Astounding: FL Lt. Gov. Bashes Science and Evolution, Calls for Christian Theocracy

The Republican Party’s anti-science theocratic wing speaks up

WingnutsSeptember 2011 • Views: 36,376

Yesterday before the GOP debate, Ralph Reed’s “Faith and Freedom Coalition” (Ralph Reed? wasn’t he totally discredited in the Jack Abramoff scandal?) held an event at which Florida’s Lt. Governor Jennifer Carroll let loose with an openly theocratic speech calling for ‘Christians To Step Up And Lead This Country’, and bashing science, evolution, and the media.

The freaky fundamentalist wing of the Republican Party has taken over, folks. There’s no longer any doubt.

Youtube Video

You know the Bible says faith is believing in what is not seen, today unfortunately many in the media would like nothing better to ridicule Christians: they promote ‘The Da Vinci Code,’ they place doubt in the public’s mind that Christ was not risen and they condemn the ‘Passion of Christ,’ yet they sensationalize stories that call for the end of prayer in school and removing the name of God from our country’s pledge. Ladies and gentlemen, these are very sad times when we allow the minority to poison the minds of the majority. This is exactly what dictators and socialist rulers did.

…

Man does not have all the answers, some of our political leaders bow down to scientists and let them have the stage to push their evolution, but there’s nothing, nothing a scientist can make, that is exactly like what God creates.

…

Trust Him to give you the strength to fight back against those who want to take God out of our country. Trust Him to give you the wisdom to speak out against injustice and blasphemy of His name. Trust God to guide your path to bring about a righteous government. …

Ladies and gentlemen, Christianity is in a fight and it is one of the greatest trials we have seen in modern times. Without a doubt, America and her people are in grave need of prayer, divine guidance, protection, to have good, solid Christians to step up and lead this country on a proper moral path. I firmly believe that if we magnify God, our problems will be minimized.

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168 comments

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:16:17am

What year is it? Do I have a defective calendar?

Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:16:30am

CREEPING SHARIA!!!

Wait a sec...

shutdown Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:17:10am

The crazy lady makes me sad. I suddenly want a glass of apple juice and a nap.

Kronocide Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:17:33am

They're Just The Fringe

Generic GOP voter in 2007/8/9/10/11

makeitstop Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:17:43am

Onward, Christian Soldiers...

*spit*

BARACK THE VOTE Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:19:06am

Ralph Reed should have been discredited after his first arrest for protesting an abortion clinic. Everything old is new again in wingnuttia, though, so he and other 80's culture warriors are back.

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:21:59am

re: #1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What year is it? Do I have a defective calendar?

One might think. But they have been working on getting here for at least 40 years.

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:24:04am

re: #6 iceweasel

Ralph Reed should have been discredited after his first arrest for protesting an abortion clinic.

Or, at the very least, this.

Everything old is new again in wingnuttia, though, so he and other 80's culture warriors are back.

Yeah, they never went away. They didn't even go underground.

Cinnabar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:25:44am

"...they place doubt in the public’s mind that Christ was not risen."

Lassie... are you sure you wouldn't want to rephrase that a little?

jaunte Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:28:49am

they promote ‘The Da Vinci Code,’

??? Some silly movie (1) is a threat to her faith, and (2) she's blaming 'the media'? Insane.

shutdown Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:29:29am

re: #9 C1nnabar

"...they place doubt in the public’s mind that Christ was not risen."

Lassie... are you sure you wouldn't want to rephrase that a little?

I have absolutely no doubt that Christ did not rise. I also have absolutely no doubt that the Constitution protects my right to so believe, along with her right to believe that Christ rose. This is one of the central rights that set the US apart from other nations from the moment of its founding. Strange that all these "strict constitutionalists" essentially hate America.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:29:59am

re: #10 jaunte

??? Some silly movie (1) is a threat to her faith, and (2) she's blaming 'the media'? Insane.

Even the Catholic Church, which is usually pretty level-headed about such, kind of freaked out on the Da Vinci Code for a while.

Weird to see it come up AGAIN.

elektramourns Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:31:03am

You have to wonder where this lady was when civics and history were being taught. You have to wonder whether there are not some, but rather millions of Americans who were not taught the meaning of the Bill of Rights. She is an example of a failed educational system, I fear.

Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:32:21am

these are very sad times when we allow the minority to poison the minds of the majority

Says the black woman holding elected office in the South.

albusteve Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:33:29am

better get the Supremes fired up, maybe some extra rations...they better be on their toes when the shit hits the fan...they are the last trench in the line

jaunte Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:33:37am

Man does not have all the answers, some of our political leaders bow down to scientists and let them have the stage to push their evolution, but there’s nothing, nothing a scientist can make, that is exactly like what God creates.

No prescriptions for you!

albusteve Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:35:10am

re: #13 elektramourns

You have to wonder where this lady was when civics and history were being taught. You have to wonder whether there are not some, but rather millions of Americans who were not taught the meaning of the Bill of Rights. She is an example of a failed educational system, I fear.

she understands perfectly well the Bill of Rights

zora Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:35:12am

re: #12 SanFranciscoZionist

never got the da vinci code freak-out. we actually had a sermon at my church to help people clarify fact from fiction. as soon as i heard the topic, i got up and went to work in the nursery. i later asked my pastor if it was really necessary to have a sermon about the da vinci code. he said yes because congregants had approached him with questions and he wanted to set some things straight. to which i replied "bless their hearts".

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:35:48am

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Says the black woman holding elected office in the South.

People should learn about Black Conservatism beyond Condoleeza and Clarence. One could easily say the same about Eric Cantor.

Alexzander Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:36:49am

Netanyahu live on fox news.

Bulworth Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:37:36am

Ralph Reed? wasn’t he totally discredited in the Jack Abramoff scandal?

Ha ha. No. They are never discredited.

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:38:43am

re: #13 elektramourns

You have to wonder where this lady was when civics and history were being taught. You have to wonder whether there are not some, but rather millions of Americans who were not taught the meaning of the Bill of Rights. She is an example of a failed educational system, I fear.

I would not be surprised in the least if she was a private school/Christian university grad.

albusteve Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:39:07am

odd that one devoutly believes Jesus arose from death, but it's blasphemous his mistress and kids could move to France, or whatever it was...the book was awful and the movie even worse...I slept through both I think

Bulworth Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:39:36am

they place doubt in the public’s mind

Yes, doubt, and any all questioning must be banished. We must believe what we cannot see. //

makeitstop Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:40:11am

re: #12 SanFranciscoZionist

Even the Catholic Church, which is usually pretty level-headed about such, kind of freaked out on the Da Vinci Code for a while.

Weird to see it come up AGAIN.

Also, when was the last time anyone lobbied hard to get God taken out of the Pledge of Alliegance?

For that matter, when was the first time? these people live in fear of such dirt-stupid stuff.

shutdown Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:40:13am

re: #24 Bulworth

Yes, doubt, and any all questioning must be banished. We must believe what we cannot see. //

That is because you will never see what you do not believe, grasshopper.
/

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:40:35am

re: #18 zora

Mind if I ask what denomination?

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:40:41am

re: #19 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

People should learn about Black Conservatism beyond Condoleeza and Clarence. One could easily say the same about Eric Cantor.

I do say the same about Eric Cantor. And Rick Santorum, for that matter.

Bulworth Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:41:14am

This is really an incredibly ignorant, embarassing rant.

Glad I live in MD.

Bulworth Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:42:54am

yet they sensationalize stories that call for the end of prayer in school

I'm pretty sure the official ban on coerced prayer in school is at least four decades old.

Iwouldprefernotto Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:42:54am

re: #13 elektramourns

You have to wonder where this lady was when civics and history were being taught.

She was in the school parking lot smoking a joint and giving her boyfriend a BJ.

Batman Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:43:31am

So if socialist dictators let the minority poison the minds of the majority, what did the right wing dictators do? Oh yeah, let the majority genocide the minority.

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:46:11am

Ladies and gentlemen, Christianity is in a fight and it is one of the greatest trials we have seen in modern times.

I'm sure those that survived the holocaust would beg to differ.

Tigger2 Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:46:25am

Sorry lady, I believe in God but I don't want him leading my Country.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:46:25am

re: #32 nonsense

So if socialist dictators let the minority poison the minds of the majority, what did the right wing dictators do? Oh yeah, let the majority genocide the minority.

But those right wing dictators were actually lefties. TRY to keep up.

Varek Raith Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:47:19am

Talk about a massive persecution complex.
Sheesh.

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:47:43am

re: #32 nonsense

So if socialist dictators let the minority poison the minds of the majority, what did the right wing dictators do? Oh yeah, let the majority genocide the minority.

That reminds me of what Alouette was saying about that jerk Gilad Atzmon in the downstairs thread. Being a minority siding with a genocidal majority really is a great place to see and be seen.

Opportunists, grifters, self-loathing people of zero integrity, eek, the humanity.

Alexzander Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:47:53am

They have been playing Netayahu's speech uninterupted now on Fox for what feels like maybe 20 minutes.

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:48:48am

re: #36 Varek Raith

Talk about a massive persecution complex.
Sheesh.

Dhimmitude mentality. If we're not allowed to rule uber alles, we are being oppressed! Poor us!!

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:49:31am

re: #37 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

That reminds me of what Alouette was saying about that jerk Gilad Atzmon in the downstairs thread. Being a minority siding with a genocidal majority really is a great place to see and be seen.

Opportunists, grifters, self-loathing people of zero integrity, eek, the humanity.

Mostly, I think, Atzmon is a druggie. The man's teeth have to be seen to be believed.

chunkymonkey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:51:13am

Not the most eloquent speech of all time, but I didn't see an explicit call for a religious government. I also understand the Christian push-back against evolution. Most people, Christian or otherwise, are not scientists and do not understand the science of evolution, nor its implications. While evolution says nothing about the existence of God, you have idiots like Provine saying outright that evolution proves there is no God. A proof that is impossible to demonstrate.

So naturally, you have non-scientific persons being told this by a scientist, and what are they to do? Choose between Provine and their faith? If one is not capable of judging an argument on its merits, and a scientist with his big noggin who is supposed to understand these things says evolution negates the existence of God, a person who believes in God has one of two choices: reject God or reject science.

So scientists like Provine do the world a tremendous disservice when they espouse this sort of irrational baloney.

shutdown Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:53:18am

re: #41 chunkymonkey

Without a doubt, America and her people are in grave need of prayer, divine guidance, protection, to have good, solid Christians to step up and lead this country on a proper moral path. I firmly believe that if we magnify God, our problems will be minimized.

When said by a preacher, these words may be unobjectionable. When said by an elected office-holder, they are a call for theocratic government.

researchok Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:53:44am

CJ was right yesterday when he noted some of these wingnuts sound a whole lot like they have more in common with Ahmadenijad than they do with most Americans.

As someone who is politically center right, this is more than mildly upsetting.

jaunte Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:54:08am

re: #41 chunkymonkey

Without a doubt, America and her people are in grave need of prayer, divine guidance, protection, to have good, solid Christians to step up and lead this country on a proper moral path.

That seems like a pretty straightforward call for Christians to lead the country.

albusteve Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:55:16am

I prefer my improper morals, thank you

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:55:19am

re: #30 Bulworth

I'm pretty sure the official ban on coerced prayer in school is at least four decades old.

Five, actually.

And they have NEVER stopped seething about it, either. Before Roe v Wade, that was the one thing they could complain about re: public schools without actually getting around to their main gripe, which was school desegregation.

Given another 10 years, they finally got really huffy about that, too. Cut to the late 00s, they're scooting around in their Medicare wheelchairs, still feeding their old anti-fed gripes. And even those date back to about 150 years ago.

/end OhCrap's Short History of the Seething, Resentful Xian Right

Ms. Carroll doesn't need reminding that this is who she's thrown in with.

Kronocide Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:55:49am

re: #41 chunkymonkey

Not the most eloquent speech of all time, but I didn't see an explicit call for a religious government.

We (us Christians) need to increase our numbers in government.

What else could it mean?

celticdragon Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:56:22am

re: #6 iceweasel

Ralph Reed should have been discredited after his first arrest for protesting an abortion clinic. Everything old is new again in wingnuttia, though, so he and other 80's culture warriors are back.

I thought his stint lobbying for sex slavers in the Marianas should have sunk him once and for all.

In August 1999, political organizer Ralph Reed's firm sent out a mailer to Alabama conservative Christians asking them to call then-Rep. Bob Riley (R-Ala.) and tell him to vote against legislation that would have made the U.S. commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands subject to federal wage and worker safety laws.

Now those seven-year-old words are coming back to haunt Reed, the former executive director of the Christian Coalition and a candidate for the Republican nomination to be Georgia's lieutenant governor.

"The radical left, the Big Labor Union Bosses, and Bill Clinton want to pass a law preventing Chinese from coming to work on the Marianas Islands," the mailer from Reed's firm said. The Chinese workers, it added, "are exposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ" while on the islands, and many "are converted to the Christian faith and return to China with Bibles in hand."

A year earlier, the Department of the Interior -- which oversees federal policy toward the U.S. territory -- presented a very different picture of life for Chinese workers on the islands. An Interior report found that Chinese women were subject to forced abortions and that women and children were subject to forced prostitution in the local sex-tourism industry.

Chinses women workers were forced to have abortions and continue servicing sex clients at night, and then work in the textile sweatshops during the day. Passports were taken from all of the workers. Since the Marianas are a United States territory, garments coulod legally have a "Made in USA" tag...

laZardo Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:57:09am

Religion and science.

They may coexist, but THEY DO NOT MIX.

Alexzander Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:58:55am

re: #49 laZardo

Religion and science.

They may coexist, but THEY DO NOT MIX.

Unfortunately, even if not not overt religion, our values (both aesthetically and ethically) deeply influence the nature of our science.

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:59:05am

re: #47 BigPapa

We (us Christians) need to increase our numbers in government.

What else could it mean?

This is always so fascinating to me about the whackodoodle Xian Right, especially having come from it myself -- these people are very explicit about their theocratic goals, and have never hidden them. When they're stated outright, it's denied that the utterance was even made.

And we wonder how they take advantage, and gain more and more prominence decade after decade.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:59:33am

re: #49 laZardo

Religion and science.

They may coexist, but THEY DO NOT MIX.

NOMA.

Kragar Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:00:06am

re: #47 BigPapa

We (us Christians) need to increase our numbers in government.

What else could it mean?

No one is born Christian, they have to recruit...

laZardo Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:00:33am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

NOMA.

...what?

shutdown Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:00:34am

re: #44 jaunte

That seems like a pretty straightforward call for Christians to lead the country.

Beyond that, she is calling for the country to be led according to Christian precepts, excluding those who don't believe that "Christ is risen".

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:00:49am

re: #53 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No one is born Christian, they have to recruit...

/

Hah, that needs to be updinged ten thousand times.

jaunte Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:02:46am

re: #51 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

This is always so fascinating to me about the whackodoodle Xian Right, especially having come from it myself -- these people are very explicit about their theocratic goals, and have never hidden them. When they're stated outright, it's denied that the utterance was even made.

"Christians leading the country on a proper moral path" sounds All-American;
"Theocracy" sounds Greek.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:04:07am

re: #54 laZardo

...what?

Stephen Jay Gould refers to science and religion as 'non-overlapping magisteria', which he abbreviates to 'NOMA'.

His book on the subject, "Rocks of Ages" is very good.

chunkymonkey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:05:39am

re: #44 jaunte

That seems like a pretty straightforward call for Christians to lead the country.

And yet the fact remains that Christians "leading the country" does not a theocracy make. JFK was a Christian, IIRC. Was the USA a theocracy when he lead the country? President Obama is a Christian, is the USA a theocracy now while he is leading it?

The speaker did not call for the country to be a theocracy. How would one go about creating a Christian theocracy anyway? There's no call to this in the NT, and where are the guidelines? There's no equivalent in the NT to Sharia, so?

celticdragon Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:05:46am

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

Stephen Jay Gould refers to science and religion as 'non-overlapping magisteria', which he abbreviates to 'NOMA'.

His book on the subject, "Rocks of Ages" is very good.

Wonderful Life was excellent.

Olsonist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:06:33am

re: #19 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Yes, there's a strong SoCon element in the black church. It was probably decisive in passing Prop 8, although the opposition did a piss poor job.

jaunte Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:07:42am

re: #59 chunkymonkey

The issue comes down to her preference for a particular faith, and her interpretation of what proper is, in her phrasing "on a proper moral path."

Sionainn Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:08:24am

re: #13 elektramourns

You have to wonder where this lady was when civics and history were being taught. You have to wonder whether there are not some, but rather millions of Americans who were not taught the meaning of the Bill of Rights. She is an example of a failed educational system, I fear.

She probably got her textbooks from this publisher.

zora Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:08:51am

re: #27 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

baptist.

Sionainn Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:09:52am

re: #41 chunkymonkey

Not the most eloquent speech of all time, but I didn't see an explicit call for a religious government. I also understand the Christian push-back against evolution. Most people, Christian or otherwise, are not scientists and do not understand the science of evolution, nor its implications. While evolution says nothing about the existence of God, you have idiots like Provine saying outright that evolution proves there is no God. A proof that is impossible to demonstrate.

So naturally, you have non-scientific persons being told this by a scientist, and what are they to do? Choose between Provine and their faith? If one is not capable of judging an argument on its merits, and a scientist with his big noggin who is supposed to understand these things says evolution negates the existence of God, a person who believes in God has one of two choices: reject God or reject science.

So scientists like Provine do the world a tremendous disservice when they espouse this sort of irrational baloney.

In other words, the majority of people in this country are idiots?

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:11:35am

re: #59 chunkymonkey

And yet the fact remains that Christians "leading the country" does not a theocracy make.

Rwnj Christian paranoia about ANYONE else in power is legendary...in some cases it dates back to when we did have little theocracies here, in the form of Massachussetts Bay Colony, Virginia, and a host of our-kind-of-chrisianity-only-or-else colonies.

We have a history of Christian crankjobbery here; these people like Carroll are just continuing it.

JFK was a Christian, IIRC. Was the USA a theocracy when he lead the country? President Obama is a Christian, is the USA a theocracy now while he is leading it?

Need better examples, pls. Kennedy almost didn't get elected because he was the wrong kind of Christian, according to these same people's forebears. Barack Obama is considered a Muslim outsider by some of these same times, among others.

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:13:19am

re: #64 zora

baptist.

Ah, Baptists. Big universe, there.

Lidane Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:13:53am

The freaky fundamentalist wing of the Republican Party has taken over, folks. There’s no longer any doubt.

The freaky fundamentalist wing took over decades ago. Just read through the party platforms since at least '92. Thing is, most people were in denial and tried to marginalize it, or they weren't paying attention. It took the election of a black man to the White House for everyone else to finally notice what's been true for the last 20+ years.

Hell, some folks are STILL trying to marginalize it and pretend like the freaks aren't running the asylum. You see it all the time from posters here. Folks saying things like, "Yeah, I know this person is saying all these freaky, batshit wingnut things, but as long as my taxes don't go up I'm okay with it." WRONG ANSWER. It's just more denial.

laZardo Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:13:57am

re: #65 Sionainn

In other words, the majority of people in this country are idiots?

They elected Bush twice, the first time with Nader's help.

celticdragon Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:14:37am

re: #59 chunkymonkey

And yet the fact remains that Christians "leading the country" does not a theocracy make. JFK was a Christian, IIRC. Was the USA a theocracy when he lead the country? President Obama is a Christian, is the USA a theocracy now while he is leading it?

The speaker did not call for the country to be a theocracy. How would one go about creating a Christian theocracy anyway? There's no call to this in the NT, and where are the guidelines? There's no equivalent in the NT to Sharia, so?

The guidelines are in Mosaic Law, which Christian theocrats hold as a template for a "reconstructed" Dominion.

Rude children and gay people get executed. Your daughter got raped? The rapist has to pay her bride price and marry her (I'm sure that is a hit with all the girls...).

You get the idea.

Farfetched? Sure. So was the idea of dending 6 million people to gas chambers. Committed religious zealots can do quite a bit of damage, and this country has an awful lot of them.

Bulworth Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:14:42am

JFK also explicitly stated in a speech in Houston, TX, designed to allay concerns about his Roman Catholicism, that he would not be a Catholic President, but a president who was Catholic.

It was this speech, and defense of the separation of church and state by JFK, that one of the GOP candidates, I believe it was Santorum, denounced recently.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:15:22am

re: #69 laZardo

They elected Bush twice, the first time with Nader's help.

There's more to it than that, though. The religious loonies in our great nation are a voting block, but they can't put someone into office by themselves.

engineer cat Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:15:27am

re: #53 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

No one is born Christian, they have to recruit...

/

i tend to react to christian recruiting efforts by turning the tables and preaching judaism at them. the poor jehovah's witnesses are the nicest and put up with it very well but representatives of some other forms of christianity are not so tolerant and even hostile

nominally, christians make up at least 90% of americans. why are some of them like this carroll person so all fired defensive about it???

Political Atheist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:15:29am

re: #66 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

How many of our Presidents actually are or were Christians?
so far so good, right? No dominionist overthrow of the bill of rights so far. The only Christians to fear are the extremist / dominionists. As I would certainly fear extremists of any religion in office.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:16:52am

re: #70 celticdragon

The guidelines are in Mosaic Law, which Christian theocrats hold as a template for a "reconstructed" Dominion.

Rude children and gay people get executed. Your daughter got raped? The rapist has to pay her bride price and marry her (I'm sure that is a hit with all the girls...).

You get the idea.

Farfetched? Sure. So was the idea of dending 6 million people to gas chambers. Committed religious zealots can do quite a bit of damage, and this country has an awful lot of them.

Well, kind of sort of. They are very selective with the text, and interpret it in a variety of odd ways. I would never assume that my literal reading and their literal reading would have much in common.

Not after watching 'em order the bacon cheesburger, anyway.

laZardo Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:17:03am

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

There's more to it than that, though. The religious loonies in our great nation are a voting block, but they can't put someone into office by themselves.

That's why they rely on general ignorance, most recently of the fact that the legislature makes the laws, the executive suggests and enforces.

As Adlai Stevenson once quipped about getting the thinking man's vote, "That's nice, but I still need a majority to win."

chunkymonkey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:17:04am

re: #65 Sionainn

In other words, the majority of people in this country are idiots?

The majority of people in this country are non-scientists. One can be a non-scientist without being an idiot, so your interpretation is incorrect. I suspect that most folks who "believe in science" don't understand the science in which they believe.

celticdragon Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:17:12am

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

There's more to it than that, though. The religious loonies in our great nation are a voting block, but they can't put someone into office by themselves.

That is where low information voters and our failed media come in to help.

zora Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:17:44am

re: #67 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

big new universe for me. was raised a.m.e.z. and didn't care for the mega a.m.e.z. churches in the dc metro area. so i ended up with the baptists.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:17:45am

re: #71 Bulworth

JFK also explicitly stated in a speech in Houston, TX, designed to allay concerns about his Roman Catholicism, that he would not be a Catholic President, but a president who was Catholic.

It was this speech, and defense of the separation of church and state by JFK, that one of the GOP candidates, I believe it was Santorum, denounced recently.

Yes. Both Santorum and Sarah Palin have criticized that speech. For Santorum, of all people to do it, indicates the touching depth to which he believes that the crazy people he hangs around with think he's a real Christian.

Political Atheist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:17:51am

Free trade in- I'll swap any broad brush for a fine point pen. Free shipping.

jaunte Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:17:54am

re: #73 engineer dog

Jennifer Carroll has seen the rest of the Republican field in a few debates now, and probably thinks with a little more name recognition she could be up on the stage too.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:19:17am

re: #78 celticdragon

That is where low information voters and our failed media come in to help.

Well, yes, and average-Joe Republicans, and fiscal-conservative friendly independents who figure that they GAVE the other guys a chance to do what they wanted.

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:19:51am

re: #61 Olsonist

Yes, there's a strong SoCon element in the black church.

There are a lot of Black churches, all quite varied.

It was probably decisive in passing Prop 8, although the opposition did a piss poor job.

Nah, not a lot of Blacks in the Mormon and Catholic denomintions...especially not compared to traditionally Black ones. Still, we're scapegoated for it. We don't have the numbers (less than 7% of the population) to turn an election like that.

BTW, that myth was debunked by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force as soon as it came out.

Also, here is the county map for the Prop Hate vote. Not a lot of Blacks in those 70%+ counties.

Ojoe Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:22:43am

Since truth is one and transcendent, and science aims at finding truth, how can there ever be a threat to an honest religion from science? They are parallel activities in a lot of ways, and each in its own way fills a human need.

Anyway these fundamentalists are a pain in the ass.

Sionainn Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:22:43am

re: #77 chunkymonkey

The majority of people in this country are non-scientists. One can be a non-scientist without being an idiot, so your interpretation is incorrect. I suspect that most folks who "believe in science" don't understand the science in which they believe.

You made it an either/or thing...either believe the preacher or believe the scientist who doesn't believe in God. There are plenty of other scientists who do believe in God and think that evolution and God are compatible.

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:22:55am

re: #74 Rightwingconspirator

How many of our Presidents actually are or were Christians?
so far so good, right? No dominionist overthrow of the bill of rights so far. The only Christians to fear are the extremist / dominionists. As I would certainly fear extremists of any religion in office.

They have been making inroads to that end for a generation. The result is people like Bachmann, Carroll, Perry, etc.

My motto is, don't fear them, bash back. Otherwise, they will indeed come to gut you like a fish.

engineer cat Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:23:05am

re: #59 chunkymonkey

There's no equivalent in the NT to Sharia, so?

if all christians restricted themselves to the things that jesus called on his followers to do in the new testament, christianity would be a very different thing than it is today

BongCrodny Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:24:28am

Crackpot governor and a crackpot lieutenant governor.

Lucky, lucky Floridians

Ojoe Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:24:48am

re: #88 engineer dog

Like, they should go for the essential of it, "love your neighbor."

engineer cat Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:25:06am

re: #77 chunkymonkey

The majority of people in this country are non-scientists. One can be a non-scientist without being an idiot, so your interpretation is incorrect. I suspect that most folks who "believe in science" don't understand the science in which they believe.

if you board an airplane, you "believe in science"

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:25:10am

re: #73 engineer dog

When the Mormon kids knock on my door (usually once per millennium) I say "Not interested. Wanna jabber about something else? Where are you from? How do you like my neighborhood?"

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:25:20am

re: #79 zora

big new universe for me. was raised a.m.e.z. and didn't care for the mega a.m.e.z. churches in the dc metro area. so i ended up with the baptists.

Girl, I didn't know u was a sista.

AME kid myself, here.

albusteve Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:25:34am

re: #90 Ojoe

Like, they should go for the essential of it, "love your neighbor."

better yet...mind your own damned business

celticdragon Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:25:45am

re: #91 engineer dog

if you board an airplane, you "believe in science"

Wings...

You can't explain that!

Political Atheist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:25:52am

re: #87 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Inroads, I suppose you are right about that. That and no small amount of net savvy. They sure know how to make noise. Mostly among their own though.

How many very religious men have tried and failed to gain the office? Pat Robertson, Jesse Jackson just to name a couple. I agree we do not want Rick Perry or MB to win. I agree there entirely.

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:26:35am

I've been pouring through the neutrino paper from Archiv-x. It is an honest paper. They had their stuff right, as far as they could tell, before they released it. This is not hack work. That said, there are a lot of pieces to this measurement that invite (and in this case demand) very great scrutiny.

The short form of it is:

Neutrinos are produced by particle collisions at CERN in a way that points them in the direction of the OPERA facility some 730 km away. Those particle collisions produce more than just neutrinos. At the same instant the neutrinos are created, other are particles created with them. Ironically, this would not happen if relativity were not true. They smack into detectors at the CERN facility. This gives a time of birth for the neutrinos. Using GPS and atomic clocks time is synchronized with the neutrino detectors at OPERA. From looking at the clocks, there is a measurement of flight time.

A very careful program was undertaken to get as accurate as possible a measure of the detectors' distance from CERN at OPERA.

If you have the distance and the time of flight, you divide and get the speed.

The neutrinos fly through the Earth's crust. Since only interact through the weak force, they rarely interact at all. Vast numbers of them from the sun and astronomical sources are going through you right now. Since they don't interact, they pass right through.

There are a number of places to look more closely.

1. Are these really the neutrinos they are looking for? A lot of neutrinos come out of CERN. This experiment demands knowing very well that a given neutrino born at CERN was the same one that came down range to OPERA and that OPERA was not looking at a neutrino born earlier. That is an issue to be explored by going into the bowels of OPERA's detectors, computer code and electronics.

2. Are there any systematic delays in the electronics that the researchers missed? If the time measurement is off by even a little this result is off. The people at OPERA certainly looked very hard to find such errors and report a systematic errors that are small compared to their findings. It is perfectly possible for very good scientists to do very good work and still miss something honestly.

I personally think that the an error will be found in case one or case two.

3. How good really is the distance measurement? Again this is something that will have to be scrutinized.

4. Perversely, and I think that it is likely the GPS and distance measurement people accounted for it, but perversely, are their time measurements sufficiently accurately taking General Relativistic effects from the Earth's gravitational fields into account? GR predicts that gravitational fields will effect time measurements. For a mass the size of the Earth the effect is very small, but these are very precision measurements. It would be charming if it was Einstein himself reaching from the grave to kill this.

There is going to be a very careful look of every aspect of the experiment by the larger particle experiment community.

Back in the day I worked particle theory. I was never a particle experiment guy, and there is an awful lot to know (as in an experimental particle Ph.D's worth) before one can meaningfully comment in more detail about how to make sure the particle experiment guys did this right. I don't know nearly enough about the intricate details of their detectors, their code or their methodology to really comment on what might have gone wrong in any more detail than in the broad strokes I have already written.

I am very confident from the overwhelming strength of relativity working everywhere else (and being part of how we know neutrinos are produced in the first place) that there will be a systematic error found in the experiment. Relativity is so strongly verified by so many other things that I believe the proper question is not "did relativity go wrong", but rather, how can we make even better neutrino experiment?

Ojoe Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:27:14am

re: #94 albusteve

You can extrapolate the 2nd from the 1st.

chunkymonkey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:27:22am

re: #88 engineer dog

if all christians restricted themselves to the things that jesus called on his followers to do in the new testament, christianity would be a very different thing than it is today

That is for certain. Anything can be corrupted by people, which is one of the more unfortunate truths of our world.

100

Ojoe Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:27:49am

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

I have always hated neutrinos.

101

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:28:03am

re: #85 Ojoe

Since truth is one and transcendent, and science aims at finding truth, how can there ever be a threat to an honest religion from science?

Asked and answered, all in one sentence.

102

chunkymonkey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:29:44am

re:

103

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:30:55am

re: #85 Ojoe

Since truth is one and transcendent, and science aims at finding truth, how can there ever be a threat to an honest religion from science? They are parallel activities in a lot of ways, and each in its own way fills a human need.

Anyway these fundamentalists are a pain in the ass.

Excuse me, didn't you recently say you couldn't vote for Romney because he is a Mormon?

104

Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:31:16am

re: #65 Sionainn

In other words, the majority of people in this country are idiots?

I like how one Provine >> thousands of preachers. So I guess he believes in the power of Science.

105

Ojoe Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:31:23am

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

"These are not the neutrinos you're looking for."

106

chunkymonkey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:31:52am

re: #91 engineer dog

if you board an airplane, you "believe in science"

Unless it's a Russian airplane, in which case you're either drunk or believe in God. Few people who board an airplane understand the science of flight. This doesn't make them idiots, and there are few people in the world who will tell you that there is no God because airplanes can fly.

107

lawhawk Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:32:26am

re: #97 LudwigVanQuixote

Fermilab was going to try and run a duplicate experiment to see if they could replicate the results, but I'm with you in thinking that one of the parameters of the experiment were off - and it wouldn't take much to get to the wrong conclusion.

And from what I recall, there was at least one other experiment in the past that claimed particles went faster than light, but which upon closer examination didn't turn out to be the case.

But even if particles can't go faster than light, scientists have been able to make light slow down (and have for more than a decade).

108

Ojoe Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:32:36am

re: #103 000G

Yes I said that. It is my own private thing, but I don't trust some groups. Very un pc. Sorry.

109

chunkymonkey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:33:12am

re: #104 oaktree

I like how one Provine >> thousands of preachers. So I guess he believes in the power of Science.

Preachers are typically not scientists.

110

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:33:20am

re: #96 Rightwingconspirator

Inroads, I suppose you are right about that. That and no small amount of net savvy. They sure know how to make noise. Mostly among their own though.

I don't think so. Brief rundown:

50s: Beginnings of televangelism
60s: Anti prayer in school agitation
70s: Roe v Wade, rise of televangelism, Robertson, Crouches, TBN, PTL/Jim-Tammy, Crystal Cathedral, etc.
70s: Moral Majority, American Family Association, Eagle Forum
80s: Traditional Values Coalition, Christian Coalition, Concerned Women for America, Robertson for President,
80s: Rise of neo-Pentecostalism/Charismaticism (of which most of the above are from), coalitioning with Catholics and Mormons over social isssues
90s: Continuation of 80s groups minus Moral Majority
00s - present: Well, here we are.

How many very religious men have tried and failed to gain the office? Pat Robertson, Jesse Jackson just to name a couple. I agree we do not want Rick Perry or MB to win. I agree there entirely.

MB doesn't have a chance of even getting the nomination. Perry does, and just might. But he might not. If the GOP intends to make Obama a one-termer, Perry is a bad choice for them, I think, unless they have a normal person waiting in the wings for a running mate. They'll need it.

111

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:33:29am

re: #91 engineer dog

if you board an airplane, you "believe in science"

If you get on a bike, however, you are on your own:

So, what happens when you ask scientists exactly what makes a bicycle stable? Or what keeps it going? Or how people ride them? Well, odds are they’ll either nervously tell you that they have cookies in the oven and run out on you, or if they’re honest, they’ll give you a pretty big shrug. In fact, top bike researchers admit that, even though some people have come up with equations on how to ride a bike or how they think bikes work, those equations are pretty much fancy icing on top of a cake of cluelessness. One Cornell researcher even says that absolutely nobody has ever come to an intuitive understanding of what makes a bicycle do its thing.

[Link: www.cracked.com...]

112

lawhawk Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:33:35am

re: #100 Ojoe

Who do you think you are? A boson's mate on the SS Higgs? /

113

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:34:18am

re: #109 chunkymonkey

Preachers are typically not scientists.

My father, preacher, was a science and math teacher.

114

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:34:39am

re: #108 Ojoe

Yes I said that. It is my own private thing, but I don't trust some groups. Very un pc. Sorry.

You said it in this public forum, dude. Don't know why you say "sorry", though. What are you sorry about?

115

Ojoe Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:35:06am

re: #111 000G

I think a bike stays up because of its straight ahead momentum when it is going. One of Newton's laws.

116

Ojoe Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:35:51am

re: #114 000G

... in case anyone is offended ...

for them not to take it personally.

117

Ojoe Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:36:37am

re: #112 lawhawk

That would be a heavy responsibility.

118

garhighway Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:37:44am

re: #80 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes. Both Santorum and Sarah Palin have criticized that speech. For Santorum, of all people to do it, indicates the touching depth to which he believes that the crazy people he hangs around with think he's a real Christian.

When you use "Santorum" and "touching" in the same sentence I laugh.

119

engineer cat Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:39:13am

re: #106 chunkymonkey

Unless it's a Russian airplane, in which case you're either drunk or believe in God. Few people who board an airplane understand the science of flight. This doesn't make them idiots, and there are few people in the world who will tell you that there is no God because airplanes can fly.

you are still making a division here between "people who believe in G-d" and "people who "believe" in science". two things:

"believing" in science as i mean to use the term means believing that people make real measurements based on empirical knowledge, make logical and reasonable deductions from those measurements, and design and build things based on the foregoing

that's science and engineering

but also, many many religious people find absolutely no conflict between science and religion - see teilhard de chardin , who the nuns who ran the high school i went to always liked to bring up - and in fact think that the wonderful things that science has revealed are testament to the glory and greatness of G-d

120

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:40:36am

re: #116 Ojoe

... in case anyone is offended ...

for them not to take it personally.

Not offended, I just think it an odd position. So why do you not trust Mormons? Did Mormons steal your bike once, or what?

121

Olsonist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:41:08am

re: #84 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

There are a lot of Black churches, all quite varied.

Of course.

BTW, that myth was debunked by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force as soon as it came out.

Also, here is the county map for the Prop Hate vote. Not a lot of Blacks in those 70%+ counties.

That map looks like any/every election in CA.

From Wikipedia:

Edison/Mitofsky conducted an exit poll on behalf of the National Election Pool which is the only source of data on voter demographics in California in the 2008 election.[145][146] The statistical trends from the exit poll of 2,240 voters suggested that an array of voters came out both in opposition to and in support of Proposition 8, with no single demographic group making up most of either the Yes or No vote. Support for Proposition 8 was strong amongst African American voters, interviewed in the exit poll with 70% in favor, more than any other racial group.[147] The high-profile candidacy of Barack Obama is credited with increasing black turnout on the bill which has been seen as the crucial difference in its passing.[148][149] Subsequent analysis showed black support at only 58%, still above the 52% support received by all voters.[150][151] Those who described themselves as religious were the strongest supporters of prop 8.[152] Young voters were more likely to have voted against the ballot measure than older voters, while Republicans were more likely to have supported the measure than were Democrats.[153]

Also, see this report

Second, we examine the African American vote for Proposition 8. We provide evidence showing that while African Americans supported Proposition 8 more than voters as a whole, they did not do so in the overwhelming numbers suggested by one exit poll. We show that black support for Proposition 8 can largely be explained by African Americans' higher levels of religiosity a characters strongly associated with opposition to same-sex marriage.

122

Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:42:12am

re: #107 lawhawk

Fermilab was going to try and run a duplicate experiment to see if they could replicate the results, but I'm with you in thinking that one of the parameters of the experiment were off - and it wouldn't take much to get to the wrong conclusion.

And from what I recall, there was at least one other experiment in the past that claimed particles went faster than light, but which upon closer examination didn't turn out to be the case.

But even if particles can't go faster than light, scientists have been able to make light slow down (and have for more than a decade).

They put up a "Maintain Speed In Tunnel" sign?

;)

123

laZardo Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:43:20am

re: #119 engineer dog

but also, many many religious people find absolutely no conflict between science and religion - see teilhard de chardin , who the nuns who ran the high school i went to always liked to bring up - and in fact think that the wonderful things that science has revealed are testament to the glory and greatness of G-d

Two words: Humani Generis.

The Catholic Church plays with verbal gymnastics in an almost Orwellian sense, particularly given their recent "acceptance" of evolution.

124

garhighway Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:43:20am

re: #74 Rightwingconspirator

How many of our Presidents actually are or were Christians?
so far so good, right?

But how many of those rejected the concept of separation of church and state? Isn't that the problem? The new breed of R has been busy trying to write the establishment and free exercise clauses out of the First Amendment. That is, I think, a relatively new thing.

125

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:44:39am

re: #107 lawhawk

Fermilab was going to try and run a duplicate experiment to see if they could replicate the results, but I'm with you in thinking that one of the parameters of the experiment were off - and it wouldn't take much to get to the wrong conclusion.

You are thinking of the MINOS experiment which also had some tantalizing data to this effect. However the MINOS people did not have sufficient confidence in their distance measurements to publish as the effect was below their error.

And from what I recall, there was at least one other experiment in the past that claimed particles went faster than light, but which upon closer examination didn't turn out to be the case.

That would not surprise me, but I am not aware of anything that made a stir like this.

But even if particles can't go faster than light, scientists have been able to make light slow down (and have for more than a decade).

This is one of those places where I wish the MSM would bother to add as much as three salient sentences to their abysmal reporting that would make everything ore clear.

When we talk about the speed of light - we mean the speed of light in vacuum.

When light goes through any dialectic (like glass, or water, or anything material) it slows down.

Let me repeat that light slows down when it passes through a medium. The speed of light in glass is slower than through air, and through air is slower than through vacuum. This is why light refracts. This is Fermat's principle.

This is why rainbows spread colours out (there is a frequency dependence also). This is why your straw looks bent in a glass of water.

We've known about this for a lot longer than ten years.

What made the recent discovery news worthy was how much light was slowed using exotic materials. But that would not sound nearly as catchy to a science editor trying to make print.

126

Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:48:56am

re: #125 LudwigVanQuixote

What made the recent discovery news worthy was how much light was slowed using exotic materials. But that would not sound nearly as catchy to a science editor trying to make print.

I think the media has given up on trying to communicate nuance. To much interest the sound bite and quick catch. I think that's why I go to magazines, web-sites, and other presentation locations that take the time to supply some depth to their coverage and at least try to not generalize everything.

127

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:51:58am

re: #121 Olsonist

Of course.

That map looks like any/every election in CA.

No, it doesn't. A good comparison is Prop 22, which is what gave us Prop 8 in the first place. That won, basically 60/40. Not even a decade later, Prop 8 really just barely passed, 52-48.

Prop 22 map. Looks much different than the Prop 8 one.

From Wikipedia:

Also, see this report

I've read that report, including that 2200-person CNN exit poll everyone points to to yell THE BLACKS! THEY TOOK AWAY THE GAY MARRIAGE WHEN THEY ALL VOTED FOR OBAMA!! Damn them!

If the exit poll was done in Riverside or Moreno Valley than yeah, all 7 Black people there probably voted for Prop 8, but who really knows where it was done.

Those gays who already had anti-Black issues took that and ran with it, without question. It's reached the level of a sacrament, with some of them. I don't buy it, at all.

128

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:00:00pm

re: #118 garhighway

When you use "Santorum" and "touching" in the same sentence I laugh.

Are there words that can be combined with 'Santorum' that DON'T make people laugh these days?

God, remind me never to get Dan Savage mad at me.

129

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:01:48pm

re: #126 oaktree

I think the media has given up on trying to communicate nuance. To much interest the sound bite and quick catch. I think that's why I go to magazines, web-sites, and other presentation locations that take the time to supply some depth to their coverage and at least try to not generalize everything.

Even then, unless you are careful about the source, science reporting is usually oversimplified to the point it is wrong.

130

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:02:46pm

re: #124 garhighway

But how many of those rejected the concept of separation of church and state? Isn't that the problem? The new breed of R has been busy trying to write the establishment and free exercise clauses out of the First Amendment. That is, I think, a relatively new thing.

The other interesting thing is, most Christian denominations are NOT making those kinds of arguments, even traditionally conservative ones like LCMS Lutherans, Catholics (I believe crazy O'Do and Santorum are exceptions), Church of God, Church of Christ; the LDS of all people know better and it doesn't surprise me their loudest sqawker, Beck, is a convert with something to prove.

But these arguments are coming out of one faction of Christianity, as somewhat detailed in #110: neo-Pentecostalism and Charismatics. (And to some extent, the Southern Baptist Convention can go up to that edge, but I think they have some institutional controls not to take things over it.)

It would surprise me greatly, if Ms. Carroll is not from this faction.

131

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:03:45pm

re: #118 garhighway

When you use "Santorum" and "touching" in the same sentence I laugh.

I have this vision--it's the future, and two girls are talking in a cafe... "So, like, I've been researching my family tree! It turns out that my mom's family name wasn't always Santori. It used to be Santorum, but apparently, you'll love this, there was this politician, like back when my great-great-grandfather was getting out of college..."

132

garhighway Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:05:12pm

re: #131 SanFranciscoZionist

I have this vision--it's the future, and two girls are talking in a cafe... "So, like, I've been researching my family tree! It turns out that my mom's family name wasn't always Santori. It used to be Santorum, but apparently, you'll love this, there was this politician, like back when my great-great-grandfather was getting out of college..."

And down the street is a billboard with the slogan:

Handi-wipes: Just the thing for that nasty Santorum problem!"

133

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:05:47pm

re: #130 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

And to some extent, the Southern Baptist Convention can go up to that edge, but I think they have some institutional controls not to take things over it.

Are you familiar with [Link: www.janetmefferdpremium.com...] ?

134

Mad Prophet Ludwig Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:07:17pm

re: #112 lawhawk

Who do you think you are? A boson's mate on the SS Higgs? /

Gotta love puns from the substandard model...

135

Decatur Deb Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:07:30pm

re: #109 chunkymonkey

Preachers are typically not scientists.

I need to validate it, but read recently that about 100-200 craters on the moon are named for scientists identified as Jesuits alone.

136

leftynyc Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:07:58pm

re: #34 Tigger2

Sorry lady, I believe in God but I don't want him leading my Country.

Neither did the founders.

137

Political Atheist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:08:49pm

re: #124 garhighway

And that is exactly why I said I fear the extremists / dominionists only. Not even reasonably devout people that go to church every week.

138

Decatur Deb Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:10:00pm

re: #135 Decatur Deb

I need to validate it, but read recently that about 100-200 craters on the moon are named for scientists identified as Jesuits alone.

Quick look says I was wrong on that--seems only 35 lunar craters are named for Jesuits. (Five others have been renamed.)

[Link: faculty.fairfield.edu...]

More to come.

139

engineer cat Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:10:39pm

Santorum

latin, iirc "of the holy ones"

the only thing i like about him is that his name is in the genitive plural

140

Decatur Deb Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:13:17pm

re: #138 Decatur Deb

Quick look says I was wrong on that--seems only 35 lunar craters are named for Jesuits. (Five others have been renamed.)

[Link: faculty.fairfield.edu...]

More to come.

More:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

141

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:15:36pm

re: #133 000G

Are you familiar with [Link: www.janetmefferdpremium.com...] ?

Haven't heard of her. Show looks like the work of a dumb tool. There are lots of those. lol

Is she SBC?

142

Eventual Carrion Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:17:08pm

re: #59 chunkymonkey

And yet the fact remains that Christians "leading the country" does not a theocracy make. JFK was a Christian, IIRC. Was the USA a theocracy when he lead the country? President Obama is a Christian, is the USA a theocracy now while he is leading it?

The speaker did not call for the country to be a theocracy. How would one go about creating a Christian theocracy anyway? There's no call to this in the NT, and where are the guidelines? There's no equivalent in the NT to Sharia, so?

But we can't have a Muslim because they will turn us into a Muslim country?

143

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:19:01pm

re: #136 leftynyc

Neither did the founders.

Yeah, because the Christian Crankodoodles got kicked out of Europe, then came here and effed it up.

144

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:22:45pm

re: #141 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Haven't heard of her. Show looks like the work of a dumb tool. There are lots of those. lol

Is she SBC?

I don't know for sure, but she sure has people from the SBC on a lot. As well as many other RWNJs, high- and low-profile alike, as you will see when you skim through the guest lists. One favorite topic of hers is bashing Mormons as being basically non-Christians and heathens.

I think this is her:

Youtube Video

145

dragonfire1981 Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:22:52pm

re: #136 leftynyc

Neither did the founders.

Ding ding ding!

Attention right wing: America was NEVER intended to be a Christian nation!

146

Olsonist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:38:16pm

re: #127 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

No, it doesn't. A good comparison is Prop 22, which is what gave us Prop 8 in the first place. That won, basically 60/40. Not even a decade later, Prop 8 really just barely passed, 52-48.

Prop 8 barely passed with 52% votes with Obama at the top of the ticket with 61% of the vote. Bringing up Prop 22 (and the Briggs initiative before that) argues against the passage of Prop 8. But it passed. Evidence points at SoCon blacks and Latinos.

But on the face of it, a lot of people voted both for Obama and for Prop 8. Period. You can't debunk that.

147

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:39:00pm

re: #144 000G

Oh cripes, how many of those exact same sermons have I had to endure e_e

"Revival and renewal", "new reformation", blah blah. Interesting, though that she's credal (Nicene Creed, she quoted it.) She sounds like a run-of-the-mill, generic Evangelical, to me.

148

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:41:21pm

re: #147 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Oh cripes, how many of those exact same sermons have I had to endure e_e

"Revival and renewal", "new reformation", blah blah. Interesting, though that she's credal (Nicene Creed, she quoted it.) She sounds like a run-of-the-mill, generic Evangelical, to me.

Yeah, I think you are right. She definitively knows her stuff. Loves to get technical on her show.

149

Idle Drifter Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:45:44pm

Late two cents, this is a question for the stalkers, TP, et al:

Which Christians should rule this country?

150

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:47:48pm

re: #146 Olsonist

Evidence points at SoCon blacks and Latinos.

No, evidence points to traditionally white denominations like the LDS which bankrolled the measure, and white/Latino denominations like Catholics. But they are not chided for their soconnism, somehow. Not a lot of Blacks in those denominations, either.

Bringing up Prop 22 (and the Briggs initiative before that) argues against the passage of Prop 8.

I don't understand what that sentence means, but I brought up the Prop 22 map because it disproves your claim that the Prop 8 map "looks like any/every election in CA." It doesn't. Not other maps in the 2008 election, and not in the last election we had about same sex marriage.

But on the face of it, a lot of people voted both for Obama and for Prop 8. Period. You can't debunk that.

Lol nobody is debunking anything; that's already been done. But who says "a lot of people voted for both Obama and for Prop 8, period?"

A lot of people voted for both McCain and Prop 8, and a lot less people in general voted against same sex marriage. You are scapegoating the wrong group of people.

151

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:50:30pm

re: #149 Idle Drifter

Late two cents, this is a question for the stalkers, TP, et al:

Which Christians should rule this country?

Lol good luck getting a straight answer out of any of them. Ask 20 tea partiers that question, get 50 answers.

152

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:57:40pm

re: #150 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

... I brought up the Prop 22 map because it disproves your claim that the Prop 8 map "looks like any/every election in CA." It doesn't. Not other maps in the 2008 election, and not in the last election we had about same sex marriage.

Those maps, again:

Prop 8

Prop 22

Rather different.

153

Political Atheist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 1:09:27pm

re: #110 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I don't think so. Brief rundown:

50s: Beginnings of televangelism
60s: Anti prayer in school agitation
70s: Roe v Wade, rise of televangelism, Robertson, Crouches, TBN, PTL/Jim-Tammy, Crystal Cathedral, etc.
70s: Moral Majority, American Family Association, Eagle Forum
80s: Traditional Values Coalition, Christian Coalition, Concerned Women for America, Robertson for President,
80s: Rise of neo-Pentecostalism/Charismaticism (of which most of the above are from), coalitioning with Catholics and Mormons over social isssues
90s: Continuation of 80s groups minus Moral Majority
00s - present: Well, here we are.

MB doesn't have a chance of even getting the nomination. Perry does, and just might. But he might not. If the GOP intends to make Obama a one-termer, Perry is a bad choice for them, I think, unless they have a normal person waiting in the wings for a running mate. They'll need it.

Evangelism takes on each technology as available. I'm not offended by it, I just turn the channel. 1st amendment activity.

I do not get your point about the Crystal Cathedral. Or Jim & Tammy, it's just TV preaching. Not my cup of tea but again that is protected activity. Coalitioning with like minded folks is also a rather ordinary activity.

Do yo object to the very existence of evangelical Christianity? Or just it's popularity?

154

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 1:24:10pm

re: #153 Rightwingconspirator

Evangelism takes on each technology as available. I'm not offended by it, I just turn the channel. 1st amendment activity.

I do not get your point about the Crystal Cathedral. Or Jim & Tammy, it's just TV preaching. Not my cup of tea but again that is protected activity. Coalitioning with like minded folks is also a rather ordinary activity.

Do yo object to the very existence of evangelical Christianity? Or just it's popularity?

I am a direct product of evangelical Christianity, in many different ways.

I don't object to the existence of any kind of Christianity - where do you get that from? You are likely aware, though, that many of the people in question do object to my existence -- I learn of it every day in the posts on LGF about what they say about us / .

I do happen to know why it's popular, and it's mostly because of the Evangelical -- specifically Pentecostal -- embrace of technology, which gave us televangelism as we know it. Dr. Robert Schuller (Crystal Cathedral) is actually an anomaly in the televangelist/megachurch because he is Reformed Church in America, not what we normally think of as Evangelical -- he's one of the few that is not Pentecostal/Charismatic. Anyway unlike their Fundamentlaist peers, they have never feared it and always used it.

Aimee Semple MacPherson is one of the best examples. Without her work in radio and entertainment, we wouldn't have today's televangelists.

So these "inroads" we are talking about dates back much further than their use of Web 2.0 and the like. It's part of a long tradition of theirs. You may have changed the channel when they came on, but many, many, many others do not, ask me how I know.

155

chunkymonkey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 2:27:46pm

re: #135 Decatur Deb

I need to validate it, but read recently that about 100-200 craters on the moon are named for scientists identified as Jesuits alone.

While it may be true that many preachers are scientists, this fact does not negate the barely remarkable fact that most preachers are not scientists. I'm surprised anyone commented on this, honestly.

156

chunkymonkey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 2:35:29pm

re: #70 celticdragon

The guidelines are in Mosaic Law, which Christian theocrats hold as a template for a "reconstructed" Dominion.

Rude children and gay people get executed. Your daughter got raped? The rapist has to pay her bride price and marry her (I'm sure that is a hit with all the girls...).

You get the idea.

Farfetched? Sure. So was the idea of sending 6 million people to gas chambers. Committed religious zealots can do quite a bit of damage, and this country has an awful lot of them.

So you're saying that Christian theocrats want to run the country according to OT Jewish law? They might find they have a hard time giving up the pork and shrimp, but hey, who am I to judge.

As to religious zealots, one need not be religious to be a zealot. Or at least, one need not believe in God to be a zealot, and there's a lot of zealots in the world. This is more lamentable than remarkable.

157

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 2:46:53pm

re: #156 chunkymonkey

So you're saying that Christian theocrats want to run the country according to OT Jewish law? They might find they have a hard time giving up the pork and shrimp, but hey, who am I to judge.

Some Christian theocrats do, yes. They're quite explicit about it.

Look up these as search terms:

Gary North

Rouassas Rushdoony (Gary's father in law, deceased)

Cornelius van Til

Gary DeMar

Francis Schaeffer

Christian Reconstructionism - an offshoot of Calvinism

When you're done with that, we can talk about their connections with mainstream Evangelicalism.

Also related: Kingdom Now theology, which is out of Pentecostalism.

As to religious zealots, one need not be religious to be a zealot. Or at least, one need not believe in God to be a zealot, and there's a lot of zealots in the world.

Yes but the topic is specifically-religious, well, Christian, zealots. There is no shortage of them in America.

158

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 2:48:33pm

re: #155 chunkymonkey

While it may be true that many preachers are scientists, this fact does not negate the barely remarkable fact that most preachers are not scientists. I'm surprised anyone commented on this, honestly.

But you're the one who brought it up, using and extreme example. People are only saying it's a false dichotomy, that's all.

159

Spocomptonite Fri, Sep 23, 2011 3:10:08pm

Ralph Reed... lol

Last year I was staying at a more fundamentalist member of my family and, bored, I looked at their book collection. I found Dark Horse by Ralph Reed.

One of the most ridiculous books I have ever read. The terrorists are laughable caricatures who, for absolutely no discernible reason, even when we read from their point of view, want to kill the VP and only the VP. Using missiles. He also projects the real-life Republican campaign of 2008 into the fictional democratic one in his book.

And finally, the idea that a Christian Media conglomerate could single-handedly campaign any candidate into the presidency is just blatant wishful thinking on the part of Reed. Nothing in his fantasy comes close to real life.

I'm sure there's more, but I don't remember/tried to block it out of my mind. I think they declared war on Iran, too. wtf?

160

Political Atheist Fri, Sep 23, 2011 3:23:04pm

re: #154 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Hm. Dead thread. Maybe we will take this up another time.

161

chunkymonkey Fri, Sep 23, 2011 3:39:21pm

re: #158 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

But you're the one who brought it up, using and extreme example. People are only saying it's a false dichotomy, that's all.

I did? I just wrote that most preachers aren't scientists. Seems like a fairly non controversial statement. re: #157 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Some Christian theocrats do, yes. They're quite explicit about it.

Look up these as search terms:

Gary North

Rouassas Rushdoony (Gary's father in law, deceased)

Cornelius van Til

Gary DeMar

Francis Schaeffer

Christian Reconstructionism - an offshoot of Calvinism

When you're done with that, we can talk about their connections with mainstream Evangelicalism.

Also related: Kingdom Now theology, which is out of Pentecostalism.

Yes but the topic is specifically-religious, well, Christian, zealots. There is no shortage of them in America.

Honestly, why would I bother looking that stuff up? Given the limited number of hours in a day seems like there are a lot of better ways to spend them.

162

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 3:54:25pm

re: #161

re: #157 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Honestly, why would I bother looking that stuff up? Given the limited number of hours in a day seems like there are a lot of better ways to spend them.

Look it upto or don't, but you asked about theocratic Christians intent on imposing "Old Testament law", and your answers start with Christian Reconstructionism. What's wrong with a little self education?

163

OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Fri, Sep 23, 2011 3:56:51pm

Upto = up

Sorry, edit mode doesn't work on my dumbphone.

re: #162 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

re: #157 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Honestly, why would I bother looking that stuff up? Given the limited number of hours in a day seems like there are a lot of better ways to spend them.

Look it upto or don't, but you asked about theocratic Christians intent on imposing "Old Testament law", and your answers start with Christian Reconstructionism. What's wrong with a little self education?

164

SidewaysQuark Fri, Sep 23, 2011 5:48:45pm

re: #85 Ojoe

Since truth is one and transcendent, and science aims at finding truth, how can there ever be a threat to an honest religion from science?

Realizing that "honest religion" is an oxymoron answers your question.

165

wheat-dogghazi Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:12:22pm

I'm surprised no one posted Carroll's bio by now. Here's what Wikipedia has about her:

Carroll was born in Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago. She moved to the United States at the age of eight. Two years after graduating from Uniondale High School in New York state, she enlisted in the U.S. Navy in 1979. After serving as an Aviation Machinist Mate (Jet Mechanic), she was selected for Enlisted Commissioning Program, becoming an Aviation Maintenance Officer in 1985. She retired from the Navy in 1999 as a Lieutenant Commander. In 1981, she received an Associate of Arts degree from Leeward Community College. She followed this in 1985 with a Bachelor of Arts in political science from the University of New Mexico. She moved to Florida in 1986. She received a Master of Business Administration degree from unaccredited online Kensington University in 1995,[3] and then earned another Master of Business Administration degree online from St. Leo University in 2008.[4]

BTW, Uniondale is on Long Island, my home turf ages ago. Leeward CC is in Honolulu. St. Leo is an RCC-affiliated university outside Tampa.

Her son Nolan Jr. plays for the Dolphins. I haven't found anything on her church affiliation, though.

166

wheat-dogghazi Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:16:31pm

Link: More details about her.

The Christian Coalition likes her. Gave her awards in '05 and '08.

167

Mich-again Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:30:21pm