Obama Campaign Ad: Mitt Romney, Job Destroyer

Predatory
Politics • Views: 33,948

The new advertisement from the Obama campaign takes direct aim at Mitt Romney’s Bain Capital, with the story of GST Steel — a company laid waste by Bain’s predatory business practices.

UPDATE at 5/14/12 12:35:19 pm

The right wing already has their talking point ready to go for this story: Romney left Bain Capital before GST Steel declared bankruptcy.

But while this is true, it doesn’t come close to telling the whole story: Retirement Deal Keeps Bain Money Flowing to Romney.

Almost 13 years ago, Mitt Romney left Bain Capital, the successful private equity firm he had helped start, and moved to Utah to rescue the Salt Lake City Olympic Games and begin a second career in public life.

Yet when it came to his considerable personal wealth, Mr. Romney never really left Bain.

In what would be the final deal of his private equity career, he negotiated a retirement agreement with his former partners that has paid him a share of Bain’s profits ever since, bringing the Romney family millions of dollars in income each year and bolstering the fortune that has helped finance Mr. Romney’s political aspirations.

The arrangement allowed Mr. Romney to pursue his career in public life while enjoying much of the financial upside of being a Bain partner as the company grew into a global investing behemoth.

In the process, Bain continued to buy and restructure companies, potentially leaving Mr. Romney exposed to further criticism that he has grown wealthier over the last decade partly as a result of layoffs. Moreover, much of his income from the arrangement has probably qualified for a lower tax rate than ordinary income under a tax provision favorable to hedge fund and private equity managers, which has become a point of contention in the battle over economic inequality.

(h/t: Gus.)

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299 comments
1 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:13:24am

swift boating Romney?

hehhehheh

2 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:14:56am

loading a company with debt in order to pull cash out of it --then letting the company fail.

Didn't Tony Soprano do that with a Sporting Goods store in the show?

3 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:16:46am

You're so Bain, you think this song is about you, don't you?

4 Kragar  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:18:57am

How dare you use the man's record against him!
///

5 AK-47%  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:19:00am

Whiny unionized workers. They deserve what they got!

6 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:19:04am

Romney should announce that his foreign policy is the "Bain" America's enemies. We'll buy Iran, sell lots of their bonds to China, and then bail with all the cash and oil. Then on to North Korea, Syria, Russia, etc.

Pax Bain will spread over the globe...
//

7 iossarian  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:19:33am

Corporate asset-stripping.

Reagan, Thatcher, Bush, Romney.

Taking the sweat of the working class and converting it to cash dollars for the idle rich. And then a big fuck you at the end of it all when you discover the pension fund's been "invested" in sub-prime mortgages.

8 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:20:16am

I think the Obama campaign will keep hanging this albatross around his neck until November, as well it should be.

9 AK-47%  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:21:10am

We have been sold the notion that American industry is in decline because of high union wages and benfits making it uncompetitive.

What this tells us is that the decline came from a business system and legislation that made it more profitable to sell off assets without any concern for long-term effects.

10 AK-47%  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:21:43am

re: #8 celticdragon

I think the Obama campaign will keep hanging this albatross around his neck until November, as well it should be.

Yes, becasue Obama is cruel and hearless and hates success...

/

11 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:22:08am

Obama's former auto czar doesn't like it...

Ex-Obama adviser: Latest anti-Romney ad is 'unfair'

Former Obama administration auto czar Steven Rattner said Monday that the Obama campaign's renewed attack on Mitt Romney's time in private equity was "unfair."

"I think the ad is unfair." Rattner said. "Mitt Romney made a mistake ever talking about the fact that he created 100,000 jobs."

The Obama campaign is going up in five states with a two minute ad about Romney's old company Bain Capital buying, then shuttering a Kansas City steel mill — calling it an example of Romney's business practices.

But Rattner, who himself was a private equity investor before joining the administration, said it's unfair to hold Bain to the standard of creating jobs.

"Bain Capital's responsibility was not to create 100,000 jobs or some other number. It was to create profits for its investors," Rattner said.

"It did it superbly well, acting within the rules, acting very responsibly,' Rattner said. "This is part of capitalism, this is part of life. I don't think there's anything Bain Capital did that they need to be embarrassed about."

12 Kragar  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:22:20am

Remember, a GOP politician can only be held accountable for words and actions for one week. Its only Democrats who should be investigated up to and past the moment of conception.

13 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:22:57am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's former auto czar doesn't like it...

Ex-Obama adviser: Latest anti-Romney ad is 'unfair'

All is fair in love, war and politics . . .

14 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:23:47am

re: #7 iossarian

Corporate asset-stripping.

Reagan, Thatcher, Bush, Romney.

Taking the sweat of the working class and converting it to cash dollars for the idle rich. And then a big fuck you at the end of it all when you discover the pension fund's been "invested" in sub-prime mortgages.

Worse. Bain tried to dump all the pensions etc completely. Retirees were to be thrown to the wolves with nothing.

15 Obdicut  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:23:54am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Yep. Their job wasn't to create jobs. The 'job creators' the GOP touts are not, in fact, job creators. They are profit-seekers, and if job-destruction leads to profit, they will follow that path.

The real job creators are people like you, me, and anyone who puts in a day's work and produces product. Labor is the root of wealth.

16 iossarian  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:24:29am

re: #15 Obdicut

Labor is the root of wealth.

Ha. You Marxist, you.

17 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:24:45am

re: #15 Obdicut

Yep. Their job wasn't to create jobs. The 'job creators' the GOP touts are not, in fact, job creators. They are profit-seekers, and if job-destruction leads to profit, they will follow that path.

The real job creators are people like you, me, and anyone who puts in a day's work and produces product. Labor is the root of wealth.

Commie!

;)

18 Obdicut  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:24:53am

re: #16 iossarian

Ha. You Marxist, you.

Or Smithian, even.

19 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:25:12am

I want a job creator not someone who cares more about lining his and other factcats' wallets.

20 AK-47%  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:25:32am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

They hit it on the head: supply side capitalism is not about lowering taxes or loosening regulations to allow investors to create more jobs, it is about lowering taxes and loosening regulations to allow investors to make more money.

21 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:26:12am

re: #15 Obdicut

Yep. Their job wasn't to create jobs. The 'job creators' the GOP touts are not, in fact, job creators. They are profit-seekers, and if job-destruction leads to profit, they will follow that path.

The real job creators are people like you, me, and anyone who puts in a day's work and produces product. Labor is the root of wealth.

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Abraham Lincoln

22 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:26:26am

re: #19 HappyWarrior

I want a job creator not someone who cares more about lining his and other factcats' wallets.

What's wrong with being a factcat? Knowledge is important.

23 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:26:57am

re: #21 celticdragon

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Abraham Lincoln

Commie! (another one)

;)

24 brennant  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:26:58am

re: #22 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

What's wrong with being a factcat? Knowledge is important.

The factcat's wallet is not filled with cash, but knowledge.

25 AK-47%  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:27:10am

re: #16 iossarian

Ha. You Marxist, you.

Just like that RINO, Abraham Lincoln:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

26 AK-47%  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:27:44am

I see youse beat me to it...

27 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:27:47am

re: #22 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

What's wrong with being a factcat? Knowledge is important.

Ha, thanks.

28 Tigger2  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:29:01am

America will not go down in defeat to any Country, America will go down in defeat to Corporate Greed.

29 brennant  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:29:14am

re: #24 brennant

The factcat's wallet is not filled with cash, but knowledge.

Your text to link...

30 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:30:08am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's former auto czar doesn't like it...

Ex-Obama adviser: Latest anti-Romney ad is 'unfair'

Wow.

Sounds like the system has become Satan.

I have no empathy for the devil, or for the details.

31 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:30:28am

re: #22 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

What's wrong with being a factcat? Knowledge is important.

The factcat hangs out with Jennyanydots and the Jellicles at night.

32 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:30:51am

re: #21 celticdragon

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Abraham Lincoln

Marxist! But yeah it's funny that is is unfair but Romney can go around lying and claiming that the president apologizes for America. Romney should own up to his record at Bain. This is a guy who cares more about his wealth than real leadership.

33 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:31:17am

re: #29 brennant

Your text to link...

Need to save that one for "I is FactCat, your argument irrelevant!"

34 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:31:46am

Factcat can haz cheezburger?

35 SidewaysQuark  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:32:09am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's former auto czar doesn't like it...

"Bain Capital's responsibility was not to create 100,000 jobs or some other number. It was to create profits for its investors," Rattner said.

BS, Rattner. A corporation's responsibility is neither of the above- it's to maintain a viable and productive company over the long term, not to "generate jobs" or "land a windfall". (Doing so, however, will generate jobs and land profits far and wide, something that quite clearly didn't happen, here.)

36 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:33:35am

re: #34 celticdragon

Factcat can haz cheezburger?

Donthinkso. Factcat knows what's in a cheezeburger.

37 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:35:15am

re: #35 SidewaysQuark

BS, Rattner. A corporation's responsibility is neither of the above- it's to maintain a viable and productive company over the long term, not to "generate jobs" or "land a windfall". (Doing so, however, will generate jobs and land profits far and wide, something that quite clearly didn't happen, here.)

Depends on the Corporate Mission Statement.

I don't think there is a standard "responsibility clause" that comes with Incorporation Papers.

38 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:35:23am

Heh I see my typo is turning into a mini-meme. Carry on. Anyhow, this is just another reason not to be impressed with Romney.

39 iossarian  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:37:32am

re: #35 SidewaysQuark

BS, Rattner. A corporation's responsibility is neither of the above- it's to maintain a viable and productive company over the long term, not to "generate jobs" or "land a windfall". (Doing so, however, will generate jobs and land profits far and wide, something that quite clearly didn't happen, here.)

Actually, a for-profit corporation is pretty much designed to make a profit for its shareholders, regardless of how that happens. And if the shareholders value short-term profit over long-term stability, then that is what the corporation will pursue.

Which is why capitalism alone is a shitty system for maintaining a stable society, because intense competition between individuals will tend to lead people to seek short-term advantages. Sometimes you need to regulate and eliminate some aspects of competition in order to maximize the common good.

40 gwangung  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:37:46am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's former auto czar doesn't like it...

Ex-Obama adviser: Latest anti-Romney ad is 'unfair'

If, in fact, Bain's job wasn't to create jobs, then it is ENTIRELY fair to point this out and that Romney's expertise is NOT in job creation, and what he does offer the country is not job creation.

41 Eventual Carrion  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:38:32am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's former auto czar doesn't like it...

Ex-Obama adviser: Latest anti-Romney ad is 'unfair'

It's legal so everything should be cool and people should stop bitching, kinda like abortions.

42 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:38:33am

re: #35 SidewaysQuark

BS, Rattner. A corporation's responsibility is neither of the above- it's to maintain a viable and productive company over the long term, not to "generate jobs" or "land a windfall". (Doing so, however, will generate jobs and land profits far and wide, something that quite clearly didn't happen, here.)

A society has the right to demand that entities within that society (like corporations) provide in same way for the good of that society. That is the standard certainly for many subsistance or agrarian societies where mutual cooperation is necessary for survival. We do not demand that...unfortunately.

43 Simply Sarah  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:38:45am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's former auto czar doesn't like it...

Ex-Obama adviser: Latest anti-Romney ad is 'unfair'

How is it unfair when Romney has been running around talking about how many jobs he created? Once he put it on the table, it became fair game.

44 AK-47%  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:39:06am

re: #39 iossarian

Sometimes you need to regulate and eliminate some aspects of competition in order to maximize the common good.

This is what the Tea Party calls "Socilism"

45 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:39:50am

re: #43 Simply Sarah

How is it unfair when Romney has been running around talking about how many jobs he created? Once he put it on the table, it became fair game.

The idea it isn't fair is a giant stinky red herring.

46 Randall Gross  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:40:41am

The Bain move on some of these companies is straight out of the Greed is Good! playbook.

47 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:40:43am

What I don't understand is how any, ANY, part of the economy can thrive when individuals do not have or will not use birth control?

Too many people = poverty.

Population Control will be a government issue if Individuals don't have the choice to do so themselves.

48 Simply Sarah  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:43:36am

re: #45 Cathartic Expression

The idea it isn't fair is a giant stinky red herring.

That's kind of my point. Would it have been unfair in a vacuum? I dunno. But this has been a talking point Mitt has hammered repeatedly, so calling him out on it is reasonable.

49 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:43:40am

Uh oh.

Romney has a JP Morgan problem (via Andrew Sullivan)

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

(I see Locker also wrote about it in the LGF pages)

50 The Mongoose  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:44:58am

It's impossible not to feel for the people in this video.

At the same time, the story is not reflective of the average outcome of private equity investing. While Bain may have profited from the deal, it is far more profitable for a private equity firm to make a struggling business successful and sell it, rather than close it down. The ad makes it seem as though Bain came in with the intention of closing the factory, which is extremely unlikely. It's just not how leveraged buyouts work. When they do work, previously uncompetitive businesses can be made productive and efficient...and yes, the investors make a great deal of money.

I do work in the financial industry so obviously I have some bias. But it's still a bit unfair to characterize this story as typical of a private equity buyout. Romney had also left Bain by the time the company went bankrupt. Still, it's the Obama campaign's job to hit Romney with this sort of thing an it's fair game. It will also be hard to counter because the upside of private equity is much more complicated than "people lost their jobs to this evil bloodsucking Wall Street firm."

51 jaunte  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:45:31am

It just gives you a warm feeling in the predatory capitalist region of your heart to know that some defenseless retired steelworker's pension helped pay for Mitt Romney's mansions.

52 Obdicut  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:46:34am

re: #50 The Mongoose

The particular way that Bain tends to operate-- by having the acquired company take on large amounts of debt in order to pay Bain back its investment, first and foremost-- is important to keep in mind. That hedges Bain from risks, but it does make it less likely that the company will survive profitably.

53 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:48:26am

re: #51 jaunte

It just gives you a warm feeling in the predatory capitalist region of your heart to know that some defenseless retired steelworker's pension helped pay for Mitt Romney's mansions.

That kind of thing will hurt him in the rust belt. My great uncle worked like forty years at Bethlehem Steel. Earned his pension, I imagine a guy like Romney would infuriate him and the guys he worked with which is why I suspect the Republicans like culture wars and echoing the lie that Obama wants to take away their guns.

54 jaunte  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:50:04am

"Here's what I know. Mitt Romney is a gracious, caring person who believes that every individual in this country, including people who are gay, deserve the dignity and respect that every American deserves."
-- Reince Priebus

"Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life. "
-- Bennett Marco

55 Shropshire_Slasher  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:51:23am

In NY, ironworkers pay into their own union pension. If the company goes banrupt, doesn't matter, union pension. I don't know how it works in other states, or if GFT steel employees were union.

56 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:52:33am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's former auto czar doesn't like it...

Ex-Obama adviser: Latest anti-Romney ad is 'unfair'

yeah another equity guy wants to defend equity guys?

SHOCKING

57 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:53:20am

re: #50 The Mongoose

At the same time, the story is not reflective of the average outcome of private equity investing. While Bain may have profited from the deal, it is far more profitable for a private equity firm to make a struggling business successful and sell it, rather than close it down. The ad makes it seem as though Bain came in with the intention of closing the factory, which is extremely unlikely. It's just not how leveraged buyouts work. When they do work, previously uncompetitive businesses can be made productive and efficient...and yes, the investors make a great deal of money.

Sure. You can also buy the company, dump a buch of employees and raise short term profitability, force the company to take out loans based on the increased stock price and then have those loans paid back to you as dividends and then sell the company quick before it crashes. You walk away with profit and the target has been gutted.

But a closer examination of the prospectus paints a different picture of Bain's operation. Under Romney's leadership, Bain became one of the nation's top leveraged-buyout firms, helping lead a trend in which companies were acquired using debt often pledged against their own assets or earnings.

Bain expanded many of the companies it acquired. But like other leveraged-buyout firms, Romney and his team also maximized returns by firing workers, seeking government subsidies, and flipping companies quickly for large profits. Sometimes Bain investors gained even when companies slid into bankruptcy

58 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:53:25am

re: #50 The Mongoose

I didn't see the part where anyone characterized this as a typical equity buyout. Seems to me that it's a very specific critique of the practices of the company Mitt Romney led, and has not much all to do with equity buyouts in general.

59 Eventual Carrion  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:53:35am

re: #42 celticdragon

A society has the right to demand that entities within that society (like corporations) provide in same way for the good of that society. That is the standard certainly for many subsistance or agrarian societies where mutual cooperation is necessary for survival. We do not demand that...unfortunately.

Yes, and what do we do to a "person" who becomes detrimental or dangerous to society?

60 The Mongoose  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:54:33am

re: #52 Obdicut

That is how LBO (Leveraged Buy Outs) work. The debt is the leverage. It's a double-edged sword to be sure...when it works, the company is forced to meet regular debt payments and becomes much more lean and competitive as a result. When it doesn't work, the company runs out of cash and fails.
It's a high-risk, high-reward play. But many companies bought this way are struggling to begin with.

61 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:55:13am

re: #59 RayFerd

Yes, and what do we do to a "person" who becomes detrimental or dangerous to society?

Interesting thought.

62 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:55:24am

Stupid cold Dutch weather. At least its warm here in Paris.

63 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:55:44am

We're a strange country. Same people who think what Romney did was great are the same ones that you hear whining about "greedy" union workers. No disconnect whatsoever there eh?

64 iossarian  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:56:45am

re: #63 HappyWarrior

We're a strange country. Same people who think what Romney did was great are the same ones that you hear whining about "greedy" union workers. No disconnect whatsoever there eh?

Greed is only good if you're already loaded.

If you're poor, organizing yourself to earn more money is un-American.

65 jaunte  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:57:53am

The underfunded GST pension plan was not an accident, it was Bain management deciding to let taxpayers hold the bag.

...a federal government insurance agency had to pony up $44 million to bail out the company's underfunded pension plan. Nevertheless, Bain profited on the deal, receiving $12 million on its $8 million initial investment and at least $4.5 million in consulting fees.
...
...records show that the mill's Bain-backed management was confronted several times about the fund's shortfall, which, in the end, required an infusion of funds from the federal Pension Benefits Guarantee Corp.
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

66 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:58:00am

re: #60 The Mongoose

That is how LBO (Leveraged Buy Outs) work. The debt is the leverage. It's a double-edged sword to be sure...when it works, the company is forced to meet regular debt payments and becomes much more lean and competitive as a result. When it doesn't work, the company runs out of cash and fails.
It's a high-risk, high-reward play. But many companies bought this way are struggling to begin with.

Where is the risk?

Leveraged buyouts allow investors to purchase businesses with the acquisition funded sometimes by significant amounts of debt. To critics, these leveraged deals can make acquired companies more vulnerable to economic downturns, leading to a greater likelihood of bankruptcy and job cuts. At the same time, the deals sometimes introduce discipline to firms and even whole industries that need it.

Either way, Bain investors typically profited.


It sure doesn't look like Bain was risking anything.

67 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:58:21am

re: #64 iossarian

Greed is only good if you're already loaded.

If you're poor, organizing yourself to earn more money is un-American.

I was going to mention welfare too. Really, the double standards are stupid but I expect little reason from people who are willfully blind to the importance of unions in the economy.

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:58:42am

re: #63 HappyWarrior

We're a strange country. Same people who think what Romney did was great are the same ones that you hear whining about "greedy" union workers. No disconnect whatsoever there eh?

Tribalism

they identify with the "winner", the rich puppetmaster, and not the "loser", the actual working people

69 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:59:02am

re: #63 HappyWarrior

We're a strange country. Same people who think what Romney did was great are the same ones that you hear whining about "greedy" union workers. No disconnect whatsoever there eh?

A culture built around idolitry.

70 The Mongoose  Mon, May 14, 2012 10:59:57am

re: #58 Charles Johnson

Fair. I just see it as information asymmetry...it's really easy to bash Bain or any other LBO investor when a deal goes wrong. It's harder to show the benefits to workers and the economy when such deals go right. But that will be the job of the Romney campaign...though I think it's more likely they'll just ignore it and attack Obama's record in return.

Of course, if they're feeling particularly stupid, they could just talk about taking rights away from half the voters in America. That's a winning strategy, right? Sigh. At least with this ad, we're talking about jobs and the economy.

71 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:01:43am

re: #69 Gus

A culture built around idolitry.

I have made that point before. We have perverted Christianity into a blasphemous (imho) God favors the rich and the poor get what they deserve ethos that has absolutely nothing to do with anything you will read in the Gospels or various epistles.

72 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:01:52am

re: #52 Obdicut

The particular way that Bain tends to operate-- by having the acquired company take on large amounts of debt in order to pay Bain back its investment, first and foremost-- is important to keep in mind. That hedges Bain from risks, but it does make it less likely that the company will survive profitably.

The meme is that Bain acquired companies that were failing and instead of trying to salvage the company, save/create jobs and make it profitable, Bain concerned it self with using the company to play creative accounting and walk away with the cash.

Yes? Am I getting this right?

Because the Capitalists are insisting that buying a struggling company and salvaging it means saving jobs and creating a viable company in some form in some place out of the wreckage that was originally purchased. Thus disgruntled employees are the ones that were re-organized OUT because they wouldn't retrain or adapt to the changes.

73 Obdicut  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:02:16am

re: #60 The Mongoose

That is how LBO (Leveraged Buy Outs) work. The debt is the leverage.

It is not always the case that companies are then forced to acquire more debt to pay back those that leveraged the initial debt, though.

It's a double-edged sword to be sure...

There are more than those two options. There is also the option that the company has to reduce force by a large amount in order to make the debt payments, doesn't run out of cash, but becomes less competitive because with a smaller workforce and the debt obligations keeping it conservative, it cannot position itself to take advantage of anything new in the market.

And there are other options besides.

74 Interesting Times  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:03:38am
75 Kragar  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:03:48am

Conservative Wisconsin Justices Remove Ethics Offical After He Charges Three Of Them With Ethics Violations

In recent years, three of the Wisconsin Supreme Court’s four conservatives were charged with ethics violations by the Wisconsin Judicial Commission — Justice Annette Ziegler for presiding over cases involving a bank where her husband was a director, Justice Michael Gableman for running a misleading campaign ad, and Justice David Prosser for allegedly grabbing a fellow justice by the neck. In the wake of these charges, all four of the court’s conservatives voted in a party-line vote not to reappoint the chair of this commission:

But hey, its not their job to consider ethics and what they did was legal.

76 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:05:29am

re: #75 Kragar

Conservative Wisconsin Justices Remove Ethics Offical After He Charges Three Of Them With Ethics Violations

But hey, its not their job to consider ethics and what they did was legal.

Over at Balloon Juice, that is called IOKIYAAR.

It's Okay If You Are A Republican.

77 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:05:46am

Obama ad depicts Mitt Romney as job-killing 'vampire.' Over the top?

Obama's new 'Steel' ad picks up themes of vanquished Romney GOP rivals – that Mitt Romney is not a job creator but a job killer. But Romney was no longer with Bain Capital when the Kansas City steel mill went under.

I'm almost certainly going to vote for Obama but that doesn't mean I have to believe everything his team puts in an ad.

78 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:05:57am

re: #71 celticdragon

I have made that point before. We have perverted Christianity into a blasphemous (imho) God favors the rich and the poor get what they deserve ethos that has absolutely nothing to do with anything you will read in the Gospels or various epistles.

I was thinking the same, we've deluded ourselves into think wealth and personal character are somehow linked. Not saying one can't be a good person and be rich. Quite the contrary, I think that linking wealth with character is as dangerous as the far left view that wealth means you're a bad person.

79 jaunte  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:06:46am

Bain bought the company in 1993 and took $36 million out the next year.

Bain and its partners decided to buy the mill for $75 million. Bain put up about $8 million to gain majority control of the company, renamed GS Technologies Inc. GE Capital, former Armco executives and Leggett & Platt, a major customer for the mill's wire rods, chipped in the rest of the equity.

As part of the deal, Armco agreed to cover employee pension obligations if the plant closed within five years -- a $120 million liability, according to the Kansas City Business Journal.
...
Bain got its money back quickly. The new company issued $125 million in bonds and paid Bain a $36.1 million dividend in 1994.

"Paying distributions with debt is not uncommon," said Campbell Harvey, a finance professor at Duke University. "The only thing that strikes me as a bit unusual is the size of the dividend. There would be logic in them saving some cash for a downturn."
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

80 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:06:55am

re: #71 celticdragon

I have made that point before. We have perverted Christianity into a blasphemous (imho) God favors the rich and the poor get what they deserve ethos that has absolutely nothing to do with anything you will read in the Gospels or various epistles.

I was going to add more but just got up from a nap. But yes I would agree. I also see it as idolitry in which people like Romney and other venture capitalists become the idols for which the masses to worship upon. The rewards are wealth rather than eternal happiness. The masses then worship these business "leaders" at the expense of the individual or individuals (i.e. the masses or our fellow citizens). Those that oppose these predatory idols are seen as apostates to the God of wealth. This is done even by the very same class or group of people that fall victims to this predation.

81 Interesting Times  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:07:02am
82 Varek Raith  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:07:35am

re: #81 Interesting Times

[Embedded content]

[Link: instantrimshot.com...]

83 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:08:52am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Obama ad depicts Mitt Romney as job-killing 'vampire.' Over the top?

I'm almost certainly going to vote for Obama but that doesn't mean I have to believe everything his team puts in an ad.

Nor should you. Do your own research on this. Bain did save some companies, and savaged others after making millions. The bottom line is that Bain made money. Job creation or value to America was entirely coincidental at best.

84 wrenchwench  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:09:03am

It's one thing to see a steel plant close because it's not competitive in a global market. It's quite another to see the men who worked long careers there lose their pensions.

I toured a steel mill in 1989 with Mr. w, who had worked there summers during high school and briefly after he graduated. He joined the Navy to ensure he didn't end up with a long career there. His brother-in-law took us around the place. The next day his co-workers asked him "Who was that kid you were touring around yesterday?" They were blown away when he told them it was their former co-worker, who they remembered, and who was the same age they were. They were all old men, made so by their work, and saw Mr. w as a "kid". The brother-in-law died a few years ago. Mr. w is not as well-off, but he's healthy.

85 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:11:29am

Vulture capitalism would require its prey to be dead before it has its meal while vampire capitalism instead sucks the life out of a living company. Drop by drop; man by man; and women by women. All for the cause of feeding the few vampires in our society that earns its wealth from the host of the labor done by our fellow citizens!

//Pass the smelling salts.

86 bluecheese  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:12:26am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Obama ad depicts Mitt Romney as job-killing 'vampire.' Over the top?

I'm almost certainly going to vote for Obama but that doesn't mean I have to believe everything his team puts in an ad.

So because Romney wasn't at Bain when the Mill went under, that means that he doesn't support what they did, or has anything to do with their business model eh?

So what if he wasn't there. He aint gonna say what Bain shoulda done different.

Ah, I see, Obama is a lair. Both sides. That's your point right?

87 freetoken  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:12:27am

re: #71 celticdragon

... We have perverted Christianity into a blasphemous (imho) ...

This morning I've been intending to put up a Page tackling mythic views of religious figures - but am finding it more work that I'm willing to put into it at the moment - so coming across your post might motivate to get moving on it.

Put succinctly - Myths about Jesus are as useful for the American liberal as for the religious right.

88 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:13:19am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Obama ad depicts Mitt Romney as job-killing 'vampire.' Over the top?

I'm almost certainly going to vote for Obama but that doesn't mean I have to believe everything his team puts in an ad.

What plausible scenario will make you not vote for Obama?

89 Varek Raith  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:13:47am

re: #88 May Day! May Day!

What plausible scenario will make you not vote for Obama?

OWS.

90 Lidane  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:14:13am

re: #88 May Day! May Day!

What plausible scenario will make you not vote for Obama?

Duh. Obama leading an OWS rally. What else?

91 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:14:19am

re: #87 freetoken

This morning I've been intending to put up a Page tackling mythic views of religious figures - but am finding it more work that I'm willing to put into it at the moment - so coming across your post might motivate to get moving on it.

Put succinctly - Myths about Jesus are as useful for the American liberal as for the religious right.

Would be thrilled to read your page.

92 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:14:26am

re: #88 May Day! May Day!

What plausible scenario will make you not vote for Obama?

The end of body cavity searches at airports.

//

93 jaunte  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:15:18am

My management consultancy will run your company into the ground for a lot less than $900,000 a year.

94 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:15:26am

re: #89 Varek Raith

OWS.

Don't waterboard taze me pepper spray me bro'!

95 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:15:55am

re: #80 Gus

I was going to add more but just got up from a nap. But yes I would agree. I also see it as idolitry in which people like Romney and other venture capitalists become the idols for which the masses to worship upon. The rewards are wealth rather than eternal happiness. The masses then worship these business "leaders" at the expense of the individual or individuals (i.e. the masses or our fellow citizens). Those that oppose these predatory idols are seen as apostates to the God of wealth. This is done even by the very same class or group of people that fall victims to this predation.

The whole bootstrapping I did it by myself by-God rugged American individualist meme is real powerful stuff and very easy to sell here...hence the tendency for people to want to identify with the top one percenters. It is also largely a myth. It makes great movies when the poor emigrant gets off the tramp steamer and hits the big time with a little pluck and hard work...but the odds of that happening are about the same as hitting the lottery. Pluck and a good work ethic got you nowhere but the Bowery and a shitty 12 hour a day job in a boiler room doing "hunky work".

Who you know (your social class) and what school you go to (does anybody think Obama would be President if he had gone to a state college in Hawaii?)are far better determiners of future success then any other metric.

96 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:17:28am

re: #94 Gus

Don't waterboard taze me pepper spray me bro'!

You know what arguments the state channels use against the makeshift opposition camp at Chistyje Prudy in Moscow?

Yes, you do. ;)

97 Varek Raith  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:17:41am

re: #95 celticdragon

How goes the study of rocks???
:)

98 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:18:09am

re: #96 May Day! May Day!

You know what arguments the state channels use against the makeshift opposition camp at Chistyje Prudy in Moscow?

Yes, you do. ;)

Communists or counter-culture hippies?

99 Lidane  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:18:40am

Cue the bleating from the "originalist" camp:

Obama: Constitution Provides For ‘Constant Forward Movement’

100 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:18:45am

re: #98 Gus

Communists or counter-culture hippies?

People who are not happy about the eternal reign of Pu.

101 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:19:16am

re: #95 celticdragon

It's like magical thinking for the masses. The lottery ticket they'll someday win. Or seeing themselves become a Mitt Romney as though by magic. "Greed is good" well someday that might be me!

102 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:19:47am

re: #100 May Day! May Day!

People who are not happy about the eternal reign of Pu.

What are they calling them?

103 Varek Raith  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:20:24am

re: #102 Gus

What are they calling them?

Poo on Pu.

104 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:21:03am

re: #97 Varek Raith

How goes the study of rocks???
:)

A stony silence ensued...
:D

105 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:21:18am

I have to go to the dentist.

Have a great day all!

106 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:22:15am

re: #102 Gus

What are they calling them?

Yeah, well, apparently the camp is "unsanitary", they "poop", etc. I think the agitprop has not yet gone the "rapey stabby" route, but they're getting there. Expect brutal police action soon.

107 jaunte  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:24:12am

re: #99 Lidane

Cue the bleating from the "originalist" camp:

Obama: Constitution Provides For ‘Constant Forward Movement’

"Constitutional provisions do not change, but their operation extends to new matters, as the modes of business and the habits of life of the people vary with each succeeding generation."
[Link: caselaw.lp.findlaw.com...]

108 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:24:15am

Brought to you by Newt Gingrich.

109 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:24:48am

re: #97 Varek Raith

How goes the study of rocks???
:)

Actually, I will be putting in for grad school this fall either at NC State or UNC Chapel Hill. I may try to do substitute teaching in the meantime.

110 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:25:29am

re: #104 celticdragon

A stony silence ensued...
:D

Followed by a sedimental journey.
:D

111 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:25:33am

re: #106 May Day! May Day!

Yeah, well, apparently the camp is "unsanitary", they "poop", etc. I think the agitprop has not yet gone the "rapey stabby" route, but they're getting there. Expect brutal police action soon.

Right wing "logical" conclusions. If it's similar to American OWS protests it must be OWS! Not just right wing but authoritarians and their lap dogs. They're already in love with Putin biceps in the USA as well as the Likudnics in Israel.

112 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:26:03am

re: #99 Lidane

Cue the bleating from the "originalist" camp:

Obama: Constitution Provides For ‘Constant Forward Movement’

Amendments 13-15 and 19 support that. Plus, the Bill of Rights wasn't part of the original constitution. Orginalism is a sham, always has been. It's worse than "judicial activism" because it's an attempt to superimpose your views and claim they were the founders.

113 wrenchwench  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:26:14am

re: #104 celticdragon

A stony silence ensued...
:D

You rock!

114 Kragar  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:26:39am

re: #113 wrenchwench

You rock!

Its purely a tectonic relationship

115 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:27:18am

re: #111 Gus

Funny thing is I do expect Republicans to back the opposition (which I certainly support in spirit). They will do it with straight face too.

116 wrenchwench  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:27:24am

re: #112 HappyWarrior

Orginalism is a sham, always has been.

That needs to rotate.

117 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:27:26am

re: #114 Kragar

Its purely a tectonic relationship

That was gneiss of you.

118 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:27:36am

If you protest predatory capitalism therefore you hate all capitalism and can only conclude that you are indeed a Communist!!!

119 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:27:37am

re: #114 Kragar

Its purely a tectonic relationship

Those develop quite slowly I hear. With occasional sudden jolts that make it seem like the world moves.

120 jaunte  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:27:59am

The thread has been gravely uplifted.

121 lawhawk  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:28:19am

re: #99 Lidane

Yet even the originalists would have to concede that the Constitution was embued with the ability to be modified over time (amendment procedures) and the Supreme Court from its earliest years of operation took on the mantle of providing judicial review.

It was never meant to be a static document - the need to set forth the Bill of Rights immediately after the Constitution was written shows that original intent was evolving from the outset.

122 Mich-again  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:28:21am

re: #85 Gus

Vulture capitalism would require its prey to be dead before it has its meal while vampire capitalism instead sucks the life out of a living company. Drop by drop; man by man; and women by women. All for the cause of feeding the few vampires in our society that earns its wealth from the host of the labor done by our fellow citizens!

Simpler explanation for the Teabillies..
Vulture Capitalism is garbage picking. Vampire Capitalism is looking for bargains at a garage sale.

123 wrenchwench  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:28:32am

re: #114 Kragar

Its purely a tectonic relationship

Don't give me that schist.

124 AK-47%  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:28:52am

re: #120 jaunte

The thread has been gravely uplifted.

Just horsting around

125 jaunte  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:28:53am

re: #118 Gus

Please, no Engels quotes.

126 lawhawk  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:28:53am

re: #123 wrenchwench

Be gneiss.

127 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:28:57am

re: #120 jaunte

The thread has been gravely uplifted.

From what I hear, schist happens.

128 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:29:00am

re: #120 jaunte

The thread has been gravely uplifted.

I'm just waiting for the schism.

//

129 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:29:00am

re: #114 Kragar

Its purely a tectonic relationship

Not if you plan on Cummingtonite...

130 blueraven  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:29:01am

re: #11 NJDhockeyfan

Obama's former auto czar doesn't like it...

Ex-Obama adviser: Latest anti-Romney ad is 'unfair'

That's all well and fine, but Romney is campaigning that he knows how to create jobs. Where is the evidence of that? Not in private business or in his stint as governor does he have a record of doing so.
If he wants to use his record as a business man, it is fair game to go after that.

132 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:29:34am

re: #129 celticdragon

Not if you plan on Cummingtonite...

You take a lot for granite.

133 freetoken  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:30:07am

re: #91 May Day! May Day!

Would be thrilled to read your page.

Thank you - you keep encouraging me but my lazy ass remains lazy.

It can't be done in one Page.

Literally - I've run out of the 35,000 character allotment.

My primal thesis is simply this - that humans are irrevocably religious (and that this is due to our evolutionary advantage of language).

A more derived hypothesis is that the "Christ" which directs Obama to now embrace gay marriage is no less mythical than Mullah Molher's or Harold Camping's "Jesus".

That there is a never-ending industry (that even Bain Capital cannot destroy) in marketing Jesus™ whether one is pushing belief (e.g. Mohler), non-belief (e.g. PZ Meyers) or partial belief (e.g. Ehrman.)

This human industry spans cultures, and where Jesus™ won't do there is always Mohammed™ or Krishna or whatever.

Spencer wants to be as successful with a spiel about a non-existing Mohammed as say Dawkins is with a non-existing Jesus. While I think between the two Dawkins is the more nobler, both are in the business of culture wars. But that is a digression...

Back to the point - Jesus can be anything you want. In the case of the progressive religious person Jesus is the great liberator from powerful and oppressive. To the Wallbuilders mindset Jesus is the coming Judge with blood dripping from his garments.

And yet nearly everything most people believe about the big figures of human religion are mythic, as the term your friend Carrier might use. This is by design, as that allows us humans to then make these figures into whatever we need them for, today, in our present situation.

In the case of President Obama the "Christ" compels him now to not discriminate against gay people. Yet that is certainly a mythic Christ.

And so much more can be said (and yes, with links and quotes and all sorts of bookish stuff.) My fear is that it will simply take a great deal of work to put together properly and yet will find few eyes consuming the material. I'd rather not waste my time.

134 jaunte  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:30:19am

re: #128 Gus

If I see a way out I'm graben it.

135 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:30:25am

How to change a geology punfest into a boob punfest?

Cleavage.

136 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:30:43am

re: #88 May Day! May Day!

What plausible scenario will make you not vote for Obama?

he pulls off his mask and reveals he's Ronald Reagan Jesse Helms Strom Thurmond Sarah Palin

137 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:30:43am

As proud American I demand we pay higher prices for goods! We should pay higher interest rates for loans and credit cards! Greed is good!

//

138 Varek Raith  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:30:52am

*Shakes head*

139 Kragar  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:31:28am

re: #135 Cathartic Expression

How to change a geology punfest into a boob punfest?

Cleavage.

The Grand Teton

140 AK-47%  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:31:32am

re: #135 Cathartic Expression

How to change a geology punfest into a boob punfest?

Cleavage.

Me, I like big buttes

141 The Mongoose  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:31:42am

re: #83 celticdragon

Do your own research on this. Bain did save some companies, and savaged others after making millions. The bottom line is that Bain made money. Job creation or value to America was entirely coincidental at best.

Job creation is nearly always a side effect of someone's desire to make money. Nothing special about Bain in that respect.

142 Mich-again  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:31:46am

re: #131 Varek Raith

Rep. Ron Paul of Texas to end active campaigning in GOP presidential race but will continue efforts to win delegates.

The Paulbots bood Mitt's son off the stage at a GOP gathering in Arizona over the weekend. Getting restless they are.

143 lawhawk  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:31:56am

re: #139 Kragar

They're real... and they're spectacular.

144 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:31:58am

re: #138 Varek Raith

*Shakes head*

If you shake it more than three times you'll be accused of playing with it.

145 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:32:49am

re: #143 lawhawk

They're real... and they're spectacular.

A natural firmament.

146 Kragar  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:33:05am

re: #144 Cathartic Expression

If you shake it more than three times you'll be accused of playing with it.

Image: what-happens-in-hogwarts-stays-at-hogwarts.jpg

147 wrenchwench  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:33:12am

re: #142 Mich-again

The Paulbots bood Mitt's son off the stage at a GOP gathering in Arizona over the weekend. Getting restless they are.

You can count on AZ to turn it up to eleventy.

148 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:33:25am

Speaking of weird. A Russia Today Tweet just popped up:

149 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:33:46am

re: #86 bluecheese

So because Romney wasn't at Bain when the Mill went under, that means that he doesn't support what they did, or has anything to do with their business model eh?

So what if he wasn't there. He aint gonna say what Bain shoulda done different.

Ah, I see, Obama is a lair. Both sides. That's your point right?

I don't think it'd a particularly honest ad. It might be politically effective but I'm not impressed.

150 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:34:19am

re: #144 Cathartic Expression

If you shake it more than three times you'll be accused of playing with it.

Stop touching your orogeny zone...

151 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:34:26am

re: #141 The Mongoose

Job creation is nearly always a side effect of someone's desire to make money. Nothing special about Bain in that respect.

You must not work in a very fulfilling business :)


Making money/job creation is a side effect of having expertise and doing fulfilling work in my experience

152 jamesfirecat  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:34:32am

re: #141 The Mongoose

Job creation is nearly always a side effect of someone's desire to make money. Nothing special about Bain in that respect.

Some people actually manage to create jobs and get wealthy at the same time like Steve Jobs/Bill Gates, Mr. Romney, not so much....

153 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:34:34am

re: #149 Killgore Trout

I don't think it'd a particularly honest ad. It might be politically effective but I'm not impressed.

What's the big deal KT. I mean we start the Iraq War on total bullshit lies. And we supported it at the time.

154 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:34:47am

re: #135 Cathartic Expression

How to change a geology punfest into a boob punfest?

Cleavage.

How to change a discussion of feminism, environmentalism and poverty into boob talk?

155 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:34:50am

re: #153 Gus

What's the big deal KT. I mean we start the Iraq War on total bullshit lies. And we supported it at the time.

//

Oops.

//

156 SidewaysQuark  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:35:36am

re: #39 iossarian

Actually, a for-profit corporation is pretty much designed to make a profit for its shareholders, regardless of how that happens. And if the shareholders value short-term profit over long-term stability, then that is what the corporation will pursue.

Which is why capitalism alone is a shitty system for maintaining a stable society, because intense competition between individuals will tend to lead people to seek short-term advantages. Sometimes you need to regulate and eliminate some aspects of competition in order to maximize the common good.

You hit the nail on the head - that was actually the point I was trying (less successfully than you) to make.

If corporations "are people too", we need to start setting up an impetus for them to live successful, long lives rather than burning out like drug-addled rock stars. (Not that my record collection has anything against the latter....)

157 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:35:36am

When I ask kids what they want to grow up and do for a living, they always say I WANT TO MAKE MONEY I DON'T CARE WHAT I DO lol republicans

158 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:36:09am

Former Obama Adviser Criticizes New Obama Ad

159 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:36:58am

Better get the ointment.

160 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:37:24am

re: #159 Gus

Better get the ointment.

UNGUENT! UNGUENT!

161 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:37:42am

re: #158 Killgore Trout

Former Obama Adviser Criticizes New Obama Ad

[Embedded content]

Straight from the GOPICYMI's channel.

162 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:39:06am

re: #160 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

UNGUENT! UNGUENT!

Better get it blessed by the Adeptus Mechanicus or the machine spirit will be offended...

163 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:39:21am

I fear the cult of Ron Paul will be soon the cult of Rand. Same nonsense, same Paul crap masquerading as liberty.

164 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:39:42am

re: #161 Gus

Straight from the GOPICYMI's channel.

Oh man like, I like totally trust equity guys when they defend other equity guys?

They're so totally objective like AWMAHGAWD!

165 The Mongoose  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:39:55am

re: #152 jamesfirecat

Some people actually manage to create jobs and get wealthy at the same time like Steve Jobs/Bill Gates, Mr. Romney, not so much...

I do not believe for a moment that Mr. Jobs or Mr. Gates founded their respective companies with the specific goal of creating jobs for thousands of strangers. That this occurred is the happy result of their desire to succeed in a free-market economy.

166 freetoken  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:40:24am

re: #158 Killgore Trout

That's a pretty mild "criticize". The guy is simply saying it was all done "by the rules".

That does not address whether the "rules" are right, moral, fair, or even just plain wise.

167 SidewaysQuark  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:40:40am

re: #163 HappyWarrior

I fear the cult of Ron Paul will be soon the cult of Rand. Same nonsense, same Paul crap masquerading as liberty.

I keep saying, give them their "Gult's Gulch" and then use the results to drown out their arguments when they come lobbying for a bailout.

(Tongue-in-cheek here, of course)

168 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:41:02am

re: #164 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

Oh man like, I like totally trust equity guys when they defend other equity guys?

They're so totally objective like AWMAHGAWD!

I don't know what his trip is but this an election year. I have no room for pseudo-impartiality. Especially when that pseudo-impartiality sound more like right-wing or Republican talking points.

169 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:41:16am

re: #163 HappyWarrior

I fear the cult of Ron Paul will be soon the cult of Rand. Same nonsense, same Paul crap masquerading as liberty.

We'll see what happens after Mitt loses the election. The Tea Party is over with and Rand will probably be as irrelevant as his father was.

170 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:41:20am

America: where the country was almost destroyed by the banking system HIPPIES ARE TO BLAME

171 Kragar  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:41:21am

Why Rattner’s Attack On Obama Is Actually Bad For Romney: ‘Bain Capital’s Responsibility Was Never To Create…Jobs’

By acknowledging that “Bain Capital’s responsibility was never to create…jobs,” Ratter is unwittingly endorsing the entire message of the Obama campaign ads, which is that Bain prioritized profits for it wealthy owners over jobs and pensions for its middle-class employees.

Prioritizing profit above all else is, of course, fine for someone running a private equity firm. But it’s not likely to win over voters in the fall, so Romney has disingenuously tried to paint Bain as something other than the profit-hungry corporation that it was. The Obama campaign was merely pointing out the human consequences.

Meanwhile, Rattner, who was embroiled in scandal relating to an alleged kickback scheme involving New York state’s pension fund, and paid tens of millions of dollars in settlements after the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and New York state filed lawsuits, may not be the best arbiter of fairness in high finance.

172 Simply Sarah  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:41:27am

re: #163 HappyWarrior

I fear the cult of Ron Paul will be soon the cult of Rand. Same nonsense, same Paul crap masquerading as liberty.

And they'll completely ignore his well documented and clear racism, homophobia, and misogyny. He's for FREEDOM!!!!!!1 regardless of what his actual positions are.

173 SidewaysQuark  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:41:58am

re: #165 The Mongoose

I do not believe for a moment that Mr. Jobs or Mr. Gates founded their respective companies with the specific goal of creating jobs for thousands of strangers. That this occurred is the happy result of their desire to succeed in a free-market economy.

It also occurred as a result of the fact that they are responsible human beings and business owners, which furthers the point that there to be regulation of the actual scoundrels out there, rather than a dichotomous absolute praise or condemnation of capitalism.

174 blueraven  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:42:16am

re: #149 Killgore Trout

I don't think it'd a particularly honest ad. It might be politically effective but I'm not impressed.

Romney was CEO of Bain from 1984-1999

Bain, in essence, privatized the reward from its GST stake — by taking the dividend — but socialized the risk by transferring it to bond holders and firms paying premiums to the PBGC.

Read more here: [Link: midwestdemocracy.com...]

Do you honestly think he has nothing to do with this?

175 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:42:34am

re: #166 freetoken

That's a pretty mild "criticize". The guy is simply saying it was all done "by the rules".

That does not address whether the "rules" are right, moral, fair, or even just plain wise.

Same argument as D_F the other day. It was legal.

No attempt to address the ethics or morality of the situation. And from these are in step with the party that claims the cloak of moral authority at every turn.

176 Lidane  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:42:56am

re: #131 Varek Raith

Rep. Ron Paul of Texas to end active campaigning in GOP presidential race but will continue efforts to win delegates.

Not surprising. The Paulbots have been working hard on the delegate front for a while now. They're determined to have a floor fight at the convention instead of a coronation for Mittens.

177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:42:58am

re: #175 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Same argument as D_F the other day. It was legal.

No attempt to address the ethics or morality of the situation. And from these are in step with the party that claims the cloak of moral authority at every turn.

Slavery was legal

178 Mich-again  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:42:58am

My problem with the ad is that story would be best used as a counterpunch, not as a jab. It will be too easy to come up with another story about a different place where Mitt rode in on his white horse to save the day and make this ad out to be just a fluke in Bain's stellar record. You can find an anecdote to make any point you want to make.

179 Charles Johnson  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:43:10am

re: #158 Killgore Trout

His criticism of the ad seems to be that Bain did nothing illegal, and their whole purpose is to make money for investors.

But everybody knows what happened to GST Steel was completely legal, and everybody knows it made money for Bain.

What the former Obama adviser is doing is defending the practice of predatory buyouts. He actually ends up reinforcing the point of the ad.

180 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:43:24am

re: #175 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Same argument as D_F the other day. It was legal.

No attempt to address the ethics or morality of the situation. And from these are in step with the party that claims the cloak of moral authority at every turn.

and so was raping one's wife once upon a time not so long ago

181 dragonath  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:43:43am

re: #158 Killgore Trout

Those glasses make him look like Bunsen from the Muppets

182 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:44:05am

re: #174 blueraven

Romney was CEO of Bain from 1984-1999

Read more here: [Link: midwestdemocracy.com...]

Do you honestly think he has nothing to do with this?

trooooll jooob

183 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:44:27am

re: #169 Killgore Trout

We'll see what happens after Mitt loses the election. The Tea Party is over with and Rand will probably be as irrelevant as his father was.

Ron had the cult in 2008 long before the The TP took off.

184 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:44:32am

re: #168 Gus

I don't know what his trip is but this an election year. I have no room for pseudo-impartiality. Especially when that pseudo-impartiality sound more like right-wing or Republican talking points.

trrrooollll jooooooobbb

185 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:44:39am

re: #177 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

Slavery was legal

And profitable.

186 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:44:54am

re: #178 Mich-again

My problem with the ad is that story would be best used as a counterpunch, not as a jab. It will be too easy to come up with another story about a different place where Mitt rode in on his white horse to save the day and make this ad out to be just a fluke in Bain's stellar record. You can find an anecdote to make any point you want to make.

I agree. It's early in the election so I don't expect team Obama to roll out their best material yet. I think it's a weak ad and leaves Mitt too much room to respond.

187 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:44:57am

Compare:

Stop hating on capitalism! :(

188 freetoken  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:45:09am

re: #175 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Yes, it's the It's-Not-A-Felony defense.

189 jamesfirecat  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:45:25am

re: #165 The Mongoose

I do not believe for a moment that Mr. Jobs or Mr. Gates founded their respective companies with the specific goal of creating jobs for thousands of strangers. That this occurred is the happy result of their desire to succeed in a free-market economy.

Yep, it's a shame that Mitt Romney couldn't leverage his own desire to succeed in a free market economy into a force that created jobs and useful products.

190 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:45:56am

re: #185 celticdragon

And profitable.

WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST MAKING MONEY


AM YOU AN OWS?

191 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:46:02am

Freaking Mark Halperin and Steve Rattner. Hahahahahahahaha! Give me a break.

192 Mich-again  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:46:13am

re: #169 Killgore Trout

We'll see what happens after Mitt loses the election. The Tea Party is over with and Rand will probably be as irrelevant as his father was.

I actually think Rand Paul is more of a nut than his old man.

193 wrenchwench  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:46:16am

re: #163 HappyWarrior

I fear the cult of Ron Paul will be soon the cult of Rand. Same nonsense, same Paul crap masquerading as liberty.

And Rand has offspring too....

194 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:46:30am

re: #173 SidewaysQuark

It also occurred as a result of the fact that they are responsible human beings and business owners, which furthers the point that there needs to be regulation of the actual scoundrels out there, rather than condemnation of capitalism.

I'm not sure anyone here condemns capitalism, but you'll likely find quite a few of us are in favour of an ethical capitalism that takes into consideration conditions beyond profit on into environmentalism and social safety nets.

Human nature pretty much dictates we impose limits and regulations.

195 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:46:38am

re: #191 Gus

Freaking Mark Halperin and Steve Rattner. Hahahahahahahaha! Give me a break.

document the atrocities!

196 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:47:32am

re: #183 HappyWarrior

Ron had the cult in 2008 long before the The TP took off.

True but he never pulled more than 2-3% in any real world poll. Each party has their fringe loons who run for president every year. I guess they fill up room on the stage during the debates but they're pretty pointless.

197 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:47:37am

re: #88 May Day! May Day!

What plausible scenario will make you not vote for Obama?

Hello?

198 iossarian  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:48:26am

re: #197 May Day! May Day!

Hello?

"I am extremely unlikely to do this incredibly dumb and damaging thing. But I might do it. Not ruling it out."

199 Kragar  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:48:36am

A lot of truly horrendous things have been legal at various points in our history. That never meant they were right.

200 celticdragon  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:48:45am

re: #189 jamesfirecat

Yep, it's a shame that Mitt Romney couldn't leverage his own desire to succeed in a free market economy into a force that created jobs and useful products.

That is what Chinese sweatshops with unlimited working hours and unsafe conditions are for. Lazy, unproductive American union workers simply won't do what we need them to do at the cost we want.

201 Kragar  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:49:06am

Sweet lord, Will Ferrel in an election movie?

202 blueraven  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:49:10am

re: #165 The Mongoose

I do not believe for a moment that Mr. Jobs or Mr. Gates founded their respective companies with the specific goal of creating jobs for thousands of strangers. That this occurred is the happy result of their desire to succeed in a free-market economy.

No their objective was to create a product or service that people would purchase. People did. Supply and demand. That created the jobs.

What do private equity firms produce?

It is fine as the often destructive side of capitalism. But it is not a job creator. When Mitt Romney touts his private business experience as knowing how to create jobs...that is just not true.

203 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:49:12am

re: #196 Killgore Trout

True but he never pulled more than 2-3% in any real world poll. Each party has their fringe loons who run for president every year. I guess they fill up room on the stage during the debates but they're pretty pointless.

I don't think even Ron Paul is crazy enough to run for President every year. And who is Ron Paul's equivalent on the Dem's side, in your opinion? Ralph Nader?

204 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:49:25am

re: #197 May Day! May Day!

Hello?

Sorry, but there is no one here at this time.

Please leave a message at the beep.

205 Interesting Times  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:49:41am
206 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:49:48am

re: #192 Mich-again

I actually think Rand Paul is more of a nut than his old man.

I think he's more dangerous than his father. Ron had too much baggage (racist news letters, etc) from the old days. Rand doesn't have those dis qualifiers and has more potential to be broadly electable.

207 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:50:01am

re: #194 Cathartic Expression

I'm not sure anyone here condemns capitalism, but you'll likely find quite a few of us are in favour of an ethical capitalism that takes into consideration conditions beyond profit on into environmentalism and social safety nets.

Human nature pretty much dictates we impose limits and regulations.

I am certainly not in favor of the current system which taxes workers and small business more than capital gains

basically, the game is rigged in favor of the pigs. if that is "capitalism" then no, I reject it

208 The Mongoose  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:50:10am

re: #189 jamesfirecat

Yep, it's a shame that Mitt Romney couldn't leverage his own desire to succeed in a free market economy into a force that created jobs and useful products.

I'd argue he did, for the reasons I discussed earlier. Private equity buyouts can and do save jobs when things go smoothly. But the optics will never be as good as a company like Apple (which, of course, has plenty of its own demons).

209 Obdicut  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:50:16am

re: #203 Unlike Some People

Nader isn't a Democrat.

210 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:50:22am

re: #196 Killgore Trout

True but he never pulled more than 2-3% in any real world poll. Each party has their fringe loons who run for president every year. I guess they fill up room on the stage during the debates but they're pretty pointless.

They also usually act to make the mainstream candidates look more sane in contrast. That pretty much failed for the GOP this cycle.

211 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:51:02am

re: #203 Unlike Some People

I don't think even Ron Paul is crazy enough to run for President every year. And who is Ron Paul's equivalent on the Dem's side, in your opinion? Ralph Nader?

Heh.
Yeah, Nader, Kucinich, etc.

212 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:51:30am

re: #206 Killgore Trout

I think he's more dangerous than his father. Ron had too much baggage (racist news letters, etc) from the old days. Rand doesn't have those dis qualifiers and has more potential to be broadly electable.

Rand Paul argued against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 on national TV, ffs. I don't believe for a minute he's electable anywhere but in the wingnutty parts of the South.

213 Obdicut  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:52:25am

re: #211 Killgore Trout

Heh.
Yeah, Nader, Kucinich, etc.

Nader, again, is not a Democrat.

214 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:52:28am

re: #209 Obdicut

Nader isn't a Democrat.

I know, but see #211. I wanted Kilgore to commit to a name, and I thought of one that he might have thought of.

215 The Mongoose  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:52:30am

re: #203 Unlike Some People

I don't think even Ron Paul is crazy enough to run for President every year.

Now I've got the image of him doing exactly that stuck in my head. Empty campaign stops, confused press unsure why they're following him, Paul casting his ballot at the local Bowling Alley on a meaningless Tuesday afternoon while people look on in consternation.

216 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:52:44am

re: #211 Killgore Trout

Heh.
Yeah, Nader, Kucinich, etc.

George W. Bush

217 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:53:22am

When's the last year time Kucinich ran for POTUS?

218 dragonath  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:53:22am

Hey, didn't Kucinich get primaried out?

219 iossarian  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:54:01am

It's just as well that the GOP don't pay any attention to the fringe-y types who think gays are evil and that Fred Flintstone really had a dinosaur car.

/

220 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:54:55am

re: #217 Unlike Some People

When's the last year time Kucinich ran for POTUS?

2008.

221 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:55:29am

re: #219 iossarian

It's just as well that the GOP don't pay any attention to the fringe-y types who think gays are evil and that Fred Flintstone really had a dinosaur car.

/

Michael Moore!!!!!

//

222 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:55:52am

re: #207 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

I am certainly not in favor of the current system which taxes workers and small business more than capital gains

basically, the game is rigged in favor of the pigs. if that is "capitalism" then no, I reject it

I didn't say the current system is perfect. From what I can see the constant bickering between the free marketers and the heavily restricted capitalists has resulted in a hodge podge of senseless and irrelevant regulations, and more importantly, random gaps in what should be a well thought out and tightly controlled set of regulations.

223 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:56:08am

At least Jane Fonda isn't running for POTUS.

... or is she?

224 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:56:31am

re: #219 iossarian

It's just as well that the GOP don't pay any attention to the fringe-y types who think gays are evil and that Fred Flintstone really had a dinosaur car.

/

Human-powered car. Dinosaur "steam shovel" in the quarry.

Whoever invented "brake shoes" in that environment was going to make a gneiss profit in simoleans.

225 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:56:55am

re: #213 Obdicut

Nader, again, is not a Democrat.

Nader is in his nadir and not likely to be any kind of force.

226 iossarian  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:57:01am

One party's fringe thinks we should adopt economic policies that have been tried in other Western states with varying degrees of success.

The other's thinks we should annihilate the Islamic world with nuclear weapons and waterboard gay teenagers until they accept their place as the dregs of society.

IT'S THE EXACT SAME THING.

That's why I cannot, at this time, rule out a vote for Mitt Romney.

227 iossarian  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:57:31am

re: #224 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Human-powered car. Dinosaur "steam shovel" in the quarry.

Whoever invented "brake shoes" in that environment was going to make a gneiss profit in simoleans.

Haha - upding for "simoleans". Genius.

228 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:57:39am

re: #222 Cathartic Expression

I didn't say the current system is perfect. From what I can see the constant bickering between the free marketers and the heavily restricted capitalists has resulted in a hodge podge of senseless and irrelevant regulations, and more importantly, random gaps in what should be a well thought out and tightly controlled set of regulations.

The current system almost destroyed our country, and the same conditions are in place, the same phenomena are still happening


so yeah, I don't think it's perfect :D

229 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:57:44am

re: #226 iossarian

One party's fringe thinks we should adopt economic policies that have been tried in other Western states Russia and China with varying degrees of success.

ftfy

230 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:58:03am

re: #218 Be Zorch, Daddio

Hey, didn't Kucinich get primaried out?

Is this what you're discussing?

231 funky chicken  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:58:20am

re: #15 Obdicut

Yep. Their job wasn't to create jobs. The 'job creators' the GOP touts are not, in fact, job creators. They are profit-seekers, and if job-destruction leads to profit, they will follow that path.

The real job creators are people like you, me, and anyone who puts in a day's work and produces product. Labor is the root of wealth.

Amen. If Exxon-Mobil wanted to be "job creators" they would take 1% of last year's profits and build a new refinery. Really, $448 billion dollars in profit for the year would sustain them, right?

232 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:58:58am

re: #224 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Human-powered car. Dinosaur "steam shovel" in the quarry.

Whoever invented "brake shoes" in that environment was going to make a gneiss profit in simoleans.

That part of the thread is in de fault.

233 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:58:58am

re: #226 iossarian

One party's fringe thinks we should adopt economic policies that have been tried in other Western states with varying degrees of success.

The other's thinks we should annihilate the Islamic world with nuclear weapons and waterboard gay teenagers until they accept their place as the dregs of society.

IT'S THE EXACT SAME THING.

That's why I cannot, at this time, rule out a vote for Mitt Romney.

That weird freak Kucinich! Arguing for single payer! What an asshole!

234 dragonath  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:59:16am

re: #230 Cathartic Expression

Haha, what

235 iossarian  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:59:34am

re: #233 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

That weird freak Kucinich! Arguing for single payer! What an asshole!

And he's shorter than me but he has a hotter wife. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE.

236 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 11:59:56am

re: #235 iossarian

And he's shorter than me but he has a hotter wife. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE.

HIPPIE WITCHCRAFT

237 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:00:04pm

re: #171 Kragar

Why Rattner’s Attack On Obama Is Actually Bad For Romney: ‘Bain Capital’s Responsibility Was Never To Create…Jobs’

Now this makes more sense. So to re-cap:

...Rattner, who was embroiled in scandal relating to an alleged kickback scheme involving New York state’s pension fund, and paid tens of millions of dollars in settlements after the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and New York state filed lawsuits, may not be the best arbiter of fairness in high finance.

Rattner rat-fucking on MSNBC playing the roll of concern troll for financial punks like himself.

238 funky chicken  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:00:18pm

re: #203 Unlike Some People

I don't think even Ron Paul is crazy enough to run for President every year. And who is Ron Paul's equivalent on the Dem's side, in your opinion? Ralph Nader?

Cynthia McKinney.

239 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:00:59pm

re: #237 Gus

Now this makes more sense. So to re-cap:

...Rattner, who was embroiled in scandal relating to an alleged kickback scheme involving New York state’s pension fund, and paid tens of millions of dollars in settlements after the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and New York state filed lawsuits, may not be the best arbiter of fairness in high finance.

Rattner rat-fucking on MSNBC playing the roll of concern troll for financial punks like himself.

big money pigs always defend their own kind

240 freetoken  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:01:06pm

The problem with this ad, as far as I am concerned, is not it's truth-i-ness or lack thereof.

Just as with the universally re-configurable Jesus™ problem, what Romney did at Bain Capital can be restated to fit just about every American's dream.

This is connected to the housing problem. Houses were a commodity sold, by the real estate industry and financial industry, as a get-rich quick scheme for Americans. And Americans bought into this idea in great numbers.

The idea was this: every American has the right to buy a house, and that house magically increases in value in the span of months, and the house can then be resold for oodles of profit, or if not sold then one can get a magic fountain of money called a equity credit line.

This type of culture looks upon Bain Capital as doing what was normal: buying things and have them magically produce money.

Morning Joe gives no more scrutiny of the real estate bubble than he does for Bain Capital and the legion of vampire "capitalists". That's because the idea of making money by all means possible is the central tenet of Today's America.

241 dragonath  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:01:10pm

re: #225 Cathartic Expression

The last time I saw Nader, he was talking to Cardozo the parrot about wearing a Panda fursuit. No really.

242 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:01:15pm

re: #233 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

That weird freak Kucinich! Arguing for single payer! What an asshole!

Don't hate me but I read that as 'single prayer'.

I had to go 'huh'? quite loudly.

243 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:01:22pm

re: #238 funky chicken

Cynthia McKinney.

And just as powerful too! *snrrk*

244 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:01:31pm

re: #238 funky chicken

Cynthia McKinney.

I like that better than Kucinich.

245 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:01:59pm

re: #239 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

big money pigs always defend their own kind

Flying pigs are just another form of pork.

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:02:20pm

re: #242 Cathartic Expression

Don't hate me but I read that as 'single prayer'.

I had to go 'huh'? quite loudly.

all must pray in unison or be forced to make candles and hemp garments in the patchouli mines

247 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:02:34pm

You thought the GOP race got ugly, I wonder how bad this could get?

Estranged husband and wife Mark and Michelle Schimel are running against each other for a state Assembly seat

ALBANY — The War of the Roses is erupting on Long Island, where a Nassau County man is set to challenge his estranged wife for state Assembly.

Mark Schimel has been given the Nassau County GOP nomination to seek the Great Neck seat that currently belongs to his estranged wife — Democrat Michelle Schimel.

...The couple separated about a year ago after 32 years of marriage and two kids — but are not legally divorced.

248 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:02:38pm

re: #243 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

And just as powerful too! *snrrk*

Heaven knows no one on the left ever criticizes McKinney either.

//

249 Killgore Trout  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:03:21pm

re: #241 Be Zorch, Daddio

The last time I saw Nader, he was talking to Cardozo the parrot about wearing a Panda fursuit. No really.

Heh, I haven't seen that one before.

250 Buck  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:03:23pm

re: #174 blueraven

Romney was CEO of Bain from 1984-1999
Do you honestly think he has nothing to do with this?

What year did GST steel go bankrupt? It answers your question with the data you provide.

251 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:03:38pm

Uh oh.

252 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:05:40pm

re: #248 Gus

Heaven knows no one on the left ever criticizes McKinney either.

//

It is pretty sad that crazy Cynthia McKinney had a better handle on Hurricane Katrina than the rest of congress

253 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:06:03pm

re: #250 Buck

What year did GST steel go bankrupt? It answers your question with the data you provide.

HEY BRO!


WHAT'S HAPPENING BRO!

254 erik_t  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:07:15pm

re: #251 Gus

Fire helmets, get'cher fire helmets here, five updings each.

255 BlazerBeav  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:07:31pm

I just read on the Washington Post site that the steel company in question went under in 2001 - while Romney left Bain to work for the Salt Lake Games in 1999. Seems like the Obama campaign is reaching here, no?

256 Decatur Deb  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:07:41pm

re: #218 Be Zorch, Daddio

Hey, didn't Kucinich get primaried out?

Redistricted, IIRC.

257 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:08:14pm

re: #250 Buck

What year did GST steel go bankrupt? It answers your question with the data you provide.

Actually a better question is how did the welfare of the company change after being taken over by Bain, and did Bain's practices put the company on a path to bankruptcy?

But then I never expect you to ask a non-leading and/or appropriate question.

258 erik_t  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:08:30pm

re: #256 Decatur Deb

Redistricted, IIRC.

A little bit from column A and a little bit from column B. Democrats on Ohio's redistricting committee weren't looking to do him any favors.

259 freetoken  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:08:46pm

re: #255 BlazerBeav

The point (he wrote in reply to someone with negative karma) is that Bain is a creation of Romney, and Bain was just doing what Romney programmed them to do.

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:08:58pm

re: #255 BlazerBeav

I just read on the Washington Post site that the steel company in question went under in 2001 - while Romney left Bain to work for the Salt Lake Games in 1999. Seems like the Obama campaign is reaching here, no?

golly gee, there's no such thing as cause and effect and everything happens immediately

261 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:09:20pm

re: #254 erik_t

Fire helmets, get'cher fire helmets here, five updings each.

Hold your fire! Don't reveal your positions! Wait for my command!

//

262 erik_t  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:10:14pm

re: #261 Gus

Hold your fire! Don't reveal your positions! Wait for my command!

It's for the barbecue. Like, duUUUuh.

263 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:10:19pm

re: #261 Gus

Hold your fire! Don't reveal your positions! Wait for my command!

//

I hope I didn't go off half cocked and premature.

264 Origuy  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:11:34pm

Bain bought GST Steel in 1993. It took them eight years to run it into bankruptcy. Romney was head of Bain for six of those years.

265 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:13:09pm

Buck, have you moved to Alberta yet?

266 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:13:26pm

re: #264 Origuy

Bain bought GST Steel in 1993. It took them eight years to run it into bankruptcy. Romney was head of Bain for six of those years.

but he wasn't responsible, because he LEFT

see, if you run away, then you're not responsible!

REPUBLICANS

267 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:14:00pm

Buyout Profits Keep Flowing to Romney

Though Mr. Romney left Bain in early 1999, he received a share of the corporate buyout and investment profits enjoyed by partners from all Bain deals through February 2009: four global buyout funds and 18 other funds, more than twice as many over all as Mr. Romney had a share of the year he left. He was also given the right to invest his own money alongside his former partners. Because some of the funds and deals covered by Mr. Romney’s agreement will not fully wind down for several years, Mr. Romney is still entitled to a share of some of Bain’s profits.

He left in 1999 but continued to profit from the deals he helped create. That includes this steel mill. He owns it.

268 freetoken  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:14:38pm

re: #266 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

see, if you run away, then you're not responsible!

We call this the Palin Prerogative.

269 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:15:18pm

re: #267 Gus

Buyout Profits Keep Flowing to Romney

He left in 1999 but continued to profit from the deals he helped create. That includes this steel mill. He owns it.

Good find.

270 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:16:32pm

re: #269 HappyWarrior

Good find.

I do what I can from time to time. ;)

271 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:17:36pm

re: #247 NJDhockeyfan

You thought the GOP race got ugly, I wonder how bad this could get?

Estranged husband and wife Mark and Michelle Schimel are running against each other for a state Assembly seat

The US party system in a nut shell. Two parties, in the same bed.
;)

272 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:19:15pm

So that's it. Mittens is the official GOP nominee after today. No one saw this day coming.

//

273 Digital Display  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:19:36pm

Really..When you think about it Mitt is just like Gordan Geko in Wall Street.
Greed is good and all that

274 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:19:57pm

Ron Paul will continue to win presidential polls on the internets.

275 Kragar  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:20:54pm

re: #274 Gus

Ron Paul will continue to win presidential polls on the internets.

Ron Paul is President of the Internets!

276 blueraven  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:21:19pm

re: #250 Buck

What year did GST steel go bankrupt? It answers your question with the data you provide.

It went bankrupt in 2001
They bought it in 1993


Romney structured the deal. Bain made lots of money, while people ultimately lost their jobs.
The whole point is...Romney has never been a "job creator". He was in the business of making money for his firm and their investors. Period.

277 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:21:22pm

re: #274 Gus

Ron Paul will continue to win presidential polls on the internets.

He is First Lord of Cyberspace and thus perpetually at war with the Emperor of the Moon.

That is the true conflict. The rest is simply a distraction to keep the ignorant amused.

278 erik_t  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:21:35pm

re: #266 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

but he wasn't responsible, because he LEFT

see, if you run away, then you're not responsible!

REPUBLICANS

This explains their position on Obama's Recession.

/

279 freetoken  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:23:06pm

WND just published a follow up to their highly popular white-victimization story we mentioned here a week or so ago, that gathered such racial ugliness in the comments that I could only surmise that WND has found its true audience.

Anyway, the new follow-up:

More blacks arrested in mob attack on whites

The "mob" is up to four juveniles (as young as 13.)

Hey, but it's like honey to bees.

280 jamesfirecat  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:23:17pm

re: #266 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]

but he wasn't responsible, because he LEFT

see, if you run away, then you're not responsible!

REPUBLICANS

The same way that George W Bush ceased to be responsible for the period of non economy stimulating tax cuts and lack of regulation that helped create this economic mess once he left being president!

281 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:23:34pm

Oh jeez. Morons.

Titans of Twitter

In a discussion of the Romney campaign’s outreach to the wingnutosphere earlier this month, I mentioned in passing the apparent preoccupation of these new partners in crime with Twitter wars, and particularly the belief that Hilaryrosengate represented some sort of historic triumph for The Cause.

This preoccupation seems to be growing, viz. this gloating post today from John Hinderaker at PowerLine:

We are in the early stages of the 2012 campaign season, with a lot of battlespace preparation going on. In the skirmishing so far, one perhaps surprising media advantage has become clear: the right is clobbering the left on Twitter.

Maybe it’s because Twitter puts a premium on brevity and cleverness. I don’t know. But for some reason, it seems to be a natural medium for conservatives. We saw it when the Hilary Rosen interview (“Ann Romney never worked a day in her life”) prompted a Twitterstorm. We saw it again when #ObamaEatsDogs exploded, and when #Julia blew up in the White House’s face like an exploding cigar. Currently, the White House is promoting #AskMichelle, where loyal Democrats can go to ask the First Lady a question. Only nearly all of the questions have come from conservatives.

282 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:24:59pm

re: #274 Gus

Ron Paul will continue to win presidential polls on the internets.

Some of his bots got in a fight with Romney supporters...

Mitt Romney supporters, Ron Paul partisans brawl at Oklahoma GOP convention

...“It was an eventful day at the Republican state convention,” she said. “And most of the discourse lasted throughout the evening. We’re told the police had to get involved when a 70-year-old Mitt Romney supporter punched a Ron Paul supporter in the head after they disagreed on the vote.”

Givens backed up her report with cell phone video that showed one woman claiming to have been struck by another woman. She also interviewed the man that had claimed to have been assaulted by the 70-year-old Romney supporter.

According to Givens, the convention broke up after the lights were shut off. Supporters of Romney, former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich then departed while the supporters of Paul remained.

Heh.

283 freetoken  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:26:18pm

First three comments from the, nominally Christian, WND story:

PhillipNagle
If the races were reversed would anyone deny it was a hate crime.

---

Roberta Joyce Rodgers
oh geez....let's not call it a hate crime....it's not whites beating black...our government is disgusting

---
James GhandiTop 100
Collapse
Send them to the eelectric chair to teach a lesson the rest of their tribe.

Remember, the actors were 16 and 13 years old.

284 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:26:35pm

Looks like kids in Tampa will get to enjoy the circus this year. Elephants, nuts, and Ron Paul. What fun.

285 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:28:05pm

re: #282 NJDhockeyfan

Some of his bots got in a fight with Romney supporters...

Mitt Romney supporters, Ron Paul partisans brawl at Oklahoma GOP convention

Heh.

The Ron Paul wars! I think it's rather amusing.

286 Lidane  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:28:08pm

re: #282 NJDhockeyfan

Some of his bots got in a fight with Romney supporters...

Mitt Romney supporters, Ron Paul partisans brawl at Oklahoma GOP convention

Heh.

Expect to see more of that in the remaining states, and possibly at the RNC.

The Paulbots have made no secret of their strategy -- they're going to do their level best to "enforce the rules" and try to force a floor fight or otherwise try to nominate Luap Nor from the floor of the convention with enough states on their side to deny Romney a majority of delegates.

287 HappyWarrior  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:28:15pm

re: #283 freetoken

First three comments from the, nominally Christian, WND story:

Remember, the actors were 16 and 13 years old.

Sick fucks.

288 SpaceJesus  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:29:08pm

But this is supposed to be Mitt's breathing time. Why is Obama such a bully?

289 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:29:46pm

re: #288 SpaceJesus

But this is supposed to be Mitt's breathing time. Why is Obama such a bully?

Somebody has to do it.

290 RogueOne  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:31:25pm

Just in case people have forgotten the steel industry took a beating in the 90's. It got bad enough that Bush slapped a tariff on steel imports in 2002. By that time dozens of steel manufactures had gone out of business including quite a few in IN.

Second, the GST isn't a new issue to Romney. I doubt he didn't see this coming...

From 2002:
[Link: www.massaflcio.org...]

But Romney aides are betting the strategy will not work twice, particularly because this time, unlike in 1994, they are launching an aggressive counterattack, accusing O'Brien of exploiting the workers and of distorting Romney's role in the closings. Romney, who was CEO of Bain Capital until 2001, has repeatedly said he was on leave from the company in 1994, when strikes erupted at Ampad's now- closed Indiana paper plant, and again in 2001, when GST Steel, a Kansas City plant, laid off workers and closed.

291 RogueOne  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:36:37pm

Now about those GST retirees. They got a better deal than the administration gave the Delphi workers in the auto restructuring. A lot of those folks (like my neighbor) lost 70% of their retirement packages.....


[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

The government took over Delphi's pension plan during the company's reorganization in Bankruptcy Court. Roughly 21,000 salaried employees lost up to 70% of their pensions, as well as life and health insurance.

I would bet that would make a great commercial in this state.....

292 b_sharp  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:42:38pm

re: #291 RogueOne

Now about those GST retirees. They got a better deal than the administration gave the Delphi workers in the auto restructuring. A lot of those folks (like my neighbor) lost 70% of their retirement packages...

[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

I would bet that would make a great commercial in this state...

And now, after the auto industry is recovering nicely?

293 Eventual Carrion  Mon, May 14, 2012 12:45:45pm

re: #250 Buck

What year did GST steel go bankrupt? It answers your question with the data you provide.

Romney and Bain took control of the mill in 1993.

294 RogueOne  Mon, May 14, 2012 1:08:47pm

re: #290 RogueOne

.....

Second, the GST isn't a new issue to Romney. I doubt he didn't see this coming...

They had this in waiting...

Steel Dynamics: 6000 jobs (Published on May 14, 2012 by mittromney)

295 Buck  Mon, May 14, 2012 1:13:34pm

re: #293 RayFerd

Romney and Bain took control of the mill in 1993.

Look... a pump and dump or breakout doesn't happen over 8 years.

I think keeping a business that might have been destined for bankruptcy alive for 8 more years is actually evidence that they were NOT predatory.

Avoiding the answer is, in my opinion, proof that you know the truth but choose to spin it as much as you could.

However I understand that for many as long as he was there and in charge at any point in the running of that company means that HE alone is responsible for the bankruptcy. The reality for others might be that not every company can be saved. That Romney and his company put in a lot of effort (8 years) into trying to save the company.

I think that idea that this was a breakout is only going to float for people who would never have voted for him anyway.

296 funky chicken  Mon, May 14, 2012 1:14:46pm

re: #282 NJDhockeyfan

According to Givens, the convention broke up after the lights were shut off. Supporters of Romney, former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich then departed while the supporters of Paul remained.

Sitting alone in the dark?

297 S'latch  Mon, May 14, 2012 3:24:29pm

Using bankruptcy to get rich? How is that legal, or even possible? What a flaw!

298 Gus  Mon, May 14, 2012 6:10:05pm
299 SidewaysQuark  Mon, May 14, 2012 6:24:46pm

re: #194 Cathartic Expression

I'm not sure anyone here condemns capitalism, but you'll likely find quite a few of us are in favour of an ethical capitalism that takes into consideration conditions beyond profit on into environmentalism and social safety nets.

Human nature pretty much dictates we impose limits and regulations.

Yes - I agree - you beat me to the edit that clarified my position....


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