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1 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:01:29pm

Eh, throw her out! TV-grade blondes are a dime a dozen. Just make sure the next one will wear a red dress.

/Roger Alies

2 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:05:02pm

Reminds me of Jenna Marbles.

Interesting approach.

3 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:05:08pm

Pretty good stuff. And my first hat tip...whoo-hoo! I've arrived!

4 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:05:38pm

For some reason I heard all of that in the Romanian girl's voice.

5 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:06:42pm

Had me at "Yes, the barbecue."

6 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:07:10pm

I have the garlic!

7 Kragar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:07:13pm

My wife's utter inability to put frozen items in the freezer when we get back from the market is beginning to really get on my nerves.

8 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:08:11pm

re: #6 ggt

I have the garlic!

Good, then you're ready when the vampires show up.

9 deadletterboy  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:08:59pm

re: #4 Decatur Deb

I do love me some Cristina Rad, but this was pretty awesome too.

10 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:09:44pm

re: #9 deadletterboy

I do love me some Cristina Rad, but this was pretty awesome too.

Cristina Rad

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

11 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:10:43pm

We need more of this. A lot more.

12 jaunte  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:13:51pm

Nice tackle by Pippa.

13 deadletterboy  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:15:45pm

re: #10 Decatur Deb

That's who you meant when you said you were imagining her voice right?

14 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:16:29pm

I POSTED this on my facebook. I tagged like 25 people and organizations. Now there is some -"who is speaking for the innocent baby" troll posting about it.

Should be fun. . . .

15 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:17:15pm

re: #13 deadletterboy

That's who you meant when you said you were imagining her voice right?

Yup. Kirk Cameron fangirl.

16 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:17:53pm

re: #12 jaunte

Nice tackle by Pippa.

I was going to work a Pippa Middleton joke in here, but I couldn't find one that works.

17 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:18:33pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

I was going to work a Pippa Middleton joke in here, but I couldn't find one that works.

Why do you hate Pippa Middleton?

18 b_sharp  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:19:19pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

I was going to work a Pippa Middleton joke in here, but I couldn't find one that works.

Is that a Failed Fail?

19 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:19:56pm

re: #17 ggt

Why do you hate Pippa Middleton?

I don't, its just that 'Pippa' seemed a natural lead-in for the joke. It wasn't, though.

20 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:20:22pm

re: #18 b_sharp

Is that a Failed Fail?

No, its just a fail.

21 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:28:29pm

re: #20 Dark_Falcon

On the fail scale, we're talking maybe a 5.5 or 6.

22 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:32:54pm

re: #21 Charles Johnson

On the fail scale, we're talking maybe a 5.5 or 6.

No, more like 3.5-4. 5.5 is the normal FAIL rating when you let an average politician on stage without a teleprompter.

23 aagcobb  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:34:55pm

Manning looked real sharp on that last drive. And Dick LeBeau looks 20 years younger than 75.

24 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:38:49pm

I'm anxiously awaiting the rain tonight when I get to hear how many frogs are in the garden.

25 researchok  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:43:18pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I'm anxiously awaiting the rain tonight when I get to hear how many frogs are in the garden.

Not to worry.

The vast majority will remain in France.
/

26 palomino  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:48:50pm

After being unable to list one single tax deduction/exemption he wants to remove, Romney claims the following about his tax plan:

"Well, I can tell you that people at the high end, high income taxpayers, are going to have fewer deductions and exemptions," he said. "Those numbers are going to come down. Otherwise they'd get a tax break. And I want to make sure people understand, despite what the Democrats said at their convention, I am not reducing taxes on high income taxpayers."

If he's not reducing taxes on the highest earners, how is his overall tax plan supposed to "unleash the job creators" so they'll have extra revenue to hire new workers? In the "rising tide lifts all boats" supply side analogy, the rising tide is increased wealth for the highest earners in the form of tax cuts. If there's no such thing in his tax plan, what's the point? How is it any better, from a gop point of view, than the Bush tax system we have now?

27 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:49:30pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I'm anxiously awaiting the rain tonight when I get to hear how many frogs are in the garden.

Killgore and his frog chorus!1 Maybe I should pitch that as an act for Ravinia next year. It would work if Killgore could also be given the vegetable concession for the night.

28 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:50:57pm

The dumbest man on the internet is derping about the pizza guy who hugged the POTUS:

Dim Hoft: Pizza Owner Who Bear-Hugged Obama Reportedly Visited the White House in July

29 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:51:29pm

re: #26 palomino

Maybe he's trying to go back to the tax plan he had to abandon back during the winter? The one he had to set aside to "Me, too!" past Santorum and Gingrich.

30 jaunte  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:52:16pm

re: #28 Lidane

It's a blood-drive conspiracy!

31 aagcobb  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:52:45pm

re: #26 palomino

After being unable to list one single tax deduction/exemption he wants to remove, Romney claims the following about his tax plan:

If he's not reducing taxes on the highest earners, how is his overall tax plan supposed to "unleash the job creators" so they'll have extra revenue to hire new workers? In the "rising tide lifts all boats" supply side analogy, the rising tide is increased wealth for the highest earners in the form of tax cuts. If there's no such thing in his tax plan, what's the point? How is it any better, from a gop point of view, than the Bush tax system we have now?

Because shut up!

32 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:53:01pm

re: #28 Lidane

The dumbest man on the internet is derping about the pizza guy who hugged the POTUS:

Dim Hoft: Pizza Owner Who Bear-Hugged Obama Reportedly Visited the White House in July

So he's a big fan of and donor to Obama, so what? It's not like that's illegal.

Not directed at Lidane, directed at Hoft.

33 Charles Johnson  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:53:08pm

re: #28 Lidane

The dumbest man on the internet is derping about the pizza guy who hugged the POTUS:

Dim Hoft: Pizza Owner Who Bear-Hugged Obama Reportedly Visited the White House in July

It's all part of the plot.

34 makeitstop  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:53:45pm

re: #28 Lidane

The dumbest man on the internet is derping about the pizza guy who hugged the POTUS:

Dim Hoft: Pizza Owner Who Bear-Hugged Obama Reportedly Visited the White House in July

CONSPIRACY!!11ty!

35 jaunte  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:53:54pm

Wheels within wheels, hugs within hugs.

36 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:54:01pm

re: #26 palomino

After being unable to list one single tax deduction/exemption he wants to remove, Romney claims the following about his tax plan:

If he's not reducing taxes on the highest earners, how is his overall tax plan supposed to "unleash the job creators" so they'll have extra revenue to hire new workers? In the "rising tide lifts all boats" supply side analogy, the rising tide is increased wealth for the highest earners in the form of tax cuts. If there's no such thing in his tax plan, what's the point? How is it any better, from a gop point of view, than the Bush tax system we have now?

Romney is a falsity.

37 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:54:44pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

Maybe he's trying to go back to the tax plan he had to abandon back during the winter? The one he had to set aside to "Me, too!" past Santorum and Gingrich.

Well, we shall wonder.....Cause he won't fucking SAY IT.

geeze.

38 jaunte  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:55:41pm

Guinness Question: Is Scott Van Duzer the first person in history to bear-hug and lift a US President off the ground?

39 jaunte  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:57:05pm

This would not have happened during the Taft administration.

40 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:57:59pm

re: #39 jaunte

This would not have happened during the Taft administration.

As William Howard Taft weighed over 300 lbs, I should think not.

41 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:59:17pm

re: #38 jaunte

Guinness Question: Is Scott Van Duzer the first person in history to bear-hug and lift a US President off the ground?

Not likely. We talked about Lincoln's wrestling in the knife-fight thread. Washington was a physical behemoth for his time, and IRCC did some hand-to-hand on the Pennsylvania frontier. Probably other early presidents as well.

42 aagcobb  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:59:29pm

re: #26 palomino

After being unable to list one single tax deduction/exemption he wants to remove, Romney claims the following about his tax plan:

If he's not reducing taxes on the highest earners, how is his overall tax plan supposed to "unleash the job creators" so they'll have extra revenue to hire new workers? In the "rising tide lifts all boats" supply side analogy, the rising tide is increased wealth for the highest earners in the form of tax cuts. If there's no such thing in his tax plan, what's the point? How is it any better, from a gop point of view, than the Bush tax system we have now?

To be fair, the theory is that tax deductions distort the economy by encouraging behavior based on the tax code rather than economic efficiency. So if you eliminate deductions and lower marginal rates in a revenue neutral way, you create incentives for people to maximize their income, generating economic activity, rather than gaming the tax code.

43 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 6:59:40pm

re: #39 jaunte

This would not have happened during the Taft administration.

Not without some industrial machinery or a few of those guys who do those World's Strongest Man competitions where they do truck pulls and keg tossing.

44 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:01:08pm

re: #41 Decatur Deb

Not likely. We talked about Lincoln's wrestling in the knife-fight thread. Washington was a physical behemoth for his time, and IRCC did some hand-to-hand on the Pennsylvania frontier. Probably other early presidents as well.

Washington had to resort to his sword at Braddock's Defeat. So yes, he knew how to fight hand to hand.

45 Decatur Deb  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:02:24pm

re: #44 Dark_Falcon

Washington had to resort to his sword at Braddock's Defeat. So yes, he knew how to fight hand to hand.

Was also chased on foot by Indians up a tributary of the Alleghany.

46 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:02:31pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

As William Howard Taft weighed over 300 lbs, I should think not.

Image: tumblr_m3f5dtQSJQ1qlerqho1_500.jpg

47 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:03:06pm

re: #46 Obdicut

Image: Here+you+go+_13acb23c760a88a5fd38ae02ba10bdf9.jpg

Link did not work, Obdi.

48 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:04:19pm

re: #45 Decatur Deb

Was also chased on foot by Indians up a tributary of the Alleghany.

True. Braddock put his foot right in it and Washington was lucky to escape the blind-sided fuck-up that followed.

49 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:04:40pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

Try now-- after reload.

50 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:05:48pm

re: #49 Obdicut

Try now-- after reload.

Now it works.

51 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:06:22pm
52 Amory Blaine  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:09:01pm

We're smoking ribs right now (mwaa haa haa). Burning wood in a chimenea, using the coals in the smoker. Delicious rub, basting every hour. Needs at least one more hour at about 230°. Low and slow baby.

53 jaunte  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:10:53pm

re: #41 Decatur Deb

Not likely. We talked about Lincoln's wrestling in the knife-fight thread. Washington was a physical behemoth for his time, and IRCC did some hand-to-hand on the Pennsylvania frontier. Probably other early presidents as well.

Lorenzo Dow Thompson may have the honors:

On April 22, 1832, Lincoln was thrown in two straight falls by Lorenzo Dow Thompson during a wrestling match in Beardstown, Illinois.
[Link: rogerjnorton.com...]

54 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:11:51pm

re: #52 Amory Blaine

We're smoking ribs right now (mwaa haa haa). Burning wood in a chimenea, using the coals in the smoker. Delicious rub, basting every hour. Needs at least one more hour at about 230°. Low and slow baby.

How long are you cooking them in total?

55 Amory Blaine  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:12:55pm

re: #54 Dark_Falcon

How long are you cooking them in total?

Probably be about 5 hours total.

56 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:13:13pm

Evening Lizardim. Not a whole lot going on from the cool and clear wild north country. Hope everything has been good among the Lizardim, sorry I don't hang around as often as I used. Have there been any Sergey sightings since last I dropped by?

57 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:15:58pm

re: #56 thedopefishlives

Evening Lizardim. Not a whole lot going on from the cool and clear wild north country. Hope everything has been good among the Lizardim, sorry I don't hang around as often as I used. Have there been any Sergey sightings since last I dropped by?

No, but Amory is cooking ribs that will make the "hungry" in any dopefish.

58 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:17:22pm

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

No, but Amory is cooking ribs that will make the "hungry" in any dopefish.

Yeah, it seems like every site I've been visiting on the Internet tonight, there is talk of food. Thankfully my craving for barbecue was sated this weekend, but still, swim, swim, hungry...

59 palomino  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:21:54pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

Maybe he's trying to go back to the tax plan he had to abandon back during the winter? The one he had to set aside to "Me, too!" past Santorum and Gingrich.

I don't remember that plan, it's kinda hard to keep up with Mitt's changing positions. Maybe you can refresh my memory?

The real question is this: Has Romney's position all along been that his tax plan won't give cuts to the wealthiest, or is he flipping once again because pollsters have told him that the "tax cuts for millionaires" Dem argument is working?

60 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:22:40pm

So, was the Jen Rubin smack down epic? I was away all day.

What a twit. WaPo should give her the walking papers tomorrow a.m.

61 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:23:43pm

re: #59 palomino

I don't remember that plan, it's kinda hard to keep up with Mitt's changing positions. Maybe you can refresh my memory?

The real question is this: Has Romney's position all along been that his tax plan won't give cuts to the wealthiest, or is he flipping once again because pollsters have told him that the "tax cuts for millionaires" Dem argument is working?

I dunno.

62 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:23:59pm

Has the race now changed?

From Sully, WATCH THE VID

63 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:25:38pm

re: #59 palomino

I don't remember that plan, it's kinda hard to keep up with Mitt's changing positions. Maybe you can refresh my memory?

The real question is this: Has Romney's position all along been that his tax plan won't give cuts to the wealthiest, or is he flipping once again because pollsters have told him that the "tax cuts for millionaires" Dem argument is working?

In any event, even if Romney's tax plan doesn't give cuts to the wealthiest, I'm betting he won't tax them any more. Because that would be un-American. Or something.

64 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:26:30pm
65 palomino  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:27:14pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

I dunno.

That's not much help. As a Romney supporter, you're obligated to know the answers to all my questions.

But seriously, his non-answer answers (and clarifications by aides) make Romney look like a guy still searching for both a tax plan and a stable position on healthcare reform. You know, something he won't have to alter repeatedly over the next two months.

66 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:30:21pm

Clinton commercial on here.

67 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:30:35pm

Obama to young Hawaiian: 'You have a birth certificate?'

"He's a Hawaiian!" Obama exclaimed, looking up to face Andre Wupperman, who now lives in Orlando and will turn 7 next week, according to pool reporters.

"Do you know how to do a shaka?" he asked, making the Hawaiian gesture with his thumb and pinky finger.

"You were born in Hawaii?" he asked the child next, then pointed at him. "Do you have a birth certificate?"

Behind Obama's grin and laughs from those nearby lie the conspiracy theories of some conservative Republicans, who maintain that Obama was not born in the United States, and is therefore not eligible to be president.

He released a certification of live birth during the 2008 campaign, and in the spring of 2011, released his long-form birth certificate. Both show that he was born in a Hawaii hospital on August 4, 1961. Contemporaneously published newspaper announcements also noted the birth in the Aloha State. Only "natural born" citizens of the United States are eligible to be president.

68 palomino  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:31:51pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

Obama to young Hawaiian: 'You have a birth certificate?'

Nice to see the president can laugh at something as despicable as the right's evidence free obsession over the location of his mother's vagina when he popped out.

69 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:33:32pm

re: #68 palomino

Nice to see the president can laugh at something as despicable as the right's evidence free obsession over the location of his mother's vagina when he popped out.

You know, I never thought of it that way. I guess it's yet another way the Republicans are obsessed over women's vaginas.

70 Only The Lurker Knows  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:35:35pm

Night Lizards. Until Tomorrow, May the Deity of your choice smile down upon you.

71 palomino  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:35:46pm

re: #42 aagcobb

To be fair, the theory is that tax deductions distort the economy by encouraging behavior based on the tax code rather than economic efficiency. So if you eliminate deductions and lower marginal rates in a revenue neutral way, you create incentives for people to maximize their income, generating economic activity, rather than gaming the tax code.

Seems reasonable at first glance, but has that theory ever worked in the US?

And is Mitt's rhetoric that he's not cutting taxes on the rich something new? Or did I miss it before when he took that position?

72 makeitstop  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:37:16pm

re: #68 palomino

Nice to see the president can laugh at something as despicable as the right's evidence free obsession over the location of his mother's vagina when he popped out.

It must drive his opponents crazy that he can joke about the birther thing while it's deadly serious to them.

I dig it. He and Biden look like they actually enjoy campaigning, while R&R look like they're performing a chore that neither one of them like very much.

Voters pick up on that, too. And they're more likely to vote for the guys who actually like what they're doing.

73 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:37:21pm

re: #71 palomino

Seems reasonable at first glance, but has that theory ever worked in the US?

And is Mitt's rhetoric that he's not cutting taxes on the rich something new? Or did I miss it before when he took that position?

It worked when JFK did it, and when Reagan did it as well. Both presidents cut tax rates but also eliminated some deductions and simplified the tax code as well.

74 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:38:28pm

Outrageous gaffe alert: Obama Flubs His ‘Three Proud Words’

Rallying supporters in Kissimmee, Fla., Saturday, however, the president said this: “We can create a million new manufacturing jobs in the next four years, because we’re selling goods around the world stamped with three proud words: Made in the USA.”

For those counting, that’s more than just three words.

The president repeated the flub again today in Melbourne, Fla., once again rallying supporters to back his plan to “change our tax code so we stop giving tax breaks to companies that are shipping jobs overseas.”

“Let’s reward them for investing in new plants and equipment here in the U.S., and training new workers here in the U.S. … creating jobs right here in the U.S., making products that we sell around the world stamped with three proud words: Made in the USA. That’s what we’re fighting for. That’s the future we want,” he said as the crowd chanted three proud letters, “U-S-A!”

75 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:39:16pm

re: #59 palomino

I don't remember that plan, it's kinda hard to keep up with Mitt's changing positions. Maybe you can refresh my memory?

The real question is this: Has Romney's position all along been that his tax plan won't give cuts to the wealthiest, or is he flipping once again because pollsters have told him that the "tax cuts for millionaires" Dem argument is working?

Romney's plan has evolved, only now moving towards this revenue neutral position. He's always been incredibly vague on the details though:

For individuals, Romney would extend the 2001/2003/2010 tax law. He promises to lower ordinary income tax rates—but to unspecified levels at some unidentified time in the future. He’d keep refundable credits such as the Earned Income Credit and Child Credit that provide income support for low-wage workers but have come under stiff criticism from some in the GOP.

He’d eliminate taxes on capital gains and dividends, but only for those making $200,000 or less. And Romney is silent on what he’d do about the Alternative Minimum Tax or individual deductions, credits, and exclusions. By contrast, both Cain and Perry would dump the AMT and sharply scale back individual tax subsidies.

Romney is more ambitious when it comes to corporations. He’d cut their rate to 25 percent from the current top rate of 35 percent, add a new temporary investment tax credit and allow firms to continue to fully write off the cost of capital investments in the year they make them. He doesn’t say how all this would work, but allowing firms full expensing, adding an investment credit, and letting them continue to take an interest deduction all on the same equipment would result in massive subsidies on capital purchases.

These corporate tax cuts would also dramatically increase the deficit. Romney says he’d end some business tax breaks but doesn’t say how or when. He also promises to move to a territorial system, where only income earned in the U.S. would be subject to U.S. corporate income tax. But again he provides no details.

76 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:40:25pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

Outrageous gaffe alert: Obama Flubs His ‘Three Proud Words’

RedState was derping about that earlier.

77 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:41:10pm

re: #76 Lidane

RedState was derping about that earlier.

The noise machine is noisy.

78 jaunte  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:41:44pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

ABC is all over the critical stories.

[Link: newsinpolitics.org...]

79 palomino  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:42:09pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

It worked when JFK did it, and when Reagan did it as well. Both presidents cut tax rates but also eliminated some deductions and simplified the tax code as well.

If it worked under Reagan, why did he have to raise taxes so many times afterwards?

And when you say "worked", you're not including what it did to the deficit, right?

80 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:42:28pm

re: #77 Killgore Trout

The noise machine is noisy.

And we won't miss it, because you faithfully report.

Breitbart and Press TV.

81 palomino  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:43:37pm

re: #76 Lidane

RedState was derping about that earlier.

It's like his "57 states" mistake back in 2008. You see, Obama hates America so much he's always screwing up when he talks about the USA.

82 Killgore Trout  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:45:12pm

re: #80 Stanley Sea

And we won't miss it, because you faithfully report.

Breitbart and Press TV.

...and MSNBC and Fox and Russia Today and Mother Jones and Think Progress and DKos. There's much derp about these days. Just throwing another turd on the fire of democracy.

83 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:48:21pm

re: #79 palomino

If it worked under Reagan, why did he have to raise taxes so many times afterwards?

And when you say "worked", you're not including what it did to the deficit, right?

Because Reagan was trying to get the economy ready to go again after inflation had been overcome and Paul Volker had lowered interest rates. He only raised taxes later after things were working decently well again. In part the increases were to pay for the increased military Reagan built up.

84 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:50:17pm

re: #52 Amory Blaine

We're smoking ribs right now (mwaa haa haa). Burning wood in a chimenea, using the coals in the smoker. Delicious rub, basting every hour. Needs at least one more hour at about 230°. Low and slow baby.

I just pulled a ratatouille out of the oven. Added fresh picked green beans and heirloom tomatoes. Lovely dinner with smoked chicken sausage on the side.

85 jaunte  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:51:01pm

Why We All Have 'Internet-Addiction Genes'

Robert Wright: "...Nor was there the nearly infinite supply of gossip that is available now that we can spend our time trolling Facebook or living vicariously among celebrities and following their lives on TMZ. Nor was a robust round of social esteem always, potentially, just a moment away; it wasn't possible, in a very small and technologically primitive social universe, to at any time of day launch an observation or joke and hope for the prompt affirmation of dozens of retweets or Facebook likes. Nor was there a YouTube that permitted the easy indulgence of various natural human visual appetites -- watching endearing infants or two guys fighting or real-life slapstick or whatever.

In other words: the internet, like a pack of cigarettes or lots of cocaine, lets you just sit in a room and repeatedly trigger reward chemicals that, back in the environment of our evolution, you could trigger only with more work and only less frequently."

86 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:51:11pm

Yes, you can has cheezeburger. It even has bacon!

87 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:53:51pm
88 sagehen  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:56:55pm

re: #79 palomino

If it worked under Reagan, why did he have to raise taxes so many times afterwards?

And when you say "worked", you're not including what it did to the deficit, right?

We need to keep reminding people that Reagan's economic policies, especially his ideas about taxation and monetary policy, were all *entirely* specific to the fact that at the time marginal tax rates went up to 70%, interest was 15% and inflation was 18%.

The proper way to deal with that set of circumstances is entirely inappropriate for a time when the highest marginal tax rate is 35%, interest is 0.5% and inflation is 2%.

89 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:59:47pm

Boing!
Boing!
Boing!

90 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:00:27pm

re: #88 sagehen

We need to keep reminding people that Reagan's economic policies, especially his ideas about taxation and monetary policy, were all *entirely* specific to the fact that at the time marginal tax rates went up to 70%, interest was 15% and inflation was 18%.

The proper way to deal with that set of circumstances is entirely inappropriate for a time when the highest marginal tax rate is 35%, interest is 0.5% and inflation is 2%.

On a similar topic, I've been getting spammed by some of my more politically annoying FB friends talking about how gas prices are at their highest ever and it's all Obama's fault. I actually bothered to remind one that when one compensates for inflation, the 2011 price spike was no more severe than either of the other two major gas price spikes in US history, and in fact, it is trending downward with respect to the dollar.

91 sagehen  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:00:49pm

re: #89 darthstar

Boing!
Boing!
Boing!

[Embedded content]

Youtube Video
92 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:05:54pm
93 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:07:53pm
The lessons learned in Iraq and Afghanistan led to a counterinsurgency doctrine authored by Petraeus. This doctrine recognizes that the United States' overwhelming conventional military superiority drives our enemies away from open battle and toward unconventional tactics. It also notes that Western militaries falsely believe that training to win large, conventional wars automatically prepares a military to win small, unconventional ones. However, conventional tactics usually fail against unconventional enemies, and to defeat insurgencies, armies must "overcome their institutional inclination to wage conventional war against insurgents," the Army/Marine Corps counterinsurgency manual says.

These are the costly lessons learned by the U.S. military in our decadelong wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Unfortunately, candidate Romney favors increased defense spending focused on building more ships, planes and missiles, which would enhance our already superior conventional forces. Romney says nothing about the training and equipment needed to meet the unconventional challenges we have just faced and are likely to face in the future. Indeed, Romney's policies will reinvigorate the institutional inclination to wage conventional war that Iraq has taught the military to abandon.

94 palomino  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:09:02pm

re: #88 sagehen

We need to keep reminding people that Reagan's economic policies, especially his ideas about taxation and monetary policy, were all *entirely* specific to the fact that at the time marginal tax rates went up to 70%, interest was 15% and inflation was 18%.

The proper way to deal with that set of circumstances is entirely inappropriate for a time when the highest marginal tax rate is 35%, interest is 0.5% and inflation is 2%.

Good point. But I thought RomRy's plan was to cut the deficit while simultaneously cutting taxes and hiking military spending. As W would have said, it seems like "fuzzy math." Or, as Bill Clinton said last week, "arithmetic."

95 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:12:02pm

re: #92 darthstar

[Embedded content]

Sadly, the joke fails because it implies Romney is self-aware.

96 sagehen  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:13:09pm

No, RomRy's plan is to spout bullshit until election day, then spew some more bullshit to gloss over that they're not even going to try it, then pursue conventional Keynesian spending that the TPGOP will suddenly not be opposed to anymore as soon as there's a white president.

97 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:17:55pm

re: #93 goddamnedfrank

Perhaps he simply intends not to fight such wars. It's always an option we have to simply refuse to engage, and we might well just want to do that. America as a whole might be better off just following Romney's sort of strategy and tacitly admitting that we don't have the temperament for COIN.

98 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:20:52pm

Holy crap...that pic of Biden with the bikers is really Biden with bikers? I thought it was an Onion pic. Hilarious. I can't wait for the GOP to get all offended because the VP was seen talking to real Americans.

99 Mocking Jay  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:22:20pm

re: #98 darthstar

Holy crap...that pic of Biden with the bikers is really Biden with bikers? I thought it was an Onion pic. Hilarious. I can't wait for the GOP to get all offended because the VP was seen talking to real Americans.

He is definitely one guy that anyone could have a beer with.

100 aagcobb  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:23:57pm

Manning has been masterful tonight, especially for a has-been./ In fact, I thought I had a safe 21 point lead in my fantasy leaue, and he is on the verge of beating me.

101 Mocking Jay  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:24:12pm

wait wut is this i dont even

102 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:24:13pm

Chris Kluwe responds to the response to his cockmonster column. (it was cockmonster right?)

[Link: blogs.twincities.com...]

103 Mocking Jay  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:24:44pm

re: #102 Stanley Sea

Chris Kluwe responds to the response to his cockmonster column. (it was cockmonster right?)

[Link: blogs.twincities.com...]

Lustful cockmonster.

104 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:25:26pm

re: #103 Mocking Jay

Lustful cockmonster.

Dude is a hero.

105 b_sharp  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:25:35pm

re: #28 Lidane

The dumbest man on the internet is derping about the pizza guy who hugged the POTUS:

Dim Hoft: Pizza Owner Who Bear-Hugged Obama Reportedly Visited the White House in July

I just swiped your thunder and made a page out of this.

106 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:28:30pm

re: #102 Stanley Sea

Chris Kluwe responds to the response to his cockmonster column. (it was cockmonster right?)

[Link: blogs.twincities.com...]

Lustful cockmonster, and really...who doesn't love a lustful cockmonster?

107 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:28:40pm

re: #102 Stanley Sea

Chris Kluwe responds to the response to his cockmonster column. (it was cockmonster right?)

[Link: blogs.twincities.com...]

shove it in your close-minded, totally lacking in empathy piehole and choke on it. UNFORTUNATELY PHALLIC HEDGE SCULPTURE.

Read it. hoo haw, love this dude.

108 jaunte  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:31:35pm

re: #102 Stanley Sea

DISAPPOINTED LEMUR FACE WITH SOLITARY TEAR TRICKLING DOWN TO CHIN.

Best punter writing today.
Maybe that should be best writer punting today.

109 makeitstop  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:32:11pm

re: #102 Stanley Sea

Chris Kluwe responds to the response to his cockmonster column. (it was cockmonster right?)

[Link: blogs.twincities.com...]

I so want that guy to run for office someday.

110 sagehen  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:32:19pm

re: #98 darthstar

Holy crap...that pic of Biden with the bikers is really Biden with bikers? I thought it was an Onion pic. Hilarious. I can't wait for the GOP to get all offended because the VP was seen talking to real Americans.

If that's Gemma Teller/Morrow on his lap...

111 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:32:24pm

re: #102 Stanley Sea

Chris Kluwe responds to the response to his cockmonster column. (it was cockmonster right?)

[Link: blogs.twincities.com...]

Love his ending:

p.s. I’ve also been vocal as hell about the issue of gay marriage so you can take your “I know of no other NFL player who has done what Mr. Ayanbadejo is doing” and shove it in your close-minded, totally lacking in empathy piehole and choke on it. UNFORTUNATELY PHALLIC HEDGE SCULPTURE.

I think he called the guy a dick-weed.

112 Amory Blaine  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:32:42pm

They are running the Shona Holmes ad 2x an hour tonight.

113 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:33:18pm

re: #108 jaunte

Best punter writing today.

He's better than a lot of writing writers.

114 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:34:26pm

Ben Roethlisberger pass INTERCEPTED by Tracy Porter and returned for 44 yards for a TOUCHDOWN.

From CNN. The Broncos are kicking ass and taking names.

115 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:34:53pm

re: #97 Dark_Falcon

Perhaps he simply intends not to fight such wars. It's always an option we have to simply refuse to engage, and we might well just want to do that. America as a whole might be better off just following Romney's sort of strategy and tacitly admitting that we don't have the temperament for COIN.

If that were the case he wouldn't have called us not leaving 10 to 30 thousand troops in Iraq Obama's "signature failure." Fact is Romney is incredibly belligerent on Iran, has no plan to leave Afghanistan, and clearly plans to keep the military overextended with US troops indefinitely tied up, fighting and dying in countries where they aren't welcome. There's no "perhaps" about it, you're deluding yourself about your candidates clearly stated policies. He's a spoiled child that views the troops as expendable toys, the absolute last kind of person that should ever be considered for Commander in Chief.

116 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:38:43pm

re: #102 Stanley Sea

Chris Kluwe responds to the response to his cockmonster column. (it was cockmonster right?)

[Link: blogs.twincities.com...]

Ha! I love that guy. He's hilarious and awesome.

117 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:39:00pm

re: #105 b_sharp

I just swiped your thunder and made a page out of this.

No worries. Page away!

118 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:40:08pm

re: #111 darthstar

Love his ending:

I think he called the guy a dick-weed.

hahahahaha yeah.

119 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:41:16pm

And in a rather shocking bit, the Green Bay Packers were the only NFC North team to lose their first game, falling to the 49ers 30-22. The Bears powered past Indy 41-21, a 5-yard TD pass by Matt Stafford to the running back also named Kevin Smith gave the Lions a 27-23 win over the Rams, and a healed Adrian Peterson's excellent running game played the biggest role in getting the Vikings a 26-23 OT over the Jaguars.

120 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:42:18pm

re: #115 goddamnedfrank

I don't care for your accusatory tone, nor your overly hostile conclusions.

121 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:44:32pm

Why some Republicans are just too fucked in the head to trust to reproduce (let them vote, sure, but for chrissakes, don't make more of them)...

122 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:48:22pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

I don't care for your accusatory tone, nor your overly hostile conclusions.

OK, but given what we DO know of RomRy's positions and the positions of those who are currently in the driver's seat at the GOP, is GDF necessarily wrong in his analysis? C'mon, be truthful.

I don't that GDF's that far off the mark.

123 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:49:28pm

Say what you want about Keith, but Chris Kluwe is winning internets left and right today.

124 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:52:36pm

re: #122 Gert Fröbe

No, GDF is being nasty and taking overly hostile positions.

125 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:52:36pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

I don't care for your accusatory tone, nor your overly hostile conclusions.

You'd be a great den mother.

126 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:52:56pm

re: #123 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Say what you want about Keith, but Chris Kluwe is winning internets left and right today.

Chris Kluwe: Kicking balls and swinging Kluwe-by-fours for truth, justice, and the American way.

127 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:55:28pm

LOL WTF:

128 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:56:13pm

re: #124 Dark_Falcon

No, GDF is being nasty and taking overly hostile positions.

If that post is wrong or inaccurate, make a detailed argument against it, instead of talking about vague, subjective stuff like "tone" and "hostility".

129 Mocking Jay  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:56:51pm

Hey guys, if anyone can spot overly hostile positions, it would be a conservative...

130 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:58:13pm

re: #127 Lidane

LOL WTF:

[Embedded content]

And here I thought that Apple fanboys/fangirls (the trendy hipster types) had a monopoly on the Reality Distortion Field.

Apparently not...sheesh.

/half

131 makeitstop  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:59:27pm

re: #127 Lidane

LOL WTF:

[Embedded content]

That is just so far beyond stupid. I'd love to hear an explanation of how they could possibly give Mitt any credit for killing OBL.

132 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:00:54pm

re: #131 makeitstop

That is just so far beyond stupid. I'd love to hear an explanation of how they could possibly give Mitt any credit for killing OBL.

It's easy...Mitt was there in disguise with SEAL Team 6 when they infiltrated the compound and fired the kill shot.

////if I believed malarkey that fantastic, I'd have to start drinking heavily

133 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:02:10pm

re: #127 Lidane

LOL WTF:

[Embedded content]

Romney's not going to like how that number helps him nationwide. It makes the entire GOP look stupider than they actually are.

134 ozbloke  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:03:36pm

After seeing the photos of Obama and Biden today, I've been wondering what Romney might do to show he's just like everyone else.

After much thought I wouldn't be surprised if he threw a midget.

135 darthstar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:05:12pm

re: #134 ozbloke

After seeing the photos of Obama and Biden today, I've been wondering what Romney might do to show he's just like everyone else.

After much thought I wouldn't be surprised if he threw a midget.

He might be convinced to wear a cotton blend.

136 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:05:21pm
137 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:05:22pm

re: #134 ozbloke

After seeing the photos of Obama and Biden today, I've been wondering what Romney might do to show he's just like everyone else.

After much thought I wouldn't be surprised if he threw a midget.

Mitt already tried to prove he's like everyone else by going to NASCAR. It was about as effective as it sounds.

138 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:06:51pm

re: #131 makeitstop

That is just so far beyond stupid. I'd love to hear an explanation of how they could possibly give Mitt any credit for killing OBL.

Bain subsidized some military contractor for their shoes?

OH, BUT HE LEFT BAIN BACK IN WHENEVER.

139 b_sharp  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:07:18pm

re: #131 makeitstop

That is just so far beyond stupid. I'd love to hear an explanation of how they could possibly give Mitt any credit for killing OBL.

They watch Fox News exclusively.

140 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:10:31pm

Looks like there's going to be a teacher strike in Chicago:

141 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:10:32pm

re: #137 Lidane

Mitt already tried to prove he's like everyone else by going to NASCAR. It was about as effective as it sounds.

yep

142 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:11:44pm

re: #131 makeitstop

That is just so far beyond stupid. I'd love to hear an explanation of how they could possibly give Mitt any credit for killing OBL.

I think at least some of the people asked said it just to fuck with the pollster. It's a stupid question, and one only useful for smearing the people it was asked of if some of them give the wrong answer. I'd like to know if Ohio Democrats were asked the same question, and if so how many of them got it wrong or said they didn't know.

143 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:12:11pm

I don't take PPP too seriously. They seem to be gleefully reporting the 15% number of Republicans who answered that Romney was responsible for the death of OBL. Then they proceeded to get into a squabble with Jennifer Rubin on Twitter which is rather unprofessional for a polling outfit. I consider them the opposite of Rasmussen only for a younger audience.

144 andres  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:12:21pm

re: #131 makeitstop

That is just so far beyond stupid. I'd love to hear an explanation of how they could possibly give Mitt any credit for killing OBL.

Didn't Paul Ryan recently revealed he was part of the raid that killed OBL? //

The more reasonable explanation is that, this is proof that drugs cause permanent brain damage.

145 andres  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:12:40pm

re: #142 Dark_Falcon

I think at least some of the people asked said it just to fuck with the pollster. It's a stupid question, and one only useful for smearing the people it was asked of if some of them give the wrong answer. I'd like to know if Ohio Democrats were asked the same question, and if so how many of them got it wrong or said they didn't know.

Perhaps.

146 Kragar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:14:04pm

Paul Krugman: Paul Ryan 'Was Never a Man of Substance'

Nobel Prize-winning New York Times columnist Paul Krugman said that GOP presidential nominee Paul Ryan was "never a man of substance" during our "This Week" roundtable discussion about the Romney-Ryan tax plan that I questioned Ryan about earlier on the program. You can read the full exchange below.

147 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:15:00pm

re: #140 Lidane

Looks like there's going to be a teacher strike in Chicago:

[Embedded content]

Rahm's tried to be reasonable, but the union is being obdurant. He needs to concede very little more, as he's already given up merit pay and a 16% pay raise over 4 years. The teachers have got enough and need to accept the accountability measures that remain.

148 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:16:02pm

I'm posting as a co-worker to a mother who, without school, couldn't work. Where do the kids go?

BUT, I betcha a million, they are ripping the promises the've previously made to teachers.

Because of the economy downturn. Promises that could be kept in good financial times, but now, er....

And the promised to people suffer.

149 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:16:17pm

re: #146 Kragar

Paul Krugman: Paul Ryan 'Was Never a Man of Substance'

The angry little liberal has a mad.

150 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:17:01pm

I'm generally on management side, but I'm leery of "accountability measures" in education.

151 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:17:45pm

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

The angry little conservative (?) has a pout.

152 Big Joe  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:18:11pm

re: #142 Dark_Falcon

I think at least some of the people asked said it just to fuck with the pollster. It's a stupid question, and one only useful for smearing the people it was asked of if some of them give the wrong answer. I'd like to know if Ohio Democrats were asked the same question, and if so how many of them got it wrong or said they didn't know.

Poll PDF

153 makeitstop  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:18:17pm

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

The angry little liberal has a mad.

He also happens to be right.

Ryan as 'policy wonk' is a media creation. He was a back-bencher with a laughable legislative record.

154 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:19:01pm

re: #148 Stanley Sea

[Embedded content]

I'm posting as a co-worker to a mother who, without school, couldn't work. Where do the kids go?

BUT, I betcha a million, they are ripping the promises the've previously made to teachers.

Because of the economy downturn. Promises that could be kept in good financial times, but now, er....

And the promised to people suffer.

You'd lose that bet. Rahm has made concession after concession to the unions, but they seem determined to reject anything that increases either workload or accountability upon their membership. That being so, they can do without their pay till such time as they are willing to make substantive concessions.

155 b_sharp  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:19:18pm

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

The angry little liberal has a mad.

The angry little liberal is a Nobel winning economist who knows a great deal more about economics than do you, or I, or Ryan.

156 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:19:28pm

re: #150 SteveMcG

I'm generally on management side, but I'm leery of "accountability measures" in education.

Why?

157 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:19:42pm

re: #153 makeitstop

Reminds me of Christine O'Donnell trying to convince Soledad O'Brien she was a wonk. Soledad laughed in her face.

158 Mocking Jay  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:19:48pm

re: #149 Dark_Falcon

The angry little liberal has a mad.

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

159 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:20:36pm

re: #156 Dark_Falcon

The accountability measures are generally created by politicians, not educators.

160 Mocking Jay  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:21:01pm
161 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:21:36pm

re: #160 Mocking Jay

Wait until September.

162 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:22:03pm

re: #155 b_sharp

The angry little liberal is a Nobel winning economist who knows a great deal more about economics than do you, or I, or Ryan.

I'd love to be in the room for a conversation between Krugman and Bernanke. Both of them are economists and writers and have extensively covered monetary policy. It would be an interesting discussion. Bernanke may be a Republican, but he's not an illiterate wingnut Paulian type. I think he and Krugman would have a great exchange of ideas.

163 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:22:19pm

re: #150 SteveMcG

I'm generally on management side, but I'm leery of "accountability measures" in education.

During good financial times, their contracts could be honored, and EASILY. Now, with tough times money can't be paid. And all of a sudden they are asking for too much. This is the fault of government budget planners who did not figure in a downturn. NOT the fault of any damn teacher of your child.

Also, remember this (at least in California, I bet throughout the US) any government employee/teacher etc., does not pay into/get social security. Their pension is in lieu of it.

164 Mocking Jay  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:22:42pm

re: #161 SteveMcG

Wait until September.

It... it is September...

/

165 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:22:50pm

re: #159 SteveMcG

The accountability measures are generally created by politicians, not educators.

They also tend to be arbitrary, like standardized tests.

166 makeitstop  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:23:14pm

re: #160 Mocking Jay

[Embedded content]

Whoa. If that's true, Romney and his SuperPACs are nearly a quarter of a billion in on this campaign.

And he still can't close the gap? That's pathetic.

167 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:23:14pm

re: #154 Dark_Falcon

You'd lose that bet. Rahm has made concession after concession to the unions, but they seem determined to reject anything that increases either workload or accountability upon their membership. That being so, they can do without their pay till such time as they are willing to make substantive concessions.

I want you so bad to get a job on the other side. You need to open your mind.

168 b_sharp  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:24:13pm

re: #164 Mocking Jay

It... it is September...

/

Wait! What?

169 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:24:37pm

re: #159 SteveMcG

The accountability measures are generally created by politicians, not educators.

As they should be. The educators are not to be trusted to create such measures, as the measures they create will serve only to present the image they want delivered.

Individual teachers are by and large good people, but when their unions are in it only for the union and its members. How the schools are doing is not a matter of great import for the union.

170 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:25:26pm

You ever notice it's only the teachers who have to be accountable for the students? Never the administrators or the parents. I remember the famous Sarah Palin eye roll when some protester admitted she was a teacher.

171 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:26:12pm

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

blah blah blah blah blah

I'm hating on my neighbors, but they suck, and don't matter for shit.

That's how you sound.

172 makeitstop  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:26:12pm

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

Individual teachers are by and large good people, but when their unions are in it only for the union and its members.

The aforementioned 'by and large good people.'

173 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:26:55pm

re: #166 makeitstop

Whoa. If that's true, Romney and his SuperPACs are nearly a quarter of a billion in on this campaign.

And he still can't close the gap? That's pathetic.

Seriously. If you're spending that kind of cash and you're still down in the polls, you're doing it wrong.

174 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:26:56pm

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

As they should be. The educators are not to be trusted to create such measures, as the measures they create will serve only to present the image they want delivered.

Individual teachers are by and large good people, but when their unions are in it only for the union and its members. How the schools are doing is not a matter of great import for the union.

In the light of your cynical argument, the unions would benefit from improved performance.

175 sagehen  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:26:58pm

re: #165 Lidane

They also tend to be arbitrary, like standardized tests.

Which take no notice of the fact that the kids at some schools are well-fed and well-rested and native English speakers, and kids at some other schools aren't. The teachers shouldn't be held accountable for the quality of students they're assigned.

176 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:27:14pm

re: #170 SteveMcG

You ever notice it's only the teachers who have to be accountable for the students? Never the administrators or the parents. I remember the famous Sarah Palin eye roll when some protester admitted she was a teacher.

It's a nice Republican cult to hate on teachers and their unions.

ditto ditto ditto

177 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:30:00pm

re: #175 sagehen

Which take no notice of the fact that the kids at some schools are well-fed and well-rested and native English speakers, and kids at some other schools aren't. The teachers shouldn't be held accountable for the quality of students they're assigned.

Then the metrics targets can be adjusted for different schools. The problem with that is that it risks what George W. Bush often referred to as the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

178 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:31:44pm

re: #177 Dark_Falcon

Then the metrics targets can be adjusted for different schools. The problem with that is that it risks what George W. Bush often referred to as the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

I don't think those two sentences can coexist.

179 b_sharp  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:32:06pm

re: #177 Dark_Falcon

Then the metrics targets can be adjusted for different schools. The problem with that is that it risks what George W. Bush often referred to as the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

Code words for a fear of levelling the playing field.

180 Lidane  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:33:13pm

re: #176 Stanley Sea

It's a nice Republican cult to hate on unions.

FTFY

Never mind that unions have been out there fighting for so many things that we take for granted and which we look for when looking for a job -- 40 hour work weeks, weekends, safe working conditions, overtime pay, paid vacation, family and medical leave, maternity leave, health insurance, 401k plans, benefits, etc. Unions are somehow the root of all evil in business. WTF.

181 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:34:24pm

Lets please remember that Rahm Emmanuel is a Democrat and this Chicago teacher's strike is entirely a Dem on Dem scrimmage. The Republican Party has no involvement in this matter.

182 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:35:32pm

My daughter is in a private grade school. Her class's test scores and academic pace have fallen behind those of an Archdiocesan school. I can point a finger at teachers who could have done better, but at the same time the former principal was in over her head, too. I mean, all of the teachers couldn't have sucked at the same time. All of the students couldn't have taken a turn for the mediocre at the same time. Making teacher alone accountable for the performance of a system is ridiculous.

183 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:36:26pm

re: #179 b_sharp

Code words for a fear of levelling the playing field.

No damn code words here.

184 b_sharp  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:39:17pm

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

Lets please remember that Rahm Emmanuel is a Democrat and this Chicago teacher's strike is entirely a Dem on Dem scrimmage. The Republican Party has no involvement in this matter.

Who said it was?

185 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:39:36pm

So which is it? Do you adjust the standards for scores or don't you?

186 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:40:51pm

re: #184 b_sharp

Who said it was?

Much of the posting here has been aimed at the GOP's attitude towards teacher's unions. I felt it needed to be said that said attitude will not be relevant to the resolution of this particular strike.

187 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:42:10pm

re: #185 SteveMcG

So which is it? Do you adjust the standards for scores or don't you?

There's no definitive answer to that question. It's a judgement call, and there are valid arguments either way.

188 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:42:49pm

re: #177 Dark_Falcon

Then the metrics targets can be adjusted for different schools. The problem with that is that it risks what George W. Bush often referred to as the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

Which "Every Child Left Behind", with it's required teaching to the test and other unfunded mandates, does not address.

189 ozbloke  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:42:55pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

Much of the posting here has been aimed at the GOP's attitude towards teacher's unions. I felt it needed to be said that said attitude will not be relevant to the resolution of this particular strike.

At least you acknowledge the GOP has an attitude.
Have an upding.

190 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:43:21pm

Teaching to the test is always a bad idea. It's worth keeping in mind that American students were never the geniuses that we think they were. The body of knowledge we need changes, now faster than ever. Even if you can come up with a satisfactory standard, it would be obsolete on arrival.

191 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:43:28pm

re: #175 sagehen

Which take no notice of the fact that the kids at some schools are well-fed and well-rested and native English speakers, and kids at some other schools aren't. The teachers shouldn't be held accountable for the quality of students they're assigned.

There's a typical dishonesty of Republican politicians on the issue of education. As when Romney cited the failure of a district with small class sizes to completely eliminate students testing in the bottom 10% as an indicator that small class sizes don't matter. He never bothered to note the percentage of students in that district that tested in the bottom 10% nationally. Nor did he bother to relate the average testing level of that district, instead he placed a ridiculous hurdle in their path, pretending that the existence of any poorly performing children at all meant that class size didn't matter.

"I came into office and talked to people, and said ‘What do we do to improve our schools?’ And a number of folks said, ‘Well, we need smaller classroom sizes -- that will make the biggest difference.’ So I gathered information across our state. We had 351 cities and towns. I said let’s compare the average classroom size from each school district with the performance of our students, because we test our kids, and we’ll see if there’s a relationship. And there was not.

"As a matter of fact, the school district with the smallest classrooms, Cambridge, had students in the bottom 10 percent," he continued. "So just getting smaller classrooms didn’t seem to be the key."

And his supporters bought the above mendacious pile of shit because they're either idiots themselves, fucking dishonest, or both.

192 ozbloke  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:44:08pm

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

There's no definitive answer to that question. It's a judgement call, and there are valid arguments either way.

Then what's your judgement?

193 b_sharp  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:45:10pm

re: #188 William Barnett-Lewis

Which "Every Child Left Behind", with it's required teaching to the test and other unfunded mandates, does not address.

Teaching to the test has all the honesty of Intel and AMD engineering their chips to do well on specific benchmark tests.

194 Mocking Jay  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:45:11pm

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

There's no definitive answer to that question. It's a judgement call, and there are valid arguments either way.

Either you do or you don't. That's pretty much the definition of definitive.

195 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:45:17pm

re: #187 Dark_Falcon

There's no definitive answer to that question. It's a judgement call, and there are valid arguments either way.

So that's my point. Too many people are trying to reduce education to a score. It's just too complex to resort to platitudes like "Evil unions are ruining education".

196 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:46:13pm

re: #193 b_sharp

Teaching to the test has all the honesty of Intel and AMD engineering their chips to do well on specific benchmark tests.

You don't think that they do?

197 b_sharp  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:46:55pm

re: #196 Mostly sane, most of the time.

You don't think that they do?

I know they do. That was my point, it's dishonest.

198 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:48:47pm

re: #197 b_sharp

I know they do. That was my point, it's dishonest.

I happen to disagree that it's dishonest. These are products, and it' snot unreasonable to emphasize certain characteristics.

199 dragonath  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:48:51pm

re: #177 Dark_Falcon

Then the metrics targets can be adjusted for different schools. The problem with that is that it risks what George W. Bush often referred to as the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

Ah, the eloquence of George W. Bush

200 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:50:20pm

re: #199 dragonath

Ah, the eloquence of George W. Bush

Yeah, W was such an educator.

201 Mocking Jay  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:51:36pm

Can any of our resident Republicans defend their candidate on this issue?

"Well, I'm not getting rid of all of health care reform," the former Massachusetts governor said in an interview with NBC's "Meet the Press." "Of course there are a number of things that I like in health care reform that I'm going to put in place. One is to make sure that those with pre-existing conditions can get coverage."

...

Instead, the aide added, there has been no change in the Republican nominee's position. "[I]n a competitive environment, the marketplace will make available plans that include coverage for what there is demand for," the aide said. "He was not proposing a federal mandate to require insurance plans to offer those particular features."

202 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:54:40pm

re: #201 Mocking Jay

Forget about defending, I wouldn't trust anything he says about reform. He's already ceded control of himself to the party. The GOP will play along with Romney pretending to shake off some extreme positions, but God forbid he's elected, he'll do what he's told. Funny thing is, that's just about the same argument I made against Hilary Clinton back in 2008!

203 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:57:53pm

re: #119 Dark_Falcon

And in a rather shocking bit, the Green Bay Packers were the only NFC North team to lose their first game, falling to the 49ers 30-22. The Bears powered past Indy 41-21, a 5-yard TD pass by Matt Stafford to the running back also named Kevin Smith gave the Lions a 27-23 win over the Rams, and a healed Adrian Peterson's excellent running game played the biggest role in getting the Vikings a 26-23 OT over the Jaguars.

Not especially shocking. TT is an utter incompetent who's been hiding it on the strength of Roger's arm for the past several years. But the defense has been bad for the past two seasons, disastrous last year really, and will not be any better this year because neither coach or GM knows WTF their doing.

The Bears will win the division, I hate to say, and Detroit and GB will fight it out for the wild card. Because of Rogers, if they get the WC slot, the Bears better hope for the bye because they don't want to have to play that wild card game.

Next week will show much more but I expect a 21 - 35 Bears win.

204 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 9:59:22pm

re: #192 ozbloke

Then what's your judgement?

It's not that simple. There's also the question of legality: Given the fact that most of the lower performing areas in Chicago are majority black and Latino, is such adjustment a violation of the Civil rights Act of 1964? I don't want to propose a policy that violates Federal law.

205 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:00:57pm

re: #203 William Barnett-Lewis

Not especially shocking. TT is an utter incompetent who's been hiding it on the strength of Roger's arm for the past several years. But the defense has been bad for the past two seasons, disastrous last year really, and will not be any better this year because neither coach or GM knows WTF their doing.

The Bears will win the division, I hate to say, and Detroit and GB will fight it out for the wild card. Because of Rogers, if they get the WC slot, the Bears better hope for the bye because they don't want to have to play that wild card game.

Next week will show much more but I expect a 21 - 35 Bears win.

You might want to hope the Lions get the wild card instead of the Packers. Green Bay not making the playoffs might serve as a much-needed wake-up call.

206 b_sharp  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:02:01pm

re: #198 SteveMcG

I happen to disagree that it's dishonest. These are products, and it' snot unreasonable to emphasize certain characteristics.

If you are designing your chip to run word processors or graphics apps fast, then I agree with you. But if your design work is to run a specific benchmark fast then that is dishonest.

207 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:03:18pm

re: #204 Dark_Falcon

Remind me again why we're adjusting standards? It started out as a way to keep the evil teacher's union from mailing in the kids' education. Now you don't really seem to want a standard. You seem to want some sort of thing that you'ss settle for, whether the kids really learned anything or not.

208 Amory Blaine  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:04:11pm

Ribs....so..succulant...fingers so sticky....

209 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:05:18pm

re: #208 Amory Blaine

Ribs....so..succulant...fingers so sticky....

Yeah, I agree...sticky fingers are a good benchmark for judging ribs.

210 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:06:24pm

re: #208 Amory Blaine

Ribs....so..succulant...fingers so sticky....

Careful. That could end badly.

//Digits.

//

211 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:07:04pm

re: #206 b_sharp

If you are designing your chip to run word processors or graphics apps fast, then I agree with you. But if your design work is to run a specific benchmark fast then that is dishonest.

It's a commercial standard. If you think the product doesn't meet your needs, find another one that might. The fact that the benchmark isn't an adequete measure of your particular requirement just doesn't make anything dishonest. Somehow, in spite of all this supposed dishonesty, the gaming and word processing markets seem to be thriving.

212 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:08:12pm

re: #207 SteveMcG

Because other people brought up concerns that teachers assigned to students with greater problems might end up failnig their metrics through no fault of their own. I suggested a potential way to solve this problem, though I admit it has its own set of problems.

There's no 'win-win' in this sort of matter; Any system of accountability accountability (or even none at all) produces winners and losers.

213 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:08:48pm
214 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:10:16pm

Here's an analogy. I'll make a really fast sportscar. It'll do 0-60 in 4.1 seconds and it'll stop 60-0 in say 110 feet. Turning, however, is optional. Somebody else may value sharp conering in their sportscar. So is optimizing 0-60 dishonest, or is maximizing the skidpad dishonest?

215 Amory Blaine  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:10:41pm

The bark turned out perfect. Nice light cherry/oak smoke. Let the boy take the reigns. Excellent job.

216 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:11:05pm

They're doing so much better. I mean miles above where I expected the Obama campaign by now. They're killin' it.

217 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:13:11pm

re: #205 Dark_Falcon

You might want to hope the Lions get the wild card instead of the Packers. Green Bay not making the playoffs might serve as a much-needed wake-up call.

Be nice if that were all that it would take. But he's hailed as a "genius" for going with Rogers over Favre. Uh, excuse me? It takes a genius to pick a rising young star over an older guy (who did have a couple of years left until crunched by a bounty hunter)? No, the defense will have to misfire badly all year with near .500 results first. Then they'll scapegoat the DC. Then it has to go equally badly again. Then, and only then, will they begin to get worried over at team headquarters.

Just so it doesn't take as long as between Dickey to Farve for them to pull their collective heads from their bottoms... ;O

218 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:13:50pm

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

So now you finally understand why I am leery of accountability standards.

219 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:14:25pm

re: #217 William Barnett-Lewis

Come on, guys, it week 1.

220 R.M, Ramallo  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:14:56pm

The thing to remember about Ohio is that the further south you go, the redder it gets. As far as I'm concerned, it's the northern part of Kentucky.

I'm in northeast Ohio, aka, the rust belt, so it's pretty blue.
We know why Osama is dead, and why GM is still alive.
And we sure as hell know that it wasn't because of Mitt Romney.

221 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:15:51pm

Image: Obama-Flag-Blue-Sky.jpg

222 Mocking Jay  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:16:52pm

re: #216 Gus

They're doing so much better. I mean miles above where I expected the Obama campaign by now. They're killin' it.

These are the adults.

223 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:17:57pm

re: #222 Mocking Jay

One thing I've seen about Barack Obama, even going back to the 2008 campaign, is that he doesn't panic.

224 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:19:10pm

re: #222 Mocking Jay

These are the adults.

Smarter. On their game. These nuts are even tied in with the wingnut bloggers we know. I mean, seriously?

225 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:20:35pm

...

226 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:21:12pm

re: #225 Dark_Falcon

...

?

227 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:22:02pm

Riight.

228 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:22:40pm

OK. I see you retracted that. ;)

229 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:22:56pm

That's not a smirk mon.

230 R.M, Ramallo  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:23:12pm

People are catching on to what's going on. I registered 21 more today, and my hubby printed maps that showed new voters where and what they should take with them when they go to vote.
It was a good day.

231 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:26:01pm

re: #225 Dark_Falcon

Look at the smirk on that guy.

OUTRAGE!

232 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:29:14pm

re: #231 Gert Fröbe

OUTRAGE!

I deleted that. I decided as soon as I'd hit post that it was a mistake and pulled it.

233 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:30:30pm

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

I deleted that. I decided as soon as I'd hit post that it was a mistake and pulled it.

Is that what the "..." was?

234 freetoken  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:31:07pm

Mixing metaphors faster than Mitt etches and sketches...

MP3 Audio
235 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:31:48pm

re: #233 SteveMcG

Is that what the "..." was?

Yes. I plead exhaustion.

236 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:32:33pm

re: #235 Dark_Falcon

Yes. I plead exhaustion.

Probably a good idea. TTFN

237 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:33:04pm

re: #230 OhNoZombies!

People are catching on to what's going on. I registered 21 more today, and my hubby printed maps that showed new voters where and what they should take with them when they go to vote.
It was a good day.

That reminds me, I need to call the City Clerks office this week to find out when the training for election day volunteers will be. I've put my name in since she's running low on people.

238 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:34:56pm

re: #231 Gert Fröbe

OUTRAGE!

I was just planning two short sentences.

//

239 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:35:49pm

Good Night, all.

240 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:42:13pm

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

Good Night, all.

Later oh future teacher and union member! ;)

241 freetoken  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:49:51pm
MP3 Audio
242 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:01:20pm

Avro Arrow. I laughed.

243 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:04:59pm

Reno Air Races Accident NTSB Hearing (2012)

Youtube Video

2 hours.

244 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:07:56pm

re: #242 Gus

Avro Arrow. I laughed.

Ok, I know a wee bit about aviation. Why would you laugh about it? Had it been built it would have been, at worst, equal to the best of the US Century series.

245 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:09:13pm

re: #244 William Barnett-Lewis

Ok, I know a wee bit about aviation. Why would you laugh about it? Had it been built it would have been, at worst, equal to the best of the US Century series.

Because of the Century Series connotations and the fact that it's basically a cold war interceptor profile. Why waste time with that. Drop the F-35 and buy Super Bees instead.

246 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:13:08pm

I know I'm missing something, but the F22 & F35 are both over priced & under performing. We'd do better reopening the F16 lines yet again.

And yeah, the Arrow was built around that high alt/speed intercept mission. OTOH, it probably would have rebuilt easier than, say, MiG's model 25...

Somehow though I doubt that's where you're going with this.

247 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:15:51pm

re: #246 William Barnett-Lewis

I know I'm missing something, but the F22 & F35 are both over priced & under performing. We'd do better reopening the F16 lines yet again.

And yeah, the Arrow was built around that high alt/speed intercept mission. OTOH, it probably would have rebuilt easier than, say, MiG's model 25...

Somehow though I doubt that's where you're going with this.

It's an old design. The only thing one could do would be to use the name and start from the ground up. Which could be done to beat the pricing and multi-role of the F-35. Otherwise "Avro Arrow" is just a marketing tool. No one is going to design what is essentially an 80s technology aircraft that took flight in the 90s. You can get great used F-16s and Harriers off the shelf.

248 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:18:22pm

So are the Canadian's calling a potential F35 buy Arrows? If that's what this is about, I'm in full agreement. Crappy airframe is still a crappy airframe no matter what the name is.

249 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:21:43pm

re: #248 William Barnett-Lewis

So are the Canadian's calling a potential F35 buy Arrows? If that's what this is about, I'm in full agreement. Crappy airframe is still a crappy airframe no matter what the name is.

No. It would mean developing the Arrow first. It's basically a cross between a Vigilante and an F-106. Really silly. It's an antique.

250 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:23:00pm

It's so Iranian.

//

251 Targetpractice  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:24:56pm

I could see it being made to work, though it would really be nothing more than a modern fighter built in the shape of an Arrow. The innards would be totally modern, the structure would likely need to be reworked to take into mind modern manufacturing techniques, and you'd have to find an engine to power it.

And they're promising them for $9 billion? Yeah, I don't see that happening.

252 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:25:44pm

re: #251 Targetpractice

I could see it being made to work, though it would really be nothing more than a modern fighter built in the shape of an Arrow. The innards would be totally modern, the structure would likely need to be reworked to take into mind modern manufacturing techniques, and you'd have to find an engine to power it.

And they're promising them for $9 billion? Yeah, I don't see that happening.

Sure. Let's build a Starfighter. Makes sense.

253 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:26:18pm

No. Copy that. The conservative government of Canada made the right decision.

254 Kragar  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:26:47pm

re: #252 Gus

Sure. Let's build a Starfighter. Makes sense.

Refueling is a beautiful, natural act and nothing to make fun of.

255 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:27:25pm

I still don't get where this is coming from but I have to crawl off to bed. If someone has a link to this modern day stupidity, I'd appreciate finding it when I get up in the morning.

Thanks!

256 Targetpractice  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:27:37pm

re: #252 Gus

Sure. Let's build a Starfighter. Makes sense.

Theoretically, you could. Remember that the Europeans didn't retire theirs until just recently.

257 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:27:43pm

re: #254 Kragar

Refueling is a beautiful, natural act and nothing to make fun of.

They're trying to sell it because it can fly faster. They also had some goofy video. Thought I was watching Russia Today.

258 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:28:28pm

re: #256 Targetpractice

Theoretically, you could. Remember that the Europeans didn't retire theirs until just recently.

Because no one needs a Starfighter. Dumbest idea for aviation I've ever seen.

259 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:30:56pm

I guess that was from like Russia Canada Today.

260 Targetpractice  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:31:01pm

re: #258 Gus

Because no one needs a Starfighter. Dumbest idea for aviation I've ever seen.

"Need" and "want" are two entirely different things and you know that. If somebody wanted an F-104 really bad and had the money, there would be an exec at Lockheed Martin willing to fill the order.

261 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:35:52pm

re: #260 Targetpractice

"Need" and "want" are two entirely different things and you know that. If somebody wanted an F-104 really bad and had the money, there would be an exec at Lockheed Martin willing to fill the order.

But that's how all of government works. Even the Chicago Board of Education. They're all part of the greasy wheel man.

262 Targetpractice  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:38:12pm

re: #261 Gus

But that's how all of government works. Even the Chicago Board of Education. They're all part of the greasy wheel man.

Of course, it's part of the reason why the Arrow got the axe (literally) back in the day. New government comes in, finds old government's project has been costing serious dollars, ally promises to fulfill same requirement for fraction of the cost, new government agrees and kills old government's project. Eventually, the ally's alternative fails to live up to promise, but ally is quick to offer its own mediocre aircraft at a bargain price.

263 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:41:53pm

re: #262 Targetpractice

Of course, it's part of the reason why the Arrow got the axe (literally) back in the day. New government comes in, finds old government's project has been costing serious dollars, ally promises to fulfill same requirement for fraction of the cost, new government agrees and kills old government's project. Eventually, the ally's alternative fails to live up to promise, but ally is quick to offer its own mediocre aircraft at a bargain price.

I know. And this one was like almost 20 years ago.

264 Targetpractice  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:44:27pm

re: #263 Gus

I know. And this one was like almost 20 years ago.

Longer than that. The Arrow was axed back in '59. The F-15 wasn't even a gleam in a designers eye when this bird got plucked.

265 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:46:20pm

re: #264 Targetpractice

Longer than that. The Arrow was axed back in '59. The F-15 wasn't even a gleam in a designers eye when this bird got plucked.

53 years ago. It's just dumb.

266 Targetpractice  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:47:27pm

re: #265 Gus

53 years ago. It's just dumb.

Well, it has a measure of sense to it. The airframe's proven, it certainly can attain the sort of performance being projected. It's just a matter of modernizing it, something that's certainly not out of the question. I'm just looking at the cost, which I think is outrageously low.

267 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:47:58pm

This is what happens when you let people like Dennis Kucinich in charge of defense.

268 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:48:29pm

re: #266 Targetpractice

Well, it has a measure of sense to it. The airframe's proven, it certainly can attain the sort of performance being projected. It's just a matter of modernizing it, something that's certainly not out of the question. I'm just looking at the cost, which I think is outrageously low.

Sure and so did the Wright Brothers.

269 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:49:20pm

re: #258 Gus

Because no one needs a Starfighter. Dumbest idea for aviation I've ever seen.

In that case you don't know airpower. The idea with the Starfighter was to haul ass and lob a nuclear tipped air to air missile at Soviet bomber formations, hopefully over northern (shh - Canadian) airspace. That's why it was built only for speed and not for dogfighting.
PS, The Mig 25 was supposed to be a cross between a Starfighter and a SR-71. It was built solely for speed and altitude.

270 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:49:43pm

Oh dear.

271 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:50:00pm

re: #269 SteveMcG

In that case you don't know airpower. The idea with the Starfighter was to haul ass and lob a nuclear tipped air to air missile at Soviet bomber formations, hopefully over northern (shh - Canadian) airspace. That's why it was built only for speed and not for dogfighting.
PS, The Mig 25 was supposed to be a cross between a Starfighter and a SR-71. It was built solely for speed and altitude.

Does that come with a magic sword?

272 Targetpractice  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:50:43pm

Gus, is it that it was built back in the transistor era that's got you biased against it?

273 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:52:23pm

re: #272 Targetpractice

I the pilot can fly it without help from a supercomputer, don't even bother me./

274 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:52:31pm

re: #272 Targetpractice

Gus, is it that it was built back in the transistor era that's got you biased against it?

It's funny.

275 Targetpractice  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:56:14pm

re: #274 Gus

It's funny.

It's funny, but it's also got a point to it. There's a lot of pride wrapped up in being able to provide for ones own defense. A lot of folks up north felt the government shredded that pride when it looked to America for its fighter jets. The military folks don't really care, they want the F-35 because it's a neat new toy with all the bangs and whistles that Lockheed promised.

276 Big Joe  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:58:21pm

The only flaw I can see in upgrading it with vectored thrust, super-cruise, fly by wire, modern avionics and weapons systems, etc..., is the thing has a radar cross-section worse than a B-52.

277 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:59:07pm

re: #275 Targetpractice

It's funny, but it's also got a point to it. There's a lot of pride wrapped up in being able to provide for ones own defense. A lot of folks up north felt the government shredded that pride when it looked to America for its fighter jets. The military folks don't really care, they want the F-35 because it's a neat new toy with all the bangs and whistles that Lockheed promised.

That doesn't matter. You can throw out the whole F-35 contract as far as I am concerened. That doesn't mean you bring out some old outdated piece of shit aircraft with combined Canadian nationalism....

It's stupid.

278 SteveMcG  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:59:21pm

re: #276 Big Joe

Which "it" do you mean?

279 Big Joe  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:00:18am

re: #278 SteveMcG

Which "it" do you mean?

CF-105 Avro Arrow

280 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:00:39am

re: #279 Big Joe

CF-105 Avro Arrow

LOL ;)

281 Targetpractice  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:01:06am

re: #277 Gus

That doesn't matter. You can throw out the whole F-35 contract as far as I am concerened. That doesn't mean you bring out some old outdated piece of shit aircraft with combined Canadian nationalism....

It's stupid.

Old, yes. Outdated, debatable. Piece of shit? Hardly.

282 SteveMcG  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:01:21am

BTW, what strategic issue are the Canadians trying to solve? I would think the only thing they can achieve with F-22's or 35's would be participating in somebody else's overseas missions.

283 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:01:35am

re: #281 Targetpractice

Old, yes. Outdated, debatable. Piece of shit? Hardly.

The Starfighter failed in Viet Nam.

284 SteveMcG  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:02:36am

re: #279 Big Joe

CF-105 Avro Arrow

Ew!

285 Targetpractice  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:04:06am

re: #283 Gus

The Starfighter failed in Viet Nam.

That's because the Starfighter's design was a mistake. Kelly Johnson gave the pilots all the speed they wanted, but speed isn't the only factor in a successful fighter. If it was, we'd be flying F-12s today.

286 SteveMcG  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:05:34am

re: #285 Targetpractice

F-104 was purely a bomber interceptor.

287 Targetpractice  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:07:09am

re: #286 SteveMcG

F-104 was purely a bomber interceptor.

As were most fighters of that era. All speed, no maneuverability. Straight up, straight down, as fast you could go. That's why it was labeled as an interceptor, because it was supposed to intercept bombers.

288 SteveMcG  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:07:22am

As an interceptor, the F-104 was not a mistake. It was never intended to mix it up.

289 SteveMcG  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:08:49am

By and large, American fighter design favored power over maneuverability.

290 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:11:37am

re: #289 SteveMcG

By and large, American fighter design favored power over maneuverability.

Turn and burn. What you want IS maneuverability. You're not supposed to run away.

291 Targetpractice  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:11:39am

re: #289 SteveMcG

By and large, American fighter design favored power over maneuverability.

That was because, at the time, they figured the only role of a fighter in a future nuclear was to stop Soviet bombers from getting to American cities. So you wanted a fighter that could get up to altitude quick, close with the incoming bombers, and blow them out of the sky before they were even within sight of land.

Then '57 came and the ICBM seemed to prove that the manned bomber was on the way out.

292 SteveMcG  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:11:46am

From what I've read and heard, energy is the most important advantage in aerial combat, (not counting experience)

293 SteveMcG  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:15:12am

re: #290 Gus

Turn and burn. What you want IS maneuverability. You're not supposed to run away.

It's not about running away. Disengaging and re-engaging on your own terms is different. Also, a more maneuverable plane only has a shot at you for a few seconds if you can pull away.

294 SteveMcG  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:18:02am

re: #290 Gus

Turn and burn. What you want IS maneuverability. You're not supposed to run away.

Once our pilots gained experience, the more maneuverable Mig-17 was no match for the heavier but more powerful F-4 Phantom II.

295 Targetpractice  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:18:14am

re: #293 SteveMcG

It's not about running away. Disengaging and re-engaging on your own terms is different. Also, a more maneuverable plane only has a shot at you for a few seconds if you can pull away.

Which is why the best mixture is a high thrust to weight ratio and low wing loading. You get a fighter that can turn quickly without shedding speed, allowing it to keep its nose on the target even as its accelerating.

296 researchok  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 12:58:00am

Morning, all

297 Mentis Fugit  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 1:09:05am

re: #289 SteveMcG

By and large, American fighter design favored power over maneuverability.

So, a lot like your muscle cars then.

298 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 2:38:05am

Morning Honcos.

299 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 2:43:16am

[Link: www.dnainfo.com...]

Police seized 13 exotic animals, including alligators, bearded dragons, and a tarantula in the raid of a public housing unit Friday, police said.
On Friday afternoon at 1:30 p.m., Animal Care and Control officers removed five pythons and a boa constrictor, as well as two alligators, two bearded dragons, a gecko, a scorpion, and a tarantula, from the fifth-floor apartment of a Crown Heights public housing complex called the Weeksville Houses, police said, as part of an ongoing investigation.

...

In the past, he said, when NYCHA, which runs the public housing complex, wanted to get into the fifth-floor unit to check on the leaks, he said the tenants would bar city workers from entering. "They didn't want to let them in," he said. "Now it all makes sense."

300 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 2:55:52am

Exclusive: U.S. groups helped fund Dutch anti-Islam politician Wilders
The Middle East Forum, a pro-Israeli think tank based in Philadelphia, funded Wilders' legal defense in 2010 and 2011 against Dutch charges of inciting racial hatred, its director Daniel Pipes said. The Middle East Forum has a stated goal, according to its website, of protecting the "freedom of public speech of anti-Islamist authors, promoting American interests in the Middle East and protecting the constitutional order from Middle Eastern threats". It sent money directly to Wilders' lawyer via its Legal Project, Pipes said.
...
David Horowitz, who runs a network of Los Angeles-based conservative groups and a website called FrontPage magazine, said he paid Wilders fees for making two speeches, security costs during student protests and overnight accommodation for his Dutch bodyguards during a 2009 U.S. trip.

...
Wilders has other supporters in the United States, such as Pamela Geller, who runs Stop Islamization of America and has backed Wilders in public statements. Geller remains a supporter. She says she does not provide Wilders with financial assistance.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

301 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 3:08:13am

(Reuters) - The arrest of a cartoonist on sedition charges for drawings that satirise graft in India's political elite rekindled a national debate on freedom of speech on Monday weeks after a clampdown on Twitter in the world's largest democracy.
The arrest followed a private complaint over a series of cartoons, including one that depicts the parliament building as a lavatory buzzing with flies. (link.reuters.com/wyt52t) If found guilty, the satirist faces a three-year prison term.
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

If I got 3 years for every time I called DC a cesspool, I'd never get out.:)

302 Shropshire_Slasher  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 4:23:26am

Morning all!
That Biden the biker pic was priceless, I needed a good laugh.Biden may get tongue tied once in a while, but I don't think he is Uncle Bad-touch. Shit happens. Hit and run today, unfortunately.

303 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 4:53:36am

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

As they should be. The educators are not to be trusted to create such measures, as the measures they create will serve only to present the image they want delivered.

Individual teachers are by and large good people, but when their unions are in it only for the union and its members. How the schools are doing is not a matter of great import for the union.

Yes, but how many subsidies are the dirty energy, record profit energy companies writing for their benefit? Fuck the children, feed the mega rich.

304 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 5:34:00am

re: #303 RayFerd

Fuck the children, feed the mega rich.

The Ryan/Romney Plan solves both problems by feeding the children to the mega rich.

305 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 6:32:57am

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

As they should be. The educators are not to be trusted to create such measures, as the measures they create will serve only to present the image they want delivered.

Individual teachers are by and large good people, but when their unions are in it only for the union and its members. How the schools are doing is not a matter of great import for the union.

re: #169 Dark_Falcon

As they should be. The educators are not to be trusted to create such measures, as the measures they create will serve only to present the image they want delivered.

Individual teachers are by and large good people, but when their unions are in it only for the union and its members. How the schools are doing is not a matter of great import for the union.

You really have no idea what being a teacher involves, do you? Teachers' association/unions are there to protect the teacher, who spent a lot of time and money getting their degree and getting licensed to teach. They are professionals who should be treated as professionals. The associations/unions ensure that teachers cannot be fired because a principal get a stick up his/her butt and simply doesn't like a particular teacher. Yeah, it can be that petty in a school. Unions also bargain for salaries and benefits. No one ever said that unions are in it for the children. That isn't their purpose. Unions/associations take care of certain things so teachers can focus on their jobs and students.

306 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 6:46:18am

Morning, Lizards! Looks like the GOP is going to panic some more:

307 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 6:47:41am

re: #271 Gus

Does that come with a magic sword?

No, we built the magic sword when Grumman (now Northrop-Grumman) rolled out the F-14 Tomcat. Though popularly identified with the Tom Cruise movie Top Gun, the F-14's intended main roll was not dogfighting but high speed, high altitude interception, for which it carried the long-range Phoenix AAM. However, as it happened no Phoenix missiles were ever used in actual combat by the USN, with only a few of the Phoenix missiles supplied to Iran in the 1970's being used against Iraqi aircraft in the Iran-Iraq War.

308 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 6:55:48am

Also, Mr. Starbursts is clearly living in an alternate reality:

309 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 6:59:08am

re: #308 Lidane

Also, Mr. Starbursts is clearly living in an alternate reality:

[Embedded content]

We Dems are falling into a panic--there is this disorienting sensation that we actually have our shit together this time, and we don't know how to react to that.

310 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:02:51am

re: #309 Decatur Deb

We Dems are falling into a panic--there is this strange sensation that we actually have our shit together this time, and we don't know how to react to that.

And we're leading. We tend to do better when we're lagging a point or two behind. I just hope we don't shift into 'protect the lead' mode. It's only be dominating on the issues we'll be able to hold off the money blitz we all know is coming.

311 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:03:10am

Oh, and happy Monday, everyone.

312 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:05:25am
313 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:09:20am

re: #305 Sionainn

No, I just disagree with most the union's premise.

"The associations/unions ensure that teachers cannot be fired because a principal get a stick up his/her butt and simply doesn't like a particular teacher." I object to that, for one. I actually think it's OK if management fires someone they simply don't like, or lack confidence in, and I say that as someone who was once let go from a job for being the hire of someone who was fired after quarreling with upper management.

"Unions/associations take care of certain things so teachers can focus on their jobs and students." In many cases, though, they also defend teachers who have clearly proved themselves incompetent, as well as oppose any measures intended to provide for greater teacher accountability. And while it can well be argued that the union serves its members by doing so, it is also true that those who favor such additional powers for school districts are not ogres, but rather see increased accountability and removal of underperforming teachers as the best way to ensure that students learn.

Schools are about their students, after all. Teachers, like other types of employee in private businesses, ought only to be employed by the school so long as they continue to generate sufficient value for the school. Those who cannot produce the needed value should be dismissed.

314 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:10:12am

re: #310 darthstar

And we're leading. We tend to do better when we're lagging a point or two behind. I just hope we don't shift into 'protect the lead' mode. It's only be dominating on the issues we'll be able to hold off the money blitz we all know is coming.

Disciplining myself to ignore Nate Silver and maintain that notional '2 points behind'. We'll continue GOTV as planned.

315 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:11:22am

Good morning lizards!

Something going on in Detroit this morning....

West Bloomfield officer fatally shot; police in standoff with gunman

West Bloomfield Township — A 12-year veteran of the police department was fatally shot Sunday night at a home near Pontiac Trail and Halsted, prompting a police standoff with gunfire exchanges for more than 11 hours.

According to authorities, police responding 10 p.m. Sunday to a "shots fired" run at a residence on the 4000 block of Forest Edge Lane were met with gunfire, striking one officer, Patrick O'Rourke, 39. O'Rourke, a married father of four, later died after being taken to nearby McLaren Hospital in Pontiac, police said. It was the township's first officer fatality in its history.

According to West Bloomfield Township Police Lt. Timothy Diamond, four to five officers went into the home upon their arrival, believing they were headed to the scene of a suicide. When they got to a bedroom, they called the gunman's name, causing the man to fire shots through the door and wall.

...The gunman is believed to still be inside the home Monday morning, prompting the evacuation of some residents of Forest Edge Lane. Those residents have been moved to the township's hall.

"We are sure he is still in there," said Diamond. "He has fired off several more gunshots."

Township officials hope an armored vehicle will put an end to the standoff Monday.

316 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:14:21am

re: #308 Lidane

Also, Mr. Starbursts is clearly living in an alternate reality:

[Embedded content]

But wouldn't that be the right answer to give the editor of National Review, Something upbeat and combative? Something downbeat and reflective right now would be a mistake. It would depress the party's enthusiasm and the Dems would pounce on it, and who would possibly be able to blame them for doing so? No, better to be defiant and make clear you expect to win. That's the only way to actually win.

317 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:16:53am

re: #312 darthstar

Chuck is an idiot. I have a solution!!!
1. Keep out of reach of children.
2. Make it taste like soap, not candy.
3. If your kid can't tell the difference, stop having kids. You're pissing in the gene pool.

318 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:18:14am

re: #316 Dark_Falcon

But wouldn't that be the right answer to give the editor of National Review, Something upbeat and combative?

Upbeat and combative is one thing. Delusional is another. All of the numbers that are emerging suggest a huge lag for the Romney campaign.

319 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:20:02am

re: #313 Dark_Falcon

No, I just disagree with most the union's premise.

"The associations/unions ensure that teachers cannot be fired because a principal get a stick up his/her butt and simply doesn't like a particular teacher." I object to that, for one. I actually think it's OK if management fires someone they simply don't like, or lack confidence in, and I say that as someone who was once let go from a job for being the hire of someone who was fired after quarreling with upper management.

"Unions/associations take care of certain things so teachers can focus on their jobs and students." In many cases, though, they also defend teachers who have clearly proved themselves incompetent, as well as oppose any measures intended to provide for greater teacher accountability. And while it can well be argued that the union serves its members by doing so, it is also true that those who favor such additional powers for school districts are not ogres, but rather see increased accountability and removal of underperforming teachers as the best way to ensure that students learn.

Schools are about their students, after all. Teachers, like other types of employee in private businesses, ought only to be employed by the school so long as they continue to generate sufficient value for the school. Those who cannot produce the needed value should be dismissed.

Teachers don't have a problem with being held accountable. What they do have a problem with is being held accountable for things that are beyond their control, and that is what most of the non-educators don't seem to understand. There are already systems in place to get rid of rotten teachers. It does require some effort on the part of the school administrator, however. Just like in any major business, there is documentation required and progressive discipline before one can be fired. The fact is that many principals simply can't be bothered. Additionally, there aren't as many "bad" teachers out there as some would have us believe. It's much easier to blame the teacher than it is to blame the parents and/or students.

My husband was part of a "turn around" school in our district. His school was deemed extremely low performing. They had to remove at least half of the staff and required the rest to reapply if they wanted to stay. He chose to stay. I find that to be a ridiculous way to go about things. Instead of pretending that replacing all of the staff will turn a school around, they should have simply switched the staff from the highest performing school with the staff from the lowest performing school and see what would happen. I could guarantee you that the students at the highest performing school would still be the highest performing and the students from the lowest performing school would still be the lowest performing.

320 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:23:21am

re: #318 Lidane

Upbeat and combative is one thing. Delusional is another. All of the numbers that are emerging suggest a huge lag for the Romney campaign.

Only if the convention bounce persists, and they tend not to. The bump-up is masking a real, slow, rise I hope. Conversely, when the bounce falls away those who watch too carefully will feel an unwarranted decline. Maintain an even strain.

321 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:24:02am

Gah, I should not start the morning reading stuff like this.

322 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:24:45am

re: #320 Decatur Deb

Only if the convention bounce persists, and they tend not to. The bump-up is masking a real, slow, rise I hope. Conversely, when the bounce falls away those who watch too carefully will feel an unwarranted decline. Maintain an even strain.

It's the neurons.

//

323 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:27:59am

re: #321 Gus

Gah, I should not start the morning reading stuff like this.

Vagina Ideologues.

324 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:28:53am

re: #319 Sionainn

Teachers don't have a problem with being held accountable. What they do have a problem with is being held accountable for things that are beyond their control, and that is what most of the non-educators don't seem to understand. There are already systems in place to get rid of rotten teachers. It does require some effort on the part of the school administrator, however. Just like in any major business, there is documentation required and progressive discipline before one can be fired. The fact is that many principals simply can't be bothered. Additionally, there aren't as many "bad" teachers out there as some would have us believe. It's much easier to blame the teacher than it is to blame the parents and/or students.

My husband was part of a "turn around" school in our district. His school was deemed extremely low performing. They had to remove at least half of the staff and required the rest to reapply if they wanted to stay. He chose to stay. I find that to be a ridiculous way to go about things. Instead of pretending that replacing all of the staff will turn a school around, they should have simply switched the staff from the highest performing school with the staff from the lowest performing school and see what would happen. I could guarantee you that the students at the highest performing school would still be the highest performing and the students from the lowest performing school would still be the lowest performing.

Reply to bolded portion; Ah, but union work rules generally forbid this sort of practice, as would the middle and upper-middle class families whose children are most likely to be found in larger numbers at the highest performing schools.

325 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:30:24am

re: #321 Gus

Gah, I should not start the morning reading stuff like this.

Just don't read anything Naomi Wolf writes. She's a buffoon, who tries to sound important, only to end up sounding silly.

326 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:30:35am

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

Reply to bolded portion; Ah, but union work rules generally forbid this sort of practice, as would the middle and upper-middle class families whose children are most likely to be found in larger numbers at the highest performing schools.

Oh, I'm sure that it would have been possible, particularly in order to prove that it's not the teachers.

327 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:31:04am

re: #323 Decatur Deb

Vagina Ideologues.

Or in this case, "making shit up." Should have stopped at "Naomi Wolf." Still crazy after all these years. The sad part is that many will eat this pseudo-science crap up.

328 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:31:29am

This should be fun:

329 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:31:46am

re: #325 Dark_Falcon

Just don't read anything Naomi Wolf writes. She's a buffoon, who ties to sound important, only to end up sounding silly.

But, but, it's sciency so it must be true!

330 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:34:44am

re: #328 Lidane

This should be fun:

[Embedded content]

Check out the "Presidential Dashboard" to the right, too.

331 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:35:18am
332 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:38:48am

re: #321 Gus

Gah, I should not start the morning reading stuff like this.

If I'm going to read anything about evolutionary psychology or neuroscience, I prefer my authors to have some actual credentials in the field. Wolf has a degree in English Lit from Yale. Thanks, but no.

I've never liked her books. I tried reading The Beauty Myth and Fire With Fire and found both of them simplistic and nonsensical, even when I was in my 20's. I've never connected with her work at all.

333 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:39:56am

re: #315 NJDhockeyfan

Good morning lizards!

Something going on in Detroit this morning....

West Bloomfield officer fatally shot; police in standoff with gunman

That is a very upscale neighborhood, far from "The Hood"

334 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:41:30am

re: #332 Lidane

If I'm going to read anything about evolutionary psychology or neuroscience, I prefer my authors to have some actual credentials in the field. Wolf has a degree in English Lit from Yale. Thanks, but no.

I've never liked her books. I tried reading The Beauty Myth and Fire With Fire and found both of them simplistic and nonsensical, even when I was in my 20's. I've never connected with her work at all.

Neuro-babble. Coming up next. John Pilger.

335 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:43:40am

re: #334 Gus

Neuro-babble. Coming up next. John Pilger.

Seriously. You might as well read Jenny McCarthy for medical advice. Wolf's books are about as useful.

336 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:45:23am

re: #326 Sionainn

Oh, I'm sure that it would have been possible, particularly in order to prove that it's not the teachers.

I very much doubt it. Many of the teachers simply would not accept the transfer, and frankly they wouldn't have to. Teachers from a very high performing school as you mentioned could simply quit and find another high performing school that would take them. Nor would that school's parents accept such a trade. At the last, they'd simply make clear that the High and the Middle will not make such a concession to the Low.

337 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:45:57am

Scary moment in SC this weekend...

Cops: Woman pointed gun at Rep. Trey Gowdy

A woman was arrested Sunday evening for threatening freshman Rep. Trey Gowdy with a gun, according to police.

The South Carolina Republican was in the parking lot of his church in Spartanburg waiting for his daughter when Gloria Yvonne Brackett pointed a gun in his direction, a police report said.

Brackett asked Gowdy to “stop following her,” the police report says. Gowdy replied that he wasn’t following her but was merely waiting for his daughter. After another similar interaction, Gowdy put his car in reverse, and Brackett chased the vehicle on foot. He drove directly to the police department and was escorted back to the church by police officers to pick up his daughter.

Brackett, 52, of Jonesboro, Ga., was jailed on charges that she was carrying the weapon illegally, according to local media reports.
There’s no evidence that Gowdy knew Brackett.

338 kirkspencer  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:46:36am

re: #324 Dark_Falcon

Reply to bolded portion; Ah, but union work rules generally forbid this sort of practice, as would the middle and upper-middle class families whose children are most likely to be found in larger numbers at the highest performing schools.

No, the union rules do not prevent this sort of practice, except in cases where the subject requires additional certifications or qualifications.

339 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:47:07am

Michael Ramirez has the Clint Eastwood spirit.

340 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:47:18am

re: #332 Lidane

If I'm going to read anything about evolutionary psychology or neuroscience, I prefer my authors to have some actual credentials in the field. Wolf has a degree in English Lit from Yale. Thanks, but no.

I've never liked her books. I tried reading The Beauty Myth and Fire With Fire and found both of them simplistic and nonsensical, even when I was in my 20's. I've never connected with her work at all.

Didn't she come up with some wild, complicated conspiracy theory about how the Bush administration was stalking her because she knew the "troof" about something or other?

341 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:47:40am

re: #335 Lidane

Seriously. You might as well read Jenny McCarthy for medical advice. Wolf's books are about as useful.

Ed Yong on the latest Naomiisms.

342 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:48:06am

re: #338 kirkspencer

No, the union rules do not prevent this sort of practice, except in cases where the subject requires additional certifications or qualifications.

They often do. Many union contracts have seniority rules that have such effects in practice.

343 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:49:15am

re: #337 NJDhockeyfan

Scary moment in SC this weekend...

Cops: Woman pointed gun at Rep. Trey Gowdy

I'm glad no one was hurt.

344 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:54:25am

re: #336 Dark_Falcon

I very much doubt it. Many of the teachers simply would not accept the transfer, and frankly they wouldn't have to. Teachers from a very high performing school as you mentioned could simply quit and find another high performing school that would take them. Nor would that school's parents accept such a trade. At the last, they'd simply make clear that the High and the Middle will not make such a concession to the Low.

I'd say "good luck" to those teachers. We are one of the largest school districts in the country (not in a state where there seem to be different school districts 15 miles down the road). Teachers can be and are transferred to other schools when need be. The teachers' association didn't have a say in the teachers being removed from my husband's school because those teachers were guaranteed jobs at other schools in the district.

The parents in this school district don't have any power or say, either, so it really wouldn't matter if the parents got upset because the teachers were moved. Frankly, I think some of the best teachers are those who choose the at-risk students and schools. They like the challenge and the reward of having a positive impact on the lives of their students. It's time we stop demonizing them as being the problem.

345 kirkspencer  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:54:30am

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

They often do. Many union contracts have seniority rules that have such effects in practice.

Have you read many teacher contracts, especially as drafted with union assistance? I have, and I'm going to repeat myself: the union does not have rules that would have prevented the district from swapping the teachers between a pair of schools for a year.

The teachers would have had the right to refuse the contract, the parents would have screamed, but there are no rules preventing it.

346 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:54:48am

re: #340 Learned Mother of Zion

Didn't she come up with some wild, complicated conspiracy theory about how the Bush administration was stalking her because she knew the "troof" about something or other?

No idea. I wrote her off permanently years before that.

347 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:56:21am

re: #342 Dark_Falcon

They often do. Many union contracts have seniority rules that have such effects in practice.

Seniority rules didn't have a thing to do with the teachers being forced to reapply to my husband's school.

348 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:56:42am

From the New Statesman:

Naomi Wolf's "Vagina" is full of bad science about the brain
Given that she's written a book about the vagina, Wolf seems to mention the brain a lot.

Naomi Wolf has a new book out. Here’s an extract. It’s proven controversial. I’m not going to discuss Wolf’s politics, nor will I mention the famous "pasta incident" as I don’t think I can write anything sensible about that event. I am however a neuroscientist, and for a book about the vagina, Wolf seems to mention the brain a lot.

Cont.

349 kirkspencer  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:57:40am

Dark, your total abhorrence of all things union is leading you astray here. The majority of your arguments boil down to the unions being the number one reason for the problems, never mind all the studies (in both union and non-union situations) that indicate the two biggest predictors of overall student performance are money and parental involvement.

350 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:58:26am

Another politician has been arrested for corruption, this time in NJ...

FBI arrests Trenton, New Jersey, Mayor Tony Mack in corruption case

TRENTON, NJ -
FBI agents arrested Trenton, New Jersey, Mayor Tony Mack in connection with a corruption case Monday, a spokeswoman said.

Mack and at least one other person were arrested early Monday, according to Barbara Woodruff, a spokeswoman for the agency's Newark field office.
A corruption investigation has been under way for at least two years, Woodruff said.

The arrests came less than two months after agents raided the homes of Mack, his brother and a campaign supporter, then raided Trenton's City Hall the next day.

Mack, 46, responded to the July raids by saying he had "not violated the public trust in any way, nor have I violated any of my public duties."

A Democrat who began his term in July 2010, he has been beleaguered by questions about public finance and accusations of cronyism.

351 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 7:59:25am
352 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:00:28am

re: #15 Decatur Deb

Yup. Kirk Cameron fangirl.

Speaking of Kirk...

353 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:00:45am

re: #351 Lidane

[Embedded content]

Damn you!

[Shakes fist]

354 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:01:32am

I'm not saying it's aliens but it's aliens.

355 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:04:11am

This one is about Joesph Farah. Seems as though we're surrounded by quacks, charlatans and conspiracy theorists. Everywhere. And it sells! [Facepalm]

356 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:05:08am

Police: Michael Smeriglio accidentally shoots off his penis and testicle; friend arrested on drug charge
[Link: www.wtsp.com...]

Well guess we don't have to worry about him reproducing.

357 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:05:50am

Naomi Wolf, Kirk Cameron, and Joseph Farah all within 30 minutes of each.

I need some medicine.

//

358 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:07:28am

re: #356 Cannadian Club Akbar

Police: Michael Smeriglio accidentally shoots off his penis and testicle; friend arrested on drug charge
[Link: www.wtsp.com...]

Well guess we don't have to worry about him reproducing.

I see they got to the bottom of things! They found marijuana in the house!

359 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:08:55am

re: #356 Cannadian Club Akbar

Police: Michael Smeriglio accidentally shoots off his penis and testicle; friend arrested on drug charge
[Link: www.wtsp.com...]

Well guess we don't have to worry about him reproducing.

Darwin Award nominee.

360 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:09:15am

re: #358 Gus

I see they got to the bottom of things! They found marijuana in the house!

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say one should make sure the gun isn't loaded before cleaning it.

361 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:09:31am

re: #355 Gus

In a marketplace of ideas, only the truly nonsensical and crazy ones stand out.

You can't market normal ideas because they don't sell. / I wish it was irony, but that seems to be the general trend.

362 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:11:03am

OH NOES! TEH WARZ ON WHITE MANS!

363 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:11:46am

MAKE IT STOP!!! TEH CRAZY!!!
Man High on PCP Falls Out of Car, Gets Run Over Then Tries to Abduct Baby
[Link: fox4kc.com...]

364 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:12:40am

re: #350 NJDhockeyfan

Mayor Mack and 6 others were arrested on corruption stemming from $119k of bribes on a parking garage scheme. Other charges may be forthcoming.

Mack's been bad news for Trenton since he was first elected. He fired competent city managers and replaced them with cronies who didn't know what they were doing, spent money on signage for a local park, even though the city doesn't have funds to cover basic services.

Mack's claimed that there's a vendetta against him, but the only vendetta seems to be Mack and raiding the public till to benefit himself and his family/friends.

We'll know more about the charges this afternoon.

365 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:13:43am

re: #361 lawhawk

In a marketplace of ideas, only the truly nonsensical and crazy ones stand out.

You can't market normal ideas because they don't sell. / I wish it was irony, but that seems to be the general trend.

Just like today's politics. Sadly we're going quicker down the gutter. Or at least it seems sometimes. I just wondered if Carl Sagan could attain such popularity today. One in which people's general world view is based on watching 3 hours of nonsensical fiction every single day of the week.

366 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:15:27am

re: #362 Learned Mother of Zion

OH NOES! TEH WARZ ON WHITE MANS!

[Embedded content]

Wut? Now he's trolling. I used to think Matt Lewis was, well, rational.

367 lostlakehiker  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:15:54am

The danger that teachers will be judged deficient just because their students have a track record of "slow" is real. But there is an answer.

Instead of judging a teacher, or a school, by the results alone, judge them by the difference between the progress the same students made last year, and this year's progress. Or judge them by some model that takes into account everything that's known about each of their students (do they already know English, what sort of home life do they have, any standardized test results, parental occupation, just every last thing that's correlated with student progress) and spits out an expected amount of progress. We know a lot about modeling and validation; this can be done. (It can even be done without breaching student confidentiality---no one needs to know how much Johnny might have been expected to learn---just, averaged over the class as a whole, how did Mr. Rogers' charges do, compared to what typically happens given his class' incoming stats?)

Now, look at how the teacher does compared to what might reasonably have been expected. Teachers who, by that measure, outperform most of their peers, are probably good teachers even if their students don't match Silver Springs, Maryland results.

Either approach gets around the problem that the best way to look like a good teacher is to get the good students.

368 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:17:59am

re: #365 Gus

Just like today's politics. Sadly we're going quicker down the gutter. Or at least it seems sometimes. I just wondered if Carl Sagan could attain such popularity today. One in which people's general world view is based on watching 3 hours of nonsensical fiction every single day of the week.

We're not going down the gutter, we're losing our illusions. Things were never what they were.

369 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:18:26am

re: #364 lawhawk

Mayor Mack and 6 others were arrested on corruption stemming from $119k of bribes on a parking garage scheme. Other charges may be forthcoming.

Mack's been bad news for Trenton since he was first elected. He fired competent city managers and replaced them with cronies who didn't know what they were doing, spent money on signage for a local park, even though the city doesn't have funds to cover basic services.

Mack's claimed that there's a vendetta against him, but the only vendetta seems to be Mack and raiding the public till to benefit himself and his family/friends.

We'll know more about the charges this afternoon.

You have to wonder how these politicians think they can get away with all this corruption. Very large egos perhaps? Sooner or later they always get caught.

370 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:20:31am

re: #368 Decatur Deb

We're not going down the gutter, we're losing our illusions. Things were never what they were.

Dwight D. Eisenhower:

Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.

371 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:20:42am

re: #368 Decatur Deb

We're not going down the gutter, we're losing our illusions. Things were never what they were.

I believe things "were what they were" but that period was just a brief span in the last part of the 20th century.

372 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:21:48am

re: #370 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Dwight D. Eisenhower:

President Eiesenhower, meet Yogi Berra.

373 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:23:07am

re: #371 Gus

I believe things "were what they were" but that period was just a brief span in the last part of the 20th century.

Nope, not even then. (They aren't what they are, either.) Coming to realize that is a good thing.

374 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:23:53am

re: #373 Decatur Deb

Nope, not even then. (They aren't what they are, either.) Coming to realize that is a good thing.

OK, so the Republican Party of 10 years ago was just like the TGOP of today. Nothing's changed.

//

375 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:24:47am

re: #374 Gus

OK, so the Republican Party of 10 years ago was just like the TGOP of today. Nothing's changed.

//

The things I hate about the TPGOP were there in the JBSGOP.

376 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:27:11am

re: #367 lostlakehiker

The danger that teachers will be judged deficient just because their students have a track record of "slow" is real. But there is an answer.

Instead of judging a teacher, or a school, by the results alone, judge them by the difference between the progress the same students made last year, and this year's progress. Or judge them by some model that takes into account everything that's known about each of their students (do they already know English, what sort of home life do they have, any standardized test results, parental occupation, just every last thing that's correlated with student progress) and spits out an expected amount of progress. We know a lot about modeling and validation; this can be done. (It can even be done without breaching student confidentiality---no one needs to know how much Johnny might have been expected to learn---just, averaged over the class as a whole, how did Mr. Rogers' charges do, compared to what typically happens given his class' incoming stats?)

Now, look at how the teacher does compared to what might reasonably have been expected. Teachers who, by that measure, outperform most of their peers, are probably good teachers even if their students don't match Silver Springs, Maryland results.

Either approach gets around the problem that the best way to look like a good teacher is to get the good students.

That makes complete and total sense...which is probably why it is never mentioned as an option to evaluating teachers.

377 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:27:35am

re: #375 Decatur Deb

The things I hate about the TPGOP were there in the JBSGOP.

They got the boot which lasted about 20 years. Then why do liberals keep bringing up meme's akin to "even Ronald Reagan" was better than... Otherwise people should stop saying that and instead say Reagan was no better. There's a great deal of nostalgia and it affects people from all walks of life.

378 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:29:19am

re: #377 Gus

They got the boot which lasted about 20 years. Then why do liberals keep bringing up meme's akin to "even Ronald Reagan" was better than... Otherwise people should stop saying that and instead say Reagan was no better. There's a great deal of nostalgia and it affect people from all walks of life.

I have never said a good word about the refrigerator salesman. If I do nostalgia it's for Truman and RFK.

379 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:30:11am

re: #378 Decatur Deb

I have never said a good word about the refrigerator salesman. If I do nostalgia it's for Truman and RFK.

Here's another one: this is not your grandfather's GOP. Is it?

380 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:30:16am

Ahmadinejad to address UN on Yom Kippur

WASHINGTON – A PR duel will be in two and a half weeks during the United Nations General Assembly discussions in New York between Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

The Iranian leader is expected to address the GA on the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur, while Netanyahu will speak the next day after arriving in the United States.

381 Interesting Times  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:30:32am

re: #377 Gus

They got the boot which lasted about 20 years.

Maybe they didn't so much get the boot as "sorry, can't implement your agenda right now. Give it a few decades and a few billionaires..."

382 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:31:05am

BBL

383 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:32:19am

re: #379 Gus

Here's another one: this is not your grandfather's GOP. Is it?

At its core it's Herbert Hoover's GOP. The badcrazy was always there, sometimes covered by a bit of Goldwater/Buckley gentility.

384 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:33:10am

re: #381 Interesting Times

Maybe they didn't so much get the boot as "sorry, can't implement your agenda right now. Give it a few decades and a few billionaires..."

William F. Buckley helped kick them all out. They returned with the help of Dick Armey and the Tea Party. Meanwhile people sit in front of their TVs watching countless hours of Fox News programming. This is another new phenomenon.

385 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:33:58am

re: #369 NJDhockeyfan

Ego, and that they always seem to think that they're smarter than everyone else. Or that the amounts of money involved aren't big enough to trigger interest. Whatever it is, there's a disturbing amount of corruption in NJ, but it's better than it has been in a while.

Over in NYS, they'd be a whole lot better off eliminate the fiction of being in the legislature as a part-time gig. Make it full time and eliminate the ability to work at other jobs the rest of the year - that would eliminate potential conflicts of interest, etc. After all, you could have someone working at a law firm or associated with a lobbying firm that does business with the state and gets to vote on issues that affect the outcomes of business decisions.

That has to change, but it wont because too many members, including the Speaker, benefit from the current untenable arrangement.

386 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:34:40am

re: #383 Decatur Deb

At its core it's Herbert Hoover's GOP. The badcrazy was always there, sometimes covered by a bit of Goldwater/Buckley gentility.

Right but people got that in small dosages. Today it's a steady stream 24/7 with cable and the internet.

387 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:35:02am

Former GITMO resident assumes room temperature.
Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula's second in command killed, Yemen says

Al-Shihri was once held by the United States at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. In November 2007 he was transferred to Saudi custody, and underwent a program designed to lead people away from terrorism.

But despite travel restrictions requiring him to stay in Saudi Arabia, he left for Yemen, where he joined another former Guantanamo detainee to assume leadership of AQAP, the U.S. House Armed Services Committee said in a document about detainees who resume terrorism.

388 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:37:49am

re: #386 Gus

Right but people got that in small dosages. Today it's a steady stream 24/7 with cable and the internet.

Yeah, but that's technology, and we are getting good at it too.

389 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:38:02am

re: #387 Killgore Trout

Former GITMO resident assumes room temperature.
Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula's second in command killed, Yemen says

Plus 6 more. Sweet!

The military statement said al-Shihri was killed along with "six other terrorists who were with him."

390 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:41:21am

re: #389 NJDhockeyfan

Plus 6 more. Sweet!

Romney/Ryan would have killed 12, in under 3 hours.

391 celticdragon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:42:40am

re: #359 Learned Mother of Zion

Darwin Award nominee.

Maybe he was trying out a low cost form of sex reassignment surgery...without anesthetic...

392 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:44:12am

re: #390 Decatur Deb

Romney/Ryan would have killed 12, in under 3 hours.

While climbing 38 of Colorado's peaks as they juggle chainsaws and ride unicycles.

393 celticdragon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:45:14am

re: #390 Decatur Deb

Romney/Ryan would have killed 12, in under 3 hours.

On half of the highest mountains in Pakistan all at once...

394 celticdragon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:45:53am

re: #392 Lidane

While climbing 38 of Colorado's peaks as they juggle chainsaws and ride unicycles.

You beat me to that one, lol.

395 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:46:04am

Boom!

396 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:46:35am

re: #143 Gus

I don't take PPP too seriously. They seem to be gleefully reporting the 15% number of Republicans who answered that Romney was responsible for the death of OBL. Then they proceeded to get into a squabble with Jennifer Rubin on Twitter which is rather unprofessional for a polling outfit. I consider them the opposite of Rasmussen only for a younger audience.

Recap.

397 dragonath  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:49:26am

re: #383 Decatur Deb

At its core it's Herbert Hoover's GOP. The badcrazy was always there, sometimes covered by a bit of Goldwater/Buckley gentility.

Ya know, the funny thing is that Hoover was considered the last of the "progressive" conservatives.

But yeah, the Republicans always had that strain, a kind of Pinkerton mentality.

398 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:49:53am

re: #390 Decatur Deb

Romney/Ryan would have killed 12, in under 3 hours.

If Chuck Norris was involved 15 would have killed themselves, simply because of Chuck Norris being involved.
///

399 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:51:00am

re: #397 dragonath

Ya know, the funny thing is that Hoover was considered the last of the "progressive" conservatives.

But yeah, the Republicans always had that strain, a kind of Pinkerton mentality.

Despite the Great Depression Hoover still had a very good reputation as an administrator. Both FDR and Truman tapped him for heading up projects.

400 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:51:54am

re: #398 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

If Chuck Norris was involved 15 would have killed themselves, simply because of Chuck Norris being involved.
///

And Clint would nail the invisible ones with an invisible .44.

401 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:54:31am

Work to do--BBL

402 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 8:55:47am

President Truman had one of the lowest popularity ratings in modern history. The high point was dropping the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki thus bringing the war with Japan to almost a complete halt was the highest. It went down from there since America was very tired of wars after WWII and despite popular belief the Korean War was extremely unpopular in the USA.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

404 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:05:21am

re: #402 Gus

President Truman had one of the lowest popularity ratings in modern history. The high point was dropping the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki thus bringing the war with Japan to almost a complete halt was the highest. It went down from there since America was very tired of wars after WWII and despite popular belief the Korean War was extremely unpopular in the USA.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Truman got handed a very large plate of tough decisions. And not a lot of help from across the aisle in Congress. Cold War starting up, China falling to Mao and the Communists, demobilizing a large armed force and militarized industry without falling right back into a depression, various continuing social issues, and the various geopolitical issues like the Middle East, independence movements in the various former (or soon to be former) European colonies, the European allies being essentially broke and trying to recover from war damage, etc. etc. etc.

405 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:08:01am

Beware the Soviet Union!11!
-Romney camp

406 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:08:07am

Ward Churchill Loses Appeal to Win Back CU Job

A former University of Colorado professor who compared some Sept. 11 victims with a Nazi has lost his appeal to get his job back.

The Colorado Supreme Court on Monday upheld a lower court decision against Ward Churchill.

The court said that the Denver District Court was right to direct a verdict in favor of the university and to find that the school was entitled to "quasi-judicial immunity."

A CU spokesman says the ruling was a victory for faculty members who follow the rules.

A Churchill attorney says he'll appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Churchill's 2007 termination came after an essay he wrote described some victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks as "little Eichmanns," a reference to Adolf Eichmann, the Nazi leader who helped orchestrate the Holocaust.

Heh. Douchebag.

407 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:10:34am

re: #406 NJDhockeyfan

Ward Churchill Loses Appeal to Win Back CU Job

Heh. Douchebag.

He should try selling his "original" paintings at a flea market to make some money..

408 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:11:19am

re: #405 Varek Raith

Beware the Soviet Union!11!
-Romney camp

More GOP blaming the unions for everything!
///

409 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:12:22am

re: #408 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

More GOP blaming the unions for everything!
///

This is just amusingly sad.
Romney Camp Once Again Warns Of ‘Soviet’ Threat

3 times no less!
Lol.

410 b_sharp  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:13:39am

re: #409 Varek Raith

This is just amusingly sad.
Romney Camp Once Again Warns Of ‘Soviet’ Threat

3 times no less!
Lol.

Invisible page.

411 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:13:44am

re: #406 NJDhockeyfan

Ward Churchill Loses Appeal to Win Back CU Job

Heh. Douchebag.

I forgot all about him. I'm kind of surprised he didn't try to make it back into the spotlight with the Occupy movement.

412 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:16:05am

re: #410 b_sharp

Invisible page.

Derp! Fixed
[Link: 2012.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

413 GunstarGreen  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:16:22am

re: #406 NJDhockeyfan

re: #411 Killgore Trout

There any links to the offending essay?

414 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:19:45am

If I were voting for Mitt, I wouldn't wanna talk about him or his 'policies' either.
;)

415 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:20:01am

re: #413 GunstarGreen

re: #411 Killgore Trout

There any links to the offending essay?

"Some People Push Back": On the Justice of Roosting Chickens

416 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:21:29am

re: #412 Varek Raith

Derp! Fixed
[Link: 2012.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

Oh boy. When Russia here's crap like that it's not good. Regardless of Russia's BS WRT to Syria and Iran.

417 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:23:12am

Seriously.
Ward Churchill?
I don't care about that prick.
I'm more interested in important stuff.
Like the 2012 election.

418 GunstarGreen  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:23:18am

re: #415 Killgore Trout

Thanks. Wanted to read over it before formulating a response.

419 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:23:20am

re: #415 Killgore Trout

"Some People Push Back": On the Justice of Roosting Chickens

Here is that part...

...That they waited so long to do so is, notwithstanding the 1993 action at the WTC, more than anything a testament to their patience and restraint.

They did not license themselves to "target innocent civilians."

There is simply no argument to be made that the Pentagon personnel killed on September 11 fill that bill. The building and those inside comprised military targets, pure and simple. As to those in the World Trade Center . . .

Well, really. Let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break. They formed a technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire – the "mighty engine of profit" to which the military dimension of U.S. policy has always been enslaved – and they did so both willingly and knowingly. Recourse to "ignorance" – a derivative, after all, of the word "ignore" – counts as less than an excuse among this relatively well-educated elite. To the extent that any of them were unaware of the costs and consequences to others of what they were involved in – and in many cases excelling at – it was because of their absolute refusal to see. More likely, it was because they were too busy braying, incessantly and self-importantly, into their cell phones, arranging power lunches and stock transactions, each of which translated, conveniently out of sight, mind and smelling distance, into the starved and rotting flesh of infants. If there was a better, more effective, or in fact any other way of visiting some penalty befitting their participation upon the little Eichmanns inhabiting the sterile sanctuary of the twin towers, I'd really be interested in hearing about it.

420 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:23:23am

re: #416 Gus

Oh boy. When Russia here's crap like that it's not good. Regardless of Russia's BS WRT to Syria and Iran.

These people are seriously set in their ways. It's been twenty-one years since the USSR existed.

421 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:25:53am

re: #417 Varek Raith

Seriously.
Ward Churchill?
I don't care about that prick.
I'm more interested in important stuff.
Like the 2012 election.

It's just a recent news story. Unlike the 2012 election news story which has been going on since 2008.
///

422 dragonath  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:26:03am

Truman was probably the closest thing to a normal (in the best sense of the word) person we ever got in the White House. He wasn't afraid to speak his mind, even if it involved members of his own party.

I tried to look after Indian rights all the time I was president. Whenever any bill came up that looked to me like a new attempt to exploit them, it got vetoed. You'll find, I think, that at least three such bills, were vetoed when I was president, because they were trying to take away the few lands that the Indians had left to them. I think one of them even affected old Chief Joseph's settlement in Montana, the place where he finally ended up. And I vetoed a bill that would have taken away everything the Indians in Nevada had left if Senator Pat McCarran of that state had gotten his bill through. McCarran was a man I disliked and distrusted when I was in office, both as a human being and as a public official, and this was typical of him, I'm afraid; he was trying to arrange it so that all the Indian lands around Lake Tahoe were turned loose for settlement. It was the old business all over again: just take it away from the Indians. But I vetoed it, and saved the Indians from that much, anyway.

McCarran was also the moving force behind the discriminatory Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, which was also vetoed by Truman but overrode.

423 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:26:05am

re: #420 Obdicut

These people are seriously set in their ways. It's been twenty-one years since the USSR existed.

He should know better.

Richard S. Williamson
Princeton University
University of Virginia School of Law
Special Envoy to Sudan - Current

424 A Mom Anon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:26:08am

re: #413 GunstarGreen

You should be able to find it online.

I actually am one of the few people in these conversations who have read a couple of his books. A Little Matter of Genocide and Pacifism as Pathology. The first is about the elimination of American Indians from Columbus forward. The second is about peace movements and he takes the side that they aren't effective,because they follow the rules of the government that are the cause the issues being protested. Don't agree with the guy,hate that he's been found to be a fraud about some stuff,but don't think he totally deserves to be entirely written off over one essay that most people have never read.(edit to add:) I actually have 2 more of his books,Kill the Indian Save the Man about the horrific institution of religious based Reservation Schools and the one with the same name as the essay called On the Justice of Roosting Chickens. The latter is more about the wisdom of our military scope and involvement world wide than it is anything else. Again,don't agree with the guy about alot,but not all of his points are invalid just because he was a dick about 9/11.

Should a college professor be fired because of their political opinions,as long as they do the job they were hired to do and aren't steering their students away from factual information?

425 Kronocide  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:26:20am

Clutch them pearls.

426 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:26:24am

re: #415 Killgore Trout

"Some People Push Back": On the Justice of Roosting Chickens

That's kind of a timely reminder of why many people turned away from the left after 9-11. Although an extreme example that kind of thought was all too common. At the time I was working with people who thought like that.The recent but brief resurgence of OWS with its core of Bradley Manning fans, anti-drone idiots, anarchists and communists was a reminder to me that the left still retains its extremist elements and will continue to be susceptible to their gravitational pull.

427 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:27:30am

re: #426 Killgore Trout

That's kind of a timely reminder of why many people turned away from the left after 9-11. Although an extreme example that kind of thought was all too common. At the time I was working with people who thought like that.The recent but brief resurgence of OWS with its core of Bradley Manning fans, anti-drone idiots, anarchists and communists was a reminder to me that the left still retains its extremist elements and will continue to be susceptible to their gravitational pull.

At least they don't control a major political party.

428 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:27:40am

Greetings all
I'm not the only aviation geek around here, so I'm paging a very nice blog series being done by a pal of mine from Northrup. He got official approval to publish what were internal articles.

429 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:29:09am

re: #427 Varek Raith

At least they don't control a major political party.

Thankfully they don't.

430 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:29:41am

Look, I expect fringe elements in politics. It's human nature.
What I don't expect is the same fringe nutters to have actual power. Like they do in the GOP.

431 A Mom Anon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:32:56am

re: #429 Killgore Trout

Lefties have always had that far left goofy contingent. They've never been allowed to run the show though. I think they do serve a purpose,they bring up valid issues of war and peace,poverty and fairness,etc. The influence is indirect,as it should be unless it's just off the wall and then the rest of us roll our eyes and move on anyway.

432 Killgore Trout  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:34:06am

re: #424 A Mom Anon

Should a college professor be fired because of their political opinions,as long as they do the job they were hired to do and aren't steering their students away from factual information?

It's a fine line with the general concept of academic freedom but he wasn't tenured so they are free to fire him. His plagiarism and academic fraud didn't help his case. He did advocate for terrorism and justified the killing of innocent civilians. Not too dissimilar to the problem with the anti-Israel problems at universities in California. It's dangerous to have professors who support or justify terrorism educating young adults. Not many parents are going to want to send their kids to a school that hires pro-terrorist teachers.

433 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:35:19am

re: #409 Varek Raith

This is just amusingly sad.
Romney Camp Once Again Warns Of ‘Soviet’ Threat

3 times no less!
Lol.

Has anyone told these morons that the Soviet Union dissolved decades ago and that the Cold War is over?

434 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:35:53am

I think more kids died due to alcohol related incidents at UC Boulder over the past ten years. Interesting fact.

//

435 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:36:05am

re: #415 Killgore Trout

"Some People Push Back": On the Justice of Roosting Chickens

He's a total shitbag. Check this out...quoted from a Denver Post interview in 1987:

...What a long strange trip it's been, the Grateful Dead observed. Ward Churchill, a guy who was decorated in Vietnam and came back and taught Bomb-Making 101 to the Weather Underground, a dedicated American Indian Movement activist, Ward Churchill...a university administrator?

"I'm one of them," he says with a grin.

...Churchill went back to Illinois - "I had my little medals, I went back to my tractor factory" - and started hanging out in Chicago at the national office of the leftist Students for a Democrativ Society, where he ran into Bernadine Dohrn, an attractive leader of the Weather Underground, a radical group that favored the bombings of buildings and confrontations with police in their fight against racism, the Vietnam War and the ruling class.

But the Weather Underground knew more about Marxism than about bombs. Churchill briefly taught the Weathermen and Weatherwomen how to make bombs and how to fire weapons - "which end does the bullet go, what are the ingredients, how do you time the damned thing."

Then three of the radicals accidentally blew themselves up in a New York brownstone, and Churchill decided that he had had enough.

436 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:36:08am

Morning all! Here for a very short while. Taking Mom to lunch in a few.

How is everyone this *gag* Monday morning?

I'm on my 2nd cuppa.

437 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:37:01am

re: #436 ggt

Morning all! Here for a very short while. Taking Mom to lunch in a few.

How is everyone this *gag* Monday morning?

I'm on my 2nd cuppa.

Image: funny-cat-pictures-or-sai-nuffin-at-awl.jpg

438 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:37:16am

re: #424 A Mom Anon

You should be able to find it online.

I actually am one of the few people in these conversations who have read a couple of his books. A Little Matter of Genocide and Pacifism as Pathology. The first is about the elimination of American Indians from Columbus forward. The second is about peace movements and he takes the side that they aren't effective,because they follow the rules of the government that are the cause the issues being protested. Don't agree with the guy,hate that he's been found to be a fraud about some stuff,but don't think he totally deserves to be entirely written off over one essay that most people have never read.

Should a college professor be fired because of their political opinions,as long as they do the job they were hired to do and aren't steering their students away from factual information?

Never a good idea to call a Liberty Sausage a Frankfurter.

439 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:38:30am

re: #435 NJDhockeyfan

How about that Soviet Union?
;)

440 Kragar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:42:08am

Palin: "How does John Kerry know my name?"

Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R) responded to Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) on Thursday, moments after the Democrat invoked her in a jab at GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney during his Democratic National Convention speech.

“I think he diminished himself by even mentioning my name," Palin said in an interview on Fox Business Network. "How does he even know my name? I mean aren’t these guys supposed to be these big wig elites who don’t waste their time on the little people like me"

Sarah Palin, one of the little people who was the GOP VP nominee.

441 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:42:55am

re: #440 Kragar

Palin: "How does John Kerry know my name?"

Sarah Palin, one of the little people who was the GOP VP nominee.

Pure comedy.

442 Kragar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:44:05am

re: #441 Varek Raith

Pure comedy.

HE'S A SORCERER!!!

443 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:44:10am

WTF?!?!

Fake ad for 'Mengele' weight pills causes furor

Irony and the Holocaust is a combination usually best avoided. If one needed any proof it came from Estonia on Monday.

Jewish groups expressed outrage after a newspaper in Estonia published a fake ad that they said disrespected victims of the Holocaust.

The Eesti Ekspress, a popular daily in the Baltic nation, ran a piece in its satirical pages that used notorious war criminal Josef Mengele and the Nazi concentration camp Buchenwald to sell weight-loss pills.

"One, two, three: Dr. Mengele’s diet pills work miracles on you," it read. "There were no fatties in Buchenwald."

Local members of the small Jewish community lambasted the publication saying it was an example of the country's "major problems with moral and ethical values."

Efraim Zuroff, the Israel director for the Simon Wiesenthal Center, said it was a "sick attempt at humor."

444 erik_t  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:44:21am

re: #440 Kragar

Palin: "How does John Kerry know my name?"

Sarah Palin, one of the little people who was the GOP VP nominee.

Oh, Sarah, I dream of days gone by when I did not know your name.

445 dragonath  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:45:44am

re: #443 NJDhockeyfan

Dammit, isn't this like the second time this month Estonia's gotten in the news for something like this?

446 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:47:48am

Reply #50: Ward Churchill = discredited poser

447 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:48:36am

Ward Churchill is a hemorrhoid.
-- Democratic Underground 2007

448 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:50:11am

re: #447 Gus

Ward Churchill is a hemorrhoid.
-- Democratic Underground 2007

I hate people who co-opt the suffering and discrimination of an entirely different people for their own benefit.

Well, not hate. Some word that implies I find them an irritation, but that isn't quite so severe.

449 GunstarGreen  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:50:35am

Having now read through the full text of Churchill's essay, I can see some grounds for canning him on the basis of the extraordinarily aggressive language he uses for attack people. The sentiment would have been fine on its own, but the direct Nazi comparison and a lot of the personal insults he hurled at Albright are pretty unprofessional. He'd have been better to conduct it with a little more class.

450 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:50:43am

re: #444 erik_t

Oh, Sarah, I dream of days gone by when I did not know your name.

You, me, and about 300 million other people in this country.

451 Kragar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:50:53am

Bryan Fischer On The Sidelines At 2012 Values Voter Summit

One year ago, Mitt Romney took the stage at the Values Voter Summit and lit into Bryan Fischer for his history of anti-Mormon rhetoric. Now, Romney is at the top of the GOP ticket, and Fischer will be on the sidelines for the first time in three years as the confab convenes in Washington D.C. this weekend.

Fischer’s absence from the line-up is also notable in the wake of the Todd Akin controversy. Fischer stepped forward to defend Akin (he even said Republicans’ abandonment of Akin was like a “forcible assault”) even as Romney called on him to withdraw from the Senate race.

Fischer downplayed his absence in an email to TPM, noting that he will still attend the event and broadcast his radio show, “Focal Point,” live.

452 aagcobb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:51:27am

re: #433 Lidane

Has anyone told these morons that the Soviet Union dissolved decades ago and that the Cold War is over?

Its a commie plot to trick us!

453 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:51:35am

re: #448 Mostly sane, most of the time.

I hate people who co-opt the suffering and discrimination of an entirely different people for their own benefit.

Well, not hate. Some word that implies I find them an irritation, but that isn't quite so severe.

Yeah. I was just thinking back about how many people I know on the left that despise Mr. Churchill. The first words that crossed my mind was "Ward Churchill is a poser." Amongst other things.

454 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:52:07am

WOLVERINES!!1!!11

455 A Mom Anon  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:52:25am

re: #438 Decatur Deb

True. I only began reading Churchill as part of a project I embarked on about 10 yrs ago about native peoples in the US and to a lesser degree Canada and Mexico. I must have read 100 books about life on reservations and how they came to be. Read alot of Charles Eastman too,everything our library had,etc,etc. There's alot of information out there,some of it glossed over,some of it brutal.I read stuff and found pictures that made me lose sleep at night. Our family sponsored a family with 3 kids on Pine Ridge(all the kids are adults now,all have left the rez for school,2 plan to go back and work to make life better there)and it was heartbreaking,the parents are alcoholics,etc,etc.

456 Kragar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:52:44am

re: #454 Varek Raith

WOLVERINES!!1!!11

WULBERHEEENS!!!!

457 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:52:50am

Breaking! //

458 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:53:12am

re: #453 Gus

Yeah. I was just thinking back about how many people I know on the left that despise Mr. Churchill. The first words that crossed my mind was "Ward Churchill is a poser." Amongst other things.

I cannnot stand even the sound of his name, after the much circulated comments he made after 911. The emotional outrage I felt at the time hasn't left me.

459 aagcobb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:53:39am

re: #454 Varek Raith

WOLVERINES!!1!!11

I find it really funny that the remake planned to replace the Soviets and Cubans with Chinese, then when they realized that they have to be able to show this movie in China, converted the invaders into North Koreans.

460 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:53:54am

re: #457 Gus

Breaking! //

[Embedded content]

No, it's, hopefully, the beginning of the end of the Christian Taliban.

461 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:54:20am

re: #457 Gus

Breaking! //

[Embedded content]

Just in case you didn't already have a reason to vote for Obama this year.

462 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:54:27am

re: #457 Gus

Breaking! //

[Embedded content]

Shifting Demographics; How do they fucking work?

463 Kragar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:54:28am

re: #457 Gus

Breaking! //

[Embedded content]

Promise?

464 aagcobb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:54:32am

re: #457 Gus

Breaking! //

[Embedded content]

Is the bloated one predicting the "Dear Leader" will ban the GOP?

465 Kragar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:55:40am

re: #459 aagcobb

I find it really funny that the remake planned to replace the Soviets and Cubans with Chinese, then when they realized that they have to be able to show this movie in China, converted the invaders into North Koreans.

Why not go with the Somali pirates instead? That would be just as believable.

466 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:56:07am

It's just satire!

//

467 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:56:07am

re: #465 Kragar

Why not go with the Somali pirates instead? That would be just as believable.

MiG 21s vs F-22.
FIGHT!
...
..
.

468 dragonath  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:56:31am

Romney is going to be eaten alive if he loses.

Braaaaaaaainss.....

469 erik_t  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:56:33am

re: #458 ggt

I cannnot stand even the sound of his name, after the much circulated comments he made after 911. The emotional outrage I felt at the time hasn't left me.

I've never heard of him. He sounds like a tool.

470 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:56:36am

re: #467 Varek Raith

MiG 21s vs F-22.
FIGHT!
...
..
.

They're that advanced?

//

471 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:56:42am

re: #455 A Mom Anon

True. I only began reading Churchill as part of a project I embarked on about 10 yrs ago about native peoples in the US and to a lesser degree Canada and Mexico. I must have read 100 books about life on reservations and how they came to be. Read alot of Charles Eastman too,everything our library had,etc,etc. There's alot of information out there,some of it glossed over,some of it brutal.I read stuff and found pictures that made me lose sleep at night. Our family sponsored a family with 3 kids on Pine Ridge(all the kids are adults now,all have left the rez for school,2 plan to go back and work to make life better there)and it was heartbreaking,the parents are alcoholics,etc,etc.

Did you know that Nike had to come out with a special shoe for Native Americans because their feet are wider than normal, and normal athletic shoes didn't fit.

472 makeitstop  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:56:45am

re: #457 Gus

Breaking! //

[Embedded content]

The Republican party has been digging its own grave for 30 years. If they don't clean house of the nutjobs like the Dems did after McGovern, they might as well just jump in and let the Tea Party bury them completely.

It amazes me that they were crowing about a permanent Repub majority two election cycles ago. The party has fallen apart in spectacular fashion.

473 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:57:12am

re: #436 ggt

Morning all! Here for a very short while. Taking Mom to lunch in a few.

How is everyone this *gag* Monday morning?

I'm on my 2nd cuppa.

Off today to recover from my week-long vacation. On my 2nd cup of tea and almost caught up with ignoring work-related emails.

474 Kronocide  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:57:23am

re: #458 ggt

I cannnot stand even the sound of his name, after the much circulated comments he made after 911. The emotional outrage I felt at the time hasn't left me.

That's the point bringing him up again today.

475 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:57:26am

re: #469 erik_t

I've never heard of him. He sounds like a tool.

google him.

476 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:58:03am

byeeeeeee!

bbl

477 erik_t  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:58:18am

re: #475 ggt

google him.

I won't do him the honor. He can go rant in a shack for all I care.

478 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:58:22am

re: #470 Gus

They're that advanced?

//

Heh.
They have some MiG 23s and a handful of 29s.
Mostly 21s and SU7s

479 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:59:36am

re: #470 Gus

They have some EMP type device, that shut down US defense systems and made the invasion easy. It's a plot trick far more implausible than the Cylons using Six to disable the Colonial Fleet by using their own networked software against them - a backdoor to shutdown.

Then again, in a few years time, if the US military is as network dependent as they would like to be, such a cyber attack would have a similar effect. That's why quantum communications systems research is critical.

480 Lidane  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 9:59:59am

re: #460 ggt

No, it's, hopefully, the beginning of the end of the Christian Taliban.

We should be so lucky.

I suspect that Rush means that an Obama victory will be the end of the GOP establishment and that the wingnuts will exert even more control than they have now. After all, if Mitt loses it's because he's not conservative enough. Or something.

481 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:00:24am

re: #478 Varek Raith

Heh.
They have some MiG 23s and a handful of 29s.
Mostly 21s and SU7s

As long as the ejection seat and parachute works...

//

482 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:00:38am

The other irritation is people who are always loudly screaming about suffering and discrimination--but only for those groups that they belong to.

If you can't at least sometimes see discrimination or suffering that isn't yours, personally, you do not make my list as a compassionate person.

Especially if your life was a pretty comfortable, safe one.

(I'm pretty cranky this morning, aren't I? And, no, I don't need coffee. Speaking from my experience with Excedrin, I get worse when I've had caffeine.)

483 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:01:04am

re: #460 ggt

No, it's, hopefully, the beginning of the end of the Christian Taliban.

The Christian Taliban is international. "Kill the gays" bills, supporting preachers that hunt child witches and exorcise them in Africa. In India, encouraging converts to bully and belittle Hindus and desecrate village temples.

484 Kragar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:01:13am

re: #478 Varek Raith

Heh.
They have some MiG 23s and a handful of 29s.
Mostly 21s and SU7s

So the South Korean military somehow missed the complete disappearance of the North Koreans on their border?

The very concept for the movie confuses me.

485 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:01:57am

re: #484 Kragar

So the South Korean military somehow missed the complete disappearance of the North Koreans on their border?

The very concept for the movie confuses me.

And everyone missed the armada sailing across the Pacific.

486 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:02:47am

re: #484 Kragar

So the South Korean military somehow missed the complete disappearance of the North Koreans on their border?

The very concept for the movie confuses me.

The concept is very simple. Pick conservative bugaboo, make movie about it, PROFIT!

In this case it's just a variation of the foreign/alien invasion scenario that will be driven off by plucky Americans (in some form).

487 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:03:31am

re: #486 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

The concept is very simple. Pick conservative bugaboo, make movie about it, PROFIT!

In this case it's just a variation of the foreign/alien invasion scenario that will be driven off by plucky Americans (in some form).

They should've gone with commie aliens.
Far more plausible.

488 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:03:59am

re: #487 Varek Raith

They should've gone with commie aliens.
Far more plausible.

Or have aliens to whom water is like acid land in Brazil and go walking around...

489 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:04:24am

re: #488 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Or have aliens to whom water is like acid land in Brazil and go walking around...

Signs.
WTF.

Lol.

490 Kragar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:04:34am

re: #485 Varek Raith

And everyone missed the armada sailing across the Pacific.

Population of North Korea: 24 million
Population of United States: 311 million

Did Chun train the entire NK army to fight like Remo Williams?

491 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:04:53am

re: #488 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Or have aliens to whom water is like acid land in Brazil and go walking around...

Please do not confuse me with facts.

//

492 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:05:22am

re: #490 Kragar

Population of North Korea: 24 million
Population of United States: 311 million

Did Chun train the entire NK army to fight like Remo Williams?

Sounds almost lemming-like, doesn't it?

493 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:05:38am

re: #469 erik_t

I've never heard of him. He sounds like a tool.

Back in the early days after 9/11, that's exactly what he was: specifically, he was a brush used by some in the pro-war camp to tar the opposition. If you were a liberal, or even just wary of the rush to war, then you were just like Ward Churchill. That was really the only relevance he ever had.

494 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:05:40am

Water is fatal to us.
I know!
Let's invade Earth!

495 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:06:15am

re: #494 Varek Raith

Water is fatal to us.
I know!
Let's invade Earth!

"In Aliens We Trust"

496 Kragar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:06:30am

re: #494 Varek Raith

We should go invade a lava planet and go around in tank tops and shorts.

497 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:07:02am

re: #486 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Hang on that movie was about a more credible enemy, the Chinese. they spent millions of borrowed dollars to flip the bad guys to Koreans. this because Hollywood does not want to annoy China, the big new customer and source of funding.

498 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:07:06am

re: #496 Kragar

We should go invade a lava planet and go around in tank tops and shorts.

Or counter-invade those aliens who live on/in the Sun. ;)

We can land at night!
//

499 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:07:55am

re: #497 Daniel Ballard

Hang on that movie was about a more credible enemy, the Chinese. they spent millions of borrowed dollars to flip the bad guys to Koreans. this because Hollywood does not want to annoy China, the big new customer and source of funding.

I thought the Chinese had already bought us, like the Japanese did in the 80s.
//

500 aagcobb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:07:56am

Its amazing how completely lacking in self-awareness wingnuts can be. On a conservative website it was explained to me that the Democrats are the party of racism and the GOP is the party of racial justice. When I asked how then it was possible that african-americans voted for racists who hate them, I was told african-americans are a bunch of lazy cattle who just want a handout instead of a job.

501 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:08:02am

re: #455 A Mom Anon

True. I only began reading Churchill as part of a project I embarked on about 10 yrs ago about native peoples in the US and to a lesser degree Canada and Mexico. I must have read 100 books about life on reservations and how they came to be. Read alot of Charles Eastman too,everything our library had,etc,etc. There's alot of information out there,some of it glossed over,some of it brutal.I read stuff and found pictures that made me lose sleep at night. Our family sponsored a family with 3 kids on Pine Ridge(all the kids are adults now,all have left the rez for school,2 plan to go back and work to make life better there)and it was heartbreaking,the parents are alcoholics,etc,etc.

I really love the tribes that have casinos and have been using the money wisely. I grew knowing about the Lac Courte Oreilles reservation and it wasn't very pretty in those days. Sadder still was the fact that it was good, even then, by the standards of Indian Country.

It's still far from perfect, but they have a radio station, good schools to include a community college, a number of tribe owned bushiness, and have invested heavily in infrastructure recently laying water & sewer through the whole of the reservation. The houses look like houses rather than shacks and the standard of living is first world rather than something the third world would pity. This is no small change and yet they still have so far to go because of the damage done, intentionally and otherwise, over the past several centuries.

At least the idiots wasting their money at the casino's helps them rebuild from that.

502 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:08:43am

re: #498 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Or counter-invade those aliens who live on/in the Sun. ;)

We can land at night!
//

Don't forget the sunscreen!
SPF - OMGWTFBBQ

503 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:09:29am

Oy. The Gary Johnson effect in New Mexico

Obama 45%
Romney 40%
Johnson 7%

+/- 3.8%

504 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:09:32am

re: #500 aagcobb

Its amazing how completely lacking in self-awareness wingnuts can be. On a conservative website it was explained to me that the Democrats are the party of racism and the GOP is the party of racial justice. When I asked how then it was possible that african-americans voted for racists who hate them, I was told african-americans are a bunch of lazy cattle who just want a handout instead of a job.

Did you see the comment on the thread about the guy hugging Obama about how the office of President used to have some default respect shown to it?

505 Kragar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:09:44am

Santorum: By 'Pursuit of Happiness,' The Founders Meant 'To Pursue God's Will'

Rick Santorum spoke at the iPledge Sunday prayer gathering where he explained to the audience that our Founding Fathers knew that our right came from God and that is why they explicitly protects our rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

But by "happiness," Santorum declared, the Founders didn't mean "enjoyment" but rather doing what God has commanded and serving His will:

Dammit Founders, couldn't you just have said that? Thank God we have people like Santorum and Barton to clean up the mess the Founding Fathers left us.
///

506 aagcobb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:09:53am

re: #497 Daniel Ballard

Hang on that movie was about a more credible enemy, the Chinese. they spent millions of borrowed dollars to flip the bad guys to Koreans. this because Hollywood does not want to annoy China, the big new customer and source of funding.

That was what was so funny about it. It wasn't until after they made the movie that they realized what an obvious blunder they made.

507 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:11:19am

re: #505 Kragar

Santorum: By 'Pursuit of Happiness,' The Founders Meant 'To Pursue God's Will'

Dammit Founders, couldn't you just have said that? Thank God we have people like Santorum and Barton to clean up the mess the Founding Fathers left us.
///

Dear Rick Santorum, please shut the fuck up. kthxbye.

508 makeitstop  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:12:08am

re: #500 aagcobb

Its amazing how completely lacking in self-awareness wingnuts can be. On a conservative website it was explained to me that the Democrats are the party of racism and the GOP is the party of racial justice. When I asked how then it was possible that african-americans voted for racists who hate them, I was told african-americans are a bunch of lazy cattle who just want a handout instead of a job.

I was told on another forum that black people had been 'duped' into voting for Democrats. A couple of black guys on the forum really went at the guy, but he didn't waver.

They truly believe that black people aren't capable of making informed decisions on their own - and then they wonder aloud why Romney has zero support from blacks.

509 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:12:14am

Derp.

510 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:12:41am

re: #505 Kragar

Santorum: By 'Pursuit of Happiness,' The Founders Meant 'To Pursue God's Will'

Dammit Founders, couldn't you just have said that? Thank God we have people like Santorum and Barton to clean up the mess the Founding Fathers left us.
///

Youtube Video
511 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:14:14am

re: #505 Kragar

Santorum: By 'Pursuit of Happiness,' The Founders Meant 'To Pursue God's Will'

Dammit Founders, couldn't you just have said that? Thank God we have people like Santorum and Barton to clean up the mess the Founding Fathers left us.
///

Barton and Santorum have the decoder ring.

512 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:14:23am

Another day of those loud mouthed angry atheists... no wait! They're not atheists?

//

513 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:15:01am

Every single day some thumper nut is saying something stupid. Every single day. And more than once a day.

514 erik_t  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:18:17am

Negative: did not see mold before making sandwich this morning.
Positive: saw mold before eating sandwich.

515 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:20:14am

The internet. Ur doin it wrong.

516 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:20:53am

re: #514 erik_t

Negative: did not see mold before making sandwich this morning.
Positive: saw mold before eating sandwich.

But did you eat it anyway?

517 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:21:50am

re: #490 Kragar

Population of North Korea: 24 million
Population of United States: 311 million

Did Chun train the entire NK army to fight like Remo Williams?

Can guarantee that even S.Koreans can't get their heads around that. Wife taught English to a group of upscale wives. When she described the size difference between our countries they called her a liar in the most regretfully polite way possible.

518 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:23:03am

Patriots.

//

519 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:23:10am

re: #502 Varek Raith

Don't forget the sunscreen!
SPF - OMGWTFBBQ

You don't need it if you land on the sun at night...sheesh.

520 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:23:50am

Religion has nothing to do with it.

//

521 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:25:51am

Asked For Specific Tax Loopholes Romney Will Close, Adviser Says ‘Energy Independence’

When asked how I would pay this month's rent I said, "Yosemite Sam."

522 Targetpractice  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:26:48am

re: #490 Kragar

Population of North Korea: 24 million
Population of United States: 311 million

Did Chun train the entire NK army to fight like Remo Williams?

Nah, it's the usual Hollywood ass-pull, namely Norks got their hands on some super powerful device that can shut down US weapons more advanced than a rifle, allowing them to rolls in and stomp us.

Should have gone with a low-orbit nuke burst to wipe out the US with an EMP, that at least would have been more believable.

523 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:26:52am

re: #521 Varek Raith

Asked For Specific Tax Loopholes Romney Will Close, Adviser Says ‘Energy Independence’

When asked how I would pay this month's rent I said, "Yosemite Sam."

Wife is laughing in the kitchen.

524 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:27:51am

re: #523 Decatur Deb

Wife is laughing in the kitchen.

Ooh, can I play? Someone ask me a question.

525 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:29:30am

re: #524 Obdicut

Ooh, can I play? Someone ask me a question.

How much is taupe?

526 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:29:47am

re: #521 Varek Raith

Asked For Specific Tax Loopholes Romney Will Close, Adviser Says ‘Energy Independence’

When asked how I would pay this month's rent I said, "Yosemite Sam."

That might work. He could intimidate the hell out of a rent collector.

527 HappyWarrior  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:30:11am

re: #521 Varek Raith

Asked For Specific Tax Loopholes Romney Will Close, Adviser Says ‘Energy Independence’

When asked how I would pay this month's rent I said, "Yosemite Sam."

This campaign looks like more of a clusterfuck every day.

528 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:30:19am

The Taliban are talking ceasefire...

Taliban 'prepared to work with US on security in Afghanistan'

The Taliban is prepared to completely disown al-Qaeda, allow the US to retain several military bases in Afghanistan and agree a ceasefire deal to end its 11 year conflict with Nato, a major report released on Monday discloses.

And to show how serious they are they announce that they are going after Prince Harry...

Afghan Taliban Threaten to Kidnap and Kill Prince Harry

KABUL (Reuters) - The Afghan Taliban said on Monday they were doing everything in their power to try to kidnap or kill Britain's Prince Harry, who arrived in Afghanistan last week to fly attack helicopters.

..."We are using all our strength to get rid of him, either by killing or kidnapping," Zabihullah Mujahid, a Taliban spokesman, told Reuters by phone from an undisclosed location.

"We have informed our commanders in Helmand to do whatever they can to eliminate him," Mujahid added, declining to go into detail on what he called the "Harry operations".

529 Targetpractice  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:30:44am

re: #524 Obdicut

Ooh, can I play? Someone ask me a question.

What does God need with a starship?

/

530 dragonfire1981  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:30:46am

Church allegedly refuses to sell Mass. Couple a home because they don't want gay weddings there

A gay couple from Massachusetts has sued the Roman Catholic Diocese of Worcester for allegedly refusing to sell them a mansion because church officials were concerned they would host gay weddings at the site.

James Fairbanks and Alain Beret filed their discrimination suit Monday in Worcester Superior Court.

They allege that they were in negotiations to buy Oakhurst, a former retreat center in Northbridge, when church officials suddenly pulled out.

They say they inadvertently received an email from the chancellor of the diocese to the church’s broker saying the reason was because of the “potentiality of gay marriages” at the home.

Chancellor Thomas Sullivan says the church dropped out of negotiations because of concerns about Fairbanks’ and Beret’s ability to finance the purchase.

531 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:30:55am

re: #525 Decatur Deb

How much is taupe?

Strong foreign policy and no more apologies.

532 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:31:22am

re: #529 Targetpractice

What does God need with a starship?

/

Keeping our borders secure.

533 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:32:29am

re: #531 Obdicut

Strong foreign policy and no more apologies.

Not to mention tax cuts for the job-creators. Or is that last week'syesterday's position?

534 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:33:15am

re: #533 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Moving forwards to unshackle industry.

535 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:33:35am

Sniff. Those poor doctors. Must be really hard for them to pay back their student loans.

//

536 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:33:50am

re: #534 Obdicut

Moving forwards to unshackle industry.

Ooh. You said "shackle".

//

537 makeitstop  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:34:11am

re: #515 darthstar

The internet. Ur doin it wrong.

[Embedded content]

That's just friggin' embarrassing. Made me laugh, though.

538 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:34:42am

re: #535 Gus

Note the vast disparities, too, caused by the fee-for-service compensation model. Someone who does a great job of preventative care gets compensated far less than someone who does acute care.

539 Targetpractice  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:35:02am

re: #534 Obdicut

Moving forwards to unshackle industry.

Yeah, that's one of my favorites. "Unshackle the free market" or so forth. Not only is that hilarious in light of companies like GE, who effectively zeroed out their income taxes for last year. But deregulation is always great right up until we get something like the BP spill, when suddenly the scream is "Where was the government?!"

540 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:35:12am

re: #536 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Ooh. You said "shackle".

//

And "forward". RINO.

541 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:35:17am

re: #504 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

Did you see the comment on the thread about the guy hugging Obama about how the office of President used to have some default respect shown to it?

What's wrong with a little hug between friends. Maybe he should have lip locked on him?

542 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:37:14am

re: #535 Gus

Sniff. Those poor doctors. Must be really hard for them to pay back their student loans.

//

Okay, fine, you find some bright young students who will agree to 12 years of high education for the promise of $70,000 a year when they're all done.

543 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:37:15am

re: #538 Obdicut

Note the vast disparities, too, caused by the fee-for-service compensation model. Someone who does a great job of preventative care gets compensated far less than someone who does acute care.

With surgeons still making the most. Makes sense.

544 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:37:53am

Romney campaign out-campaigning John McCain!

Romney's Ground Game: During last weekend’s “Super Saturday,” we crossed the 20 million volunteer voter contact threshold. Also, the Romney campaign knocked on more doors last week than in any week during the 2008 campaign. More than 55,000 volunteers have knocked doors or made phone calls for Victory this year and that number is growing by the week. And volunteers have collected person-to-person identification information on nearly 1.7 million swing voters in battleground states thus far. And the numbers are even more startling when one looks at individual states. For instance, in Ohio alone, five times more phone calls and 28 times more door knocks have been made than at this time in 2008. This past Saturday, more than 100,000 doors were knocked on by Victory volunteers in the Buckeye State. And in Wisconsin, five times more phone calls and 72 times more door knocks have been made than at this time in 2008. And the list goes on and on.

McCain/Palin must be quaking in their boots.

545 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:38:59am

re: #542 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Okay, fine, you find some bright young students who will agree to 12 years of high education for the promise of $70,000 a year when they're all done.

They know what they're getting into and by the time they pass that short hump of a "tragic" starting salary of 70K in some cases they'll soon fly past into make 100s of thousands per year.

547 erik_t  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:39:52am

re: #544 darthstar

McCain/Palin must be quaking in their boots.

Who?

/

548 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:40:50am

re: #545 Gus

They know what they're getting into and by the time they pass that short hump of a "tragic" starting salary of 70K in some cases they'll soon fly past into make 100s of thousands per year.

Why would a young man or woman who could do four years of school, get out as an engineer and make 70,000 pretty quickly do 12 for the same amount? These are people who can do math.

549 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:41:09am

re: #546 NJDhockeyfan

Jay-Z Rips Into Occupy Wall Street For Being Against Rich Entrepreneurs And Free Enterprise

So who do I back in this fight?

Nah. Scroom all.

550 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:41:35am

re: #525 Decatur Deb

How much is taupe?

Ohhhh, I know, I know. Marianas Trench

[I'll take my winnings in singles please]

551 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:42:40am

re: #550 RayFerd

Ohhhh, I know, I know. Marianas Trench

[I'll take my winnings in singles please]

The correct answer is always Teleprompter.

552 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:42:50am

re: #550 RayFerd

Ohhhh, I know, I know. Marianas Trench

[I'll take my winnings in singles please]

Off to the pole-art bars are we?

553 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:43:05am

re: #548 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Why would a young man or woman who could do four years of school, get out as an engineer and make 70,000 pretty quickly do 12 for the same amount? These are people who can do math.

Depends on the engineering field. Civil starts at around 50K with chemical going up to 90.

554 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:43:28am

re: #550 RayFerd

Ohhhh, I know, I know. Marianas Trench

[I'll take my winnings in singles please]

You're going to need to wear a bigger thong.

555 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:43:35am

re: #551 The Ghost of a Flea

Gallifreyans always know the answer before you ask it. /

556 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:43:51am

I need my own support group. I too have a lot of grievances.

//

557 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:43:59am

re: #553 Gus

Depends on the engineering field. Civil starts at around 50K with chemical going up to 90.

Yes, but NOBODY is going through residency without some powerful incentive to do so.

558 Big Steve  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:44:05am

re: #553 Gus

Depends on the engineering field. Civil starts at around 50K with chemical going up to 90.

whoo hooo for us chemical engineers!

559 erik_t  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:44:18am

re: #548 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Why would a young man or woman who could do four years of school, get out as an engineer and make 70,000 pretty quickly do 12 for the same amount? These are people who can do math.

Apparently too many of them do.

560 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:45:16am

Another crisis. America loves them a crisis and everyone's a victim.

561 dragonfire1981  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:45:20am

re: #538 Obdicut

Note the vast disparities, too, caused by the fee-for-service compensation model. Someone who does a great job of preventative care gets compensated far less than someone who does acute care.

I read in a book awhile back that in Japan, if you get sick, your doctor does NOT get paid because he's supposed to keep you healthy and if you're not healthy, he's not doing his job so no money for him (until you get well again that is).

I'm sure there are specific rules and regulations with regards to that (i.e. exemptions for practically unavoidable conditions like a common cold), but still an interesting concept regardless.

562 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:46:05am
563 Big Steve  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:46:37am

re: #546 NJDhockeyfan

Jay-Z Rips Into Occupy Wall Street For Being Against Rich Entrepreneurs And Free Enterprise

and I might add......Texas NFL teams are 2-0!

564 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:47:08am

1st world problems.

565 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:47:36am

re: #561 dragonfire1981

I read in a book awhile back that in Japan, if you get sick, your doctor does NOT get paid because he's supposed to keep you healthy and if you're not healthy, he's not doing his job so no money for him (until you get well again that is).

I'm sure there are specific rules and regulations with regards to that (i.e. exemptions for practically unavoidable conditions like a common cold), but still an interesting concept regardless.

So...does he have the right to show up and take away your cigarettes?

566 Eventual Carrion  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:47:48am

re: #552 Decatur Deb

Off to the pole-art bars are we?

I support unwed mother. Aww come on, I just help them get their start.
- Steve Martin

567 Hercules Grytpype-Thynne  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:47:55am

re: #550 RayFerd

Ohhhh, I know, I know. Marianas Trench

[I'll take my winnings in singles please]

Plenty of singles here.

568 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:48:36am

re: #565 Mostly sane, most of the time.

So...does he have the right to show up and take away your cigarettes?

Samurai Surgeon general.

569 erik_t  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:49:08am

Just a random factoid I'll throw out there... if we guesstimate from Gus's link that the average physician salary is about $350k/yr, and there are something like 660,000 doctors in the US, and total health care spending is on the order of $2.5 trillion, then about 9% of our total health care spending is going to physician salaries (probably more like 15% if you include benefits and such).

570 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:49:18am
571 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:49:44am

re: #569 erik_t

Just a random factoid I'll throw out there... if we guesstimate from Gus's link that the average physician salary is about $350k/yr, and there are something like 660,000 doctors in the US, and total health care spending is on the order of $2.5 trillion, then about 9% of our total health care spending is going to physician salaries (probably more like 15% if you include benefits and such).

Sounds sustainable.

//

572 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:50:12am

re: #569 erik_t

Just a random factoid I'll throw out there... if we guesstimate from Gus's link that the average physician salary is about $350k/yr, and there are something like 660,000 doctors in the US, and total health care spending is on the order of $2.5 trillion, then about 9% of our total health care spending is going to physician salaries (probably more like 15% if you include benefits and such).

That leaves hospital fees, rent on the offices, nurses' fees, medicine, medical researchers, supplies, and all the front and back office people.

573 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:51:01am

re: #572 Mostly sane, most of the time.

That leaves hospital fees, rent on the offices, nurses' fees, medicine, medical researchers, supplies, and all the front and back office people.

Missed a big one--malpractice insurance.

574 erik_t  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:52:08am

I'm actually unsure whether 9% seems high or low. Either way I'd rather focus on the morbid fascination with prolonging body death at the cost of quality of living.

575 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:52:23am

re: #573 Decatur Deb

Missed a big one--malpractice insurance.

Oh, yes. And the stickers. Don't forget the stickers. (After I finished razor blading the windows of the van, "we" aren't allowed to get any anymore.)

576 The Ghost of a Flea  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:52:48am

re: #568 Decatur Deb

Samurai Surgeon general.

...that's just what the Ninja Surgeon General wants you to think.

577 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:53:11am

Soylent Green is the solution!

//

578 Big Steve  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:53:39am

re: #574 erik_t

I'm actually unsure whether 9% seems high or low. Either way I'd rather focus on the morbid fascination with prolonging body death at the cost of quality of living.

I once heard (unattributed) that half of the medical costs you will incur in your life are racked up in your last two weeks of life.

579 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:54:05am

Don't worry about it. Everything's under control in Washington.

580 erik_t  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 10:56:53am

re: #578 Big Steve

I once heard (unattributed) that half of the medical costs you will incur in your life are racked up in your last two weeks of life.

Whether it's 50% or 10%, it still seems kinda stupid doesn't it?

I'm solidly on Team Eskimo; of course this is very easy to say when a likely natural death is many decades away.

581 darthstar  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:00:28am

Okay...I finally looked up who Nicki Minaj was...apparently she's some sort of Country Western singer who sang a verse about voting for Mitt Romney.

582 Shropshire_Slasher  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:01:06am

re: #577 Gus
Can I get me some freedom fries with that?

583 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:01:30am

re: #542 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Okay, fine, you find some bright young students who will agree to 12 years of high education for the promise of $70,000 a year when they're all done.

We do that with teachers.
/half

584 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:03:07am

re: #548 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Why would a young man or woman who could do four years of school, get out as an engineer and make 70,000 pretty quickly do 12 for the same amount? These are people who can do math.

That argument only works if a person is solely interested in making money and doesn't care how they do it.

585 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:03:26am

Average starting salary for a residency position is 120K and not 70K.

586 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:04:10am

My "residency" was $5.67/hour doing land survey work. Sniff. Those poor, poor doctors.

587 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:06:32am

re: #583 Sionainn

We do that with teachers.
/half

...and actually that $70,000 is the top end of the salary scale, not the starting salary.

588 Decatur Deb  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:06:51am

re: #583 Sionainn

We do that with teachers.
/half

No sarc. Alabama teachers, expected to work towards a Masters, start at 39K and average 49K. Our lawmakers think low pay is a biblical injunction:

[Link: www.google.com...]

589 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:07:15am

re: #586 Gus

My "residency" was $5.67/hour doing land survey work. Sniff. Those poor, poor doctors.

I didn't get paid at all for my half year of student teaching.

590 Obdicut  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:09:35am

re: #586 Gus

My "residency" was $5.67/hour doing land survey work. Sniff. Those poor, poor doctors.

I think some of the turmoil now comes because doctors who are recent graduates, or doctors-to-be in medical school, are having to learn about five times as much as doctors did twenty years ago-- but the way med schools teach, the way your career path goes, hasn't changed. The amount of work that the current generation has to do before they ever get to doctoring is staggering.

That doesn't mean that doctors are in any way undercompensated, but there are much easier ways to make money.

The real problem, for me, is the fee-for-service thingy. A doctor who successfully gets his patients to quit smoking, change their diets, and live healthier will make a few thousand dollars off of them in office visits. A doctor who takes out a cancerous lesion, amputates a limb lost due to diabetes, or does a gastric bypass will make tens of thousands of dollars.

In both cases, the physician provided the best care possible, astutely, and had great benefit for the patient, but we reward one-- arguably the easier path-- with much more money.

591 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:09:53am

re: #589 Sionainn

I didn't get paid at all for my half year of student teaching.

Yeah. Architecture also has that "intern" bologna too were upon they pay their starting "architect" without a license hourly wages which aren't too hot. Even after getting a license it's a flakey business because it's tied in with real estate. Booms and busts.

592 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:11:40am

re: #591 Gus

Yeah. Architecture also has that "intern" bologna too were upon they pay their starting "architect" without a license hourly wages which aren't too hot. Even after getting a license it's a flakey business because it's tied in with real estate. Booms and busts.

In fact, I had to pay for a semester's worth of credits for the privilege of working for free.

593 lawhawk  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:13:43am

re: #590 Obdicut

Why you hating on the cutters. /

594 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:14:28am

re: #592 Sionainn

In fact, I had to pay for a semester's worth of credits for the privilege of working for free.

The intern thing has turned into quite the scam during this recession. A lot of people are working for free these days.

595 Varek Raith  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:18:59am

re: #556 Gus

I need my own support group. I too have a lot of grievances.

//

Here's a blaster.
Room 203 is full of Ewoks.

596 Gus  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:20:07am

re: #595 Varek Raith

Here's a blaster.
Room 203 is full of Ewoks.

Those damn dirty Ewoks!

597 danarchy  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:21:24am

re: #583 Sionainn

We do that with teachers.
/half

I dated a teacher for a couple of years, I know how hard the work can be, but comparing getting a masters in education to PhD. in medicine is a bit silly.

Easiest college major

598 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:26:18am

re: #548 Mostly sane, most of the time.

Why would a young man or woman who could do four years of school, get out as an engineer and make 70,000 pretty quickly do 12 for the same amount? These are people who can do math.

It took me 20 years to break the 70K mark.

599 Sionainn  Mon, Sep 10, 2012 11:30:21am

re: #597 danarchy

I dated a teacher for a couple of years, I know how hard the work can be, but comparing getting a masters in education to PhD. in medicine is a bit silly.

Easiest college major

I'm talking Ph.D. or two master's to get to the top of the salary scale in my school district. I never said that teachers should make as much as physicians, but they most certainly deserve much more than what they currently earn.

My argument is why do we hold physicians up as more deserving than anyone else who gets a degree? People get degrees in various things based on what they want to do with their lives, not solely by how much money they are going to make (or at least normal people do).


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