Pat Robertson: Homosexuality = Demonic Possession
According to Pat Robertson, homosexuality is “related to demonic possession.” Yes, this really is how the religious right thinks.
Youtube Video
According to Pat Robertson, homosexuality is “related to demonic possession.” Yes, this really is how the religious right thinks.
Youtube Video1 | prairiefire Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:42:37am |
Yes, and it is my understanding that they also contribute things such as rage issues and obesity to different sorts of demons as well.
3 | darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:43:45am |
4 | erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:44:01am |
Thoughtful and nuanced as usual, Pat.
Ass-backwards medieval dipshit.
5 | Mocking Jay Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:44:10am |
6 | Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:44:31am |
Is being an ignorant bigot caused by Demonic Possession?
7 | gummitch Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:46:13am |
Who? Ah, him. Is Pat trying to foam his way back to relevance?
8 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:47:08am |
10 | Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:47:24am |
re: #7 gummitch
Who? Ah, him. Is Pat trying to foam his way back to relevance?
I think the 700 club is just doing a recurring series showing the effects of senility over time.
11 | Daniel Ballard Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:47:28am |
I'm straight and I don't feel dispossessed at all.
12 | darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:47:57am |
14 | Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:52:37am |
Demonic possession! Well, we all know the scientifically proven method for curing that: exorcisms!
15 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:52:44am |
17 | Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:53:35am |
Pat would feel right at home with the commenters over at Fox Nation
Transsexual Booted from Miss Universe
Archie Bunker 1 hour ago
If 'O'bozo had a Son he would look a lot like Jenna.
12 people liked this.
---
hawk1052 1 hour agoLeave it to a liberal to skrew up everything, Now a meaningless beauty contest is a political forum.
6 people liked this.
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nomomoney4u 2 hours agoThey became suspicious of her when her chest hair got long
3 people liked this.
ninerfantiminwa 2 hours ago in reply to nomomoney4uYeah, but Michelle Obama braids hers... sorry.. couldn't resist
3 people liked this
What charming people.
18 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:53:39am |
re: #15 Obdicut
Doubtful. "Why are you talking about him, talk about somebody else".
19 | Shiplord Kirel Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:54:03am |
re: #1 prairiefire
Yes, and it is my understanding that they also contribute things such as rage issues and obesity to different sorts of demons as well.
There's a very elaborate modern demonology among the suburban fundamentalists who support the media-based mega-churches:
This is a helpful guide for identifying and getting rid of the demons who control such phenomena as martial arts, rock and roll, frog imagery, and (presumably) Dodge Demons.
The author, Rebecca Brown, is a freelance "therapist" and researcher who has been embroiled in one controversy after another for many years. Quite a few other fundies regard her as crazy. Trained as an MD, she lost her medical license for using woo-woo rather than actual medical practice in treating patients.
20 | Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:54:09am |
re: #14 Gus
Demonic possession! Well, we all know the scientifically proven method for curing that: exorcisms!
Trepanning.
21 | darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:54:46am |
re: #13 NJDhockeyfan
Who is Pat Robertson?
Former Republican candidate for President. Almost as Reagan as Reagan was.
22 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:55:00am |
23 | Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:55:24am |
re: #17 Kragar
Pat would feel right at home with the commenters over at Fox Nation
Transsexual Booted from Miss UniverseWhat charming people.
It's amazing. These wingnuts have widened their horizons well beyond there post-911 anti-Islamic resurgence. They hate everybody much in the way that the old bigots of days we once though gone by. It was was always here.
24 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:55:38am |
re: #22 NJDhockeyfan
Of course not. He's irrelevant. Who cares what he thinks?
Why is he irrelevant? He has a lot of power and pull among the religious right in the US.
25 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:56:11am |
Apparently Robertson also wants Peyton Manning to be injured to punish the Broncos for trading Tebow. (AKA, the first Christian ever to make it in professional football.)
Not a well man.
27 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:56:26am |
re: #21 darthstar
Former Republican candidate for President. Almost as Reagan as Reagan was.
He's not in the same universe near Ronald Reagan. The only people who put up with him for a while was MSNBC.
29 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:57:09am |
re: #27 NJDhockeyfan
He's not in the same universe near Ronald Reagan. The only people who put up with him for a while was MSNBC.
Um, and Reagan.
30 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:57:22am |
re: #27 NJDhockeyfan
He's not in the same universe near Ronald Reagan. The only people who put up with him for a while was MSNBC.
Wait. You can't be seriously confusing him with Buchanan.
32 | Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:58:20am |
re: #22 NJDhockeyfan
Of course not. He's irrelevant. Who cares what he thinks?
According to their stats, over a million viewers in 39 countries.
33 | RadicalModerate Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:58:40am |
At one time, there was a widespread belief by Christians that being left-handed was a sign of demonic possession. Great track record there, guys.
34 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:58:52am |
re: #30 'M AFFN FUN
Wait. You can't be seriously confusing him with Buchanan.
Oh shit, maybe I am. Sorry about that. Two peas in a pod.
35 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 10:59:35am |
re: #34 NJDhockeyfan
Well, not really. Robertson has a lot more pull and power than Buchanan does on the religious right.
36 | Simply Sarah Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:01:09am |
re: #17 Kragar
Pat would feel right at home with the commenters over at Fox Nation
Transsexual Booted from Miss UniverseWhat charming people.
I hate to say it, but considering the kind of stuff I'm used to seeing when trans people are the topic most places, I almost find those comments quaint. I suppose that doesn't reflect well on where my expectations have been set.
37 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:01:48am |
re: #35 Obdicut
Well, not really. Robertson has a lot more pull and power than Buchanan does on the religious right.
I live in the bible belt of Virginia. I've been here for 22 years. I have never met a single person who is a fan or supporter of Robertson. Thank goodness for that.
38 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:02:03am |
There doesn't need to be a reason for everything. Sometimes we just point and laugh.
39 | rwmofo Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:02:03am |
Left-Wing reporters are livid that "controversial" Dick Cheney got a heart transplant and was not allowed to just die.
Matt Lauer: "Dick Cheney can cause all kinds of controversy if he orders a cup of tea."
Remember when Sarah Palin was ridiculed for suggesting that the media/democrat party were pushing for "Death Panels" if they were allowed to take over our health care? How prophetic. Well, here they are on national TV openly arguing that www.nytimes.com...]>conservatives don't deserve the level of health care that someone like Ted Kennedy would be placed in a VIP line to receive.
The open hatred from these "reporters" no longer surprises me.
40 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:01am |
re: #37 NJDhockeyfan
I live in the bible belt of Virginia. I've been here for 22 years. I have never met a single person who is a fan or supporter of Robertson. Thank goodness for that.
You may have met them, they just may not have told you they're fans of his.
I'm not sure what your point is? Pat Robertson is an influential figure on the religious right, whose endorsement is still sought by GOP leaders.
42 | Shiplord Kirel Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:15am |
With Jerry Falwell having reached his expiration date and James Dobson pursuing other ventures, Pat is almost the last man standing among the really high-profile first generation political televangelists. He may not have as much direct influence as he used to, but he is very much an elder statesman, perhaps THE elder statesman, of a movement that now controls the Republican party. That is quite relevant.
43 | Simply Sarah Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:33am |
re: #33 RadicalModerate
At one time, there was a widespread belief by Christians that being left-handed was a sign of demonic possession. Great track record there, guys.
Hence the term sinister.
44 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:42am |
re: #39 rwmofo
Heh. Even assuming for a second the moronic vision of the "death panels", can you tell me how private death panels are better than public ones?
45 | prairiefire Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:03:52am |
re: #19 Shiplord Kirel
I attended a full faith church in the early 80's when this whole mega church, fundie thing was taking off. I just could not believe it. I believe in "spirits of the earth and of the air", but I don't think these folks have any theological tether to the issue.
46 | Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:05:08am |
re: #39 rwmofo
Left-Wing reporters are livid that "controversial" Dick Cheney got a heart transplant and was not allowed to just die.
Matt Lauer: "Dick Cheney can cause all kinds of controversy if he orders a cup of tea."
Remember when Sarah Palin was ridiculed for suggesting that the media/democrat party were pushing for "Death Panels" if they were allowed to take over our health care? How prophetic. Well, here they are on national TV openly arguing that www.nytimes.com...]>conservatives don't deserve the level of health care that someone like Ted Kennedy would be placed in a VIP line to receive.
The open hatred from these "reporters" no longer surprises me.
They're asking a legitimate question. This is a democracy not a plutocratic dictatorship. Odds are if you're just your average Joe, over the age of 65, you will no get a heart transplant.
47 | RadicalModerate Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:05:44am |
Robertson is almost as bad as Buchanan. Not so much with the blatant racism, but he is much worse with his multiple statements supporting violence against those who disagree with his worldview.
Here's a list of just a few:
[Link: politicalhumor.about.com...]
49 | Interesting Times Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:06:29am |
re: #39 rwmofo
Kindly stuff this down your hypocritical craw:
My grandfather was denied a heart transplant at 67, yet #cheney gets one at 71? No way the system is fair. The #1% score again.— Deborah Davis (@davisdebs) March 25, 2012
50 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:07:23am |
Death panels are OK as long as it is the invisible hand of the free market that finishes you off. /
51 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:08:38am |
re: #45 prairiefire
I attended a full faith church in the early 80's when this whole mega church, fundie thing was taking off. I just could not believe it. I believe in "spirits of the earth and of the air", but I don't think these folks have any theological tether to the issue.
I have never been to one of those gigantic church. I prefer small ones. We went to Tulsa once for my brother's wedding. The hotel we stayed at was right across the street for a huge mega church. My brother blasted his truck stereo with Andrew Dice Clay for a couple hours in the parking lot one night. I always wondered if they thought Satan was staying at the hotel.
52 | Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:08:58am |
We'd also have more hearts available if people weren't either a) superstitious dunderheads or b) inconsiderate dick wads. I.e., check off your donor box in your driver's license.
53 | Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:09:30am |
re: #49 Interesting Times
Kindly stuff this down your hypocritical craw:
To be fair, Cheney probably had the heart sitting in a jar on his desk all along, so he might as well have used it.
54 | Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:10:08am |
More than 3,100 Americans are currently on the national waiting list for a heart transplant. Just over 2,300 heart transplants were performed last year, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing. And 330 people died while waiting.
Seriously? In a nation of 300 million people? WTF. That's bullshit.
55 | dragonfire1981 Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:11:02am |
re: #33 RadicalModerate
At one time, there was a widespread belief by Christians that being left-handed was a sign of demonic possession. Great track record there, guys.
Well I guess that makes me a true demon spawn. I am left handed as were both my parents.
56 | iossarian Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:11:11am |
re: #54 Gus
More than 3,100 Americans are currently on the national waiting list for a heart transplant. Just over 2,300 heart transplants were performed last year, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing. And 330 people died while waiting.
Seriously? In a nation of 300 million people? WTF. That's bullshit.
The key stat is: what percentage of the 300 million ride motorcycles?
57 | Someone Please Beam Me Up! Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:11:29am |
re: #43 Simply Sarah
Hence the term sinister.
Well, not exactly. The left direction was "of ill omen" to the Romans (as well as the Greeks), so the Latin word for left became unlucky as well. Long before Christians picked it up, though. (In Classical Greek, they used "of good omen" as a euphemism for left.)
/pedant mode off
58 | Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:11:44am |
re: #54 Gus
More than 3,100 Americans are currently on the national waiting list for a heart transplant. Just over 2,300 heart transplants were performed last year, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing. And 330 people died while waiting.
Seriously? In a nation of 300 million people? WTF. That's bullshit.
Donor compatibility, but mostly money.
59 | Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:12:11am |
re: #55 dragonfire1981
Well I guess that makes me a true demon spawn. I am left handed as were both my parents.
IMMOLATE THEM!
///
60 | Simply Sarah Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:12:34am |
re: #57 One of the Seventeen
Well, not exactly. The left direction was "of ill omen" to the Romans (as well as the Greeks), so the Latin word for left became unlucky as well. Long before Christians picked it up, though. (In Classical Greek, they used "of good omen" as a euphemism for left.)
/pedant mode off
Yes, yes. I'm aware. This is why riding on subways in Europe can give a weird feeling.
61 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:13:00am |
re: #55 dragonfire1981
Well I guess that makes me a true demon spawn. I am left handed as were both my parents.
Nah, for that you would have to be red-headed. //
62 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:16:22am |
re: #53 Kragar
To be fair, Cheney probably had the heart sitting in a jar on his desk all along, so he might as well have used it.
I heard he saved it from one of the babies he ate.
63 | dragonfire1981 Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:17:39am |
re: #61 'M AFFN FUN
Nah, for that you would have to be red-headed. //
Actually, I AM red headed. Should I be scared yet?
64 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:20:55am |
65 | Someone Please Beam Me Up! Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:22:12am |
OT: On NPR, Henry Sokolski just said that if we want to reduce the numbers of nuclear weapons, we need to get everyone into the arms reduction hot tub.
I heard this.
(But aren't all the demons in there already?)
66 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:23:28am |
re: #65 One of the Seventeen
OT: On NPR, Henry Sokolski just said that if we want to reduce the numbers of nuclear weapons, we need to get everyone into the arms reduction hot tub.
Isn't that the smart thing to do?
67 | dragonfire1981 Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:24:42am |
re: #65 One of the Seventeen
On NPR, Henry Sokolski just said that if we want to reduce the numbers of nuclear weapons, we need to get everyone into the arms reduction hot tub.
I heard this.
(But aren't all the demons in there already?)
I'm not :p
68 | darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:25:06am |
re: #17 Kragar
Pat would feel right at home with the commenters over at Fox Nation
That's too bad. Miss Universe is all about the image of beauty. Transsexuals spend alot if time trying to achieve that...they should be allowed to compete.
69 | Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:25:26am |
re: #66 NJDhockeyfan
Isn't that the smart thing to do?
Should go over well. Everybody looks at America and goes "You go first."
70 | Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:28:41am |
Zimmerman Friend: ‘He’s Very Sorry Because In Many Ways, George Has Lost His Life Too’
Except for the unimportant walking around, breathing, and having a future parts.
71 | prairiefire Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:28:47am |
OT ~ "Stocks rally nearing multi-year highs"[Link: bottomline.msnbc.msn.com...]
72 | Simply Sarah Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:29:09am |
re: #68 darthstar
That's too bad. Miss Universe is all about the image of beauty. Transsexuals spend alot if time trying to achieve that...they should be allowed to compete.
It's far simpler than that. She's a woman and meets all their other eligibility requirements. Therefore there is no reason she should not be allowed to compete.
73 | Sheila Broflovski Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:30:21am |
Zedushka, who has been a Climate Change denier, went to the library and brought home Coming Climate Crisis? Consider the Past, Beware the Big Fix by Claire Parkinson.
Has anyone read this book? Dr. Parkinson is a NASA climatologist.
74 | NJDhockeyfan Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:30:29am |
re: #71 prairiefire
OT ~ "Stocks rally nearing multi-year highs"[Link: bottomline.msnbc.msn.com...]
Great. My 401k might rise out of the toilet it's been in.
75 | erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:31:27am |
re: #71 prairiefire
OT ~ "Stocks rally nearing multi-year highs"[Link: bottomline.msnbc.msn.com...]
Goddamned Kenyan atheist-muslim marxist socialist terror-babies.
77 | Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:32:52am |
re: #70 Kragar
Zimmerman Friend: ‘He’s Very Sorry Because In Many Ways, George Has Lost His Life Too’
Except for the unimportant walking around, breathing, and having a future parts.
Wait, you mean getting away with murder isn't all that glamorous? Color me shocked!
//
78 | darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:33:00am |
re: #75 erik_t
Goddamned Kenyan atheist-muslim marxist socialist terror-babies.
When Mitt Romney is president, increases in the stock market and drops in unemployment will be GOOD things.
79 | Our Precious Bodily Fluids Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:33:41am |
[Link: www.details.com...]
Peterson Toscano, a gay Christian activist, underwent three exorcisms before coming to terms with his sexuality. One took place in the Greenpoint section of Brooklyn, another in an apartment on the West Side of Manhattan owned by Joanne Highley, who runs L.I.F.E. Ministry. During the latter exorcism, Highley had him lie down on her bed, then she sat beside him and began to press on his body, commanding the demons to exit through his mouth and rectum. Before the rite was complete, Toscano, who says he felt increasingly violated by Highley's actions, stopped the ritual and left her apartment. Highley did not respond to requests to be interviewed, but she has previously stated that her process is to "cleanse and bind demonic powers . . . out of genitals, of course out of anal canals, out of intestines, out of throats and mouths if there's been ungodly deposit of semen in those areas—we cleanse with the blood of Jesus, and we cast out the demonic powers." Some practitioners of deliverance believe that a demon has a physical as well as a spiritual form and can be purged through the orifices—thus an exorcism can be judged successful if the subject vomits, coughs up sputum, or, in rare cases, evacuates his bowels.
80 | Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:34:27am |
re: #70 Kragar
Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun
if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?
81 | Someone Please Beam Me Up! Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:36:04am |
re: #73 Learned Mother of Zion
Zedushka, who has been a Climate Change denier, went to the library and brought home Coming Climate Crisis? Consider the Past, Beware the Big Fix by Claire Parkinson.
Has anyone read this book? Dr. Parkinson is a NASA climatologist.
He's going to be disappointed. I haven't read the book either, but I understand it's a critique of some of the proposed solutions, in no way involving denial of the fact of global warming or humans' part in it.
82 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:36:09am |
If economy improves, Mitt has nothing but resentment to run on.
83 | Kragar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:36:46am |
re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance
Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun
if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?
Because if you're walking around at night, and someone drives up, gets out of his car and pulls a gun on you, you must not under any circumstances attempt to protect yourself.
/
84 | Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:38:03am |
re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance
Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun
if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?
Because the police are concerned mainly with legal and criminal matters. They aren't running a Public relations firm. Releasing information on while investigations are ongoing can jeopardize trials.
85 | sagehen Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:38:08am |
re: #54 Gus
More than 3,100 Americans are currently on the national waiting list for a heart transplant. Just over 2,300 heart transplants were performed last year, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing. And 330 people died while waiting.
Seriously? In a nation of 300 million people? WTF. That's bullshit.
Of that 2300, slightly over 300 of them were to patients over age 65. So it's not totally unheard of; and he has been on the list for almost two years (much longer than he's had that experimental artificial pulseless heart, so if he hadn't gotten that he'd have died waiting).
86 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:38:46am |
re: #73 Learned Mother of Zion
She's basically a soft denier, but not a total nutbar. She's mostly skeptical about using geoengineering to combat AGW. However, the book also contains what I'd call disinformation, I'm afraid.
87 | iossarian Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:39:09am |
re: #83 Kragar
Because if you're walking around at night, and someone drives up, gets out of his car and pulls a gun on you, you must not under any circumstances attempt to protect yourself.
/
What a fucking mess.
The most likely outcome of this story is further reconfirmation that white people can get away with killing black people in the US, but not vice-versa.
88 | Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:39:56am |
re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance
Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun
if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?
Not only tried for Zimmerman's gun, but socked him in the face and then slammed his head repeatedly against the ground.
Yet, somehow, Martin's the one who ended up on his stomach, with his hands under him, when the fatal shot was fired.
89 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:40:29am |
re: #84 Killgore Trout
Because the police are concerned mainly with legal and criminal matters. They aren't running a Public relations firm. Releasing information on while investigations are ongoing can jeopardize trials.
What investigation was ongoing?
90 | AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:41:00am |
re: #70 Kragar
Zimmerman Friend: ‘He’s Very Sorry Because In Many Ways, George Has Lost His Life Too’
Except for the unimportant walking around, breathing, and having a future parts.
Especially as his idea of "life" involved following black kids around the neighborhood with a gun...that part of it is about over for him.
91 | RadicalModerate Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:41:23am |
How many times has the account of what happened during the confrontation according to Zimmerman (and Sanford police) changed now? I've lost count.
92 | iossarian Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:41:43am |
re: #90 Second Amendment Renegation
Especially as his idea of "life" involved following black kids around the neighborhood with a gun...that part of it is about over for him.
Why? The most likely outcome is that he, and people just like him, will in fact be emboldened to continue doing exactly that.
93 | Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:42:19am |
re: #89 Obdicut
What investigation was ongoing?
I think the FBI is doing their own investigation and there a grand jury scheduled in a few weeks.
94 | Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:42:44am |
re: #91 RadicalModerate
How many times has the account of what happened during the confrontation according to Zimmerman (and Sanford police) changed now? I've lost count.
Supposedly this is the version given initially to the cops, though it now includes the element that Martin confronted him, when previously the narrative was that Martin jumped him as he was returning to his SUV.
95 | darthstar Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:43:19am |
re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance
Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun
if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?
If some asshole was pointing a gun at me I might go for it too. But that doesn't make it self defense. If anything, it indicates Trayvon was acting in self defense.
96 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:43:24am |
re: #88 Targetpractice
It's entirely possible that Martin did go for Zimmerman's gun. If a guy had been following me for blocks and blocks, and then approached me and I saw he had a gun, I might panic and try to grab it too.
This is actually something I've been saying from the start: part of the problem of having people going around armed is that they can interpret any attack on them as a potentially deadly one, because they're carrying around a deadly weapon and if their 'assailant' gets it, they could kill them.
97 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:44:35am |
re: #93 Killgore Trout
I think the FBI is doing their own investigation and there a grand jury scheduled in a few weeks.
But both of those only happened after the outcry. You were talking about the police department. Are you really taking the position that releasing Zimmerman without holding him for questioning was the right move on the part of the police?
98 | erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:45:14am |
re: #94 Targetpractice
Supposedly this is the version given initially to the cops, though it now includes the element that Martin confronted him, when previously the narrative was that Martin jumped him as he was returning to his SUV.
Returning to? I thought he hopped out to check the name of the street in his own neighborhood, or some stupid damned thing? The neighborhood that he presumably knew well enough to watch and patrol?
99 | ReamWorks SKG Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:45:52am |
It was a stupid decision for Miss Universe. Their television ratings would have been better than usual.
100 | Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:47:19am |
re: #97 Obdicut
But both of those only happened after the outcry. You were talking about the police department. Are you really taking the position that releasing Zimmerman without holding him for questioning was the right move on the part of the police?
They did question him and believed his account. I'm not sure they can legally detain somebody if there's insufficient evidence of a crime.
101 | Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:47:59am |
re: #96 Obdicut
It's entirely possible that Martin did go for Zimmerman's gun. If a guy had been following me for blocks and blocks, and then approached me and I saw he had a gun, I might panic and try to grab it too.
This is actually something I've been saying from the start: part of the problem of having people going around armed is that they can interpret any attack on them as a potentially deadly one, because they're carrying around a deadly weapon and if their 'assailant' gets it, they could kill them.
Oh, I don't doubt it plausible that he went for the gun, in a panic to avoid getting shot. Then again, if Zimmerman was brandishing it in the first place, then he knowing escalated the situation by presenting the threat of being shot to Trayvon.
Of course, this is still only one half of the story, with the other half being a might difficult to obtain due to a terminal case of death.
102 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:48:05am |
re: #100 Killgore Trout
They did question him and believed his account. I'm not sure they can legally detain somebody if there's insufficient evidence of a crime.
Heh. Um, yes, they can. They can hold anyone for up to 48, or, in some states, 72 hours. It's absolutely standard procedure.
Maybe you should do a little research?
103 | Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:49:16am |
re: #101 Targetpractice
Oh, I don't doubt it plausible that he went for the gun, in a panic to avoid getting shot. Then again, if Zimmerman was brandishing it in the first place, then he knowing escalated the situation by presenting the threat of being shot to Trayvon.
Of course, this is still only one half of the story, with the other half being a might difficult to obtain due to a terminal case of death.
I haven't seen any reports he was brandishing. The witnesses to the fight made no mention of seeing a gun.
104 | erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:49:30am |
re: #100 Killgore Trout
They did question him and believed his account. I'm not sure they can legally detain somebody if there's insufficient evidence of a crime.
Dead body is pretty substantial probable cause.
105 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:50:02am |
re: #103 Killgore Trout
I haven't seen any reports he was brandishing. The witnesses to the fight made no mention of seeing a gun.
Are you saying there was a witness who saw the beginning of the fight, Killgore?
106 | erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:50:35am |
re: #103 Killgore Trout
I haven't seen any reports he was brandishing. The witnesses to the fight made no mention of seeing a gun.
Presumably he fired it from within his Cloak of +3 Disguising, then?
This is inane.
107 | iossarian Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:50:48am |
re: #102 Obdicut
Heh. Um, yes, they can. They can hold anyone for up to 48, or, in some states, 72 hours. It's absolutely standard procedure.
Maybe you should do a little research?
I've forgotten. Is it better to have speech out in the open, where everyone can say what they think, even if they haven't done any research?
Or is it better for people to do conscientious research before adding to the conversation, so they don't muddy the waters?
Or is it just, say whatever is the opposite of what "lefties" are saying, and hope that it makes some kind of sense?
It's so confusing.
108 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:50:53am |
re: #88 Targetpractice
Not only tried for Zimmerman's gun, but socked him in the face and then slammed his head repeatedly against the ground.
Yet, somehow, Martin's the one who ended up on his stomach, with his hands under him, when the fatal shot was fired.
If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and Zimmerman fired the shot, then after GZ was getting up, he would have necessarily moved the body, which could end up in either position.
109 | ReamWorks SKG Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:51:44am |
"This is actually something I've been saying from the start: part of the problem of having people going around armed is that they can interpret any attack on them as a potentially deadly one, because they're carrying around a deadly weapon and if their 'assailant' gets it, they could kill them."
This has been my thinking, too. "Stand Your Ground" only makes sense when someone has entered your home. It makes no sense out in public except in very special circumstances. And, for any shooting out in public, it's only reasonable for there not to be a complete investigation, even for a SYG shooting, so we can be sure that the two didn't know each other (for example) and that all the facts are known.
Even if Trayvon Martin had been attacking George Zimmerman, the fact is that he was only attacking him because he was being chased. Martin may have thought that this was simply an ordinary street brawl, and not some wanna-be cop looking for someone to harass.
110 | Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:51:56am |
re: #103 Killgore Trout
I haven't seen any reports he was brandishing. The witnesses to the fight made no mention of seeing a gun.
So if the witness didn't see a gun then who shot Trayvon? That really doesn't make much sense. The witness may have not mentioned a gun but it's obvious that a gun was central to this case. Just because the witness didn't see any "brandishing" does not negate that possibility.
111 | Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:53:33am |
re: #108 'M AFFN FUN
If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and Zimmerman fired the shot, then after GZ was getting up, he would have necessarily moved the body, which could end up in either position.
According to eyewitnesses, when the whole altercation ended, it was Zimmerman straddling Martin, who was on his stomach with his hands under him.
But we'd know more if a corner's report was ever released, but considering that you'd need a crowbar to get anything of such value out of the hands of the SPD, I'm not holding my breath.
112 | RadicalModerate Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:54:34am |
Just a thought on the double-standards involved here. If, for some reason Zimmerman had ended up being killed during the confrontation, do any of you believe - even for a second - that Trayvon Martin would not be in jail at this very moment charged with murder?
113 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:54:38am |
re: #100 Killgore Trout
They did question him and believed his account. I'm not sure they can legally detain somebody if there's insufficient evidence of a crime.
Normally they would detain him, test him and see of there is a probable cause or not in a calm situation and without possibility of destruction of evidence. Under the SYG law they couldn't arrest or detain him as a suspect without first establishing a probable cause. Which only makes the police work harder and the results more uncertain.
114 | Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:56:31am |
So basically we have Zimmerman's word against a dead young man. Doesn't seem very fair to me at all. Not one bit.
115 | Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:57:17am |
re: #114 Gus
So basically we have Zimmerman's word against a dead young man. Doesn't seem very fair to me at all. Not one bit.
Come on, Gus, don't you feel his bad? His life's ended now, this case has totally destroyed it! Can't you feel some sympathy for him?!
///^nth
116 | AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:57:29am |
re: #114 Gus
So basically we have Zimmerman's word against a dead young man. Doesn't seem very fair to me at all. Not one bit.
this is the sort of law that encourages one not to leave any living witnesses to contradict your testimony...
117 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:58:06am |
re: #113 'M AFFN FUN
They can't charge him without reasonable proof of the crime, but they certainly could have arrested and held him without proof of a particular crime, yes.
118 | iossarian Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:58:45am |
re: #112 RadicalModerate
Just a thought on the double-standards involved here. If, for some reason Zimmerman had ended up being killed during the confrontation, do any of you believe - even for a second - that Trayvon Martin would not be in jail at this very moment charged with murder?
This, for me, is what the story is all about. The legal development of the case will be whatever it is, but it won't really change the overall story:
- white guy kills black kid, OK
- black kid kills white man (or, heaven forbid, woman), not OK.
119 | Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:59:06am |
re: #105 Obdicut
Are you saying there was a witness who saw the beginning of the fight, Killgore?
I haven't seen any reports of witnesses seeing the start of the fight but none of the reports of seeing the fight ongoing reported a gun as far as I know. Do we know if he was concealed or open carrying?
120 | Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:59:08am |
re: #115 Targetpractice
Come on, Gus, don't you feel his bad? His life's ended now, this case has totally destroyed it! Can't you feel some sympathy for him?!
///^nth
I am concerned that the media is doing a shitty job on the story and really don't want to see Zimmerman railroaded for political expediency.
//
121 | Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:59:49am |
re: #116 Second Amendment Renegation
this is the sort of law that encourages one not to leave any living witnesses to contradict your testimony...
Really, what I see the law doing is encouraging recklessness, encouraging Dirty Harry wannabes like Zimmerman to take the risk of confronting "suspicious persons," because he knows that if things go south and he's on the losing side of the fight, he can shoot to kill without worrying that he'll face the consequences.
122 | goddamnedfrank Mon, Mar 26, 2012 11:59:59am |
re: #113 'M AFFN FUN
Under the SYG law they couldn't arrest or detain him as a suspect without first establishing a probable cause.
Not true. They chose not to arrest him, nothing in the law forced that decision. SYG is to be interpreted by judges, as a way of dismissing charges after they've been brought. Police can detain without charging for 48 hours, seek material witness warrants to detain longer, and file charges pending judicial review under the law. In this case the police may have looked at the prior number of cases that had been dismissed, but there was nothing under or about SYG that should have altered the investigation. Even under SYG what they did was misconduct.
123 | Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:01:00pm |
re: #110 Gus
So if the witness didn't see a gun then who shot Trayvon? That really doesn't make much sense. The witness may have not mentioned a gun but it's obvious that a gun was central to this case. Just because the witness didn't see any "brandishing" does not negate that possibility.
if he was brandishing then it's more likely the witnesses would have seen the gun.
124 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:01:18pm |
re: #111 Targetpractice
According to eyewitnesses, when the whole altercation ended, it was Zimmerman straddling Martin, who was on his stomach with his hands under him.
But we'd know more if a corner's report was ever released, but considering that you'd need a crowbar to get anything of such value out of the hands of the SPD, I'm not holding my breath.
Yes, and another witness says that "The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911". So the witnesses you mention describe the last phase of the situation, after the gunshot (they don't claim to have seen the whole fight), while this witness describes the situation before the gunshot. There's no contradiction, at least between these accounts.
125 | Targetpractice Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:01:55pm |
re: #118 iossarian
This, for me, is what the story is all about. The legal development of the case will be whatever it is, but it won't really change the overall story:
- white guy kills black kid, OK
- black kid kills white man (or, heaven forbid, woman), not OK.
There's a story in Tampa of a black man killing a white man during a scuffle involving a gun. And, horror of horrors, he's been arrested and is awaiting a verdict on whether he'll stand trial or not.
126 | blueraven Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:02:11pm |
re: #84 Killgore Trout
Because the police are concerned mainly with legal and criminal matters. They aren't running a Public relations firm. Releasing information on while investigations are ongoing can jeopardize trials.
What investigation? They detained and released Zimmerman the same night. No matter what happened, he should have been arrested and the evidence turned over the the prosecutors office.
A similar case in Florida, where there was a scuffle in a park; one man had a gun and killed the man trying to take it away. The man with the gun was a black man, the other a white vet. The man was arrested and is now on trial.
Normally, you are not allowed to kill someone, claim it was self defense and just walk.
127 | Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:02:18pm |
re: #123 Killgore Trout
if he was brandishing then it's more likely the witnesses would have seen the gun.
But nobody saw any gun period did they? No one saw the actual shooting either.
128 | Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:03:07pm |
re: #127 Gus
But nobody saw any gun period did they? No one saw the actual shooting either.
Not that I know of.
129 | AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:03:52pm |
re: #118 iossarian
This, for me, is what the story is all about. The legal development of the case will be whatever it is, but it won't really change the overall story:
- white guy kills black kid, OK
- black kid kills white man (or, heaven forbid, woman), not OK.
It also has a lot to do with the wqay the local PD handled it, which I suspect would have been entirely differently had a black person claimed he was standing his ground.
130 | AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:04:46pm |
re: #120 Gus
I am concerned that the media is doing a shitty job on the story and really don't want to see Zimmerman railroaded for political expediency.
//
Or, even worse, a Zimmermann falling victim to vigilante justice and becoming a martyr.
131 | goddamnedfrank Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:05:58pm |
re: #119 Killgore Trout
I haven't seen any reports of witnesses seeing the start of the fight but none of the reports of seeing the fight ongoing reported a gun as far as I know. Do we know if he was concealed or open carrying?
Concealed. The cop pulled Zimmerman's gun from an in the waistband holster after handcuffing him. Zimmerman was wearing a sweater that night, and had a CCW permit. In order for Martin to know the gun was there either he would have had to have felt it during the scuffle or Zimmerman had to have brandished it.
132 | Our Precious Bodily Fluids Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:08:15pm |
re: #100 Killgore Trout
They did question him and believed his account. I'm not sure they can legally detain somebody if there's insufficient evidence of a crime.
Which account did they believe? This "he went for my gun" angle is at least the third version of events that "police say" he told them.
Also, why are police commenting on an ongoing investigation?
133 | Eventual Carrion Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:08:23pm |
re: #103 Killgore Trout
I haven't seen any reports he was brandishing. The witnesses to the fight made no mention of seeing a gun.
So he wasn't brandishing it, but Martin was going for it. Kid have X-ray vision?
134 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:09:24pm |
re: #122 goddamnedfrank
Not true. They chose not to arrest him, nothing in the law forced that decision. SYG is to be interpreted by judges, as a way of dismissing charges after they've been brought. Police can detain without charging for 48 hours, seek material witness warrants to detain longer, and file charges pending judicial review under the law. In this case the police may have looked at the prior number of cases that had been dismissed, but there was nothing under or about SYG that should have altered the investigation. Even under SYG what they did was misconduct.
Here's the relevant part:
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
(3) provides for redress in case of a "wrongful" criminal prosecution, but (1) expressly forbids criminal prosecution (including arrest and detention) without probable cause. How is that to be decided by the judge? Isn't this a direct prohibition?
135 | Daniel Ballard Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:09:51pm |
re: #96 Obdicut
I have one question about self defense and an obligation to flee. How high is that burden of proof of that? How might one prove he tried to flee?
Is that any clearer in a case with fragmentary evidence?
Frankly I'm think a proportion of force used to defend seems like a better way to go. Gun vs smaller kid? Now there is a good clue.
136 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:10:10pm |
re: #119 Killgore Trout
I haven't seen any reports of witnesses seeing the start of the fight but none of the reports of seeing the fight ongoing reported a gun as far as I know. Do we know if he was concealed or open carrying?
So we have no information on whether or not he was brandishing the gun, since no one saw the start of it.
137 | Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:10:16pm |
re: #131 goddamnedfrank
Concealed. The cop pulled Zimmerman's gun from an in the waistband holster after handcuffing him. Zimmerman was wearing a sweater that night, and had a CCW permit. In order for Martin to know the gun was there either he would have had to have felt it during the scuffle or Zimmerman had to have brandished it.
Ok, that makes sense. If the account of the scuffle is accurate how does that effect the brandishing claim? If zimmerman had his weapon drawn would he let Trayvon get close enough to punch him in the face? Would he go directly for the gun instead of punching him and bashing his head into the sidewalk? If the gun was already out I would think the fight would have been two guys rolling around trying to wrestle control of the weapon.
138 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:11:20pm |
re: #135 Daniel Ballard
I have one question about self defense and an obligation to flee. How high is that burden of proof of that? How might one prove he tried to flee?
You don't have to prove that you tried to flee. You have to assert it, and to prosecute you, the state would have to disprove it.
Frankly I'm think a proportion of force used to defend seems like a better way to go. Gun vs smaller kid? Now there is a good clue.
It's not an either/or proposition, though.
139 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:12:39pm |
re: #137 Killgore Trout
Ok, that makes sense. If the account of the scuffle is accurate how does that effect the brandishing claim?
Nobody is claiming that he brandished it. He may have. Nobody is saying that he did.
140 | Our Precious Bodily Fluids Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:13:19pm |
Note that the internet is basically acting as a giant, free focus group for whatever bullshit Zimmerman's "advisors" might want to float. If they wanted to float some bullshit, that is. You know. Like, in the event.
141 | Daniel Ballard Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:15:49pm |
re: #138 Obdicut
You don't have to prove that you tried to flee. You have to assert it, and to prosecute you, the state would have to disprove it.
It's not an either/or proposition, though.
It can be for a lawmaker on a public safety committee. And we have many states that do have an obligation to try to retreat. How that standard is constructed is worth understanding. As in how to construct or change existing laws.
So you are saying a mere assertion will do pending contrary evidence?
142 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:17:19pm |
By the way, Killgore, police release information while investigations are ongoing all the time. You've probably seen quite a few news conferences with cops where they do it.
143 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:17:52pm |
re: #142 Obdicut
Yes, and in fact SPD had such a QA conference.
144 | allegro Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:18:27pm |
re: #134 'M AFFN FUN
Here's the relevant part:
(3) provides for redress in case of a "wrongful" criminal prosecution, but (1) expressly forbids criminal prosecution (including arrest and detention) without probable cause. How is that to be decided by the judge? Isn't this a direct prohibition?
How much more probable cause do the police need than a dead, unarmed kid?
145 | Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:19:18pm |
re: #141 Daniel Ballard
It can be for a lawmaker on a public safety committee. And we have many states that do have an obligation to try to retreat. How that standard is constructed is worth understanding. As in how to construct or change existing laws.
So you are saying a mere assertion will do pending contrary evidence?
I'm not sure about other Fla laws but the stand your ground law makes a point of stating that the burden of proof for self defense stays on the prosecution. The gun owner has no obligation to prove they were acting in self defense, the state has to disprove it.
146 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:19:20pm |
re: #141 Daniel Ballard
It can be for a lawmaker on a public safety committee.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. He might think it's either/or, but it's not.
So you are saying a mere assertion will do pending contrary evidence?
Yes, that's right. You say "I tried to get away, but there was nowhere to go," or "I tried to run down the street, but he caught up to me".
And if the state can show you're lying about that, then they disprove that you tried to flee.
I'm not sure what you're asking-- do you think people have to somehow collect evidence themselves that shows they tried to flee?
147 | erik_t Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:19:35pm |
re: #144 allegro
How much more probably cause do the police need than a dead, unarmed kid?
It would help if he looked more white innocent.
148 | Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:20:09pm |
re: #142 Obdicut
By the way, Killgore, police release information while investigations are ongoing all the time. You've probably seen quite a few news conferences with cops where they do it.
They do, and they did in this case too. But they are careful about what they say.
149 | Gus Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:22:30pm |
Yeah. I'm going to take the Zimmerman camp seriously. Especially after one of his buddies deemed that he said "fucking goons" as a term of endearment. And how the story seems to change ever so slightly. Zimmerman went in pursuit of Martin. There's no two ways around that. Whatever happened afterwards is because Zimmerman was the provoking factor.
150 | blueraven Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:23:18pm |
re: #144 allegro
How much more probably cause do the police need than a dead, unarmed kid?
And why did this Florida black man get arrested and is on trial under somewhat similar circumstances. Because he was black? Selective enforcement...what?
[Link: thelede.blogs.nytimes.com...]
151 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:23:29pm |
re: #144 allegro
How much more probably cause do the police need than a dead, unarmed kid?
That's my point. The law doesn't see a mere dead body - even an unarmed dead body - as evidence of wrongdoing as long as there is a plausible story explaining it, that's exactly why the law was written. What would be the point of this section otherwise?
152 | Daniel Ballard Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:23:30pm |
re: #146 Obdicut
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. He might think it's either/or, but it's not.
I refer to the language a lawmaker might choose to go with to shape a states self defense laws. He might go with a standard that requires retreat, or he might leave that and go with a standard that first considers the amount of force or the disparity of force. That is a factor here in California for instance. Using a gun to resist an "attack with fists" is specifically forbidden.
153 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:24:21pm |
re: #148 Killgore Trout
They do, and they did in this case too. But they are careful about what they say.
They're careful not to say negative personal things, but there isn't any restriction about them talking about what they believe occurred. In fact, it's one of the duties of the cops to keep the public so informed.
154 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:25:09pm |
re: #152 Daniel Ballard
I refer to the language a lawmaker might choose to go with to shape a states self defense laws. He might go with a standard that requires retreat, or he might leave that and go with a standard that first considers the amount of force or the disparity of force.
He might, but he'd be dumb, since he can consider both.
That is a factor here in California for instance. Using a gun to resist an "attack with fists" is specifically forbidden.
And there is also a duty to retreat-- so, clearly, both can be considered at once.
155 | blueraven Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:25:23pm |
re: #151 'M AFFN FUN
That's my point. The law doesn't see a mere dead body - even an unarmed dead body - as evidence of wrongdoing as long as there is a plausible story explaining it, that's exactly why the law was written. What would be the point of this section otherwise?
See #150
It appears they do sometime
156 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:28:05pm |
re: #155 blueraven
See #150
It appears they do sometime
It is also obvious that would have happened to TM if the roles were reversed in GZ/TM situation. This doesn't change the fact that the law is a harmful POS.
157 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:33:24pm |
re: #134 'M AFFN FUN
They could have arrested him on other charges, though. Cops do that all the time, especially while they're trying to figure out what the hell happened. But you're right the law is even worse than I already thought it was. Fucking hell, what a terrible law.
158 | Obdicut Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:36:48pm |
One of the key parts with Zimmerman is if they actually got a real deposition from him or not.
159 | blueraven Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:43:06pm |
re: #156 'M AFFN FUN
It is also obvious that would have happened to TM if the roles were reversed in GZ/TM situation. This doesn't change the fact that the law is a harmful POS.
No doubt about that!
160 | AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:53:16pm |
re: #156 'M AFFN FUN
It is also obvious that would have happened to TM if the roles were reversed in GZ/TM situation. This doesn't change the fact that the law is a harmful POS.
And that is the crux of it. Between the working of the law and the negligent-to-complicit actions of the local PD, there is almost no chance of obtaining a conviction against Zimmermann.
The only positive thing i see coming out of this is that other states will be hesitant or unlikely to adopt similar laws.
161 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Mon, Mar 26, 2012 12:54:13pm |
re: #160 Second Amendment Renegation
Optimist.
162 | AK-47% Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:13:29pm |
163 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:34:26pm |
re: #34 NJDhockeyfan
Oh shit, maybe I am. Sorry about that. Two peas in a pod.
Similarly asshattish, but Robertson is more religion, and Buchanan is more fascism. And Robertson does better from it.
164 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:37:04pm |
re: #39 rwmofo
Left-Wing reporters are livid that "controversial" Dick Cheney got a heart transplant and was not allowed to just die.
Matt Lauer: "Dick Cheney can cause all kinds of controversy if he orders a cup of tea."
Remember when Sarah Palin was ridiculed for suggesting that the media/democrat party were pushing for "Death Panels" if they were allowed to take over our health care? How prophetic. Well, here they are on national TV openly arguing that www.nytimes.com...]>conservatives don't deserve the level of health care that someone like Ted Kennedy would be placed in a VIP line to receive.
The open hatred from these "reporters" no longer surprises me.
Uh, quick question, DID CHENEY GET HIS NEW HEART?
Yes, as would Ted Kennedy, because they are/were both rich.
Cheney's fine.
An insurance company would let a poorer man die for want of one, but it would not be called a death panel, just a business decision, or a medical ethics one, if they wanted to be fancy.
Shut up whining, already.
165 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:39:45pm |
re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance
Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun
if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?
Because the case was mishandled. But I'm not surprised he tried to get the gun. It's what I would have done, if I couldn't keep running.
166 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:39:57pm |
re: #83 Kragar
Because if you're walking around at night, and someone drives up, gets out of his car and pulls a gun on you, you must not under any circumstances attempt to protect yourself.
/
That would be wrong.
167 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:41:23pm |
re: #109 ReamWorks
This has been my thinking, too. "Stand Your Ground" only makes sense when someone has entered your home. It makes no sense out in public except in very special circumstances. And, for any shooting out in public, it's only reasonable for there not to be a complete investigation, even for a SYG shooting, so we can be sure that the two didn't know each other (for example) and that all the facts are known.
Even if Trayvon Martin had been attacking George Zimmerman, the fact is that he was only attacking him because he was being chased. Martin may have thought that this was simply an ordinary street brawl, and not some wanna-be cop looking for someone to harass.
Extending castle doctrine outside of the castle just doesn't make good social sense.
168 | SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Mar 26, 2012 1:42:03pm |
re: #112 RadicalModerate
Just a thought on the double-standards involved here. If, for some reason Zimmerman had ended up being killed during the confrontation, do any of you believe - even for a second - that Trayvon Martin would not be in jail at this very moment charged with murder?
No. Martin would have been arrested. I have no doubt, none whatsoever.
169 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Mar 26, 2012 2:05:46pm |
re: #80 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance
Supposedly Martin went for Zimmerman's gun
if that were true, then why did it take so long for this info to come out?
The cops were too busy writing the script
you know, fixing it around the narrative?
there's a reason they're called names, after all
I wonder why!
170 | labman57 Mon, Mar 26, 2012 8:15:22pm |
Pat needs to smoke a doobie and take a long nap.