?
| 72 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:21:38pm |
re: #68 Killgore Trout
Palestinians Party on September 11
AP and Reuters ran the pics. They shouldn’t be hard to hunt down for those who are skeptical.
I’m not skeptical of the idea that “Palestinians celebrated” on 9/11 at all. I’m deeply skeptical of any claims made by rwnj on the topic, and equally skeptical of any sources they rely on for their information.
| 73 |
Stanghazi Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:21:49pm |
re: #67 simoom
A StoryCorps animated short:
[Video]
I love StoryCorps. I hear them every Friday on my drive to work. Always pissed I mess up my makeup with the tears. I can’t watch this right now though. Will later maybe.
| 74 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:22:18pm |
re: #66 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Well no, you need more than just a wikipedia reference to the Fox News Victory Mosque, to substantiate your claim that “it was all over”.
Arafat said he is horrified by terror attacks in U.S., but Palestinians celebrate in the streets
Posted: Tuesday, September 11, 2001
By By Mohammed Daraghmeh
The Associated Press
NABLUS, West Bank — Thousands of Palestinians celebrated this morning’s terror attacks in the United States, chanting “God is Great” and distributing candy to passers-by, even as their leader, Yasser Arafat, said he was horrified.
The U.S. government has become increasingly unpopular in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the past year of Israeli-Palestinian fighting, with many Palestinians accusing Washington of siding with Israel.
In the West Bank town of Nablus, about 3,000 people poured into the street shortly after the attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and government targets in Washington.
Demonstrators distributed candy in a traditional gesture of celebration. Several Palestinian gunmen shot in the air, while other marchers carried Palestinian flags. Nawal Abdel Fatah, 48, wearing a long, black dress, threw sweets in the air, saying she was happy because “America is the head of the snake, America always stands by Israel in its war against us.”
Her daughter Maysoon, 22, said she hoped the next attack would be launched against Tel Aviv.
| 75 |
Lidane Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:22:37pm |
re: #68 Killgore Trout
I don’t think anyone doubts that the pictures exist. The question is, what does any of that matter ten years later?
I just want an explanation for why this is so important today.
| 76 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:23:56pm |
A Palestinian fires his rifle in celebration at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon, September 11, 2001. Arab leaders voice shock and horror at devastating attacks that leveled symbols of American power Tuesday, but a chorus of cheers rose from streets that resent U.S. backing of Israel. (Ali Hashisho/Reuters)
- Sep 11 4:35 PM ETPalestinian youth dance at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near Sidon in south Lebanon, September 11, 2001. Palestinians at refugee camps in Lebanon celebrated news of attacks on major U.S. landmarks and government offices. (Ali Hashisho/Reuters)
- Sep 11 2:27 PM ETA Palestinian guerilla fires from his rifle, as children dance around him at Ain al-Hilweh refugee camp near the port city Sidon in south Lebanon, September 11, 2001. Palestinians in Lebanon met news of attacks on American targets on Tuesday with jubilant gunfire, dancing and cheering, saying Israel’s chief backer deserved such a punishment. REUTERS/Ali Hashisho
- Sep 11 2:25 PM ET
Wow! Two (2) Palestinians fire from rifles. That transforms into “There were guns fired in celebration in many Palestinian towns”.
| 77 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:27:03pm |
re: #74 Killgore Trout
Arafat said he is horrified by terror attacks in U.S., but Palestinians celebrate in the streets
Ok, that’s two. One and a half, really, since Fox Victory Mosque was just rehashing the one you posted.
Again: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]
Buck’s claim was “it was all over”. He should prove it, or retract the claim.
| 78 |
bratwurst Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:27:31pm |
re: #75 Lidane
I just want an explanation for why this is so important today.
Some people don’t know how to take a day off from grinding their own political axe?
| 80 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:28:46pm |
re: #68 Killgore Trout
Palestinians Party on September 11
AP and Reuters ran the pics. They shouldn’t be hard to hunt down for those who are skeptical.
Hey, looks like those pictures have gone missing. Must be another of my nefarious plots.
| 81 |
researchok Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:30:34pm |
re: #75 Lidane
I don’t think anyone doubts that the pictures exist. The question is, what does any of that matter ten years later?
I just want an explanation for why this is so important today.
I agree with you. In and of themselves the images are irrelevant.
What is germane is the reality that for the most part. the attitudes remain the same. Therein lies the real problem.
| 82 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:30:43pm |
re: #75 Lidane
I think it goes to that there weren’t only 19 lone airplane passengers who wanted to see dead Americans; but a whole bunch of fanatics from the Muslim world.
Not all Muslims, and not even a majority of Muslims; but there are many who rejoice in whatever bad befalls America.
I think it matters.
| 83 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:31:25pm |
re: #80 Charles
Hey, looks like those pictures have gone missing. Must be another of my nefarious plots.
CharlesGate!
| 84 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:31:34pm |
re: #78 bratwurst
Some people don’t know how to take a day off from grinding their own political axe?
The topic was brought up on #27. Is it wrong to correct bogus claims now? Does it offend you? The AP reporter claiming thousands of Palestinians celebrated the attacks was named Mohamed. Was he a neocon Fox plant?
| 85 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:32:25pm |
re: #74 Killgore Trout
Waitaminute. Not to dispute the celebrations, but to follow up on the details about the woman as discussed above:
In the West Bank town of Nablus, about 3,000 people poured into the street shortly after the attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and government targets in Washington.
Demonstrators distributed candy in a traditional gesture of celebration. Several Palestinian gunmen shot in the air, while other marchers carried Palestinian flags. Nawal Abdel Fatah, 48, wearing a long, black dress, threw sweets in the air, saying she was happy because “America is the head of the snake, America always stands by Israel in its war against us.”
Since this is Nablus and not East Jerusalem, this is *not* the woman in the video. So the quote doesn’t refute the woman’s explanation.
Though of course with 3000 people it is irrelevant if the footage was staged or not. Still, this is a small minority, as Nablus has 126 thousand people.
| 86 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:32:47pm |
| 87 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:33:38pm |
re: #84 Killgore Trout
The topic was brought up on #27. Is it wrong to correct bogus claims now? Does it offend you? The AP reporter claiming thousands of Palestinians celebrated the attacks was named Mohamed. Was he a neocon Fox plant?
Yes, I see that they celebrated. A number of them.
What’s your point?
What am I to take away from their celebration?
| 88 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:34:05pm |
re: #87 Varek Raith
Yes, I see that they celebrated. A number of them.
What’s your point?
What am I to take away from their celebration?
That there are assholes, no matter where on Earth you travel?
| 89 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:34:13pm |
re: #82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Baldfaced assertions, e.g. the stories “were all over” don’t prove the claims of widespread hate. People can’t even prove “it was all over”. Paranoid people believe what they want to believe, including their own self-generated lies.
| 90 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:34:41pm |
re: #88 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
That there are assholes, no matter where on Earth you travel?
No shit!
Give this man a medal!
| 91 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:36:03pm |
re: #90 Varek Raith
A freaking medal?
| 92 |
researchok Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:36:29pm |
re: #85 Sergey Romanov
Waitaminute. Not to disute the celebrations, but to follow up on the details about the woman as discussed above:
Since this is Nablus and not East Jerusalem, this is *not* the woman in the video. So the quote doesn’t refute the woman’s explanation.
Though of course with 3000 people it is irrelevant if the footage was staged or not. Still, this is a small minority, as Nablus has 126 thousand people.
It’s the ‘gray area’ that concerns me.
Fareed Zakaria just noted on CNN that 3 out of 4 Egyptians do not believe 9/11 was a carried out by Arabs but rather they were victims of a conspiracy.
That amounts to a rather large stew of resentment which can lead to all kinds of extremism.
(On CNN Now, Irshad Manji, Fukayama and more)
| 93 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:36:29pm |
re: #91 Sergey Romanov
We don’t need no freaking medals!
| 94 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:37:07pm |
re: #89 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Interesting that acc. to the article KT posted, in EJ (as shown in that footage) the rally consisted of two dozen people.
| 95 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:37:31pm |
re: #92 researchok
Fukayama
Lol what, he came out of the woodwork for the occasion? He abandoned neoconnism after 9/11. Good on him.
| 96 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:38:08pm |
re: #89 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
And saying it’s not a big deal over and over does not make it not a big deal.
| 97 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:38:24pm |
re: #94 Sergey Romanov
Interesting that acc. to the article KT posted, in EJ (as shown in that footage) the rally consisted of two dozen people.
Lol sounds about like attendance at today’s tea party rallies. //
| 98 |
Obdicut Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:38:27pm |
re: #87 Varek Raith
The level of actual support for terrorist attacks by people in the Middle East is difficult to quantify.
[Link: pewresearch.org…]
But it’s certainly higher than is desirable.
I don’t have the link here, but the wording is very important. If you ask US citizens whether an attack by the army or air force against a civilian target is ever justified, a majority say yes. If you ask if a terrorist attack against a civilian target is ever justified, most say no, though a surprisingly large number say yes.
| 99 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:38:41pm |
re: #92 researchok
Well, yeah. As I said, I hope we won’t miss “good old” Mubarak.
| 100 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:38:49pm |
re: #96 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
And saying it’s not a big deal over and over does not make it not a big deal.
Who is saying that, let alone over and over?
| 101 |
Lidane Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:39:10pm |
re: #82 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I think it goes to that there weren’t only 19 lone airplane passengers who wanted to see dead Americans; but a whole bunch of fanatics from the Muslim world.
Not all Muslims, and not even a majority of Muslims; but there are many who rejoice in whatever bad befalls America.
I think it matters.
There are more than 19 fanatics in this country who are not only American, but who actively rejoice when something bad happens in this country, including our soldiers and citizens dying. The most obvious example are the Westboro Baptist nutjobs, but there are others out there on both sides of the political spectrum.
They’re obviously not a majority of Americans, and nowhere near a majority of Christians, but they exist.
I get the point that we shouldn’t forget that there are people who hate us and want bad things to happen to America, but they’re here too. We don’t need to look to the Palestinians or to the Middle East for that.
| 102 |
researchok Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:40:51pm |
re: #95 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Lol what, he came out of the woodwork for the occasion? He abandoned neoconnism after 9/11. Good on him.
Yes he did but that speaks to his politics.
He is one brilliant guy.
| 103 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:40:54pm |
re: #85 Sergey Romanov
Waitaminute. Not to disute the celebrations, but to follow up on the details about the woman as discussed above:
Since this is Nablus and not East Jerusalem, this is *not* the woman in the video. So the quote doesn’t refute the woman’s explanation.
Though of course with 3000 people it is irrelevant if the footage was staged or not. Still, this is a small minority, as Nablus has 126 thousand people.
Why keep bring up some crap just because it’s in a wiki article> The source links are all dead and there’s no credibility to the claims of some German crackpot nobody has ever heard of before. People put shit in wikipedia all the the time. It does not make it true. We have reports of widespread celebrations from CNN, MSNBC, FOX, AP, Reuters, etc. There’s no reason to believe the woman was tricked into celebrating with the promise of cake.
| 104 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:41:17pm |
re: #69 Buck
Of course they aren’t. You are right as usual…
Don’t be an ass. KT provided good sources above.
| 105 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:44:25pm |
re: #103 Killgore Trout
Why keep bring up some crap just because it’s in a wiki article> The source links are all dead and there’s no credibility to the claims of some German crackpot nobody has ever heard of before. People put shit in wikipedia all the the time. It does not make it true. We have reports of widespread celebrations from CNN, MSNBC, FOX, AP, Reuters, etc. There’s no reason to believe the woman was tricked into celebrating with the promise of cake.
Tell Buck, since he’s the one pointing people to that wiki link. Your own link was repurposed by Fox, the source in the wiki article.
Still waiting on this “it was all over” proof from Buck, if he’s still around. It may have been “all over”, it may not have been. I just haven’t seen much evidence for his claim.
| 106 |
Obdicut Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:44:34pm |
However, Palestinians are more radical than most of the rest of the Middle East.
[Link: www.pcpsr.org…]
70% believe that armed confrontations have helped achieve Palestinian national rights in ways that negotiations could not
52% support, and 46% oppose, bombing attacks against civilians inside Israel, but more that 90% support armed attacks against soldiers and settlers
You can also see from that poll that they hate the PA and believe they’re totally corrupt.
And they’re about divided on whether to recognize Israel.
A majority of 52% agree and 46% disagree with the proposal calling for mutual recognition of Israel as the state of the Jewish people and Palestine as the state of the Palestinian people after the establishment of a Palestinian state and the settlement of all issues of the conflict
| 107 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:44:45pm |
re: #103 Killgore Trout
We just misunderstand what happened, KT.
I knew this argument would start today. See y’all tomorrow.
| 108 |
researchok Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:44:57pm |
re: #99 Sergey Romanov
Well, yeah. As I said, I hope we won’t miss “good old” Mubarak.
Fair enough.
I hope.
| 109 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:45:48pm |
re: #103 Killgore Trout
Why keep bring up some crap just because it’s in a wiki article> The source links are all dead and there’s no credibility to the claims of some German crackpot nobody has ever heard of before. People put shit in wikipedia all the the time. It does not make it true. We have reports of widespread celebrations from CNN, MSNBC, FOX, AP, Reuters, etc. There’s no reason to believe the woman was tricked into celebrating with the promise of cake.
I checked the links before posting. I know they’re broken, but it’s not hard to find the original reporting, e.g. at spiegel.de
I don’t know what “German crackpot” you’re talking about. If the woman who investigated the case, you have no evidence of crackpottery. The Palestinian woman denied genuine celebration and said she didn’t approve of the attacks. Why? If she truly had no compunction celebrating before the cameras, there wouldn’t have been any problem for her to express her hate in private.
I’m not saying she should be believed. But her words do cast doubt on that particular piece of reporting. It’s a he said, she said.
And I already agreed that whether she celebrated or not is irrelevant, since the celebrations were real. A small extremist minority indeed celebrated.
| 110 |
Obdicut Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:47:28pm |
To be clear: Although pictures of people celebrating the 9/11 attacks are gut-wrenching and make me writhe with anger, they’re not anything to base anything from. The polls, however, although done in a challenging environment I think give a better picture, and of the Palestinians it certainly shows a people dedicated to the conflict and to the idea that armed conflict has produced better results than peaceful negotiation.
It also shows how fundamentally broken their government and society are, with a total lack of trust in their own government.
| 111 |
satrap Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:47:56pm |
This is a personal shout-out and salute to Charles Johnson, a blogger I discovered in September 2001 when, I vaguely he had a blog called Little Green Footballs with it’s focus on- help me here- graphic design? I remember reading about his odd experience with the King Fahd Mosque in LA- a little boy whirling around and pointing a fake gun at Charles’ receding car- after 9/11 and I joined him on his Neocon journey and eventual reentry into political normality. My journey mirrors his.
The last 10 years has been a helluva ride- tragic, of course, but also really embarassingly exciting at times. Learning about jihadists, salafists, wahhabists, etc. was both depressing and fascinating.
Hats off to this blog for being so amazing during those early post-disaster years and for being a voice of sanity in the later ones!
| 112 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:48:17pm |
There really were thousands of Palestinians celebrating the attacks. I watched some of the coverage as it happened.
I’m sure it wasn’t everyone in the Palestinian areas. But it was more than a few.
At the time, as someone who knew only a little about Middle East politics, it blew my mind. I was still reeling from what I’d seen that morning, and the idea that any human being could take joy from it was hard to comprehend.
| 113 |
Obdicut Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:50:16pm |
Was it the pictures of Palestinians celebrating that led Victor David Hanson to start in with the utter bilge of “Culture of life/culture of death” that doesn’t stand up to even the tiniest scrutiny?
It’s really depressing that the Palestinians believe that armed conflict has gotten them better bargaining positions than peaceful negotiation would have. I don’t really understand how they can fundamentally distrust their leaders and think that at the same time.
| 114 |
Varek Raith Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:50:40pm |
re: #112 Charles
There really were thousands of Palestinians celebrating the attacks. I watched some of the coverage as it happened.
I’m sure it wasn’t everyone in the Palestinian areas. But it was more than a few.
At the time, as someone who knew only a little about Middle East politics, it blew my mind. I was still reeling from what I’d seen that morning, and the idea that any human being could take joy from it was hard to comprehend.
I completely agree.
I just took the current discussion as a “You must condemn them all!” kind of vibe to it.
I’m talented at jumping sharks sometimes.
| 115 |
Obdicut Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:51:52pm |
re: #110 Obdicut
And I should say the polls show more than Palestinians dedicated to the conflict, they show a very high support for terrorist attacks on civilians, and overwhelming support for military conflict— even though they must know in a pure military conflict they would not be able to win. Or maybe they don’t know, maybe they don’t actually know.
| 116 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:52:06pm |
I would no more judge Palestinians by a small handful of celebrating extremists (tho this handful does consist of thousands) than I would Israelis by a handful of mosque-defacing extremists.
The better gauge is the support for Hamas by a significant portion, as well as the polls Obdi cited above.
| 117 |
Alexzander Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:53:02pm |
re: #112 Charles
There really were thousands of Palestinians celebrating the attacks. I watched some of the coverage as it happened.
I’m sure it wasn’t everyone in the Palestinian areas. But it was more than a few.
At the time, as someone who knew only a little about Middle East politics, it blew my mind. I was still reeling from what I’d seen that morning, and the idea that any human being could take joy from it was hard to comprehend.
Unfortunately, the “ultimate justice” is subjective.
| 118 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:53:20pm |
re: #115 Obdicut
And I should say the polls show more than Palestinians dedicated to the conflict, they show a very high support for terrorist attacks on civilians, and overwhelming support for military conflict— even though they must know in a pure military conflict they would not be able to win. Or maybe they don’t know, maybe they don’t actually know.
True - I’ve had links to many Palestinian polls, and they consistently show those kinds of results.
| 119 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:54:14pm |
re: #113 Obdicut
Was it the pictures of Palestinians celebrating that led Victor David Hanson to start in with the utter bilge of “Culture of life/culture of death” that doesn’t stand up to even the tiniest scrutiny?
It’s really depressing that the Palestinians believe that armed conflict has gotten them better bargaining positions than peaceful negotiation would have. I don’t really understand how they can fundamentally distrust their leaders and think that at the same time.
It’s generally be a historical, as well as cultural belief, that the best bargaining position is one from “strength.” That making your enemy know you can blow up him and his kin without breaking a sweat will make him more likely to accept concessions that he might otherwise refuse. Combine that with generations of propaganda about how they are the wronged people, they are the ones who had their land taken from them, and the only they’ll get it back is to wipe the Zionists from the land and into the sea, and it’s not hard to understand why they continue to believe the only option is to keep fighting.
| 120 |
Obdicut Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:56:23pm |
re: #118 Charles
I should point out that the institute I’m citing from is a Palestinian one with, I believe, an exclusively Muslim board and employees. Obviously they might have their own agenda but they’re cited by the Christian Science Monitor quite frequently, which is one of the last good newspapers in the goddamn world.
| 121 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:58:01pm |
re: #117 Alexzander
There’s a non-trivial difference between criminals convicted in a court, with due process, and people who went to work in a New York office building, wouldn’t you say?
The cheering at the GOP debate was ugly, sure, but not even close to being the equivalent to cheering for a terrorist sneak attack on thousands of innocent people.
| 122 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:58:39pm |
BTW, the reason I started googling about this footage in the first place is because Pam linked to it from her memorial posting blaming “Muslims”.
| 123 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:59:00pm |
re: #112 Charles
There really were thousands of Palestinians celebrating the attacks. I watched some of the coverage as it happened.
I’m sure it wasn’t everyone in the Palestinian areas. But it was more than a few.
At the time, as someone who knew only a little about Middle East politics, it blew my mind. I was still reeling from what I’d seen that morning, and the idea that any human being could take joy from it was hard to comprehend.
I remember the reports at the time, myself, so I don’t doubt it happened. My q to someone who tells me “it was all over” is, shouldn’t it be easy to link, if indeed it was all over? They should check the internet before making such claims.
| 124 |
Amory Blaine Sun, Sep 11, 2011 1:59:26pm |
From our front, in our day to day lives we can offer hands of kindness to all middle-eastern people. It is a good example to set for when word gets back there, that uncle so and so says Americans are kind people.
| 125 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:02:09pm |
re: #119 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
It’s generally be a historical, as well as cultural belief, that the best bargaining position is one from “strength.” That making your enemy know you can blow up him and his kin without breaking a sweat will make him more likely to accept concessions that he might otherwise refuse.
It’s shared by many rwnj in this country.
| 126 |
TedStriker Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:02:49pm |
re: #119 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
It’s generally be a historical, as well as cultural belief, that the best bargaining position is one from “strength.” That making your enemy know you can blow up him and his kin without breaking a sweat will make him more likely to accept concessions that he might otherwise refuse. Combine that with generations of propaganda about how they are the wronged people, they are the ones who had their land taken from them, and the only they’ll get it back is to wipe the Zionists from the land and into the sea, and it’s not hard to understand why they continue to believe the only option is to keep fighting.
Diplomacy of the sword/gun/etc….practiced by just about every nation and many smaller groups on this planet at one time or another. Doesn’t necessarily make it right, but it is a seductive option, especially when it seems you have nothing to lose.
That said, I do not agree with its use by the Palestinians and their leadership. Lasting peace and co-existence takes real diplomacy and a willingness to compromise, something the Palestinians have been short on for years.
| 127 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:05:00pm |
re: #116 Sergey Romanov
I would no more judge Palestinians by a small handful of celebrating extremists (tho this handful does consist of thousands) than I would Israelis by a handful of mosque-defacing extremists.
…or judging Americans by our mosque-defacing extremists, synagogue-defacing ones, or church-burning ones, either.
| 128 |
MicheleR Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:06:44pm |
A very interesting discussion- not to open up the worn can again, but I had forgotten about the footage showing celebration on 9-11.
Hello to you all on this very emotional day.
| 129 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:07:06pm |
re: #127 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Extremist Palestinians go out and “celebrate”. Extremist wingnuts usually don’t, they go to freep and wet-dream about some blood-letting in the Middle East. Oh, and nuking Mecca. Same people, different circumstances.
| 130 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:11:19pm |
re: #129 Sergey Romanov
Extremist Palestinians go out and “celebrate”. Extremist wingnuts usually don’t, they go to freep and wet-dream about some blood-letting in the Middle East. Oh, and nuking Mecca. Same people, different circumstances.
Yes..people who will use any pretext, small, large, grand-scale, or even no pretext at all, to continue wallowing in their violent cowardice.
| 131 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:16:59pm |
One reason some people are a bit defensive about insisting on the facts about Palestinians celebrating after 9/11 is that for years, there was a very determined propaganda campaign to deny that it ever happened at all. Some journalists in the Middle East received threats.
And there were more than a few left wing sites that uncritically repeated this propaganda and attacked anyone who spoke up to refute it.
There’s propaganda from both sides, sure - right wingers also use this footage to demonize Muslims and Palestinians in general. We know that.
But it’s a fact, it happened. Nobody benefits from denying facts.
| 132 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:19:44pm |
re: #122 Sergey Romanov
BTW, the reason I started googling about this footage in the first place is because Pam linked to it from her memorial posting blaming “Muslims”.
That was the whole reason we here at LGF warned Pam, Spencer and the rest of the wingnuts when they started associating with European Fascists and spreading insane conspiracy theories. They lost their credibility and everything they claim (whether true or not) is now suspect. They actually do much more damage to their own causes than anyone else.
| 133 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:22:24pm |
re: #131 Charles
Yeah, I’ve seen many claims of reusage of old footage. Those were swatted by Snopes, as usual.
| 134 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:23:43pm |
re: #132 Killgore Trout
Agreed. Sometimes they may even say true things, sometimes even things that may need to be said, and they won’t be heard because of who said them.
| 135 |
Gepetto Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:24:49pm |
re: #76 Sergey Romanov
Wow! Two (2) Palestinians fire from rifles. That transforms into “There were guns fired in celebration in many Palestinian towns”.
do you really think journalists bothered to document every Palestinian gunshot that day? Of course they celebrated, and gunshots are usually part of the celebration. what does this matter?
| 136 |
Lidane Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:26:09pm |
There’s no doubt in my mind that the celebrations happened. Assholes are everywhere, across all religious, ethnic, cultural, and geographic boundaries.
I also don’t doubt that the footage has been used by wingnuts to demonize and dehumanize all Muslims across the board.
It’s just a shitty situation all around.
| 137 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:30:12pm |
re: #136 Lidane
There’s no doubt in my mind that the celebrations happened. Assholes are everywhere, across all religious, ethnic, cultural, and geographic boundaries.
I also don’t doubt that the footage has been used by wingnuts to demonize and dehumanize all Muslims across the board.
It’s just a shitty situation all around.
I really don’t think it’s reasonable to chalk up the Palestinian celebrations to a few assholes just like everywhere else in the world. Support for terrorism is pretty common among Palestinians. That’s why they elected a terrorist group to rule Gaza. Terrorism has widespread support among the Palestinians.
| 138 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:33:11pm |
re: #135 Gepetto
do you really think journalists bothered to document every Palestinian gunshot that day? Of course they celebrated, and gunshots are usually part of the celebration. what does this matter?
“What does this matter?” is a good question. Is it fair to present the US to foreigners by picking the worst footage/news items, like the Phelps pickets or Tea Party rallies? Kavkaz Center (I hope you know what it is) has a whole section where they post news items about the “decadent West”. All the murders, rapes, gay marriage ( ;) ), Koran burnings, whatever. If they were my “window” to the West, I would think it’s some hellhole.
Things like these celebrations need to be reported, but e.g. in hands of Pam and some other bigots and/or racists the footage in question becomes nothing but a tool to promote their particular bigotries (be it anti-Muslim bigotry or anti-Palestinian racism). And in the larger scheme of things these specific celebrations indeed don’t matter much.
| 139 |
Lidane Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:35:15pm |
re: #137 Killgore Trout
Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not minimizing this at all. HOWEVER, the Palestinians don’t speak for all Muslims around the world.
My biggest issue is that this footage has been used to dehumanize and demonize ALL Muslims by people like Pam Geller and Robert Spencer and by the right wing blogosphere, and to great effect. I have friends that are now so scared and paranoid, even ten years later, that they *still* look for threats everywhere they go. I think this stuff has to be handled with care. That’s all.
| 140 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:42:32pm |
re: #139 Lidane
“Handled with care” - yes. E.g. the torture and abuse photos from Abu Ghraib and elsewhere are so bad that they won’t be declassified in the nearest future. Because it would cause backlash. This wouldn’t be a reasonable or justifiable backlash, but it would be expected. Visuals have that power.
Which is why “damning footage” of all sorts is used over and over again. To cause backlash - not against these particular culprits, but against whole groups of people.
| 141 |
goddamnedfrank Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:44:09pm |
“They project their own evil onto the world. They never think of themselves as evil; on the other hand, they consequently see much evil in others…Evil, then, is most often committed in order to scapegoat, and the people I label as evil are chronic scapegoaters….The evil attack others instead of facing their own failures.”M. Scott Peck, The People of the Lie pg 73-74
| 143 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:50:20pm |
Case in point are anti-Caucasian racists here in Russia. They really got this shtick down - they post pages and pages of real videos of migrants/Caucasians doing unsavory things in Moscow, Chechnya and elsewhere, or at least appearing doing them. E.g. footage of a small Chechen child (somewhere in Western Europe, mind you) who already wants to kill some Russians. Or videos of beatings of ethnic Russians by Caucasians. Or just videos of some Chechens and Ingushs dancing lezginka in the center of Moscow, or simply not being very quiet.
All of this is “factual”, i.e. it somehow represents parts of reality. But it’s no coincidence that it’s skinheads who like to post this stuff.
| 144 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:56:34pm |
re: #4 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Can’t imagine it Jeffrey. I’m a sane, reasonable human.
Great piece.
The part you quoted there from that article is the part of this thing that I remember most of all - they didn’t get empty planes, they took planes full of people, men, women and children - and flew them into the buildings.
How could anybody do such a thing?
| 146 |
Kronocide Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:58:56pm |
Among the befogged we should include another class of putative intellectuals, those who argue that al Qaeda represents Islam’s true face, and that 9/11 marked the latest round in a war for global supremacy between two competing civilizations. This is nonsense…With the murderous sociopaths of al Qaeda there is no compromise, but we will only defeat al Qaeda with the cooperation of the great mass of Muslims, and we won’t have their support if we demonize their faith.
Nice essay Goldberg.
| 147 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 2:59:48pm |
re: #143 Sergey Romanov
Reminds me of the incessant, deeply cherished propaganda about those supposed “dancing Israelis” and “art students” e_e. That crud is still proliferated to this day by WRH, rense, A. Jones, etc.
| 148 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:01:49pm |
re: #147 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Indeed, as if they represented all Israelis (assuming their actions weren’t misrepresented).
| 149 |
HappyWarrior Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:04:07pm |
Powerful piece by Goldberg. Broke my heart reading about that little girl and her family. I had never read that story before.
| 150 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:07:35pm |
re: #147 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Reminds me of the incessant, deeply cherished propaganda about those supposed “dancing Israelis” and “art students” e_e. That crud is still proliferated to this day by WRH, rense, A. Jones, etc.
Which reminds me.
FUCK THE TWOOFERS.
my yearly 9/11 address, as it were.
| 151 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:07:53pm |
re: #148 Sergey Romanov
Indeed, as if they represented all Israelis (assuming their actions weren’t misrepresented).
Israelis, Jews, “Zionism”, blah blah blah. The scapegoat’s first go-to.
| 152 |
Kronocide Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:08:19pm |
In the Indianapolis airport there is a little memorial with a flag, all names of those killed. Some other things, don’t know if they were artifacts or not.
But the piece I beam section was pretty heavy. Had to touch it.
| 153 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:10:39pm |
Watching “Rising” on Sci right now, on the building of the new Tower 1. It’s obviously dated, so how’s that going along down there right now?
| 154 |
TedStriker Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:12:49pm |
re: #153 laZardo
Watching “Rising” on Sci right now, on the building of the new Tower 1. It’s obviously dated, so how’s that going along down there right now?
I saw part of it; it’s not really that dated, because the segment dealing with the memorial in the original WTC footprints was talking about their progress as of 3-4 months ago.
However, Spielberg and crew have been working on this series for a couple of years or so, covering the reconstruction of the whole site.
| 155 |
OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:14:26pm |
re: #151 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Israelis, Jews, “Zionism”, blah blah blah. The
scapegoat’sfirst go-to.
Scapegoater’s
| 156 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:15:10pm |
Get ready for a shittier than normal Monday…..
Germany May be Ready to Surrender Over Greece
Germany may be getting ready to give up on Greece.
After almost two years of fighting to contain the region’s debt crisis and providing the biggest share of three European bailouts, Chancellor Angela Merkel is laying the ground for what markets say is almost a sure thing: a Greek default.
“It feels like Germany is preparing itself for a debt default,” Jacques Cailloux, chief European economist at Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc in London, said in an interview. “Fatigue is setting in. Germany could be a first mover or other countries could be preparing too.”
| 157 |
Targetpractice Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:16:35pm |
re: #156 Killgore Trout
Get ready for a shittier than normal Monday…
Germany May be Ready to Surrender Over Greece
Times like these, I’m glad I don’t have stocks.
| 158 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:16:36pm |
re: #156 Killgore Trout
shit
| 159 |
simoom Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:18:29pm |
A sort of surprising bit of Gallup polling:
[Link: www.gallup.com…]
… a new brief released Friday by the Abu Dhabi Gallup Center, Views of Violence, based on Gallup surveys conducted between 2008 and 2010. Views of Violence examines public acceptance and rejection of attacks on civilians worldwide and what influences these attitudes.
…
Many of the world’s residents agree that military attacks that target civilians are never justified, with a clear majority in Asia and the MENA region finding military attacks against civilians unacceptable. This is not surprising considering the acute conflicts raging in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and other parts of the Middle East. Residents of the U.S. and Canada are the most likely population in the world to believe military attacks targeting civilians are sometimes justified, with nearly half (47%) sharing this sentiment.
…
The identity of the attacker makes a difference to some people when weighing the justification of targeting civilians. When attacks are committed by a military, Americans and Canadians find them more acceptable (47% sometimes justified) than when they are committed by an individual (21% sometimes justified). Europeans, too, make a distinction, and are more likely to reject individual attacks than military attacks by eight percentage points.
I wonder what effect combining the U.S & Canadian results into a single block had (are their views closer to ours or perhaps closer to the Europeans?).
| 160 |
laZardo Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:19:23pm |
re: #157 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Times like these, I’m glad I don’t have stocks.
Should’ve stuck with the gold.
| 161 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:19:51pm |
re: #159 simoom
Heh. Another case in point.
| 162 |
albusteve Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:24:47pm |
my measly contribution….
Ten Years After
Change The World
| 163 |
TedStriker Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:26:39pm |
re: #156 Killgore Trout
Get ready for a shittier than normal Monday…
Germany May be Ready to Surrender Over Greece
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccc…
| 164 |
Gus Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:29:27pm |
OK, done driving. Almost in Utah. Just wanted to say something. It’s crazy out here. You go into these small towns along the interstate and the prices are nucking futz. How can people make ends meet anymore? This is nuts. I’m spending money like water and I’m on a low budget. Thank you for your time and may God bless America.
Carry on.
| 165 |
Gus Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:31:05pm |
Oh. And Nevada is boring. Did I say Nevada is boring? Yeesh. It’s a damn moonscape over here.
| 166 |
jaunte Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:41:19pm |
re: #165 Gus 802
Are you stopping in Wendover?
Image: nearWendover.jpg
| 167 |
Gus Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:42:33pm |
re: #166 jaunte
Are you stopping in Wendover?
Image: nearWendover.jpg
Gonna pass through. It was cloudy today. Lots of haze. Bleh.
| 168 |
Vicious Babushka Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:47:55pm |
I just saw this awesome rainbow outside my house.
(sorry if the photo doesn’t look so awesome. I totally suck at taking pictures.)
| 169 |
Idle Drifter Sun, Sep 11, 2011 3:48:10pm |
Well my two cents about today.
I remember coming in from morning PT at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, AZ. My mind was drifting to thoughts of driving my stuff back to Michigan to visit family and spend time in the U.P. hunting deer and spending Thanksgiving watching football and eating turkey with Mom, Dad, and my siblings. Little more than a month later after returning from leave I would deploy with the 13th MEU on a 6 month tour of the Pacific.
Those thoughts were quieted by the Barracks Duty NCO telling me that a plane had crashed into the Capitol Building in Washington D.C. I spent nearly an hour watching live News footage from New York City and Washington D.C. I remember turning to the TV after a short conversation with some other Marines to witness the second plane crash into the second tower live on television. We all were dumb founded. What the hell were we watching!
Shortly after the entire base went on alert and weapons were carried in condition 1 (weapons loaded with a round in the chamber) by Marines on guard duty. My leave was cut short and my sea duty extended to over eight months. Eight months of staring the grey walls of the Bonnie Dick LHD-6 with short bits of reprieve in Australia, Thailand, and Singapore. Fixing avionics to ensure our birds did their job attacking targets in Afghanistan. Then I returned to the states and left the Marine Corps. My time in was up.
But now it seems like a dream the more I think about it. At times I felt guilty for not doing more or even getting some patrol or trigger time. Those feelings have faded away.
I just got done spending time up at Birch Lake near Elk Rapids, MI. A beautiful little patch of heaven before the harsh winter hits the Great Lakes. We were all there. Mom, Dad, and my Siblings with their significant others (I’m still single, long story). My little brother got leave after serving an 8 month tour in Afghanistan. He only saw two I.E.D. attacks the whole time he was there which was mostly spent staring at goat herds and the vast nothing that is Afghanistan’s high desert.
He too confined in me the same feelings of not doing enough and being in what many would consider a thankless military role. I explained to him we both did our duty and while we never fired a shot in anger and will be forgotten to history I was only concerned we both are here spending time with each other playing video games, smoking cigs, drinking Captain Morgan and Vernor’s ginger ale (which tastes like cream soda) and fishing in a canoe.
Because that’s all that matters at the end of this day. We do our little part no matter how thankless it may seem. And we cherish what’s best in our pleasant company. Our friends and family.
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